But I'm not a member of that forum so I can't see the context.
This is too bad if this is true (according to Zac in the comments section of the TTGN site, the
original post is from the person responsible for the BB LRB, which lends to its veracity)
Games Workshop is concerned about the number of fantasy football miniature companies now showing up in the world. GW has also noted that several of the Star Players do not have official figures. They have agreed to allow them in at this time ... however over the coming weeks (perhaps months) they do NOT want to see discussions (or worse released figures) from other miniatures companies about creating figures to fill in for missing star players. Miniatures released by any company should not be marketed online as being a great figure for such and such BB Star Players.
It was made VERY clear today that if GW sees such marketing happening ... they will pull the LRB 6.0 (or modify it before it is officially posted) and remove all star players from the document that do not have an official BB figure effectively deleting the rules for that player from the game (and since LRB 6.0 will be the offical rules for many years to come ... this will be a serious deletion). So not only would this erase all the LRB 6.0 stars added to balance out the game and team's inducements. But many LRB 5.0 stars (Ramtut, Zara, Hemlock, Helmet, Ugroth, Spleenripper, etc. etc) would be deleted from the rulebook as well.
As someone who has spent a very long time working on the LRB 6.0 ... this would be GW biting off their nose to spite their face as they'd be greatly unbalancing the inducement system with such a move ... however I have no doubt at all that their current love for BB is such that they would not hesistate to make such a move.
I've already written every head of every miniature company I know of and requested that they stay away from anything related to targetting the BB Star Player market.
At this point ... I just want to get the LRB 6.0 hosted by GW so we can call this project finished for the good of everyone.
All Gw's threat has done, is make sure someone will do it. What company will turn down the chance to make some money, and make GW look stupid and petty?
If GW isn't going to make official miniatures for the Star Players, why the hell do they care if someone else does?
Gorram, these monkeys are petty.
Somebody really needs to sit down with GW, their marketing, and legal teams and explain to them how all this crap hurts their image and their relationship with their player community.
Blood bowl only requires a 'team' of miniatures not an 'army', so GW sit down and have a think about this and several other games where the number of models you need to play is limited and they decided to shove them all in a dusty corner marked 'specialist' and give them no love.
Other companies find that they can produce fantasy footballplaying miniatures and that there is a market for them, principally due to the bloodbowl game still being played but noone wanting to pay the dramatically increased prices GW attached to the specialist (endangered?) games mini range.
GW gets it's bloated undies in a knot over other companies daring to impinge on it's perceived Intellectual Property and dishes out legal threats whilst then threatening to limit releases in it's own game.
Another company produces a rulebook of fantasy football rules, along very similar lines and calls it OrcBowl or Elfball or whatever and the online community promotes this product since GW have stormed off in a tantrum.
New ruleset and miniatures sell, GW can keep it's Bloodbowl identity whilst doing nothing with it (which seems to be what they want to do since there is so little gold pressed latinum in selling just a football team), ex bloodbowl players get a new and supported game.
I'm kinda hoping some of the other games gets a bit of boost from this, largely because to me the Blood Bowl rules are too old-school (relying, among other things, on custom dice) and full of complex interactions that could and should be simplified immensely.
I've half a mind to write something myself, except I know I suck as a rules designer.
I remember reading something very similar to this ,
with same people replying + same reply content.
Is this Deja Vu or im going crazy?
This case if true is different to the fan forums issue.
In this case GW seem to be threatening to cripple the core Blood Bowl rules. Other companies are selling models for the special player characters, which GW do not produce themselves, so GW will delete all special characters from the rules.
The rules have been updated and maintained by a fan based committee for years. GW's only role in the process is to make and sell figures.
No doubt the amount of figures sold is so low that they can make a lot more money from licensing the name for a computer game. GW don't seem to want to make the moulds for new figures and compete with the two or three other manufacturers who also make fantasy football figures.
GW just gave some sugar to the competition, they will (obviously) take this golden oportunity to promote their own games and minis while GW by per consequence destroys BB a bit more.. if I was a competitor I would anounce starplayers today!
Whats the logic behind this?
- Just being petty?
- Try to controll competition with vain threats? Like if you sculpt this we will stop making those for BB...
- Just trying to save face by dressing the victim cap... its not our fault BB is bad its the competition bad boys
So there's no legal basis for this then? Since all of the 'Bloodbowl' websites are generic 'fantasy football' sites now GW don't have any legal say over what they do...
This is better than watching a blind kid run through a forrest.
I don't know about the exact legality of a competitor selling a figure as suitable for a particular special character. It probably depends on the wording.
For instance (made up example, I don't know much about BB) let's say there is an Elf character called Woody Slingmaster who is a famous thrower. He's in the rules but GW don't make a figure for him.
Heresy want to market a figure. They can just call him Bushy Throwking, the famous passer. It’s not using any GW trademarks.
In this case, it is still perfectly legal for GW to refuse to publish rules they own, including the rules for Woody Slingmaster.
...wow. So GW stops supporting the game, people flock to competitors to get what they want, and then GW threatens to stop supporting the game they've already stopped supporting.
What else, they're going to can WHF 8th edition until everyone stops making elves?
Kilkrazy wrote:I don't know about the exact legality of a competitor selling a figure as suitable for a particular special character. It probably depends on the wording.
For instance (made up example, I don't know much about BB) let's say there is an Elf character called Woody Slingmaster who is a famous thrower. He's in the rules but GW don't make a figure for him.
Heresy want to market a figure. They can just call him Bushy Throwking, the famous passer. It’s not using any GW trademarks.
In this case, it is still perfectly legal for GW to refuse to publish rules they own, including the rules for Woody Slingmaster.
They dont even need to name anything, just a generic sporty elf will do... there's not much GW can do about it.
Sure they can trash their own rules and limit the options but its really their loss.
So does anyone else feel really dirty right now? lol, I've owned GW gak since 2007 and I've never really been ashamed of it until now. And that's including the nerdy kinda shame where you don't tell anyone that you collect Warhammer gak.
Kilkrazy wrote:
For instance (made up example, I don't know much about BB) let's say there is an Elf character called Woody Slingmaster who is a famous thrower. He's in the rules but GW don't make a figure for him.
Heresy want to market a figure. They can just call him Bushy Throwking, the famous passer. It’s not using any GW trademarks.
Heh heh heh Woody became Bushy.
Thanks for posting the article text, pixel. I just wanted to make sure the link went through
to your site in the first place.
Maybe GW senses/suspects/is paranoid of some kind of collusion between the miniature
manufacturers and the Living Rulebook committee?
Sidstyler wrote:So does anyone else feel really dirty right now? lol, I've owned GW gak since 2007 and I've never really been ashamed of it until now. And that's including the nerdy kinda shame where you don't tell anyone that you collect Warhammer gak.
