So I've been looking at Space Mariens a lot now and something's come across my mind. I never see them holding any extra clips for their bolters. On the everyday soldier they tend to carry a lot of bullets, but in 40k do they Space Marine's only get one magazine? Or do they have like a secret built in compartment in their...ass. Yeah, let's go with ass for now. So do they have one mag or does it pop out of their rear when needed?

They hold them in backpack and backpack holds about 6 magazines.

Oh, well reaching there seems a lil' bit inconvenient ._.

I thought that the backpack was a power generator for the armor?

All the tac marines have pouches on their belts. I'd assume ammo comes from there.

Also, Space Marines don't need extra ammo. If the enemy isn't dead after the first clip is expended... Exterminatus.

I always figured the belts were too small to hold a clip of bolter rounds.

They must be magic belts. Wait, I know! They keep it in their oversize shoulder pads!

I wish know how many ammo is into the backpack of an SM carring a heavy boltgun

Well, actual soldiers tend to carry up to 3 spare clips, some 4, but only if they tape anoter clip to the one that's loaded on the gun.

Fun fact of the day.

Christ! The oversided pauldrons actually make sense now!

When possible, I give my Marines ammo pouches to avoid this problem. I believe the small pouches are bolt pistol magazines and the larger ones are for bolters.

They have pouches. And I thought the thing one their back was a vent/generator for their power armour, as well as a backpack?

Some Grey Knight Terminator models have have entire clips of storm bolter ammo kept on the hip.

Powered Armour Grey Knights have an ammo belt that comes from the back.

I think the backpack is a power generator, but thier must be extra space. This is perhaps where they keep the magazines, perhaps not the ones for immediate use, but this is likely. As they consolidate on to an objective they could get out the magazines and put them in the pouches, i mean they can hardly have a picnic in the backpacks can they??

Shoulders.

definitely the shoulders.

Dark wrote:Well, actual soldiers tend to carry up to 3 spare clips, some 4, but only if they tape anoter clip to the one that's loaded on the gun.

Fun fact of the day.

What army and time period? Modern US soldiers carry six spare magazines. No tape required, the pouches that come with the standard load bearing equipment are meant to hold that much.

I figure that 40k miniatures and artwork don't quite look like the warriors they represent. Little bits of kit that an actual soldier would need but are not terribly exciting get played down in favor of making the model look good. Space Marines probably do have capacious ammo pouches somewhere, but modeling them accurately would make them less pretty.

Anyone ever read brotherhood of the iron snake. In it abnette creates this idea that bolts are on some kind of belt as they run dry of ammo but never smack in another clip (from what I remember. Maybe all the bolts are internal and there OVER 9000 of them.

Secondly the backpack carries the power generator for the armor as well as waste managment and sensor processing

Dark wrote:Well, actual soldiers tend to carry up to 3 spare clips, some 4, but only if they tape anoter clip to the one that's loaded on the gun.
Fun fact of the day.

I suppose it depends on what branch of the military and which country you are from, but my basic LBE carried six thirty rounders, later my LBV carried eight, and the rack I use now holds at least ten. I think I can squeeze fifteen into it, but it would be balls to pull them out. Not to mention the one in my WEAPON (not gun) and the two back-ups attached to my pant belt. Just in case I had to ditch my vest for whatever reason.

Well, actual soldiers tend to carry up to 3 spare clips, some 4, but only if they tape anoter clip to the one that's loaded on the gun.
Fun fact of the day.

Well, Skinnattittar and Raxmei pretty much beat me to it, but they're both right. 6 extra mags is standard for Soldiers these days.

Unless you are like me and carry around a Beta C-mag... just for those times when 3-round burst is needed and you dont want to change mags every few seconds.

Try Again Bragg wrote:
Secondly the backpack carries the power generator for the armor as well as waste managment and sensor processing

And this happens AFTER I take the backpacks off of my repainted Grey Knights... Wonderful.

Ammo goes IN the enemy, duh.

As in previous posts back is not just a mini-fusipn reactor power the armor but also it procceses other things like cooling of the armor.

Wow I'd never would have guessed at first that the back pack was that important @_@

I always figured those really small panels on the legs held an extra magazine. Like, inside the armor. Plus extras if they have the pouches. And of course because everyone has an invisible Skyhawk, they can probably get ammo crates dropped in.

Anyway, my Drill SGT. told me recommended combat load was 270 rounds. I wouldn't know really. I tried to off my self in AIT a few times so they sent me home.

I vaguely remember reading that the magazines have magnets that allow Marines to stick them to any part of their armor they want. Does anyone else remember this, or am I just making it up?

I seem to recall reading that the magazines are stored in the backpack but are not normally supposed to be used by the carrier.
Rather, the space marines work in pairs and as one of them stands at the front firing, the other remains at back, grabs a clip from the firing guy's backpack and reloads.
When the firing guy runs out of ammo they switch places.

Now if I could only find the source..

jp400 wrote:Unless you are like me and carry around a Beta C-mag... just for those times when 3-round burst is needed and you dont want to change mags every few seconds.

Yeah, I tried C-mags before, but I found even new ones tend to jam when they are fresh and when you're nearly expended. They also really throw off my aim, seem to wear out quick, and are prone to double feeds with a full load.

Here (or so I think....)

vodo40k wrote:Here (or so I think....)

That's the thing I was talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvMuxHO2cOI

In their hoodies.

At vodo40k i thought that was the intake for the ventilation while the ones that are at the top of the pack were the exhaust. I dont know for sure thats just what makes sense to me.

I would bet that a belt leading from the "backpack" to the bolter would hold several hundred rounds and require an advance feeding system (not advancED, but advance, as in forward) which would leave a considerable amount of ammunition in the belt once the magazine went dry....

I, myself, have gone through the pains of procuring enough large pouches for all my Marine models., and the shear number of small pouches I have I could probably load them out pretty well.

The Landspeeder Storm has bitz of bolter mag boxes. Maybe the scouts are stuck with those until they graduate to big-boy backpacks.

I think the answer I prefer the most right now is "In the enemy"

I still prefer my shoulder theory.

The shoulder pad theory makes me lol.

I'm kinda curious though, how many bullets does a bolter hold? It looks like it has a box clip that could hold as many as 30 rounds, considering each bolt is like a rocket, do they ever need more bullets? (Also, there are probably spare bullets in the rhino)

Edit: and I was looking at sternguard models for the 'box clip' thing....but still, how many bullets?

http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K__10_Bolter.shtml

Go down to the part of the "ammo stores"

Guys, it's all just fluff. You know, the stuff you have to hoover up from under the sofa every couple of months.

vodo40k wrote:Here (or so I think....)

Nope. Those are just additional exhaust ports. The old 3rd Ed SM Dex gave a breakdown of the backpack power system.

there are additional bits on the sprues for extra ammo pouches and whatnot, most people just don't bother to put them on all their minis.

There's a picture of a space marine in IA3 with three spare magazines attached to the outside of his right thigh by some means that is not readily apparent. His left side is not visible, but there might be more there. The magazines are said to contain twenty rounds.

