Hey folks! I've been playing mechanized orks for quite some time now. I'm actually getting ready to retire the orks and move to Dark Eldar. I've never posted an army list for critique, but 4/5 of all my posting has been in the army list section, and I kind of suffer from "big fish in a little pond" problems...I'd love to go to a GT and see how I compare there, but that requires something in traveling distance.

In the meantime, I'm posting the list I run (1850) and the tactics I use with it in the hopes that you might tell me how you would play against it and defeat it. I stick to tournament play for the most part, so I'm looking for take-all-comers lists, not something built specifically to deal with me. My list changes a bit for point values (1750 vs 1850 vs 1500 etc) but the core of it remains the same.

My list:

HQ: Ghazghkull Thraka
HQ: Big Mek with a Kustom Force Field

Troop 1: Trukk Boyz, Nob + Powerklaw (18 - they're in a battlewagon with Ghazghkull)
Troop 2: Trukk Boyz, Nob + Powerklaw
Troop 3: Trukk Boyz, Nob + Powerklaw
Troop 4: Trukk Boyz, Nob + Powerklaw
Troop 5: Trukk Boyz, Nob + Powerklaw

Elite 1: Snikrot, Kommandos, 2 burnas
Elite 2: Burna Boyz

Fast Attack 1: Deffkopta with TL Rokkits

Heavy Support 1: Battlewagon (reinforced Ram or Deffrolla depending on where I'm playing and their house rules about deffrollas vs vehicles)
Heavy Support 2: Battlewagon (both battlewagons have a big shoota)

All trukks have reinforced rams to reroll the possibility of a for difficult terrain and boarding planks to provide mobile anti-tank (Nob getting 4x powerklaw attacks without disembarking)

Tactics: I keep my battlewagons out front to screen trukks in the rear. Burna boyz and KFF travel in one battlewagon, Ghazghkull and 18 boyz travel in another. I typically look for flanking opportunities and the ability to deny a portion of my enemy's firepower by deploying and moving up a flank while counting on my KFF to keep my vehicles rolling. In combat I rely on Ghazghkull and/or my burna boys to deal with nasty things that could mince my boys. Against heavily mechanized lists I don't disembark and use the boarding planks to cause damage.

All in all, you could sum up my army as a wrecking ball - with a 27-29" turn2 assault range on the Waaaugh! I'm capable of determining where the fight will happen, with who, and who I want involved in the charge. In most games, the turn I charge (and Waaaugh!) is the turn that decides the game. Snikrot finds a place to be useful, while the rest of my army smacks squarely into a piece of my enemy. I don't really have any shooting, just a massive ball of assault. I rely on targeting a piece of my enemy and throwing my entire army against it and killing it, so that the following turn, I've seriously wrecked a portion of my enemy.

How would you destroy me?

It's a tough list. My all-comers list would have a hard time cracking your list open. I use

2x tyrants with TL devourers with full bodyguard
1 brood of 8 warriors with TL devourers
1 brood of 8 warriors with deathspitters

2x sniperfexes with
2x zoanthropes

As many gaunts as I can get my hands on.

My only hope would be to try and slow you down as much as possible with my anti tank (even devourers work on trukks), then block off assaults with the gaunts to get another round of firing in before assaulting in with my heavies. So in conclusion I have an extremely unreliable way to take you out since it relies on screening the big boys at the back from your cc stuff at the front. I wouldn't be too worried about snikrot in this list...my tyrants and warriors could probably handle him, even if he took out a fex in the process.

At 1850, I run:
DP, WT, Wings
Termicide
Termicide
Termicide
10 CSM, 2 Melta, AC, PF, Rhino
10 CSM, 2 Flamer, AC, PF, Combi, Rhino
8 Zerk, AC, PF
8 Zerk, AC, PF
Land Raider, Extra Armor
Land Raider, Extra Armor

Go 1st if possible, but it's not the end of the world if I don't. I usually keep my stuff close together anyway, so no chance for you to isolate part of my army.

If you go 1st: Deploy so that you have a decent slog to get to me. Hide Rhinos/DP from scouting Koptas. DP attacks Koptas if close enough. Move 12" in a block to keep 2nd turn Waagh PKs off of me. You charge my transports and maybe get Snikky turn 2. Snikky can't do anything to full mech out of assault. Hit a termicide or 2 turn 2, hopefully pop the KFF wagon. Lascannons into trukks. Zerks into flamers, if they're out of transports. Melta CSM to try to pop Ghazzie's BW if he plank attacked. Flamer CSM to Snikrot. 2nd Zerks into Ghazzy's squad if out, DP (if alive) in support. Drop more termicide, kill more trukks. Basically, make you waste the charge on transports and counter.

If I go 1st: Don't move T1, pour Las into BWs or any trukk visible. Drop Termicide on BWs, hoping for an Immob+ (and I have +2 with Melta+Open topped), if they go down, Las into trukks. Then I pick the charges.

EDIT- BTW, loving the location change

And onto tactics...

I would be castled up. In a 2k point game I would have something like 72 gaunts ( brood of 12 with WoN) sitting in a huge, thick semi circle covering my MC's and warriors. The gaunts are also in medium sized squads (about 12-16 each)

Everything would move forward extremely slowly. VC's would be taking pot shots at battlewagons and with some luck I might take out 1. Devourers focus on stopping the trukks until they disgorge their contents into my gaunt wall. You should wipe the gaunts then I get a lot of shots at your stuff before plunging into assault with tyrants, deathspitter warriors, and would use remaining gaunts to tie up any squad that's just too ugy to face just yet.

Sexy stuff here dash. My mechdar would have trouble fondling this list. I think the one big weakness is a lack of true anti tank at range. I would exploit that weakness by running this army list, and out playing you.

HQ: Ghazghkull Thraka
HQ: Big Mek with a Kustom Force Field

Troop 1: Trukk Boyz, Nob + Powerklaw (18 - they're in a battlewagon with Ghazghkull)
Troop 2: Trukk Boyz, Nob + Powerklaw
Troop 3: Trukk Boyz, Nob + Powerklaw
Troop 4: Trukk Boyz, Nob + Powerklaw
Troop 5: Trukk Boyz, Nob + Powerklaw

Elite 1: Snikrot, Kommandos, 2 burnas
Elite 2: Burna Boyz

Fast Attack 1: Deffkopta with TL Rokkits

Heavy Support 1: Battlewagon (reinforced Ram or Deffrolla depending on where I'm playing and their house rules about deffrollas vs vehicles)
Heavy Support 2: Battlewagon (both battlewagons have a big shoota)

And so it becomes a netlist....

I don't think that anyone here expected anything less then a killer list from you, but this is really tough. Without completely tailoring an army to expoite yours, I'd say that your bigest problem would be an ultra mobile force with lots of anti tank, or an absolutly hoard army. My reasoning is that (for the ultra mobile force with lots of anti tank) they could destroy your transports then stay out of reach. And for the hoard, your trying to get into combat, so are they, since you are faster you will hit first, but then be dragged down through sheer volume. They would both need to be well played, but I think that that could bring your list down. Mabye.

despoiler52 wrote:I don't think that anyone here expected anything less then a killer list from you, but this is really tough. Without completely tailoring an army to expoite yours, I'd say that your bigest problem would be an ultra mobile force with lots of anti tank, or an absolutly hoard army. My reasoning is that (for the ultra mobile force with lots of anti tank) they could destroy your transports then stay out of reach. And for the hoard, your trying to get into combat, so are they, since you are faster you will hit first, but then be dragged down through sheer volume. They would both need to be well played, but I think that that could bring your list down. Mabye.

Im going to write up a serious comparison with the mechdar I ran last week. I think them (fast armies) or huge horde would be the biggest issues. Or, surprised nobody said this, LEAFBLOWER going first.

I'm sorry, but I must show my ignorance in saying that I have no idea what "LEAFBLOWER" is.

The IG list darkwynn won with at 'ardboyz.

Basically gobs and gobs of guns, hope to go first, and nuke the enemy into oblivion while in their deployment zone.

I like the idea, but it would be depressing if they ever got into CC.

It wasn't as one dimensional as Eidolon makes it out to be, but IMO he did get somewhat lucky at the finals (1st all three games, etc.) and that combined with skill practically wafted him through

Guard don't curl up and die these days if you get within 12", BTW.

No they don't curl up, they are cut in half.

The issue is you cant go from unit to unit with sweeping advance anymore. So you charge unit A, slaughter it, and get gunned down by units B and C

Yep, that and you open a Chimera. So? The unit shoots you again. No good guard player's ever going to voluntarily disembark against Orks.

Luckily you can do one of two things, the first is quite simple, have more then one unit, so attack many units at once, lets see B shoot at A's killers when they are also in CC. The second is that you attack with enogh units to kill the enemy in two phases, your turn goes by, then you finish them off in the enemies CC phase, then it's your turn again and you can continue your reign of terror.

How would I beat it?

DEMOLISHER CANNON. HURRR!

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:How would I beat it?

DEMOLISHER CANNON. HURRR!

YOU ARE N00B 250 GUARDSMEN AND 3 DEATHSTRIKES IS THE ONLY THING THAT COULD STOP THIS ARMY

HEADQUARTERS

Eldrad-210

Yriel-155

8 warlocks-237
2 embolden. 1 enhance, 4 singing spears

Wave serpent-110
Twin linked shuriken cannons, spirit stones.

ELITES

6 dire dragons-113
Exarch with crack shot,

Wave serpent-110
Twin linked shuriken cannons, spirit stones.


TROOPS

5 dire avengers-60

Wave serpent-145
Twin linked bright lances, spirit stones.

5 dire avengers-60

Wave serpent-145
Twin linked bright lances, spirit stones

5 dire avengers-60

Wave serpent-145
Twin linked bright lances, spirit stones

HEAVY SUPPORT

2 war walkers-120
All with scatlasers

3 war walkers-180
All with scatlasers

There is my list. I think it could do pretty well. At least put up a fighting chance. Im not gonna write a play by play of how I think it would go, as thats stupid and not feasible. So ill say what I think my list has on yours, and what I would need to struggle against.

Advantages.
Speed. I can move faster then you, along with the ability to reserve everything as a valid tactic.

Toughness. My basic troops are generally weaker, though the council will be very hard to deal with. My tanks though are much tougher and I have little to nothing to fear from range. While you have the KFF I could still rely on popping armor, you couldnt. This means I will generally be dictating where the battle is fought.

Death star unit-I have a big nasty unit that will kill most anything it gets its hands on. And your army is one of the worst for stopping it reaching your lines. No psychic defense and no ranged anti tank would mean this unit goes where it pleases.

More deployment options-Reserving everything being a big asset that I have. Along with multiple units that can outflank.

Better ranged-This is already explained.

Disadvantages
Weaker troops and less troops-5 avengers wont beat 10 boyz.

KFF-this is probably the single best item in the game. I have to forgo shooting to get 4+, you just get it.

Ghazghkull-This guy is a pain in the dick to fight against. Thats pretty simple. 6" waagh out of open topped transports, 2+ invuln and a slowed number of attacks means he will always be a threat.

I have to get out of my tanks and deal with stuff one way or the other. I think the number of things orks can put on the table would make this a very tough game one way or the other. There is no easy way to think my way through this game.

Eidolon wrote:The issue is you cant go from unit to unit with sweeping advance anymore. So you charge unit A, slaughter it, and get gunned down by units B and C

The best thing you can do is slaughter the unit on the charge and then consolidate into cover. Thats the best thing you can do to prevent this. Since you have so many units you might could simple try to tie up every squad that would shoot you in and ideal world.

I would like to play that list a lot as I have killed a lot of ork mech list with my Tau, but none that are all trucks and battlewagons ans most people dont have that many trucks and battle wagons. My strategy to be is to keep the Drones/piranhas and other vehicles in between me and the orks. With some good deployment and first turn I think I might get ya, but a lot of players say if they get turn preference they would win oh well. My list would be

Shas'el with missle pod and AFP
9 suits fire knives
8 pathfinders with devilfish, flechette disharger
6 and 6 fire warriors and a devilfish Flechette discharger
3 piranhas with flechette disharger
3 RailHeads with flechette and SMS.

I played a SM mech list that you might have trouble with. I beat him but if we would have gone a few more turns i dont think I would have won. Very good experience player. Sm is not my army So name and war gear might be different. Ill try to piece together list

2 Vindicators with battle cannons
landraider lass cannons and heavybolters with multi melta on top
4terminators and librarian inside TH,SS
think it was 3 rhinos with 1 vanguard with storm shields and 2 combat squad maybe assault.
3 dreadnoughts with assault cannons and CC
landspeeder with the missle launchers on it.

Those 2 battle cannons did a number on me even though i fineally got them, and all the auto cannons were rough on my units and light vehicles.

I actually believe that there isn't an all comers list out there, but that there are just really good players that make efficient armys that know how to increase a armys str to max and decrease its weekness as much as possible, and that is what makes it All comers and not just the list itself.

Still Dash I think you have a great list and anyone would be hard pressed to take it.

Pretty cool list dash, its true that there are lists that can outrun you and lists that can out shoot you, but a list that can outrun you while out-shooting you is nonexistent. Mech orks are hard to beat. I could try and spam 4 battlewagons, but at that point you have more troops than me (and boarding planks attack rear armor, so when you do hit me with a PK it's pretty much going to at the least glance)

starbomber109 wrote:but a list that can outrun you while out-shooting you is nonexistent.

I think I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. Mechdar and Dark Eldar scream to me as armies that can keep their distance and outshoot you at the same time. Whether that's enough for them to win the game is another story.

Gornall wrote:

starbomber109 wrote:but a list that can outrun you while out-shooting you is nonexistent.

I think I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. Mechdar and Dark Eldar scream to me as armies that can keep their distance and outshoot you at the same time. Whether that's enough for them to win the game is another story.

I agree with the OP and you that the more you play the game the more dark eldar look sexy. Just for that whole fast opentopped vehicles that can get some nice wargear, and pack some nice troops to shoot.

What I would love is an opentopped transport for tau. Now that would rock.

Dark Eldar and IG empirically give me the most trouble - there are SO MANY dark lances in the DE army and so many vehicles....I only have so many boarding planks and powerklaws. In fact, the reason I've started Dark Eldar is because Ghazghkull and a squad of 10 diversified nobs assaulted an Archon with a squad of Incubi....and a few rounds later.....Ghazghkull was dead. =p Thus began, "Holy smokes, there's something more beastly than Ghazghkull in close combat?" I play Tau and Orks and play them at opposite ends of the spectrum - static gunline with 100% firepower and mechanized assault with 100% CC. I'm aiming for a mix with Dark Eldar.

