I must just be cursed. I keep trying different things.

Exalted Hero, steed of slaanesh, sword of might, blasphemous amulet, bloodcurdling roar, shield.

I took this guy and charged a white lion chariot, thinking I'd put some serious hurt on the thing and avoid it charging into my more valuable units. White lions ASF, 2 hits, 2 wounds, 2 failed saves, champion is dead. He's only T4 and has a 2+ save, how does anyone expect something like that to survive in fantasy? In 40k sure that's really tough, but when your save is modified to 4+, the odds of you dying get pretty high.

In that same army, I tried blocks of 12 chaos warriors. I've been reading that my usual tactics of taking 6x3 18 warriors or better for me, 5x4 20 warriors is a horrible waste of points and I shouldn't ever do that. 12 is easily enough, after all.

Well, his archers spent the first couple turns as I advanced taking down a rank of each. Now they're just one line of warriors. When we finally got to combat, what happened? Well, I consistently lost by 1! He had small units, too. Units that just barely outnumbered me. Unit that wouldn't have outnumbered me if I'd had that extra rank to start with, not to mention I'd still have a rank bonus when I got to combat. A difference of winning by 2 in most of those combats, rather than losing by 1. And with a crappy Ld 8, all my units ran every single time they were offered a chance.

I brought hounds to screen, but that did little - first of all he was on a hill, so he could ignore them, but in the first turn he just targetted all three units of hounds and each one was wiped out, just by archers shooting. He didn't even have a lot, just two units of archers and a single bolt thrower. How are hounds supposed to protect anything, they just die in one volley from anything at all. Following that, the marauder horsemen I had planned to use to flank things took a hit, lost 3, panicked and ran. Figures the one time I don't put a mark of Slaanesh on them, that happens - but losing 3 of 5 means they're pretty much useless anyway, and that was on a bad roll on his part.

What's the point? Aren't chaos warriors supposed to be awesome and tough? They just take a beating and then run away like chumps. ASF, hatred, killing blow, Warrior Elite, these rules are all over other armies and they make their poor stats end with better results than chaos's usual straight-up 3+ to hit. A bad roll to hit can be mitigated by hatred, easily. My warshrine wouldn't miss 4 of 5 attacks if it had hatred.

Here's my point: Spend the extra 80 points or whatever on an extra rank of chaos warriors. It's NOT a waste. Spending 250 points on 12 of them that are just going to suck, run, and die and give the enemy a banner is a waste. Adding 80 more so they can WIN and KILL the enemy makes them worthwhile. This game relies on two players rolling small handfuls of dice against one another, and the standard deviation means that fairly often, you'll miss more attacks than you should, or fail more armour saves than you should. It's not ALL about luck, but when the enemy is ahead of you in static combat res, they've effectively already killed 3-4 of your guys and now you're struggling to win. Even up the odds a bit.

As far as the characters go, I'm at an impasse. In my VC army I have 3 vampires that are naked. They always seem to survive. They take a wound here and there, but it gets healed and they go on. My chaos characters? Anything with 2 attacks easily hacks off their 2 wounds. A knight and a horse will kill them. I really don't know what to do anymore. Everything costs so many points, but has no special rules. They just sit on high WS and T, and pray it's enough. It never is. And then with their low Ld of 8 [even sorceror lord and daemon princes], they're very likely to run if they ever lose combat at all.

really?

Unless this is a troll, I have a very hard time buying anything you're selling here.

Chaos is a terribad army, but they have disgusting survivability and depend on their characters to do their heavy lifting.

One thing you definitely want to look into, though, is that the 4x3 unit is a last edition staple that is worthless this edition. 5x3 is the bare minimum.

Also the lions in a HE chariot don't have ASF, meaning you should have autokilled the chariot, assuming the 1 str 3 attack and the 1 str 4 attack from the elf didn't rock your chaos champion.

The White Lion warriors riding it do, though.

Sounds like you just had some unfortunate rolls and that your opponent had some really good rolling.

Agree with Jin.

Try again, perhaps things will work out differently.
O, and the idea that taking more guys in a unit means that they will survive shooting is a fallacy. You will end up with the same number of models (just in fewer units) and they will end up taking the same number of wounds and losing the same number of guys.

Just remember, if T4 2+save is weak what is T3, 5+save?

Or, and I know this is going to sound stupid, but you could put your character in a unit instead of running him around on his own. Charging your hero into a chariot by himself was not a smart idea.

Why warriors? You should have Marauder Fast Cav and KNIGHTS!!!!!

1. Take a Ward Save.

2. Take a Great Weapon. If you're going to charge your character at a Chariot, make sure he's equipped to do so.

3. Run your Warriors in 2 Ranks of 6.

4. Grab some Chaos Knights.

5. Of course a Vampire is going to survive, He can re-gain wounds!

I really don't know what else to say.

Cryonicleech wrote:1. Take a Ward Save.

Oh yeah, chaos has LOTS of those, let me tell you. What is it, like... one? Against non-magical attacks only, and it's incredibly expensive? That will rarely help.

Cryonicleech wrote:
2. Take a Great Weapon. If you're going to charge your character at a Chariot, make sure he's equipped to do so.

He's mounted, that would only make him S6. Not enough, and they still ASF, so what difference does that make? I've considered a flail....

Cryonicleech wrote:

3. Run your Warriors in 2 Ranks of 6.

That's what I did. It's not enough. The enemy's got more combat res, and I need to roll very well to win combat by enough to expect them to run.

Cryonicleech wrote:
4. Grab some Chaos Knights.

Yes, a unit with next to zero combat res that depends on rolls entirely and are only Ld 8. I tend to NEVER cause my enemy to break and get charged in the flank.

Spellbound wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:1. Take a Ward Save.

Oh yeah, chaos has LOTS of those, let me tell you. What is it, like... one? Against non-magical attacks only, and it's incredibly expensive? That will rarely help.

Wouldn't it have helped in the scenario posted?

Even white lions get ASF? ( speed of asuryan ) ?

wow -_-

malfred wrote:

Spellbound wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:1. Take a Ward Save.

Oh yeah, chaos has LOTS of those, let me tell you. What is it, like... one? Against non-magical attacks only, and it's incredibly expensive? That will rarely help.

Wouldn't it have helped in the scenario posted?

Yep. It's just too bad it's really only useful in that kind of situation, and costs 35 points, leaving me with....not enough to buy a worthwhile magical weapon. This brings me back to my thinking of maybe giving this guy a flail, but again why should chaos pay 35 for armour that gives a 4+ versus nonmagical while DE pays the same amount for a necklace that gives a 4+ if the enemy's S3, and a 2+ if the enemy's S5?

Though I have found the weakness of the pendant though, that being if the attack has no S, you get no save. Spells that wound on a 4+ or do an auto-wound, for example.

I just think it's funny that another suit of armour chaos has, the Armour of Zhrakk, disallows you from giving others your leadership - but a sorceror lord can wear it and lose nothing from it - his leadership is the same as half the army anyway!

LunaHound wrote:
Even white lions get ASF? ( speed of asuryan ) ?

wow -_-

Should be just the dudes in the Chariot, not the lions themselves, iirc.