A more relevant discussion would be the feasibility of bolters when their typical ammo capacity is taken into consideration...*hides*

Or rather, what that Capacity even is. GW is sitting steadfast at between 30-35 rounds for a standard mag. THQ believes it's closer to 15.

I'm going with GW for the standard capacity of the Bolter's sickle mag, as they -are- the owners of the IP.

Most assault rifles carry a capacity per mag of roughly 30 rounds, give or take depending on the weapon. So I see Bolters as perfectly feasible. Besides, when you have a machine gun that fires mini rockets, I'm pretty sure you'd be hard pressed NOT to shave your head and run screaming into battle.

Point, but SWs, for the most part, apparently have infinite ammo anyway(judging by some fiction).

Ronin-Sage wrote:Point, but SWs, for the most part, apparently have infinite ammo anyway(judging by some fiction).

They also use lots of MULTILAZ0RZ, according to 'some fiction'

But yea, according to GW, each sickle mag holds 30. Storm Bolters hold 60, and Box mags hold 90. Pintle Mounted Storm Bolters carry 180 rounds.

That's all from various Codi, Rulebooks, Stories, etc...

So from what people are saying, an "average" Space Marine holds about 90-150 rounds?

Uhhhhhh, that doesn't seem like alot when they's be shootin' like crazy during planetary invasions...

Yeah...I always thought bolter rounds would take up a considerably larger amount of space than your standard bullet.

Doombot001 wrote:So from what people are saying, an "average" Space Marine holds about 90-150 rounds?

Uhhhhhh, that doesn't seem like alot when they's be shootin' like crazy during planetary invasions...

They probably set up resupply posts ASAP once they've made planetfall. Besides, when you can tear someone limb from limb with your bare hands while shrugging off las shots and bullets, I'm pretty sure Ammo seems almost trivial for the most part

I think I also saw that the mags were magnetic, that would make alot of sense. And I also think GKs don't need their backpack, they can be fueled by faith and awesomeness.

They don't need to carry extra ammo. All the ammo they'll ever need is in that one magazine.

Think about it.
Even if they rapid fired every turn of a 7 turn game, (unlikely) that's only 14 shots fired for the whole game. And if the mag is 30 rounds, they have enough ammo for two whole games!

my friend ses that the vents are part of a jetpack but i sed no because there are jump packs am i right?

Yep.........but not good at spelling.

I've got a private theory about where SMs keep spare ammo.

the codpiece?

A bit further back than that.

There must be a secret hatch in the armor. A fact I'm sure slaneshi marines take advantage of frequently.

Does Anyone have the Original Deathwing Rule book, i am sure in there was drawing of a Terminator taking ammo for his storm bolter out of his back. I maybe wrong i last saw it 15 years ago.... Or maybe it is the Literature thats in it, cannot remember that well.

I'm gonna have to go with the pauldron theory. After all, there's no OTHER conceivable reason for those ungodly huge things.

Plus, position-wise it'd be great. You just reach across, grab a clip, and slap it in.

Hmm, maybe thats why they have those little indents in them...

The ammo is carried by powder monkeys but they are never shown in the artwork.

Killkrazy wrote :- The ammo is carried by powder monkeys but they are never shown in the artwork.

Makes sense, but of course they would have to be genetically enhanced super Powder Monkeys (Adeptus Simian) a Space Marine would not take a Bolter Mag from a normal Monkey....

Plus i believe the Slanneshi Marines did some right weird stuff with their powder Monkeys.....here Monkey, Monkey lets play hide the sausage!

THAT WAS ONE TIME AND I WAS DRUNK!!!!

LOL!!!11!!!!1!!!!!11111!!1!!!1!!1!1!!!11!!!!!!!111
Excuses... I say.

The backpack is the suits power supply for the suit as well as life support for places with no oxygen.

But I think I read book about SM "tech" and there is extra space in the backpack.

After doing some reading there is supposedly some room there to hold magazines, and as previously mentioned they work as a team. There's some sort of network they're connected to to allow them always know where a magazine should be and such

Ammo goes in the enemy.

Besides, when you have a machine gun that fires mini rockets, I'm pretty sure you'd be hard pressed NOT to shave your head and run screaming into battle

That sir is damn epic. i might have to sig that..

My theory is that they are desendents of solid snake and thu can carry all their equipment and ammo using a sliding box bar ;p

Superscope wrote:

Besides, when you have a machine gun that fires mini rockets, I'm pretty sure you'd be hard pressed NOT to shave your head and run screaming into battle

That sir is damn epic. i might have to sig that..

My theory is that they are desendents of solid snake and thu can carry all their equipment and ammo using a sliding box bar ;p

You know you want to.

If they're the descendants of Solid Snake, they have infinite ammo thanks to their Infinite Ammo bandanas

Or, like Snake as well, they have a hardcore weapons dealer/pimp/drug dealer.

http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K__10_Bolter.shtml
if you go down to the ammo stores section this guy gives a pretty good explanation of what he thinks is going on.
overall this guys stuff for space marines is pretty interesting but his descriptions of the IG are no good IMO.

Just assume that the gun never runs out of ammo. It may not be realistic but it will save your sanity.

I think there is a genentic modification to the SM that if they need ammo the can just eat metal and crap ammo out.

40k is a futuristic fantasy game. They have unlimited ammo in one clip

I thought those were some kind of vents? Maybe I'm wrong though. Still it seems like a difficult way to reload when they good just be on the belt.

All the tac marines have pouches on their belts. I'd assume ammo comes from there.

Also, Space Marines don't need extra ammo. If the enemy isn't dead after the first clip is expended... Exterminatus.

Right, tell that to the advancing sea of nid warriors...

The entire concept of SM ammo is flawed.
Marines are geneered for extended field work (eat anything, learn by eating, no sleep etc etc) but their main weapon are designed to be a 10 second use thing. Another of GWs fun slipups.

The rounds they use are huge, they would weigh in at around 200gr each making one bolter magazine weigh 6-8Kg. That is a LOT.
Now modern special forces carry around 300 rounds each, 1000 for the SAW support and all those rounds are meant to be used pretty much as a means to escape if the squad is detected.
A short intense firefight while withdrawing.

Imagine a space marine carrying 10 spare magazines, doable even if the guy would be loaded with spares all over his armour.
He would add a grown mans body weight in ammunition alone.
Imagine the heavy bolter dev support marine with his already 50Kg heavy bolter, he would have to carry around an extra 250Kg of ammo alone.

The best defence vs space marines is thus to have a lot of numbers and/or have a stronghold situated in a swamp or marshland or in buildings on top of stairs.
The poor marines would sink to their necks while trying to approach and any form of rough terrain would be impossible to cover.
And if we talk about a commander with botler + ammo and a jump pack I would certainly want to see him get of the ground.

There is simply NO way what so ever marines can hold the line against enemies like nids or fight anything other then short firefights with the big rounds their bolters require. Common guardsmen would be far more effective in holding against nids since they can all carry far more rounds or energy packs and pour our far more fire then the marines will ever be able to.

