We are all aware of Games workshops recent legal assault on every website that could possibly contain either actual offenders or people just promoting a long dead (out of print) game they spent money on and decided to promote.
While I understand that GW has the right to viciously enforce their IP, they also wouldnt be worried about the worth of these games if it wasnt for the hard work of the people who enjoy these games and actively support them on their own time. Time which I do not see GW rewarding in any way other than their actions saying "Even though we abandoned this as a lost bit of IP long ago, thanks for helping make the IP on this old gak worth something, sucker. Give me that before I sue your ass so hard you wont gak for a week!"
I have recently received a few emails, PMs and other communication regarding this issue for support I have done regarding space hulk. One person (who I will credit if he wishes to be known) sent me this excellent link to Board Game Geek (The Board Game Geek website is basically the mecca of not only boardgaming, but more and more with each passing day merely gaming in general. From seriously old to the new hotness.) :
Its a compilation of GW seriously grievous slaps to the faces of every person who has EVER supported their games. Obviously there are ways around this issue, and as we all know "You cant stop the signal".
Until GW takes steps to rectify actual IP violation through innovative means, they will continue to violate their consumer base who work VERY hard in promoting products (both old and new) that they not only love, but bought with their hard earned money.
In my not so legally informed opinion there is a very serious breach of not only common usage here but of common sense as well, one which is being over-zealously enforced to the point of threatening their own IP. If there is nobody to promote these games, then the value of the IP is surely lessened.
GW's beancounters and lawyers are classic examples of the old adage: "knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing".
So GW want to run things in a "business-like" manner. Fine. Then instead of a "fan" I will simply become a "customer". And take my custom elsewhere to another company that choses to place real value on my continued enjoyment of their product.
Clearly GW have travelled so far from their roots they have entered another country.
They have morphed from a company run by gamers who didn't understand business into a company run by businessmen who don't understand gamers, and ultimately now ionto a copany run by businessmen who don't even understand good business. Rule number one of good business: don't piss off your customers!
Well, dopey businessmen, do you understand this: I STOPPED BUYING YOUR PRODUCTS A COUPLE OF YEARS BACK. I WON'T START BUYING THEM AGAIN UNTIL YOU LEARN TO BEHAVE YOURSELF WITH DECENCY AND COURTESY TOWARDS YOUR CUSTOMERS.
Clear enough GW board members? I would have thought even a lawyer would understand the implications of that statement.
As an addendum, I really hope that someone stands up and challenges GW over this. They seriously have NO COPYRIGHT over actual rules. It is IMPOSSIBLE to copyright an idea (i.e. how to play a particular game), only the actual phraseology and artistic expression of the rules. So work someone else has done in collating and condensing rules is copyright of the fan who wrote it, not of GW and GW have no right to request its removal from the public domain. Obviously they have copyright over their own original artwork (but not over photographs of that artwork) and certain names can be trademarked, but there are easy editorial solutions to getting around that issue - i.e. take the names out and replace them with non-trademarked ones! And in any case, there is a very strong case that using trademarked names in a review is actually "fair use" and nothing GW can prevent.
Someone needs to stick two very large fingers up to GW and to make them get the feth out of work that is not theirs to claim opyright over!
Obviously GW want to retain as much control over their IP as they can so they can sell it on to 3rd parties. But doing so by actually claiming copyright over items that they do not have any actual copyright over is a complete douche move and something that deserves to earn them a kick in the nuts!
Wow, I feel I've had my head buried in the sand for so long.
According to the GW site, you can't even get a tattoo depicting their IP? Really. Would they really stoop so low as to sue someone for having a tattoo? Or, you can't start a gaming club and call it the 'Warhammer Club'. Really? Did they just hire a bunch of overzealous young attorneys trying to flex their knowledge?
This is sickening behaviour, this company is wildly out of touch with the ideals of good customer service or any kind of relationship with it's fanbase other than that of an abusive pimp.
They can issue more and more threatening letters to the very fan base that has supported them all these years, they can find more and more small indy companies to beat on.
What they do not understand is that those who are attacked are talking to one another and to the rest of us, because GW refuses to acknowlege the existance of the internet other than as a risk to their cash milking because it is 'outside their control'. Instead of seeking means of cooperation they seek to bully and cow the very people who have paid their wages for the last 30 years.
We will show them the error of their ways.
Make a stand, cease your GW purchases, seek out new games and new miniature manufacturers. Expand your interest, stop being a 40ker and become a WARGAMER.
Spread the word, fight the power, become the signal.
Spend your Christmas money elsewhere. I urge you to try new systems or alternative ranges but failing that, just get something that isn't a GW product, a computer game or a bottle of scotch or the complete DVD series of that show you used to love.
Deny them your money when they treat us all like dirt.
Navarro, seriously, you have the greenstuff skills to sculpt an entire range of your own bugs or work in conjuction with those nice folks at Trollforged miniatures to produce a range of 'Hivemind Tyrant-swarms' alternative 28mm heroic scale space horror aliens...
They *can't* bring back Judge Dredd and Rogue Trooper unless they pay thr licences to have the right to them again. I'm not even sure who the IP belongs to in those cases.
Howard A Treesong wrote:They *can't* bring back Judge Dredd and Rogue Trooper unless they pay thr licences to have the right to them again. I'm not even sure who the IP belongs to in those cases.
Both would be 2000AD/whoever publishes that comic.
Vladsimpaler wrote:Like what was said up above, I really hope that someone challenges GW on this.
They'd gone too far and now it seems that they're going the whole 9 yards. What's next?
Probably telling Dakka and CMON and Warseer to take down their respective galleries because it has pictures of their models.
:edit: You should post this on Warseer. Will probably get deleted though. :/
It will have to come to that if they are serious of protecting their IP, its only a matter of time if they keep going. and when CMON or dakka gets a mail, i quit buying alltogether and switch to other companies..
Howard A Treesong wrote:They *can't* bring back Judge Dredd and Rogue Trooper unless they pay thr licences to have the right to them again. I'm not even sure who the IP belongs to in those cases.
Both would be 2000AD/whoever publishes that comic.
Aye, but did the rights for the whole game revert back to them effectively allowing them to publish the game or do Games Workshop hold rights to the game mechanics while 2000AD hold the rights to the Dredd/Rogue images? Meaning it can never see a release unless one side buy rights from the other? I don't know, the same applies to the Doctor Who games and anything else they licenced. Anwyay, none of these stand a snowball in hell's chance of being re-released.
Someone commented on our club board that he hears they just renewed their copyrights, and a friend speculated this all may have something to do with that.
It's time we took a stand Dakka. If we let this continue, GW may decide that Dakka Dakka itself is infringement, and Lord knows that none of us want this great site to close down.
I'm writing a letter to Jervis Johnson right now, and I suggest you do so as well. I don't care how long he's been with GW, what they're doing right now is insanity. Soon, maybe CMON might not be allowed to have GW models on the site, the words Warhammer won't be allowed on the site, etc.
We as hobbists cannot simply watch as GW tries to control any and everything they can. They need to know that veterans and new players alike are mad as hell.
It's time we took a stand Dakka. If we let this continue, GW may decide that Dakka Dakka itself is infringement, and Lord knows that none of us want this great site to close down.
I'm writing a letter to Jervis Johnson right now, and I suggest you do so as well. I don't care how long he's been with GW, what they're doing right now is insanity. Soon, maybe CMON might not be allowed to have GW models on the site, the words Warhammer won't be allowed on the site, etc.
We as hobbists cannot simply watch as GW tries to control any and everything they can. They need to know that veterans and new players alike are mad as hell.
I agree with you except for the whole "Dakka Dakka being an infringement". There is a TM next to Dakkadakka which means that GW can't get all uppity over us.
So if they want to try and screw with us, well, they're doing so at their own risk! (I actually hope that they try so that they fail terribly. )
Seriously though, they are taking this crap a little too far. They get billed, hourly, for all the legal work so I have to ask where's the business payoff in bullying smalltime webboards that promote their products?
Howard A Treesong wrote:They *can't* bring back Judge Dredd and Rogue Trooper unless they pay thr licences to have the right to them again. I'm not even sure who the IP belongs to in those cases.
Mongoose Publishing have the rights to JD But is Rebellion who deside where Rogue Trooper goes.
Ok, first of all, the whole Tattoo thing is based on the fact that they "assume" you paid a thrid party to detail the tattoo on your body, this is the breach of their I.P, as it effectively means a thrid party (unassociated with GW) has earned an income from their I.P.
Now, it would be (practically) impossible to sue anyone for having a tattoo made, for one thing, they have the legal duty to PROVE you paid a third party to complete the tattoo! Unless the Tattoo artist was "stupid" enough to declare on their tax records that they completed a WH40K (for example) tattoo on your body, there is actually no viable proof a financial transaction took place......you could say, I tattoo'd myself, in a one off spurt of artist genius, that I have absolutely no chance of repeating.....job done.
So from an I.P point of view, some of it is impossible to actually police and even harder to take to court.
On the other point of continued support of GW. Well, its great that people are taking this opportunity to spread their wings and search for alternative products....whether that will dent GW overal output, is and should be neither here nor there, as soon as you break away from their strangle hold on your hobby, the freer you will be!
Kilkrazy wrote:
The JD board game was a great game, but there are other Judge Dredd and Doctor Who games and figures.
It wouldn't be hard to make your own set of JD if you wanted. The artwork is the big problem. The rules are very simple.
JD has is special to me because it was the first GW game I ever played, probably aged about 6. The first game in their Warhammer canon was Space Hulk which we had a couple of years later.
Kilkrazy wrote:
The JD board game was a great game, but there are other Judge Dredd and Doctor Who games and figures.
It wouldn't be hard to make your own set of JD if you wanted. The artwork is the big problem. The rules are very simple.
JD has is special to me because it was the first GW game I ever played, probably aged about 6. The first game in their Warhammer canon was Space Hulk which we had a couple of years later.
I too played many happy sessions of JG and SH. I had to let my JD go a couple of years ago because I knew I would never use it again and it seemed a waste to deny its pleasures to another gamer.
That's part of GW's problem. They don't realise that they are trampling all over a lot of fans' youthful memories and dreams.
Slapping fans has become a fine art this year. As you may know, GW US was very short-handed this year after slashing many staff positions at HQ and in retails shops, so they asked many of their most devoted customers who frequent the HQ store to build and paint models in support of Games Day 2009 earlier this year with the promise of getting to keep the models we built and painted after the Games Day season was over. I even provided free publicity for the Games Day "Big Game" with those models on BoLS where thousands of people would see it ahead of the event. If I told you how those of us who asked about those models after Games Day season was over were treated you wouldn't even believe me and no, we still don't have the models that were promised to us or anything in the way of an apology or other compensation. :( A couple of us have spoken to one decent fellow we know at HQ who's trying to resolve the problem for us, but it should never have come to this situation in the first place, that's no way to treat some of your best customers, especially those that helped you out in a pinch. If they expect anyone to help them in the future with a project like that they need to not mistreat and disrespect the people who already helped them earlier this year.
carmachu wrote:Someone commented on our club board that he hears they just renewed their copyrights, and a friend speculated this all may have something to do with that.
Read this.
And then also consider the fact that most of the Blood Bowl sites they went after would have been diverting traffic from the upcoming Blood Bowl game release--which Games Workshop is bound by their licensing to support and ensure it makes cash.
Put simply:
If the game didn't make any money, not only do they lose the cost from licensing...they can also be open to a suit from the company they licensed to.
Or at least that's my understanding.
Can anyone with any actual legal knowledge explain how it is that a tattoo of a GW trademark or piece of IP (they can't have trademarked all of their iconography) is something to get sued over? What would the grounds possibly be?
Perhaps they should go after the tattoo artist, who actually received money for it... but I'm guessing this whole thing is a practice jog for GW's junior lawyers... real-life experience in being unreasonable and getting away with it.
Arctik_Firangi wrote:Can anyone with any actual legal knowledge explain how it is that a tattoo of a GW trademark or piece of IP (they can't have trademarked all of their iconography) is something to get sued over? What would the grounds possibly be?
Perhaps they should go after the tattoo artist, who actually received money for it... but I'm guessing this whole thing is a practice jog for GW's junior lawyers... real-life experience in being unreasonable and getting away with it.
Careful, careful. Let's not debase the legitimacy of other claims, here. Read again what was said about tattoos.
Im just confused. I few of the slaps I moderately understand, but the majority of this is pointless. Fans have put a lot of time and effort into some of this stuff and GW just ripped it apart.
What the feth was the point?
Kanluwen wrote:They've never really gone after tattoos, as far as I'm aware. It's just something they put up there as a legal warning most likely.
I have heard (rumor so take it with a grain of salt,) that someone was threatened with legal action, and turned away at a Gw event for having some sort of IP symbol belonging to GW cut into the hair. GDUk i think. (again just a rumor i cant say if its true.)
I've already started moving over to Warmachine, despite the fact I love the IP and love the minis. I still have enough to paint for a long, long time anwyay.
Well being honest, I very much doubt I will boycott Games Workshop. If pp made several stores near my house, produced more diverse models, and much, much, much, much more fluff then I wouldn't hesistate to cllect it.
I can't drop 40k and WHFB altogether. I love the games themselves too much. I will continue to buy their models and play their games, in support of my FLGS (which is an independant stockist, not a GW store) and Maelstrom Games.
However, I won't be buying much for a while, as I still have three boxes worth of Black Reach Orks to assemble and paint. I might get more into D&D and MTG now though.
Not only is GW scared, they are scared to the point of paranoia and the beancounters are worried because "Buisness as usual" has pretty much turned into trying to figure out where they can keep a steady cash flow in by being penny wise and pound foolish.
As I took my step back from GW around a few months back, I took a drive over to my old local gaming store, that is almost as of now a PP store. GW, who once was almost half of a store full of product stacked damn near to the cealing, and had almost three rows of product in blister on the wall is now reduced to a 8X8 square. maybe 10X10, but on to that, Reaper, PP, Starwars, FOW, dungeons and dragons, and an assortment of Munchkins and board games have pounced into the nich.
GW is established into its own store, but what is to be said when that same store has a half of a wall of product that is out of circulation and is as of now irrelevent.
Blood bowel, which by the way GW is sticking a knife into is now being CRUSHED by this new game by PP named, Grind. !@#$ Blood Bowel. You guys really need to at least try Grind out. Its the dogs! My shop has a BB game on the wall with a 75 buck pricetag on it, (What does that tell you?)
Remember Necromunda, when we used to have a fairly good player lead initiative to continue the game? They stick a knife in that one as well. Now I can go get me an army of any thing out there with enough guys, where a box of about 30 bucks gives me enough to start, Without having to worry about the silly 50.00 terminators.
50 bucks for 5 guys, or 50 bucks for 30, you be the judge of whats the better deal.
Not to mention the up and comers that are stepping up into GW's nich hole that they have pretty much given themselves, I can see the buisness Metagame on this as likening it to someone using the buisness as thier own private income, instead of worrying about the shareholder.
You remember those fat initiative that they had a few months back? Guess whos paying for them, now. They played the tune a couple of months back, now the player, who is now getting wise to the chicanery, is now finding other alternatives.
GW is too fat. they can either do one of two things, either get back into the game industry, or they can continue to play with the old game of closeing stores to pay thier bills, while LGS's start rebelling and going to more user friendly companies such as FOW, PP, or Reaper, who not only give the shops thier space to work, they don't continue the gestapo tactics of coming in and trying to take over local markets with thier overly excessive GW shops.
Personally, I think we as gamers can stand to take a look at the big picture, now and then. Remember the great D and D situation? This is the same one, except with the millions of pounds at stake, this is a publicly traded company, and shareholders, if they are not careful, are going to be the proud owners of a turd by way of GW's stock taking the preverbial piss, and someone in that company jumping ship with the cash with a two finger salute.
I don't recommend a boycott. Quite the contrary, if I were a shareholder, I would be jumping on thier desks, and seeing someone about an audit.
Over the past couple of years, GW has been losing ground, while all the while throwing good money after bad on lack luster side projects, excessive corperate spending, and some very questionable upper management actions that , until now have gone under the table to the common gamer.
NOW, with the ongoing cease and desist phase, I speculate that there is something going on behind the scenes, and that there is going to be a reaction very soon.
Cheese Elemental wrote:I for one would support a more competent gaming company (such as Fantasy Flight Games) buying out GW. It'll never happen, but you can dream...
This is a very good possibility, seeing as not too long ago FF was a mere side show, and now have become a serious force to be reconed with in the gaming industry.
FF actually sells games, too. Not just makes money off of chasing fish for pennies on the doller.( cease and desist orders)
Arctik_Firangi wrote:Can anyone with any actual legal knowledge explain how it is that a tattoo of a GW trademark or piece of IP (they can't have trademarked all of their iconography) is something to get sued over? What would the grounds possibly be?
Perhaps they should go after the tattoo artist, who actually received money for it... but I'm guessing this whole thing is a practice jog for GW's junior lawyers... real-life experience in being unreasonable and getting away with it.
I'm not a lawyer but from my understanding, the issue over tattoos is with the artist, not with the tattooee. The artist, in taking money to reproduce GW IP, is the one committing the infringement.
But as was pointed out already, they're unlikely to ever actually do anything about it. I suspect the legal notice is just a part of their general 'cover our butts for everything possible' approach.
Hawkins wrote:I have heard (rumor so take it with a grain of salt,) that someone was threatened with legal action, and turned away at a Gw event for having some sort of IP symbol belonging to GW cut into the hair. GDUk i think. (again just a rumor i cant say if its true.)
If it is true, I would suspect it's down to an over-zealous staff member rather than anything to do with GW legal, or official company policy.
I've been lurking here and on B&C for years, but I have started painting again so maybe ill chip something in here...
GW- if any of you read this... It is the fan sites, like TearDown for example, that prompted me to come out of hobby hibernation and pick up Space Hulk when it finally came out. *** see note at bottom!!!***
I am a painter and modeller and not a gamer I admit, I had actually bought the original SH back in the early 90's, but never actually played it. But when this version came out, it was only because I played and enjoyed the Teardown version of the game that I picked up your actual product (having heard the buzz about it on a site just like this one). Without the fun of that little app, frankly, I probably wouldn't have given a toss about the SH09 release beyond idle curiosity. If you were truly business savvy, you would have not only hired the boys at Teardown, but had them produce an Iphone app as well! Imagine the business that could have been generated had that app been on the top 10 of itunes... literally millions of customers completely unreachable through your normal marketing strategies would have been exposed to an entry level IP. Instead, you gave them a nice 'F-U' and shut them down. Good job.
Most fan sites, even if they step on your toes a touch,are still promoting your ip's and potentially reaching out to audiences you havent quite touched yet. Or, keeping the flame alive for fans of OOP games (which in turn keeps them interested in a hobby that can very quickly turn invisible without active effort to go to the store, or look online. It's not hard to avoid GW in day to day life lol). A fan site, like Dakka, has new content, discussions and ideas to absorb everyday, something your corporate sites don't offer. And weather it's positive or negative, it is participation in your world of products. Any press is good press right?
TBH I have enjoyed the whole process of looking for more missions and rules for SH... and I haven't even played a game yet (neurotic about wanting to paint all the minis first, but unfortunately/fortunately I am a pretty advanced painter lol). It is the excitement of fellow enthusiasts putting out this new content that keeps me motivated getting through the 100's of hours of painting I have left. You released this game and then stopped supporting it immediately with only 12 missions... That's not a whole ton of content to chew on for years on end. Without the talk and excitement of my fellow fans, I may have gotten bored and quite after 4 or 5 8 hour stealers.
I agree with the united consensus of this board that not only are you insulting, and potentially alienating your most devoted fans, but you are in fact acting in a fashion that is directly detrimental to gaining new fans as well.
I highly suggest you reconsider your new approach to both legal dealings with fansites as well as your current rumor policy. No one wants you guys to be robbed or be the victims of people selling what doesnt belong to them... But killing the creativity and imagination, not to mention the enthusiasm, of your fanbase is counter to the very qualities you desire of the demographic you wish to sell to.
Hopefully there are still some people at your organization who are fans of your product, and not just looking to streamline profits using extremely dry corporate tactics. Wouldn't be surprised if half your financial decision makers couldnt even name a space marine chapter.
BIG SIDE NOTE: GW still has SH in stock for online ordering, you can no longer navigate to the order page within the current site architecture, but, IF you google space hulk, the true link to purchase shows up in the search... i found it, 2 weeks ago, took a shot and ordered it, not wanting to pay the slowed fees on ebay for a copy... and guess what, I got it, no questions asked, original price... OOP my a$$.
Arctik_Firangi wrote:Can anyone with any actual legal knowledge explain how it is that a tattoo of a GW trademark or piece of IP (they can't have trademarked all of their iconography) is something to get sued over? What would the grounds possibly be?
Perhaps they should go after the tattoo artist, who actually received money for it... but I'm guessing this whole thing is a practice jog for GW's junior lawyers... real-life experience in being unreasonable and getting away with it.
I'm not a lawyer but from my understanding, the issue over tattoos is with the artist, not with the tattooee. The artist, in taking money to reproduce GW IP, is the one committing the infringement.
But as was pointed out already, they're unlikely to ever actually do anything about it. I suspect the legal notice is just a part of their general 'cover our butts for everything possible' approach.
Hawkins wrote:I have heard (rumor so take it with a grain of salt,) that someone was threatened with legal action, and turned away at a Gw event for having some sort of IP symbol belonging to GW cut into the hair. GDUk i think. (again just a rumor i cant say if its true.)
If it is true, I would suspect it's down to an over-zealous staff member rather than anything to do with GW legal, or official company policy.
I wonder how that guy that had the Chaos warror painting tattoo all over his back feels right now...
Ok, so, we all know GW as a rule ignores email complaints, mail order trolls don't/cant listen to them and normally the only way they remotely pay exact attention is via the old fashioned pen and paper. - Robin Cruddace specifically mentioned at Games Day that he's read the assorted tyranid letters (specifically mentioning spore mine and lictor issues) and have taken them into account. So someone reads them somewhere.
In any case because of this and the other assorted recently-annoying-things it's gotten to the point to me, that I'm starting to consider writing one.
The question is, who to? part of my annoyance was about white dwarf, however this months editorial has pretty much shot that idea out of the water - Mark Latham addresses a vast amount of my issues with the magazine there! Then of course, being in a good mood about GW cause of this months mag, I start looking into this thread, and that good will goes poof.
I'm rambling. Anyway, think Jervis Johnston, Games Workshop Willow Road etc etc would be the most logical choice, factoring in all things (likelihood of immediate binning, secretary handing off etc).
Anyone else got thoughts?
Incidently, I did find a load of second class stamps that I'd forgotten about....
Many of the GW files purged from BGG I have already 'archived', so the loss is not great from my POV. People will just have to do what they did pre-web if they want copies. Contact other people.
I spent my birthday money on Old Crow models (awesome casts and quality, btw), my christmas money will be spent on Infinity.
Hellfury wrote:@ MajotTom11, thats a great first post. Welcome to Dakka. We could use more quality signal versus the noise ratio around here.
And we could also use a lot less of these styled threads.
Spending a little more time reading out the link in the OP:
Several of the things he complains about being forced to remove are things that GW actually did under license(Judge Dredd and Rogue Trooper off the top of my head, along with the War of the Rings related rules "erratas", etc that he wrote), things that GW own(Mordheim, Advanced Space Crusade, Doom of the Eldar, etc), or just the fact that the IP protection could be running out, like we've discussed in the dozen other threads on this same friggin' topic for almost a month now.
It's time we took a stand Dakka. If we let this continue, GW may decide that Dakka Dakka itself is infringement, and Lord knows that none of us want this great site to close down.
I'm writing a letter to Jervis Johnson right now, and I suggest you do so as well. I don't care how long he's been with GW, what they're doing right now is insanity. Soon, maybe CMON might not be allowed to have GW models on the site, the words Warhammer won't be allowed on the site, etc.
We as hobbists cannot simply watch as GW tries to control any and everything they can. They need to know that veterans and new players alike are mad as hell.
i will definatly wirte a letter, i just need JJ 's info.
if dakka gets hit we pool our resources and give them the proverbial.
I'm not a GW apologist, but I don't understand the outrage over this. Do you really think GW gives a fig about how much time and money you've spent as an individual on their product. Great that you love whatever fringe game or specialist game or faction or whatever that they no longer support that breaks your heart, but what makes you think that they realistically can or should care about that? Despite the human psychological need to believe that everyone or most everyone agrees with us it's simply not the case.
Most people don't care, the ugly truth is the angry voices on internet forums like this one are the minority. It isn't that the majority silently supports stuff like this, it's just that they don't care and won't care no matter how much you want them to. I think most of them just want to play the game and will continue to do so regardless of what GW does.
Maybe it's just that I made my peace with GW acting like a business a long time ago. I deal with price increases by only spending money on things I really want. Yeah, their recent efforts at IP protection are short-sighted, but even though I spend alot of time gaming it just isn't that important to me personally. If I want to be outraged and rail againt corporate thinking I can find many more worthy examples than heavy-handed IP protection and Cease and Desist letters. I spent a long time lurking on this board because I didn't like getting drawn into discussions like this, but at some point should someone ask everyone to take a deep breath and react to this as they feel is best and not start treating it like it must be the first act in some player-led revolution to reclaim the games we love. Buy GW's product or not, but don't pretend like giving your money to Privateer or Battlefront or Infinity is taking some kind of moral stand. Wait a few years and see what those companies look like, especially Privateer and Battlefront even though I love their games. Don't be surprised if it isn't that different from GW.
