Soldier mocked over loss of legs
Matthew Weston
Sapper Weston wants to stay in the Army
A soldier from Somerset who lost both legs and his right arm while serving in Afghanistan has been subjected to cruel taunts over his injuries.
Sapper Matthew Weston, 20, from Taunton, stepped on a bomb while on patrol in Helmand Province on 29 June.
While he was being treated at Selly Oak hospital in Birmingham his mother took him out shopping where they encountered a group of "boisterous" youths.
Rena Weston, 40, said: "They shouted he's lost something... like his legs.
Shooting team
Speaking from the family home Mrs Weston said: "They were laughing at what they thought was a very funny statement to make.
"We continued around the corner and I put my arms around Matthew and said, 'are you okay love?'
"He just went silent. Then he said, 'I suppose I had better get used to it for the rest of my life.'
"I don't think anyone, no matter what their disability, should be treated like that," said Mrs Weston.
Since the incident Sapper Weston has finished his treatment at Selly Oak hospital.
"He's determined to stay in the Army," said Mrs Weston.
"He has trialled with the 2012 Paralympics shooting team and he's going to receive coaching and possibly be in the team, which will be a great boost for Matthew.
"We have got no choice. We have got to get on with it."
It's sad someone serving their country gets treated like that.
You could try the "scared straight" approach. Just take group of chavs, put them in the worst prison you can find for a few days (or weeks, whatever gets the point across). Worked out well in California a few years ago.
I don't really think we need to treat them like heroes though. They chose their career how they want it and why are they more heroic than another man like a bin-man or street sweeper?
Of course, it is ridiculous to insult them unless they're doing something a-moral in going to war (which I am too uninformed to judge myself)
Soldier mocked over loss of legs
Matthew Weston
Sapper Weston wants to stay in the Army
A soldier from Somerset who lost both legs and his right arm while serving in Afghanistan has been subjected to cruel taunts over his injuries.
Sapper Matthew Weston, 20, from Taunton, stepped on a bomb while on patrol in Helmand Province on 29 June.
While he was being treated at Selly Oak hospital in Birmingham his mother took him out shopping where they encountered a group of "boisterous" youths.
Rena Weston, 40, said: "They shouted he's lost something... like his legs.
Shooting team
Speaking from the family home Mrs Weston said: "They were laughing at what they thought was a very funny statement to make.
"We continued around the corner and I put my arms around Matthew and said, 'are you okay love?'
"He just went silent. Then he said, 'I suppose I had better get used to it for the rest of my life.'
"I don't think anyone, no matter what their disability, should be treated like that," said Mrs Weston.
Since the incident Sapper Weston has finished his treatment at Selly Oak hospital.
"He's determined to stay in the Army," said Mrs Weston.
"He has trialled with the 2012 Paralympics shooting team and he's going to receive coaching and possibly be in the team, which will be a great boost for Matthew.
"We have got no choice. We have got to get on with it."
Did I miss a memo or something? Is this common treatment for vets over there, or are kids just getting THAT bad?
People who take the P!$$ out of people with disabilities and war veterans need to experience what their victims have gone through.
Those gakkers make me feel ashamed to call myself a countryman.
Sorry - very narked off by this (amongst other things) right now.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
paulguise wrote:It's sad someone serving their country gets treated like that.
You could try the "scared straight" approach. Just take group of chavs, put them in the worst prison you can find for a few days (or weeks, whatever gets the point across). Worked out well in California a few years ago.
Just a thought.
Cheers
Problem is - they just re-offend.
It really doesn't work.
Automatically Appended Next Post: GODDAMMIT I'M REALLY ANNOYED NOW!!!
Kids pulling that crap though should be publicly beaten. Just ridiculous.
Totally agree, this sort of behavior is disgusting
Mick A wrote:Due to good old Euro and British law the best you can do these days is tell a kid he's naughty. That's really going to teach them respect...
Mick
whoa whoa there sir! You can't say that in schools here anymore, I was on a teaching course. Now you just have to congraulate them when they're NOT naughty... 'cus that'll teach them a lesson!
Inbred scumbags making mocking comments at passers by are by no means uniquire to the UK. They exist evreywhere an go by many different names.
But yeah these little gits deserved a kicking. I'm actually rather suprised the Vet in this case did'nt respond by given them a good hiding. If he's seen action and wants to remain the Army (which I'm sure he should be allowed to do) then I'm sure he's faced worse than a couple of chavs.
SilverMK2 wrote:At least he is being treated in one of the best rehabilitation centres in the country. The unit at Birmingham is fantastic.
I can see it from my office window. Does anyone know if there's a link to that documentary they filmed there a few weeks ago? I missed it because of work hours at the time
Sadly this sort of thing is becoming more common, only yesterday the Sun (a British newspaper) published a photo of a drunken student pi$$ing over a war memorial, he has since been charged by the Police, but only after a raft of complaints.
The problem in the UK isn't with the Police, for the most part they do a good job, especialy when it comes to solving serious crime. The problem lies with a poor criminal justice system, not enough prison spaces and judges who are out of touch and unwilling to bring the full force of the law to bear.
In cases like this I would advocate a public whipping followed by a few weeks hard labour.
Ultrafool wrote:Kids a these days are big a holes, they really have no respect for anyone any more.
Better idea. Draft them. Send them to find land mines by walking. See how it feels.
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Blake wrote:I don't really think we need to treat them like heroes though. They chose their career how they want it and why are they more heroic than another man like a bin-man or street sweeper?
Of course, it is ridiculous to insult them unless they're doing something a-moral in going to war (which I am too uninformed to judge myself)
Um because the trash guy doesn't get his legs go off. Jeez don't be an absurd jerk.
Blake wrote:I don't really think we need to treat them like heroes though. They chose their career how they want it and why are they more heroic than another man like a bin-man or street sweeper?
Of course, it is ridiculous to insult them unless they're doing something a-moral in going to war (which I am too uninformed to judge myself)
Your efforts at trolling were not very successful.
Regardless of a soldiers intentions when joining up, they are volunteering to do a very dangerous job. By volunteering to put their lives in harms way, they are not only protecting our nation but they are also enabling civvies to enjoy thier lives without the risk of conscription.
Insulting anyone who is disabled is out of order, but to insult someone who has actively put their life on the line to protect the rights and freedoms we all enjoy is even more sickening. although I doubt the slack jaws in question knew he was a soldier.
Many people who read about these incidents say that those involved should be sent to the front lines themselves. As a former soldier myself, I would say that we wouldn't want them there.
squilverine wrote:
Many people who read about these incidents say that those involved should be sent to the front lines themselves. As a former soldier myself, I would say that we wouldn't want them there.
You're misinterpreting-we mean in front of the front line. I heard they also make excellent windshield protectors...
It's how things are starting to go over here. It's a cuddle state, try to give everyone what they want and not spank them because it will hurt them or their feelings. Oh human rights this and human rights that as well. This doesn't just apply to the sort of kids in question either, there are other groups I think that this applies to out of fear of being seen as intolerant, racist and so on.
If a puppy messes on the carpet, you teach it not to. The liberals and frankly idiots who have let this plague of delinquincy get too far should be shot and the kids in question treated like the puppy messing on the carpet.
This might sound cold, hateful and extreme, but growing up idiots like these made my existance intolerable, and they still do to so many all over the UK. Couple of weeks ago there was a news story about kids like this being the reason for a death and yet all through the torment the kids were untouchable.
It's disgusting. The government should be off their asses and sorting out domestic problems instead of looking abroad for things to put right.
Dont joke about that if my generation if the future your screwed.
we will just sit around all day and text insted of talking. im glad i didnt get into the whole cell phone craze.
squilverine wrote:
Many people who read about these incidents say that those involved should be sent to the front lines themselves. As a former soldier myself, I would say that we wouldn't want them there.
You're misinterpreting-we mean in front of the front line. I heard they also make excellent windshield protectors...
I wasn't specificaly refering to your earlier coment, but this has raised an interesting point, what other uses could we find for chavs?
Aside from mine field clearance, keeping Burberry in business and doing their level best to thwart the pro life campaigners arguments that all life is precious. What other uses can you guys come up with?
Meh, I'd like to claim american superiority in this matter, but we have just as many asshats insulting dead / wounded soldiers.
Remember that crazy religious group who was allowed to protest outside a marine's funeral last year? They had signs that said things like "God killed your son" and "thank god for dead soldiers"... and it wasn't just children, it was a whole freaking church there to insult the dead.
And it was ruled it was protected by the 1st ammendment. They should have all died.
squilverine wrote:
Many people who read about these incidents say that those involved should be sent to the front lines themselves. As a former soldier myself, I would say that we wouldn't want them there.
You're misinterpreting-we mean in front of the front line. I heard they also make excellent windshield protectors...
I wasn't specificaly refering to your earlier coment, but this has raised an interesting point, what other uses could we find for chavs?
Aside from mine field clearance, keeping Burberry in business and doing their level best to thwart the pro life campaigners arguments that all life is precious. What other uses can you guys come up with?
Road intersection crash barriers?
Live action wild animal entertainment? If its good enough for the ancient Romans, its good enough for me.
garret wrote:Is this happened in america those kids would be either
A:beaten to a pulp by the guy with no legs.
B run from the guy bet get exusted after 10 feet.
I'm sorry, what? Are you implying that:
a) He could somehow manifest powers of levitation so he could attack them?
b) Anyone but someone who's morbidly obese would get exhausted after running ten feet, and even then why would they be running? I'd personally find it very hard to attack people if I had no legs.
A new TV show: Chav Wars... two estates compete for a single prize! (a pimped out old banger with wheels that are too big for the arches, massive speakers that cause the crappy plastic body kit to rattle and a huge exhaust that actually bleeds power from the engine).
What they don't know is the prize is full of C4, so as soon as they try to steal it, they become a fine rain of red mist.
I don't really think we need to treat them like heroes though. They chose their career how they want it and why are they more heroic than another man like a bin-man or street sweeper?
Stupidest post ever. Even if you discount the fact that the Armed Forces are protecting our nation's interests and security - how many times a day do bin-men pull their mates from the wreckage of a burning land-rover whilst under enemy fire? How many street-sweepers sacrifice their lives so that other street-sweepers may live?
SilverMK2 wrote:A new TV show: Chav Wars... two estates compete for a single prize! (a pimped out old banger with wheels that are too big for the arches, massive speakers that cause the crappy plastic body kit to rattle and a huge exhaust that actually bleeds power from the engine).
What they don't know is the prize is full of C4, so as soon as they try to steal it, they become a fine rain of red mist.
The government is the root cause. Since 1997 the Uk has been subjected to wave after wave of Political Correctness, the purpose of which appears to be 'equality' but in fact has been little more than divide and rule. The basic principle is that the majority is wrong, must accept guilt and must be silent - thus limiting opposition in thought and helping eliminate vocalised opposition by accusation of bigotry.
People were taught 'tolerance and respect' which means enforcing a push back on the political majority while empowering others. Again this sounds laudable at face value, but equal opportunitiers and equal rights are rarely equal, you just get a new imbalance.
In steps chav. Chav occurs because of the dogmas enforced on the thinking of the nature, accept and respect. As in when spoken to the majority: 'if you dont bend over backwards we will come after you with the force of law'. However chidlren being politically unempowered are given extra leeway to compensate.
However political correctnes and actual correctness are poles apart. Chidlren are not stupid, they need discipline and discipline is cemented by the generational ties. Now this can break down in individual cases, but by and large it works. However the psychology of a child is based on the immediate, children cannot truly form a social conscience before the age of about ten because the brain is not wired that way, but develop basic instinctual reason much younger. Thus they are in effect taught that they can get away with things they ought not get away with, this temptation rises year on year. As children grow older they cement their new morality i.e little to none.
For example, you try and ward off a child thug and you face the weight of the law, child thugs know this, and know the police will not do anything to them, thus youth crime and societal disrespect grows. Peerr pressure and experience of levity encourage more and more children to misbehave. It has got to the point what class and cultural divides are no longer a factor. I see public school chavs nearly as often as those from sink estates, they might be a little better presented, but the ethic is horribly similar. As the saying goes 'bad company corrupts good character' thus the nations character becomes in a very real way diseased.
Meanwhile social workers spoon fed left wing dogmas themselves, search for external causes to blame (anything but themselves) try to give pointless platitudes to louts a favourite being "what would you want". The ideology of social work is based on the idea of empowerment, thus asking the 'young person', as they are called, to vocalise their desires and thus gain equality and self respect. What this in fact does is tell a youth in fact that 'do as you please, you have rights' and wonder afterwards why the rights of others are held in so little regard.