For a SM force to function in any battle that is the slightest protracted they would require constand drop pods deployed at their positions loaded with ammo and the rhinos accompanying them wouldnt carry passengers, they would carry extra ammunition.
Just theke the fluff about Shrike and his squads shredding orks 2 years behind their lines. I wonder, with what, rocks? Thier bolter ammo would have ran out the very first firefight, ork guns dont work in their hands and the jungles arent exactly crawling with mining facilities, smeltries, chemical plants and logistics to ferry all that material of to bolter ammunition factories.
*DUH*


The perfect solution would be if space marines came with a beefed up S4 hellgun since it is directly plugged into the backpack energy generator and would in practical terms mean a space marine would never run out of ammo (thus save tremendous amounts of weight and logistics). A few extra batteries would provide for hundreds of shots while the backpack is constantly recharging the empty cells.
But hey, this is GW we are talking about, the same guys who created the most powerful tank in the imperium, the landraider and gave it the same armour protection as the WW2 sherman.

Space Marines come with magazines that you can attach to their legs...

Lol, attach 10 magazines to their legs and see how that would look and work

The perfect solution would be if space marines came with a beefed up S4 hellgun since it is directly plugged into the backpack energy generator and would in practical terms mean a space marine would never run out of ammo

Consider that idea stolen :p

vodo40k wrote:

The perfect solution would be if space marines came with a beefed up S4 hellgun since it is directly plugged into the backpack energy generator and would in practical terms mean a space marine would never run out of ammo

Consider that idea stolen :p

Or, better yet, load them out with Multilaz0rz

Raxmei wrote:

Dark wrote:Well, actual soldiers tend to carry up to 3 spare clips, some 4, but only if they tape anoter clip to the one that's loaded on the gun.

Fun fact of the day.

What army and time period? Modern US soldiers carry six spare magazines. No tape required, the pouches that come with the standard load bearing equipment are meant to hold that much.

I figure that 40k miniatures and artwork don't quite look like the warriors they represent. Little bits of kit that an actual soldier would need but are not terribly exciting get played down in favor of making the model look good. Space Marines probably do have capacious ammo pouches somewhere, but modeling them accurately would make them less pretty.

I had seven full mags (one in my M4 and six on my vest) not counting the five for my pistol (one in the M9 and two in the mag pouch on the holster and two more on my vest). In addition, there were ten more mags in an ammo-can at my feet in the 1025. Not counting all the extra ammo still in the cans for the 240 and 249s, grenades, flares, smokes...etc etc etc.
Most of my team carried about the same or more.

I think that GW doesn't mould all the extra crap on their figs for the same reason you don't see people re-load in the movies.

When I was playing Time Crisis in the arcade I never saw where the ammo came from, I just kept on shooting!!

But this is warhammer, not some stupid imaginary computer game....eh?

I'm going to try to litter my battlefield with loads of ammo crates and spare clips.

I'd agree with some of the comments above, that if the marine isn't carrying the extra clips in his magic backpack then its in the transport rhino/droppod/thunderhawk he came in on. And if its not there its going to get dropped in. I reckon the marines would booby trap their ammo resupplies so that if an enemy tries to utilise it it explodes in their face!

You guys should listen to the guys who are in the military on this one, they would know best.

Also, wouldn't bolters only be able to hold about 10-15 rounds, considering the size of the bolts (or what I could infer from the size of the barrel) and the size of the magazine (sickle magazine, for those who are wondering)? thats very little ammo, even if they had 20 magazines on them.

GundamMerc wrote:You guys should listen to the guys who are in the military on this one, they would know best.

Also, wouldn't bolters only be able to hold about 10-15 rounds, considering the size of the bolts (or what I could infer from the size of the barrel) and the size of the magazine (sickle magazine, for those who are wondering)? thats very little ammo, even if they had 20 magazines on them.

As well as the different types of ammunition, there have also been several different types of magazines. The standard magazine is the sickle-mag.

* Sickle Magazine: The standard-issue magazine, seen on most bolter patterns. The magazine's shape is slightly curved to take up less space. Carries 20 to 30 bolts.

* Straight Magazine: A straight version of the sickle magazine. Holds less ammunition (only 10 to 20 bolts), but is easier to load in more intense situations.

* Drum Magazine: Drum magazines are a relatively rare sight in the 41st Millenium. This is due to their unreliability; drum magazines have an unfortunate tendency to jam. However, drums can carry 40, 60 or even 100 bolts, negating the need to reload as often. Despite the frequent jamming, they still brook some favor with local Hive Gangs or militia. They are also frequently seen on Storm Bolters or in brutal assaults, where running empty in a firefight can mean certain death.

40K 3rd BGB confirms these amounts. Bolts are also officially .75 Caliber.

* Sickle Magazine: The standard-issue magazine, seen on most bolter patterns. The magazine's shape is slightly curved to take up less space. Carries 20 to 30 bolts.

Wrong!
The curved shape of the magazine is not to increase the amount of cartridges.
It is curved to decrease the chance of the feed jamming up during fire.

The tip of the cartridge is thinner then the base (propellant) thus the rounds stacked in a magazine will naturally "bend" towards the points thus creating a natural curved line.
If the magazine does not follow that curvature the rounds risk being jammed during rapid feed.

See, you learn new stuff every day



As for the ammo issue, its simply a hopless flaw on GWs part, the marines, if they are supposed to do what they do, can not function using bolt rounds. They are simply left with to few rounds and the weight-to-fire ratio would be the worst in human existence.
It is also far from opssible to constantly re-equip the marines out on missions or in the field. Imagine if enemy ships control the orbit/sky or they are left or stranded on a prolonged mission or simply attacking/defending against overwhelming numbers?

Then we have the issue of logistics and materiel.
A modern day special forces soldier can easily shoot close to a thousand rounds just on his daily practice to stay sharp. I imagine marines being far superior to "normal" humans and also train way more so lets just say the average marine shoots a thousand rounds on his daily practice.
Time that by a thousand marines and you´ll end up with a million bolt rounds wasted per DAY.
And bolt rounds is described as being very rare and expensive things made with rare materials and tech.

So to imagine a standard chapter going through over 200 000Kg of bolt rounds PER DAY just for practice (not to mention all the heavier ordnance and heavy bolter ammo for all vehicles and heavy weapon practice shooting)
not to mention hos much ammo is run through while not in practice (being in combat)...
well its pretty much laughable to say the least!

GW, or some good author really ought to take a look at this and write something explanatory about it, hehe.

Platuan, i was talking of what they looked like they have the capacity for.

@Pyriel: I wonder if they have like an ancient virtual training thing that's never mentioned, or if they, being in some cases warriors before being indoctrinated, already have an almost natural ability to use the weapon. Plus, if the marines using bolters have been using them for hundreds of years, why practice.
I've always wondered, as a side note, how many rounds can one clip hold. It seems that it'd be lucky to fit 10, unless I'm overstating the round size. 20 sounds to much just because when you look at how big the size of the hole the bullets fly through, and then see the clip size, it just doesn't seem to add up.
Granted, one bolter shot can obliterate most enemies, still, how could it stand to horde armies.