Nope, cant say these atitudes influence consciently were I take my business... other things in the past pissed me off much more... things like saying Nids arent bugs anymore and then months later released vespids and said they were the real bug thing... that one REALLY pissed me off... or the old genestealers fluff reduced to the minimum acceptable...
As I said consciently I'm not affected by these things... yet... past weekend the money I saved for the 40k fortress was spent in alkemy... maybe my subconscient getting the best of me
Kilkrazy wrote:In this case, it is still perfectly legal for GW to refuse to publish rules they own, including the rules for Woody Slingmaster.
Still perfectly legal, yes. But still a totally unecessary and self-destructive douchebag act, yes?
It doesn't help GW because they were never going to produce a "Woody" figure anyway. It doesn't particularly harm the indie manufacturer because the number of "Woody" models they'd sell will likely be countable on the fingers of one hand. People make proxy-BB figures for fun, not megabucks. If they were making megabucks GW would produce them. The only persons to suffer are the loyal BB fans who want to use "Woody" in their games and now can't.
My guess is that BB will be taken out of the hands of GW, much as the Chaos Dwarfs army book has been. GW's input into the process will be come irrelevant. All in the most legal and respectable way of course.
And long may it continue.
Corporate branding such as GW insist upon is a pox on wargaming anyhow! As comparison to the likes of Warlord Games, Mantic, Hasslefree, Wyrd Miniatures, Arcane Legions, and many other smaller companies have shown, GW is now a pathetic, bloated, redundant and unresponsive corporation. Sure its still worth picking over the carcass for their remains, but they've not added anything innovative to wargaming for a decade. All their brand is is an excuse to overcharge those who haven't the time or opportunity to look elsewhere for an alternative source of fun. They can tax our models but they can't take away our FREEDOM!!!!
Kilkrazy wrote:In this case, it is still perfectly legal for GW to refuse to publish rules they own, including the rules for Woody Slingmaster.
Still perfectly legal, yes. But still a totally unecessary and self-destructive douchebag act, yes?
I would tend to agree with you though perhaps I would not use those exact words.
My take on it is that GW only make any real money from the videogame licence of Blood Bowl™. They have no interest in supporting the tabletop game because though it is still fairly popular it doesn't sell a lot of figures due to its basic nature.
At the same time, GW naturally have no enthusiasm in creating opportunities for other companies to step into the gap they have left.
Looking on the bright side, however, this situation could create an opportunity.
Firstly, it might be possible to buy the BB rules from GW and rename them to avoid compromising the videogame IP. Relaunch the game as Dwarf Ball.
If this was not possible, it should be possible for the LRB committee and a company like Heresy to make a ruleset which closely approximates Blood Bowl functionality, using different mechanisms to avoid IP violation. For instance, if it takes a 2/6 roll of a D6 to hit with a pass, you just change that to a roll of 7 or under on D20. And so on.
Then you just change all the names and launch the new game as your own product. Plenty of players would follow since your game would now be more complete and better supported than the GW version.
This solution might suit GW, since they would still own the Blood Bowl trademark and be able to licence it for the videogame. Their BB figures would sell as alternatives to the official Dwarfball figures, and people would probably still buy Blood Bowl tabletop sets.
Kilkrazy wrote:If this was not possible, it should be possible for the LRB committee and a company like Heresy to make a ruleset which closely approximates Blood Bowl functionality, using different mechanisms to avoid IP violation. For instance, if it takes a 2/6 roll of a D6 to hit with a pass, you just change that to a roll of 7 or under on D20. And so on.
Then you just change all the names and launch the new game as your own product. Plenty of players would follow since your game would now be more complete and better supported than the GW version.
You could use exactly the same game mechanics, you would just have to write how they work differently from the GW version. Game mechanics are an abstract concept and cannot be Trademarked or copyrighted.
I think that GW could do them for plagiarism but I don't know the specifics of that (I'm sure the White Wolf vs. Sony case wasn't a typical case).
At any rate, the point is that GW's continuing support is not necessary for Blood Bowl and actually seems to becoming detrimental to the fanbase's enjoyment of the game.
...that's kind of a weird way to go about it then, because this makes them look pretty damn petty. Probably worse than if they had just straight up abandoned it (which they already have).
What a great irony it is that the largest games manufacturer cannot support such a small game. 'Games Workshop' is becoming an increasingly inappropriate name for that company, 'Citadel' (fortified town) is much better.
Why don't the BB players just play with the existing rules. GW can't seize your rulebooks. Whats the issue and by that I mean GW can feth off. If they quit EPIC altogether it wouldn't keep me from occasionally playing EPIC.
Frazzled wrote:Why don't the BB players just play with the existing rules. GW can't seize your rulebooks. Whats the issue and by that I mean GW can feth off. If they quit EPIC altogether it wouldn't keep me from occasionally playing EPIC.
But official GW blood bowl tournaments will use their rules and omit the special player. ..lol...I made a funny.
I think it's hard for GW to support such games because they are such a large company.
Their business model is the sale of large numbers of figures. It probably takes as effort and money to get a new user into Blood Bowl as it takes to get them into 40K.
Even keen fans don't need more than two teams of figures, and there's no way to stimulate extra figure sales like they could with Apocalypse and the Troops only scoring rules.
I don't think GW are particularly to blame for this. It's the way businesses work due to economies of scale and so on. GW are a mass production company and can't do custom work because it isn't cost effective.
Frazzled wrote:Why don't the BB players just play with the existing rules. GW can't seize your rulebooks. Whats the issue and by that I mean GW can feth off. If they quit EPIC altogether it wouldn't keep me from occasionally playing EPIC.
But official GW blood bowl tournaments will use their rules and omit the special player. ..lol...I made a funny.
Ok, I am not sure if your're speaking in jest so bear with me if that is the case.
Most tournaments in the US are non-GW store tourneys. The biggest tourneys are non GW (Adepticon, BOLcon, Bayou whatever for WFB down here). GW stores no longer holding tourneys would be a complete non-event to me.
Frazzled wrote:Why don't the BB players just play with the existing rules. GW can't seize your rulebooks. Whats the issue and by that I mean GW can feth off. If they quit EPIC altogether it wouldn't keep me from occasionally playing EPIC.
So in a nutshell, GW are annoyed that other companies are producing figures that fit into gaps in their own range. So instead of releasing figures to make their games fully playable they are removing the relevant rules! Great idea. Now it is naughty to advertise your figure as being ideal for someone else's range because you are riding on the back of their IP, but frankly what do you expect is going to happen if you don't support your own products year after year by not releasing the necessary miniatures to play the game?
Do they seriously think everyone is going to greenstuff their own Star Players because GW have stopped releasing figures?