I have seen this and witnessed this pattern for years, its getting worse and worse. To be fair my experiences of this form of political correctness predate 1997, but was inherent in the political thinking of local authorities prior to this. Often this is reinfoced by the claim that non acceptance of the dogmas is a sign of bigotry and ignorance, thus preventing old school trained social workers and council employees from challenging the concepts for fear of their jobs and public esteem. The root cause is the new dogma that infects our society, partly preceding but greatly extended by New Labour who used the concept to cement power reorganise the civil service with party politicised management and stifle critque nationwide. It worked and kept New Labour popular and in firm control until the aftermath of othe Iraq invasion.
As a case in point I remember my old youth worker training, and how I was told that an ethnic minority cannot be rascist, a female cannot be sexist, and by extension a wrong between a youth and an adult is ultimately the adults 'fault' as neither of the three are 'empowered'. They even had confessions especially for white male heterosexuals when our biases were challenged I sat through this training, should I say indoctrination in a state of near shock, my thoughts went to the film Killing Fields and the idea that it is best tio keep your own council and say 'taxi taxi' when asked what you think.
Note how youth work was considered connected to race, gender bias and sexuality issues too, the idea was clear: you beleived what we taught you or you were a screaming bigot, one way or another. Bigots are of course not welcome in the Youth or Social services.
While the above is not a race issue I must stress that the councils of the time werre making it a race issue, because in thier eyes a bigot was a bigot and to disagree with one policy makes you suspect regarding them all. This is no exagerration, the dogmas are entrenched and independent thought is removed by fear and accusation. Noone wants to be thought of as an evil bigot, and that is what you appear to be if you practice youth work or social work other than in the new way. Independent thought is not encouraged.
My training was long ago, and much has changed since, for the worse. I regularly see rights abused but those in with the dogma are correct and above the law in some respects. Its only cases like Baby P that bring out the rot to the fore. If you read between the lines on that and similar cases you will see a pattern, if you say the right things to social services, in regards to the dogma especially, they will say nothing and do nothing without very firm evidence to the contrary.
As it happens children have good bs detectors, and can see through a wall of dogma that an adult might not see or choose not to see. Children can see the words as empty and thus the police (who have similar bullshits to swallow) and social services are in many respects without power. Yes they can detain, a badge of honour, hand out an ASBO, a real badge of honour, or talk you into seeing reason. The trouble is the dogmas are not reason, they are toothless and kids know it. So all the councilling which is supposed to repair and heal the differences are for naught. The only exeptions are from the various religions groups and communities who do not embrace the dogmas, the trouble is many have dogmas fo their own, and the government would like nothing better for them to go away, Christian groups especially. Though some minority religons and churches for that matter are left alone for good or ill.
The topical point of defacing war monuments and harassing veterans is a case in point. While 'empowerment' has long been a watchword, until recently, and then only for tactical reasons a contempt of the armed forces was a staple of the new moral majority as formed by the governments dogmas.
It is no exagerration to say that some councils banned the Union Flag and the Cross of St George as 'racist', and other including the council of my home town banned the British Legion from holding commemorations because they were 'fascist'. The British Legion is a veterans association, mostly drawing from WW2 and Korea veterans.
While the central government figures still paraded at the Cenotaph on armistice day (November 11th), many councils quietly closed down celebrations elsewhere. Here in Watford the veterans were refused access on Armistice Day several years in the row, and had to commemorate elsewhere on non council property. The excuse was that the commemoration should be a commemoration of 'peace' not war and should also be more ethnically inclusive, and no 'militaristic' flag flying was allowed.
This particular bs prospered until about 2004 when the government, itself warmongering in the middle east were finding recruitment was drying up, and needed to inject a pride in the armed forces within the populace. A double hypocrasy all told, suddenly politicians were happy to be seen with the Britiash legion and their banners flew on armistice day, often these are the same politicians and their views have not change, expediency might change the effect, but the dogmas come from within. After all how can you call a flag 'fascist' and try to ban the flying of it then later decide to stand alongside it because Afghanisatan losses are mounting a recruiting is morale is getting low. The average vote might have forgotten, but the veterans have not, they have to bite their lip more often than not.
I am not suprised that chavs have no respect for veterans, they are taught differently over here. One thing about the US I admire is that you look after your veterans, and are mostly resilient to this form of the PC bollocks despite slow changes alongside the pattern of New Labour that we are seeing develop, often in threads right here.
Excuse me now while I brace for a bleating of 'hearsay' from those who refuse to see the evidence before their faces, we know they are here.
Orlanth wrote:
I am not suprised that chavs have no rspect for veterans, they are taught differently over here. One thing about the US I admire is that you look after your veterans, and are mostly resilient to this form of the PC bollocks despite slow changes alongside the pattern of New Labour that we are seeing develop, often in threads right here.
We don't respect vets enough over here either Orly.
I agree with you.
Also just thought you might want to know you start sounding drunk around paragraph four.
I think they should be punished by being sent off to whatever war is happening at that time, but they don't get guns. They get a stick each and a single 50ml can of Tuna. Maybe a couple of paper clips as well as a single rubber band.
They should have been allowed there, them being there doesn't make it celebrating war, but rather celebrating that they managed to achieve peace.
Its a sad thing when you have to hope day after day the the courts will wise up and deal Fairly and Effectively with idoits like those kids. i hate the fact that a person and also a vet was put through such an ordeal no matter the country. You serve your country, loose limbs and bleed for it, and then come home to that. (lil Bastages )
Lord-Loss wrote:Of course its wrong to make fun of disabled people, the dicks who were mocking him should be beaten to death/near death.
You are free because rough men stand ready to do violence to those who would take away your freedom.
I live in a house cause rough men build houses, cause its there job.
I'm betting good money you haven't seen your 16th summer have you child?
No I havn't old man
Reading back over this thread, I release Ive been a bit of a dick.
I apreciate what the army and soldiers who put themselves through danger to pretect this country do. Though it is there job to do this and they get paid for it, it doesnt make it any less heroic, but I was just pointing out that this is there job and It just as sad as the builder who gets hit on the head by a brick and is in a coma.
Blake wrote:I don't really think we need to treat them like heroes though. They chose their career how they want it and why are they more heroic than another man like a bin-man or street sweeper?
Of course, it is ridiculous to insult them unless they're doing something a-moral in going to war (which I am too uninformed to judge myself)
Your efforts at trolling were not very successful.
I'm really sorry if I came across that way...... . I'm really not like that. I was being way too extreme. I'm not at all patriotic - but I guess I was over-rebelling, I've got a lot of emotional stuff on my plate at the moment...
Military members, like cops and just about any large group of people, have no shortage of haters especially with the younger generation.
Even as a teen I remember getting hugely negative responses from mostly women about my ambitions and lifelong goals to serve the USA and it wasn't about sacrificing your life either; people have the misconception that people in the military are brainwashed idiots that couldn't "handle" the "real world" aka being a civilian.
Does it suck? Yes, especially for someone like the Veteran mentioned in the OP. But unfortunately not much can be done about it...hell in the USA its perfectly legal to be a KKK activist for crying out loud.
Orlanth wrote:As it happens children have good bs detectors, and can see through a wall of dogma that an adult might not see or choose not to see. Children can see the words as empty and thus the police (who have similar bullshits to swallow) and social services are in many respects without power. Yes they can detain, a badge of honour, hand out an ASBO, a real badge of honour, or talk you into seeing reason. The trouble is the dogmas are not reason, they are toothless and kids know it. So all the councilling which is supposed to repair and heal the differences are for naught.
Admittedly I got a tad lost in the middle of your post Orlanth, it did get a tad waffly.
I can’t speak on the subject of social work, you clearly are experience in this field and so I bow to your superior knowledge in this matter and if you genuinely where taught that:
As a case in point I remember my old youth worker training, and how I was told that an ethnic minority cannot be rascist, a female cannot be sexist, and by extension a wrong between a youth and an adult is ultimately the adults 'fault' as neither of the three are 'empowered'.
Then I concur that this is the worst form of BS. Whilst they may not have the same level of power as a white male adult to suggest that absolves them of responsibility is downright stupid.
But these sorts of dirty bastards have been around since long before Labour got into power. Back in the 80’s for example football grounds where a no go area for huge numbers of genuine fans such was the appalling state of hooliganism. Today this sort of thing is very rare. 30 years ago racist abuse was commonplace now Ian Wright and Amir Khan are considered national heroes. That the event the OP described was considered unique enough to be considered national news indicate, to me at least, that events such as this are still thankfully very rare and that 99.9% of the country are decent enough to still be shocked by them. Overall I think society is a very decent place and isolated extreme examples, such as this, are simply anecdotal evidence and should be treated as such.
PC, at least in my experience, is a bit of a bogeyman usually brought up by frothing at the mouth right wing hacks to convince people that there is an international conspiracy plotting the downfall of white Christians. References to the mythical ‘PC brigade’ are common and yet 99% of the time the stories regarding this Imaginary malcontents are a clever combination of Hyperbole, misinformation and downright lies. It’s now October, I predict at least 4-5 front page tabloid stories before Christmas complaining than someone, somewhere is planning to ban Christmas. Then of course we will all go on to celebrate Christmas as normal.
PC’s aims are laudable and whilst it may not get it right all the time that’s not to say the principles are not sound. Oh, and above all don’t believe everything your told by Richard Littlejohn.
I used to worry constantly about my brother when he was serving in Afganistan. I'd be well pissed if someone even made a joke about that sort of thing.
We don't have as serious a problem with these kids over here, probably because the population is lower and more rural. I teach in an inner city school, and the chav (we call them skangers) population is fairly high, but you can turn them around. It's hard work though. I think Ireland is less uber PC than the UK though.
I do think people should be more willing to give a good kicking to kids like that.
But I'll also point out that the ones I REALLY want to pound are the parents.
I remember the day the National Guard men and women who had served in Iraq got home. The city colleges auditorium was full of expectant families and friends waiting for them to get off the bus, do there thing and then get released. It was all very touching, even the Mayor was told by the high brass he had 2 minutes, not a second more.
After the welcome home ceremony, as we were leaving I saw protesters across the street, about 60 or so in all carrying "baby killer" signs and other signs of protest and what was more shocking was the fact about 30% of the crowd of protesters was between the age of 14 and 16.
I remember an instance at Perkins (it's a family restaraunt chain, nationwide) here in my hometown where some college punks were poking fun at this old Vietnam vet. One guy actually sat across from him and started calling the old man names and whatnot. My bro and I were starting to get up out of our seats when the old man looked the kid in the eye and said "Son, I've killed more men in my life than you've had the pleasure of knowing. I give you just 10 seconds to go back to your friends or I will shove this drinking straw into your brain through your eye socket." The dude tried making another smart ass comment but by then my bro and I were standing around him and he decided 3 against 1, 1 being a Veteran of a war, were not good odds. After telling the manager what transpired the group (about 5 of them IIRC) were told to leave. I ended up paying the old mans bill as I felt bad he had to put up with that crap. I didn't tell the guy I was, I told the waitress to give me his check and that after we left to tell him his meal was taken care of.
So yeah, Vets get a lot of crap over here. Not sure if it's better or worst but it still happens. I've lost acquaintances from the Iraq war, I have friends who are mentally f.u.b.a.r due to the war in Iraq and it really pisses me off when they get mistreated, especially by adults who should know better.
Yeah, I heard about the Chinese drywall issues. I think most of that is in the SE part of the US.
Actually, most homes in the Houston area and probably in most of Texas are constructed with Mexican/Hispanic laborers. I'm not complaining about the quality. In fact, I purchased 2 new houses in the past 8 years and neither of them had any major problems. The laborers seem to be proficient in the construction trade and the quality is average.
We had the carpets removed and replaced with engineered hardwood couple of years ago. No leather trims but have a leather sofa... I have no idea what a spinner is.
LuciusAR wrote:Admittedly I got a tad lost in the middle of your post Orlanth, it did get a tad waffly.
To be fair it wasnt waffle, it is content. The wool pulled over peoples eyes and ears for so long is rather subtle and involves a fairly long logic chain. Read it through again and then apply it to what you see around you. Then I hope you will see what is going on.
LuciusAR wrote:
I can’t speak on the subject of social work, you clearly are experience in this field and so I bow to your superior knowledge in this matter and if you genuinely where taught that:
I was a homeless worker, and thus had to do the same youth and social work training modules to work. The same modules that would have fully qualified me as a social worker had I completed tham all. I saw the bs first hand.
