One thing I've always had doubts about is the ability of effective, but not exceedingly-strong combatants(Aspect Warriors, for instance) to reasonably engage your average Tactical Marine(loyalist or otherwise) in melee combat. Granted, the Aspect Warrior would have the advantage of agility, but even so, they would literally have to evade every.single.attack rather than evading+parrying, for the simple reason that attempting to parry against a marine in power armor's melee attack should seriously damage their musculoskeletal system, if not outright dislocate or break a few things.

Any combatant aside from those of at least "pretty damned high" strength(presumably Ork Nobs, Ogryns, and I suppose to some degree, Kroot) would logically not be able to sanely engage them in close-combat, yet Eldar/Dark Eldar in particularly are portrayed in certain novels(among other arenas) as doing just this.

Again, I'm not saying that these combatants can't win against them in close-combat, but it would be about as reasonable as Fire Warrior Shas'ui fighting in his underwear(in other words, presumably impressive damage, but one stray round, shrapnel, or well-aimed sneeze and it's over).

...or is it just me that thinks this?

Speed is a more than a match for strength. Just imagine a big hulk slowly swinging at you with a sword. All you have to do is side step him and insert your ice pick into the slots of his armor once or twice.

The Eldar are just that good that they can parry opponents who are stronger than they are. More importantly, it isn't necessary to overpower someone's strike to parry their attack, a lesser force applied at an angle works just as well to deflect it.

On the other complaint, the Eldar armor described in the most recent codex reacts to the wearer's thoughts and motions, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't also be augmenting the wearer's strength somewhat as well.

Clthomps wrote:Speed is a more than a match for strength.

I hear this a lot, but never from anyone who has actually been in a real right. The other thing is, marines are really fast. This isnt the 300 pound player at your LGS swinging on you. This is someone who is twice as fast as bruce lee, and hits 10 times as hard.

I'm not aware of any fluff establishing that their armor enhances their strength(other than perhaps Striking Scorpion armor, but I'm guessing).

The point I'm trying to make is that attempting to even redirect a blow of any committed force from a SM/CSM in power armor should dislocate joints and break bones.

There's only so much even an Aspect Warrior can dodge before they have to block or parry. In any case, I wasn't speculating--there have been instances where this has occurred, and I was wondering if I'm the only person who had "wtf?" moments then.

Marines can beat the hell out of almost anything in hand to hand. Thats why there are only a million of them. Now i know some kid who plays eldar and takes tae kwon do will talk about his instructor telling him to strike fast and what not and he will win. Ive seen this tried, it rarely works.

The other thing is the toughness of the marine. I cant see a striking scorpion getting through in one blow, and the marine could probably cause massive damage with a single blow. Banshees are a little different. I think the eldar are the only humanoids capable of taking on marines, because they have really good weapons and have event faster reflexs, but 10 banshees will rarely beat down 10 tac marines even.

Stuff like orks, itll take a huge boy to do the damage. Marines are faster then boyz by so much they can butcher them fairly easily. Now i know what you are thinking, didnt I just discount speed. Well no, not entirely. I discounted the myth that speed is better then strength. Which is generally true. However a strong+fast person is the worst kind of opponent. And marines are that.

Logically melee combat would hardly ever happen.

Logically, SMs fail on cost-benefit analysis compared to ordinary troops.

One thing I'd like to ask is how flexible is a marine. I remember a thread mentioning the solid rib cage, but even if it was designed to be flexible, the sheer size and bulk of a SM might hinder it some.

*raises hand*

Actually, I have quite a bit of experience at two-handed , armored sword combat, and strength is NOT the most important factor. Neither is speed. Experience is.

Why? Because, well, even a fairly weak or slow person can kill you with a two-hander if they know how to use it properly. If you strike correctly, you land the blow with the last foot or so of the blade, meaning that the sword effectively acts as a four-foot lever and magnifies the power of the strike. The tip is moving fast even if you aren't swinging with a great deal of force. The winner of a fight is the one who can gauge the distance correctly and place his sword properly to land that blow in the right place. Speed and strength help, of course, but I'd back a small, slow swordsmaster against a big, fast newbie. In fact, I've fought that matchup plenty of times against my little-old-lady instructor, and she wins every time.

As regards parrying; Yes, if an Eldar were to parry a SM's blow perpendicularly, like in the movies, he would break his arm. However, a skilled fighter doesn't ever parry that way. You parry at an angle, letting your opponent's blade slide off yours, and riposte before he can bring it back into line. I'm not good enough to pull that off reliably, but it makes sense that trained Eldar warriors would be.

Read 'Fulgrim' were some Emperor's Children Captains, were struggling against some Banshee's.

There Captains and The Emperor's Children are meant to be some of the fastest, most skilled astartes in combat.

Ronin-Sage wrote:One thing I've always had doubts about is the ability of effective, but not exceedingly-strong combatants(Aspect Warriors, for instance) to reasonably engage your average Tactical Marine(loyalist or otherwise) in melee combat. Granted, the Aspect Warrior would have the advantage of agility, but even so, they would literally have to evade every.single.attack rather than evading+parrying, for the simple reason that attempting to parry against a marine in power armor's melee attack should seriously damage their musculoskeletal system, if not outright dislocate or break a few things.

Any combatant aside from those of at least "pretty damned high" strength(presumably Ork Nobs, Ogryns, and I suppose to some degree, Kroot) would logically not be able to sanely engage them in close-combat, yet Eldar/Dark Eldar in particularly are portrayed in certain novels(among other arenas) as doing just this.

Again, I'm not saying that these combatants can't win against them in close-combat, but it would be about as reasonable as Fire Warrior Shas'ui fighting in his underwear(in other words, presumably impressive damage, but one stray round, shrapnel, or well-aimed sneeze and it's over).

...or is it just me that thinks this?

You don't have to parry or dodge anything if the Monkeigh's stuck on the end of your power sword first. I mean come on, they move as fast as an ork against one of The People. You can poke them two or three times before they've even started their swing or realized they're already dead. True, your average aspect warrior might have to put down his glass of vintage cabernet to put paid to the monkeigh, but it shouldn't be an issue.

Pistols are great equalizers, I always imagine those sorts of fights are short range quickdraws. A bigger man is a bigger target.

"God created man, Col. Colt made them equal..."

I hear this a lot, but never from anyone who has actually been in a real right.

Then you have only ever been privy to drunken bar fights. In a knife fight, or any other fight with weapons for that matter, the faster person will win 90% of the time.

The other thing is, marines are really fast. This isnt the 300 pound player at your LGS swinging on you. This is someone who is twice as fast as bruce lee, and hits 10 times as hard.

Guardsmen have a initiative of 3, Marines have an initiative 5, (Dark) Eldar have an initiative of 5 or 6, therefore by your logic one point Higher initiative is equal to double the level below it. So even the worst dark eldar warrior is twice as fast as a marine.

Lets see orks-the most popular sentient species in the galaxy-they're juts fine.
Eldar faster and much less stupid.
Nids. Seem to do well against even terminators.
Necrons. Yep. then they get back up. Then you die.
Tau. Whats HTH?
Demon mantra "Marines, crunchy on the outside, delicious on the inside"
Guard. Yep Missed the guy standing next to you with the flamethrower though. This is not going to be pretty in three...two...one...

I may be fast myself, but I would never pick a fight with someone bigger than me on the fact that if I screw up once and he gets a hold of me, the fight is just about over.

Its propaganda Marines are S4

While marines might be fast and strong, if 12 eldar, 20 boyz, or 40 guardsmen pile onto you and your four mates you are going to lose, even if you are all Bruce Lee.

Not to draw out the jerks, but if you want to see this in action the opening movie for DoW2 shows just this sort of thing happening.

GO BANSHEES!

I really think people should separate their enjoyment of the fluff from the game as it is played.

The game on the tabletop needs to be fun and balanced.

If you want to read about mighty Spase Mariens (Hurr!) just read the novels.

KK's right. I've heard it said more than once that on the table SM are ok at everything but great at nothing. Doesn't measure up to the books but then neither do any of them. The game just isn't as romantic as the novels unless of course you have a really awesome imagination, a la WD battle reports.

I'll go out on a limb and say, I think SMs are great at everything.

Ya the reason most Eldar and such can fight Marines in CC is because of speed and not hey I'm fast at striking like Bruce Lee or something. There fast as in Matrix Agent fast dodging bullet fast in Banshee Harlequin cases.

Guardsmen and the like stand no chance even in numbers. Think of the Avg Marine of a giant 8-10 foot man in full armor that is impervious to small arms fire carrying a chain sword, and either a Automatic grenade launcher or a smaller handheld semiauto matic nade launcher (bolter bolt pistol) now give them the best conditioning possible and somewhere between 200-400 years of battle experience on avg along side the greatest training possible.

Manchu wrote:KK's right. I've heard it said more than once that on the table SM are ok at everything but great at nothing. Doesn't measure up to the books but then neither do any of them. The game just isn't as romantic as the novels unless of course you have a really awesome imagination, a la WD battle reports.

So what we're saying here is that GW started writing "stories" about their miniatures and games setting, and....well....just got carried away

Thats kinda like the way I see it anyway. I mean, has anyone ever thought, why do Space Marines have to be sooo much bigger than a standard human? Why do they have to be worth 20 gazillion "normal" warriors?....and why the frak is it so hard for GW to reign it all in and bring the literature in line with the gaming experience?

As far as Eldar being able to beat Space Marines in close combat......it makes me wonder why you would really ask this question? we're talking about a game setting where these beings (Eldar) can cross the Galaxy using a "web-way", have really awesome psychic powers, and have anti grav technology......in other words, theres really alot of other weirder stuff going on that require "questions"

Coming from a martial arts background, speed is nothing without power in hand to hand. In a weapons scenario well then speed is really everything, that and the quality of your weapon vs the quality of the armour! If we take this back to the realm of fantasy, then Banshees are tooting some serious power weaponage...couple that with speed, and it doesn't take much to make a Space Marine Big Mac!

Why do the marines die so fast in DOW1 intro against some 40 orks?Whole tactical squad 10 marines and dreadnought killed by some orks.Da beakies ar beter than us boyz.

As multiple people already noted, you’re already swallowing camels by accepting many premises of the 40k universe anyway, so why strain at gnats?

Answer: Because it’s fun, and because it helps you make little pictures in your head of the cool things that are happening. So, the following is intended in that spirit.