GW are just taking players for granted. They think they can keep a small stock of Bloodbowl stuff to make the occasional sale and that earns them a profit without having to put an ounce of effort into product development. But in return for this they expect total fan loyalty, to only buy their product even though it's clear they are putting nothing into it at their end and offering an incomplete product. Customer loyalty works both ways, if you want people to remain loyal you support and respect their games. You can't expect to continually take money from customers for your product and inject nothing into it at your end and then become outraged when people start going to other companies to get their fix. Sheesh.
I used to love Necromunda but now I feel that its strength is in its miniature range (not the specialist games ones or the plastics). If they merged it with Gorka Morka (think post Armageddon war fluff) and sorted out the rules it'd have some value.
Bloodbowl (and Epic) are the only rulesets that stand up to scrutiny. Many of GW's Bloodbowl miniatures are over twenty years old (and suck).
Im pretty sure GW didnt trademark the names of those star players (I dont think there is a legal way to stop a company from calling thier figures by that players name).
This may be especially true if they never made a figure for that player.
If they were so afraid of "losing money" over a product they don't support, then maybe they should make the products that people obviously want enough to buy from other companies.
This kinds of reminds of a scene from the start of Blazing Saddles where the new sheriff puts the gun to his own head and threatens to pull the trigger.
About 2 mins 50 secs in here if you're interested.
I say wait until they release the rules, and THEN release your own 'elfball' figures. Or if they follow through on their own suicide, then a group of Bloodbowl players should get together, design, and test their own 'dwarfball rules', and distribute them to the community. If they actually follow through with this, I believe this spells the end for BloodBowl, and the beginning for Red-liquid bowl. The fanbase has been carrying on without GW support now for ages. If they survive GW's attempt to shut down the forums, they'll just switch over to BileBowl instead, and let GW rage impotently from their ivory towers on top of their mountain of gold.
I think the names of the star players are trade marked. Such things usually are put into one big "all things in this product are trade marked" grouping within the first few pages.
This is only speculation of where GW is coming from and why they are doing this:
If the companies making the "Star Players" for BB refer to the models by BB names and are not GW I think GW has the right to say "Don't call them or refer to them by those names because those names are the IP of GW". But if the companies only say "These would make great Star Players for other related games" then GW has no right to order them to stop.
The way I think of this, they left it well enough alone for years, and now they're going after those who are infringing on their rights.
There has to be something that prompted this. Companies do not invest resources (legal department, in this case) out of the blue, for no reason.
My guess is that it is either related to the new Bloodbowl videogame - because if you just licensed your property to a video-game company for $$$, that video game company is going to want exclusive rights to it - or that they are actually planning a reissue of Bloodbowl in the near future, and are preemptively getting the other fish out of the pond.
With the reissue of Space Hulk earlier this year, it would not surprise me if this was the case. But I think the licensing of the Video Game rights is also a likely reason for the renewed interest in Bloodbowl from GW Legal.
Kilkrazy wrote:You certainly can trademark a made up name. That's what Sony is.
Oh I know you can!
But I am sure they didnt, someone can doublecheck the US Trademark office.
Trademarking every name and character in thier universe would add up. I dont think a copyright due to publishing a written word translates to a trademark for products.
Redbeard wrote:...or that they are actually planning a reissue of Bloodbowl in the near future, and are preemptively getting the other fish out of the pond. With the reissue of Space Hulk earlier this year...
I think you're onto something there. A 'Space Hulk' style re-release would have no competition for basic models but independant Star players could.
Such a release would not need rules for Star Players (thus their possible removal from the v6 rules) but GWcould make a small line of them (sculped like the new Mighty Zug - who may have been a test piece for such a concept) and as usual lose interest before they get round to sculpting them all...
...this is where GW would want to stop 3rd parties getting in on the act.
Redbeard wrote:The way I think of this, they left it well enough alone for years, and now they're going after those who are infringing on their rights.
There has to be something that prompted this. Companies do not invest resources (legal department, in this case) out of the blue, for no reason.
My guess is that it is either related to the new Bloodbowl videogame - because if you just licensed your property to a video-game company for $$$, that video game company is going to want exclusive rights to it - or that they are actually planning a reissue of Bloodbowl in the near future, and are preemptively getting the other fish out of the pond.
With the reissue of Space Hulk earlier this year, it would not surprise me if this was the case. But I think the licensing of the Video Game rights is also a likely reason for the renewed interest in Bloodbowl from GW Legal.
This is a good point. If the video game is coming out soon I don't think GW wants to be seen as incompetent by the video game company.
I know the last thing I would want to do is invest and work with someone who doesn't care about their product.
The difference with Space Hulk is that the game had been OOP for years.
BB is still in print, supported by a significant line of miniatures, and new edition rules are expected.
The whole argument is because GW are apparently threatening to pull all special characters from the new rules if third party companies don't stop marketing figures for them.
Kilkrazy wrote:You certainly can trademark a made up name. That's what Sony is.
Oh I know you can!
But I am sure they didnt, someone can doublecheck the US Trademark office.
Trademarking every name and character in thier universe would add up. I dont think a copyright due to publishing a written word translates to a trademark for products.
Call the Player a "Special Teams" Player, and don't reference the obvious parallel between the model and the rules that point to the hole in the GW model line.
Hmmm...clamping down on BB Fansites...now clamping down on non-GW models arguably intended (certainly advertised) for the game....and the PC version released, generating new interest.
Perhaps this is part of a build up to them tackling the game once more, with a full release? Take control of it back, then big fanfare when you release it once more with a full set of models.
Things appear to be stabilising sales and profits wise, so they might be looking into enhanced support for the Specialist Range?
Kilkrazy wrote:You certainly can trademark a made up name. That's what Sony is.
Oh I know you can!
But I am sure they didnt, someone can doublecheck the US Trademark office.
Trademarking every name and character in thier universe would add up. I dont think a copyright due to publishing a written word translates to a trademark for products.
Um yeah, that doesnt state that those names are trademarked, only a few names like Blood Bowl etc. Again I am pretty sure those "star" names arent trademarked so other manufacturer can probably use them to describe the products.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Hmmm...clamping down on BB Fansites...now clamping down on non-GW models arguably intended (certainly advertised) for the game....and the PC version released, generating new interest.
Perhaps this is part of a build up to them tackling the game once more, with a full release? Take control of it back, then big fanfare when you release it once more with a full set of models.
Things appear to be stabilising sales and profits wise, so they might be looking into enhanced support for the Specialist Range?
No. There is no necessary causal relationship between protecting their IP and providing further support.
I had a box of Zendikar sitting on the shelf for the last few weeks. It was one of the first-run boxes, with possible "priceless treasures inside. I debated opening it up, or flipping it for cash.
I was sick at home yesterday, so i decided to break it open.
Given the contents of this letter it looks like not only did I make the right decision, but that even more of my money should be spent on Zendikar in the future, rather than GW.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Hmmm...clamping down on BB Fansites...now clamping down on non-GW models arguably intended (certainly advertised) for the game....and the PC version released, generating new interest.