LuciusAR wrote:
As a case in point I remember my old youth worker training, and how I was told that an ethnic minority cannot be rascist, a female cannot be sexist, and by extension a wrong between a youth and an adult is ultimately the adults 'fault' as neither of the three are 'empowered'.
Then I concur that this is the worst form of BS. Whilst they may not have the same level of power as a white male adult to suggest that absolves them of responsibility is downright stupid.
To be fair this is now outdated thinking, but only because its usage had expired and it was dangerous to defend. Between 1997 and 2000 in particular the civil service management was weeded out of non New Labour members as much as possible. The idea that if you didnt agree with the PC meant you were a bigot was the principle means of sidelining many people, though other tactics exist. a slightly milder alternative made you 'not fit in' if you didnt follow the new thinking, and people who dont fit in are encouraged to take early retirement and can be bypassed on the promotion ladder.
The Uk used to have a party politically neutral civil service, thatis not to say civil servants were not politicised, they were but they were party neutral. Blair stopped that and this was aone of the tools to do so.
Once the restructuring was more or less complete this dogma was quietly dropped, however it still persists in some peoples heads and there is a false rebalancing that appears in public view from time to time. Best recent example is of a lesbian soldier who got IIRC 400K+ pounds for being persistently propositioneed by a fellow sergeant. This wasnt even for assaults just unwelcome propositioning. When compared to the pittance soldiers get for losing limbs this is an insult.
What is more soldiers are expect to be tough, while that doesnt excues harassment a mamber of the soldiering profession has to go through a lot in standard terms. On patrol in Northen ireland a soldier could get urinated on or have rocks thrown at them, a British soldier would not fire back at that, many armies soldiers might well do so.
So look at it in perspective. A soldier who is given a LOT of abuse in the field has to just get over it. A female soldier getting far less abuse but one to which the equality imbalance dogma applies is worthy of massive compensation.
Because of the dogmas, the severity of offense or loss is less important than the doctrinal nature of the offence/sdamage and the target chosen. there is something inherently wrong there.
LuciusAR wrote:
But these sorts of dirty bastards have been around since long before Labour got into power. Back in the 80’s for example football grounds where a no go area for huge numbers of genuine fans such was the appalling state of hooliganism. Today this sort of thing is very rare.
Well the abuse is different now. In times past there was largely a small underclass and criminal community that caused problems, chav however is more widespread. every society has such people,
LuciusAR wrote:
30 years ago racist abuse was commonplace now Ian Wright and Amir Khan are considered national heroes.
You had ethnic national heroes in the past, however nowadays the ethnicity is taken more to point. In fact in some cases it is a rwequirement. Dame Kelly Holmes, got her knighthood for a single Olympic gold medal. Why was she singled out, it took Sir Roger Bannister to do what some thought impossible to win a sporting knighthood and them only after subsequent work. Knighthoods were not given after that last set of olympics, but then there were few ethnic medal winners.
It gets worse in the military. Cpl Beharry was a brave man, but he was not nominated for the VC by any veteran, and medal holders are consulted. His medal was upgraded from purely on his ethnicity and the ethnicity was played for all it was worth. Meanwhile a sgt who lost his hand and managhed to hold off two compaines of Iraqis while wounded with captured equipment was nominated heavily, he eventaully after many years got a minor award. Though partly because Beharry was doing harmless funky driving, the nominee was killing people which is not very nice and PC isnt it, after all we are there to liberate the poor Iraqis.
We have no problems with ethnic heroes, Frank Bruno in particular is a peoples darling from long before the Blair era, but all too often the media hand is now slanted.
LuciusAR wrote:
That the event the OP described was considered unique enough to be considered national news indicate, to me at least, that events such as this are still thankfully very rare and that 99.9% of the country are decent enough to still be shocked by them.
That is where you are sadly wrong, the majoirty no longer cares. Education sidelines our national culture and identity, particularly regarding history. Also why do you think Blair destroyed the infantry regiments to gcreate the 1st to 5th rifles - it was no more thna an attemtopt to anihilate the old cultural traditions, which while essential to army morale are of no use in New Britain. The Scottish regiments faced a similar fate and Blair also tried to aboloish the Guards, but was blocked on that one. There are plenty of ex-guards officers in Whitehall and in big business.
the nations military traditions are what seperates our units from those of other countries. The fact that you belong to this regiment with two centuries of honourable history means a lot when under pressure, but it means nothing to a government while wants nothing more than a new sterile nation on which they can place their stamp forever.
Why do this? An apathetic nation with its culture removed will believe the hype more readily, its that simple really.
LuciusAR wrote:
Overall I think society is a very decent place....
Our society is anything but a decent place, the difference is mainly that the rot is painted over. While we cannot say what has been sensored it is worrying to know that Blair in his first term of office issued morecensorship orders than the entireity of the terms of Major and Thatcher. This is despite not facing an active IRA threat or Soviet Union. where is all the sensorship going? We cant know for sure, but we do know that a lot of the societal rot is being plastered over.
Racism is increasing not decreasing, however crime statistics are fudged and many attacks are simply whitewashed over. The government couldnt sensor over major attacks but reports from the BBC Radio 4 about villence in Luton mentioend bombings andruisging street crime between hard right and asian groups. it was interesting to hear of all this, and also to note that local and nartional press covered next to NOTHING on it. a bombing at a mosque in Luton occured but nothing reported until the Radio 4 documentary. Why wasnt this crime reported? Because its censored, its hardly not news after all. But it is important for you and others like you to think that we are all happy and peaceful together and that there are only tiny handfuls of people in rare isolated cases casuing problems.
Crime is rising, it particular gun and knife crime, also race attacks. However the statistics are easy to fudge, because they can be recategorised on a technicality. One trick to make a vilent town appear peaceful is to report only crime reported to the front desk for official figures, so if you call 999 thats are reported 999 call, but for crime stats only desk reports are reported crimes. Thus crime figures appear lower than they actually are, the populace are luilled into thinking we are all peace and fluffy bunnies under the wise leadership of Gorden Brown. Lucius please please dont be so blind.
LuciusAR wrote:
and isolated extreme examples, such as this, are simply anecdotal evidence and should be treated as such.
How often will you have to read these reports before you see the pattern?
This is anything but isolated. Head-in-sandism will not make the rot go away, only an awakening that lets you see the BS for what it is and dispel it.
This is perhaps New Labours big error, for the chav though violent is ironically in a base sense patriotic. This can be exploited by the right and the wrong people.
LuciusAR wrote:
PC, at least in my experience, is a bit of a bogeyman usually brought up by frothing at the mouth right wing hacks to convince people that there is an international conspiracy plotting the downfall of white Christians.
The trouble here is that only one of two are speaking against it, so they are easy to label. Its easier to lampoon Daily Mail than admit that doctors are wiling to suicide bomb airports. The latter is too incrudulous to believe, but sadly it is true. Yes that was isolated but many many problems are far from.
LuciusAR wrote:
References to the mythical ‘PC brigade’ are common and yet 99% of the time the stories regarding this Imaginary malcontents are a clever combination of Hyperbole, misinformation and downright lies.
Where do you get the 99% from? I can tell from then as now that you want to disbeleive the scares over PC, but the trouble is there IS a pattern behind them. were the caases of lobsides damage awards due to ethnicity gender or sexcuality all myths? Is a homosexual worth several times more than a heterosexual in terms of damage payouts? Hell I know of people who have no minority status fail to get help when blatantly creative dismissal cases, two In know refused thweir redundancy pay. i know that if they werre women or ethnic the company could be in deep gak and would try it. But white males have no such resource, and what is more cannot often get legal aid!
You might call this hearsay, but how often before you see the pattern.
I know army recruits who found out of the ten tests for proficiency at selection whites only get in if they pass all ten while minorities get in if they pass any of the ten, all because the Mod wants more ethnic recruits. Is this acceptaible? also how many soldiers do I need to hear this from before it stops becoming 'isolated incidenents' or hearsay.
I know a paramedic with many years experience who was refused full entry into the ambulance service and was told that he couldnt join because he was white and they were only recruiting minorites, and no experience was necessary! Is this fair, unfair or hearsay?
Are ethnic only shortlists or women only shortlists biased or fair? Should you be denied an opportunity because by national statistics women/ethnic minorities are underproportioned and only women/ethnic minorities will be accepted?
Is this still 'hearsay' when the women only shortlists are for Labourt party candidates and seen full view?
LuciusAR wrote:
It’s now October, I predict at least 4-5 front page tabloid stories before Christmas complaining than someone, somewhere is planning to ban Christmas. Then of course we will all go on to celebrate Christmas as normal.
Well in Birmingham they tried to call it 'Winterval', you are right that it was blocked, but you are wrong to think the attempt was not made. In Harrow decorations are up for Diwali and fireworks are held (you might hear some this weekend if your local ccouncil funds Diwali celbrations). Mweanwhile in Harrow decorations they are kept up for the Christmas season, but have no Christmas iconography. That is less important as Christmas has been so commercialised nowe it has lost its meaning beyond the days itself. Easter is more important to Christians anyway. The point remains Christmas has been sidelined in Harrow and very little is done to support it civically, while Diwali gains full civic support.
Yes Christmas will go ahead, but that is not to say there are not moves against it.
LuciusAR wrote:
PC’s aims are laudable and whilst it may not get it right all the time that’s not to say the principles are not sound. Oh, and above all don’t believe everything your told by Richard Littlejohn.
I dont need to I still have the course notes. I still have my army contacts, I still have independent power of thought and eyeas open. Why would my being able to see the patterns automatically equate to my being easily led by Daily Mail journalists. By being the lone voice in opposition and consistent in their rhetoric they acted as Blairs safety valve, had noone spoken out the silence would have spoken for itself. But as two newspapers which very closely mirror each other that appear to be just one the Daily express and the Daily Mail it is easy to laugh them off.
By the way there is nothing laudable about PC. 'Affirmative action' and 'positive discrimination' are just dicrimination by a different name with a different focus of privilege and do not bring equality. the accusation inherent in PC doctrines and the laballeing of those who do not follow the doctrines are diametrically opposed to the tolerance that PC is supposed to bring. as for the language changes to avoid offense, at first they were seen as a joke, but are very dangerous. as Chainman Mao understood if you change the dialectic yiou change the thinking. PC lanugage policy is a very real form of compulsory brainwashing and collective guilt trip we really dont need.
You have a misunderstanding. There is no denying that the Winterval initiative existed, furthmore this integeration and delabelling of indignous cultural festivals was difrectly opposite to the policy of heavy state funding of exclusivist ethnic centres and facilities under the supposded same dogma of equality.
Birmingham City Council tried a relabelling, it didnt work. They didn't try and out and out ban of Christmas, but then again they could not. Besides what is in a name? To a religious group a lot, remove stage by stage the church identity from Winterval first by diluting it
Put it this way, Winterval at face value is all about integrating cultures yes. Now you intigrate Diwali by celebrating Diwali and Christmas, you dont integrate by blending festivals, no thats getting rid of them. its therold bait and switch of amalgamate first to cover up a gradual abolition.
You see its done in stages.
How do they tell you that you cannot have the job because the shortlist is ethnic only? If they tried that staight off the people would be against it, so they bering in PC make it all 'equality and diversity' then they rename the concept 'affirmative action' and tell people that they are helpinf combat racism and bring in 'tolerance' and 'best practice'. Then when they have all these little stages in place they can say to you that you cant have the job because you are the wrong colour, but its ok because we are the solution to discrimination not the bigots. You are left thinking there is a difference between that and old school racial bias, actually there is not.
Orlanth wrote:This is perhaps New Labours big error, for the chav though violent is ironically in a base sense patriotic. This can be exploited by the right and the wrong people.
I concur.
On the other hand with the rest of your argument, I think we're past the worst of Positive Discrimination and Negative Integration for English people. My nephew's school recently abolished (what was there in the loosest form) 'Prayers' in Assembly beginning with 'Oh Holy One' because apparently they were too Christian. They didn't even end with 'Amen'. The amount of PCbs we get these days...
However, I'm again voting Conservative, 70% because of Ian Hislop's spectacular performance on Question Time a few weeks ago.
I'll vote for the party willing to live off the sasme amount as they would get on benefits or national minimum wage each week.
Right now each party looks as bad as the next really, but I've thought that for a while. Any party that is willing to stop politicians lining their own pockets and plough that cash into the places it is needed, close the borders to sort out Britains problems and actually allow the BBC to report what CNN does about Britain, they'll have my vote. Until then my voice is going to be shouting hoping others will hear it and something will happen to start turning this country around. Until then Britain is on its merry way to hell and IMO probably a bloodbath when everything kicks off.