Pyriel- wrote:

* Sickle Magazine: The standard-issue magazine, seen on most bolter patterns. The magazine's shape is slightly curved to take up less space. Carries 20 to 30 bolts.

Wrong!
The curved shape of the magazine is not to increase the amount of cartridges.
It is curved to decrease the chance of the feed jamming up during fire.

The tip of the cartridge is thinner then the base (propellant) thus the rounds stacked in a magazine will naturally "bend" towards the points thus creating a natural curved line.
If the magazine does not follow that curvature the rounds risk being jammed during rapid feed.

See, you learn new stuff every day

You do realize that what I posted is verbatim from GW fluff, right, and that that is the exact reason THEY give for it?

I also DO happen to know how real magazines work, thanks. Complain to GW if you have a problem with it.

Platuan4th wrote: Complain to GW if you have a problem with it.

and we know how that will turn out.

@garret: You'd have better luck just dividing by zero. They'd just go and drop all the xenos codexes to fix the error, then people cry.

SMs do not make sense if you take the fluff at face value.

There are two different ways they do make sense.

1. Propaganda
Assume the fluff is just propaganda and actually SMs are a fairly common, slightly special force not like the SAS but more like Paras.

2. Super Special Forces
Assume SMs are the equivalent of the SAS. They only fight in small unit actions such as recon and sabotage missions. All the fluff pictures of them fighting hordes of Orks or Nids are just propaganda.

@Pyriel: I wonder if they have like an ancient virtual training thing that's never mentioned, or if they, being in some cases warriors before being indoctrinated, already have an almost natural ability to use the weapon. Plus, if the marines using bolters have been using them for hundreds of years, why practice.
I've always wondered, as a side note, how many rounds can one clip hold. It seems that it'd be lucky to fit 10, unless I'm overstating the round size. 20 sounds to much just because when you look at how big the size of the hole the bullets fly through, and then see the clip size, it just doesn't seem to add up.
Granted, one bolter shot can obliterate most enemies, still, how could it stand to horde armies.

Well, anything sumulated has proven time and time again to be far from enough compared to actual practice.
The one instance in the fluff where a virtual reality training machine was being used by marines (forgot the chapter) was a catastrophe as such machnies ar prone to deamonic possession so GW scrapped that one.

Also, practice is needed, no matter how long your chapter has used bolters. I could tells you that pilots dont need to practice simply because the air force has been using planes for a long time or doctors dont need to practice since they have all been using scalpells for hundreds of years (or just untill graduation) but I bet you wouldnt want to be operated by such a doctor now would you

Dark heresy says 30 rounds can be held and even bore in box magazines and belt feeds.

Bolts vs hordes could be powerful actually.
If they have a proximity fuse setting they could go of metres from their target spraying an area in front of them with sharpnell maybe killing/wounding 4-5 targets in an oncoming horde rather then just one.
It still doesnt help vs things like nids and orks that have more numbers then you can shake a stick at and that dont care about wounds.

You do realize that what I posted is verbatim from GW fluff, right, and that that is the exact reason THEY give for it?

I also DO happen to know how real magazines work, thanks. Complain to GW if you have a problem with it.

Nope, obviously I didnt realize this or I wouldnt have written what I did, sorry to have stepped on your manhood implying you dont know your weapons.
Wasnt my intention.

1. Propaganda
Assume the fluff is just propaganda and actually SMs are a fairly common, slightly special force not like the SAS but more like Paras.

2. Super Special Forces
Assume SMs are the equivalent of the SAS. They only fight in small unit actions such as recon and sabotage missions. All the fluff pictures of them fighting hordes of Orks or Nids are just propaganda.

Hehe, they have stormtroopers for their SAS equivalent

Or we can assume the propaganda pictures certain things very un-accurately like the big rounds they use.
Look at pictures of our own medeval knights. When they storm castles they look bigger then the walls themselves. They ride horses smaller then they are and their swords are bigger then their horses AND they are all squeeky clean.
In reality they were mud caked and dirty with blood, crap and intestines, their sword would look realistic and the castle walls were REALLY big.

I imagine SM are the same, portraited as clean knights with BIG guns with intimidating barrels but as with the medeval knight pictures there would be nothing realistic about that.

With advanced tech (miniaturisation), both chemical (propellant) and metallurgical (round composition) there is no need to have such a big callibre. If the small sized assault cannon rounds can tear through armour and flesh better then a coke bottle sized bolt round why even use the big thing in the first place.
Having normal say 7.62 ammo in that futuristic high velocity, armour piercing and explosive versions would be more then enough. With the marine carrying capacity a squad of marines could lay down the fire worth of a small guard army and be able to do what they do in the fluff.
A single SM bolter magazien would easily be equal to a whole box full of SAW rounds and a rhino could carry around bucketloads of spares just in the underseat compartments.

Pyriel- wrote:

@Pyriel: I wonder if they have like an ancient virtual training thing that's never mentioned, or if they, being in some cases warriors before being indoctrinated, already have an almost natural ability to use the weapon. Plus, if the marines using bolters have been using them for hundreds of years, why practice.
I've always wondered, as a side note, how many rounds can one clip hold. It seems that it'd be lucky to fit 10, unless I'm overstating the round size. 20 sounds to much just because when you look at how big the size of the hole the bullets fly through, and then see the clip size, it just doesn't seem to add up.
Granted, one bolter shot can obliterate most enemies, still, how could it stand to horde armies.

Well, anything sumulated has proven time and time again to be far from enough compared to actual practice.
The one instance in the fluff where a virtual reality training machine was being used by marines (forgot the chapter) was a catastrophe as such machnies ar prone to deamonic possession so GW scrapped that one.

Also, practice is needed, no matter how long your chapter has used bolters. I could tells you that pilots dont need to practice simply because the air force has been using planes for a long time or doctors dont need to practice since they have all been using scalpells for hundreds of years (or just untill graduation) but I bet you wouldnt want to be operated by such a doctor now would you

When I was talking about practice, I meant for each specific brother. These guys participate in a lot of battles, are trained hardcore from their acceptance from the chapter, and also given that each one is possibly at least like 80 years old with 60 some odd years in training as scouts and even their experience fighting on their home planet, practicing outside of battle doesn't seem as necessary to happen often enough to warrant the rosk of wasting too much ammo.

When I was talking about practice, I meant for each specific brother. These guys participate in a lot of battles, are trained hardcore from their acceptance from the chapter, and also given that each one is possibly at least like 80 years old with 60 some odd years in training as scouts and even their experience fighting on their home planet, practicing outside of battle doesn't seem as necessary to happen often enough to warrant the rosk of wasting too much ammo.

You have no point.
Practicing isnt needed if you instead are in constant battle, so far so good but did you consider where their ammunition comes from that they use during all this constant combat? Do they spend 80 years in battle throwing rocks? Using guard pistols? borrowing rounds? Buying bolt rounds on the black market? Stealing them?

Well, I lied there, practice is still needed as it allows you to be good at more then one thing. If your missions are mostly on ice worlds then you wont be any good in other enviroments unless you practice them as well (if combat mission types cant be varied for some reason).