Size makes a big difference in physical combat. That's why weight classes are so fine-grained in boxing, wrestling, etc.

That said, as soon as weapons get involved, size becomes MUCH less important (though reach still really helps with melee weapons). Human beings (or close analogues) are not physically designed to sustain impacts from sharp pieces of metal, or from any kind of object (small or large) traveling at supersonic speeds. Speed and skill matter much more with weapons. Even space marines and Eldar are close enough to the human form for this to remain true.

Certainly it makes no sense for a creature the size of a normal human or Eldar to block a blow from a creature with the size and strength of a power-armored marine. So you have to assume that they dodge, deflect, or poke the marine first. If they win. If the eldar loses, feel free to assume he failed to get enough of an angle to deflect the marine's blow, and the chainsword crashed right through his block and smashed right into his weedy xenos head.

Mannahnin wrote:That said, as soon as weapons get involved, size becomes MUCH less important (though reach still really helps with melee weapons). Human beings (or close analogues) are not physically designed to sustain impacts from sharp pieces of metal, or from any kind of object (small or large) traveling at supersonic speeds.

Speed and skill matter much more with weapons. Even space marines and Eldar are close enough to the human form for this to remain true.

I don't think that's entirely accurate. We're talking about magnitudes of strength and resilience that equal the difference between a punch and a hit from a shotgun. Power weapons rely heavily on the strength of the wielder for their effectiveness. They don't have inherent cutting power, like a lightsaber or something. I mean, obviously strength is making less of a difference than it would in a wrestling match, but it's still a huge factor, because the gaps in possible strength and toughness are so large.

Space Marines aren't close analogues of humans, they just look similar. They're encased in completely layers of the hardest materials in existence. They can breathe poisonous atmosphere, eat memories, and spit acid. They can't bleed out because their blood is as thick as maple syrup. They have two hearts and three lungs. They have a super-dense bone structure and musculature. They literally were "physically designed to sustain impacts from sharp pieces of metal, or from any kind of object (small or large) traveling at supersonic speeds".

(Of course, it's worth noting that the Eldar themselves are quite a bit stronger and more resilient than humans. They're not frail D&D elves, even if they don't match Space Marines. And then, Eldar have ridiculous speed and experience apart from that.)

Right. Eldar are Tolkien-type elves, i.e., far superior to (normal) humans in every way--except that they are xenos scum, of course.

And they accidently Slaanesh.

And doesn't afraid of anything.

starbomber109 wrote:While marines might be fast and strong, if 12 eldar, 20 boyz, or 40 guardsmen pile onto you and your four mates you are going to lose, even if you are all Bruce Lee.

It'd be close though.

Seriously though, If it was hand-to-hand, barefist wrestling, then the SM will win hands down. ALWAYS. However, in the Grimdark world of 40k pointy sticks are very pointy. And very killy.

A slash across the throat can quickly put the banshee on the winning side.

Right, but banshees are the only thing really capable of doing serious damage.

Also, I dont remember any of the emperors childrens captains dying to any banshees. I do remember Lucius dueling like 3 of them at once and winning.

What about MANDIBLASTERS!?

Irony. It's funny. (@manchu)

Having been in a few fights and many actual sword fights (properly trained too) I can say that while speed gives an edge, a well aimed strike with full strength behind it can totally rock you, slowing you down, sapping your energy and putting you onto the backfoot.

For instance I had one opponent who struck me so hard he actually knocked my sword out of my hand; in this instance a foil, so you can imagine that in fencing you really have little need to put power into your attacks, all you have to do is touch your oppoent not batter them into submission.

I was determined that he wouldn't do it again (he was a dreadful fencer that no-one wanted to fight but I got blagged into it) and so I held my foil as tightly as I could which resulted in the thing literally exploding into pieces, leaving my with only the grip. The blade had been forced out of the grip shearing the thread off, essentially destroying it. If that had been a real fight then by sheer strength alone I would have been left defenceless.

Eidolon wrote:

Clthomps wrote: Speed is a more than a match for strength.

I hear this a lot, but never from anyone who has actually been in a real right.

I concur. The other thing I never really understood is how this 'big and slow' stereotype ever came about. Do people not realize muscles are what is propelling the limbs? Strong muscles=fast swings. I concede that muscle-bound warriors would likely lack the grace or flexibility of a more lithe enemy, but I would highly doubt they can swing a blade much faster.

And remember; space marines aren't jacked up weightlifters with biceps like watermelons and necks so thick they can't turn their head; these are men muscled FROM combat, not for it.

Its D&D fighting systems being compared to the real world. You are either fast but weak or slow but strong. In real life you can be fast and strong, and flexible.

Not to go OT but the idea of killing stuff with a high pitched sound is badass. Especially in the case of the doomsiren.

Strength vs. Speed the ultimate question.

I am the equivalent to a “Black Belt” in Medieval Combat Tactics and Weapons Use.

This is what I have learned.

Q] What is the Most Uncomfortable Armor.
A] Someone else’s.

I have seen [live] people do tuck rolls in Full Plate Armor.
I have seen a 135 lb man in Plate over power a 275lb man in clothes.
I have matched a master of Full Plate Grappling and Overbearing with strength.

It comes down to 5 things
1] Skill [Knowing what everything you do is possible of doing]
2] Training [Knowing what everything you have is capable of doing]
3] Experience [Knowing what you opponent will most likely do]
4] Built in Reflexive moves [Making the Killing Strike when the opening presents itself before you see it]
5] Natural Aggressiveness [Usually The one who moves first moves fastest usually takes control of the fight]

As far as slow, a SM or CSM armor is wired into him so it can’t count as a factor.
The Game already has put the individual speeds for each creature in place.
The only thing that I conceder wrong with there initiative system is reach has no place in 40k, but I think that would just slow down the game.

So Strength and Speed is already in there

@Grogsnik: You really were fencing with a poor sport, weren't you? But in my experience, someone who swings so hard must have a very poor guard. I always found that opponents who focus on brute strength were the easiest to score off of in foil but especially in epee. To be honest, I always preferred sabre--that's where strength might actually be something of a factor. I often found myself disarming opponents used to the other weapons. It wasn't because I was merely stronger. Rather it was because they didn't understand the sabre parry, which is a kind of twist that accentuates strength. In other words, you don't have to be very strong with certain weapons even though strength does count for something. (That said, I was nothing like the equivalent of a "black belt" fencer.)

Anyway, I imagine Eldar weaponry and training to focus their natural abilities, making them at least a match--if not on a one to one basis--for most SM.

Eldar Aspect armour is analogous to power armour in that it mimics the wearer's movement.

As for being too different to humans, Marines are still made of flesh and bone. With both in their armour, a marine wouldn't be able to break through the armour of the aspect warrior with an unarmed blow (if he could, he'll break his own armour at the weaker jointed section of his glove first).

With this in mind, it would be a weapon based fight centred around piercing a weaker point in the armour. The Eldar warrior would normally be too slippery and experienced to get into a ground game with the Marine.

I'm pretty sure that a marine backhanding an aspect warrior across the face would give them a nasty case of broken neck.

Even if a banshee shoved thier sword right through the torso of the SM, the big guy might still shrug it off and bear hug the banshee to death. Superhuman, remember? These guys have TWO hearts!

Manchu wrote:KK's right. I've heard it said more than once that on the table SM are ok at everything but great at nothing. Doesn't measure up to the books but then neither do any of them. The game just isn't as romantic as the novels unless of course you have a really awesome imagination, a la WD battle reports.

I remember in an old white dwarf, they had rules for "movie space marines" and yes, they were orgasmic!!!

But the standard rules no.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I'm pretty sure that a marine backhanding an aspect warrior across the face would give them a nasty case of broken neck.

Even if a banshee shoved thier sword right through the torso of the SM, the big guy might still shrug it off and bear hug the banshee to death. Superhuman, remember? These guys have TWO hearts!

Eldar are also superhuman, in a different way though. If it goes right through his torso, any bear hugging he's doing won't last long since his guts are falling out the bottom of his torso which isn't attached to his legs.

Aspect Armour would be braced against the backpack and neck armour, and the Helmet is quite likely one of the strongest parts (to protect the head). If a Marine backhanded an aspect warrior, it wouldn't break their neck, it would bounce off. If he was strong enough to break it, he would destroy his own gloves and then his own flesh on his hand before piercing the helmet. He's much better off going for the neck area or joints (which needs more flexibilty) though the psychoplastic will likely harden on impact.

In the same vein, he's going to have the same weak points on the armour. Eldar reactions and speed are greater than his, so if they have a bladed weapon he risks getting his armour ruptured at those points (which you can't armour up, because it will stop him from moving; like fixing the weak points in armour by covering the eyes and closing the joints making it useless). It'll still be hard for the Eldar to do without a power sword or choppa.

Overall, it's a reasonably even matchup, and goes to experience/weaponry.

Daba wrote: It'll still be hard for the Eldar to do without a power sword or choppa.

I didnt think that the choppa was a standard issue eldar weapon

Squig_herder wrote:

Daba wrote: It'll still be hard for the Eldar to do without a power sword or choppa.

I didnt think that the choppa was a standard issue eldar weapon

Neither. Woulda thought that a choppa be too crude a weapon for panzees as refined as Eldar...

Neither. Woulda thought that a choppa be too crude a weapon for panzees as refined as Eldar...

Squig_herder wrote:

Daba wrote: It'll still be hard for the Eldar to do without a power sword or choppa.

I didnt think that the choppa was a standard issue eldar weapon

It's usually carried by Striking Scorpions.

The Scorpion boss can get an 'uge choppa though, unless he's taking a power klaw (with a shoota built in) and a regular choppa.

We have to remember too that aspect warriors are not just eldar, but souped up eldar warriors. Their entire race is bioenhanced for their type of combat, being created by the Old Ones.

Marines can go through orks and your average nid type pretty well and we're forgetting their ability to heal damage. A marine may be down in game turns but its We'll Be Back effectiveness is almost as good as necrons. Further a dedicated assault marine with power weapon is quite good actually.

In short they aren't the best in the universe but they are scads better than their primary opponents-other humans- and fair equal or better than their opponents.

No doubt, no doubt. Eldar are certainly more fragile than SM (again, on a one-for-one basis) but I'm glad that the special proeprties of Eldar armor have been brought up. Again, the point is that Eldar weapons and training emphasize the advantages Eldar naturally (if you can call it that) possess as against the SM being mutated into what he is and then encased in ceramite. I'd say a somewhat experienced Guardian would probably come out on top up against a green (well, vanilla, but you get the point) SM scout, for example.