Nothing makes me angrier then people, especially Chavs and the like (I have almost driven my car onto the sidewalk because of the Emo kids standing there, that would be at least 1000 points per, but I shouldn't rant about emos here....), mocking others, especially with Disabilities and ESPECIALLY Veterans.
Here in Mn hitting emo's gets you zero points. They want to die anyway so where is the reward? Gang bangers and wannabes are worth 1k/per though. Just a shame I'd ruin my car actually running the bastards over. I'd probably get someones femur or tibia through my cars oil pan or lodged up in the drive train thus snapping my drive shaft.
Damnit. That's depressing. Guess I see at least one positive to owning guns. Saves me on car repair work.
The thing is, how many of these kids are going to be rebels or emos their whole lives? I don't doubt many of us have been a part of disliked social minorities.
Nerds generally don't care what people think of them while emo's, who while having friends and get along with people, still think the world hates them and they always talk about /wrists. In my experience with them anyway.
I really wish I could stumble upon another ahole like the one in my Perkin's story earlier. See how well they spew mockery of a crippled vet with 6" of stainless steel in their windpipe.
They wouldn't last in the military. I'd sense lots of "weapons malfunctions" and "accidental weapon discharges" or "oops, we told Billy spanker to go pick up that teddy bear on the street, had no idea it was an IED."
"The enemy is numerous and well trained. To be honest, you probably won't survive this assault. But if any of you do make it back alive... just make sure emo kid here doesn't."
Orkeosaurus wrote:"The enemy is numerous and well trained. To be honest, you probably won't survive this assault. But if any of you do make it back alive... just make sure emo kid here doesn't."
There is no denying that the Winterval initiative existed
Nice try, but that's not what I said. I know it existed.. I even linked to its original website archive. What you've got wrong is its purpose. It was nothing to do with "integration and delabelling". It was a marketing exercise, driven by capitalism and an attempt to bring more shoppers into Birmingham City Centre after a multi million £ revamp/rebufitting. There was no "happy Winterval" cards or festivals, it was a convenient catchphrase used to encourage people to get out and spend their money.
Perhaps the most notorious of the anti-Christmas rebrandings is Winterval, in Birmingham, and when you telephone the Birmingham city council press office to ask about it, you are met first of all with a silence that might seasonably be described as frosty. "We get this every year," a press officer sighs, eventually. "It just depends how many rogue journalists you get in any given year. We tell them it's bollocks, but it doesn't seem to make much difference."
According to an official statement from the council, Winterval - which ran in 1997 and 1998, and never since - was a promotional campaign to drive business into Birmingham's newly regenerated town centre. It began in early November and finished in January. During the part of that period traditionally celebrated as Christmas, "there was a banner saying Merry Christmas across the front of the council house, Christmas lights, Christmas trees in the main civil squares, regular carol-singing sessions by school choirs, and the Lord Mayor sent a Christmas card with a traditional Christmas scene wishing everyone a Merry Christmas".
no "watering down" or attempts to deconstruct it as a generic "all faiths together" at all. To claim otherwise is pure hyperbole and paranoia if not outright lying.
What's especially tiresome, other than the ritual wheeling out of a person of a different faith to protest that they are not killing/banning/protesting about/up in arms over/cliche of your choice, as if they are to be offered as a sacrifice to the great and terrible CHRISTMAS GOD which demands all bow before it......maybe it is just a reworked pagan ceremony after all ..
... anyway... what's especially tiresome is the way that this myth gets started earlier and earlier every year.
You're complaining about what amounts to, for lack of a better word, hooligans with knives. If this is the worst of your problems your nation is doing just fine. The idea that this creates V-esque conspiracy notions is just ridiculous.
dogma wrote:The idea that this creates V-esque conspiracy notions is just ridiculous.
Your missing the point here dogma, this is just a distraction.
Hope the soldier can find a way to cope with his loss though, that is heavy ass stuff. If I had both legs and an arm blown off, I would bite peoples heads off if they felt like trying to piss me off... then I would piss on them, using my godsend of an existing arm. This hand... this hand is like... well it is all I have left. That and this lotion... in case the joke was... umm, yeah.
Also... would it really be ridiculous to say, at least you have an arm left? Perhaps we can find a vet who not only lost both legs and an arm, but both legs and both arms. I mean really though... that is so much worse in my mind, I really cannot imagine how much worse it would be. You have an arm man, be proud of that arm... and stay foxy.
reds8n wrote:
Nice try, but that's not what I said. I know it existed.. I even linked to its original website archive. What you've got wrong is its purpose. It was nothing to do with "integration and delabelling". It was a marketing exercise, driven by capitalism and an attempt to bring more shoppers into Birmingham City Centre after a multi million £ revamp/rebufitting. There was no "happy Winterval" cards or festivals, it was a convenient catchphrase used to encourage people to get out and spend their money.
In other words a relabelling. All you are giving is the excuse for the relabelling.
The hypocrasy still exists, because at the time lots of money is spent on forwarding diversity and alternate cultures and practices Christmas is one way or another, under whatever spin you are using : being relabelled.
reds8n wrote:
Perhaps the most notorious of the anti-Christmas rebrandings is Winterval, in Birmingham, and when you telephone the Birmingham city council press office to ask about it, you are met first of all with a silence that might seasonably be described as frosty. "We get this every year," a press officer sighs, eventually. "It just depends how many rogue journalists you get in any given year. We tell them it's bollocks, but it doesn't seem to make much difference."
Apparently one of the principle points of 'equality and diversity' is respect and tolerance for cultures. If so they should stop adding fuel to the fire. It's blamed on rogue journalism but in fact it causes a lot of genuine offence to practicing Christians. Again on face value of the dogmas preached causing relgious offence should not be a highlight activity.
reds8n wrote:
According to an official statement from the council, Winterval - which ran in 1997 and 1998, and never since - was a promotional campaign to drive business into Birmingham's newly regenerated town centre. It began in early November and finished in January. During the part of that period traditionally celebrated as Christmas, "there was a banner saying Merry Christmas across the front of the council house, Christmas lights, Christmas trees in the main civil squares, regular carol-singing sessions by school choirs, and the Lord Mayor sent a Christmas card with a traditional Christmas scene wishing everyone a Merry Christmas".
They use Winterval at least twice, despite problems with offence caused. How many times do we hear 'such and such can not proceed in case it causes offence' whether or not offence is actually caused, however you can offend the indiginous culture as much as you like. This is what makes the PC hypocrasy especially grating. Look at the quote During the part of that period traditionally celebrated as Christmas hold on, dont you mean during Christmas? No the quote is during the part of Winterval called Christmas. Its a small cultural step, but such steps are accumulative.
reds8n wrote:
no "watering down" or attempts to deconstruct it as a generic "all faiths together" at all. To claim otherwise is pure hyperbole and paranoia if not outright lying.
Pure denial. They went ahead with it next year (last year). I can bet you they wouldnt paste over Eid, and didnt paste over Diwali.
Sorry Orlanth but the 'winterville' myth really is a red herring of epic proportions. Like reds8n has already pointed out (Thanks man) it was marketing campaign. Noting more, nothing less. All designed to bring money into the city and drum up trade. Nothing to do with promoting one festival over another. Nothing.
Looking over the links reds8n placed gave I cannot see how anyone who is Sane, logical and reasonable could possibly come to the conclusion that it was about usurping Christmas. None whatsoever. Personally I can only assume that the decision to claim that 'Winterville' was part of some devious conspiracy was concocted by someone who was either:
A) Paranoid to the point of insanity.
or
B) A devious and malicious git out to mislead people, for the purpose of either cheap point scoring and to stir up tensions.
My money is on B.
As for the 99% of PC stories claim. Well I admit that I made that number up, but I have personally cannot think of a single 'PC gorn maad' story I have read that with a little research and reasoning didn't turn out to be utter cobblers. Not one. I admit I haven't read them all, but I've yet to see anything to indicate that PC stories in the press are anything other than the worst kind of scaremongering.
Orlanth wrote:
reds8n wrote:
Nice try, but that's not what I said. I know it existed.. I even linked to its original website archive. What you've got wrong is its purpose. It was nothing to do with "integration and delabelling". It was a marketing exercise, driven by capitalism and an attempt to bring more shoppers into Birmingham City Centre after a multi million £ revamp/rebufitting. There was no "happy Winterval" cards or festivals, it was a convenient catchphrase used to encourage people to get out and spend their money.
In other words a relabelling. All you are giving is the excuse for the relabelling.
The hypocrasy still exists, because at the time lots of money is spent on forwarding diversity and alternate cultures and practices Christmas is one way or another, under
whatever spin you are using : being relabelled.
Not it's not. Using an all encompassing term for a Marketing campaign does not mean anything is being taken away from any of the individual events. If you see it that way then it's entirely in your eyes.
Orlanth wrote:
It's blamed on rogue journalism but in fact it causes a lot of genuine offence to practicing Christians. Again on face value of the dogmas preached causing relgious offence should not be a highlight activity.
Well then they are overly paranoid and need to get over themselves. No one is out to take away their precious Christmas.
Orlanth wrote:
Look at the quote During the part of that period traditionally celebrated as Christmas hold on, dont you mean during Christmas? No the quote is during the part of Winterval called Christmas. Its a small cultural step, but such steps are accumulative.
Christmas is one of many events that takes place in winter. Alongside Guy Fawkes Night, New Year, Chinese New Year, Winter Solstice, Diwali, Hanukkah, hell event St. Valentine's Day, not to mention plenty more I can't think of right now. Therefore 'part of that period (winter) traditionally celebrated as Christmas' is totally accurate in the context of the campaign. To see this perfectly innocent sentence as something sinister requires a level of paranoia I personally cannot comprehend.
That this nonsense gets brought out year after and that people keep swallowing it never fails to astonish me.
... which is when....oh..hang on... during the exact same period the "winterval" period covered....so... "they".. have just as much right to complain and bitch as every other faith then ? Oh no, because that wouldn't fit on your soapbox.
In other words a relabelling
No.. an entirely separate thing which was hijacked by ignorant people with a chip on their shoulder.......
.....
Xmas is not being relabelled at all.. all they are dong is A: trying to get people to spend money in the new Town Centre and B : vaguely ( in the extreme ) making some effort to point out that other religious festivals occur around the same time. OH NOESS 11111
Apparently one of the principle points of 'equality and diversity' is respect and tolerance for cultures
yes.. agreed...
If so they should stop adding fuel to the fire
what fire ? The fire of ignorance and crass misinformation ? I don't see how that's possible when there's people out there who persistently cling to their version of what happened despite what actually happened ?
in fact it causes a lot of genuine offence to practicing Christians
what does ? BLatant lies told by those with their own agenda ? Or the acknowledgement of the existence of other faiths ? They didn't ban Xmas.. despite how often you and your ilk repeat this lie... or do the views of non christian suddenly not count ?
Pure denial.
Indeed. But, don't worry, the facts are out there.
Those would be those things entirely lacking from your last few posts. But they just get in the way anyway eh ?
I genuinely cannot see how when a local council puts money towards and advertises the switching on of the Xmas lights.. they are, at the same time, pretending Xmas doesn't exist.
Still.. doublethink FTW seemingly.
If you do have a problem, take it up with those who, effectively, whore out Xmas as just another chance to sell gak that people don't really need to people who can't afford it... except of course that would be directly against NEW TORY 101 of course.
Hmm, this went from teens making fun of disabled war Vets to conspiracy theories that UK is trying to take Xmas away (or something to that effect).
Here is my 2 cents. Christmas is too commercialized and if we want to get into the PC nonsense of it all, most places in the US are starting to shy away from anything mentioning Christmas out of fear of offending other religions or those that don't believe in the Christian spirt of Christmas. At my old job they stopped calling it a "Christmas" party because some atheist took offense at it do to it's connection to religion so now they have to call it a "Winter Celebration".
That is like so much BS and my old workplace isn't the only one I know of this happening at.
Christmas also means nothing anymore. Stores start putting up Xmas decorations as early as October, Christmas decorations are normally going on sale at retail outlets as early as late September. Christmas in the past 10 years has only one meaning.....money to the retail stores.
The real Christmas is a Christian festival of the birth of Jesus, celebrated in church services. It's nothing to do with lights, trees, presents and so on.
garret wrote:Is this happened in america those kids would be either
A:beaten to a pulp by the guy with no legs.