Heh... yeah, only the Elves themselves get it, not their bloody horses.

Chaos is definately NOT weak if you look at the stats, compared to most other races they have High weapon skill, high toughness and strength, high saves and above avarage Ld. ld 8 is not bad in wfb were plenty of armies have to settle for ld 5 or 7.

Chaos' weakness is the high points value of the warriors, you pay for their above avarage abilities, and the lack of missile troops (which is the counter for HE ASF). If you lack mass, why not take along some Marauders to bulk up your forces? Their stats may be a bit lower, they are cheaper too, and outfight the avarage human, skaven, orc and goblin, hit stuff as well as elves and can provide the rank bonus you need.
Need some missile screens? Hounds of Chaos, marauder horsemen and Chaos Knights are Chaos' answer to shooting. They either draw away fire from the infantry or can engage the missile troops within two turns to prevent them from firing and killing them.

A lack of (universal) special rules, while you find it annoying, is not so bad for chaos. Chaos could be quite overpowered in previous editions (and they once had an extremely annoying special rule I call "The Chaos Farts on your Face phase"). Their troops are tough combat monsters if used correctly. There are few other creatures that can stand up to a Chaos warrior one on one. When we consider unit combat however, Chaos Warriors lack numbers by themselves, so need support to balance or cancel the enemy's rank bonus or do plenty of damage, which requires luck. You can't rely on the dice to help you, if you do, murphy's law means you only roll for hitting and killing and for ld tests.

It seems your defeat has more to do with luck than the quality of your troops and characters. Play Empire or Greenskins for a while and you'll see how indecent it is to complain about chaos being weak... I mean, for the love of Khorne, how can you say 2+ save (and T5!) is fething weak when the majority of troops have to settle for a save of 5+ and T3!

True, the universal ASF high elves have is very, very, very annoying (it's GW sanctioned cheating IMO), one only can try to find a way to get around that when facing them... And Chaos has little options but to close in for combat and suck up the damage as far as I can see.

As a HE player, I have no idea what your talking about.

Our only army wide strength is that we strike first which reduces the amount of damage we normally take in close combat, and possibly allows us to win.

Chaos Warriors, are stronger, tougher, and have an incredible armor save, our only real chance to win that combat is if they decide to attack our units of Sword Masters, if we send any other units to engage them we get killed horribly. Oh and our special units like Sword Masters, White Lions, or Phoenix Guard cost nearly as much as your chaos warriors.

I am starting to think that you became way to reliant on your Vampires incredible toughness.

Oh and if you want to deal with shooting, just use the Marauder Horsemen with throwing axes, they routinely kill off archers, and occasionally kill our bolt throwers.

citadel97501 wrote:
Chaos Warriors, are stronger, tougher, and have an incredible armor save, our only real chance to win that combat is if they decide to attack our units of Sword Masters, if we send any other units to engage them we get killed horribly. Oh and our special units like Sword Masters, White Lions, or Phoenix Guard cost nearly as much as your chaos warriors.

I am starting to think that you became way to reliant on your Vampires incredible toughness.

Oh and if you want to deal with shooting, just use the Marauder Horsemen with throwing axes, they routinely kill off archers, and occasionally kill our bolt throwers.

The marauder horsemen that are already dead?

10 archers at long range means 5 hit, 3ish wound. I get only a 6+ save so that means pretty much 3 are dead. Provided I pass the panic test, 2 marauders aren't going to be doing much.

Honestly I'm BAFFLED why you'd say I became reliant on my vampires. A regular vampire is T4 with 2 wounds and no armour, yet they consistently survive longer than my exalted heroes. I really don't know why. My exalted heroes die to a strong breeze.

Undead just have the advantage. I can go in with +3 ranks, banner and numbers, have my vampire kill 1 or 2, win combat and the enemy auto-breaks. Putting a character with my marauders, IF he survives, I may win combat by 1 or 2 but that's all, and the enemy holds. Next round I've got fewer marauders, and it gets harder and harder to win the protracted combat. And the second I lose, I'm gone - I can't pass any leadership for any reason, ever.

Other armies have leadership 5 or 7, but they have special rules to mitigate that. Skaven in units with ranks will be Ld 8, same as chaos. If their general is nearby they'll be leadership 10. Elf generals are usually 10, same with DE and dwarves. Lizardmen get cold-blooded, meaning even a Ld 6 skink has an excellent chance to pass. Empire has ld 10 generals too.

Chaos gets 8 across the board, as if they're self-reliant and don't need their general. The general's only a 9 anyway, with no special stubborn rules or anything. It seems the army was designed to be absolutely dependent on warshrines - it's the only way they can get a ward save or stubborn, and it grants units abilities and boosts their fighting prowess. I'm going to keep experimenting - what I don't want to do is the favour of the gods chosen deathstar that gets 3 warshrine buffs. I'd like to see how spreading it around the army works. Maybe dragon ogres or knights would be really terrifying if they got some of those.

Are you fighting the enemy 1 on 1? It may be fluffy, but with a MSE (multiple small elite) army, you need to combo charge and flank to win. Even chaos knights don't win against full res blocks often enough if they charge alone and in the front.

Chaos Warriors are not a plug and play army that any person can pick up and do well with (like VC and daemons). They have very few real options, most of their choices are the illusion of options. Their is a reason the all/mostly cav heavy magic w/ warshrines is considered the most powerful version of the list. If you are playing with a heavy foot component, then you are going to have big trouble bringing your might to enemy.

Empire has ld 10 generals too.

Empire has one, LD 10 general. The rest of them max out at 9.

Anyway, overall it sounds like you had one bad game from Elves. And Elves are suppossed to be good at shooting. With bows being move-and-fire, and your army sounding mostly like infantry, the archers could creep-retreat 5" and still fire at you, whittling away your guys. That, and it sounds like the Elf player did target-priority. He shot up your fast-moving-anti-archer units quick-quick, limiting your mobility. Then moved onto your slower infantry where he could just take his time. And, once your infantry was reduced to 1/2 strength, he didn't bother shooting at it anymore.

Did you have a wizard in your army? Maybe try one of the lores that has a lot of unit-movement spells so you can get into melee quicker.

Spellbound - can you tell us what the lists were that you and your opponent used?

Also - re: White Lion chariot - never attack it straight-on with a single Hero - S6 attacks are nothing to scoff at. They're meant to take down bigger stuff. Plus, they're 140 points. It's not like the HE player didn't pay for the combat abilities.

Again, if HE archers managed to beat you in CC by one, I would mostly attribute that to bad rolling. They're 11 points a piece with no armor and 1 S3, WS4. Even with ASF, they're nothing special in combat.

Most armies are ld 8. Only elves and dwarfs have ld 10 generals and most elves take the archmage general for ld 9 or the dragon general for ld who cares.

10 archers shooting at horsemen score 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, and you should have a 5+ save (mounted/light armor). With a rerollable panic check you should be fine.

Chaos have 3-4 ward save items (regen is basically a ward save).