Another point, is that while it is true that banshees can probably take a tac marine one on one, I cant see this being true for marine assault specialists such as vanguard. Your average tac marine is trained to do anything, and as such is no specialist in hand to hand.

A group of elites who specialize in hand to hand would almost dominate anything the galaxy could send at them.

Another thing that helps taking down the space marines, is that they are wearing RIVETED armour. That is just incredibly stupid. There is a reason that no tanks after 1941 where riveted. Force of impact makes rivets into small bullets, killing the crew without any actual penetration.

When the space marine gets hit by stuff like slegdehammers, those rivets in his armour could suddenly become very dangerous for him, puncturing his body inside that armour of his

When I roll those 1's for my termies etc., I always envision that this is what happened (or they took a shot to their non-helmeted heads )

Riveted armor? I had not noticed.

Also, Chainswords. I'm a fencer, or I used to be before I finished college and gained 40 lbs. Imagining what combat would be like with a chainsword hurts my head. From the Marine's perspective it's not complicated, he's swinging a broadsword. From the foe's perspective, however, it changes virtually everything. You can't parry it, it'll snag the implement and rip it down the blade. If it touches you anywhere it'll shred you, and you can't very well try a beat and go on it either. It can even stab just as effectively as it slashes.

The guy holding it has armor on. If your weapon can't penetrate it, it's time to run. If it can, you have to put him on the defensive, Chainsword advantage would fade when it's used to parry, it'd be just as slow to respond to a good disengage thrust as any other one handed long heavy blade (not a matter of strength, it's the way wrists are put together).

I can think of a reply to this topic with an image I failed to save. It depicts a woman with "-10 Str" labeled above her. At the same time she's evading two huge gentleman and skewering their faces with her rapiers.

In short dexterity can beat strength and vice versa.

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:I can think of a reply to this topic with an image I failed to save. It depicts a woman with "-10 Str" labeled above her. At the same time she's evading two huge gentleman and skewering their faces with her rapiers.

In short dexterity can beat strength and vice versa.

Yes, but as I have said this is role playing fighting mentality, its not practical . Dexterity comes with strength and vice verse.

Daba wrote:As for being too different to humans, Marines are still made of flesh and bone.

That means very little, though. They're not made of the same flesh and bone as humans, or of Eldar. Spider silk is stronger than steel, and a Tyranid carapace made of bone can still be as hard as any other material out there.

Aspect Armour would be braced against the backpack and neck armour, and the Helmet is quite likely one of the strongest parts (to protect the head). If a Marine backhanded an aspect warrior, it wouldn't break their neck, it would bounce off. If he was strong enough to break it, he would destroy his own gloves and then his own flesh on his hand before piercing the helmet. He's much better off going for the neck area or joints (which needs more flexibilty) though the psychoplastic will likely harden on impact.

It wouldn't need to fracture the helmet to break the neck. The kinetic force would transfer through and break the neckbones. The pyschoplastics might help with that, though, at least for the better armors (lol guardians).

Overall, it's a reasonably even matchup, and goes to experience/weaponry.

I'd have to agree, assuming it's aspect warriors on the table (guardians are really a cut below - citizen levy and all). I think most Space Marines would be hard pressed to take on a Banshee or Scorpion in close combat; it's their specialty, after all, to such a degree that some of them go completely nuts with their specialization (and get promoted).

I'd probably take a Vanguard over a combat aspect, but I'd take an Exarch over one of them, so both races definitely have their own tiers.

Illumini wrote:Another thing that helps taking down the space marines, is that they are wearing RIVETED armour. That is just incredibly stupid. There is a reason that no tanks after 1941 where riveted. Force of impact makes rivets into small bullets, killing the crew without any actual penetration.

When the space marine gets hit by stuff like slegdehammers, those rivets in his armour could suddenly become very dangerous for him, puncturing his body inside that armour of his.

Hmm. All I can remember of this is one pattern that has rivets on the pauldron. Probably not too dangerous in that case (you're not going to be killing a Space Marine by shooting his pauldrons. They're ridiculous).

40kenthusiast wrote:Also, Chainswords. I'm a fencer, or I used to be before I finished college and gained 40 lbs. Imagining what combat would be like with a chainsword hurts my head. From the Marine's perspective it's not complicated, he's swinging a broadsword. From the foe's perspective, however, it changes virtually everything. You can't parry it, it'll snag the implement and rip it down the blade. If it touches you anywhere it'll shred you, and you can't very well try a beat and go on it either. It can even stab just as effectively as it slashes.

One of the big downsides is, if it comes across something too hard for it to get through it's more liable to break. I'd also guess it dulls pretty fast compared to a regular weapon. (Marines carry Power Knives too, so I'd guess they use those in a lot of situations as well.)

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:I can think of a reply to this topic with an image I failed to save. It depicts a woman with "-10 Str" labeled above her. At the same time she's evading two huge gentleman and skewering their faces with her rapiers.

In short dexterity can beat strength and vice versa.

Is this a picture of a real person doing something in real life?

It doesn't matter how tough an SM's bones are. Unless his brain has been converted to a different substance to normal brain, a good solid blow to the head will cause concussion.

Eidolon wrote:

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:I can think of a reply to this topic with an image I failed to save. It depicts a woman with "-10 Str" labeled above her. At the same time she's evading two huge gentleman and skewering their faces with her rapiers.

In short dexterity can beat strength and vice versa.

Yes, but as I have said this is role playing fighting mentality, its not practical . Dexterity comes with strength and vice verse.

A very valid point. I hadn't really applied logic to what I previously posted and I'd have to agree with yours. The only way I could think of why most humanoids wouldn't be screwed is possibly due to a faster response time. If not that then perhaps just a different style of body builds? I mean the only biology that's really been gone in depth are the Marines, Tyranids, and well that's about it right?

We don't know much about the Eldar really in terms of biology. We know the Tau are about the same as a human. IG are humans....so yeah. However, I'm really going on a bit of a tangent and supposing that Marine's followed all their fluff it's kind of hard to think they wouldn't lose in Melee combat. I mean if you grapple them I'm pretty sure they wouldn't hesistate about biting something off and they seem pretty bloody strong. Hmm...

On a side note why does Orkeosaurus show me posting things I have not posted? And no there's no real life picture. The closest thing I could imagine is a Spetsnaz doign a back flip and throwing a hatchet at the same time.

how about this example
In the grey Knight Book where the marine is on a deamon world and as he is leaving the world he (unarmoured I think) and the dark eldar (armoured at the time) have a bit of a disagreement (as in the marine feed up with the eldars #%$!

the eldar is much faster than him and gets in hits but doesnt take him down, but as soon as the marine got his hands on him the de was looking at the bad end of a super human choking and im guessing rolled a

(and then left the escapees to be rick rolled by the deamon)

Ronin-Sage wrote:I'm not aware of any fluff establishing that their armor enhances their strength(other than perhaps Striking Scorpion armor, but I'm guessing).

Space marine armor probaly would, since the exoskeletons the Americans are designing lifts rather than the wearer effectivly making him much stronger, it probably a safe bet that power armor would do the same

Tonytiger89 wrote:

Ronin-Sage wrote:I'm not aware of any fluff establishing that their armor enhances their strength(other than perhaps Striking Scorpion armor, but I'm guessing).

Space marine armor probaly would, since the exoskeletons the Americans are designing lifts rather than the wearer effectivly making him much stronger, it probably a safe bet that power armor would do the same

Just to add on to this...the word Power would imply that it does do something else than simply protect them. If it was just a sheet of metal I'm sure it'd just be called armor, but since they stuck power to the front of it you can be sure that it at least assists the wearer a bit, or puts less stress on the body during trivial things. Also having a very advanced h.u.d. does not merit a "power" being added to "armor" in my book >_> Also remember Space Marine biology has it so they can pretty much endure a wide variety of extreme environments so yeah...I don't think there's an air conditioner in there.

((If there actually is an Air Conditioner in there....well...))

Power armor is practically a second skin. The fluff talks about how not only does it enhance a marines strength and endurance, but he can wear it effortlessly. He might as well be fighting naked in all that armor.

Another thing ive been trying to point out is the impressions that people have of big muscular men as being slow. Theres this impression that floats around, I blame the amount of tae kwon do and karate blackbelt factories for it, as well as anime. But the impression states that being big and strong makes you slow and un coordinated. So we get the impression of this hulk looking fellow swinging wildly, and slowly, and hes unable to maintain balance and what not.

Go find yourself a good muay thai school or a place where serious MMA guys train. I know ive sparred with a few semi pro dudes, got my ass kicked. I at 145 pounds and someone at 230 is a tough fight. You would assume that i could bob and weave and move all around the place while he just throws haymakers. Not true at all, its all about training. And marines have this extreme muscular density and ultra fast reflexs. Your eyes will not register them throwing a punch, you will feel it first.

Finally let me ask you this. If small people can destroy a bigger person by moving faster then them, why do they have weight classes in professional fights?

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:

Eidolon wrote:

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:I can think of a reply to this topic with an image I failed to save. It depicts a woman with "-10 Str" labeled above her. At the same time she's evading two huge gentleman and skewering their faces with her rapiers.

In short dexterity can beat strength and vice versa.

Yes, but as I have said this is role playing fighting mentality, its not practical . Dexterity comes with strength and vice verse.

A very valid point. I hadn't really applied logic to what I previously posted and I'd have to agree with yours. The only way I could think of why most humanoids wouldn't be screwed is possibly due to a faster response time. If not that then perhaps just a different style of body builds? I mean the only biology that's really been gone in depth are the Marines, Tyranids, and well that's about it right?

We don't know much about the Eldar really in terms of biology. We know the Tau are about the same as a human. IG are humans....so yeah. However, I'm really going on a bit of a tangent and supposing that Marine's followed all their fluff it's kind of hard to think they wouldn't lose in Melee combat. I mean if you grapple them I'm pretty sure they wouldn't hesistate about biting something off and they seem pretty bloody strong. Hmm...

On a side note why does Orkeosaurus show me posting things I have not posted? And no there's no real life picture. The closest thing I could imagine is a Spetsnaz doign a back flip and throwing a hatchet at the same time.

I have xenology so I know about Eldar's biology.

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:On a side note why does Orkeosaurus show me posting things I have not posted?

