A good friend of mine (Yuri) and I will be rolling out a big GT next June in Sarasota, Florida. We will be running a 40k GT, Fantasy GT and a Flames of War event. Bolter Beach is currently planned to take place during the first weekend in June 2010. This will be an independent Grand Tournament and we are planning to have lots of players attending.

What you can expect:
•Well run tournament with very knowledgable judges
•Challenging missions that are well thought out and extensively playtested
•Awesome prize support

We are hoping to attract players from outside the state of Florida. This is going to be a big event and we'll put lots of work into it to make sure everyone has the opportunity to have a great time. While we will have challenging missions and encourage competitive play we place the emphasis on great sportsmanship and beautiful armies. I have run two successful back to back 40k GTs in North Carolina the past two years and Yuri has been running big GW events for the past several years now.

I know it's sti a ways off but time sure does seem to move rather fast so I thought I'd announce our event this evening. If you have any questions please feel free to ask.

G

"Bolter" is a registered trademark of Games Workshop PLC, I'm afraid you'll have to change the name of your tournament or face the consequences.

Im looking forward to this. Putting it in my calendar now.

I might attend.

Just for people's information, there will be no Necro this year, so this may be the only 40k GT in the state in 2010.

I would love to see you make it out Mahu.

: )

G

I'd like to try making it as well. I'll pass on the info to my gaming club to post on our website. Thanks GBF, look forward to meeting you there.

Sounds cool, I should be able to attend, since I am coming from Jacksonville.

We will open a GT forum in the next month. You can field questions for all the gaming systems we will run. Yuri has run both Hurricon and Recon over the past years and is a great organizer. We are really looking forward to making this a top event for everyone who attends.

G

I might swing by- I live in Daytona Beach currently, but I might be up in Tallahassee by June...

I just wanted to let you all know it's official, we will be on the 2010 GW circuit.

: )

G

How long did it take for GW to get back to you about getting on the circuit? I sent them an email 2 weeks ago and nothing yet, I am trying to set something up for the mid-south region.

Good luck Fabius.

G

Thanks, having nothing but TX for most of 2010 prompted me and my local crew to act. I might migrate down to yours though.

It's going to be a good one for sure. I'd love to see ya there. : )

G

Let me see how my Spring semester falls into place, and the exact points value and I will try to make it.

More intel!

The 40k GT will be 2000 points.
The Fantasy tourney will be 2250 points.
We are planning a big event for the Friday proceeding the GT.

More details and website to soon follow!

G

Sounds awesome. I'll have to try and make it from TX.

Cool! We'd love to see ya there. Registration will open in January.

: )

G

Hrm...that's not TOO terribly far from Atlanta. Any chance of a group from up here going? Might be fun to make the trip....

Did I say anything about hte dice girls yet?

G

Bolter Beach is Open for Reservations!

Bolter Beach is a three day event in Sarasota, Florida that features the following:

June 4
• Club Royale 40k Team Tournament
Teams will consist of three members each. Each member brings their own 1500 point army. You will play four one-on-one games versus other teams over the course of the day. The team that accumulates the most battle points at the end of the day will we be rewarded with lots of loot!

• Lord of the Rings
We will have up to 10 tables (20 players) open and the top two finishers will earn their spots at Vegas in 2011.

• Blood Bowl
There will be a big Blood Tournament so bring your favorite team and show us what you’ve got.

June 5 & 6
• 40k GT, 2000 points
There will be up to fifty tables (100 players) open and the top two finishers will earn their spots at Vegas in 2011. All current 40k Codices are legal.

• Fantasy GT, 2250 points
There will be up to fifty tables (100 players) open and the top two finishers will earn their spots at Vegas in 2011.

Location
Convention Center
2383 Industrial Boulevard
Sarasota, Florida 34234
The center is right by the local airport and there are hotels in walking distance. Sarasota is located on the west coast of Florida and is home to the likes of Stephen King and other well known celebrities. This is a great place to bring your family for an extended vacation… you are less than two hours from Disney World!

Hosted by Steve Turner and Yuri the Devil of 40k Wrecking Crew and the Skul N Bonz Club!

Cost
• 40k Club Royale - $75 per team
• LoTR - $25 per player
• Blood Bowl - $25 per player
• 40k GT - $50 per player
• WHFB GT - $50 per player

There is no additional registration fee.

Send your payment via check or money order to:

Steve Turner
2717 Seville Boulevard
Apartment 5304
Clearwater, FL 33764

Make sure to indicate your name, which events and what armies you will bring plus your email address. We must have your email address so we can keep you up to date with our e-news letters!

Closeby Hotels
Sleep Inn Hotel Sarasota / Bradenton Airport Hotel
900 University Parkway
Sarasota, FL 34234
Tel. (941) 359-8558
Residence Inn Sarasota Bradenton
1040 University Parkway
Sarasota, FL 34234
Tel. (941) 358-1468

Hyatt Place Hotel
950 University Parkway
Sarasota, FL 34234
Tel. (941) 554-5800
hyattplacesarasotabradenton.com

National Tournament Invitations
The top two overall players from the LoTR, 40k GT and Fantasy GT will receive invites from Games Workshop for the Nationals in 2011 in addition to our other prizes. If one of those players cannot attend, the player with the next highest overall score will receive the invite. If a player has already received an invite from another event, then his invitation will be passed on to the next person as well. The National tournament will be held in Las Vegas in 2011, at the end of the first Indy GT season. The only way to attend this tournament is two earn an invitation by taking one of the top two spots at one of the independently run tournaments.

Questions?
Contact Steve Turner at moodhoney@yahoo.com.

Rules
We are very strict about the rules and want everyone to have a great time. There are no exceptions to any of the rules listed below:
• All models in your army must be painted and have finished bases. Models that do not make the minimum standards may not be used. Bringing an unpainted army doesn't just mean a zero in painting. It also means you don't play.
• All models must be WYSIWYG, or pretty darn close to it. A clever conversion that skirts the line, but draws applause from your opponent is cool. "My red bolt pistol is a plasma pistol" is not.
• Part of WYSIWYG is using the correct models: "I'm using Bloodletters on big rocks for my Blood Crushers because I don't want to shell out the cash." isn't acceptable. "I hand sculpted all my models" is probably is fine, assuming some minimum sculpting skill and they look like what they should represent. If you have a question email with pictures.
• It's a GW sponsored tournament. A preponderance of your army should be GW models, or converted using GW bitz.
• Base size: Models should be on the proper size base, compared to newer models of the same type. All terminators should be on 40mm, all blood Crushers should be on 60mm round, etc.

• 40k GT, 2250 points
There will be up to fifty tables (100 players) open and the top two finishers will earn their spots at Vegas in 2011.

Shouldn't that be a fantasy tournament?

Eric

Good catch! Thank you!

G

Good luck with your event!

Thanks Key! You should try to make it out for sure.

: )

G

Thanks for the reminder, if all goes well I should be able to head down.

Also, the main post still has 2 40k events on the 5th and 6th, 40k 2k and a 40k 2250.

Fixed it.

: )

Is 50 bucks a typical entry price for a GT? I sounds really high.

50 is about normal for an event like this.

they DO have to rent a large location for 3 whole days afterall.

50 is about normal for an event like this.

they DO have to rent a large location for 3 whole days afterall.

50 is about normal for an event like this.

they DO have to rent a large location for 3 whole days afterall.

If you look at the cost compared to other similar venues this is a bargain in my opinion. There will be a lot of prize support as well.

G

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Is 50 bucks a typical entry price for a GT? I sounds really high.

Just to reinforce what others have said, this is a good price to pay for a tournament that has solid prize support, is well-run, and has tables with terrain on them. Sounds like a great event.

The cost is very reasonable IMO.

GBF, is it to early to start asking about specific rulings like how the deffrolla is going to be ruled? etc.

GG

I am currently creating forums for Bolter Beach where you can ask questions in regards to the rules for each gaming system/event. Please wait for the forums to ask question about gaming rules as this thread is dedicated to letting people know about Bolter Beach and how to register.

We will be glad to answer all your questions about the rules once the forums are up and running (very soon!).

: )

G

Based on your last reply, GBF, is it safe to assume that BB will not merely be using the INAT.FAQ?

Also, in the original post, you mentioned a FoW tournament. I'm not a FoW player, but I'm curious to know if the FoW tournament will still occur.

We will use the INAT FAQ as a reference but it will not be considered official. All GW FAQs that are current will be considered official. We will develop our own FAQ as well based upon the questions we receive.

We are still planning to hold a FoW event but are not accepting registration for Flames of War yet. I'll let you know when we will.

G

I wish you very well in this endeavor GBF. I don't know if I'll be able to make it down from Atlanta this summer or not; if I can get some other folks to come, it'll be more likely. Either way, another good, solid Indy GT in the Southeast will be great for the hobby, and I'm all for tournaments being successful as that means that everyone has a good time.

Living in SC, I'll keep an eye on this.

It's not that long a drive, especially if you happen to live in the southern end of South Carolina.

G

I don't, I live in Columbia. It's just under 9 hours according to Mapquest. Proabably around 8 hours in real travel time.

That's not bad.

G

Sarge: That's about the same distance as it is from Atlanta, which is where I live. I'm trying to get a group together for the Team Tournament. I'm still playing Dark Eldar, and if I wanna go to a big tournament, I need to get probably four or five more Raiders for a competitive build.

Can't wait, check is in the mail.

Checks! How about some paypal action =p.