It's time we took a stand Dakka. If we let this continue, GW may decide that Dakka Dakka itself is infringement, and Lord knows that none of us want this great site to close down.
I'm writing a letter to Jervis Johnson right now, and I suggest you do so as well. I don't care how long he's been with GW, what they're doing right now is insanity. Soon, maybe CMON might not be allowed to have GW models on the site, the words Warhammer won't be allowed on the site, etc.
We as hobbists cannot simply watch as GW tries to control any and everything they can. They need to know that veterans and new players alike are mad as hell.
I will definatly wirte a letter, i just need JJ 's info.
if dakka gets hit we pool our resources and give them the proverbial.
This is bigger fantasy than Warhammer. First, it's definitely, the root word is finite. Why do half the people on game forums now think that the word definitely has an "a" in it? Second, JJ likely has little to nothing to do with IP and copyright protection, corporations have lawyers and managers just for that. JJ is in games development. Third, GW has more lawyers and deeper pockets than the people you'll get to pool resources on a forum.
There is some genuine cause for alarm and concern on the part of fans due to GW's behavior of late, but if we're going to have discussions like this about it can we at least stay in the realm of the plausible or realistic or rational.
Honestly Kanluwen I thought you understood the issue wasn't with GW protecting their IP, but the way its been handled in general. Calling a stop to reasonable discussion on the issue that is interesting to hear and adding to the whole issue discussion doesn't sound constructive.
Cheers for your perspective Brassscorpion. Its tragic to hear that people have been burned, but hopefully its the kind of thing that comes back to bite them in their IP correct tattoed A$$.
Quite funnily the issue of the tattooes came up at the start of the BB cease and desist fiasco with a prominent Bloodbowl figure: DoubleSkulls having the skull/skull dice tattoo'ed on his rectum. His response was quite eloquent...
Grimhowl wrote:I'm not a GW apologist, but I don't understand the outrage over this. Do you really think GW gives a fig about how much time and money you've spent as an individual on their product. Great that you love whatever fringe game or specialist game or faction or whatever that they no longer support that breaks your heart, but what makes you think that they realistically can or should care about that? Despite the human psychological need to believe that everyone or most everyone agrees with us it's simply not the case.
Most people don't care, the ugly truth is the angry voices on internet forums like this one are the minority. It isn't that the majority silently supports stuff like this, it's just that they don't care and won't care no matter how much you want them to. I think most of them just want to play the game and will continue to do so regardless of what GW does.
Maybe it's just that I made my peace with GW acting like a business a long time ago. I deal with price increases by only spending money on things I really want. Yeah, their recent efforts at IP protection are short-sighted, but even though I spend alot of time gaming it just isn't that important to me personally. If I want to be outraged and rail againt corporate thinking I can find many more worthy examples than heavy-handed IP protection and Cease and Desist letters. I spent a long time lurking on this board because I didn't like getting drawn into discussions like this, but at some point should someone ask everyone to take a deep breath and react to this as they feel is best and not start treating it like it must be the first act in some player-led revolution to reclaim the games we love. Buy GW's product or not, but don't pretend like giving your money to Privateer or Battlefront or Infinity is taking some kind of moral stand. Wait a few years and see what those companies look like, especially Privateer and Battlefront even though I love their games. Don't be surprised if it isn't that different from GW.
This is good.
However, the majority DOES NOT support anymore. As for gamers, Gamers are doing what Gamers do. If the game gets too expensive, they jump the boat, if they even stay that long. Remember who the primary market for GW is? More or less from 8 to 18, and if there are those that are older, then they are just an added bonus. We old farts are not the primary market. We are secondary. They already HAVE our money. They have a thought process that we will do what we are told, in much the same way as they teach in thier sales seminars.. (oop! we better not talk about that, yet! )
As for the "Not Care", I see that target audience group as apathetic until the crunch starts to directly and relevently effect thier personal games, and at that age, who really pays attention to a minor inconvenience, even in this day and age. An example will be the rise in price, because the market is being drawn to other avenues of gaming.
Most of us here are experienced gamers. We've seen things like this before, but not from GW going to the extent that they are effecting general gaming discussions on the internet. In a nutshell, they are trying to heard cats. I go so far as to even say that they are going to do this to the wrong one, pretty soon and we will soon be seeing this ending up in the buisness news. CONTRARY TO POPULAR BELIEF, I put it out there that 95% of GW's lawyer antics work out of intimidation. I throw it out there that GW can't afford a drawn out legal battle in that it will ultimatly play itself out in the public opinion, and very quickly end up turning on them and affecting thier bottom line.
Who is going to support a company that turns on you for discussing thier product on the internet? And what about when you get on your discussion borads and discuss the way you were treated at that point, ( such is the case of what is transpiring here and at other sites.)
There is a point in which the "Party Line" is not part of the party anymore.
Even now with the voices of dissent out there already PO'd off about this situation, how many people do you think are going to stop playing GW games, even by the tone of this conversation, I can assure you that there will be a significant drop in sales. Even if they sell more video games, that small opinion of being betrayed is going to quickly find itself voiced, and revoiced. People are going to continue to play the game, sure, and they will continue to hook more preteens to fill the thinning ranks, but there is a breaking point. And yes, it is betrayal. These rabid fans don't care about internal stuff of buisness, IP discussions, or anything other then the quick fast and a hurry simple, "I played this game for this many years, and THIS is how this company pays me back for my loyalty.."
Yes it is a business. Yes they are trying to shore up thier property being distributed over the internet free of charge. Yes the so called IP is out of production, but that doesn't amount to a hill of beans when your already distributed property is running the risk of gutting your bottom line when you lose that IP because you didn't do anything about it.
Look at the company and find out what thier 5 year plan is. Ask yourself, with the advent of the video game, computer, and continuing market development, do you think this company can stay relevent when thier money making games are out there, free of charge, and they are going to lose thier right to call this GW's IP?
I say, no. They won't survive very long in the marketplace, and not the way the economy is right now.
You all can Protest, write letters, tell them they are bad, and all that, but the bottom line is that This is a buisness, and they have entirely too many cost to profit margins that they are trying to cover, and losing themselves more then just real money in thier current actions.
You won't have to worry about protests when they start getting rid of REAL assets, like FW, or Black Library when they start jumping ship and fending for themselves.
Grot 6 wrote:
Even now with the voices of dissent out there already PO'd off about this situation, how many people do you think are going to stop playing GW games, even by the tone of this conversation, I can assure you that there will be a significant drop in sales.
I dont think many will stop playing GW games. But if their anything like me, they'll stop(or like me have stopped for almost 2 years) buying. I can easily play 40k for years to come with what I have already. I need to sell a few things off in fact.
*shrug*
GW itself is irrelevant to my fun. And irrelvant to my purchases, as they are going to other places now. And have been for a year and a half.
Could always just make a dummy company and have that company be the one registering domains and creating websites
Its why business owners set up LLCs so that their personal assets cant be taken in any kind of suit.
Set up a small LLC.. And then dont give a damn about lawsuits.. The business has no assets
Just dismantle the business and restart another one..
I dont understand why people are trying to fight fair against GW when they have more resources.. Guerilla warfare is the only way to beat them.. Give them so many targets and so many assetless companies to go after they have no choice but to give up
Grot 6 wrote:Look at the company and find out what thier 5 year plan is. Ask yourself, with the advent of the video game, computer, and continuing market development, do you think this company can stay relevent when thier money making games are out there, free of charge, and they are going to lose thier right to call this GW's IP?
I say, no. They won't survive very long in the marketplace, and not the way the economy is right now.
I would love to see some of these organizations stand up to GW, if for no other reason than it would cost them between $1-10million and years to prosecute. If what some people are saying is true (and I highly doubt that GW owns outright rights to Judge Dredd for one), then they would be able to fight it and even win; winning would possibly mean that GW would have to pay the winner's legal costs on top of their own. 10 of such lost lawsuits would mean they could kiss their bottom line gone. They don't have the capital to fight endless lawsuits (IRAA they are not).
Here's a link that'll give you an idea; it's for patent suits but similar costs would come of an IP case. http://www.inventionstatistics.com/Patent_Litigation_Costs.html
We all know that bullying works in the short term but it will eventually come back around and cost more in the long run. Seriously, after all the publicity, legal battles, and many victories; the music industry is not any richer for it and the downloading of music is even more prevalent than it was before it all started.
Some guy with middling greenstuff skills and a garage set-up could alter some GW figs just enough to cause reasonable doubt that it ever was a GW fig and he could sell thousands of homebrew figs with a different label. I fail to see how that's any different than their ex-employees going to other companies and sculpting the same type of figs. We all know people are going to buy these cheaper, better looking figs and add them to their 40k or fantasy army but GW can't prove any misfeasance so they just chew their cud and take it like the cows they are.
Anywho, we can all sit here and postulate but nothing's going to change until something tips everything over an edge (or not).
I think that everything points that GW will soon change its name to Toys Workshop. The Board its trying (IMHO) to change GW´s business model in something akin to the big toy companies that get something flashy from a movie, videogame... and market it to the teenager segment and then move on to the next big splash release leaving almost without support the older releases.
At least this is how it looks to me. GW´s releases a codex with a number of miniatures while ignoring all the other armies and after the first rush to get all the new shinny things they simply forget about any follow ups and start working in the next codex.
Miguelsan wrote:I think that everything points that GW will soon change its name to Toys Workshop. The Board its trying (IMHO) to change GW´s business model in something akin to the big toy companies that get something flashy from a movie, videogame... and market it to the teenager segment and then move on to the next big splash release leaving almost without support the older releases.
At least this is how it looks to me. GW´s releases a codex with a number of miniatures while ignoring all the other armies and after the first rush to get all the new shinny things they simply forget about any follow ups and start working in the next codex.
M.
While I agree with you over what appears to be their demographic/marketing angle, I do think there is still a strong modeling side to the company. They are very quick to point out it's 'The Hobby' in financial reviews, interviews and literature. When they stop making hobby centric products, such as paint, terrain, etc and start making pre-paints..then I'll be with you. I think the fact GW has not produced pre-paints (as of yet) says quite a bit.
Miguelsan wrote:GW´s releases a codex with a number of miniatures while ignoring all the other armies and after the first rush to get all the new shinny things they simply forget about any follow ups and start working in the next codex.
The problem with your theory is that this is the way GW have been doing business for more than 15 years now...
In fact, they've gotten better in recent years at supporting armies between codex releases. Releasing miniatures in several waves rather than all at once on the codex release (although it's admittedly debatable as to whether that's a good thing, at least for units that don't have current models already), and adding in expansions like Apocalypse and Planetstrike, which lets them release new toys for old armies.
Honestly Kanluwen I thought you understood the issue wasn't with GW protecting their IP, but the way its been handled in general. Calling a stop to reasonable discussion on the issue that is interesting to hear and adding to the whole issue discussion doesn't sound constructive.
Cheers for your perspective Brassscorpion. Its tragic to hear that people have been burned, but hopefully its the kind of thing that comes back to bite them in their IP correct tattoed A$$.
Quite funnily the issue of the tattooes came up at the start of the BB cease and desist fiasco with a prominent Bloodbowl figure: DoubleSkulls having the skull/skull dice tattoo'ed on his rectum. His response was quite eloquent...
I'm calling for less friggin' threads on the subject. There have been roughly 5-6 threads since Fumbbl went down, all claiming it's some great big conspiracy to screw you out of being able to play any of these games or the like. It's ridiculous.
Several people have also pointed out, EVERY TIME in EVERY THREAD that the timeframe on IP being protected until it becomes public domain is running out on a great many of GW's original bread and butter releases.
Several of these threads have also been in regards to idiotic ideals like "Well GW doesn't sell the product anymore, so it's perfectly okay for me to put it up on the internet as a PDF!"(look at the OP's link and there's one specific example that's a real hoot. It's a PDF scan of something GW really only published in White Dwarf. And he's surprised that they went after it?) or that just because you've edited some of the original stats, or taken the original stats and transposed them onto new statcards makes it okay to do exactly what you're told not to do(namely: don't publish statlines or full rules sets. Explaining a specific special rule ex: FRFSRF is okay...but not actually giving the rule away.)
For right now they kiss your ass. The best way to make money is to make people happy. GW (and they aren't the only ones who do it) make enough money off new people buying products that they don't HAVE to care and listen to customers.
I'd bet my entire school loan that were PP and Corvus Belli were as big as GW they'd do whatever fits their agenda or whatever draws new people.
They aren't as big as GW so they need to PRETEND to care more.
It's like when Walmart came into my city. They made promises and for the longest time were the lowest priced retailer and grocer in town. After 3 years they saw that they had the customers they needed so now treat their customers and employees like gak and are, in some instances, a more expensive place to shop than even Target and Kmart. Yet, Walmart is the most profitable business in town generating $80M per year in a town of 14,000 people in sales.
So they don't care that they might lose 20 customers a year, they still make plenty enough money because they did what GW did 20 years ago and did what PP and CB are doing now. Mark my words. Give it 20 years (or lets be conservative for the haters and give it 15 years) before we see the same kind of ACL-tearing knee jerks over something as obvious as this.
Even Captain Obvious would be baffled to think anyone out to make money really cares about its customers.
This might be a good point to remind everyone of Dakka's rule number 1 (be polite!) and to ask that if you're tempted to post something a little heated that you take a step back and have a good hard think about it first.
Respond to the topic, don't attack the posters.
And if you're not interested in participating in the discussion, just don't open the thread.
I agree with Fateweaver in the sense that a company can be trusted to do what all companies try to do. Make money. If someone does not like a product, their only recourse is to not buy the product. I think companies in general only care about people in terms of how it affects the bottom line. If their products do not sell only then will they alter their products.
If I let myself get emotional regarding something a company does in which I have little control over, I am the one that is at fault until I exercise the only control I have and that is to not buy that companies products or services any longer.
If you really don't like GW, don't buy anything from GW and don't play their games because it seems that you may be happier in the long run. It really is that simple.
However, for me, as much as I may be frustrated with some of the things GW does and puts out, I continue to play the game and buy the models. End of story.
Hellfury wrote:@ MajotTom11, thats a great first post. Welcome to Dakka. We could use more quality signal versus the noise ratio around here.
And we could also use a lot less of these styled threads.
Spending a little more time reading out the link in the OP:
Several of the things he complains about being forced to remove are things that GW actually did under license(Judge Dredd and Rogue Trooper off the top of my head, along with the War of the Rings related rules "erratas", etc that he wrote), things that GW own(Mordheim, Advanced Space Crusade, Doom of the Eldar, etc), or just the fact that the IP protection could be running out, like we've discussed in the dozen other threads on this same friggin' topic for almost a month now.
To Kanluwen and those above saying 'a company will do what companies do, try to make money', please read on. I think in some small way everyone is saying the same thing, but focusing on either the goals of a company or the goals of fans. Both are in fact the same, GW wants to make money, and we as fans, want them to make great product so we can give them that money, right? Same page! The question is whether or not their current strategies are working towards our mutual ends.
Do I like GW's new attitude as a fan? No not really... But, I am a business owner,and in a marketting/design field, I have some small experience in PR and general corporate strategy. What I am actually saying is supportive of GW as a company, because I in fact believe they are currently harming their own interests with short-sighted strategy. Allow me to elaborate -
All GW products are inherently and inextricably community based (with the exception of novels, and to a lesser extent, video games). They MUST involve 2 or more individuals. After all, playing a game of 40k against yourself would be pretty lame and counter productive to having fun right? It is beyond simply the fact that the games require 2 players, these are fairly complex products and require time to learn and master as well. I am pretty sure that all of us have had a mentor, or mentored others on the rules, how to improve our play, our painting, our strategy and even how to save a buck or 2. This is not a solo hobby. I am also willing to bet at least 50% of their customers were brought into the hobby by word of mouth, and not just by passing the product in some random hobby shop or a white dwarf amongst a hundred other magazines.
If we agree that far, we therefore agree that interaction is a fundamental part of the experience. I just paint, but even I have taken advantage of forums like this one, coolmini,and b&c to expose myself to people who will improve my skills. And even though I don't play, I quite like hearing about the actual games as well. I can't really imagine remaining interested, or even being particularly good at painting the minis without having learnt so many techniques online. Techniques I know I never would have imagined on my own. I remember I even managed to share a few emails with Bobby Wong himself back in the day, shortly after he unveiled his Leonatos set. That was amazing. There arent many other hobbies/communities where you can so easily access one of the masters and have them be humble, kind and articulate people perfectly willing to spend their time to help you out. That is something pretty cool about this hobby, especially considering it does have a fairly competitive nature in some aspects. In my admitedly limited experience, wargamers and hobbyists are kind, enthusiastic people...
Exactly the kind of people who are perfect clients. I mean look at us! Some are inarticulately bitching sure, others are making logical statements from various angles. But the point is, we are talking about it, and i'm sure people involved enough in the hobby to come here and talk about it are vocal to some degree with their friends as well. We are selling GW product right now, right this second!
Using Teardown as the perfect example again, they took an at the time very OOP game and breathed some life into it. They did this WITHOUT CHARGING. I want to be perfectly clear that I do not agree in any way shape or form with other companies/individuals financially profiting from superficially redressing what is clearly GW IP and product. (Let's face it, if GW should go after anyone it's Blizzard lol, talk about ripping of designs! but I digress)Teardown made a pretty simple and low end tribute to space hulk. Did they copy it? Sure they did. Did they ask permission before hand? Apparantly not. Did they give credit for the IP and direct fans to GW? They sure did.
Meanwhile, GW is cranking out some pretty high quality games with THQ. THQ has the liscence to GW IPs in videogames right now, I understand that, and it is perfectly acceptable that they closed Teardown's SH game from a legal and logical point of view. They had every right, and what they did was not wrong in that it was their choice to make. BUT - I question the choice!
The teardown SH app was absolutely no threat to the boardgame nor any of THQ's franchises. In fact, as I stated in my original post, that little Teardown game actually prompted me to spend a couple of hundred bucks restocking my paints and equipment, and picking up the real SH! I also own all the DOW series, and frankly, playing that SH game made me dust off DOWII for the first time in months too. It HELPED GW. TD actually provided them a service. And guess what, I passed that little app on to my co-workers and they enjoyed playing it as well. Then when I told them I bought the real game, they got kinda excited and wanted to see it. Then when I brought in a painted genestealer, they freaked out and wanted to try themselves (since we are all artistically inclined)!
So, Teardown's SH has brought in 6 potential new hobbyists and 1 old one single handedly. And I'm just one user of that game. I wonder what will happen if my co-workers/friends actually do paint a model or 2... maybe they will want to pick up a GW game? A video game? Maybe they will want to read a book? Chances are pretty good, and definetly up from the big zero awareness they had about GW in the first place right? All thanks to a little fan made app, which quickly translated into cash-money for GW. NOT the guys who actually made it.
The potential is clear. That app could have been easily ported to iPhone too for neglible costs. There are no guarantees, but the iPhone market is in the millions, and frankly it is a fairly lengthy game for its memory footprint. Perfect in scope, legnth and style for that platform. Little risk with high potential for gain. An oppurtunity missed because, in my opinion, someone who doesnt really understand the machine of this community and how the product propegates in the wild is making the decisions. Shutting Teardown ... um... down - was the correct corporate decision... The thing is though that GW has a more symbiotic relationship with its clientel than most corporations its size. The good-will of its clients is instrumental in the well being of the company, and in the end, the cash it's shareholders get in their pocket at the end of the year. In this case, it's really about finding a win win!
I write quickly so forgive the length and rambling, but a few more points. GW should embrace the changes the internet has forced on their business model. Can you find pretty much every codex on torrents? You sure can! Can you use GS molding to clone parts? You sure can! Is their much chance that they will be able to curb this? Not a shot in hell. If Hollywood can't stop piracy, GW won't be able to either.
Solution? IMHO, release the codexes for free. Their profit on them is neglible next to the profit of selling models, paint etc. The codexes (codices?) being free would facilitate more excitement per launch, would definetly decrease the whining and problems that occur when certain gamers face armies they do not know the rules for, and finally, increase the likelyhood of a player potentially starting a new army. Every gamer reading every codex is not a bad thing, it increases immersion, and creates passive participation in another army. Not everyone will go out and start a new army every time a codex comes out, but some will, and I bet my left nut that there would be a marked increase in sales with free Codices. Despite the GS cloning issue, it's just not that easy or quick, and people will still buy models, they will still visit the store, they will still read these sites. Sidenote, releasing them in digital form would also leave them open to easy updates and fixing, without the need for re-prints... people would also know where to look for info, and making them sign up and register to download not only ensures that the client base would be notified of these updates/fixes, but would also leave that venue open for marketing pretty much everything else. Emails of known clients are worth a lot of money!
Second, re-introduce short stories and more fluff into both White Dwarf and Codices. Younger kids who do not fully understand the rules or other people who simply enjoy the tone and nature of the world more than the appeal of a tabletop game itself can still have their imaginations captured by a good story. I know that's why I liked it so much as a tot in the 80's and 90's. GW can be an experience, and back in the day, was incredibly imaginitive and unique. Stories sell Fantasy and Sci-fi Product. It's a fact. And guess what, non-gamers can still buy a crap load of non-game specific product/books, and little kids too young to master it can still nag the hell out of their parents to buy them minis, books and video games, that's a fact too.
So, as you can see, there are what you will hopefully find to be valid arguements as to why the somewhat excessive legal action on fan sites (that are simply fan sites, not selling) and the moritorium on rumors is despite initial appearances, potentially very harmful to GW's business interests. What they need is more word of mouth, not less. Their products do not lend themselves to solo discovery very well, and certainly the nerdy stigma attached to anything most of the world assumes is D&D is difficult to overcome without the reassurance of other people liking it too. Attempting to make themselves the sole purveyors of GW news and fluff is, odd as it sounds, hurting them, not helping. And the thing is, I like GW and I want them to do well. Saying they are making mistakes does not mean otherwise, and like a good friend would do, sometimes it's best to speak an unwelcome truth than to stand by while your 'friend' is damaging their livelihood.
PS Thanks for the welcome Hellfury, see what I mean about nice people in the community?
Hellfury wrote:@ MajotTom11, thats a great first post. Welcome to Dakka. We could use more quality signal versus the noise ratio around here.
And we could also use a lot less of these styled threads.
Spending a little more time reading out the link in the OP:
Several of the things he complains about being forced to remove are things that GW actually did under license(Judge Dredd and Rogue Trooper off the top of my head, along with the War of the Rings related rules "erratas", etc that he wrote), things that GW own(Mordheim, Advanced Space Crusade, Doom of the Eldar, etc), or just the fact that the IP protection could be running out, like we've discussed in the dozen other threads on this same friggin' topic for almost a month now.
Thanks for taking the time to contribute that.
Did I force you to open this thread? Did I force you to respond?
Its a discussion forum for people who discuss things, whether you feel it is trivial or not.
If you don't like it, do not participate. Quite simple.
Hellfury wrote:@ MajotTom11, thats a great first post. Welcome to Dakka. We could use more quality signal versus the noise ratio around here.
And we could also use a lot less of these styled threads.
Spending a little more time reading out the link in the OP:
Several of the things he complains about being forced to remove are things that GW actually did under license(Judge Dredd and Rogue Trooper off the top of my head, along with the War of the Rings related rules "erratas", etc that he wrote), things that GW own(Mordheim, Advanced Space Crusade, Doom of the Eldar, etc), or just the fact that the IP protection could be running out, like we've discussed in the dozen other threads on this same friggin' topic for almost a month now.
Thanks for taking the time to contribute that.
Did I force you to open this thread? Did I force you to respond?
Its a discussion forum for people who discuss things, whether you feel it is trivial or not.
If you don't like it, do not participate. Quite simple.
Did I say it was a trivial matter? Did I say that we SHOULDN'T be discussing it?
Pretty sure I didn't.
Pretty sure that what I said is that we've had a buttload of threads recently on this very topic, and new ones continually opened.
I can understand how they sound alike though.
Sarigar wrote:Wow, I feel I've had my head buried in the sand for so long.
According to the GW site, you can't even get a tattoo depicting their IP? Really. Would they really stoop so low as to sue someone for having a tattoo? Or, you can't start a gaming club and call it the 'Warhammer Club'. Really? Did they just hire a bunch of overzealous young attorneys trying to flex their knowledge?
This really makes me a sad person.
I'm sold, next tattoo is the imperial eagle! I'll be sure to use it as my avatar everywhere.
I was going to pick up the limited Imperial Warzone before chirstmas-it saddens me to not pick it up, but I'll be passing.
Fateweaver wrote:I don't apologize if I insulted someone miserable enough to hate a company that is only doing what a company does.
Chances are, Fateweaver, that your post was deleted for statements such as this one.
"Doing what a company does" is an extremely naive and black/white view of how companies operate. I doubt anyone begrudges GW making money, or even 'protecting' their IP. But the strong arm antics are over the top.
They've always been of the mind that people can do their own stuff - most recently they released a series of rules that allowed people to create their own missions - yet when someone does that, it gets removed? I also don't think removing things that copies of what you sell is an issue either - if someone is posting up stats for something for free, that's a problem. Someone doing their own summaries for a game you give away for free? Different story.
Finally, your original post had another silly statement "[lots of different companies] don't love you", or words to that effect. Umm... I don't know whether you know this or not, but they need us more than we need them. Without their customers, they cease to be a company. Taking your customer base for granted is a very stupid thing to do. And it's very clear that companies like PP and FFGdo love their customers, or at the very least like them, because they seem to go out of their way to keep people interested, generate buzz, give things away, support their multiple products.
