The 40k would win the 40k as truck and star trek as a dog in front of the truck.Borg is nothing when you look at nids,crons,Imperium of Man and da Orks.Star Trek ethics suck.Don't bring those 8742 or Borg supermen myths becuase 40k would easly crush them the Imperium can also easyly destroy planet by phase 2 cylonic torpedo with melta charge.Q is nothing when comperaed to Emperor or Chaos Gods(heresy).

Gork and Mork are going to destroy the Q continuum.

And by "destroy", of course, I mean "party with all day".

Better comparison, 40k vs. the worst of every other sci-fi setting combined.

Kind of a lame comparison (no offense). Why would you feel the need to compare a utopia vision of the future to a dystopia/apocalyptic (I haven't picked one yet for 40k it seems to have many traits of both) one? Besides, Star Trek is a TV series with a naturally limited scope, and only really takes place in a fraction of galaxy with a tidbit here and there from other parts. Of course a galaxy spanning human empire would win XD.

Better vs: Jedi's vs Space Marines. That would be a awesome fight *nerd sense explode*

Why not throw 40k versus pretty much any anime crap ever devised. It'd be a sad day to be a 40k fan...

Unless it's Tau vs. an Mecha Anime in which they just pat each other on the back and exchange mobile suit parts...
Though Slaansh has no problems with the hentai and ... beyond...

Imagine borg resistance is futile against a space marine battlebarge since trekkie weapons are weak phaser is flashlight when you compare to to other 40k weapons such as plasma guns and star trek plasma weapons are weak imagine this a marine fires plasma gun and the plasma cuts through sveral bulkhead on trek ship.Apocalypse class nova cannon woulds mop that 2800 Dominion fleet with ease.Do you know what is the power of the most arhaic torpedo in 40k 600 gigatons or marine tearing 10 borg drones with his bare hands with ease.Heavy bolter cutting mopping borg drones.Awesome.


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Their ethics suck loss of 1 man acceptable.Xeno lovers heresy!
Capitain Picrad doing facepalm as space marine raises him over his head.

Who Would Win?

40k

Why?

It takes Starfleet 9001 years to cross the Galaxy (Voyager).

It takes the Imperial Navy a few months to a few years.

40k= win

Trekkies suck, star wars is better, both in general and for a comparison.

RustyKnight wrote:Why not throw 40k versus pretty much any anime crap ever devised. It'd be a sad day to be a 40k fan...

Tau.

I think the greatest weapon in the 40K arsenal is ruthlessness. Also, surprise and a fanatical dedication to the pope...emperor.

Kirk doesnt give a d@mn.

Throw anything in the universe up against him...but say goodbye to it first.

I laughed so hard at picard dignity demotivational poster.

IvanTih wrote:The 40k would win the 40k as truck and star trek as a dog in front of the truck.Borg is nothing when you look at nids,crons,Imperium of Man and da orks.Star Trek ethics suck.Don't bring those 8742 or Borg supermen myths becuase 40k would easly crush them the Imperium can also easly destroy planet by phase 2 cylonic torpedo with melta charge.Q is nothing when comperaed to Emperor or Chaos Gods(heresy).

This post is nigh incomprehensible.

And why you are dakkaite you should be at 40k side.I hate those ethics in star trek.

Oh gak, no one ever told me that 40K was a lifestyle choice! What would I have ever done if you hadn't come along?

IvanTih wrote:Imagine borg resistance is futile against a space marine battlebarge since trekkie weapons are weak phaser is flashlight when you compare to to other 40k weapons such as plasma guns and star trek plasma weapons are weak imagine this a marine fires plasma gun and the plasma cuts through sveral bulkhead on trek ship.Apocalypse class nova cannon woulds mop that 2800 Dominion fleet with ease.Do you know what is the power of the most arhaic torpedo in 40k 600 gigatons or marine tearing 10 borg drones with his bare hands with ease.Heavy bolter cutting mopping borg drones.Awesome.


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Their ethics suck loss of 1 man acceptable.Xeno lovers heresy!
Capitain Picrad doing facepalm as space marine raises him over his head.

I think I counted 7 periods and 1 exclamation point in this post. There are at least twice that many sentences.

My head is now sufficiently hurt, and I think my IQ dropped a couple of points.

Star Trek's actually pretty low on the power scale as far as scifi is concerned. It's only meant to be a few hundred years in the future, nations each take up a small fraction of a poorly explored and thinly settled galaxy, and ships are for the most part small and spread thin. That's basically the premise of the show. Stacking them up against the grim darkness of the 41st millennium where there is only war is a clear mismatch.

Did you all for get about the klingons and Romulians, there weapons are not Phasers,(phasers are partial weapons) there disrupters, which means they tear you from the inside out. So you get shot in ur pinkie toe your going too bleed out.( they have a anti clogging agent in the engeryfield)
Then Borg tech , well first time the space marines fires there bolter, there self defence shields will adapted and over come, then what would be worst a space marine drone..... better yet Tyraind drones....

Then there speies 4792 ( what ever there called) from fluidic space, Just dont compare the good guys.
Yeah there ships may be slower but they do have cloaking devices and phaseshifting cloaks


http://www.merzo.net/index.html

here a link to size comparison of different ships from all movies including 40k ships too

But im not a trekkie or trekker or a fan boy, i just enjoy all scifi shows and there history.
IMO the star trek Univervise is more dangerous, I mean IN 40k there only war, no politics history of betrail by other races....

StarGate wrote:
Yeah there ships may be slower but they do have cloaking devices and phaseshifting cloaks

Trek Ships are actually more dangerous than their 40k counterparts.

If you're talking cross-galactic speeds, your talking hyperspace, warp jumps and such...this is fine.

However, 40k space battles take place at sub-light speeds, not so with ships from trek.

A phaser isnt weak. Phased-Laser is the correct term. A Phaser is usable at Faster-Than-Light speeds where as lasers are not. Trek ships could use Warp speed maneuvering to fly circles around the slow ponderous 40k ships and take their time picking them apart.

The Enterprise doesnt have much to fear from a cruiser who's primary armament are torpedo's and other solid projectiles (nova cannons included) that move slower than light.

Even the original series Enterprise has been boasted by Kirk to be able to lay waste to an entire planet. I dont see any rules (other than the planet killer) for attacking actual planetary populations.

If you're really well versed in both Trek AND 40k, you cannot possibly think that 40k navies would do ANYTHING but be completely scuttled when pitted against the Star Fleet.

I say this as both a hardcore fanatic of Star Trek AND a hardcore player of Gothic.

Trek ships are more powerful combatants.

Another add on... what about the Tv series Battle of the planets... the Agro...... that ship was slow but it took a lot of punishment, Wave motion cannon, Shockcannons, hyperspeed torpedos, and a fighter squadron of black tigers attack craft.....

I mean we can go on and on ... its like comparing apples too oranges there both fuirt but different types.

40k is 40 thousands years in the furture and star trek is only a few hundred years in the furture... just remember that... lol

you can go faster than light all you want, it won't matter when a psyker boils your captains head, and terminators teleport onboard to blow up your warp drive.

Sorry but I can't resist:

StarGate wrote:Did all of you for get about the Klingons and Romulans, their weapons are not Phasers (phasers are particle weapons) they're disrupters, which means they break the bonds between the atoms of whatever they hit (Yeah you were way off XD).

As for the rest there's not much to do to actually fix it. Space Marines would not have their weapons rendered useless against the Borg, quite the opposite. The Borg don't have shields strong enough to really stop anything, they're designed to adapt to energy frequencies and render things like phasers and disruptors harmless. Several episodes of the various Star Trek series' actual suggest the Borg might be abnormally vulnerable to solid projectiles on an individual basis.

I doubt the Borg could pose a real threat to the Imperium of Man, contrary to how the show may present them, they are actually not that many in number when compared to the Galaxy as a whole. The Imperium could beat them like they beat everything else, force of numbers in nothing else. The Borg would be unlikely to assimilate the Tyranids. As a race that has no "technology" or "sentience" per se, I doubt the Borg would have a real interest. More so, the Borg are again, few in number. The Nids could overwhelm them even more easily than the Imperium and the Nids are the Species 8472 of 40k. We've already seen how that turned out.

And why are we bringing "Species 8472" into this? They're a peaceful race in another dimension. They're not gonna go picking fights and the races of 40k don't seem to interested in crossing into other levels of space when they got plenty to kill in their own.

Like I said before: Star Trek vs 40k really is not a very interesting comparison. The Borg are probably one of the larger civilizations in Star Trek and they're easily dwarfed by the 40k Orks or Humanity. Plus the technology present in 40k is vastly superior to that presented in Star Trek, so I doubt the Borg would stand much of a chance. Star Wars is a much more interesting comparison I agree. There are actually some fights I'd love to see: Imperial Fleet vs Imperial Fleet, Jedi vs Space Marine, Guardsmen vs Clonetroopers etc.

Horst wrote:you can go faster than light all you want, it won't matter when a psyker boils your captains head, and terminators teleport onboard to blow up your warp drive.

If you know anything about starship combat (games at least) you know that speed is everything.

Cannot teleport (the equivalant of beaming) onboard a ship when sheilds are up.

Psykers have no role in Starship combat. 40k Psykers are apparently not powerful enough to be a factor in a starship engagement, otherwise there would be rules for such in gothic.

The statement that the Enterprise could destroy an entire planet was retconned ages ago. The official standing now is that you would need a whole fleet os ships to destroy a world in Star Trek by conventional means. Also, the speed of ships in Star Trek though faster than their 40k equivalents, isn't really fast enough to pull a Neo. More so, the Imperium still has numbers on its side and Star Fleet has no "Warships."

I would also argue a Terminator might be able to teleport regardless of shields. Their teleportation is different from Star Treks in that they pass through the warp and are not dematerialized and rebuilt on the other end. Other things have gotten past Star Trek shields in a similar manner.

Then there comes the basic fact: Most races in Star Trek suck at war. Star Fleet has never shown a sign of an infantry force let alone artillery, tanks, or close support aircraft, and the infantry forces seen in the series are grossly inferior to those shown in 40k. Space is only half the battle.

LordofHats wrote:
Like I said before: Star Trek vs 40k really is not a very interesting comparison. The Borg are probably one of the larger civilizations in Star Trek and they're easily dwarfed by the 40k Orks or Humanity. Plus the technology present in 40k is vastly superior to that presented in Star Trek, so I doubt the Borg would stand much of a chance.

I call foul here.

Tech in 40k is IN NO WAY MORE ADVANCED than in Trek.

Trek=Beam and Energy weapons are primary weapons systems.

40k= mostly projectile weapons, slow, unwieildy and again, never having a chance of hitting the Enterprise if on alert.

Lets not forget that in the 40k universe, MUCH tech has been lost over the course of time. You cannot tell me that a ship which uses the manpower of thousands of slaves in order to load a single sub-light nova cannon shell is more advanced than a ship armed with beam weapons that uses Tractor-beam Technology in order to alter the coarse of an asteroid the size of a small moon.

Trek Ships are more advanced. Probably due to the losses of technology that has plagued the Imperium for the last several thousand years.

In fact, the Imperium is essentially moving BACKWARDS technologically if you think about it....while the Star Fleet is all about learning, research and study.

FOR THE EMPEROwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaitaminute.

Terminators teleporting onboard....great, just what the security force could handle easily.

Terminators, encumbered with heavy armour against lighter and faster opponents that are able to take cover against the solid projectiles.

Terminator fills hall....then is vaporised by a phaser set on maximum. Phasers have no problem with this sort of work.

Numerical advantage manpowerwise doesnt mean much. A single phaser can be used to slaughter hundreds of men easily. (see: The Omega Glory)

With a phaser in hand, your numbers account for nothing.

LordofHats wrote:Like I said before: Star Trek vs 40k really is not a very interesting comparison. The Borg are probably one of the larger civilizations in Star Trek and they're easily dwarfed by the 40k Orks or Humanity. Plus the technology present in 40k is vastly superior to that presented in Star Trek, so I doubt the Borg would stand much of a chance. Star Wars is a much more interesting comparison I agree. There are actually some fights I'd love to see: Imperial Fleet vs Imperial Fleet, Jedi vs Space Marine, Guardsmen vs Clonetroopers etc.

We already had a thread for that. The final score seemed to be:

Galactic Empire > Imperium of Man
Warhammer 40k > Star Wars
Chaos > Other factions in a free-for-all
Mandalorkians = Cool idea, you're all welcome

Deadshane1 wrote:

LordofHats wrote:
Like I said before: Star Trek vs 40k really is not a very interesting comparison. The Borg are probably one of the larger civilizations in Star Trek and they're easily dwarfed by the 40k Orks or Humanity. Plus the technology present in 40k is vastly superior to that presented in Star Trek, so I doubt the Borg would stand much of a chance.

I call foul here.

Tech in 40k is IN NO WAY MORE ADVANCED than in Trek.

Trek=Beam and Energy weapons are primary weapons systems.

40k= mostly projectile weapons, slow, unwieildy and again, never having a chance of hitting the Enterprise if on alert.

Lets not forget that in the 40k universe, MUCH tech has been lost over the course of time. You cannot tell me that a ship which uses the manpower of thousands of slaves in order to load a single sub-light nova cannon shell is more advanced than a ship armed with beam weapons that uses Tractor-beam Technology in order to alter the coarse of an asteroid the size of a small moon.

Trek Ships are more advanced. Probably due to the losses of technology that has plagued the Imperium for the last several thousand years.

In fact, the Imperium is essentially moving BACKWARDS technologically if you think about it....while the Star Fleet is all about learning, research and study.

Perhaps, but:

You overestimate how fast Star Trek ships are and its value in combat. Yes they can go to warp but what real value is the ability in a fleet scale engagement? They can move as fast as they want, but when they're hit their hit, and from what I've seen, 40k ships hit a lot harder than Star Trek ships.

The ships in 40k make the Star Trek ships look like tug boats, sure they are slower but they're actually built for war.

I also bring up that the Imperium make Star Fleet look like an ant hill. Even if the Enterprise can pull a Neo and dodge the shots from one ship, they can't dodge continuous volley's of fire from fleets the size of those in 40k.

Also, phasers in Star Trek are in fact weak. They've been shown effective against energy based shields and the like but less effective against a solid object than projectile weapons, and even if 40k ships have "slow" which is rather ambiguous when it comes to space, they have some pretty powerful boom available. The most powerful 40k ships also have powerful energy weapons that make the phaser seem like a water gun in comparison.

I'll rephrase: Technologically Star Trek is superior, but in aspects of warfare they are inferior to the 40k races who have done nothing but fight each other for 10,000 years.

I disagree about Star Fleet handling boarding parties. Most of the time once a enemy has gotten onto a Star Fleet ship, the crew ends up getting crushed. Phasers also fire slowly, much slower than a storm bolter, and the old kill setting has always been overrated. You forget that the material being shot matters. The phaser even on max has different effects based on what it hits. A terminators armor could or could not be enough to protect the wearer, so that they can be evaporated snap of a finger is a moot point. Even if the boarders were repelled, I think even Five terminators could greatly cripple a star fleet ship, as their ship board security is few in number, and star fleet ships have a tendency to blow up when even power conduits are damaged. When your numbers are smaller this matters.

EDIT: In truth even this is kind of a silly comparison. By their own nature Star Trek ships are much more "realistically" depicted than their Star Wars or 40k counterparts. I think an Imperial Battlebarge would make mince meat of a Sovereign class star ship and that's the best Star Fleet can muster, and Intrepid, Galaxy, and other designs tend to have fighting tacked on as an afterthought, with on Defiant and Akira class actually being built to engage the enemy and even they aren't really dedicated to that role type. Star Trek ships when put up against 40k ships just don't stack that well. There's ground to compare them but the universes they exist in are different and they way they are present varies which has an effect on any attempt to compare them. The same is true of the classic Star Trek vs Star Wars comparisons, and lets not even get to Battlestar Galactica, one of the most "realistic" as far as depiction goes where the pooer battlestar would end up looking rather pathetic when compared to the standards of other universes.

Who cares about low level of tech of the Imperium the power matters.In battlefleet gothic torpedoes have range of 400,000km and in the Nightbringer dark eldar detected an energy build-up 300,000km from them and that was from strike cruiser.Lances are very powerfull they can very quickly devastate continents.They also release a large amount of energy and UFP,Klingon,Borg etc... ships would be cut in 2 pieces.The lasgun doesn't have frequency so Borg shield cannot adapt to them.If we include necrons the battle would be slaughter.Don't get me wrong I love ST and 40k.Teleporters take a lot of energy in ST so this is why we never see the boarders beamed into space.What about alpha-class psyker controlling ST crew like a puppets.Nova cannons travel about 275,000km/s and after that they explode and fill space with a large explosion.Necron's ships are fast,powerful and their tech is more advanced than ST.ST ships often fight at sub-light because warp takes an energy.

On an actual discussion note, the problem with Star Trek vs WH40K is that as technologically advanced as the Trek Universe may be, they're mostly dedicated to study and exploration - the Star Fleet is more an exploratory fleet, dedicated to, as Trek always puts it, exploring the vast reaches of space and "going where no man has gone before".


The Imperium of Man, however, is more interested in going where it knows damn well where it needs to go, and killing everything there while yelling about the Emperor. Lower tech level or not, pretty much everything tech-based in the 40K universe has a military application and can be used to pretty much kill everything. So Trek would be fethed.

Not to mention that the Inquisition alone would have a field day dealing with an entire fleet of humans who want to get along with aliens and learn from them, rather then kill 'em all.

What do you mean the star fleet has no war ships, They produced Defiant class, Saber class attack Fighter, Nova class( had the same armament as the enterprise E but 10 time smaller) yeagar class(fast support) Norway class (gun boat), steamrunner class, Centur class, akika class, those were all design to go against the borg, but most saw action against the Dominoin.

I would love too see a hand to hand fight with a terminator and a borg drone...... drone sticks the inplant tubes in the armor, five minutes later a new drone is born now in termintor armor.... but that all theory..... we will never know since the systems are are like apple and oranges...lol

StarGate wrote:What do you mean the star fleet has no war ships, They produced Defiant class, Saber class attack Fighter, Nova class( had the same armament as the enterprise E but 10 time smaller) yeagar class(fast support) Norway class (gun boat), steamrunner class, Centur class, akika class, those were all design to go against the borg, but most saw action against the Dominoin.

It is a well known fact Star Fleet has "no" warships. Do they have ships capable of fighting a war? Yes. Do they have ships with the sole purpose of design being combat? No. the Defiant and Sovereign classes are the closest Star Fleet has, but even these two ships weren't built solely with war in mind.

Also, it's Akira class, not Akika. Steamrunner, Yeager, Norway, and Saber classes have never been stated as a warships in cannon. There is no Centaur class, there is a ship called the Centaur whose class is never stated. One more thing, Nova class is not a warship. It is a design based on deep space exploration. You seem to be reading off the list from Star Trek: Legacy or possibly the pre-release info on Star Trek Online. The information there in is not considered cannon to my knowledge and presents Star Fleet classes that are specifically stated for other purposes as warships.

One should also note the limit of all the classes you have mentioned: They're tiny including the ones that actually are heavily armed by Federation Standards (Defiant and Akira). Star Fleet has no capital ships. The closest is the Sovereign Class which is itself nothing when compared to an Emperor Class ship and still small in comparison to the Imperial Navy's smallest ships. Even in the Star Trek universe, Star Fleet ships tend to be more weakly armed than the ships they oppose, even the most heavily armed Akira and Sovereign classes are out gunned by the ships of other races. Star Fleet does in face, have no warships.

I'd even argue that the Akira class though heavily armed are pretty lame for "warships." There hasn't been a single one that went to a major fight and didn't end up in a thousand pieces :p. The Defiant really is an overrated tug boat, and there are only a few of them, and likewise there are only a few Sovereign class ships. Star Fleet just can't be compared to the Imperium on a scale of war. We can debate the specifics of ship design all we want, but Star Fleet would lose. It doesn't matter if you can whip out ships by the hundred (which I doubt any Star Trek ship could do) when there's thousands upon millions more waiting.

Star Fleet is not a force that exists to fight wars. They are ill equipped for such a task as only 4 classes are cannon stated as having had combat given considerable thought in design (yet they still are not classified as warships because that's not what they are. They're ships that are built to survive a fight, not ships built TO fight) and the entire size of Star Fleet is probably comparable to a smaller Imperial Fleet which no doubt would boost much higher numbers and ships designed for war. This is like comparing the Persian Empire to the Spartans, but the Persian empire only gets 300 guys and the Spartans get the millions. Ironically fitting as the largest to my knowledge fleet fielded by Star Fleet was just over 300, and there have only be a few such battles. Star Fleet has routinely showed a "lack of initiative" when it comes to fighting it's enemies till all hell has broken lose, in this case Hell being a massive invasion of thousands of ships, millions of Guardsmen, and probably a few Astartes Chapters.

The closest race that could survive in 40k of all the Star Trek races would be the Borg, and I'm skeptical of this simply because what makes the Borg so deadly in Star Trek is an unknown in the 40k universe.

I would love too see a hand to hand fight with a terminator and a borg drone...... drone sticks the inplant tubes in the armor, five minutes later a new drone is born now in termintor armor.... but that all theory..... we will never know since the systems are are like apple and oranges...lol

How do you even know the drone would be able to penetrate the armor? In the entire existence of Star Trek no one has ever fought armored infantry forces because no one seems to bother raising any. We don't know just how effective the Borg insto-assimilation would be against Space Marine armor anymore than we do the max setting on a phaser. That's assuming they get past the hail of storm bolter fire.