For DE: In my games against DE (against some seriously skilled players) I've managed to barely squeak out a win every time thus far. I have no illusions about putting them down hard, its been horrifyingly brutal battles.

I've played Leafblower, and what I think is an even more vicious IG mechanized list involving 13 Chimeras or something, and ridiculous amounts of melta and flamers - these have also been horrifying battles; both times the games were objective based, and I won both games by the narrowest of margins - having one nob out of a troop's choice left alive and holding an objective in one game...and aided by much luck against the Leafblower setup.

My 4+ cover saves did well to protect me, and I rushed up one flank so that the tanks on the other side couldn't range me. He rolled a squadron up to get into range for next turn and 2/3 of the tanks immobilized themselves (IE, wrecked) due to difficult terrain rolls.

Most armies I play to table - horde orks and genestealers....I have burnas, and two squads of trukk boys piling into 30 orks on foot with furious charge is enough to win the fight. Dark Eldar and mechanized IG....I'm not comfortable at all against them, and have simply been fortunate in my games so far...I don't have a ready answer for how to beat them with my army regularly (aside from trying to deny fire due to range, flanking, and getting into CC as fast as possible).

In fact, in addition to "how would you beat me" I'd welcome thoughts on how my list could beat raider spam and mechanized IG spam.

Strong mechanized armies are your achilles heel, unfortunately. Guard you can potentially deal with (moar power klawz!) due to low armor in CC. They're trouble for you for a whole different reason though - you can't get to the squishy back armor if everything you've got dies before you get there. Even when you do... you pop a chimera. So what? The guys inside are still more than able to pound your face next shooting phase. Relying on CC to pop mechanized troops is shaky. It's why orks, demons, and ESPECIALLY the current tyranids don't do so well against armies with lots-o-tanks.

The average mechanized ork list relies on one, crushing CC round to determine the outcome of the game. Mechanized armies take a minimum of 2 rounds to put some serious hurting on. That really is a case of scissors vs rock, unfortunately.

Now, what about high armor targets? It doesn't matter how strong a player you are if even if you can manage to lean your whooooole army on one tank, it's not enough. If a player is smart enough to keep his land raiders moving 6" or more if they're close enough to feasibly be charged, there's nothing you can do about it but get lucky.

For example, your boss gets 7 (I think?) attacks on the charge. If he needs 6s to hit that's 1.17 hits, .39 penetrating hits. Meaningful damage to a land raider is on a 4+, so that's about a 19% chance of doing some lasting damage, with the best tank popping unit in your army.

Not what you'd call ideal.

It would take about 5x as many hits to reach a 100% chance, sooo you've got to figure out how to generate 35 power klaw swings. set up a gazghkull cloning facility? lol

Fortunately, "LR spam" armies are often weak enough in the rest of the list that you can put pressure on the squishy parts and try to win by objective grab or KP denial. Unfortunately, this brings us back to the whole "trukks are bad" thing - it's pretty hard to deny KPs when your KPs are 10 all around and open topped. My advice is to kill as much as you're able with your waaagh (might even charge gazghkull and his buddies into something and leave the rest of your army hiding, he'll struggle to clean up the toughest unit in your army) and then hide. Use battlewagons and terrain to keep your trukks out of sight.

On objective missions, you're at somewhat of a lesser disadvantage. Play to your advantages (speed) and try to bait him far enough away from the objectives with his armor that he's not able to tank shock you off at the bottom of 5 - and if you give him the chance, he will. Land raiders are biiiiiiig. More than big enough to push an infantry unit out of 3" even if they pass their morale check.

Yes, I know the above "strategies" are basically "hang on tight and hope for the best", but there's a reason why I said that mechanized lists were your achilles heel.

Keep in mind that the above advice vs land raiders applies in objective missions (but not necessarily KPs, if he's got just one you can just do your best to ignore it) because just one land raider pushing just one of your units off an objective is pretty big. It also wrecks anything in your army except a mobile BW if he plays it right - LR redeemer tank shocks a mob of manz. They fail their morale, great! If not, still great! They move aside and end up bunched up. This is known as "please flame me" formation. Vulkan and his librarian buddy pop out, a couple flamers and an avenger later and your dudes are toast, and because the marine player has a gigantic wall-o-tank between him and the rest of your army there aren't any seriously exposed targets for you to put pressure on.

It's nasty. It works. It's why I wouldn't ever play orks in the current ruleset.

Well, Dash, this does seem like a very solid list. The only thing I can say is that I'm glad to discover that I was already sortof building this list by accident. Once you get into scratchbuilding Ork vehicles, it's hard to stop, so suddenly I have like Five Trukks and three Battlewagons that will all be finished soon. If only I could focus on just one at a time...

Yea, some of dem ig arent that weak .... bad series of events saw bosses wagon blow up and pin them, and getting charged by straken + squad to my nob squad was pretty funny, he dealt like 8 wounds, 4 from straken, managed to kill 2 nobs, but then the boss and 3 pk nobs swung back and wiped the squad at Init 1 lol ... Tough before they go splat anyways lol.

Manticore+psyker battle squad is the worst combo for nobs. Pray he doesnt open that battle wagon, or that nob mob is gone.

great avatar eidolon .... LOL

It was pretty cool. My new one will unleash mountains of nerd rage upon dakka

Anyway, back on topic.

Okay, I would have no problem putting my SM list against yours:

HQ
Librarian Termi armr +SS (avenger, nullzone) 140

Troops
Tactical Squad x10 Pf/ML/flamer/rhino 230
Tactical Squad x10 Pf/ML/flamer/rhino 230
Tactical Squad x5 pw+mb/ Razorback TL Assault Cannon 185
Tactical Squad x5 pw+mb/ Razorback TL Assault Cannon 185

Elites
Terminator Assault Squad x5 3x TH+SS /2x Lcs with LRC and MM 460

Heavy
Vindicator 115
Vindicator 115

Fast
Landspeederx2 Typhoon + Heavy bolter 180

I deploy as far away as possible, castled up likely starting in a corner or bottleneck in terrain. Typhoons grab side shots on the KFF BW while the rhinos start opening up the trucks. Vindicators, LR and razorbacks get in the fight once you enter 30". If I can deny you a good 2nd turn WAAGH its pretty much over, as the damage from the vindicators is going to be too devastating as the game progresses.

I think at one point you asked how to beat mech DE? In my experience lottas are golden for this, DE are made of paper and rage, the rage doesn't add anything structuraly so your lootas can blow their fast but fragile crafts out of the sky. Although this does not go with your list theme right now (mek ork). I always take 2 squads of 5-10 lootas when I play mechanised eldar or Dark eldar, and it always seems to pay off.

despoiler52 wrote: I always take 2 squads of 5-10 lootas when I play mechanised eldar or Dark eldar, and it always seems to pay off.

This is bad advice, as its not all comers but is list tailoring . Whether that is how you and your friends play is no concern of mine, but its not practical for tournaments

Dashofpepper wrote:

In fact, in addition to "how would you beat me" I'd welcome thoughts on how my list could beat raider spam and mechanized IG spam.

That is the only reason I mention lootas, as they are a specific solution, to a specific quanudrum.

I think Lootas are a great unit, especially if you take a full 15, and take three units of them.

They're not really fitting into my theme here though.

My space wolf list at 1850:

Logan
Rune Priest w/term armor/Chooser of the Slain/Jaws/Lightning

1x10man Grey Hunter squad w/2xflamer/Mark of Wulfen/Rhino
2x10man Grey Hunter squad w/2xmelta/Mark of Wulfen/Rhino

1x6man Long Fang squad w/5lc
2x6man Long Fang squad w/5ml

2 Rifleman Dread

1 Land Speeder w/hb/typhoon

I shoot all your trucks on my turn 1. Even with KFF, any of them will have a hard time surviving. Then your boyz are stuck on foot.

I advance some rhinos at least 6.1" to form a screen for my long fangs and dreads between your transports and boyz.

With no loota support, I don't think it will take more than a couple of turns of shooting to gut all of your transports, including battlewagons w/kff. If I can manage to do that before you can bust me out of all my rhinos and assault all of my gh's, I can hop out of my rhinos, bolter you and take your assault from your surviving boyz.

The key is to disrupt the delivery of all your boyz (a key component to you overwhelming your opponent) synchronized. If I can take your army in smaller bites rather than all at once, I can win.

I'll take my chances with a single deffkopta w/tl-rockets.

imweasel wrote:My space wolf list at 1850:

Logan
Rune Priest w/term armor/Chooser of the Slain/Jaws/Lightning

1x10man Grey Hunter squad w/2xflamer/Mark of Wulfen/Rhino
2x10man Grey Hunter squad w/2xmelta/Mark of Wulfen/Rhino

1x6man Long Fang squad w/5lc
2x6man Long Fang squad w/5ml

2 Rifleman Dread

1 Land Speeder w/hb/typhoon

I shoot all your trucks on my turn 1. Even with KFF, any of them will have a hard time surviving. Then your boyz are stuck on foot.

I advance some rhinos at least 6.1" to form a screen for my long fangs and dreads between your transports and boyz.

With no loota support, I don't think it will take more than a couple of turns of shooting to gut all of your transports, including battlewagons w/kff. If I can manage to do that before you can bust me out of all my rhinos and assault all of my gh's, I can hop out of my rhinos, bolter you and take your assault from your surviving boyz.

The key is to disrupt the delivery of all your boyz (a key component to you overwhelming your opponent) synchronized. If I can take your army in smaller bites rather than all at once, I can win.

I'll take my chances with a single deffkopta w/tl-rockets.

Are you contending that you'll disembark most of my trukks on turn 1? My army is pretty much a guaranteed turn2 assault army unless everything is kept in reserves, or unless you hug the VERY back table edge, such that I'd fall a few inches short on a turn2 assault. Just curious; thanks.

Dashofpepper wrote:

imweasel wrote:My space wolf list at 1850:

Logan
Rune Priest w/term armor/Chooser of the Slain/Jaws/Lightning

1x10man Grey Hunter squad w/2xflamer/Mark of Wulfen/Rhino
2x10man Grey Hunter squad w/2xmelta/Mark of Wulfen/Rhino

1x6man Long Fang squad w/5lc
2x6man Long Fang squad w/5ml

2 Rifleman Dread

1 Land Speeder w/hb/typhoon

I shoot all your trucks on my turn 1. Even with KFF, any of them will have a hard time surviving. Then your boyz are stuck on foot.

I advance some rhinos at least 6.1" to form a screen for my long fangs and dreads between your transports and boyz.

With no loota support, I don't think it will take more than a couple of turns of shooting to gut all of your transports, including battlewagons w/kff. If I can manage to do that before you can bust me out of all my rhinos and assault all of my gh's, I can hop out of my rhinos, bolter you and take your assault from your surviving boyz.

The key is to disrupt the delivery of all your boyz (a key component to you overwhelming your opponent) synchronized. If I can take your army in smaller bites rather than all at once, I can win.

I'll take my chances with a single deffkopta w/tl-rockets.

Are you contending that you'll disembark most of my trukks on turn 1? My army is pretty much a guaranteed turn2 assault army unless everything is kept in reserves, or unless you hug the VERY back table edge, such that I'd fall a few inches short on a turn2 assault. Just curious; thanks.

Yep. I can play on my back edge. Even with 4+ saves on your trucks, I have 8 tl-autocannons, 5 str10 lascannons, d6 str8 lightning shots and 12 missiles, all hiting on 2 or 3+ with a minimum of 48" range. Any pen hit only needs a 3+ to achieve my goal. I think I can make quite the mess of your trucks. I screen my gunline with rhinos to help with the battlewagons.

You don't have any gun support. If you had some lootas, this could and would be a different fight as you could pop my transports and get to the grey hunters. Even then, they are going to leave a mark, but it's much more favorable for you. As it is, you are going to have a rough time getting even my rhinos with a 6+ to hit. You could wreck them if you jumped out of your transports, but then that plays to my strengths.

Truk boy squads are just to small. It is relatively easy for marines to deal with 10-12 boyz.

If I get first turn with my list vs your current list, you are going to have a rough game.

Now if I were facing 4 20 boy/nob squads all in battlewagons...

Well, let's just say that's not going to be a better matchup for me than facing trucks. Shooting at av 14 with 4+ cover saves with missiles is not a good matchup. My rifleman are useless.

I think your list suffers from a huge issue Dash. One that a good player with the right army would shove down your throat. Im not saying this as an 'if we ever met on the table top id pwn you' statement, but a friendly warning. If I read your list right its got
big G
mek
4 squads of 12 boyz with choppas
one squad of 18 boyz with choppas
snikrot
burnas
1 kopta
2 wagons

The problem with this is your only serious hammer unit is that wagon squad with gaz and the burnas. Everything else will lose easily to a war of attrition. 12 man boyz mobs are not a serious issue. I think a fast mech army could light your trukks up early, and then work away on your wagons. Even with KFF trukks die fast. My eldar army spits 48 S6 scatter laser shots a turn, just from 2 units. Thats 24 a unit, and likely a dead truck anyway you slice itl. The wagons can be avoided fairly easily. And snikrot isnt a big threat to a heavily meched army. I would definetely add some lootas or something to help you deal with fast shooty lists. Even a tau army could put some hurt down on this if they had pathfinders/multiple markerlights as they could stop those wagons dead on turn 1.

I do agree in that he only has two big hammers, but like any good ork player he has a gak load of little ones. So in a war of attrition (were you are both losing lots of models) the ork player can generaly outlast it's opponent. I do however think that the space wolves army mentioned earlier could put a serious hurt on this list. It's not a sure thing, but I feel that the odds are in the space puppies favor.

despoiler52 wrote:I think at one point you asked how to beat mech DE? In my experience lottas are golden for this, DE are made of paper and rage, the rage doesn't add anything structuraly so your lootas can blow their fast but fragile crafts out of the sky. Although this does not go with your list theme right now (mek ork). I always take 2 squads of 5-10 lootas when I play mechanised eldar or Dark eldar, and it always seems to pay off.

Egads yes, DE hate Lootas.