There is no escaping the fact that you either "waste" tons of ammunition on practice or you "waste" tons of ammunition during combat and that ammunition needs to come from some place and marines go through a crapload of it daily, they need to in order to either be damn good in doing what they do or in dispatching the enemies of the Emperor, they dont stand guarding doors, they are USED as much as possible paying themselves of for all the time and material invested in them.

I am going to throw my two cents in hear, the fluff states that bolter rounds are .75 caliber, when we picture a round in our head we picture it looking like a big 40mm grenade launcher round, but with micronization technology, the case that holds the bolter shell could be very small alowing the bolter shells to stack, the propellant could be miniscule and the bollter shell itself could weigh next to nothing, if made of superlight materials, but still retain tons of strength and explosive power, the bolter shell itself could be a full .75 caliber but be very small leangthwise allowing for many bolter shells to be housed in each regular curved clip(thus the thirty shells per clip instead of 10-15) and if they were made of super light material the clips could be stored anywere on the space marine with minimal discomfort or problematic weight issues. although i would ignore the official gw stuff and say that marines are packing miniaturized rounds by the thousands, and that bolter round rarity is an outright lie. rhinos could have thousands in cargo holds (usually found in the floors of futuistic fighting vehicles).well thats my two cents on the subject.

Are you sort of saying the ammo is kind of dehydrated and gets inflated to full size when it loads into the firing chamber?

It's an interesting idea.

It's a well known fact that Space Marines carry One in a Million bolters, so they never run out of ammo.

abadon09 wrote:I am going to throw my two cents in hear, the fluff states that bolter rounds are .75 caliber, when we picture a round in our head we picture it looking like a big 40mm grenade launcher round, but with micronization technology, the case that holds the bolter shell could be very small alowing the bolter shells to stack, the propellant could be miniscule and the bollter shell itself could weigh next to nothing, if made of superlight materials, but still retain tons of strength and explosive power, the bolter shell itself could be a full .75 caliber but be very small leangthwise allowing for many bolter shells to be housed in each regular curved clip(thus the thirty shells per clip instead of 10-15) and if they were made of super light material the clips could be stored anywere on the space marine with minimal discomfort or problematic weight issues. although i would ignore the official gw stuff and say that marines are packing miniaturized rounds by the thousands, and that bolter round rarity is an outright lie. rhinos could have thousands in cargo holds (usually found in the floors of futuistic fighting vehicles).well thats my two cents on the subject.

Interessting but not feasable since it defies the laws of physics.
Although you could explain it with "magic" as is quite common inthe 40k world debates.

Light rounds mean low kinetic energy on impact as well as a very rapid energy loss over range. This is why you see rounds that are ment to be used in dangerous spaces made out of light materials. They wont produce enough power to punch through whatever mustnt be damaged.

The entire concept of bigger callibre is not to look cooler but to simply delivermore kinetic energy at the target by increasing the weight of the round. You loose out on velocity but the overall effect is better. Take the 5.56 round, you increase the callibre only to 7.62 and by doing this little you more then double the energy on impact.

Light rounds just wont work other then at ridiculous speeds but that opens up a whole can of additional problems.

The lenght of the round also follow basic laws of physics and aerodynamics and cato short.
The propellant minutarisation is a decent idea though but it still doesnt lessen the rounds callibre although with a minimal and maybe solid propellant cartridge perhaps two rounds could fit in a row, one behind the other and the overal cartridge would only be as high as the bolt shell and not as the often wider cartridge. Perhaps if this was utilized up to 90 rounds could fit in a standard magazine.
It goes against all GW fluff but then I rather prefer logical thinking then GW mistakes.

Cool idea man, smart thinking

Wait a minute...is everyone forgetting the fact that bolters only fire two shots at best?If a game lasts 6 turns they are only using 12 bolt rounds(assuming of course that they are in two shot range). So one clip of 20 bullets is good enough.

Heh, and they walk at most 36 inches during a battle too. Must be damn slow but that is probably due to the ammo weighing them down>P

Kilkrazy wrote:SMs do not make sense if you take the fluff at face value.

There are two different ways they do make sense.

1. Propaganda
Assume the fluff is just propaganda and actually SMs are a fairly common, slightly special force not like the SAS but more like Paras.

2. Super Special Forces
Assume SMs are the equivalent of the SAS. They only fight in small unit actions such as recon and sabotage missions. All the fluff pictures of them fighting hordes of Orks or Nids are just propaganda.

Neither of these make sense. You might as well just say "I will take anything I want in 40k and say it is propaganda, and replace it with whatever the hell I want". You can't ignore such a huge % of codexes, stories, and books. If SM as they are depicted are propaganda, then why do we have 1st person books detailing space marines, stories that the public would never know and therefore can't be propaganda.

Space marines can't logically be dismissed as propaganda.

those things are called air wents, derrr.

I guess Space Marines are like videogame characters - they just store their tonnes of equipment in the huge Storage Area in their arses

ph34r wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:SMs do not make sense if you take the fluff at face value.

There are two different ways they do make sense.

1. Propaganda
Assume the fluff is just propaganda and actually SMs are a fairly common, slightly special force not like the SAS but more like Paras.

2. Super Special Forces
Assume SMs are the equivalent of the SAS. They only fight in small unit actions such as recon and sabotage missions. All the fluff pictures of them fighting hordes of Orks or Nids are just propaganda.

Neither of these make sense. You might as well just say "I will take anything I want in 40k and say it is propaganda, and replace it with whatever the hell I want". You can't ignore such a huge % of codexes, stories, and books. If SM as they are depicted are propaganda, then why do we have 1st person books detailing space marines, stories that the public would never know and therefore can't be propaganda.

Space marines can't logically be dismissed as propaganda.

Course they can. It's all made up stories and that is exactly what propaganda is.

Kilkrazy wrote:

ph34r wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:SMs do not make sense if you take the fluff at face value.

There are two different ways they do make sense.

1. Propaganda
Assume the fluff is just propaganda and actually SMs are a fairly common, slightly special force not like the SAS but more like Paras.

2. Super Special Forces
Assume SMs are the equivalent of the SAS. They only fight in small unit actions such as recon and sabotage missions. All the fluff pictures of them fighting hordes of Orks or Nids are just propaganda.

Neither of these make sense. You might as well just say "I will take anything I want in 40k and say it is propaganda, and replace it with whatever the hell I want". You can't ignore such a huge % of codexes, stories, and books. If SM as they are depicted are propaganda, then why do we have 1st person books detailing space marines, stories that the public would never know and therefore can't be propaganda.

Space marines can't logically be dismissed as propaganda.

Course they can. It's all made up stories and that is exactly what propaganda is.

No, it's not. The story "space wolf" or "eisenhorn" would NEVER be told to anyone that would be targeted by propaganda. They contain WAY too much sensitive/heretical/dangerous information. Yet they exist, and portray space marines as they are, because they are for the readers eyes only.