Sorry, fixed.

And no there's no real life picture. The closest thing I could imagine is a Spetsnaz doign a back flip and throwing a hatchet at the same time.

I was being a little rhetorical; you can't stab a sword through someone's head and into someone else's head without quite a bit of strength.

Kilkrazy wrote:It doesn't matter how tough an SM's bones are. Unless his brain has been converted to a different substance to normal brain, a good solid blow to the head will cause concussion.

Well, some materials will absorb the blow more than others.

Space Marines also have the Sus-an Membrane, and the syrupy blood, although I don't know how those interact with concussions.

Eidolon's pretty much got it right, with the whole Str v. Speed thing. Coming from an extensive martial arts background (greco-roman wrestling and jiu jitsu...a few regertable bar fights, too) I can tell you that when you get that big from fighting and wrestling, it ADDS to your speed and dexterity, not subtracts.

RxGhost wrote:Eidolon's pretty much got it right, with the whole Str v. Speed thing. Coming from an extensive martial arts background (greco-roman wrestling and jiu jitsu...a few regertable bar fights, too) I can tell you that when you get that big from fighting and wrestling, it ADDS to your speed and dexterity, not subtracts.

Frankly they need a reason to encourage people to play women in RPGs. So they did this whole strength vs speed rather then strength=speed. Otherwise women would be completely outclassed by male characters. This isnt to say that any man can beat up any woman, but that a guy with similar training will beat a girl in a fight. Weapons do change this up slightly, but not by a whole lot.

A parry at an angle can make the strike almost have no force, which unless your combatant is highly skilled, will be open to a quick stab to the gut after.

It not just "Lol I are strong so I swing 'nd you die"

A Striking Scorpion VS a CC sm, I would go for the scorpion, most likely much more skilled, as you may know, aspect warriors train for literally hundreds of years.

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:We know the Tau are about the same as a human.

Actually, Tau Fire Warriors, the strongest of the race, are shorter, weaker, have worse eyesight and are more fragile than the average human. It's just that darned armor, which, while not powered, provides amazing protection and has advanced optics which any guardsman woud kill for. Thus BS 3. I would just love to see a member of the air caste get full-body tackled by a grot.

Contrary to popular belief, the movie marines aren't "fluff marines" or what they shold be, but arn't for the sake of balance and gameplay, they represent the action heros in movies like Rambo or Commando.
But remeber, any space marine can punch out a tank, even in game terms.

I think the two books which do Chaos Space Marines in combat really well are Dark Apostle for Imperials vs CSM combat

and Dark Disciple for Chaos Space Marine vs Dark Eldar and Tyranid.

In the first book The Word Bearers are nigh unstoppable, I don't think a single Imperial survives close combat with any member of the Host except when they are equipped with Plasma pistols or Power weapons and then its a lot of incredible luck and well timed dodging.

However in the second book the speed of the Dark Eldar puts them at a disadvantage as both the Tyranid and Eldar get the drop on the Host and they end up losing a few people in what I consider the first rounds of combat. But once the combat drags on the marines grab a wrist or use their greater bulk and toughness to close in for the kill, pin someone to the wall or just generally overpower the Eldar defenses. The combat with the Tyranid plays out like Chaos Space Hulk

Good reads both as it was up until recently hard to find something with CSM as the primary characters

Karon wrote:
A Striking Scorpion VS a CC sm, I would go for the scorpion, most likely much more skilled, as you may know, aspect warriors train for literally hundreds of years.

and that space marine probably has equal experience, along with being physically more capable. Plus you run into the issue of the armor. I cant see a scorpion doing serious damage with his chainsword to a marine, at least not as easily as the marine can kill him. '

"unless your combatant is highly skilled"

You mean like space marine skilled?

Eidolon wrote:Frankly they need a reason to encourage people to play women in RPGs. So they did this whole strength vs speed rather then strength=speed. Otherwise women would be completely outclassed by male characters. This isnt to say that any man can beat up any woman, but that a guy with similar training will beat a girl in a fight. Weapons do change this up slightly, but not by a whole lot.

I think it's more than that; people want to be able to simultaneously play a hulking body-builder (who instead has simply become that giant by killing lots of Orcs; which is a hell of a lot of combat) and a thin, attractive rogue, and have them both be "balanced".

Having a bookish academic with a staff, a hulking barbarian with an axe and a loincloth, a thief with a sharp outfit and a rapier, and a female paladin with full plate and a longsword is considered better than having, say, four pretty large guys with shields, spears, a short sword, and sensible armor. Even though the second party would be far more effective at goblin killing in real life.

sniperjolly wrote:I would just love to see a member of the air caste get full-body tackled by a grot.

I would not want to fight a four-foot tall alien with a mouth full of fangs, a six shooter, natural sharp shooting ability, ADHD, and the ability to get kicked in the head ten times a day by a giant gorilla and think nothing of it.

gak would be so scary.

I think it's more than that; people want to be able to simultaneously play a hulking body-builder (who instead has simply become that giant by killing lots of Orcs; which is a hell of a lot of combat) and a thin, attractive rogue, and have them both be "balanced".

Right, this is true. However people start applying that philosophy to real life combat and it doesnt work out to well.

Do we get to start arguing about conflating reaction time, coordination, flexibility and physical speed of motion into dexterity, next?

Well most of the argument is that with muscles comes speed, which makes sense and is true. I mean more muscle means you get to move that ass of yours faster right? And constantly training the same punch allows you to fix your form and what not until it becomes a reflex to throw it...

On a side note Space Marines are tailored for combat after all. It's not surprising that they'd outclass practically everything. I mean all the other races are raised and go through intensive training and what not, but the Space Marines take the extra step. Not only do they recieve a considerable amount of training, seriously it's not like they don't train them, but they also augment their bodies to give them that extra advantage...So for the above fight of a SS vs. SM I'd go for the Space Marine to watch my back ._.

Oh and Orkeosaurus the picture I was talking about had the chick holding two seperate swords. Sorry about the poor discription leading to a misinterpretation of what it depicted.

Wow, this discussion has gotten really out of scope, and 70% of the replies seem to be fanboyish, no offense.

This wasn't a debate about if Eldar would be able to win out in CQC. It's a simple matter of how viable it would be to willingly engage the [fluff] SM/CSM in CQC as a being of human-level physical strength.

In any case, in regard to Eldar and SM/CSMs, this isn't "accelerated speed and [relatively] normal strength" vs. the reverse. It's "accelerated speed and [relatively] normal strength" vs. "enhanced speed and accelerated strength". That difference means everything.

The DoW2 videos is more accurate than most depictions I've seen or read about, but note that(iirc) none of the Banshees ever block or parry any attack, they simply dodge it. Were they to even take even 65% of the force of a serious-force blow, the fight would be over. Period. No amount of skill or grace would overcome that.

Now, I'm all for agility-pwnage, I personally favor the Eldar myself, and consider myself to be agile(but not particularly strong). But the cold hard truth is that blade-on-blade contact would be really, really bad.

Ronin-Sage wrote:The DoW2 videos is more accurate than most depictions I've seen or read about, but note that(iirc) none of the Banshees ever block or parry any attack, they simply dodge it. Were they to even take even 65% of the force of a serious-force blow, the fight would be over. Period. No amount of skill or grace would overcome that.

Now, I'm all for agility-pwnage, I personally favor the Eldar myself, and consider myself to be agile(but not particularly strong). But the cold hard truth is that blade-on-blade contact would be really, really bad.

The dreadnought that comes out of nowhere to crush the Banshees probably emphasises your point. Im all for agility-pwnage like you, but the Eldar got owned in that video. Did you see the one that got hit by the Assault Marine's chainsword? She aint getting back up...

Eidolon wrote:

and that space marine probably has equal experience, along with being physically more capable. Plus you run into the issue of the armor. I cant see a scorpion doing serious damage with his chainsword to a marine, at least not as easily as the marine can kill him. '

"unless your combatant is highly skilled"

You mean like space marine skilled?

Space Marines don't live as long as Eldar, though the Eldar isn't likely to have trained all his life (though likely longer than a normal human would live).

You do know the Space Marine also runs into the difficulty with the armour? Scorpion Armour is as protective as Marine Armour. Due to this, and the fact the Scorpion's chainsword is better than his means the Marine will have as much difficulty killing the Scorpion as vice versa. It is NOT easy to kill the scorpion (who is pretty tough in his own right, but the armour is a big part) for a Marine.

The Scorpion has the advantage that dakka comes out of his face too.

Daba wrote:Space Marines don't live as long as Eldar, though the Eldar isn't likely to have trained all his life (though likely longer than a normal human would live).

Space Marines are functionally immortal, and can theoretically live forever. But their duty and service is to the Emperor through war, and that's how they all meet their end. And while an Eldar hasnt spend all of his hundreds of years following the Path of the Warrior, Space Marines are indoctrinated, and trained from a very early age.


As far as the Scorpion's face-dakka, Space Marines can also spit acid from their mouths.

Ronin wrote:
Space Marines are functionally immortal, and can theoretically live forever. But their duty and service is to the Emperor through war, and that's how they all meet their end. And while an Eldar hasnt spend all of his hundreds of years following the Path of the Warrior, Space Marines are indoctrinated, and trained from a very early age.

That's not true at all, otherwise Blood Angels wouldn't be mentioned as being exceptional due to living longer than other Space Marines.

Chaplain Cassius is ancient and gnarled, and his original entry in the 2nd Edition Space Marine Codex says that Marines "show signs of extreme aging after 300 years." Marines age, and can therefore die of natural causes.

So Space Marines age; albeit they live longer than ordinary humans but shorter than Eldar (who are mentioned to have lifespans of at least 1,000; but we have examples living from the time of the fall too).

Otherwise, it makes the statement that Blood Angels have unusually long lifespans a pretty dumb comment.

As far as the Scorpion's face-dakka, Space Marines can also spit acid from their mouths.

And break their own helmet.

Or if they prefer, not wear their helmet and then completely expose their head.

I'm not really sure why exact weapons are being brought into this, but it makes me want to bring up this point.

- During the dark ages knights fought each other by essentially bashing each others skulls in. There was less slicing off limbs and more bash the guy senseless...

I'm just saying supposing that the armor was of the same quality being strong might just allow you to bash the other guy senseless first...

THEN AGAIN I COULD BE ENTIRELY WRONG BECAUSE THIS IS THE INTERNET.

