I just got hold of the new Wargames Illustrated (http://www.wargamesillustrated.net/) from my local newsagent this lunchtime and came across an interesting news item:

Apparently at the Historical Wargames group held at Warhammer World last month, Warwick Kinrade was demonstrating a new WWII game that Forgeworld are planning to release next year. Apparently it is aimed at 20mm or 15mm rather than 28mm and has a planned release date of "early on" next year. The mechanics are reported as owing nothing to Warhammer.

No comment about whether figures will accompany the rules, although it sounds unlikely looking at the comment about it being applicable for a couple of (admittedly only slightly) different scales. Could be the first fruits of Warhammer Historical's subsumation within Forgeworld? An interesting rival to FoW?

if only forge world makes the models, I'm sure everyone that plays it will be using the FOW models instead. Aren't they 15mm? Is Epic 15mm also? or smaller?

Forgeworld publishing the rules would put themselves behind a rock of thier own making. How can you hope to compete when your business practices dictate you don't sell via other parties?

Further, 15mm is a scale that none of GW's games are in. Why bother when there is already so much out there?

Necros wrote:Is Epic 15mm also? or smaller?

Epic is 6mm.

This is just an elaborate plot by GW to produce 15 mm WWII models then at a later date send a cease and desist letter to Battlefront for stealing their business.

I'd file this rumor away under "never gonna happen" or "not a chance in hell".

Now if GW itself did something radical like WWII figs in 40K scale with a rules supplement for WWII battles using the 40K rules engine as a base I think they would have a gold mine on their hands.

Imagine GW quality plastic WWII kits using 40K rules...

FOW superior GW inferior.

CT GAMER wrote:Imagine GW quality plastic WWII kits...

That would be awesome!

CT GAMER wrote:using 40K rules...

Oh, yeah...nevermind.

CT GAMER wrote:I'd file this rumor away under "never gonna happen" or "not a chance in hell".

Now if GW itself did something radical like WWII figs in 40K scale with a rules supplement for WWII battles using the 40K rules engine as a base I think they would have a gold mine on their hands.

Imagine GW quality plastic WWII kits using 40K rules...

Tamiya does them better. Tamiya does them cheaper. If 40K tried they'd get their heads handed to them.
If you go FOW level you have multiple competitors and rulesets for simple (FOW) and real math level historical wargaming.

To be honest, I find the FoW 15mm models to be a little lacking in crispness and a bit bloblike for my tastes. I prefer to game in 20mm (or 1:72 to be more correct) which is usually a lot cheaper as you can get very cheap and good-looking plastic vehicle kits and the figures of humans still are crisp. You can get some nice 15mm metals from the likes of Eureka though if you enjoy that scale. No need for FW to produce the models when they won't get any shelf space in GW stores anyhow as there are plenty of extant models. #

@GT Gamer. Nope, I think you're wrong. It *has* already happened. Or so the photograph accompanying the article would indicate. I have no reason to doubt the voracity of Wargames Illustrated's reporting. In the past WH have published plenty of sets of rules produced by GW staff "in their spare time" (e.g. the "Legends of..." series, which were created by Mark Latham.) I have no direct knowledge of the process but I suspect the authors are paid on commission rather than through salary so can afford to do it "out of hours". There is absolutely no reason why GW/FW should not produce a WWII ruleset when they already have numerous historical titles under their belt, most recently a set for WWI called "Great War". Warwick Kinrade is an self-acknowledged "tread head" so why not? By all means be skeptical, but the evidence is all positive.

What makes this article noteworthy to me is that it seems to be a totally new crfeation rather than an adaptation to a new period of a set already in GW's stable as it were.

Are you sure that this isn't someone mistaking them using the old 40K WWII rules that were/are circulating around the web?

I can just imagine playing Warhammer World War.

"My Tiger has Front AV14 to represent its thick armor"
"So what's the Panther have?"
"AV14 to represent its advanced sloped armor."
"So what's the King Tiger have?"
"Because the King Tiger has super thick and sloped armor, it has AV14."

avantgarde wrote:This is just an elaborate plot by GW to produce 15 mm WWII models then at a later date send a cease and desist letter to Battlefront for stealing their business.

I support this messsage.

Oh and to add to the chorus of derision of the thought of GW producing plastic tanks...

Can I link you to the popular 28mm range of WWII tanks produced by Warlod Games for their "Bolt Action" range: http://shop.warlordgames.co.uk/german-vehicles--crew-132-c.asp At around £16-£25 a pop they are much less than the price of GW's tanks, and made of resin to boot...