Since we are talking about ammo, where does the grenades and melta bombs go? Really because I also see zero pocket, pouches, little bags or equivalents on their amour.

Again, storage room in the arsehole

metallifan wrote:Again, storage room in the arsehole

So if they launch them from....oh my.

metallifan wrote:Again, storage room in the arsehole

Wow... Consider this sigged sir!

Excellent. We must do all we can to spread the word of the 'Video-Game Infinite Ammo Ass Compartment' (V-GIAAC). The world's militaries would pay GOLD for this sort of stuff!

Hmmm... well if we say that inside their gun is a clip.. and then they have that extra clip, that would be 2 clips.

And then another in that pouch of theirs.

And a few more inside the back pack. As the armor is linked to their mental processes perhaps the backpack launches out a clip on command and the space marine catches it and quickly loads it.

ph34r wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

ph34r wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:SMs do not make sense if you take the fluff at face value.

There are two different ways they do make sense.

1. Propaganda
Assume the fluff is just propaganda and actually SMs are a fairly common, slightly special force not like the SAS but more like Paras.

2. Super Special Forces
Assume SMs are the equivalent of the SAS. They only fight in small unit actions such as recon and sabotage missions. All the fluff pictures of them fighting hordes of Orks or Nids are just propaganda.

Neither of these make sense. You might as well just say "I will take anything I want in 40k and say it is propaganda, and replace it with whatever the hell I want". You can't ignore such a huge % of codexes, stories, and books. If SM as they are depicted are propaganda, then why do we have 1st person books detailing space marines, stories that the public would never know and therefore can't be propaganda.

Space marines can't logically be dismissed as propaganda.

Course they can. It's all made up stories and that is exactly what propaganda is.

No, it's not. The story "space wolf" or "eisenhorn" would NEVER be told to anyone that would be targeted by propaganda. They contain WAY too much sensitive/heretical/dangerous information. Yet they exist, and portray space marines as they are, because they are for the readers eyes only.

That is the cunning of it.

They write the story as it couldn't be a piece of propaganda, and distribute it under cover to give it an extra layer of versimilitude.

Ah, it all becomes clear. The people living in the real 40k universe know that there is no such thing as space marines. GW simply has woven an extremely elaborate ruse to convince us earth humans that space marines exist in the 40k universe when they do in fact not exist.

BUT if you are still serious, then it is amazing how the thoughts of the characters are made known to the citizens of the Imperium as well. I doubt they write in a diary. Maybe the inquisitors that have seen space marines are made up too. Maybe the inquisition is made up. Maybe black ships come and take people away and just dump them into suns. Maybe there is no emperor. Maybe we are all in the matrix.

Hmm... perhaps they have extra large arse comparments?? A agree with the posts above this one about this?

ph34r wrote:Ah, it all becomes clear. The people living in the real 40k universe know that there is no such thing as space marines. GW simply has woven an extremely elaborate ruse to convince us earth humans that space marines exist in the 40k universe when they do in fact not exist.

BUT if you are still serious, then it is amazing how the thoughts of the characters are made known to the citizens of the Imperium as well. I doubt they write in a diary. Maybe the inquisitors that have seen space marines are made up too. Maybe the inquisition is made up. Maybe black ships come and take people away and just dump them into suns. Maybe there is no emperor. Maybe we are all in the matrix.

If it is true that there are under 1 million space marines the vast majority of the population have probably never seen one except in movies, or maybe distantly at a parade on a rare state occasion.

It is actors' job to be in movies and convince the audience about the thoughts they are supposedly thinking.

It is authors' job to write novels and convince the reader about the situations and thoughts of the characters in them.

If there are lots of space marines so lots of ordinary people have met them and spoken to them in person, it rather disproves that they are incredibly rare super soldiers.

Given their frequent appearances on the battlefield, and not particularly spectacular performance, it seems unlikely they are really as rare and special as Imperial fluff would like us to believe.

you know, I always considered the rate of fire in 40k to be more a measure of effective fire. i.e. I don't think autocannons are only firing two rounds per turn (perhaps faster, more erratic or fewer, more careful shots), just as pistols aren't firing a single round on the charge.

consider that the bolter's rapid fire is based on it's explosive power, that the bolt is it's own propellant, that one wound at 24 inches comes from the loss of explosive force compared to two wounds at 12 inches from the retained fuel. considering a bolter is basically a semi-automatic grenade launcher anyway, I doubt that many would be able to justify firing it in automatic. how much ammunition they carry is also arbitrary, as we don't have a firm understanding of what bolts are made of (they could be highly compressed atmospheric elements with some sort of catalyst making them near weightless to carry), and we don't know exactly how strong power armor can make you (oh yeah, 25% stronger at 3:4 for guardsmen.... which is about half the strength of a hive tyrant?).

I actually very much favor the premise of the marine's armor being able to somehow produce it's own ammunition, even if it takes a period of time to replenish as it gives some credence to the longer battles they supposedly participate in. Doubly so as I don't think khorne's legions are very concerned with maintaining supply lines.

I -HIGHLY- doubt that the armour produces it's own ammo. The backpack is a power unit, so chances of storage there are pretty nil being that it's full of cooling vents and mechanical doodads. I'm going to have to say that it's either an ammo storage in the Drop Pod, and they can replenish from those during/after the initial combat until the T-Hawks come down and set up an ammo depot.

That or the "Infinite ammo because I said so" theory.

Anyway, game mechanics can't really be used to discern 'real time' situations. Of course autocannons aren't firing 2 rounds per turn. Because nothing happens in 'turns'. In reality, the cannon would keep firing. But you're not going to sit there and constantly roll dice while your opponent tries to keep up with saves. Unless you wanted to be a jerk

Kilkrazy wrote:

ph34r wrote:Ah, it all becomes clear. The people living in the real 40k universe know that there is no such thing as space marines. GW simply has woven an extremely elaborate ruse to convince us earth humans that space marines exist in the 40k universe when they do in fact not exist.

BUT if you are still serious, then it is amazing how the thoughts of the characters are made known to the citizens of the Imperium as well. I doubt they write in a diary. Maybe the inquisitors that have seen space marines are made up too. Maybe the inquisition is made up. Maybe black ships come and take people away and just dump them into suns. Maybe there is no emperor. Maybe we are all in the matrix.

If it is true that there are under 1 million space marines the vast majority of the population have probably never seen one except in movies, or maybe distantly at a parade on a rare state occasion.

It is actors' job to be in movies and convince the audience about the thoughts they are supposedly thinking.

It is authors' job to write novels and convince the reader about the situations and thoughts of the characters in them.

If there are lots of space marines so lots of ordinary people have met them and spoken to them in person, it rather disproves that they are incredibly rare super soldiers.

Given their frequent appearances on the battlefield, and not particularly spectacular performance, it seems unlikely they are really as rare and special as Imperial fluff would like us to believe.

I have never seen it implied that space marines are promoted to the general population of 40k. Rather everyone always seems amazed when they see one.

Are you really saying that 40k books about space marines are written, in 40k, by the government, to leak to the general population to convince them that space marines are awesome? That the books that black library writes are actually clever lies, not intended to be taken seriously? And the same for every single mention of space marines ever. That just makes no sense at all.

