Just a quckie that really annoys me...

How does everybody find their local GW staffers. Some are great, no doubts, but more and more I find them far too over friendly/pushy. it's really putting me off of ever stepping foot in their shops. Below is my most recent experience;

Redshirt; Hi, what do you play etc.
Me; Eldar etc *Starts browsing*
RS; We have loads of great kits etc.
Me; I'm just looking, thanks. *returns to browsing*
2 mins later, A different RS; So, Eldar. Did you know... etc
Me; Thanks, but i'm just looking.
RS; Have you seen the new fortress of... etc.
Me; Yes, but i'm looking for Eldar thanks.
2 mins later, original RS; Just ask us if you need any help. By the way, do you mind if I keep checking back on you every five minutes or so!?!
Me; Yeah, I do, thanks! *Exit's shop*

As a thirty year old, I do not need this kind of babysitting! I have money, I will buy if i'm left to my own devices! Gah! I've seen the future and it's online...

mine plays out where i stop responding open my mouth real wide like i just fell asleep and pretend to daydream during their shopping speech...but everyonce in a while i'll ask for advice

The last time I went to a GW store all I had from the staff there was a few questions as to what I collected and if I needed any advice on what to get. I politely said no and we then just had a chat about 40k in general...

Wow they must have started hiring radioshack and hh gregg degenerates. I know if i ever set foot in any two of those stores mine end up like the OPs story. I surely hope for everyones sanity who shop at GW stores they havent gone commission based salary otherwise i dont see any hope for that going away.

See, this is a prime opportunity to simply mess with their heads.

Redshirt: Hi! We've got some really nice kits! Can I interest you in a shiny IG Valkrie? (while you're looking at Empire Cannons)

Customer: (acting like a complete gaming slow-o with the most annoying voice you can conjure convincingly) No thangsth, I like Spathe Mareenth, do you like spathe mareenth? I've got one with a lath cannon, one with a plathma gun, one with a power thord, and thome tankth. One time I wasth playing a game with my freindth and we had thome spathe mareenth fighting thome Spathe Elfsth. Then we had thith other battle......yaddayaddayaddayaddayadda.....

Eventually, during your tirade the redshirt will excuse himself to go do some "work". We all know its actually to conserve his sanity due to a social gaming reject bombarding him with stupidity in his store.

Later after you choose the Empire addition to your army that you were looking for, you make sure you get the same redshirt at checkout.

He gives you the obligatory "thanx for shopping here" that any good employee would, curt, short, and hoping you'll leave soon.

Redshirt: "I hope you found everything you needed, dont forget that Thunderwolf Cavalry is coming out next week."

You: "Thank you sir, I wouldnt be interested as I only play Fantasy. However, I do sincerely appreciate you're letting me peruse your fine establishment, good day to you."

Watch jaw drop, walk out, triumphant.

I like Deadshane1's plan

Red Shirts near my store have been improving abit when it comes to promoting stuff.

They have completely stopped asking if i want to buy the <insert random new product>

and move onto asking me when am i going to finish painting my army so i can play at the bunker.

Ohh DeadShane.. this might be a better tactic...
Enter a GW you dont regularly use, when/if the redshirt starts with the "HardSell" say wow cool, what else would I need with that? Procced to let the Redshirt stack you up with all the box sets and starter kits (picking an army that has lots and lots of blisterpacks would be particulalry annoying) and paints and glue till the checkout counter is overflowing with with stuff.. let him ring it all up and when he tells you the final price, look in your wallet (using your best acting abillity) go "OMG I left my Credit Card in the other store!" say you will be back in a bit.. and leave....
go back a week or two later.. see if there is a diffrent redshirt working.. do it agin...
Keep doing this until you are asked to not return or you get tired of it...

As a former Redshirt.. this would have cheesed me off. Having to reshelve all that stock would be a pain in the hynnie. But then agin I dont think I was one of those Ubar Hard Sell kind of guys.

I prefer Nicorex's plan.
Althought DeadShanes plan is good also

Thats a pretty sweet plan, but it would probably be MORE awesome if you just told him, flat out, that you forgot you hate the army you both just picked out, and would like to purchase a large quantity of another army... after he gets all those boxes, repeat.

I popped into my local GW to pick up some LOTR stuff for a friend. Unfortunately it was pretty quiet so I drew the attention of the staffers. The new girl reached me first, asking me the usual lead-in questions:

Her: Hello, how are you? What are you after today? Is it for you? What do you play?

Me: Nothing for me today, thanks. Just picking this up for a friend.

Her: Oh, go on - get something for yourself too.

Me: Actually, it's not payday yet, so I can't really treat myself (this usually works).

Her: Oh, OK.

.....

Her: Go on - treat yourself.

She kept this up all the way to the till. I was half-expecting her to follow me back to work.

My working theory is now this: treat a bunch of GW employees as you would a bunch of terrorists - always assume any female in the ranks is, by default, the biggest threat there.

It's basically the reason why I never go to GWS anymore. They're just so freaking annoying. At the GWS back in Calgary, there are 2 redshirts who are fine, do their job like you'd expect, while being helpful with advice when you ask. The rest are all annoying witches who can't shut their faces for five seconds to let you get what you want on your own.

No, I don't care about the fething Space Marine release. The models I've been picking off the shelf are clearly Eldar, someone with your interest should be able to extrapolate from there.

No, I don't care about how nice the space marines are. The fact that I'm at the cashier's desk with a box of Nobz and Snikrot should stand testament to the fact that I'm not looking for fething Space Marines.

I'd never buy my GKs from GW, because they'd probably think they'd have a legitamite cause to advertise those fething Space Marines. Or the Imperial Guard.

"Yea, thatth cool, but then there wasth this time I fought a carnifexth with my terminaterth...it wasth tho cool. Do you have a Land Raider? I've got a predator with Lath Cannonth, I like to shoot thingth with it. Then there wath this time......"

I went into one last week after years.

A young guy came up to me (I had earphones in) and said something. I popped one out "Excuse me?", he looked at me strangely and said "How are you?", "I'm good thanks, mate." he said no more so I popped the earphone back in. He then left me alone...cool story I know.

I have no problem about saying to someone stop pressuring me. You have to say "I'm browsing", with conviction with out being rude.

I hope all of your posts from now on are going to be in that accent, Deadshane!

Here's how I counter it.

GW Employee: 'Hey there, have you seen our latest product X?'
Me: 'You must get so bored having to say that over and over again to all the customers'.
GW Employee:'Yeah, tell em about it. I swear, I dream about saying it these days'.
Me: 'That bad huh? You got long left on your shift?'
GW Employee: 'Rest of the day unfortunately.../Only an hour or so!'
Me: *begins generic natter about anything from weather to models*

People don't usually enjoy working, if you show a bit of sympathy to them, they usually cut out all the sales claptrap to talk about themselves. Which usually takes half the time, and means you all get along a lot better, as its more like a real conversation.

Remember, they don't WANT to talk about the new stompa for hours on end, they're told to by their bosses.

Has anyone tried simple honesty?

I mean once your expended the basic "I'm just browsing" statement....if they carry on, simply tell them that you'll buy if you see something you want, and the endless harrassment will only serve to drive you out of the shop.

I got exactly the same treatment at Warhammer World months ago, and the honest approach not only worked for that single salesman, he then passed it on to the others....BINGO

As a former redshirt I hate to say that this is all part of the training they give you at GW. Their is a set of ten rules on a card you must memorize, and apply with everycustomer. Such as once they enter you have 15 seconds to personally greet them otherwise you can get in a ton of trouble. Then you basically have to become the customers friend, and "guide" them through their selection. Often you must remind them of the bits catalogue, and glue/white dwarfs, etc. .. This is all part of their sales style so saidly I agree as it is much like a used car salesmen, but supposedly it works well. If you don't do this and a secret shopper catches you it can be grounds for firing.

Never go into GW unless I am going to buy something OR take a look at a new miniature. If it's the latter, I have a quick chat about it, when it's released and so forth, before continuing on my merry way.

At the end of the day, they are paid to sell things. Paying somebody to sit on their arse and paint miniatures all day, whilst ignoring anybody who comes into the store is not good business practice.

Deadshane1 wrote:Redshirt: "I hope you found everything you needed, dont forget that Thunderwolf Cavalry is coming out next week."

You: ::jumping over counter and tearing at his Great Steak-stained collars:: YOU GIVE THEM TO ME RIGHT NOW! DO YOU HEAR ME?! RIIIIIIIGHT FFFFFETHIN NOOOOW!"

Fixed.

Frankly I prefer the redshirts over the d-bags at some unFLGS's who never look up from scrolling through emocore on their iPods. Or the d-bags at a hobby shop who can't understand why you'd want to paint little men rather than work on RC cars. Maybe I just had a good GW--it was in Auburn Hills, MI--and poor FLGS here in my part of Virginia.

Is it any wonder redshirts are the first to die in Star Trek?

Maybe we should look at it from the redshirts side:

Do you think they get tired of talking to mouth breathers?
Do you think that it is a retail location, so maybe their job is to sell?
Do you think they like to hear all the lame paint schemes and army ideas?
Do you think(god forbid) they might like their job and they are excited?
Do you they might want to talk about the hobby?

Maybe they do not know who you are and are trying to learn more about you. I have been around tons of great Readshirts and have never had any problems. There are so bad ones, but they have of thankless job that makes them talk to that wierd guy(that no one talks to) that comes into a GW or FLGS. Maybe next time you can strike up a conversion with him and tell him that you have been around the hobby for years or that you stay on top of the new releases.

Cheers

Spacemanvic wrote:Is it any wonder redshirts are the first to die in Star Trek?

LOL


GG

The blueshirts (their uniform has changed here apparently ), I get on well enough. Though, the new manager at the local store annoys the heck out of me. He's nuts for that whole sales patter thing.

And I'm really not surprised that '15 seconds' thing is an actual written rule. The first time I saw that manager, he was talking to a kid who was listening in rapt attention to him. I walked in after work and I swear, I could see the door slam in that kids face after the guy ran up to me.

But yeah, I really don't like this new manager and try to fob him off whenever possible. Today, I took a slight guilty pleasure in this.

Manager runs up to me: *salespatter* "What are you looking for?"
Me: "Just some paints." *tries to wander off*

Me to normal staffmember: "Yeah, I'd like to get that mega paint set."

- When the lids of your paint pots start crumbling off, it's a good time to get new paints.

In any case, in my experience, normal staff, cool. Managers... *shudder*

The odd exception applies.

Manchu wrote:Frankly I prefer the redshirts over the d-bags at some unFLGS's who never look up from scrolling through emocore on their iPods. Or the d-bags at a hobby shop who can't understand why you'd want to paint little men rather than work on RC cars. Maybe I just had a good GW--it was in Auburn Hills, MI--and poor FLGS here in my part of Virginia.

I used to go in one game shop where the staff were useless and uncommunicative. They were the only place that stocked things like Ral Partha, Mongoose, Reaper and various other independent miniature lines which was the only attraction to going in. They'd always be playing Magic the fething Gathering in the corner of the room blocking off access to the miniatures and they'd pull a right face if you asked if you could actually get to their stock. Sometimes they'd hardly move their seats let alone pause their game for a bit and you'd be left having to squeeze beside them still unable to see half the stuff. Then they'd drag their heels over actually serving you at the till. Jeeze it just wasn't worth the hassle of being made to feel like an inconvenience for going to their shop to peruse their stock so I stopped going. I used to really like going but there was a change of staff or management or something in the last few years. It's still going though, so some people spend money there.

@Howard: That's very familiar. That's why I didn't mind the redshirt who at least tried to memorize my name and armies (although unsuccessfully since I didn't come in every week) and would enthusiastically, not just patiently, explain 40k to younger folks who were pretty obviously putting him on. Seemed a good sort to me but that's just my experience.

Weird ive had over a dozen hobby shops (daddy was military by way of explanation) and not one was ever bad. then again all of them were operated by the owner, and not hired staff.
on topic: ive always treated red shirts just like i treat Jahova withnesses. with kindness, (cause if i dont, i feel like i just kicked a puppy...... thru the goal posts, ..... onto a highway..... at rush hour....... (which some one will do in around 30 seconds from the time i say goodbye))) because i never get it out of my head that they wont be killed by the end of act one. poor bastages....

I used to shop at the local GW, but the pushiness has just made it a bad experience to shop there. I buy most of my stuff on-line now, more relaxed and far cheaper.

The FLGS I go to back in Calgary are pretty nice. The one I used to go to while they still had 40k and other GW junk (they simply don't have enough people in the neighbourhood anymore to facilitate having large GW stock anymore) had some really friendly staff who were great to talk to and fun to play against.

And even though I've only been to Sentrybox once, the guys there seem pretty cool (although they were kind of busy when I was last there).

Honestly im wouldnt get mad at them. They are just doing there job. They have to sell some things in there stores that are cluddering up. Are we know starting to get mad at people for doing there job? Oh wait i forgot about telemarketers.

garret. ya thats another point, they have to act that way or become unemployed. lets not forget who the real beast is behind the redshirts. (poor lil guys)

Empchild wrote:As a former redshirt I hate to say that this is all part of the training they give you at GW. Their is a set of ten rules on a card you must memorize, and apply with everycustomer. Such as once they enter you have 15 seconds to personally greet them otherwise you can get in a ton of trouble. Then you basically have to become the customers friend, and "guide" them through their selection. Often you must remind them of the bits catalogue, and glue/white dwarfs, etc. .. This is all part of their sales style so saidly I agree as it is much like a used car salesmen, but supposedly it works well. If you don't do this and a secret shopper catches you it can be grounds for firing.

BINGO!!!

I found this out after being a regular at one of our shops a while back, the Poor things.

I think everyone who wants to work for GW in one of thier shops doesn't really get it until they get the indoctrination treatment, drink the kool aid, and then gets thrown back out into the unwashed masses to be a corperate lacky. I looked into the job back then, heard the stories, looked over a coveted book, and then said, no thanks. I don't need that kind of aggravation.

I want to really know who the genius was that thought up turning regular gamers that want to work in a... game shop, into douchebag used car ssalesmen. I mean really, we all play GW games, you would think that they would HIRE gamers, or at least someone who gave a rats behind about gameing,and actually knew what they were talking about, instead of the hollow worn out speech about "Hey, what about these kool kool new so and so's.."

I found that it didn't happen after you go into the shop a few times, but from what I gathered, they,( GW) send in a test case to be an asshat to the redshirts, to see if they are on thier toes... Is this true? They actually pay a guy to go around, waste the redshirts time to act like an ass to get a sale out of them?

Does this tactic get some extra benifits or something for GW?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spacemanvic wrote:Is it any wonder redshirts are the first to die in Star Trek?

Sigged.

I've had a mixed experience with redshirts.

The nearest GW to me had 2 redshirts who were relatively helpful, but one in particular I often found brushing me off ASAP to talk to some friends of his. (I was new to the game and of course had tons of questions) However, the manager was pretty cool.

So, maybe a couple of months or so later, I noticed that the original 2 redshirts had been fired or something, but only one was replaced. The management also changed, but I found that the redshirts in general were pretty cool, actually gave me some free stuff.

Now, I don't know who works there currently.

kinghammer wrote:Maybe we should look at it from the redshirts side:

Do you think they get tired of talking to mouth breathers?
Do you think that it is a retail location, so maybe their job is to sell?
Do you think they like to hear all the lame paint schemes and army ideas?
Do you think(god forbid) they might like their job and they are excited?
Do you they might want to talk about the hobby?

Maybe they do not know who you are and are trying to learn more about you. I have been around tons of great Readshirts and have never had any problems. There are so bad ones, but they have of thankless job that makes them talk to that wierd guy(that no one talks to) that comes into a GW or FLGS. Maybe next time you can strike up a conversion with him and tell him that you have been around the hobby for years or that you stay on top of the new releases.