GW on the other hand keeps everything a secret, treats its customers like they were a necessary evil, and stifles community aspects of the hobby.
GW has hard decisions to make but imo this trend of topics is an overreaction but understandable.
Having surfed on all sorts of forums from the top dogs like Dakka to smaller communities; there's a lot for GW to keep an eye on. Communities like Dakka is fortunate enough to have a great moderator team working to make this place an ethical venue --- not so much for smaller sites since they either lack the ethic or manpower to make that a reality. I can understand why GW wants to keep a tighter lid on not only legal violations but rumors to boot since codices are released weeks before their release via internet leaks. In this case it can be argued that they haven't done enough to protect their properties.
I'm going to have to side with 40k Radio's attitude towards the majority of the violations specifically those that deal with blatant IP violations that GW has clearly laid out on their site. There's not much remorse for websites and such that not only are in blatant violation of GW's very reasonable conditions but they were given the opportunity to continue operations as long as they modified their ways. GW is treating these entities like they were professionals and from the legal letters released thats exactly what was delivered: a professional and reasonable experience.
Kilkrazy wrote:The reasons why there have been a lot of threads on this topic are because;
A. GW launched three waves of separate repressions at weekly intervals, which reignited the debate every time it might have started to die down.
B. People care.
Ohh KK don´t tell me that we are supposed to care about the issue. I thought that the only thing gamers were supposed to do was to buy everything GW puts on the market like nice little drones and leave thinking for the GWHQ guys
I am fascinated by the attitude of some defending GW who take the stance that this is 'a business, behaving like a business should' because I can assure those people, that I deal with complaints and conflict resolution between multinational corporations on a day to day basis and none that I encounter or sit at a table and work out agreements between, would take such a childish, bullying and narrow vision on how to deal with their own fan base. Public Image, even if your public is a niche market, is vital and GWs image within the hobby and across forums, frankly stinks.
Do you really think GW gives a fig about how much time and money you've spent as an individual on their product? If they don't, then they sure as hell deserve extinction. A trading company that doesn't care about it's customer base deserves no custom.
Moving from a 'hobby company' to a 'serious business' doesn't mean they suddenly get to not give a gak about people buying their products or providing support to them online, it means they should be taking extra steps to maintain good relations and ensure their customers are treated fairly and supported. What GWs been doing has alienated the community and seems to be entirely in defiance of common business sense.
Miguelsan wrote:Ohh KK don´t tell me that we are supposed to care about the issue. I thought that the only thing gamers were supposed to do was to buy everything GW puts on the market like nice little drones and leave thinking for the GWHQ guys
Some people here seem to think that:
A). Criticising a company or a company's actions is somehow 'wrong' and should not be done.
B). GW can do no wrong.
I wonder, and this is inspired by the Jeremy Clarkson avatar above your post Migs, what if this was a car forum, specifically a Mercedes/BMW forum. Would we have people telling us that we could never criticise Mercedes? Ever? And if their latest car was a little bit gak, we'd all just be over-the-top whiny complainers for pointing out the flaws in its manufacture?
Talking about avatars, mine is one that I made myself using a picture I found someplace with the logo of House Liao that used to be FASA´s IP. If the btech guys were using the same IP defense than GW I guess that I would receive my C&D letter soon.
Except the BTech guys openly support a free complete recreation of their rules that allow people to play without having to buy anything. They even have a sub-forum specifically for this free game on their boards. That speaks miles about their character and their desire to support the hobby and the community.
So I don't think you have to worry about them coming after you.
Miguelsan wrote:Ohh KK don´t tell me that we are supposed to care about the issue. I thought that the only thing gamers were supposed to do was to buy everything GW puts on the market like nice little drones and leave thinking for the GWHQ guys
Some people here seem to think that:
A). Criticising a company or a company's actions is somehow 'wrong' and should not be done.
B). GW can do no wrong.
I wonder, and this is inspired by the Jeremy Clarkson avatar above your post Migs, what if this was a car forum, specifically a Mercedes/BMW forum. Would we have people telling us that we could never criticise Mercedes? Ever? And if their latest car was a little bit gak, we'd all just be over-the-top whiny complainers for pointing out the flaws in its manufacture?
No, thats another problem inherent in these discussions since it gets devalued to the point where each side caricatures one another or simply does not acknowledge the other perspective. Its a problem faced in just about any forum community where there's a trend of passionate and vocal anti-Whatever the forum is. Case in point: World of Warcraft - Surf that forum and the amount of negativity makes one wonder how that game is the best MMORPG on the market much like GW is to tabletop wargaming. This problem is also further compounded by the fact that its the same people singing the same song and dancing the same dance; and gets worse when the language used becomes similar to how political parties treat eachother where hyperbole and emotion takes over instead of legitimate discussion.
Here, we have a topic beaten to death but GW has for the most part acted reasonably and professionally throughout most of these circumstances. Having army excel sheets, blatant IP violations when GW has reasonable and readily available standards, and the shady nature of some smaller communities, are all problems GW Legal has to face and they've done so reasonably well. Its understandable that there is a negative reaction to this especially if you already have a sour experience with GW, but from a business and customer perspective it doesn't seem like a big deal and instead something blown out of proportion especially since many of these cases they were allowed to operate if they complied. Definitely doesn't help that GW's has a negative history with many of us (Dark Eldar, price hikes, etc) but the inspiring things GW have done for this hobby is rarely mentioned or tossed aside, most recent of which being the Vegas contest which will hopefully boost the indy tournament scene since it adds more prestige and official bragging rights.
Cane wrote:I'm going to have to side with 40k Radio's attitude towards the majority of the violations specifically those that deal with blatant IP violations that GW has clearly laid out on their site. There's not much remorse for websites and such that not only are in blatant violation of GW's very reasonable conditions but they were given the opportunity to continue operations as long as they modified their ways.
To be fair, 40K Radio is utterly sycophantic to the Games Workshop company line. Everything GW releases is awesome by their standards, everything GW does is praiseworthy. Also, GW's conditions are not exactly "completely reasonable", given how far they go beyond what's actually mandated by law.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Do you really think GW gives a fig about how much time and money you've spent as an individual on their product? If they don't, then they sure as hell deserve extinction. A trading company that doesn't care about it's customer base deserves no custom.
GW doesn't exist to sell product to established gamers. They exist to sell a big pile of stuff to kids who'll probably abandon it in 6-9 months, but that's okay because there's a new one born every minute. By virtue of posting on this website, we're all beyond their supposed "core demographic" already. And hey, those snot-nosed little punks don't buy their models with they own money, and are far easier to please than us, too, so it's win-win.
Cane wrote:I'm going to have to side with 40k Radio's attitude towards the majority of the violations specifically those that deal with blatant IP violations that GW has clearly laid out on their site. There's not much remorse for websites and such that not only are in blatant violation of GW's very reasonable conditions but they were given the opportunity to continue operations as long as they modified their ways.
To be fair, 40K Radio is utterly sycophantic to the Games Workshop company line. Everything GW releases is awesome by their standards, everything GW does is praiseworthy. Also, GW's conditions are not exactly "completely reasonable", given how far they go beyond what's actually mandated by law.
Hmm I had always thought of 40k Radio to have awesome GW rants - they went off on GW Legal for the whole removing special characters from Blood Bowl even though they don't sell them in their most recent podcast for example. But they do side on GW Legal for the blatant "bloodbowl in the domain name" violations. Generally speaking 40k Radio has frequent and sometimes constructive criticism about the company throughout their shows although they notably are not anti-Chaos Codex and pro-GW legal when it comes to some of their actions.
ZacktheChaosChild wrote:This is an example of everyone on this forum:
"Man GW just blows. They flaunt their giant corporate dicks just cuz they are the only wargaming company that has a huge international fanbase."
'The next day, at the hobby store':
"Hi, I'm here to buy some GW products."/quote]
Perhaps the thing to do at this point is not to just stop buying GW products, but stop talking about them as well. No more playing their games at whatever gaming store you frequent, not even talking about them to anyone. Pick another game and praise it endlessly instead. Discourage any kids you know from getting into GW games. If their new core demographic is the snotnosed kids, do what you can to minimize exposure of GW products to them. That also means not selling old minis on Ebay. It's called shunning, and it just might work.
warpcrafter wrote:Perhaps the thing to do at this point is not to just stop buying GW products, but stop talking about them as well. No more playing their games at whatever gaming store you frequent, not even talking about them to anyone.
I've considered this earlier, and indeed do feel a bit guilty for promoting the game by my example
Its amazing how GW feels that actions such as this have no repercussions.
I have three kids that play GW stuff on occasion, two of which are girls. My son just reached the age where he would be inside GW's self-admitted target demographic. 13 and relies on daddy's money to purchase GW peoducts. He obviously has interest due to my own involvement in gaming.
Now that's not to say we will never ever buy anything GW related ever again, but I can guarantee that his allowance will not be spent on product's derived from GW IP, which includes certain FFG materials as well. Fury of dracula, as well as a few others was planned, but I am putting the kibosh on that.
If he wants to play anything GW related, then he will use what he or I or his sisters already possess.
GW is a company with a long history. They don't seem to realize that their target demographic has grown older and made target demographics of their own. When you alienate that previous target demographic, then they will less likely be inclined to dish out the cash that the new target demographic would spend there otherwise.
They not only lost my future purchases (I really need nothing else from them, space hulk being the one purchase I was planning on this year and WotR being the fluke which nearly reeled me back in) but the future purchases I would allow my adolescent children to buy as well.
Ethics has to enter play somewhere here. If GW doesn't wish to use ethics then their consumers most certainly can make up for their shortcoming in that department.
I have friends who are equally as pissed about this recent score as I am, they also have little target demographics of their own... GW in one fell swoop have doubled their losses.
All because GW insists on removing content that has little to do with protecting their IP when targeting actual offenders.
I can't stop playing GW games, as I get store credit for running the Warhammer Leag... Wait... I mean Distant Grim Dark Future Wargame night at the FLGS. Other than a Fortress of Redemption for the store, I think that I am personally done buying GW stuff for the year however, as really there's not much I need at the moment.
Uh...removing posted rules summaries IS protecting their IP from "actual offenders".
I'm sure if they could find an effective way to go after the kind of folk who set up the PDF torrents for new Codexes they would.
But see, here's where my problem with the whole subject immediately goes to:
Okay. I can understand them not wanting to put up rules, etc. Makes sense. I can also understand them wanting to get rid of the folks who leech off their website/imagery and the folks who make the Wars Star styled knockoffs.
What I don't get is why they don't start actually moving towards being more interactive with the customers, and actually really EXPLAINING why they're doing this or that...rather than having it resort to angry masses pouting about it on forums like Dakka/Warseer, etc.
Kanluwen wrote:
What I don't get is why they don't start actually moving towards being more interactive with the customers, and actually really EXPLAINING why they're doing this or that...rather than having it resort to angry masses pouting about it on forums like Dakka/Warseer, etc.
They did in the form of follow-up letters and I'm sure its available in the initial letter as well; at least thats what was presented in the bloodbowl thread.
Very much aware of that, I meant more using things like their Twitter feed or the "What's New Today" setups to make it public knowledge rather than just hoping that we get the actual follow-up letter from the individuals who got the C&Ds.
Kanluwen wrote:What I don't get is why they don't start actually moving towards being more interactive with the customers...
Because, as Fateweaver says, they don't care about us. We're a necessary evil. If they could conduct business without ever having to deal with the actual people who buy their products, they would.
See, I could believe that more if I wasn't actually getting a decent back & forth going right now about how Cadia stands following the 13th Black Crusade with the Black Library posters on Twitter.
Could be due to them being separate departments and the understandable decision of not wanting to fan the flames so to speak by drawing even more potentially negative attention when they themselves probably consider it an overall minor issue to the larger community.
GW Legal already gave the community its justification in a professional manner.
Just out of interest what ever happened to that old adage about customer service? Goes along the lines of if you give good service the customer will passs this on to "x" amount of people, but if bad then "x" multiplies big time. I'm assuming that just because little Timmy's mum / dad is spoken to politely, then this covers the good customer service angle in GW's eyes?
Kanluwen wrote:Uh...removing posted rules summaries IS protecting their IP from "actual offenders".
I realize this. Its a pretty simple thing for even my challenged intellect to understand.
I meant the collateral damage such as many fan made files that are connected to their games, but are original works of the crators not associated with GW that got the ax either through BGG just saying "screw it, we are tired of GW sending C&D letters to us so we are getting rid of any chance that they will whine at us again." or because that the C&D specifically targeted them in their request.
I think its more likely that content was removed by BGG for the reasons given above, but that's merely supposition.
Cane wrote:Could be due to them being separate departments and the understandable decision of not wanting to fan the flames so to speak by drawing even more potentially negative attention when they themselves probably consider it an overall minor issue to the larger community.
GW Legal already gave the community its justification in a professional manner.
That is what I choose to believe. I don't get the camp that hates GW product as well as legal. I really like what they do otherwise, fluff, minis, game additions. And I can't imagine that the guys in the studio who play and work around the hobby have any say in the matter.
Kanluwen wrote:Uh...removing posted rules summaries IS protecting their IP from "actual offenders".
I realize this. Its a pretty simple thing for even my challenged intellect to understand.
I meant the collateral damage such as many fan made files that are connected to their games, but are original works of the creators not associated with GW that got the ax either through BGG just saying "screw it, we are tired of GW sending C&D letters to us so we are getting rid of any chance that they will whine at us again." or because that the C&D specifically targeted them in their request.
I think its more likely that content was removed by BGG for the reasons given above, but that's merely supposition.
Okay, that argument makes more sense to me. I thought you were implying that the rules summaries, etc were an okay thing to have up.
But, from what I understand:
They don't have issues with you posting fanmade scenarios, etc. But you can't just copy/paste special rules from existing scenarios, or use statlines/event cards/cardboardtilecutouts and post them on the intarwebs claiming them to be your exclusive property.
However, it does make me kinda worried about the future of my current project of converting Space Hulk to work with a Kasrkin kill-team boarding a Plague Hulk and fighting swarms of zombies.
Yea, its lawyers you should hate here and not so much the parts of GW we become addicted to. I suppose it could be argued that GW execs still have the final say but to ignore professional legal advice doesn't seem like a common practice for most businesses especially in cases of clear and potentially dangerous legal violations.
Of course it's the lawyers. No one here is blaming Jervis (besides me) for this fiasco. Still, other departments should have begun to notice the bad feedback by now, right?
H.B.M.C. wrote:Of course it's the lawyers. No one here is blaming Jervis (besides me) for this fiasco. Still, other departments should have begun to notice the bad feedback by now, right?
We can't take you blaming Jervis seriously anymore HBMC. When you blamed him for stealing your pancakes was the final straw!
On topic:
I dunno. It might very well be that it's a case of each not knowing just what in the heck the other is doing.
GW undoubtedly surfs these forums and noticed; which is why I think GW Legal sent that follow up letter in the first place. I wouldn't be surprised if they were frustrated by some of our responses since they have a website page explaining their Do's and Don'ts.
To them they may also think this is also an overall minor issue to the larger community or something along the lines of a necessary evil.
Kanluwen wrote:However, it does make me kinda worried about the future of my current project of converting Space Hulk to work with a Kasrkin kill-team boarding a Plague Hulk and fighting swarms of zombies.
I share the sentiment. Lots of work going down the tubes when an order is given for its removal.
Not that the work is for nothing as you will still enjoy it. Although when that much effort is put into a project, people generally like to share the fruits of their labor for others to likewise enjoy.
I have literally months of design work I worry about distributing, just to have GW serve me a C&D.
I beleive this is the main cause of the ire that arises in many people. Sure there are idiots stating that they are mad that their photocopy of the rules are taken down, but even that has a bit of plausible logic when certain games haven't seen the light of day in decades. Not a great excuse mind you, but can be viewed as reasonable when looked at from a certain perspective.
Well see, the thing about outdated games I've got a theory on.
They can be claimed as the IP of the individual creators who were involved in making the items, or in the case of Judge Dredd/Rogue Trooper/The Eternal Champion setups--they no longer have the licenses for them anyways.
It's more effective/cheaper for them to just send C&Ds out than fight it out to keep the IPs and let you repost them.
Fateweaver wrote:For right now they kiss your ass. The best way to make money is to make people happy. GW (and they aren't the only ones who do it) make enough money off new people buying products that they don't HAVE to care and listen to customers.
I'd bet my entire school loan that were PP and Corvus Belli were as big as GW they'd do whatever fits their agenda or whatever draws new people.
They aren't as big as GW so they need to PRETEND to care more.
No...I don't think this is right at all. They may turn into GW if they get as big as GW, but that doesn't mean they are only pretending to care at the moment. Many of the small producers are hobbyists themselves and you are treated with consideration and genuine enthusiasm when you deal with them. They do care, not only about their customers but about the quality of their product and supporting the gaming community. It's the same with many staff in GW shops, aside from the pressure they are under to sell, most are genuine hobbyists and do what they do for the love of it. They have enthusiasm for the identity product, the look, the feel and the fluff. It seems to be the people running GW at the top are the problem; bean counters there solely to run a business without understanding the nature of what they are running, they dont seem to invest genuine enthusiasm for the Warhammer idea but see it as a 'supply and demand' company like any other, they might as well be selling clothes. This is what happens when you turn from a "by hobbyists for hobbyists" approach into a toy company approach, something which Wargaming doesn't seem to lend itself to. It could be a natural result of just getting too big, but Mr Tamyia has a large hobby company and they support magazines, museums and other hobbyist events.
The whole thing would turn into a badly run toy shop if it wasn't for the fact that the bean counters rely so heavily on their hobbyist redshirts and studio staff to prop up the "hobby" side of their image and that's what they don't seem to appreciate - the fact that it's still a games company with a strong hobby element. Most people get a shop wage for running things through a till, they don't get it for painting up armies to tabletop quality, building scenery and running campaigns and games in the store. Normal people wouldn't do that, it's too much cigarette, the people who are doing it like doing it because they love Warhammer not because they are being paid. If GW had to employ normal people into their shops there'd soon be a change, because currently the GW business model works by taking the enthusiasm of the staff and customers for granted. That will only continue to work if they nurture it instead of trying to smash it. At the moment GW doesn't seem to know if it's toy company or a wargame/hobby company. I think they're in a much better market as a hobby company than trying to turn into a corporate toy company because they can take advantage of the huge amount of free support through enthusiastic customers and staff. At the moment they are crushing this support base but continuing to run their business hoping to maintain the image of a hobby company. It's simply not going to work in my opinion.
Just to ask a question- and in response to a few people who suggested that the SH fan made video game was awesome for GW and resulted in people coming back to the hobby-
Thats great- I like that alot
However what does that do if it is allowed to continue, or even expand, to the relationship between GW and THQ- who it would appear have the sole rights to make 40k based video games- surely they'd have a bit of a fit and may land GW in hotwater? Like legal very expensive hot water?
*edit*
I think with this there is a whole huge pile more to it than this discussion covers- because there will be reasons for things to be done the way they have been- I don't know what they are, they may be good- they may be bad- that comes down to your perspective. From a big picture I'd say its a good thing to ask fan-made video games to stop if it halts massive problems with THQ :-p
warpcrafter wrote:Perhaps the thing to do at this point is not to just stop buying GW products, but stop talking about them as well. No more playing their games at whatever gaming store you frequent, not even talking about them to anyone. Pick another game and praise it endlessly instead. Discourage any kids you know from getting into GW games. If their new core demographic is the snotnosed kids, do what you can to minimize exposure of GW products to them. That also means not selling old minis on Ebay. It's called shunning, and it just might work.
This is a better strategy than some. I might add some of these points to give anyone who is considering such action to help them come up with their own plan. Whether you are in it for two months, till a certain action is taken, or forever, I hope this helps someone with their plan.
1. Be complete. Don't buy or touch a GW product in public. Don't even check out a BL book from the library. This should also include any other company using GW IP, including computer games or RPG books (no matter how pretty the FFG stuff is).
2. If you have a normal supplier, inform them you will not be buying more GW product, but are switching to xy and z.
3. Be visible. Make a commitment to go to to your FLGS or club every week and play another system. If it isn't one that is popular in your area make sure you have multiple armies and that they are painted.
4. Be positive. This maybe the tough one. Don't sit around and complain about GW. You will come off as that angry crank. Nobody likes that guy. If the only way you can talk up your game is by downgrading GW, then you don't have a strong sell. Don't insult GW players either, this will either drive them to stick with GW or drive them out of the hobby. Signing on to forums and trashing every single piece GW releases will only get you or the forum ignored. If it is bad, say so, otherwise leave it be. Your game is awesome, and that is all that matters.
5. Don't be too positive. If you come of as a shill (gaming has quite a few of those, which has only increased in the viral marketing age) you can make your task harder. Especially don't say as a protest everyone should play this specific game, that kind of goes against the spirit that most people are talking about. Be open to everyone and embrace the hobby, but just don't be the creepy guy either.
6. Be engaging. Yes, even with those bad gamer stereotypes (or their parents). Be free with advice, stories, and knowledge about different games. The less GW comes up in those conversations, the better you are doing.
7. Be patient, it may take a while before you feel like any progress has been made, if any. There are no small victories, only victories in situations like this. You are an individual, this movement (if it is such) is probably not in the majority. The world will not remake itself overnight. The If GW does feel that veterans are not worth the effort, you may make them feel they are justified in that. Certain crass actions would only help justify that in their minds. Also, the nice thing about patience is that it allows for evolution.
8. You are ultimately in this for you. Know what your goals are. Yes, you love the hobby, but it is your hobby. Keep your goals ahead of others expectations.
9. Keep in contact. Knowing others haven't forgotten will make it easier. Don't get sucked into the divides that are sure to pop up.
10. GW can still exist in your world. Trash talk (or even the occasional praise) them with people you know. Play 40k with your friends at home. The above is kind of your public personae; its almost like a job. Keep your goals in mind, and stick to your plan. If you do fall off the wagon, or meet your goal, remember you aren't giving up, just tasting a new flavor of ice cream.
Cane wrote:Could be due to them being separate departments and the understandable decision of not wanting to fan the flames so to speak by drawing even more potentially negative attention when they themselves probably consider it an overall minor issue to the larger community.
GW Legal already gave the community its justification in a professional manner.
That is what I choose to believe. I don't get the camp that hates GW product as well as legal. I really like what they do otherwise, fluff, minis, game additions. And I can't imagine that the guys in the studio who play and work around the hobby have any say in the matter.
It is one of the problems of brand building.
GW are a brand. The point of building a brand is to make customers like your brand so they will preferentially buy your products/services over rivals who may objectively be equally good or even better/cheaper.
Anything that pisses off your customers damages their perception of your brand. It will probably damage your sales, even though it doesn't affect the objective quality of what you are selling.
GW made a serious error with the second round of 'legal' action. The mistake was to unfairly pressurise companies who are filling a gap in the market which GW apparently don't care to fill, and to threaten their own customers with a crippled product.
It's like Ford threatening car buyers they will tune the engine of your next car for lower power if you don't buy Ford tyres.
Kilkrazy wrote:GW made a serious error with the second round of 'legal' action.
I have enough unassembled bits that I can never buy a GW item for the next year and still have plenty to do. The problem is that GW, like politicians, will always assign the wrong reasons for their policy failures, reinforce their mindset that they are on the right track, and proceeed blithely along the same course.
Agamemnon2 wrote:
GW doesn't exist to sell product to established gamers. They exist to sell a big pile of stuff to kids who'll probably abandon it in 6-9 months, but that's okay because there's a new one born every minute. By virtue of posting on this website, we're all beyond their supposed "core demographic" already. And hey, those snot-nosed little punks don't buy their models with they own money, and are far easier to please than us, too, so it's win-win.
The problem with this theory is what happens to all the stuff they buy while they're in the hobby? They sell it for cheap to somebody else or on e-bay. What this does is removes a person that may buy new figs from the equation. As a business they would be better suited to not only draw new gamers but to somehow keep them loyal thus reducing the "recycle" factor. They obviously don't make money from ebay or individual resale this means that at some point in the future, the amount of resale activity will exceed the new sale activity which will result in reduction of profit. They alleviate some of this by making new figs, new rules, etc; however, all that does is create small bursts of economic activity.
Overall I say it's a business model (if in fact this is their business model) that is doomed to failure.
There are real elements of David vs Goliath, fighting against "the man", "might makes right" and all the rest of it here, wrapped up in our own little corner of geekdom.
The best thing that might come out of it is perhaps for many of us to realise that GW (as with any corporate entity) are not our friends, not fellow-hobbyists (although they may employ many in their ranks of employees) but they are out and out hostile to us in that they ONLY want our money. Not a shocking revelation, and something I have been very well aware of myself for a few years now, but this kind of behaviour of theirs really brings it home.
So it brings it back to the issue of ethical consumption. Ultimately our only power in the democratic "West" is as customers ("consumers") and voters. Clearly lobbying parliament has its limitations and while possibly effective in macro situations (I've written to my MP over 3 seperate issues over the last year or so, how often have you written to yours? Each time I have receieed a well composed and personal response, clearly addressing my concerns and laying out his thoughts on the matter. I recommend the device if you haven't tried it before and you are of voting age.) This leaves customer action. I.e. the choice to buy or not to buy. Ultimately the rational consumer spends his money to achieve the maximum personal utility from that spend. So questions like "Does this company support my hobby or hinder it?" is a rational input as we consider what to buy. If nothing else, I hope it this whole furore has caused some of us to question where and why we spend money. Unthinkingly splurging £100's on the latest New Hotness from GW just because we get sucked in by the hype in WD is possibly now seen by more people as not the most rational use of their money. Maybe a better use would be to splurge on a new release from a company that isn't all about the senior executives getting mega-rich as quickly as possible, but about building a new idea and simply producing product at as good a quality level as possible.