When can we expect to see what army lists are allowed?

As far as 40k armies go if there is a codex then the most recent version is legal. No Chapter Approved or Apoc units.

G

I wish this was in July... and not June... June is the busiest time for me :(

I would have really liked to have come down there Steve

We would love to see you there and Sarasota is such a beautiful place as well. Maybe you can figure out a way to squeeze it in to your busy schedule.

G

Is there a team tournament component to this?

I'm going to try to get something to eat at Yoder's and Munchies. I saw them on Man VS Food and the food looks amazing.

Sarge wrote:Is there a team tournament component to this?

Green Blow Fly wrote:June 4
• Club Royale 40k Team Tournament
Teams will consist of three members each. Each member brings their own 1500 point army. You will play four one-on-one games versus other teams over the course of the day. The team that accumulates the most battle points at the end of the day will we be rewarded with lots of loot!

So, obviously missed that. Thanks!

Try to bring a team with you! It's going to be a full day for sure.

: )

G

How many tables will there be for the team tournament?

As many as are needed.

G

WC_Brian wrote:
I'm going to try to get something to eat at Yoder's and Munchies. I saw them on Man VS Food and the food looks amazing.

Speaking of eatin'

It would be nice if the tounrey organizers make a list(preferably with a map) of local, recomended, eatin' estabishments for everyone!!

GG

It would be good if Paypal was accepted, that would definitely boost attendance.

Will the team tournament be straight battle points or will there be soft scores as well?

Team tourney is pure battle.

There are lots of nice places to eat close by. Here is a link you can use to find nice places to eat in Sarasota:

http://www.hellosarasota.com/Restaurants.cfm?gclid=CK2Sp-a5x58CFQ7yDAodiwEw3A

G

its too bad I can't go... GG and I could be a team!

He could have Blood angels and I could bring my deamons

I have to see when I can get down there to decide on the Team event, I know I will attend the 40k GT, as my GF has decided we need a vacation that weekend.

Nice!

: )

Max Total Points (over 5 games) = 1000
*600 total battlepoints
*400 total soft points

Max Total Battlepoints/Mission = 120
*Objectives: 100 Points
*Bonus: 20 Points

Objectives
*Primary: 50
*Secondary: 30
*Tertiary: 20

Bonus Points
*4 bonus/mission
*5 points/bonus

Max Total Soft Points/Mission = 80
*Soft Point Split
- Comp = 40
- Sport = 40

Comp Breakdown
*Did your opponent have two or more identical units that are Heavy Support, Elite, HQ, or Fast Attack?
- Yes = 0 pts
- No = 5 pts

*Did your opponent have three or more troops?
- Yes = 5 pts
- No = 0 pts

*How would you judge his/her theme?
- 0 (Win At All Costs)
- 5 (Lots of nasty combos)
- 10 (fair army)
- 15 (This army represents its background very well)

Sports Breakdown
*Did your opponent argue about rules, roll dice too fast, have disputes about terrain, slow play, not move or measure properly?
- Yes = 0 pts
- No = 5 pts

How would you rate your opponent?
- 0 (Would not play them again)
- 5 (Lots of rules arguments)
- 10 (Fair)
- 15 (This was my favorite game ever)

Appearance
* You will be judged by the TOs and score up to 250 points based upon the appearance of your army. A complete set of rules for the painting scores will appear later.
* There is a Player's Choice Award. You will vote for your favorite army during the GT.

G

I was thinking about traveling out there when I visit family, but unfortunately I fear my vehicle will not have a proper surface to deep stri---arrive in. Yeah, we'll go with that.

It's an interesting score chart, but it seems to hurt some fluff themed armies that 'represent their background'...and Necrons, but that's alright since they don't really have a lot of different units in their FOC slots anyways...and no one loves them but me.

Oh yeah,I give them the love. You'd better believe it.

GBF,
I don't like the verbiage for the "sports breakdown".

I think you need to define "argue about rules" and "have disputes about terrain". I mean this could be interepreted as having to give someone a 0 just because there was a minor rules dispute. I.E. it makes it look like there isn't supposed to be any debate relating to rules or terrain... period.

I would suggest something like "Did your opponent argue to the extreme about rules" or "Was your opponent a jerk concerning rules" "Did your opponent work out rules disputes amicably?" etc.etc.

GG

To me it should be obvious.

: )

G

Frankly, I'd get rid of that argument related question all together.

Subjective Comp? Really? From GBF?

I am just looking over the points for army lists and noticing how many points I will be losing.

As for the did your opponent stuff, terrain always need to be talked about. Just what is slow play? Rules questions will always occur.

These are all common problems that occur during tournaments... Slow play, disputes regarding rules & terrain, etc. Obviously there is a difference between a discussion and an argument. How would you define them Fabius?

G

To me slow play is a case by case thing. If my opponent or myself has a lot to consider before an action, taking a few extra minutes is fine with me.

How should I define it with the written word so people can recognize it and report it?

G

That's just it, you can't. It should be call a judge over and have them observe, then if they feel the person in question is slowing the game on purpose of hitting the time limit, they can act on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, when you say Identical units, is that type or wargear/upgrade wise?


Say if I take 2 5 man assault termie squads would I get penalized? Or is it if I take 2 5 man TH/SS units?

We will be running a weekly e-letter. We will let everyone who is playing know what we expect and that we the TOs will be very vigilant. If you are unhappy you should talk to us about it. If you have a legitimate complaint we will resolve it for you. Yuri and I have lots of experience running events and we both see eye to eye on matters such as these.

G

Its just now I am out a possible 60 points a game just because of the list I chose to bring.

You like the spam?

No, I like effective low cost units.

: )

We had one player who was notoriously slow at our local tournaments. A lot of it came because he played a horde ork army and he had a lot of models to move. This is poor sportsmanship though, because if you are playing a timed game with an army you cannot manage to complete the turn sequence in a reasonble amount of time, you will be penalized.

Also, and I'm not sure 100% on this, but I think he also did it to stall out the game as well...it's hard to kill 100+ models when you have 2 less turns to do it.

RxGhost wrote:We had one player who was notoriously slow at our local tournaments. A lot of it came because he played a horde ork army and he had a lot of models to move. This is poor sportsmanship though, because if you are playing a timed game with an army you cannot manage to complete the turn sequence in a reasonble amount of time, you will be penalized.

Also, and I'm not sure 100% on this, but I think he also did it to stall out the game as well...it's hard to kill 100+ models when you have 2 less turns to do it.

Staling is common, however usually the stalling is from the shooty players, not the CC oriented players, like horde ork tends to be. They stall to try and cut down on the amount of turns they will need to be in CC.

GG

I'd love information on what constitutes "identical" before I commit to driving 8+ hours and potentially taking time off work for this.

I feel its not fair for certain armies. Make an Eldar, DE, Chaos or Demon list that doesnt spam and is competative.

Two identical units (not troop) would be:

3x Oblit
3x Oblit


G

Comp Breakdown
*Did your opponent have two or more identical units that are Heavy Support, Elite, HQ, or Fast Attack?
- Yes = 0 pts
- No = 5 pts

Just lost 3 out of state entrants.

GBF,
What if someone concludes that my 9 kans, 2 dread army is a "win at all costs" list despite that it is a fluff army described in the ork codex ("dreadmobs" p. 52)? Abaddon has great background too, but does that means he's not win at all costs? A seer council is also quite fluffy but complete win at all costs. Comp is crap.

olympia wrote:GBF,
What if someone concludes that my 9 kans, 2 dread army is a "win at all costs" list despite that it is a fluff army described in the ork codex ("dreadmobs" p. 52)? Abaddon has great background too, but does that means he's not win at all costs? A seer council is also quite fluffy but complete win at all costs. Comp is crap.

wow... youd really get creamed. 0 for duplications and 0 for out of theme. granted it is very much in theme but in a tournament is someone really going to give you that?

You can't take different wargear/upgrades for the kans?

G


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MagickalMemories wrote:

Comp Breakdown
*Did your opponent have two or more identical units that are Heavy Support, Elite, HQ, or Fast Attack?
- Yes = 0 pts
- No = 5 pts

Just lost 3 out of state entrants.

So Dakka-equese!

Is it really that hard to make sure that multiple units from the non-Troop FOC slots are not identical?

I mean, REALLY?

It took me about 2 minutes in my head to adjust both my DE tournament army and my Chaos tournament list so that there are no identical non-Troop units, and I doubt it has seriously affected either army's effectiveness.

Green Blow Fly wrote:You can't take different wargear/upgrades for the kans?

G.

But I could still get 0 for 'theme' if my dip@#%$ opponent thinks a kan wall is a win at all costs army. And what about the seer council--fluff or win at all costs? Or both?

If a player scores someone incorrectly then we will correct it. It's just that simple. Olympia are you thinking of coming over to play across the proverbial pond?

G

I think that the "identical non-troop unit" portion is baloney. It is unfairly biased towards armies that have good, efficient troop choices. In the end all it's going to do is make people spend a few extra points on their spam units to diversify them. This also is unfairly biased towards armies that have multiple cheap upgrade options.

Green Blow Fly wrote:If a player scores someone incorrectly then we will correct it. It's just that simple. Olympia are you thinking of coming over to play across the proverbial pond?

G

Maybe Comp should be judged by the judges, and not the players?

Okay you are entitled to your opinion Mosg.

G


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:If a player scores someone incorrectly then we will correct it. It's just that simple. Olympia are you thinking of coming over to play across the proverbial pond?