Cheers

Or maybe we can look at it from both the customer's side and actually GW's side.
Is it Productive? or counter productive

/end thread.

I mean really, we all play GW games, you would think that they would HIRE gamers,

Why? After 22 years of personal experience training people to work in a game store, I'd rather hire a good worker, and teach them games. Or better yet, look for a solid worker that knows games.

But given the choice, I'll take work ethic over gaming knowledge. I can teach gaming.

The Amsterdam store was a great place to go, but they replaced the awesome, chatty blokes with massive tools who really can't handle questions from people who've been around long enough by now to know the lascannon from a plasma gun. Also, non-GW tools and paints are daemon spawn to them. Worst of all is when they let you see a new upcoming codex, they'll hover over your shoulder very intently.

BrookM wrote:Worst of all is when they let you see a new upcoming codex, they'll hover over your shoulder very intently.

They are trying to smell you

Ottawa redshirts are cool, although the old, second store they used to have used to be a little douchey.

Having worked in two different FLGS, I can tell you that the 'hard sell' works MUCH better than just saying hello, and leaving be, especially with people new to the store. When a salesperson says "Hello, how are you? Are you looking for anything in particular? Do/What do you play?" he's not trying to cram product down your throat, he's opening lines of communication. Likewise, "Have you heard about X?" is a lot more often answered with no, than yes. Granted I'm not very knowledgeable about GW staffers since we don't have one in the area, but these are proven methods for making sales. The new customer, even the ones that are 'just browsing' respond to the personal greeting, much better than being left alone; it conveys a a sense of "You are important to us, and worth the time to talk to." To the regulars it might be annoying, but it offers the opportunity to ask any questions, or to shoot the breeze.

As said earlier, honesty is the best policy; Let them get through their spiel, acknowledge your appreciation of their attempts to keep you in the know, and then tell them what exactly you're there for. If they insist on continue trying to sell you, tell them that they are being very helpful and if you DO decide you need something you'll be sure to look for them specifically to help with your order.

Redshirts at my local store tend to love the fact that they know more than you (funny because it's often not true) and then begin to stammer and stutter when you mention something that you 'shouldn't' know.

Like the other night:

Redshirt: Hey, here's the instructions. What do you think of that. *looks around to make sure no one else is looking*
Me: Ok cool. There are the parts for the Trygon, Mawloc and the Trygon Alpha. Very nice.
Other Redshirt: Yeah, the Alpha. He's like a meaner angrier version of the Trygon.
Me: And he gets Synapse.
Other Redshirt: Well... uhh... umm... but... uhh... we... we haven't uhh... got the Codex so... we... uhh... yeah. I ... umm... not sure really.

I mean... they're not stupid, so why do they act like they don't know? Do they really not know?

When my local GW first opened up 13 (almost 14, wow) years ago, I was just a young lad but I ended up going there quite a bit as it wasn't very popular. Eventually the staff got to know myself and my friends and we would hang out there for hours on end... but we weren't little gak disturbers like most kids are these days... we actually helped out. We would work with the staff to help restock, run demo games, and things of that nature. A few times we stayed after the store closed and played some private games. All in all it was a lot of fun with some great people and that's what kept me in the hobby. As time went on though, a new district/area manager arrived and basically ruined everything. All the cool people left, my friends and I stopped coming, and all the cool staff was replaced with mindless GW goobers.

Two of my friends that ended up working there part time were fired for literally no reason whatsoever and they weren't even given a notice or anything. I thought that was very poor etiquette and since then I've gone to the store maybe twice.

Now they have some old crusty looking people that work there and they really aren't doing much for the image of the hobby, if you get my meaning

Oh! And the greatest thing that I heard was something like this (the topic of the conversation was my Emperor's Children army I was working on):

Me: ...so yeah, if you'd like to see some pictures of my army since I obviously don't have it with me, you can go to DakkaDakka.com and check out my gallery. I have a lot of pictures up for it. Do you have an account there?
Redshirt: No we're not allowed to be on any of those kind of websites, I could lose my job.
Me: *blank stare of disbelief* What... seriously?

The conversation continued for a bit after that but my mind has erased it since it lowers my IQ every time I think about it . I mean seriously; how would they know unless they posted that it was them specifically. And why would they fire someone for being on a forum anyways? That's just ridiculous. Then again, it IS GW...

The one in Greenwich village is very nice. I've been in there two or three times, and already they know who I am. Of course, I suppose it helped that my first time in, I was brand new, had no idea how anything worked, and pretty much got interested by looking at the FW/GW websites. I pretty much asked the guy what I needed to get started playing IG and painting/whatever. Really did set me up with everything I needed. The next day I came back with my assembled Catachan Battleforce. He primed a squad, and sat down with me and walked me through step-by-step painting.

On subsequent visits I get the "Hey how are you" and "Can I help you find something?" Other then that they leave me be, (probably because I end up spending over $100 dollars every time I come in) and the one redshirt that taught me how to play/paint even gets the obnoxious screaming 10 year olds out of my way for me.

I'm saddened to hear that not all the GW shops are like this.

Empchild wrote:As a former redshirt I hate to say that this is all part of the training they give you at GW. Their is a set of ten rules on a card you must memorize, and apply with everycustomer. Such as once they enter you have 15 seconds to personally greet them otherwise you can get in a ton of trouble. Then you basically have to become the customers friend, and "guide" them through their selection. Often you must remind them of the bits catalogue, and glue/white dwarfs, etc. .. This is all part of their sales style so saidly I agree as it is much like a used car salesmen, but supposedly it works well. If you don't do this and a secret shopper catches you it can be grounds for firing.

And THIS means I will never ever ever ever enter a GW store. Period.

This sort of trash belongs in car sales, not game shops. I take that back, it doesn't belong in car sales either, but at least there I expect it.

I love all you armchair store owners. I suppose if you ran a store your plan for your staff would be:

1) Let the customers wander around.
2) Don't talk to them.
3) Don't try to help them find things.
4) Don't ask about their involvement in the hobby.
5) Don't ask them if they need hobby supplies.
6) Don't talk about new releases.
7) Don't tell them about the events the shop is running.

That's a sure fire way to keep the store in business.

Meh the problem for me is that they get really excited whenever a generic "what should i get for X" comes up because they start wandering over a large group of products. When I come in to buy stuff I say "I need X or Y (normally around the same price) help me choose please" normally there really cool and will talk the tactics and stuff. But dont give them the free rain to tell you what you need for your army or you're going to walk out of the store confused on how you bought Meganobz for your Lizardmen army (exageration of course)

Zoned wrote:I love all you armchair store owners. I suppose if you ran a store your plan for your staff would be:

1) Let the customers wander around.
2) Don't talk to them.
3) Don't try to help them find things.
4) Don't ask about their involvement in the hobby.
5) Don't ask them if they need hobby supplies.
6) Don't talk about new releases.
7) Don't tell them about the events the shop is running.

That's a sure fire way to keep the store in business.

There's a very real difference between being pushy and being friendly. GW staffers are overly-friendly, and quickly get annoying. I know its not really their choice and they have to do it in order to keep their jobs, so I understand. But still, it annoys me and it keeps me out of GW stores. I buy online or locally for everything I need, and it saves me both money and a headache.

[hrmm the quote I clicked on didnt work darn it]

Agreed MIK because when I owned my shop in southern Oregon we hired a gamer who we thought was a great worker. Sadly all he did was convince my partners to give him free product, and get lazy and expect his check. Rather have good employees then good gamers running a store.

I would much rather purchase something from someone being friendly and respectful instead of aggresive and in your face about glue and the new White Dwarf that no one cares about. If I say I'm just browsing, I'm just freakin' browsing. If I need assistance, I'll ask for it.

But therein lies the biggest problem. Some people are taking what the redshirts perceive as "friendly and respectful" to be "aggressive and in your face".

Seriously. Don't be a dick. They're minimum wage workers, who will especially tend to take the rules to the maximum if their managers are around. Listen to their spiel, then just say "No thank you."

Would a little politeness hurt?

Yeah but what if you are polite to them yet they persist. That's the point we are trying to make. Sure being polite to most people would work but some (er... most) of the people that work at GW will just keep picking and picking until you buy something you don't even need. I understand protocol and that some things are required but when they push crap that doesn't even have anything to do with the items you're browsing, that's just not cool.

I don't know what it's like in other areas/countries, but sometimes we get calls from people asking to clean our ducts or replace our doors and windows. "THANK GOODNESS that you called, ser, my window has been broken for 2 months and I don't even have a door any more. If it wasn't for you Id surely have froze to death!" My point is, quite simply, that is the impression I get when I enter a GW sometimes. If I'm in the 40k isle, I don't want to hear about the newest LotR release.

Okay.

Let's put this simple.

There's "polite", where you say "No thanks, I'm here for something specific. But I'll give you a holler if I need any help." and then there's "No it's cool, I'm just browsing."

The second is considered an invitation to try to get you interested into something. The first says "No, I'll ask you if I need help."
See the difference?

I dont mind red shirt asking me these:

If i need assistance
What army do i currently play ( and if its full sized )

What i dont need after replying to those 2 question ,
is if they try to push items NOT RELATED to my army.

There is been helpful , then there is annoyance in pushing me armies i have NOTHING to do with.

I understand they are humans , they can get bored , they want to socialize , thats fine
and im very happy to oblige. They want to chat , WE"LL CHAT. But if the chat some how ends in
trying to persuade me to buy some product (especially NOT related to me ) , NO THANK YOU ( i really hope i make myself clear by now guys )

BUT the annoyance comes from feels like they are door to door salesmen . And im sure this , speak for everyone that
dislike red shirts can related to .

Myes, of course I see the difference. But we are sensible people

Kanluwen wrote:There's "polite", where you say "No thanks, I'm here for something specific. But I'll give you a holler if I need any help."

The problem that I think some people are encountering is that even when they say this (which is what I would consider the nicest way of telling him to go away ) they are being badgered by other things like "Sure thing, I'll be right over here, but if you get the chance, why don't you take a look at the new White Dwarf?" or something to that effect. This conversation could go on forever with infinite amounts of 'what-ifs' but that would be counter productive. All I'm saying is that there are most definitely some redshirts that are more annoying than the fat sweaty guy breathing down your neck while you paint. On the opposite end of the spectrum, however, there are kind, polite, and respectful redshirts that know what it means when you say things like "Thanks for your assistance, I'll ask you if I need anything". In the end, it all depends on the person (as with everything in this world).

"You got the new Space Wolf sprue?" "Yeah you want to see it? You want to buy some more Rohan stuff?"

Redshirts are cool. Heck, you can even save the shipping on bits orders, or at least you used to.

anticitizen013 wrote:Myes, of course I see the difference. But we are sensible people

Kanluwen wrote:There's "polite", where you say "No thanks, I'm here for something specific. But I'll give you a holler if I need any help."

The problem that I think some people are encountering is that even when they say this (which is what I would consider the nicest way of telling him to go away ) they are being badgered by other things like "Sure thing, I'll be right over here, but if you get the chance, why don't you take a look at the new White Dwarf?" or something to that effect. This conversation could go on forever with infinite amounts of 'what-ifs' but that would be counter productive. All I'm saying is that there are most definitely some redshirts that are more annoying than the fat sweaty guy breathing down your neck while you paint. On the opposite end of the spectrum, however, there are kind, polite, and respectful redshirts that know what it means when you say things like "Thanks for your assistance, I'll ask you if I need anything". In the end, it all depends on the person (as with everything in this world).

But you see, that's just like the fact that there are CUSTOMERS who basically tell the redshirts to eff off when they did nothing but say hello.

It works both ways, just like any other personal interaction.

kenluwan , please tell me you can tell the difference while chatting with manager vs chatting with normal staff.

Talking to manager = like an normal chat / convo
Talking with staff with little experience = talking to LIFE INSURANCE SELLER ( oh im sure most people know how awful this is )

So its also experience ,
smart + experienced staff know how to make the customer happy and feel comfortable.
They know when enough is enough.

Kanluwen wrote:

anticitizen013 wrote:Myes, of course I see the difference. But we are sensible people

Kanluwen wrote:There's "polite", where you say "No thanks, I'm here for something specific. But I'll give you a holler if I need any help."

The problem that I think some people are encountering is that even when they say this (which is what I would consider the nicest way of telling him to go away ) they are being badgered by other things like "Sure thing, I'll be right over here, but if you get the chance, why don't you take a look at the new White Dwarf?" or something to that effect. This conversation could go on forever with infinite amounts of 'what-ifs' but that would be counter productive. All I'm saying is that there are most definitely some redshirts that are more annoying than the fat sweaty guy breathing down your neck while you paint. On the opposite end of the spectrum, however, there are kind, polite, and respectful redshirts that know what it means when you say things like "Thanks for your assistance, I'll ask you if I need anything". In the end, it all depends on the person (as with everything in this world).

But you see, that's just like the fact that there are CUSTOMERS who basically tell the redshirts to eff off when they did nothing but say hello.

It works both ways, just like any other personal interaction.

Aha... see this is the problem.
A hello have nothing to do with trying to sell you something. Quite different motives yes?

LunaHound wrote:kenluwan , please tell me you can tell the difference while chatting with manager vs chatting with normal staff.

Talking to manager = like an normal chat / convo
Talking with staff with little experience = talking to LIFE INSURANCE SELLER ( oh im sure most people know how awful this is )

So its also experience ,
smart + experienced staff know how to make the customer happy and feel comfortable.
They know when enough is enough.

First: Is it so difficult to spell "Kanluwen"? A. Not E. I don't call you Lunehound.

Secondly: Talking to managers can be just as bad. It's a personal interaction. Personal interactions involve people. People are all different.

Gasp. Amazing!
The new FLGS that just opened up nearby, they employed the same techniques. For every person they scare off with the intent of y'know...human interaction, they win over another five. It's a simple game of numbers. It doesn't matter that you dislike it, it doesn't matter that ANYONE dislikes it. It's a proven technique. It works. End of story.

Lol at anticitizen013. I would like you to try to be "friendly and respectful" yet lead into a sales conversation.

I have been to every GW in the GTA. Yes, they ask me if I need glue, paint...etc when I'm making a purchase. Usually I tell them "no thanks." And you know what, that's always the end of the story! They don't pester me more about it. And occasionally, they do remind me about something I forgot, which boosts the sale a little for them.

No matter what you think of WD, the staff are instructed to sell/promote it. So don't get upset at the staff. That's like getting mad at a waiter for suggesting an appetizer or dessert.

And you would run a very poor retail store if you simply let customers browse and not talk to them. Face it, when someone says "I'm just browsing" that really means "I'm looking for something, just not sure what." It's the retail employee's job to help you with that decision! 'Cause if you reach a decision, that equals a sale!

The alternative, you see, is to let the customer possibly reach no decision, which equals no sale. Why roll dice? Why not guide him to a decision and increase your chances of a sale?

The problem you may be encountering is the tact or art. Some employees are very knowledgeable and smooth when dealing with customers. Some are not.

And I have never, ever, in 13 years of going to a GW had an employee suggest something that wasn't related to my army. I'm fairly sure that 90% of these stories of "oooh, you play Tau, you want a Baneblade!" are internet myths. If I walk in and they ask me what I play, and I say Space Marines, we talk about my list, what's working and what's not. From there we talk about what units would complement my army, which I may or may not purchase later.

Kanluwen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:kenluwan , please tell me you can tell the difference while chatting with manager vs chatting with normal staff.