B run from the guy bet get exusted after 10 feet.
I'm sorry, what? Are you implying that:
a) He could somehow manifest powers of levitation so he could attack them?
b) Anyone but someone who's morbidly obese would get exhausted after running ten feet, and even then why would they be running? I'd personally find it very hard to attack people if I had no legs.
THe joke is about
A) how tough are military forces are.
and
B) how fat our kids are.
Wrexasaur wrote:
Your missing the point here dogma, this is just a distraction.
I suppose. I mean, its cruel for anyone to insult any handicapped human, but its considerably worse given the eventuality of the military mythos (not flame-bait, look up the word before you respond).
But still; 'The Chav'? Is that like 'The Jew'? Or 'The Commie'? I hate to be so antagonistic, but that rant was obscene. It reeked of an old man who has little understanding of the world in which he now lives.
I think you misunderstood the sniper fox reference.
OP news article wrote:"He's determined to stay in the Army," said Mrs Weston.
"He has trialled with the 2012 Paralympics shooting team and he's going to receive coaching and possibly be in the team, which will be a great boost for Matthew.
I must have missed something though... who's rant?
dogma wrote:But still; 'The Chav'? Is that like 'The Jew'? Or 'The Commie'? I hate to be so antagonistic, but that rant was obscene. It reeked of an old man who has little understanding of the world in which he now lives.
dogma wrote:Also, that was a rant, but I don't recall saying rants were necessarily bad (a least not within recent memory).
My little tangent talk time at the end? I don't recall saying that rants were bad either, I was just confused by this part in your other post.
But still; 'The Chav'? Is that like 'The Jew'? Or 'The Commie'? I hate to be so antagonistic, but that rant was obscene.
I think that you were offended by my observations in terms of the lost limbs and such... but I am not sure. I can't see a point where I referenced "chavs and bogans", that is where I am mainly lacking understanding here. What in particular are you referring to here?
... which is when....oh..hang on... during the exact same period the "winterval" period covered....so... "they".. have just as much right to complain and bitch as every other faith then ? Oh no, because that wouldn't fit on your soapbox.
LuciusAR wrote:
Christmas is one of many events that takes place in winter. Alongside Guy Fawkes Night, New Year, Chinese New Year, Winter Solstice, Diwali, Hanukkah, hell event St. Valentine's Day, not to mention plenty more I can't think of right now. Therefore 'part of that period (winter) traditionally celebrated as Christmas' is totally accurate in the context of the campaign. To see this perfectly innocent sentence as something sinister requires a level of paranoia I personally cannot comprehend.
Ok. Let us hit this on the head.
Winterval: 20 November to 30 December 1997
Guy Fawkes Night was Guy Fawkes Night
Diwali was Diwali
New Year was New Year
Chinese New Year was Chinese New Year
Christmas now that was Winterval.
Why stop a winter holiday on 30th December?
Now the next year it was extended, but that was just face saving because of the blatant focused relabelling of the year before.
Now the Winter Solstice was within Winterval but that is not a primary festival, and it is linked directly to Winter per se. Hannukah is also covered but Judaism doesn't celebrate outside its own community largely and is thus not affected by communal relabelling.
reds8n wrote:
In other words a relabelling
No.. an entirely separate thing which was hijacked by ignorant people with a chip on their shoulder.......
..... The ignorance?
reds8n wrote:
Indeed. But, don't worry, the facts are out there.
Those would be those things entirely lacking from your last few posts. But they just get in the way anyway eh ?
I genuinely cannot see how when a local council puts money towards and advertises the switching on of the Xmas lights.. they are, at the same time, pretending Xmas doesn't exist.
.... the chip on the shoulder?
reds8n wrote:
If you do have a problem, take it up with those who, effectively, whore out Xmas as just another chance to sell gak that people don't really need to people who can't afford it... except of course that would be directly against NEW TORY 101 of course.
The commercialism is a problem, we are seeing Christmas stuff for a month now, however the relabelling doesbnt effect that, after all the excuse for supporting Winterval was that it was a branding gimic. Christmas bears enough of those, however when the branding also includes limiting what message remains that is more concerning. Even the shops do not remove the name, they just add junk and profits.
Again I ask, why do it? Why cause this offense, and yes it did cause offense. Nice PC councils should be all about not causing offense, or does that only apply to minority religions?
Guy Fawkes Night was Guy Fawkes Night
Diwali was Diwali
New Year was New Year
Chinese New Year was Chinese New Year
Christmas now that was Winterval.
Why stop a winter holiday on 30th December?
Winterval ran into January...
Also : no, Xmas was not Winterval.. xmas... was xmas... hence the carols, lights, cards, big feth off signs saying as such and so on. Winterval was a catch all term to describe the marketing drive to attract shoppers.
What actually happened was totally unoffensive.. unless you dislike trying to get people to shop I suppose... what is offensive is the way people cling to lies and disinformation and distort the truth to attempt to support their own agenda.
Xmas was not Winterval.. xmas... was xmas... hence the carols, lights, cards, big feth off signs saying as such and so on. Winterval was a catch all term to describe the marketing drive to attract shoppers.
What actually happened was totally unoffensive.. unless you dislike trying to get people to shop I suppose... what is offensive is the way people cling to lies and disinformation and distort the truth to attempt to support their own agenda.
This. In case no-one else here was, I was there, I lived through this in Birmingham, this and the stupid Daily Mail bull that resulted. This and a whole bunch of other faith related non-stories, for example, the winter time play that was about an islamic tale. 'Jerry Springer: The Opera' or whatever it was called. Those eejits wandering saying they're defending Britishness. Idiots can make up whatever issue they want, it doesn't simply become true cos they want it to. Brumagem is smarter than yaow!
Also : no, Xmas was not Winterval.. xmas... was xmas... hence the carols, lights, cards, big feth off signs saying as such and so on. Winterval was a catch all term to describe the marketing drive to attract shoppers.
What actually happened was totally unoffensive.. unless you dislike trying to get people to shop I suppose... what is offensive is the way people cling to lies and disinformation and distort the truth to attempt to support their own agenda.
Your own link shows that Winterval was set for 20th November to 30th December, and neatly bypassed most other events other than Christmas. It was a targetted relabelling.
reds8n wrote:
wiki with links. Hoary old right wing media myth that trots out around this time every year.
It was only the next year that Winterval was presumably extended, and very likely in order to mask the embarassment from the previous year by extending what else it included, which still likely didn't relabel Diwali and Chines New Year, as shown below.
You can deny this until you are blue in the face, but its what you wanted to point out as true before.
The exact start dates for second winterval is not listed in the above site you linked to.
I have yet to determine exact start dates but Diwali was from 7th November that year and was very likely not included in the relabelling. Most of the Winterval complaint articles date from shortly after Diwali, though in fairness that is not definitive. Though 42 days from within three days after Diwali in 1998 would end just before New Year, suprise, suprise. Either way after a bit of digging it doesnt reach from October to January as first indicated.
You have yet to give a satisfactory answer as to why only a portion of the festivals of the time should be relabelled if there was no targeting.
Do you argue that New Year is not a 'winter festival'?
@Orlanth: The city council could have tried all it liked to re-name Christmas 'Winterval' and would have failed horribly anyway. Everyone would have still called it Christmas. They knew this just as well as they knew all the free knee-jerk publicity it would garner would translate into more shiny coins being spent in their big new shopping centre.
And hell, if it worked one year, why not try it again?
@O.P: A very sorry state of affairs indeed. We should take the safety labels off everything for a year and let the 'chav problem' solve itself
Wrexasaur wrote:
My little tangent talk time at the end? I don't recall saying that rants were bad either, I was just confused by this part in your other post.
Oh! Not your rant, Orlanth's rant. Sorry, should have been specific.
I think that you were offended by my observations in terms of the lost limbs and such... but I am not sure. I can't see a point where I referenced "chavs and bogans", that is where I am mainly lacking understanding here. What in particular are you referring to here?
If you have a problem with what I said why not try and argue it rather than just try and hand wave it all away.
Others have focused on one small part, not provided any evidence to refute me, just blanket denials and accusations of ignorance which have since been shot down with a bit of research.
If you think what I said wrong tell us all how and why.
Even on the internets you get reasonable websites where logic is mostly followed, but still some remain who will blindly deny a logical arguement, with little more than 'its not true, because I/we say its not, so anyone who thinks so is an idiot'.
I dont actually expect to reason with such people, but their volume may turn people against an opposed arguement without engaging in logical debate. After noone wants to be thought an idiot, so its safer not to engage the debate.
Dogma is ironically for his name a reaonable chap who I have crossed logic swords with before, and if he has a reason to think I am wrong he is more than capable of saying so without resorting to blanket denial.
If I wasnt on Dakka I wouldnt have bothered trying to put the points forward, but good debate can occur here, and we can have opposed religion and politics debated here without lock for page after page.
Dogma is right that my 'text wall' posts were too long and in hindsight should have been broken down into bite sized chunks.
In general I am suspicious of any opinion which claims the existence of a national character, so that was my first point of reservation. Two other issues were your discussion of bs, and the mention of empowerment as the primary cause of chav shenanigans.
With regard to the bs I would point out that virtually every human enterprise is manifested from the stuff. The real question is not whether or not something is bs, but whether or not any given kind of bs is useful.
Concerning empowerment I have a question. Are you speaking specifically of the counseling provided to already troubled children, or the theory in general?
In conversation with Polly Toynbee of The Guardian re the long running Winterval Saga, she suggested that, as the originator of Winterval, I should stand up and put my name to it. So here I am.
I am Mike Chubb, as Head of Events for Birmingham at the time I invented the term Winterval (41 days and nights of festive fun!), fully supported by The Council and the cultural and business community. I am continually fascinated that the term Winterval, ever caused (and still does) such a furore.
Quite simply, as Head of events at that time, we needed a vehicle which could cover the marketing of a whole season of events…Diwali (festival of Lights), Christmas lights switch on, BBC Children in Need, Aston Hall by Candlelight, Chinese New year, New Years eve etc. Also a season that included theatre shows and open air ice rink, Frankfurt open air Christmas market and the Christmas seasonal retail offer. Christmas, called Christmas! and its celebration, lay at the heart of Winterval.
Political correctness was never the reasoning behind Winterval, but yes it was intended to be inclusive (which is no bad thing to my mind) and a brand to which other initiatives could be developed as part of The Winterval offer in order to sell the City at a time when all cities are competing against each other for the seasonal trade.
Each part of Winterval had its own marketing plan… the same as ,for instance the marketing of a brand whose sub brands (ie chocolate)have their own niche marketing.
I do believe that those who took umbrage did it for their own reasons, to sell their own message and of course, everybody got on to their own hobby horses in the process.
I am amazed that no-one could see the simplicity of The Winterval brand, but read into it what they wanted; to further and give voice to their own aspirations/prejudices. It is time for Birmingham to be proud of Winterval and stand up for an innovative initiative that befits an outward looking city.
However on the plus side thank you for keeping the Winterval campaign going and keeping Birmingham in the World’s eye… what fantastic publicity.
It was not an attempt to rebrand xmas... unless the words of the guy who invenetd the term means nothing.. or, for some reason, the entirety of Birmingham City council and the local are involved in some form of..odd...conspiracy to banish xmas.. despite all the "pro" xmas stuff they did.
I was head of events for Birmingham, responsible for over 400 events a year from St. Georges Day to Fireworks Fantasia, international Street festivals to… yes Christmas.
As an events division (the largest in the UK at that time) we were always seeking to improve the service to the Birmingham community and whilst we aided specific communities to develop their own festivals, Diwali, Chinese New Year, St. Patricks Day to Gay Pride (mainly because we had the professional expertise to help those communities realise their ambitions) our remit extended to all festivals and events. All were to be totally inclusive and the majority free or at an affordable price.
In my first Christmas, Birmingham received national coverage, Blue Peter launched the Christmas Lights Switch on and Eamonn Holmes “How do they do that†show closed their Christmas edition with a burst of flame projectors on the town Hall, “and a happy Christmas from Birmingham!â€.
As Head of Events with such a professional team behind me, it was always important to deliver bigger and better events more often than not though with reduced funding.
The imperative for delivering these events was to maximize the quality of the experience, increase our audiences and deliver Birmingham as a forward thinking energetic city. Promoting the events to a local, national and international audience and thereby gaining recognition was vital to the Councils overall aims and objectives. Recognition of a city’s innovative approach reflects on all. To businesses considering relocating, to increasing bed nights to the hotel sector, to marketing the city’s retail offer all these are factored in.