I'm happy to see conversation has already started on DE as an answer to this list - because I think my take all comers DE list would stack up pretty well versus this Ork list. Certainly I'd have to play it in a weasel-like way and keep refusing my front while tossing up empty Raiders or gunboats to serve as screening units for the near inevitable charge. I will admit I wouldn't feel as comfortable as I normally do but I would be happy with no Lootas on the field. The biggest advantage I see is that I can play Raider wall a lot easier versus you since you've built to give the cover saves anyway. I'll have to keep moving over 6" for the most part to make it a little harder for you to pop Raiders via the planks (but then I move over 6" most of the time anyway. I will say I'm annoyed to see that many planks - most Ork players seem to give them a pass as not worth fielding and I'm just as happy with that thought being in their heads.) Clearly early popping of BWs to dump out either Ghaz or your mobile KFF is a high priority and with the number of lances I have I feel fairly confident I can de-mech them in 2 turns - as long as that goes my way it can become a war of attrition and DE Airforce can work that about as well as Orks and with you being on foot I can initiate the combats with my Wyches and Incubi to make them favorable to me and not to you. If the dice don't let me de-mech you early though then I start to very much question my odds (and honestly even if all is going well it'll get bloody difficult to keep control of the pacing of the fight).

I'd definitely love to fight this list some time to see if I'm assessing it right - it looks awesome.

Thor665, I moved from Jacksonville FL pretty recently; wish we had met at one of the stores for a game! The raider spam lists I've fought have been incredibly close affairs. I take boarding planks everywhere because I want every unit to be capable of anti-vehicle or anti-infantry.

Keep the info and thoughts coming!

Could someone elaborate that space wolves list a bit more?

Dashofpepper wrote:Thor665, I moved from Jacksonville FL pretty recently; wish we had met at one of the stores for a game! The raider spam lists I've fought have been incredibly close affairs. I take boarding planks everywhere because I want every unit to be capable of anti-vehicle or anti-infantry.

Keep the info and thoughts coming!

Could someone elaborate that space wolves list a bit more?

Well if you are refering to the one I posted, I will give it a shot.

The whole point is to get your orks out of their transports prior to hitting my grey hunters and to keep your truk boyz from coordinating their attacks with the battle wagons. If I can succeed in forcing you to get out of your battlewagons to assault my rhinos (because one model needing 6's to hit is not extremely good odds), then I can jump out of my rhinos, shoot you with bolters (along with any gunline support) and take huge chunks out of 20 boyz or 15 burnas and possibly even both. Even if you manage to get me out of my rhinos, I can still dump a bunch of fire on your battlewagon squad(s) if I manage to pop one up close. I have no concerns of being able to cripple your truck boyz. I will pop lots of trucks on turn 1. If I get to go first, I could literally shoot half your army off the table. Grey Hunters can fight well. Very well.

I will get assaulted, but I have an 80% chance of getting my counter attack off, netting me a minimum of 30 attacks before you get to roll dice, assuming no casualties on my part prior to that.

I'm not saying I won't be hurt. I could lose a squad or two. Who knows how it plays out really. But I can disrupt half your army. Also, the Long Fang squad with the rune priest and Logan is no easy meat in cc either. Snik could eat a long fang squad depending on when he shows up.

Any decent competitive shooty list will literally be able to make mince meat out of your trucks. That forces half of your cc troops to slog it out across the field allowing your army to be dealt with in detail.

12 boyz are rarely a serious threat to anything, even on the charge they will rarely dominate and 12 boyz cannot win the war of attrition, they die almost as fast as guardsmen.

Gaz and the burnas are the only things a list should be serious concerned about.

Fast shooty armies, ones that can stay in armor and/or run rings around you would absolutely own this list.
Mechdar, dark eldar, space wolves, I can see a good vulkan player or tau player taking this army for a ride.

One of the ork lists I play is similar list to DoP's list, though I vacillate between the extra trukk or more deffkoptas because I like the disruption they cause and they can often buy me that extra turn for the carnage and can help against fast and light armies like DE who have loads of long range vehicle poppers. The troubles I have seen are people who create solid, staggered firing lines behind bait units through choke points of impassable terrain or vehicle units. The plan is generally to create situations where, if I disembark, I chew up a unit or two and then get hammered by staggered gunlines, or if I choose to stay in my vehicles and not take their bait, they get another round of fire at my vehicles that can't hold out forever.

The other thing that I've run into that are tough are ANYTHING that deny cover saves, as it renders the KFF useless, and anything that can pour sheer numbers of S5+ shots into trukks from maneuverable units or indirect fire. Eventually you fail cover saves, even if I only give you 2 rounds to do it.

I concur with the general consenus that any army with good ranged firepower will give you fits. Anything that can disrupt the orcs coordination (by say, killing/immobilizing trucks) without having to come into danger close (18 inches or less) range will definately be a problem. My normal 1750 list packs 8 lascannons that can be fired at 7 different targets, along with 2 missile launchers that can go into different targets at well. And that is just the 48" range anti-tank firepower. It would be interesting to see what happens too if Ghaz's battlewagon gets destroyed early too. The cover saves from the KFF help but sheer volume of fire will be a problem for the AV 10 trucks.

Don't get me wrong: Its a solid ork list, especially against close ranged or assault armies. But its weaknesses can be exploited by good manuevering and use of ranged weaponary.

Gornall wrote:

starbomber109 wrote:but a list that can outrun you while out-shooting you is nonexistent.

I think I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. Mechdar and Dark Eldar scream to me as armies that can keep their distance and outshoot you at the same time. Whether that's enough for them to win the game is another story.

I just played that matchup on saturday, and I now agree, eldar can outshoot you while outruning you :O My own mech ork list wasn't quite as 'ard as Dash's but it was very similar. Both myself and my opponent were hosed by a lot of bad luck, and had good luck in places. I found that the analogy of "Strongest sword VS strongest shield" works, because it was a tie game. He would kill something, then my boyz would run out of their smoking wreck and kill something of his, plus there was a gamelong combat in the middle with the fortune seer council wailing away on the super-nob squad (each group worth 3 KP by the way).

I will say though, in my defence of that game that I did not play with a wolf pack style as I would normally do. Mostly because i wanted to see how the council would do in combat, and it just wouldnt have been fun to play against.

I realize that I didn't make this clear on my army list, but I thought that the unit configurations might do so - Ghazghkull is in a battlewagon with 18 boyz, and the KFF is in a battlewagon with the Burnas.

I'm not sure I agree with all the...."assurance" about long ranged firepower nuking my army. I've done my share of math-hammering out lascannons hurting my battlewagons; and we're talking about less than 3% chance of a lascannon shot ever doing anything to a battlewagon. In simplest turns, you're going to hit with half your shots. You're going to miss with half your shots. More than half of the hits won't get through armor, and out of the ones that do, I'll ignore half of them, and this is before even talking about what gets rolled on the vehicle damage chart.

I've fought my share of long ranged firepower and mechanized lists; seems like everyone runs mechanized lists now. =p Boarding planks really *do* make fantastic anti-tank. I'm a big fan of running a couple trukks up to a vehicle to get multiple boarding planks going, and I use the grabbin' klaws on my battlewagons to try immobilizing land raiders for auto-hits, and other fast-moving threatening things. I'm not going to make any kind of sweeping statements about my ability to tackle them because every game against an army like that is a concern, involves serious thought every turn...yeah.

Anyway, I'm looking for more "Here's my army and here's why it will beat you" than "You're going to have trouble with..."

Thanks!

Dashofpepper wrote:I realize that I didn't make this clear on my army list, but I thought that the unit configurations might do so - Ghazghkull is in a battlewagon with 18 boyz, and the KFF is in a battlewagon with the Burnas.

I'm not sure I agree with all the...."assurance" about long ranged firepower nuking my army. I've done my share of math-hammering out lascannons hurting my battlewagons; and we're talking about less than 3% chance of a lascannon shot ever doing anything to a battlewagon. In simplest turns, you're going to hit with half your shots. You're going to miss with half your shots. More than half of the hits won't get through armor, and out of the ones that do, I'll ignore half of them, and this is before even talking about what gets rolled on the vehicle damage chart.

I've fought my share of long ranged firepower and mechanized lists; seems like everyone runs mechanized lists now. =p Boarding planks really *do* make fantastic anti-tank. I'm a big fan of running a couple trukks up to a vehicle to get multiple boarding planks going, and I use the grabbin' klaws on my battlewagons to try immobilizing land raiders for auto-hits, and other fast-moving threatening things. I'm not going to make any kind of sweeping statements about my ability to tackle them because every game against an army like that is a concern, involves serious thought every turn...yeah.

Anyway, I'm looking for more "Here's my army and here's why it will beat you" than "You're going to have trouble with..."

Thanks!

I already posted my eldar list and a breakdown of issues we would both face

I know you're looking for specifics, but those are hard to give without scenario/terrain/etc.

And as for long-range firepower, I don't know if that's enough. The reason Eldar/Dark Eldar are mentioned is because they're fast AND shooty as heck. You'll have a hard time ever getting to grips with them.

However, I will say I (Mech Marines) am not going to take very many if any shots at your BWs. My main goal is to kill the squishy trucks at range to hopefully break up your charge into two components. Yeah, Ghazzy and his group are nasty, but I can either feed them speed bumps, block them off with Rhinos (who I know will get popped with boarding planks). That or I try and hit the BW with MMs on ABs or most likely LSs (blocking movement too) and then hit them with my counter-charge unit... PA Calgar and Honor Guard in a LR. Calgar attempts to base Ghazzie and let the HG wail on Orks. Unless you pop your Waagh, I feel confident that Calgar and Ghazzy will about the same number of wounds to each other, with maybe Calgar coming out slightly ahead. The HG are going to kill 7 or so Orks (not counting pistols and other shooting), so you're hopefully losing combat by around that much (banner and Calgar's fight versus your claws), killing off more Orks or giving me a solid chance to sweep.

Burnas are nasty, but if I can get them out of their wagon, I can shoot the tar out of them or tarpit them with a Dreadnought. Same with Snikrot.

Big thing is I have to try and avoid Turn 2 charges and back-breaking multi-charges. If I keep mobile, keep spread out, and keep firing, I feel good about my chances. That would be my gameplan at least, but we all know how well those survive first contact with the enemy.

EDIT: At the risk of being ridiculed, my 2k army list is:

HQ
Calgar in Power Armor
Honor Guard (5) with Relic Blade on the Champion and a Banner and Razorback with HB

Troops
Tactical Squad with PF, Flamer, ML, and Rhino
Tactical Squad with PF, Flamer, ML, and Rhino
Tactical Squad with MG, PC, MB, and Razorback with HB

Elite
Dreadnought with TLAutocannon and DCCW

Fast Attack
Landspeeder Squadron (2) with MM/HF
Attack Bike Squadron (3) with MMs

Heavy Support
Landraider (Vanilla) with MM and EA
Predator with Autocannon and Lascannon Sides

Hey Dash....

here is my current take all comers tourney IG list at 1750. If I had to add 100 to it I'd probably wiggle around some points (cut the PBS down to 6) and add another vendetta.

CCS 4x melta chimera heavy flamer

PBS x8 chimera heavy flamer

PCS 4x flamer chimera heavy flamer
infantry squad autocannon chimera heavy bolter
infantry squad autocannon chimera heavy bolter

PCS 4x flamer chimera heavy flamer
infantry squad commissar
infantry squad
infantry squad

vendetta with heavy bolters

vendetta with heavy bolters

3x hydra with heavy bolters

manticore with heavy flamer

manticore with heavy flamer


The problems you'd encounter when facing this list are primarily the manticores. On turn one I don't have to move, so i can fire the missiles indirectly at your KFF battlewagon. That means i get to tag your side armor 12 with strength 10 ordnance. With 2D3 blasts coming down on such a big vehicle, it is highly likely that I'll get a kill shot in the first turn. Even through the KFF. hyrdas are certainly overkill against all of the trukks, but will definitely take one down, and the two vendettas and two other autocannons will certainly account for a couple more trukks. Now there are still 6 multi-lasers left to fire and then either a strength 8 soulstorm or a weaken resolve targeting the KFF unit.

Theres no question that some trukks will reach assault, and that snikrot will get to charge something. I can deploy in such a way as to make it impossible for snikrot to reach my manticores in one turn (by deploying chimeras in base to base on either side of them, and by all 4 of those vehicles being lined up on the edge of the table, or by tarpitting him with my infantry blob.) This means that you'll get some kills, I'll certainly lose some chimeras, probably the hydras to snikrot, and a couple of infantry squads. But after turn 1 and turn 2 shooting phases, I'm confident that the critical mass needed to over-run me will be gone. And I'll just have to feed ghaz cheap units for long enough to whittle down his unit with the remaining manticore missiles, and then tarpit him or force him to go fearless for a turn, and then weaken resolve him afterwards.

The PBS and the manticores are so incredibly vital to my ability to efficiently peel away your threats, that its too bad you can't influence either of those units on turn 1. I know your list concept is just to go full speed ahead and to turn your opponents game plan into a messy, confused reaction to your under-strength boy spam. I like the concept a lot and I'm certain that the strategy works against a lot of matchups. Not elegantly, but orky... However, unless you take something that can shake/stun/weapon destroy/wreck those two heavily guarded components of my list, then I think you might be doomed. Things like kannons, lootas, kannons and rokkits on battlewagons or big shootas on kommandos (side and rear of chimera/manticore is 10) can help you silence those tools of mine before they take your two heavyweights apart.

I'll try and get Nash to run your list against me this holiday break.. he is prepping for a february tourney so it might be hard, but if we can do it, I'll take some pics and write it up.

Eidolon wrote:12 boyz are rarely a serious threat to anything, even on the charge they will rarely dominate and 12 boyz cannot win the war of attrition, they die almost as fast as guardsmen.

But you forget one very vital piece of information. You can very easily drop two or more squads onto the same unit, it is not a question of taking them out one at a time, they gang up as the situation demands. I'll try and make a hoard list that I think could take on the mekanised, my major advantage is that I wouldn't have to spend point to get into combet, I'd have you come to me.

despoiler52 wrote:I'll try and make a hoard list that I think could take on the mekanised, my major advantage is that I wouldn't have to spend point to get into combet, I'd have you come to me.

I think he wins that one, simply because he more than likely gets the charge off, so he gets the +1 S and +1 I to compensate for your greater numbers. But that's just me shooting from the hip.

Thanks Shep!

I've run up against a list like yours twice, and both times it was ugly. In the killpoints one I scored a minor victory because the lone surviving nob from a trukk boy squad wasn't dead (nor the other boy squad that had a nob + two boys). In the seize ground one, I had a lone surviving nob with one wound left sitting on an objective that gave me a minor victory.

Both games were extremely unsatisfactory because I felt like I got cheesy wins.

Have Nash built it and toss it at you - just make sure he uses it like a wrecking ball, with an oddball Deffkopta or two and Snikrot blazing into your back. If Snikrot comes in on the turn Ghazghkull is going to Waaaugh! he's got an 18" threat radius, so if you're against the back edge, he can move on 6", take a 6" fleet to circumvent your chimeras, and get into assault position on your Medusas. Keep that in mind.