G

Maybe Comp should be judged by the judges, and not the players?

I always review the scores and look for a bias. For example last at my NC GT I reviewed all the comp scores and they seemed fair to me. So in effect there is a review by the judges. We can also implement the Olympic filter if necessary.

G

So you don't think that that's going to happen, or you don't care? Do you not think it is biased towards troop-efficient armies, or do you not care if it does?

I'm not trying to be confrontational--I'm curious. I'd love to attend but it seems that the decision about this is somewhat arbitrary.

Green Blow Fly wrote:So Dakka-equese!

Not "Dakka-esque" at all.
Just someone who was planning on attending telling you why you lost his attendance.

Good to see how the organizer reacts to criticism and complaints. Would saying "So Wrecking Crew-esque" be an inappropriate response?

Good luck with the tournament. I have a feeling you're going to need it.

Eric

We have people from as far away as New York and California signed up and registered.

G


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mosg wrote:
So you don't think that that's going to happen, or you don't care? Do you not think it is biased towards troop-efficient armies, or do you not care if it does?

I'm not trying to be confrontational--I'm curious. I'd love to attend but it seems that the decision about this is somewhat arbitrary.

No matter how you come up with the rules some armies will score better than others. For the rare case such as Necrons we the TOs can make an adjustment to help them out. Someone told me that the TOs should simply handle all soft scores but then you run into the situ where other people will accuse you of showing favoritism for your friends. Both Yuri and I think that the soft scores are very important, we are not going to drop them or greatly alter what you have seen here. I have had a lot of people tell me overall they like the scoring system and I expected it to not be as popular here as some other sites.

G

From what I'm reading here, If I decided to take all Crisis suits in my Elites, I'm dinged on comp. What exactly are Tau supposed to take in their elite slots? A unit of stealth and a unit of crisis and suck up the losses?

MagickalMemories wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:So Dakka-equese!

Not "Dakka-esque" at all.
Just someone who was planning on attending telling you why you lost his attendance.

Good to see how the organizer reacts to criticism and complaints. Would saying "So Wrecking Crew-esque" be an inappropriate response?

Good luck with the tournament. I have a feeling you're going to need it.

Eric

Um, but the problem is that you voiced neither a criticism nor a complaint.

You merely quoted a section that you apparently didn't like and stated that you wouldn't be coming to the tournament. A true complaint would specify what you didn't like and why you didn't like it. A criticism would give suggestions as to what could be improved. Your post did neither.

That is why the post was dakka-esque.

I reiterate a previous post, is it REALLY that difficult to modify a list so that you don't have identical units?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaplaingrabthar wrote:From what I'm reading here, If I decided to take all Crisis suits in my Elites, I'm dinged on comp. What exactly are Tau supposed to take in their elite slots? A unit of stealth and a unit of crisis and suck up the losses?

Only if you take three IDENTICAL units of crisis suits as your elites choices.

Once again...is it REALLY that hard to throw on a couple of different wargear or weapon options to prevent the units from being identical?

Saldiven wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:So Dakka-equese!

Not "Dakka-esque" at all.
Just someone who was planning on attending telling you why you lost his attendance.

Good to see how the organizer reacts to criticism and complaints. Would saying "So Wrecking Crew-esque" be an inappropriate response?

Good luck with the tournament. I have a feeling you're going to need it.

Eric

Um, but the problem is that you voiced neither a criticism nor a complaint.

You merely quoted a section that you apparently didn't like and stated that you wouldn't be coming to the tournament. A true complaint would specify what you didn't like and why you didn't like it. A criticism would give suggestions as to what could be improved. Your post did neither.

That is why the post was dakka-esque.

I reiterate a previous post, is it REALLY that difficult to modify a list so that you don't have identical units?

You're going to have to check up on your definitions.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/complaint

Pointing out that you will not be attending and showing your reason why VERY MUCH counts as an expression of dissatisfaction (Second entry, first definition).

Is it difficult to modify units so that they're not identical?
If you play a well balanced CSM army it is. Heaven forbid you want two units of Oblits. Neither 1 nor 3 Oblits are well balanced. Two is the optimum number (IMO). So, you've gotta hamstring a unit or blow 75 points to qualify.
Tweaking a piece of wargear so that you can squeak by a limitation such as this is a simple (and some would say WAAC) way around this rule.
"No. They're not the same units. This one model in the second unit of Nob Bikers has an ammo runt. It's an entirely different unit."
Gaming the system (shenanigism) is rewarded, but playing a straightforward list is penalized.

Just because it isn't difficult doesn't mean it should have to be done.

Eric

I always found your communication unclear and it sounded like you were whining TBH.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I always found your communication unclear and it sounded like you were whining TBH.

G

My communication was pretty direct, actually. I quoted your words and said that was the reason you lost attendees. Nothing unclear there. hard to misunderstand.
Regarding whining... I think it's funny that you have the ability to hear the typed word when nobody else does.

There's a school of though that says we always presume others to behave as we would. So, if you read a generic post by me and thought there was whining involved, it's because that is how you would react.
...That, or you were just trying to act in a degrading manner.


It's okay.
I understand.
You have a history of being that way with those who have something to say unfavorable about you or things you are defensive/protective about.

It's your tourney. You're running it the way you want.
I don't have to like it and, if I don't, nobody's forcing me to attend.
It's fine.
My point was only to show you that not everyone would be happy about that particular decision.
I don't see any reason to continue this conversation.

Eric

Well if you do decide to come you might be surprised. We might have a band one night and if you can put a team together that event has absolutely no comp or sportsmanship. : )

G

While the South definitely needs well run tourneys, comp seems to rear its ugly head more than it helps (in regards to 40K). In every fashion, it seems to really alter the real outcome of a tourney.

Also, adding in, 'judges can alter scores' with an already subjective scoring system just can not end well. If scores aren't transparent, it casts doubt on tourney results. Additionally, judges can alter a score on an already subjective criteria while having the benefit of viewing every other players' scores.....bad for business.

I guess, in the end, I have personal issues where someone gets to dictate what a person buys, builds, paints and chooses to game with. If it is legal in the codex, who am I to tell someone how they should build their army?

Good luck with the tourney. I hope it turns out well and helps to foster/grow organized play in the South.

The rules for comp are quite clear Charlie. If someone doesn't score them correctly it's easy to see by reviewing the army lists.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:

No matter how you come up with the rules some armies will score better than others.

So, why introduce a system that is inherently unfair to some armies?

Necrons have been listed as an army that suffers. For example what if a player wants to field three units of 10 Immortals? Said player could instead field one unit of eight, one unit of nine and another unit of ten... They would then be fine and have some points left over.

I think TOs have a responsibility to check all scoring to make sure everything is correct, obviously the scores shouldn't be altered to help a friend or make them be what you (e.g., some bias). It's a lot of work but it will help to ensure fairness. For example suppose you see that someone did not add up all their battlepoints correctly. I would find the two players from that round and go over the battlepoints with them to make sure they are correctly entered and recorded. Changing a comp score to a higher value because you feel that Grey Knights need a break (as an example) would be wrong and I dont want my previous statement to be interpreted as such. Cooking the scores is flatout wrong.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I always found your communication unclear and it sounded like you were whining TBH.

G

I agree wholeheartedly with this impression, as it is exactly the impression I got.

The posting that precipitated this series of subsequent posts contributed nothing to the thread, which is why it got my goat.

People are so absolutely hide-bound. Going to a tournament that forces you to modify the list that you ALWAYS play with competitively forces you to stretch your abilities as a list writer and a player.

If you're uncomfortable with that sort of a test of your abilities, then, by all means, stay away....

Or maybe someone doesn't like being told that they "have" play a different way other than what the designers made. That is most peoples problem with comp in tournaments. Our comp is our codex. If it's legal to play it's compy. The idea of random restrictions is silly as all it does is shift the power to other armies. For instance Space Wolves will have a grand ol' time at this tourney since they have one of the best, most efficient troop choices in the game. Same with Mech Guard.

Also in a system where counts as is touted as the rule of thumb people will get dinged because they are playing "eldar w/eldrad" but didn't paint their army uthwe colors.

I didn't get whining from Magikal Memories. I saw that he informed you that based on your comp rules he would not be attending. It is better to let you know if someone doesn't come because of your rules so that when all is finished and you look back and see how you could have increased participants you have solid information as to what kept people from attending your event.

Just my 2 cents

There are no restrictions or penalties for 'counts as' at BB.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:The rules for comp are quite clear Charlie. If someone doesn't score them correctly it's easy to see by reviewing the army lists.

G

A person can lose 40-60 points on soft scores alone b/c of subjective scoring of somebody's army. I'm not talking about the easy things to observe such as 'is there 3 or more troop choices in the army?'. I'm more referring to perfectly fluffy armies that are also competitive armies as they are not mutually exclusive. Folks can build an army that fits the fluff very well, yet still get penalized by their opponents. Some examples just off of the top of my head:

-Ulthwe Craftworld Eldar which inherently may field Eldrad and Seer Councils (I have to include it as 2 Eldar armies have actually placed in the last two Indy GT's which used army comp)
-Horde Orks with lots of Killa Kanz (many will whine that Orks aren't competitive, but they seemed to do well at comp Indy GT's last year as well as Ard Boyz)
-Mechanized IG (many variations of fluffy, yet beatstick armies)
-Most Space Marine armies (Vulcan lists, a few Blood Angel builds and various Space Wolves included)

What's considered a nasty combo? For my Orks, running up a Land Raider Crusader with Assault Terminators and Chaplain is a very nasty combo to face; other armies may not find it all that difficult (such as Space Marines w/ Null Zone or some Tyranid combos)

As an old time player, I still can't wrap my mind around Chaos armies that have mixed marks (Khorne and Slaanesh/ Tzeentch and Nurgle), so should I dock the army b/c of how I view a themed army?