Talking to manager = like an normal chat / convo
Talking with staff with little experience = talking to LIFE INSURANCE SELLER ( oh im sure most people know how awful this is )

So its also experience ,
smart + experienced staff know how to make the customer happy and feel comfortable.
They know when enough is enough.

First: Is it so difficult to spell "Kanluwen"? A. Not E. I don't call you Lunehound.

Secondly: Talking to managers can be just as bad. It's a personal interaction. Personal interactions involve people. People are all different.

Gasp. Amazing!
The new FLGS that just opened up nearby, they employed the same techniques. For every person they scare off with the intent of y'know...human interaction, they win over another five. It's a simple game of numbers. It doesn't matter that you dislike it, it doesn't matter that ANYONE dislikes it. It's a proven technique. It works. End of story.

There is a problem with that.
1) where are you getting the numbers from with how many customer actually benefit from this type of sales pitch.
And here comes the other part you missed.
2) Assuming that the numbers you is accurate ( assuming ) , have you or GW took in account that
the amount of people that actually goes to the store that falls into the sales pitch = newbie customers?

You see , the number means nothing , if it doesnt include the people that DOESNT go to GW for such reasons.

See , lets play with numbers alittle .

Lets say 100 customers just to make it less math for me :3
You can say 90 customers enjoyed and bought w/e the red shirt successfully persuaded in selling.
so thats 90% success rate yes?

Alright , now here is the part you missed.
Lets say the other 100 are vets ( like most of the people in this thread that dislike shopping in gw store for w/e reasons ) actually avoid shopping there?

Now you have like 110 people out of 200 that doesnt shop there ,
the numbers suddenly changes ALOT doesnt it?

Or are you going to say im wrong ?

Why would a business push sales tactics that are ineffective?

Zoned wrote:The alternative, you see, is to let the customer possibly reach no decision, which equals no sale. Why roll dice? Why not guide him to a decision and increase your chances of a sale?

The problem you may be encountering is the tact or art. Some employees are very knowledgeable and smooth when dealing with customers. Some are not.

K 2 things you brought up , the later part i 100% agree .

The part i underline , its abit hard to say , here is why.
There are 2 types of customers.
a) newbies that are just new to the hobby and are not sure what to get . In this case , you are 1000000% correct , GW WILL benefit from this type .

b) not exactly vets , but people that atleast know what they are looking for. In other words people that went to GW for reasons , they have something they need to get.
Say they only brought $100 , or rather , decided to spend around $100 . So they bought the thing they had in mind , then you have the staff trying to persuade you to get
the extras that you werent even planning on getting. This will turn into annoyance.

LunaHound wrote:
There is a problem with that.
1) where are you getting the numbers from with how many customer actually benefit from this type of sales pitch.
And here comes the other part you missed.
2) Assuming that the numbers you is accurate ( assuming ) , have you or GW took in account that
the amount of people that actually goes to the store that falls into the sales pitch = newbie customers?

I made the numbers up in regards to an "official" GW store, just like your 9/10 ratio. However the 5-1 was given by the new FLGS when I asked him about it. Amazing how up front people are.

You see , the number means nothing , if it doesnt include the people that DOESNT go to GW for such reasons.

If you avoid going to a shop because of human interaction, seek therapy.

See , lets play with numbers alittle .

Lets say 100 customers just to make it less math for me :3
You can say 90 customers enjoyed and bought w/e the red shirt successfully persuaded in selling.
so thats 90% success rate yes?

9/10 people found something that they'd have missed otherwise. Big deal.

Alright , now here is the part you missed.
Lets say the other 100 are vets ( like most of the people in this thread that dislike shopping in gw store for w/e reasons ) actually avoid shopping there?

Just because you're a "vet" doesn't mean you're not a human, like any other customer. And if you're a "vet" trying out a new shop, and not discomforted by human interaction--you won't be interested in coming back to a shop that treats you as invisible. To say otherwise is ridiculous.

Now you have like 110 people out of 200 that doesnt shop there ,
the numbers suddenly changes ALOT doesnt it?

Or are you going to say im wrong ?

How the hell did you get 11:20 ratio when your numbers were 1:1 ratio for the amount of veterans "avoiding" the place and a 9:10 ratio for people who come back or buy something based on the redshirt's performance?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:Why would a business push sales tactics that are ineffective?

They attended the LunaHound school of business?

*shrug*

They wouldn't, at least not unless they're trying to drive themselves out of business.

Manchu wrote:Why would a business push sales tactics that are ineffective?

Because , like the example i just gave.
You can easily find "numbers" to your sales pitch , 9/10 success rate.

But , how do you "number" the people that end up not going because of bad sales tactics?
You cant , there are no numbers.

But the people exist for sure , look at this thread.

@Kanluwen: That was kind of my point.
@Luna: Seems like if the hard sell resulted in decreased numbers they'd adapt or go out of business.

Actually Luna, those people that don't go because of "bad sales tactics"?

They'd be the 1/10 failure rate.

Because y'know...they have to VISIT the store and be turned off by the tactics in the first place.

I really miss the GW store that used to be in St. Louis. The staff there was really cool and laid back. Sure they kept you "updated" on all the new goodies coming out but usually the sales pitch would turn into real conversations about the hobby. They were also very patient with myself and my friends when we were relearning the game after a ten year absence.

They never griped about me playing grey armies before I was confident with my painting. The guys also fielded many rules questions by my friends and myself over the phone when we played at home.

There was one guy who was stealing bits from orders placed within the store who eventually got caught, but other than that one bad seed my experiences at GW St. Louis Mills was a very positive one.

If you avoid going to a shop because of human interaction, seek therapy.

Im not going to fall for that flame bait . I know you are smarter than that , and i have never said not going to GW = avoiding human interaction.

9/10 people found something that they'd have missed otherwise. Big deal.

Its just a random number used for us to discuss to , you dont need to throw additional attitude in it .

Just because you're a "vet" doesn't mean you're not a human, like any other customer. And if you're a "vet" trying out a new shop, and not discomforted by human interaction--you won't be interested in coming back to a shop that treats you as invisible. To say otherwise is ridiculous.

A vet tries a new shop , is to get to know the staff. Not to get to know what "product" they are trying to push ( again , MANY people already brought this up which you chose to ignore over and over again )
other than the new staff, GW item are still GW items New shop or not.

How the hell did you get 11:20 ratio when your numbers were 1:1 ratio for the amount of veterans "avoiding" the place and a 9:10 ratio for people who come back or buy something based on the redshirt's performance?

Because the first ratio was just in agreeing with you , the number is irrelevant , it was just used to say "yes i agree the numbers can exist , and sure we'll say the red shirts are successful 90% of the time"
The later number represent the vets that dislike GW stores thus are not factored in your original number. Which again , the actual number is irrelevant , no need to nit pick.

They attended the LunaHound school of business?

Again , you are so funny.

Zoned wrote:Lol at anticitizen013. I would like you to try to be "friendly and respectful" yet lead into a sales conversation.

Don't laugh at me, you'll hurt my internet feelings! It's possible. Like Luna said... it's about experience, or even common sense (which, granted, isn't very common these days). Treat others how you would like to be treated etc etc etc. If a redshirt came up to me and was friendly and such, I'd be much more inclined to ask their assistance.

I have been to every GW in the GTA. Yes, they ask me if I need glue, paint...etc when I'm making a purchase. Usually I tell them "no thanks." And you know what, that's always the end of the story! They don't pester me more about it. And occasionally, they do remind me about something I forgot, which boosts the sale a little for them.

Protocol. It must be done. Glue and paint are easy to forget, definitely. And usually when I go they ask me the same stuff and that's the end of that as well... but some of them push it...

No matter what you think of WD, the staff are instructed to sell/promote it. So don't get upset at the staff. That's like getting mad at a waiter for suggesting an appetizer or dessert.

I was using WD as an example because that's happened to me before. They asked if I wanted that and I said no. They then proceeded to try to push a freakin subscription on me. No, I do not want dessert for 2 years thanks.

And you would run a very poor retail store if you simply let customers browse and not talk to them. Face it, when someone says "I'm just browsing" that really means "I'm looking for something, just not sure what." It's the retail employee's job to help you with that decision! 'Cause if you reach a decision, that equals a sale!

I never said that you leave them alone completely. That doesn't work from a business standpoint. I agree you must talk to the customer since that's their job, but the way that they do it is just unreal sometimes.

And I have never, ever, in 13 years of going to a GW had an employee suggest something that wasn't related to my army. I'm fairly sure that 90% of these stories of "oooh, you play Tau, you want a Baneblade!" are internet myths. If I walk in and they ask me what I play, and I say Space Marines, we talk about my list, what's working and what's not. From there we talk about what units would complement my army, which I may or may not purchase later.

It's happened to me several times. I've had Eldar stuff pushed on me, Marines, Tyranids... just because you haven't seen it happen with your own eyes doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

As for business tactics... that I know little of, except what works on me. I know that instead of pushing an army on me, I would rather have them ask what I'm interested in. If I'm unclear I'd expect them to help. If I am clear with what I want, I expect them to ring me through so I can get the hell out of there and start painting!

LunaHound wrote:

If you avoid going to a shop because of human interaction, seek therapy.

Im not going to fall for that flame bait . I know you are smarter than that , and i have never said not going to GW = avoiding human interaction.

It's not flame bait. If you're being put off by the fact that, God help you, the staff are interacting with you...there's something wrong.

9/10 people found something that they'd have missed otherwise. Big deal.

Its just a random number used for us to discuss to , you dont need to throw additional attitude in it .
Yeah. It's a random number used for us to discuss...because y'know as ridiculous as it sounds... There was no attitude, unless you're choosing to continue this ridiculous series of accusing of trolling/flaming whenever you make yourself look like an undereducated tool. It's as simple as:
If you end up finding something based on what a redshirt suggests--what the hell is the harm? I mean, really. Their plan isn't to do everything they can to sway you into THEIR ideals. Their plan is to y'know...sell something.
Being that they're salespersons.

Just because you're a "vet" doesn't mean you're not a human, like any other customer. And if you're a "vet" trying out a new shop, and not discomforted by human interaction--you won't be interested in coming back to a shop that treats you as invisible. To say otherwise is ridiculous.

A vet tries a new shop , it is to get to know the staff. Not to get to know what "product" they are trying to push ( again , MANY people already brought this up which you chose to ignore over and over again )
other than the new staff, GW item are still GW items New shop or not.

Uh, how are you going to get to know the staff without listening to their spiel first? Once again:
That is their way of opening a line of communication with you. They're not going to walk up and say "Sup", not if it's a GW shop. A FLGS maybe, but they'll also usually try to open with...gasp. Looking at what you're looking at, and making a conversation based on that!

How the hell did you get 11:20 ratio when your numbers were 1:1 ratio for the amount of veterans "avoiding" the place and a 9:10 ratio for people who come back or buy something based on the redshirt's performance?

Because the first ratio was just in agreeing with you , the number is irrelevant , it was just used to say "yes i agree the numbers can exist , and sure we'll say the red shirts are successful 90% of the time"
The later number represent the vets that dislike GW stores thus are not factored in your original number. Which again , the actual number is irrelevant , no need to nit pick.

Um, no. If you're going to use exact numbers...there is a reason to nitpick.
A 90:100 success ratio, coupled with a 0:100 ratio for the veterans would be 90:200.

They attended the LunaHound school of business?

Again , you are so funny.

Answers in bold.

Where I live, the nearest GW is a mere 12-13 hr. drive away, so I get by mostly with mail order (the nearest GW stockist store is 2 and 1/2 hours away). However, I have always appreciated the personal touches that stores bring when you do visit (and spend money there). The smart stores will know their clients, and will figure out the proper approaches for them...

I have only been to actual GW stores about 6 times in the last 7+ years. Not because of any hatred of the redshirts (the few I've dealt with seemed ok, not overly pushy, but not too interested in selling/working either), but I find I enjoy more than GW games, and want to browse a store that carries more than their product.

When in the Vancouver (BC) area, my wife and I love to go to Imperial Hobbies in Richmond. Sadly, we have not been there for a couple of years, but every time we've been there in the past (we moved from North Vancouver to our current northern locale in '91), the owner/manager remembered us, would ask how we'd been, and generally chat about things other than gaming. It was a nice human touch... plus, they probably didn't see too many families come in, with father, mother and son all picking up product for their forces...

Whenever we're in the Calgary area, our choice of store has always been Sentry Box. Huge store, tons of product (including many Out of Print items), and the staff has always treated us well. We do most of our mail order from there, so they remember our names when they hear them, and a couple of years ago they hired a worker who is from our current hometown! So not only are they friendly (our last visit, my wife chatted with the owner for half an hour or so about Osprey Publishing Books and historicals), but we also have a local connection, too.

So in the end, I find it really depends on whether you receive the same type of "hard-sell" tactics regardless of your number of visits to a store (monthly, weekly, etc.), or if the staff adapt to you and your needs.

-Vilegrimm

But Vile...can you really expect to be remembered at what (essentially) is the fast food job of the hobby world?

That's the issue here. People seem to have problems with "not being remembered" or "hassled" at a corporate chain...but it's a minimum wage job, not a family business like your Sentry Box or Imperial Hobbies sound to be.

It's not flame bait. If you're being put off by the fact that, God help you, the staff are interacting with you...there's something wrong.

No , like i said many times already in this thread ( which let me remind you , you keep ignoring )
There is a difference between a chat in finding what army i field and play , perhaps even discussing on how to improve my army ( that i went into the store for )
vs
A chat that asks me what army i play and ends up asking me if i want to buy space marine drop pods. No , i dont need therapy thank you.

If you end up finding something based on what a redshirt suggests--what the hell is the harm? I mean, really. Their plan isn't to do everything they can to sway you into THEIR ideals. Their plan is to y'know...sell something.
Being that they're salespersons.

Like myself and others have already brought up numerous times already. There is a finesse to sales .
I assume you havnt find the new staff that have no idea how to naturally convince the customer what to buy. Instead they literally bring you a box of another factions army that made you think "WFT?"

Uh, how are you going to get to know the staff without listening to their spiel first? Once again:
That is their way of opening a line of communication with you. They're not going to walk up and say "Sup", not if it's a GW shop. A FLGS maybe, but they'll also usually try to open with...gasp. Looking at what you're looking at, and making a conversation based on that!

Again , conversation that ends in a sales pitch , ending nicely or badly = depend on how good that guy is.
Sure , for the benefit of the doubt i'll say ok! i believe you that all the red shirt you have bumped into have the gift of a silver tongue.
But do not dismiss the different dakka members ( myself included ) that says otherwise.

Um, no. If you're going to use exact numbers...there is a reason to nitpick.
A 90:100 success ratio, coupled with a 0:100 ratio for the veterans would be 90:200.

Okee dokee , perhaps you misunderstood the purpose of those numbers. So ok i wont say its your fault , i'll retype what i wanted to say:
You said "However the 5-1 was given by the new FLGS when I asked him about it. Amazing how up front people are."
Sure , lets just say 5-1 = very very successful .
But my point is , when he said 5-1 did he factor in the customers that were turned off by GW sales pitch? Thus that didnt end up going there?
he didnt , he cant count numbers of the people that didnt go. Thus part of the number is actually "missing" if you will.
Thats my point.

Also , misinterpreting what i said / ignoring what i said on purpose and then tell me i need therapy?
You can call it w/e you want , its trolling / flame baiting / rude.

LunaHound wrote:

It's not flame bait. If you're being put off by the fact that, God help you, the staff are interacting with you...there's something wrong.

No , like i said many times already in this thread ( which let me remind you , you keep ignoring )
There is a difference between a chat in finding what army i field and play , perhaps even discussing on how to improve my army ( that i went into the store for )
vs
A chat that asks me what army i play and ends up asking me if i want to buy space marine drop pods. No , i dont need therapy thank you.