Then again, lately I never seem to get Snikrot when I need him. =p

Dashofpepper wrote:Then again, lately I never seem to get Snikrot when I need him. =p

he was never good at taking orders was he?.. haha.

I'll be sure and PM you a link if i can get that batrep up.

It's a good list, relatively fluffy, plus it takes advantage of a lot of stuff Orks do well. It's fairly obvious, so I wonder why you don't see more of it. It's pretty much exactly the list I thought of when I read the new Ork dex.

That said, I a few things come to mind...

First, you have to be mobile against it. If you can run around and pick off a few Trukks first (or even get a side shot on the Battlewagons), you're in much better shape.

Orks are actually fairly crap when they get charged. People tend to want to avoid CC with Orks altogether, but you can't do that forever. Pick off a Trukk, and assault the contents. Force the Ork player to either stop and support the Trukk, or let you kill the Orks inside.

I'd split my force and give up the middle, hopefully with some mobility on both sides. Wherever Ghaz goes, I'd give up that side, try to pick off what I could as they went over there, then relocate everything fast to the other side of my force. Hopefully that gives me enough time to blow away enough stuff that the rest of the list can be shooting up walking Orks for the rest of the game.

Here is my current tournament Daemon List

HQ
1 Herald of Tzeentch w/ we are legion, master of sorcery, bolt of tzeentch, chariot
1 Herald of Tzeentch w/ we are legion, master of sorcery, bolt of tzeentch, chariot
1 Herald of Tzeentch w/ we are legion, master of sorcery, bolt of tzeentch, chariot
1 The Blue Scribes

Elite
3 Flamers
3 Flamers
3 Flamers

Troops
5 Horrors, bolt of tzeetnch
5 Horrors, bolt of tzeetnch
5 Horrors, bolt of tzeetnch
5 Horrors, bolt of tzeetnch

Fast Attack
4 Screamers
4 Screamers
4 Screamers

Heavy Support
1 Daemon Prince w/ mark of tzeentch, daemonic gaze, bolt of tzeentch
1 Daemon Prince w/ mark of tzeentch, daemonic gaze, bolt of tzeentch
1 Daemon Prince w/ mark of tzeentch, daemonic gaze, bolt of tzeentch

How I play against you depends on how you start the game. It then depends on if I get my preferred wave or not. It also depends on if you go first or if I go first. Note this is just on "killing" your army, nothing specific about scenario's.

If you stay on the table you have a decision to make. You are either going to stay clumped up to get your kff save for your vehicles or you are going to spread out. If you stay clumped I will put the 3 squads of flamers in my primary wave and suicide drop them in. The other part of the wave will be the screamers who will land on or around 16-24 inch's away from your front battle wagon or truck. And then the two horror squads will come in somewhere out of your charge arc but within 18 of the screamers. I will then average 2 trucks and a battlewagon with each breath from each flamer lands on target, all I'm looking for is a stunned, immbolized, or wrecked result, any of those are good for me, and since it's a flamer template you don't get a kff save. Anything I stun or immobilize is bait for the screamers next round and then you have the option of dismounting to get rid of the flamers or praying that ork shooting will do it for you. You also now have to decide to stay where you are or split your forces. Do you go after the screamers hanging out back or finish off the flamers or try and do both. If you move up and assault the screamers then their support horror's will shoot you after you are done killing them off. If you stay where you are and kill off the flamers then the screamers will block you off on the next turn. On my next turn my shooty stuff starts to drop and I just shoot at everything out there. I have 17 different units on the field that I can use to movement interdict and block off or insure that ghaz or the burna's only get one target a turn, and if they ever get out of their vehicle (before I blow it up) then I can combine fire on them.

If you spread out to avoid the flamers then I drop all the chariots and daemon princes and 2 squads of horror's, everything will shoot trucks, And if I roll anywhere close to odds I can make it so that none of your trucks can move or are destroyed in one round, even with saying half of them are getting the kff cover save. If you get anyone out to kill off the chariot's or daemon princes, the flamers coming in the next round will fry them. Or the horror's will shoot them. The screamers will drop in and then start performing mop up on immobilized or destroyed vehicles. Here what will save you will be bad reserve rolls or bad scatters for the flamers or horror's coming in. Also if you can catch me in a combi-assault so you can stay locked in. My squads are small for a purpose I want you to charge in, kill them, and then be out in the open for the next round.

If you force me to go first, which almost everyone does against daemons it makes the above much easier to do, because I can block you into your starting area. If you move out it makes it a bit tougher and I'll suffer more losses, it also makes it more likely your orks can make it into hand to hand after surviving the destruction of their trucks (since you are further up the table).

I'm not saying that my list is an auto win but the sheer amount of shots is going to get everything of yours walking very quickly, except for whats in the battlewagons, but if you ever give me good drop zones for sides on the battlewagon's they are going to be in trouble as well.

Daemons are tough. Not sure why more folks don't play them. A friend of mine has a nasty Khorne/Nurgle daemon army. Facing it is always a challenge and the game usually seems to turn on random stuff, like a dice streak or shenanigans with deepstrike.

Gornall wrote:

despoiler52 wrote:I'll try and make a hoard list that I think could take on the mekanised, my major advantage is that I wouldn't have to spend point to get into combet, I'd have you come to me.

I think he wins that one, simply because he more than likely gets the charge off, so he gets the +1 S and +1 I to compensate for your greater numbers. But that's just me shooting from the hip.

I'm glad you mentioned this, beacuse this is why I have special feelings over hoard armies. Any who on to the tactic. You run a big squad (or too in a big game) of grots in front of your battle line. You wait in your deployment zone beacuse you know they have to come to you. Basicaly you force them to charge your cheap units, denying them the oppertunity to to real damage. If your crap units break, great, beacuse on your turn you can shoot, then charge. By making some units in their army obselite you maximise your own point expendature. A smart opponent will ram throught your crap unit. but that is fine, beacuse the CC fight will be long and very grinding, although they get the charge (thought they might not) once they are in CC my supirior numbers will start to tell. Were he spent points on trukks and KFF meks, BW and other "get there fast" gear, I spent it on what is inevitable. The army I talk about uses a tactiv that relies on you comming to me, in this case it works, but even if you don't I can come to you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hq=245
Warboss; cyborg body, eavy armour, mega armour, attack squig=125
Warboss; cyborg body, mega armour, attack squig=120


Troops=1014
30 Orks boys; sluggas, choppas, nob, PK, bosspole=220
30 Orks boys; sluggas, choppas, nob, PK, bosspole=220
30 Orks boys; sluggas, choppas, nob, PK, bosspole=220
30 Orks boys; sluggas, choppas, nob, PK, bosspole=220
19 grots, 1 rutherd; grot blastas, slugga, choppa, grabba stick, squig hound=67
19 grots, 1 rutherd; grot blastas, slugga, choppa, grabba stick, squig hound=67

Fast attack=100
Warbuggie; Twin linked big shoota=30
Warbuggie; Twin linked big shoota=30
Warbuggie; Scorcha=40

Heavy support=390
3 Killa kans; skorchas=120
3 killa kans; grot zookas=135
3 killa kans; grot zookas=135

Total=1749 points

Dashofpepper wrote:I realize that I didn't make this clear on my army list, but I thought that the unit configurations might do so - Ghazghkull is in a battlewagon with 18 boyz, and the KFF is in a battlewagon with the Burnas.

I'm not sure I agree with all the...."assurance" about long ranged firepower nuking my army. I've done my share of math-hammering out lascannons hurting my battlewagons; and we're talking about less than 3% chance of a lascannon shot ever doing anything to a battlewagon. In simplest turns, you're going to hit with half your shots. You're going to miss with half your shots. More than half of the hits won't get through armor, and out of the ones that do, I'll ignore half of them, and this is before even talking about what gets rolled on the vehicle damage chart.

I've fought my share of long ranged firepower and mechanized lists; seems like everyone runs mechanized lists now. =p Boarding planks really *do* make fantastic anti-tank. I'm a big fan of running a couple trukks up to a vehicle to get multiple boarding planks going, and I use the grabbin' klaws on my battlewagons to try immobilizing land raiders for auto-hits, and other fast-moving threatening things. I'm not going to make any kind of sweeping statements about my ability to tackle them because every game against an army like that is a concern, involves serious thought every turn...yeah.

Anyway, I'm looking for more "Here's my army and here's why it will beat you" than "You're going to have trouble with..."

Thanks!

I'm not talking about taking out your battle wagons. I am talking about taking out your truks. If I can take out your truks, I'm ok with the battlewagons vs my rhinos, grey hunters and the rest of my army.

You don't seriously think that even with cover saves, that 12 autocannons, 5 lascannons, d6 str 8 shots hitting on 2's and 10 missile launchers cannot deal with your truks?

Alright, now this looks like fun. I'll admit, your list has me concerned, but I think I know how to beat it.

Sorcerer Lord Nikolii, MoN, Winds of Chaos, 150
Father's Envoy, the Great Unclean One (Greater Daemon), 100
7 Possessed Marines, Champ, Icon of Nurgle, Rhino, 277
7 Plague Marines, Personal Icon, 2 Meltaguns, Champ, Combi-Flamer, Rhino, 246
6 Noise Marines, Personal Icon, 5 Sonic Blasters, Blastmaster, Champ, Rhino with Havoc Launcher, 255
7 Plague Bearers (Lesser Daemons), 91
7 Plague Bearers (Lesser Daemons), 91
4 Chaos Bikers, 2 Meltaguns, Icon of Slaanesh, 172
2 Obliterators, 150
Predator, Lascannon Turret and Sponsons, 165
Defiler, TL Heavy Flamer, CCW, 150
1847

All I have to do is keep your hammers away and I can weather the storm. Castle up to keep Snikrot at bay and blow Gazzy's wagon away. He won't be making it to combat until turn 4 with Slow and Purposeful. I'll keep the Burna Boyz away if I can, but that is less important. My Possessed, Plaguers and Defiler can ward off 4 Trukk Mobs, especially if I pull the Rhinos in a semi-circle. Of course, my strategy will change dramatically if I get Furious Charge on my Possessed and the Greater Daemon on turn two, but so long as I can keep Ghazzy and the Burna Boyz away I am golden.

despoiler52 wrote:

Eidolon wrote:12 boyz are rarely a serious threat to anything, even on the charge they will rarely dominate and 12 boyz cannot win the war of attrition, they die almost as fast as guardsmen.

But you forget one very vital piece of information. You can very easily drop two or more squads onto the same unit, it is not a question of taking them out one at a time, they gang up as the situation demands. I'll try and make a hoard list that I think could take on the mekanised, my major advantage is that I wouldn't have to spend point to get into combet, I'd have you come to me.

It's very hard for the truk boyz to coordinate their attacks if they are foot slogging it across the board.

That my friend is not always true, with a little foresight you can get 3/4 or more of your army into assault on turn 2. It's all about practice. If you do it enogh you can replicate it. If you are refering to you killing his transports so that he can no longer coordinate then again you may delay the inevitable one turn, mabye.

despoiler52 wrote:If you are refering to you killing his transports so that he can no longer coordinate then again you may delay the inevitable one turn, mabye.

That's probably all most armies would need to whittle 12 man squads of Boyz down to managable levels. Throw in some tank shocks and it gets even tougher to coordinate those assaults.

Gornall wrote:

despoiler52 wrote:If you are refering to you killing his transports so that he can no longer coordinate then again you may delay the inevitable one turn, mabye.

That's probably all most armies would need to whittle 12 man squads of Boyz down to managable levels. Throw in some tank shocks and it gets even tougher to coordinate those assaults.

Thus just throws back to are origonal argumen about how there are more then 12 orks, imagine each as a 13 wound model, there are still 4 of them. Quantity is a quality in it's own right. So ya you kill 12 boys, then the other 36 get some serious revenge. Manage that.

Not to get too much into theory hammer, but I think what people are saying is once they're immobile it becomes "easier" to use vehicles/terrain/tarpits/etc to seperate the boyz into smaller groups and finish them. For example, I tank shock with Rhinos, pushing 2-3 squads back and seperating them from the one I'm going to kill that turn, allowing me to kill it and avoid all if not most of the counter-charge. Yeah, you kill my Rhinos probably, but then anyone inside or on the other side of the wreckage walks up and starts dropping shots/templates into bunched up Boyz. That or just keep doing it (imagine Eldar moving at 12" each turn with holo fields to get the full picture). And, let's be honest, those squads will probably be less than fearless after taking some wounds from explosions/shooting, so each of those tank shocks is forcing leadership tests.

And if get the charge off with even a lowly Tactical Squad against a 12 man Boyz squad, there's a good chance those Boyz are getting run down, leaving me free to handle the next 12 or so. Yeah, if I let you hit me with all your Boyz in 1-2 turns, then I'm toast, but as you're working hard to do that, I'm working hard to prevent it. Whoever does it the best wins.

despoiler52 wrote:

Gornall wrote:

despoiler52 wrote:If you are refering to you killing his transports so that he can no longer coordinate then again you may delay the inevitable one turn, mabye.

That's probably all most armies would need to whittle 12 man squads of Boyz down to managable levels. Throw in some tank shocks and it gets even tougher to coordinate those assaults.

Thus just throws back to are origonal argumen about how there are more then 12 orks, imagine each as a 13 wound model, there are still 4 of them. Quantity is a quality in it's own right. So ya you kill 12 boys, then the other 36 get some serious revenge. Manage that.

I don't need to manage the '12 boyz'. I just managed to get more than half of his boyz out of the fight with the other half. That's huge.

I plan on the battle wagons getting to me. That's ok. It's 40k. It's not like it's an auto win.

But I definitely like my odds with 48 boyz arriving one turn later (and possibly shot up some) than all of them hitting me at once.

Exactly. If you split the attack into 2+ waves, it becomes managable. It's generally when they all hit in one massive turn that you see armies crumble.

So consensus is that self hating/angry eldar and space wolves would probably molest this army?

Eidolon wrote:So consensus is that self hating/angry eldar and space wolves would probably molest this army?

I agree that some of the lists and tactics posted in this thread would make him the underdog in a fight. Lots of things could throw that off like terrain and missions.

However, nothing but raider spam truly molests this army, but that's not an all around list. I think pepper would concede that a list could be built that would just eat him for lunch.

That's not the purpose. He wanted to see some all around army lists that could give him a fight, what they would do so he could figure out what he should do and possibly even tweak his list.