Perhaps this is part of a build up to them tackling the game once more, with a full release? Take control of it back, then big fanfare when you release it once more with a full set of models.
Things appear to be stabilising sales and profits wise, so they might be looking into enhanced support for the Specialist Range?
No. There is no necessary causal relationship between protecting their IP and providing further support.
Hence the speculative tone.
It just seems odd that they start clamping down on BB in particular all of a sudden. I mean, why now, and not a couple of months before the PC Version was released?
Kilkrazy is right. I think Impact , et all can make fantasy football games because they are small operations, so if they sell 1,000 of a mini then they can make a good living. In order for GW to pay for all of the overhead they have, they need to sell 15,000+(or even more) of that mini.....
And the Star Players are not TM, probably true, but they are copyrighted (as the whole game and rulebooks are). They have also released novels...so even if they are not trademarked they are copyrighted, and GW would have some protection.
I had mentioned somewhere in another forum that it may be because of the video game or a new planned release...which would be cool, I think GW needs to get back to secondary games for incoming gamers....and I want them back and done well.
But whatever the reason, if I PERSONALLY had created something, spent years and years building it and making it better, and then see others copy it, it would definitely make ME upset. Even if I had many lots and they were only making a small bit...(or bigger bit as they grow).
And what they are really saying, to me, is, hey, we know we dropped the ball, and other companies are doing this. but we don't want them MARKETING them for our game. Perfectly reasonable wish, i'd say....even if the implementation may be horrendous.
Here's my take - GW barely supports Blood Bowl. The vast majority of the miniature range hasn't been updated since 1991. The boxed game itself still comes with the old ruleset. The new miniatures they've produced for the game are really nice, but don't make up for a near complete ignorance of a game that a small, but devoted, following keeps alive. As for complaints about the BB ruleset, it's one of the easiest GW games to play with a minimum of muss and fuss. It seems absolutely ridiculous to me that they want to start crying and moaning because someone is making a buck in a niche that they've long ignored and refuse to pay attention to.
That said, frankly, if GW wants to pull special characters from the game, fine. #1, there's enough copies of the LRB 6.0 out there with the special characters in it for the player base to take them as canon. #2, if special characters were truly an integral part of the game then this would sting a lot more, but frankly, IMHO special characters are icing on the cake. If GW wants to pull them, yeah, it would suck, but would the BB community survive? Yeah, probably so.
The reason they're threatening has probably something to do with the lack of trademark. If it were trademarked, they wouldn't need this moronic gesture. They'd simply have their IP Department contact the offending companies and threaten legal action.
It's a boneheaded manoeuvre and, even though I do play many a GW game, I won't be fretting a bit on the day they go down in flames - the gaming universes and some systems are so well ingrained in gamers' minds that someone will pick up these lines and probably do a much better job of them.
If they withhold LRB6, everyone who is playing now will just use LRB5.
There are no GW run BB tourneys.
The only time we have to use GW figures is at a GW store.
I listen to a BB Podcast called Three Die Block. They use heroclix figures, SW minis, or whatever they can get ahold of.
I think BloodBowl will do just fine without GW.
My impression is that it has been growing without them. At least around Chicago/Indy.
There are at least 5-6 BB Tourneys that I know of in this area, including a two-day tourney at Adepticon.
Another thing to know.
The BloodBowl game is supposed to come out on XBox.
If you bought the Direct PC version, you will get Dark Elves as a free download.
If you buy it on XBox when it comes, you do not get Dark Elves. You have to buy it on XBox Live.
Living Rulebook.. pfft, I still use the rules from the box ta.
Hell tbh I'm thinking about going back to 2nd ed rules, I prefer the team set ups.
Seems an odd thing mind you, certainly agree it looks like a 'toys out the pram' reaction. Which is kinda sad from a games company.
Oh and Dark Elves eh, excellent, even if I have to pay for them, seems those three xbox games I pre-ordered yesterday will be well worth it. (Both my brothers are getting a copy for christmas for future 'Live' action.. and they'll like it gosh darn it!)
Well, a friend has minis for all the teams already.
When he gets the jones for a new one, he buys WHFB minis.
Our group just pick from his selection. Helps keep the mix good also. no all Orc leagues.
So I think you can do quite well without GW making BB figs.
At the Zlurpee Bowl in Indy this year, a guy used the evil dwarf puppets from Rackham as his Chaos Dwarf Team.
They were fantastic.
This was also the event where Impact Miniatures was selling.
Because at least half of the players had asked him to bring stuff to sell.
GW has lost control of the BB community and are now trying to smash it.
They realize that the gamers do not need them to keep the game going.
And they are pissy because of it.
I am sure they had hoped it would quietly die like Necromunda, Gorkamorka, and Mordheim.
Am I the only one thinking it's normal to not want other companies to make profit on your own games?
The threat is dumb and self-destructing but the intent is very normal and expected.
Tethyr13 wrote:And the Star Players are not TM, probably true, but they are copyrighted (as the whole game and rulebooks are). They have also released novels...so even if they are not trademarked they are copyrighted, and GW would have some protection.
You can't copyright a name (seriously, just type in "copyright" into Google, it is easy to check. You also can't copyright an idea, so you can't even copyright a player's background. You can copyright the exact text of their background, and that covers any obvious derivatives of that text, but still not the idea behind the text, so all you have to do is a thorough re-write from scratch and you are fine. If I want to crate a world set 40,000 years in the future in which a dying Emperor is the figurehead of a human Empire who battle Space Orcs (might not get away wth Orks), Space Elves (unlikely to get away with "Eldar"), Bio-skeletons, Bugs, Demon (Not Daemon) possessed marines (Maybe not "Space Marines"), GW can't touch me.
You can Trademark a name, but GWhaven't for their Star Players. Now, on that basis, anyone is free to use that name. If people were breaking Trademarking rules, GW would send Cease & Desist letters. GW are perfectly within their rights to withdraw their own use of that name and anything else associated with that name. It is petty and childish, but they are well within their rights. Calling my above 41K or 50K would get me in trouble due to a deliberate attempt to trade on recognition of "40k" but they could not touch me if I called it Grimdark Battles.
Kilkrazy wrote:At any rate, the point is that GW's continuing support is not necessary for Blood Bowl and actually seems to becoming detrimental to the fanbase's enjoyment of the game.
Quoted for truth.
The fact of the matter is that GW haven't really been doing anything for this game for a long time and it would have already died if not for the fans.
The problem is that GW will not sell a licence for the game to anyone for less than 1 Million pounds which is basically "...no, but everyone has their price...".
Automatically Appended Next Post: To add more information to the sticky situation:
Quoted from Tom (Galak) on Ausbowl.com in response to the LRB6 caveat and GW pointing a gun at their own rules regarding other companies making (and marketing)star player figures.