For many years I have been an advocate of "fan" over "professional" when it comes to any hobby. Ultimately I strongly believe that on a level playing field, "fans" produce stuff of better quality because they care more deeply than someone who produces something simply because they are paid to do so. Now of course, a commercial company with financial backing can have some advantages when it comes to physical product (like, say, plastic terrain pieces), but when it comes to intellectual property or stuff requiring only small amounts of capital (like metal figure production), GW's absolutely pathetic record of producing inadequate and under-developed rules speaks for itself.
So, I do think now is (again) the time for those upset by this turn of events to really consider what messages you are giving every time you empty your wallet. Are you cutting your own throat by supporting a game system produced by a company that really couldn't give two hoots about quality and customer experience, are are you going to invest in the long term of our wargaming hobby and invest a little more effort in supporting the activities of companies and organisations that are more about producing true value for money for their customers?
Stopping spending on GW product (or at least cutting down on it) may seem somewhat of a lilliputian response to matters, but seriously, what else can we do? And ultimately it is about our own enjoyment of our own hobby. You can choose to support someone or something that helps build up your hobby, or you can support someone who is intent on tearing it down and using it for their own purposes.
I strongly believe that the rational response is to reclaim the hobby for ourselves and all that means is giving independent companies the break that they deserve! Even if we don't want to go "cold turkey", taking a small action like subscribing to The Ancible or Wargames Illustrated even in addition to White Dwarf, will all help in the long run!
Hellfury wrote:
While I understand that GW has the right to viciously enforce their IP,
Its this caveat often brought out and fine on face value that gets my goat. No disrespect to Hellfury. I am angry with GW not the thread or members here.
GW might have the right to defend IP and furthermore have the obligation lest they lose it, part of the3 minutiae of IP law. But they are amongst the biggest IP thieves in the business and I hate litigious hypocrasy.
They trademark and 'defend' their own names and concepts etc and blatantly steal from others IP because they are smaller than them. Just one example to get the ball rolling:
GW enforce 'their' IP over weapon names, even if the names are used in different circumstances, yet blatantly copy individual weapon names in identical circumstances.
GZG Full Trust has a super weapon spinal mount called the nova cannon. Which is long ranged only fired forward and incredibly destructive.
In GW's Battlefleet Gothic there are two such weapons, the Armageddon gun which is a unique weapon, and another weapon which is a forward mounted only spinal weapon called the nova cannon.
Full Thrust predates BFG by about ten years and the weapon was an invented name for both games, there is no real world analogy in any ship past or present and it is not a standard science fiction concept under that name. Nova cannon is the IP of GZG, a small but well known company with two employees. Now if the same had happened in reverse you could imagine GW reacting as if someone had set fire to their tits.
I can mention other examples from the Chaos star, now considered GW exclusive IP but belonging to Michael Morcock (who was pissed off at this but can do nothing) and worst of all attempts to trademarks names from the Bible - can you find any document more public domain that that. Abaddon, no thats not Games Workshops IP, thats Book of Revelations.
I hqave little respect for GW's IP policy which is a simple matter of bullying competition and stealing what they can for exclusive use. Call your elves High Elves and Dark elves, they will come after you, but they aren't big enough to threaten Bethesda and don't try. Furthermore old White Dwarfs themselves have adds for independent companies selling High Elves and Dark Elves under those names two or three years before the first edition of Warhammer. I know this because I have the back issues from the time.
We need someone to stand their ground for a test case. After Lucas took on 1st ed Battlestar Galactica and lost the doors were opened for space opera to proliferate. After White Wolf took on Underworld and lost they could not stop Twilight. While Twilight is crap, its nice to see the folklore thieves at White Wolf (all your vampire/werewolf belong to us) get told that such concepts are public domain and not for their exclusive use. Games Workshop is long overdue the same treatment.
Good post Orlanth. GW are morally bankrupt over this. Part of the issue I was trying to grasp in my post above was the discomfort I feel at being bullied in my hobby by greedy corporate types. I think I failed where you succeeded!
Automatically Appended Next Post: When it comes to test cases, I know Hasslefree got a recent C&D over his selling of a Troll Slayer-type dwarf model. He is intent on fighting back as he thinks it is ridiculous for GW to claim copyright over the concept of a bare-chested mohican-wearing fantasy dwarf miniature when his sculpt was an original sculpt and not a copy in any way of a GW model. It will be interesting to see how it goes. Again, so much of my disconcert is over the way GW arrogantly are assuming control over areas where legally, and certainly morally, they have none. Bullying and arrogance in the name of profit! Bastards.
Orlanth wrote:We need someone to stand their ground for a test case.
You willing to pay for it? That's going to be some pricy lawyering.
Orlanth wrote:After White Wolf took on Underworld and lost...
I didn't realize they actually took on Underworld. Given the costs, I thought they gave up at the start and made some emo posts about it on their web site. Not that I think they have a case, mind you.
Orlanth wrote:We need someone to stand their ground for a test case.
You willing to pay for it? That's going to be some pricy lawyering.
It may not need to go that far. GW are clearly trying out cases where their ground is very thin (see my post above) and their own lawyers may be shy of taking it to court. Arguing the toss in your own response letter may be all that is required. It is brinkmanship. All that is required is courage, not necessarily funds.
There is a grand tradition of "take-down" notices on the internet by bullying corporate shysters, and the likes of Youtube and eBay often find it easier to take stuff down rather than get the opinion of the person allegedly infringing copyright. It strikes me that GW are relying on the fear of those threatened, rather than on the fact that they have any substantive case (in many cases, not in all cases). For instance they have managed to get BGG to take down author's original works which GW never actually had copyright over.
Although I appreciate that it is easy for me to say as I have nothing at stake here, so I am not criticising those who have been caused sleepless nights by GW's strongarm tactics..
Item plus: IIRC Varwulf a GWtm is werewolf in German. I think that there should be a way to limit what you can trademark so at least is something original not plunder from the dictionary.
Lets face facts: The bulk of GW's customer base will never abandon them in mass.
Nerds love their nerd fodder.
Heck if I was gonna boycott GW over getting "bent over" in some way it should have been when they NUKED not one but two complete armies that I spent many hundreds of dollars on and a huge amount of time painting and converting (Genestealer cult and LATD).
It should have been when they stopped supporting all the specialist games I spent vast sums upon without so much as an apology or explanation.
Now I'm supposed to get all hot and bothered because they shut down and/or threatened a few websites for games I can't buy or play anyways because GW has effectively starved them to death support-wise?
GW is doing what GW has always done. This isn't news. GW does what GW wants. And we will keep buying...
I'm a GW nerd and I love my GW crack. That being said what I have done is paired back my investment in GW:
I used to be the guy that bought every new and codex army. I rarely had less then 4-5 armies in the works or being actively collected.
No more.
I have one army, and I made sure it was a CORE army: orks. Orks are not gonna disappear from 40K. I refuse to get burned again by GW's love of nuking non-core armies and sideline games.
All that money I used to spend on the three or four other GW armies or specialty products/games I now spend on other games from other companies.
CT GAMER wrote:
GW is doing what GW has always done. This isn't news. GW does what GW wants. And we will keep buying...
You do not speak for all of us here friend, some of us, who have a sizeable amount of cash to spend, will not be. Some of us value our respect as consumers over our 'need' of the product.
There are other manufacturers than this... I may well be playing 40k till my old(er) age, but the miniatures I choose to build armies with are mine to purchase from whomever I please.
CT GAMER wrote:
GW is doing what GW has always done. This isn't news. GW does what GW wants. And we will keep buying...
You do not speak for all of us here friend, some of us, who have a sizeable amount of cash to spend, will not be. Some of us value our respect as consumers over our 'need' of the product.
Good for you. However the vast majority of GW consumers will perhaps grumble for a bit when these sort of things happen then quickly forget about it all when the next shiny new thing hits the shelf...
You are a drop in the bucket. I predict you will see NO effective mass scale boycott come to be on the part of GW consumers.
For every guy like you there are 50-100 little "Timmies" using Mom and dad's credit card to buy massive amounts of GW product on a regular basis.
For every cranky old timer like you or I that might quit there are ranks of kiddies lining up to take our place.
1. Played 40k & fantasy on and off for 10 years or so. The only reason I get back into it is when a friend is interested and I agree to do an army at the same time as them.
2. Have not bought a GW mini for almost a year now and have no plans on getting any soon. Have bought Skaven book out of curiousity/nostalgia.
My opinion/understanding on what determines how companies act
3. Money. So if it is profitable, do it more; if it isn't, do it less.
4. This includes losing money on one hand to gain money in a different way.
My opinion on GWs implimentation of above.
5. If we keep everything secret, they have to buy it to know if they like it.
a. So this works well for people that are perfectly happy just grabbing a starter box, a paint set, a codex, some glue and slapping all together and giving it a go. For GW, this works great for the young and energetic crowd. (me 10 years ago)
b. For the more cautious/money worried people this can be a turn off, but then again, they wouldn't be spending that much anyway. (apply point 4, lose X b/c people are turned off by secretism, gain 2X from people buying stuff just to see if they like it)
c. This really pisses me off after getting out of my GW shell and learning about other games/companies. (PP, FOW, Infinity). I have done the horrible of downloading books in the past just to see if I wanted to get into an army. (To any crazy lawyers, that isn't a confession as I didn't say what books). Then I went to PP and found mkII free online, read it, liked it, bought 2 armies and still working on them. Same thing with Infinity.
d. In practicality, PP and Infinity are taking advantage of people like me and applying point 4 (above) in that they may lose 50% of rule book sales, but a lot of people will want the professionally produced copy still, and they may get three times as many starters into the game, which will return lots o' cash.
Point of View on Ethical Buying/Changing a companies business practise.
6. So going with point 3, how you spend your money is a direct endorsement of that companies business practises. It's just like any other spending. If you are willing to pay $5 more for a product because you know the company behind it is local, pays its employees a fair wage (not 3rd world wages), follows strict environmental guidelines (from your country) than you will show a company that it is worth doing those things. If a company instead finds that they can sell more, by cutting a cost along with all those things I mentioned (ie by moving production to China) than you are encouraging them to do it b/c you care more about money than anything else.
7. Applying ethical buying to gaming (not just GW). If you consider supporting the community important, put your money where your mouth is. If you think the legal practises of a company are bullying or excessive, put your money where your mouth is. If you think GW is the company that produces the best game, in the best way, following the best practises, than buy GW. Personnally, I will try to but at a FLGS over the internet as the internet doesn't give me a place to play, and doesn't host clubs, or doesn't have a guy behind the counter who will honestly tell me "This isn't that good a game" b/c that's the kind of guy he is.
8. All the above applied to GW: I don't like the way GW is behaving, so I won't buy there. I don't care about right or wrong in this regard 'cause, they don't either (see point 3). I will reward other companies b/c I like what they are doing, and in my childish naivete I will hope that the 0.001% loss of income that I generate for GW might just make them step back and look at the other companies who gained 0.001% income and try to copy them! Mind you, if enough people do it, it just might work.
PS. There was a case (paizo.com) I believe that got hit with a C&D for using GW copyrighted photos (the boxes) when selling GW stuff online. I don't care if you'd rather have people by directly from you, that's just bugs me. Think of the real life parallel. Oh Mr. FLGS, you have to black out all the boxes for you GW products! (man, that's what Canada does for cigarettes to keep people from buying them...)
Orlanth wrote:After White Wolf took on Underworld and lost...
I didn't realize they actually took on Underworld. Given the costs, I thought they gave up at the start and made some emo posts about it on their web site. Not that I think they have a case, mind you.
Odd, I was pretty sure Sony settled out of court with White Wolf, mainly as although most of the IP was not something they could be done for although there where many serious similarities, White Wolf had them over the barrel with the 'Abomination' thus they paid an undisclossed fee and never again was it mentioned.
I might be wrong though, but I'm sure at the time Conrad posted something on the official forums about it.
edit - A quick look on wiki links to this site, I'm sure there is more info out there, but aye there was a confidential settlement between them. Doesn't sound like White Wolf losing tbh, why would there be any kind of settlement if they where going to lose.
CT GAMER wrote: For every cranky old timer like you or I that might quit there are ranks of kiddies lining up to take our place.
Except there aren't. As GW's published accounts show, year on year, in real terms, sales of 40k and WFB have fallen in volume every year since 2001. Kiddies may (or may not - there is no reliable data either within GW or without it) outnumber "vets" when it comes to sales. But the level of player attrition is still positive. Its all one more nail in the coffin.
CT GAMER wrote: For every cranky old timer like you or I that might quit there are ranks of kiddies lining up to take our place.
Except there aren't. As GW's published accounts show, year on year, in real terms, sales of 40k and WFB have fallen in volume every year since 2001. Kiddies may (or may not - there is no reliable data either within GW or without it) outnumber "vets" when it comes to sales. But the level of player attrition is still positive. Its all one more nail in the coffin.
Video games will surely spell the end of traditional wargaming in time. The old timers are gonna dye off eventually, and the young ones like the technology and instant gratification of videogaming.
That being said GW is not gonna base it's business decisions on what some cranky guys on a web forum think. Actual major sales loses that can be traced to an organized player boycott might, but that boycott is never gonna happen.
Look at this very thread: People saying things like "sure I won't buy anything else this year because I already have made all my purchases for x army I need currently" or "I'm gonna buy the fortress of redemption because it is really cool, but then I'll boycott", etc., etc. Wow, that is really sticking it to the man...
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:...why would there be any kind of settlement if they where going to lose.
Cheaper to settle.
Osbad wrote: year on year, in real terms, sales of 40k and WFB have fallen in volume every year since 2001.
CT GAMER wrote:Video games will surely spell the end of traditional wargaming in time. The old timers are gonna dye off eventually, and the young ones like the technology and instant gratification of videogaming.
I don't buy that at all. People will always write with a pen and paper no matter what technological terrors are created.
CT GAMER wrote:That being said GW is not gonna base it's business decisions on what some cranky guys on a web forum think. Actual major sales loses that can be traced to an organized player boycott might, but that boycott is never gonna happen.
GamesWorkshop Annual report 2009 wrote:There are no silver bullets for growing sales at Games Workshop. It requires a consistent focus on the basics of
recruiting new hobbyists through our Hobby centres and using our games to teach them how to buy, build, paint and
collect ever larger armies of miniatures. We retain these hobbyists as customers by releasing fantastic new products an
running exciting activities to keep everyone engaged in the Hobby. By growing our active customer base in this way, our
sales to independent retailers (trade) and direct businesses benefit as well. It is simple to say, but hard to do, which is
why it all comes down to the strength of our management teams in each sales business and in particular the quality of
our managers in each Hobby centre.
CT GAMER wrote:Look at this very thread: People saying things like "sure I won't buy anything else this year because I already have made all my purchases for x army I need currently" or "I'm gonna buy the fortress of redemption because it is really cool, but then I'll boycott", etc., etc. Wow, that is really sticking it to the man...
Hey don't be such a downer, half the effort of boycotting is saying you're going to boycott. There's no boycott gestapo going around checking if the people who claim they're boycotting are actually boycotting, that would defeat the purpose of the boycott.
I must admit, the arguments for boycotting are slowly turning me around.
It's not like I even have as much money to spend as I used to.
What so shocking about all of this is that they could have protected their IP easily without causing such a massive negative backlash. It's so dumb and clumsy. We're not (all) unreasonable people. We realise GW must protect it's IP. But the way in which it is being done is unfriendly and not that professional either, in my opinion. Let me put it this way. I'm teaching at the moment in a tough school. There's two ways to get control in the classroom in this situation. You can go in strongarm, yelling and screaming, and terrify the kids into compliance, or you can be firm, polite and approachable, plan everything to a tee, take the kids interests and strengths and weaknesses into account and teach them. The latter works better, is more rewarding and is more likely to give you the end result you want (ie. the kids learning). It's a little bit more work but is definitely worth it. I feel like this is directly comparable to GW- they could engage with the community, have patience, and still protect their IP. They'd probably shift way more product that way too, because the product is good quality (miniatures and background anyway, and the rules aren't bad so much as poorly supported). Instead, they bull in in the lazy and confrontational way that's going to piss people off and lose them custom. Completely avoidable. Dumbasses.
I agree. It does however involve a rejigging of my plans for the future, and probably a change of gaming groups. It's not the biggest inconvenience in the world, but also, I'm not nearly as outraged as I am about, say, child slavery, so it is compartively a large action to take for me.
meh.. its 6 and two 3s to me, i mean, sure i can hate the big corporate lawyers, but i love their stuff so much i dont think i WANT to boycott them.
Also, at the end of the day, alot of these sites make money for advertising, i mean, if i wrote X and then someone reprinted my X on a website that made alot of money because after it got to 100,000 hits, so company Y gave them 50,000 dollars to put a banner up.
Surely i deserve most of that 50,000 bucks right?
Makes sense to me.
I dont know about Dakka, but surely alot of guys have made alot of money, by just making a website with all of another guys stuff on it? That seems a tad unfair to me.
I can't seem to access the OP's link. I get to Board Game Geek, but there's no text or anything.
As for a boycott, I don't buy much new from GW, and I'm getting into FOW, but I'm simply going to base my buying habits on one simple question: how can I get the most utility and fun out of my hobby dollar? If that's buying GW, I buy GW. If not, I buy something else. Knowing that GW might quash some of my fun at a later date is good info, and I certainly sympathize with those directly affected, but it's not going to stop me from having fun.
CT GAMER wrote:Look at this very thread: People saying things like "sure I won't buy anything else this year because I already have made all my purchases for x army I need currently" or "I'm gonna buy the fortress of redemption because it is really cool, but then I'll boycott", etc., etc. Wow, that is really sticking it to the man...
Hey don't be such a downer, half the effort of boycotting is saying you're going to boycott. There's no boycott gestapo going around checking if the people who claim they're boycotting are actually boycotting, that would defeat the purpose of the boycott.
No. a boycott is an actual act of not buying as a means to show a company your displeasure or as a way to uphold one's own principles.
People saying they are gonna stick it to the man by not buying his product but only after they buy all the things they currently want is not a boycott and is actually rather comical/sad at the same time...
mattyrm wrote: sure i can hate the big corporate lawyers, but i love their stuff so much i dont think i WANT to boycott them.
My group are pretty much all die hard GW players who play at a very competative level. I'd have trouble converting them to other systems I imagine. Still, changing groups wouldn't be that big a deal, there's lots of friendly folks at the FLGS.
this is why i'm switching to thoer companies. i already have my armies to 2250. sure, if things change in a codex i may rejig my lists and buy another small thing to make them back to 2250, but thats it.
CT GAMER wrote:Look at this very thread: People saying things like "sure I won't buy anything else this year because I already have made all my purchases for x army I need currently" or "I'm gonna buy the fortress of redemption because it is really cool, but then I'll boycott", etc., etc. Wow, that is really sticking it to the man...
Hey don't be such a downer, half the effort of boycotting is saying you're going to boycott. There's no boycott gestapo going around checking if the people who claim they're boycotting are actually boycotting, that would defeat the purpose of the boycott.
No. a boycott is an actual act of not buying as a means to show a company your displeasure or as a way to uphold one's own principles.
People saying they are gonna stick it to the man by not buying his product but only after they buy all the things they currently want is not a boycott and is actually rather comical/sad at the same time...
You are so wrong it's not even funny, the act of "boycotting" has nothing to do with actually boycotting. Real boycotting is when you get a bunch of people to make a bunch of promises and noise about "boycotting". The goal is to make it look like a threat, whether or not it actually is one is immaterial. Once you have enough people shouting for a boycott, it influences others to buy less of the company's products, because it gives the impression the company is doing something wrong. It's easier and more effective to convince an ignorant majority to buy less then an angry minority to stop buying altogether. If you want to boycott GW properly you can still buy GW products, just do it online where people won't see it.
I do agree that people saying they will stop after buying what they want is bad form and hurts the boycott. They should just lie and say straight up they won't buy GW products and buy what they want under the table.
CT GAMER wrote:Look at this very thread: People saying things like "sure I won't buy anything else this year because I already have made all my purchases for x army I need currently" or "I'm gonna buy the fortress of redemption because it is really cool, but then I'll boycott", etc., etc. Wow, that is really sticking it to the man...
Hey don't be such a downer, half the effort of boycotting is saying you're going to boycott. There's no boycott gestapo going around checking if the people who claim they're boycotting are actually boycotting, that would defeat the purpose of the boycott.
No. a boycott is an actual act of not buying as a means to show a company your displeasure or as a way to uphold one's own principles.
People saying they are gonna stick it to the man by not buying his product but only after they buy all the things they currently want is not a boycott and is actually rather comical/sad at the same time...
You are so wrong it's not even funny, the act of "boycotting" has nothing to do with actually boycotting. Real boycotting is when you get a bunch of people to make a bunch of promises and noise about "boycotting". The goal is to make it look like a threat, whether or not it actually is one is immaterial. Once you have enough people shouting for a boycott, it influences others to buy less of the company's products, because it gives the impression the company is doing something wrong. It's easier and more effective to convince an ignorant majority to buy less then an angry minority to stop buying altogether. If you want to boycott GW properly you can still buy GW products, just do it online where people won't see it.
I do agree that people saying they will stop after buying what they want is bad form and hurts the boycott. They should just lie and say straight up they won't buy GW products and buy what they want under the table.
To abstain from or act together in abstaining from using, buying, or dealing with as an expression of protest or disfavor or as a means of coercion. See Synonyms at blackball.
Anything else is aimless internet "nerd rage" and posturing...
avantgarde wrote:
People saying they are gonna stick it to the man by not buying his product but only after they buy all the things they currently want is not a boycott and is actually rather comical/sad at the same time... You are so wrong it's not even funny, the act of "boycotting" has nothing to do with actually boycotting. Real boycotting is when you get a bunch of people to make a bunch of promises and noise about "boycotting". The goal is to make it look like a threat, whether or not it actually is one is immaterial. Once you have enough people shouting for a boycott, it influences others to buy less of the company's products, because it gives the impression the company is doing something wrong. It's easier and more effective to convince an ignorant majority to buy less then an angry minority to stop buying altogether. If you want to boycott GW properly you can still buy GW products, just do it online where people won't see it.
I do agree that people saying they will stop after buying what they want is bad form and hurts the boycott. They should just lie and say straight up they won't buy GW products and buy what they want under the table.
That is only as true as how sensitive the company is to public perception. GW has proven that they are not that sensitive, so bottomline numbers have more impact.
^^^I'm not talking about how the company thinks people perceive it. I'm advocating influencing your own social circle by telling others that you are boycotting, the act of "boycotting" doesn't matter, but by saying you are, it alters peoples' perception of that company and they buy less from it.
To abstain from or act together in abstaining from using, buying, or dealing with as an expression of protest or disfavor or as a means of coercion. See Synonyms at blackball.
Argumentum ad verecundiam. The definition of a word isn't an argument. YMDC is proof of that.
I'm not arguing about what you think a boycott is, I'm saying what a boycott does. There's a difference.
avantgarde wrote:^^^I'm not talking about how the company thinks people perceive it. I'm advocating influencing your own social circle by telling others that you are boycotting, the act of "boycotting" doesn't matter, but by saying you are, it alters peoples' perception of that company and they buy less from it.
To abstain from or act together in abstaining from using, buying, or dealing with as an expression of protest or disfavor or as a means of coercion. See Synonyms at blackball.
Argumentum ad verecundiam. The definition of a word isn't an argument. YMDC is proof of that.
I'm not arguing about what you think a boycott is, I'm saying what a boycott does. There's a difference.
Naaaaah.
People are skeptics. I don't believe half the people on this board will follow through if something shiny catches their eye in the next three months. You're arguing that the perception of a boycott has an effect. It doesn't. GW are skeptics too. They know the intertubes were built for people to blow off steam. HBMCs purchase of a Fortress just gave them a fresh infusion of cash to weather his withholding of FW luvvin'. The post-purchase evil glares nonwithstanding, GW isn't going to react to internet claims of a boycott.
Now, if you can influence your friends to put their money elsewhere, that's awesome. But is it to their benefit? That's what makes the final decision.
You don't have to argue in this thread, simply demonstrate your protest by finding something else you want and buying that instead.
If you really want a GW item, find something second hand on ebay and buy that instead, that way you're just reimbursing someone for a purchase and your money doesn't go to GW.
Certainly seems like a great deal of overt and wasted douchebaggery on their part over IP that they no longer care about.
But then again, I had an incomplete Anvil of Doom boxed set which I admitted I had purchased from chaosorc (and not their holy and blessed online store), and they sent me a new one with basically no questions asked. And that bad boy's all metal.
Jive Professor wrote:Certainly seems like a great deal of overt and wasted douchebaggery on their part over IP that they no longer care about.
But then again, I had an incomplete Anvil of Doom boxed set which I admitted I had purchased from chaosorc (and not their holy and blessed online store), and they sent me a new one with basically no questions asked. And that bad boy's all metal.
As always, of two minds on this.
Due to the massive markup on price, they can do that, because the thing is actually so flaming cheap to make it's more cost effective to issue a new one no questions asked, than pay for some employee to process a return.
It's a bit of metal forced through a mold, once the initial price of design and casting was sorted, they are just raking in money.
Units sold per do not match the same scale, in fact declined to 2007 last I checked.
Where did you you find that information? I tried looking for anything like you said. Any help would be appreciated. I've noticed a lot of people cite information here on Dakka without actually citing anything.