It has been agreed on many forums that Imperium would own ST.Warhammer 40k weapons have much higher level of power.Reverse engineer isn't that easy the Borg can't assimilate terminators with their helmets on because the nanoprobes must go first through layers of adamantium but for those without helmets maybe the marine's immune system could hold nanoprobes.Nids would own Borg because they also adapt.Necrons would own Borg beacuse the necrodermis can't be assimilated.Necrons also teleport.They can follow ST ships in warp with their Inertialess Drive.Da orks would smash hummies in bot' universe cos da orks has been made for fightinand winning.

@Deadshane: You forget, where the Federation will Fight you ship to ship in Classic Battles, the Imperium will just go to whatever planet they want to kill and activate their Warp Drives and feth everything up royally

Deadshane1 wrote:Terminators teleporting onboard....great, just what the security force could handle easily.

Terminators, encumbered with heavy armour against lighter and faster opponents that are able to take cover against the solid projectiles.

Terminator fills hall....then is vaporised by a phaser set on maximum. Phasers have no problem with this sort of work.

Numerical advantage manpowerwise doesnt mean much. A single phaser can be used to slaughter hundreds of men easily. (see: The Omega Glory)

With a phaser in hand, your numbers account for nothing.

I'm with the guy with the bad hair here. ST phasers disintegrate their targets. Nothing in the imperium does that except gauss weaponry.
40K ships, again with the possible except of nercons because they too appear to use faster than light travel, would be able to even track a ST ship in combat. They literally could be anywhere beofre the tracking instruments registered where their location was ina given point in time.
If you argue the Imperium teleport is different then you can argue the inverse. There's nothing to keep Captain Kirk from transporting in some antimatter bombs inside a 40K ship.

ST also has the movie marine rules already in play. Whenever a main actor is in danger, then the stunt double meat shield ablative armor known as "redshirts" would take the hit. Even Fulgrim on his best day didn't have the "stunt double" rule.

Finally, ST does have the Kirk. He's never lost. Its not within the realm of physics for him to lose. The Imperium loses all the ing time.

Warhammer has Creeeeeeeeeeeeeeed!He appears suddenly from earl grey tea with his titan.

I think if we look at the equivalent weapons in 40K for phasers and then apply those weapons' effects to terminator armor, we'll see the armor coming out ahead every time. I don't know if guys in armor designed from suits built to work in plasma reactor drives (and then later militarized) are worried about whatever a starfleet security officer points at him. Oh yeah, and this armor is just as effective against dimensional weapon attacks (psychic-daemon crap) as it is conventional weapons. Besides, imagine the damage a single Terminator with a thunder hammer could do to a starfleet ship's engineering room before teleporting back to his battle barge. In star trek, the phaser has effectively negated the use of personal armor. In 40K weapons of a much more destructive nature have necessitated an even more powerful personal armor to resist them.

tl;dr version: phaser = lasgun

Please point to something in the 40K arsenal that disintegrates its target? Gauss is it, and thats years ahead of Imperium tech. They don't wear armor in ST because armor is just more matter to a phaser. They swing freaking swords around for crying out loud. Spock would die from laughter. Kirk, however, would ingratiate himself with the SOB's and show them the error of their ways, in between wiping out the Battle Fleet Terra of course.

Imperium has nothing that shoots faster than light. ST does. As soon as they realize how utterly clunky the Imperium fleet is, its tapdance and torpedo time (or again just swing in and transport torpedoes onto the bridge of the 40K fleet). Tap tap szap.

Frazzled wrote:Please point to something in the 40K arsenal that disintegrates its target?

Doesn't a Disintegrator do that (the Dark Eldar weapon)

Hey we're not talking mythical creatures. Who are these Dark eldar you speak of?

Good point.
I thought we were talking Imperium vs. federation mostly.

Don't forget the power of sheer numbers. Even if the imperium's weapons were not as advanced, they have many many many more guardsmen to throw at the Federation and a will to fight a for a thousand years and not surrender. Think of Iran using unarmed troops during their war with Iraq. The federation doesn't have the will to put on a true "all out" war that the imperium does. Even Kirk balked at killing civilians.

True that. However the fed could blast the troop transports before they made orbit. Same reason BFG is what matters baby.

How many could they shoot down, and how quickly? Also, how do you track a ship going through the warp? Don't ships navigating the warp just appear, as if out of nowhere? Also, what about the role of psychers? As far as I know they are a rare occurrence in the ST universe, but the IG field them numerously.

Its noted there's usually a long period of time from warp translation in system to getting to orbit. Even if several hours thats sufficient for pounding.

Doesn't Terminator armor incorporate a personal power field? I thought that was what their 5+ invulnerable save came from. If they were ray-shielded, then it is entirely possible that they could survive any number of phaser hits.

Along the same lines, what happens when phaser meets Stormshield?

I'm also a bit skeptical of the durability of Starfleet bulkheads. If they tend to explode when power surges go through them, then they would not stop a bolter round.


My position is that the Imperium would probably win the first few battles simply due to more massive weaponry and an eagerness to use it, but Starfleet would win the war. This is because the Federation has access to science, and could adapt to their enemies. The Imperium has a mighty hammer, but no ability to create a different tool. Starfleet can also reliably transport men and materials. The Imperium has a tendency to get lost in the Warp for months at a time. They wouldn't even have started looking for a ship that had been missing as long as Voyager.

Frazzled wrote:I'm with the guy with the bad hair here. ST phasers disintegrate their targets. Nothing in the imperium does that except gauss weaponry.
40K ships, again with the possible except of nercons because they too appear to use faster than light travel, would be able to even track a ST ship in combat. They literally could be anywhere beofre the tracking instruments registered where their location was ina given point in time.
If you argue the Imperium teleport is different then you can argue the inverse. There's nothing to keep Captain Kirk from transporting in some antimatter bombs inside a 40K ship.

ST also has the movie marine rules already in play. Whenever a main actor is in danger, then the stunt double meat shield ablative armor known as "redshirts" would take the hit. Even Fulgrim on his best day didn't have the "stunt double" rule.

Except you ignore my point. What is being hit by the phaser matters. Several times in the series the max setting has NOT killed its target. It's highly suggested that the denser matter is the less damage a phasers seems to do, which is supported by the fact that you never see a star ship battle end with a volley of phaser fire into the enemy ship but rather a volley of projectile weapons with a phaser spread to lighten the hull for the real hit. There is no suggested precedent in the ST universe to say a Terminator can be vaporized by a phaser. No armored infantry forces like Marines have been shown in Star Trek and in fact the Star Trek races seem to ignore the concept of planetary combat all together (It'll suck when you have your Gaurdsmen invasion force mixed in with your helpless civilians). The opposite is in fact true. Armored creatures and objects have in fact proven quite resistant to phaser fire and this provides the best guess as to how a phaser would effect an armored SM. They could probably evaporate a Guardsmen though considering his much lighter armor.

And you too overestimate the value of speed in combat. Speed is not the end all I'm faster than you I win trait. 40k ships hit harder, having a much (ludicrous really) longer fire range. When I can put out a hail of gun fire it doesn't matter how much I miss. I just need to hit you, and the way 40k ships fire they fire huge volleys in mass. You can't necessarily dodge a solid wall of projectile when your ship has to be within 3 kilometers to be effective and the enemy ships can five at 100,000x that range. Given that Trek vessels are drastically smaller than 40k ships this is huge.

You're also ignoring why teleporting Terminators could work. The inverse is not true. In 40k teleportation goes through another dimension. 40k ships also have shields which seems pretty effective at stopping ST style teleportation.

PS: Kirk is only awesome cause Shattner was so bad he was good and your red shirts comment made me lol. Awesome.

My position is that the Imperium would probably win the first few battles simply due to more massive weaponry and an eagerness to use it, but Starfleet would win the war. This is because the Federation has access to science, and could adapt to their enemies. The Imperium has a mighty hammer, but no ability to create a different tool. Starfleet can also reliably transport men and materials. The Imperium has a tendency to get lost in the Warp for months at a time. They wouldn't even have started looking for a ship that had been missing as long as Voyager.

An interesting analysis. I agree the first few battles would be easy Imperium wins and that Star Fleet would begin putting up more resistance later, but you need to consider the nature of war. The currently accepted theory of warfare is that three things are needed to win: Resources, Dedication, Command. This is Carl Von Clauswitz triad of warfare. Lets compare these aspects:

1. Resources: We already know the Imperium has this one in the bag. A Galaxy spanning empire trumps a puny little Federation of Planets in a tiny nook of the Galaxy. More so, the Size of Star Fleet is probably in the area of around 1000-1500 ships (That's my guesstimate, as I can't think of any time the actual size of the fleet has been mentioned), and as already stated, they don't have any warships. They have a few classes with heavy armaments, but these are few in number, with the bulk of the fleet being research, diplomatic, and expeditions designs. Put that against a armanda likely much larger than them to an insane level riddles with ships built for war, and Star Fleet is at a huge disadvantage.

2. Dedication: I'd give this to the Imperium. As I said before, Star Fleet shows a remarkable level of incompetence when it comes to fighting its enemies. They rarely launch offensives until invaded, and half their offenses seem poorly planned or betting on ideas that couldn't possible work but somehow do. Considering how relentless the Imperium is once it has it's teeth in you, and Star Fleets ineffective ability to wage war, I can't imagine giving this to the Federation. The Imperium would just keep coming back until they eventually won, and with their resources, the Federation can adapt all they want but they just won't be able to keep up as their casualties mount.

3. Command: This is a tough one. The Federation has some able commanders when it comes to planning and strategy, and I'd say they easily trump most of the corrupt and incompetent commanders the Imperium can offer except for the supreme skill of the Space Marines. I would hand this to Star Fleet myself but when you stack them up against a relentless Imperium with nigh infinite resources I can't imagine it would be enough to save them.

There's also the Federations utter lack of ground forces. Once the Imperium invades, they will dig in, and the Federation isn't going to go Exterminate them all when the Guard are sitting in populated cities. Considering they're lack of any sign of a trained or armored ground force, I can't see them reclaiming the worlds they lose with any real success even if they manage to win the battle in space, which I'm skeptical of. They can enter warp speed faster than the Imperium can enter the warp, but the Imperium moves faster from one end of the galaxy to the other than Star Fleet overall, so the actual speed at which the Imperium advances might overwhelm the Federation, especially since the nature of the warp makes intercepting Imperial fleets before they're within their target system impossible.

Phasers go through solid rock. I think that works on ceramite well enough. But I wil give and say termies have the power of uber cool here and would be excellent in boarding.

We've never seen heavy ST assets (on the series). We do know the concept of a ground vehicle is almost alien to them at this point.
How are you going to shoot when you don't know they are there? ST ships would hit you before your sensors recorded it. Thats not even counting cloaking tech.

I'll give way on the ground side for the moment, but will note, depending on era, ST manufacturing is scads more capable. They're manufacturing is only minimally limited at the time of ST TNG. And lets not forget if it gets really bad, easily replicated devices wipe out planets and slow moving 40K fleets.

The thing is, the Imperium would not even try and battle them. They would just nuke it from orbit.

Gwar! wrote:The thing is, the Imperium would not even try and battle them. They would just nuke it from orbit.

Nuke what? Thats the whole point. They have to get there.


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Thats the problem with these comparisons. The two universes are so different they can't be compared.

SW vs. Imperium vs. Bugs vs. Aliens vs. Babylon 5 vs. Cylons much more fun.

Imperium vs. ST vs. Zentraedi main fleet, vs. some of the more interesting sci fi just doesn't work.

Nid main hive fleets vs. Zentraedi, now thats fun for all.

The thing is, from what I remember from that awful "Star Wars v Star Trek" stuff, both Star Wars and 40k ships have Gajillawats of shooting, and Brazillawats of shielding. Star Trek ships only have Billawats and Spillawats, so they're 1/100,000,000 as powerful. This can all be calculated because one time they shot something, and something happened, even though other things happen when they shoot other things, because no one actually making these settings gives a flying feth about consistency in "blowing up things in space" ability.

It has been agreed on many forums that 40k would own ST.

Frazzled wrote:Phasers go through solid rock.

And yet some alien creature with a silicon hide can't be killed. Sadly this is where we get the Star Trek effect, the effect where things sometimes do stuff they couldn't do before and then never do it again till it's the only way to resolve the plot. We might not be able to solve the Phaser vs Termie question :(, but I think it's silly to suggest that even should a phaser kill the Terminator, the fact a Star Fleet crew has no armor, limited security personnel, and usually very sensitive ships, Terminators couldn't do some primo damage before being vaporized.

I disagree still about the quality of Star Fleet weapons and ship design. Is the quality in universe standard superior? Yes. Is it superior when we switch over to the other galaxy? I don't think so. Size is gonna matter in this game, the an 8 kilometer battleships makes the puny little Sovereign look like nothing. Add in the Federations poor track record when it comes to waging war and the superior fire power of a 40k ship.

Lets forget the phasers here this has been pointed out. Phasers weren't even enough to kill Borg Cubes with their shields offline simply because phasers can't do enough damage to a solid object to destroy it. That's why Star Fleet has torpedos, and the effective range of Star Fleet weapons is much shorter than that of 40k weapons. They'd have to get real close by 40k standards just to fire their phasers, and given Imperial ship design, they'd end up catching a broadside and probable some lances which I'd judge more than enough to cut most Star Trek ships to pieces.

The thing is, from what I remember from that awful "Star Wars v Star Trek" stuff, both Star Wars and 40k ships have Gajillawats of shooting, and Brazillawats of shielding. Star Trek ships only have Billawats and Spillawats, so they're 1/100,000,000 as powerful. This can all be calculated because one time they shot something, and something happened, even though other things happen when they shoot other things, because no one actually making these settings gives a flying feth about consistency in "blowing up things in space" ability.

This is true. Someone did a side by side comparison of a the Enterprise D to an Acclamator (sp?) class ship and you just look at it and no one can argue the Enterprise would win. Frazzeled is right. It's fun to discuss but Star Trek just doesn't stack well against more fantastical universes.

IvanTih wrote:It has been agreed on many forums that 40k would own ST.

It has been agreed on many forums that my hold on reality is questionable at best. So? Its not quantity, its quality baby.
I wipe my butt with many forums.


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Orkeosaurus wrote:The thing is, from what I remember from that awful "Star Wars v Star Trek" stuff, both Star Wars and 40k ships have Gajillawats of shooting, and Brazillawats of shielding. Star Trek ships only have Billawats and Spillawats, so they're 1/100,000,000 as powerful. This can all be calculated because one time they shot something, and something happened, even though other things happen when they shoot other things, because no one actually making these settings gives a flying feth about consistency in "blowing up things in space" ability.

Orkie wins the thread. I think you'll find that whichever universe wins is directly related to the number of rabid fanoys on each side in the discussion.

Although we all agree Kirk pwons all, that terminators are uber cool and cannot be stopped, that B5 had scads of excellent quotes and lines, and that this is the last battle for Br'Tai.

...

What would happen if we gave Kirk an Space Marine Battle Barg :O

Oh wait... he'd go pick up lots of Eldar babes in his new ship XD. lol

PS: You know he totally would.

LordofHats wrote:...

What would happen if we gave Kirk an Space Marine Battle Barg :O

Oh wait... he'd go pick up lots of Eldar babes in his new ship XD. lol

PS: You know he totally would.

Know it? Dude I'd count on it.

One word Genesis, that will end all discuss, If the federation could make a device like that,(even if it doesnt work full) doesnt that tell you they can do alot more damage too the imperuim .....

Like Bone's said God made the earth in 6 days, but now look out world we have Genesis we can make it in 6 hours....

And yes they had perfected it later on in the book series.

Also dont forget there phasing cloak( that can pass thur matter) . just think of the things you can do with it Quantum torpedoes, and the best one of all
Tricobalt devices( The tricobalt warhead is a subspace weapon whose high-yield detonations can tear holes in subspace. Tricobalt devices are not a standard armament of Federation vessels and yields are calculated in Tera-Cochranes.) basiclly there outlawed due to the damage they cause too space /time. So

StarGate wrote:So

So... 40k ships then open up a portal to Hell and destroy anything without a Geller Field with Daemons.

How about the Omega 13?

now back to the terminator question and borg heres the answer on how it would happen.

Injection Tubules
Two clawlike extensions implanted in the arm or hand of a drone. These tubules are capable of penetrating any known alloy or energy field. These tubules are used to inject nanoprobes to assimilate the cells by reprogramming the DNA sequence. This is the first stage of the assimilation process. They can also be used to penetrate and take control of computer systems.....


So a Group of three drones teleports on to a battle barge( do they have shields??) IDK since i dont play Gothic, just 40k. So if no shields they have complete freedom to come and go off imperium ships.
Assimilating the ship or if the tech is too low tech for them they just destroy it.

Not always. The nanos didn't work for species whatever that then proceeded to kick the beejesus out of the Borg.

species 8472 from fluidic space... episodes 326-401 in star trek voyager... they resist borg assimilation because the creatures immune system attacked any and all intruders. I'd have to believe that the space marines enhanced metabolism could do the same, or at least fight it off long enough for an apothecary to deal with it.

StarGate wrote:One word Genesis, that will end all discuss, If the federation could make a device like that,(even if it doesnt work full) doesnt that tell you they can do alot more damage too the imperuim .....

Like Bone's said God made the earth in 6 days, but now look out world we have Genesis we can make it in 6 hours....

And yes they had perfected it later on in the book series.

Point 1: Genesis has not reared it's head in the Star Trek universe since that movie. I'm inclined to believe they gave up on the prospect.

Point 2: Furthermore in Star Trek the Books ARE NOT canon. Only TV Series and Films are officially recognized as canon. If we're gonna start breaking Canon, then I say the Federation has to fight The Emperor, all Twenty Primarchs, 1000 Marine Legions, the Eldar, Tyranids, Orks, and the Forces of Chaos. See what happens when we go down that road?

Point 3: Given the mentality of the Federation they'd never use it even in they had it. They're not gonna go wiping out whole worlds to fight the Imperium killing billions of civilians. This also assumes they'd actually ATTACK their enemy on their own ground which I have yet to see the Federation ever do. The Federation plays like the South in the Civil War. They stand around and do little to nothing till someone comes in and pick s a fight and then they get their butts whooped till a out of no where plot twist saves them. But against a relentless enemy like the Imperium this strategy would work for them as well as it did for Jefferson Davis, primarily that they keep getting hammered until they ultimately have nothing left to fight with.

Also dont forget there phasing cloak( that can pass thur matter)

The Federation is banned from using Cloak. They have two devices on loan from an ally (or do they only have one after the Defiant got blow up? Did they get a replacement?), and their on puny ships that can't do any real damage to something eight kilometers long.

just think of the things you can do with it Quantum torpedoes, and the best one of all
Tricobalt devices( The tricobalt warhead is a subspace weapon whose high-yield detonations can tear holes in subspace. Tricobalt devices are not a standard armament of Federation vessels and yields are calculated in Tera-Cochranes.) basiclly there outlawed due to the damage they cause too space /time. So

Tricobalts are not standard on Federation ships in canon. They're relatively new and are only used on a few designs, namely the Sovereign and Akira classes. And the Imperium has these too in the form of Vortex Missiles, and overall the yield of Imperial weapons dwarfs the yield of Federation weapons.

StarGate wrote:now back to the terminator question and borg heres the answer on how it would happen.

Injection Tubules
Two clawlike extensions implanted in the arm or hand of a drone. These tubules are capable of penetrating any known alloy or energy field. These tubules are used to inject nanoprobes to assimilate the cells by reprogramming the DNA sequence. This is the first stage of the assimilation process. They can also be used to penetrate and take control of computer systems.....


So a Group of three drones teleports on to a battle barge( do they have shields??) IDK since i dont play Gothic, just 40k. So if no shields they have complete freedom to come and go off imperium ships.
Assimilating the ship or if the tech is too low tech for them they just destroy it.

Imperial ships have shields. The Borg would not assimilate Imperial technology found on Imperial ships because there really isn't anything new on them for the Borg to find interesting (except maybe the power generation system). The Imperials are less technologically advanced than their Star Trek counterparts, the thing that leads me to believe they'd win in a fight is just that their weapons pack a lot of boom and their ships are massive and their numbers are likewise massive.

You can't hold ST to their own morals when stressed in all at war. pretty quickly-anything goes, as evidenced by their maneuvers to get Romulus into the war, and their poisoning of the changelings.

Cloaks are illegal in use by treaty. Treaty doesn't apply to 40K, and they could quickly convert. These are humans after all. our morals are always frangible when the going gets rough.

Plays like the South in the Civil War? You must have missed the two invasions into yankee lands (that whole Gettysberg thing). We have little information on how the wars with the Klingons and Romulan empires were fought, but we do know the Feds invaded back to Cardassia to defeat Cardassia/Dominion.

As I hail myself Lord Tyrant I feel that I would win hands down. As the Cheese stands alone.

Isn't the Imperium much bigger than the federation?

Also, would the Fed ships be able to track Warp Movements?

40k beats everything with its grim dark OTTness.

Halo universe is nothing, star trek is nothing Star wars is nothing. All of them would be minor Crusades.

Grimdark always wins.