If a guy gets tanked on his theme by multiple players, do judges have the right to adjust the score b/c they think the comp is clear? I believe it's one subjective opinion trumping another subjective opinion.

Then, there are some folks who will math hammer everything out, build the nastiest beatstick they can and hope to go up against non optimized lists b/c of the comp restrictions that were put in place. They can make up the loss of 60 points in other areas. I'm sure you've seen this approach at some point at a tourney.

I applaud your efforts and hard work to bring a quality tourney to the South. I just think some gamers will game the comp and, at the end of the day, only those who played the 'spirit' of the comp are the ones who ultimately lose out.

Charlie

I understand the whole 'if its legal then it is should be allowed' argument but probably what you have failed to see since you have not actually run an event (feel free to correct me if I am wrong) is that the soft scores are there for a system of check and balance. To me a GT level event should be about a lot more than simply running an Ard Boyz event, which is what you would have if you drop comp, sportsmanship and appearance. The game is still a hobby to many of us and there is more to it than simply bringing your most tooled beat stick army. Our scoring for comp is well defined by a set of simple questions so there is less opportunity for rampant chipmunking as I have seen quite often. Charlie you have sighted many examples of comp chipmunking that are not possible within the BB scoring system such as mixed marks in a CSM army. I'm not saying you are intentionally spouting misinformation, just putting it out there so others skimming this thread will be aware. I know this will fall on many a deaf ear but that is what it is and why it is there for BB.

I have used comp at my last GTs in NC and I received not one complaint from anyone that attended either event. I reviewed all the comp scores versus the actual army lists and they all looked quite reasonable to me.

And by the way we are modifying overall scoring as follows:

Total max points = 1000
Battlepoints - 55% (550)
Comp - 15% (150)
Sportsmanship - 15% (150)
Appearance - 15% (150)

The problem is, winning your GT is a qualifier to get to Vegas. Based on your previous scores, if I brought my list I would be out 300 points over the event, so it would be a slim chance to win over all. Paying 5-10 points a model to make them different just seems cheap and skirting the rules.

Fabius can you post your list here or send me a PM so I can review it to see how it would actually stack up... if you dont mind that is.

You do realize that in fact many of these Indy events have comp?

G

I'm still confused about the purpose of the comp score-- what kinds of lists is it designed to punish?

Someone above mentioned the Kan Wall list for orks- if someone tanked the score on that list, would you correct it?

If I ran my Black Templar with 4 Land Raider Crusaders, and my 'theme' score got tanked, would that be corrected?


I'm 100% behind paint and sportsmanship scoring so long as an objective rubric is used. Comp on the other hand-- you said so yourself:

No matter how you come up with the rules some armies will score better than others.

So, why introduce an inherently unbalanced comp score? Sportsmanship and Painting I have some control over-- I have no control over what my opponent thinks is 'in theme' for my force. Further, I've never played Tau-- if I play a Tau player, how am I in any position to judge his force's theme?


I'm not asking idly about the tourney-- Sarge, who posted above, and some other people from our local gaming group were looking at traveling down for the weekend. Comp scoring just makes it a hard sell for many of us (myself included).

Saldiven wrote:Going to a tournament that forces you to modify the list that you ALWAYS play with competitively forces you to stretch your abilities as a list writer and a player.

If you're uncomfortable with that sort of a test of your abilities, then, by all means, stay away....

So wait, its a test of my list writing abilities to take my usual three units of 10 Immortals, make one unit 9 models, and the other 8? Really?

And of course if we don't like it, we can stay away, that's just obvious. And if I were a fence-sitter, these types of responses would cause me not to attend, regardless.

To be fair, I don't think Saldiven is associated with the event.

Or, if he is, he should -not- be in charge of PR

I will post the redistributed point distribution tomorrow. No changes for comp.

Carry on.

G

kartofelkopf wrote:I'm still confused about the purpose of the comp score-- what kinds of lists is it designed to punish?

Someone above mentioned the Kan Wall list for orks- if someone tanked the score on that list, would you correct it?

If I ran my Black Templar with 4 Land Raider Crusaders, and my 'theme' score got tanked, would that be corrected?


I'm 100% behind paint and sportsmanship scoring so long as an objective rubric is used. Comp on the other hand-- you said so yourself:

No matter how you come up with the rules some armies will score better than others.

So, why introduce an inherently unbalanced comp score? Sportsmanship and Painting I have some control over-- I have no control over what my opponent thinks is 'in theme' for my force. Further, I've never played Tau-- if I play a Tau player, how am I in any position to judge his force's theme?


I'm not asking idly about the tourney-- Sarge, who posted above, and some other people from our local gaming group were looking at traveling down for the weekend. Comp scoring just makes it a hard sell for many of us (myself included).

Well,I'm not heading to this tourney,because it's too far a drive from where I live,but here's my 2 cents.

Penalizing armies for identical non-troop units just seems a little silly. I don't know what this really accomplishes,honestly. Like people have already said,it's easy for a lot of units to use wargear/vehicle options to skirt around this rule. However,there's also a lot of staple units in armies that can't,and this severely handicaps those units. If somebody is going to spam 3 LRC's,then they're most likely going to take a comp hit,anyways. Then,their option is to either add a multi-melta or HK missle that they don't really want to two of them,handicapping their army on the table,or take an even further comp hit for indentical units. It just seems redundant,and unfair to some armies. Some Necron players like to spam 15 Destroyers,but really can't because of this rule,because there's no options that allow them to skirt the rule. Plus,it just seems silly that somebody that took 2 broods of Biovores would get penalized for something like this.

I don't have an issue with comp,per say,but comp should done by the organizers and judges,not the players. What somebody who's in their first 40k tourney would consider a beat stick army is going to vary greatly from what somebody who's been a tourney player for 10 years thinks is a beat stick army. A lot of players aren't going have enough knowledge to judge the theme of another player's army. An Eldar army that another Eldar player considers extremely fluffy and thematic may be considered a WAAC list by a 'nid player. Your comp scores are literally at the mercy of the knowledge of the players you play against. The comp score should be determined by the organizers/judges,so at least that way,everybody is on an even playing field in that regard.

I have created a thread in the Discussions forum solely for the intent of discussing how large tournaments are scored. I would greatly appreciate if people would use that thread to discuss the merits and drawbacks for scoring. The purpose of this thread is to simply make people aware of Bolter Beach so they have the opportunity to participate. I fully understand and appreciate how people feel about the subject of scoring. There is no system in place I am aware of that satifies everyone. Comp is subjective and will always be a prickly thorn. If you have a concern you'd like to voice I highly encourage you to discuss these issues over on the new thread I have created over in the Discussions forum.

G

The 5 pts for non-identical units is the epitomy of building a list to win. For 1 pt. I can differentiate my meched up squads with a spotlight and score 5 points per game because of this. This is a bad idea. At first I was thinking this is just if you take duplicates of any unit. Having it only count if they are exact duplicates is just pointless. It forces people to make tiny variations that are superficial just so they can say "Hey, I am not a spammer".

Comp? Come on, who does comp anymore? Comp is something that was created because 2nd edition was so unbalanced and it died out in 4th edition because by then people realized it was unnecessary. Please just integrate those points into the other 3 scores. I think 60% battle, 20% paint, 20% sports is a great and happy medium. Why do we have to go back in time to the dark ages of 40k?

Sorry didn't see your post above while I was typing, the Hod was distracting me while I was trying to throw in my 2 cents.

Yeah there is a thread I created over in Discussions about scoring. It will really help me if you post there your feelings and experience with scoring systems. I will just say here it's obvious lots of people don't like comp. I will take all the feedback (again please post over in the thread on the Discussions forum) and see what I can come up based upon all the constructive feedback. I really appreciate people taking the time to address this issue (over there) and I value your opinions... Believe it or not.

Thanks again!
G

GBF-

Not sure if you'd seen it, but for some more input (of a less civil variety) on the comp issue:

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/02/bolter-beach.html
---

While I disagree with the tone a lot of comments have there (that site seems to encourage the jerkiest of posters), the points are well made.

Ive posted my address on YTTH to the issues stated there.

G

D'oh, I'm a slow reader-- just finished the thread and saw your responses.