I would say, judging from the responses and his replies, he is getting a lot of the feedback that he is looking for. He is taking it in and asking questions and not bashing anything.

Smart guy.

Dash of Pepper,

Here is my standard 1750 list

Librarian with Null Zone/Avenger

10 Marines, Lascannon, Plasmagun, Powerfist, Razorback with Las/Twin-Plas

10 Marines, Lascannon, Plasmagun, Powerweapon, Razorback with Las/Twin-Plas

10 Marines, Missile Launcher, Plasmagun, Powerfist, Razorback with Las/Twin-Plas

10 Marines, Missile Launcher, Plasmagun, Powerweapon, Razorback with Las/Twin-Plas

Predator with Lascannon Sponsons

Predator with Heavy Bolter Sponsons

Thunderfire Cannon

3 AB with HBs

2 AB with MMs

Not sure what I would use the extra 100 points for. Probably a typhoon or two more MM bikes.

My 48" range firepower would focus on opening up your trucks turn one. Once the trucks are open, I can either use my HB platforms to kill additional trucks or deff koptas depending on their location & threat level. The MM bikes would position for cover and the ability to move into danger close range to pop a battlewagon turn two and act as a mobile screen. I'd be willing to sacrifice a tank or two to Snikrot and then use a tac squad with rapid fire to neuter his squad. The general game plan would be to disrupt the timing of your attack and make you hit my lines piecemeal. The Thunderfire will generally be last to fire just on the off chance that the AT firepower can expose Ghaz's mob or the burnas.

imweasel wrote:However, nothing but raider spam truly molests this army, but that's not an all around list.

If it's not (which I'm not sure I agree with) it is the most competitive option DE have and thus the most common DE build to see.

Thor665 wrote:

imweasel wrote:However, nothing but raider spam truly molests this army, but that's not an all around list.

If it's not (which I'm not sure I agree with) it is the most competitive option DE have and thus the most common DE build to see.

Oops. My bad. I meant land raider spam.

DE raider spam good and is an all around list!

Oh god a 3 crusader/redeemer army would eat this list for breakfast.

heres my 1850 marine list which I think would do pretty well. I built it largely with the goal of handling rhino spam, so it would do pretty good against speed freaks me thinks.


lysander-200

5 thunder hammer terminators-200

Land raider -275
Multi melta, extra armor

Tactical squad-220
10 marines, sergeant with power fist/ combi melta, melta gun, lascannon

Tactical squad-220
10 marines, sergeant with power fist/ combi melta, melta gun, lascannon

Razorback-twin linked lascannon

Tactical squad-220
10 marines, sergeant with power fist/combi melta, melta gun, lascannon

Razorback-75
Twin linked lascannons

Vindicator-130
Extra armor

Vindicator-130
Extra armor, dozer blade

Thunderfire canon-100

Well, I've never fought an Ork mech list but I've fought almost everything else. I'll list my common load outs at 1850:

HQ

Kharn

( bigger battles see the addition of a DP of Nurgle with wings and Nurgles Rot )

Troops

10 Berzerkers
- Champ PF
- Rhino

9 Berzerkers
- in LR with Kharn
- sometimes has a champ with PW

7 Plague Marines
- 2 x PG
- Rhino

7 Plague Marines
- 2 x MG
- Rhino

Fast Attack

6 Bikers
- MoN
- 2 x MG
- Sometimes 5 bikes with a champ and PF

Heavy Support

2 x Obliterators ( against friends the Obliterators are defilers to have less of a tourny feel yet often there more effective )

2 x Obliterators

Land Raider
- Possesed
- Dozer blade


So like I said I've never faced a list like yours but I've gone up against lists that just want to get me into close combat and I've never lost against those.

I seem to have an affinity for getting Kharn into the right situations, I've never lost him to a PF or IC getting the jump on him, I don't know how but he always gets the charge. I'd be keeping the Oblits close to the rest so I can twin link flame if the opportunity arises, deploying them up instead of behind. Of course I'd want the bikes to put a stop to Gaz and his wagon but there roll is totally going to depend on who goes first and the more I think about it there role is very diminished against your list unless I can at least get 2 MG shots on you before your assault. So with that in mind I'd use them as a wall to help Kharn get to pick his target.

I'm going to add more but I'm geting tired, but as a summary I think most of the battle would have to be a dance with me trying very hard to get the berzerkers where I need them. I win most of my battles by out manuevering people and making sure the dice work in my favour.

I'll try to post more tomorow.

DarkHound wrote:Alright, now this looks like fun. I'll admit, your list has me concerned, but I think I know how to beat it.

Sorcerer Lord Nikolii, MoN, Winds of Chaos, 150
Father's Envoy, the Great Unclean One (Greater Daemon), 100
7 Possessed Marines, Champ, Icon of Nurgle, Rhino, 277
7 Plague Marines, Personal Icon, 2 Meltaguns, Champ, Combi-Flamer, Rhino, 246
6 Noise Marines, Personal Icon, 5 Sonic Blasters, Blastmaster, Champ, Rhino with Havoc Launcher, 255
7 Plague Bearers (Lesser Daemons), 91
7 Plague Bearers (Lesser Daemons), 91
4 Chaos Bikers, 2 Meltaguns, Icon of Slaanesh, 172
2 Obliterators, 150
Predator, Lascannon Turret and Sponsons, 165
Defiler, TL Heavy Flamer, CCW, 150
1847

All I have to do is keep your hammers away and I can weather the storm. Castle up to keep Snikrot at bay and blow Gazzy's wagon away. He won't be making it to combat until turn 4 with Slow and Purposeful. I'll keep the Burna Boyz away if I can, but that is less important. My Possessed, Plaguers and Defiler can ward off 4 Trukk Mobs, especially if I pull the Rhinos in a semi-circle. Of course, my strategy will change dramatically if I get Furious Charge on my Possessed and the Greater Daemon on turn two, but so long as I can keep Ghazzy and the Burna Boyz away I am golden.

Darkhound:

I ran into serious problems with the old IG Codex - A friend of mine who has won his share of GTs over the years played drop-troop catachans, and his entire army was deep-striking (except for a tank or three, hellhounds sometimes) and he would deep strike his entire army around my army and melta-flamer me at close range. One squad of (5?) would melta/kill a trukk and the next unit would flame the unit inside dead, and the units were small enough and cheap enough that if he deepstruck poorly he had others to make up for it.

Is this a take-all-comers list you have there, or built for me? Also, I haven't had the opportunity to fight demons very often - when I see them its usually a couple of soul-grinders, some demon princes, and some of those obscene invul save guys that congregate on objectives (and other things). Keep in mind that while Ghazghkull is slow and purposeful, he's also an IC, so he gets 3d6 instead of 2d6. And my vehicles *do* travel in a tight pack - if his battlewagon gets dropped, he just hops into the KFF+burna's battlewagon and keeps trukkin'.

I'm not very familiar with demons, weapon strengths etc...so could you answer this for me - where is the anti-tank in that list? What's the range on the various forms of it? Could you elaborate on your deep-striking anti-tank for me?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also a couple other notes:

Over time, I'm going to try getting some of these lists created by people around here and played against me.

Also, I think raider spam *is* a take-all-comers list. My wife and I are in the middle of painting raiders for my dark eldar army, which hasn't taken the table for a game yet, and my list is raider spam with mini-sniper squads to get more dark lances. =p

In terms of fast armies (Eldar in particular), I've had some interesting games against those army types that involve me chasing down a vehicle at a time, failing to ram it because they are skimmers and get a 2+ or a 3+ get out of the way roll, then trying to boarding plank them, or even dumping out and surrounding it to try getting more hits to kill it. Frustrating fights.

As for creating multiple waves in my army by dropping my transports...I won't claim that I always get my vehicles across the field unscathed; in a lot of games, by the end of it I only have 1-2 vehicles left (sometimes less). When my boyz get disembarked early, they start in cover (trukk wreckage is 4+), and I try to keep them in cover wherever they're going - I'm a big fan of stringing a squad of boyz out 2" apart to hold multiple objectives. It does suck losing squads of boyz early on because they're disembarked and can't get into the fight...but I have to reiterate that I don't fight army vs. army. It isn't my army smashing into your army for a general brawl, and however much makes it across the field dictates my chances for winning the brawl...I treat my army as a wrecking ball. Its going to smash into a piece of your army. Just a few units. Whatever is available when I get where I'm going determines how much I assault, and where. I typically drop Ghazghkull off by himself to tangle up the biggest meanest unit (lately that's been a Runepriest, Ajax, multiple terminators), and I'll let him spend his turn + the following enemy turn dealing with them while he has his 2+ invulnerable save, then the following turn when his invul save is gone, I'll smack some boyz into the mess and make my opponent decide whether he wants to try killing Ghazghkull who's 2+ invul save is gone, or deal with the boyz who are going to molest them.

I guess I'm saying that I understand what being disembarked means, and there's a running tally through the first couple of turns about where I'm going and what I'm trying to assault based on my available units and enemy deployment. I think the most difficult scenarios I'd face right now would be raider spam (obvious) and a castled up army. I *really* count on people spreading units around so that I can pick a piece of the fight and have at it. Castling up in a tight deployment would somewhat deny me the ability to surgically remove a piece of army, then turning to deal with the rest.

Is this a take-all-comers list you have there, or built for me? Also, I haven't had the opportunity to fight demons very often - when I see them its usually a couple of soul-grinders, some demon princes, and some of those obscene invul save guys that congregate on objectives (and other things). Keep in mind that while Ghazghkull is slow and purposeful, he's also an IC, so he gets 3d6 instead of 2d6. And my vehicles *do* travel in a tight pack - if his battlewagon gets dropped, he just hops into the KFF+burna's battlewagon and keeps trukkin'.

I'm not very familiar with demons, weapon strengths etc...so could you answer this for me - where is the anti-tank in that list? What's the range on the various forms of it? Could you elaborate on your deep-striking anti-tank for me?


I think this is directed at me, since I'm the only one that has posted a daemon list, I think. That is my all comers-list. You can see it in several different battle report's here on dakka.
So here is a break down of what each of the unit's do in my list.

HQ
Herald on Chariot, jetbike, 3 str 5 ap3 shots, 1 str 8 ap1 shot at bs 4, all at 24"
Herald on Chariot, jetbike, 3 str 5 ap3 shots, 1 str 8 ap1 shot at bs 4, all at 24"
Herald on Chariot, jetbike, 3 str 5 ap3 shots, 1 str 8 ap1 shot at bs 4, all at 24"
The Blue Scribes, have all of the weapons metioned in my list, plus a few other's.

Elites
3 Flamers, each has 3str 4 ap4 shots at 18", or a flamer template that always wounds on 4+, and auto-glances vehicles on a 4+
3 Flamers, each has 3str 4 ap4 shots at 18", or a flamer template that always wounds on 4+, and auto-glances vehicles on a 4+
3 Flamers, each has 3str 4 ap4 shots at 18", or a flamer template that always wounds on 4+, and auto-glances vehicles on a 4+

Troops
5 Horrors, each has 3 str 4 ap4 shots at 18", on has a 1str 8 ap1 shot at 24", bs3
5 Horrors, each has 3 str 4 ap4 shots at 18", on has a 1str 8 ap1 shot at 24", bs3
5 Horrors, each has 3 str 4 ap4 shots at 18", on has a 1str 8 ap1 shot at 24", bs3
5 Horrors, each has 3 str 4 ap4 shots at 18", on has a 1str 8 ap1 shot at 24", bs3

Fast Attack
4 Screamers, all jetbikes with melta bomb's
4 Screamers, all jetbikes with melta bomb's
4 Screamers, all jetbikes with melta bomb's

Heavy Support
Daemon Prince, 3 str 5 ap3 shots, 1 str 8 ap1 shot at bs 5, all at 24"
Daemon Prince, 3 str 5 ap3 shots, 1 str 8 ap1 shot at bs 5, all at 24"
Daemon Prince, 3 str 5 ap3 shots, 1 str 8 ap1 shot at bs 5, all at 24"

So an initial wave of 3 chariots, 3 daemon princes (I would probably make sure the horror's were more than 24 away from you). Dish's out 6 str 8 ap1 shots and 18 str 5 ap3 shots. Half of those hitting on 3's, half of them hitting on 2's. If I do decide to go gutsy with the horror's I can lump in a further 2 str 8 ap1 shots and 24 str 4 shots into your truks. The initial strategy will be to pop trucks and ignore your battle wagons unless you present me with side shots. All of the chariots can split fire, so they can feasibly shoot their str8 shot at the side of a wagon and the str 5 shots into truks.

But remember if you are tightly packed i'm going to try and put flamers in my first wave. The flamer template depending on how tightly packed you are will net me 3-4 hits per template. So a single squad of 3 landing on target or close by will get me 4-6 glancing hit's on 3-4 of your vehicles and since it's a flamer template it ignores cover so no kff. And I don't care about blowing it up, I'm looking for stunned, immobilized or wrecked. So since you are open topped that's a result of 3,5,6 which means that one flamer squad is stopping 2 of your vehicles. If 2 of them land close enough to do something that's 4. You are rapidly running out of mobile vehicles. Anything sitting around will be in serious danger of the melta bomb toting screamers the next turn. And your stuff that does get to move will be blocked after that first turn by the screamers, who will be interleaved forcing multiple tank shock attacks if at all possible.

Interesting....thanks for the reply.

demon princes are BS5.

Shame on you warmaster! haha

I fight a player locally all the time who fields Daemons - and that army does require some interesting footwork at times. Flamers certainly eat massed Raiders for breakfast - I had to learn to really spread out my line so his deepstrikes could only catch a Raider at a time.

The thing with daemons is they usually obligate you to play your list in a way that is different from how you play everyone else.

Shep wrote:demon princes are BS5.

Shame on you warmaster! haha

It was a cut and paste error, I got it right in the summary! I blame having to do some actual work.

I've said it before, daemons are nasty and rare enough that most folks have no idea how to face them. They present an interesting challenge for the mechanized and small model count armies, for sure. Most of their tricks seem to be nailing high tactical-value targets in a big wave, then mopping up the rest, so they have trouble with the horde armies that can counter punch. I saw someone with an ork loota/shoota army (3 loota units, 120 shoota boyz, plus the rest of the fun) ANNIHILATE the daemons even after losing half their army in the first deepstrike wave because half an ork shooty army can still throw 200+ dice of shooting at you in a single turn.

I've found a good tactic against daemons is keeping your army in reserve and utilizing your maneuver speed to hit them as they land on the table. If you give them a massed target, they can kill you (damn flamer templates), but if you get the charge, you can wipe them out like any other army. Of course, the uncertainty of reserves makes this risky, but so's sitting in formation waiting to be deep-striked.