"I dont think this happens anyway does it?"
Unfortunately .. bad timing yes it has.
Zenit Miniatures has been publically discussing on BBForo and TFF that they planned to make resin miniatures to cover all the star players in Blood Bowl. These happened within the last two weeks.
So my best bet is this caveat is two folks
1) Someone from GW saw that declaration from Zenit. (I've talked to them and while the response included multiple well deserved curses to GW .. they appear to understand the situation) In his own words: "I guess GW has no way of sueing a company that makes a figure on an elf holding a ball, so, to prevent people from creating these figures, they threaten the audience with erasing things from the LRB6 so these companies have no customers.... "
2) I know there are some at GW that feel that by me being on the BBRC that I've been manipulating the rules to add more star players so that Impact! can swoop in and make money by producing figures for them. Truth to be told I already have our production schedule for next 2010 and hadn't planned on any new figures that targeted any other games Stars. We need to get the Timberline Elves finished ... we have some ideas for some new Samhaino Hunters which I'm very excited about ... we have greens in house for new Night Elf Hunters and Strikers for our Elfball team ... I need to get the rules for Boulder Brawl (fun concept) finished and we have figures bring two of Matt Dixon's babes to life. Please note ... no where in that was a master plan to produce BB stars based on my evil manipulations of the BBRC and the LRB ... sigh. Why is that ... because my business partners agreed a long time ago that to do such a thing while I was a BBRC members would be a wrong thing to do ... and I still maintain that ... even if GW has trouble believing that some gamers doing business still have souls ... I know we at Impact! do and plan to keeping them for a while.
===
So my best guess is that they said this because of what they read for one and what their monolopistic paranoia thought was happening for a second.
Galak
And a second post as to Galak's well reasoned response to the caveat.
also wanted to post my response to the email back to GW.
Quote::
The star players are an important part of the overall balance of the inducement system. With LRB 6.0 we spent a great deal of time creating stars to accomplish two things that LRB 5.0 did very poorly ... which was an unequal amount of stars per each team and an unequal pricing of stars for the teams. LRB 6.0 gives each team 6 star players to work with and across a range of prices. GW wanted a PBBL system for Blood Bowl ... this was an important component to get there. ... ... My bigger urging would be that given what GW charges for Star Players for Blood Bowl ... instead of seeing this as a liability as you have presented above ... I would more suggest this is an easy opportunity for GW to make some easy cash with one off figures. Why they spent the money to remake Griff and Zug when there were stars that needed figures has always escaped me. As has the fact that two of the most popular star figures (Ramtut and Zara) have existing moulds at GW ... have been listed in the catalogue for over a year ... and are still not available for sale.
Tethyr13 wrote:And the Star Players are not TM, probably true, but they are copyrighted (as the whole game and rulebooks are). They have also released novels...so even if they are not trademarked they are copyrighted, and GW would have some protection.
You can't copyright a name (seriously, just type in "copyright" into Google, it is easy to check. You also can't copyright an idea, so you can't even copyright a player's background. You can copyright the exact text of their background, and that covers any obvious derivatives of that text, but still not the idea behind the text, so all you have to do is a thorough re-write from scratch and you are fine. If I want to crate a world set 40,000 years in the future in which a dying Emperor is the figurehead of a human Empire who battle Space Orcs (might not get away wth Orks), Space Elves (unlikely to get away with "Eldar"), Bio-skeletons, Bugs, Demon (Not Daemon) possessed marines (Maybe not "Space Marines"), GW can't touch me.
You can Trademark a name, but GWhaven't for their Star Players. Now, on that basis, anyone is free to use that name. If people were breaking Trademarking rules, GW would send Cease & Desist letters. GW are perfectly within their rights to withdraw their own use of that name and anything else associated with that name. It is petty and childish, but they are well within their rights. Calling my above 41K or 50K would get me in trouble due to a deliberate attempt to trade on recognition of "40k" but they could not touch me if I called it Grimdark Battles.
QFT. It is impossible to copyright an *idea*. This means it is impossible to copyright a specific rules mechanic or even set of mechanics. The actual wording of those mechanics/rules is copyright, but not the idea behind them. And this has been tested specifically with GW and the NetEpic project which is essentially a rewording and tidy up of the original Epic/Space Marine rules published by fans over the internet (check it out for yourselves at: http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/index.cgi?act=ST;f=14;t=16938). This has been run by GW legal and its kosher. It has also been tested with the OSRIC project - which is a rewriting of the 1st edition of AD&D. If GW yank the BB community chain too hard, then there's nothing GW can do to stop the BB-playing community doing the same themselves. If someone cared enough and was prepared to put in the time and effort. Which seeing as how so many people *really* love BB to an unhealthy degree I could easily believe!
GW are grasping at smoke with this one and are playing a desparate hand. Ultimately they are merely a convenience, not a necessity to the game and are playing a toxic mix of brinkmanship and "the emperor's new clothes".
Personally I'd say "stuff 'em" and would recommend anyone to buy the new independent Sci-fi and fantasy magazine "The Ancible" (http://www.the-ancible.com) For less than the cost of WD you get a magazine delivered to your door full of reviews, bat reps and pictures of all the fantasy and sci-fi games out there. Much more interesting than being force fed the monotonous GW-only diet that many survive on!
I wonder what the NFL would think of a UK company basing a game off of their sport? Or College Leagues? Or High School Leagues? Or Pee Wee Leagues ...
Should Cease and Desists be sent to GW from them?
NO !! GWs childish stance and pathetic grand-standing is ludicrous !! It's acting like a grown child that wants it's forgotten baby toy back just so it's younger sibling won't play with it !!!
What next? Withholding rules for special characters in Warhammer or 40K because other companies produce suitable and diverse alternates for them ?
Can it be said that Fantasy Football is as generic a game genre as fantasy or sci fi skirmish or large-scale battles?
And didn't GW climb into the ring with historical games companies with "Warhammer Ancients" and produce suitable alternate models?
Sorry for the rant but I've ignored the antics of GW Corporate in favor of GW Games but this is getting to be just too much. The company is run by a bunch of Geico Cavemen (sorry if you are one) and doesn't deserve my fanboi loyalty. Who wants to play Warmachine? Infinity? AT-43? Flames of War? etc ....
Death By Monkeys wrote:As for complaints about the BB ruleset, it's one of the easiest GW games to play with a minimum of muss and fuss.
You obviously never played in a league.
skrulnik wrote:GW has lost control of the BB community and are now trying to smash it.
They realize that the gamers do not need them to keep the game going.
And they are pissy because of it.
I am sure they had hoped it would quietly die like Necromunda, Gorkamorka, and Mordheim.
To be fair to GW, they have produced a very popular game which has stood the test of time [written by Jervis Johnson no less, no wonder it get more support than other specialist games!] Why shouldn't they protect this in any way they see fit? If I had created a product for sale, developed that overtime and someone else started producing contrived facsimiles in direct competition then I would be fairly pissed too.