Your exaulted heroes are probabally dying because you are sending them out to die. Its hard as hell to kill one in a unit with anything but a char killing char (killing blow or some such). A white lion mounted on a chariot should do .15 wounds to an exalted on a horse.
You got unlucky. Try some more games and then complain.

Wow, fighting infantry let you down. What a shock.

Look, if your battle plan is "walk across the board suffering their shooting then charge and pray they don't flee/flank", it's no surprise you lose. It's also not your army's fault.

Don't use fighting infantry aggressively. At best, they can take enemy charges and flee/flank. Instead use aggressive units, like knights/chariot/monsters, to get across the board and be charging on rounds 2/3. With chaos characters in them you should be able to beat anything you hit, and with high mobilty you should be able to set it up so that the countercharge hits your front.

The white lions in the chariot are only strength 5, not 6...The chance of them killing a chaos exalted hero with a 1+ save is about 1%. (1/2 hit, 2/3 wound, 1/3 fail save twice).

Marauder Cav should have a 5+ save, be immune to panic, and shouldn't be being shot at before they can can shoot.

Frenzy on demand knights are great and can take a ranked unit from the front easily.

What are frenzy on demand knights?

Chaos warriors sucking vs elves? Gosh, I never would have thought that.

Seriously, the warriors are pretty meh against many armies as they can be avoided easily and picked apart by shooting/magic. And if they happen to get to combat they lack the juicy special rules to hold up reliably. That's not to say I don't wield them myself from time to time for random fun games and because the models are cool.

Regarding the charge you had some bad luck there with the character dying to 2 str 5 melee hits, but tbh without flail, destroying the chariot wasn't exactly a surefire chance either.

@Skyth - ah yes, that's right. My Bad.

@spellbound. I think it's not the army that is weak, but your tactics. seriously, use knights. they are high weapon skill, high toughness, get two attacks each and have a 1+ armour save. you COMBO charge them with anything else and you win, as long as you're not stupid enough to charge them into sword masters, and even then you should come off fine. Your characters should ALWAYS be in units and should NEVER charge ANYTHING on their own. these really are basic principals.

I don't know what else to say.

Grab some Knights, they can easily wreck the front of a unit if they get the charge off.

I don't know what to say about warriors, but your friend must roll unusually high to be able to kill those warriors.

Marauders make cheap meat shields if you really want some.

Have any wizards?

Characters charging units, I'm experienced enough to avoid doing. Though sometimes a hero with the Aether sword charges knight units and comes out ahead, provided there's no BSB.

But a chariot I figure is fairly safe, particularly one of low toughness and armour save. I mean hell, I see it all the time. Basic elf with lance charges chariot, kills it after a couple rounds, even if he's not equipped with the S7 lance of doom.

As far as knights go, I must just live in a different world from the rest of you. I take units of 6 or 7 and have them bounce off basic infantry. 14 attacks, 9 hit, 7 wound, three 6+ saves passed. 7 horses, 4 hit, 2 wound, 1 save. Enemy has 2 ranks, banner, numbers. I have 5 wounds and a banner. I win by 1, the enemy holds because their general is Ld 10, and that's just basic WS3, T3 infantry with light armour and shields. The idea that 5 can charge the front and win combat baffles me, especially after they take one or two casualties [which is the reason I take 7, usually].

But I'm going to give knights another try. Who knows, maybe a warshrine buff to be S6 would help. A consistent problem I have with my units is my enemies getting lucky and passing a ridiculous amount of saves, which draws combat or makes me lose. I remember once doing 8 wounds to a unit of stormvermin with my 2x hw chaos warriors. 5 passed their 6+ save and, since I was using 2x hw, they proceeded to cut me apart with their halberds. Add in the rank difference and their numbers with the casualties they did and I lost that combat by like 5.

I do have wizards, but they get very expensive quickly, and have only a 4+ save. I have one mounted sorceror model, though I like giving sorcerors the Bloodskull pendant, so he tends to not get used.

If you get 7 wounds, only 1.165 wounds will save on average. You win by 2 or 3 on average, and they run 50% of the time, on average. God help them if you get a little lucky. God help you if they get lucky.

Always give Warriors Shields.

Always worth it. A 2+ save is nothing to sneeze at, especially for Core Troops.

Don't forget that Chaos can re-roll failed Panic Tests.

Cryonicleech wrote:Don't forget that Chaos can re-roll failed Break Tests.

Not sure who you're playing, but sounds like they're cheating. Chaos gets to re-roll failed panic tests, not Break.

Oh, Panic.

Always getting that mixed up.

IMO Chaos is not weak at all... I didnt read the whole thread but I read alot of your thoughts on why there weak and some of it makes no sense to me...

WoC has extremely nice survivablity... take a lord on jugger for instance... you can easily get his save to like 0 or even -1... Knights get a 1+ in cc do they not? Normal warriors get a 2+... oh and take a warshrine and it could go even lower! Theres also a chance of 4+ ward from the shrine. And you could always give your hero choice the crown that gives regen. Theres more then 1 ward save you can get for hero choices thats for sure...

WoC can also hit REALLY hard. You might rarely get to outnumber someone, but when core choices have a 2+ in cc... and they can take out quite a bit if you equip them right, its not a huge worry! I dont understand how you could say that the army is weak!

I've got your answer right here.

Tonight I played against DE with my chaos.

Sigvald the Magnificent was in a unit that received the 4+ ward save and stubborn buff from a warshrine.

An assassin with the venom sword did three wounds to me. TWO got through. They were only S4 hits.

That's right - two failed 2+ armour saves, two failed 4+ ward saves, and two failed 4+ regeneration saves. Then, of course, I failed the toughness test on 2d6 and Sigvald died.

THAT is why I think chaos is weak. Tonight sealed the deal. I'm just too unlucky to play an army that pays lots of points for "good" armour saves that I can't ever make. My guys die to the most pathetic attempts to attack them. My daemon prince [tried one out for the first time, Tzeentch] got 1, 2, 3, and 5 for spells [the worst ones, aside from Pandaemonium]. He got hit by Chill Wind from a DE sorceress. d6 S4 hits right? He took 2 wounds, and was halfway dead. He was soon finished off by another chill wind spell.

And that's it for me. Vampire Counts ho!

Wow... really? So because you rolled bad for armour saves the army is bad? I mean come on... I understand frustration and dislike of the army, but saying a 2+ armour save, 4+ ward and regen is bad? Seriously I dont know what to tell you... Its seems more like bad luck to me and not the army but if in your opinion is a *bad army* then I respect your opinion and maybe you should try another army or just a different list.

Spellbound wrote:I've got your answer right here.

Tonight I played against DE with my chaos.

Sigvald the Magnificent was in a unit that received the 4+ ward save and stubborn buff from a warshrine.

An assassin with the venom sword did three wounds to me. TWO got through. They were only S4 hits.

That's right - two failed 2+ armour saves, two failed 4+ ward saves, and two failed 4+ regeneration saves. Then, of course, I failed the toughness test on 2d6 and Sigvald died.