Lovely models, although personally I tend towards 1:72 scale myself. At around £5 a pop for a very detailed model from the likes of Italaeri and the like (or from rapid-fire.co.uk if you prefer resin at the same scale and a similar price) you can't do better for satisfying your tanky urges!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I have edited my OP to highlight the comment that the forthcoming rules allegedly owe nothing to 40k. Which fact only recommends them more to me.

It'll be interesting to see whether GW can raise their game to compete in the highly competitive but very popular "grown ups" arena of WWII gaming and away from the cosseting of their fanatical and oh-so-forgiving 40k fanbase!

If BOEING can trademark C-47 or B-24 I don´t know why GW can´t start their own WWII game and trademark Panzer II as a unit or Rommel and Hitler as especial characters.

M.

Ew, I see what you did there. . . .

Isn't Warmaster in 15mm?

I find it interesting they had to explain it wasn't going to be in anyway related to Warhammer.

I would agree that 28mm WWII would strike my interest.

I can just see GW's IP page now.... 'Hitler, Stalin, Nazi's, Axis, Allies, Soviet Union, T-34, Panzer, and Germany are all trademarked, and copyright to Games Workshop, and are its sole intellectual property. Any infringement upon it....'

This may make me look at ww2 for gaming purposes. Can't say I would hold much hope for the ruleset if they came from GW head office but historicals look like they play okay so maybe there is hope?

Maybe i should look at historicals point blank and leave the grimdark behind?

Would it be such a bad thing if FW/GW went in this direction surely the business would realise it had to step up with direct competition in the market place? They would have top be better than 'me too' with such a project..wouldn't they?

Ketara wrote:I can just see GW's IP page now.... 'Hitler, Stalin, Nazi's, Axis, Allies, Soviet Union, T-34, Panzer, and Germany are all trademarked, and copyright to Games Workshop, and are its sole intellectual property. Any infringement upon it....'

Don't laugh... Lucas did accidentally (or so they claim) lay claimt to the trademark of the word "Nazi"! The story goes that some Indiana Jones action figures were produced, some of which were WWII German SS soldiers and the like. In producing their list of the names of the figures they had "Indian Jones (TM)", etc, and "Nazi (TM)"! Didn't do them any favours...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr. Burning wrote:Maybe i should look at historicals point blank and leave the grimdark behind?

Never a bad move...

There are lots of WWII rulesets out there. One of the most accessible for former GW players (in that it plays a bit like 40k in that you need a handful of dice, you have squads and an army about the size of a 40k one, you have similar concepts such as "saving throws", etc.) is Battlefield Evolution: World at War (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/miniature/detail.php?qsID=1591&qsSeries=47. At £15 for the rulebook its worth a punt. And it plays ok at pretty much any scale. I play at 20mm scale on a 6x4 board, but it would work equally well with probably anything from 10mm to 40mm scale. Even 6mm on a smaller table or 54mm on a bigger one wouldn't be too bad.

The funny thing about this is that years ago when FOW was thought up it was presented to GW in hopes of them buying it I remember it's founders stating. GW said it would never sell, and now look at it. They are trying to form their own. Sounds honestly like a bad investment. Now if they went WW1 maybe it could swing as theirs not much out their on that.

I can imagine some new characters so GW can secure some IP.

'Hitring'
'Gorler'
'Churchgomery'

What special effects would these guys confer on armies and units?

(Shudder)

I don't know. 15mm GW WWII. hmmmm... if it was 28mm then maybe I could be in for some more plastic crack, but at FW prices it would truly hinder most from collecting. GW and FW should just stay out of WWII since there is already so many games that to it better and cheaper. If they did a game that was 28mm pre-war Indiana Jones or Pulp Fiction style game that would be better.

Maybe last time it wasn't right for GW to enter.

I'm sure if the board thinks it is feasible and they will have all the info they will green light it. Its a popular format?, GW need to give investors a return and by moving into different markets they can secure new business and improve on their growth.

Empchild wrote: Now if they went WW1 maybe it could swing as theirs not much out their on that.

*Ahem*

They already do!

Mr. Burning wrote:
Maybe last time it wasn't right for GW to enter.

I'm sure if the board thinks it is feasible and they will have all the info they will green light it. Its a popular format?, GW need to give investors a return and by moving into different markets they can secure new business and improve on their growth.

Or inversely take losses as they get shanked.