Frazzled wrote:You can't hold ST to their own morals when stressed in all at war. pretty quickly-anything goes, as evidenced by their maneuvers to get Romulus into the war, and their poisoning of the changelings.

Cloaks are illegal in use by treaty. Treaty doesn't apply to 40K, and they could quickly convert. These are humans after all. our morals are always frangible when the going gets rough.

So we can break canon? Sweet. That means I can pull any random crap I feel like and the whole debate descends into drivil. I've actually argued these sort of things before. Once you star breaking canon the whole thing become pointless. If the Federation doesn't fight like the Federation, then the Federation isn't winning, it's some Federationesque thing that's not the Federation and the whole debate is pointless.

Plays like the South in the Civil War? You must have missed the two invasions into yankee lands (that whole Gettysberg thing). We have little information on how the wars with the Klingons and Romulan empires were fought, but we do know the Feds invaded back to Cardassia to defeat Cardassia/Dominion.

Two invasions that were not supported by anyone other than Robert E Lee and a select few generals, many of whom were dead before Gettysburg. These "attacks" were half hearted and given little to no real resources by those in the top brass and were doomed to failure from the beginning. I call any strategy that proposes you can sit back and not launch a prime offensive a Southern Civil War strategy, because it's a strategy that cannot win.

The South WOULD have won the civil war, had they dedicated all of what they had to taking Washington at the onset. The North was not prepared for a war, and it took them longer to mobilize than the south. Had the south seized their initiative after the early battles of the war and marched on DC, they would have won, but they didn't and their ultimate unwillingness to launch a full attack on the north is what led to their defeat because they simple stood back and allowed themselves to be pounded.

The Federation fights much the same way, but has their random insane should not work but somehow does work plans to save them as well as technology primarily superior to that of the nations they fight in their own universe. This advantage might not be enough to save them in 40k given their poor track record in warfare (They don't even have the South primo advantage of vastly superior military leadership). The Second Battle of Chin'Toka shows great incompetence on the part of Federation leadership in planning battles, and no other battle proposes that they are actually any better than Chin'Toka showed them to be, as they usually attempt to win through numbers or technological superiority, which neither can be applied to a war against the Imperium whose technology though less advanced seems to pack ludicrously higher numbers in terms of hitting power and defense.

Star Fleet is not a war force. Put them against a real war force, and one that isn't falling apart the way the Cardassians and Klingons are, and they get crushed. If the Borg were to actually put sonme initiative into fighting the Federation, do you really think they'd lose? The Borg could take over the Alpha quadrant with ease, the only thing stopping them is that they never use their numberical advantage against the Federation or surrounding nations. Compare that to something the scale of the Imperium. Star Fleet couldn't possible win.

Ships coming and going from the Warp can't be intercepted. The Imperium could bypass the Federations meager fleets and directly attack their planets, which the Federation obviously has no real ability to remove an occupying planetary force once they've dug in.

PS: I disagree about Star Wars vs 40k. That's probably the most even Sci-Fi match up you can get, and it would ultimately come down the effectiveness of the Jedi and other force users against the Imperium.

See this is the 40K vs. ST writ small. The numberless hordes of warhammerlings eventually wear down the ST defenses, until they are forced to retreat and push the "Tzeentch says push this NOW" button...


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We agreed on SW vs. 40K as more interesting.

The thought that the South could have won had they invaded the North full on (despite having actually done so with Lee) go after the fortifications surrounding Washington is both the topic for another thread and, er not supportable.

Frazzled wrote:See this is the 40K vs. ST writ small. The numberless hordes of warhammerlings eventually wear down the ST defenses, until they are forced to retreat and push the "Tzeentch says push this NOW" button...

More or less. I also bring up the weapons again. 40k weapons shoot at ludicrously long ranges, while the effective combat range of ST ships is between 1 and 5 kilometers. Take that and the much smaller size of Star Trek ships and they'd not only be outnumbered but they'd be pushed around like a wee little baby trying to fight a sumo wrestler.

That's why I said earlier that ST vs most other science fiction universes doesn't stack well. ST is a much more realistic depiction of space travel and exploration than 40k and Star Wars, both of which have ludicrously high and unrealistic numbers attached to ships and weapons. They're very different beasts and though they can be compared and it can be fun, there odds are heavily against ST's favor because of the nature of its presentation and structure as a universe.

EDIT: I'd number it this way:

40k vs Star Wars: Even match up, very interesting
40k/Star Wars vs Star Trek: Uneven match up. Not that interesting at all.

For Star Trek the closest match ups would probably be Star Gate of the X universe. Maybe Homeworld? I don't know, maybe not Homeworld. I'd like to put Galactica in here but honestly I can't think of anything that stacks well against it. It's got one of the most realistic depictions of a sci fi universe and forgoes many of the sci fi space battle conventions like energy shield and energy weapons so I cant really think it would do well against any of the ones I can think of off the top of my head except maybe Ender's Game or Heinlein's Troopers.

Let's look at the ST vs 40k... SERIOUS.

If the Imperium of Man were to invade the Federation, nothing the Federation could do would be able to halt the Imperial juggernaut... for about a week.

The Imperial forces -would- however self destruct as they would have to conform to the somewhat more grounded realities of the Star Trek world. Logistics and supply trains, which are always conveniently ignored in 40k background would suddenly be critical problems. The huge and ponderous Imperial forces would be ammunition and fuel starved without resupply from the Forgeworlds, and FOOD would be at critical levels. Even stripping conquered worlds of all usable material would not be able to satiate the Imperial juggernaut...

Needing to scavenge for material would take away their greatest strength, which is EXTERMINATUS from orbit - forcing them to GARRISON and PACIFY the inhabitants first.

Without Exterminatus, the Imperial forces are really kicked down a notch, as force shields, energy weapons, and transporters are found a plenty on all Federation worlds. Some planets even have planetary defense shields which would really slow down the attackers.

Assuming that Starfleet didn't screw the pooch and waste their fleet hopelessly fighting the inital assault... They can marshal their forces to fight the increasingly more spread out Imperial forces - ambushing small task forces with concentrated 5:1 or 10:1 advantage. While the Star Trek ships are useless in a stand up fight, Warp speed hit and runs with torpedo attacks WILL wreck up any Imperial battle group as they have no chance to BRACE against such tactics.

Here are some other incredibly hillarious LOLZ techniques:

Drop out of warp and transport live torpedoes (or tri-cobalt devices if desired) directly to the engine rooms of capital ships... warp out.

Drop out of warp with 5-6 ships, tractor beam one capital ship and drag it into a second one, warp out.

Drag a pile of ASTEROIDS at warp speed, drop out of warp, cut tractors, jump to warp. Giving the gift of an inertia charged asteroid attack on a packed battlegroup in transit is always LULz.

Here's another hillarious one... drop an overloading warp core in the middle of their battlegroup... warp out.

Hit and run... but each one will cause damage that the pitiful Imperium of Man's tech priests soothing laments and litanies will be hard pressed to repair!

The longer the Imperial fleet can be delayed, the quicker it will be pacified, either from Captains turning traitor due to desperation, or entire navy crews staging mutinies due to extreme faitigue or hunger.

LordofHats wrote:

For Star Trek the closest match ups would probably be Star Gate of the X universe. Maybe Homeworld? I don't know, maybe not Homeworld. I'd like to put Galactica in here but honestly I can't think of anything that stacks well against it. It's got one of the most realistic depictions of a sci fi universe and forgoes many of the sci fi space battle conventions like energy shield and energy weapons so I cant really think it would do well against any of the ones I can think of off the top of my head except maybe Ender's Game or Heinlein's Troopers.

I think Galactica and B5 (or at least the humans on B5) are more comparable as well as Firefly (on a non jump basis). Both have a jump capability. Both use much slower craft otherwise, with guns, plasma, nukes, etc. The other races aremore advanced and there is more beam weaponry but its much more realistic. Both also have like real human emotions...

The max range of a naval phaser is shorter than the length of some IN ships. A nova cannon shell is the size of a skyscraper, and ye olde "weapon batteries" are high explosive railguns with hundreds of thousands of kilometers of range and are 1650 feet long (operated by humans on chains!) Absolutely everything is bigger, better, and MOAR GRIMMDARK! in BFG than in 40K.

This Goes Double Against Starfleet.

Best Imperial tactics include-
Exploiting ST's biggest weakness, no standing boots on the ground army. With zero tanks, artillery, heavy weapons, or atmospheric air support, any of the goofy warmachines and finely honed urban combat techniques in 40K would flatten any police, provincial or civillian resistance. Starfleet cant fight without a planet to be based at, and can't defend or take back territory on planets.

Pointing and laughing at the Feds unfermilliarity with the warp. Namely jumping in behind a system's defenses.

Ramming speed!

Pulling a Kryptmann and diverting a WAAAGH! or hive fleet in the ST universe's general direction.



Of course I will concede two points, but only two.

1. Q is omnipotent. Chaos/ Emps is not (HERESY!!!)
2. Plot armor. James Tiberius Motha****ing Kirk will pull something crazy out of nowhere and somehow shut the warp rift (or whatever) connecting the two, and the Imperials will either settle down and assimilate or form their own little enclave/empire.

In all likelyhood, the imperium would just ask for an alliance with the federation, and act confused when the destruction of all Vulcans, Klingons, and possibly Romulans is looked upon with hostility.

PS. The Federation does not possess warp tecnology, nor will it ever, having no active psykers.
The asteroid thing wouldent work because either they are dropped in the warp and dissolve because the warp/matter doesnt mix, or the IN fleet goes past it on another plane of reality.

PPS. Wait, is the astronomicon even visible?

keezus wrote:Let's look at the ST vs 40k... SERIOUS.

If the Imperium of Man were to invade the Federation, nothing the Federation could do would be able to halt the Imperial juggernaut... for about a week.

The Imperial forces -would- however self destruct as they would have to conform to the somewhat more grounded realities of the Star Trek world. Logistics and supply trains, which are always conveniently ignored in 40k background would suddenly be critical problems. The huge and ponderous Imperial forces would be ammunition and fuel starved without resupply from the Forgeworlds, and FOOD would be at critical levels. Even stripping conquered worlds of all usable material would not be able to satiate the Imperial juggernaut...

Needing to scavenge for material would take away their greatest strength, which is EXTERMINATUS from orbit - forcing them to GARRISON and PACIFY the inhabitants first.

Without Exterminatus, the Imperial forces are really kicked down a notch, as force shields, energy weapons, and transporters are found a plenty on all Federation worlds. Some planets even have planetary defense shields which would really slow down the attackers.

Assuming that Starfleet didn't screw the pooch and waste their fleet hopelessly fighting the inital assault... They can marshal their forces to fight the increasingly more spread out Imperial forces - ambushing small task forces with concentrated 5:1 or 10:1 advantage. While the Star Trek ships are useless in a stand up fight, Warp speed hit and runs with torpedo attacks WILL wreck up any Imperial battle group as they have no chance to BRACE against such tactics.

Here are some other incredibly hillarious LOLZ techniques:

Drop out of warp and transport live torpedoes (or tri-cobalt devices if desired) directly to the engine rooms of capital ships... warp out.

Drop out of warp with 5-6 ships, tractor beam one capital ship and drag it into a second one, warp out.

Drag a pile of ASTEROIDS at warp speed, drop out of warp, cut tractors, jump to warp. Giving the gift of an inertia charged asteroid attack on a packed battlegroup in transit is always LULz.

Here's another hillarious one... drop an overloading warp core in the middle of their battlegroup... warp out.

Hit and run... but each one will cause damage that the pitiful Imperium of Man's tech priests soothing laments and litanies will be hard pressed to repair!

The longer the Imperial fleet can be delayed, the quicker it will be pacified, either from Captains turning traitor due to desperation, or entire navy crews staging mutinies due to extreme faitigue or hunger.

All those plans are rendered worthless by the fact that the Imperium has shields on their ships. Star Trek style teleportation doesn't go through shields very well. More so, how effective would the small Star Fleet ordanence be against ships the size of those used by the imperium? You'd need a lot of bombs. Plus, not too many Star Fleet designs have a spar warp core (by that I mean none). They can't go to warp after dumping theirs. Star Fleet is still limited by number, and the fact their leadership is incompetent and probably wouldn't even think of the plan anyway (granted it's not a bad one).

The Imperials do in fact address logistics and such if you've ever read any of the books (which in 40k are canon unlike the ST conterparts). They have huge supply lines.

The astroids one is especially clever, but again, 40k ships are big and designed to be hit hard. You'd need a huge astroid, possibly one larger than most Federation ships could pull.

And I forgot about B5 and Firefly, darn me XD.

Earthforce at time of B5 season 3 vs. Cylon battle fleet at time of Colony attack.

yea baby, Base stars popping nukes left and right vs. earth destroyers uncapping their primaries. All the while star furies furball with Cylon raiders. Me likey.

keezus wrote:Let's look at the ST vs 40k... SERIOUS.

If the Imperium of Man were to invade the Federation, nothing the Federation could do would be able to halt the Imperial juggernaut... for about a week.

The Imperial forces -would- however self destruct as they would have to conform to the somewhat more grounded realities of the Star Trek world. Logistics and supply trains, which are always conveniently ignored in 40k background would suddenly be critical problems. The huge and ponderous Imperial forces would be ammunition and fuel starved without resupply from the Forgeworlds, and FOOD would be at critical levels. Even stripping conquered worlds of all usable material would not be able to satiate the Imperial juggernaut...

What?

Why would they be critical problems now? The Imperium fights in protracted campaigns against things like Tyranids and Orks without running into your mass starvation problem. Tell me why Imperial ships would be unable to refuel and store food sufficiently. Explain what makes this different, and no "the universe is more realistic" BS, people in 40k can starve and run out of fuel, but their fleets generally don't, and they won't in the Star Trek universe unless something changes.

Needing to scavenge for material would take away their greatest strength, which is EXTERMINATUS from orbit - forcing them to GARRISON and PACIFY the inhabitants first.

Without Exterminatus, the Imperial forces are really kicked down a notch, as force shields, energy weapons, and transporters are found a plenty on all Federation worlds. Some planets even have planetary defense shields which would really slow down the attackers.

Except, as noted, for the fact that all of the weaponry in Warhammer 40k is magnitudes more powerful than Star Trek.

Assuming that Starfleet didn't screw the pooch and waste their fleet hopelessly fighting the inital assault... They can marshal their forces to fight the increasingly more spread out Imperial forces - ambushing small task forces with concentrated 5:1 or 10:1 advantage. While the Star Trek ships are useless in a stand up fight, Warp speed hit and runs with torpedo attacks WILL wreck up any Imperial battle group as they have no chance to BRACE against such tactics.

"Brace"? What the hell? They have shields, and a 10:1 advantage is nothing when the scale of power being used is 10,000:1. They won't wreck anything, they will run out of torpedos before they destroy a battleship. And they don't need to "brace" their shields, shields are always active.

Here are some other incredibly hillarious LOLZ techniques:

Drop out of warp and transport live torpedoes (or tri-cobalt devices if desired) directly to the engine rooms of capital ships... warp out.

Assumes they can go through Void Shields, target the correct areas of the ship, get close enough to fire, not get killed in the meantime, be in the place where they would need to intercept the fleet. Since they can't transport through their own shields, going through another universe's seems unlikely.

Drop out of warp with 5-6 ships, tractor beam one capital ship and drag it into a second one, warp out.

Except 40k capital ships are hundreds of times their size, and no where near each other.

Drag a pile of ASTEROIDS at warp speed, drop out of warp, cut tractors, jump to warp. Giving the gift of an inertia charged asteroid attack on a packed battlegroup in transit is always LULz.

"Packed battlegroup"? Do you know anything about space?

Here's another hillarious one... drop an overloading warp core in the middle of their battlegroup... warp out.

As above.

Hit and run... but each one will cause damage that the pitiful Imperium of Man's tech priests soothing laments and litanies will be hard pressed to repair!

Except that Void Shields can replenish faster than Star Trek ships can damage them.

The longer the Imperial fleet can be delayed, the quicker it will be pacified, either from Captains turning traitor due to desperation, or entire navy crews staging mutinies due to extreme faitigue or hunger.

Nothing the Federation can do can delay them, nothing they can do can cause desperation, Federation captains and crews will be the ones turning traitor once they realize that civilization as they know it requires submitting to the Imperium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sniperjolly wrote:Of course I will concede two points, but only two.

1. Q is omnipotent. Chaos/ Emps is not (HERESY!!!)

Well, omnipotent where? Chaos rules the Warp; or, more to the point, it is the Warp. They can turn you into salami if you're in their domain, but they're limited in influence when it comes to the real world. The Q continuum could definitely do more in the real world than Chaos could hope to (or the C'Tan could).

2. Plot armor. James Tiberius Motha****ing Kirk will pull something crazy out of nowhere and somehow shut the warp rift (or whatever) connecting the two, and the Imperials will either settle down and assimilate or form their own little enclave/empire.

But can he defeat the ULTRAMARIENS HURR?!?!?

(Actually, his middle name is Tiberius...)

Frazzled wrote:Earthforce at time of B5 season 3 vs. Cylon battle fleet at time of Colony attack.

yea baby, Base stars popping nukes left and right vs. earth destroyers uncapping their primaries. All the while star furies furball with Cylon raiders. Me likey.

Those are some sweet finds there Fraz . Have you seen the video where Picard faces off with the Emperor? Pretty funny stuff XD.

A little perspective on how ridiculous the "packed battlegroup" comment is: You know how Texas is a pretty big place? It's about 1200 kilometers across. Ships in Battlefleet Gothic generally only ever get that close to each other if they are trying to ram. Base to base contact is over 2000 km distance. Some of the tactics in this thread would require ships to get so close that defense turrets could engage them.

In the debate of Trek Vs 40k, I have only two words left to put forward.

TANTALIS FIELD

Goodbye Emperor, so much for the Imperium's Warp Travel.

Now what B!tches!?

Deadshane1 wrote:In the debate of Trek Vs 40k, I have only two words left to put forward.

TANTALIS FIELD

Goodbye Emperor, so much for the Imperium's Warp Travel.

Now what B!tches!?

Nuke it from Orbit?

Was the Tantalus device the one which only showed up in a single episode that took place in an alternate universe?

Raxmei wrote:Was the Tantalus device the one which only showed up in a single episode that took place in an alternate universe?

Yep, but it was in one universe...good chance there is another one in the other...and its Canon.

Deadshane1 wrote:Yep, but it was in one universe...good chance there is another one in the other...

Why?

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Yep, but it was in one universe...good chance there is another one in the other...

Why?

Well, it is refered to as a "Mirror" or "Parallel" universe. So why do you think?

this basically sums up the terminator and star trek teleportation question nicely

Deadshane1 wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Yep, but it was in one universe...good chance there is another one in the other...

Why?

Well, it is refered to as a "Mirror" or "Parallel" universe. So why do you think?

The Galactic Federation didn't exist in that universe, so I don't know that the Tantalus field would exist in the regular one. Or that it doesn't instantly heal people in the regular universe (cuz everythings sdrawkcab!).

If it did exist, why would the Galactic Federation have it?

what about section 31??? the black ops of star fleet remember them, the ones that basicly destroyed the founders with gentic bio weapon.... So Star Fleet will go the distance.With out the knowlegle of the right hand ( which is the front man of the federation) were the left hand poisons and main control of the universe from the shadows.... well so we cant use books as canon .... so were do you get ur information about 40k?? there no tv shows or movies??

StarGate wrote:what about section 31??? the black ops of star fleet remember them, the ones that basicly destroyed the founders with gentic bio weapon.... So Star Fleet will go the distance.With out the knowlegle of the right hand ( which is the front man of the federation) were the left hand poisons and main control of the universe from the shadows.... well so we cant use books as canon .... so were do you get ur information about 40k?? there no tv shows or movies??

Errrm.. You do realise that:
Star Trek Canon = The Shows
40k Canon = The Books.

You don't use the Star Trek Books as Canon any more than you use the Dawn of War games as canon.

Gwar! wrote:You don't use the Star Trek Books as Canon any more than you use the Dawn of War games as canon.

The Dawn of War games are canon...

The difference is that the books are held as canon by GW because GW made them, and extended a license to Relic games and incorporated the contents of the games into their canon. The Star Trek books were condemned ages ago by Gene Rodenberry, the creator of Star Trek and as such nothing outside the TV series' and movies have been considered canon (this is fitting especially since many of the books contradict information in the original source material).

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Yep, but it was in one universe...good chance there is another one in the other...

Why?

Well, it is refered to as a "Mirror" or "Parallel" universe. So why do you think?

The Galactic Federation didn't exist in that universe, so I don't know that the Tantalus field would exist in the regular one. Or that it doesn't instantly heal people in the regular universe (cuz everythings sdrawkcab!).

If it did exist, why would the Galactic Federation have it?

Not EVERYTHING in the mirror universe is the exact opposite.

Remember, the Halkens were pacifists and weak in BOTH universes.

But this is all moot. The arguement is basically pitting strengths of one fictional universe against another with the only restriction being Canon.

Tantalus Feild is Canon, and 'poof' the emperor out of existance. Its the "Star Trek" trump card against the Imperium. The Imperium will completely crumble without Warp Travel.

Look at it this way, its just one more way that Kirk can "Once again save the universe as we know it." as is his speciality.