I wish I could help you guys, but since the last thing I bought from GW was the Broodlord when the last Tyranid codex was released I'm afraid GW won't notice any drop in my GW based spending.
Well, I was planning on getting myself a forgeworld inquisitor or Krieg commander for Xmas, but then I saw Gamezone's mournful knights and zombie hounds and well...
I just put in a big order with Warstore, and I switched from buying lots of GW to buying Warlord Romans (to get my historicals gaming going), FOW, and some Avatars of War (for painting).
2010 is going to be my year without GW. I have enough stuff in the closet to paint for years (most of it ebayed and bartertowned). I'll spend this year buying from other companies and expanding the horizons
Fafnir wrote:Well, I was planning on getting myself a forgeworld inquisitor or Krieg commander for Xmas, but then I saw Gamezone's mournful knights and zombie hounds and well...
...I'm already doing my part.
Yeah, if anyone is thinking of spending on fantasy, take a look at
If your considering a large monster as a present to yourself this Christmas, then hows about:
http://www.ultraforgeminiatures.com/ (unfortunately the greater demon of disease is no longer available...yep, due to GW and their threatening letters...)
I've often wondered why it is that GW feels it's IP should be so viciously "defended",yet apparently have no qaulms about freely (obviously) "borrowing" others IP ( H.R.Geiger,Orion pictures,Tyranids and Necrons) to incorparate in to 40K.
agnosto wrote:
I would love to see some of these organizations stand up to GW, if for no other reason than it would cost them between $1-10million and years to prosecute. If what some people are saying is true (and I highly doubt that GW owns outright rights to Judge Dredd for one), then they would be able to fight it and even win; winning would possibly mean that GW would have to pay the winner's legal costs on top of their own. 10 of such lost lawsuits would mean they could kiss their bottom line gone. They don't have the capital to fight endless lawsuits (IRAA they are not).
If it would cost GW $1-10 million in legal fees I imagine that the company on the other side of the courtroom would have similar fees, and given GWs size and market share the smaller company would be harder pressed for cash than they would be.
agnosto wrote:
We all know that bullying works in the short term but it will eventually come back around and cost more in the long run. Seriously, after all the publicity, legal battles, and many victories; the music industry is not any richer for it and the downloading of music is even more prevalent than it was before it all started.
Some guy with middling greenstuff skills and a garage set-up could alter some GW figs just enough to cause reasonable doubt that it ever was a GW fig and he could sell thousands of homebrew figs with a different label. I fail to see how that's any different than their ex-employees going to other companies and sculpting the same type of figs. We all know people are going to buy these cheaper, better looking figs and add them to their 40k or fantasy army but GW can't prove any misfeasance so they just chew their cud and take it like the cows they are.
Anywho, we can all sit here and postulate but nothing's going to change until something tips everything over an edge (or not).
You can't really compare this to the music industry. It's much, much harder to download a plastic figure than a datafile besides, a "guy in a garage" would probably not be able to reproduce the figures for less than what GW sells their figures for, unless it was some sort of chineese endavor with kids working for pennies - and then who are the really bad guys?
I still don't understand what the big fuss is all about. Sure, the prices go up. But would someone be so kind as to mention one product that haven't (hasn't?) increased in price over the last 15 years? And sure they make people on BGG take down their scans of all characters from BB and other clear IP infringements, but most off that stuff was either a) a clear infringement on their copyright or 3) something you could easily recreate if you wanted to. And wait a couple of months and I'm sure most of the stuff will have resurfaced anyway...
So basically: stay calm. If you can't - stop supporting GW (without being all dramatic about it) and see if the calmness returns. If not, seek out a doctor, it might be caused by a medical condition, not GW.
I think it would be HILARIOUS if all the people GW are making a fishing expedition with actually did say" Ok buster! Lets see what you've got!" because I would bet my last nickel that if everyone went through litigation with GW, GW would bankrupt themselves in legal bills.
Seriously, they may be fairly heavy weight s in the industry, but they could not support the combined legal fees required to take on everyone at once.
I don't understand why you'd need millions to defend a case such as Librarian Online. The eagles look nothing alike and it's dead easy to produce a large volume of historical material that shows where they come from. GW can knock themselves out with legal expenses, no amount of money will overcome that level of common sense.
They have become a vile company of late. I can't see how the apologists can come out saying they it's ok for them to protect their IP. This is just taking the piss. Librarian's eagle is nothing like their own. They seem to think they have rights over the whole hobby and can lean on everyone doing something vaguely similar to themselves.
BrassScorpion wrote:Slapping fans has become a fine art this year. As you may know, GW US was very short-handed this year after slashing many staff positions at HQ and in retails shops, so they asked many of their most devoted customers who frequent the HQ store to build and paint models in support of Games Day 2009 earlier this year with the promise of getting to keep the models we built and painted after the Games Day season was over. I even provided free publicity for the Games Day "Big Game" with those models on BoLS where thousands of people would see it ahead of the event. If I told you how those of us who asked about those models after Games Day season was over were treated you wouldn't even believe me and no, we still don't have the models that were promised to us or anything in the way of an apology or other compensation. :( A couple of us have spoken to one decent fellow we know at HQ who's trying to resolve the problem for us, but it should never have come to this situation in the first place, that's no way to treat some of your best customers, especially those that helped you out in a pinch. If they expect anyone to help them in the future with a project like that they need to not mistreat and disrespect the people who already helped them earlier this year.
Well Brass, if you really wanted to get them you all need to get together and get a lawyer. You then need to present GW with a labor lawsuit. All of you basically worked for GW and received no compensation, which is illegal.
Hellfury wrote:I think it would be HILARIOUS if all the people GW are making a fishing expedition with actually did say" Ok buster! Lets see what you've got!" because I would bet my last nickel that if everyone went through litigation with GW, GW would bankrupt themselves in legal bills.
Seriously, they may be fairly heavy weight s in the industry, but they could not support the combined legal fees required to take on everyone at once.
I would love to see this backfire on them.
Ha, like a fan class action suit for harassment? Damn, I should have gone pre-law.
Howard A Treesong wrote:I don't understand why you'd need millions to defend a case such as Librarian Online. The eagles look nothing alike and it's dead easy to produce a large volume of historical material that shows where they come from. GW can knock themselves out with legal expenses, no amount of money will overcome that level of common sense.
They have become a vile company of late. I can't see how the apologists can come out saying they it's ok for them to protect their IP. This is just taking the piss. Librarian's eagle is nothing like their own. They seem to think they have rights over the whole hobby and can lean on everyone doing something vaguely similar to themselves.
Except that's exactly not what they're doing.
They're going after people who are using THEIR intellectual property without their consent.
Howard A Treesong wrote:I don't understand why you'd need millions to defend a case such as Librarian Online. The eagles look nothing alike and it's dead easy to produce a large volume of historical material that shows where they come from. GW can knock themselves out with legal expenses, no amount of money will overcome that level of common sense.
They have become a vile company of late. I can't see how the apologists can come out saying they it's ok for them to protect their IP. This is just taking the piss. Librarian's eagle is nothing like their own. They seem to think they have rights over the whole hobby and can lean on everyone doing something vaguely similar to themselves.
Except that's exactly not what they're doing.
They're going after people who are using THEIR intellectual property without their consent.
How is that difficult to understand?
Once again,I have to ask why it is that GW viciously defends it's own IP,while feeling apparently justified in using others with in their model range?
Did GW and Geiger come to an agreement in the use of his IP for the use of Tyranid sculpts that are obviously inspired by his work?>
Did GW get permision from Orion pictures to use the likeness of Terminators,on wich Necrons appear to be based?
Kilkrazy wrote:It's not like going on hunger strike or setting yourself on fire as a protest.
What am I going to do with all this lighter fluid then? Can I set other people on fire? Does that count?
Yes. Set them on fire. Set them all on fire, HBMC...
Don't mind me, just the voice in your head telling you to burn things.
I've often wondered why it is that GW feels it's IP should be so viciously "defended",yet apparently have no qaulms about freely (obviously) "borrowing" others IP ( H.R.Geiger,Orion pictures,Tyranids and Necrons) to incorparate in to 40K.
Yeah, same here. They will go after people like rabid dogs for so-called infringements, but they'll steal from everyone.
All I can gather is that they've deluded themselves into thinking that they actually came up with all this stuff themselves, and just kindly ignored the fact that the source material they stole from doesn't exist. "Dune, what's that? The only God Emperor is the Emperor of Man!", "No, I can't say I have ever heard of a film titled 'Alien'...now buy some Tyranids.", etc.
Anyway, as for Gamezone, I really like their models, looks like high quality stuff. The only downside is that they don't make a manticore model...I hate the GW one (mostly the rider but the beast himself has more than a few problems), that's one model I would kill to get an alternative for.
Gorlack wrote:If it would cost GW $1-10 million in legal fees I imagine that the company on the other side of the courtroom would have similar fees, and given GWs size and market share the smaller company would be harder pressed for cash than they would be.
I don't know about legal processes in your slice of the world but here in the states it's standard practice to countersue for legal fees; after all why should be out of pocket because some wackjob decided to take you to court? The hardest thing would be convincing a lawyer to take your case until the paycheck comes around but even that's not all that hard and there are even some entities that would love to help out the "little guy" when some bullying group of corporate lawyers comes to town (The Center for NonProfit Legal Services is one such, in Oregon).
Gorlack wrote:
You can't really compare this to the music industry. It's much, much harder to download a plastic figure than a datafile besides, a "guy in a garage" would probably not be able to reproduce the figures for less than what GW sells their figures for, unless it was some sort of chineese endavor with kids working for pennies - and then who are the really bad guys?
Meh, one analogy is as fine as another and actually, with current prices, it would be possible to reproduce something on par for less money, barring initial outlay of equipment.
- A plastic injection molding machine runs about $3000 (USD), used, on e-bay
http://cgi.ebay.com/SODICK-TUPARL-TR50S2A-Plastic-Injection-Molding-25-Ton_W0QQitemZ170378706906QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27ab5cbfda - I googled around a bit and found info on initial tooling, so on that would run about $800 per mold.
- supplies are dirt cheap, plastic in bulk is almost free (industrially speaking).
Bottom line, an industrious person could easily charge 1/2 of what GW charges and turn a tidy profit.
Gorlack wrote:I still don't understand what the big fuss is all about. Sure, the prices go up. But would someone be so kind as to mention one product that haven't (hasn't?) increased in price over the last 15 years? And sure they make people on BGG take down their scans of all characters from BB and other clear IP infringements, but most off that stuff was either a) a clear infringement on their copyright or 3) something you could easily recreate if you wanted to. And wait a couple of months and I'm sure most of the stuff will have resurfaced anyway...
I think you're missing the point here; if they're asking people to remove something as simple as pictures of a product legally purchased and painted by themselves, what's next? Are they going to go after "coolminiornot" or the painting and modeling forum on this site?
I don't know about others here but I, myself, am perfectly calm I just like to look at things from all points of view.
Howard A Treesong wrote:I don't understand why you'd need millions to defend a case such as Librarian Online. The eagles look nothing alike and it's dead easy to produce a large volume of historical material that shows where they come from. GW can knock themselves out with legal expenses, no amount of money will overcome that level of common sense.
They have become a vile company of late. I can't see how the apologists can come out saying they it's ok for them to protect their IP. This is just taking the piss. Librarian's eagle is nothing like their own. They seem to think they have rights over the whole hobby and can lean on everyone doing something vaguely similar to themselves.
Except that's exactly not what they're doing.
They're going after people who are using THEIR intellectual property without their consent.
How is that difficult to understand?
Once again,I have to ask why it is that GW viciously defends it's own IP,while feeling apparently justified in using others with in their model range?
Did GW and Geiger come to an agreement in the use of his IP for the use of Tyranid sculpts that are obviously inspired by his work?>
Did GW get permision from Orion pictures to use the likeness of Terminators,on wich Necrons appear to be based?
There's a HUGE difference between "inspired by" and "ripping off".
90ish % sure I've never seen them claim anything other than blatant rip-off/marketing placement attempts(Dreamforge "Battle Cathedrals") as being an issue.
Or the more recent C&Ds against people doing things like...oh y'know, PDFs of rule systems.
Kanluwen, most people understand that GW have the right to protect their trademarks and copyrights by preventing someone else using them. That is not what concerns them.
What people are angry about is the cases where GW have repressed fans and companies who are not trespassing on their trademarks or copyrights.
Then they need to say that, rather than this constant stream of nonsense stating that "Games Workshop screwed over suchandsuch, who clearly did nothing wrong!(other than posting complete rules sets--but the game is out of print! so it's okay!)".
And before you folk start hooting and hollering:
Yes. They do handle it poorly, I know that. But there HAVE been instances that were 100% justifiable, and those instances continually get used as some form of "irrefutable evidence that GW has it out for anyone who's just trying to make a fanmade project(while posting all the rules for the original system)".
You're making an argument from the law, and the people complaining are making an argument from aesthetic morality. You are talking past each other. They don't care that the law allows, or compels, action X. They only care about the fact that action X feels unjust from their position.
I wouldn't trust GW to limit their legal actions to only things that are actually illegal, as it's not in their perceived best interest. Fair use and criticism are legal, for example, but it's not in their best interest to allow either. And since BGG caved in for fear of litigation so quickly, we have no means of ascertaining whether or not everything that was taken down actually infringed on GW in the legal sense.
Howard A Treesong wrote:I don't understand why you'd need millions to defend a case such as Librarian Online. The eagles look nothing alike and it's dead easy to produce a large volume of historical material that shows where they come from. GW can knock themselves out with legal expenses, no amount of money will overcome that level of common sense.
They have become a vile company of late. I can't see how the apologists can come out saying they it's ok for them to protect their IP. This is just taking the piss. Librarian's eagle is nothing like their own. They seem to think they have rights over the whole hobby and can lean on everyone doing something vaguely similar to themselves.
Except that's exactly not what they're doing.
They're going after people who are using THEIR intellectual property without their consent.
How is that difficult to understand?
No they are not, they are claiming ownership of things that simply cannot be claimed to reasonably be their IP. The fact the so much of their stuff isn't original is coming to bite them on the ass. They can't seriously claim that all two headed eagles infringe their own IP, and they sure as hell can't claim ownership of the Chaos star, yet they do. This situation with Ultraforge having their daemon removed because it violates their IP, nonsense, their IP is copying something already in the public domain, they can't retroactively claim ownership of it.
I mean look at the list of things in their suggested disclaimers for private websites..
Yes of course, why just about every race is looted from elsewhere and not at all original, certainly not their IP. The problem at the moment isn't that they print this gak, it's that they have taken to actually believing it and are threatening others in the hobby.
Howard A Treesong wrote:No they are not, they are claiming ownership of things that simply cannot be claimed to reasonably be their IP. The fact the so much of their stuff isn't original is coming to bite them on the ass. They can't seriously claim that all two headed eagles infringe their own IP, and they sure as hell can't claim ownership of the Chaos star, yet they do. This situation with Ultraforge having their daemon removed because it violates their IP, nonsense, their IP is copying something already in the public domain, they can't retroactively claim ownership of it.
I am yet to see an explicit statement from Ultraforge that their model was discontinued because of infringement, has this been confirmed or is it just a brilliant deduction from someone in this fracas?
What is that on your jacket? A Twisted Sister pin?
Jeez I mean come on is someone really profiting from this old stuff. I mean I remember chainsaw warrior...from when I was about 7 or 8 and Gammaraders-SP? LOL. My old game store used to be such a crazy place of SCI-FI, Ahhhh.
Id have loved to play it back then, and this thread makes me want to track down a copy. Now even if I wanted to in a fit of Nostalgia I dont think Id like to. Some of this is a bit much.
Just to play devil's advocate, but perhaps GW defends their IP despite being a pastiche of others' work precisely because they realize how easy it is to have your IP slip away if you're not careful?
I agree with Kanlu, if someone is posting MY rule sets, and making $$$ out of advertising because of it, then i want the $$$!
I honestly think the GW legal guys are a bit harsh, but welcome to 2009. The whole "modern living" thing sucks, not just GW! Most big corporations are the same, but we dont boycott nintendo, sony, MB games or McDonalds.
What else am i going to play? Chess is ok but.. well.. it doesnt have all that fluff i like. And the Chess club guys are alot less interesting than the GW club guys. (well, barring a few of the more pasty mouthbreathers that frequent it)
I will not be boycotting, i might even apply for a job...
mattyrm wrote:
I will not be boycotting, i might even apply for a job...
That's right mate, aim high. The store managers get paid less than the trainee admins in my office. Still, you'll be able to get that amazing GW staff disc...oh wait, you'll be able to get the new GW staff discount... and I'll be buying secondhand from ebay and picking them up cheaper than you whilst earning a wage that doesn't equate to serfdom.
mattyrm wrote:I honestly think the GW legal guys are a bit harsh, but welcome to 2009. The whole "modern living" thing sucks, not just GW!
If that's what you honestly believe, why choose to live at all?
Please dont go there mate... do you know how many teens commit suicide? This is such a deep issue that I believe it should not be putted on the table so lightly... really theres no need for this.
Sometimes I think we need to think a bit on the possible consequences of our words before posting them.
I just don't subscribe to the view that all commercial enterprises are immoral bastards and that the world is a hopeless wasteland of evil corporations. Mostly because I played it back when it was called Cyberpunk 2020.
mattyrm wrote:I honestly think the GW legal guys are a bit harsh, but welcome to 2009. The whole "modern living" thing sucks, not just GW!
If that's what you honestly believe, why choose to live at all?
Please dont go there mate... do you know how many teens commit suicide? This is such a deep issue that I believe it should not be putted on the table so lightly... really theres no need for this.
Sometimes I think we need to think a bit on the possible consequences of our words before posting them.
WTF?
Lets not overreact over someone's choice of words now.
Complete and total irrelevant subject change...MUCH?
Stop Mod-Jerking KK. Discussions like this are always going to be heated. And, quite frankly, it's the apologists that bring out the worst behaviour in everyone with their 'GW can do no wrong' attitude.
Anyway, we played a nice big Dark Heresy scenario today and it went off wonderfully well. Were I to post that anywhere though, I'd get a C&D letter.
Agamemnon2 wrote: insert GW Fan Boy Defensive Statement here.
Sorry do you you actually hold that the actions taken by GW against its fan sites doesnt bother you in the slightest? I suppose your one of those that think they can do no wrong, either that or your an employee or in the running for GW poster child of the year. Either way your intitled to your opinion. but i really have to ask my self what in it for you? (Delete as nessasary if you think im flaming, its not the intent, i really want to know why this dude want to defend em so bad.)
H.B.M.C. wrote:Stop Mod-Jerking KK. Discussions like this are always going to be heated. And, quite frankly, it's the apologists that bring out the worst behaviour in everyone with their 'GW can do no wrong' attitude.
Agamemnon2 wrote:I just don't subscribe to the view that all commercial enterprises are immoral bastards and that the world is a hopeless wasteland of evil corporations. Mostly because I played it back when it was called Cyberpunk 2020.
I know... just saying this is after all a teen heavy board... sorry for offtopic but your comment had to have a little reply... will not drag it though...
On topic
I find that no matter how we address GW latest C&D's, diferent people =diferent takes on this.
As much as I decline this behaviour from any corporation towards its core fans I have no interest in convincing anyone... Instead I will jsut take my business elsewere and concentrate on the positive side of the general hobby... without GW
When did i say i wanted to commit suicide because 2009 is kinda corporate? Where on earth did that come from?
As for these ridiculous angry attacks on people, its rather sad dont you think? As i said, i find is amusing that people get so aggressive when people disgree with them. Your on a website devoted to GW, and you admit that your still buying GW products (but some via ebay?)
Its really rather sad. It seems like some people are stuck in some warped sort of battered wife syndrome... inexorably stuck somewhere between absolute love and seething hatred.
The point is, GW act like dicks sometimes. So do Nintendo, and a whole bunch of other corporations. Deal with it, or dont buy anything from them anymore. Simple as, but dont come on dakkadakka and vent your spleen in some utterly redundant waste of energy.
Some wont buy anymore, some will. Whippee do.
Now get back on topic and happily discuss why you love/hate the company. And lets not have people talking about hanging themselves (i remain genuinelly stunned as to where that came from!) I will only say that the "nerd rage" displayed on here genuinely staggers me. GW will still act like dicks sometimes and the world will keep turning, some of you guys need to calm down. Buy or dont buy.. the choice is entirely yours, but try not to give yourself a coronary eh?
Too true Hawk, the point is, is ANYONE who has a brain, a fan of most big companies practices? It seems to be preaching to the converted salgging off GWs over zealous practices. You aint gonna find anyone that thinks GW behave all nicey nicey are you?
I keep saying Nintendo cos they are famously over zelous as well, we all know this, we al dislike it, but we all play on the wii.
As i said. They dont behave nicely, not many big companies do. But, thats the way of it. Its down to your own personal preference how you deal with it, but people to get a grip is all im saying, this whole site is devoted to GW and the rage some people display stuns me!
Hawkins wrote:Navarro: agreed:
its just a a couple of days sense i stared boycotting, (week 10 days?) but im keeping it up )
Same here, although I only know the minimum time for my personal boycott is 2 months, I have no idea if I will pick up after that... I'm even seriously considering a shift on content at buglands, even if its a gigantic task that would probably take many months.
As I've said before, I really doubt anyone here begrudges GW attempting to make money - they are a business after all. This is more to do with the completely and utterly unecessary methods (and lengths) they are going to to 'protect their IP'.
I mean really, attacking stores for posting pictures of their products? Y'know, stores? Stores who sign up to sell GW products? Stores who help to promote GW's products? And them posting pics is somehow doing harm to GW's IP? WT-F'ing-F?
mattyrm wrote:I agree with Kanlu, if someone is posting MY rule sets, and making $$$ out of advertising because of it, then i want the $$$!
I honestly think the GW legal guys are a bit harsh, but welcome to 2009. The whole "modern living" thing sucks, not just GW! Most big corporations are the same, but we dont boycott nintendo, sony, MB games or McDonalds.
What else am i going to play? Chess is ok but.. well.. it doesnt have all that fluff i like. And the Chess club guys are alot less interesting than the GW club guys. (well, barring a few of the more pasty mouthbreathers that frequent it)
I will not be boycotting, i might even apply for a job...
They weren't posting rules sets, they were posting rules summaries; kind of like cheat sheets that help with turn sequence and the like, you would still need the rules to play in many, if not most, cases. Rules summaries for games that the company hasn't supported or benefited from in a great number of years in many cases. Seriously, when was the last time you saw Chainsaw Warrior or even heard of it for that matter?
And before you say it; yes I know it's their right to pursue protection of their IP, blah blah blah; but at some point a company needs to stop, take a breath, and ask all interested parties; "Are we ever going to do anything with this again? No? Ok then, let's let them have it."
Arguably the best instance of GW doing something like this was with Blood Bowl but now there's a video game and their scrambling to see what else they can lock down in the insane instance of somebody wanting to make a videogame of that too...
I think the nerd rage here is worst than when SW: Episode 1 showed in theatres and caused millions of nerds to panic because it "wasn't the same as the originals".
I'll admit that I normally defend GW in many issues - mainly the ones that involve people critisising the "piece of trash" that's created by them, etc. I believe that GW has very high standards in these things, I do not wish to release such low quality products for sale... Let's not talk about the Blastscape set, shall we? Enough on this!
However, people all too often (including myself) tend to focus on the hobby side of things, such as what new things are coming out next; have already been released; or game rules and the like. It keeps us occupied, interested, and (fairly) content. Well, this is all very good and well, but we all know what really makes the GW machine ticking over - Money. Like has been stated, GW is not what it started out to be. It's now a focused, highly motivated retail business that couldn't care less as long as their profits and shares are on the rise.
Unless these two factors change, GW will just keep going along the same path. What could they be doing wrong? This includes their numerous law-abiding "agressive" activities. Why would they even bother doing so if there was no point? I'm sure that it must have a positive effect somehow, but I just don't know what that is.
It's sad but true that GW has grown into what it is today, in some ways, but hey, they've just released the Fortress of Redemption (yay) and the world's a happy place. Who will even care to remember about them closing down internet fan-sites? Yes, some of you will, but not everybody. Tomorrow will come, and things move on...
Seems a few people are asking why all of a sudden. And it has been all of a sudden for stuff like Chainsaw Warrior.
But rather than postulate in an intelligent manner, it's straight to 'GW R EVULS LULZ!'.
We know they have a license agreement with FFG yes, and it seems to be for non-miniature based games.
And now they are tightening up their IP on their other old games. Is it not at least conceivable that they are doing so in readiness to license out those games to a third party?
This is my issue. People are jumping to conclusions and getting their knickers in a twist over precious little.
And N.B.....Apologist refers to someone defending an idea or belief. Not an action.
You are called an apologist because you defend GW regardless of the particular action or motive but simply because it's games workshop carrying out the action.
You also lack the ability to grasp despite NUMEROUS posts, that noone here cares about GW ensuring they have kept their IP, what we care about IS THE METHODS EMPLOYED.
For heaven's sake, GW are attacking fan created sites... as in created.by.fans. some of whom would probably have argued in GWs defense in just as rabid a manner as you do.
It shat on it's own fans and customers, there were other ways to do what it needed to do and it took the lazy, arrogant and bullying way out. I've already explained that sites could have had a package drawn up by GW legal that included disclaimers for them to carry.
They could have acted to support these sites and bring them both a suitable outcome, instead they fired on them.
mattyrm wrote:I agree with Kanlu, if someone is posting MY rule sets, and making $$$ out of advertising because of it, then i want the $$$!