THAT is why I think chaos is weak. Tonight sealed the deal. I'm just too unlucky to play an army that pays lots of points for "good" armour saves that I can't ever make. My guys die to the most pathetic attempts to attack them. My daemon prince [tried one out for the first time, Tzeentch] got 1, 2, 3, and 5 for spells [the worst ones, aside from Pandaemonium]. He got hit by Chill Wind from a DE sorceress. d6 S4 hits right? He took 2 wounds, and was halfway dead. He was soon finished off by another chill wind spell.

And that's it for me. Vampire Counts ho!

So bad luck with your rolls makes an army weak?

Does other armies have something special blessing that doesnt fall under the same situation?

If you're gonna give them up. I've got a buddy who would be more than happy to buy them off you. :p. He's pretty lucky too. He might be able to be a little bit more successful with them.

This was just really icing on the cake. I consistently roll badly with them - that's what I've been complaining about.

Sure, they HAVE high toughness, they HAVE good saves - but I can't make them. For a player like me, I should pay fewer points for them, because I won't get out of them what I should. Unfortunately I can't just up and do that, and thus the army isn't suited to me - I pay lots of points for an army that doesn't deliver.

Sure, someone can use them effectively, I'm sure. You can see that in how well they did at the 'ard boyz semi-finals. Plenty of people came and did quite well with...the....oh, nobody placed using WoC. Ah well.

Dude, your army is not weak, from what I read, your DICE LUCK is!

Yeah...definitely bad dice-rolling.

Let's put it this way. I once ran a HE Prince on Star Dragon with a 2+ rerollable AS & 4+ Ward Save and failed about 7 out of 8 saves and subsequently had the Dragon crying over his master. Surely you can't attribute that to the unit sucking. Just because my relationship with fortune is not so stellar doesn't mean this guy should cost any less than the 600 points he does.

Well you can always go back to your VC.

Jin wrote:Yeah...definitely bad dice-rolling.

Let's put it this way. I once ran a HE Prince on Star Dragon with a 2+ rerollable AS & 4+ Ward Save and failed about 7 out of 8 saves and subsequently had the Dragon crying over his master. Surely you can't attribute that to the unit sucking. Just because my relationship with fortune is not so stellar doesn't mean this guy should cost any less than the 600 points he does.

Question is, does he ALWAYS do that?

Poor sigvald hasn't lived through a round of combat in months. I'm lucky I get to attack at all. Usually something ASF and higher initiative kills him.

If bad rolls are your problem, you shouldn't play VCs.

Just imagine how many summonings you'll fail.

assuming the ranked infantry is 5x3 (because you said it had two ranks) you should have numbers after killing 4 of them. last I checked US 12-14 > US 11. Can't Chaos knights cause fear?

Seriously, if you're failing 2+'s, it is NOT attributable to the book. But, suit yourself.

Jin wrote:Seriously, if you're failing 2+'s, it is NOT attributable to the book. But, suit yourself.

Seconded. The game is about trying to turn the odds in your favor, sadly you just sound crazy personifying your luck and saying it only manifests negatively when you play a certain WFB army.

You don't like WoC. That's fine, but if you don't like the heat stay out of he goddam fire. Play your VC, maybe that intangible concept of luck will be happier with you playing them and bless you with not always crummy die rolls. The game s supposed to be fun, have fun. You think the army you play affects your die rolls? It would seem the only way you have fun by winning, go play VC, ezmode it and win some games. Over and out.

Spellbound wrote:

Jin wrote:Yeah...definitely bad dice-rolling.

Let's put it this way. I once ran a HE Prince on Star Dragon with a 2+ rerollable AS & 4+ Ward Save and failed about 7 out of 8 saves and subsequently had the Dragon crying over his master. Surely you can't attribute that to the unit sucking. Just because my relationship with fortune is not so stellar doesn't mean this guy should cost any less than the 600 points he does.

Question is, does he ALWAYS do that?

Poor sigvald hasn't lived through a round of combat in months. I'm lucky I get to attack at all. Usually something ASF and higher initiative kills him.

Names are important, really they are
With a good name, that exalted is a star
Call him Korhgragaskangar The Eversaving
And you can quit your sorrow'd raving

Spellbound wrote:That's right - two failed 2+ armour saves, two failed 4+ ward saves, and two failed 4+ regeneration saves. Then, of course, I failed the toughness test on 2d6 and Sigvald died.

You just need new dice, dude. The odds of that many fails in a row is roughly 1 in 600, assuming your dice are perfectly average.

From reading this thread, I would say the problem is that your dice have actually been loaded to roll low. Either that or your opponent weighted his dice to roll high...

Don't charge the front of fully ranked troops with any knight unit. Sure chaos has the math behind to it to actually have a chance of running them down, but the odds aren't that good to do it on a regular basis. Use your knights to flank, or charge small or ranged units like every other knight does.

Since you don't need much to win when you flank, don't take any expensive options or extra bodies. Keep them cheap as you can, chaos knights are already expensive as it is without adding costly upgrades. That being said I do like mark of nurgle.

If your marauders and horsemen are getting shot up, do a staggered line formation like this


................12 Warriors..................12 Warriors..............12 Warriors...............


Marauders................................Chosen knights.............................Marauders..


The way this works is the idea that your warriors with their 2+ save are screening your more fragile marauders and knights who are standing in the rear out of line of sight. You will leave a gap between your warriors wide enough for whatever units you have in the rear line to charge enemies in the flank or perhaps charge units on their own, This will allow you to survive shooting attacks for the first 2 turns or so, because Str 3 bows won't effect your 2+ save and Bolt throwers ignore armour any way so its better for them to hit higher toughness warriors than the more fragile marauders.(naturally if hills are involved the situation changes) This is mostly for shooting attacks that won't degrade your save, IE handguns and cannons call for a different formation, Bows which is all HE and WE have, kill you by making you take lots of saves not by denying you them.

P1NK3Y3 wrote:

Jin wrote:Seriously, if you're failing 2+'s, it is NOT attributable to the book. But, suit yourself.

Seconded. The game is about trying to turn the odds in your favor, sadly you just sound crazy personifying your luck and saying it only manifests negatively when you play a certain WFB army.

It's more along the lines that if I'm rolling 1's and 2's for saves for skeletons, or zombies [which have none to bother rolling], I'm losing cheap models I can just bring back.

Do the same thing for a 21 point chosen with greatweapon and shield and he's gone forever.

I think we've beat this to death though, like Sigvald was by his S4 assailant.

.....REALLY? 2+ 4+ 4+, twice? REALLY?

That's the price you pay to play WoC. You need to make up for the lack of reuseable expendable troops via skill. You fail the save it's purely odds. Not the army book sucking You keep failing the same armor saves, it's just bad luck. That's all.

Just because you're removing those die rolls from armor saves, doesn't mean those 1's and 2's aren't going to manifest for to hit rolls, spells etc.

Long story short, play it how you will, what you want is an army that is very forgiving. So play your VC be done with it.

It could be that you tried to cook your dice the wrong way.

Stop rolling your command dice to make saving throws

You want an army that fails to dice rolls?
Pick up O&G. WoC got nothing on that stuff.

Da Boss wrote:You want an army that fails to dice rolls?
Pick up O&G. WoC got nothing on that stuff.