Its either the Tantalus Feild, or a simple yet effective patented "Kirk Drop Kick"....which honestly is far more deadly than any alien technology could ever hope to be.

remmember as soon as it looks like the imperium is losing (as if lol ) they would just some how, with the aid of a inquisitor and some Tactical Genius of some description and divert a hive fleet towards the st universe lets see how smart cap Kirk and his crew feel being Tyranid chow (or a Ork waaagh just depends on how much of a Jerk the imperium feels like being

(and excuse my spelling just at work lol)

Deadshane1 wrote:But this is all moot. The arguement is basically pitting strengths of one fictional universe against another with the only restriction being Canon.

Tantalus Feild is Canon, and 'poof' the emperor out of existance. Its the "Star Trek" trump card against the Imperium. The Imperium will completely crumble without Warp Travel.

Except the Imperium will travel better than ever. The powers of The Warp are canon, and can guide ships better than the Emperor ever could.

Or maybe the Imperium will get the Necron's FTL travel. Might as well, it's cannon. Except it's silly, because Daemons aren't helpful, Necrons don't give technological tips to the Imperium (usually), and the Federation doesn't have the Tantalus Field.

Deadshane1 wrote:Not EVERYTHING in the mirror universe is the exact opposite.

Remember, the Halkens were pacifists and weak in BOTH universes.

But this is all moot. The arguement is basically pitting strengths of one fictional universe against another with the only restriction being Canon.

Actually we were arguing Federation vs Imperium, but I guess if we're gonna start pulling stuff out of no where then I'm free to pull the Emperor is magically still alive and kicking and the Eye of Terror is on his side now.

Just because it is in canon doesn't mean it is a legitimate item of discussion. The item in question is in the hands of no mainstream ST race, and only exists in a parallel reality and has since never been seen or heard of. This is like the classic flaw of bringing up the Planet Killer. ST does not have this weapon at its disposal, because the Canon ST universe does not have it and has shown no sign of attempting to gain it. The argument of using it against the Imperium is moot. In other words going down the road you suggest is this:

Orkeosaurus wrote:Or maybe the Imperium will get the Necron's FTL travel. Might as well, it's cannon. Except it's silly, because Daemons aren't helpful, Necrons don't give technological tips to the Imperium (usually), and the Federation doesn't have the Tantalus Field.

Just because its canon doesn't make it a relevant point of discussion. If you'd read the past few pages we've mostly limited our discussion to Star Fleet vs Imperium, not all of Star Trek vs all of 40k. If you want to go down that road though you're more than welcome trying to convince anyone that the Star Trek universe stands a chance when the Nids, Imperium, Necrons, Daemons, CSM, Eldar, and Orks all come down on top of them. Even the Star Wars universe would have a hard time convincing me they could beat that.

I think a "universe versus universe" battle is going to scale kind of ridiculously. Both universes are inhabited by gods, contain parallel dimensions, have beings capable of time travel...

It would get silly, nothing would ever be resolved (although I don't know that a Fed versus Imp fight is really that much more comparable).


I think the best use of our time would be to come up with clever cross-over ideas. Like, what if they remade the original Star Trek series, only the crew is all Orks on a Space Hulk? (Spock is a Human.)

"Let's smosh ar ship inta dem! Waagh!"

"Why don't we just shoot them? Then we won't blow up too."

"Always wif dat lojik, ya Spocky git! Alroight, we'l do it yur way..."

Orkeosaurus wrote:"Let's smosh ar ship inta dem! Waagh!"

"Why don't we just shoot them? Then we won't blow up too."

"Always wif dat lojik, ya Spocky git! Alroight, we'l do it yur way..."

...

Sir.

You just made my day

One force vs another is more easily compared than pitting whole universes against each other yes. That's my most organized debate into these issues usually focuses on specific points (yeah there are actually places that organize this sort of thing online... what? I only go for the nerd rage ).

I think the next topic would be how many Eldar babes could Kirk pick up in his spiffy new Battle Barge, and what would be the effect if the Vulcan's made first contact with the Dark Eldar?

Who were those guys in the latest movie? Romulans?

They looked Dark Eldary.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Who were those guys in the latest movie? Romulans?

They looked Dark Eldary.

Ironically they kind of are XD. Look up the history of the Romulans and the Vulcans on memory-alpha.org. You're in for a surprise.

Ok, let's look at it this way.

As far as the war goes, this is going to be almost entirely lost or won in space. As far as real battlegrounds are concerned, the mass regiments of tanks, Guard and Spehs Mahrinz would easily sweep aside any ground resistance. And probably with a fraction of the forces they'd normally have ot use for conquering a planet.

In space, in a real space battle would boarding actions be viable? If kirk can get onto another ship and whatev (shrug) then can't termies teleport onto the captains bridge? (I think someone had a pic of that on this thread).

Really, each side is capable of utter insane acts on the battlefield, but Star Trek would only have Kirk for that. Imperium would have a bit more crazy heroes to call on.

LordofHats wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Earthforce at time of B5 season 3 vs. Cylon battle fleet at time of Colony attack.

yea baby, Base stars popping nukes left and right vs. earth destroyers uncapping their primaries. All the while star furies furball with Cylon raiders. Me likey.

Those are some sweet finds there Fraz . Have you seen the video where Picard faces off with the Emperor? Pretty funny stuff XD.

No. That would be cool.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I think a "universe versus universe" battle is going to scale kind of ridiculously. Both universes are inhabited by gods, contain parallel dimensions, have beings capable of time travel...

It would get silly, nothing would ever be resolved (although I don't know that a Fed versus Imp fight is really that much more comparable).


I think the best use of our time would be to come up with clever cross-over ideas. Like, what if they remade the original Star Trek series, only the crew is all Orks on a Space Hulk? (Spock is a Human.)

"Let's smosh ar ship inta dem! Waagh!"

"Why don't we just shoot them? Then we won't blow up too."

"Always wif dat lojik, ya Spocky git! Alroight, we'l do it yur way..."
Funny

Automatically Appended Next Post:
This thread is good.I created it just 3 days before and it already has over 100 posts and 1000 clicks.

Regarding Logistics:

Orkeosaurus wrote:Why would they be critical problems now? The Imperium fights in protracted campaigns against things like Tyranids and Orks without running into your mass starvation problem. Tell me why Imperial ships would be unable to refuel and store food sufficiently. Explain what makes this different, and no "the universe is more realistic" BS, people in 40k can starve and run out of fuel, but their fleets generally don't, and they won't in the Star Trek universe unless something changes.

Due to their immense size, assuming a "small battlegroup" of 4 battleships, 12 cruisers and support craft, using a conservative estimate of 1M crew / battleship, 0.25M crew / cruisers, along with a "pacification force" consisting of 5M Imperial Guard, that's a total of around 12M combatants. Each human consumes an average of 3.63kg of food and an average of 2L of water each day. Assuming the ships have "adequate reclaimation facilities", we'll drop that to 0.25L/day. So that's 43560 tons of food and 3000 tons of water that needs to be carried, per day of operation. 4 weeks supply is: 1.3 trillion tons of supplies. Easily replenishable right?

The sheer numbers that 40k throws around are utterly ludicrous when you stop and give it any sort of rational thought - canon or not.

Regarding weapon strengths...

Orkeosaurus wrote:Except, as noted, for the fact that all of the weaponry in Warhammer 40k is magnitudes more powerful than Star Trek.

I do not know how you can definitively say this. 40k book canon is filled with hyperbole. If you go by game canon, there appears to be no logical reason that Starfleet ships would not be able to damage 40k capital ships, after all, torpedoes launched from bombers can damage them.

Re: Warp core "bombs" - considering that photon torpedoes are small yeild matter/antimatter weapons already, I do not see how it would be impossible for a ship to tractor beam a spare core behind them and use it as a dumb fire weapon. Going further - Romulan capital ships are powered by artificial singularities. If the ability exists within the ST universe to create an artificial singularity, it stands to reason it could also be weaponized... to great effect, considering the mass of most 40k equipment.

While it is easiest to look at the Imperium vs Starfleet in a vacuum, the reality of the situation is that Starfleet's typically non-agressive stance and diplomatic channels would likely bring the Klingons, Romulans and many of the other unaligned forces in the quadrant into a loose alliance. Not to say that any of the other races would fare any better, but it would beef up their numbers a bit while giving the alliance more cloaked ships.

And then 40k would just nuke it from orbit.

You don't appreciate that Star Fleet want to minimise their own casualties, while 40k will just as likely dive their ship into a planet just to show them.

And then an Eclipse Star Destroyer shows up and says: "Hey that's my job!".

keezus wrote:Due to their immense size, assuming a "small battlegroup" of 4 battleships, 12 cruisers and support craft, using a conservative estimate of 1M crew / battleship, 0.25M crew / cruisers, along with a "pacification force" consisting of 5M Imperial Guard, that's a total of around 12M combatants. Each human consumes an average of 3.63kg of food and an average of 2L of water each day. Assuming the ships have "adequate reclaimation facilities", we'll drop that to 0.25L/day. So that's 43560 tons of food and 3000 tons of water that needs to be carried, per day of operation. 4 weeks supply is: 1.3 trillion tons of supplies. Easily replenishable right?

The sheer numbers that 40k throws around are utterly ludicrous when you stop and give it any sort of rational thought - canon or not.

Why would water reclamation only work at 75% efficiency? It would be higher than that. Which is a pretty big deal, since food weight should be dehydrated. Imperial Guard aren't necessary to destroy enemy planets, only to conquer them, and they'd be abandoned if they became a liability.

Each battleship is miles long, and have been described as similar to small cities. For all you know they have agricultural capabilities on board.

The fact is, they don't all starve. That's the canon, and there are plenty of ways to get around your problem, which means they're in use.

Regarding weapon strengths...

Orkeosaurus wrote:Except, as noted, for the fact that all of the weaponry in Warhammer 40k is magnitudes more powerful than Star Trek.

I do not know how you can definitively say this. 40k book canon is filled with hyperbole.

It's still canon. Lance batteries level continents, turn mountain ranges into valleys, and sterilized a planet in Caves of Ice.

If you go by game canon, there appears to be no logical reason that Starfleet ships would not be able to damage 40k capital ships, after all, torpedoes launched from bombers can damage them.

From other ships in BFG; Not from Star Trek ships. And that's swarms of huge bombers, built solely for bombing capital ships.

Re: Warp core "bombs" - considering that photon torpedoes are small yeild matter/antimatter weapons already, I do not see how it would be impossible for a ship to tractor beam a spare core behind them and use it as a dumb fire weapon.

No idea on this one.

Going further - Romulan capital ships are powered by artificial singularities. If the ability exists within the ST universe to create an artificial singularity, it stands to reason it could also be weaponized... to great effect, considering the mass of most 40k equipment.

Well, if it hasn't been weaponized, the weapons are not canon.

While it is easiest to look at the Imperium vs Starfleet in a vacuum, the reality of the situation is that Starfleet's typically non-agressive stance and diplomatic channels would likely bring the Klingons, Romulans and many of the other unaligned forces in the quadrant into a loose alliance. Not to say that any of the other races would fare any better, but it would beef up their numbers a bit while giving the alliance more cloaked ships.

Well, if the Imperium is fighting against it's enemies it'll probably have to pull a Tau on the Federation. I mean, they're alien loving scum, but at least they're non-daemon-worshiping humans. Actually, as the Imperium tends to leave aliens alone if they don't feel they're any sort of threat, they probably wouldn't divert resources to fighting a lot of the races in Star Trek (Not until the Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, and Tau are gone, anyway).

Orkeosaurus wrote:

keezus wrote:Regarding weapon strengths...

Orkeosaurus wrote:Except, as noted, for the fact that all of the weaponry in Warhammer 40k is magnitudes more powerful than Star Trek.

I do not know how you can definitively say this. 40k book canon is filled with hyperbole.

It's still canon. Lance batteries level continents, turn mountain ranges into valleys, and sterilized a planet in Caves of Ice.

Starfleet Microtorp (runabouts, shuttles and space stations), 5 isoton yield
Starfleet Type 6 (Voy) Torp, 25 isotons yield standard, 200 isoton w/ Type 6 warhead. Effective range, 8M km
Starfleet Type 10 Torp, 200+ isoton yield
Starfleet Quantum Torp: 50 isoton yield with 20 isoton antimater charge, effective 70 isoton yield, deployable at warp speeds
Transphasic Torps don't deliver much more than normal torpedoes, but have shield bypassing properties.

Canon is sketchy about isoton yield effectiveness - however
25 can vaporize a city
54 can destroy a small planet(oid)
90 can destroy a hardened military facility effective range 800km radius

Standard Starfleet torps are shielded, self guilded and can burrow underground. Shielding is sufficient to alow a torpedo to reach the stellar core of a sun.

Based on the above, I can see how one might conclude that Starfleet weapons are (by canon) underpowered and ineffective.

Not to get into the nitty gritty. It's been well established that ST probably wouldn't win, (Borg or Q aside), but I don't think it'd be as easy as you are describing.

-edit- The other issue is that Star Trek's pseduo science has some small connection with actual science leading to quantifiable effects, where as technology that powers void shields, starship plasma reactors and lance batteries might as well be magic, as 40k canon makes no effort to explain the "hows" of their function, nor can the tech priests that chant the littanies and apply the sacred ungents and seals to appease the machine spirits tell you how the damn thing works if their lives depended on it. A sword, mace or sharp stick can kill a man, but we all know they function best in different circumstances because we understand their modes of function. With no ability to understand the mechanisms by which they function, all one can do is go by the effects - which as per the hand weapon example, is hardly conclusive.

40k will never make it look what there up against

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X_fu6DJBeI

And

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1eFdUSnaQM#movie_player

This picture doesn't include 40k ships, but it does have ships from various other shows and stories.

Spaceship Size Comparison

http://www.merzo.net/

If you go to -10x there it is... Retribution Class. The Star Trek ships are pretty much dwarfed (other than the Borg ). Star Destroyer is dwarfed as well!

-edit- Zentraedi Fleet from Macross might make a good fight of it. The Boddole Zer Main Fleet only had 4795122 ships. (Roughly 0.1-0.05% of their total fighting strength, numbers wise)

I love that site
But to save people having to scroll and manually look, here are the bad boys, both at the -x10 scale:

The Imperial Retribution Class Battleship BloodHawk, from Battlefleet Gothic, 7.5km long.

Federation Constitution


Yeah, F**k You Star Trek.

Cheesepie wrote:40k will never make it look what there up against

How could you leave out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyhhFzE5O5U

Size doesnt really mean much of anything in Sci-Fi.

There are several episodes of Star Trek alone where they boast or show that a single photon can destroy an object many many many times the size of the Enterprise or firing ship.

It wouldnt surprise me if the comparison of the Bloodhawk to the Enterprise is close to or almost the same as say, the first death star to say....Alderaan.

Compare the Super Star Destroyer to the Enterprise. The Super Star Destroyer fires lasers. Lasers cannot even penetrate the Enterprises Navagational sheilds....not the real sheilds brought up for combat, the sheilds that protect the ship from space dust while in warp. The Super Star Destroyer doesnt even have Sheilds as sophisticated as the Enterprise...since their "Deflectors" only really "soften" the impact of a laser blast. I doubt they'd be very effective against a Phaser which is a faster deadlier laser (which for some reason everyone here is saying is weak), Much less stop a Photon/Quantum Torpedo.

I'm sure there are other examples of this in other Sci-Fi entertainment.

Size matters not.

........................................

One other thing, people keep citing the HUGE-NESS of the Imperial army. Again, size doesnt really mean all that much if you're more technologically advanced.

The Imperium is huge in comparison to the Eldar which are a dying race, they however have a higher level of technology and frequently create problems for the Imperium.

Why cant the Emperor's forces simply wipe out the Eldar? Technology.

Once again, the Federations technology seems higher to me than that of the Imperium due to the fact that over the stretch of time the Imperial forces have LOST much of the knowledge that have gotten them were they are now.

Faster than light travel AND warfare, beam weapons, and hand held weapons that can kill hundreds of enemy ground troopers when weilded by a single infantryman who, due to being armed with a single hand phaser, is technologically head and shoulders above his opponents. These are what the Feds have going for them. A Tech advantage. Even if outnumbered, as are the Eldar, the Imperium wont be able to simply "wipe them out". If the Imperium's lo-tech abundance was enough to handle a technologically superior foe, the eldar would've been exterminated long ago.

Another thing,you may not see much ground combat in 'Trek because possibly SERIOUS ground combat is obsolete in the future. I dunno bout you guys, but seriously, a close combat weapon on a battlefeild with lasers and exploding missles for BULLETS is sort of stupid. Who wants to be in the infantry when ships are able to phaser or Vortex/Virus bomb a planet? NO-ONE. 40k conveniently forgets that fact in order to bring us shiny infantry models to play with.

Star Trek doesnt suspend such disbeleif. Starships can lay waste to a planet or at the very least an entire city on said planet. Screw the invasion or occupation until everything is destroyed. No point in wasting countless lives.

Perhaps the Imperium has those lives to waste but it would be a TOTAL waste when a single ultra powerful vortex or virus bombing makes your job hundreds of times easier and faster.

In the future....the type of ground combat we're talking about would be totally obsolete. Star Trek accepts this fact, 40k doesnt.

keezus wrote:The sheer numbers that 40k throws around are utterly ludicrous when you stop and give it any sort of rational thought - canon or not.

That's why I said the two don't stack well together XD. But if we're going to start discrediting things based on whether or not they make sense: Every plot shield every created in Star Trek is void. All the major characters are dead, all the random stuff that saved humanity no longer applies, and the Federation doesn't exist because they got assimilated in First Contact.

AGAIN: See what happens when we go down that road?

As for Isotons: If you bother to pay attention you'll notice there is one written canon source: The Star Trek Technical Manuals (with the exception of the now out of date Star Fleet Technical Manual, most of whom's info was retconned by later series and other manuals) from which statistics and data about ships is pulled. You'll notice that the current maximum yield on Star Fleet torpedos is 50 isotons and that technical manual being more recent than Star Trek Voyager's The Omega Directive which gave off those silly measurements (silly by ST standards). In Star Trek: Voyager, the writters seemed to have ignored their source material and often applied numbers to torpedos (and other things) that are ludicrously high by Star Trek standard, seen once in an episode and never seen again and not considered cannon by mainstream Star Trek fans because later material has retconned them. If Torpedos were indeed capable of those yields, why doesn't Star Fleet use them all the time? That's because of Star Trek's ever consistent plot shield that loves to screw around with us by changing the rules when it is convenient, and as such the values present in those episodes though canon is not a point for discussion.

PS: Another reason the two don't stack up well: Star Trek writers suck at consistency. You won't notice because their tiny but stuff in Star Trek gets retconned more often than Marvel Comics, which makes it a pain in the butt to ever discuss Star Trek without invalid information popping up.

Deadshane1 wrote:It wouldnt surprise me if the comparison of the Bloodhawk to the Enterprise is close to or almost the same as say, the first death star to say....Alderaan.

So your arguement is, that a photon torpedo can destroy things many times its size, so it could destroy the Death Star or Alderaan? Logical fallacy good sir. An a Straw-Man argument I might add.

Size matters not.

Anyone who has ever studied warfare will tell you straight up that the whole "size doesn't matter" phrase is bull. Size does in fact matter and you've done nothing to prove it doesn't.

One other thing, people keep citing the HUGE-NESS of the Imperial army. Again, size doesnt really mean all that much if you're more technologically advanced.

The Imperium is huge in comparison to the Eldar which are a dying race, they however have a higher level of technology and frequently create problems for the Imperium.

Why cant the Emperor's forces simply wipe out the Eldar? Technology.

Or it could have something to do with the fact the Imperium is fighting multiple enemies and in their universe can't dedicate all their resources to hunting down a race that is very good at hiding. The Eldar survive because their craftworlds are on the fringe of the galaxy with pleny of things between the Imperials and them, not because of superior technology which obviously doesn't help them too much because they're still a dying race.

Once again, the Federations technology seems higher to me than that of the Imperium due to the fact that over the stretch of time the Imperial forces have LOST much of the knowledge that have gotten them were they are now.

Faster than light travel AND warfare, beam weapons, and hand held weapons that can kill hundreds of enemy ground troopers when weilded by a single infantryman who, due to being armed with a single hand phaser, is technologically head and shoulders above his opponents. These are what the Feds have going for them. A Tech advantage. Even if outnumbered, as are the Eldar, the Imperium wont be able to simply "wipe them out". If the Imperium's lo-tech abundance was enough to handle a technologically superior foe, the eldar would've been exterminated long ago.

Another thing,you may not see much ground combat in 'Trek because possibly SERIOUS ground combat is obsolete in the future. I dunno bout you guys, but seriously, a close combat weapon on a battlefeild with lasers and exploding missles for BULLETS is sort of stupid. Who wants to be in the infantry when ships are able to phaser or Vortex/Virus bomb a planet? NO-ONE. 40k conveniently forgets that fact in order to bring us shiny infantry models to play with.

Star Trek doesnt suspend such disbeleif. Starships can lay waste to a planet or at the very least an entire city on said planet. Screw the invasion or occupation until everything is destroyed. No point in wasting countless lives.

Perhaps the Imperium has those lives to waste but it would be a TOTAL waste when a single ultra powerful vortex or virus bombing makes your job hundreds of times easier and faster.

In the future....the type of ground combat we're talking about would be totally obsolete. Star Trek accepts this fact, 40k doesnt.

1. We don't know if the phasers would work, as pointed out earlier if you care to look. It might or might not be possible for a SM's armor to stop a phaser and protect the user in case of the max setting. If using less than the max setting well what is the difference between a Guard lasgun and a phaser? There isn't one. Take in that Star Fleet has no ground force and no form of armor they couldn't win the ground war they'd be pushed into.