Problem is 'The Great War' is based upon 40k mechanics and suffers badly for it.

It'll be interesting to see what Warwick Kinrade can do outside of the 40k arena (where his works are so-so). The big problem is long term support, I don't trust Forgeworld or GW to give any.

Osbad wrote:

Empchild wrote: Now if they went WW1 maybe it could swing as theirs not much out their on that.

*Ahem*

They already do!

I meant miniatures not just rules wise. I understand a WW1 would be more to a genre of 40k but to a lesser extent so is WW2. A lost of combat in general in the 20th century was geared more to a squad/platton level in rl. This became very much more true to the point as the russian revolution ended and weapons/tactics finally advanced out of the old ways. FOW does a great job bringing to account the larger battles while keeping them at a level say no bigger then a company and I give them great pops for their authenticity and dedication to it. That said maybe GW could do a great WW2 but I would say it would have to be in more of a 40k format then 15mm being as FOW has really corned the market well on this with amazing prices, GREAT PRIZE SUPPORT for events, and all around amazing customer service. The way a certain company(to rename namely so as to not bash) used to be.

This was just leaked by my Sister's cousin's boyfriend who know 4 different redshirts.

One of the abilities for the Hitler special character is called "Crybaby Sore Loser" and he will kill himself if the germans are losing the game in turn 4.

No reason why GW should not make a ruleset for WW2.It's isn't an expensive or very difficult thing to do, and there are plenty of rulesets already out there which they can draw upon, including their own.

Making models for such a game is a very different matter. All GW models rely on being unique IP to prevent competition. Any WW2 players can pick form a huge range of vehicles and troops in scales from 6mm, 15mm and 28mm. There is no reason for GW to do models for WW2.

The problem for GW here is their proprietary scale model stuff.

FoW does 15mm, and players can leverage existing 15mm models.

If GW did 15mm, they'd compete with FoW, and likely see a lot of non-GW models being used.

So I can see GW going a bit larger to 20mm just to be "different", like 54mm Inquisitor and 10mm Warmaster...

GW's scale is only proprietary to the degree that it is made 'heroic' which basically means malproportioned.

They can get away with that inside their own IP zone of Spase Mariens (Hurr!!,) weird looking tanks, and so on.

I don't see it working for WW2.

Osbad wrote:I just got hold of the new Wargames Illustrated (http://www.wargamesillustrated.net/) from my local newsagent this lunchtime and came across an interesting news item:

Apparently at the Historical Wargames group held at Warhammer World last month, Warwick Kinrade was demonstrating a new WWII game that Forgeworld are planning to release next year. Apparently it is aimed at 20mm or 15mm rather than 28mm and has a planned release date of "early on" next year. The mechanics are reported as owing nothing to Warhammer.

No comment about whether figures will accompany the rules, although it sounds unlikely looking at the comment about it being applicable for a couple of (admittedly only slightly) different scales. Could be the first fruits of Warhammer Historical's subsumation within Forgeworld? An interesting rival to FoW?

There has been some talk about this on The Miniatures Page (TMP), and they seemed to think it was going to be 28mm skirmish. If that is the case, I'd be in, especially if FW was doing ww2 models in that scale.

If its 20mm or 15mm, and set up to have larger numbers of models, a la 40k, then I'm out.

No need for Forge World.

http://shop.warlordgames.co.uk/28mm-ww2-bolt-action-101-c.asp

I'd like them to go along the lines of what they do with Warhammer Historical: they crank out rules and leave most of the minis to other companies, which they gratefully point people towards. The Perry's sculpt the odd Historical model every now and then to coincide with new releases, but mostly other companies provide the minis.

Kilkrazy wrote:No need for Forge World.

http://shop.warlordgames.co.uk/28mm-ww2-bolt-action-101-c.asp

Totally agreed. Those, any of the Weird War 2 models, AE-WW2, etc. would work, not to mention all of the 25mm historical companies out there.

I also agree with BrookM that for them to just do the rules would be fine. Although, the FW model is 'cast em when they're ordered', so making molds for models that may not sell a ton isn't a huge investment.

I wonder if I could 'counts as' those Krieg models... I kid, I kid

If only they had sculptors who did WWII figures on a heroic scale.

This actually sounds like a done thing, but sounds like it will be rules, not miniatures. From wargames illustrated:

The Historical Wargamers Group, in association with Wargames Illustrated, held another successful event at Warhammer World on 24 - 25 October, WAB players from around Europe did battle across several campaign settings and attendees were treated to a bonus surprise appearance when Warwick Kinrade of Forgeworld demonstrated the forthcoming Games Workshop World War II game.