I love how you focus in on the therapy part.
It's called HUMAN CONTACT. They're chatting with you to figure out your interests. It's a common sales technique. They use it all the time on places like Best Buy, where they use what is considered "horizontal marketing", to slide you from talking about the 360 game you're looking at...to the potential 360 accessories or the TV you own, etc.
Just like the redshirt is doing something as simple as

If you end up finding something based on what a redshirt suggests--what the hell is the harm? I mean, really. Their plan isn't to do everything they can to sway you into THEIR ideals. Their plan is to y'know...sell something.
Being that they're salespersons.

Like myself and others have already brought up numerous times already. There is a finesse to sales .
I assume you havnt find the new staff that have no idea how to naturally convince the customer what to buy. Instead they literally bring you a box of another factions army that made you think "WFT?"

You're right. I haven't run into that form of staff. Because I'm up front with them about what I'm looking for, the moment they greet me at the door. I don't give them the standard garbage that most gamers give them. You know exactly what I'm referring to. The "Oh, I'm not interested so leave me alone". If you give them that line...they come on stronger.
Bear in mind, however, every GW shop I've gone to has been out of state, given that there ARE no "official" Games Workshop stores within my state. Or insofar as I know, the last one was in Charlotte three years ago. So no previous rapport, no link. Just simple human interaction.
Ironically, several of those stores I even walked out...without buying a thing other than a White Dwarf or a Dan Abnett book to read on the trip home!

Uh, how are you going to get to know the staff without listening to their spiel first? Once again:
That is their way of opening a line of communication with you. They're not going to walk up and say "Sup", not if it's a GW shop. A FLGS maybe, but they'll also usually try to open with...gasp. Looking at what you're looking at, and making a conversation based on that!
Again , conversation that ends in a sales pitch , ending nicely or badly = depend on how good that guy is.
Sure , for the benefit of the doubt i'll say ok! i believe you that all the red shirt you have bumped into have the gift of a silver tongue.
But do not dismiss the different dakka members ( myself included ) that says otherwise.
Um, no. If you're going to use exact numbers...there is a reason to nitpick.
A 90:100 success ratio, coupled with a 0:100 ratio for the veterans would be 90:200.
Okee dokee , perhaps you misunderstood the purpose of those numbers. So ok i wont say its your fault , i'll retype what i wanted to say:
You said "However the 5-1 was given by the new FLGS when I asked him about it. Amazing how up front people are."
Sure , lets just say 5-1 = very very successful .

Five people convinced that your store has a great way of welcoming them to one person turned off by you being "overbearingly friendly" isn't very very successful. It's common, in that people LIKE being approached and made to feel welcome. A store owner is essentially acting as a host/hostess. Y'know, like when you invite someone into your home.

But my point is , when he said 5-1 did he factor in the customers that were turned off by GW sales pitch? Thus that didnt end up going there?
he didnt , he cant count numbers of the people that didnt go. Thus part of the number is actually "missing" if you will.
Thats my point.

Of course he didn't count the numbers of people that didn't go to the store because they were "turned off by the GW sales pitch".
Because those people...gasp...wouldn't be interested in the hobby anyways. I mean really. Where do you come up with these scenarios?

No need to make this personal.

Seems like we can a least agree that GW tactics can be mildly annoying but must be effective or GW would insist on some other kind of training.

Somehow, I think this thread is getting a little intense. Maybe everyone needs to chill out...

Oh, definitely Manchu.

The issue is that people whine about the tactics that GW choose. What the hell do they expect?
It's a low-paying job with a relatively high turnover. The sales are the bottom line. A family owned shop can afford a different tact.

Seconding what Manchu said. I, personally, find GW's tactics to be annoying but I'm sure they're effective for a lot of people. Everyone responds differently to different techniques.

I like Pie.

But see, Blake...like I just said right above you.

They're giving the best tactics they can to an undertrained workforce that's probably there just for a summer or second job.

Why should they devote anything more to it?

Right, which is why it's so frustrating when the local shop is so discourteous. The redshirt come-on can be a little much but, like I said, I prefer it to being ignored or otherwise offended.

Manchu wrote:Right, which is why it's so frustrating when the local shop is so discourteous. The redshirt come-on can be a little much but, like I said, I prefer it to being ignored or otherwise offended.

Exactly. It's ridiculous how many of the posters here apparently would be treated as nothings rather than as potential friends/customers.

I love how you focus in on the therapy part.
It's called HUMAN CONTACT. They're chatting with you to figure out your interests. It's a common sales technique. They use it all the time on places like Best Buy, where they use what is considered "horizontal marketing", to slide you from talking about the 360 game you're looking at...to the potential 360 accessories or the TV you own, etc.
Just like the redshirt is doing something as simple as

And i love how rude you are and expect people to dismiss an insult , not to mention dismissing the rest of the sentence.
Yes a convo is fine , they can ask me what i field ( this is my... 4th time saying this now? ) I think its FINE for them to ask and know about me.
and for the 4th time , I dont want a convo where i told him i play Eldar , and it some how ends with him bringing my a STUPID SPACE MARINE DROP POD.
Seriousely , will there be a 5th time? Sure you go to best buy to find a TV , they end up asking if you want a TV stand? UNDERSTANDABLE.
But what if they ask if you want a washing machine? then what?

You're right. I haven't run into that form of staff. Because I'm up front with them about what I'm looking for, the moment they greet me at the door. I don't give them the standard garbage that most gamers give them. You know exactly what I'm referring to. The "Oh, I'm not interested so leave me alone". If you give them that line...they come on stronger.
Bear in mind, however, every GW shop I've gone to has been out of state, given that there ARE no "official" Games Workshop stores within my state. Or insofar as I know, the last one was in Charlotte three years ago. So no previous rapport, no link. Just simple human interaction.
Ironically, several of those stores I even walked out...without buying a thing other than a White Dwarf or a Dan Abnett book to read on the trip home!

I love this , because this is just so Kenluwan. Again , you dismiss what other people goes through and place the blame must be on US. So because a sales pitch gone weird
it MUST be my fault that i made it that way? And its not because the inexperienced red shirt dunno how to push sales properly? No , you assume too much .

I know a couple of people posted previously that they have worked for GW in the past... I would like to hear exactly what they were trained. Maybe others in the retail business as well. I've never worked retail (my only job involves defending my country) so I don't know how these things differ between company to company.

Kan, aggressive tactics aren't a surefire thing and quite simply another method (ie more neutral) can easily replace that method and be more effective. Or it might not. From my perspective, the more aggressive a seller is, the less I want to buy from them, even if I need something.

So yes, we know they get paid minimum wage, but in this day and age at least they have a job. But that's another topic altogether.

They should devote more to it to better their sales? If you have poor salespeople then you're not making any cash.

Kanluwen wrote:Exactly. It's ridiculous how many of the posters here apparently would be treated as nothings rather than as potential friends/customers.

I don't think ANYONE has said that they would rather be ignored. What we are saying is we don't want the "OMG BUY BUY BUY NOW NOW NOW LOOK AT THIS BUY THAT SPEND YOUR MONEY" sales technique. A friendly sales pitch is great. You're in a STORE to buy something (generally), so there's no reason to fight over a person like they are the last one on earth.

In my admittedly limited experience, the "OMFG BUY BUY BUY NOW etc" sales pitch exists here on Dakka and not so much in the Bunkers.

Once again:
It's human contact and sales techniques. They're testing the waters to see what else they can get you interested in. Part of their job description is to move you away from just your entrenched ideas(Eldar to Space Marines) and make them more money.
Deal with it, or shop online.

And most times, in a situation like I mentioned at Best Buy?
They will ASK if you're furnishing a new apartment/home. In which case, they will try to sell you everything at once. Because, for some unknown reason...most people actually like convenience and one stop trips. Go figure.

Also:
Spell the fething name right. K. a. n. l. u. w. e. n. It's not complicated, it's not difficult.

And yes, I do place the blame on YOU, the customer. I've worked retail and service(2 years working at Borders as a cashier, and a year working as a waiter at TGI Friday's). I've spent my time dealing with crummy customers who've had a shoddy day and blow up in my The garbage customers try on you/try to hand you can be very ridiculous. No, you cannot return the CD you bought ten minutes ago at the store next door...and then burned onto a blank CD, right in the coffee shop within my view
No, I will not take the steak off your check because your RARE steak was still pink.
You ordered it that way.

If you believe that the therapy comment was exclusively aimed at you, get off the paranoia train. It's a blanket statement to the people who get up in arms whenever, God Forbid, a redshirt communicates with them.
And you're right. It doesn't help the conversation. But, it does point out that so many of the people who post here seem to be socially dysfunctional it's no wonder you end up with gajillions of posts/non-stop time on here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:In my admittedly limited experience, the "OMFG BUY BUY BUY NOW etc" sales pitch exists here on Dakka and not so much in the Bunkers.

I would also like to point this out.

I've been to no less than six different stores, from all over the East Coast. I have encountered this approach, once. And that was on a day where I was the only customer.

Manchu wrote:In my admittedly limited experience, the "OMFG BUY BUY BUY NOW etc" sales pitch exists here on Dakka and not so much in the Bunkers.

It's the internet... things need to be flashy to get your attention . But in real life, the situation is quite different. I mean you won't get people freaking out and whining about the spelling of their name... and telling everyone they need therapy and have paranoia. But I think that's it for me in this thread as it has clearly degraded into something less than readable. Isn't that right, Kanlewan?

*twitch*

Anti wants hurts.

This thread was incomprehensible garbage from the first page on.
If you have a problem with how GW staff act, tell them to their fething face. How is the company supposed to know to alter their tactics if all you do is whine on the internet?

That's also why, like any other company out there, they have a Customer Service department.

K. a. n. l. u. w. e. n.

I think your still missing something here... cool they try to get me hooked from eldar to space marines... it makes sense... but not when they do it every time you go in there... and its the same guy doing...

EDIT: after reading your last post... I suppose its wrong to treat Red shirts like "garbage" but exploding in their face telling them how much you hate what they do is ok? Makes sense... I guess

If they're doing it, "everytime you go in there" then TELL THEM TO KNOCK IT OFF.

Jesus, how complicated is this?

Do I need to come up with some kind of magical anti-Redshirt Formula?

They are not mind-readers. They are average human beings(more often than not--under 18 also), at a minimum wage job and doing something that they're told to do. They do not know they are doing wrong unless you tell them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Buttlerthepug wrote:K. a. n. l. u. w. e. n.

I think your still missing something here... cool they try to get me hooked from eldar to space marines... it makes sense... but not when they do it every time you go in there... and its the same guy doing...

EDIT: after reading your last post... I suppose its wrong to treat Red shirts like "garbage" but exploding in their face telling them how much you hate what they do is ok? Makes sense... I guess

If you can't figure out a way to politely say "As I was in here last time, I am STILL not interested in buying a Space Marine Drop Pod. I am settled in with my Eldar, and not interested in a new army at all" then please. Don't ever come into a shop I'm working in.

@anti: Oh, I wasn't trying to criticize you're description, I know what you're referring to. I kind of agree with Kanluwen (which sounds like a cool Jedi name to me) that there is a strange, anti-social bent to the complaints that a strong sales pitch should be returned with such vitriolic hatred rather than a polite "I'm just browsing, I'll let you know if I need any help." When I told that to my redshirt in MI, he'd back off until I asked a question or struck up another conversation. I know that's not how it always works but I think when you get a real stinker it's more to do with that individual than GW or redshirts in general.

Kanluwen wrote:If they're doing it, "everytime you go in there" then TELL THEM TO KNOCK IT OFF.

Jesus, how complicated is this?

Do I need to come up with some kind of magical anti-Redshirt Formula?

They are not mind-readers. They are average human beings(more often than not--under 18 also), at a minimum wage job and doing something that they're told to do. They do not know they are doing wrong unless you tell them.

Wait... hold on a second.... so you are telling me "I've worked retail and service(2 years working at Borders as a cashier, and a year working as a waiter at TGI Friday's"
That its not GW's manager's responsibility to train their staffs properly? and that its the customer's?

*deep breath*.

They train their staff to react a particular way, NO MATTER HOW THE CUSTOMER ACTS.

If a salesperson is not flexible, they continue reading from that script...even if the person is not interested.
If a salesperson is flexible, they will divert from the script and move from there into a different territory.

Just like, in any other case of human interaction--things are fluid.

Ive never once seen a red shirt thats under 20... and even thats pushing it. And who says they need to read minds to get a hint... Its not that hard to pick up when someones irritated or knows what they want...etc... I guess I should go break a window... I dont know its wrong unless someone tells me.

Kanluwen wrote:*deep breath*.

They train their staff to react a particular way, NO MATTER HOW THE CUSTOMER ACTS.

If a salesperson is not flexible, they continue reading from that script...even if the person is not interested. <-- That looks fluid to you? Thats how NPCs behave.
If a salesperson is flexible, they will divert from the script and move from there into a different territory.

Just like, in any other case of human interaction--things are fluid.

Reply = in red.

Manchu wrote:@anti: Oh, I wasn't trying to criticize you're description, I know what you're referring to. I kind of agree with Kanluwen (which sounds like a cool Jedi name to me) that there is a strange, anti-social bent to the complaints that a strong sales pitch should be returned with such vitriolic hatred rather than a polite "I'm just browsing, I'll let you know if I need any help." When I told that to my redshirt in MI, he'd back off until I asked a question or struck up another conversation. I know that's not how it always works but I think when you get a real stinker it's more to do with that individual than GW or redshirts in general.

Haha, no worries, I was just using the all caps for added emphasis . Some of the things I'm stating I'm exaggerating on purpose to prove a point... since the main point of this thread is essentially 'do you find the GW staff annoying at times', not 'are the GW sales tactics effective'.

But yeah your experience there is exactly what it should be every time. He spoke with you (the customer) and you didn't need any help and if you did you'd ask him. Too easy. I also agree with you on your point about it being the individual (I don't know if you read this entire abortion of a thread) but that is my main point, in the end.

EDIT: LOL @ NPC comment, Luna

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:*deep breath*.

They train their staff to react a particular way, NO MATTER HOW THE CUSTOMER ACTS.

If a salesperson is not flexible, they continue reading from that script...even if the person is not interested. <-- That looks fluid to you? Thats how NPCs behave.
If a salesperson is flexible, they will divert from the script and move from there into a different territory.

Just like, in any other case of human interaction--things are fluid.

Reply = in red.

Read the point you're aiming at.

"If a salesperson is not flexible, they continue reading from that script...even if the person is not interested."
It means that salesperson has terrible human interaction skills, and probably shouldn't be in a customer service job--much less one apparently as high end as working with hobbyists!

Kanluwen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:*deep breath*.

They train their staff to react a particular way, NO MATTER HOW THE CUSTOMER ACTS.

If a salesperson is not flexible, they continue reading from that script...even if the person is not interested. <-- That looks fluid to you? Thats how NPCs behave.
If a salesperson is flexible, they will divert from the script and move from there into a different territory.

Just like, in any other case of human interaction--things are fluid.

Reply = in red.

Read the point you're aiming at.

"If a salesperson is not flexible, they continue reading from that script...even if the person is not interested."
It means that salesperson has terrible human interaction skills, and probably shouldn't be in a customer service job--much less one apparently as high end as working with hobbyists!

BRAVO ! WELL SAID , which brings us back to this:

Kanluwen wrote:And yes, I do place the blame on YOU, the customer. I've worked retail and service(2 years working at Borders as a cashier, and a year working as a waiter at TGI Friday's). I've spent my time dealing with crummy customers who've had a shoddy day and blow up in my The garbage customers try on you/try to hand you can be very ridiculous.

What is your point?

That a customer cannot be wrong?