I think theres a pair of reasons you dont see demons at many tournaments or winning a lot of events.
The first being that armies with mystics or null zone make the game very very tough for a demons army.
The second being that its easy to get screwed hard by deep striking.

I agree with Eidolon - daemon armies suffer due to a handful of armies out there being able to almost totally nerf them even before they hit the board.

They are interesting to fight though, because as I said they do play by basically a different ruleset then all other armies.

I'd use this list:

Stelek wrote:
2000 Pts - Eldar Roster - MechDar Redux

1 Autarch @ 80 pts ((pp.29 & 60 Eldar); Fleet; Independent Character; Master Strategist; Forceshield; Shuriken Pistol; Fusion Gun; Haywire Grenades; Plasma Grenades)

5 Fire Dragons @ 225 pts ((pp.32 & 62 Eldar); Fleet; Fusion Gun; Melta Bombs)
1 Wave Serpent ((pp.45 & 63 Eldar); Energy Field; Shuriken Cannon; TL Bright Lances)

5 Fire Dragons @ 225 pts ((pp.32 & 62 Eldar); Fleet; Fusion Gun; Melta Bombs)
1 Wave Serpent ((pp.45 & 63 Eldar); Energy Field; Shuriken Cannon; TL Bright Lances)

5 Fire Dragons @ 225 pts ((pp.32 & 62 Eldar); Fleet; Fusion Gun; Melta Bombs)
1 Wave Serpent ((pp.45 & 63 Eldar); Energy Field; Shuriken Cannon; TL Bright Lances)

1 Vyper Squadron @ 180 pts ((pp.41 & 65 Eldar))
1 Vyper (Shuriken Cannon; Shuriken Cannon)
1 Vyper (Shuriken Cannon; Shuriken Cannon)
1 Vyper (Shuriken Cannon; Shuriken Cannon)

1 Vyper Squadron @ 180 pts ((pp.41 & 65 Eldar))
1 Vyper (Shuriken Cannon; Shuriken Cannon)
1 Vyper (Shuriken Cannon; Shuriken Cannon)
1 Vyper (Shuriken Cannon; Shuriken Cannon)

1 Vyper Squadron @ 180 pts ((pp.41 & 65 Eldar))
1 Vyper (Shuriken Cannon; Shuriken Cannon)
1 Vyper (Shuriken Cannon; Shuriken Cannon)
1 Vyper (Shuriken Cannon; Shuriken Cannon)

1 Falcon @ 175 pts ((pp.42 & 67 Eldar); Holo-Field; Scatter Laser; Shuriken Cannon; Pulse Laser)
5 Dire Avengers @ 60 pts ((pp.30 & 64 Eldar); Fleet; Avenger S-Catapult)

1 Falcon @ 175 pts ((pp.42 & 67 Eldar); Holo-Field; Scatter Laser; Shuriken Cannon; Pulse Laser)
5 Dire Avengers @ 60 pts ((pp.30 & 64 Eldar); Fleet; Avenger S-Catapult)

1 Falcon @ 175 pts ((pp.42 & 67 Eldar); Holo-Field; Scatter Laser; Shuriken Cannon; Pulse Laser)
5 Dire Avengers @ 60 pts ((pp.30 & 64 Eldar); Fleet; Avenger S-Catapult)

Total Roster Cost: 2000

Yes, that's 84 S6 shots a turn. Yes, I've been testing this army against the new Tyranids. There are also 9 S8 AP2 shots a turn. Granted, all of this is BS3, but that's ok isn't it?

You also have, if needed, 15 Fire Dragons (15 meltagun shots) and 15 Dire Avengers (30 Avenger shots).

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/12/eldar-analysis-different-way-of-doing.html

I don't think it would have much trouble with OP list.

kadun, thanks for copying an army list you didn't make, contributing nothing useful about its units or tactics (I don't know a whole lot about Eldar)...

And most obviously, not even meeting the requirements here. Feel free to take that list and configure it to the point settings here, and elaborate on how you'd use it instead of "my list pwns yours" which is completely useless feedback. Thanks!

Hey Dash, I'm not certain what was meant for me in that post. It seemed all of it was better suited as a response to Warmaster. Can you elaborate?

Dashofpepper wrote:kadun, thanks for copying an army list you didn't make, contributing nothing useful about its units or tactics (I don't know a whole lot about Eldar)...

And most obviously, not even meeting the requirements here. Feel free to take that list and configure it to the point settings here, and elaborate on how you'd use it instead of "my list pwns yours" which is completely useless feedback. Thanks!

Dash, feel free to click on the link provided. There is lots of additional information about how to use the list. There is also discussion on how to trim the list to 1850 (cut a viper from each squadron).

As far as beating your original list, what I would do is sac 2 Wave Serpents and 10 Fire Dragons to bring down your Battlewagons (if you're using them to screen your trukks and if I don't get lucky with Bright Lances against the front and/or Pulse Lasers against side armor). Your trukks then die pretty easily and your foot sloggers would be no match for the rest of the lists mobile firepower.

I would agree with Dash on the point that that is niether your list, and its doubtful that you own it. While I can agree that army would absolutely wreck mech orks it wouldnt stand up to various other lists like guard or vulkan, other common archetypes. Which is something else that I think would be useful to add to this thread. A list that can beat his should be able to take on many of the other common tournament archetypes. I could list tailor an eldar army that would poop on anything in the game. The hard part is making one that can take on anything with one list.

Eidolon wrote:I would agree with Dash on the point that that is niether your list, and its doubtful that you own it.

I would also agree with the point that it was not my list, seeing how I quoted someone else and provided a link to someone else's website. I don't, however, think this detracts from the inherent strength of the list. If you want to discuss specifics of the list, I can provide my input and quote/forward your question to the list creator.

Eidolon wrote:While I can agree that army would absolutely wreck mech orks it wouldnt stand up to various other lists like guard or vulkan, other common archetypes. Which is something else that I think would be useful to add to this thread. A list that can beat his should be able to take on many of the other common tournament archetypes. I could list tailor an eldar army that would poop on anything in the game. The hard part is making one that can take on anything with one list.

This list is far from tailored to defeat mech Orks. Visit the link provided for more information and discussion regarding its construction and use. It is designed as a take all comers tournament army.

Again, the list has 84 Strength 6 shots and 9 Strenth 8 AP 2 shots going downrange. In addition it has 15 meltaguns in transports that negate the strength of opposing armies' meltaguns.

Five Fire Dragons on AV 14 that gets a cover save doesn't seem optimal odds to me (though you do have then the third squad to toss in as long as you pop one of the two wagons). If that doesn't work you end up having to play the side armor game with your other vehicles.

Certainly if you can pop the wagons that list has enough firepower to put some meaty holes in a bunch of footsloggin' Orks. As we've been saying, mobile shooty armies like DE and regular E are going to have good percentages to win versus this Ork list. That is certainly an Eldar list that could do once it was parsed down to meet the 1850 requirement (drop a Vyper from each squad, as mentioned, also looks like you could sack one of the Dragon squads to do so).

It's not really any more or less of a slam dunk then DE Raider spam vs. the Ork list in my opinion though. (I think it would stand a better chance against my regular DE list then dash's Ork list - but then I loathe having to deal with hordes of scatter lasers and shuriken cannons with DE)


Dash - a quick rundown of Eldar in that list would be -

A trio of melta and melta bomb armed squads (fire Dragons) in a fast skimmer transport. Their melta bombs probably won't help them much as they'll never really be in a position to assault you since with open tops your trukk boyz will always be able to out threat distance them. Each of their transposrts also has a BS 3 twinlinked bright lance (Str 8 counts AV over 12 as 12) guns on them. WIth only three of them he'll be hard pressed to rip open your

However, he then also has a horde of what basically amounts to Land Speeders with pairs of Assault 3 Str 6 guns on them. His firepower will be slightly limited by how much he needs to move, but he'll be able to chew open trukks like a pro.

Finally the three Dire Avengers squads in Falcons rounds out the list - giving him mobile objective grabbers as well as a nasty trio of shooting skimmer tanks and some of the best all around troops Eldar can field.

The list is all around pretty darn solid, and I have actually fought something very similar to it once in a tourney finals match (I lost, but it was close and really with all of our high damage output low damage input skimmers it really did just sort of come down to how some reserve rolls worked out)

It's biggest question is whether or not it can deal with your Wagons expediently. If it can pop the Wagons then it ought to be able to dance around you pretty easily and just shred trukks as you try to run down their fast units (much akin to how a good DE player would probably have you chasing Raiders all over the map). Falcons are pretty damn annoying to pop, and your boarding plank strategy will not feel quite as effective versus them.

It's not a slam dunk, but if the two armies fought I'd put my money on the elves. I do disagree with kadun's strategy with the list - I'd probably just split my army into two forces and obligate you to give me side or rear armor with one of those forces. The other one ought to be fast enough to mostly escape unscathed since de-meching eldar is tough, and it would allow my Str 6 shots to get to chew into the BWs pathetically weak side and rear armor which would be much easier to destroy then playing around with meltas on the AV 14 front.

I would first like to appoligise and clairify what now looks like my own obstinence, I thought you were discounting the boys a a threat all together once they were out of the trukk. I'm sorry for my confusion. So right now we have come up with 3 genres of lists that we think could give the op list a good run for it's money. They are as follows, and plaes correct me if I'm wrong;

1. A very mobile army feilding many AT weapons. There are several specific examples on this thread, mostly eldar and DE armies. Basicaly running and gunning, dropping the BW and trukks to isolate infantry.

2. Armies using extreme heavy armour, like LR spam. Capitalising on a lack of really heavy anti-tank capibilities, and also being able to kill large portions of units each turn.

3. An all hoard army. Thus making the fast CC troops less effective by tarpiting them (can I use that as a verb?)

I would also like to add that this thread has been very informative and interesting to me. Thank you to all who helped this thread.

kadun wrote:

Eidolon wrote:While I can agree that army would absolutely wreck mech orks it wouldnt stand up to various other lists like guard or vulkan, other common archetypes. Which is something else that I think would be useful to add to this thread. A list that can beat his should be able to take on many of the other common tournament archetypes. I could list tailor an eldar army that would poop on anything in the game. The hard part is making one that can take on anything with one list.

This list is far from tailored to defeat mech Orks. Visit the link provided for more information and discussion regarding its construction and use. It is designed as a take all comers tournament army.

Again, the list has 84 Strength 6 shots and 9 Strenth 8 AP 2 shots going downrange. In addition it has 15 meltaguns in transports that negate the strength of opposing armies' meltaguns.

Negates meltaguns while running around with AV 12, which means lascannons and most large guns on vehicles can pop holes in them pretty handily. I do agree with Eidolon that a good IG list ought to eat up Stelek's Eldar list pretty functionally. I think the list would probably do okay versus Vulkan - but then I'm really dismissive towards Vulkan so I might be biased (I just think a lot of less talented players always seem to be the ones showing up with Vulkan lists, so you don't often see it played optimally). It's a very good anti-horde list with some pretty good anti-mech tech built into it. But a heavy mech list strikes me as its weakness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

despoiler52 wrote:1. A very mobile army feilding many AT weapons. There are several specific examples on this thread, mostly eldar and DE armies. Basicaly running and gunning, dropping the BW and trukks to isolate infantry.

2. Armies using extreme heavy armour, like LR spam. Capitalising on a lack of really heavy anti-tank capibilities, and also being able to kill large portions of units each turn.

3. An all hoard army. Thus making the fast CC troops less effective by tarpiting them (can I use that as a verb?)

I think that probably sums it up quite well. I might slightly question all horde - since assaulting Orks beats most other horde archetypes I can think of, but certainly with enough bodies the counter charges could seal the deal.

I also think we've just managed to roughly outline the meta game as our answer. IG, mech Space Marines, Mechdar, and Mech Ork with horde kinda lurking around on the periphery.

despoiler52 wrote:I would also like to add that this thread has been very informative and interesting to me. Thank you to all who helped this thread.

I do second this - interesting thread.

As for hoard I'm thinking of other orks, mabye nids. Basicaly anything that can shrug off 24 boys, and then counter ferociously.

Thor665 wrote:

kadun wrote:

Eidolon wrote:While I can agree that army would absolutely wreck mech orks it wouldnt stand up to various other lists like guard or vulkan, other common archetypes. Which is something else that I think would be useful to add to this thread. A list that can beat his should be able to take on many of the other common tournament archetypes. I could list tailor an eldar army that would poop on anything in the game. The hard part is making one that can take on anything with one list.

This list is far from tailored to defeat mech Orks. Visit the link provided for more information and discussion regarding its construction and use. It is designed as a take all comers tournament army.

Again, the list has 84 Strength 6 shots and 9 Strenth 8 AP 2 shots going downrange. In addition it has 15 meltaguns in transports that negate the strength of opposing armies' meltaguns.

Negates meltaguns while running around with AV 12, which means lascannons and most large guns on vehicles can pop holes in them pretty handily. I do agree with Eidolon that a good IG list ought to eat up Stelek's Eldar list pretty functionally. I think the list would probably do okay versus Vulkan - but then I'm really dismissive towards Vulkan so I might be biased (I just think a lot of less talented players always seem to be the ones showing up with Vulkan lists, so you don't often see it played optimally). It's a very good anti-horde list with some pretty good anti-mech tech built into it. But a heavy mech list strikes me as its weakness.

Actually "lascannons and most large guns on vehicles" will be Strength 8 max vs the Serpents. I actually play what I consider a "good IG list" and I don't think I can walk Stelek's Viper list. We both have a tremendous amounts of firepower at range and lots of meltaguns in close. IMHO it will come down to generalship and luck in a good IG list vs a good Eldar list. Mech Eldar vs Mech Ork, however, I think the pointy ears have a decided advantage.

Nids seem like they might give this list issues. I could be wrong but that seems like a tough match up. Given the nature of the new codex with the rumored shooty abilities this kind of ork list might become a thing of the past

I still say Str 8 versus AV 12 pops things pretty handily. I'll admit I play DE so I might have a mind that works that way - but I'll happily take those chances all day long. You don't need melta to frag AV 12.