I honestly think the GW legal guys are a bit harsh, but welcome to 2009. The whole "modern living" thing sucks, not just GW! Most big corporations are the same, but we dont boycott nintendo, sony, MB games or McDonalds.
What else am i going to play? Chess is ok but.. well.. it doesnt have all that fluff i like. And the Chess club guys are alot less interesting than the GW club guys. (well, barring a few of the more pasty mouthbreathers that frequent it)
I will not be boycotting, i might even apply for a job...
They weren't posting rules sets, they were posting rules summaries; kind of like cheat sheets that help with turn sequence and the like, you would still need the rules to play in many, if not most, cases. Rules summaries for games that the company hasn't supported or benefited from in a great number of years in many cases. Seriously, when was the last time you saw Chainsaw Warrior or even heard of it for that matter?
And before you say it; yes I know it's their right to pursue protection of their IP, blah blah blah; but at some point a company needs to stop, take a breath, and ask all interested parties; "Are we ever going to do anything with this again? No? Ok then, let's let them have it."
Arguably the best instance of GW doing something like this was with Blood Bowl but now there's a video game and their scrambling to see what else they can lock down in the insane instance of somebody wanting to make a videogame of that too...
Psst. There's the chance that the aforementioned games that "GW will never do anything with again"...are games that they CANNOT do anything with. There's a chance that they are the brainchild of former employees, which if they were made back in the 80s, can claim IP on their individual projects. There's also a number of games that they did under license to other companies, which if they were to reissue would most likely be a huge breach in IP law on GW's part.
Thing is, it's not a right to defend your IP, it's an obligation. If it's challenged, and you don't defend it then open season is declared and you're naffed.
But when GW do it, it's automatically a hostile act. I really don't get some people. Websites have been offering IP material, or derivations thereof.
Sending a C&D letter is declared 'heavy handed bullying' whereas I disagree. What should they have done? A C&D letter is simply an official request to knock it off. Had they moved straight to full on legal action I'd agree they are being vicious. But they aren't to my knowledge.
And fair enough on the Dictionary thing, but I still don't see protecting IP in any way being controversial.
MDG, please please please actually READ what the other posters are saying. No one is disputing the need for GW to defend their IP- ABSOLUTELY NO ONE. I don't know where you're getting the spectres you're arguing against from. What we're saying is that there are other ways than Cease and Desist and forcing material to be taken down that companies can use- ways that are inclusive, and supportive, and that build the fan community rather than pissing on it. Such as MGS excellent suggestion of a "disclaimer pack" legal protection AND lots of excellent fan created content to continue to build enthusiasm? What's wrong with that? Surely it's better than LESS content and a whole load of pissed off former customers? Can you see what I'm saying here, and why what you're arguing against is so frustrating for those of us with this view? THAT is why internet debates get so heated- because everyone is talking past or at each other instead of communicating.
If you put the following on the front of your website, prominently, we won't have an issue with you using our stuff and we'd also like to thank you for the support you've shown to our specialist games.
"We at Bloodbowl Mania.com entirely recognise that Bloodbowl the game of fantasy football and all it's associated trademarked names (listed) are the sole Intellectual Property of Games Workshop PLC, our site in no way threatens or challenges the ownership of the aforementioned trademarks. The use of the trademarked names on this site is made possible by the kind permission of Games Workshop PLC, who retain all rights to the Intellectual Property found herein. We at Bloodbowl Mania simply seek to enjoy the hobby aspects of the game and will abide by, and continue to liaise with, Games Workshop PLC."
And also, if you do that, make it a decent looking site and make sure we don't find clear breaches of copyright/IP, we'll even add your link to a list of links we are going to add to a new page on our website.
We hope this will be the beginning of an excellent working relationship. We hope you appreciate the need we have to legally retain our IP and as fans of the games we make, we hope we can rely on your help to ensure that.
Bear with me here, because this is going to take some asplainin'.
The way it currently works, if the actual video game does not do well--the studio that GW licensed it out to can bring GW to court for not properly supporting their release/protecting the IP.
Following?
You do know that Cyanide, the company that made the Blood Bowl computer game, did so with a gun at it's head because it made a 'fantasy football' computer game called Chaos League and GW settled with them out of court over it.
The Blood Bowl computer game is the result of GW's out of court settlement.
They even ate the title 'chaos league' and it now belongs to the borg.. I mean GW.
So your point is that they tried to get away with making a cheap knockoff of Blood Bowl and got caught...and then get it released under far better circumstances and carrying a recognized license?
MeanGreenStompa wrote:You are called an apologist because you defend GW regardless of the particular action or motive but simply because it's games workshop carrying out the action.
How about everybody stops calling everybody else names, so we don't have to lock the thread and start handing out suspensions?
A trademark such as the name Blood Bowl™ needs to be defended and undoubtedly forms part of the licence agreement with THQ doing the computer game.
For obvious commercial reasons, the contract with THQ would also have restrained GW from allowing any other third party to release a computer game of Blood Bowl so that is why GW went after the guys with the little Blood Bowl iPhone app or whatever it was.
Copyrights do not have to be defended.
They can be used by third parties under various arrangements including Fair Use, a proper licence, or just by the proprietor deciding to ignore their wrongful use. Which is how GW let Boardgamegeek carry scans of their cards for such a long time.
It is questionable whether GW have the legal or moral right to demand people to take down things such as summaries, quick reference sheets and other play aids which GW have never published. It would depend on exactly what was in the user published game aid, and a court case would be needed to decide each example. As it is, GW are just using their scary size to crush dissent.
(Comparing with the music industry, if web sites are carrying scans of entire games, it shows there is a demand for them. When the games are long OOP, it might be cleverer for GW to offer the scans themselves rather than just try to prevent other people from offering them.)
Lastly, the threat to delete all special characters from BB v6 if third party companies advertise their figures as being ideal to represent star player X in Blood Bowl, is a different thing. It is not a defence of IP at all. It is an attack on the ability of third parties to sell compatible components. It is also a threat against their own customers.
In summary, in three waves of repressions, GW have mixed together some sensible moves and some dubious ones.
It isn’t fair to criticise GW for the trademark issue, and it isn’t fair to defend them for some of the other stuff.
It's sad but true that GW has grown into what it is today, in some ways, but hey, they've just released the Fortress of Redemption (yay) and the world's a happy place. Who will even care to remember about them closing down internet fan-sites? Yes, some of you will, but not everybody. Tomorrow will come, and things move on...
The problem is...the hobby side of things is exactly what drew a great deal of folks in. The days, not really that long ago, where in a citadel journal they had this awesome converted build chaos dread from something like 100 different parts, including car parts....and they say "hey here's how they did it".
But nowadays they've removed bits service and just want to sell models....which is ok, but if your going to hard sell a bunch of over-priced plastic toys, you gotta give them(the fans....er...the customers, not fans based on how you are treating them) a reason other than the tired line of "we're the porche of gaming models"
Because honestly, there are more than a few that are as good or better. For cheaper. Antagonizing your fan base isnt going to keep them.
Kilkrazy wrote:A trademark such as the name Blood Bowl™ needs to be defended and undoubtedly forms part of the licence agreement with THQ doing the computer game.
It's a minor point, but I don't think BB was from THQ...
Comparing with the music industry, if web sites are carrying scans of entire games, it shows there is a demand for them. When the games are long OOP, it might be cleverer for GW to offer the scans themselves rather than just try to prevent other people from offering them.
Somebody in one of these threads (can't remember if it was this one or one of the others, they're all blurring together) mentioned the FFG link there. They mentioned a while back that FFG had been contracted to produce boardgames for GW. So without touching the legal or moral 'rightness' of it all, it's entirely likely that this wave of C&D's over games that people think are long dead is related to that... If they're looking at dusting some of these old titles off, they don't want freebies of the old version floating around on the internet.
I do not think that it justifies legally or morally the suppression of player created items such as Quick Reference Sheets, which are created to supplement the original game.
And again, to the truth of what's being said here:
1. GW have the right to protect their IP.
2. The methods employed have been called into question since they seemed to be short, sharp shock tactics instead of working to an accord.
3. Some folks here defending GW state point 1 whilst the rest of us were angered by point 2.
4. No one who's defending is actually saying why GW shouldn't have just taken the time and effort to find a peaceful and mutually beneficial accord. The disclaimer I wrote a few posts up, for example.
Conclusion:
-Yes GW should be protecting it's IP.
-No it should not have behaved as it has.
-No, it does not appear to give a rat's ass about how it's behaved.
-Yes, we can demonstrate our disapproval at GWs actions by not making GW purchases.
-Yes, those who don't care about how GW treated those fans can continue to make purchases and ignore those who choose to take action.
- Please make it clear that your use is unofficial by including some wording to the effect that, for example, "This website is completely unofficial and in no way endorsed by Games Workshop Limited." Are people likely to be confused as to whether your web site or any material was produced by Games Workshop just by looking at it? If so, then you need to alter it. In other words, do not try to make your material look "official."
- Please do not change our trademarks in any way (e.g., stretch or deform them)
- Include an appropriate disclaimer on your web site from the list on the following webpage
- Please make the origins of the intellectual property very clear, in other words, make sure that from a brief review of your material people know that you are unofficially using Games Workshop's intellectual property (and not your own IP or the IP of a third party).
WHAT YOU CANNOT DO WITH GAMES WORKSHOP'S INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
Please read the following in conjunction with the What you can do section above and the Specific Examples section below. Other than a few exemptions, Games Workshop is not obliged to let anyone use its IP at all (for example, it's a widely held misconception that you can freely make use of someone else's copyrights, without their permission, as long as it's for your own private use - this is currently not an automatic exemption to copyright), and accordingly we always insist that our IP is treated with the respect that we feel that it deserves.
So, If you are using or want to use our intellectual property and you do not have a written license with us, you must not:
- Use Games Workshop's intellectual property in relation to any commercial activity this includes, for example, paying a printer to print some flyers for you, obtaining sponsorship, or selling non-Games Workshop materials using our trademarks.
- Make any direct copies and/or scans of Games Workshop publications, images, or other materials. This includes any Out-o- Production materials, web site materials, and White Dwarf articles. We would however suggest that you produce your own materials (as long as you follow the other requirements of this policy).
- Use our trademarks in respect of your domain name.
- Use our intellectual property in relation to any third party products or third party intellectual property.
- Alter our trademarks in any way.
- Use any of our IP without appropriately crediting the IP and using the appropriate disclaimers in accordance with this policy (see below).
- Create, distribute, or use any material that is not consistent with the functionality, atmosphere, and parameters of the Warhammer universe as created and owned by Games Workshop
- State that anything that you create using Games Workshop's intellectual property is "official."
- Create, distribute, or use any material that is derogatory, obscene, or offensive.
- Create, distribute, or use any material that devalues any Games Workshop product in any way.
SPECIFIC EXAMPLES
In addition to the above rules, we have additional rules for specific uses of our IP. The following is a definitive list of activities and uses that Games Workshop will usually not take active steps to prevent. If your proposed use is not on the list, it is highly likely that we will not permit it. This list may change from time to time so please check it regularly.
Web Sites
Please don't use one of our trademarks to directly identify your web sit (e.g., "The Space Hulk Home Page"). This right is reserved for GW companies and formal licensees only.
This doesn't mean that you can't use our trademarks to talk about our stuff, it just means you need to make it clear that description is the reason why you are using them (e.g., "Cleanse and Burn - my web page dedicated to Games Workshop's Space Hulk game") is fine because you're using our trademarks to simply describe what your web page is about and because it identifies us as the publishers of the game.
Also, please do not use any material from the official Games Workshop websites. Instead, we suggest that you make your own.
Web Names
Please don't use one of our registered trademarks as part of your web domain name. This right is reserved for GW companies and formal licensees only.
Educational Use
Unfortunately, we currently cannot give official "permission" for students to use our IP in relation to their studies for reasons of possible licensing conflicts. Unofficial permission would be governed by the remainder of this document and the specific use of the IP. We would point you in the direction of the "fair use" (US) or "fair dealing" (UK) rules in relation to copyright protected materials and research/educational usage. Be aware that there is not an equivalent doctrine for trademark usage.
Maps
We would ask you not to take direct scans or copies of our maps. We suggest that you create your own equivalents. Again, please avoid reproducing our trademarks.
Making Terrain
If you simply make the terrain for yourself and you have no intention of selling it, any use of our IP in relation to your terrain will probably be okay. Do not reproduce our trademarks. However, as always, you cannot use our intellectual property in relation to a commercial activity - if you make and sell terrain, please avoid using any Games Workshop intellectual property in or in relation to that terrain. For example, do not sell it on Ebay as "Warhammer terrain," as it is not Warhammer terrain. Indeed, only Games Workshop could produce Warhammer Terrain.
Bandwidth Theft and Mirroring Resources
We do not tolerate deep linking to the pictures, images, PDFs or other downloads on our website. Such activity is bandwidth theft. Also, do not mirror the resources that we have on our websites. So, if you want other people to see the materials that we have produced, please use a simple HTML link to the relevant web page.
Themes
While we are likely to be happy for you to create your own desktop themes based upon our IP, please do not use our trademarks in those themes. In other words, do not use our logos and symbols, but please do draw your own version of a Wood Elf or Tyranid.
Background text is a major part of the hobby and writing your own is almost as much fun as reading it. Please remember to use the correct trademark disclaimer somewhere on your site, zip file and/or document. We would also ask that at the top of the material you state something equivalent to the following: "Death Ravine" an unofficial story by K. Roundtree derived, without permission, upon the Warhammer intellectual property owned by Games Workshop Ltd." Please note that we consider any background material you write to be a work which is derivative of our intellectual property. As such, you should refrain from putting any notice claiming that anyone other than Games Workshop Ltd has any right over Games Workshop-owned intellectual property or derivatives thereof.
Rules
We encourage fellow hobbyists to invent rules that work for them. There is no need to stick precisely to the published rules. However, if you are thinking about making your own Codex for your Space Marine chapter (in addition to following the other guidelines in this policy), please avoid making it look official as this may confuse gamers and amount to a challenge to our trademarks. Also, do not copy our official publications or documents.
Conversions
Conversions are a major aspect of the hobby, although in intellectual property terms, they also constitute a major infringement. However, we are certainly not about to stop people making cool conversions of our products, although, there are certain things to keep in mind:
Please do not combine our intellectual properties with IP owned by any third parties.
Your conversions should be one-time, unique masterpieces of hobby goodness. Do not create a production run of conversions for sale. Whilst infringing our IP, this is also simply not hobby.
Casting
Do not cast any materials that are based upon Games Workshop material. Games Workshop has to maintain a strict policy on this to fight counterfeiters. We would also remind you that reproduction for personal use is NOT an automatic exclusion in respect of copyright protection in many territories worldwide.
Unreleased Material
While we know that it is always cool to see new material before it arrives on the shelves, we would ask you not to publish, or link to other sites that publish, any material that has not been officially reported or released by Games Workshop. This does not apply to small pieces of conjecture written in your "rumors" section (unless of course said "rumors" are akin to publishing unreleased material).
Forums
We have no problem with people using forums to express their love (or even hate) of the hobby. We would, however, ask people to bear in mind that the hobby is for people all ages. Please be careful of the language used and the topics discussed. We would strongly recommend that you avoid any discussion of illegal behavior.
Movies
The video games that our licensing partners have created have done an incredible job of bringing the Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 games to life, and we appreciate that hobbyists may even want to make movies based upon our intellectual property. Unfortunately, due to the nuances of the law in some territories, we cannot allow any unlicensed movies to be created which are based upon our intellectual property.
Modifications, Total Conversions, and Games
We want people to express their enjoyment of our games with as little interference from us as possible, as long as they behave reasonably with our IP and follow any reasonable requests that we may make. We are not inherently opposed to hobbyists creating games or mods using our IP, in fact we are flattered that people want to spend so much time creating games and mods in the GW universes.
If you want to make a game, TC or a mod using our IP you must adhere to the following (in addition to the general principles as outlined above):
Any game or mod must be a "total conversion." In other words, you must not use our intellectual property (logos, images, names etc.) in relation to the worlds, names, logos, or images of any other company. For example, you cannot place our Space Marines in a Disney total conversion using the Unreal engine, but you could make a TC solely using Space Marines with the Unreal engine. This is, of course, assuming that you have permission to use the Unreal engine.
Please bear in mind that we may require you to remove the game or mod from any public forum at any time so that we can comply with any licenses that we may have with computer game publishers/developers. Be aware that we may even have to insist that the mod be destroyed. Please take very careful note of this statement, as we would not want you to feel unfairly treated at a later date.
The game or mod must be strictly non-commercial - this includes any web site that the mod or game is hosted on. You also cannot pay a printing company to publilsh copies of it onto CD. It may also mean that you cannot get sponsorship.
It must be made clear on any readme files, splash/intro screens and accompanying material that the game or mod is unofficial and the origins of the intellectual property must be made obvious (e.g., your mod might say "Battletoes a total conversion for XXXX (insert game name) using intellectual property owned by Games Workshop. Used without permission...etc." See the relevant disclaimer on the following page.).
The game or mod must not devalue any Games Workshop product in any way.
Any distribution (zipped or otherwise) of the whole, or any part, of the mod or game must be accompanied with the appropriate disclaimers and must also follow these guidelines.
The functionality, atmosphere, and parameters of any mod or game must be consistent with the relevant IP.
Skins
Unfortunately, GW cannot allow thirds parties to use our IP without properly crediting our ownership. It is not possible to credit ownership with skins and accordingly we do not allow their creation.
Online Auctions
Do not use our trademarks in relation to products that are not owned by or originate from Games Workshop (see Making Terrain above).
Do not associate our products or IP with any third party products or IP.
We would encourage you to use digital photographs of any materials that you are planning on selling. Do not use any materials from any GW website to sell the product.
Café Press
We cannot allow users to make and or sell derivatives of our copyright protected material or our trademarks on the café press or any similar websites.
Web Comics
We would probably not take issue with anyone creating a web comic based upon our intellectual property - but as with forums, keep in mind that the hobby is for people of all ages. Please be careful of the language used and the topics discussed. We would strongly recommend that you avoid any topics concerning illegal behavior, obscenity, or libel.
Fonts
Unfortunately, GW cannot allow third parties to use our trademarks without properly crediting our ownership, lest they be damaged. With fonts, it is difficult, if not impossible, to use the marks and credit Games Workshop as rightful owners. Accordingly, do not use our IP in relation to fonts.
Screen Savers
As is the case with fonts, GW cannot allow third parties to use our trademarks without properly crediting our ownership, lest they be damaged. You may only create screen savers if it properly credits our IP. We would also remind you that you cannot alter or change our trademarks in any way.
Animations
We would probably not have a problem with anyone creating animations based upon our intellectual property - as long as there is no commercial connection to that creation. Again, please be careful of the language used and the topics discussed.
Club Names and Trademarks
We actively encourage hobbyists to begin their own clubs connected with the hobby. In fact, in most territories, we have an employee tasked with helping people set up and run their clubs. However, we would advise anyone with a club or starting a club to avoid directly using our trademarks (do not, for example call the club, "The Warhammer Club"). Instead, create your own names, such as "The Hellfire Hunters," "Da Narsty Boarz," or other, far more creative names than these pathetic examples.
Fanzines
Fanzines are a great way to immerse yourself in the hobby. However, if you are thinking about starting a fanzine, please do not use our trademarks. Again, we would remind you that the main principles set out at the head of this page apply to fanzines, as they do to all of the specific examples herein. Importantly, if you are creating a solely GW-focused fanzine, do not sell your fanzine and do not obtain any sponsorship.
Out-of-Print Material
Please do not scan, copy, or republish any out-of-print (OOP) materials. It may be that in the future we reuse or license out the use of this material.
Out of Production Games
We frequently get requests from the older hobbyists out there to make computer versions of our old games - some of you out there will remember games like Blockmania, Chainsaw Warrior and indeed Talisman from many years ago, and a lot of those that do remember them very fondly indeed. There are three good reasons why we cannot allow this - one of which is simply that it will necessarily make use of our copyright in ways that are not permitted anywhere else in this document. Secondly, providing a system for playing the game on the internet effectively means that you could play the game without having ever bought it originally, which therefore devalues Games Workshop products as outlined above. Finally, as with Talisman, it may be that we decide to revisit some of these games at some time in the future to create a better, updated version for all.
E-mail Lists
Placing scans or copies of any Games Workshop material on an e-mail list or news group is a violation of our rights and amounts to a serious infringement. Please do not participate in this activity, and if you are aware of it, please write to the legal department on the following email address: Legal@games-workshop.co.uk
Thank you very much for your compliance with the above policies. We know that there is a lot here and appreciate that you have taken the time to read it all.
How about this then, GW does what GW does, the earth is round and the sky is blue. C'est la vie and no I am not going to boycott them. You want to get GW to get a point? Put Jervis' severed head in the bed of the CEO of GW instead, that should bring a smile and cheer to the old farts here.
BrookM, your avatar as always makes me wanna type with one hand.
But on topic. i cant accept live and let live with the GW corp. not when GW uses needlessly harsh and silly methods when inforcing their IP. they should and will inforce it, but there is no reason why GW cant act as MGS suggests towards the fans of its games..
*goes off to have a cold shower.... Ummmmm avatar....*
MeanGreenStompa wrote:-Yes, those who don't care about how GW treated those fans can continue to make purchases and ignore those who choose to take action.
Pretty much - End of. I'll continue to make purchases from GW. If Dakka was ever to be shut down in the manor that others have been delt with, I won't know what to think. I suppose that I'll certainely have much more time to spare as I'm not on here... But seriously, the internet is the biggest hobby resource that I, and most certainely GW, have.
You know what? I think that GW wants a forum of their own again. They want it all centered around them - Total domination, so to speak. I wouldn't have know about half of the things that go on in the world if it wasn't for the interenet. How many people, do you think, have verged away from GW because of this? I didn't know about anything about our hobby before I began to venture onto here, apart from the WD, of course. Apparenly not even WD is expressive about upcoming releases/things not GW - Neither are many things GW makes now days.
I conlude by saying the GW is attempting to wrestle more control from the community - online and off. Of couse they won't take all control. That's impossible. They'll definately move onto YouTube next, mark my words. It's all going to be fun and wargames to talk about in the near future - that is - if we're able to communicate online about it at all on internet forums...
Almost seems to me that part of the reason for GW to go with the cease and desist as opposed to the inclusion method people have been proposing, is because the cease and desist has several benefits.
First, it's faster and relatively cheap. Being large and able to throw money into it if necessary will cause most sites to capitulate, as they really can't afford to get in an expensive legal battle.
Second, it's easier and cheaper than including them, and asking them to not post or do anything that intrudes upon their IP. Because once you do that, now you have to monitor the site, and everything that gets posted there, including any forum posts, to make sure that they're holding up to their end of the bargain. Which means you have to let the sites know specifically what does and does not violate the IP, employ someone(s) to check out the sites on a regular basis, and keep communication up with them, to advise the sites when something is posted that does violate their IP, and communicate when the IP changes to include more material. With such a large fan base, and the ease of which someone can open up their own site and start publishing material, the task of keeping up with all of this can quickly grow overwhelming and fairly costly. Several MMO sites will have a community manager to deal with reading the huge amount of posts that people make on their sites, and it's a full time job. Monitoring hundreds of fan sites for anything that might violate the IP, on a continual basis, would be fairly pricey.
While helping to keep fans interested might help keep sales up, there's a certain point where the income due to such goodwill does not significantly outweigh the costs of supporting that goodwill, or the costs of displaying a definite lack of that goodwill.
Kanluwen wrote:
Psst. There's the chance that the aforementioned games that "GW will never do anything with again"...are games that they CANNOT do anything with. There's a chance that they are the brainchild of former employees, which if they were made back in the 80s, can claim IP on their individual projects. There's also a number of games that they did under license to other companies, which if they were to reissue would most likely be a huge breach in IP law on GW's part.
Completely agree with you...so....er...why'd you quote me?
Kanluwen wrote:
Psst. There's the chance that the aforementioned games that "GW will never do anything with again"...are games that they CANNOT do anything with. There's a chance that they are the brainchild of former employees, which if they were made back in the 80s, can claim IP on their individual projects. There's also a number of games that they did under license to other companies, which if they were to reissue would most likely be a huge breach in IP law on GW's part.
Completely agree with you...so....er...why'd you quote me?
Musta misread the tone of your post, especially the part saying that GW needs to step back and think if they'll ever do anything with it again, I guess.
Or maybe I was using it for emphasis, I don't even know anymore
mattyrm wrote:I agree with Kanlu, if someone is posting MY rule sets, and making $$$ out of advertising because of it, then i want the $$$!
That's my problem with IP laws in general. I don't think it would be right to go and make a full live action Space Marine movie, but even if someone is making what amoounts to barely any money, who cares? So much more interesting stuff would be available to the community as a whole if people weren't so profit driven.
I've yet to see any case where I could believe a major company was suffering a relevant financial loss to justify their actions.
I just found something online about the Librarium stuff. Turns out, it was the old logo, GW was upset about:
That is definetly the GW aquilla, no doubt about that.
I'm not defending them in any way, but it makes (a bit) more sense now.
Kinda going off-topic here, so ignore if it might derail the thread too far:
I'm going to write a review about the blood bowl game for a website I work for. I was planning on showing a pic or three of my painted BB minis on the board. Is that legal?
That does make a bit more sense. And would explain why the letter complained about Zazzle sales but not about the logo actually on the website itself, if they still had items listed there with the old logo.
