So, ive reached an impass with someone running a 40k Leauge. His claim is that my Space Wolf units MUST be used as Blood Claws, because the majority are modeled with BP/CCWs. I modeled them with the intention of using them as Grey Hunters, I just greatly prefer the BP/CCW design and modeled them that way, with the occasional "True Grit" Bolter/CCW thrown into the mix. Grey Hunters have BP/CCWs as part of their wargear, and I didnt forsee a problem.

So whats everyones take on this? Is he wrong to force me to use them as Blood Claws? Am I wrong to want to use them as Grey Hunters?

Are they armed with legal weapon options allowed by the Codex? Looks like it to me. I think your organizer needs to lighten up.

Lighten up or read the codex, all SW troop choices come with BP and CCW, GH also tote a bolter.

Dan wrote:So, ive reached an impass with someone running a 40k Leauge. His claim is that my Space Wolf units MUST be used as Blood Claws, because the majority are modeled with BP/CCWs. I modeled them with the intention of using them as Grey Hunters, I just greatly prefer the BP/CCW design and modeled them that way, with the occasional "True Grit" Bolter/CCW thrown into the mix. Grey Hunters have BP/CCWs as part of their wargear, and I didnt forsee a problem.

So whats everyones take on this? Is he wrong to force me to use them as Blood Claws? Am I wrong to want to use them as Grey Hunters?

Grey Hunters come armed with BP, CCW and Bolters. So modeling a majority with BP and CCW and sprinkling a few Bolters is perfectly WYSIWYG. Nevertheless, it is his League and ultimately you may have to abide by his "house" rules if you want to play.

Hmm yah his league but guy needs to take a chill pill, seems like everyones thinking along the same lines here. You seem to be will within YOUR rights with YOUR army.

The models are still WYSIWYG.
Obviously they will also be detailed as such in the army list.

all i see is a person who hasnt bothered to read the pups dex as it all checks out fine

Id tell him to stick his BP up his whiney ass tbh, ive model'd my greyhunters with bolter's and ccw's for the simple fact they look cool as. The guy obviously fears your grey hunters which i dont blame him they are a mean force may i ask what he is running?

Just a thought after my last post.
I think all greys should be made this way

I think mixing the weapons they have shows they are actually greys rather than claws, and helps make it even more WYSIWYG.
Also, maybe he has something against people who take out the time to make models that look good?
Me thinks he simply follows the instructions on every box when building an army

Simple solution: Get some thread, make a sling on a half dozen Bolters, spray them silver, hang them on some of your GHs for the purposes of this moron's tournament.

Take them off afterwards.

You win.

But, word of advice: If he's being this much of a toolshed now, that should tell you something about playing in his tournament. Don't bother trying to fix him, just avoid him.

yea i agree with phryxis if this has been a problem such a petty thing, more then likely there will be more. Id have great pleasure telling him to JOG ON

Just let him know of his error, and show him that they are indeed, WYSIWYG and therefore WILL NOT be used differently. If he makes a stink still, tell him loudly, that every other army should be forfeit as well, simply because they too are WYSIWYG.

agreed. they are completely WYSIWIG with every weapon they have displayed in their equipment list. i can understand that he might PREFER to have blood claws with bp/ccw and grey hunters with bolters in order to easier tell them apart. if that is the basis for his ruling, simply mark the units that are grey hunters some other obvious way (via shoulder/knee pad colors or even a grey paint blob on the side of the base). if that doesn't work, tell him to post on dakka where everyone disagrees with him.

I agree with everyone. They are perfectly legal and I see no problem with them. Wait have you ever wondered if HE had the problem? But that idiot sounds like a real whiney lil' piss-ass and you usually can't change people like that. And warboss is right. THE MIGHT OF DAKKA IS AT YOUR SIDE!!!!!1!!!1!!!11!1111

KingCracker wrote:If he makes a stink still, tell him loudly, that every other army should be forfeit as well

Agreed!!! very loudly and if all else fails wip out your power sword and smite the fool down.

I would point out where it is legal in my dex... and if he still complains then id tell him to shove it up his 4th point of contact. As long as the models are codex legal, you can mod them up any way you want.

screw him. Its wysiwyg, thats the best you can ask for.

Hell, make your next squad weilding all one handed bolters and bolt pistols, that will really piss him off....

Thanks for all the replys everyone! I will try and reason with him about the models the next time I see him.

You are wrong to not remove mold lines before painting your Marines. Flagellate yourself now. We'll tell you when to stop.

Glue a boltgun onto the models back.

jamunition wrote:Glue a boltgun to his face.

fixed

Look at almost all space marine players. Does every model have bolt pistols? Krak and Frag grenades? No, because GW doesn't give you enough bolt pistols to do that with the models. There always has to be a little leway with WYSIWYSG.

Show him the Models stat line undeneath the grey hunters section of the list...put your finger under bolt pistol.

Read him this quote from the grand tournament rules.

The army must be WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get). This means that weapons, armor options, and upgrades chosen from the army list must be shown on characters and a majority of the models in a unit or squad.

Ask him when you chose to put bolt pistols from the army list, because they come with them automatically, just like they come with bolters...in their stat line.

Dan wrote:So, ive reached an impass with someone running a 40k Leauge.

It isn't a 40K league. It is a map based campaign we are playing FOR FUN. You weren't invited to play it. Please stop crying about it to other random people on the internet.