Warwick ran through a game in which a British Battlegroup stormed a German held position in Normandy circa 1944 - the British sector in Normandy being the focus for the rulebook. The game is designed for 20mm figures although it will work equally well with 15mm (adjustments will be necessary for 28mm). Interestingly the game seemed to owe little to the well-known Warhammer game system.

The game is still work in progress with a release date of "next year - hopefully early on" planned. The core rulebook will be supported by further supplements, which will include more army lists and (further down the line) more threatres of the war).

20mm = 1:72 = win!

I shall be interested to see the new 'non Warhammer' rule system, even though I'm not really interested in WW2.

Osbad wrote:There are lots of WWII rulesets out there. One of the most accessible for former GW players (in that it plays a bit like 40k in that you need a handful of dice, you have squads and an army about the size of a 40k one, you have similar concepts such as "saving throws", etc.) is Battlefield Evolution: World at War (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/miniature/detail.php?qsID=1591&qsSeries=47. At £15 for the rulebook its worth a punt. And it plays ok at pretty much any scale. I play at 20mm scale on a 6x4 board, but it would work equally well with probably anything from 10mm to 40mm scale. Even 6mm on a smaller table or 54mm on a bigger one wouldn't be too bad.

How would the rules work with my buckets of A&A: Mini's

As it stands, with all other warhammer historicals - they don't produce any miniatures at all.

I'd bet that any FW involvement is purely in the rules aspect. As they already produce their own army lists in the IA books.


The Warhammer Historical book : Age of Arthur was awesome by the way...

JohnHwangDD wrote:The problem for GW here is their proprietary scale model stuff.

FoW does 15mm, and players can leverage existing 15mm models.

If GW did 15mm, they'd compete with FoW, and likely see a lot of non-GW models being used.

So I can see GW going a bit larger to 20mm just to be "different", like 54mm Inquisitor and 10mm Warmaster...

It would be a shame to see them try and compete with Flames of War. Foolish too, the redundancy of a genre that is already well covered.

I'll throw in my vote/hope for a 28mm skirmish game. GW quality models and vehicles would be excellent.

I'd never buy their rules again though. You know the saying "Fool me four times, Shame the *^$@ on me!" (said while looking at four 40K armies, 2 WHFB armies, and a dumpster full of redundant reissues of the same crappy rules)

Interrogator-Chaplain Severus

Is the WWII market really big enough for another miniature line? I thought several companies already had figures out for a good number of years now in a variety of scales.

Breotan wrote:Is the WWII market really big enough for another miniature line? I thought several companies already had figures out for a good number of years now in a variety of scales.

He he. I'm chuckling at the number of posts from people who actually don't appear to read the original or many subsequent posts!

OK, I'll repeat it again. Read my lips people. No one is claiming that GW are about to produce WWII models in 28mm, 20mm, 15mm, 1:72 or any other scale. Clear?

This looks likes a new set of rules for WWII gaming which is being put out by a staff member who happens to work for Forgeworld. Forgeworld being the internal division of GW that recently took over the responsibilities of the now-defunct division of GW formally known as "Warhammer Historical".

This is no major departure, but simply interesting because it is (a) news I hadn't seen posted anywhere else, (b) a new period for the company's historical division to be getting into, and (c) reported as being non-derivative of 40k, which for many of us who aren't keen on 40k is a positive thing!

*wanders off chuckling into his beer belly*

The world is big enough for dozens of lines of Ancients figures.

GW don't make Ancients figures but they have two sets of Ancients rules.

I think if GW are looking at WWII they have missed the boat here. There are tons of 15mm systems out there and a good handful of 20 / 28mm systems. Rules of Engagement is a lovely set of rules and I can't see GW bettering them. The guys at Great Escape Games have done a hell of a lot research and made the system balanced and realistic, GW would over power it. In most WWII games Tigers / Panthers / King Tigers are rare and expensive, GW would allow buckets of them so that they can sell loads of models

Well, I think you are misunderstanding the nature of historical gamers. We all love new rules. And if it means we don't have to buy and paint any new figures to go with them, so much the better. I myself own 4 sets of WWII rules, but only one set of figures. Adding another to that list is no big deal.