Max Total Points (over 5 games) = 1000

*550 total battlepoints
*450 total soft points (150/appearance, 150/sportsmanship, 150/comp)

Battlepoints = 55%
Appearance = 15%
Sportsmanship = 15%
Comp = 15%

Max Total Battlepoints/Mission = 120 (11% total)
*Objectives: 100 Points (9.1667%/game, 45.833% total)
*Bonus: 20 Points (1.833%/game, 9.167% total)

Objectives
*Primary: 50 (4.5834%/game, 22.917% total)
*Secondary: 30 (2.75%/game, 13.75% total)
*Tertiary: 20 (1.833%/game, 9.167% total))

Bonus Points
*4 bonuses/mission
*5 points/bonus (0.366%/game, 1.833% total)

Max Total Soft Points/Mission = 60 (6% total)
*Soft Point Split
- Comp = 30 points/mission
- Sport = 30 points/mission

Comp Breakdown
*Did your opponent have two or more identical units that are Heavy Support, Elite, HQ, or Fast Attack?
- Yes = 0 pts
- No = 5 pts (6 points total, 3% total)

*Did your opponent have three or more troops?
- Yes = 5 pts (6 points total, 3% total)
- No = 0 pts

*How would you judge his/her theme?
- 0 (Win At All Costs)
- 5 (Lots of nasty combos)
- 10 (fair army)
- 15 (This army represents its background very well) (18 points total, 9% total)

Sports Breakdown
*Did your opponent argue about rules, roll dice too fast, have disputes about terrain, slow play, not move or measure properly?
- Yes = 0 pts
- No = 5 pts

How would you rate your opponent?
- 0 (Would not play them again)
- 5 (Lots of rules arguments) (50 points total)
- 10 (Fair) (100 points total)
- 15 (This was my favorite game ever) (150 points total)

Appearance
* You will be judged by the TOs and score up to 150 points based upon the appearance of your army. A complete set of rules for the painting scores will appear later.
* There is a Player's Choice Award. You will vote for your favorite army during the GT. These votes do not count towards your overall score.

This is a Bolter Beach Post, not directly about comp.

I think It should be noted that at Bolter Beach the TO's are posting what to expect at this event where in the past there has been a shroud of mystery around how these scors are found.

Did annyone ever ask the Necro guys how they do their comp??? And what did you get for an answer???

I know what I got...not much.

How about the big cheese, did GW say what should be considered for a event that is directly linked to their 2011 event?

My guess is they dont put any input into these things, which to me is sad because the TO takes the heat. If GW set the rule there would be no question as to right or wrong, fair not fair.

I say good show to all the chaps at Bolter beach!!!
Its not easy to open up before the event and take a flamer to the face.

I am going to play and exercise the first rule "Have Fun"
Thanks go out to GBF and everyone involved with B.B.
for putting yourselves in the cross hairs.

Thanks Swags! Your kind words are appreciated.

G

Greenie,
sigh why must your tourney interfere with my social calendar? le sigh.

Come on bro don't say no. You teen face killer.



G

I have to agree with Swags.

If a tournament is going to have a composition element, they need to make sure that everyone knows how it will be judged months in advance.

Yes, I know that some people out there hate any form of composition scores and will avoid any tournament that has them.

For myself, I think of composition scores as being another challenge that I have to deal with if I want to win the tournament. It's no different from having a variety of missions that may or may not work well with the list I chose to bring. The best armies are the ones that can handle a variety of missions.

I consider it a challenge in my list writing and game playing abilities to have to make a list that can both score well in the composition bracket and score well with battle points. Having the composition scoring guidelines this far in advance gives me the opportunity to make modifications with my list and get plenty of play time in with it before the tournament so I know what works and what doesn't.

GBF, I know you and I have knocked heads a couple of times on the forums in the past, but I really wish you the best on this new event. I'm still trying to get a group together to come down from here in North Atlanta.

Saldiven it's nice that we can disagree at times but not hold a grudge and carry it around. I really respect that about you and your support is greatly appreciated. It would be nice to see ya in June. Time flies!

G

A good point was made.
GBF, you guys DO deserve credit for full disclosure.

LOL I'm still not coming... but you get credit for making sure everyting's known, at least. : )

Thanks! That certainly means a lot coming from you.

: )

G

Well, agree or disagree, credit *is* deserved where it is due.

Here is a news flash.

Yuri and I have decided to give one golden ticket to Vegas for the person who wins best overall and the other golden ticket to the player who wins best general. Here are the awards for the 40k GT and how they are scored:

Best Overall - Battle + Comp + Appearance + Sports
Best General - Battle
Best Appearance - Judged by panel
Player's Choice - voted on by players
Sportsmanship - Sports

G

Excellent decision GBF. This will increase the popularity of your tournament and also reduce the number of people whining about soft scores since they'll have a shot at a ticket anyway. Kudos to you!

**Edited because I read the rules post **

I think it's a good idea, too. I think it's a good compromise that will still make the event attractive to those players who are not big fans of the soft scores. It also gives a reason for the non-hardcore competitive gamers to show up, as they still have four titles to compete for.

I have played in this type of setting before. It's interesting as it helps to separate the goals of both camps and everyone can enjoy themselves. It was Yuri's idea and I like it.

G

Website goes public this evening:

http://www.bolterbeach.com

G

Saldiven wrote:Hrm...that's not TOO terribly far from Atlanta. Any chance of a group from up here going? Might be fun to make the trip....

I am in Tallahassee and would be willing to carpool/share a room. That does require me to get my brand new waagh painted and filled to 2k points tourney ready but I'm interested.

Stumbled across this thread and I REALLY like that scoring system, especially the comp section.

Nice work and I hope your event goes well.

- Blackbone

Thanks Blackbone. That is very kind of you. You are a prince amongst men!

G

GBF:

I'm still trying to get a group from up here in North Atlanta to come down.

How many slots are there for the Team Tourney and the GT, respectively? How many are still available?

Another question on the comp system:

On the website, it says:
"Did your opponent have two or more identical units, or to many points that are in Heavy Support?"

What do you mean by "too many points"? (Not that I'm going to change my army at this point; I'm just curious).

@ Saldiven
There are plenty of slots left for the 40k TT (up to 30 teams) & 40k GT (up to 100 players). We will soon start a list for each of participants you can view on the website.

@ Lorek
Ignore the part about too many points that are in HS. I will remove that from the rules. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

G

Awesome. Thank you.

I have opened a thread over on the 40k Wrecking Crew forums to start our 40k FAQ. This FAQ will be used for both the team tournament & GT. Please field all your queries there. The rules for posting a question must be strictly adhered to so please read the OP first before asking any questions. You must be pre registered for either the team tournament or GT to ask a question. Here is the link to the 40k Wrecking Crew forums:

40kwreckingcrew.aceboard.com

The Bolter Beach forum is at the bottom and you'll find the FAQ thread there.

G

Yuri the Devil & I have decided to modify the format for the 40k team tourney to be held on Friday, June 4th. The team tourney will now feature two man teams using the FOC rules from Adepticon 2010. You and your partner will play together as a team in four rounds with battlepoints only and it's 1000 points per player. The entry fee is now $50 per team. These changes means we can allow more teams to enter. Each game will be 2 hours with 1/2 hour inbetween and four games. The slots are starting to fill up so don't wait to register if you want to play.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:Max Total Points (over 5 games) = 1000

*How would you judge his/her theme?
- 0 (Win At All Costs)
- 5 (Lots of nasty combos)
- 10 (fair army)
- 15 (This army represents its background very well) (18 points total, 9% total)


How would you rate your opponent?
- 0 (Would not play them again)
- 5 (Lots of rules arguments) (50 points total)
- 10 (Fair) (100 points total)
- 15 (This was my favorite game ever) (150 points total)

Your scoring system seems pretty good, except for these two catagories. Theme judging may be difficult for some people. They might not understnad why my Tzeenchy/Slanneshy army is actually fluffy and represents good background, going by the Fluff I grew up with 20 years ago. I know thats an extreme example but you get my thinking dont you?

My problem with your "Rate Opponent" is that you go from "Fair" to "OMG FAV GAME EVER!"(sorry for the leet speek it is just for emphasis). I know this is just wording but I take wording seriously. Mabye 10=Good/fun game and 15=Great game.

How will the rules work for the Team Tournament, in respect to sharing friendly armies abilities? Could an Ork unit use a Lord Commissar's LD bubble? Can a Leman Russ use the KFF?

We are using the Adepticon TT rules so the answer to both your questions is no.

G

Good. Thank you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, I can't seem to find the Adepticon TT rules anywhere on their site - all I've got is their scenario packet.

It's on their site. I am travel right now and can only post via my iPhone which is limited. I believe Yuri has put up all the rules on our website so you can look there.

G

They're definitely not on the bolterbeach.com website.

http://www.adepticon.org/10rules/201040Kteam.pdf

there ya go!

: )

G

Okay everyone! We have so far around 40 players registered for the 40k GT & a lot of people are signing up for the team event on Friday. We will soon be releasing our FAQ as well as some missions so you can start playtesting.

G

This is the first sample mission of three. Feel free to provide your feedback if you can think of a way to improve them. All missions will feature three main objectives plus some bonus points.

Blood in the Sand
Your forces have arrived and your enemy is well prepared. You must take ground while minimizing losses.

Mission Rules: All normal mission rules are in effect. The first turn includes Night Fight and on a roll of 6 on 1d6 at the start of the second turn then there is one more turn of Night Fight.

Deployment: Modified Dawn of War; you can deploy up to one HQ, two troops and one other unit selected from either elites, heavy support or fast attack. These units can be deployed with their dedicated transport and each counts as one unit. The remainder of your army starts in reserve and you can elect to bring in as many units from your long table edge as you wish during the first turn while holding the rest of your army in normal reserve. Units must be placed so that they start on the table more than 18" from any enemy unit. Infiltrators are deployed using the mission rules from the rulebook.

* Outflanker - You may select one unit from your army that gains the ability to outflank. This also applies to a dedicated transport and any indepndent characters that have joined the unit.

Roll to see who goes first. You can roll to seize the initiative.

Primary Objective:
Place three objectives evenly spaced out along the center of the table. Randomly determine which objective is the alpha, beta & gamma. The alpha objective is worth 10 battlepoints, the beta & gamma objectives are worth 5 battlepoints each. The values are determined after deployment. Note that only scoring units can hold objectives. Any unit can contest.