There are not "lots" of space marines so that ordinary people meet them all the time.

They do not perform super special awesome on the tabletop. They do in the fluff. A chapter of 1000 marines destroyed a necron world engine, and other such ridiculous stories. With the amount of assumptions of extended complex lies by GW you make, you could say that anything at all in 40k does not exist. And that is just silly. The same reasoning could be used to *anything* *anything*.

If it is true that there are under 1 million space marines the vast majority of the population have probably never seen one except in movies, or maybe distantly at a parade on a rare state occasion.

It is actors' job to be in movies and convince the audience about the thoughts they are supposedly thinking.

It is authors' job to write novels and convince the reader about the situations and thoughts of the characters in them.

If there are lots of space marines so lots of ordinary people have met them and spoken to them in person, it rather disproves that they are incredibly rare super soldiers.

Given their frequent appearances on the battlefield, and not particularly spectacular performance, it seems unlikely they are really as rare and special as Imperial fluff would like us to believe.

Conspiracy thinking by all means but you happen to take it to tin-foil levels.
Add soem logic to the conspiracies and it will all make more sense.

I can easily take your level of counter conspiracy thinking and use it to claim that the wold is FLAT!
We see lies on television and all the school books are pure propaganda and so few people have actually been there that that is no proof, besides they are all actors so the government, I mean the inquisition (illuminati) just tell them and the CGI guys what to say and show so we, the masses keep thinking the world is round, space travel is possible and in general get a feeling of hope for the future so that further taxation doesnt make us violent.

The world is flat and it is for our own best in keeping us doctile and there is nothing you can say to make me change my mind since I´ll just reply that you only see "actors" on televosion and there is no proof since the people that truly understand celestian physics and math are to few and to well paid to lie.

See, its not as fun anymore when it goes to tin-foil heaven levels

I -HIGHLY- doubt that the armour produces it's own ammo. The backpack is a power unit, so chances of storage there are pretty nil being that it's full of cooling vents and mechanical doodads. I'm going to have to say that it's either an ammo storage in the Drop Pod, and they can replenish from those during/after the initial combat until the T-Hawks come down and set up an ammo depot.

Claiming that is as lame as using "magic" to justify something that is not supported by ANY fluff what so ever or even worse, using "magic" to completely disregard the laws of physics like bullets weight nothing and take no space, tehy are simply made out of freaking bosons that turn into fermions in the magical weapons magazine.

No wonder there still exist people today that seriously think the world is flat (which it by the way IS, all you see on tv are lies *mwahaha*)

Pyriel- wrote:Claiming that is as lame as using "magic" to justify something that is not supported by ANY fluff what so ever or even worse, using "magic" to completely disregard the laws of physics like bullets weight nothing and take no space, tehy are simply made out of freaking bosons that turn into fermions in the magical weapons magazine.

No wonder there still exist people today that seriously think the world is flat (which it by the way IS, all you see on tv are lies *mwahaha*)

Well, if it's so lame then by all means, show us the fluff that states where they would store additional ammo during an invasion. Seeing how you act like you have the true answer.

I'd like to know how having a compartment in each pod for a few extra mags, in addition to those the Marine is carrying on him when he makes planetfall (Because going into battle without them would make you dumber than the Sergeant from the first DoW intro), is "Lame". I never claimed that it was Fluff, so there's no need to get all butthurt just because you don't think it's plausible. Personally, I think Marines would be stupid not to have some sort of ammo compartment for a handful of extra mags. If you disagree, fine. It's not breaking physics, and it's not like I'm saying that Drop Pods just have bottomless ammo storage. But thanks for looking like a dill-hole on a speculative topic.

Besides, I never said they wouldn't still run out, only that they would be smart to have storage for a couple refills once they've expended their carry-on.

They would store ammo in their transports, or in support drop pods, or in stock piles. I'm pretty sure SM power armor has no room for compartments, but a practical space marine would have several magazines strapped to their legs and belt area.

ph34r wrote:They would store ammo in their transports, or in support drop pods, or in stock piles. I'm pretty sure SM power armor has no room for compartments, but a practical space marine would have several magazines strapped to their legs and belt area.

Exactly. They don't have enough ammo -on them- to fight a campaign. But their Drop Pods would likely carry a small stockpile, as well as T-Hawks deploying ammo points and additional Supply pods deploying to serve as resupply stations. I think it's perfectly logical. Not as comical as the ass-storage, but certainly more fluff-friendly (not to mention - less painful )

Oh my god!!1!

Bolters, the Brown Bess in SPAAAACE!

Of course, now I wonder if they'll release fluff that CSM bolters are .69 both as a terrible pun and riffing the .69 Charleville?

Philip Sibbering makes a good point on marine's ammo.

Well, if it's so lame then by all means, show us the fluff that states where they would store additional ammo during an invasion. Seeing how you act like you have the true answer.

Its called common sense and the laws of physics. I´m not hiding behind lame things like "magic" or bullets that are lighter then air to excuse some far fetched tech solutuion that is not even covered by the fluff.
No, the burden of proof is not on me, its on the guy who want to make it out into the bolt rounds "magically" taking up no space and "magically" weighting nothing.

I'd like to know how having a compartment in each pod for a few extra mags, in addition to those the Marine is carrying on him when he makes planetfall (Because going into battle without them would make you dumber than the Sergeant from the first DoW intro), is "Lame". I never claimed that it was Fluff, so there's no need to get all butthurt just because you don't think it's plausible.

Oh that is very plausible. Additional ammo in the compartment spaces of a rhino or a pod is just sensible but:
A: its not enough (orks would pretty much laugh at your ten spare clips in the rhino) and
B: Far from every scenario gives the marines access to rhinos or pods stashed with extra ammunition.

Please explain to me how shrike and his buddies managed to kill hordes of orks during their 2 years isolated behind enemy lines!
Because doing all that damage by using hand and fist just isnt "plausible".

Personally, I think Marines would be stupid not to have some sort of ammo compartment for a handful of extra mags. If you disagree, fine. It's not breaking physics, and it's not like I'm saying that Drop Pods just have bottomless ammo storage. But thanks for looking like a dill-hole on a speculative topic.

If you think that believing "magical" escapes from a common sense problem is being an a-hole then that is your opinion.
Personally I´d like to think I know how to look at a problem in a logical sense and try to explain it without bending common sense and throwing in lame "magical solution" just to excuse my personal beliefs about things that simply must be made out according to my will.

If it doesnt work, change the theory, its just that simple.
Dont be stoopid and alter reality to make it suit you.

And about the extra ammo compartments on marines, I never said that wes stupid, on the contrary in fact. I believe they carry on them about 10 extra magazines but even then it will not last long and the second point is that it goes aginst the very synergy of a space marine. If you re-read my posts I´m sure you´ll see why and what I mean.

Besides, I never said they wouldn't still run out, only that they would be smart to have storage for a couple refills once they've expended their carry-on.