It's a two way street, Luna. If a customer comes in and immediately gives the employee attitude--well guess what? You're going to get attitude back, for the most part.

It's human nature.

Once again, I think we can assume from a numbers perspective that the hardsell is effective. The redshirt is there to sell you little plastic men not to ignore you as you skulk through the store and then out the door. He talks to you about buying things because it's his job. It is unlikely that this job is his ultimate career goal so chances are he's not the ace salesman you might prefer. But he's trying.

The "redshirts are cancer" side of this argument relies on an extreme--namely that the salesperson is so annoying that it will cause you to not buy anything and never come back. The fact that there are still retail locations disproves the notion that this is anything but a minority response to the hard sell. If you are in that minority, so be it. There's online shopping for you. What I don't get is why you still feel the need to badmouth the concept of their approach. It's obviously accomplishing the mission well enough to be worth a corporation paying for it.

Wait... who said anything about walking in and giving them attitude... this is about them hasseling you about stuff you dont need/want... not getting the hint to stop... and being a major annoying pain...

Manchu wrote:Once again, I think we can assume from a numbers perspective that the hardsell is effective. The redshirt is there to sell you little plastic men not to ignore you as you skulk through the store and then out the door. He talks to you about buying things because it's his job. It is unlikely that this job is his ultimate career goal so chances are he's not the ace salesman you might prefer. But he's trying.

The "redshirts are cancer" side of this argument relies on an extreme--namely that the salesperson is so annoying that it will cause you to not buy anything and never come back. The fact that there are still retail locations disproves the notion that this is anything but a minority response to the hard sell. If you are in that minority, so be it. There's online shopping for you. What I don't get is why you still feel the need to badmouth the concept of their approach. It's obviously accomplishing the mission well enough to be worth a corporation paying for it.

THANK YOU!


You do NOT encounter these forms of redshirts at every store. Experiences alone have dictated that to me. I have only walked out of a GW store ONCE, over almost 15 years of checking them out in which I felt I was given the form of extreme sales-pitch that is suggested in this thread.
Maybe it's different in the UK, maybe it's different in Canada, I don't know. I've only checked out the Eastern Coast of the US' stores. And the only employee who gave me that kind of hardsale, was pulled aside by his manager and told to calm it down a notch.

Kanluwen wrote:What is your point?

That a customer cannot be wrong?

It's a two way street, Luna. If a customer comes in and immediately gives the employee attitude--well guess what? You're going to get attitude back, for the most part.

It's human nature.

Well... lets call it a start i guess. Atleast now you acknowledge it.

Kanluwen wrote: Maybe it's different in the UK, maybe it's different in Canada, I don't know. I've only checked out the Eastern Coast of the US' stores. And the only employee who gave me that kind of hardsale, was pulled aside by his manager and told to calm it down a notch.

Well its progress alright. Just remember this as general rule of thumb:
Your personal experience isnt enough to dictate or dismiss what you think others have or have not gone through.
If yourself saw it happen first hand granted only ONCE , then you know it can happen to others MORE than once.

*PS Im not sure whether to nitpick or not , but i find it weird.
For someone that complains about spelling someone's forum name , it sure is awfully weird
for you to cut someone's name in half. eg: LunaHound , or earlier Villegrimm.
I mean personally im fine with it , i wont get confused , and i know you are talking to me .
So out of curiosity , is kanluwen your real name?

What do you mean, Luna, about the two way street part? Could you explain more?

Manchu wrote:What do you mean, Luna, about the two way street part? Could you explain more?

Earlier when multiple people complained about red shirt's inexperienced sales tactics that leads to a bad end / store experience
he just claimed it must be the customer's fault / attitude / lack of social w/e that caused it.

Then yes now im glad that he is open mind about it to be possible both ways ( hence red shirt can be responsible )

- A Moderator says -
Everbody needs to just calm down a little and accept the fact that different people have different opinions. If you can't participate in the thread in a civil fashion, go find something else to do.

[/end rant]

LunaHound wrote:Lets say the other 100 are vets ( like most of the people in this thread that dislike shopping in gw store for w/e reasons ) actually avoid shopping there?

Veterans aren't GW stores' target audience, so if they stop coming in, that's not really a big problem, at least in GW's eyes.

Kanluwen wrote: It's not flame bait. If you're being put off by the fact that, God help you, the staff are interacting with you...there's something wrong.

There is a difference between interacting and being obnoxious. Some people have a rather deep-seated dislike of a heavy handed sales approach, and won't always react rationally to it. And those people will complain about it. They generally don't do so to the company in question... the customer service experience they've had up to that point gives them no reason to want to interact further with that company.

I would be very surprised if GW aren't fully aware that their sales tactics alienate some customers. What they're looking for is that magic point where the sales they get from the 'hard sell' outweigh the sales they lose from being perceived as pushy and obnoxious.

Grot 6 wrote:I found that it didn't happen after you go into the shop a few times, but from what I gathered, they,( GW) send in a test case to be an asshat to the redshirts, to see if they are on thier toes... Is this true? They actually pay a guy to go around, waste the redshirts time to act like an ass to get a sale out of them?

The 'Secret Shopper' is a fairly widely used tool in retail to ensure that staff are performing adequately. We used to have one in about every 3 months when I was working at Kmart... They would go through the store, assessing the general state of the store, how long they had to wait for service, the manner and appearance of the staff member who helped them, whether that staff member was helpful and sought the 'add-on sale' and a whole host of other things. The store manager would receive a summary report afterwards with a score for how well the store did.

LunaHound wrote:

Manchu wrote:What do you mean, Luna, about the two way street part? Could you explain more?

Earlier when multiple people complained about red shirt's inexperienced sales tactics that leads to a bad end / store experience
he just claimed it must be the customer's fault / attitude / lack of social w/e that caused it.

Then yes now im glad that he is open mind about it to be possible both ways ( hence red shirt can be responsible )

Inferring that it MUST ONLY be the customer's fault/attitude/lack of social skills is bad, mmkay.

People can be jerks when approached by retail staff, especially in specialty stores.
Look at the bad rap EB Games employees get(which, falls ironically...into the same category as what Redshirts get! Overly pushy, trying to sell you what's new...I see a pattern here).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote: - A Moderator says -
Everbody needs to just calm down a little and accept the fact that different people have different opinions. If you can't participate in the thread in a civil fashion, go find something else to do.

[/end rant]

Kanluwen wrote: It's not flame bait. If you're being put off by the fact that, God help you, the staff are interacting with you...there's something wrong.

There is a difference between interacting and being obnoxious. Some people have a rather deep-seated dislike of a heavy handed sales approach, and won't always react rationally to it. And those people will complain about it. They generally don't do so to the company in question... the customer service experience they've had up to that point gives them no reason to want to interact further with that company.

I would be very surprised if GW aren't fully aware that their sales tactics alienate some customers. What they're looking for is that magic point where the sales they get from the 'hard sell' outweigh the sales they lose from being perceived as pushy and obnoxious.

See, my biggest issue is this:
We never hear about people saying "Well, today a redshirt was pushy and mean to me! So, I asked to speak to his manager."
We just hear "Well, today a redshirt was pushy and mean to me! BOYCOTT GW!"

LunaHound wrote:Then yes now im glad that he is open mind about it to be possible both ways ( hence red shirt can be responsible )

Yeah, I'm not sure that it was ever in question that the redshirts do annoy some people to the point of running them off. Kanluwen even said this happened to him once. As insaniak pointed out, there are people who simply do not like the redshirt pitch and will be totally put off by it. I'm saying that the Dakka crowd disproportionately represents this demographic and that they're really overstating how bad an approach it is.

insaniak wrote:What they're looking for is that magic point where the sales they get from the 'hard sell' outweigh the sales they lose from being perceived as pushy and obnoxious.

I think they've already found that point and are practicing it as we type. There are individual deviations and that's where the stories regularly posted on Dakka come from.

I agree with Kanluwen's point that if you are annoyed by something you should complain (in a reasonable way) to the customer service department.

GW or any company can only act on the information available to them.

There is a minority in the minority who regularly send letters off to GW complaining about everything from rules to redshirts. If anything, the information GW is getting seems to tell them "we loose one out of twenty" (made up numbers, don't get excited folks) or whatever kind of ratio that doesn't add up to a crisis for them.

Manchu wrote:Why would a business push sales tactics that are ineffective?

Because they're not. I can tell you from personal experience that sales go up dramatically when every customer who walks through the door is engaged by an employee upon entering the store. Yes, some people get annoyed by this, and will likely not buy anything, but that number is significantly smaller than the number of "no sales" that occur when potential customers are allowed to 'just browse', especially if they're new to the hobby. The price tag is a significant deterrent to getting into a wargame, and unless there's somebody there to tell the potential player/parent exactly what the benefits are, most people will not pay the x amount of (dollars, pounds, etc.) for 'plastic toys'.

LH, we are 100% in agreement and thank you for bringing up the point that most people need convincing (even some wargamers every once in a while) that little plastic men are worth the money GW asks.

I too found the red shirts in Calgary to be a mixed bag. The one out at Scumridge Mall was where I would go to order stuff. Half of the staff were good, but the other half weren't. I think I know the one staff member Fafnir was talking about; He only stops talking to take a swig from the Pepsi Can growing out of his hand.

The GW staff here are great. Always pleasant, helpful and friendly. They never try to push any new releases or anything. Although, one of them looks like a Japanese version of Dermot from the Venture Bros.

Kanluwen wrote:What is your point?

That a customer cannot be wrong?

The customer can be wrong, it's the implication that those in the wrong are mentally ill could be the issue.

But, it does point out that so many of the people who post here seem to be socially dysfunctional it's no wonder you end up with gajillions of posts/non-stop time on here.

If you avoid going to a shop because of human interaction, seek therapy.

Simply, people don't mind being greeted in a shop, I've already described what an unwelcoming independent shop is like. But being pestered and badgered to buy various things is just annoying, particularly if they don't back down once it's been made clear you just want to browse alone. I think the hard-sell works better on the kids than it does older folk because younger people are more suggestible. Adults are more likely to know their product and know what they want. I also find that the hard-sell comes from younger salespeople, especially on a saturday and the pitch isn't adapted to anyone other than a 15 year old kid. That's why I rarely go to Games Workshop, I feel so old as to be embarassed, having to squeeze past the kids all leaping up and down shouting "BOOM!" and "WAAARGH" and suffer the miasma of teenage body odour.

If you go in on a quieter weekday things are much calmer, and you often get spoken to with genuine gaming interest rather than the feigned interest shown on a rushed Saturday morning when greeted with "What do you play? That's great, have you seen this latest unrelated release it's really cool?". The impression I get is that when they are busy it's all on script and that's tuned into kids, an adult prefers and adult conversation which isn't what salespeople have the time to engage in, unlike a quiet weekday. And that's where the friction is caused IMO.

Of course, this is caused in part by GWs release strategy. Every month a new army and they have to push it because virtually all the new products are of one army alone. It doesn't apply to historical manufacturers who produce a bit of this and a bit of that meaning there's always something for someone every month. That's not the case with GW, you can collect an army and go months, if not years, before seeing a new release. But it means having stuff pushed at you time and again that you are not interested in. Obviously the teenage level hard sell and the release strategy works for GW because they run a fairly healthy turnover and operate many shops, a lot of older and more experianced players/collectors are just collateral damage.

I did go into one shop a couple of years back and when asked what I did I said that I did various things but I'd just finished some Chaos Squats, honest enough response. I think it floored him, the look I got was very odd and he he responded with "ummm...ok" and shot off to deal with some other customers.

Wait, with all this talk of gw making us buy more does that mean their business is going down hill?

Ketara wrote:Here's how I counter it.

GW Employee: 'Hey there, have you seen our latest product X?'
Me: 'You must get so bored having to say that over and over again to all the customers'.
GW Employee:'Yeah, tell em about it. I swear, I dream about saying it these days'.
Me: 'That bad huh? You got long left on your shift?'
GW Employee: 'Rest of the day unfortunately.../Only an hour or so!'
Me: *begins generic natter about anything from weather to models*

People don't usually enjoy working, if you show a bit of sympathy to them, they usually cut out all the sales claptrap to talk about themselves. Which usually takes half the time, and means you all get along a lot better, as its more like a real conversation.

Remember, they don't WANT to talk about the new stompa for hours on end, they're told to by their bosses.

This really does work best. Ive worked retail for a number of years and that is basically the truest truth you can get lol. The nearest GW to me is about an hour away, so I RARELY go in there. Last time it was pretty annoying, was asked about what I play and such, so while I was in the middle of explaining my CSM chapter, I was cut off to be told about some new army crap that I wouldnt ever play. It was more then annoying to be honest lol

I think the 'hard sell' tactic is due to the very nature of a GW store. A lot of people will go into the shop not knowing exactly what it is that goes on in there, this makes it even more important for one of the staff to go over and run a basic sales spiel.

Think about it, if someone goes into a bar, they obviously want some booze, so all the staff have to do is sit behind the counter and pull pints. Same goes for a computer game store etc...

Because Wargaming is a fairly niche hobby the amount of people who need to be educated as to what the shop actually sells is going to be far higher than in other areas of retail. This leads to them needing an aggressive
sales pitch so they can bag as many sales as possible.

When i moved to Chester and started frequenting the local GW i did get the usual 'Hiya buddy; what are you after today?', 'can i help you choose something for your army?', etc... As soon as i said i played SoB, i was directed to the internet terminal and left alone

Now that i've been going in regularly, all the staff do is occasionally ask if i need glue, paints, GS and the like. Which i don't mind as i can be a bit scatterbrained.

The only time i've ever had the 'Look at this! Isn't it cool? Why not buy one?' speech was in GW manchester when the Stompa had just been released. I could see why the guy was trying to push it, but seeing as i was holding a box of seraphim and an immolator kit it should have been clear that it wasn't going to be a sale.

The problem with the redshirt sales tactics is that GW are trying to turn awkward nerds into high-pressure sales types. The jittery, pushy interpersonal behaviour that emerges from the resulting cognitive dissonance can be fascinating to watch and very uncomfortable to get trapped in.

You can just short-circuit the whole agonising experience of The Rules Card by smiling broadly at all the staff and waving hello as soon as you enter the shop. Then they relax and leave you alone.

Then when they're not looking, get your knob out.

Manchu wrote:Why would a business push sales tactics that are ineffective?

...what?

By the way, Luna and Kanluwen, YOU HAVE MET DIFFERENT SALESMEN! Accept that Luna met the 16 years old TFG in a red shirt, while Kanluwen met normal people
Third edit: Well, i noticed im a little late. But my point stands.

Lordhat wrote:

Manchu wrote:Why would a business push sales tactics that are ineffective?

Because they're not. I can tell you from personal experience that sales go up dramatically when every customer who walks through the door is engaged by an employee upon entering the store. Yes, some people get annoyed by this, and will likely not buy anything, but that number is significantly smaller than the number of "no sales" that occur when potential customers are allowed to 'just browse', especially if they're new to the hobby. The price tag is a significant deterrent to getting into a wargame, and unless there's somebody there to tell the potential player/parent exactly what the benefits are, most people will not pay the x amount of (dollars, pounds, etc.) for 'plastic toys'.

There is alot of good explination of the "Hard Sell" horror that people are being on about here. A good explanation of a few other things, as well...
good points on this post.

Zoned wrote:I love all you armchair store owners. I suppose if you ran a store your plan for your staff would be:

1) Let the customers wander around.
2) Don't talk to them.
3) Don't try to help them find things.
4) Don't ask about their involvement in the hobby.
5) Don't ask them if they need hobby supplies.
6) Don't talk about new releases.
7) Don't tell them about the events the shop is running.

That's a sure fire way to keep the store in business.