I have seen different fluff of how long space marines live, most saying there immortal the only thing that contradicts that is Blood Angel fluff from what ive seen, which when says they live longer maybe there just badasses and never get killed lol . Anyways hands down SM/CSM are close combat monsters fluff wise, all the Space Marine books ive read has countless passages that SM are most at home in close combat. Gabriel and Isador of the Blood Ravens felling Biel-Tan Craftworld's Avatar just one of the times I can think of off the top of my head. SM/CSM, against your average run of the mill humanoid grunt from any race(Tau dead nm who they throw against them in CC) is toast, now getting up in the higher command structure of the Elder(Aspects), Orks(Nobs?Warboss), Necrons(Necron Lord), etc. then a standard SM/CSM will probably lose or Struggle depending on skill of said individual

The 'power' in power armour could be just to sustain the weight of the armour, however I have always had the impression that SM armour enhances the user's strength same as in Starship Troopers.

I thought that the armour in Starship Troopers was pretty low key?
(Or do you mean the cartoon one?)

The book.

The movies were better.

Especially the third one.

Oh geez the third one. Who thought a singing sky marshal was awesome?

Me.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Me.

Thats sick. I like that about you. Ever consider being a mod? What we just promoted two, next time Orky you'll get yours YOU'LL GET YOURS!

If enjoying the hideous raping of Heinlien's best book is the key to becoming a mod I hereby dislike and abhor all mods and vow never to be one.

Wait, isn't the third movie the one where they have a recruiter make a reference to getting more bodies for the meat grinder, and the survivors (there were some, weren't there?) would be used in the recruitment video whether they wanted to or not?

Daba wrote:

Eidolon wrote:

and that space marine probably has equal experience, along with being physically more capable. Plus you run into the issue of the armor. I cant see a scorpion doing serious damage with his chainsword to a marine, at least not as easily as the marine can kill him. '

"unless your combatant is highly skilled"

You mean like space marine skilled?

Space Marines don't live as long as Eldar, though the Eldar isn't likely to have trained all his life (though likely longer than a normal human would live).

You do know the Space Marine also runs into the difficulty with the armour? Scorpion Armour is as protective as Marine Armour. Due to this, and the fact the Scorpion's chainsword is better than his means the Marine will have as much difficulty killing the Scorpion as vice versa. It is NOT easy to kill the scorpion (who is pretty tough in his own right, but the armour is a big part) for a Marine.

The Scorpion has the advantage that dakka comes out of his face too.

This, while true on table top, ignores fluff. Sure a scorpion is on even footing with a marine in hand to hand, but thats just because the marine is crossed train. 10 vanguard vets would smash 10 scorpions any day of the week. And like I have said, its all the fluff, not table top balancing that counts.

Eidolon wrote:
This, while true on table top, ignores fluff. Sure a scorpion is on even footing with a marine in hand to hand, but thats just because the marine is crossed train. 10 vanguard vets would smash 10 scorpions any day of the week. And like I have said, its all the fluff, not table top balancing that counts.

Do you have any evidence for this though?

Vanguard marines may have an advantage, but I don't think they'll have an easy time with the Scorpions.

Also, if they have an Exarch, the Marines are really in trouble, because if there's one model that really doesn't live up to the fluff, it's Exarchs. These are the zen masters of their chosen arts and are treated as squad sergeants. They've become so 'one' with their art that they fuse with their armour and don't eat or sleep, doing nothing but hone their combat techniques (of which there are thousands, both melee and ranged) and can be constantly reborn through their armour so that the most ancient of Exarchs were around in the time of the fall.

I agree. Exarchs are on the lil extreme side of obsessing over their chosen professions.

Then there's also the advantage of surprise. Scorpions are trained and patient hunters, stalking their prey. I'd safely assume that Scorpions would aim to get the jump on Marines, Vanguard or no, and that would easily shift things into their favour. They're not charging berserkers like Banshees are.

Where did you get the 'no eat or drink' for exarchs?

And to be honest, while Exarchs wear the same armour as thier anscestors, they don't really 'meld' like the Phoenix Lords do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Ronin: Of course, it's kinda hard to stalk an enemy who can jump out of a Thunderhawk ontop of them.

Should have replied earlier really but...

Delephont wrote:

Coming from a martial arts background, speed is nothing without power in hand to hand.

Then may I retort that you know nothing of the variety of martial arts.
Karate (the art i study (black belt BTW)), is a balanced martial art, with techniques designs for all kinds of people;
Big and powerful, and small and fast.

I fit into the latter category. these techniques are small (mostly extreme short range), fast and accurate.

I only weigh about 54 kilograms, or about 119 pounds for those Americans out there, and I regularly win fights, because I am fast and agile.

So, power is not everything in a fight - the ultimate fighter would have a balance of the two.

Also, you don't have to block like in movies, you a) are allowed to move to aid the block, and b) only have to turn the attack aside.

Anywho, my rant is over, I apologise if i have offended anyone.

Lemon

While that may be true, we're not talking about a fast person vs a strong person. We're talking about a VERY fast person vs a VERY strong person. A SM could easily break the eldars back. While the eldar coul probably stay out of his grasp.

What about reach? I'm sure if we are talking hand-to-hand, reach will matter quite a bit? And in that area, the Sm would have the advantage.

Daba wrote:

Eidolon wrote:
This, while true on table top, ignores fluff. Sure a scorpion is on even footing with a marine in hand to hand, but thats just because the marine is crossed train. 10 vanguard vets would smash 10 scorpions any day of the week. And like I have said, its all the fluff, not table top balancing that counts.

Do you have any evidence for this though?

Vanguard marines may have an advantage, but I don't think they'll have an easy time with the Scorpions.

Also, if they have an Exarch, the Marines are really in trouble, because if there's one model that really doesn't live up to the fluff, it's Exarchs. These are the zen masters of their chosen arts and are treated as squad sergeants. They've become so 'one' with their art that they fuse with their armour and don't eat or sleep, doing nothing but hone their combat techniques (of which there are thousands, both melee and ranged) and can be constantly reborn through their armour so that the most ancient of Exarchs were around in the time of the fall.

I've always understood that the Striking Scorpions were strongest when used against 'hordes' and 'lightly armored foes' such as Imperial Guard, Orks, Tyranids etc etc. Whereas the Howling Banshees were better suited for heavily armored/tougher opponents.

Especially given the nature of their respective weapons, with SS having chainswords and that mandiblaster(shooting a different opponent in the face while you're busy chopping your first target), and the Howling Banshees wielding POWER Weapons, which go through heavy armor with ease, and using their agility to evade blows.

Striking Scorpions would probably give your average tactical marine a run for their money. While the Howling Banshees would probably be particularly deadly against marines in general(special characters and plot armor not withstanding)

Of course, Exarchs would have a much easier time overpowering marines, with the possible exception of Sgts/Capts/Any Marine not wearing a helmet.

edit: wow i cant spell or write, early in the morning

Also, isn't Power Armour better than the Average Scorpion armour (Exarch is ok though)

Emperors Faithful wrote:Also, isn't Power Armour better than the Average Scorpion armour (Exarch is ok though)

Gamewise, Power Armour has always been equal or worse.

When Scorpions were first introduced, they were 1 better than Power Armour but in later editions it's been the same every time.

starbomber109 wrote:While marines might be fast and strong, if 12 eldar, 20 boyz, or 40 guardsmen pile onto you and your four mates you are going to lose, even if you are all Bruce Lee.

Just thought you should read this...

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article88661.ece

lemon detective wrote:Should have replied earlier really but...

Delephont wrote:

Coming from a martial arts background, speed is nothing without power in hand to hand.

Then may I retort that you know nothing of the variety of martial arts.
Karate (the art i study (black belt BTW)), is a balanced martial art, with techniques designs for all kinds of people;
Big and powerful, and small and fast.

I fit into the latter category. these techniques are small (mostly extreme short range), fast and accurate.

I only weigh about 54 kilograms, or about 119 pounds for those Americans out there, and I regularly win fights, because I am fast and agile.

So, power is not everything in a fight - the ultimate fighter would have a balance of the two.

Also, you don't have to block like in movies, you a) are allowed to move to aid the block, and b) only have to turn the attack aside.

Anywho, my rant is over, I apologise if i have offended anyone.

Lemon

I took muay thai for one year, having had zero athletic experience. I took a class with a good 3 or 4 pro or semi pro MMA fighters. I went to a tae kwon do school to try out their stuff. I was working with the black belts first day. So me, having had 1 year experience in martial arts, was working with and outperforming some of the black belts, at one of the better reputed schools in my area.

Fights generally boil down to 3 things, strength, toughness, and nerves.
Both the marine and eldar have good nerves.
But the eldar has less strength and toughness.
And while he is probably faster, its not going to be by a lot. It wouldnt look like one of us trying to box Floyd Mayweather for instance. Here is the thing though that people always forget when talking about speed. You have to enter the enemies reach to hit them. So if I am much faster then a very strong person, I must enter his reach to strike him. And in the case of a scorpion I cant see them being able to land a crippling blow on the marine in one strike. But the marine is still very fast and well trained, his blows will be significantly worse. Even with scorpions being the strongest eldar they are no where near marine strength. So I can see them at best giving marines a run for their money. Banshees are a different story, as they can penetrate armor, so only need one or two good blows.

Finally, dont get fluff confused with table top. 10 scorpions will slaughter 10 marines in hand to hand. However i think the rules for fluff marines had them at like toughness 6, 2 wounds, FNP. So sure on table top they are comparable, fluff wise not really.

Alright, first of all, there's a difference between a parry and a block, a block implies you are using your strength against theirs to stop their blows, where a parry can be that, or using your weapon to get theirs out of the way. One of the main principals of kung-fu is that you must use an opponent of greater strengths power against them. When they attack, you do not try to catch their blocks, you accelerate them while side-stepping to toss them at the ground. Is it suicide to try to block an SM? Hell yes. Suicide to Parry? no.


Also, speed is a match for strength if you know what you're doing, otherwise you're just flailing around and slapping them faster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eidolon wrote:I took muay thai for one year, having had zero athletic experience. I took a class with a good 3 or 4 pro or semi pro MMA fighters. I went to a tae kwon do school to try out their stuff. I was working with the black belts first day. So me, having had 1 year experience in martial arts, was working with and outperforming some of the black belts, at one of the better reputed schools in my area.