So to Winterval. The events division were charged with putting on 41 days and nights of activity that ranged from BBC Children in Need, to the Christmas Lights Switch On, to a Frankfurt Christmas Market, outdoor ice rink, Aston Hall by Candlelight, Diwali (Festival of lights) shopping at Christmas, World class theatre and arts and of course New Year’s Eve with its massive 100,000 audience. With funding from sponsors and with very many more events to market, the decision was to bring all the events together under a generic banner under which they could all sit. Whilst marketed as Winterval, each event had its own marketing plan but clearly it was Winterval that drove the initiative.
Leaving Birmingham (to another job!) I started to notice the ridiculous banshee that pervaded Winterval. Through Wikipedia I contacted Polly Toynbee of the Guardian re the (now) long running Winterval saga, and she suggested that as the originator of Winterval I should stand up and put my name to it.
So as originator, what are my thoughts?.
Rather like Oliver Burkeman of the Guardian, it’s nonsense and I feel like many stories around the festive season when news is fairly thin on the ground the media seek out what they term “Silly season storiesâ€. Political correctness was never the reasoning behind Winterval, but yes it was intended to be inclusive (which is no bad thing to my mind) and a brand to which other initiatives could be developed as part of The Winterval offer in order to sell the City at a time when all cities are competing against each other for the seasonal trade.
Each part of Winterval had its own marketing plan, the same as, for instance, the marketing of a brand whose sub brands (ie chocolate)have their own niche marketing. I do believe that those who took umbrage did it for their own reasons, to peddle their own message and of course, everybody got on to their own hobby horses in the process. I am amazed that no-one could see the simplicity of The Winterval brand, but read into it what they wanted, to further and give voice to their own aspirations/prejudices.
It is time for Birmingham to be proud of Winterval and stand up for an innovative initiative that befits an outward looking city.
Maybe, perhaps, the opportunists will now put away their righteous indignation and reflect on what the city has lost, a unique festival that celebrates what Birmingham is world famous for, a city that shares and celebrates with a sense of style and adventure.
Despite the denials posted above, which come up to absolutely nothing you still havent addressed the issues.
1. Why only relabel Christmas, why not include Diwali, Guy Fawkes and New Year?
2. Why relabel at all when it is shown to cause offense, when we are expected under Equality and Diversity to avoid mass actions that cause offense to religious and cultural groups?
Orlanth wrote:Despite the denials posted above, which come up to absolutely nothing you still havent addressed the issues.
1. Why only relabel Christmas, why not include Diwali, Guy Fawkes and New Year?
2. Why relabel at all when it is shown to cause offense, when we are expected under Equality and Diversity to avoid mass actions that cause offense to religious and cultural groups?
Why do minorities get preference on promotion boards and college financial aid?
Its because the group that formerly had the power (whites/christians/etc) abused it in certain circumstances (slavery/the crusades/tithing) and now all people of said group generations down the line must be made to suffer out of 'fairness'. For instance the villifying of white people in America: Obama is half-white, but he considers himself black. My ancestry is 50-50 Scottish-German but I don't walk through Berlin claiming I am a German. It ridiculous things like that, that are the hallmarks of the PC era. Its like the Germans STILL PAYING REPARATIONS TO JEWS. Its fething ridiculous on a scale incomprehensible. Another example is in text books nowadays it describes Christianity skeptically, using words like Jesus 'claimed', while when describe Islam and Hindi is describes it definitly, Mohammed IS the prophet etc. It isn't one or the other. The problem is Atheist Lobbies go after Christianity and not Islam and so on, because Christianity wont fight back with IED's/riots/rocks/harsh language (unless you're Westboro Baptist Church, a group which genocide would be far to kind a punishment). Notice particularly that Eastern Religions are subject to the typical American 'Oh, thats nice' even from Atheists, partly because monotheism isn't a driving factor in them.
Its bs, but hey no skin off our backs. The past is the past, move the feth on people.
Could it have been a deep-rooted, cunning plot designed to somehow bilk the 41 million nominal Christians of the UK out of their winter season of excessive consumption being rightfully named Christmas? A plot so devious, so diabolical, that only the unswerving dedication and courage of the Daily Mail was able to save all BRITISH KIND (the proper ones, anyway) from oblivion.
Or could it just have been a typical local council piece of stupid useless ill-informed waste of money crap, which was of course ignored by everyone with a bit of common sense?
Maybe time will tell, or perhaps we may never know the true answer.
In other news, Viz is 30 years old and I urge you all to go and buy a copy to celebrate.
It seems only yesterday they celebrated their silver-plated jubilee.
dogma wrote:In general I am suspicious of any opinion which claims the existence of a national character, so that was my first point of reservation.
Ok, I can respect that as it can lead to a lot of offensive ascertations, such as 'Africans are lazy' most if not all of which are overeged and often just plain insulting. However national characters do clearly exist and can be drawn from. The case to note is that the individuial can always override and membership of any one allegiance or origin is not indicative of ability or character.
Theb truths can best be seen when looked at the positives, whicgh can be accepted purely because they do not cause offense. A good example is 'German efficiency' not all Germans are efficient but German efficiency is seen as very real in business and economics. We can discuss this because calling Germans efficient is not offensive, so we have to ask if only peositiver ascertations are valid.
If you want a hard example ask why a few hundred poorly trained people of nation x regularly held out against equal or better trained persons from nation y in conflict. This is not to make x genetically tr even necessarily tactically superior but cultural factors and cohesion occur and are very very real. After all on the field of battle (nearly) all moralising and bs is swept away and the cultural cohesion of a people is shown.
dogma wrote:
With regard to the bs I would point out that virtually every human enterprise is manifested from the stuff. The real question is not whether or not something is bs, but whether or not any given kind of bs is useful.
This is undoubtably true, so long as the monkey is at the wheel we will always be living in banana republics, but a stable nation is one that serves its BS on an old plate. Stability is just another word for control. however when the control balance shifts the balance point is often 'lower' than before, is equilibrium is regained at all. Most people in the UK not understand that a revolution has occured and the nation is destabilised.
I can explain a little more but best as answer to direct questin s to avoid textwalling you.
dogma wrote:
Concerning empowerment I have a question. Are you speaking specifically of the counseling provided to already troubled children, or the theory in general?
In general. Several principles are raided by the current PC dogmas. When in regards to children I will bullet point a few, please address those issues you wish to know more about.
Paedophilia scare. 1. Adult paranoia - Fear of child molesters has led to a series of witchhunts, some of which hit the press about a decade ago, more recently they do not get past censorship, but its still happening. Operation Orb being a good example.
2. Fear of accusation - It is a well known tactic that accusing an adult of being a paedophile is a very strong weapon in the mouths of a mailcious child. Yes this occurs very infrequently but still the authorities have little mechanisms in place to deal with false accusation and threat of this sort of action is a frequently used intimidation tool. Many children are aware of this tool and use it.
3. Fear of labelling - Same as above but on a slightly different angle. This comes from the problem that authorities often persue these accusations with unreasoning zeal. Improper police procedures, the lack of a clear definition of 'not guilty' status, and undeleted records can hsunt even the transparently innocent.
Social work dogmas. 1. Empowerment - As described above children may be underdeveloped but are not stupid, they can see an excuse when presented with one, better than adults actually. Social workers efforts to empower children without atrtemtping to implant a sense of responsibility results in people who grow up knowing their righrts, but not their responsibilities who become system players.
2. Introduction of bureaucracy - The children see first hand the bureaucracy behind the dogmas bwecause things are done often in circular ways. This puts bureaucratic reasoning i.e excuses and technicalities high on ther list of things learned. These are lifeskills taught at an education age, so why ber suprised that we get a generation of system players again.
3. Underestimating clients - Note that while many chavs are otherwise ignorant a suprising number of those know exactly what to say to an official and how far they can push the authorities. This is exasperated when in contact with the breed of youth or social worker who doesn't see this, only sees 'underprivileged persons'. There are tremendous opportunities for exploitation here expectially as the social workers cannot see themselves being used because they only see the comparative education levels between themselves and their clients, not their relative grasps of political reality. This is only accetuated by the fact that the majority of social workers, either don't care, don't know or are dogmatised themselves to a point where they cannot reason properly. I have met very very few competent social workers, and this is mostly because of the dogmas they swallow during training, or at least have to pretend to swallow in order to keep/get their jobs.
A viscious spiral of additonal factors. 1. Overcrowded prisons and inadequate punishment - Prisons are full so custodial sentences are rare, many forms of punishment are also ineffective because the sentences are simply honours by another name. again the negative effects take a long time to filtwer upwards partly because of spin and denial, and partly because of the PC dogmas which are assumed to work as they are tught, but of course do not.
2. Whitewashing - Crime figures are down year on year but crime is up. If anyone should know the truth of that its the chavs and criminal communities. Chavs know that the message that gun and knife crime is dropping to be propoganda because they themselves witness the rise. Whitewashing sends out a clear message, 'we will paste over what you do', if you think of that, its quite empowering really if you think from their perspective.
Dogma, I can go into whichever of these in greater detail and give some examples if you like. While this is an unpleasant topic as and where you disagree as opposed to 'being uincomfortable with the concept' please do state your logical objections and I will adrfress them as well as I can.
Orlanth wrote:Despite the denials posted above, which come up to absolutely nothing you still havent addressed the issues.
1. Why only relabel Christmas, why not include Diwali, Guy Fawkes and New Year?
2. Why relabel at all when it is shown to cause offense, when we are expected under Equality and Diversity to avoid mass actions that cause offense to religious and cultural groups?
I cannot refute when you don't actually offer any proof other than the usual nebulous feeling and hearsy. There is no issue here except one you are trying to make. They didn't relabel xmas.. as Xmas doesn't start in November.. which is when this marketing promotion started. You can repeat this lie as often as you want but it still won't be true. Seeing as this promotion did run for/over the duration of most/much of the events you ask about I don't see how they could just be relabeling Xmas and not anything else. Except of course that wouldn't fit with the BS "argument" you're trying to present. Without any actual evidence or support for it. Again. that's why there's so many references to Xmas and all the xmas events, still called as such, in the event when they ran it. YOu have not offered a single actual shred of evidence of any "conspiracy" or even intent to "relabel" Xmas whatsoever.
Seriously, you're coming across as delusional now.
I wasn't offended by it at all, neither were most people. Seeing as most people didn't give a feth either way it failed to cause "mass offense". In fact the only people with a genuine grievance are the poor sods who work for Birmimgham council who are still forced to deal with the fallout from this thing even now.
reds8n wrote: I cannot refute when you don't actually offer any proof other than the usual nebulous feeling and hearsy.
I offered you set dates, then duration and estimates for the next year. What more proof would you need. Or is proof irrelevant in the face of your prefered opinion of events.
reds8n wrote: Seeing as this promotion did run for/over the duration of most/much of the events you ask about I don't see how they could just be relabeling Xmas and not anything else.
Pure un-thinking denial of the facts.
Leads me to wonder if you can actually read a calender?
Orlanth wrote:
The case to note is that the individuial can always override and membership of any one allegiance or origin is not indicative of ability or character.
If that's the case, how is it possible to separate national character from individual choice? It isn't as though we can meet a suitable sample of any given nation's constituents.
There's also issues of translation to be considered. You can go to Ireland and discover that everyone gets piss drunk on a nightly basis, and so conclude that they are lazy folk. However, that conclusion need not have relevance to the actual productivity of the nation. Different things in different niches and all that.
Orlanth wrote:
After all on the field of battle (nearly) all moralising and bs is swept away and the cultural cohesion of a people is shown.
Cultural cohesion is a defining feature of nationality. Without it there simply is no nation.
Orlanth wrote:
This is undoubtably true, so long as the monkey is at the wheel we will always be living in banana republics, but a stable nation is one that serves its BS on an old plate. Stability is just another word for control. however when the control balance shifts the balance point is often 'lower' than before, is equilibrium is regained at all. Most people in the UK not understand that a revolution has occured and the nation is destabilised.
I can explain a little more but best as answer to direct questin s to avoid textwalling you.
I don't mind being textwalled when the wall is pertinent to a direct query. Which is good, because I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I understand the idea that stability requires that one foot be planted squarely on tradition, but I'm not sure what you would consider as the revolutionary point in UK politics. Perhaps you could elaborate?
Orlanth wrote:
2. Introduction of bureaucracy - The children see first hand the bureaucracy behind the dogmas bwecause things are done often in circular ways. This puts bureaucratic reasoning i.e excuses and technicalities high on ther list of things learned. These are lifeskills taught at an education age, so why ber suprised that we get a generation of system players again.