Secondary Objective:
Reverse Kill Points - you score 2 killpoints for each of your HQ left alive at the end of the game, you score 1 killpoint for all other units left alive at the end of the game (i.e., each non HQ unit counts for 1 killpoint). Dedicated transports do count towards killpoints. Any squad which is broken does not count. Earned killpoints are converted to battlepoints.

Tertiary Objective:
Gain forward ground! Whichever army has the most scoring units within 6" of the enemy table edge scores an additional 5 battlepoints.

Bonus Points:
+3 - You have the most scoring units left at the end of the game. These units do not count if broken.
+2 - Your most expensive HQ is still alive and not broken. If you have two identical units then both must still be alive and not broken.

There are five normal turns. On a roll of 4+ on 1d6 there is a sixth turn. On a roll of 5+ there is a seventh turn. Do not start another new turn when 15 minute mark is called.

The mission looks good but is turn 6 on a 4+ a mistake? Shouldn't it be a 3+?

Shinkaze wrote:
The mission looks good but is turn 6 on a 4+ a mistake? Shouldn't it be a 3+?

A lot of places don't follow that standard format; at the Socal it was 3+ for a 6th turn, 5+ for a 7th turn, nothing after allowed.

Couple things on the mission:

1) Do transports bought by say elite units count for 2 each or just the unit that bought them? Might want to clarify how dedicated transports work for all the objective points.

2) The mission overall is hugely in favor of armies can that go MSU. There isn't really an upper limit. And some armies have a much easier time filling up force org slots.

3) Clearer language will be needed with scoring. It's to likely right now to result in people miscounting or simply misreading.

Hope that helps BBF. Good luck man.

Here are the modifications for the 1st mission based on feedback:

- HQ count as 2 killpoints & all other units count as 1 killpoint each.
- Dedicated transports do not count.
- Dedicated transport alone cannot hold an objective but can contest.



This is the second sample mission of three. Feel free to provide your feedback if you can think of a way to improve them. All missions will feature three main objectives plus some bonus points.

Beach Head
Your initial forces have established their position on the field of battle & must secure a vital objective.

Mission Rules: All normal mission rules are in effect. The fourth turn includes Night Fight and on a roll of 6 on 1d6 at the start of the fifth turn there is one more turn of Night Fight.

Deployment: Each player has an area on the table to deploy their army. This area is 18" out from the long table edge and 12" in from the short table edges. All heavy support must be held in reserve and comes in starting turn 2 on a 3+, turns 3 & 4 heavy support arrives on a 2+, turn 5 if any heavy support is still in reserve then it automatically arrives.

* Teleportation- You may select one non vehicle unit that can deep strike; note that this unit cannot be embarked in a vehicle. This unit must start in reserve and automatically arrives on turn 3. This unit cannot use icons, teleport homers, locator beacons or any other device that allows a deep striking unit to ignore scatter. The chosen unit scatters 3d6; use the small arrow if you roll a HIT. The unit can assault directly from the deep strike and benefits from the Furious Charge USR but is automatically destroyed if either a double is rolled for scatter (any 2 of the 3 dice) or if a mishap occurs. 

Roll to see who goes first. You can roll to seize the initiative.

Primary Objective:
Place one objective in the center of the table. Starting at the bottom of the 2nd turn the objective becomes mobile. Any non vehicle unit can secure control of the objective by moving into base contact during the movement phase. Once you have secured the objective you can then move it up to 6" during each subsequent movement plus another d6" if the controlling unit chooses to run. The controlling unit will lose control of the objective if assaulted or if they break. The player that can move the objective into their own deployment zone and keep it there by the end of the game scores 15 battlepoints. If the objective is in neither deployment zone at the end of the game then no battlepoints for the primary is awarded to either player. The objective cannot be placed embarked inside a transport.

Secondary Objective:
Kill Points - Each HQ is worth 2 killpoints, all other units are worth 1 killpoint each. Broken, fleeing and pinnedunits provide killpoints. A squad that has gone to ground counts as pinned. If a player scores 5 or more killpoints than their opponent at the end of the game then they are awarded an additional 5 killpoints. 

Tertiary Objective:
Leadership by Example! If an HQ moves the objective or is attached to a unit that moves the objective then that player scores an additional 5 battlepoints. Note that both players can score the tertiary.

Bonus Points:
+3 - You have the most scoring units left at the end of the game. These units do not count if broken or if pinned/gone to ground.
+2 - Your most expensive HQ is still alive, not broken or pinned/gone to ground & is in base contact with the objective at the end of the game. If you have two identical units then either one can score this bonus.

There are 6 normal turns. On a roll of 4+ there is a seventh turn. This roll cannot be rerolled. Do not start another new turn when the 15 minute mark is called.

I won't be attending (Florida is a bit far ) but I'm posting some constructive criticism for you since you asked (I know you wanted feedback on the missions, but I can't help but comment on the tournie scoring as well).

Black Blow Fly wrote:
Comp Breakdown
*Did your opponent have two or more identical units that are Heavy Support, Elite, HQ, or Fast Attack?
- Yes = 0 pts
- No = 5 pts (6 points total, 3% total)

This comp score is a bit fascinating to me because traditionally this kind of category has been used because TOs recognize that having duplicates of the same unit type is exponentially more difficult for the opponent to deal with. For example, dealing with just a single unit of Obliterators isn't so bad, but dealing with two units of Obliterators is far more difficult because the opponent is less likely to have enough counter-resources to deal with them before the Obliterators manage to cripple the enemy units that can hurt them back. Of course, 3 units of Obliterators is even worse!

So that's the traditional reason for this type of comp category, but you're going with a different take on it, not penalizing players for taking the same type of unit as long as they change just a single thing about the unit?

I'm having trouble seeing what the overall point of that comp restriction is? How is an army with 3 Immortal squads one with 8 guys, another with 9 guys and another with 10 guys really any different from an army that has 3 squads each with 9 guys in them? What is your reasoning behind penalizing the second army and not the first?

Are you just really, really against complete unit duplication even when the two armies described above are functionally identical?


IMHO, if you're going to do the 'unit duplication' penalty in this day and age you need to make it apply to any duplicate unit TYPE taken in the army, regardless of composition of the individual units AND (this is the kicker), you need to apply this penalty only to specific 'power units' that you define for each army in your tournament rules.

So for example you'd nominate power units like Obliterators, Monoliths, Bloodcrushers, etc, for every army and the more units of these players take the more of a hit they take on your comp.

Of course, I'm ultimately against this kind of comp score for a tournament all together, but if you're going to do it, you really should have some sort of quantifiable reason for having the penalty.

If all players need to do in order to avoid the penalty is to equip ONE guy in the unit with a different weapon, then what exactly is this particular comp restriction accomplishing for your tournie?

*Did your opponent have three or more troops?
- Yes = 5 pts (6 points total, 3% total)
- No = 0 pts

Again, this seems like a really strange score to have in this day and age. Players are already massively punished by missions themselves through the idea of scoring units (you need them to capture objectives), so why would you include a further comp penalty? If someone really wants to take their chances running with only 2 Troops choices, why would you penalize them?

*How would you judge his/her theme?
- 0 (Win At All Costs)
- 5 (Lots of nasty combos)
- 10 (fair army)
- 15 (This army represents its background very well) (18 points total, 9% total)

This category is a bit strange because the last choice (represents its background very well) doesn't fit with the rest of the selections. For example there are some army builds that 'represent their background well' are also 'win at all costs' or have 'lots of nasty combos' and armies that 'win at all costs' typically are full of 'lots of nasty combos'.

Your scoring guidelines need to all be on the same consistent rubric. So for example (and if you did change it to something like this, I would also change the title of this section simply to army 'power level' or something like that):

- 0 (My opponent's army is one of the absolute strongest type of forces that can be fielded with their codex).
- 5 (My opponent's army is one of the stronger types of forces that can be fielded with their codex, but not the strongest possible).
- 10 (My opponent's army is one of the weaker types of forces that can be fielded with their codex, but not the weakest).
- 15 (My opponent's army is one of the absolute weakest types of forces that can be fielded with their codex).


The reason I present this as an alternative is because ultimately it isn't very fair that some armies get to be scored well because they are both well-themed AND incredibly powerful, while other codexes feature themed armies that tend to blow.

I mean, I guess if all you're really trying to do is promote themed armies, then that's your decision, but still the rubric should at least be consistent:

- 0 (My opponent's army does a terrible job capturing the background themes in their codex).
- 5 (My opponent's army does a fairly poor job capturing the background themes in their codex).
- 10 (My opponent's army does a fairly good job capturing the background themes in their codex).
- 15 (My opponent's army is a perfect example of the background themes presented in their codex).

How would you rate your opponent?
- 0 (Would not play them again)
- 5 (Lots of rules arguments) (50 points total)
- 10 (Fair) (100 points total)
- 15 (This was my favorite game ever) (150 points total)

I personally have a pet peeve with the 'this was my favorite game ever' score as really the times you have your best game ever should be very, very rare. The problem is, some players take this literally and almost never give out a max score even if they had a fantastic game while other players simply take it as a 'great' game and give it out as such, so you have a real dichotomy based on a really poor choice of wording.

I mean, shouldn't there be SOME category in between 'fair' and 'the best game ever' that most tournament games should fall into?