With Bloodbowl you have a new computer game, a complete range of teams, allot of the SP's and updated rules which GW give you and update for free! That’s pretty good coverage in my book, to complain at GW for not having all SPs covered seems pretty foolish to me [no different from most games systems].
I would suggest that it is childish to points fingers at GW for protecting its product from what are after all freeloaders/parasites. As some have pointed out other have been making their own fantasy football ranges for some time, what has happen here is that some have taken the piss a bit and stepped over the mark. Suggesting that sculpt A is best used as Herman Bollocmuncher [tm] from GW's Bloodbowl game is being too blatant and has registered with GW. No disimilar in general terms from what Battlefoam were doing last month when a new rival started to move in on its territory.
So by my reckoning GW have three options;
1) Do nothing take a hit - unlikely, they don't pay Lawyers and marketing people to sit on their thumbs all day, plus what precedence does it set?
2) What they have done - unhappy campers, hopefully a reduction in infringements/freeloading.
3) Withdraw from the game completely - GW withdrew its support from BB I think that the community would slowly die a death along with the freeloaders and in five years time GW would release a new version of BB for £80/$150 with a clean field and probably a whole lot of unhappy BB vets.
#2 seems reasonable enough to me, the parasite companies aren't foolish enough to upset the company that they are feeding from after all. Also by my reckoning a little bit of support for GW wouldn't go a miss on this issue, Jebus knows there are enough real issues to worry about!
Oh wait a minute there is option #4 - GW produces model ranges derived from other games systems in revenge......in plastic. I can just hear the howls of anger as the "little guys" start dropping like flies.
skrulnik wrote:GW has lost control of the BB community and are now trying to smash it. They realize that the gamers do not need them to keep the game going. And they are pissy because of it. I am sure they had hoped it would quietly die like Necromunda, Gorkamorka, and Mordheim.
That makes a frightening amount of sense.
This makes no sense at all, actually. You are mistaking GW, a corporation, for an individual who may have emotional responses such as getting pissy.
Corporations do not do things because they are upset. Corporations do things for reasons. The reasons may seem somewhat esoteric and random, but they're not. They have actual concrete reasons for what they do, and in general, they're financial.
Legally, if a corporation does not protect its trademarks, it stands to lose them. If you intend to make money by licensing rights to a game to a video-game company, you need to maintain the rights to that game. GWs game designers and studio people would probably be quite happy to allow Bloodbowl to be a public-domain game. But the money-men and lawyers can't allow that - not if they intend to profit from the license they've contracted out to the video-game.
Why are all these C&D letters coming to BB sites, but not to Mordheim, Necromunda, etc. sites? Because when it doesn't conflict with their business interests, it is to GW's benefit to allow fans to keep such things going. It builds goodwill, sells a few miniatures every so often, and doesn't cost them anything. It's only when it starts to cost them something - in this case, the possible loss of license revenue - that they're going to take action.
Redbeard wrote:
Corporations do not do things because they are upset. Corporations do things for reasons. In GW these reasons are somewhat esoteric and random,
notprop wrote:To be fair to GW, they have produced a very popular game which has stood the test of time [written by Jervis Johnson no less, no wonder it get more support than other specialist games!] Why shouldn't they protect this in any way they see fit? If I had created a product for sale, developed that overtime and someone else started producing contrived facsimiles in direct competition then I would be fairly pissed too.
With Bloodbowl you have a new computer game, a complete range of teams, allot of the SP's and updated rules which GW give you and update for free! That’s pretty good coverage in my book, to complain at GW for not having all SPs covered seems pretty foolish to me [no different from most games systems].
I would suggest that it is childish to points fingers at GW for protecting its product from what are after all freeloaders/parasites. As some have pointed out other have been making their own fantasy football ranges for some time, what has happen here is that some have taken the piss a bit and stepped over the mark. Suggesting that sculpt A is best used as Herman Bollocmuncher [tm] from GW's Bloodbowl game is being too blatant and has registered with GW. No disimilar in general terms from what Battlefoam were doing last month when a new rival started to move in on its territory.
So by my reckoning GW have three options;
1) Do nothing take a hit - unlikely, they don't pay Lawyers and marketing people to sit on their thumbs all day, plus what precedence does it set?
2) What they have done - unhappy campers, hopefully a reduction in infringements/freeloading.
3) Withdraw from the game completely - GW withdrew its support from BB I think that the community would slowly die a death along with the freeloaders and in five years time GW would release a new version of BB for £80/$150 with a clean field and probably a whole lot of unhappy BB vets.
#2 seems reasonable enough to me, the parasite companies aren't foolish enough to upset the company that they are feeding from after all. Also by my reckoning a little bit of support for GW wouldn't go a miss on this issue, Jebus knows there are enough real issues to worry about!
Oh wait a minute there is option #4 - GW produces model ranges derived from other games systems in revenge......in plastic. I can just hear the howls of anger as the "little guys" start dropping like flies.
That would be a good argument except the facts do not bear it out.
GW aren't protecting sales because they don't sell the models they want Impact to stop selling.
They aren't protecting IP, because there isn't any IP to protect. If there was, they could send C&D letters to Impact.
They aren't the game rules or fans' emjoyment, -- the very opposite! They are threatening to cripple the game rules by deleting the Special Characters.
It can't be worth GW's time to make and fulfil plastic models of the special characters because they haven't even bothered to make metal ones which are much cheaper to do in the volumes required.
Option 5 is for the LRB committee to sever links with GW, alter them 6e rules enough to publish under a new name (Gore Ball, perhaps) without violating GW IP. A lot of fans would follow.
Kilkrazy wrote: That would be a good argument except the facts do not bear it out.
... They aren't protecting IP, because there isn't any IP to protect. If there was, they could send C&D letters to Impact. ...
IP is more than just sculpts. IP includes the names of the characters, background material, etc. If Impact is directly using the names of the characters to sell the figures, GW owns the IP behind those names. If GW doesn't protect those, then they can lose the right to them. GW is licensing such characters to the Videogame, and therefore needs to retain them.
If Impact simply sold 'medieval football warriors', and left it to the fan's imagination for what they might be used for, then no one cares. It's that they're using GWs names that causes the issues.
Redbeard wrote:Legally, if a corporation does not protect its trademarks, it stands to lose them. If you intend to make money by licensing rights to a game to a video-game company, you need to maintain the rights to that game.
What's funny is that they're doing all this for a video game which, according to what I keep hearing, sucks.
Redbeard wrote:Impact is directly using the names of the characters to sell the figures.
Where is Impact doing this? I've yet to see any mention of Blood Bowl on their website. (In fact, I did a Google site search, and the only mention of BB is on the product page of a team they did for the World Cup, a limited edition item that's out of stock) Or have they already mutilated their webstore? I did notice the "Pro Players" section is empty.