Awwww I play O&G AND WoC... But I have fun losing with my O&G cause I fail tha much... Im pretty sure EVERY SINGLE game I played with my O&G... Ive gotten massacred haha... but its so much fun!

Da Boss wrote:You want an army that fails to dice rolls?
Pick up O&G. WoC got nothing on that stuff.

But when you play O&Gs you have a completely different mindset. Losing isn't really a disappointment because you expect to lose and winning is an unexpected treat. WoC players are in that special place where they have the tools, except the tools are poorly constructed, which gives them false hope so constant defeat is more soul crushing.

avantgarde wrote:WoC players are in that special place where they have the tools, except the tools are poorly constructed, which gives them false hope so constant defeat is more soul crushing.

Amen to that. Nothing beats taking a solid group of elite warriors led by the most terrifying combat monsters in the warhammer universe and being beat by a smaller group of S3 T3 shmucks with a magic knife and half the rulebook's worth of special rules.

Spellbound wrote:

avantgarde wrote:WoC players are in that special place where they have the tools, except the tools are poorly constructed, which gives them false hope so constant defeat is more soul crushing.

Amen to that. Nothing beats taking a solid group of elite warriors led by the most terrifying combat monsters in the warhammer universe and being beat by a smaller group of S3 T3 shmucks with a magic knife and half the rulebook's worth of special rules.

Again... how is that poorly constructed? Thats unlucky dice rolls... Im sorry if core with a 2+ save in CC and 2 attacks each isnt enough for you... stop blaming it on the army because you get unlucky <.<

ugh. Missing the point. Point is, they cost too much for how little they get. Sure they have good stats, but NO way to get re-rolls for anything is crippling. No hatred, no healing.

Though I have been looking at the list with a very narrow mind. I generally go all Slaanesh, as that's what I've always done. Looking at the entire list there IS the nurgle spell that grants regeneration. Still, that's one spell you may not get and can be dispelled. Then there's Festus, but he doesn't make sense in a god-themed army. They've basically taken the god-themes out and encouraged the multi-god list, which I've never been a fan of. The real power is in multi-tasking I suppose. Still, no offensive re-rolls can be a pain.

The army requires superior tactics to make up for....I don't know, really. It isn't lack of fighting ability, but apparently it's lack of taking advantage of the game's rules. Most other armies can get cheap +3 ranks, cheap outnumber, cheap banner, same cost war banner, cheap additional +1. A unit of 12 chaos warriors has its expensive +1 rank, relatively expensive banner, and same cost war banner with no additional +1. A score of 7 to 3 that the chaos warriors have to make up with using dice rolls and not losing any of their number. You can say that the elite combat monsters, feared across the warhammer world can't go in unsupported and expect to win but....doesn't that not make any sense at all? Man, that unit of animated bones with a naked sorcerer vampire can take it on the chin and come out victorious, but those elite hardened harbingers of death need some support or they're goners!

Something has gone wrong here.

edit: Took a look at the FAQ for chaos. So Daemon princes are daemons for things that hurt them like Lord Kroak's spell and Engines of the Gods, as well as Lore of Light spells, but they don't have magical attacks. All the drawbacks, none of the bonuses. Nice! Gotta love it.

Spellbound wrote:The army requires superior tactics to make up for....I don't know, really. It isn't lack of fighting ability, but apparently it's lack of taking advantage of the game's rules. Most other armies can get cheap +3 ranks, cheap outnumber, cheap banner, same cost war banner, cheap additional +1. A unit of 12 chaos warriors has its expensive +1 rank, relatively expensive banner, and same cost war banner with no additional +1. A score of 7 to 3 that the chaos warriors have to make up with using dice rolls and not losing any of their number. You can say that the elite combat monsters, feared across the warhammer world can't go in unsupported and expect to win but....doesn't that not make any sense at all? Man, that unit of animated bones with a naked sorcerer vampire can take it on the chin and come out victorious, but those elite hardened harbingers of death need some support or they're goners!

Something has gone wrong here.

edit: Took a look at the FAQ for chaos. So Daemon princes are daemons for things that hurt them like Lord Kroak's spell and Engines of the Gods, as well as Lore of Light spells, but they don't have magical attacks. All the drawbacks, none of the bonuses. Nice! Gotta love it.

Yes, my observant friend. Warriors and Daemon Princes are not that good especially if you try to gear the latter towards melee combat instead of magic.
I wish GW would make all elite infantry playable or more useful but such is not the case. You're wrong that chaos can't get cheap reliable ranks, though, as you can get slaneesh marauders which are pretty decent, so how about using them and using couple units of knights as the real hammer/anvil-units.

Hammer/anvil requires an anvil. Not much of mine lasts past the first round of combat unless I take Sigvald, for whom my friends have created the "Tragic Ending" rule, which states that no matter the source, Sigvald will die in one round of combat to a vastly inferior enemy.

I thought the single Grave Guard that needed a 5 to hit and got killing blow was bad enough, but the S4 assassin with the venom sword while he had the 4+ ward shrine buff was the real nail in the coffin.

Sigvald - Special Rules:
Stupidity, Regeneration, Eye of the Gods, Mark of Slaanesh, Tragic Ending.

Then dont use sigvald? Easy fix if you feel he blows...

sigvald, doesnt blow, and as special characters go in the chaos army he's actually quite cheap. His benefit is in what he does for a unit anyway which is why he's so hard to kill.

@spellbound
honestly, im tired of reading your posts where all you do is complain about WoC. I play WoC on a regular basis at my LGS and I'm actually one of the top players around. If you have bad games with WoC find solutions, if you are too bitter and angry with the army to continue, sell it and stop complaining.
I agree that WoC are expensive, going into your example about Sigvald and the Exalted Hero, they are pricey for something that dies to a basic trooper's attack. You have to take that into account when you play. I wouldnt touch sigvald because the people who cant find a way to kill him would hate me for it and the people who can will just laugh. The exalted hero on the other hand is a classic case of 'buying all you can'; just because you can give your guy a gift of chaos and 50 points of magic items doesnt mean you have to.
As for warriors themselves, a lot of people have a problem with slow heavy infantry that cant be backed up by shooting, and the solution is what all the other posters have been saying. You need ranks; 6 point marauders at your service. You need to avoid shooting; knights, dragon ogres, ogres, magic, warhounds, horsemen, trolls, forsaken; all these things are fast and effective ways of killing shooting. Another good one is flying or very fast characters, Discs or SoS.
In formations for warriors, I almost never give a unit of warriors a banner unless it is at least 15 strong, its called point denial. You wouldnt give a fast cav unit a banner would you?

If you havent had success with any of these tactics and are too bitter to keep trying then please just sell the army or box it up in mothballs and go back to VC, which given the undead rules is infinitely easier to play with. Thank you.

With VC it's got the advantage of fear, but honestly any army with cheap expendable troops [skaven, empire] can take more advantage of the game's rules system than an army with heavy infantry can. Ogres have the worst time of it, followed I feel by WoC. Easiest are skaven, VC, Empire, and to some extent HE and DE - the problems with them is that if they want something killy, they can't buy too many of those cheap units - again, something WoC feels even more painfully.