How about:

- 0 (Would prefer to never play this person again).
- 5 (Would play against this person again, but wouldn't particularly look forward to it).
- 10 (Would gladly play against this person again, but wouldn't go out of my way to do so).
- 15 (Would definitely go out of my way to play against this person again).

Sports Breakdown
*Did your opponent argue about rules, roll dice too fast, have disputes about terrain, slow play, not move or measure properly?
- Yes = 0 pts
- No = 5 pts

I would definitely make this a checklist each worth 1 point.

- Did your opponent make a good faith effort to resolve rules disagreements in a fair manner? (Yes: 1 pt, No: 0 pts)
- Did your opponent clearly explain what he was rolling for and allow you a chance to witness the results of his rolls? (Yes: 1 pt, No: 0 pts)
- Did your opponent amicably agree on how the terrain features would function during the game? (Yes: 1 pt, No: 0 pts)
- Did you feel that your opponent purposefully played at a slow pace in order to deny you a chance to finish the game? (Yes: 0 pts, No: 1 pt)
- Did you feel that your opponent measured and moved his models accurately? (Yes: 1 pt, No: 0 pts).



And those are my thoughts on your tournament scoring.

I'll try to give you some feedback on your missions if I get the time (but no promises).


Good luck with the tournie!

I spoke with my partner Yuri & we will most likely require anyone entering the gaming hall to sign a release form for use of any recording equipment.

G


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is the second sample mission of three. I have modified this mission to hopefully make it simpler to play. Feel free to provide your feedback if you can think of a way to improve them. All missions will feature three main objectives plus some bonus points.

Beach Head
Your initial forces have established their position on the field of battle & must secure an extremely vital objective.

Mission Rules: All normal mission rules are in effect.

•The fourth turn includes Night Fight and on a roll of 5+ on 1d6 at the start of the fifth turn there is one more turn of Night Fight.

Deployment: Each player has an area on the table to deploy their army. This area is 18" out from the long table edge and 12" in from the short table edges.

•All heavy support must be held in reserve and comes in starting turn 2 on a 3+. If any heavy support is still in reserve starting on turn 3 then they automatically arrive.

* Teleportation - You may select one non vehicle unit that can deep strike; note that this unit cannot be embarked in a vehicle. This unit must start in reserve and automatically arrives on turn 3. This unit cannot use icons, teleport homers, locator beacons or any other device that allows a deep striking unit to ignore scatter. The chosen unit scatters 2d6; use the small arrow if you roll a HIT. This unit cannot split into combat squads. The unit can assault directly from the deep strike and benefits from the Furious Charge or Relentless USR (your choice) but automatically mishaps if a double is rolled. No other unit can ever join this squad and the USR you choose remains in effect throughout the rest of the game. This unit cannot move the objective (see below). 

Roll to see who goes first. You can roll to seize the initiative.

Primary Objective:
Place one objective in the center of the table. Starting at the bottom of the 2nd turn the objective becomes mobile. Any non vehicle unit can secure control of the objective by moving into base contact during the movement phase. Once you have secured the objective you can then move it up to 6" in any direction horizontally during each subsequent movement. You can also move the objective another d6" if the controlling unit chooses to run, including any turn you take control of the objective. The controlling unit will lose control of the objective if assaulted, if they assault, or if they break. The player that can move the objective into their own deployment zone and keep it there by the end of the game scores 15 battlepoints. If the objective is in neither deployment zone at the end of the game then no battlepoints for the primary is awarded to either player. The objective cannot ever be placed embarked inside a transport.

Secondary Objective:
Kill Points - Each HQ is worth 2 killpoints, all other units are worth 1 killpoint each. Broken, fleeing and pinned units provide killpoints. A squad that has gone to ground counts as pinned. If a player scores 5 or more killpoints than their opponent at the end of the game then they are awarded an additional 5 killpoints. 

Tertiary Objective:
Leadership by Example! If an HQ moves the objective or is attached to a unit that moves the objective then that player scores an additional 5 battlepoints. If an HQ controls the objective or is joined to a squad controlling the objective then they are fearless and benefit from the Feel No Pain USR while controlling the objective. Both players can score the tertiary.

Bonus Points:
+3 - You have the most scoring units left at the end of the game. These units do not count if broken or if pinned/gone to ground.
+2 - Your most expensive HQ is still alive, not broken or pinned/gone to ground & is in base contact with the objective at the end of the game. If you have two or more identical HQ units then either one can score this bonus but not both!

There are 6 normal turns. On a roll of 3+ there is a seventh turn. This roll cannot be rerolled. Do not start another new turn when the 15 minute mark is called.

This is the third sample mission of three. Feel free to provide your feedback if you can think of a way to improve them. All missions will feature three main objectives plus some bonus points.

Hold Your Ground
The war continues... You have suffered losses but are now firmly entrenched. The enemy is countering by bringing to bare more troops from reserve. You must hold your ground at all costs!

Mission Rules: All normal mission rules are in effect.

•A large storm looms on the horizon as the enemy moves in towards your battleline. Massive black storm clouds fill the sky with huge bolts of lightning striking down.
- At the beginning of each odd numbered turn roll for Night Fight, on a roll of 5+ on 1d6 use the Night Fight rule that turn.
- At the beginning of each player even numbered turn roll 1d6 for each unit in that player's army. On a roll of 1 the unit is struck by lightning and suffers one S8 AP1 shooting attack. Shots on vehicles hit side armor. There are no cover saves allowed.

Deployment: Spearhead

* Fearless - You may select one non vehicle unit which becomes fearless. 

Roll to see who goes first. You can roll to seize the initiative.

Primary Objective:
Place one objective in the corner of both players' deployment zones. Each objective is placed in 3" from the long table edge & 3" in from the short table edge. The objective must be placed on the ground level, not on an upper floor or top of any terrain. You score 10 battlepoints for controlling your opponent's objective & 5 battlepoints for controlling your own objective. Only scoring units can control or contest an objective. 

Secondary Objective:
Kill Points - Each HQ is worth 2 killpoints, all other units are worth 1 killpoint each. Broken/fleeing units award kilpoints. If a player scores 8 or more killpoints than their opponent at the end of the game then they are awarded an additional 5 killpoints. 

Tertiary Objective:
All or Nothing! If a player controls both objectives then he/she scores an additional 5 battlepoints.

Bonus Points:
+3 - You have the most scoring units left at the end of the game. These units do not count if broken/fleeing.
+2 - Your most expensive HQ is in base contact with the enemy objective. If you have two or more identical HQ units then either one can score this bonus but not both!

There are 5 normal turns. On a roll of 3+ there is a sixth turn. On a roll of 4+ there is a seventh turn. Neither roll can be rerolled. Do not start another new turn when the 15 minute mark is called.

I don't think anyone will be able to complete the second objective. Being 8 KP ahead at 1850 is pretty much only possible if the battle is a complete rout, even with the bonus KP on HQs.

I think a good mark for any mission in a GT mission is separation. I am open to any suggestions how to improve any mission posted here. Please feel free to make recommendations.

G

I guess just lowering it to 5 or so would be good. Or, maybe change it up a tad - make the secondary objective having more killpoints and eliminating the enemy HQs or just the enemy General.

How has the mission faired in your playtesting? Is the objective regularly obtained?

All of the missions are being heavily playtested to see if they have any quirks. The third mission was designed to be harder than the first two. I have seen one army table another quite often in general as such I don't think a margin of 8 killpoints is unreasonable. The first Ard Boyz mission used in the finals last year had something similar. Personally I think it should be a challenge to score full points, otherwise each round half the players massacre & the other half are tabled, not much fun for those that got tabled and it's hard to have much separation in battlepoints for those who won. Seeing one golden ticket will be going to best general it's only fitting that the missions be challenging.

G

I think you should absolutely take Yakface's advice.

You've gotten a lot of comments on the scoring system you were using, on its ambiguity and strangeness. I love going to a GT, and while an 11 hour drive isn't out of the question (given that I just flew 3,000 miles to play in another GT) having a scoring system that I can't figure out / am uncomfortable with is what ultimately swayed me to take this one off the Calendar (well, already having my Golden Ticket was a factor too).

I've seen a lot of other posts in this thread to the same tune; would be good to get some transparency and clearly defined scoring mechanisms in place that folks can look at and say, "Yeah...that's fair."

Hi Dash. Maybe I will see you at hte Ard Boyz finals. Good luck with the rest of your season.

G

Okay folks here is feedback regarding the scoring system for composition, theme & sportsmanship:

* The system has drawn some heavy criticism from people outside the local area (i.e., central Florida, western Florida, Jacksonville & as far down south as Fort Myers to Fort Lauderdale). While it might not be apparent to an outside observer a lot of thought & discussion went into this scoring system. We are just over one month away from the event & many of the people who have registered are busy working on their armies they will bring. It would be unfair to them to make big changes now at this late date. As an outside observer you are probably unaware that many people here play both 40k & fantasy. While the two games are separate from each other many of the central tenets such as composition are held in both systems. Composition is more of an issue for fantasy players when compared to 40k players but since there is a large percentage of local players that participate in bothb gaming systems it's hard to separate one from the other. The vast majority of players who have already registered are from Florida.