Dan wrote:His claim is that my Space Wolf units MUST be used as Blood Claws, because the majority are modeled with BP/CCWs.

Two of the models in your entire army are modeled with a Bolter on them at all. Every other model that isn't those two, or wielding a heavy weapon of some kind, is wielding a BP/CCW. That leaves... 2 with bolters ever. So yes, a "majority" in this case is well over 90%.

Dan wrote:I modeled them with the intention of using them as Grey Hunters, I just greatly prefer the BP/CCW design and modeled them that way

Uh huh...

Dan wrote:, with the occasional "True Grit" Bolter/CCW thrown into the mix.

Two of them... ever.

Dan wrote:Grey Hunters have BP/CCWs as part of their wargear, and I didnt forsee a problem.

I've read the codex. The store owner GAVE me a copy of the codex so that SOMEBODY would be able to keep your gak straight. Your constant cheating has become somewhat of a problem in EVERY league you have participated in. You're not being given any leeway with WYSIWYG because of your horrendous past.

Dan wrote:So whats everyones take on this? Is he wrong to force me to use them as Blood Claws?

I'm not forcing you to do gak. I'm just telling you that you can't play.

Dan wrote: Am I wrong to want to use them as Grey Hunters?

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Aduro wrote:Are they armed with legal weapon options allowed by the Codex? Looks like it to me. I think your organizer needs to lighten up.

Normally I would agree with you, but not in this case.




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InquisitorFabius wrote:Lighten up or read the codex, all SW troop choices come with BP and CCW, GH also tote a bolter.

I'm aware of what they have. I googled around a bit and everything... although every picture I found was of Grey Hunters with a Bolter of some kind, and Blood Claws were modeled BP/CCW. *shrug*


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wyomingfox wrote:

Dan wrote:So, ive reached an impass with someone running a 40k Leauge. His claim is that my Space Wolf units MUST be used as Blood Claws, because the majority are modeled with BP/CCWs. I modeled them with the intention of using them as Grey Hunters, I just greatly prefer the BP/CCW design and modeled them that way, with the occasional "True Grit" Bolter/CCW thrown into the mix. Grey Hunters have BP/CCWs as part of their wargear, and I didnt forsee a problem.

So whats everyones take on this? Is he wrong to force me to use them as Blood Claws? Am I wrong to want to use them as Grey Hunters?

Grey Hunters come armed with BP, CCW and Bolters. So modeling a majority with BP and CCW and sprinkling a few Bolters is perfectly WYSIWYG. Nevertheless, it is his League and ultimately you may have to abide by his "house" rules if you want to play.

Right except he has two bolters in his entire army. not really a "sprinkling" especially when it is in 3 or 4 squads usually. Thank you for supporting my "house" rules though.


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DemonBunnyMan wrote:Hmm yah his league but guy needs to take a chill pill, seems like everyones thinking along the same lines here. You seem to be will within YOUR rights with YOUR army.

I'm actually pretty relaxed. I realize that everyone here is operating well outside the necessary frame of reference to understand where I am coming from. I'm sorry if I'm coming off as the 'bad guy' here.


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JD21290 wrote:The models are still WYSIWYG.
Obviously they will also be detailed as such in the army list.

all i see is a person who hasnt bothered to read the pups dex as it all checks out fine

As I said, recieved a copy from the FLGS owner for the purpose of keeping Dan from cheating. (Intentionally or not.)


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Wolf_Guard wrote:Id tell him to stick his BP up his whiney ass tbh, ive model'd my greyhunters with bolter's and ccw's for the simple fact they look cool as. The guy obviously fears your grey hunters which i dont blame him they are a mean force may i ask what he is running?

I play Eldar. Usually a Jetbike/Mech list.


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Phryxis wrote:Simple solution: Get some thread, make a sling on a half dozen Bolters, spray them silver, hang them on some of your GHs for the purposes of this moron's tournament.

Take them off afterwards.

You win.

But, word of advice: If he's being this much of a toolshed now, that should tell you something about playing in his tournament. Don't bother trying to fix him, just avoid him.

IRONICALLY I'm trying to avoid HIM. Pretty funny right?

Please man, don't get your panties in a bunch. If you bothered to read most of these posts and the SW codex you'd see that it is perfectly legal. And we don't take kindly to people who are ignorant 'bout how models should look/equipped. His models, his style of play. And I gotta tell ya, YOU sir are the one who sounds like he's cryin'.

You're telling him that he can't play, because you don't agree with his modeling choices. Choices that are JUST AS CORRECT AS BOLTERS.

Now I don't know anything else about the user except for the information provided, but I can with certainty say that YOU are being ridiculous by discriminating against him based on his modeling. Basically, you're a being dick. You are being TFG.

Munch Munch! wrote:Please man, don't get your panties in a bunch. If you bothered to read most of these posts and the SW codex you'd see that it is perfectly legal. And we don't take kindly to people who are ignorant 'bout how models should look/equipped. His models, his style of play. And I gotta tell ya, YOU sir are the one who sounds like he's cryin'.

You want to play with him? He is all yours. He has been NOTHING but trouble for all of us. I really can't believe he took this argument onto a forum on the internet...

I realize how it sounds and he CERTAINLY made me out to be the dick here and NORMALLY I wouldn't be so much of an donkey-cave about it...




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ph34r wrote:You're telling him that he can't play, because you don't agree with his modeling choices. Choices that are JUST AS CORRECT AS BOLTERS.