Kilkrazy wrote:GW aren't protecting sales because they don't sell the models they want Impact to stop selling.
GW is protecting *future* sales.
If a BB player already owns a non-GW version of a star player, they won't buy the GW version if/when it is released.
And quite frankly, companies do this kind of thing all the time. Companies have bought exclusive distribution / production rights for various products simply to kill them off, while introducing and building their own competitors. It prevents competition in the company's best interest.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Redbeard wrote:If Impact simply sold 'medieval football warriors', and left it to the fan's imagination for what they might be used for, then no one cares. It's that they're using GWs names that causes the issues.
JohnHwangDD wrote:GW is protecting *future* sales.
Bullsh!t.
JohnHwangDD wrote:If a BB player already owns a non-GW version of a star player, they won't buy the GW version if/when it is released.
Based on what? Because of? Due to?
We already see people buy new versions of GW models they already own when GW releases a new one, so what do you base this notion on DD?
JohnHwangDD wrote:And quite frankly, companies do this kind of thing all the time. Companies have bought exclusive distribution / production rights for various products simply to kill them off, while introducing and building their own competitors. It prevents competition in the company's best interest.
Trust you of all people to come in here defending GW's actions here.
Redbeard wrote:This.
+1
QFT.
Where are Impact selling models labelled with GW names? Show me and I'll drop this. I've been through their entire Elfball line, and cannot find a single 'Star Player' that bears a GW name.
There is a lot of GW apology going on with very little to back it up. This action by GW is nothing more than veiled threats because the legalities of the issue are simply in no way supporting GW's intended business action at all.
I personally can't wait for GW to screw LRB 6 up horribly and have the rules commitee quit in disgust and release their own (house rules for LRB5) which the community would take up in a jiffy.
Breotan wrote:Wait, wait wait... GW is threatening to pull the plug on a game they don't really support anyway?
This.
Its amazing ho wmuch GW is getting pissy over this, considering they pretty much shut down specialist games and made it extremely hard to support and then left the games pretty much dead in the wind. Only now after almost a decade of fan support and pissing all over its fans and such.
Redbeard wrote:If Impact simply sold 'medieval football warriors', and left it to the fan's imagination for what they might be used for, then no one cares. It's that they're using GWs names that causes the issues.
Sorry I'm late to the party here ... but I just saw this thread tonight and needed to respond.
We have only ever sold Elfball miniatures. There are no references on our website to any game sold by GW and there have not been for the 4 years we've been open. In fact, we openly support GW figure sales through a seperate website we own ... BBFigs.com where we sell team sets for the teams in Blood Bowl that GW does not sell the correct figures for on their website.
We have never sold any of our figures with the same name as an existing GW miniature on Impact!'s site. We have on BBFigs.com but it was always with a GW figure for that name.
We have never sold any of our figures with the name of GW hero/star in any rulebook that they do not have a miniature for on Impact!'s site. We have on BBFigs.com but it was always with a GW figure for that name.
When I saw that Redbeard was a mod ... I know this makes statements like his have extra weight. And when they are not true I'd like to make sure we don't get the image tarnish from that.
If you look earlier in this thead ... you'll see it was Zenit Miniatures that was saying they were going to do what Redbeard said (sell Star Player miniatures directly with GW names) ... not Impact! ... I think a previous post confused him.
Since we've opened ... Impact! has had only one goal ... supporting the gaming community and their needs as best we can. Most of our products have come from suggestions or requests by our customers. We also license fan kits (for 1 GBP) to folks that want to set up sites for Elfball (rather than shut them down). We are young and have only had 2 people request to do so but for example ... www.elfball.net is a fan site that we licensed to them when requested with instructions to maintain our IPs.
Thanks for the clarification. I've always wanted to try Elfball, but sadly,
I could never stand behind entire teams of your miniatures much less
the required two teams I'd need to show my friends the game. I really
liked some of the figs, but I think the larger ones threw me off.
Edit: Article Mods have no real power here except over the articles section
of the site. So Redbeard does a lot of work editing 40k summaries and I
spend my time on the Warmachine ones.
Otherwise, the only thing we can do is hit the Alert a moderator button
like everyone else.
ImpactMinis wrote:In fact, we openly support GW figure sales through a seperate website we own ... BBFigs.com where we sell team sets for the teams in Blood Bowl that GW does not sell the correct figures for on their website.
Tom @ Impact!
So Redbeard was right, you guys *are* poaching on GW's BB brand and IP?
ImpactMinis wrote:In fact, we openly support GW figure sales through a seperate website we own ... BBFigs.com where we sell team sets for the teams in Blood Bowl that GW does not sell the correct figures for on their website.
Tom @ Impact!
So Redbeard was right, you guys *are* poaching on GW's BB brand and IP?
HUH? BBFigs.com only sells GW miniatures. So how can it poach GW's IP when its selling only GW product?????
An example of what BBFigs.com does. The current rules for the last 3 years for the Norse team give it Nordic Werewolves and a Snow Troll. The team sold on the GW site doesn't have these figures. The 12 man team GW sells is for the old rules of the game (2005 and earlier). The rules for the team changed in 2006 .... but GW never updated the team on their webstore.
So on BBFigs.com we package Blood Bowl Norse figures with 2 Werewolf figures from another part of GW's range and with a Yhetee from the Ogre Kingdoms range so that folks can purchase a Norse team that actually matches the rules.
We also offer the same service for the Dark Elf (which now have 2 Assassins on the roster) and Ogre teams (which now have Snotlings) which are not properly packaged by GW either on their webstore.
I'm really struggling to understand how you can poach IP when you are retailing only GW product to properly match GW rules???
ImpactMiniatures.com is a seperate website and it sells the game Elfball and figures for that game and never mentions any game from GW on the site. We do mention Deathball ... but that's because we have express permision from Heresy Minatures to promote his game and sell his figures for his game.
So JohnHwangDD ... did I miss that part of IP law where as a GW vendor the BBFigs.com webstore is poaching IP by selling only their product in ways to better match their own rules?
ImpactMinis wrote:In fact, we openly support GW figure sales through a seperate website we own ... BBFigs.com where we sell team sets for the teams in Blood Bowl that GW does not sell the correct figures for on their website.
Tom @ Impact!
So Redbeard was right, you guys *are* poaching on GW's BB brand and IP?
You should probably check out their site before you post.
Welcome to BBFigs.com
Your one stop source for proper Blood Bowl teams and individual Blood Bowl figures
Legal Disclaimer: BBFigs.com is registered and solely operated in the U.K. All figures are purchased directly from Games Workshop only from funds in U.K. banks and all miniatures are shipped from the U.K.
malfred wrote:Thanks for the clarification. I've always wanted to try Elfball.