* From an Internet based perspective you are never going to win a lot of support when you include soft scores. That's just the way it is and a lot of people who have no intention to actually come and play will chime in & ding you. We see it all the time here & elsewhere on the Internet. I personally like using composition as part of the soft scores because it is an extra incentive to design an army that is at least somewhat unique. To me nothing is more boring than playing against the same builds over the course of two days and I have had that experience many times. This is my own personal perception though and I don't want to overly penalize players who don't design their lists to my own standard. I will even go so far as to say that penalizing players for using units that are categorized as being very powerful is a big no no. Who is to say there is some combination of units that has managed to fly under the radar is not just as or more powerful than Blood Crushers & Fateweaver, or lash princes & Oblits? I have seen many armies initially labeled as very weak then someone comes along & crushes face... Dark Eldar & Speed Freaks from 3ed immediately come to mind. So at the end of the day we wanted a light composition system that does not heavily penalize players based upon our own personal views. Like I said you will never make a lot of friends on hte Internet when you promote any type of composition... And while a casual outside observer might have some suggestions they will most likely not be aware of the local views. We made a decision to award one golden ticket to the person who wins the best general award as a concession to everyone that is not in favor of soft scores.

* So I have talked about composition. There is still the subject of theme & sportsmanship. Again these two categories fall under the heading of soft scores. I am a big fan of theme & to me it is closely tied to composition. Sure it is possible to design an army that has a strong theme & is also quite powerful but how often do you see these types of armies? They are there but I feel confident in saying in least based upon my experience they are seldom ever seen. Of course that is just my opinion though & we want to be fair when it comes to this category. I think most of us here can agree that there are certain builds that are performing the best overall at the various events that have been held so far this year. I think if someone can design a truly novel army then they deserve to win some points for their originality. On the subject of sportsmanship we want a measure in place to provide incentive for gamers to handle themselves in such a manner that their opponents have the opportunity to enjoy every game keeping in mind that they also conduct themselves in a like manner. Sportsmanship can certainly be gamed and there is no getting around that so we wanted to provide a scoring system that is not heavy handed but still promotes people being friendly while playing. Obviously no one should award more than one opponent the highest mark for sportsmanship and we will be quite vigilant. I certainly don't want to hear that a player was brow beating their opponents for high marks in sportsmanship, composition or theme after a game is over.

* We want to have some challenging missions that are fun to play and not designed to penalize any particular build. We are currently conducting a lot of playtesting and soliciting feedback from anyone that would like to provide their input. Everything is open on the public domain. We want to provide a transparent system.

So that is my candid feedback for what it is worth.

G

There have been some changes made to the sample missions based on playtest feedback. The best place to view the revised missions is over on the 40k WC Bolter Beach forum. We have just over 50 players signed up now for the 40k GT & the 40k team tourney is almost full. Here is hte link to the Bolter Beach forum for those interested:

http://40kwreckingcrew.aceboard.com/331128-6126-0-Bolter-Beach.htm

G

$.02, since you list the registered people on your website, you may want to update it to reflect all the nearly-full team sign-ups and the 50+ names, so that people are more encouraged to get in while they still can.

- Mike

My partner has the names of the people not shown. Hopefully I'll be able to get them up soon.

G

Quick news flash... While we have lots of players signed up we can always have more so feel to register if you haven't yet & want to play.

: )

G

Sounds really cool! Wish I could go.

I do think Yak's feedback is really good, and is very much in line (though more in-depth) with my thoughts when I first took a look at the scoring.

hey... Magic the gathering events are broadcast on ESPN... why not warhammer?

You should contact them : p

Only if that send that one broadcast lady... I think ya know the one I am referring to.

G

1) Where is Bolter Beach going to be located?

8440 North Tamiami Trail, Sarasota FL 34243 

I will ask Yuri to provide clear directions to the event location coming from I-75 or the local airport. Directions will be posted soon so keep an eye for them!


2) How many copies of my list do I need to bring?

* You will need to bring 7 copies of your list and they should all be in clear type (i.e., not hand written) with the points listed for each unit & every option. All options must be clearly listed & there should be no questions. Each army list should be neatly stapled. Do yourself a big favor by making your army lists clearly legible with all the pertinent information included. If there is any question about any unit and it is unclear you may be required not to use this unit(s). If you think there is any potential for possible confusion then contact Yuri or myself ASAP so we can get it sorted in advance.


3) How will the judges operate?

* There will be at least two walking judges for each event. The 40k GT will have four walking judges. If you have a question about a rule and cannot resolve it with your opponent then have all pertinent rules on hand & contact one of the judges. All decisions from a judge are final. Once a decision has been reached continue with your game.

* Sportsmanship is very important to our staff and we want everyone to have a great time. It's all about everybody being able to enjoy the event and having fun. Everybody likes to win but it's not always possible so please keep that in mind. Always try your best to remain calm when working through any discussions regarding the rules. All of our judges are veteran players and have a lot of experience. Always be on your best behavior at all times. There is no need to resort to cursing, shouting or any other unruly behavior. Repeated instances of such behavior will be dealt with in a strict & swift manner. Don't make us have to tell you to leave because of repeated cases of unacceptable bad behavior. The judges will be on the lookout for slow play so please keep your games moving at a suitable pace. In general slow play is highly discouraged & will not be tolerated.

4) When will the registration occur?

* We will have the first registration starting at 7:30am on Friday morning. Have a copy of your list for each army you intend to play. Obviously not everyone will be playing in the 40k team tourney or LoTR tournament so we will have another registration open at 5pm on Friday that will run to 8pm. There will also be a final registration on Saturday morning at 7:30am again. Please make sure to arrive on time, it's always best to arrive ahead of time if possible so don't wait until the last second.

Time tables for each event will be posted here soon so again keep an eye out!

Final Note - Some of the previous Indy GTs held earlier this year have been marred by people videotaping games then opening them to the public domain via vehicles such as YouTube. As noted above any questions or disputes regarding the rules must be addressed during your game by contacting a judge for help if you cannot reach a suitable agreement for both yourself & your opponent. The worst time to argue about a possible rules infraction is following the game in which it occurred. As such video recording devices will not be allowed in the gaming area and as part of the registration you will be asked to sign a waiver giving your consent to abide by this term. This also applies to any casual observers who might wish to watch a game in progress. Casual observers are welcome if they abide by said request & must refrain from getting involved in the discussion of any rules, this is a responsibility of our judges. Also casual observers must refrain from offering tactical advice or any other comments that could possibly affect the outcome of any game. Casual observers caught breaking these rules will be asked to leave the gaming area and not return. While this might sound like an overly strict policy it has been put in place to avoid just these types of situations and for good reason.

G

=][=

Does your prohibition on video recording devices extend to still-frame cameras?

Still frame cameras are fine.

: )


G

NEW LOCATION
We have decided to move our venue to the brand new Dark Side Comics shop. Their store is over 6,000 square feet and has plenty of tables!

Dark Side Comics
Towne & Country Plaza
501 N Beneva Rd, Suite #260
Sarasota, FL 34232

Use Google Maps to get directions (http://maps.google.com)!

TIME TABLES
FRIDAY, JUNE 4th
7:30am -> Onsite registration (40k Team Tourney, LoTR, 40k GT & Fantasy GT)
8:30am -> 40k Team Tourney & LoTR Announcements
9:00am -> 11:30am 40k Team Tourney Game #1, LoTR starts
11:30am - 12:30pm -> Lunch Break
1:00pm - 3:30pm -> 40k Team Tourney Game #2
3:30pm - 4:00pm -> Break
4:00pm - 6:30pm -> 40k Team Tourney Game #3
7:00pm -> Awards Ceremony

SATURDAY, JUNE 5th
7:30am -> Onsite registration (40k GT & Fantasy GT)
8:30am -> Announcements
9:00am -> 11:30am 40k GT & Fantasy GT Game #1
11:30am - 12:30pm -> Lunch Break
1:00pm - 3:30pm -> 40k GT & Fantasy GT Game #2
3:30pm - 4:00pm -> Break
4:00pm - 6:30pm -> 40k GT & Fantasy GT Game #3

SUNDAY, JUNE 6TH
7:30am -> Announcements
8:00am -> 10:30am 40k GT & Fantasy GT Game #4
10:30am - 11:30am -> Brunch Break
11:30pm - 2:00pm -> 40k GT & Fantasy GT Game #5
2:00pm - 2:30pm -> Break
2:30pm -> Awards Ceremony

Team tourney missions will be posted soon.

G

The 40k team tourney missions are posted over on the 40k WC forums. Take a look & let me know what you think.

G

We now have 50+ players registered for the 40k GT & there will be at least 10 teams for the 40k team tournament. We also have an LoTR tournament on Friday and of course there is also the Fantasy GT. You can still signup if you want to play.

Aaron Hagney from the Fort Myers area was kind enough to design objective markers and gold medallions for Bolter Beach.  
 
Here are some pictures of the new Bolter Beach Objective Markers:






And finally here are our Bolter Beach Gold Medallions we will be handing out to our top winners:



I think Aaron did a great job.

G

Those objective markers ROCK.

Way to go!

They make for excellent beer coasters as well.

G

Steve awesome that you got Aaron to make those. He is a awesome Artist

beer

Very nice.

GOOD LUCK TO EVERYONE COMING! See you all soon.

G

We will have six different battleforces to be handed out as door prizes.

G

Hi everyone!

We will kick off on Friday morning with the LoTR event and 40k team tourney! Looks like there will be around 100 people coming out. Thanks to everyone who has signed up!

: )

G

Could you post the link to the Wrecking Crew forum about Bolter Beach?

Thank you.

Here ya go!

http://40kwreckingcrew.aceboard.com/331128-6126-0-Bolter-Beach.htm

G

Are spectators allowed? I might just want to go to take photos.

You can take still shots but no video recording is allowed.

G