Well, consdering I do run a small retail business that has nothing to do with gaming, I can honestly say, yes there are other and perhaps better ways to sell and close other than the hard sell.

There's a difference between acknowleging the customer, and follwing them around the store badgering them about stuff.

Perhaps it just might be my line of work, but you ackowelege their precense witha hello, or even a simple nod, then you judge whether they need help or not. SOmetime folks really do prefer to look in peace and quiet for a bit, and then you can tell by body laguage that their ready to be interacted with. Sometimes I ask if they need help and they say just looking, I simply tell them to yell out if they do, and do some paper work, but still keep an eye on them because they may have questions.

The hard sell can work, but it can drive away sales too. You have to know when to press and when to back off.

^^This. I absolutely agree. For me, it's when you've asked politely more than once that you just want to browse, and they still keep pestering you.

I appreciate that these guys are most likely put in this awkward position by GW globo-corp. Which is why I always let it go the first three times. I just think that a little common sense could be applied by the sales-person in question depending on the customer.

Unless, of course, they had thought that JJ had hand-picked me to check up on their sales patter and report back to HQ...

....That's right, he didn't even mention the greatswords. I shall Have him turfed out on his ear forthwith!

Personally, I only go in when I want a bunch of stuff and I always know what I want. Anyone starts the "Have you seen the new..." then I just rattle off the list of what I want and let them run about picking it all for me.

I've worked at my father's autoparts store on multiple occasions (sometimes selling, sometimes restocking, sometimes fixing computers, sometimes cleaning... the list goes on and on. I don't have an official job there), and we've always been friendly with our customers. Greet them when they come in, help them find out what they want when they ask for it (on multiple occasions, I've had to hold down the store --on days when I didn't even plan on working-- while my dad went out to actually go and fix someone's car/install parts that someone bought), and if we're not to busy, we even have the occasional conversation with our customers.

However, Gamesworkshop is far beyond 'friendly' in that regard, it's simply annoying and frustrating. A greeting when you enter the store is great. Asking if you're looking for something in particular is fine, but after that, it becomes way too aggressive for me to feel comfortable shopping. It's almost like you have a temporary stalker as soon as you enter the store, until the moment you leave.

First redshirt experience was in Japan. I walked in and became kid in a candy store. Japanese man spoke to me without an accent. I freaked out and bought a new dex (DH, lol) GK termies and some PAGK. He gave me a sweet deal on a GK grand master too. Now i have to get motivated on this IG before i can paint my DH.

Aggressive is when the lady(!) red shirt ignores your question of "where is the Last Chancers boxed set?" and instead tells you to play Orks instead, because.. *sigh* YES, green is best. Now where is that box?

With the old regulars you'd know they'd leave you alone or chat up with you on stuff like TV or *gasp* other table top games, but the current generation of shirts are nothing short but good and proper company tools. You'd almost expect them to go "sieg heil" before the store opens.

Another reason to go to my two FLGS, good guys who remember what you play and always open for a good chat about this or that, especially hobby related or when asking for tips on how to do stuff.

I've bought most of my minis from my local GW, I think.
That said, I'm put off going into my local GW to browse sometimes because of the behaviour of the staff. When you say you collect a certain army and that no, you don't have such and such an item and they then place the box in your hands, it feels like a bit of a hard sell.

Perhaps I'm just odd.

They just need to hit their sales quotas otherwise they'll be put on the first train.

pwotsanchez wrote:The problem with the redshirt sales tactics is that GW are trying to turn awkward nerds into high-pressure sales types. The jittery, pushy interpersonal behaviour that emerges from the resulting cognitive dissonance can be fascinating to watch and very uncomfortable to get trapped in.

You can just short-circuit the whole agonising experience of The Rules Card by smiling broadly at all the staff and waving hello as soon as you enter the shop. Then they relax and leave you alone.

Then when they're not looking, get your knob out.

QFT.

IME there are two factors at work in the majority of complaints about Red Shirt customer service.

1. A lack of proper social skills/training on the part of the Red Shirt.
2. A lack of proper social skills/confidence on the part of the customer.

Either one can make the experience awkward, and either one can lead to the customer posting to complain here or on another forum, rather than having a reasonable chat with the Red Shirt or the Red Shirt's manager.

Yes, Redshirts are often annoying and I'll admit to avoiding GW retail locations as a result. I have a fantastic RT store locally though, so it's not as though the GW location is my only option. The problem with Redshirts has a lot to do with GW's company policies and hiring practices, as well as their target demographic. GW doesn't aim to hire competent sales people, they hire people who play GW games (and occasionally happen to be competent sales people). That list of things the staff must do for every customer does a number of things for GW. First, it obviates the need for more indepth sales training. It also accounts for the bad pressure sell people here have been atlking about, but GW doesn't really care. Why? Becuase their sales strategy targets kids in the 12-15 age bracket who are new to the hobby. GW wants to sell starter kits and first armies, and their sales directives aren't in the slightest bit aimed at veteran players (who often find them annoying and intrusive). The pressure is also a result of the overall corprate identity at GW, and that's one of massive personnel turnover (at more than just the Redshirt level) characterized by intense pressure to perform and a history of random and baseless terminations.

I worked in a RT store for a long time, and I got to know a lot of GW staff over the years. I've heard a lot of horror stories about people getting canned for bizarre reasons and about the byzantine internal politics that govern GW at seemingly every level. I would not want to work for GW at all.

So yeah, I find Redshirts frequently annoying, but I'm generally quite polite anyway since I know what GW's like. I cannot stand the GW brand sales tactics, which are a dumbed down version of a real sales tactics, but I also realize that a lot of Redshirts don't know any better. I also know, from working in a GW intensive store, just how damned difficult it is to find employees that are both skilled at the sales part (with a certain elan in the interpersonal communication and hygiene departments) and also at least moderately in touch with the hobby. It is certainly possible to greet every customer, to approach them while they're browsing product, and to guide them to a purchase (and even upsell them) without being an annoying jerk, but I don't expect to see that at many GW stores.

hmmm whate ive found out is that if you come often enough and become a regular they stop trying to sell you stuff every time and talk about things before there released he even told me about stuff coming into the brand new Nid dex =D

Rinkydink wrote:Just a quckie that really annoys me...

How does everybody find their local GW staffers. Some are great, no doubts, but more and more I find them far too over friendly/pushy. it's really putting me off of ever stepping foot in their shops. Below is my most recent experience;
*snip*

I know what you mean.
There's one NEW kid in my local store who is always trying to sell me stuff I have no interest in.
He's pushy, arrogant (in that he seems to think that he knows what I want better than I do) and has no idea how to deal with the veterans.

When I mentioned that the guard army I was working on was going to be my last army, and that I would not be buying any more GW stuff afterwards, he laughed at me and added "yeah, well... Good luck with that."

The Two chimeras on the counter and handful of paints were then left there as I walked out.

Hell, I know I can scratchbuild them out of card for about $6 each (I've just made 4 hulls for my Manticore, Griffin, Basilisk and Hydra tanks).

My GW's Redshirts shift constantly - as in my store can barely keep them for more than a few months at a time, year tops.

Sometimes, they're all veterans and they basically treat you as though you're a competent hobbyist: They make earnest recommendations for stuff you actually own (You've been having trouble with Animosity in your Orc list? Did you think about a Black Orc Big Boss to mitigate it some?), they don't try to push products down your throat ("That'll be all? Okay then," instead of "That'll be all? You don't want to pre-order anything? You sure you don't need paints? You sure you don't need glue? No primer? Don't need another box of this?"), aren't afraid to not push the product for Jimmy Five Year Old, etcetera.

Other times... they're the reverse. They try to push anything that's on pre-order to someone, they ask you about a dozen products when you went to the register with a bolt thrower, they'll have no trouble trying to get a five year old (and their parents) to play demo games to try selling them a box, etcetera.

Right now, although it's been about a month since I've seen my GW, it's a mix. One of the staffers is notably less-than-amused by GW's current antics. Another of the staffers, they're - while not of the product shoving variety - of the "Jimmy knows how to play" group. Recently, as in just the last two years, this is a major shift from what was the first group. The only advantage I can give is that the new management (which is encouraging the latter form of RS behavior) is also encouraging (see: Actually allowing) in-store tournaments by customers, letting people play the specialist games (for about five years there was only Mordheim / BFG / Necropolis on Veteran's Night, if given the nod by management ahead of time), and is starting to crack down (if barely) on the little kids to the point that they're no longer allowed to spew paint all over the counter, leave half-empty drinks leaking inside the table tins, etcetera.

Zoned wrote:I love all you armchair store owners. I suppose if you ran a store your plan for your staff would be:

1) Let the customers wander around.
2) Don't talk to them.
3) Don't try to help them find things.
4) Don't ask about their involvement in the hobby.
5) Don't ask them if they need hobby supplies.
6) Don't talk about new releases.
7) Don't tell them about the events the shop is running.

That's a sure fire way to keep the store in business.

Like harrassing a customer with a 10-part script is going to pack them in...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:Okay.

Let's put this simple.

There's "polite", where you say "No thanks, I'm here for something specific. But I'll give you a holler if I need any help." and then there's "No it's cool, I'm just browsing."

The second is considered an invitation to try to get you interested into something. The first says "No, I'll ask you if I need help."
See the difference?

If I say "No thanks, I'm just browsing," it means 'I don't need your help, I'm just browsing!' There is no other meaning to be read into it, I say what I mean! You can take your interpretations to the philosophers, I'm just a simple forge-god.

Continuing to pester me beyond that is still pestering me. I'm sorry if your boss is a prick who makes you read a script, but could you please go read it to someone else?

Zoned wrote:I love all you armchair store owners. I suppose if you ran a store your plan for your staff would be:

1) Let the customers wander around.
2) Don't talk to them.
3) Don't try to help them find things.
4) Don't ask about their involvement in the hobby.
5) Don't ask them if they need hobby supplies.
6) Don't talk about new releases.
7) Don't tell them about the events the shop is running.

That's a sure fire way to keep the store in business.

Or , this is what also happens:

1) Stalk the customer around.
2) Talk to them about things that are in no way related to what they went to the store for
3) Help them find things , that they werent looking for
4) Ask them about their involvement in the hobby , a nice little chat , ending with if they want to start a new space marine army
5) Ask them if they need hobby supplies , if they answer no , ask them if they want to subscribe to White Dwarf ( GW advertisement pamphlet? )
6) Nice little chat about new releases , and how EVERYONE must also love it as much as they do because its just so cool .
8) I appreciate them reminding the events. ^-^v

Manchu wrote:Why would a business push sales tactics that are ineffective?

Because the corporate executives, who have never worked retail in their lives, think those sales tactics are effective.

If you've ever worked retail, at some point you've had to deal with some stupid thing the execs think is a great idea, but that they obviously never bothered to ask someone who works in retail about because all it does is make your job harder for no beneficial effect.

It's hard to believe that these corporate executives are either disinterested in or unaware of what goes on at the retail location. It's also hard to believe that there would be no mechanism in place to judge whether or not the sales training is or is not effective.

Kanluwen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

If you avoid going to a shop because of human interaction, seek therapy.

Im not going to fall for that flame bait . I know you are smarter than that , and i have never said not going to GW = avoiding human interaction.

It's not flame bait. If you're being put off by the fact that, God help you, the staff are interacting with you...there's something wrong.

There is a world of difference between interacting... and sticking their nose in where I don't want it.

I am a fully functional person. I can walk, talk, read text, my vision is (corrected to) 20/20, and I can easily lift any amount of weight that I might be required to lift while shopping at a FLGS. I have yet to see a FLGS that is so big and/or crowded that I cannot glance arond and see roughly where what I am looking for would be. I do not need someone to guide me around and show me the various things I might want and read boxes for me and generally hold my hand. And I get actively resentful when someone treats me like I do need just that.

Saying hello, how ya doin', can I help you find anything is de rigeur and I appreciate that they noticed me come in. If I need help, I will ask. If I don't, I will tell them I am 'just browsing,' or, 'just here to pick up XXXXX.' From that, they should be able to get the hint that I don't need help... much less them coming over and trying high-pressure used-car-sales tactics on me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:Of course he didn't count the numbers of people that didn't go to the store because they were "turned off by the GW sales pitch".
Because those people...gasp...wouldn't be interested in the hobby anyways. I mean really. Where do you come up with these scenarios?

Ahh.... I play WFB. so I wouldn't say I "wouldn't be interested in the hobby anyways." And the sales pitch (the one the redshirts are supposedly required to go through) woud certainly leave me 'turned off.'

Point has been addressed (by LordHat, last page): GW does not assume you actually know exactly what you want/need or that you are entirely content to spend tons of money on toys. This is the fatal assumption of most FLGS's. As an adult gamer, you may know what you want and don't want (still, this is not always a safe assumption from the sales point of view) but how many younger gamers, new gamers, spouses/parents/girl or boyfriends of gamers, etc know these things. Such a person might be completely out of their depth at the FLGS but GW makes sure they have a redshirt ready to work with them.

Kanluwen wrote:If they're doing it, "everytime you go in there" then TELL THEM TO KNOCK IT OFF.

Jesus, how complicated is this?

Do I need to come up with some kind of magical anti-Redshirt Formula?

They are not mind-readers. They are average human beings(more often than not--under 18 also), at a minimum wage job and doing something that they're told to do. They do not know they are doing wrong unless you tell them.

One would think that the first time you told the guy "No thanks, I'm not interested in Space Marines," he'd figure that out on his own.

But then, this particular redshirt sounds particularly clueless to me.

Which particular redshirt?

Vulcan wrote:Like harrassing a customer with a 10-part script is going to pack them in...

It's not intended to 'pack them in'... it's intended to squeeze the most cash possible out of those people in their target market who do walk in.

If I say "No thanks, I'm just browsing," it means 'I don't need your help, I'm just browsing!'

Which is fine, in another store. In a store that is running on the hard-sell principle, that's not an acceptable answer. If you're left to your own devices, you're not being persuaded to buy the latest hotness.


The simple fact is that, regardless of what you or I personally may think of it, the hard sell works. If it didn't, you would never be bothered by telemarketers wanting to save you money on your phone bill, or people knocking on your door wanting to sell you insulation for your house.

Yes, it's annoying to those outside the target market. But since those people are outside the target, their opinion is insignificant anyway.

Of course, that can just as easily go all pear-shaped, if the company completely mis-judges the buying power of their target market, or generates enough ill-will amongst everyone else for it to carry over to their chosen customers...

Lordhat wrote:

Manchu wrote:Why would a business push sales tactics that are ineffective?

Because they're not. I can tell you from personal experience that sales go up dramatically when every customer who walks through the door is engaged by an employee upon entering the store. Yes, some people get annoyed by this, and will likely not buy anything, but that number is significantly smaller than the number of "no sales" that occur when potential customers are allowed to 'just browse', especially if they're new to the hobby. The price tag is a significant deterrent to getting into a wargame, and unless there's somebody there to tell the potential player/parent exactly what the benefits are, most people will not pay the x amount of (dollars, pounds, etc.) for 'plastic toys'.

On the other hand, there is a world of difference between being 'engaged by an employee upon entering the store' - "Hello, can I help you find something?" - and being subjected to the corporation's 10-part sales speech the salesperson is required to go through before he can acknowledge that I don't need his help.

Or worse, his ham-handed attempts to sell me something I've already told him I do not want.

insaniak wrote:

Vulcan wrote:Like harrassing a customer with a 10-part script is going to pack them in...

It's not intended to 'pack them in'... it's intended to squeeze the most cash possible out of those people in their target market who do walk in.