Now I don't know anything else about the user except for the information provided, but I can with certainty say that YOU are being ridiculous by discriminating against him based on his modeling. Basically, you're a being dick. You are being TFG.

Incorrect. Telling him that he can't play because I HATE playing 40K with him. It is painful and terrible.

His past is littered with questionable modeling which frustrates everyone in our group.



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Wolf_Guard wrote:yea i agree with phryxis if this has been a problem such a petty thing, more then likely there will be more. Id have great pleasure telling him to JOG ON

Well he sent me a link to the thread, so go ahead and let me have it.


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KingCracker wrote:Just let him know of his error, and show him that they are indeed, WYSIWYG and therefore WILL NOT be used differently. If he makes a stink still, tell him loudly, that every other army should be forfeit as well, simply because they too are WYSIWYG.

This wouldn't go over as well as you think...


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warboss wrote:agreed. they are completely WYSIWIG with every weapon they have displayed in their equipment list. i can understand that he might PREFER to have blood claws with bp/ccw and grey hunters with bolters in order to easier tell them apart. if that is the basis for his ruling, simply mark the units that are grey hunters some other obvious way (via shoulder/knee pad colors or even a grey paint blob on the side of the base). if that doesn't work, tell him to post on dakka where everyone disagrees with him.

If there were discernible features that would be nice.

You should have set up a poll for this, Dan. So much easier. By the way Roi Kuro how is it cheating? GH can use Bolt Pistols and Close-quarters weapons and this is perfectly WYSIWYG

Munch Munch! wrote:You should have set up a poll for this, Dan. So much easier. By the way Roi Kuro how is it cheating? GH can use Bolt Pistols and Close-quarters weapons and this is perfectly WYSIWYG

I realize what the argument is here. I understand that models can be modeled in different ways as per the codex. When I speak of 'cheating' I'm talking about a lot of other things that have happened in many MANY previous games.

In his last game, for example, he was using standard bearers in his army list without any models actually carrying a standard.

I must confess: Roi Kuro is absolutely right, before my models were what they are in pictures posted above, they were pretty horrible to behold. Thats why I've gone so such lengths to make them presentable. In addition, I have another box of unassembled models, which I will be sure to build with bolters displayed.

Roi Kuro: I never tried to make you out as a "dick" on the forum here. I just wanted to see what other people thought about the situation, and to make sure I wasn't being unreasonable about wanting to play them as GH's. I certainly dont cheat, nor do I ever intend to.

@Rio:Oh well that is a problem, but in no way should not allow him to play. Me and my gamin' buddies sometimes do this if we forget say, our devastator with a melta, well then what we would do is take a scrap of paper, right what weapon the bolter guy is reprresenting, and get on with our lives. This is not legal in tournaments but if it is a campaign for fun then you should give him some leeway.(hope I spelt that right.)

Munch Munch! wrote:@Rio:Oh well that is a problem, but in no way should not allow him to play. Me and my gamin' buddies sometimes do this if we forget say, our devastator with a melta, well then what we would do is take a scrap of paper, right what weapon the bolter guy is reprresenting, and get on with our lives. This is not legal in tournaments but if it is a campaign for fun then you should give him some leeway.(hope I spelt that right.)

I'm sorry lil buddy. If it were anybody else I'd probably sit back and say "Hey man, next time just make sure you get those standard bearers painted, kay?" and that would be that. This hasn't worked for me yet. No ruling/decision/instruction made by a tournament organizer has gotten any kind of respect.

He played several games without standards modeled, one too many games with spray painted grey marines with JUST silver and black swords, one too many games with unpainted models in an escalation league where the ONLY requirement to play was three colors...

It isn't just this one time... it isn't just this ONE thing.


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Dan wrote:I must confess: Roi Kuro is absolutely right, before my models were what they are in pictures posted above, they were pretty horrible to behold. Thats why I've gone so such lengths to make them presentable. In addition, I have another box of unassembled models, which I will be sure to build with bolters displayed.

Roi Kuro: I never tried to make you out as a "dick" on the forum here. I just wanted to see what other people thought about the situation, and to make sure I wasn't being unreasonable about wanting to play them as GH's. I certainly dont cheat, nor do I ever intend to.

Too late.

Hmm. I would disagree with using non standard bearing standard bearers (unless he gave me a really good count as reason), but since, here, he has done nothing wrong from a modeling perspective, i dont see the problem. He has armed grey hunters with what grey hunters are armed with.

alexwars1 wrote:Hmm. I would disagree with using non standard bearing standard bearers (unless he gave me a really good count as reason), but since, here, he has done nothing wrong from a modeling perspective, i dont see the problem. He has armed grey hunters with what grey hunters are armed with.

How would you model "Mark of the Wulfen"? Just out of curiosity.

Wait wait wait... First you talk about him cheating, but your cited examples are just of him not painting/modeling his army to your level of standard. Is that it? If that's the case, I could see why you would keep him from past events if his army did not meet the qualifications, but if he's picked up the slack and got him army to the expected level of paint and appearance, I don't know why you'd kick him out now.


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Roi Kuro wrote:

alexwars1 wrote:Hmm. I would disagree with using non standard bearing standard bearers (unless he gave me a really good count as reason), but since, here, he has done nothing wrong from a modeling perspective, i dont see the problem. He has armed grey hunters with what grey hunters are armed with.