It seems that at the bottom of nearly all of these actions by GW is at least a reasonable problem. Not all certainly, and GW is far more aggressive than any other company, but I think there is some merit to the bulk of the claims.
I think what's really frustrating is the intensity and volume of the C&D letters. It's not like each person is going to review two dozen separate cases.
Anung Un Rama wrote:I just found something online about the Librarium stuff. Turns out, it was the old logo, GW was upset about:
That is definetly the GW aquilla, no doubt about that.
I'm not defending them in any way, but it makes (a bit) more sense now.
Kinda going off-topic here, so ignore if it might derail the thread too far:
I'm going to write a review about the blood bowl game for a website I work for. I was planning on showing a pic or three of my painted BB minis on the board. Is that legal?
Dat looks like Dis:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/vojnovic2/595646996/ So how the heck can GW claim a russian symbol as IP thats been around for ever? germany and Austria also have the double eagle. can some one either explain this or point me to the place where i can read where this could even remotely be the IP of GW?
Certain symbols and objects can be copyrighted when done in a certain style. The Aquila is done in a very distinct style (nine or so pieces, each piece representing an aspect of the Imperium), thus can be copyrighted.
They can't claim 'two headed eagle' as theirs, but they can claim the imperial aquila as theirs.
Whether they choose to go after a forum dedicated to their own products about using it is up to them, as is the right to cut off their own nose precisely to spite their face...
They're both double-headed eagles, but beyond that look nothing alike.
A trademark covers the specific image being protected. This stops people from duplicating that image, or from using anything that is too similar (keeping in mind that it often takes a court to decide whether something is too similar or not).
SO GW can claim the Imperial Aquila as their own IP because it is a symbol that they created and that they trademarked, and that is distinct and (in the details) different from other double headed eagle symbols.
So far as the law is concerned, it's all down to the details.
Anung Un Rama wrote:I'm going to write a review about the blood bowl game for a website I work for. I was planning on showing a pic or three of my painted BB minis on the board. Is that legal?
- Please make it clear that your use is unofficial by including some wording to the effect that, for example, "This website is completely unofficial and in no way endorsed by Games Workshop Limited." Are people likely to be confused as to whether your web site or any material was produced by Games Workshop just by looking at it? If so, then you need to alter it. In other words, do not try to make your material look "official."
- Please do not change our trademarks in any way (e.g., stretch or deform them)
- Include an appropriate disclaimer on your web site from the list on the following webpage
- Please make the origins of the intellectual property very clear, in other words, make sure that from a brief review of your material people know that you are unofficially using Games Workshop's intellectual property (and not your own IP or the IP of a third party).
WHAT YOU CANNOT DO WITH GAMES WORKSHOP'S INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
Please read the following in conjunction with the What you can do section above and the Specific Examples section below. Other than a few exemptions, Games Workshop is not obliged to let anyone use its IP at all (for example, it's a widely held misconception that you can freely make use of someone else's copyrights, without their permission, as long as it's for your own private use - this is currently not an automatic exemption to copyright), and accordingly we always insist that our IP is treated with the respect that we feel that it deserves.
So, If you are using or want to use our intellectual property and you do not have a written license with us, you must not:
- Use Games Workshop's intellectual property in relation to any commercial activity this includes, for example, paying a printer to print some flyers for you, obtaining sponsorship, or selling non-Games Workshop materials using our trademarks.
- Make any direct copies and/or scans of Games Workshop publications, images, or other materials. This includes any Out-o- Production materials, web site materials, and White Dwarf articles. We would however suggest that you produce your own materials (as long as you follow the other requirements of this policy).
- Use our trademarks in respect of your domain name.
- Use our intellectual property in relation to any third party products or third party intellectual property.
- Alter our trademarks in any way.
- Use any of our IP without appropriately crediting the IP and using the appropriate disclaimers in accordance with this policy (see below).
- Create, distribute, or use any material that is not consistent with the functionality, atmosphere, and parameters of the Warhammer universe as created and owned by Games Workshop
- State that anything that you create using Games Workshop's intellectual property is "official."
- Create, distribute, or use any material that is derogatory, obscene, or offensive.
- Create, distribute, or use any material that devalues any Games Workshop product in any way.
SPECIFIC EXAMPLES
In addition to the above rules, we have additional rules for specific uses of our IP. The following is a definitive list of activities and uses that Games Workshop will usually not take active steps to prevent. If your proposed use is not on the list, it is highly likely that we will not permit it. This list may change from time to time so please check it regularly.
Web Sites
Please don't use one of our trademarks to directly identify your web sit (e.g., "The Space Hulk Home Page"). This right is reserved for GW companies and formal licensees only.
This doesn't mean that you can't use our trademarks to talk about our stuff, it just means you need to make it clear that description is the reason why you are using them (e.g., "Cleanse and Burn - my web page dedicated to Games Workshop's Space Hulk game") is fine because you're using our trademarks to simply describe what your web page is about and because it identifies us as the publishers of the game.
Also, please do not use any material from the official Games Workshop websites. Instead, we suggest that you make your own.
Web Names
Please don't use one of our registered trademarks as part of your web domain name. This right is reserved for GW companies and formal licensees only.
Educational Use
Unfortunately, we currently cannot give official "permission" for students to use our IP in relation to their studies for reasons of possible licensing conflicts. Unofficial permission would be governed by the remainder of this document and the specific use of the IP. We would point you in the direction of the "fair use" (US) or "fair dealing" (UK) rules in relation to copyright protected materials and research/educational usage. Be aware that there is not an equivalent doctrine for trademark usage.
Maps
We would ask you not to take direct scans or copies of our maps. We suggest that you create your own equivalents. Again, please avoid reproducing our trademarks.
Making Terrain
If you simply make the terrain for yourself and you have no intention of selling it, any use of our IP in relation to your terrain will probably be okay. Do not reproduce our trademarks. However, as always, you cannot use our intellectual property in relation to a commercial activity - if you make and sell terrain, please avoid using any Games Workshop intellectual property in or in relation to that terrain. For example, do not sell it on Ebay as "Warhammer terrain," as it is not Warhammer terrain. Indeed, only Games Workshop could produce Warhammer Terrain.
Bandwidth Theft and Mirroring Resources
We do not tolerate deep linking to the pictures, images, PDFs or other downloads on our website. Such activity is bandwidth theft. Also, do not mirror the resources that we have on our websites. So, if you want other people to see the materials that we have produced, please use a simple HTML link to the relevant web page.
Themes
While we are likely to be happy for you to create your own desktop themes based upon our IP, please do not use our trademarks in those themes. In other words, do not use our logos and symbols, but please do draw your own version of a Wood Elf or Tyranid.
Background text is a major part of the hobby and writing your own is almost as much fun as reading it. Please remember to use the correct trademark disclaimer somewhere on your site, zip file and/or document. We would also ask that at the top of the material you state something equivalent to the following: "Death Ravine" an unofficial story by K. Roundtree derived, without permission, upon the Warhammer intellectual property owned by Games Workshop Ltd." Please note that we consider any background material you write to be a work which is derivative of our intellectual property. As such, you should refrain from putting any notice claiming that anyone other than Games Workshop Ltd has any right over Games Workshop-owned intellectual property or derivatives thereof.
Rules
We encourage fellow hobbyists to invent rules that work for them. There is no need to stick precisely to the published rules. However, if you are thinking about making your own Codex for your Space Marine chapter (in addition to following the other guidelines in this policy), please avoid making it look official as this may confuse gamers and amount to a challenge to our trademarks. Also, do not copy our official publications or documents.
Conversions
Conversions are a major aspect of the hobby, although in intellectual property terms, they also constitute a major infringement. However, we are certainly not about to stop people making cool conversions of our products, although, there are certain things to keep in mind:
Please do not combine our intellectual properties with IP owned by any third parties.
Your conversions should be one-time, unique masterpieces of hobby goodness. Do not create a production run of conversions for sale. Whilst infringing our IP, this is also simply not hobby.
Casting
Do not cast any materials that are based upon Games Workshop material. Games Workshop has to maintain a strict policy on this to fight counterfeiters. We would also remind you that reproduction for personal use is NOT an automatic exclusion in respect of copyright protection in many territories worldwide.
Unreleased Material
While we know that it is always cool to see new material before it arrives on the shelves, we would ask you not to publish, or link to other sites that publish, any material that has not been officially reported or released by Games Workshop. This does not apply to small pieces of conjecture written in your "rumors" section (unless of course said "rumors" are akin to publishing unreleased material).
Forums
We have no problem with people using forums to express their love (or even hate) of the hobby. We would, however, ask people to bear in mind that the hobby is for people all ages. Please be careful of the language used and the topics discussed. We would strongly recommend that you avoid any discussion of illegal behavior.
Movies
The video games that our licensing partners have created have done an incredible job of bringing the Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 games to life, and we appreciate that hobbyists may even want to make movies based upon our intellectual property. Unfortunately, due to the nuances of the law in some territories, we cannot allow any unlicensed movies to be created which are based upon our intellectual property.
Modifications, Total Conversions, and Games
We want people to express their enjoyment of our games with as little interference from us as possible, as long as they behave reasonably with our IP and follow any reasonable requests that we may make. We are not inherently opposed to hobbyists creating games or mods using our IP, in fact we are flattered that people want to spend so much time creating games and mods in the GW universes.
If you want to make a game, TC or a mod using our IP you must adhere to the following (in addition to the general principles as outlined above):
Any game or mod must be a "total conversion." In other words, you must not use our intellectual property (logos, images, names etc.) in relation to the worlds, names, logos, or images of any other company. For example, you cannot place our Space Marines in a Disney total conversion using the Unreal engine, but you could make a TC solely using Space Marines with the Unreal engine. This is, of course, assuming that you have permission to use the Unreal engine.
Please bear in mind that we may require you to remove the game or mod from any public forum at any time so that we can comply with any licenses that we may have with computer game publishers/developers. Be aware that we may even have to insist that the mod be destroyed. Please take very careful note of this statement, as we would not want you to feel unfairly treated at a later date.
The game or mod must be strictly non-commercial - this includes any web site that the mod or game is hosted on. You also cannot pay a printing company to publilsh copies of it onto CD. It may also mean that you cannot get sponsorship.
It must be made clear on any readme files, splash/intro screens and accompanying material that the game or mod is unofficial and the origins of the intellectual property must be made obvious (e.g., your mod might say "Battletoes a total conversion for XXXX (insert game name) using intellectual property owned by Games Workshop. Used without permission...etc." See the relevant disclaimer on the following page.).
The game or mod must not devalue any Games Workshop product in any way.
Any distribution (zipped or otherwise) of the whole, or any part, of the mod or game must be accompanied with the appropriate disclaimers and must also follow these guidelines.
The functionality, atmosphere, and parameters of any mod or game must be consistent with the relevant IP.
Skins
Unfortunately, GW cannot allow thirds parties to use our IP without properly crediting our ownership. It is not possible to credit ownership with skins and accordingly we do not allow their creation.
Online Auctions
Do not use our trademarks in relation to products that are not owned by or originate from Games Workshop (see Making Terrain above).
Do not associate our products or IP with any third party products or IP.
We would encourage you to use digital photographs of any materials that you are planning on selling. Do not use any materials from any GW website to sell the product.
Café Press
We cannot allow users to make and or sell derivatives of our copyright protected material or our trademarks on the café press or any similar websites.
Web Comics
We would probably not take issue with anyone creating a web comic based upon our intellectual property - but as with forums, keep in mind that the hobby is for people of all ages. Please be careful of the language used and the topics discussed. We would strongly recommend that you avoid any topics concerning illegal behavior, obscenity, or libel.
Fonts
Unfortunately, GW cannot allow third parties to use our trademarks without properly crediting our ownership, lest they be damaged. With fonts, it is difficult, if not impossible, to use the marks and credit Games Workshop as rightful owners. Accordingly, do not use our IP in relation to fonts.
Screen Savers
As is the case with fonts, GW cannot allow third parties to use our trademarks without properly crediting our ownership, lest they be damaged. You may only create screen savers if it properly credits our IP. We would also remind you that you cannot alter or change our trademarks in any way.
Animations
We would probably not have a problem with anyone creating animations based upon our intellectual property - as long as there is no commercial connection to that creation. Again, please be careful of the language used and the topics discussed.
Club Names and Trademarks
We actively encourage hobbyists to begin their own clubs connected with the hobby. In fact, in most territories, we have an employee tasked with helping people set up and run their clubs. However, we would advise anyone with a club or starting a club to avoid directly using our trademarks (do not, for example call the club, "The Warhammer Club"). Instead, create your own names, such as "The Hellfire Hunters," "Da Narsty Boarz," or other, far more creative names than these pathetic examples.
Fanzines
Fanzines are a great way to immerse yourself in the hobby. However, if you are thinking about starting a fanzine, please do not use our trademarks. Again, we would remind you that the main principles set out at the head of this page apply to fanzines, as they do to all of the specific examples herein. Importantly, if you are creating a solely GW-focused fanzine, do not sell your fanzine and do not obtain any sponsorship.
Out-of-Print Material
Please do not scan, copy, or republish any out-of-print (OOP) materials. It may be that in the future we reuse or license out the use of this material.
Out of Production Games
We frequently get requests from the older hobbyists out there to make computer versions of our old games - some of you out there will remember games like Blockmania, Chainsaw Warrior and indeed Talisman from many years ago, and a lot of those that do remember them very fondly indeed. There are three good reasons why we cannot allow this - one of which is simply that it will necessarily make use of our copyright in ways that are not permitted anywhere else in this document. Secondly, providing a system for playing the game on the internet effectively means that you could play the game without having ever bought it originally, which therefore devalues Games Workshop products as outlined above. Finally, as with Talisman, it may be that we decide to revisit some of these games at some time in the future to create a better, updated version for all.
E-mail Lists
Placing scans or copies of any Games Workshop material on an e-mail list or news group is a violation of our rights and amounts to a serious infringement. Please do not participate in this activity, and if you are aware of it, please write to the legal department on the following email address: Legal@games-workshop.co.uk
Thank you very much for your compliance with the above policies. We know that there is a lot here and appreciate that you have taken the time to read it all.
Italics are for emphasis! Yay!
Based on the haphazard tone of this letter, One could take this to mean, "You can't play our game." Which I find pretty funny, seeing that the history of GW is based well into building the company up from a Dungeons and Dragons reprint factory which engaged in the very same practices that they are so keen to come down hard on to so called "Fans".
Hey, in case you don't know it, letters of this kind are white noise to the real situation of the facts at hand. That letter is written with the tone of speaking to cousin It, or your wierd uncle that makes you creeped out. And even though it looks like it, It's not a legal letter or contract, and just because you send something like that out doesn't mean whay YOU think it means.
Scare tactics, nothing else.
Look at these so called examples-
" Online Auctions
Do not use our trademarks in relation to products that are not owned by or originate from Games Workshop (see Making Terrain above).
Do not associate our products or IP with any third party products or IP." (Fee bay, Barter town, or even the Warstore anyone?
So does that go for all of the countless table terraign companies out there, what about other game companies that are 28-32mm, seeing as they are wargames, doesn't that mean that Games is in it, so its against the IP?
Unreleased Material
While we know that it is always cool to see new material before it arrives on the shelves, we would ask you not to publish, or link to other sites that publish, any material that has not been officially reported or released by Games Workshop. This does not apply to small pieces of conjecture written in your "rumors" section (unless of course said "rumors" are akin to publishing unreleased material)."- So, who exactly again was the one who showed the picture of the Dark Angel fortress sprue? How about those pictures that you took when you went to Gencon, Adepticon, or Rogue trader tournaments... You better watch out! You better not pout!
I could keep going on and on, but to me, as a so called"FAN", if you sent me something like this, I'd fold it up, make a paper plane out of it, throw it back at you and go hire myself a trademark attorney to defend myself for harrassing me. Then I'd counter sue for mental stress.
Theres a little tidbit for asshats that send this sort of thing too, its called Those materials are fair market items. They are unbuilt models, incomplete product, and in short Hobby Items. IP doesn't mean gak when I'm getting incomplete product. Hell, when I paint those guys, they don't look like they do on the package! Thats false advertising, if you want to go by GW's letter here.
I submit it once again that they are going to do this to the wrong one and end up settling it out of court for a serious amount that will put a dent into thier legal funds. Then we can watch as there be a few more price increases to make up for the lession.
The bottom line issue is that GW is beginning to make it a habit of being heavy handed, while at the same time trying to make themselves into victims with postualtions such as your wall of noise here.
" Make any direct copies and/or scans of Games Workshop publications, images, or other materials. This includes any Out-o- Production materials, web site materials, and White Dwarf articles. We would however suggest that you produce your own materials (as long as you follow the other requirements of this policy)."- IE talk about on Dakka exactly how much this much White Dwarf Sucks, or how lame Gavin the Noob, or Jervis's opinion was.
So can we expect C and D letters for discussing rules, articles, and models? WTF!!! Universities arn't even this stringent.
At issue here is exactly WHERE this sort of attention stops at? Whats going to happen when someone arbitrarily decides that you can't play a game with minis painted with any other paint the GW?
Whats going to stop them from outright telling you that conversions are direct violations of thier IP?
What is going to stop them from telling you that you can't use anything other then GW hobby materials to work on the materials?
The very fact that we are even having this discussion over a GAMING COMPANY begs the question, doesn't it?
Free speech, but watch what you say, I guess.
This company cannot even write a decent magazine article. Do you actually think they can do something to actulally, um...I don't know... promote thier hobby?
What have they done lately that has been positive , or what by this action gives players a positive effect on their gaming?
Its a slip from the cup to a lip.
I want an example of how these fan sites were making money off of the material, and I want an example of how they were even effecting GW in anyway other then the already free material that was already available from the site.
Heavy Handed tactics don't work. Especially when they are done in public.
I see where there is already a couple of other threads about this same issue, and how people are still clinging to the "GW HAS to protect thier IP... line.
. YES!!! WE AGREE WITH THAT!!! That isn't the point. The point of the issue is that this company that runs around with rules such as "Well, if you can't agree on the rule to D6 off for it" or at every codex that comes down the pipe effectivly rewrites the rulebook should do a little better job of policing themselves then to go after fansites from some highschoolers, or fans of the game. Nevermind that they have effectivly written themselves off and outright told the fan base to continue to play the games and if they so wanted to make up thier own fun things to do with them. ( Specialist games, anyone?)
I read through that letter. You can pretty much take that and shove it for all I care.
Reading through that stuff, they even make the argument that you can't even sell thier stuff second hand. You actually think thats going to happen?
Pfft, who wants to buy some dark eldar, only dropped once?
jabbakahut wrote:
Anung Un Rama wrote:I'm going to write a review about the blood bowl game for a website I work for. I was planning on showing a pic or three of my painted BB minis on the board. Is that legal?
And I guess technically my avatar violates thier IP as well. I'll go ahead and create a signature which credits them once I get my C&D.
You get a few minutes before they send the kill team through your door.
BUT.... It does beg the question on how far they think they can go with thier stance.
I agree on the not making money off of thier IP, thats not the friggn argument. The argument is over petty legalese over pittence and pie.
Your avatar? Me painting a space marine pink? Discussions over weaksauce rules sets? General forum discussions? Warseer, Dakka Dakka?
Bah. It double posted, even though I only hit submit once :(
Automatically Appended Next Post: Crap. And it ate the actual post as the double. Fantastic.
Screw it, not typing that again.
Brief summation:
You're apparently quite an Angry Annie, Grot. You better reread the actual listings that GW has, rather than just assuming it's all intended to be fascism.
Things like the "do not associate our products with third party products" do not mean that webstores cannot sell them, or you can't resell an old army on ebay/bartertown.
It means you cannot have a non-GW product for sale, while calling it a GW product title(ex: terrain, to use yours. You cannot have a 40k Eldar Warpgate. You can have an "Archaic portal".) Look at Chapterhouse's stuff for an example, his is pretty bulletproof so far.
The "unreleased material" and the "publications" issues:
It does NOT mean that you cannot have discussions on unreleased material, or home brewed rules sets.
It DOES mean that you cannot have complete PDFs of their Army Books, White Dwarf articles, or copy/paste their painting articles from the website. It also means that you cannot link to torrents of PDFs of their army books, or rules sets, or any number of things that you would normally have to purchase.
At least half the "Legal Whatever" above is smoke and mirrors. It has the same legal strength than a wet paper towel. Some examples of clauses that are mere requests on GW part worded in a way that could be taken as having a legal backing that they don´t.
SPECIFIC EXAMPLES
In addition to the above rules, we have additional rules for specific uses of our IP. The following is a definitive list of activities and uses that Games Workshop will usually not take active steps to prevent. If your proposed use is not on the list, it is highly likely that we will not permit it. This list may change from time to time so please check it regularly.
(Bold text is mine, they will usually not take active steps because in some they can´t)
1st. GW can´t say what I can or cannot do with my minis, I can model them GWs style, I can mix 3rd party pieces or I can sculpt little gs dongs for every IG I own. It will be in poor taste and GW (or any other guys ofc) CAN forbid me to enter any event they sponsor but to say that I cannot model my toy soldiers any way I want goes against the basic property laws that most countries have.
2nd. Rumors and non released stuff (this one will be trickier because varies wildly between countries) If my stupid GW´s designer friend allows me to see and take a picture of the coming Codex Naked Chicks, Amazon terminators page, two things will happen my friend probably will lose his job and if I post this info online GW will have a very hard job to shut me down because of something you US guys love very much, Free Speech, I don´t have a NDA with GW so they can try going to a judge and the judge probably (again I point that this will change between countries) will say that to take my web site down is akin to censoring because I´m publishing something that to the fan community is news, that´s what newspapers do all the time with even more important things that a picture of a game rule.
3rd. Alter our trademarks in any way Another half truth, in the US there is already some rulings (posted in another thread about a guy against a health club franchise) that say that in some cases you can, in the case I mentioned the guy used the franchise logo with a photoshoped SUCKS on top on his webpage to complain about poor service so a similar situation would be kosher.
4th. Forums Again a request that is thrown in to the mix just in case somebody falls for it. No, GW cannot say what I can write on a forum that is not their property. If Dakka´s mods allow me to say terminators every 5 words on account of me being Frazz´s long lost father there is nothing GW can do about it. Nor can they block me from trying to make a connection between the Republican party and the Ultramarines, the only ones that can are the owners of this forum.
As other posters already said:
-GW has the duty and the right to protect their IP
-No, GW cannot protect their IP anyway they want, GW must follow the pertinent IP laws.
-Most of the C&D letters appear to have a solid foundation on their request but some of them are at the very least borderline and rely on intimidation rather than the law.
-This one is mere speculation on my part but it appears that GW legal is trying to use UK´s IP laws as far as they can and as above hoping that people will fold and not take them to court where GW has more than a fair chance to lose the suit.
GW Legal wrote:Movies The video games that our licensing partners have created have done an incredible job of bringing the Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 games to life, and we appreciate that hobbyists may even want to make movies based upon our intellectual property. Unfortunately, due to the nuances of the law in some territories, we cannot allow any unlicensed movies to be created which are based upon our intellectual property.
Here is what I don't get. Ignoring the fiasco which was Damanatus-I don't think they have any right to say what fan film I decide to make or not. Star Wars is a franchise which is worth 100X what GW is, and Lucas is super tight on his IP-yet there are hundreds of Fan flicks made without C&D or threat of legal action like with Damanatus.
OT but still an aside; I was looking at those old Epic forums on the internet archives (where Jervis talks about Squats). I wasn't active in the online community for wargaming at that time, was there ever an official 40K forum run by GW? If so does anyone know where I can find the remains?
Also, how come forums suchs as 40konline and 40kforums haven't been targeted yet? Or have they?
jabbakahut wrote: Star Wars is a franchise which is worth 100X what GW is, and Lucas is super tight on his IP-yet there are hundreds of Fan flicks made without C&D or threat of legal action like with Damanatus.
The difference there would be that Lucas (or at least his genre-spanning business empire) actually encourages fan films.
OT but still an aside; I was looking at those old Epic forums on the internet archives (where Jervis talks about Squats). I wasn't active in the online community for wargaming at that time, was there ever an official 40K forum run by GW? If so does anyone know where I can find the remains?
They originally ran their own forums which covered all of their games. Specialist slintered off after a while and built their own forums for each of the specilist games, and then GW decided that they didn't want to run their own forums anymore and shut the main forums down.
Unless you can find snippets in the Internet Archive, I doubt you'll find anything much of them still on the web.
Also, how come forums suchs as 40konline and 40kforums haven't been targeted yet? Or have they?
Possibly just because GW are currently targeting BB sites and sites containing OOP game information, rather than 40K sites.
Personally, I don't see a huge problem with most of GW's IP requirements, either ethically or legally, and I'm a little surprised that so many people set up GW-oriented websites without checking & ensuring they'd adhered to the relevant legal requirements.
I don't think it's unreasonable for GW to ask that (for example) you link to their FAQ document, or their free rulebook, on their website, rather than re-hosting the same info on your own website.
I do think they've drunk too much fungus ale if they really think they have any right to tell me off or sue me if I take photos of toy soldiers I own, and put them on a website. I think that any law court would probably tell them the same thing, if in a somewhat more complicated and expensive way.
This has been brought up a couple of times in this thread, and while it may be psychically satisfying to accuse GW of hipocrosy, there are three problems with that line of reasoning:
1) Courts don't overly care who's been naughty or nice in other areas. Each legal matter is a fairly self contained set of circumstances. It doesn't matter how many times you trespass on your neighbors yard, you can still sue him he trespasses on yours.
2) Copyrights, esp. for visual media, are far looser than trademarks.