Yes , thats where the experienced sales person comes in. Because newbie staff are awful at this , and its really really painful / obvious to be in such attempt of a "chat"

See if this sounds familiar:
Sup , you are looking sexy! , can i buy you a drink? no? Want to have a nice chat in my car? i have these awesome new xxxxxxxx speakers
*5 mins later.
Wana ****?

Now suddenly if i get offended , im either having social problems or i need therapy.

Since apparently Vulcan is taking the time to quote, point by point, a series that was done to death:

1) GW's staff, as has been noted, is told to act a certain way. The less creative/socially adept the staffmembers tend to be the ones who are the "nightmare stories". They're the kinds who will, even to someone who they know(at times--ESPECIALLY if they know the person and a manager is watching) perform the spiel and try to sell off the most expensive new shiny thing.
Then you have the staff members who, depending on how often you've come into the store, may greet you by name or show you something exclusively for YOUR army. That's called "establishing a rapport". It involves you AND the employee in question interacting, like decent human beings or even friends. Rather than getting into a huff and storming out because you felt pressured. I'd also like to point out that, with the first set of employees(the less creative/socially adept ones)--that is where you will find the biggest amount of confusion with the "No thank you, I'm just browsing". They view that was a come on to explain something that just came in, especially if you've never been in the store or they don't know you.

2) Obviously you didn't bother reading the entire thread. The second part of your first quote is referring to a FLGS that just opened up. He employed a very close relation to the "high-pressure, constant surveillance" sales method. Because y'know, it's a brand new store and he doesn't know the customers. Add in the fact that it opened on a busy weekend, and he wanted to make it clear that he and his staff would drop whatever they were doing just to chat with a new face.
The following week, he had altered from those tactics to the more friendly, laid-back tactics that are common in FLGSes. But in the time I was in that store, he immediately swapped to the "GW" methodology to greet new customers who noticed the "GRAND OPENING!" sign from the week before. And what do you know?
Those people, who actually had never heard of Warhammer, or Flames of War?
They were intrigued enough to purchase starter sets of each game that caught their attention! Gasp. It's almost as if approaching the customer, explaining to them the ideas behind the games, the cost v. reward( because let's face it. there IS a series of cost v. reward, in that your start-up costs CAN be a one time thing...but in most cases, reward can continue for years unabated, or picked up whenever you have free time.)

3) And again, back to the "clueless redshirt" conundrum. If he doesn't know you, doesn't know your armies, your playstyles, or is one of the more overly pushy redshirts?
He's going to try to sell you something. Much like his job(salesperson) describes him as.

lol @ Luna; this the female perspective, is it?

Manchu wrote:lol @ Luna; this the female perspective, is it?

Ok , then switch the scenario with this:

Hi neighbor! nice to see you move to this new house of yours , why dont i treat your family to a nice dinner this weekend?
*2 hours of pleasant dinner + some chat .

So , i sell Life Insurance , how about you head over my house and we see what we can hook you up with?

I guarantee you that there will be an awkward silence for abit, + no more dinner again in the future.

In other words , when the so called "chat" are so awfully transparent , its easier to call it " motives "

Manchu wrote:It's hard to believe that these corporate executives are either disinterested in or unaware of what goes on at the retail location. It's also hard to believe that there would be no mechanism in place to judge whether or not the sales training is or is not effective.

I don't know about GW in particular, but in my long and decidedly non-glorious career in customer service and retail (over 20 years now, sigh), no retail business I've worked with has such a mechanism in place that actually works.

I've worked in places that give a phone number for a customer computer survey. These are almost always compromised by corporate insisting that it is pass-fail, either you score 100% or it counts as a 0%. Scorea 99% on a survey? Tough, it still gets averaged as a 0% because it wasn't perfect.

I've worked in places with a posted comment line phone number. This line never leads to anyone in the company, it always leads to some sort of call center. The executives just get summaries.

I worked in one place with a computer survey that went to the voice-mail of the store manager. Which was great, because it kept the corporate executives off our back, but... still, no effective feedback to the execs.

Secret shoppers can work. But it's worth noting that the typical secret shopper does not work retail. They have another job, and secret shop for a little extra cash on the side. And since they have no retail experience, they really have no clue what is actually going on. They don't get that if the employee looks a little frazzled or stressed, it was likely because they just had to deal with a jerk customer trying to get something (usually something expensive) for nothing, and they are... well, frazzled or stressed out. All the unskilled secret shopper sees is 'employee looked dishelveled, acted distracted.'

Random inspections are right out. Because ineveitably, sooner or later, the inspector (who is always a corporate executive, not an experienced retail worker) comes in at exactly the wrong time - right after a HUGE sales rush, with the place in shambles because you just did 200% of expected sales (which means you were grossly understaffed), everyone is on a short fuse, and here this suit comes in and starts complaining about how the place is a mess and no one is smiling! F'ing clueless jerk, if you'd been her 20 minutes ago you'd understand why! Or maybe if you'd go look at the sales figures for the past hour or two before you start in on us...

Sorry, guys, I just pushed my own button there.

Long and short: No. Corps don't know what works and what doesn't. Because they don't do retail, they do paperwork.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:Which particular redshirt?

The one who is supposed to have pushed a Space Marine Drop Pod at an Eldar player no less than 5 separate times!

Manchu wrote:It's hard to believe that these corporate executives are either disinterested in or unaware of what goes on at the retail location. It's also hard to believe that there would be no mechanism in place to judge whether or not the sales training is or is not effective.

There is a certain amount of political nonsense that goes on behind the scenes in any big business. Business decisions can very easily be made because someone in favour came up with it and nobody pointed out the obvious flaws because to do so would make them unpopular.

Back on the Kmart example, we had a system in place for the department managers to organise their rosters whereby some genius at head office had calculated the length of time it should take on average for a staff member to perform a given task. Laying a shelf edge price label, for example, should take on average 30 seconds (conveniently ignoring of course the time taken to actually walk to the appropriate aisle and find the item in question, which was generally longer than it should be due to most of the work being done by casual Uni students with no real knowledge of the store's product range).

In theory, managers were supposed to take their budgeted staff hours and break them down according to this schedule, alloting a specific amount of time to each task as appropriate.

In practice, managers filled out the schedule to use up their alloted hours in a way that looked like the important things were being covered as well as possible and filed it as required, and then completely ignored it for the useless waste of time that it was. But nobody ever said a bad word about the system to anyone from head office despite its very obvious flaws, because to do so would have been career suicide.

Of course, the other side of that is that often companies' higher-ups make decisions that seem ludicrous to the general staff, that actually make a great deal more sense when you understand the wider picture at the company level...

Kanluwen wrote:Since apparently Vulcan is taking the time to quote, point by point, a series that was done to death:

....

2) Obviously you didn't bother reading the entire thread.

Interesting. I'm responding to things point by point, but I haven't bothered to read the whole thread. Which is it, Kanluwen?

Vulcan wrote:They don't get that if the employee looks a little frazzled or stressed, it was likely because they just had to deal with a jerk customer trying to get something (usually something expensive) for nothing, and they are... well, frazzled or stressed out. All the unskilled secret shopper sees is 'employee looked dishelveled, acted distracted.'

To be fair, it's not the secret shopper's job to 'get that'... What they see is what they are supposed to report. If an employee is looking frazzled and stressed out on the sales floor due to dealing with a problem customer, they need more training in dealing with problem customers.

By all means go out back and have a cry, or a scream, or throw some boxes around... whatever lets off some steam. But if it's affecting your service face, then that's something that needs to be fixed.

Random inspections are right out.

I had actually almost forgotten that little bt of foolishness... Always getting prior warning of 'surprise' inspections by area managers, so that the store could be made more presentable.

@Luna: Okay, but let's further contextualize both examples. With the pick-up line, what if the girl in question has gone into a singles bar? With the life insurance, what if the person has gone into an insurance agent's office? The thing is that redshirts aren't luring you into a sales pitch. You walked into the store. The sales pitch can't be much of a surprise.

@Vulcan:

insaniak wrote:Of course, the other side of that is that often companies' higher-ups make decisions that seem ludicrous to the general staff, that actually make a great deal more sense when you understand the wider picture at the company level...

Company is making a profit. The hard sell is effective. Whether it is the very most effective method is not the point. Whether it seems effective on the ground level, especially to someone who is annoyed by it, is also beside the point.

insaniak wrote:

Vulcan wrote:They don't get that if the employee looks a little frazzled or stressed, it was likely because they just had to deal with a jerk customer trying to get something (usually something expensive) for nothing, and they are... well, frazzled or stressed out. All the unskilled secret shopper sees is 'employee looked dishelveled, acted distracted.'

To be fair, it's not the secret shopper's job to 'get that'... What they see is what they are supposed to report. If an employee is looking frazzled and stressed out on the sales floor due to dealing with a problem customer, they need more training in dealing with problem customers.

By all means go out back and have a cry, or a scream, or throw some boxes around... whatever lets off some steam. But if it's affecting your service face, then that's something that needs to be fixed.

I'm curious. How long have you worked retail?

In the places I've been, if you are scheduled to work, and you are on the clock, you are expected to be out there to deal with the customers. Not out back having a cry, or a scream, or throwing boxes arond, out there dealing with customers.

Added to which... if you're not out there, that means there's a hole in the store's coverage... which will also be reported by the secret shopper. "Staff slow to respond," that sorta thing.

Random inspections are right out.

I had actually almost forgotten that little bt of foolishness... Always getting prior warning of 'surprise' inspections by area managers, so that the store could be made more presentable.

Manchu wrote:@Luna: Okay, but let's further contextualize both examples. With the pick-up line, what if the girl in question has gone into a singles bar? With the life insurance, what if the person has gone into an insurance agent's office? The thing is that redshirts aren't luring you into a sales pitch. You walked into the store. The sales pitch can't be much of a surprise.

Yes , thats why i mentioned experienced vs newbie staff makes a difference. Especially when trying to push unrelated / unwanted product.

Manchu wrote:@Vulcan:

insaniak wrote:Of course, the other side of that is that often companies' higher-ups make decisions that seem ludicrous to the general staff, that actually make a great deal more sense when you understand the wider picture at the company level...

Company is making a profit. The hard sell is effective. Whether it is the very most effective method is not the point. Whether it seems effective on the ground level, especially to someone who is annoyed by it, is also beside the point.

The company is making a profit. Heck, it's making a profit off me, because I do buy WFB minis. I buy them online, or from my non-GW FLGS.

The local GW store, on the other hand (if there was one, and they indulged in this sort of nonsense), is not profiting off me because I'm not shopping there. I have other options to get what I want, and I will take them rather than deal with a redshirt harassing me.

So from the company standpoint it may not matter. But from a store standpoint, if they want to see a piece of my money, they had better not indulge in used-car-sales tactics, because I don't stand for that sort of stuff even when I'm shopping for a used car, much less for a hobby.

@Luna: I don't follow. I mean, I get that you are referring to the sense of awkwardness that an inexperienced salesperson might convey but I still think it's not equivalent to getting ambushed by your neighbor who happens to be an insurance salesperson. Again, you went to the store. Unless that store happens to be the unFLGS, you should expect someone to attempt to sell you something. At that point, this thread comes down to personal experience. Either you've had redshirts who back off when you say "I'll let you know if I have any questions" or you've had the heedless "you play eldar? how about a drop pod?" ones. I just want to reiterate that we shouldn't be confusing the hard sell technique with the ineffective salesperson. As kanluwen has pointed out numerous times, the structured hard sell technique is in part meant to make up for the lack of experience and/or initiative of the salesperson.

@Vulcan: As has also been noted before (by insaniak), they are not totally interested in your money especially if you buy from them via some other venue. If it works for nine moms and not for one adult gamer, the adult gamer doesn't take precedence.

Vulcan wrote:I'm curious. How long have you worked retail?

About 20 years. I grew up in a small family business, and moved out into the wider world of retail after leaving school, what, 16 years ago...

In the places I've been, if you are scheduled to work, and you are on the clock, you are expected to be out there to deal with the customers. Not out back having a cry, or a scream, or throwing boxes arond, out there dealing with customers.

If you're unable to present a professional manner to the customers, you're better off taking a break and getting your stuff together than flopping about like a fish on a hook for the rest of your shift.

Having a slight delay in service for a customer or two is preferable to having bad service for the rest of the day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vulcan wrote:But from a store standpoint, if they want to see a piece of my money,...

They don't. If you're not impressionable enough to be susceptible to their sales tactics, you're not in their target market.

IMO life insurence is a bad comparison. When you go into get insurence you probably have no idea (maybe you do) of what your aiming for. And even if you do they will try to get you hooked on better "deals"

Here we are walking into a store most of the time knowing full well what we want. As I think Luna stated above (although Im wording it difference) if we go to get insurence and they offer us something that has nothing to do with insurence... ummm? However we know are army, we know what we want, they arent trying to get us better "deals" They are only trying to get us to buy stuff we have no intention of buying... even after we tell them waht we want.

@Buttlerthepug: I wouldn't be surprised if an insurance agent asked me if I was also interested in home insurance in conjunction with a pitch for life insurance. I'm also not surprised when a redshirt asks me if I am interested in the newest model even though he knows I don't play that army. TBH, he's usually dead-on: I am interested in that newest model at some level, even if I have no current plans to buy it. By reminding me of it when I have my wallet out, however, that redshirt just made the chances of me buying it go up quite a bit.

I guess you weren't tempted by a Valkyrie recently?

Anyway, this is similar to why they have candy and magazines at the check out lines.

No I have not been tempted to by a Valkyrie. And I can understand them trying to interest us in a new project. But when it becomes a lecture/hassel... no...

Not even yesterday Im buying Devlan Mud... all of a sudden I need Ork stuff. I tell them Im good, Ive got my Green tide done for now, and Im also broke.

But wait, orks arent good unless they are mechanized and wheres your money at man?

Seriously? Im buying paint, Ive told you I dont need any more ork stuff currently. Ive got what I wanted etc etc... just leave it and stop badgering me.

Funny. Just yesterday I went to a Hobbytown, USA, location. They keep their GW stuff behind in a glass case on a wall. I found that most of their GW stuff has gone (more LotR stuff than anything else!), replaced by tons of Italieri HO British troops in pith helmets and Korean archers. No one spoke to me when I stepped in, while I stood looking through the glass at the meager selection, while I looked around for a salesperson to assist me, and finally not even as walked out of the store in utter disgust. In the past, I have waited patiently to get someone's attention and even seen the manager (who is himself rather dismissive so this is pot and kettle) scold employees who have been ignoring me/chatting it up with each other rather than doing their jobs.

The redshirts, by comparison, are a breath of fresh air.

Manchu wrote:@Luna: I don't follow. I mean, I get that you are referring to the sense of awkwardness that an inexperienced salesperson might convey but I still think it's not equivalent to getting ambushed by your neighbor who happens to be an insurance salesperson. Again, you went to the store. Unless that store happens to be the unFLGS, you should expect someone to attempt to sell you something. At that point, this thread comes down to personal experience. Either you've had redshirts who back off when you say "I'll let you know if I have any questions" or you've had the heedless "you play eldar? how about a drop pod?" ones. I just want to reiterate that we shouldn't be confusing the hard sell technique with the ineffective salesperson. As kanluwen has pointed out numerous times, the structured hard sell technique is in part meant to make up for the lack of experience and/or initiative of the salesperson.

And i have said numerous time , hard sales technique or not , an experienced sales staff can still make the experience Ok.
Its up to GW to figure out whether their sales staff is qualified to carry out what he is supposed to push , and whether he is deemed capable of doing so or not.

Let me say this again so you dont have to stalk me with it.
We walk in the store knowing they are trying to sell things.
But there is a difference between comply with what "I" want
instead of of them trying to sell me what "they" think " I " should buy.

. . . ok?