How would you model "Mark of the Wulfen"? Just out of curiosity.

The one guy in my "counts as" Space Wolf army who uses this is dual wielding chainswords chained to his hands. I also point out to my opponent he has it.

Ah but we're not dealing with that escalation tournament are we Roi? He just wanted to ask if a GH squad equipped bolt pistols + ccw was alright because you said that was why you wouldn't let him play... But now your bringing in things about him not using WYSIWYG in games past. But unless your blind as a bat and can't see the pics, you'll see that he is trying to fix those problems on his SW.

Aduro wrote:Wait wait wait... First you talk about him cheating, but your cited examples are just of him not painting/modeling his army to your level of standard. Is that it? If that's the case, I could see why you would keep him from past events if his army did not meet the qualifications, but if he's picked up the slack and got him army to the expected level of paint and appearance, I don't know why you'd kick him out now.

Do I really have to go into every single example of questionable gameplay here?


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Munch Munch! wrote:Ah but we're not dealing with that escalation tournament are we? He just wanted to ask if a GH squad equipped bolt pistols + ccw was alright because you said that was why you wouldn't let him play... But now your bringing in things about him not using WYSIWYG in games past. But unless your blind as a bat and can't see the pics, you'll see that he is trying to fix those problems on his SW.

I don't have to argue with you here. I really really HATE dealing with this guy.

I'm glad he finally buckled down and paid to have his army painted. You have no idea how embarrassing it was before this.

I don't want to deal with him in a league ever again.

Well, if you're going to call him a cheater, I would use at least One example of questionable game play, rather than just a lack of painting.

@Aduro:Or modelling

Aduro wrote:Well, if you're going to call him a cheater, I would use at least One example of questionable game play, rather than just a lack of painting.

Ugh... alright. Once in tournament play he parked a Predator on a piece of area terrain which was about 6" long and 3" wide (Crashed Eldar Vyper). He was playing with a newer player that didn't know the rules very well. He then claimed a 4+ cover save for his vehicle being in area terrain. I happened to be walking through the tables and pointed out that he couldn't do this. He then proceeded to blow up at me about how I was wrong and how he got his saves etc. etc. I had to call in the FLGS owner to back me up (Regardless of the fact that this was MY league) it took well over 30 minutes of arguing the rule as it was written directly in the book before he finally relented and DEMANDED the game be re-started and he be allowed to re-deploy all of his models.


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Munch Munch! wrote:@Aduro:Or modelling

Chaplain Cassius... he took a jump-pack chaplain, removed the jump pack (Didn't add another pack) and then proceeded to call him Cassius. He was spray painted bright blue.

@Roi:Wait do you mean he took off a jump pack, forgot to add a regular back pack, and painted him blue?What's wrong with that? He could paint bubblegum pink and it wouldn't affect gameplay.

Ah yes... Vehicles in cover... I had a TFG in my FLGS who I had to explain to him EVERY GAME I PLAYED HIM how vehicles in cover worked. I finally kicked him out of a tournament for cheating, and he's never come back since. If this is a case like that guy, and not just a painting/modeling thing (i rarely paint, and model unorthodoxly, so it would be a soft spot for me) then you have my sympathies.

Munch Munch! wrote:@Roi:Wait do you mean he took off a jump pack, forgot to add a regular back pack, and painted him blue?What's wrong with that? He could paint bubblegum pink and it wouldn't affect gameplay.

Took off the jump pack... added nothing else... spray painted it bright blue... added no other color... and called it chaplain cassius... tadaaa!

I did in fact believe at one time, that vehicles got cover by being in area terrain. I learned something new that day at the tourny, and havent made the same mistake since. Also, I didnt "blow up" (though my vehicles all did! ) nor did I redeploy anything.

Heres the Jump Chaplain formerly known as Cassius. Ive gotten an actual cassius model as of two months ago

Aduro wrote:Ah yes... Vehicles in cover... I had a TFG in my FLGS who I had to explain to him EVERY GAME I PLAYED HIM how vehicles in cover worked. I finally kicked him out of a tournament for cheating, and he's never come back since. If this is a case like that guy, and not just a painting/modeling thing (i rarely paint, and model unorthodoxly, so it would be a soft spot for me) then you have my sympathies.

Yeah well... I just don't know anymore. Sometimes I just hate 40K because of this kind of stuff.

@Roi:So. I took a chapter master,got a power fist and terminator storm bolter, painted him white and called him Pedro Kantor. All my gamin' buddies did was laugh at it.

Dan wrote:I did in fact believe at one time, that vehicles got cover by being in area terrain. I learned something new that day at the tourny, and havent made the same mistake since. Also, I didnt "blow up" (though my vehicles all did! ) nor did I redeploy anything.

I remember having to leave the room because you wouldn't listen to me. I remember no fewer than three people having to explain the rule to you. I remember you arguing CONSTANTLY in your favor until you FINALLY relented.


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Munch Munch! wrote:@Roi:So. I took a chapter master,got a power fist and terminator storm bolter, painted him white and called him Pedro Kantor. All my gamin' buddies did was laugh at it.

That at least is a conversion!

If you took a chapter master and just called him Pedro Kantor and painted him black... then what would have happened? I mean with no conversion work at all, just... a black chapter master.

They would have still laughed and allowed it as long as I provided an explanation why he was equipped with, say a lightning claw and plasma pistol, instead of his regular gear.(He left it at home!)