2. You assume Star Fleet would suddenly cast aside the prime directive and all that good jazz to start destroying planets simply for convenience. The Imperials once on a planet would dig in, leaving Star Fleet no ability to bombard them from orbit unless their morals suddenly went down the tube and killing civilians is okay in their book now. Watch the show and you'll see the Star Fleet you suggest doesn't exist. They don't blow up planets just cause they don't like the people on them.

3. We can debate the merits of the two warp travels plenty but it boils down to this: Star Fleet ships go to warp faster and have more options in warp but this is useless to them BECAUSE; The Imperium's form of warp travel is faster than even Slipstream travel, their fleets cannot be intercepted by Star Fleet ships because of the nature of the Warp, and Star Fleet ships, could they do warp drive fly bys would have been seen doing it by now which suggests that to fight the Imperium they'd have to drop out of warp.

4. If we're going to start throwing things out the door because they don't make sense... I'm out of examples and am two lazy to think up new ones. So sue me

The amount of rage on this thread will please the /tg/ and give the new recruits for Angry Marines.

keezus wrote:Starfleet Microtorp (runabouts, shuttles and space stations), 5 isoton yield
Starfleet Type 6 (Voy) Torp, 25 isotons yield standard, 200 isoton w/ Type 6 warhead. Effective range, 8M km
Starfleet Type 10 Torp, 200+ isoton yield
Starfleet Quantum Torp: 50 isoton yield with 20 isoton antimater charge, effective 70 isoton yield, deployable at warp speeds
Transphasic Torps don't deliver much more than normal torpedoes, but have shield bypassing properties.

Canon is sketchy about isoton yield effectiveness - however
25 can vaporize a city
54 can destroy a small planet(oid)
90 can destroy a hardened military facility effective range 800km radius

Standard Starfleet torps are shielded, self guilded and can burrow underground. Shielding is sufficient to alow a torpedo to reach the stellar core of a sun.

Based on the above, I can see how one might conclude that Starfleet weapons are (by canon) underpowered and ineffective.

It sounds like an Isoton is somewhere around 5-10 Megatons. That would put the maximum yield for Tsar Bomba at around 10-25 Isotons, which is certainly consistent with vaporizing a city. That's still not much compared to the "levelling continents" description of lance weaponry, though.

Destroying a small planet(oid) seems to imply a lot of power, but it's kind of a vague description, both from the definition of "small" and "destroy".

Another interesting thing is apparently the 1.5 kg of antimatter in a torpedo (for Type 6?) would yield a maximum of 65 Megatons. Which is pretty effective, but still not lance level.


I may have underestimated the Federation's weaponry a bit, though; I don't know that the Imperial capital ships will be in a lot of danger (especially since ships in Start Trek engage each other at proximities that allow the surface defenses to fire at them), but cruisers and escorts might be at some risk.

Deadshane wrote:Another thing,you may not see much ground combat in 'Trek because possibly SERIOUS ground combat is obsolete in the future. I dunno bout you guys, but seriously, a close combat weapon on a battlefeild with lasers and exploding missles for BULLETS is sort of stupid. Who wants to be in the infantry when ships are able to phaser or Vortex/Virus bomb a planet? NO-ONE. 40k conveniently forgets that fact in order to bring us shiny infantry models to play with.

Star Trek doesnt suspend such disbeleif. Starships can lay waste to a planet or at the very least an entire city on said planet. Screw the invasion or occupation until everything is destroyed. No point in wasting countless lives.

Perhaps the Imperium has those lives to waste but it would be a TOTAL waste when a single ultra powerful vortex or virus bombing makes your job hundreds of times easier and faster.

In the future....the type of ground combat we're talking about would be totally obsolete. Star Trek accepts this fact, 40k doesnt.

So let me get this straight... the Galactic Federation will be less reluctant to kill billions of civilians in an all out war than the Imperium of Man will be?

The Imperium fights on the ground to secure things on the ground, whether it's an artifact or a planet. It's for the same reason Krik goes down in a shuttle with his phaser; that's what the Imperium does, on a large scale.

I mean, come one, why doesn't America just drop nukes on Iraq? It would destroy Iraq more quickly!

Except we're not trying to kill everyone on Iraq, we're trying to secure it until it's no longer a threat. The Imperium can't afford to wipe out the biosphere of every planet they go to war with, and the Federation doesn't do that either.

LordofHats wrote:Perhaps the Imperium has those lives to waste but it would be a TOTAL waste when a single ultra powerful vortex or virus bombing makes your job hundreds of times easier and faster.

Ah, you see that is not true. The Imperium in many cases needs to keep the world alive, as a recruiting ground or as a mineral/mining world. Virus Bombing it totally feths that plan up, hence the need for ground assaults to capture the planet.

Gwar! wrote:

LordofHats wrote:Perhaps the Imperium has those lives to waste but it would be a TOTAL waste when a single ultra powerful vortex or virus bombing makes your job hundreds of times easier and faster.

Ah, you see that is not true. The Imperium in many cases needs to keep the world alive, as a recruiting ground or as a mineral/mining world. Virus Bombing it totally feths that plan up, hence the need for ground assaults to capture the planet.

That wasn't from me XD. I missed a quote bracket and had to edit that on in. Gwar's right though. Your assumption that ground combat is obsolete is riddled with fallacy. Even if the Star Trek races don't use it anymore, the Imperium would, and that puts Star Fleet in a tough spot for getting them out. The idea that the Imperium wouldn't do it for some random reason is even more fallicious and without warrant.

Blegh.

My Point still stands!

LordofHats wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:It wouldnt surprise me if the comparison of the Bloodhawk to the Enterprise is close to or almost the same as say, the first death star to say....Alderaan.

So your arguement is, that a photon torpedo can destroy things many times its size, so it could destroy the Death Star or Alderaan? Logical fallacy good sir. An a Straw-Man argument I might add.

No my arguement is size doesnt matter.

Size matters not.

Anyone who has ever studied warfare will tell you straight up that the whole "size doesn't matter" phrase is bull. Size does in fact matter and you've done nothing to prove it doesn't.

Yea, in real life, but we're not talking about real life...are we? We're talking about Science Fiction. Where you really dont have to "Prove" anything at all.

One other thing, people keep citing the HUGE-NESS of the Imperial army. Again, size doesnt really mean all that much if you're more technologically advanced.

The Imperium is huge in comparison to the Eldar which are a dying race, they however have a higher level of technology and frequently create problems for the Imperium.

Why cant the Emperor's forces simply wipe out the Eldar? Technology.

Or it could have something to do with the fact the Imperium is fighting multiple enemies and in their universe can't dedicate all their resources to hunting down a race that is very good at hiding. The Eldar survive because their craftworlds are on the fringe of the galaxy with pleny of things between the Imperials and them, not because of superior technology which obviously doesn't help them too much because they're still a dying race.

Denying that the Eldar use their superior technology to survive doesnt even deserve a retort.

Also, thank you for bringing up another reason that the Imperium wouldnt be able to wipe out the Feds...not only due to the Tech issue, but they're also embattled on all sides.

'Preciate it.

Once again, the Federations technology seems higher to me than that of the Imperium due to the fact that over the stretch of time the Imperial forces have LOST much of the knowledge that have gotten them were they are now.

Faster than light travel AND warfare, beam weapons, and hand held weapons that can kill hundreds of enemy ground troopers when weilded by a single infantryman who, due to being armed with a single hand phaser, is technologically head and shoulders above his opponents. These are what the Feds have going for them. A Tech advantage. Even if outnumbered, as are the Eldar, the Imperium wont be able to simply "wipe them out". If the Imperium's lo-tech abundance was enough to handle a technologically superior foe, the eldar would've been exterminated long ago.

Another thing,you may not see much ground combat in 'Trek because possibly SERIOUS ground combat is obsolete in the future. I dunno bout you guys, but seriously, a close combat weapon on a battlefeild with lasers and exploding missles for BULLETS is sort of stupid. Who wants to be in the infantry when ships are able to phaser or Vortex/Virus bomb a planet? NO-ONE. 40k conveniently forgets that fact in order to bring us shiny infantry models to play with.

Star Trek doesnt suspend such disbeleif. Starships can lay waste to a planet or at the very least an entire city on said planet. Screw the invasion or occupation until everything is destroyed. No point in wasting countless lives.

Perhaps the Imperium has those lives to waste but it would be a TOTAL waste when a single ultra powerful vortex or virus bombing makes your job hundreds of times easier and faster.

In the future....the type of ground combat we're talking about would be totally obsolete. Star Trek accepts this fact, 40k doesnt.

1. We don't know if the phasers would work, as pointed out earlier if you care to look. It might or might not be possible for a SM's armor to stop a phaser and protect the user in case of the max setting. If using less than the max setting well what is the difference between a Guard lasgun and a phaser? There isn't one. Take in that Star Fleet has no ground force and no form of armor they couldn't win the ground war they'd be pushed into.

If you do not know the difference between a laser and a phaser, why are you even taking part in this discussion?

2. You assume Star Fleet would suddenly cast aside the prime directive and all that good jazz to start destroying planets simply for convenience. The Imperials once on a planet would dig in, leaving Star Fleet no ability to bombard them from orbit unless their morals suddenly went down the tube and killing civilians is okay in their book now. Watch the show and you'll see the Star Fleet you suggest doesn't exist. They don't blow up planets just cause they don't like the people on them.

Are we talking about two factions being at war and their capacity to destroy each other? Or are we going to begin going into the morals and philosophical implications of what they're doing? I thought we were simply talking about the ability of these two factions to make war.

Lastly, please try some decaf....you're getting a little too into this with your posts beginning to get borderline rude. We're just all nerding out here.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Deadshane wrote:Another thing,you may not see much ground combat in 'Trek because possibly SERIOUS ground combat is obsolete in the future. I dunno bout you guys, but seriously, a close combat weapon on a battlefeild with lasers and exploding missles for BULLETS is sort of stupid. Who wants to be in the infantry when ships are able to phaser or Vortex/Virus bomb a planet? NO-ONE. 40k conveniently forgets that fact in order to bring us shiny infantry models to play with.

Star Trek doesnt suspend such disbeleif. Starships can lay waste to a planet or at the very least an entire city on said planet. Screw the invasion or occupation until everything is destroyed. No point in wasting countless lives.

Perhaps the Imperium has those lives to waste but it would be a TOTAL waste when a single ultra powerful vortex or virus bombing makes your job hundreds of times easier and faster.

In the future....the type of ground combat we're talking about would be totally obsolete. Star Trek accepts this fact, 40k doesnt.

So let me get this straight... the Galactic Federation will be less reluctant to kill billions of civilians in an all out war than the Imperium of Man will be?

again, No, all I'm saying is that you can vortex a planet OR virus it if you're looking to not harm the real estate. OR set ships phasers on Stun to make security forces jobs easy.

What I'm saying is that Ground Combat in either universe is a needless waste of time, effort, and lives. Ergo...obsolete. 40k doesnt recognise this.

I mean, come one, why doesn't America just drop nukes on Iraq? It would destroy Iraq more quickly!

Because America doesnt have starships in orbit to Phaser-stun all of the Iraqi troops.

I believe that LordofHats is the champion of the 40k camp in this thread.

Hail to you, Lord General!

LordofHats wrote: You assume Star Fleet would suddenly cast aside the prime directive and all that good jazz to start destroying planets simply for convenience. The Imperials once on a planet would dig in, leaving Star Fleet no ability to bombard them from orbit unless their morals suddenly went down the tube and killing civilians is okay in their book now. Watch the show and you'll see the Star Fleet you suggest doesn't exist. They don't blow up planets just cause they don't like the people on them.

1. Prime directive doesnt apply. It protects PRE WARP civilisations or planets that are incapable of space travel.

2. Didnt Janeway get promoted to Admiral for her hand in pretty much destroying the Borg....you know, A RACE, a civilisation that was attempting to destroy the Federation? Feds commit Genocide FTW!


It's also beside THIS point but I figure since Genestealer (you know, big lobsters) claws can get thru Terminator armour....I figure phasers wont have much trouble with it OR power armour.

Deadshane1 wrote:again, No, all I'm saying is that you can vortex a planet OR virus it if you're looking to not harm the real estate. OR set ships phasers on Stun to make security forces jobs easy.

Virus bombing destroys the entire ecosystem. The Imperium has pretty limited terraforming ability, the virus bombs make a world dead to them.

What I'm saying is that Ground Combat in either universe is a needless waste of time, effort, and lives. Ergo...obsolete. 40k doesnt recognise this.

It's not a needless waste, because they need to control the planet's population. Guardsmen grow on their own in huge numbers, they require very little programing prior to use, little manufactured equipment, are reusable much of the time, can seek out and investigate things independently, are close to local problems, provide a visible sign of the Imperium's strength and support. They're extremely efficient at what they're there for.

Because America doesnt have starships in orbit to Phaser-stun all of the Iraqi troops.

Imperial ships can't "phaser stun" populations, but how would "orbital stunning" be a good method of occupying a planet? I mean you can't set it to only stun people who don't like you. You can't just continuously stun everyone on the planet, 24/7.

Hail the Lordofhats it is he who delivers retribution furries and trekkies.

I'll tell you why 40k loses against Star Trek.

Because the security forces stand 25" away from the marine bolters. Also any vehicles stay at least 49" away from any lascannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orkeosaurus wrote: You can't just continuously stun everyone on the planet, 24/7.

And how do you know this? I thought this was Sci-Fi where pretty much anything could happen?

Deadshane1 wrote:Genestealer (you know, big lobsters)

Deadshane1 wrote:I'll tell you why 40k loses against Star Trek.

Because the security forces stand 25" away from the marine bolters. Also any vehicles stay at least 49" away from any lascannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orkeosaurus wrote: You can't just continuously stun everyone on the planet, 24/7.

And how do you know this? I thought this was Sci-Fi where pretty much anything could happen?

Since power ratings don't exist for a lance strike, we'll go by the tenous example:

Lance strike = destroying a CONTINENT in one hit...

Using the size of say - AFRICA as a benchmark, and noting complete destruction to a depth of 10 km, we can conclude that the power of one lance shot = the energy to vaporize 300.22 million square km of rock.

So... using a conversion factor of 3 tons / cubic meter, that's 9 x10^14 tons destroyed. Using the ever unreliable Google, an electron beam uses around 2.5J to vaporize one g of rock... This scales to 2.25 x10^21 J to vaporize Africa.

(This is roughly 5x the energy consumption of the entire world... it was 5 x10^20 J in 2008.)

Converting to Megatons: 538157.27 Megatons per shot.

DON'T MESS WITH THE SPEHSS EMPRAH. The laws of physics don't apply!

-edit- As an engineer, this kind of fiction is an affront to my sensibilities, as short of using magic, this kind of power expenditure is not only infeasable at best, but downright ridiculous at worst. Talking matter / antimatter reactions being highly efficient, where the aforementioned 1.5kg of each only results in 65MT, you'd need 12.4 TONS each of matter / antimatter to achieve our one lance shot. Unfortunately, the Imperium doesn't use matter / antimatter reactors.

The Imperium uses fusion reactors - technology in its infancy now, so there is no way to accurately determine what would be needed for sustained lance fire. The energy needed is equivalent to 1% of our planetary reserves of U238 in fast fission reactors - If one assumes a 10x efficiency boost to fusion we're still talking insane infrastructure.

I'd hate to see what the Orks build on their days off!

(Everything in 40k is XBOX HUEG, but that's part of the fun; it sort of works, when you have an empire of a million planets.)

Orkeosaurus wrote:I'd hate to see what the Orks build on their days off!

More Dakka!

And how do you know this? I thought this was Sci-Fi where pretty much anything could happen?

Oh, so I can make it up as I go along? Sweet. The Emperor is a 5000 Mile high super giant who can breath in space and eat entire worlds. His coming is foretold by a shiny metal man riding a surf board... I've read this somewhere before.

Since you like to just talk and give no supporting evidence to back up your claims I'll do the same.

Deadshane1 wrote:No my arguement is size doesnt matter.

And it wasn't the point I was addressing.

Yea, in real life, but we're not talking about real life...are we? We're talking about Science Fiction. Where you really dont have to "Prove" anything at all.

Yet we're discussing combat tactics between two factions. Standard concepts seem applicable, and the fact is that size does matter even in Star Trek. Borg cubes are nigh unstoppable simply because they're so big, and the Federation has had many problems dealing with larger more heavily armed opponents over the course of the series. To simply assume size doesn't matter seems improper especially when you give no reason for why it doesn't matter other than "i say so."

Denying that the Eldar use their superior technology to survive doesnt even deserve a retort.

Also, thank you for bringing up another reason that the Imperium wouldnt be able to wipe out the Feds...not only due to the Tech issue, but they're also embattled on all sides.

'Preciate it.

Saying they survive simply because of their technology and they magically exist in a bubble where all other factors don't apply doesn't deserve much of a retort, but I gave one anyway which you seem to have simply shrugged off without any real thought or argument other than "You're wrong cause I say so." The Eldar survive in 40k because everyone is busy fighting someone else and they exist on the fringe of the galaxy where you have to go through a lot of stuff to reach them. That has saved them from being wiped out, not a myth of their technological superiority, which, were they so superior, why are they still dying out?

We're discussing the Imperium vs Star Fleet indeed so we can cast aside the embattled on all sides idea. We've already magically transported them to another universe (and 38,000 into the past), so to suggest this as a point when discussing a war between the two seems a little pointless. We've already put the two into a bubble, there's no pulling one side out of it just because.

If you do not know the difference between a laser and a phaser, why are you even taking part in this discussion?

Perhaps you need to look up what a laser is?

You have little knowledge of Star Trek from what I've seen, and make constant logical fallacies as well as give no support to your claims, why are you taking part in the discussion? See, I can be a dick too. The answer to both questions is because it's fun and obviously we enjoy it. So maybe you should stop the rudeness? The only one who has been insulting and rude thus far is you.

Are we talking about two factions being at war and their capacity to destroy each other? Or are we going to begin going into the morals and philosophical implications of what they're doing? I thought we were simply talking about the ability of these two factions to make war.

Lastly, please try some decaf....you're getting a little too into this with your posts beginning to get borderline rude. We're just all nerding out here.

As I said earlier in the thread if you bothered to read at all, what's the point in discussing Federation vs Imperium if the Federation isn't going to fight like the Federation? We already know the Federation has no ability to make war seeing as they have no "warships" and tend to just sit around until they get attacked and then have poor battlefield planning and organization from most of the battles shown in the series and movies so yeah I guess we could just discuss the raw war making ability of the two factions but since the Federation isn't really a war machine I don't see how they'd fair any better.

PS: Again. The only one being rude and insulting is you.

Deadshane wrote:again, No, all I'm saying is that you can vortex a planet OR virus it if you're looking to not harm the real estate. OR set ships phasers on Stun to make security forces jobs easy.

What I'm saying is that Ground Combat in either universe is a needless waste of time, effort, and lives. Ergo...obsolete. 40k doesnt recognise this.

If we're discussing the war marking ability of two sides as you seem to think, why would you throw out a perfectly valid tactic that is just ignored in the Star Trek universe? According to your argument we're free to throw out anything that doesn't make sense, so: Warp Travel, being impossible given the power generation of Star Fleet ships makes no sense so they can't go to warp. See what happens? Just because it doesn't make sense isn't grounds to throw the idea out. And you continue to ignore the points others make and restate the same things without any real rebuttal. We've pointed out that you can't occupy a planet with ships in orbit in either universe. The difference is that Star Trek puts more focus into space combat and as such has little ground forces leaving it weak on a side the Imperium is very strong in. Instead of simply disregarding this because you say it is "obsolete" with no reason given for why you should explain?

How can I occupy a planet without putting troops on the ground?

Very little in either universe makes much sense so if we start throwing things out based on how reasonable they are all we get is the Emperor and Kirk having a slap fight over the last human woman in existence... wait, that actually be kind of cool XD.

The last time the Emperor got into a slap fight over a woman he ended up being put on the golden throne.

And then that woman turns out to be a Q.
And laughs in both of their faces and walks away with Chuck Norris.

Sanctjud wrote:And then that woman turns out to be a Q.
And laughs in both of their faces and walks away with Chuck Norris.

Makes me laugh. That is something I'd see Q doing just for kicks too XD.

Orkeosaurus wrote:The last time the Emperor got into a slap fight over a woman he ended up being put on the golden throne.

Indeed. Sanguninius was very pretty

...

keezus wrote:-edit- As an engineer, this kind of fiction is an affront to my sensibilities, as short of using magic, this kind of power expenditure is not only infeasable at best, but downright ridiculous at worst. Talking matter / antimatter reactions being highly efficient, where the aforementioned 1.5kg of each only results in 65MT, you'd need 12.4 TONS each of matter / antimatter to achieve our one lance shot. Unfortunately, the Imperium doesn't use matter / antimatter reactors.

The Imperium uses fusion reactors - technology in its infancy now, so there is no way to accurately determine what would be needed for sustained lance fire. The energy needed is equivalent to 1% of our planetary reserves of U238 in fast fission reactors - If one assumes a 10x efficiency boost to fusion we're still talking insane infrastructure.

There is a reason why the Imperiums ships are so massive. And it's nothing to do with small epeen ;P It's to power those continent levelling pewpew beams.