I'm not really sorry you're sick of hearing it. Cognitive Dissonance can sting. I've still got to try HEAVILY mixing marks and the chosen deathstar [the only thing I've seen really work so far that consistently works and won't lose to bad rolling], but within that I've tried many different things. I haven't talked about it much but yes, I've tried marauders in ranks with shields and such with a cheap exalted hero [hw/shield or just greatweapon and Helm of Many Eyes - that one's done the best], but they rarely HOLD long enough for my heavy hitters to flank and do the damage. Same vice-versa with warriors trying to hold while ranked marauders join the fray. That's what got me taking Sigvald in the first place.

So I haven't just tried one thing in one game and am here to complain - I've tried a lot of things across many games and noticed that chaos pays way too much for what it gets. DoC has a recurrent theme of paying the same cost as WoC but getting way more out of it, and I don't feel DoC is overpowered, rather I feel that's how several things should be.

If you don't like hearing that chaos is overcosted and not competitive, then don't listen to me. Just go over to the 'Ard Boyz results thread and have it tell you instead.

I keep looking in on this thread for a laugh. Heck, ogres suck, boc suck, to are at a disadvantage. Welcome to mediocrity along with all the other forgotten armies. You're the only person who has decided to make a thread about to just for the attention all the while saying you could be playing VC and not complain.

You want to ask for ideas as for what to do? More power to you.

That also means you need to have the ability to accept constructive criticisms. Which you obviously do not. Instead it's a long list of complaints that you've experienced a statistical anomaly and that other armies are better than yours. Sorry the army you want to be good isn't in your eyes, my recommendation is that you don't attempt to take single tournament thread as a statistical basis (do yu have any clue how many unreported top three winners there were for 'ard boyz? Not every single one of those winners live on this forum.) There are so many varibles that are gone unaccounted for in your analysis of WoC that it's mindboggiling, the game is more than statistics. You want to win, quit whinning and play god damn VC. 'Ard boyz is not a universal judge of what armies are good, it can only give insight.

The game actually isn't more than statistics.

I mean sure you can choose to move certain places, but...that just modifies the statistics.

As far as attention goes, I got what I wanted to see - a general agreement that WoC pay too much for too little, and cheap swarm armies win out in the end unless the super brutes are incredibly careful and depend on their own "equivalent" of swarms to save the day.

In other words, the concept of the army insofar as "Warriors of Chaos" is concerned is broken, and it only works as more of a "Chumps of Chaos" backed up by a couple hardy warriors that hope they can tip the balance.

I can accept constructive criticisms, but in the case here what I've chosen to do is hang my head in shame at them, as they've all either been "depend on THIS unit to roll better!" which is something I can't really rely on or "support your elite infantry with a swarm of weak guys" which just does NOT fit the image I feel the army is supposed to portray. Something was lost between last edition and this one, in fact several things. The focus before was on the warriors - specifically the chosen, as everyone would take a foot and mounted unit of each and that was it - and nowadays it's not much different, still depending on a unit of chosen with warshrine buffs to be able to handle the riff-raff of other armies toe to toe.

It's not like I don't understand WHY DoC and VC are easier armies - they take out the LD element. Never again will you lose a combat by 1 thanks to bad rolling, roll that 12 followed by a 3 for distance and lose your lord and elite unit.

For someone that fails every leadership test they're required to make, yes it's the army for me. Maybe I suck at tactics? Perhaps, though I don't think it's a fair assumption to say someone cursed to fail every test they ever make whether charging or being charged "just can't hack it". I fail Ld tests with wild abandon in 40k as well so it's a rather recurrent theme that just happens to be utterly crippling in fantasy.

Have you tried the rapturous standard, I think you have a 70% chance of holding against anything if you have a bsb nearby, although, to be honest, I've never rolled a 1 or a double with it yet...

Right, you suck at dice, but you're using blocks of 12 warriors? You're absolutely right, warriors are a bit rubbish. They don't work, they can't take a charge and they're too dice dependent, I wouldn't bother. To be honest, I think the main problem with chaos isn't that they're too expensive, its that there doesn't seem to be any point taking warriors or chosen or in fact anything over chaos knights. Coincidently, without block units to put your characters in, they have to go in the knight units... what a shame, now you get some incredible hittiness there as well, you should have no problem breaking units from the front now. Marauder horsemen? Never take them without the mark of slannesh, and they're far from useless if reduced to 2 models. How is something going to flank charge you with a pair of them sitting in front of it and redirecting that charge?

Chaos definitely suck compared to Vampires, DE, Lizardmen and skaven (i'm assuming about that last one), nevermind Daemons. But all the other armies are in exactly the same boat. HE, Empire, Bretts etc. You're complaining that chaos aren't a top teir list, surely you knew that when you bought them? You made some bad army selections, some bad charges (your exalted should trash a chariot if he has a flail, if not you've got S6 lion attacks coming back at you) and took a ridiculously expensive character that doesn't even have a decent strength so can't make up for the weakness of hitting power in a warrior unit and you complain about your list. Fine, go back to vampires, or better yet, Daemons.

Have you tried giving your units the MoN?

The game is about chance, the only place statistics comes in is for the analysis of theoretical effectiveness.

For example, I play Brets, I get into a discussion with a buddy of mine. I want to take 60 peasant archers. He argues with me. 60 shots, 30 hits, 10 wounds on Chaos knights. That is an analysis of stat in regards to effectiveness against chaos knights. But, even though when you look at the odds of how things should work, you can even see in your case it doesn't always work that way. Randomness detrmines those results if things always happened because they statistically should happen it would remove and chance for pretty much any army that isn't daemons or vc. Just play magic heavy and quagmire, infernal gateway, pit of shades/lore og metal, and puppet your way to victory.

Or vc or go back to 40k. Long story short woc isn't working out for you learn from that then move the heck on.

Herohammernostalgia wrote:True, the universal ASF high elves have is very, very, very annoying (it's GW sanctioned cheating IMO), one only can try to find a way to get around that when facing them... And Chaos has little options but to close in for combat and suck up the damage as far as I can see.

ASF is a hassle... take chariots. If I am not mistaken the impact hits occur before the ASF attacks.

You are correct

For crying out loud, you're whining about your awful rolling. Warriors of Chaos are not a bad army, you've been unlucky. I play pure Khorne WoC and I've won tournaments with them. 'Expendable' VC infantry get ripped apart faster than they can be raised and my Chaos Lord butchers anyone he gets close to.

If you're so butthurt about gak rolling and you don't want to play WoC, then go play your precious VCs. Everyone's sick of your whining.

Spellbound wrote:The game actually isn't more than statistics.

I mean sure you can choose to move certain places, but...that just modifies the statistics.

As far as attention goes, I got what I wanted to see - a general agreement that WoC pay too much for too little, and cheap swarm armies win out in the end unless the super brutes are incredibly careful and depend on their own "equivalent" of swarms to save the day.

In other words, the concept of the army insofar as "Warriors of Chaos" is concerned is broken, and it only works as more of a "Chumps of Chaos" backed up by a couple hardy warriors that hope they can tip the balance.