Munch Munch! wrote:They would have still laughed and allowed it as long as I provided an explanation why he was equipped with, say a lightning claw and plasma pistol, instead of his regular gear.(He left it at home!)

How about in a league where the 1st place prize is a 65$ gift certificate to the store?

Well that is different. Remember you have to be specific.
If that is the case, then you should obey all rules and say he is a regular chapter master.

Alright, I'm another player at the aforementioned FLGS.
Having read through this topic, I'll say that Roi Kuro has a few good points.

First, it's his campaign. He chooses the people that can play in it. He makes the rules, as if someone disagrees and can't find a solution they can simply not play.
Second, there have been a number of incidents in the past.. let's say that tensions can flare up. At one point there was an attempt to quell, well, we'll call them "hostilities."
It was stated that the parties could feel free to play with other players in the store, after all neither of them own the store.. but they wouldn't play with each-other.
This eventually broke down, I can't recall exactly when, but circumstances had forced them together again in some games. Not great times were had.
Roi Kuro organizes alot of the games at our FLGS, and I'll admit that Dan not being able to play in those games is a bit of a detriment to his enjoyment of the hobby.. but some people just don't get along.
Compromise is the essence of diplomacy.. and when circumstances force that compromise to break, there's only so much you can do.

Right!
On to the point... those Space Wolf troops.
Here's how I view it.
If you dropped some Marines in front of me and asked me to identify them, I'd like to be able to tell with just the knowledge of what codex they're from.
Hey, there's some marines with bolters. Tacticals. They don't all (or even ANY) have bolt pistols on their sides or in their hands.. I know they're tactical marines.

Now you tell me there are some marines from the Wolves codex. You put in front of me a squad equipped with bolt pistols and close combat weapons. I'm going to say that they're Bloodclaws.
For me to identify them as Grey Hunters, they'd need a few bolters in there. Technically, they'd need only one bolter.. but I wouldn't be satisfied with one. I'd expect at least 50% of the marines to have bolters on their person.
Now, this is just me. It isn't my army, but I might be playing against them. I choose whom I will and whom I will not play against (in a typical game).

Roi Kuro doesn't want to play with Dan. This has been made clear several times.. and I've even made it clear a couple times (like in the agreement I mentioned earlier).
There have been a few instances where the Dan has frustrated a few people at our FLGS, including myself during a league game. Typically I am lenient, but when it comes to a game where I'm paying to be part of a league and there's a prize up for grabs at the end... rules are very important. I want to know that the other players are playing by the same rules that I've agreed to.
When players break that rule pact, it can foster dislike where there hasn't been any before.
Where there's been dislike already, it gets much worse.

Anyway, it should have been said earlier.. but Dan, it really doesn't matter what you do. Roi Kuro has made it clear that he doesn't want to play with you. This thread has only made matters worse.

Munch Munch! wrote:Well that is different. Remember you have to be specific.
Then you should obey all rules and say he is a regular chaplain.

Well everybody allows for some wiggle room when playing a friendly game. What we are talking about here is league play I think.

Its possible I was an ass-hat without realizing it at times. If that is the case, which it seems to be, then im truly sorry.

Ive played with some questionable models, like the Jump Trooper Cassius I have attached to my above post. I even went into a tourny game thinking vehicles got cover from area-terrain.

But Roi, what has me completely confounded, is that your refusing to let me into the league, well AFTER I've got to great lengths to get my army into shape. I even went so far as to make preparations for a really awesome looking Bastion, should it ever come into play during the campaign. Its already half finished.

I would have thought you'd be thrilled to hear I took your words to heart.

That's what I mean by saying that you should obey the rules in the league and play him as a regular chaplain/chapter master.

igotsmeakabob11 wrote:Anyway, it should have been said earlier.. but Dan, it really doesn't matter what you do. Roi Kuro has made it clear that he doesn't want to play with you. This thread has only made matters worse.

Im sorry you got dragged into this too.

If it was ONLY that Roi didnt want to play with me, I would simply let it alone. But him not wanting to play with me means I wont get to play with ANYONE, as everyone is going to be wrapped up in the Campaign every day for what would appear to be quite a long time!


EDIT: Perhaps it'd be better if we all sat down together one day, and talked this through, over a beer or two. My treat!

Munch Munch! wrote:That's what I mean by saying that you should obey the rules in the league and play him as a regular chaplain/chapter master.

Munch, I think this may be the beginning of a long and beautiful friendship.

Cool Avatar Roi Kuro!

Anyway, Roi: I would very much like to play in the 40k campaign, Ive been looking forward to it for some time now. If Ive really been acting like an ass-hat in the past, then im truly sorry, I had no idea I was causing anyone grief. Ive tried to clean up my act, get my models and my bastion ready, so if there's some way we could reach some kind of compromise, I would really like that.

Please Roi? Could you give him another chance?

Come on.... Group Hug!!

Aduro wrote:Come on.... Group Hug!!

I say put the gloves on and let us watch on Youtube.

Breotan wrote:

Aduro wrote:Come on.... Group Hug!!

I say put the gloves on and let us watch on Youtube.

Ah your one of those kids aren't you.

Thread has gone way off topic fyi. Take the hugs and cuddles to pm and work out your differances I say.

Honestly, I think all of you are being a little childish. Save that, alot childish.