3) The holders of the copyrights to the IP in question are free to file a claim against GW. They won't, because they'd lose, but they still could.
It's GW's right to protect their IP, but GW is rather extreme about it in the case of Boardgame Geek.
I agree with most posters here and BGG that it's an overzealous action bordering on a "F You, loyal Fan! ...(sucker)..."
I understand their need to protect the IP, but the blanket C&D is counterproductive, as especially BGG is a great gate-way site for would-be gamers, and GW receives a lot of negative publicity there. Recently that community has been slightly possitive about GW (for Space Hulk and the old stuff), now there is an uproar of discontent of people who have put a lot of time in helping GW for free. I'm afraid GW looked at it purely from a legal point of view, which is important of course, but the social pov, or even from the view point of innovation and being a Niche Market company has been disregarded. And for a company in GW's niche that's just stupid. They live too much in their own little world to see that their competitors flourish on the internet and some solely exist online and gaming tables, not in store buildings. GW can have both, and it would be good for them, but no, GW legel wants to destroy it in a frenzied panic of misguided motivations.
GW was more wealthy when it allowed the fansites and it's resources. Nowadays the fansites would fill the void GW themselves created by changing their website into just an online store with a limited number of hobby tips. The old site was much, much better, and I wouldn't be bothered to write this if that style was kept (i.e. retaining extensive background, variant rules like skirmish and combat patrol, scenarios, THE BLACK GOBBO etc.).
If GW can provide us with the stuff and support we need, if GW offers it's audience a platform to share it's ideas, fansites must be very special or are redundant. GW doesn't do that, so fansites slightly/barely infringe on their IP by creating themselves what GW doesn't make for them. GW forces a DIY ethic on their customers who want more than just pretty pictures, something they have supported in the past but are now regarding as, to speak in 40k terms, "Rogue Trading"
Maybe it's an "oh crap!" action of GW... realising their storefront-website has nothing to offer other than models and painting/modelling guides, fans who seek other content (scenario's, the boardgames, variant rules etc) go elsewhere, hence they don't see the online shop and maybe buy less models because of that? Is that what they are thinking? do they have braincells? Or are they linked up into a golden throne and being fed by the lunch money of high school kids?
I'm no advocate of a boycot of playing the games (buying... maybe), they're fun and the Game designers have no say in this. I'd rather advocate preseverence; Keep making those fansites, have three new necromunda sites go online for each one C&D'ed! Make it a quagmire for GW-legal, an endless endeavour, eventually, GW will cease and desist... i hope.
why?
Because there is a reason we bought and buy their stuff: We like it! we want to keep liking it and we want GW to be worth us liking their IP! So keep blogging, posting, errataing etc. and at some point, GW will realise we do that out of love for their IP, to bring those ideas and stories to people who haven't heard of it yet, or used to know it and forgot it, and of course all the girls and guys who are still totally into GW's product.
Once again:
He had PDF files of rules(outdated or out of production does not mean it becomes public domain), along with reprinting their current rules/artwork
He violated their IP requests listed in black and white on the website.
Kanluwen wrote:Once again:
He had PDF files of rules(outdated or out of production does not mean it becomes public domain), along with reprinting their current rules/artwork
He violated their IP requests listed in black and white on the website.
The IP requests are mostly just that, requests. People can safely ignore those and simply follow the letter of the law. But there really aren't any "good guys" here. We have GW on one side, and pirates, fools and/or thieves on the other.
Honestly, the biggest issue I have with these self-righteous folk who assume that GW's doing it alongside of their nightly kitten sacrifice to the Dark Powers seem to be under the impression that just because it's the Little Guy telling their side of the story, well it MUST be right!
Read the OP again, pruge because of: A, B, and C
Ive never refuted that GW should not defend its IP, its how them dag nabbit sons of a goats go about it that has me up in arms.
yes i would prefer that they do it nicely and work with people,
(THEIR OWN FRECKEN FANS FOR FREACKN SAKES) rather than slaming 50 some odd C&D's in the mail.
If someone has broken the law, ie copy right law, then GW has every right to take steps, they have the right at any time to take steps with IP, copy right. etc. but why do they always take the steps that peeves off a good portion of the fans.
I mean come on.... were their fans.... why do they wanny do us dirty?!?! Work with the fan base, it aint hard.
I Just Cant feel the GW love anymore.
So call me self rightous, i dont mind. cause i know it just aint kittens thats gettin the knife.
The people who were posting rules, even their own homemade stuff(which also featured GW's printed rules) were infringing on GW's copyright.
That's called "illegal". That's when GW could do more than a simple C&D.
It doesn't matter how friendly GW makes it, they don't want PDFs of their rules or scans/copies of their artwork floating around. Float around too much or if even one minute claim isn't acted upon--they CAN lose their IP.
Look at George Romero's "Night of the Living Dead". Because of forgetting to put a copyright notice on the first few frames, it's public domain. That means I could go, take the original Night of the Living Dead and reedit it to be nothing but the "They're coming to get you Barbara!" scene for five hours...and there's nothing they could do about it, unless I mistakenly use a version that actually has the appropriate crediting. That's why you see all these different versions and remakes of it. Hell, Romero never even really saw payment from it until (I think) the late 80s.
Correct. But if it's just some guy posting from his mom's basement, he'd go broke with legal fees/travel expenses since GWUK filing the suit would mean he'd have to show up in a British court.
Hawkins wrote:If someone has broken the law, ie copy right law, then GW has every right to take steps, they have the right at any time to take steps with IP, copy right. etc. but why do they always take the steps that peeves off a good portion of the fans.
Exactly. It is uncalled for.
I've spoken to my brother about all this (my brother who currently works as a lawyer in Chicago) He says that 90% of the time, C&D letters are nothing but lawyers wanting to intimidate people into doing something that they have no legal obligation to do. In other words, more often than not they are just hot air. Empty threats distributed for the sole purpose of manipulation. It was my brothers professional, legal advice to ALWAYS ignore C&Ds as they are meaningless until somebody actually spends the money to file a law suit. GW would have to be 100% positive that they are completely justified in what they're doing in order to take legal action against everybody. Cause otherwise that many law suits would get expensive REALLY fast... I honestly believe that if people were to ignore these C&Ds, the worst GW would do is keep sending them, which costs them money...
They took steps. It's done. It peeved the gits who do nothing but believe the little guy and assume that GW's being a kittenstomping monster, rather than actually read what the little guy had posted.
The guy admitted that he had posted PDFs of the rules, rules summaries and other copywritten/outdated material. Sounds pretty illegal to me.
Kanluwen wrote:Correct. But if it's just some guy posting from his mom's basement, he'd go broke with legal fees/travel expenses since GWUK filing the suit would mean he'd have to show up in a British court.
Not to mention that it'd take quite a bit of money on GW's part 1-10 million (USD) per lawsuit. It's not worth the trouble as long as they're following the C&D.
The people who were posting rules, even their own homemade stuff(which also featured GW's printed rules) were infringing on GW's copyright.
That's called "illegal". That's when GW could do more than a simple C&D.
It doesn't matter how friendly GW makes it, they don't want PDFs of their rules or scans/copies of their artwork floating around. Float around too much or if even one minute claim isn't acted upon--they CAN lose their IP.
Look at George Romero's "Night of the Living Dead". Because of forgetting to put a copyright notice on the first few frames, it's public domain. That means I could go, take the original Night of the Living Dead and reedit it to be nothing but the "They're coming to get you Barbara!" scene for five hours...and there's nothing they could do about it, unless I mistakenly use a version that actually has the appropriate crediting. That's why you see all these different versions and remakes of it. Hell, Romero never even really saw payment from it until (I think) the late 80s.
Actually i think were both not getting it, were tryin to argue the same thing to each other, your saying: The people who were posting rules, even their own homemade stuff(which also featured GW's printed rules) were infringing on GW's copyright. im saying: If someone has broken the law, ie copy right law, then GW has every right to take steps, they have the right at any time to take steps with IP, copy right.
where were disagreeing is in the fact that i want a nice happy thoughfull loving and above all cuddly carnifax GW, where you just dont care so long as they protect their IP. our points are moot, were argueing over one another. the only point of contention we really have is i want the arschgigers at GW to be nice and fan friendly and im willing to boycott the GW to make my point. and you want?.... what?
Oh and 'Git' is uncalled for. keep it civil please.
The people who were posting rules, even their own homemade stuff(which also featured GW's printed rules) were infringing on GW's copyright.
That's called "illegal". That's when GW could do more than a simple C&D.
You'll recieve no argument from me for publishing other people's material. But instead of concentrating on that clear example lets look at the something a bit less straightforward - not everyone who has received a C&D has so obviously infringed IP. They've gone for several Bloodbowl sites online for "threatening their IP" even though they've not addressed this threat for 10 years in some cases. Librarian Online had to remove their eagle because it looked a bit like GWs, apparently Ultraforge have had to remove models from sale because they resemble some of GWs stuff and apparently even Hasslefree have had a letter making a fuss. I mean that's not copying models and reproduction, it's GW getting a bee in their bonnet about other people doing stuff looking like theirs and making a stink even if their stuff is generic enough that they probably couldn't make it stick in court. They're just using their weight to get their way.
Kanluwen wrote:... he'd go broke with legal fees/travel expenses since GWUK filing the suit would mean he'd have to show up in a British court.
Except Civil cases aren't normally enforced internationally, and the changes of GW successfully having BasementGuy extradited for criminal proceedings is negligible.
Which makes me confident in saying to any member of GW legal that I invite them to start the shenannigans about my tattoo. Commissioned art performed, stored, and housed within the US border would make one heck of a case that the US laws apply. Arguably rules hosted and posted in the US would be subject to US law. The discovery process in determining the jurisdiction of the case should be prohibitively expensive.
I'm still stunned we've seen so few "see you in court" responses.
the only point of contention we really have is i want the arschgigers at GW to be nice and fan friendly and im willing to boycott the GW to make my point.
The people who were posting rules, even their own homemade stuff(which also featured GW's printed rules) were infringing on GW's copyright.
That's called "illegal". That's when GW could do more than a simple C&D.
You'll recieve no argument from me for publishing other people's material. But instead of concentrating on that clear example lets look at the something a bit less straightforward - not everyone who has received a C&D has so obviously infringed IP. They've gone for several Bloodbowl sites online for "threatening their IP" even though they've not addressed this threat for 10 years in some cases. Librarian Online had to remove their eagle because it looked a bit like GWs, apparently Ultraforge have had to remove models from sale because they resemble some of GWs stuff and apparently even Hasslefree have had a letter making a fuss. I mean that's not copying models and reproduction, it's GW getting a bee in their bonnet about other people doing stuff looking like theirs and making a stink even if their stuff is generic enough that they probably couldn't make it stick in court. They're just using their weight to get their way.
agreed.
i didnt know hasslefree got hit too. wheres that coming from? linky?
As far as I understand it, the BGG purge has been all-encompassing. Any file in a BGG entry of a GW product has been removed. The majority of these files were not pdfs or scans of the rules- or sourcebooks but player aids (like the play sheets GW used to give away for free themselves), variant rules and other things that would have no ill effect on the sales of rulessets and miniatures, but would rather encourage their purchase. In addition, GW has always been a company living on "word of mouth". Do they fail to see the internet is the new and ideal tool for that? Have they any idea how much their own site is lacking in that area and how no one site can accomplish what 6+ of them can?
I wouldn't undervalue BGG's value in promoting games (for free). This is seriously bad PR for GW. A lot of the removed stuff was a rather grey area considering IP, and parts of GW's policy on copyright and trademarks is BS. They live in their own little world.
In this case, it would have been more apropriate and better from a PR standpoint to be more discriminate with the C&D request, i.e. "remove all full rules descriptions"... which I find odd when it comes to the specialist games with their free (open gaming? fair use?) rulebooks and supplements+user created material. BGG was a nice place to prevent that bandwith theft issue.
No, I believe a nice "Thank you very much Board Game Geek, keep up the good work" letter would be in place!
There is no other big gaming company with entries and user-made content on BGG who has taken similar action to protect its IP, most of GW's rivals encourage it within broader limits. There are even companies who incorporate fan-stuff into their official line with credit where it's due!
And to finish... type in "Warhammer pdf" in google and you'll have all codexes, army books and rulebooks you want as torrents... That's what GW's lawyers should be dealing with instead of alienating and threatening the people who spend a lot of their free time to help them sell miniatures and games and keep their old games alive and kicking. If it hadn't been for BGG, Space Hulk and Blood Bowl would have been restricted to the normal GW audience, especially Space Hulk 3d ed. introduced a lot of people to the 40k universe, but not many of them will go beyond Space Hulk because of the C&D.
But GW lives in it's own little world where plastic is the new metal and internet is still something from a science fiction movie that has not even been filmed yet.
the only point of contention we really have is i want the arschgigers at GW to be nice and fan friendly and im willing to boycott the GW to make my point.
Wait. Cursing in German in allowed here?
Scheiße!
it is if you spell it wrong, and its not directed at a person on the forum more importantly.
The people who were posting rules, even their own homemade stuff(which also featured GW's printed rules) were infringing on GW's copyright.
That's called "illegal". That's when GW could do more than a simple C&D.
You'll recieve no argument from me for publishing other people's material. But instead of concentrating on that clear example lets look at the something a bit less straightforward - not everyone who has received a C&D has so obviously infringed IP. They've gone for several Bloodbowl sites online for "threatening their IP" even though they've not addressed this threat for 10 years in some cases. Librarian Online had to remove their eagle because it looked a bit like GWs, apparently Ultraforge have had to remove models from sale because they resemble some of GWs stuff and apparently even Hasslefree have had a letter making a fuss. I mean that's not copying models and reproduction, it's GW getting a bee in their bonnet about other people doing stuff looking like theirs and making a stink even if their stuff is generic enough that they probably couldn't make it stick in court. They're just using their weight to get their way.
They actually addressed the point about the timeframe in the posted guidelines they want you to follow:
They're fine letting sleeping dogs lie provided you're not posting actual rules. But if you're using titles like "The Blood Bowl Headquarters" or "Your Source For All Things Blood Bowly"--expect them to get annoyed, since that 'right' is reserved for them and anyone who pays to license out the material from them.
From what I saw of some of those Blood Bowl sites, they had tags like that...rather than "Your Unofficial Bloodbowl Headquarters" or "Your Unofficial Source for Blood Bowling Goodery".
Librarian Online's eagle was EXACTLY like GW's. If the LO had done it in the style of the Romans or Czars(ex: a solid outline, with the details filled in using sketching/art)...I don't think GW had a problem. But when they broke the wings up and ended up with that very distinctive cutout silhouette...that's when GW got annoyed.
I can't really comment on Ultraforge, but if I remember right the model in question had some very Nurgle iconography on it(the triple buboes icon and the stylized fly icon, from what I recall of the WIP). Hasslefree is one of those companies that flies real close to the sun, from what I've seen. I'd have to know exactly what models they're having issues with, etc.
And yeah. They're using their weight to get their way. Y'know. The whole legal system has an issue with copyright infringement. Go figure.
And as for it being tried in civil court...
Copyright infringement isn't a matter for civil court once you start profiting from it, either through donations, ad support, or flatout selling models. That'd probably be a criminal case. I'd have to look up the exacts of the matter under British and International Copyright Law.
BrookM wrote:I never root for the little guy because in the real world (tm) they never get the girl or win the day.
mourn for my love life then...
And mine....
*looks down* right little guy?!
[size=9](sorry it was there i had to take the shot.... im so week)[/size]
Back to topic:
Kanluwen : your saying the same thing over and over, again and again. We understand your point. People in the next forum can hear you.
For the love of god why are you argueing? Your not convincing anyone of anything here, most have acknolaged your IP issue. its not even a point anymore.
Yes ok, people did things iligally, C&D letter went out. and as well they should have. but not everyone here thinks ALL the C&Ds were called for.
What is it actually that you want? and why do you have such a problem with us boycotting GW over its actions against those that some of us feel were unjustly targeted?? (appologies to those that are not).
your acusing people of just not getting it, but man if we havent got what your saying yet, we aint never gonna get it or just plain aint intrested.
the only thing left to say is about Hassle free. your dead wrong there, inform yourself by taking a walk thru the website.
BrookM wrote:I never root for the little guy because in the real world (tm) they never get the girl or win the day.
mourn for my love life then...
And mine....
*looks down* right little guy?!
[size=9](sorry it was there i had to take the shot.... im so week)[/size]
Back to topic:
Kanluwen : your saying the same thing over and over, again and again. We understand your point. People in the next forum can hear you.
For the love of god why are you argueing? Your not convincing anyone of anything here, most have acknolaged your IP issue. its not even a point anymore.
Yes ok, people did things iligally, C&D letter went out. and as well they should have. but not everyone here thinks ALL the C&Ds were called for.
What is it actually that you want? and why do you have such a problem with us boycotting GW over its actions against those that some of us feel were unjustly targeted?? (appologies to those that are not).
your acusing people of just not getting it, but man if we havent got what your saying yet, we aint never gonna get it or just plain aint intrested.
the only thing left to say is about Hassle free. your dead wrong there, inform yourself by taking a walk thru the website.
You are absolutely right.
Yes ok, people did things iligally, C&D letter went out. and as well they should have. but not everyone here thinks ALL the C&Ds were called for.
They shouldn't tell you to knock it off if you're posting things illegally. Obviously, that's immoral!
Think through your statement again and then get back to me.
There's NO problem whatsoever with boycotting GW over its actions. Just stop assuming that it's only GW at fault here. I don't see anyone boycotting BGG for hosting illegal material.
In fact, I think I'll do that. Screw you BGG! You're not getting my intarwebz!
And wow. I forgot what a ripoff factory Hasslefree is.
Eve, Dionne, Bubba Ho-Tep knockoff, Sin City knockoffs, Hot Fuzz knockoffs, the Aliens knockoffs(with your choice of pulse rifle OR G36C, for less copyright infringement!) and Shaun of the Dead knockoffs.
Yes ok, people did things iligally, C&D letter went out. and as well they should have. but not everyone here thinks ALL the C&Ds were called for.
They shouldn't tell you to knock it off if you're posting things illegally. Obviously, that's immoral!
-Who said that?, its 2 seperate sentances. Look before you accuse, i was agreeing with ya in the first part. . open your eyes. its the second part thats on a intirely different tract. one you totaly still fail to grasp. but thats ok you dont need to anymore.
next: boycott? if ya want to, go hard.
As for HF: sure, everything you mentioned. but where in 7 hells is the GW infringement we were talking about?
Any thing else you wana get off your chest?
ok ive stayed up long enough on this. im goin to bed. 5 comes early.
Kanluwen wrote:And wow. I forgot what a ripoff factory Hasslefree is.
Eve, Dionne, Bubba Ho-Tep knockoff, Sin City knockoffs, Hot Fuzz knockoffs, the Aliens knockoffs(with your choice of pulse rifle OR G36C, for less copyright infringement!) and Shaun of the Dead knockoffs.
And yet none of them have an issue with little companies doing spoofs of their stuff, they specifically avoid using copyright names. Lots of miniatures companies do this unmolested such as Heresy.
So I assume that GW aren't taking HF to task for other people's IPs, so what of their stuff violates GW IP? I'm fairly familiar with HF's output and similarities to GW's stuff is tenuous at best, unless they are going to take on everyone who produces fantasy miniatures.
I think the issue with Hasslefree is that it wouldn't really register on alot of the companies that they're ripping off's radar.
I don't really see James Cameron having a goon squad patrolling the Intarwebz looking for a Colonial Marine knockoff, do you?
And as for Hawkins...
Eurgh. The depths of your ignorance astonishes me.
The C&Ds were blanket C&Ds sent to ANYONE who had GW material posted, copyright protected names/imagery, or was engaging in bandwidth theft(that includes direct linking their images by the way. Rehost it if you want, credit it properly at the same time).
Kanluwen wrote:
They shouldn't tell you to knock it off if you're posting things illegally. Obviously, that's immoral!
Think through your statement again and then get back to me.
And wow. I forgot what a ripoff factory Hasslefree is.
Eve, Dionne, Bubba Ho-Tep knockoff, Sin City knockoffs, Hot Fuzz knockoffs, the Aliens knockoffs(with your choice of pulse rifle OR G36C, for less copyright infringement!) and Shaun of the Dead knockoffs.
Well then, lets hope noone knocks off MMs Eternal Champion, Dune, Aliens, JRR Tolkien, The lost world, Terminator... oh wait now! Did you ever read the names they used to give the figures back in the day, when each imperial guardsman or space pirate or chaos thug got his or her own name? Troopers Laurel and Hardy for example?
Seriously, are you getting paid by uncle jervis to spam this thread?
Again..and AGAIN...
IT IS NOT ARGUED THAT GW HAVE THE LEGAL RIGHT TO PROTECT THEIR COPYRIGHT, IT IS CALLED INTO QUESTION THAT THEY ARE TAKING A HEAVY HANDED AND AGGRESSIVE STANCE THAT COULD HAVE BEEN EASILY REPLACED WITH A MORE DIPLOMATIC LINE OF COMMUNICATION THAT WOULD NOT HAVE RESULTED IN THE GAKSTORM THEY STIRRED UP.
You have argued for the absolute rights of GW in respect of copyright and trademark and IP. We don't care about that, we care about how they did it. How they attacked their own fanbase and online community and are still attacking it.
Kanluwen wrote:
They shouldn't tell you to knock it off if you're posting things illegally. Obviously, that's immoral!
Think through your statement again and then get back to me.
And wow. I forgot what a ripoff factory Hasslefree is.
Eve, Dionne, Bubba Ho-Tep knockoff, Sin City knockoffs, Hot Fuzz knockoffs, the Aliens knockoffs(with your choice of pulse rifle OR G36C, for less copyright infringement!) and Shaun of the Dead knockoffs.
Well then, lets hope noone knocks off MMs Eternal Champion, Dune, Aliens, JRR Tolkien, The lost world, Terminator... oh wait now! Did you ever read the names they used to give the figures back in the day, when each imperial guardsman or space pirate or chaos thug got his or her own name? Troopers Laurel and Hardy for example?
Seriously, are you getting paid by uncle jervis to spam this thread?
Again..and AGAIN...
IT IS NOT ARGUED THAT GW HAVE THE LEGAL RIGHT TO PROTECT THEIR COPYRIGHT, IT IS CALLED INTO QUESTION THAT THEY ARE TAKING A HEAVY HANDED AND AGGRESSIVE STANCE THAT COULD HAVE BEEN EASILY REPLACED WITH A MORE DIPLOMATIC LINE OF COMMUNICATION THAT WOULD NOT HAVE RESULTED IN THE GAKSTORM THEY STIRRED UP.
You have argued for the absolute rights of GW in respect of copyright and trademark and IP. We don't care about that, we care about how they did it. How they attacked their own fanbase and online community and are still attacking it.
Let's go through the list:
Eternal Champion? Licensed to GW, for quite awhile actually. A parody/homage isn't the same as infringement.
JRR Tolkien? Same deal, even back in the day.
Dune, Aliens, The Lost World and Terminator fall under the parody/homage bit also. Maybe back in the 80s when GW was getting off the ground you'd have a case for arguing that, but the background has evolved since.
And you're absolutely right, that ONCE AGAIN, back in that timeframe of the 80s/early 90s.
GW did exactly what Hasslefree is doing now.
And man, if I was getting paid to "spam", as you put it MGS--you can bet your life I wouldn't be actually explaining my position/reasoning.
I'd just be posting tripe like yourself.
And what kind of communication do you want?
The "polite and respectful way" is sitting at the bottom of their site, under the "Legal" link. You start a website and don't follow their instructions?
Kanluwen wrote:. I don't see anyone boycotting BGG for hosting illegal material.
Maybe that's because they have rules about copyrighted material which comes down to These rules are avidly enforced by the admins. If that hasn't been the case (could be a few OOP rules which are not even GW trademarks anymore), they could have only removed those files, rather than removing everything indiscriminately. At the moment I am unsure about GW's demands to BGG. It could be possible that the Admins were terrified and overreacted...
I will state one more time, that this Webspace Crusade is in several cases (i.e. site followed the rules of GW and copyright law to best ability) an extremely rediculous action, disastrous for PR, customer loyalty and brand image in the BGG community and the other sites and their members which received these messages.
Games Workshop is apparently in some sort of panic, and lashes out at the easy targets, those who will comply to their demands out of fear, because they lack the funds to resist these heavy handed and in many cases not quite justified threats by GW.
I understand GW wanting to protect domain names, C&D orders can do that, but there are other ways (use the internet like you're supposed to GW! register them properly)
It's perfectly within the law that they protect the IP that is their literature and original art, but in the business they are in (miniature gaming) fan generated content, derivative original material available for free and useless without Games Workshop's original product, aids the company as much as the customer. GW failed a crucial stupidity test here IMO.
Just because it's OOP does not mean it's still not GW IP. There's also a great amount of OOP games that were done under license, which GW still would be obligated to protect or be held liable.
Would the nerds raging over this been happy if GW had sent Christmas cards along with 5 pounds of chocolate and inside the card it read "Dear whoever it may concern, we really would appreciate it if you would change your site name/remove our pics/stop deep-linking to our material to steal bandwith because it annoys us. To make us seem nice and fair here is 5 pounds of the finest chocolates known to man and a holiday card. Thank you for your cooperation."
Look at it this way, if you pirate music and movies and are caught at it you don't get a C&D, you get a guy in a black suit leading a team of Feds to turn your house upside down and take your computer and anything else related to that piracy and you get to go for a ride to the courthouse in handcuffs.
)