Look, if there's any worse example of black belt to fight, I'll let you know. The problem with Tae Kwon Do (which I do, and the only martial art that I do, btw) is most schools have a tendency to hand out belts like candy. Tae Kwon Do is one of the slowest martial arts to learn because it's all about speed and precision, in fact, most people die before they reach the highest rank. The grand master of my dojang is about 80, and he's got two more belts (and each equates to 7-10 years of training) Trust me, you aren't the only one sparring with black belts after a year of martial arts. Usually, if you're sparring kids, they get lazy around blue belt, and they get worse, and worse, and worse.

Eldar are super quick, and as crazypsyko666 said all a parry is is flicking a weapon out of the way and there is no change in difficulty wheter your opponent is strong or weak.
Ever tried fencing?

Whats more as far as I know (not that I'm a real Eldar) but thier armour is supposed to harden at the point of impact, suddenly becoming stronger than it was in that particular place. It also moves with the wearer so the Eldar's arm wouldnt twist akwardly against his armour. I imagine this probably makes it more difficult to break bones.

So, strength isn't everything, but we all know who'd win in an arm wrestle.

But again, there is the problem of reach. Although the Eldar would be fast, they would HAVE to kill or critically injure the marine in one blow. Otherwise, the SM can easily land a blow (as he has a greater reach)

lemon detective wrote:So, power is not everything in a fight - the ultimate fighter would have a balance of the two.

Theoretically, the ultimate fighter would have as much of both as possible. They may have to strive for balance when one is precluding the other, but usually they go hand in hand.

Eldar Own wrote:all a parry is is flicking a weapon out of the way and there is no change in difficulty wheter your opponent is strong or weak.

Untrue. At least, untrue for combat with chainswords/knives/fists.

Ever tried fencing?

No one would be fencing in this situation. Fencing is a formal sport, that uses weapons which can be easily turned away due to being exceptionally light, and is not particularly applicable in an unmediated combat situation, much less one that has heavily armored combatants.

Orkeosaurus wrote:No one would be fencing in this situation. Fencing is a formal sport, that uses weapons which can be easily turned away due to being exceptionally light, and is not particularly applicable in an unmediated combat situation, much less one that has heavily armored combatants.

Well, this is true. No one would be fencing, but parrying is still a very valid method of defense. A parry mixed with a dodge, especially against a heavier weapon will throw the attacker off-balance and open them up to counter attack. This is what I would think the eldar would do. Yes, the eldar would be screwed IF the SM hit, but because of their speed and skill (which they would have in spades) they could win.

(I've always thought fluff-wise the eldar would be T2, so I'm biased in fluff terms)

Think about it this way in real life terms: A big angry brute with the fighting experience of a child fighting against a smaller person with a couple dozen years of experience.... who would win? (Note, I don't think that SM have the fighting experience of children. I think in comparison to the skill, elegance and practice the Eldar aspect warriors put into practice, this is a fair comparison, so don't give me any gak about it.)

Parrying a chainsword?
Eldar are probably more fragile even than your average human fluff-wise, but not enough to be seen as T2 (that's weaker than a greatchin lol)

As for experience, the SM has trained for war his entire life in REAL combat, while the Eldar Aspect warrior has mostly trained in a dojo. (eldar equivelent ) Also, while a SM may be geared for war, the Eldar only choose an aspect as a temporary thing. Only Exarchs do nothing else.

I reckon most humanoids would be screwed. Why? Quite a few people have referred to the Eldar as fast. As far as I'm aware of, they're not that much faster. Read fulgrim, where that small group of ECs (though they did have a primarch to help). With warriors that skilled, I reckon they're roughly equally matched, with the marines having an advantage.

I would rather like to see a Eldar Dojo.

I don't think that Eldar are that weak and puny, nor do I think Marines are all that strong/buff.

The Eldar will hit the Marine faster and can react faster, but won't do as much damage as a Marine.

The Marine will be able to cause more damage per-swing, but will be slower.

In the end, I think it balances out.

crazypsyko666 wrote:Well, this is true. No one would be fencing, but parrying is still a very valid method of defense. A parry mixed with a dodge, especially against a heavier weapon will throw the attacker off-balance and open them up to counter attack. This is what I would think the eldar would do.

Parrying is certainly what the Eldar would do, and they really would be shredded in an instant if they couldn't. However, strength is always an asset. A Banshee gifted the strength of a Space Marine would be able to parry more than a regular Banshee, and the strength difference is going to count against the Eldar heavily, even if they have enough experience and speed to match or even exceed the Space Marine over all.

Yes, the eldar would be screwed IF the SM hit, but because of their speed and skill (which they would have in spades) they could win.

Certainly; and some aspects (notably Scorps) could take a few lighter hits without too much trouble.

(I've always thought fluff-wise the eldar would be T2, so I'm biased in fluff terms)

Actually, fluff-wise they're slightly tougher than humans. They're done along the LotR style instead of the D&D style; better in pretty much every way individually (but dying as a race, etc).

Think about it this way in real life terms: A big angry brute with the fighting experience of a child fighting against a smaller person with a couple dozen years of experience.... who would win? (Note, I don't think that SM have the fighting experience of children. I think in comparison to the skill, elegance and practice the Eldar aspect warriors put into practice, this is a fair comparison

I wouldn't say so. A Space Marine fights since the beginning of their initiation (at least), and doesn't stop. They usually have hundreds of years worth of experience behind them. Now Aspect Warriors are very well trained, and completely obsessed with their form of combat, but it's still only one of their Paths. They haven't been a Striking Scorpion their whole life (unless they're very young), and they probably won't be Striking Scorpion in the future. Now, Eldar are extremely long-lived, and they'll probably be a part of their Aspect for quite a long time; they're also completely dedicated to that form of combat while they're on it, so they're probably going to be better than a Space Marine in their specialization. Still they're not better than a Space Marine by that large of a margin.

Exarchs are another story.

lemon detective wrote:
Delephont wrote:

Coming from a martial arts background, speed is nothing without power in hand to hand.

Then may I retort that you know nothing of the variety of martial arts.
Karate (the art i study (black belt BTW)), is a balanced martial art, with techniques designs for all kinds of people;
Big and powerful, and small and fast.

Coming from a background of various martial arts, Karate being only one of them, I declare that you know nothing of the 'variety' of martial arts. Power is a much greater asset than speed, and reach is a big one too. Being of a small build sucks, but that's when you go for the knees... But I have to say, Karate is a good one for most people. What teaching/ryu?

U'd be exceptionally screwed if you're vs a chaos space marine. These guys have had thousands of years of experience. Sure they've been in the warp alot of the time, but they've still got much more experience than normal marines-being blessed by the dark gods and killing generally everything, from people who look at you the wrong way to Spesh Mehreenz will generally make you a ruthless, tough warrior. Tis why they have double the attacks of a Spesh Mehreen in gaming terms imo.

Hell they should have better stats alltogether.

I mean 10k years of living a brutal life? that makes for a bad warrior!

You must be mistaken; as of the new codex, Chaos Space Marines are a bunch of angry teens who couldn't cut it with the real Space Marines, and thus decided to rename themselves "The Darkkillers", glue spikes to their face, and follow two daemon princes of Slaanesh into every battle.

JERVIS! your soul is mine!!!! MINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Orkeosaurus wrote:You must be mistaken; as of the new codex, Chaos Space Marines are a bunch of angry teens who couldn't cut it with the real Space Marines, and thus decided to rename themselves "The Darkkillers", glue spikes to their face, and follow two daemon princes of Slaanesh into every battle.

What teaching/ryu?

I used to be Ishinryu, but after a bit of a tiff between my Sensei and Ticky Donovan, we changed associat

we are now Kaichou-Kai, and offset of Kazen-Kai.

*Edit* and yes, ido like to attack knees (mostly just to throw them off balance)

The local ninjistu academy was a running joke where I used to train.

Skill trumps speed/strenght. And someone who is skillful, and fast / strong..well..is probably going to win! Not saying space marines are not skillful, just maybe less skilled than some opponents. While the 40k marine is a cloned perfect soldier, by human standards, an alien may have a higher level of skill means.

And as for the martial artsy talk, the first statement I wrote pertains to that too, (14 years multiple gyms and dojos). However, ever hear of punchers chance? or punchers luck? It just takes 1 shot to end it all on occasion! No matter how good you are, you can get caught flat footed a few times in your life! Take that with a grain of salt! I am by no means an "expert".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

lemon detective wrote:What teaching/ryu?

I used to be Ishinryu, but after a bit of a tiff between my Sensei and Ticky Donovan, we changed associat

we are now Kaichou-Kai, and offset of Kazen-Kai.

*Edit* and yes, ido like to attack knees (mostly just to throw them off balance)

I practiced Isshinryu for about 7 years. Its a good base foundation. I learned some boxing to compliment it. Fun stuff man. Its good to expand and see what others have to offer, for self defence and exercise. Lets you see the similarities in each discipline, its all ergonomics.

J-Roc77 wrote:Skill trumps speed/strenght.

See, I hate it when people keep saying this, because they make no attempt to quantify how much skill is better than how much strength or speed. If you've trained a for ten years and a week are you going to beat someone who's trained for ten years and has 50 pounds of muscle on you? Hell no.

Skill isn't always better then strength, and you can't use the possible range of human strength/speed in this instance since we're dealing in the superhuman. It really doesn't matter if Superman is coming at Bruce Lee like an untrained brawler, he's going to win.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

J-Roc77 wrote:Skill trumps speed/strenght.

Skill isn't always better then strength, and you can't use the possible range of human strength/speed in this instance since we're dealing in the superhuman. It really doesn't matter if Superman is coming at Bruce Lee like an untrained brawler, he's going to win.

This, a thousand times this. The only units in 40k that stand a decent chance against marines are those that are equipped to kill them, howling banshees and genestealers. Anything not equipped to handle a marine has little chance, gaunts, scorpions etc.

Skill is more of an assistance thing. Look I'm not saying it would be easy, but it can be done. Humanoids could possibly win against astartes, could anyone but the eldar do it well? No. They have been designed to be faster, stronger, smarter and effectively better than any standard humanoid being in the galaxy, and they are. STR and T say it all, but WS makes a huge difference. We have a goddamn stat to represent skill level, and the eldar have that in spades. While humanoids are at a distinct disadvantage because of Str and T, it isn't over. You can't win a fight you can't end, and that works for the humanoids as well as the SM.