The business models for 40k and for historical gaming are very different. Historical gaming isn't so much a case of being locked into a complete system (although Battlefront have tried to make it so with FoW), as a case of picking a period and scale you like and trying out rulesets to see which ones you like the best. 20mm WWII gaming has been around since the 1960's and isn't going anywhere soon. It makes sense if they have a staffer interested to earn a few quid by publishing a book into that market.

My one worry is in relation to the quality of the publication itself. If their production values match the quality of the latter Warhammer Historical publications (e.g. "Great War" and "Age of Arthur") then I'll be pleased. If they are as basic and lacking in imagination and colour as the Forgeworld "Imperial Armour" series I shall be severely disappointed.

Not only Warlord but http://www.renegademiniatures.com/index.html also.
The Perry twins sculpt a bit more than "the odd miniature" http://www.perry-miniatures.com/index2.html

Funny that one of their selling points is going to be "not-40k rules system!" (my quotes, not theirs)

They'll probably re-phrase it as Dynamic New System or something.

JohnHwangDD wrote:So I can see GW going a bit larger to 20mm just to be "different", like 54mm Inquisitor and 10mm Warmaster...

And look at how strong thaose game systems are...

I'd like 1:72 as I want to paint some 1:72 WW2 planes.

Personally I find 1:72 a marvellous excuse to dig out my old Airfix and Matchbox soldiers again.

No more GW products for me until they radically change. Flames of War sounds highly tempting to me.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:So I can see GW going a bit larger to 20mm just to be "different", like 54mm Inquisitor and 10mm Warmaster...

And look at how strong thaose game systems are...

I'd like 1:72 as I want to paint some 1:72 WW2 planes.

20mm basically is 1/72. 15mm is 1/100. Metal 20mm figures are generally quite chunky compared to plastic 1/72 figures. This is due to the way metal moulding works. I used to play Vietnam with 1/72 scale aircraft and vehicles, and 20mm figures. It worked fine.

Valiant Miniatures make WW2 polystyrene figures which would go perfectly with Hasegawa type kits.

Alternatively, any rules for 1/72 would be very easily adaptable to 15mm if they even needed any changes, thus allowing the use of FoW armies.

I forgot to mention that Black Tree Design are an often-underrated source of reasonably priced 28mm figures:

http://www.blacktreedesign.com/uk/home.php?cat=2517

To repeat Osbad.

Warhammer Historical got folded into Forgeworld a while back.

Since this ruleset would fall under Historical's banner, it is being produced by ForgeWorld.

I highly doubt there are plans to put out miniatures.

The 1/72-20mm market is fully stocked with cheap plastics.

On the subject of rulesets. I have a friend who is a Napoleonic player.
He has bought at least 4 new rulesets for that period in the last year alone.
And he already has a bookcase full of old sets.

Historical gamers are always looking for new rulesets regardless of period.

Because if you already have the models, all you need to do is read a book and you have a new game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, yeah.

Rick Priestley and Jervis Johnson just put out "Black Powder" rules through Warlord Games.

http://www.warlordgames.co.uk/?page_id=3177

A friend who only plays historicals is in love with the mechanics of these rules.

skrulnik wrote:To repeat Osbad.

Warhammer Historical got folded into Forgeworld a while back.

Since this ruleset would fall under Historical's banner, it is being produced by ForgeWorld.

I highly doubt there are plans to put out miniatures.

I was thinking this while reading this thread. This is sort of old news.

My thought is that, under the FW banner, the games might actually get their own unique miniatures instead of relying on other manufacturers which we all know they loath doing.

World war two is boring and played out.

ShumaGorath wrote:World war two is boring and played out.

I have a special level of hate reserved for people who say this.

Nothing especially useful to add, but was there a sense given of the size of battles (i.e. that this was skirmish, platoon level, company level)?

Happy for more rules and for WHA/Warhammer Historicals to continue to thrive. Also happy for use Peter Pig, Battlefront, Black Tree or whatever figs I feel like using.

infilTRAITOR wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:World war two is boring and played out.

I have a special level of hate reserved for people who say this.

Because it's still so cool after 80+ movies, 60+ videogames, 20+ television shows, and a wall of literature so tall it would blot out the sun. There's a reason "Modern" Warfare 2 is the biggest selling entertainment release in history. WW2 is old hat.

So GW owns the WW2 rights now because they said so :( Damn I hope they release a new edition of saving private ryan with space marines

ShumaGorath wrote:

infilTRAITOR wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:World war two is boring and played out.

I have a special level of hate reserved for people who say this.