Edit- MUAHAHAHA Ninjaquote!

GWAR: Just moved my -edit- to the previous quote.

It gets even better...

Imperial ships have shields right? So the void shields need to be able to repulse 0.5 Million Megaton shots. I'm not even going to go into how this is utterly slowed.

:( *shake fist* :(

What IS the ground combat capability of the Federation?
Do they have any armoured vehichled perse? Ones that could match up to a Leman Russ?

This is the ground combat capability of the Federation.

Their hand phasers are reputed to be able to vaporize 10 cubic meters of rock... but that's not remotely feasable.

It's called a Shuttle?

Is there some sort of energy or ammo in a phaser?
If you use it on a very high setting (as oppoesed to stun) will it run out of juice?

LordofHats wrote:
So your arguement is, that a photon torpedo can destroy things many times its size, so it could destroy the Death Star.......?

Did you even SEE Star Wars?


(your arguements are loaded with this sort of stuff btw, its why I keep jumping around)

Keezus is right. The energy requirements of most of the things in sci-fi are insane XD. Some people have actually tried to create workable theories on war travel but the calculated energy needed greatly exceeds the output of Star Trek ships, and most of these theories present assume solutions for unsolved problems like the Einstein Field. Even the way ships maneuver (barrel rolls, loop-de-loops and other fancy moves) in most science fiction is impossible doe to the nature of space.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
What IS the ground combat capability of the Federation?
Do they have any armoured vehichled perse? Ones that could match up to a Leman Russ?

They don't, which was kind of my point. No Star Trek race has ever really shown a size able ground force, the Federation having never showed signs of any to my knowledge. Those we've seen are usually completely unprotected and carry only small arms (Cardassians, Romulans, Klingons etc). I can't think of there ever being any mention of tanks or other armored vehicles in the series, though they could use shuttle craft as air support (I think there's a DS9 episode where they did that).

Is there some sort of energy or ammo in a phaser?
If you use it on a very high setting (as oppoesed to stun) will it run out of juice?

They have battaries but I think they recharge over time on their own. I do know you can overload a phaser and it'll blow up in your hand XD. That's a bad day right there.

No matter what it's not as awesome as the lasguns. So many uses other than killing.

It recharges by the campfire!!

______________

I would not want a phaser...I wouldn't be able to distinguish it from my cell phone...

Do we know what kind of fusion is being used on Imperial Ships? It's possible that it's a type of fusion that's far different from the kind we know. The largest Imperial battleships are usually old as hell too, probably with some serious Dark Age technology.

Dark Age technology is some pretty crazy stuff, probably beyond most of Star Trek's capabilities. (That's where humanity really came into it's own from a technological standpoint.) Just look at that Dark Angel guy's jetbike, or at vortex weaponry, or at some of the other things the AdMech keeps behind closed doors.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Dark Age technology is some pretty crazy stuff, probably beyond most of Star Trek's capabilities. (That's where humanity really came into it's own from a technological standpoint.) Just look at that Dark Angel guy's jetbike, or at vortex weaponry, or at some of the other things the AdMech keeps behind closed doors.

Soul Spear XD. A black hole in the palm of your hand... Though why the guy holding it doesn't get sucked in is a good question...

PS: The Death Star was destroyed by a Proton torpedo, not a Photon Torpedo. And It wasn't the torpedo that really did it it was the explosion in the exhaust port causing a chain reaction. I still don't see how you're draw the conclusion that a randomly shot Photon Torpedo would blow the Death Star to bits, or what relevance it has to the discussion of Imperium vs Star Fleet. See Straw-Man argument.

40k and Star Trek are completly different time period

Are there any really important planet surface buildings or bases of operation?

Would Imperial Assassins be useful, or is everything important to Starfleet... in space/space stations?

Sanctjud wrote:Are there any really important planet surface buildings or bases of operation?

Would Imperial Assassins be useful, or is everything important to Starfleet... in space/space stations?

Star Fleet has some ground based facilities (like on Earth) but a lot of their stuff seems to go on in really big orbiting space stations like Deep Space Nine. Assassin's could be useful I guess. Sneak them onto some ship, dock it with a space station and let them have a blast XD.

Callidus as Kirk...much lolcakes.

Kirk was killed at the age of 13. The unstoppable Kirk that trekkies know and love is actually a Callidus Assasin. (That's why the actor seems to change all the time!).

When the time comes, the Callidus will strike.

You gotta be pretty naive to think that the Federation doesnt have any ground forces to speak of.

...just because you dont hear much about them in a show about exploration.

(this whole arguement is being perpetuated by people that are just "making stuff up"...specially Lordhat)

you can cut the nerd rage in here with a small plastic butter knife

and my 10cents (because we have nothing smaller in Nz)

how would you phasers feel about a space marine ghost aka lost and the damned firehawks chapter? or send in a space hulk full of soul drinkers

or press the auto win button by sending in the pre heresy emperor lead imperial forces, with that I wouldnt care how strong the feds are when then entire might of mankind is back by twenty one (including the BIG E) and his 20 legions of super soldier psychos bearing down on the feds?

(I only did that because we are playing what if at the moment )

Hmmm, i remember an episode in Voyager.."Dragon's Teeth" was it?
About a uber race that got ganged up and hid underground in hybernation, they kept their military stuff underground...but I remember the most they showed off was their space ships making a mad dash to whatever corridor thingy of fast travelling....

Beerfart wrote:(this whole arguement is being perpetuated by people that are just "making stuff up"...specially Lordhat)

Ad Hominen FTW.

Maybe instead of insulting me you should prove me wrong?

Prove you wrong about what...all the garbage you're making up?

Sorry, don't have the time nor the inclination. It's easy enough to say however that since this is all BS (because its Science FICTION that we're talking about here) that nobody's proven themselves RIGHT about anything. Everything here is total conjecture. Why would one BOTHER to prove you wrong about stuff you're MAKING UP?

srs bsns

Beerfart wrote:Prove you wrong about what...all the garbage you're making up?

Sorry, don't have the time nor the inclination. It's easy enough to say however that since this is all BS (because its Science FICTION that we're talking about here) that nobody's proven themselves RIGHT about anything. Everything here is total conjecture. Why would one BOTHER to prove you wrong about stuff you're MAKING UP?

Why would you join a discussion merely to ambiguously insult someone? Tell me, what have I made up? I don't have a problem being wrong (some of us enjoy learning... ironically some of us enjoy learning about things with no practical applications )

Deadshane1 wrote:I'll tell you why 40k loses against Star Trek.

Because the security forces stand 25" away from the marine bolters. Also any vehicles stay at least 49" away from any lascannons.

but didnt you know the range on all of the Security forces guns are 12" and the tank drivers weapons are 36"

I can do this all day

INTERNET SPACESHIPS IS SRS BSNS! SO SAYETH LORD GWAR!

Back to ground forces, the federation has them there called Klingons, and Redshirts(gold shirts now) Secruity forces....
Also why would the federation develop phaser rifles if they didnt need ground forces....


But im going too start another topic now 40k vs the Rifts Systems look for it

Gwar! wrote:INTERNET SPACESHIPS IS SRS BSNS! SO SAYETH LORD GWAR!

all bows to Gwar the imacable

My god what have I done!despairs,despairs Such amount of nerd rage o my god!

it was exactly what you were looking for isn't it Ivan?

IvanTih wrote:My god what have I done!despairs,despairs Such amount of nerd rage o my god!

Nerd rage can be kind of entertaining in retrospect XD. Have you been to the Infinity Ward PC Boards? It's been highly entertaining me for weeks XD.

IvanTih wrote:My god what have I done!despairs,despairs Such amount of nerd rage o my god!

That was a joke Seven of Nine.Work on your sense of humor.
Angry marines will get their recruits.

nerd rage is helping with my hangover today while Im at work

StarGate wrote:Back to ground forces, the federation has them there called Klingons, and Redshirts(gold shirts now) Secruity forces....
Also why would the federation develop phaser rifles if they didnt need ground forces....


But im going too start another topic now 40k vs the Rifts Systems look for it

Please don't.. rifts is waaaaay to big and with each new book the power scope rises!

LordofHats wrote:PS: The Death Star was destroyed by a Proton torpedo, not a Photon Torpedo. And It wasn't the torpedo that really did it it was the explosion in the exhaust port causing a chain reaction. I still don't see how you're draw the conclusion that a randomly shot Photon Torpedo would blow the Death Star to bits.

Star Trek has these strange unheard of things (at least in Star Wars) known as "active scans" and "guided munitions" A photorp could easily fit down that 2m hole.

Seriously, Stewie said it best in the Family Guy Star Wars special... "Waiiiiit... isn't that kind of a serious design flaw?"

keezus wrote:

LordofHats wrote:PS: The Death Star was destroyed by a Proton torpedo, not a Photon Torpedo. And It wasn't the torpedo that really did it it was the explosion in the exhaust port causing a chain reaction. I still don't see how you're draw the conclusion that a randomly shot Photon Torpedo would blow the Death Star to bits.

Star Trek has these strange unheard of things (at least in Star Wars) known as "active scans" and "guided munitions" A photorp could easily fit down that 2m hole.

Seriously, Stewie said it best in the Family Guy Star Wars special... "Waiiiiit... isn't that kind of a serious design flaw?"

Well it's no bigger than a womp rat!

StarGate wrote: But im going too start another topic now 40k vs the Rifts Systems look for it

Don't do it... Rifts takes slowed magic-science to the Nth degree. Characters with HP in the MDC ranges. Personal armour with 1000's of MDC capacity. Hand guns that do D6x1000 MDC... SRSLY... Why won't you think of the children!

I love to say 40k would win but since both factions are Make believe so well never get a answer on anything like this (until somehow through movie magic that wb or the man Peter Jackson makes a movie 40k versus Star Trek final Reckoning)

Such a movie could be entertaining for its space battles. They'd show a bunch of Federation troops swooping around, firing torpedos and phasers, yelling commands, etc. Then they'd zoom out and you see they're poking an Imperial flahship that makes them look like gnats. You'd hear a voice,"Lord Admiral, the sensor operator reports multiple hits, but the chief tech-priest in the prow voild shield banks is adamant that we have recieved no damage."

They'd show a bunch of Federation troops yelling and charging, firing their phasers down a corridor at an unseen foe. The camera would pivot, showing a pair of Wolf Guard terminators calmly discussing the finer points of ale swigging as phasers bounce harmlessly of their armor.

They'd show a Federation captain looking at a platoon of captured Cadians (how the Federation managed this will never be known, and the scene will be widely regarded as one of the worst plot holes in cinematic history). The captain will calmly declare that the guardsman will be transported to a nearby planet for integration into Federation society. A week later, the same Federation captain will return to the planet, only to find that the integration was a disaster and that Commissar Yarrick is now the "acting planetary governor".

RustyKnight wrote:Such a movie could be entertaining for its space battles. They'd show a bunch of Federation troops swooping around, firing torpedos and phasers, yelling commands, etc. Then they'd zoom out and you see they're poking an Imperial flahship that makes them look like gnats. You'd hear a voice,"Lord Admiral, the sensor operator reports multiple hits, but the chief tech-priest in the prow voild shield banks is adamant that we have recieved no damage."

They'd show a bunch of Federation troops yelling and charging, firing their phasers down a corridor at an unseen foe. The camera would pivot, showing a pair of Wolf Guard terminators calmly discussing the finer points of ale swigging as phasers bounce harmlessly of their armor.

They'd show a Federation captain looking at a platoon of captured Cadians (how the Federation managed this will never be known, and the scene will be widely regarded as one of the worst plot holes in cinematic history). The captain will calmly declare that the guardsman will be transported to a nearby planet for integration into Federation society. A week later, the same Federation captain will return to the planet, only to find that the integration was a disaster and that Commissar Yarrick is now the "acting planetary governor".

Then the Space Wolf Terminators start to get annoyed and single handedly massiveness down to the last woman and child everyone aboard three or four Federation ships, just before Creed outflanks a Emperor Titan in Space behind a Borg Cube.

RustyKnight wrote:Such a movie could be entertaining for its space battles. They'd show a bunch of Federation troops swooping around, firing torpedos and phasers, yelling commands, etc. Then they'd zoom out and you see they're poking an Imperial flahship that makes them look like gnats. You'd hear a voice,"Lord Admiral, the sensor operator reports multiple hits, but the chief tech-priest in the prow voild shield banks is adamant that we have recieved no damage."

They'd show a bunch of Federation troops yelling and charging, firing their phasers down a corridor at an unseen foe. The camera would pivot, showing a pair of Wolf Guard terminators calmly discussing the finer points of ale swigging as phasers bounce harmlessly of their armor.

They'd show a Federation captain looking at a platoon of captured Cadians (how the Federation managed this will never be known, and the scene will be widely regarded as one of the worst plot holes in cinematic history). The captain will calmly declare that the guardsman will be transported to a nearby planet for integration into Federation society. A week later, the same Federation captain will return to the planet, only to find that the integration was a disaster and that Commissar Yarrick is now the "acting planetary governor".

You sir, are awesome.

This is the second if not the best thing I've seen come out of this thread (the Spock-Ork one a page or two back was pretty good I'm not sure which I find more entertaining ). Good show.

"And Creed was a master of tactics; a true genius in his field. So, it was the Lord Castellan that they chose to lead the reclamation of the false Terra. As his flagship approached the heretical mirage of Terra, Creed saw a Borg cube sliding into a defensive position. The captain of the Imperial vessle was stunned at the size of the box, but Creed was unimpressed. "Fear not, captain" he said, "for I have sent a mighty member of the adeptes titanicus to flank our foe." Lo and behold, as the Borg cube drifted closer, an Emperor titan was seen creeping along behind it. Just as the Borg cube prepard to fire, the entire cube shuddered violently before exploding into an uncountable mass of fragments. With a cheery wave, the mighy titan turned and began the baonbaonbardlement."

the imperium cannot lose this thread for we have Creed and baonbaonbardlement's even a thousand kirk spock hybrids could not stand up to that much win

"And then the Galactic Federation phased out."

Was that before or after they all lost their lascannons and stormbolters and mysteriously turned into Razorbacks?

Good thing it was only 5 penetrating hits from the sluggas.

Are we such nerds as to stoop to such a level as to compare startrek vs. starwars?

why not try something as bad, maybe stock car racing vs. drag racing, or which is better hockey, or football?

these kind of comparisons have no real basis as they are separate realities and the influences are so disparate that the two universes cannot be argued together strongly.

also, you asked this question on a forum with all 40k players, what do you think the answer would be?

Comparing a comparison of different scifi realities to sports? Who do you think you are, just jumping in here with your athletically egngaging ideas? I, for one, am the sort of nerd/ addict to not put up with these useless exertions of physicality.

Also, to make it all equivalent on all fronts, to your responsive question, I would say this: "Are we human, or are we gamer? If you cut us, don't we try to kep the blood off all of our non chaos-y models?" Quander this response to your quandary based on the original quandary, then come to your 40k senses and see that comparing such comparisons is like comparing a grox to a man.

the fact that you know what these four sports are is enough to get my point across.

If it is sci-fi/fantasy comparisons is what you want lets do that.

comparing star trek vs. 40k is like;

Middle Earth to Narnia
Dune to StarWars
I Robot to the Matrix
E.T. to Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind

I could go on....

the point i have is that these to universes are so different that an accurate comparison is not viable and thus not a good argument at all.

and then you never commented on the fact that this is a 40k board so the point of asking this question in the first place is moot.

If you don't like this thread, why post in it?

it isn't the fact of whether i like the thread or not, i am just commenting on the nature of such a thread when the answer is blatantly obvious,

take all the famous sci-fi genres that this happens to, startrek, starwars, and 40k (for us at least).

star trek has notoriously weak shielding technology and structural integrity for their starships, this alone will cause them to loose against a starwars or 40k war vessel of the same size, that is say the Enterprise - E one of the larger startrek ships up against even a frigate in 40k, or a corralian corvette in starwars. that is not to mention the shear power of both star wars and 40k to have easily repeatable world destroying measures, and don't cont genesis as that makes the world habitable again, exterminatus or the death star don't. this space battle alone is enough to swing the win to either side, but don't even get going on titans, space marines, at-at's, mass amounts of decently armoured storm troopers compared to the mostly foot based star-fleet infantry that rely extremly on their naval forces in orbit for support in those hairy situations (which by the way has just been annihilated in orbit).

so now for the remaining 2 genres, star wars vs 40k.

again lets take starwars (empire for ease of use) and 40k's (again we will focus on the imperium for ease of use) best warship that is not some monstrous floating moonsized thing (the rock or death star). so lets face off 2 of these monsters, an emperor class battle ship vs a star destroyer.

The star destroyer starts off at 1600 meters long, and from what i can tell the emperor class is around there as well (i could not find a stat list) the fighter wings are disproportionate, the emperor would win this one, it comes to shields verses none, and the fact of seeker missiles vs hand targeted laser for the tie fighters. when you look at raw speed and maneuverability the star destroyer wins but then in firepower the emperor wins with lance batteries, in shielding, i would say they are equivilent. this all come to a push to slight edge of the emperor class, now look at a full fleet action, there is a mixture of 40k vessels whereas the empire has a nasty habit of throwing a ton of star destroyers and a few interdictors (which are useless here), this fully focussed battle plan is their down fall, with a proper 40k imperial navy battle fleet facing a battle fleet of the empire the massive lance and torpedo salvo's being followed by shielded missile bearing small craft and the frigates out maneuvering the stardestroyers all day the empire (star wars) is in trouble, yes there will be 40k losses, but a fleet battle will surely end in 40k's favour.

on ground battle it will happen even harsher, the empire (starwars) lands it's troops and starts marching them forward, then the imperium (40k) lands it's troops, the difference is that of the say 20 star destroyers that makes for 18400 storm troopers and a good number of support such as at-at's, at-st's and the like, the problem is put an at-at against a titan and guess who wins the armaments alone say the one with a d-class weapon at extreme range will take the cake, then you have the imperial guard a typical regiment is over 50,000 soldiers, so they now outnumber the empire nearly 3-1. Now imagine if the space marines managed to bring a chapter, the empire's land zine is now peppered with drop pods disgorging walking behemoths intent on blood, the storm troopers are just screwed. now the worst is if there was an inquisitor aboard and the world in question was important or not, if a small agri world or some such i see it going something like this;

captain; inquisitor we have found the enemies beach head, what do you wish to do?

inquisitor; exterminatus, this new enemy must not be alowed to think they still have a chance to deafeat the great imperium of man.

so if star wars beats star trek and 40k beats star wars then 40k beats star trek as well.

those are my thoughts, i know i ramble, but i hope i made some sort of sence.

I just want to point out that RustyKnight has entirely deserved this...

I was wondering.Which was the fastest growing thread on dakka dakka?

LordofHats wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:Dark Age technology is some pretty crazy stuff, probably beyond most of Star Trek's capabilities. (That's where humanity really came into it's own from a technological standpoint.) Just look at that Dark Angel guy's jetbike, or at vortex weaponry, or at some of the other things the AdMech keeps behind closed doors.

Yeah that stuff is all behind Star Trek's tech- jetbikes? vortex grenades? really? What about genesis torpedoes? Or being able to travel through time and space with out a 50/50 chance of going to hell and getting your soul eaten by a deamon? Hahahah- do we play the same game?



PS: The Death Star was destroyed by a Proton torpedo, not a Photon Torpedo. And It wasn't the torpedo that really did it it was the explosion in the exhaust port causing a chain reaction. I still don't see how you're draw the conclusion that a randomly shot Photon Torpedo would blow the Death Star to bits, or what relevance it has to the discussion of Imperium vs Star Fleet. See Straw-Man argument.

Wow- where is "Failblog" when you need it-- you say there's no way a torpedo can kill the Deathstar- realized it was the most monumentaly wrong things you have said of all the wrong thins you have said then try to take it back with " wait there's an H instead of an R"- come on man- he got ya- let it go Indiana...

I like the arguement on how lasgun bolts- don't have a frequency- classic-
Also the "Star Wars ships are more structurly sound than Star Trek ships? Are you sure about that one? Watch Star Wars again (apparently you haven't in a while) a pay attention to how every large ship in the movie is destroyed by one hit- Death stars- Star destroyers- Superstar destroyers, ect are all killed by one hit- ( an A-wing to the command tower- an asteroid- you shoot the ball/water towers in the back- hahahah- I have seen the enterprize have a torpedo ram through the hull and still fight on- I have seen ships have the Nay-cells( spell) blown off and continue- you might want to do a couple of checks on these again. Now as far as Imperium ships? It is hard to say- they are extremely large and powerful- but I haven't read anything about them taking damage from things that weren't 40k weapons or Tyranid weapons- so I really can't say much about that.

Phasers aren't that powerful? Really cause they atomize you- your clothes- whatever you are holding, ect. what does a lasbolt do?
Space marine immune systems can stop borg implants? why? cause you say so? hahaha they can barely stop Tyranid implants- the few times they do.
At the end of this magic show of pull useless and unrealated info out of our butt show that is on here- I beleive that the one guy above was right where he said something to the effect that you can compare for just pure fun- but anything more than that is just kinda a waste because there is no middle ground- we have very few- if any of there technologies- where Star trek tries to ride the crest of our tech limits for sci fi fun- it can fail sometimes. And 40k doesn't even bother to try to explain most of the stuff it's tech can do because it doesn't make any or very little sense. They have tech but are scared of it- they know how their tech works one minute butdon't the next? "this is a rare plamsa gun or master crafted weapon- they are very few in number and are rarely seen- cost 5pts- available to anyone. I was waitong for the power weapon vs lightsaber arguement to pop out- "Hey silly! my ridiculously imaginary weapon CAN beat your ridiculously imaginary weapon!" can not- can too. Thnx for the entertainment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh- wait I saw this one too- That the Eldar only exist because they are good at hiding? That is just kinda silly- come on now- Can someone photoshop me an Eldar army with trees or mountains or any background that they would be good at hiding at with the light blues- neon greens-whites-purples? Maybe in a skittle factory? I know what he is saying but- that is too funny....