P.S. the whole '1 lucky shot can end it all' works both ways. I don't care how much effort you put into making bulletproof ribcages, acid spit and self-engaged suspended animation organs, one lucky shot to the jaw is all that will ever be needed to take down anything in real life.

So if both sides have a shot of winning it, but the marines have the advantage. Then most humanoids are screwed in combat versus marines. I mean what this has devolved into is 'could elite close combat eldar beat marines regularly'. Obviously nobody is debating marines vs genestealers in hand to hand. And nobody is debating basic ork boys or guard vs marines in hand to hand. So yes, 99% of humanoids are fethed against marines in a melee battle. It takes the best of the best to beat them.
/thread

Grots can defeat Space Marines pretty readily, on account of being sneeky and having sharp teeth.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

J-Roc77 wrote:Skill trumps speed/strenght.

See, I hate it when people keep saying this, because they make no attempt to quantify how much skill is better than how much strength or speed. If you've trained a for ten years and a week are you going to beat someone who's trained for ten years and has 50 pounds of muscle on you? Hell no.

Skill isn't always better then strength, and you can't use the possible range of human strength/speed in this instance since we're dealing in the superhuman. It really doesn't matter if Superman is coming at Bruce Lee like an untrained brawler, he's going to win.

Bob Sapp makes me think of this. Look him up on you tube...come to think of it..he may be proportioned like a space marine too!! lol I mean he won some matches against Ernesto Hoost, but he was way past his prime. Nogeria beat him too. And I hate the Bruce Lee bandwagon....he lost fights too. People just pick him as #1 because of the movies. He was in no way the height of human fighting. A bit off topic there, my bad.

I do see your point, how to quantify where strenght cuts off skill so it no longer is a factor. I imagine it is higher up the dice rolls than the space marine / eldar matchup. The power lvl comparison there is a bit extreme...I mean Superman? Now an Eldar vs SM isn't really a Superman Bruce Lee fight. I think someone has already mentioned the WS side of the discussion. The strenght / toughness is not much of a blowout either. I guess my point is that while space marines are "perfected" and "enhanced" human killing machines, they are still limited by being human. It is comparing apples and oranges really. I mean they both are fruit, but that's about where it ends.

J-Roc77 wrote:I do see your point, how to quantify where strenght cuts off skill so it no longer is a factor. I imagine it is higher up the dice rolls than the space marine / eldar matchup.

No, what I'm saying is how do you quantify strength and skill in such a manner that allows you to say that one unit of skill is better than one unit of strength?

You can't say that the slightest amount of skill makes more of a difference than the greatest amount of strength, because it's simply not true.

In that case you're left saying X amount of skill is better than X amount of strength, but that requires you to come up with units of strength, and units of skill, and make them comparable in some manner. Now, if you were talking about regular humans you could come up with a scale for each (i.e. from "Scrawny but not Sickly" to "Olympic Powerlifter" and from "Untrained" to "Trained His Whole Life"), but we're specifically talking about the inhuman.

You don't have to make something no longer a factor to make it not enough of a factor to win.

The power lvl comparison there is a bit extreme...I mean Superman? Now an Eldar vs SM isn't really a Superman Bruce Lee fight. I think someone has already mentioned the WS side of the discussion. The strenght / toughness is not much of a blowout either. I guess my point is that while space marines are "perfected" and "enhanced" human killing machines, they are still limited by being human. It is comparing apples and oranges really. I mean they both are fruit, but that's about where it ends.

The Superman vs Bruce Lee was an exaggeration; it was just a demonstration of how any amount of skill cannot be better than any amount of strength, especially when there's no cap on the potential amount of strength coming into play.

Still, Space Marines are not limited by being human. They literally have far more capacity for strength than a human could ever possibly have. They're not perfected, they're transformed. Only if you increase the scope of humanity to include, well, Space Marines specifically would they be limited by being human, but that's a circular argument. I sort of feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but Space Marines have genetically a enhanced muscle structure, ceramic-laced bones, gooey blood, two hearts, and a carapace beneath their skin even before their armor, and really aren't human in any relative sense of the word. I mean, Genestealers are made from humans as well.

Bodichi wrote:If enjoying the hideous raping of Heinlien's best book is the key to becoming a mod I hereby dislike and abhor all mods and vow never to be one.

I may be a small, petty man, but it pleases me that you misspelled "Heinlein" in your short diatribe there about mods.

tee hee

Bah! I may be looking at this from the wrong view. I have however been on both sides of this discussion in real life. I have beaten someone bigger/stronger than me on occasion. As well as had my butt handed to me by a larger less skilled opponent. Heck..I guess I have been beaten by a smaller guy several times too. Cory is a wiry little JuJitsu guy had me tapping out in like 2 minutes..I had 30 pounds on him!

I guess my point again is, if I take an apple smoothie, add all sortsa nutrients to it, energy stuff, sugar ...and umm...rum. It is still an apple smoothie.

SMs can be as superhuman as all getout but if their brains haven't been turned into something that isn't made of brains, they can still be smacked silly by a good whack to the head or helmet.

Actually it becomes an apple smoothie with all sorts of nutrients to it, energy stuff,sugar and rum lol Which im sure if you drink enough will knock you on your butt hahah. Anyways Ive been reading and good points all, but Space Marines FTW. Ok not only have most marines been fighting on there homeplanets most there life(most Marine Chapters recruit from Death worlds or feudal ones take your pick) so basically they've had in field experience at least in CC fighting even from childhood. Compared to Eldar who tho live longer and all are not bred into fighting at early ages, they fight when they come of age I believe and start there path of the eldar and all?correct me if im wrong. Also The eldar dont fight as often as Astartes they pick there engagements cause there a dieing race, thus less experince for basic warriors. Back to Marine, so warrior kid gets recruited and then made into a superhuman, not only is he the best killer humanity has to offer now he has even more tools and a new more effective body to kill more things . Both train and cross train in there monastery or temple, but the average run of the mill eldar(which I believe is a Guardian or Avenger?) against the average run of the mill Space Marine(which is a Space Marine) The Guardian or Avenger is dead im sorry were going off ""basic many"" humanoids people not the elite of the elite. Space Marine has had more infield training then a guardian or avenger, is stronger personally I think faster but if not faster then tougher giving speed to Guardian and Avenger, Space Marine 2 out of 3 for win, speed isnt everything, exarchs, dont count people there elite of elite and dont count as most humanoids since there arent alot of them, just like Veteran Space Marines dont count.Banshee's would only when cause they fight with there asses hanging out lol, thus the Space Marine likes to draw out a CC fight with them, I know I would

Look at it this way. You can take a wiener dog. You can implant increased strength, toughness, resistance, etc etc. You can teach it how to fight other dogs.

But a komodo dragon is still going to not notice and eat it.

Thats the marines. They are are uber human machines and in fluff do well against most races. But they are still humans. Eldar are complete aliens. The space monkeys from planet Banana are aliens. Their physiology is different, just completely different. They may be weaker and faster, but their speed may be such that they are multiples faster than a human. An eldar aspect warrior may be able to move so fast the marine literally can't track its movements. It definitely follows fluff.

What use is a great battleaxe if your opponent just stuck you twelve times with their own power blade, and already danced off to wack the next squad?

true, if your enhancing something, in this case a human, theres only so far you can go before it doesnt get any stronget/quicker etc. Whereas with an eldar its standard reaction time or speed may be so much more than a humans than you cant match it even by genetically enhancing it.

Marines arent human anymore though. You have a stupid example, thats like taking a wiener dog, making it into a wolf, and saying well its still a dog. Its like taking a honda civic, and putting a honda civic frame of a lamborghini. They both look slightly similar, but one outperforms the other in terms of everything but gas mileage. And the imperium has more then enough gasoline.

Look at what goes into making a marine. Super strong muscles, multiple organs, fused bones, and amazing power armor that he wears easily. Not to mention the crazy reaction time, practical fearlessness, and intelligence. They might have their heads up their ass religiously, as they are brainwashed, but marines are the smartest AND strongest of humans. Modified to perform in any which way. If I can extend my arm for a complete punch in under a tenth of a second, benchpress two tons, run 100+miles without a problem, breathe poison, and have a bullet bounce off my skull, im barely human.

Like I have said, it takes the elite of other races, equipped to kill marines at that, to take out marines. Hell banshees dont even do that good against marines on table top if they dont have farseer back up.

Eidolon wrote:Marines arent human anymore though. You have a stupid example, thats like taking a wiener dog, making it into a wolf, and saying well its still a dog. Its like taking a honda civic, and putting a honda civic frame of a lamborghini. They both look slightly similar, but one outperforms the other in terms of everything but gas mileage. And the imperium has more then enough gasoline.

Look at what goes into making a marine. Super strong muscles, multiple organs, fused bones, and amazing power armor that he wears easily.

Like I have said, it takes the elite of other races, equipped to kill marines at that, to take out marines. Hell banshees dont even do that good against marines on table top if they dont have farseer back up.

Agree, this basically what I was trying to say but you summed it up in alot less words lol

Eidolon wrote:Marines arent human anymore though. You have a stupid example, thats like taking a wiener dog, making it into a wolf, and saying well its still a dog. Its like taking a honda civic, and putting a honda civic frame of a lamborghini. They both look slightly similar, but one outperforms the other in terms of everything but gas mileage. And the imperium has more then enough gasoline.

Look at what goes into making a marine. Super strong muscles, multiple organs, fused bones, and amazing power armor that he wears easily.

Like I have said, it takes the elite of other races, equipped to kill marines at that, to take out marines. Hell banshees dont even do that good against marines on table top if they dont have farseer back up.

To an eldar, to a Nid, humans ARE weiner dogs.
Their muscles still work on the concept of human muscle tissue. Alien tissue will, has to work on something completely alien.
Lets make it simple. Marine vs. genestealer. Marine loses
Marine vs. Allosaurus. Marine loses.
Marine vs. a hominid thats wearing a Power field. Marine can't get to it.
Marine vs. a human in a terminator suit. Marine loses.
Marine vs. bloodletter. Marine loses.
Marine vs. Dracula. marine loses.
Dracula vs. Chuck Norris. Dracula loses.
Chuck Norris vs. John Wayne. Chuck Norris loses.
Marine vs. a dalek. Marine beats entire dalek race. before breakfast.
Ok I've kind of meandered off topic haven't I...

Also, if they wanted too, im sure the hive mind would be able to change his nids so that they can beat marines by making thier muscles etc. different so that a marine would be totaly out-witted out-strengthed etc.