LunaHound wrote:Let me say this again so you dont have to stalk me with it.
We walk in the store knowing they are trying to sell things.
But there is a difference between comply with what "I" want
instead of of them trying to sell me what "they" think " I " should buy.

What a weird and insulting way to put something . . .

Manchu wrote:Funny. Just yesterday I went to a Hobbytown, USA, location. They keep their GW stuff behind in a glass case on a wall. I found that most of their GW stuff has gone (more LotR stuff than anything else!), replaced by tons of Italieri HO British troops in pith helmets and Korean archers. No one spoke to me when I stepped in, while I stood looking through the glass at the meager selection, while I looked around for a salesperson to assist me, and finally not even as walked out of the store in utter disgust. In the past, I have waited patiently to get someone's attention and even seen the manager (who is himself rather dismissive so this is pot and kettle) scold employees who have been ignoring me/chatting it up with each other rather than doing their jobs.

The redshirts, by comparison, are a breath of fresh air.

You said it and said it well. While a few employees at GW may not be able to temper their pitch to the individual customer, as a whole they provide good service. A friend of mine lives in the Richmond, Virginia area where they lost their GW store last year when GW decided to close it. Ever since he's been stuck going to independent stores that don't understand the hobby, don't order enough stock when new releases come out, lock it up behind glass where they lose that "pick it up and fall in love with it" impulse buying that is part of our hobby. GW stores by and large are clean, well lit, neat and well run by friendly, helpful people and I'm glad to have them around. Some stores have better atmosphere and better employees than others, but in general I am glad to see they are there. I'd hate to think where our hobby would be if they weren't there.

Manchu wrote:. . . ok?

LunaHound wrote:Let me say this again so you dont have to stalk me with it.
We walk in the store knowing they are trying to sell things.
But there is a difference between comply with what "I" want
instead of of them trying to sell me what "they" think " I " should buy.

What a weird and insulting way to put something . . .

Because im already done discussing that part with him last night.
And i dont know what you are asking.

And even weirder , you were asking discussing claymore with me in PM ,
i have no interest in this thread atm.

Is it so insulting still?

Look , we all know GW is a company and they want profit which is expected.
But they can either make money from us , with us happy about it because we feel they are atleast helpful + trying to sell things we can use. Hence we would feel they are there for us the customers.
Or they can keep on just bluntly trying to push none related products on us through a bad transparent convo. Hence , it feels that we are there for them to feed their profit .

I have to say I went into a GW store (Lakeside) on Sunday for the first time in many years.

Surprisingly no one hassled me or greeted me for that matter! [Kirby: "Have the manager vanish!"]

I was able to get to the counter unmolested in an otherwise fully staffed store, but there were plenty of other customers. I requested my desired purchase [mega paint set - oh the shame!], which was otherwise unavailable on the tinternet after my regular online retailer let me down [make me pay full price will you, damm you Maelstrom!].

They didn't have it but he emailed all of the other stores in the country to see if anyone else had one. Within an hour they had phoned me to say one had been located and was being sent over. A pretty good experience of a Red [Blue] shirt me thinks.

I should say at 6'4" and sporting a black eye on the day probably made me a little less than approachable, but I don't remember ever really getting any more that a "Hello, can I help you?" sales pitch at GW in the last 20 years.

For the most part I'm sure there are pretty cool employees all over the place but as with anything you will get TFG popping up from time to time. There is a quote that I can't quite remember about good experiences creating X word of mouth but bad ones creating XX, just imagine that I had posted that here.

Sorry that doesn’t really add to the last 5 pages of faux drama but I thought I would mark my re-entering a GW store with a commemorative post on the subject!

One of the local GW shops near me has learned not to hassle me anymore as each time they did the following time I went in was with one of the guys I help look after who loves people talking to him (6' loud and inyour face all the time, and loves repeating himself!). Keeps the staff busy as I browse in peace...
Mick

I think the way the Redshirts are trained is great for dealing with Mammies and so on. Whenever my ex girlfriend used to go in to buy me a christmas present or whatever, she found the staff really helpful, and I always ended up getting something decent, even though all she could say is "he collects the green angry looking guys, he has a lot of them and they have square bottom bits.". So in that sense, the redshirts are fantastic at their jobs.

It bugs me slightly when I get harried about something, but the ones that do that are a tiny minority. I'm uncomfortable with being impolite to people in general, so I tend to quietly bear it. I prefer to shop in places where that doesn't happen, like the local independant games shop. The staff in there are much more laid back and get a lot more of the customers like myself who prefer that style. So it's different strokes for different folks. The worst experiences I've had have actually been from independant stockists though I must say- the GW staff are at least always friendly, some of the indie guys have been really rude to me in the past. Not the Gamers World guys, for any Dubliner reading this. Those guys are really sound.

So yeah, the laid back approach works fantastically for people who know what they're about, the other one works really well for people who don't. Considering GW is the intro for most people to wargaming, they adopt the strategy that works best with that demographic. Indy shops generally attract the veteran players so they take the more relaxed approach, because it works for them.

One other point to consider is that the staff must keep an eye on everyone in the shop to ensure no-one is shoplifting. To the right buyer, the stuff is high value, and it's small and easy to conceal. The nature of the shops means it's actually fairly easy to nick something if you were any good at it, and they don't employ security gaurds.

Lukus83 wrote:The last time I went to a GW store all I had from the staff there was a few questions as to what I collected and if I needed any advice on what to get. I politely said no and we then just had a chat about 40k in general...

Exactly. I've never had all that. The worst I had was when one asked if I were looking for a present for my grandkids...

One other point to consider is that the staff must keep an eye on everyone in the shop to ensure no-one is shoplifting. To the right buyer, the stuff is high value, and it's small and easy to conceal. The nature of the shops means it's actually fairly easy to nick something if you were any good at it, and they don't employ security gaurds (ed.-guards).

Absolutely true, especially in small shops where it's "manager plus one" and there's often only one person on duty, it can be difficult for staff to ensure nothing is amiss. I've seen people nicked twice at our local Battle Bunker for theft. It's not pretty, though the staff did their best to make it as inconspicuous as possible. Both times it was minors and parents had to be called. GW always prosecutes to deter others.

I worked on a games workshop store for 9 months and at that point had worked in retail for 4 years and to honest i really enjoyed the job there were parts i didn't enjoy (the constant cleaning of cabinets for one) the part I enjoyed the most was talking to people about their hobby (I say their hobby as everyone has a different idea about it painting sculpting playing I even had one guy who just loved to build terrain only brought skeles and zombies) went it came to "selling" all i did was ask them "what army they had" or "do you play or collect" then depending on the answer I would show them different things and I would always suggest they get their army playable before spending money and not being able to use it. I got on with pretty much all the customers they would pop in and say hi on there lunch breaks or or come and have a chat about something Its the customers that made my time there worthwhile

Scragglefoot

Meh, the ones local aren't that bad. When you just start out, they can be fairly irksome, but once you go into the store a lot and they grow to know you they're preety cool.

It is fun to mes with their mind's sometimes: Me: "Hey, you got the new fortress of Redemption in?"
Red (well, blue in lil' old England)shirt: "Oh, yeah. Cool ain't it? It's over here."
Me: "What is?"
Blueshirt: "......The, Fortress of Redemption? You just said you wanted it."
Me: "Wanted what?"
Blueshirt: "THE FORTRESS!!"
Me: "Oh, yeah. So do you have it in?"
Blueshirt: "I just said, yes."
Me: "Yes what?"
*Blueshirt walks away with a confused look on his face *

Frazzled wrote:Exactly. I've never had all that. The worst I had was when one asked if I were looking for a present for my grandkids...

Did you hit him, right then, right there?

No, Frazz forgot where he was and flashed back to his Mammoth hunting years.

Great fun was had by all!

Kanluwen wrote:No, Frazz forgot where he was and flashed back to his Mammoth hunting years.

Great fun was had by all!

It doesn't help that I'm usually carrying around a few stone tipped throwing spears, just in case (call me a traditionalist-mammoth will shine again!). have a flashback and the giant plastic marine fails his neanderthal close combat weapon save...

And this is why Frazzled is one of the most fun Mods.

But yeah.
Redshirts aren't that bad. They just have to be broken in and trained well. Like any good customer service business.

Frazzled wrote:
Exactly. I've never had all that. The worst I had was when one asked if I were looking for a present for my grandkids...

I confess to making similar assumptions throughout my retail years. I found that, particularly at Dillard's or the comic/nerd store I worked at, if I could "guess" a person, they would listen to everything I had to say after. I was only wrong a couple of times. When you see a hot, confused-looking chick standing a good distance away form the mini's section with a blank expression it's a pretty easy guess though :p

Frazzled wrote:
It doesn't help that I'm usually carrying around a few stone tipped throwing spears, just in case (call me a traditionalist-mammoth will shine again!). have a flashback and the giant plastic marine fails his neanderthal close combat weapon save...

Still a fan of Stone tipped spears I see ? I prefer Iron mysef, but to each his own !

There used to be a few great guys at GW Hornsby over here in Australia - I used to come in each week to do some painting during my lunch hour for my Bretonnians. The guys were really cool about it all, helpful, without being too pushy. I used to buy something each month to work on and make them some money etc, and the service I received there was great - one of the reasons I'm such a fan of the GW storefront. But I have met some real PITA's over time as well, so I can relate to some of the stories here - I guess YMMV as far as redshirts (or black/blue/rainbow shirts) go

Crap redshirt (or greenshirt in this instance) experience of the day. Had to wait a good five minutes to get served at the till today. One was trying to explain to a pair of old dears what to get for their grandchild and the other who had at least caught my eye, was stuck in a conversation with a French guy about paints.

Hey Greenshirt! Ignore the frog (apologies if that is considered racism, but it's what I was thinking) and serve the guy who actually wants to give you money

Manchu wrote:@Vulcan: As has also been noted before (by insaniak), they are not totally interested in your money especially if you buy from them via some other venue. If it works for nine moms and not for one adult gamer, the adult gamer doesn't take precedence.

Heh. Fair enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:

Vulcan wrote:In the places I've been, if you are scheduled to work, and you are on the clock, you are expected to be out there to deal with the customers. Not out back having a cry, or a scream, or throwing boxes arond, out there dealing with customers.

If you're unable to present a professional manner to the customers, you're better off taking a break and getting your stuff together than flopping about like a fish on a hook for the rest of your shift.

Having a slight delay in service for a customer or two is preferable to having bad service for the rest of the day.

I agree. The problem is, 99% of the management in retail don't.

Blueshirts?


Meh, I like 'em.

I never get hassled too much in any GW, and I think their attitude towards younger gamers is cool. But really, even if someone is giving you an ultra-hard sell - just tell them to jog on and they will 9 times out of 10.

Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
It doesn't help that I'm usually carrying around a few stone tipped throwing spears, just in case (call me a traditionalist-mammoth will shine again!). have a flashback and the giant plastic marine fails his neanderthal close combat weapon save...

Still a fan of Stone tipped spears I see ? I prefer Iron mysef, but to each his own !

Hey if stone tipped spears were good enough for dad, they're good enough for me!

Stone-tipped is better for home defence too.

Kanluwen wrote:But Vile...can you really expect to be remembered at what (essentially) is the fast food job of the hobby world?

That's the issue here. People seem to have problems with "not being remembered" or "hassled" at a corporate chain...but it's a minimum wage job, not a family business like your Sentry Box or Imperial Hobbies sound to be.

Hey, Kanluwen, sorry it took so long to get back to this... been a busy week and I've finally got a chance to get back on...

Anyway, to the topic at hand, I remember going into the first GW that opened up in Vancouver, BC, in 1991 (shortly before we moved north). In the few months we went there, we were recognized and dealt with quite nicely. The manager at the time always greeted me by first name, and took me downstairs in there Gastown store to show me the huge Mighty Empires map/campaign they were doing. When he found out we were moving, he offered (against company policy) to do mail orders for us, which he did right up to his removal...

Sadly, as you now point out, GWs have become a "fast food" chain. But even there, should you not try to get to know your customers, and adjust to the regulars accordingly. If you do, you become something more than "just a chain." Because quite frankly, I'll go to the place where I get treated politely on a regular basis. Despite the plethora of discount online web stores, Sentry Box gets most of my mail order business because of the way I've been treated. Imagine if GW could learn that idea...

-Vilegrimm

See, but therein you're dealing with a manager(potentially the most stable position in a GW franchise) rather than a redshirt/register monkey.

My whole point in that comment was that people seem to recognize that redshirts have a high turnover--but for some reason expect the outgoing redshirt to pass the word on to the new staff about their preferences.

They offered me coffee and a biscuit, the other day.
I only went in to keep warm, and look at grots.
Then I asked them if they'ed heard anything about all these C+d letters. Then I said people were getting fed up with GW and were boycotting their stuff.

dunno if I'll get coffee and biccies again

Kanluwen wrote:See, but therein you're dealing with a manager(potentially the most stable position in a GW franchise) rather than a redshirt/register monkey.

My whole point in that comment was that people seem to recognize that redshirts have a high turnover--but for some reason expect the outgoing redshirt to pass the word on to the new staff about their preferences.

See, I would find no problem with a new redshirt approaching me asking about preferences, etc. It's when the same person approaches me with the same pitch when I'm an obvious regular that would start to irk, and tell them politely to leave me alone, and I'll ask for help when I need some.

It's kind of like this... again from personal experience:

Last year, my wife and I happened to hit the "local" games store for the "worldwide" RPG day. As we were browsing the D&D books, the fellow manning the freebies table came over to us:
him: "Hello! Do either of you know someone who plays RPGs?"
me: "Yes, both of us do." (granted, we are both in our 40s, so look out of place for some folks)
him: "Well, what games do you play?"
me: "We've played D&D since 2nd edition, Deadlands, Hell on Earth, Paranoia, Noir, GURPS..."
him: "Well, you're my new best friends! Come look at this stuff!..."
At which point we went over to the table and he gave us a spiel on the product being handed out (and a lot of the product). Here was an (obviously) experienced seller who, while he didn't know us, politely got our attention and drew us into his pitch, which we enjoyed and came out of by buying more than we thought we would.

Compare with this:
About 4 years ago, while down in Abbotsford we went to the local games store there (Wiser's). We entered, said hello to the persons behind the till, and started browsing. I headed further into the store, and my wife picked up a box of Chaos Marines for me and went to pay. The young fellow behind the till rang the sale up, then brought out a "Welcome to the GW Hobby!" pamphlet and said to her:
him: "Here, I'll give you a pamphlet."
her: "No, thanks."
him: "But it's free."
her: "No thanks."
him: "But it will tell you all about the GW Hobby."
her: "I don't need it."
him: "It's no problem..."
her: "Look... my husband has an 18,000 pt. Chaos Marine army, and I have a 4,000 pt. Imperial Guard force."
him: "You're right. You don't need this."

At which point, after the sale was through, the young fellow took us to the back area to show off their gaming area, including a room you could reserve for gaming with your buddies. We chuckled about it afterwards (we're usually pretty laid back), but I can see how some people would become annoyed. Rather than approach and see if my wife played or not, he automatically assumed she knew nothing about the game. Of course, she has had more than one of these encounters before, but they're getting less and less.

So in the end, it should not matter if you're experienced or not. How you approach people makes a big difference, and a new redshirt can still do well enough if they gauge the reactions of their customer. When you think of it, where do the new Managers come from? I know in Vancouver, it was a redshirt that was promoted up the first time, so obviously they can learn something...

-Vilegrimm

See, in that second case I'd have just said "I already play, but thanks" and you save yourself some irritation

Yeah. Getting asked repeatedly, especially if you're a regular and the redshirts know you would probably get frustrating. As it is...I don't think it's one of those things really worth getting worked up over, either way.