....and Lordofhats ignores TyranidTony's logical points made stating "Ad Hominim" or "Strawman" to make himself look versed in debate in...

3...2...1...

Yeah you gotta love it when people wiki or google jargon for arguing/debating for a SW vs ST post- wow! him is smarty!

Beerfart wrote:....and Lordofhats ignores TyranidTony's logical points made stating "Ad Hominim" or "Strawman" to make himself look versed in debate in...

3...2...1...

Hurray for hate the Hats day. Everyone gets a free Sombrero! (No really, I don't want them).

Again Beerfarts, is insulting all you're gonna do or do you actually have something to contribute? I can disagree with TyranidTony if I want but at least he contributes to the conversation.

Wow- where is "Failblog" when you need it-- you say there's no way a torpedo can kill the Deathstar- realized it was the most monumentaly wrong things you have said of all the wrong thins you have said then try to take it back with " wait there's an H instead of an R"- come on man- he got ya- let it go Indiana...

I didn't say a photon torpedo couldn't. I was wondering how he drew the conclusion it could from a proton torpedo doing it. Another poster came in and kind of fixed that if you look back a page I believe. See, some of us actually DO know how to argue logically (granted I doubt I'm very good at it. I review my own arguments and find faulty reasoning all the time), and saying "Proton torpedo destroyed Death Star so a Photon Torpedo could do it too" is in fact faulty logic because there is no argument present to connect the two together.

I actually attend a debate forum regularly, I have no need to "wiki" logical fallacies and I never use google or most search engines for that matter. Bing is as bad as the rest of them but those commercials are so true. The Library is faster XD. Although I do now wonder how complete their list is (I'd be surprised if they didn't have one). It is so hard to find a convenient list of the damn things online for reference.

Phasers aren't that powerful? Really cause they atomize you- your clothes- whatever you are holding, ect. what does a lasbolt do?

I suggest watching a few episodes of Star Trek. I believe there is one in the original series where the phaser failed to kill an alien life form (It was The Devil in the Darkl). I also believe species 8472 resisted phaser fire. Seeing as nothing in Star Trek can compare to power armor worn by space marines, I'm doubtful of the phasers ability to instant kill them as many people believe the all mighty phaser can. I'm sure it could punch through the armor eventually but would it be fast enough to kill the marine before they shot back at you?

Space marine immune systems can stop borg implants? why? cause you say so? hahaha they can barely stop Tyranid implants- the few times they do.

I don't remember anyone arguing this, though I've been sleeping for like, 8 hours? I'm usually groggy in the morning. Maybe I missed it?

You'll notice that Borg implants failed to assimilate species 8472 because that race had a very strong immune system. To argue that marines can't resist the implants because they can't resist Tyranid implants is faulty logic because Tyranid != Borg (Though they certainly seem to fill similar roles in their universes). There's precedent for a life form resisting implantation with a strong immune system. Is the marine's strong enough? I don't know. That's getting too detailed even for me and I love details XD.

At the end of this magic show of pull useless and unrealated info out of our butt show that is on here- I beleive that the one guy above was right where he said something to the effect that you can compare for just pure fun- but anything more than that is just kinda a waste because there is no middle ground- we have very few- if any of there technologies- where Star trek tries to ride the crest of our tech limits for sci fi fun- it can fail sometimes. And 40k doesn't even bother to try to explain most of the stuff it's tech can do because it doesn't make any or very little sense. They have tech but are scared of it- they know how their tech works one minute butdon't the next? "this is a rare plamsa gun or master crafted weapon- they are very few in number and are rarely seen- cost 5pts- available to anyone. I was waitong for the power weapon vs lightsaber arguement to pop out- "Hey silly! my ridiculously imaginary weapon CAN beat your ridiculously imaginary weapon!" can not- can too. Thnx for the entertainment.

Why is it that when I said this on like, page 1 and again on page 2 or 3, no one cared ?

Oh- wait I saw this one too- That the Eldar only exist because they are good at hiding? That is just kinda silly- come on now- Can someone photoshop me an Eldar army with trees or mountains or any background that they would be good at hiding at with the light blues- neon greens-whites-purples? Maybe in a skittle factory? I know what he is saying but- that is too funny....

Not what I argued. Someone said they survived because of superior technology. I argued that to assume they exist in a bubble of technological superiority minus all other factors of the 40k universe was false (That would be a funny picture though, I want a copy if I may).

Beerfart wrote:....and Lordofhats ignores TyranidTony's logical points made stating "Ad Hominim" or "Strawman" to make himself look versed in debate in...

3...2...1...

'Poisoning the well', you've committed a logical fallacy.

It would take some sort of tactical genius to sneak in this many personal attacks without alerting the mods...

Want me to participate? Your wish is my command...

LordofHats wrote:
I actually attend a debate forum regularly, I have no need to "wiki" logical fallacies and I never use google or most search engines for that matter. Bing is as bad as the rest of them but those commercials are so true. The Library is faster XD. Although I do now wonder how complete their list is (I'd be surprised if they didn't have one). It is so hard to find a convenient list of the damn things online for reference.

Who cares?

Phasers aren't that powerful? Really cause they atomize you- your clothes- whatever you are holding, ect. what does a lasbolt do?

I suggest watching a few episodes of Star Trek.

What? Like "Man Trap", "What are little girls made of", "Mirror Mirror", "Friday's Child", "A private little war", "Requiem for Methuselah", these must not be episodes of star trek since each one features disintigration by phaser. I could go on with examples in movies and/or other 'Trek series, but the point is made. I dont think you see lasguns doing this sort of damage.

I believe there is one in the original series where the phaser failed to kill an alien life form (I'll find the episodes name and edit it in, I haven't memorized them all). I also believe species 8472 resisted phaser fire.

so there are a couple of species resistant to phaser fire? So what? How does the species in "operation:Annihilate" not being disintigrated because of the species' particular biology have anything even REMOTELY to do with marines in power armour not being disintigrated? Pretty much every single time a humanoid is killed in TOS with a phaser....it vanishes....If anything THAT sets more of a precedent. I wont stand by that "evidence" though....I'm not making stuff up.

Seeing as nothing in Star Trek can compare to power armor worn by space marines,

How do you come to THIS conclusion? Oh right, you made it up, ok...go on...

Space marine immune systems can stop borg implants? why? cause you say so? hahaha they can barely stop Tyranid implants- the few times they do.

I don't remember anyone arguing this, though I've been sleeping for like, 8 hours? I'm usually groggy in the morning. Maybe I missed it?

You'll notice that Borg implants failed to assimilate species 8472 because that race had a very strong immune system. To argue that marines can't resist the implants because they can't resist Tyranid implants is faulty logic because Tyranid != Borg (Though they certainly seem to fill similar roles in their universes). There's precedent for a life form resisting implantation with a strong immune system. Is the marine's strong enough? I don't know. That's getting too detailed even for me and I love details XD.

Nobody knows this, to make claims of ANY kind is "making Sh!t up".

ahh nerd rage in its purest form the I can feel the routes of so called logic each side is using to the other

but since this is a 40k forum I gotta go with the crowd (hell who am I kidding 40k 4thw) and in the end until we see a novel where the owners of the ip's for 40k and star trek go lets shut these buggers up once and for all and either say hey this is what would happen or

A: they write a series of books
B: do a marvel meets dc style short story/comic book to show what would happen
C: as I have said before the man himself Peter Jackson does a epic trilogy showing you on the big screen the out come of said debate

now flame away :

On the Star Trek Forums I'm sure they're having the exact same arguements with guys from both camps. "Making stuff up" along the way as well.

However...over there, Star Trek reigns supreme.

Go figure.

Michael Bay has to direct any 40k/ST crossover.

It will be the only move he has made where the explosion:smaller explosion Ratio is correct

Gwar! wrote:Michael Bay has to direct any 40k/ST crossover.

It will be the only move he has made where the explosion:smaller explosion Ratio is correct

In Michael Bay's movie, Data's cat Spot gets humped by a squig for a comedy releif! Isnt that FUNNY!?

Bay has such a grand sense of humour.

And then Data turns into Megatron!

Yep, can't wait to see Bay's "vision" of the movie.

(....so I can puke)

If Michael Bay is able to sell his movies....I should be able to poop on a paper plate and sell it to SOMEONE in Hollywood.

and if the posters from both forums where in the same room it would be a room full of mirrors lol

or the internet would be dead silent as there would be no one screaming mine fantasy reality is better than yours because I say so and if you say any thing different your a

but then we are all civil people really arent we

and since its all in fun and we arent taking low blows

how about this..... everyone posting on topics like this should jusy bombard the owner of the ip's to give a ruling on said subject and pray to get a answer from them in the next 20 years

or possibly start a bit of a war between the two companys lol

Gw: the imperium would waste those puny federation dogs
St owners(sorry im not a trekkie): pfft we have kirk and warp drives and other fancy dodaades the federation would pone your imperium every way to whykickamoocow and back

(for all we know they may already be doing this behind closed doors in suits with wiffle bats) what I wouldn't pay to see that

Beerfart wrote:Who cares?

Obviously you do, as you keep bringing it up.

Phasers aren't that powerful? Really cause they atomize you- your clothes- whatever you are holding, ect. what does a lasbolt do?

What? Like "Man Trap", "What are little girls made of", "Mirror Mirror", "Friday's Child", "A private little war", "Requiem for Methuselah", these must not be episodes of star trek since each one features disintigration by phaser. I could go on with examples in movies and/or other 'Trek series, but the point is made. I dont think you see lasguns doing this sort of damage.

Where did I claim a lasgun could do it? I ask the practical difference between the weapon. You point and shoot. Assuming the Guard and Star Fleet would take cover, we end up in a typical fire fight, and include the fact we've never seen hide nor hair of any armor in the Star Trek universe, we have to wonder if they have any while we know the Imperial Guard has an abundance of such things.

so there are a couple of species resistant to phaser fire? So what? How does the species in "operation:Annihilate" not being disintigrated because of the species' particular biology have anything even REMOTELY to do with marines in power armour not being disintigrated? Pretty much every single time a humanoid is killed in TOS with a phaser....it vanishes....If anything THAT sets more of a precedent. I wont stand by that "evidence" though....I'm not making stuff up.

Because it leaves us to question whether it would work. There are species that resist the phaser because of their make up. In many episodes where a phaser is used to cut through rock the phaser doesn't disintegrate it snap of a finger, but rather spend hours burrowing through it. Also notice how phaser fire from Star Ships doesn't "disintegrates" the enemy's ships. This suggests that the material being fired at and the size of the object matter in whether it can be disintegrated, creating an unknown.

And so what, Star Trek ended at TOS? TNG, DS9, and Voyager never happened?

How do you come to THIS conclusion? Oh right, you made it up, ok...go on...

I made that up? Have you ever seen anything in Star Trek remotely comparable to power armor? Any hint that such things exist in the Star Trek universe? The answer is no. It's never been pointed to, hinted at, or referenced in any Star Trek canon media, which leaves us with the question of does it exist in Star Trek? We've seen Star Fleet combat teams wearing nothing but their uniforms even in boarding actions. None of the infantry forces of other races seem to wear any including Cardassians, Klingons, Romulans, and even the Hirogen. Though the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, the fact we've never seen anything like power armor used even in situation where it seems appropriate points towards Star Trek races not using any. I have no doubt they have the capacity to make it were they so inclined, but the races of Star Trek seem to focus so much on their ships that ground combat seems to be some kind of after thought to them.

I even did a quick search of both Memory Alpha and Memory Beta, and there is no appearance of the words "Power Armor" in any either of them. I can't think I've ever seen any or even heard the words muttered, so I don't think it's "made up" to take the ground they don't exist in Star Trek. I've gone over the Hirogen because I remember them having some kind of suit, but it's hardly power armor.

Nobody knows this, to make claims of ANY kind is "making Sh!t up"?

Watch the Voyager episodes again. It's outright stated that their immune system attacks any foreign body including Borg assimilation. It can also be used as a weapon, or I suppose I made that part up too? I didn't make it up, it's in the episodes. Either where they first appeared In season 3 or 4 I think it was, or that one where 8472 randomly comes back a season or so later in another episode.

Bay has such a grand sense of humour.

He does. I prefer it to typical American slap stick comedy. It would be his kind of movie too. Lots of opportunity for explosions. EDIT: Although the film would probably be riddled with plot holes. I remember an article on Transformers and the sequel and the writer just tore into it pointing out a multitude of plot holes in both films, and looking back, his movies usually are filled with holes.

LordofHats wrote:

Beerfart wrote:Who cares?

Obviously you do, as you keep bringing it up.

sorry I think lordofhats got you on the technicality

Reply by: TyranidTony - click to view full reply 

3757

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 20:25:22

Post by: TyranidTony

I always love the bistanders that have nothing to contribute yet speak as though they are above the the nerd talk...good times. Anywho- I think we may be missing the point then on the torpedo thang- In all honesty- it is a chain reaction started by the torpedo that does the big base- in so in the end it is irrelavent-probably.
I am pretty sure the phasers disintegrated pretty much anything organic- with a few exceptions. Therefore - I believe it would wipe out the spacemarine- I have no idea what it would or wouldn't do to the termy armor/ What is it made of? plasteel and adamantium? hahaah what?
As far as the tech- I think Trek has 40k beat all to hell- 40k tech tends to almost be magic to them where Trek tech- they are so good with it they will modify it on the spot for their needs.
The main problem I see is the sheer numbers and sacrifice that the Imperium can bring to the fight- that would be something that the Federation may not even understand- billions ofreligious zealots aren't something
I have seen the Fed fight before...at least not like that. They tend to be diplomatic about things- in which case it is hard to guess exactly what the Imperium of man would say- it would be easy to say that they would fight the Federation because of their lack of faith in the Emperor- but who knows...?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Upon thinking about it more- it would be funny to see how they DID work in 40k- Would the Eldar get over their hate on for humans by seeing these more civilized counterparts? I could easily see the slave race Tau working together as long as the Ethereals were cool with their goals. I would be afraid of introducing the romulans to the dark Eldar or the Klingons to the Orks- or it may end up that "there is only war" once they find kindred spirits there- hahah

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

9708

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 20:31:55

Post by: Orkeosaurus

TyranidTony wrote:I am pretty sure the phasers disintegrated pretty much anything organic- with a few exceptions. Therefore - I believe it would wipe out the spacemarine

A naked one?

Reply by: LordofHats - click to view full reply 

21720

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 20:34:54

Post by: LordofHats

TyranidTony wrote:I am pretty sure the phasers disintegrated pretty much anything organic- with a few exceptions. Therefore - I believe it would wipe out the spacemarine- I have no idea what it would or wouldn't do to the termy armor/ What is it made of? plasteel and adamantium? hahaah what?

That's what I'm saying. I have no doubt a phaser would work on Guard, as there really isn't a difference between the Guard and the military forces seen in Star Trek minus the combined arms aspect. Space Marine armor is made of Ceramite, though how close this is to the kind of ceramite that make teeth I don't know. Their armor seems to be capable of taking quite a beating and they've shrugged off hits from other kinds of energy weapons before, so I'm assuming its some kind of special material. That's the unknown, whether the armor can or cannot be penetrated by a phaser and how quickly a phaser could do it.

The main problem I see is the sheer numbers and sacrifice that the Imperium can bring to the fight- that would be something that the Federation may not even understand- billions ofreligious zealots aren't something
I have seen the Fed fight before...at least not like that. They tend to be diplomatic about things- in which case it is hard to guess exactly what the Imperium of man would say- it would be easy to say that they would fight the Federation because of their lack of faith in the Emperor- but who knows...?

This.

Reply by: TyranidTony - click to view full reply 

3757

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 20:44:00

Post by: TyranidTony

I would also prefer it if Bay- made no more movies- ever Transformers were a favorite of mine until he destroyed them recently- thnx again Bay. The absoulte worst movie I have seen in years...TF2.

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

9708

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 20:44:56

Post by: Orkeosaurus

I still think it's likely they wouldn't fight if the Imperium was still in their own galaxy. They really can't afford to pick fights with other humans when they have Orks and Tyranids and such bearing down on them, not to mention a galaxy filled with assorted other aliens showing up next door.

I bet the Federation would be willing to follow the Emperor of Man if things got bad, but since he's infirm at the moment that ship has probably sailed. Still, they would probably just leave each other alone, maybe with the Imperium sending out a small contingent to try and get them to submit to their rule (which would probably end with them being repulsed or calling some sort of truce, since it's both a much smaller attacking force and they wouldn't want to go scorched planet).

Reply by: Beerfart - click to view full reply 

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40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 20:45:47

Post by: Beerfart

LordofHats wrote:
Where did I claim a lasgun could do it? I ask the practical difference between the weapon. You point and shoot. Assuming the Guard and Star Fleet would take cover, we end up in a typical fire fight, and include the fact we've never seen hide nor hair of any armor in the Star Trek universe, we have to wonder if they have any while we know the Imperial Guard has an abundance of such things.

http://www.trekcore.com/specials/albums/rare/article6/assasin.jpg

Immune to bolter and lasgun fire....because I say so.

Because it leaves us to question whether it would work.

Why? A mysterious unknown species isnt effected by phaser fire so you say there is reasonable evidence to think that power armour may not be disintigrated by a high-energy weapon despite the fact that hormagaunts can sometimes punch thru it? I dont follow your line of reasoning.

I made that up? Have you ever seen anything in Star Trek remotely comparable to power armor?

...proof against bolters and lasguns because I think so. Because...well...they've got sheilds or something.

Watch the Voyager episodes again. It's outright stated that their immune system attacks any foreign body including Borg assimilation. It can also be used as a weapon, or I suppose I made that part up too? I didn't make it up, it's in the episodes. Either where they first appeared In season 3 or 4 I think it was, or that one where 8472 randomly comes back a season or so later in another episode.

...but says nothing at all about Marine immune systems right? ....thats what I thought....you're making stuff up.

Look, no offense but your whole arguement is based on opinion and guesswork. Not even educated guesses....because you know NOTHING about the systems, mechanical and bio, involved...none of us do.

Lastly, there is ABSOLUTLY no evidence to be able to compare the things we're talking about from each universe against each other.

Reply by: TyranidTony - click to view full reply 

3757

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 20:47:28

Post by: TyranidTony

Yeah -so you can kill all the sergeants you want since they never wear helmets- haha


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I almost want to use my knowledge of Dark Heresy to compare them- but it is off on a lot of things...

Reply by: crazykiwi - click to view full reply 

18922

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 20:55:39

Post by: crazykiwi

ok then I will post something Benificial then lol ( depends on your view on the argument.discusion)


from the st argument (which as many a 40k fan seems to give rebuttal with power armour but we will ignore pa for the moment)
say the phasers do kill a marine out right and the imperium starts to lose (this is a if in my books btw but well play it as a example)
what will a phaser do to the imperiums more ghostly allies ie the legend of the damned seeing as when things start going badly for there brothers they seem to show up

what about scouts with sniper rifles picking off all the red shirts leaving only the more important shirt colours remaining

and what about suicide ships crashing into the feds ships (not just for gaks and giggles) there have been black libary books (sorry im going by memory) but I believe the imp navy did it during the hh to stall horus from getting to terra

what would fed's do about such a brazen move on the imperials part

and boarding actions by the feds on a imperial ship would be a massacre but vice versa the imperials would win by basically butchering the crews of the ships (its one of the many things marines termis and even storm troopers would lol at the feds for trying to attempt phasers or not)

smaller armies can beat larger ones with tactics but not as big as the imperium or the tau who are more advanced than the imperium and smaller than them with weaker armour and better guns would have beaten humanity long ago

actually this now that I think about it would be the best way of looking at it in my opinion tau = feds

Reply by: LordofHats - click to view full reply 

21720

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 21:13:12

Post by: LordofHats

Beerfart wrote:http://www.trekcore.com/specials/albums/rare/article6/assasin.jpg

Immune to bolter and lasgun fire....because I say so.

Maybe it's just me but I get an error from the link. More so, what does that have to do with anything? I've done nothing "because I say so." I've referenced events, episodes, and source material.

Why? A mysterious unknown species isnt effected by phaser fire so you say there is reasonable evidence to think that power armour may not be disintigrated by a high-energy weapon despite the fact that hormagaunts can sometimes punch thru it? I dont follow your line of reasoning.

I always have been bad at explaining things. My point is that there are some materials and things Phaser don't work as well on. The ceramite armor of space marines has endured hits from energy attacks before various times, so I have to wonder if the phaser would be able to bunch through when the phaser itself seems to have a harder time when hitting certain materials.

...proof against bolters and lasguns because I think so. Because...well...they've got sheilds or something.

There's a difference between a space suit and power armor my friend. The closest I've found is the Hirogen body armor, but it's less power and more armor and the material its made of doesn't seem particularly strong.