When I mentioned we had 2 fan sites that we sold licenses to ... the one that I didn't mention was to a person who wanted to set up the game on Vassal. He's the other guy we gave rules for using our IP and sold a license to set up a fansite (if you can call a Vassal ap a fansite).
Rulebook for Elfball is free online ... look up the game on Vassal ... you can give it a try and don't have to worry about purchasing two metal teams to play our game. Everyone has different tastes in miniatures ... so no worries if the look of our figures is not for you. Heck when we've run official Elfball tournaments ... we allow folks to bring in fantasy football figures from Heresy, Rolljordan, Goblin Forge, Orc from Bilabo, Hasslefree, Neomics, GreenDog, Gaspez Arts and GW for their teams as part of our rules (all 9 of those companies make decent looking fantasy football figures). Our bigger concern is for folks to have a good time playing the game than to use our miniatures to do so.
ImpactMinis wrote:In fact, we openly support GW figure sales through a seperate website we own ... BBFigs.com where we sell team sets for the teams in Blood Bowl that GW does not sell the correct figures for on their website.
Tom @ Impact!
So Redbeard was right, you guys *are* poaching on GW's BB brand and IP?
HUH? BBFigs.com only sells GW miniatures. So how can it poach GW's IP when its selling only GW product?????
So JohnHwangDD ... did I miss that part of IP law where as a GW vendor the BBFigs.com webstore is poaching IP by selling only their product in ways to better match their own rules?
Tom @ Impact!
You are certainly operating a commercial enterprise using GW's trademarks. And you're operating a website with "BB" for "Blood Bowl".
If you were US-based, I think you missed (or are willfully ignoring) the part of your vendor agreement whereby you cannot sell any GW product whatsoever via a web-based shopping cart, because that apparently infringes on GW's US IP rights.
If GW US found out, I wouldn't be surprised for them to slap a C&D on you in short order - after all, if GW is going after non-commercial fansites, you can bet they'll hammer your commercial one.
Of course, you being under GWUK, fair use and such conform to customer-expected norms...
malfred wrote:Thanks for the clarification. I've always wanted to try Elfball.
When I mentioned we had 2 fan sites that we sold licenses to ... the one that I didn't mention was to a person who wanted to set up the game on Vassal. He's the other guy we gave rules for using our IP and sold a license to set up a fansite (if you can call a Vassal ap a fansite).
Rulebook for Elfball is free online ... look up the game on Vassal ... you can give it a try and don't have to worry about purchasing two metal teams to play our game. Everyone has different tastes in miniatures ... so no worries if the look of our figures is not for you. Heck when we've run official Elfball tournaments ... we allow folks to bring in fantasy football figures from Heresy, Rolljordan, Goblin Forge, Orc from Bilabo, Hasslefree, Neomics, GreenDog, Gaspez Arts and GW for their teams as part of our rules (all 9 of those companies make decent looking fantasy football figures). Our bigger concern is for folks to have a good time playing the game than to use our miniatures to do so.
Tom @ Impact!
That is an outstanding outlook from a game company. I guess I have to buy that Siringit team now (Supporting good game companies and all that)
JohnHwangDD wrote:If GW US found out, I wouldn't be surprised for them to slap a C&D on you in short order - after all, if GW is going after non-commercial fansites, you can bet they'll hammer your commercial one.
H.B.M.C. ... I know you said don't feed him ... but I cannot resist one more post with two points.
As noted BBFigs.com is entirely UK based in its operations and as such the GW US's rules on this are not relevant. I do find it interesting you edited your post after you realized we were UK based ... but left in all the not relevant details of how it would be against the rules in the USA when those are not the rules of the UK.
But the more important point which is why I'm feeding here despire H.B.M.C. requested me not to. Employees of GWUK HELPED us set up BBFigs.com. They gave us some lengthly details on how to set up the webstore, the details to put on it, what images could be used to sell the product, disclaimers needed etc. Even BBFigs.com had their approval as a website name. So in the face of this .. it makes the details of your discussion points about how this would be a problem in the USA seem even further from relevance. ... eh?
Oh, and Impact, thanks for answering the question I posted a bit further up this page.
As I said a few posts before, I had gone over your entire site looking for even a single item that bore the same name (or even a derived name) of a GW 'Star Player' or other product.
I couldn't find a single one.
So any criticism levelled at you for trying to sell miniatures that 'fill in' GW gaps (and use their IP at the same time) are utterly unfounded and I can see how you'd be insulted by the insinuation.
Good to see the people calling GW 'fair and balanced' here are in the wrong. As usual.
I fail to see how selling GW´s official minis is poaching GW´s IP. You are selling the original product so I guess that as long as the pertinent trade laws/agreements allow it you can sell the product any way you want, mention the name (and the game this product is used for) and so on...
If not it´d be like saying that I´m selling a car but I can´t show you a photo or even say the name and manufacturer because I´m poaching FORD´s IP and brand names.
JohnHwangDD wrote:Of course, you being under GWUK, fair use and such conform to customer-expected norms...
@Malfred, Impact: See above, emphasis added.
@HMBC: You calling anybody a troll is amusing. Pot.
@Miguelsan: Thanks to Disney, GW US is able to do things with GW IP that cannot be done anywhere else in the world. Until IP harmonization happens. When that happens, GW US IP rules can be expected to propogate across the EU.
JohnHwangDD wrote:@Miguelsan: Thanks to Disney, GW US is able to do things with GW IP that cannot be done anywhere else in the world. Until IP harmonization happens. When that happens, GW US IP rules can be expected to propogate across the EU.
I hope it goes the other way around, not that I´m holding my breath...
JohnHwangDD wrote:@Miguelsan: Thanks to Disney, GW US is able to do things with GW IP that cannot be done anywhere else in the world. Until IP harmonization happens. When that happens, GW US IP rules can be expected to propogate across the EU.
I hope it goes the other way around, not that I´m holding my breath...
M.
I wouldn't count on the US overruling the EU on harmonisation of IP laws.
The EU has already shown itself favourable to 'moral rights' and against the US practice of software patents.
Is there any possible way to contact someone inside GW legal department and actual quiz them on the subject AND get a real response, if so post the number and i'll give em a buzz
JohnHwangDD wrote:The main point is that US IP laws are slowed.
Now that you and I agree on.
However ... it should be noted that I met with an IP lawyer in the USA last week and he was 100% certain (ie no doubt) that if one had the money they could sue GW in the USA for not allowing online stores to sell their items and win that right. (especially if the items were displayed with their the purchaser painted images and own pictures)
The problem being that GW US has promised to not sell product to anyone who has an online store ... so what the point in sueing and winning the right?
Ok this is brightline flamy. I am shutting this down. If anyone has an issue they can take it up with me privately. I promise not to immediately ban you (I'm lying).
Shows how much I have been paying attention to their other projects then. 
BBFigs.com only sells 