Yes they would always TRY to achieve that but as with current day special forces tehy CANNOT rely on resupplies. They have to plan on carrying everything they will ever need in to battle and any resupply is only a positive extra bonus should it get through.
What if they cant get resupplied? It has nothing to do with being smart or with logics.
Clearing an ork space hulk, being left behind enemy lines, holding isolated against oncoming nids etc etc, what will tehy do then with their handful of extra spares?

Ergo: The whole theory of what a bolter uses as ammunition is flawed and before you go all mature and start screaming words like a-hole again this is not the first time GW has made a gigantic logical miss. My point is make the tech theory adapt to what canon fluff tells us marines regularily do on their missions.

If it bothers you so much, then Green Stuff some chest rigs or vests for your Marines.

The mag pouches that come with the Tac squad are way off. They're not nearly thick enough.


As for number, given the size of a bolter mag, and the width of a Marine chest, you could base it off of one of the Chi-com AK chest rigs with the 3 mag pouches in the front.

Pardon my ignorance, but is it not unwise to put magazines of live ammo on your chest? Would that help protect you from a hit to the chest, or would it explode if it got hit and shrapnelize you with your own ammo?

My marines are happy with only needing one mag, they only get two shooting phases before combat. The dice tell me that thats only 4 bolts per marine max!

bullets don't explode. Quite a few soldiers have ben saved in no small part due to their magazines and rounds taking the hits.

If it does explode, it's because whatever hit them was explosive.

s.j.mccartney wrote:Pardon my ignorance, but is it not unwise to put magazines of live ammo on your chest? Would that help protect you from a hit to the chest, or would it explode if it got hit and shrapnelize you with your own ammo?

My marines are happy with only needing one mag, they only get two shooting phases before combat. The dice tell me that thats only 4 bolts per marine max!

Magazines don't explode, but they also won't stop bullets.

They did a test on www.theboxotruth.com. Even steel AK mags with very thick walls, fully loaded, wouldn't stop rifle rounds. Pistol rounds maybe...


It's just a convenient place to put your ammunition so you can still be agile enough to run and crawl. If it's on your hips, it's much less comfortable and slower to reload.

Can save you from sharpnel and sharpnel is what causes most deaths on a battle field (not bullets as commonly mistaken).

There are also examples of knife blades saving peoples lives as bullets struck them.

It does not need to stop the bullet, per se, only limit the kinetic energy enough that it does little damage when it goes in. Thus, a knife blade saving a persons life. Take away the bullets source of power, its speed, and it does nothing. You cannot hurt someone by merely throwing a bullet at them (unless you are a major league pitcher, if you are, congrats you killing machine you) unless you hit them in eyes or drop it off the top of a multistory building, and dropping it off a building may result in at most a concussion (if that is even possible, with how light bullets are, more likely it will just feel like you hit your head on the corner of a table). You need much more speed to actually maim or kill someone.

Yeah, I think the guy with the knife blade ended up getting half the blade crammed an inch or two inside his body but that is survivable and preferred to having a bullet pass your body.

The object can also partially deflect the bullet instead of outright stopping it. Again, lowering the kinetic energy and getting it to strike somewhere less lethal.

... Minor detail, but aren't bolts supposed to be armor piercing mini grenades? Like super powered dum dum rounds or something? (Never mind that a .75 will kill you without piercing you anyway, the kinetic impact being enough to rupture internal organs through armor.)

The reason that modern militaries don't use a .75 is that with modern propellants behind it, a .75 rifle round is too much gun to handle (broken shoulders, etc).

It's up there with a 9 gauge shotgun. Yes, they exist, but most sane people don't use one, and even the ones that do have a LOT of shock absorbing.

Note the words sane and average are used. Ironically, my 100 caliber weapon has a smaller bore then the barrel of a bolt gun. Which says what we all knew, GW has no concept of scale.

Also, mind you, I've never fired said weapon without bolting it to it's mounting. Which is attached to a ship.

I did a mock up of a marine last night with two clips of ammo on his chestpiece, it isn't a good look. I'll post pics tonight.

They look much better hanging from his belt.

or inside his pauldrons.

here's my white-tacked marine displaying how big the bolter mags are when strapped to his chest.

GundamMerc wrote:It does not need to stop the bullet, per se, only limit the kinetic energy enough that it does little damage when it goes in. Thus, a knife blade saving a persons life. Take away the bullets source of power, its speed, and it does nothing. You cannot hurt someone by merely throwing a bullet at them (unless you are a major league pitcher, if you are, congrats you killing machine you) unless you hit them in eyes or drop it off the top of a multistory building, and dropping it off a building may result in at most a concussion (if that is even possible, with how light bullets are, more likely it will just feel like you hit your head on the corner of a table). You need much more speed to actually maim or kill someone.

A couple of magazines aren't going to save your bacon from any rifle round, unless we're talking extreme range here. Even at the upward limit of usable range, tiny little 5.56 will go through magazines like a hot knife through butter, and do a number on whoever is on the other side. There's not enough distance to cause a meaningful change in bullet orientation that would significantly degrade penetration and thin metal mags don't slow it down enough.

Plus you run into issues of spalling. As the round passes through the magazine, it creates lots of itty bitty secondary projectiles that can really mess up your day.

And would you have any experience in the field with this?

Also, I think you are thinking of perpendicular head on shots. This may not be the case. If the round comes in at an angle, however slight, it has to go through significantly more magazine to get through, and has a greater chance of being deflected any amount as the angle increases. So test range firings will find some information, but to get a full look at the subject, you would need to fire at it from an angle.

The eff?

What is this argument about now? I thought the situation was resolved when we discovered that the there was a small gap between the power plant of the power armour and the power armour itself for 8 mags? It was also brought up that there was in fact an outside force, the humans that tend to work for the Space Marines I believe, that manage a comm net of some sort that directs Brothers to a spare mag when they're out. In this way they supposedly have enough ammo for a stand operation. (Keeping in mind that they're standard operation time is not incredibly long)

As for ammo depots ._. Drop pods sound plausible, but with the fluff tactics of the Marines would they hang around long enough to make use of the extra mags? Rhinos and drop poinds for ammo sound more plausible...

My 2 cents...and I'm sure someone will have a witty rebuttal.

My marines would need that Rhino full of ammo...

Praise the Emperor, and pass the heavy bolter...

GundamMerc wrote:And would you have any experience in the field with this?

Also, I think you are thinking of perpendicular head on shots. This may not be the case. If the round comes in at an angle, however slight, it has to go through significantly more magazine to get through, and has a greater chance of being deflected any amount as the angle increases. So test range firings will find some information, but to get a full look at the subject, you would need to fire at it from an angle.

In addition to be a 40k nerd, I also served in the 50th bn Nahal Brigade of the IDF.

I'm sure you've seen that chest rigs are pretty chic amongst every modern fighter, and Hamas was no different. But they found out the hard way during Operation Cast Lead that magazines aren't bulletproof.

Ammo goes into thy enemy

They don't need lots of ammo. They shoot some, and then beat the crap out of the enemy with their bare fists.

Or they just keep them clips in their belt pockets.