I'm not sure this touches on the desire to excess. Are you beginning from a stance of necessary wickedness?
Orlanth wrote:
...There are tremendous opportunities for exploitation here expectially as the social workers cannot see themselves being used because they only see the comparative education levels between themselves and their clients, not their relative grasps of political reality...
Yeah, I completely agree with this.
Orlanth wrote:
1. Overcrowded prisons and inadequate punishment - Prisons are full so custodial sentences are rare, many forms of punishment are also ineffective because the sentences are simply honours by another name.
That seems as though its an intrinsic feature of criminal culture. I can't think of many instances in history in which those of a malign bent would perceive others similarly marked as negative for the marking.
Orlanth wrote:
2. Whitewashing - Crime figures are down year on year but crime is up. If anyone should know the truth of that its the chavs and criminal communities. Chavs know that the message that gun and knife crime is dropping to be propoganda because they themselves witness the rise. Whitewashing sends out a clear message, 'we will paste over what you do', if you think of that, its quite empowering really if you think from their perspective.
Its difficult for me to address this point, as I've not been to the UK in some time. I could post the standard objection from statistical error, but I'm sure you're aware of that so I won't trouble you other than to ask for greater elaboration with respect to the discrepancy.
I offered you set dates, then duration and estimates for the next year.
Incorrect ones, and the 2nd year... covered the events mentionned. And I want prooff that this was an attempt to relabel xmas, as you keep claiming, rather than a marketing exercise as every other source shows.
Pure un-thinking denial of the facts.
Leads me to wonder if you can actually read a calender?
Can you read at all ? Because you keep spouting thesame lies with no actual proof despite repeated asks for such.
You appear to be the only person in the world who thinks Christmas starts in November. And you don't seem to be all that aware of Diwali eitehr.. it moves around a lot and that year, being fairly significant in regards to the history of India, there were many celebrations of/for the festival, including in Birmingham, 22nd November.. which.. oh look.. is in the Winterval period. OH NOES ! THEY'RE RELABELLING DIWALI ! Except, like xmas they weren't. The festival started on the 17th of that month.. and runs for 5 days.. oh.. look.. that's Winterval !
Let's summarise
Birmingham City Council wants people to celebrate Christmas. Christmas is the very heart of Winterval; far from not talking about Christmas the events within Winterval and the publicity material for it are covered in Christmas greetings and traditional images, including angels and carol singers.
The council had drawn particular attention to the city's Anglican cathedral during the festival by placing Christmas lights.
The tradition of festive lighting for Christmas is a long standing tradition in many Christian countries, and has been adopted in secular fashion in a number of other cultures ....
in the trees around the building, and the greeting "Happy Christmas Birmingham" hung in large lights over the main entrance to the Council House as it had done every other year.
Clearlyt hey didn't want Xmas to happen.
can you ? Because you don't seem to e able to do so.
I offered you set dates, then duration and estimates for the next year.
Incorrect ones, and the 2nd year... covered the events mentionned. And I want prooff that this was an attempt to relabel xmas, as you keep claiming, rather than a marketing exercise as every other source shows.
So the dates you quoted that I read and showed back to you were incorrect. Ok so why propose this as your own evidence?
The 1st year dates are stated and did not include Diwali and stopped just before New Year. Yes I later noted the typo of 30th.
The second year ran for 42 days and again did not include Diwali if it stopped on New Years Eve like the first and cannot include both festivals either way. Now you say it covered the dates mentioned, this is a bit of misinforamtion because its plain if you count the 42 days of Winterval that it physically cannot.
reds8n wrote:.....rather than a marketing exercise as every other source shows.
There are plenty of comments both ways on that one just Google Winterval and read on. It is interesting that you refuse to accept the numerous instances of critique by civic leaders including the Bishop of Birmingham as 'sources'. To be a 'source' is must agree with you, right?
reds8n wrote:
You appear to be the only person in the world who thinks Christmas starts in November.
This should not need explaining: A good way of including something but not something else is to mark a border between the two. My very point. Winterval started between Diwali and Christmas thus deliberately including one and not the other.
reds8n wrote:
And you don't seem to be all that aware of Diwali eitehr.. it moves around a lot and that year, being fairly significant in regards to the history of India, there were many celebrations of/for the festival, including in Birmingham, 22nd November.. which.. oh look.. is in the Winterval period. OH NOES ! THEY'RE RELABELLING DIWALI ! Except, like xmas they weren't. The festival started on the 17th of that month.. and runs for 5 days.. oh.. look.. that's Winterval !
I understand Diwali well enough to give correct dates for the festival, and a link in the above post. It was outside Winterval periods in both 1997/8 and 1998/9.
So I don't know where you are geting your dates from, or did you just make them up?
Now if there was some Diwali service on 22nd November within Winterval I can accept that it occured within Winterval, but it is no more Diwali and an early December carol service is Christmas.
reds8n wrote:
Can you read at all ? Because you keep spouting thesame lies with no actual proof despite repeated asks for such.
Grab a calender look up the dates given and see where Winterval lies in relation to them. Even if we took Mike Chubbs commentary that you quoted requoted and underlined and tried to fit all the festivals listed within 41 days and nights you will find you cannot, without creating gaps. Now if Mike Chubb cant get his facts right over when Winterval is (see below), what hope have you to defend his claims.
reds8n wrote:
Let's summarise
Ok
reds8n wrote:
Birmingham City Council wants people to celebrate Christmas. Christmas is the very heart of Winterval; far from not talking about Christmas the events within Winterval and the publicity material for it are covered in Christmas greetings and traditional images, including angels and carol singers..... and the greeting "Happy Christmas Birmingham" hung in large lights over the main entrance to the Council House as it had done every other year.
Clearly they didn't want Xmas to happen.
can you ? Because you don't seem to e able to do so.
As others have pointed out Christmas and the trappings of Christmas are two different things. By placing Christmas at the heart of Winterval, Winterval embodies Christmas.
Note how Chiristmas is not included in the itinery in that you get: Christmas Lights Switch On, Frankfurt Christmas Market, Aston Hall by Candlelight (being at Aston I know this is a Chistmasy event).
What is not mentioned is Christmas itself, a sidelining if ever I saw one.
Well Christmas appears to be all of Winterval, which was apparently acording to your sources a marketing exercise. Let us look at that.
If its for increased retail that commercial Christmas long precedes the religious festival starting as early as October full on in retail circles, and many shops start to plug christmas far earlier in any case it should overlap Diwali. Christmas shopping season also logically ends on December 24th.
For the marketing to be Winter rather than Christmas based then it ought to include January sales, and in part does such as the 'January sales from Boxing day' but not into January itself.
Diwali is also a time of gifts and thus a commercial Winterval should logically predate Diwali for its own ends.
People celebrate the commercial aspects of Christmas with or without any church, and thus do not require a Winterval to get involved.
The dates for Winterval do not logically follow as a marketing exercise, its certainly doesnt follow to repeat the error a second year after the failure and offence caused by ther first. Putting backs up =/ marketing genius. Furthermore it is directly against the concepts of Equality and Diversity, which are very strongly enforced in the case of faiths and minority groups.
at the very least Birmingham Council ought to have looked at Winterval 97/8 and asked did this cause offense to religious groups? As it did this should have been respected under thier own Equality and Diversity mandate and not repeated the ofence. It is quite likely that Equality and Diversity was looked at, but only in relation to Diwali.
Again it is time to mention Hanukkah, which lies within Winterval. Judaism does not usually want its ceremonies as public events as it is by culture a private religion. Even Purim the most 'outward' of Jewish religious festivals is only really open within the Jewish community. Thus ignoring Hannukkah at Winterval in fact suits their purposes. Multi faith/culturalism and Judiasm normally goes no further than a few Rabbis attending a communal celebration. Noone Jew or otherwise seems to have any problems with this, nor should they.
Winterval only logically fits the facts as an attempt to relabel Christmas adn to limit its cultural footprint. Christmas itself is largely divorced from the trappings, which in many ways is a good thing, but the rtapping neverrtheless still highlight Christmas one way or another. By recategorising those customs Christmas itself is sidelined to some degree or other, this will only continue had the Winterval persisted. As changing a culture is something that takes time outside of a revolution there is good logical reason to suggest that Winterval existed to undermine Christmas, and as there appeared to be no other logical reason for Winterval to exist it raises fair question as to whether it was solely intended for such a purpose.
Now this is admittedly exactly what Christianity did sixteen centuries ago to the festivals of Yule and Ishtar (Christmas and Easter), so we know the tactic works! But doing it back now is not excused, after all 'we' (modern christians) didnt stomp on Yule any more than 'we' (modern English) stomped on the French.
Just to put this issue to bed:
reds8n wrote:
And I want prooff that this was an attempt to relabel xmas, as you keep claiming, rather than a marketing exercise as every other source shows.
You want proof. Actual empriical proof is hard to find for motive but here goes.
Your quote, which presdumably you think authentic because you quoted it:
I am Mike Chubb, as Head of Events for Birmingham at the time I invented the term Winterval (41 days and nights of festive fun!), fully supported by The Council and the cultural and business community. I am continually fascinated that the term Winterval, ever caused (and still does) such a furore.
Quite simply, as Head of events at that time, we needed a vehicle which could cover the marketing of a whole season of events…Diwali (festival of Lights), Christmas lights switch on, BBC Children in Need, Aston Hall by Candlelight, Chinese New year, New Years eve etc. Also a season that included theatre shows and open air ice rink, Frankfurt open air Christmas market and the Christmas seasonal retail offer. Christmas, called Christmas! and its celebration, lay at the heart of Winterval.
Now this is blatantly bollocks. Even if we accepted the spurious mid-January end date for Winterval Chinese New Year lies outside it*. When taking the 41 days of the first calender or 42 days of the second festival calender all the religous ceremoies outside of Christmas are excluded. Now these dates do inlcude Hannukkah but it is interesting that that is not included in the text quoted.
Mike Chubb was himself not even attemtpting to be accurate accurate, his figures cant be a simple mistaske because of his position and because Winterval would have been about twice as long as it was to actually get all the festivals included. The commentary you posted was a face saving exercise after Winterval blew up in their faces. A snap shot denial.
*Chinese New Year
Year of the Tiger - Jan 28th 1998
Year of the Rabbit - Feb 16th 1999
41 days and nights of Winterval 97/8: between Diwali 20th October 1997 and Chinese New Year Jan 28th 1998
42 days and nights of Winterval 98/9: between Diwali 7th November 1998 and Chinese New Year Feb 16th 1999
Hmm..bit pushed for time now. My understandingw as that Diwali in 1997 was on/around the 17th of November and therefore did indeed run into/overlap with the start of Winterval. This was also, from my understanding, tied in with some independence/commeration of India's independence ( 50th year of ?). there's a moral about web searches here..
Apologies.
Sorry for any snarkiness too.. at work I have to type fast etc. Sorry again. NOt you really..more the $%^&% I am forced to work with right now. Honest... we've spoke before.. if it was you I'd come out and straight say it
I don't see how Winterval is Xmas still.. especially if it doesn't --ending at the end of December-- encroach upon the full 12 days of after the main day. And itstarts lone before any Xtian ceremony or services. Mainstream ones anyway.
In some of the other quotes Mr. Chubb does indeed mention Hannukkah.
Note how Chiristmas is not included in the itinery in that you get: Christmas Lights Switch On, Frankfurt Christmas Market, Aston Hall by Candlelight (being at Aston I know this is a Chistmasy event).
What is not mentioned is Christmas itself, a sidelining if ever I saw one.
..err what ? Xmas is still there.. still a bank holiday.... churches open... I don't see any sidelining whatsoever here. What more is the council supposed to do here.. come round and check people are eating Turkey ?
dogma wrote:
There's also issues of translation to be considered. You can go to Ireland and discover that everyone gets piss drunk on a nightly basis, and so conclude that they are lazy folk. However, that conclusion need not have relevance to the actual productivity of the nation. Different things in different niches and all that.
Yes indeed, however now you are seeing that national characteristics are something that exist but are sometimes taboo if the characteristic is 'uncompetetive'. Hence the problem with looking at national character as you wwere uncomfortable with earlier. National characteristics label the individual and are unfair and lead to discrimination. In the eyes of a bigot national characteristsc are dangerous as a bigot acceptuates a poor national character for fun or gain. However in battle business communications and whatever they are nevertheless factoras to be taken account of, or exploited.