I think IG vs. Eldar and Eldar vs. Orks in both cases tends to come down to the quality of the list and the general. I don't see either match up as a gimme for a bad general versus a competent one. However with two equal generals I personally believe that IG have the advantage over Mechdar - certainly as much as you seem to feel Eldar have the edge over Orks (to which I would probably agree guardedly. If the generals are equally good it can still be an advantage to the Ork player if neither is too good. Orks are simpler to master the basics of then Eldar)

despoiler, I don't think horde orks can compete here. Neither math-hammer nor actual experience support it, but I'll go into a bit more detail:

The optimal ork horde is comprised of shoota boys. On foot, being able to double-tap what you're about to assault is the optimal build. When you put an ork horde on the table...they have a HUGE footprint. 30 boys next to 30 boys takes up an incredible amount of space; putting 1750 or 1850 worth of boys on your table for pitched battle takes up...pretty much the whole deployment zone. My point is that the counterattack isn't really viable. Picking one side of the board and assaulting up it really negates the ability of the rest of the horde to support what's under attack because of distance and model density on the table.

And for that single unit of trukk boyz vs. a 30 boy ork squad:

12 shots shooting: 4 hits, two wounds, two dead orks. 12 slugga boys assault 28 shoota boys. Since the slugga boys have furious charge, they strike before the orks they're assaulting.

Offense: 44 attacks. 22 hits. 11 wounds. 9.24 dead orks (10). That leaves you with 18 orks striking back.

Defense: 34 attacks. 17 STR3 hits. 5.61 wounds (6). 5 dead orks.

Statistically my nob will kill two orks and yours will kill one. Total tally for a single round of combat: You have 16 orks left and I have 6 orks left, and you've lost by 6. You're fearless and take 6 armor saves, losing 5 more. Its now 6 vs 10 for the next round of combat and we go simultaneously - you have 18 attacks and I have 15 attacks - pretty even. Think on that. 12 boys assaulted 30 boys and came out even.

Realistically, you might be using slugga boys on foot instead of shoota boys (god forbid), but tossing a second trukk boy squad into the mix to make it 24 vs 30 will end the debate, and again...there's simply too much model density and intervening terrain for the rest of the army to get into support - especially if the burna boys light up the next squad over - which will end the entire squad. In a straight head to head fight, dropping four squads of trukk boys against two 30 boy mobs and using the burna boys to eat up the next mob in line is pretty standard, and if the battlewagon can put 5-6 models under the template, multiple that by 15....chances are that the squad is done.

Having played tyranids and horde orks aplenty...I just can't take them seriously as a threat anymore. Burna boys really *are* that good against those two armies. Monstrous creatures, genestealers, horde orks...you name it - burna boys will deal with it.

Eidolon wrote:Nids seem like they might give this list issues. I could be wrong but that seems like a tough match up. Given the nature of the new codex with the rumored shooty abilities this kind of ork list might become a thing of the past

You are right here. I forget what weapon it is, but the 'nids have a weapon that can only do penetrating hits against open-topped vehicles. I've lost a few wagons in my time to this thing.

Not for long...with a nice unit or 2 of hive guard we will finally be able to open transports. Check out my list on page 1...I still think it has the capacity for serious damage, even if it's soon to be dated.

Dashofpepper wrote:despoiler, I don't think horde orks can compete here. Neither math-hammer nor actual experience support it, but I'll go into a bit more detail:

The optimal ork horde is comprised of shoota boys. On foot, being able to double-tap what you're about to assault is the optimal build. When you put an ork horde on the table...they have a HUGE footprint. 30 boys next to 30 boys takes up an incredible amount of space; putting 1750 or 1850 worth of boys on your table for pitched battle takes up...pretty much the whole deployment zone. My point is that the counterattack isn't really viable. Picking one side of the board and assaulting up it really negates the ability of the rest of the horde to support what's under attack because of distance and model density on the table.

And for that single unit of trukk boyz vs. a 30 boy ork squad:

12 shots shooting: 4 hits, two wounds, two dead orks. 12 slugga boys assault 28 shoota boys. Since the slugga boys have furious charge, they strike before the orks they're assaulting.

Offense: 44 attacks. 22 hits. 11 wounds. 9.24 dead orks (10). That leaves you with 18 orks striking back.

Defense: 34 attacks. 17 STR3 hits. 5.61 wounds (6). 5 dead orks.

Statistically my nob will kill two orks and yours will kill one. Total tally for a single round of combat: You have 16 orks left and I have 6 orks left, and you've lost by 6. You're fearless and take 6 armor saves, losing 5 more. Its now 6 vs 10 for the next round of combat and we go simultaneously - you have 18 attacks and I have 15 attacks - pretty even. Think on that. 12 boys assaulted 30 boys and came out even.

Realistically, you might be using slugga boys on foot instead of shoota boys (god forbid), but tossing a second trukk boy squad into the mix to make it 24 vs 30 will end the debate, and again...there's simply too much model density and intervening terrain for the rest of the army to get into support - especially if the burna boys light up the next squad over - which will end the entire squad. In a straight head to head fight, dropping four squads of trukk boys against two 30 boy mobs and using the burna boys to eat up the next mob in line is pretty standard, and if the battlewagon can put 5-6 models under the template, multiple that by 15....chances are that the squad is done.

Having played tyranids and horde orks aplenty...I just can't take them seriously as a threat anymore. Burna boys really *are* that good against those two armies. Monstrous creatures, genestealers, horde orks...you name it - burna boys will deal with it.

Most Ork hoard armys use a kan wall which you will usally hit first which gives the 30 deep mob behind them the actual charge. even with the boarding plank you might put down two kans per klaw but it would take every klaw in your army to kill them all and then youve lost your charge.

Grimgob wrote:

Most Ork hoard armys use a kan wall which you will usally hit first which gives the 30 deep mob behind them the actual charge. even with the boarding plank you might put down two kans per klaw but it would take every klaw in your army to kill them all and then youve lost your charge.

A kan-wall is a different army type than a green tide, which is what he was referring to. As for the Kan-wall, I'd be happy to smack my trukks and battlewagons into a kan-wall and beat up on them over my boarding planks. So I kill a bunch of kans and defuse a significant chunk of the orks, while I'm still in my trukks...and the ork response is going to be to...shoot at and assault my trukks? 6+ to hit, 6+ to glance...I'll take my chances. Even if I get dumped out of a couple of them, I'm going to get the charge next turn and I haven't lost my assault. The assault. THE Assault is the one where Ghazghkull declares the Waaaugh! and my army pours out of their transports and into the thick of it.

Anyway, I don't mean to get into theoryhammer here; there are some genuinely good things posted here, but Orks simply don't scare me.

I'm also surprised that no one has brought up a mech sisters list. Something like the following

HQ
1 Canoness w/ eviscerator, book of st. lucius
3 Celestians w/ bolters
2 Celestians w/ melta guns
1 Immolator w/ smoke, extra armor

1 Canoness w/ eviscerator, book of st. lucius
3 Celestians w/ bolters
2 Celestians w/ melta guns
1 Immolator w/ smoke, extra armor

Elite
3 Celestians w/ bolters
2 Celestians w/ melta guns
1 Immolator w/ smoke, extra armor

Troops
7 Battle Sisters w/ bolters
1 Battle Sister w/ heavy flamer
1 Battle Sister w/ flamer
1 Veteran Sister Superior w/ book of st. lucius
1 rhino w/ smoke, searchlight

7 Battle Sisters w/ bolters
1 Battle Sister w/ heavy flamer
1 Battle Sister w/ flamer
1 Veteran Sister Superior w/ book of st. lucius
1 rhino w/ smoke, searchlight

7 Battle Sisters w/ bolters
1 Battle Sister w/ heavy flamer
1 Battle Sister w/ flamer
1 Veteran Sister Superior w/ book of st. lucius
1 rhino w/ smoke, searchlight

7 Battle Sisters w/ bolters
1 Battle Sister w/ heavy flamer
1 Battle Sister w/ flamer
1 Veteran Sister Superior w/ book of st. lucius
1 rhino w/ smoke, searchlight

Heavy Support
1 Exorcist w/ smoke
1 Exorcist w/ smoke
1 Exorcist w/ smoke


The exorcists will sit at range and just start dumping 3d6 str8 ap1 shots into the trucks. If you do get close with some trucks the immolators, with their tl heavy flamer's, and all the melta weapons will down the trukk's that make it through and the sisters squad will mop up an ork trukk boyz mob that isn't in it's vehicle. This one would come down to alot of positioning and maneuvering for advantage.

Hammer heads....lots and lots of hammerheads.

1. Hammerheads....lol. Wait, hammerheads? Lol.

2. Sisters of Battle - I actually just fought these this past weekend.....in a list that looks a *LOT* like that one. I got first turn, and one exorcist died on turn 1 due to a deffkopta shooting and then assaulting its rear armor. Snikrot came out on turn2 and killed a second one. Those D6 missiles though....*shudders* I'd be curious to know what would happen if I hadn't gotten first turn. As it was, I rolled up and boarding planked 3-4 of his vehicles and disembarked them on turn 2, then followed up with a mopup operation turns 3-4. His Canoness met Ghazghkull on the Waaaugh! on turn 3, and didn't live despite the faith-based invul save.

Not saying that I can mop up sisters whenever I want, but at least I've played these a few times.

Dashofpepper wrote:despoiler, I don't think horde orks can compete here. Neither math-hammer nor actual experience support it, but I'll go into a bit more detail:

The optimal ork horde is comprised of shoota boys. On foot, being able to double-tap what you're about to assault is the optimal build. When you put an ork horde on the table...they have a HUGE footprint. 30 boys next to 30 boys takes up an incredible amount of space; putting 1750 or 1850 worth of boys on your table for pitched battle takes up...pretty much the whole deployment zone. My point is that the counterattack isn't really viable. Picking one side of the board and assaulting up it really negates the ability of the rest of the horde to support what's under attack because of distance and model density on the table.

And for that single unit of trukk boyz vs. a 30 boy ork squad:

12 shots shooting: 4 hits, two wounds, two dead orks. 12 slugga boys assault 28 shoota boys. Since the slugga boys have furious charge, they strike before the orks they're assaulting.

Offense: 44 attacks. 22 hits. 11 wounds. 9.24 dead orks (10). That leaves you with 18 orks striking back.

Defense: 34 attacks. 17 STR3 hits. 5.61 wounds (6). 5 dead orks.

Statistically my nob will kill two orks and yours will kill one. Total tally for a single round of combat: You have 16 orks left and I have 6 orks left, and you've lost by 6. You're fearless and take 6 armor saves, losing 5 more. Its now 6 vs 10 for the next round of combat and we go simultaneously - you have 18 attacks and I have 15 attacks - pretty even. Think on that. 12 boys assaulted 30 boys and came out even.

Realistically, you might be using slugga boys on foot instead of shoota boys (god forbid), but tossing a second trukk boy squad into the mix to make it 24 vs 30 will end the debate, and again...there's simply too much model density and intervening terrain for the rest of the army to get into support - especially if the burna boys light up the next squad over - which will end the entire squad. In a straight head to head fight, dropping four squads of trukk boys against two 30 boy mobs and using the burna boys to eat up the next mob in line is pretty standard, and if the battlewagon can put 5-6 models under the template, multiple that by 15....chances are that the squad is done.

Having played tyranids and horde orks aplenty...I just can't take them seriously as a threat anymore. Burna boys really *are* that good against those two armies. Monstrous creatures, genestealers, horde orks...you name it - burna boys will deal with it.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! I'm really mad, not beacuse of your statments, but beacuse of technical malfunctions that lead me to right this 3 times. It is considerably smaller then it used to be. Mabye that's a good thing.

Many people love shootas, I don't so my list will consist of mostly sluggas, since there are 4 mobs of 30, I'd say 1 would be shootas. And looking at your army across the table I'd put the sluggas in the front for sure. I'll mathhammer latter, now to tactics. First off my boys would not be unable to support one another, if you do as you say and double up on one group then another will sweep in and wreak revenge. Thus making it 60 vs 24, or as a total 120 vs 48. All of this is rendered moot by the arrangement of this hoard.

I have at my disposale 120 boys, in 4 groups, as you said this would cover a huge footprint, your lack of ranged blast templates would make me very happy indeed. Anywho in front of this hoard there would be two units of grots (62 models), this is my "buffer". To get to my boys you must go throught this. You have three options at this point.

1. You can shoot the crap out of the grots to remove them as a threat, mabye not a great plan as I;d reach you before they were dead. Then it's a numbers game.

2. You can assault the grots themselves. This would kill a feth load of grots, few of your boys, but they would stay, and hold you back. Probalbly, if they don't then you will be shot at (alot) then charged by the boys standing behind them. If they do hold you then I will charge you with the boys anyways, won't get to shoot you, but hey, you always get what you want. Once combat is joined shooting counts for very little, as your templates can't go through a combat.

3. You could always be sneaky, and try and ram your way through. Luckily for me I have this "buffer in your way. I no way do I expect it to actually stop your rampaging trukks. When you charge through my gorts they will probably fail LD (50/50) then I'll gobble a couple grots to keep em in line. To move out of your way they will litterly envolpe your trukk. At first this seems like nothing I mean what can grots do? Want they do do is stop you from disembarking, with a solid wall of boys in front, and semi-solid mass of grots on both sides, there is a very real risk of not being able to place 12 models within 2" of the trukk. Then you are stuck and will be charged. If you do get out you will be within 1" of my grots. You must charge them, but since my grots are in front of the boys, you can't charge right through them so they are not in combat. The combat that follows will be one-sided. But that's ok, I got plenty more grots. Anyways, you will either be stuck in combat with this tarpit, in which case I charge you with the boys behind the grots. Or you kill them all in which case I shoot you, then charge you.


Your template are a very real threat, but to get at the boys you will have to get very close, (due to the screening grots, then you kill some stuff, I retaliate resulting in a huge combat all over the board. The burnas are still a big threat, they simply would not kill enogh to equalise.

There would be CC by turn 2, and I simply have way more men. I'm not saying that there is no chance, simply that it would be a close game, and one that I think my vast numbers would give me an advantage.

Well that's my two cents. Hope you enjoyed it.

Despoiler, its really hard to theoryhammer a game out...but look man....

Either your grots are close to your orks or they are not.

1. If your gretchin are providing a close screen to your orks, then I can tank shock into them and kill one or both units of them in addition to a squad of orks via the burna boys per turn.

2. If your gretchin are providing a far screen, then I can burna the crap out of your gretchin and end them in a turn without fearing much reprisal from your orks.

All in all...like I said - the model density and the easy of maneuvering around a horde army simply make me unafraid of horde orks. I don't know where you get the idea that I'll charge into gretchin, get tarpitted and then suffer a countercharge? If 12 boys charge into 30 gretchin, they're going to get surrounded and mobbed; there isn't going to be room for a subsequent wave of orks counter-charge in and hit the boys. If you're playing a close screen, see point number 1. If I kill enough to open a hole, at the end of combat you still have to move into coherency and consolidate into base contact meaning that your boys still aren't getting into combat.