Also consider this, if you think that a Marine could adapt to anything, just set a Carnifex on him, its so big and strong it would just eat him, superpowers or not.

I thought this was thread about if Space Marines could best other humanoids(Eldar, Necrons, Humans, Tau) anything with two legs and two arms

Lord Chiasson wrote:I thought this was thread about if Space Marines could best other humanoids(Eldar, Necrons, Humans, Tau) anything with two legs and two arms

A carnifex has two arms and two legs. Occasionally it has more arms...

Marine vs. Hive tyrant. Marine vs. Lictor. Marine vs. Bob from Accounting.

lol I thought all Carinfexs had at least four arms, two being like tiny like a T-Rex proably longer tho not sure, and Why make one with two when you can have one with four? lol anyways human ingenuity can always come into play if were going to play Space Marine still a human card(tho IMO they very diff), thus there pwnage still is assured lol. Oh its a giant carinfex, let just run to the side of of it and attack it from the side or rear cause its reflexes are slower then mine, oh and so it doesn't stomp me ill jump upon its back, or for better measure just wait till you scream at me to try an intimidate me and ill throw a frag/krak/melta(take you pick) gernade down your throat, it may take awhile but dont worry carinfex you will be granted death lol human ingenuity Game, set, match lol

Why would a carnifex try to intimidate you? It wants you not moving on a permanent basis. It doesn't know what intimidation is. It does know how to make a really good strawberry margarita, however...

Lol, I would figured as all giant Animals do they(which im guessing the Carnifex has the intelligence of) would just scream at you out of instinct like a bear roars or a lion to show prowess over its prey, thus the grenade in the mouth . Hey we should have a party with that Carni

Well its unversally known that Carnifexes make the best bartenders. Its Imperial propaganda about the whole killy killy thing.

Nids are not humanoids as they have an exoskeleton. Beat that argument.

Your wussy definition will not avail you!

A humanoid is a hybrid term from Latin humanus "human" and the Greek -oeides expressing likeness. The term was coined in the year of 1918 to refer to fossils considered close to human but not strictly human, including species now classified as Homo such as the Neanderthals.

The term more generally refers to any being whose body structure resembles that of a human, including upright stance and bipedalism. This includes anthropomorphic creatures in mythology as well as humanoid robots, especially in the context of science fiction and fantasy fiction. An android or gynoid is a humanoid robot designed to look like a male or female human, respectively, although the words are frequently perceived to be synonymous.

Most of the aliens in television and movies are presented as humanoid. Occasionally a rationale for the similarity of disparate alien races all sharing humanoid body structure is presented. For example, the episode "The Chase" of Star Trek: The Next Generation explained the humanoid denizens of the Star Trek universe by advancing the story of a primordial humanoid civilization, the Ancient humanoids, that seeded the galaxy with genetically-engineered cells that guide evolution toward humanoid life (see panspermia). In Stargate SG-1, many if not all of the aliens encountered are human, and this is explained by them having traveled from Earth in the distant past (See Children of the Gods). In most cases, like the classic Doctor Who serials, the reason for the similarity is not explained (although The Big Finish Productions audio play Zagreus offers a more sinister explanation: that the time lords may have seeded the universe with biogenic molecules so that only intelligent species that approximated the Gallifreyan humanoid norm would develop), and it is regarded simply as a dramatic convention or artistic license, requiring suspension of disbelief.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanoid

"Body structure resembles that of a human"

Like being 20 feet tall and wearing your bone structure as a coat?

A humanoid is just anything that resembles a human in shape. 2 arms, 2 legs and a head on top of a torso are about all the requirements you must meet. A statue can be humanoid, a robot can be humanoid, and the exoskeletonized bugs from mimic are humanoid.

On a slightly more topical note- we are assuming the Marine has his powered exoskeleton, or armor, are we not?

And a final point for those natural scientist out there- would the Black Carapace be a form of exoskeleton, even though it is technically under the skin? A solid bone vessel for your organs is usually the basic idea behind an exoskeleton, but I don't know if coating it with skin turns it into an endoskeleton or not.

Edit- Frazzled beat me to it!

Lol, im sure Carfinex would make an excellent bartender, if it wasn't tying to consume all life . Anyways besides that im still sayin Space Marines/Chaos Space Marines CC Gods fluff wise. And Humans do have there Ingenuity as ive sayed before great advantage doing more with less(just ask Farseer Macha lol ), which I can give alot of different examples of if you like

Gitzbitah wrote:
On a slightly more topical note- we are assuming the Marine has his powered exoskeleton, or armor, are we not?

i see no reason why the marine should fight naked while everyone else gets armor.

Eidolon wrote:"Body structure resembles that of a human"

Like being 20 feet tall and wearing your bone structure as a coat?

He's kinda got you there Frazzled.

On the same note, I suppose SOME tyranid creatures (such as Genestealers) could be counted as humanoids.

Kilkrazy wrote:SMs can be as superhuman as all getout but if their brains haven't been turned into something that isn't made of brains, they can still be smacked silly by a good whack to the head or helmet.

I don't know about their brains, but the membrane surrounding their brain, their skull, and the blood in their brain have all been significantly altered. This is going to change the way they react to head injuries quite a bit.

Eldar Own wrote:Also, if they wanted too, im sure the hive mind would be able to change his nids so that they can beat marines by making thier muscles etc. different so that a marine would be totaly out-witted out-strengthed etc.

While I'm not sure why Tyranids are being talked about, the Tyranids did use Space Marine DNA to create the Tyrant Guard.

Frazzled wrote:Their muscles still work on the concept of human muscle tissue. Alien tissue will, has to work on something completely alien.

There is a huge amount of variation in the strength of human muscle tissue. If my arm was a strong as my tongue I could probably throw someone through a wall.

Plus, it's just as possible that alien muscle tissue could never compare to human tissue, and in universally weaker. We just don't know anything until you actually look at how strong they're described in the fluff; where Space Marines are always significantly stronger than Eldar.

nah size is not a requirement. King Kong is a humanoid, but I thought I'd let that one slide.

How about your average lowly Landsraat trooper with Holzman shield and poisoned knife? Marine can't get through the field.

I'm afraid you've lost me there, frazzled. What is a Landsraat or a Holzman shield?

Emperors Faithful wrote:I'm afraid you've lost me there, frazzled. What is a Landsraat or a Holzman shield?

Dune, soldier from one of the Houses. Your basic grunt-you know harkonnen dog, Atreides scum, the usual.

Holzman shield was the long name for their personal shields. invulnrabel to all but slow moving weaponry. Marines wouldn't know that. Bolters would be irrelevant.

I'd also nominate a Tanu or Firvulag warrior. Pallol One Eye vs. a marine chapter Master or Librarian. Nice!

Lol so now were doing cross universe battles? This shall never end haha. Space Marines are beast end of story, any humanoid up against them CC one on one(and if there naked then Marine def going to win but both have to be naked lol) Marine FTW. And the Black Carapace I believe just acts as an interface to the Power Armor, I dont believe it provides any added protection.

I heard somewhere black carapace is slightly better then IG flak armor actually.

I stand corrected on that then, But my other statements im sticking too

If the bolters proved ineffective against the Landsraat, wouldn't the marine throw himself into CC and THEN pummel the thing into the ground?

As for other universes...Star Trekkies? Dead.
Star Wars? Dead. (except mabye Ewoks)

Genestealers are probably on the threshold of humanoid. They're a little gribbly, but still sort of human. They've got four arms, but their heads are somewhat human.

(Also, we already have a thread going for Space Marines fighting soldiers from other universes!)

If we are doing cross unniverse, then how about, one on one, no ranged, Jedi verus Marine?

THIS IS NOT THAT THREAD!

THIS IS!

A jedi is a humanoid, isn't s/he/it?

40K Background
Debate and discuss the rich background of the Warhammer 40,000 universe.

THREADS ARE NOT RELATED TO STAR WARS UNLESS SPECIFICALLY DECLARED TO BE SO BY THE OP

CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Star Wars? Dead. (except mabye Ewoks)

I can see it now. Just like in that dawn of war 2 trailer. A big iron clad stomps out of a drop pod. "I HAVE COME TO PURGE IN HIS...two big logs fly down from trees and crumple the poor old marine.

Or...can you imagine the effect a bolt round would have on an Ewok? *evil grin*

nobody is listening to Orkeosaurus, are they?

On a thread about sex and orks, we're supposed to listen to ORKeosuaurus?

Emperors Faithful wrote:If the bolters proved ineffective against the Landsraat, wouldn't the marine throw himself into CC and THEN pummel the thing into the ground?

As for other universes...Star Trekkies? Dead.
Star Wars? Dead. (except mabye Ewoks)

So so wrong. in the game of marines vs. star trek even the lowly redshirt would shine like a god.
Phaser/disruptor set to maximum disintegrates its target. Think a much more efficient gauss gun. Pzzap!

Emperors Faithful wrote:If the bolters proved ineffective against the Landsraat, wouldn't the marine throw himself into CC and THEN pummel the thing into the ground?

As for other universes...Star Trekkies? Dead.
Star Wars? Dead. (except mabye Ewoks)

In Dune, the shield technology is more effective the faster the incoming attack (missile/punch) is moving. It is necessary to infiltrate a blade inside the shield by a fairly slow movement, then push it home. Hence the reason why poisoned blades are so common.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:If the bolters proved ineffective against the Landsraat, wouldn't the marine throw himself into CC and THEN pummel the thing into the ground?

As for other universes...Star Trekkies? Dead.
Star Wars? Dead. (except mabye Ewoks)

In Dune, the shield technology is more effective the faster the incoming attack (missile/punch) is moving. It is necessary to infiltrate a blade inside the shield by a fairly slow movement, then push it home. Hence the reason why poisoned blades are so common.

Which always led to the question, wouldn't a guy with a holtzman shield and wearing kevlar full plate and a gas mask be pretty much invulnerable to attack (except to lasguns of course)? ALthough unkillable by marines, they'd get a nasty surprise from IG grunt #124546748241482418521 and his trusty Kantrael pattyern lasgun.

I think it has been discussed at some length, why train up a lot of soldiers when you could drop a bomb containing a shield and a laser on the enemy base.

It's SF, isn't it. Frank Herbert just wanted to get away from technology based stories.

Dune reads more like a big poltical thriller at times then a scifi, still sweet though.