I can accept constructive criticisms, but in the case here what I've chosen to do is hang my head in shame at them, as they've all either been "depend on THIS unit to roll better!" which is something I can't really rely on or "support your elite infantry with a swarm of weak guys" which just does NOT fit the image I feel the army is supposed to portray. Something was lost between last edition and this one, in fact several things. The focus before was on the warriors - specifically the chosen, as everyone would take a foot and mounted unit of each and that was it - and nowadays it's not much different, still depending on a unit of chosen with warshrine buffs to be able to handle the riff-raff of other armies toe to toe.

It's not like I don't understand WHY DoC and VC are easier armies - they take out the LD element. Never again will you lose a combat by 1 thanks to bad rolling, roll that 12 followed by a 3 for distance and lose your lord and elite unit.

For someone that fails every leadership test they're required to make, yes it's the army for me. Maybe I suck at tactics? Perhaps, though I don't think it's a fair assumption to say someone cursed to fail every test they ever make whether charging or being charged "just can't hack it". I fail Ld tests with wild abandon in 40k as well so it's a rather recurrent theme that just happens to be utterly crippling in fantasy.

I repeat: You need new dice, dude. Buy some and make them watch you melt the old ones down in the oven. That'll teach them.

One more thing. It seems you really need to learn how to deal with the pitfalls of the Leadership rules. This is a critical thing in WFB. If you can't hack it, then you should stick to your Vampire Counts crutch.

Cheese Elemental wrote:For crying out loud, you're whining about your awful rolling. Warriors of Chaos are not a bad army, you've been unlucky. I play pure Khorne WoC and I've won tournaments with them. 'Expendable' VC infantry get ripped apart faster than they can be raised and my Chaos Lord butchers anyone he gets close to.

If you're so butthurt about gak rolling and you don't want to play WoC, then go play your precious VCs. Everyone's sick of your whining.

QFT

Dice-complaining FTW

I played Kairos, cast a spell in the 1st turn, miscast, double 1. -> DoC is a crappy army

I played Manfred, cast a spell in the 1st turn, miscast, double 1. -> VC is a crappy army

I charged a large unit of zombies to the rear with my dark elf dragonlord and missed all my attacks, broke and ran from the table.
-> DE is a crappy army

etc...

The point I'm trying to make is that when discussing whfb, 40k and the like in the internez, it's more apt to use knowledge of statistics (averages,variances,mean values and the like) to help certain what the units may do in different situations where dice are rolled instead of highlighting certain cases where certain rolls were made which lead to certain unlikely resolution.

It is true, though, that "unbreakable" armies such as VC and DoC will remove certain random elements from their setup making them more reliable than many other armies and thus making them powerplayer favorites in uncomped tournaments.

I think you are too used to VC, and will offer this suggestion.


If you truly wish to play WoC, simply grab tome faster units to tie up those archers. I highly suggest 2 units of Chaos Knights, but in the end, it's up to you.

I've always used 1 unit of knights, and been generally unimpressed. Old models before, new models now, and since they're so cool I've always used them "instead of" the old ones.

Perhaps a bit of 40k mentality is in order here - I take 2 defilers because 1 just tends to die when the enemy uses "the anti-defiler unit" on them. So perhaps I should dig out the old mini-knight metal models and bring 2 units, and it might serve better than one. It seems like an awfully large amount of points in small numbers though.

And for the record, DE lord on dragon stands a WAY better chance than a chaos lord on dragon in the rear of a zombie unit. No matter what his weapon and equipment loadout, the chaos lord and dragon could miss all their attacks - the DE one on the other hand could miss all their attacks.....and then re-roll them all


Does anyone seem to think that this is actually a problem with WHFB's core rules? In 40k if my HQ fries itself....well first of all it has to do it like 3 times in order to die, but SHOULD that happen, the rest of the army goes on as normal. Take the Mannfred example for instance. Isn't it a bit....wrong that a newb with x army versus an expert with VC could win because Mannfred miscast and rolled snake eyes, and the army fell apart? That an incredibly deadly unit with a general and hero that's stubborn can go against a giant and roll a 12 when he yells and bawls? There's certain situations you can never really PLAN for, because the odds are low but when they happen, really pretty much end the game.

Must just come with the territory. Warmachine can have the same situations happen, and 40k, while it's less common, can still see 700 point power units running off the board or dying to weaker things - it's just usually less likely than yell and bawl - 12.

And Comrade Nikolai - yeah, actually I've tried that rapturous standard. I've given it consistently to my knights, actually, on the grounds that since they have little static combat res and are more likely to be luckhammered, they'd need it more often. For some reason, have yet to have it work.

I find it odd the backlash to dice complaining against an army like WoC - I've rarely seen skaven players complain about bad dice rolls because when they lose a unit, they don't particularly care - it's one of dozens, and cheap and expendible. When their ratling gun shoots the buddies next to them, it's one of five and the casualties are frivilous. It seems natural to me that the same player rolling boxcars for leadership or somehow killing several of their own men would have more grounds for complaints, as that unit was 300 points, not 60, and each of those friendly models he killed was 18 points, not 2. Two players with equally bad rolls, one playing WoC and one playing O&G are really in different classes when it comes to how badly they really are screwed by rolls.

Apparently it's not seen that way. I'm definitely seeing a lot of "if you roll badly, WoC isn't for you". Is that really how it is? WoC are for the lucky players that can have the good fortune to have their expensive troops and heroes escape damage and dish it back? I really hope that's not the case.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cryonicleech wrote:I think you are too used to VC, and will offer this suggestion.


If you truly wish to play WoC, simply grab tome faster units to tie up those archers. I highly suggest 2 units of Chaos Knights, but in the end, it's up to you.

I repeat though, I will take this to heart. Since I shelved the old models, this idea really just....hasn't come to me. Where one unit of knights rolls badly and fails/dies, maybe a second could pick up the slack and really tear some stuff apart. I'll give that a shot. Thank you.

No problem. I've had the same trouble with my Cold One Knights.

I would try using shields, but if you want more protection, perhaps MOT or MOS would be helpful.

Marauder Horsemen are also great.

Have you taken any magic, BTW? Does your opponent?

I've been taking Slaanesh magic. It usually amounts to "Everything panics from hellshriek, or I get ecstatic seizures off reliably and win" or "Those don't happen, and magic does little"

Tell you what though I LOVE that infernal puppet.

Up until recently I've been all Slaanesh, all the time. Competitive play has me considering branching out......very reluctant though. My 40k army is also Slaanesh, and I've had it all through Hordes of Chaos. I finally collected a unit of daemonettes and a keeper of secrets to go with my army when they changed the book and took them all out. Bah!

When they made Chaos 3 separate armies, a little part of me died on the inside.

Might I suggest taking a Tzeentchian mage? Sure, it breaks the fluff, but D6+1 hits and D6+1 Strength has the potential to break that Chariot before it even hits. Plus, the Third Eye is just fantastic, especially if your opponent is using High Magic.

Flames of the Pheonix on Spearelves means lotsa dead spearelves.

OK, we get your point, you think WoC suck. We don't agree. move on and play VC, or Daemons.