Dan, find another group to game with. Don't even waste your time with those gentlemen if you can't even agree on what a marine with a bp/cc weapon is. (In all fairness though, really? Really???? As another aside, the current Chaos codex shows a group of marines with cc/bp's as "Chosen", which are also armed with Bolt Pistol, CC weapons and Bolters like grey hunters. So, obviously GW doesn't care as much as you guys seem to.)

To Roi and the rest, lighten up. His "proxy" of a chaplain as Cassius is pretty acceptable to me (It's a chaplain, and it's blue, and the Cassius model is horrible.), and his space wolves are grey. What more could you really want?

If you have other problems with him that aren't related to his mini choices, than just say it, rather than appearing to be a big tool like you are right now.

Seriously, Dan, find a new gaming group. That seems like it will make everybody happy.

Unbelievable.

What the OP Doesn't seem to have mentioned, at least not from what I can see, is whether or not he did anything to differentiate his Grey Hunters from his Blood Claws.

I mean, if you model a Grey Hunter with a bolt pistol, how would you know the difference between him and a standard Blood Claw?

I know the answer, and it's not a trick question...

Also, in a WYSIWYG tournament or league, a proxy is not legal.

Ah but in Roi's first post he said it was a map-based campaign for FUN.

Munch Munch! wrote:Ah but in Roi's first post he said it was a map-based campaign for FUN.

Right, but Roi has apparently had problems with the OP in WYSIWYG games as well. In a WYSIWYG game, a jump pack chaplain doesn't get to be Cassius because the player says so, it needs to be modelled so.

Ditto that with Mark of the Wulfen. There's literally a mark that belongs on the face.

I know, I said that a jump pack chaplain would have to be that; a jump pack chaplain.

whitedragon wrote:Honestly, I think all of you are being a little childish. Save that, alot childish.

Dan, find another group to game with. Don't even waste your time with those gentlemen if you can't even agree on what a marine with a bp/cc weapon is.

Seriously, Dan, find a new gaming group. That seems like it will make everybody happy.

Acceptable compromise.


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Munch Munch! wrote:Ah but in Roi's first post he said it was a map-based campaign for FUN.

Map based campaign for fun with my friends.

waaay OT at this point either solve this [retty soon or move this to pm

Fighting 8th wrote:

Munch Munch! wrote:Ah but in Roi's first post he said it was a map-based campaign for FUN.

Right, but Roi has apparently had problems with the OP in WYSIWYG games as well. In a WYSIWYG game, a jump pack chaplain doesn't get to be Cassius because the player says so, it needs to be modelled so.

Ditto that with Mark of the Wulfen. There's literally a mark that belongs on the face.

So big furry claw-hands couldn't possibly represent a models ability to have lots of rending attacks? Some bad-arse GSed "power" swords that look unique couldn't represent lots of rending attacks? I think you're missing the point of the game even having a modeling aspect. The BGB has a picture of a "scratch-built" deffkopta that doesn't even have blades. A space marine with the same gear as a special character is the same thing as that special character. It's not really that much of a stretch.

Is this a thread about models being modelled to tournament-legally represent what they are supposed to be?

If so, I think it has been made clear by a ton of people already that they are.

Or is this a thread about all kind of emo gak going on at your local game store?

If someone keep causing trouble, cheats or behaves like an a-hole then don't let him play. Simple as that.

TBD wrote:

If someone keep causing trouble, cheats or behaves like an a-hole then don't let him play. Simple as that.

That is exactly what is going on.

Roi Kuro: I think the problem here is that if you don't want somebody to play in your league, you say "I don't want you to play in my league." Don't start looking for excuses or justifications, just state your decision.

Saying he can't play because of some trivial (and ultimately wrong) WYSIWYG criticism of his Grey Hunters only clouds the issue.

The issue is that you don't like the guy, and don't trust him to play a fair, fun game. Done.

Just yesterday I played a game against a guy who had almost nothing painted, a number of proxy models, etc. etc. He's also a classy guy, and fun to play. Something tells me you'd have no problem with this guy in your league.

Honestly, all your criticisms of the guy seem less than reasonable. It sounds like all this strife starts with his painting and modelling. I play a LOT of games against people with unpainted models, proxy models, etc. To harp on something like that is unreasonable. It also puts the target of the harping on the defensive, so that when you start saying his vehicles don't get cover, he's thinking you're just trying to job him again.

That said, it sounds like all of this is just a fundamental conflict of personalities. It sounds like you don't want this guy playing in your league, and you've tried to pressure him out with nitpicky harassment, rather than being straight and saying "I don't like playing with you." And, honestly, I can see why you might not like the guy, considering that you're trying to brush him off, and he's still trying to get in on the league. If I have a hint that somebody doesn't like me, I don't want to hang out with him. If I have clear proof, even more so.

Guys, time to face reality. Dude isn't going to play in the league.

Roi Kuro wrote:[How would you model "Mark of the Wulfen"? Just out of curiosity.

Typically with markings similar to tatoos. Maybe in blue or red. It wouldn't hurt to have a lot of them.


take care

Roi Kuro wrote:How would you model "Mark of the Wulfen"? Just out of curiosity.

Well, probably with more ornamentation then other space wolves, maybe an emphasis on close combat, running legs, etc.



Can i put a shout out to any mods reading this to lock the thread? This is getting out of hand, and these guys should just take it to Warseer or somthing.