Because it's still so cool after 80+ movies, 60+ videogames, 20+ television shows, and a wall of literature so tall it would blot out the sun. There's a reason "Modern" Warfare 2 is the biggest selling entertainment release in history. WW2 is old hat.

What really salt in the wound is most of the "80+ movies, 60+ videogames..." covers the same old ground over and over again while there's still a lot of the War which haven't been cover much at all and/or swept under the rug from an American perspective.

The mechanics are reported as owing nothing to Warhammer.

I wonder how much they'll owe to Flames of War, assuming this rumored product materializes.

ShumaGorath wrote:

infilTRAITOR wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:World war two is boring and played out.

I have a special level of hate reserved for people who say this.

Because it's still so cool after 80+ movies, 60+ videogames, 20+ television shows, and a wall of literature so tall it would blot out the sun. There's a reason "Modern" Warfare 2 is the biggest selling entertainment release in history. WW2 is old hat.

I'm sorry the only thing that is old there is the "America won the war single handedly without help from anyone" style of movie/tv/video games that are old(and untrue). There are great stories that are still waiting to be told. From the Canadian battle of Ortona, nicknamed "Little Stalingrad", to set backs and trials of the anzec's, to the jungle fighting in Burma, or even the tragedy of the Dieppe raid. Just because Americans running down Nazis is now boring doesn't mean the rest of it is.

Indeed. Or what about Finland doing the impossible and turning back a Soviet invasion? Haven't seen many games or Hollywood movies about that.

Also indeed, just look at the full list of WW2 participants:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participants_in_World_War_II

And think how much media and literature is still there to be made. The US and UK are vastly over represented. The most amazing conflicts are arguably kursk and bagration and they are extremely uncommon compared to d-day and market garden.

@Aga: when the Finnish film industry can spend Millions to make & distribute their WW2 movie worldwide, I'm sure we'll all know.

And that's what these smaller, less-rich players are up against.

Apparently, history is actually written by the winners with deep pockets...

BrassScorpion wrote:I wonder how much they'll owe to Flames of War, assuming this rumored product materializes.

Funny you say that, as FoW itself was evolved from a 40K adaptation. The writer of it (Panzer something IRC) went on to work for Battlefront and FoW was based/derived on it.

Blackadder wrote:

BrassScorpion wrote:I wonder how much they'll owe to Flames of War, assuming this rumored product materializes.

Funny you say that, as FoW itself was evolved from a 40K adaptation. The writer of it (Panzer something IRC) went on to work for Battlefront and FoW was based/derived on it.

Not really.

Phil wrote "Warhammer Panzer Battles", I think was the name. He was then hired by Battlefront Miniatures to write a rules set for a WWII miniatures game, so the company would have a rules set of their own to support their growing miniature line. A large percentage of BF employees are ex-GW. The similarities in the two companies have a lot more to do with mindset, philosophy, and ways of doing business. Much less so similarities in rules.

FOW and 40k/WFB share some things by design:

-Playable in a one on one situation in 2-3 hours with set army lists with points values.
-Supports tournament play
-Sells lots of miniatures, and the miniatures are the big seller for the companies, not the rules sets.
-Abstract rules that give a 'feel' for the story, but do not go into minute detail

Actually, the rules are more similar in design then that, though far from identical.

-Both share IGOUGO two player models
-Both use similar unit movement rules
-Both use linear scaled multiple D6 action resolution
-Both use a similar armor removal mechanic (AV v. AP)
-Both use a similar template/scatter system for artillery/ordinance
-Both use a point and slot based army construction system

While FoW is definitely it's own game, it is not hard to see the original inspiration.

Tresson wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

infilTRAITOR wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:World war two is boring and played out.

I have a special level of hate reserved for people who say this.

Because it's still so cool after 80+ movies, 60+ videogames, 20+ television shows, and a wall of literature so tall it would blot out the sun. There's a reason "Modern" Warfare 2 is the biggest selling entertainment release in history. WW2 is old hat.

I'm sorry the only thing that is old there is the "America won the war single handedly without help from anyone" style of movie/tv/video games that are old(and untrue). There are great stories that are still waiting to be told. From the Canadian battle of Ortona, nicknamed "Little Stalingrad", to set backs and trials of the anzec's, to the jungle fighting in Burma, or even the tragedy of the Dieppe raid. Just because Americans running down Nazis is now boring doesn't mean the rest of it is.