It is a hobby so you are supposed to have fun. And last time i checked i don't think anyone is getting a multi-million contract to play. However, if you are let me in on it so i can tryout.

Spellbound wrote:I've been taking Slaanesh magic. It usually amounts to "Everything panics from hellshriek, or I get ecstatic seizures off reliably and win" or "Those don't happen, and magic does little"

Tell you what though I LOVE that infernal puppet.

Up until recently I've been all Slaanesh, all the time. Competitive play has me considering branching out......very reluctant though. My 40k army is also Slaanesh, and I've had it all through Hordes of Chaos. I finally collected a unit of daemonettes and a keeper of secrets to go with my army when they changed the book and took them all out. Bah!

In this case, I feel for ya. Unfortunately current Warriors may require some mark mixing if you want to get most out from the army (competively speaking). I lost some daemons & beasts too as they became non-existent in WoC, but being a half glass full kinda guy, I think of them as starters of future beast/doc projects.

Spellbound wrote:This was just really icing on the cake. I consistently roll badly with them - that's what I've been complaining about.

And why did you bother US with that? What are WE expected to do about it? How did you expect we would console you? Send you new dice or what? What does all of this whining even have to do with what army you play?

I'm afraid you simply have no salient point. Perhaps you should write to GW. Complain about how they sold you an army that makes you roll bad all the time, then threaten to ragequit. Oh, and don't forget to heap some guilt on customer support, too. Yes, that should make them think twice.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:
And why did you bother US with that? What are WE expected to do about it? How did you expect we would console you? Send you new dice or what? What does all of this whining even have to do with what army you play?

I'm afraid you simply have no salient point. Perhaps you should write to GW. Complain about how they sold you an army that makes you roll bad all the time, then threaten to ragequit. Oh, and don't forget to heap some guilt on customer support, too. Yes, that should make them think twice.

What I was looking for, and found, was confirmation amongst my peers that chaos, being high-points but low model count, suffers more from bad luck than nearly any other army, Ogres being another big loser. Dice are still rolled and 1's always fail, meaning a skaven player can roll around 4 1's for armour saves before they equal one from a chaos player. Being only one point of toughness apart, they only take 1/6 less wounds.

Several have acknowledged it and while they are less butt-hurt than I am [which stems a lot from Sigvald's aspiration to consistently die to inferior opponents in one round of combat - he never HASN'T, and it's starting to become a regular theme with all my characters], they too see that when you've got an incredibly tough model that still dies after rolling 3 1's, when they come he's still dead.

Then of course there's people that play T3 armies and are jealous of chaos's T4. I've been told time and again "anyone with S4 T4 basic troops doesn't have any right to complain." Well if I didn't have to pay their high cost, I'd agree. Unfortunately, I don't.

Anyway, back to the part of the conversation I was enjoying. I'm glad GW has managed to BS their way into allowing any item to go with any mark [Mr. Slaanesh Champion, you have slain my mighty champion of Khorne! I shall grant you this magic-resisting collar as a reward!], and they've eliminated the rivalry between the gods, or at least reduced it to petty squabbling rather than direct antithesis. That being said, it's hard for us, the players who have dedicated themselves to one god or another for so long, to accept that and branch out. I feel DIRTY giving the Collar of Khorne to a Tzeentch BSB in a unit of Nurgle chosen so that he can have MR2 and a 3+ ward save when I roll that result up on a Slaanesh warshrine.

Mixing marks seems to be what GW wants now, and may have been what they had in mind when designing the army. I've already come to realize that they probably really wanted people to use the warshrines - it's pretty fluffy, and gives you more bang for your buck FROM the expensive chaos warriors. With +1S or +1A, those units of 12 warriors actually start to have good odds of consistently winning combat. +1 LD, causing fear or terror, stubborn prevents them running away as much.

MoN I avoid on my regular units generally because I'm worried about fear and terror. I've always hated that an Immune to x character in a non-immune unit loses the ability, but a stubborn character leads them along just fine. ONE unit could take the banner of rage, but I've just recently learned the ins and outs of how skirmishers flee and how you pursue them - I don't think I'm going to frenzy anything ever again.

There is nothing 'unlucky' about Chaos. An army is not unlucky, YOU are. You're failing on Ld becaue you're used to armies that don't have to worry about it.

Stop whining. Chaos is NOT weak, you're just unlucky.

Sigh... you are like partially right on saves and stuff but not quite... Say orcs have their save of what, 5+ in cc against warriors? While it might take 4 (less then that I believe) orc boyz dead to = 1 chaos warrior... whats the chances of him rolling 1-4? While you need like a 1-2 to die? It even out man... your just unlucky and your getting hurt about it... If you really think armies with a ton of models is better then go for... but I can tell you, I play an orc army with ALOT of orcs and what your saying is gak in terms of armies having more modles = better...

Spellbound, mind posting your list?

Cheese Elemental wrote:There is nothing 'unlucky' about Chaos. An army is not unlucky, YOU are. You're failing on Ld becaue you're used to armies that don't have to worry about it.

So an army cannot be unlucky, yet not being....USED to leadership tests means I fail them more often? Is there a certain way I should be rolling them?

Cryonic: What point level, and before or after I started experimenting with other stuff?

For the record I used 2 units of knights and dragon ogres at 2250 today and managed a tie against a thorek gunline that deployed badly but rolled like a god with his thunderers. I also rarely got a spell off, even without him touching his dispel dice. I feel pretty accomplished about that. My saves were decent! I just couldn't hit or wound anything much.

Whichever you are using currently.

Throek Gunlines are nasty pieces of work, and magic doesn't always work (I've played an opponent who could not cast Pit of Shades for the life of him)

Turn 1 miscast 3 dice, end magic phase. Turn 2 miscast 3 dice, used puppet to make IF, but forget the spell. Turn 3 miscast 2 dice, used puppet to let him cast a spell [yay dwarves]. Then that wizard died to shooting.

Before I began trying to use warshrines to make my units nastier, it looked something like....


Everything has mark of Slaanesh that can

Sigvald

BSB
fighty hero [greatweapon, helm of many eyes]
Scroll caddy or another fighty hero [tried steed of slaanesh hero with bloodcurdling roar to go with marauder cav, not realizing any old mounted character can be fast cav with a unit]

18 warriors, 2xhw/shield, full command, war banner
18 warriors, halberd/shield, full command, banner of rage
6-7 marauder horsemen, flails, musician sometimes banner too if I actually wanted to try to fight.
5 hounds
5 hounds

trolls or dragon ogres or chaos knights. None seemed to work well, but I really liked the trolls [even more when they had 4 attacks each].


I'm forgetting points, I think I was usually able to squeeze in a unit of like 10 marauders with greatweapons too - one of the luckiest units in my army, probably because I never expected much of it, so it consistently met or exceeded them.

Spellbound wrote:
So an army cannot be unlucky, yet not being....USED to leadership tests means I fail them more often? Is there a certain way I should be rolling them?

He's assuming that you're putting you units in position to fail ld tests because you're more accustomed to VC.

My most common way to lose units is by losing combat by 1.