So as for your example a wise businessman knows the Irish national characteristics relative strengths and weaknesses and tailors his approach based on good solid evidence. He knows what to say and what not to say, based on the average Irish businessmans paradigm, and thus secures good business and friendly trade links with Ireland. This is why being 'well travelled' is a great boon for a businessmans employment credentials. A bigot might know the same Irish national characteristcs but discards the positive ones, magnifies the negative ones, and loudly proclaim those as true of all Irish.
Same stock info, radically different approaches to using it.
dogma wrote:
With regard to the bs I would point out that virtually every human enterprise is manifested from the stuff. The real question is not whether or not something is bs, but whether or not any given kind of bs is useful.
Orlanth wrote:
This is undoubtably true, so long as the monkey is at the wheel we will always be living in banana republics, but a stable nation is one that serves its BS on an old plate. Stability is just another word for control. however when the control balance shifts the balance point is often 'lower' than before, is equilibrium is regained at all. Most people in the UK not understand that a revolution has occured and the nation is destabilised.
I can explain a little more but best as answer to direct questin s to avoid textwalling you.
dogma wrote:
I don't mind being textwalled when the wall is pertinent to a direct query. Which is good, because I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I understand the idea that stability requires that one foot be planted squarely on tradition, but I'm not sure what you would consider as the revolutionary point in UK politics. Perhaps you could elaborate?
Yes, tradition is key just as you understand. The best example of this is the USA. The US has far less standing in tradition than the UK, but after being around for over 200 years it is undoubtably established. Those traditions you do have a very well kept honoured and entrenched as according to their nature, though individual opinions vary as widely as anywhere else in the world. here in the UK was far more traditon to stand on traditon is easy to ignore, it surrounds us,. Its also a potential enemy for those who wish to engineer change.
A nation is based upon its fashions and its traditions. To remoever one is stagnant, to remove the latter destabilises as tradition is the foundation of a culture.
Now the 'monkey at the wheel' means that however well established a nation is the peiople at the top are self serving. The only way out of that problem is to have a society not led by humans, which is currently not possible.
Tradition keeps the same people in power and stabilises, when the stability is removed it does not empower more people but does enable some who were previously not in control to seize control, this causes ruptures and casualties political and economic.
Either way the system is unfair, but with the same old same old you got a stability. With a political revolution, which is what has happened in the Uk behind peoples backs you get desstabilisation. Part of the destabilisation is because of political warring factions, partly because those people adjacent to power in the past could not grasp it and were thus not threats, now with the gates blown for want of a better phrase more people at the top can have access to the cake, so those with the cake need crush more fingers.
Ultimately this political culture is the political culture of central rather than north America, and once a nation heads that way its difficult to head back.
In the Uk New Labour party politicised the civil service. Before you could be of any party within reason, and join and rise up. Labour/Tory it didnt matter who was in power the other two parts of the triangle* were in place. Blair party politicised the Civil Serivce early, using politcal correctness as a tool to restaff its senior echelons. If you were not New Labour you did not fit in PC dogma was used as a control tool and if needds be evidence and 'offenders' were sidelined quickly. It was a devastating move and few even today see what has gone on. the Tories in the civil service are thus equally in tune with the PC dogmas, this is why New Tory (though ti is not named as such) very closely emulates New Labour in outlook and point of governance.
People are beginning to realise that you will get the same bs regardless of who is in power, but dont see it beyond similar morality (or lack thereof) as a rule. in fact the changes go m ucg deeper, New Labour and Tory are identical in ideological outlook when it comes to central government. The cycle is complete, just without a stable triangle.
* The political triangle is the bedrock of any stable political system. it relies on a healthy logical approach to human politics, and involves in some level three political forces acting in equilibrium, two can if needs be gang up to prevent the third monkey from getting too many bananas. Normally or or two have power and the last has a veto power or the ability to otherwise make ruling difficult.
in the Uk the political triangle is Parlaiment, Civil Service and Monarchy. In the US it is President Congress and Supreme Court. the Soviet Union was very deliberately formed on this pattern and was ruled by Party, Army and KGB, and unpleasant triangle but one that was, internally at least, very stable. Others include Upper House, Lower House, Head of State, King, Church and council of Nobles. Etc. Those nations without the triangle get screwed to put it mildly.
Its the principle difference between stable North American nations and coup struck South American nations, though in some cases there is a corner of the triangle, the Catholic church, but it is not playinfg the same game and is not stabilising the triangle, just acting as a false corner that prevents a stabilising corner from being established. i.e if one occured you get a square not a triangle, and 4 is a poltically unstable number as even sides occur.
dogma wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
2. Introduction of bureaucracy - The children see first hand the bureaucracy behind the dogmas bwecause things are done often in circular ways. This puts bureaucratic reasoning i.e excuses and technicalities high on ther list of things learned. These are lifeskills taught at an education age, so why ber suprised that we get a generation of system players again.
I'm not sure this touches on the desire to excess. Are you beginning from a stance of necessary wickedness?
Not moralism, just a consequence of natural education. People learn more in their formulative years. So I ask you when should people learn bureaucracy, back covering and double dealing? Those who learn early develop those 'life skills' well and grow up to be system players. Due to empowerment the dynamics of social work is not hidden from the client, as to do so would be exclusion, two nice PC dogmas that are supposed to mean keeping s client informed of what the state does for them, but instead because a very good education in how to play the system.
As the clientsd are often not in school, they are not learning much else but most attend their dogma classes with youth or social workers, sometimes as legal requirements, and so pick up on this 'training' from an increasdingly assymetrical perspective.
dogma wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
1. Overcrowded prisons and inadequate punishment - Prisons are full so custodial sentences are rare, many forms of punishment are also ineffective because the sentences are simply honours by another name.
That seems as though its an intrinsic feature of criminal culture. I can't think of many instances in history in which those of a malign bent would perceive others similarly marked as negative for the marking.
How true, but ASBO's are not only toothless, it involves little actual punishment and are heavily publicised as punishment.
To give its historical equivalent branding at least had a down side. Many chavs seek ASBO's.
dogma wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
Crime figures are down year on year but crime is up.
Its difficult for me to address this point, as I've not been to the UK in some time. I could post the standard objection from statistical error, but I'm sure you're aware of that so I won't trouble you other than to ask for greater elaboration with respect to the discrepancy.
Sadly this is difficult, the government are very good at keeping figures underwraps. However the methodolgies get leaked from time to time.
A good example is how reported crime figures only include a particular method of reported crime. It doesnt help that if a fiddle is discovered and printed in some papers it is immedaitely discredited by traditional opinion on the varacity of reporting. Daily Mail comes to mind, a culture has arisen by which anything it prints is suspect, not in any way fairly in respect to the comperable authenticity of any other newspaper in the UK. You will have seen that here. Daily Mail = lie being a common schitick on dakka political threads.
Furthermore until two weeks ago the two most rabid gurtter papers the Sun and the Mirror were both on the same side party politics wise. However the Sun long a Tory gutter paper has abansdoned New Labour and returned to Tory. Thus the hard hitting headlines they like to throw at the people are now no longer saying the same story.
Evben so the second problem is because the security services in the Uk are very effective, and have been actively party politicised, see the triangle above. This is why while every government likes to keep stuff underwraps the current lot have been able to use official secrets act to secure knowledge that is no more than a party politcal embarassment.
If I knew of such incidents I cannot write about them anyway, even though I am not a journalist. I can only point you to differences between the Uk and foreign press on certain uissues. 'Holes in the press' is a good way of seeing what is going on.
Now for the Daily Mirror to be saying this something is up!
What I hear is that crime statsistics reported a certain way, which can vary, are recoreded crime figures those reported by other means are not 'official reported crime' and thus for nartional statistics do not exist. This is irregardless of severity. So if two womern are raped and one phones 999 (our equivalent of 911) and another goes to the local police station and reports it official stats will likely show that one rape occured that night.
Thus everything is fine in New Britain, noone should worry and everyone should trust in our glorious leaders and their wise policies. If you dont then you are just hysterical, ignorant and/or a Daily Mail reader.
I remember just such a case, but cannot find it: A rape councilling group complained that they had seen more clients who had reported their rapes to the Police than the official statistics claimed exist for the region in the same period of time.
If any practising Christians were offended by the Winterval episode, they must be absolutely outraged at what the Free Market has done to the Celebration of the Birth of their Lord.
Was it not Christ that threw the money-lenders out of the Temple?
And now His Name is taken in vain for the profits of already-rich businessmen.
Christ did mention something about rich men, and camels. Look it up in your favoured translation.
Sorry for any snarkiness too.. at work I have to type fast etc. Sorry again. NOt you really..more the $%^&% I am forced to work with right now. Honest... we've spoke before.. if it was you I'd come out and straight say it [/
Do not worry, I was not entirely successful at holding myself back either. So I egged you on a bit, especially with my last comment. I have since edited it, let us dismantle a few walls even if not build bridges.
Yes Winterval never destroyed Christmas, and never could and I don't see how it could of itself get that far. But many are worried about a slow sidelining, and what would come next. In the same way like a boiled frog doesnt recognise the slow rise of the heat so a cultrual standpoint cen be removed over time.
This last analogy is why the church reacts and overreacts.
Some would claim that Winterval bans Christmas, that is an over-reaction, and is as incredulous to me as it is to you. However others more reaasonably saw it as a potention long term threat if the relabelling proliferated and thus asked that the practice was discontinued.
The church fears change, and many without react in fear, but over time some such fears have proven justifiable. Others that were stopped, we will never know. The church is a long established organisation and also one of the few social groups that still thinks long term. It helps to understand both sides, if you want to enjoy Winterval this year go ahead - you are harming none. But if the church needs to clear the mist that forms the ice that cracks the stone that chips the block of the foundation of the church - we are not really being picky, it's a survival instinct to us. I hope you understand this because wec are not out to stop your (or Birminghams) seasonal fun and attempts at integration. Or at the least I am not.
..I understand the "fear" of things being sidelined, especially with regards to what is, rightly or wrongly, pretty much the largest Xtain festival/event in the UK -- I'm aware there's a whole line of thought that says this should be Easter but, for whatever reasons ( £/$ s I suspect) it generally isn't. And that is a fair enough concern. Whilst I don't think the event in question was any such attempt, it would be foolish to claim that there aren't those out there who would leap at the chance to remove or drop the xtain celebrations of this or indeed all/any religious festivities : there clearly are on pretty much all sides of the political spectrum.
My problem here is that when "the church" -- although it was pretty much confined to one or two bishops and the obligatory rent a mobs who sit round waiting to spring into action ( akin to those who wait around to leap into outraged action on behalf of minority group X of course) -- says something as... as.. hmm.. wide of the mark or exaggerated as what they were saying/claiming it does them no favours and adds fuel to the fires for those who are.... hmm.. shall we say less tolerant than those the church intends to be speaking too. I'll clarify that I don't for one moment mean to say that Bishop whomever was trying to encourage Mr. Violent Thug to go out and hurl racial abuse or smash a store up and they can't be held (too) responsible for how others interpret their actions. This in turn adds fuel to those who oppose those groups and the church itself and the whole sad process grows and continues.
This annoys me mostly as it does tear open barriers and broaden divisions in society that otherwise tend to heal over as people.. well.. as they just get on with their lives and minding their own business. And, out of all the mainstream churches in the world the CoE is the one I have the mostr espect for precisely as it does modernise and adapt and, to an extent, move with the times, whilst also helping to perhaps slow certain changes and act as a voice for some who otherwise wouldn't be heard.
I wouldn't want to see the Bishops removed entirely from the HoL or indeed any such second chamber.. as long as of course there was a mix of other faiths/creeds/beliefs etc in there too.
I don't really have seasonal fun as such. I'm farly atheistic through and through and don't celebrate any religious festival as such. But I'm all for a few days off work, presents, good food and lil kiddies dressed in dressing gowns pretending to be shepherds etc. And all of that still goes on.. and will continue to do so as.. people enjoy it. Broadly speaking.... working in catering I often don't care if I eat another Turkey ever again come the 25th.
The problem with national characteristics is this:
It is a fact that bribery is more widely accepted in some countries than others.
Does that mean that citizens of that country are by nature easily bribable?
No.
It means that in a particular cultural milieu certain behaviours are more tolerated or less tolerated and therefore more or less prevalent.
To make some kind of analogy, if there is a fleet of ships, half of which are facing the wind and half of which are side on to the wind, the sideways ships will be blown to leeward faster than the rest. That isn't a characteristic of the ships, it is due to their facing, which can be changed.
I have no idea what a spinner is.