...but says nothing at all about Marine immune systems right? ....thats what I thought....you're making stuff up.

Wrong. Marines have an enhanced immune system via their implants. I believe sparse details to be in Codex: Space Marines with some expansions in various book series. I know for a fact it is addressed briefly in Soul Drinker, but there are other books that address this too but I'd have to go through my collection to find specific ones. I doubt it's anything as strong as 8472, but it could or could not be strong enough to resist Borg assimilation. That's why I use the terms unknown in both cases. We don't know what could happen, it could go either way.

Look, no offense but your whole arguement is based on opinion and guesswork. Not even educated guesses....because you know NOTHING about the systems, mechanical and bio, involved...none of us do.

We in fact do. There is a massive amount of Canon material on 40k, and though more sparse, we get plenty of details on Star Trek by analyzing the episodes (yeah... I have that much free time... That and I procrastinate. I should be doing a homework assignment right now, but I really really hate assembly language). There is some guesswork involved yes, but we can make guesses based on what we know.

As for opinion, I certainly favor 40k, so yeah maybe that does factor into how I see it. But I don't think the whole argument is baseless enough to be thrown out based on my personal bias.

Lastly, there is ABSOLUTLY no evidence to be able to compare the things we're talking about from each universe against each other.

Again. I said this pages ago XD. The two don't stack well against each other because of drastic differences in presentation. It can still be fun though. A space fight between the Imperium and Star Fleet would be awesome regardless of the outcome.

As a side note and to get this back to the funner silly stuff, what would you put in the profile for Star Trek characters?

Captain Kirk
All his stats are 0 and he has 2 wounds. Kirk has two special abilities.

Bring me your Women: All female characters on the field must enter base to base contact with Kirk, and cannot leave it for any reason so long as Kirk lives. They cannot attack kirk. If they cannot touch Kirk's base they must be placed as close to Kirk as possible in base contact with a unit in base contact with Kirk.

Expendable: If Kirk is fired upon, you may select another unit in your armor with at least 1 wound and use him as a red shirt.

Reply by: crazykiwi - click to view full reply 

18922

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 21:14:35

Post by: crazykiwi

and we all know what a bolter does to a t shirt now dont we ?

chainswords and flesh?

Flamers?
Plasma?
heck lasguns on shirts would still kill

because to bring in the phaser debate im guessing you need to be around the corner from someone to use it not half a mile away

so your in stabbing and bolter distance and remmember marines + walls = hole where wall was

so cover wouldn't save a trekie for too long would it ?

Reply by: Gwar! - click to view full reply 

12265

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 21:20:07

Post by: Gwar!

You all fail to realise that Marines can just teleport Terminators there, blow a hole in the wall and let everything die :p

Reply by: Emperors Faithful - click to view full reply 

15667

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 21:20:17

Post by: Emperors Faithful

Good. Gooood! Let the Nerdrage FLOW through you...

I just want to add that Spehs Marines are 1000 times hardier and balsier than Kirk. Kickass boarding actions would rule the day.

As for the Marines immune system, it is pointed out to be very strong. VERY strong.

Reply by: IvanTih - click to view full reply 

20700

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 21:22:13

Post by: IvanTih

Warhammer 40k's plasma weapons are much more powerful than Trek's plasma weapon.Marines have faster reflexes than normal humans and while the greyshirts are trying to click on phaser they already have bolt in their head.

Reply by: Emperors Faithful - click to view full reply 

15667

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 21:24:09

Post by: Emperors Faithful

True. And without armour a bolt round ANYWHERE (even in the wall or ground right next to them) is going to kill them.

Of course, Trek plasma weapons aren't known to blow up.

Reply by: IvanTih - click to view full reply 

20700

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 21:27:33

Post by: IvanTih

If terminator suits can survive inside plasma reactors why can't they stand against phasers.

Reply by: Emperors Faithful - click to view full reply 

15667

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 21:29:16

Post by: Emperors Faithful

That makes sense. Wouldn't a phaser act more like a hot-shot lasgun/pistol?

Reply by: crazykiwi - click to view full reply 

18922

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 21:29:17

Post by: crazykiwi

IvanTih wrote:If terminator suits can survive inside plasma reactors why can't they stand against phasers.

because the trekie side of this debate says they cant

Reply by: IvanTih - click to view full reply 

20700

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 21:31:21

Post by: IvanTih

The trekkies.Bring on the dreadnought with autocannon.

Reply by: crazykiwi - click to view full reply 

18922

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 21:36:35

Post by: crazykiwi

yeah what would they do if a dreadnought rocked up to one phaser it doubt it would destroy or stun the dread
beat it in hand to hand we have a add for that for tui beer the slogan is yea right (might have to photoshop one tonight just for this occasion)

my comment on the feds being comparable to tau for there stats still stands as far as im concerned


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yeah what would they do if a dreadnought rocked up to one phaser it doubt it would destroy or stun the dread
beat it in hand to hand we have a add for that for tui beer the slogan is yea right (might have to photoshop one tonight just for this occasion)

my comment on the feds being comparable to tau for there stats still stands as far as im concerned

Reply by: TyranidTony - click to view full reply 

3757

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 21:38:37

Post by: TyranidTony

What are Mandalorkians? you take- Mandalors = stupid and Orks= stupid and mixthem into something cool- hmm don't think it would work...
Also you forgot about Khan- who is cooler than all of 40k combined-

Reply by: IvanTih - click to view full reply 

20700

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 21:41:25

Post by: IvanTih

Even in death I still got served

Reply by: Emperors Faithful - click to view full reply 

15667

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 21:42:29

Post by: Emperors Faithful

Apart from of course...>_>...<_<...a certain tactical geniu-CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!!!

So is there ANY area where phasers have little to no affect? (There must be or else a stray shot would go right through a planet.)

Reply by: IvanTih - click to view full reply 

20700

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 21:44:31

Post by: IvanTih

Void shields or alpha-plus psyker blocking the phaser with his powers.

Reply by: crazykiwi - click to view full reply 

18922

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 21:47:22

Post by: crazykiwi

or a Invunerable save, (or aim)

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

9708

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 21:48:42

Post by: Orkeosaurus

TyranidTony wrote:What are Mandalorkians? you take- Mandalors = stupid and Orks= stupid and mixthem into something cool- hmm don't think it would work...

You best be joking.



+



=

Reply by: TyranidTony - click to view full reply 

3757

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 21:48:57

Post by: TyranidTony

GAain the problem is we don't know what ST has for an army- or for ground forces... They must have something- but the show is about exploration- so that is what we see. I find it hard to believe that the Borg, Romulans, Klingons, ect...were all repelled from attacking earth directly by the enterprise A-E or whatever and a couple of exploration vessels? They would have to have some kind of defense- I honestly don't know what they have though- I am not the big trekkie-

Reply by: 1hadhq - click to view full reply 

6838

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 21:53:00

Post by: 1hadhq

TyranidTony wrote:.
Also you forgot about Khan- who is cooler than all of 40k combined-

The only cool khan belongs to 40k.....

Sorry to disturb here, but its unlikely a "peaceful flower pickin and cant hit a house with a hundred shots" type of force (trekkieversum) has any chance against the grimdark of darkness that is eternal war ( 40k) .




Nice comic, IvanTih

Reply by: TyranidTony - click to view full reply 

3757

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 21:53:10

Post by: TyranidTony

Please don't lose the little respect I have for you by telling me you are a Fett fan? Please- don't- I could start a whole 'nother thread on that waste of time...nevermind I quit- hahaha. Mandalors? I am done...

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

9708

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 21:54:25

Post by: Orkeosaurus

Having respect for me was a bad move, you're lucky I intervened.

Reply by: crazykiwi - click to view full reply 

18922

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 21:58:31

Post by: crazykiwi

The problem with a thread like this it needs to be done on a neutral forum where the site is not biased to either 40k star wars or Star Trek

hmm where can we post with a large neutral networking site ????

hmmm wonder wonder

Reply by: IvanTih - click to view full reply 

20700

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 21:59:11

Post by: IvanTih

Facebook


Automatically Appended Next Post:

crazykiwi wrote:The problem with a thread like this it needs to be done on a neutral forum where the site is not biased to either 40k star wars or Star Trek

hmm where can we post with a large neutral networking site ????

hmmm wonder wonder

Facebook

Reply by: Beerfart - click to view full reply 

8756

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 21:59:43

Post by: Beerfart

Yea, Boba Fett was SOOO cool, he did all of....nothing.

Watched Vader freeze Han.

Pushed Han onto 'Slave I'.

"fought" (*snicker*) Luke.

Made the Sarlacc burp.

What a douche.

Reply by: TyranidTony - click to view full reply 

3757

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 22:01:29

Post by: TyranidTony

Which has the cooler quote... Khan?- "He tasks me. He tasks me and I shall have him! I'll chase him 'round the moons of Nibia and 'round the Antares Maelstrom and 'round Perdition's flames before I give him up!"-"On Earth, two hundred years ago, I was a prince with power over millions..." or Boba Fett-"?" Oh wait he didn't say ANYTHING COOL- that's right...

Reply by: Raxmei - click to view full reply 

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40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 22:03:12

Post by: Raxmei

Emperors Faithful wrote:Apart from of course...>_>...<_<...a certain tactical geniu-CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!!!

So is there ANY area where phasers have little to no affect? (There must be or else a stray shot would go right through a planet.)

Depending on power setting they can be blocked by rocks and packing crates. Some living things, including a few humanoids, are immune to the stun setting and and can take a troublesome amount of fire from hand phasers on the kill setting. On power settings used for vaporizing things some materials are harder to cut through than others, and those are about the ones you'd expect - rocks are harder to vaporize than people and armor plates are even harder. There's an episode of DS9 showing characters taking all day trying to cut through a metal plate with hand phasers. Shields and force fields can also resist phasers depending on their relative power levels. With shipboard phasers it's about the same thing, though obviously with much more power behind them. It's a bit more complicated than simply phasers disintegrate things.

Reply by: LordofHats - click to view full reply 

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40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 22:03:45

Post by: LordofHats

Yeah. Sadly Boba didn't do much in the movies but look like a chump. He's okay in EU, but I've lost all faith in EU since they killed my favorite characters and continue to focus on folks who must be in their 60's. Jango was cooler. He actually got screen time.

Reply by: IvanTih - click to view full reply 

20700

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 22:03:46

Post by: IvanTih

Ha my plan has succeded.The huge amount of nerd rage will cure the blood angels of their black rage.

Reply by: Gwar! - click to view full reply 

12265

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 22:04:32

Post by: Gwar!

Kharn is cooler:

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

9708

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 22:07:07

Post by: Orkeosaurus

Beerfart wrote:Yea, Boba Fett was SOOO cool, he did all of....nothing.

Watched Vader freeze Han.

Pushed Han onto 'Slave I'.

"fought" (*snicker*) Luke.

Made the Sarlacc burp.

What a douche.

Yeah, but I had a toy Boba Fett, and he could shoot plastic missiles and had expanding machine-gun wings.

So he's cool.

Reply by: IvanTih - click to view full reply 

20700

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 22:07:34

Post by: IvanTih

Gwar! wrote:Kharn is cooler:

Nah bring the grimdark the Kharn killed 3k people in one battle.

Reply by: Beerfart - click to view full reply 

8756

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 22:14:01

Post by: Beerfart

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Beerfart wrote:Yea, Boba Fett was SOOO cool, he did all of....nothing.

Watched Vader freeze Han.

Pushed Han onto 'Slave I'.

"fought" (*snicker*) Luke.

Made the Sarlacc burp.

What a douche.

Yeah, but I had a toy Boba Fett, and he could shoot plastic missiles and had expanding machine-gun wings.

So he's cool.

You're right the action figure was cool, I remember him sitting in my action figure case doing the same thing he did in the movie....nothing.

One great thing about the action figure though, at least Boba Fett was somebody that the Jawa action figures could pick on and make fun of.

Reply by: TyranidTony - click to view full reply 

3757

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 22:14:23

Post by: TyranidTony

Well he does say Maim, burn, kill- that's three words more than Boba Scat- er Fett.


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Man- now I am torn- Do I risk this forum getting locked by drailing this thread into how much Boba Fett sucks- or Do I stay on track and try to fight 40k vs anything on a 40k forum---hahahah wow....what to do?
Ah- Hell with it- Boba Fett sucks and I will tell you why...The only thing he did that was remotely cool- was find the Millenium Falcon in the trash- apparently he was looking for some more flair for his armor-

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

9708

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 22:18:59

Post by: Orkeosaurus

How about flying? And having a cool helmet?

Those things are cool.

Reply by: crazykiwi - click to view full reply 

18922

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 22:21:00

Post by: crazykiwi

Stay on topic Dakkaites

Reply by: IvanTih - click to view full reply 

20700

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 22:21:38

Post by: IvanTih

Orkeosaurus wrote:How about flying? And having a cool helmet?

Those things are cool.

Marine have jump packs and helmets.

Reply by: TyranidTony - click to view full reply 

3757

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 22:23:28

Post by: TyranidTony

Yeah I think there was someone else that had a helmet and flew---hmmm who wasit----Oh yeah! The Rocketter- You got me- I will admitt he is as cool as The Rocketter...man- ya got me...


"Fraid' I don't know any crazywiki-Sir!"

Reply by: Deadshane1 - click to view full reply 

4395

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 22:23:57

Post by: Deadshane1

TyranidTony wrote:The only thing he did that was remotely cool- was find the Millenium Falcon in the trash- apparently he was looking for some more flair for his armor-

I always imagined he was digging thru there looking for dinner like any other homeless bounty hunter.

Reply by: TyranidTony - click to view full reply 

3757

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 22:29:45

Post by: TyranidTony

http://readandreact.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/ig-88.jpg

Yeah this guy is his competiotion for best bounty hunter? No wonder he is held in such high reguard- this guy looks like something Han would work on the Falcon with.....HAHAHAH

Reply by: Deadshane1 - click to view full reply 

4395

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 22:32:19

Post by: Deadshane1

NO no no no, thats not it, bring me the Hydro-Spanner.

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

9708

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 22:35:19

Post by: Orkeosaurus

TyranidTony wrote:Yeah I think there was someone else that had a helmet and flew---hmmm who wasit----Oh yeah! The Rocketter- You got me- I will admitt he is as cool as The Rocketter...man- ya got me...

Who the feth is The Rocketter???

Reply by: IvanTih - click to view full reply 

20700

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 22:37:59

Post by: IvanTih

This thread isn't about Boba Fett and Star Wars.

Reply by: crazykiwi - click to view full reply 

18922

40k vs star trek,the good and bad sides of both universes. @ 2009/11/14 22:38:33

Post by: crazykiwi

"Fraid' I don't know any crazywiki-Sir!"

wiki yes sir no

Imagine- Boba Fett - but he is cooler- and get chicks...

IvanTih wrote:This thread isn't about Boba Fett and Star Wars.

No, its about Star Trek vs. 40k, but if the past nine pages are any indication....thats gay.

If you mean The Rocketeer (), then I agree, he's very cool.

This thread WAS about 40k vs Star Trek- it has been transformed- into Is Boba Fett overrated? The answer is yes. Now if you want to talk Jango- then I will listen- he was so bad- he got to use a flamer in H2H... not even Eldar get to cheese out like that....hahaha


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As far as the old thread- there are a few people who believe that ST could handle the 40k universe because of their tech involved- but The main vote was in favor of 40K winning- through sheer numbers and because "In the grim darkness of the far future- There is only war!" So unless Commander Leonidas commands the 300 starships against the 40k universe's 8 billion ... I guess I will have to yield on the matter- I can't speak for everyone else... except haters of Boba Fett...Han was infinately cooler. Hell- Greedo did more...

this may give you an idea on religion(well the supreme power any way) versus st technology

Please I really don't want to start a thread on the ridiculousness that is religion- and lets just talk about something more believable- Star Wars, 40k, and Boba Fett...

Is there any chance that this thread can get back on topic?

Is there any chance it can then stay on topic?

Probably not, but please try!

Hahaha then I have to retire fom this topic...good bye.

StarGate wrote:http://www.merzo.net/index.html

What a cool website. Where else can you compare the size of BFG ships to the SDF-1, a klingon cruiser, and even godzilla?

That is awesome!

OK, Federation wins hands down on this ..... Since we all know the federation deals with Space/ time travel, IN so many star trek plots.... Red Matter Torpedo.... enough said.... I just got Done watching Star Trek ( the new movie).... To make a black hole out of a Drop of Red Matter..... OMFGoodness. Say good Terra, good bye Mars, good bye to any planet that doesnt bow down... All hale Kirk

To end that topic Star trek Vs Star wars... Red matter torpedo.... bye bye death star, good by ship yards at Kaut..... thats my opinion

StarGate wrote:OK, Federation wins hands down on this ..... Since we all know the federation deals with Space/ time travel, IN so many star trek plots.... Red Matter Torpedo.... enough said.... I just got Done watching Star Trek ( the new movie).... To make a black hole out of a Drop of Red Matter..... OMFGoodness. Say good Terra, good bye Mars, good bye to any planet that doesnt bow down... All hale Kirk

To end that topic Star trek Vs Star wars... Red matter torpedo.... bye bye death star, good by ship yards at Kaut..... thats my opinion

In the end Richard Dean Anderson wins when Amanda Tapping spontaneously creates a doomsday device from five rubber bands, a paper clip two bendy straws, and the Eye of the Gods, imploding the whole space-time-thingy

And then there is a smokey sex scene where MacGuyver goes into the past and has sex with himself using nothing more than cling film, half a rubber band and a pine needle!

StarGate wrote:OK, Federation wins hands down on this ..... Since we all know the federation deals with Space/ time travel, IN so many star trek plots.... Red Matter Torpedo.... enough said.... I just got Done watching Star Trek ( the new movie).... To make a black hole out of a Drop of Red Matter..... OMFGoodness. Say good Terra, good bye Mars, good bye to any planet that doesnt bow down... All hale Kirk

To end that topic Star trek Vs Star wars... Red matter torpedo.... bye bye death star, good by ship yards at Kaut..... thats my opinion

Err... huh? There weren't any red matter torpedoes in that movie. As for the red matter itself, that stuff was ridiculously unstable. Who'd want to fly around in a spaceship with something that could potentially be set off by engaging in battle and sucking your ship into a black hole? The only reason Nero got away with using the red matter willy nilly like he did was the fact that his ship was so much more powerful than everyone he was facing. That wouldn't be the case with any Starfleet ships up against Imperial ships, though. They won't be able to get anywhere near enough to destroy anything sensitive, as their ships just can't stand up to Imperial ships. Especially not Terra. The Imperial Fleet protecting Terra is probably enough to take down the entire Alpha Quadrant, by itself. Same goes for Star Wars. Star Destroyers are immensely more powerful than any Star Trek ship. Even if they did manage to successfully weaponize red matter, they'd never get to use it against an enemy who is vastly superior, otherwise (They'd never weaponize it, though. Let's get real, here. This is Star Trek. The Federation doesn't deal in solar system destroying doomsday weapons. And even if it were willing to create such a weapon, there's no indication that it's even possible for them to turn that into a functional weapon).

But yeah, on the subject, the Imperium takes it, easy. It's like asing who'd win in a fight. A Navy SEAL, or a midget. A slowed midget. A slowed midget who's blind in one eye, deaf, and has a peg leg. Really, that's how big the power discrepancy is. And yep, I've said as much on Star Trek forums despite also being a Star Trek fan. That's just the way the cookie crumbles. There is absolutely no way the Federation can possibly beat the Imperium. Not without some sort of ridiculous Deus Ex Machina. None whatsoever. Imperial ships are at least as powerful, if not moreso. The Imperium has vastly more ships than the Federation. They've got a lot more worlds than the Federation, giving it a larger industrial base. They most certainly have a larger military force than the Federation (And there's actually functions like one, unlike the Federation, who doesn't seem to have much in the way of heavy weaponry, artillery, ground vehicles, etc).

And to top it all off, Imperial warp travel is light years (figurative light years, not literal) faster than Federation warp technology. At maximum warp, it'd take the fastest Starfleet ship years to cross distances that the slowest Imperial ships can cross in days. The Imperium can literally strike anywhere and everywhere in the Federation, and Starfleet can't do a thing to stop them. Even if Starfleet knew they were coming, and had their fleets marshalled and ready to repel a strike, they wouldn't be able to stop Imperial ships from just ignoring their fleets and striking at all the unprotected worlds in the Federation, dropping billions of Imperial Guardsmen on each. And according to Ron Moore, the Federation has a fleet of about 30,000 ships. It's a rough estimate, but the Space Marines, alone, likely have around 2,500 Battle Barges and 8,000 Strike Cruisers. A little over 10,000 ships versus the Federation's 30,000, and that's one of the Imperium's smallest military branches. Can you imagine how many ships the Imperial Navy has? How much they vastly outnumber the Federation by? Gather up their entire fleet into one spot, it wouldn't matter, because the Imperium can play that numbers game and win every time.

But in this case they wouldn't have to, because Imperial ships are more powerful. A single Battle Barge can inflict far more damage on a planet than a fleet of 20 Star Trek ships outfitted for planetary bombardment in a similar span of time (as seen in a DS9 episode, when a combined Romulan/Cardassian fleet tried to take out the Founders homeworld). If one Battle Barge can outdo 20 ships, then God only knows what a Retribution Class Battleship can do to a fleet of Starfleet ships. Methinks a single one of them can do far more damage than the Borg did at Wolf 359.