Same war, different set pieces. I'll definitely agree that the english speaking portion of the war is massively over represented, though I still find most areas of the conflict to be fairly played out by now. It's one giant story, with a lot of angles, but it's been covered to death in my experience. As for "stories never told", I can guarentee you that the south asian, sino japanese, and african conflicts are well written about. Though those stories certainly haven't gotten their time in the sun on screen yet.

As for the games workshop game, hopefully it'll be similar in scale to 40k (I can dream can't I?), then I wouldn't have to use the god awful GW IG tank designs.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Indeed. Or what about Finland doing the impossible and turning back a Soviet invasion? Haven't seen many games or Hollywood movies about that.

in fairness you sided with the axis..just saying (all love honestly it's a war and during war no side is right). Anyways shuma it disapoints me that you are taking that kind of stand on something like ww2 because it is our history, and a very important part of our history. When games based on history are produced the designers often take into account authenticity as a very serious thing. Because no matter which way you throw the dice people died horribly during that war. It is a historical genre and as such is approached at a different level then say 40k or fantasy or even idk monsterpoclypse or whatever it's called. Yes they may be minitures now on a table, but at one point they were based upon real people(hence the special characters in FOW). Hell even video games with modern warefare, and americas army are now incorporating current soldiers into their games as a matter of honoring those who they base these games off of. You don't have to like it, but you can show a little more respect or better phrasing next time when commenting on it.

You know, I would poop my pants if a company released a set of WWII rules for which 1/35 scale could be used!!

Imagine that?

Paired with excellent Tamiya and Dragon kits it would indeed be a pantsie-pooping event.

Hell even video games with modern warefare, and americas army are now incorporating current soldiers into their games as a matter of honoring those who they base these games off of. You don't have to like it, but you can show a little more respect or better phrasing next time when commenting on it.

And here I thought that reducing one of histories most bloody conflicts into a little tabletop figure game with plastic tanks that a couple of guys can "play" when they have a spare moment for fun was already incredibly mind bendingly disrespectful to those that died. Not to mention the profit aspect behind it as a product. So it's not ok for me to say that the ww2 genre is overdone, but it's ok for it to be exploited in toy form?

Obviously, it's not okay to overdo it.

But it's okay when they have karate chopping bayonet action!

Anything is fine as long as I don't have to see or hear the word "HERO" every few sentences.

Sorry BrookM. It's in the rulebook that Chad Kroger's "Hero" has to be playing, on repeat, during the shooting phase.

Oh, and the close combat phase requires Dropkick Murphy's "Barroom Hero". And I've even heard rumors that the Overwatch phase will require DKM's "Heroes From Our Past".

ShumaGorath wrote:And here I thought that reducing one of histories most bloody conflicts into a little tabletop figure game with plastic tanks that a couple of guys can "play" when they have a spare moment for fun was already incredibly mind bendingly disrespectful to those that died.

There is no glory great enough to be bestowed to venerate veterans of WW2 any more highly, and no ignominy black enough to besmirch the memory of what was lost and won. Trees now grow where soldiers stood and fell, the world's moved on from those sad days, and we should do likewise, not dwell on those whose bones have lain in the ground for over half a century by now. The living owe to the dead the responsibility of living their lives to the fullest, not bow down under the weight of painful memory.

To make war into a game is to rob it of its mystique and grandeur. It truly is a mockery, in both sense of the word. And none who play such a game can do so without being, in a sense, a sadder and a wiser man.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

To make war into a game is to rob it of its mystique and grandeur.

Their is by no means granduer in war nor any mystique. I myself have fought in war already as infantry, but I do see a level of respect for those that make it into a "game" because they are in a different style teaching the history of what has happened to the future. It is just a different way then putting it in books.

Reply by: skrulnik - click to view full reply 

6902

Forthcoming GW WWII game reported @ 2009/12/01 03:20:49

Post by: skrulnik

Funny, most of the historical gamers I play with served at one point in their lives.
A couple even retired from the military.
They are perfectly willing to game WWII.
Vietnam on the other hand is too close to home for a couple of them.
And I respect that.
I would not ask them to participate in gaming a conflict in which they had an experience.
But to say that a certain conflict is okay to game, while another is disrespectful is ...odd.

Wargaming has existed for a very long time now.
If it were so offensive, there would be a lot fewer participating.