I agree, i think that this has probablyrun its course now, as I understand it there is nothing wrong with the grey hunters by RaW and WYSIWYG they are carrying thecorrect wargear for thier unit entry (as shown by codex wolves), however, Roi does not like Dan (or the way he playsat least) and so does not want him to play, end of.... right?

Should I press the alert button then?

igotsmeakabob11 wrote:Now you tell me there are some marines from the Wolves codex.

Yes, it is a different army from SM. SW don't have tactical squads so stop expecting SW players to model thier GH like tacticals.

You put in front of me a squad equipped with bolt pistols and close combat weapons. I'm going to say that they're Bloodclaws.

And you would have a 50% chance of being wrong for no other fault than your own.

For me to identify them as Grey Hunters, they'd need a few bolters in there. Technically, they'd need only one bolter.. but I wouldn't be satisfied with one. I'd expect at least 50% of the marines to have bolters on their person.

And per WSYIWYG, the BRB, and his codex, he would be fine with modeling them with BP and CC only.

Now, this is just me. It isn't my army, but I might be playing against them. I choose whom I will and whom I will not play against (in a typical game).

Except in any GW sanctioned tournement where by regulations you would have to play him as his models are WYSIWYG.


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Fighting 8th wrote:I mean, if you model a Grey Hunter with a bolt pistol, how would you know the difference between him and a standard Blood Claw?

Easy, BC have red and yellow pack markings on thier right shoulder pad. GH have black and red pack markings.

Fighting 8th wrote:I mean, if you model a Grey Hunter with a bolt pistol, how would you know the difference between him and a standard Blood Claw?

Easy, BC have red and yellow pack markings on thier right shoulder pad. GH have black and red pack markings.

Give that man (or lady) a cigar! I was starting to wonder if anyone was going to put the answer out there...

I'm a guy . But seriously, igotsmeakabob11, how the heck did you deal with SW in 3rd and 4th when GH WERE armed just like BC! Previously, GH were armed with only BP and CC (Bolters were an optional upgrade)!

so let me get this right, lets just say you know me im a cool guy liked by all members of your GAMING COMMUNITY ive taken grey hunters armed all with bolt gun and ccw, would you stop me playing in your games cos im cheating?

Roi Kuro wrote:

alexwars1 wrote:Hmm. I would disagree with using non standard bearing standard bearers (unless he gave me a really good count as reason), but since, here, he has done nothing wrong from a modeling perspective, i dont see the problem. He has armed grey hunters with what grey hunters are armed with.

How would you model "Mark of the Wulfen"? Just out of curiosity.

Their are alot of ways:

No weapons

Use 13 Co. Wulven Models

Use the wolf head from the new sprue

Tatoo his face, per previous fluff, wulven were marked with tatoos on thier face

As long as the model is readily distiguishable from the rest of the pack, then it is fine per WYSIWYG.


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Wolf_Guard wrote:so let me get this right, lets just say you know me im a cool guy liked by all members of your GAMING COMMUNITY ive taken grey hunters armed all with bolt gun and ccw, would you stop me playing in your games cos im cheating?

What happened is that Roi Kuro didn't want Dan to play in his league (his perogative) so he came up with a stupid excuse about his models not being WYSIWYG rather than just telling Dan that he can't stand to play with him.

This prompted Dan to ligitimately ask the Dakka Community if what he did was wrong in modeling his GH with BP and CC only. The Dakka Community correctly told Dan that it is fine for him to model his GH with BP and CC. It should be noted that Dan correctly kept the tournement runner's name anonymous; he didn't personally attack anyone. He has also been more than civil in the face of personal attacks.

Regardless, Roi Kuro should have just told Dan the truth from the beginning rather than coming up with a misleading excuse. Moreover, Roi Kuro should not have come into the DakkaDakka forum and publicly humiliate and lambast Dan.

wyomingfox wrote:Regardless, Roi Kuro should have just told Dan the truth from the beginning rather than coming up with a misleading excuse. Moreover, Roi Kuro should not have come into the DakkaDakka forum and publicly humiliate and lambast Dan.

Roi:

wyomingfox wrote:What happened is that Roi Kuro didn't want Dan to play in his league (his perogative) so he came up with a stupid excuse about his models not being WYSIWYG rather than just telling Dan that he can't stand to play with him.

This prompted Dan to ligitimately ask the Dakka Community if what he did was wrong in modeling his GH with BP and CC only. The Dakka Community correctly told Dan that it is fine for him to model his GH with BP and CC. It should be noted that Dan correctly kept the tournement runner's name anonymous; he didn't personally attack anyone. He has also been more than civil in the face of personal attacks.

Regardless, Roi Kuro should have just told Dan the truth from the beginning rather than coming up with a misleading excuse. Moreover, Roi Kuro should not have come into the DakkaDakka forum and publicly humiliate and lambast Dan.

Summed up pretty well. Thanks Phyrixis and wyomingfox.

The final say on the matter seems to be that Roi is unwilling to work towards a resolution, and thus the game will be played Sans-Dan. This is something that really saddens me, as I had nothing against Roi prior to this, and that it cuts me off from playing what promised to be a cool 40k campaign with a number of awesome people. Such is life, and I'd like to thank everyone for putting up with this mess of a thread.

Dan dont worry dude this guy seems like a ass and youve came across as a cool guy. Im sure you will find another group to play with who arent judgemental the fact he called you a cheater even tho you didnt know a rule, giving tht 40k has so many rules that arent so easy to understand to a beginner he should have given you the benefit of the doubt but oh well.
Good luck infuture.

As its been said a number of times, as long as there is some form of markings on them for the help of the oppenent then everything should be fine.

Im honestly wondering how so much drama can be had from this. Dont like someone? tell them instead of making up excuses. If they had questionable tournament habits before and they have since STOPPED tha is called learning and is a good thing. -_-

And find another group to play with, it will help in the long run cause when your playing with people who are relaxed you learn instead of getting your head bit off.

I have to agree with the last few posts. You played things horribly roi and came off as kind of an ass hat. I think you owe Dan an apology even if you wont let him play in the league for giving him such a shoddy answer to try to keep him out of it. It pays to be upfront with people.

And yes Dan paint the appropriate squad markings on them then model them with what ever you want. Its not your fault the opponent did not read your codex.

Good luck in your games ahead danny boy.

Dan wrote:The final say on the matter seems to be that Roi is unwilling to work towards a resolution, and thus the game will be played Sans-Dan. This is something that really saddens me, as I had nothing against Roi prior to this, and that it cuts me off from playing what promised to be a cool 40k campaign with a number of awesome people. Such is life, and I'd like to thank everyone for putting up with this mess of a thread.

It's probably for the best. You composed yourself perfectly in this thread, even after Roi stormed in like a mad grox and started flinging dung. It's understandable that he would be upset if you, for example, showed him the thread on purpose to attempt to change his mind, but he has certainly shown us his personal qualities.

Roi, the prize pool should have nothing to do with it. If you didn't want him to play, you should have simply said so. Perfectly WYSIWYG models should have nothing to do with it. If you didn't want him to play, you should have simply said so. Screaming in here like a schoolboy about 'Dan did this, Dan did that...' was silly. If you didn't want him to play, you should have simply said so, without making petty excuses and character judgements.

What Dan did was raise a valid argument with a neutral forum. What you did, Roi, was make a fool out of yourself. I don't doubt what you've said about him - I have, by strange coincidence, known a large number of irritating wargame players named Dan in my time. I'm playing alongside one in a team tourney next weekend. He's going to use my units as cover, I just know it... but I won't diss him publically.

Only to his face.

lol ye to his face, im still a total noob i dont know all the rules and ins and outs but i hope people will take there time to explain things to me not rant and rave calling me a cheater everyone must learn at some point and me being a noob i know how much there is to take in at once im very lucky to have the internet as Dakka members have helped me alot with queries and tips ive found my painting has improved dramatically along with my knowledge even though im still yet to play a game, but could sum1 answer me this are my greyhunters illegal having a boltgun with ccw every1 is armed like this but as they arent all painted yet it wouldnt be a problem to adjust?

Of course there's nothing wrong with having bolters and CCWs. Some of you kids may not have heard, but it's called True Grit...

kid at heart im actually 22 TRUE GRIT EH ill remember that one lol i just personally liked the look of it BP doesnt look half as mean as a BG with CCW thx for such a quick responce.

And this thread clearly demonstrates what happens when nerds take games of toy soldiers waaaaaaaaaaay too seriously...

Wolf_Guard wrote:lol ye to his face, im still a total noob i dont know all the rules and ins and outs but i hope people will take there time to explain things to me not rant and rave calling me a cheater everyone must learn at some point and me being a noob i know how much there is to take in at once im very lucky to have the internet as Dakka members have helped me alot with queries and tips ive found my painting has improved dramatically along with my knowledge even though im still yet to play a game, but could sum1 answer me this are my greyhunters illegal having a boltgun with ccw every1 is armed like this but as they arent all painted yet it wouldnt be a problem to adjust?

You could arm GH any number of ways:

Bolter and CC

Bolter

Bolter and BP

BP and CC

CC and pointing finger

BP and pointing finger

Just remember if you model a GH with a pointy finger, the head must be screaming...JK


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CT GAMER wrote:And this thread clearly demonstrates what happens when nerds take games of toy soldiers waaaaaaaaaaay too seriously...

40K is not a game silly...its a life style

NERD FIGHTS, WE DONT FIGHT WITH FISTS WE FIGHT WITH WORDS!
that being said you guys would go ripsh*t over my proxies lol....

Roi , you are a d-bag ..

But even though you are , if you dont want him to play , thats that . Dan , just find another gaming group , its for the best with tfg lurking around ._.

Gretar i couldn't have put it better myself d-bag is a perfect terminology :d. Wyomingfox thanks for the info always handy to know these things i feel the codex explains alot but not in enough detail for noobs like myself.

Ummm yeah, show him the dex,or don't play. If he still won't except the army after you show him the dex (as your army is perfectly legal) then don't play in his league, It isn't worth playing in it.

IIRC corrrectly all SW have CCW/BP. However someone may just presume on WYSIWYG and think theyre blood claws whether its an inoccent mistake or they are a TFG. Its absoloutly fine for friendlies but i can see that some tourneys might be a bit fussy, but as long as you tell your opponent beforehand, and perhaps models some bolters onto thier legs or something, they should be fine.

wyomingfox wrote:Just remember if you model a space marine, the head must be screaming...

Fixed.

I'm amazed no-one has raised any alerts over this thread, or maybe they did and other moderators dealt with them.

Anyway, it seems to have run its course so I'm going to close it now.

If people want to continue the debate, they can start another thread in 40K discussions, which I hope will be conducted with a bit more decorum and less gratuitous poo-flinging.