Reply by: The Plastic Surgeon - click to view full reply 

18614

Forthcoming GW WWII game reported @ 2009/12/01 03:51:16

Post by: The Plastic Surgeon

WW2 Epic Scale!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kirasu wrote:So GW owns the WW2 rights now because they said so :( Damn I hope they release a new edition of saving private ryan with space marines

No that would be 'Saving Battle Brother Ryan's Gene Seed'

Reply by: Empchild - click to view full reply 

20956

Forthcoming GW WWII game reported @ 2009/12/01 03:53:31

Post by: Empchild

The Plastic Surgeon wrote:WW2 Epic Scale!

it's called micro armor.

Reply by: smart_alex - click to view full reply 

1656

Forthcoming GW WWII game reported @ 2009/12/01 05:53:44

Post by: smart_alex

This sounds like it could be really cool.

Reply by: physcosamatic - click to view full reply 

16814

Forthcoming GW WWII game reported @ 2009/12/02 09:32:58

Post by: physcosamatic

dam how much money does gw want? this would also mean less warhammer 40k updates and stuff :( not to mention it will eat up room in the whitedwarf mag

Reply by: Osbad - click to view full reply 

1270

Forthcoming GW WWII game reported @ 2009/12/02 09:52:14

Post by: Osbad

physcosamatic wrote:dam how much money does gw want? this would also mean less warhammer 40k updates and stuff :( not to mention it will eat up room in the whitedwarf mag

No it won't. It'll lie quietly in a dusty corner of the basement at GW HQ, only disturbed by fat old men with beards and a penchant for real ale. Much like their existing Warhammer Historical and Legends rulesets do.

There's no need for the 40k and WFB fanboix to get all panicky that any less than the 99.9% of all of GW's development resources they currently enjoy will be threatened.

Reply by: JohnHwangDD - click to view full reply 

5421

Forthcoming GW WWII game reported @ 2009/12/02 20:24:49

Post by: JohnHwangDD

physcosamatic wrote:dam how much money does gw want?

this would also mean less warhammer 40k updates and stuff :(

not to mention it will eat up room in the whitedwarf mag

All of it, of course...

And how is this a bad thing? New Codices only screw things up.

And if you don't read GW's advertisment rag, why would anybody care what's in WD?

Reply by: Anpu42 - click to view full reply 

18080

Forthcoming GW WWII game reported @ 2009/12/02 20:27:42

Post by: Anpu42

Delephont wrote:You know, I would poop my pants if a company released a set of WWII rules for which 1/35 scale could be used!!

Imagine that?

There is one: Gear Krieg
or at least their rules support 1/35 scale.

Reply by: Kilkrazy - click to view full reply 

299

Forthcoming GW WWII game reported @ 2009/12/02 20:30:42

Post by: Kilkrazy

JohnHwangDD wrote:

physcosamatic wrote:dam how much money does gw want?

this would also mean less warhammer 40k updates and stuff :(

not to mention it will eat up room in the whitedwarf mag

All of it, of course...

And how is this a bad thing? New Codices only screw things up.

And if you don't read GW's advertisment rag, why would anybody care what's in WD?

It is the constant churning of codexes and rules that screws things up. If the rules stopped changing and all existing factions were brought up to 5e standard, time would cease and the end of the universe would be upon us.

Or something.

Reply by: physcosamatic - click to view full reply 

16814

Forthcoming GW WWII game reported @ 2009/12/03 00:00:11

Post by: physcosamatic

true

Reply by: Osbad - click to view full reply 

1270

Forthcoming GW WWII game reported @ 2009/12/03 09:02:21

Post by: Osbad

Kilkrazy wrote:It is the constant churning of codexes and rules that screws things up. If the rules stopped changing and all existing factions were brought up to 5e standard, time would cease and the end of the universe would be upon us.

Or something.

So that's what's planned for 2012 then? I wondered. Amazing of the Maya to see that far in advance!

Reply by: Hasdrubal - click to view full reply 

22675

Forthcoming GW WWII game reported @ 2009/12/03 10:43:36

Post by: Hasdrubal

There are 2 types of historical wargaming:
- the point-based system, where you buy army on a budget, according to an army list designed to match with forces available at the time. I have no experience in FoW but this seems to be how the system is designed. Also think of DBM for those more into ancient-to-middle age times. Best for competitive (DBM used to have a somewhat confidential, yet still big community across Europe when I was playing the game).
- the scenario-based system, which aims at recreating a historical confrontation between forces (think the battle of Kursk, the initial phase of operation Barbarossa, etc.). Obviously this is more of an objective-based system compared to kill points sytem

I wouldn't be sold into a point-based system at skirmish level, however a scenario-based system would be cool.