I'm not sure what to tell you, but I've played against some *very* good players who use horde orks and absolutely monstrously tabled them, repeatedly. I'm not sure there is anything you could possible do to convince me that horde orks are a threat to my mechanized orks, and I'd be willing to put any amount of money onto a game to prove it. =p

I love your dedication to your style. To adress the first point (not being able to charge past my clobbered grots) lets talk to the math.

12 boys charge (you said before that you would probably double up, but what ever, I'll stick with this)
44 attacks (nob come latter) 3+ hot hit
29.333333333333333333332 hits (lets round down shall we) 2+ to wound
24.166666666666666666664, since I get no save that means that that's 24 kills.

I have 7 models left, 2 rutherds, 5 grots. If you'd like we can figure out their counter attack, but that's not the point, I also would be any amount of money on being able to move past 7 models.

As for the rest, well I seem to be unable to convince you. All I can really add is that I have played mech orks with hoard orks (at 1000 points) but the tactic was the same, I won, I can't vouche for their skill. But that is so subjective that right right now it seems irrelavant. Again, I'm simpli saying that your list+my list, will not be a massacre in either dirrection.

While your math-hammering is sound...I thought I made it clear that I wouldn't disembark to pile into your gretchin. I'd flame them until they were gone.

Dashofpepper wrote:If 12 boys charge into 30 gretchin, they're going to get surrounded and mobbed; there isn't going to be room for a subsequent wave of orks counter-charge in and hit the boys. If you're playing a close screen, see point number 1. If I kill enough to open a hole, at the end of combat you still have to move into coherency and consolidate into base contact meaning that your boys still aren't getting into combat.

The idea of charging a unit, sticking to it through your combat phase and finishing it off in your opponent's is solid. It's a good idea, and probably the best outcome for any assault unit since it keeps you safe from shooting without impeding your movement.

... buuuut if you think the grots won't just run away after one round and leave you stranded, you're grasping at straws.

Even if they don't, it wouldn't work out that way. Here's an example, going off of the estimated 24 casualties above.

Orks charge! 6", you must make contact with as many models as possible. No bunching up to increase your chances of being surrounded.



Grots pile in. 6", making contact with as many models as possible and where not possible moving to a place they'd be able to make their attacks.



Orks swing! I pull as many grots that aren't in base contact as possible in order to minimize the number of pile in moves you get to make.



Now here's the important part. Only models that are no longer engaged make pile in moves, and you only must maintain coherency if you have to move (ie, you have 2 dudes from one squad stuck at opposite ends of a combat but still in base to base, they don't have to move for coherency). The player whose turn it is moves first (that's you) and you must make base contact with as many models as possible. After this, ONLY IF there are still enemy models unengaged do they pile in and then only the ones who aren't engaged.



So, the grots are supposed to wrap around... you? Look like kind of the opposite, lol.

While your math-hammering is sound...I thought I made it clear that I wouldn't disembark to pile into your gretchin. I'd flame them until they were gone.

With the one template hefting unit in your army. You put down one unit that's more threatening than anything else on the table, it will always die first. Not exactly something you can rely on.

Dashofpepper wrote:1. Hammerheads....lol. Wait, hammerheads? Lol.

2. Sisters of Battle - I actually just fought these this past weekend.....in a list that looks a *LOT* like that one. I got first turn, and one exorcist died on turn 1 due to a deffkopta shooting and then assaulting its rear armor. Snikrot came out on turn2 and killed a second one. Those D6 missiles though....*shudders* I'd be curious to know what would happen if I hadn't gotten first turn. As it was, I rolled up and boarding planked 3-4 of his vehicles and disembarked them on turn 2, then followed up with a mopup operation turns 3-4. His Canoness met Ghazghkull on the Waaaugh! on turn 3, and didn't live despite the faith-based invul save.

Not saying that I can mop up sisters whenever I want, but at least I've played these a few times.

What was the mission type against the sister's player?
There is just so much wrong with what you just said! Not on how you played it out but by the sister's player. The only time you have exorcists in front is if you are playing against someone with loota's. Did he know you had a kopta?

You either set up like this. Which means that snikrot and kopta's can only attack rhino's. With the vehicle but's touching the line.
ro i i i ro
ro x x x ro

or like this, if in a corner.

ro rp
ro i i i
ro x x x with the corner being here.

ro = rhino
i = immolator
x = exorcist
Only time you don't do that is if it's the scenario where you each have an objective in the middle. But even with that he shouldn't be allowing a charge from a kopter on turn 1.

grankobot, have you played as or against mechanized orks before? The scenario you just outlined is pretty much impossible.

A squad of orks gets out of a trukk and deploys within 2" of the vehicle - that's generally two inches deep making a semi-circle around the front of the trukk, or lined up against the side, or however you choose to get them out. A straight line across of 12 boys isn't physically possible. a squad of boyz dumping out of a trukk moving in to assault some gretchin is going to be 3-4 across and 3-4 deep, not 12 across in a rank. With a little simple maneuvering, you can even make it so that only one rank of boys (2-3 if you like) make it into base with the gretchin, and they have a 6" consolidate to try making it into base contact as much as possible. All I'm trying to say is that I've DONE this before, many times - I've played against Horde orks. Time after time. I appreciate the input for them and your thoughts on how they might give me trouble....but out of the armies that I can play time after time and absolutely thrash....I count both horde orks and tyranids among them. =p

This is the second time now you've posted a vassal scenario using completely unlikely scenarios - the previous one was a mechanized ork force running up the middle of the board pell-mell into a Tau gunline strongpoint on a field conveniently absent of terrain, with the orks conveniently making sure to optimize range against them for units firing on them....*laughing* Maybe you should stop with the Vassal layouts.

The point is not how the dudes are lined up against eachother. The point is that though you start with 30 grots, you end with 6 or 7.

6 dudes don't surround 12.

Anyway, other posts welcome!

I'm going to see if a friend of mine will assemble that space wolves list for a friendly game with me this weekend.

I guess this is simply a time when my experiences and your experiences do not match up. You claim to destroy ork hoards with your mech orks, I claim to destroy mech orks with my ork hoard. We've both explained our points and seem to disagree. Although at this point I considre the back and forth argument over (as we will have to agree to disagree) please refrain from being overly dismisive.

Anyways enogh of that, please tell us how your game goes, if possible right a report and post the link here.

I'm curious how my tau feeding frenzy army would work against you, I'm pretty sure it would come down to who got first turn but the army is basically as follows

HQ
Shas'el
Missile Pod
AFP
Plasma Rifle
HW drone controller
x2 shield drones
HW multi-Tracker
HW Targeting Array
Bonding knife

Shas'el
Missile Pod
Plasma Rifle
CIB
HW Drone Controller
HW Targetting Array
HW Multi-Tracker
Bonding knife

Troop
Fire Warrior x6
Devilfish
SMS
Disruption Pod

Fire Warrior x6
(steals Pathfinder fish)

Elites
Fireknife x3
PR/MP
Multi-Tracker
Teamleader
(first 'el attaches)

Firestorm x2
MP/Burst Cannon
Multi-Tracker
Team Leader
(2nd 'el attaches)

Fast Attack
Piranah x4
fusion blaster
flechette dischargers
targeting array

Piranah x4
Fusion Blaster
Flechette Dischargers
Targeting Array

Pathfinders x7
Devilfish
SMS
Disruption Pod

Heavy Support
Broadside x2
Team Leader
Bonding Knife
Advanced Stabilization System
HW drone controller
Shield Drone x2

Snikrot would eat my broadsides but probably not before they took out at least 1 of your BW (I would aim for whatever had the KFF in it) and then once my piranahs have your army suitably boxed in I can take them apart piecemeal. If you choose to charge the piranahs then the squad will most likely go poof.

I think it would be a lot of fun to find out what would happen though!

You run a Tau list....along the same lines that I do. Not quite the same but similar enough.

The problem is that even if the Tau go first...and despite the KFF, you markerlight away saves and de-mobilize even most of the army in turn1 and turn2...even if its an 1850 game and your first two turns put down an entire 1,000 points of my army....the other 850 points assaulting 1850 points worth of tau are enough to do the trick.

That's how bad they are in close combat.

grankobot wrote:But if you were playing the Tau it would be like the unstoppable force meeting with the immovable object and the world as we know it would cease to be, right?

Made me laugh so hard. Also I found it extra funny beacuse I was reading black library 5 minutes ago, and that is the exact line were I stopped.

with my 'crons i'd castle up with my monolith, snipe off some of those trukks with my destroyers and stop the wagons with scarabs and destroyer body lords with warsycths then rapid fire you off the table (gazz i'd pit with flayed ones and lord with gaze making you ld 6 and make you hit me on 6's).

grankobot wrote:But if you were playing the Tau it would be like the unstoppable force meeting with the immovable object and the world as we know it would cease to be, right?

Since you're such a fan of flamebait, and can't seem to help but attempting to drag threads down into the pits...I would respectfully ask that you stop posting in threads I've authored, or responding to my posts at all.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Since you're such a fan of flamebait, and can't seem to help but attempting to drag threads down into the pits...I would respectfully ask that you stop posting in threads I've authored, or responding to my posts at all.

What good is opening yourself to discussion if you're completely shut off to others' opinions? Every time somebody offers some solid, objective point, you pick at the little details and completely ignore the merit of their ideas.

For example, the images I posted with the grots. Yes, your boyz won't be lined up. If they are, if they're not, IT DOESN'T MATTER! The point is that anybody with half a brain can pull the correct models to keep your unit from being completely surrounded and "immune" to assaults. The idea that being in combat can reliably protect you from other assaults is total bull.

But you ignored that part, since your dudes don't deploy in a line, which doesn't make a difference at all. Focus on the superficial, completely miss the point.

lol.

grankobot wrote:IT DOESN'T MATTER!

Yeah, yeah it does. 7 models who actually maintain unit coherency (like the Grots in your picutre didn't), in that curved formation will make it difficult to Assault without fleet for extra distance, unless the mob of boyz is directly behind the Grots. Even then, you'll only get a few models into combat, and then you'll have wasted your charge bonus.

grankobot - I agree that you should stop trolling.

Ok granted you may have a strong urge to post, then go ahead and open your own thread and whine. If you seriously need to continue a discussion of your own, you are welcome to create a new topic for it and I am sure interested parties will participate.

You don't have to reply to my post, or this thread will turn into a flame war. JUST GO AWAY.

DarkHound wrote:

grankobot wrote:IT DOESN'T MATTER!

Yeah, yeah it does. 7 models who actually maintain unit coherency (like the Grots in your picutre didn't)

No, no it doesn't. You don't have to maintain coherency when you pull models. It's more than possible to pull them to keep your assault open enough to get some real swings in. If your opponents are telling you that you can't, you need to stop letting them bully you and actually try picking up a rulebook sometime. I suggest you start on page 12, unit coherency.

Does the fact that I'd rather get my point across than be polite make me a troll? Really? I'm a troll because I'm willing to point out when someone is flat out wrong instead of dancing around the issue?

Well then as long as I'm trolling:

Mech orks aren't competitive. Trukks are possibly the worst vehicle in the game. Boyz mobs are, in all forms, universally crappy. A nob with a boarding plank is NOT anti-tank. Any decent player with any (really, ANY) decent MSU shooting army will have its way with this army.

^--- those are facts. Get back to me in 6 months when you've been out-shot and out-assaulted a couple times by the new tyranids and blood angels.

grankobot, your point was made and disagreed with.

There are 4 pages of people posting their lists, their tactics for using them, and me asking polite questions, giving thanks for input, and having a good conversation to help me understand the potential weaknesses of my army.

Then YOU show up...as you do in so many threads, and when you post your own thoughts about how I'm going to get massacred, which I disagree with...you launch into personal attacks. You derail my thread. You post some pictures and start theoryhammering a game which is NOT what I wanted here. I've asked you to stop. I've asked you to stop posting. I tried changing the subject to put this thread back on track.

Now I've reported you for trolling. Please stop posting here. Please stop following me around the forums and attacking me. I don't need a stalker, and I'm rather feeling like you are one. You've made your point, I read it. Others read it too. You don't need to post again, please do not.

Telling you why you're wrong is not a personal attack. If you think it is, you seriously need to get over yourself. Perpetuating the the idea that bad armies somehow aren't is only bad for the hobby. Instead of getting offended by the facts, why don't you you abandon your sinking ship and try something that actually works for orks?

I don't need a stalker, and I'm rather feeling like you are one.

Refer to the above point. lol.

Thank you grankobot, we got your point, but we all know that you are NOOB in 40k - Yes we know.


Guys lets continue the discussion. :-). Btw, I am pretty positive the best way to ignore a troll is simply to IGNORE him.

My question to DashofPepper is :- How often did your kommandos + Snikrot impress you? I started off with them in my speed freak list, but later on discarded them.

grankobot wrote:Does the fact that I'd rather get my point across than be polite make me a troll? Really? I'm a troll because I'm willing to point out when someone is flat out wrong instead of dancing around the issue?

It doesn't make you a troll (by itself), although it does break the rules of Dakka. Be polite is rule number one, if I remember correctly.

Now, for your other points, I had always assumed units needed to maintain coherensy. Thank you for pointing that out. However, the point still stands that the grots in the way will reduce the number of models you can get into close combat. In that curved shape the pile in move will not particularly help your case.

EDIT: Right, back on topic then! Dash, I hope I'm not being needy, but how would you combat my list in the formation I wrote about. I don't have any armies near-by that play like yours, so I'd like to know incase I do run into one.

Davicus wrote:
Thank you grankobot, we got your point. Bye :-)


Guys lets continue the discussion. :-). Btw, I am pretty positive the best way to ignore a troll is simply to IGNORE him.

My question to DashofPepper is :- How often did your kommandos + Snikrot impress you? I started off with them in my speed freak list, but later on discarded them.

Honestly....I think if Snikrot never came onto the table, I would still take him. Snikrot isn't about what he can kill, or whether he gets his points worth, much like Ghazghkull isn't about whether you can kill 225 points of the enemy with him. Snikrot boiling onto the table and ravaging a unit or two is extra, and I'll take it, but his REAL purpose, and the reason he goes into my mechanized list as a basic requirement is to make people avoid the table edges. With Snikrot in your list, your opponent won't put their heavy weapon squad on the back edge. They'll move their heavy tanks around and get less shooting so that if Snikrot comes on, he'll need 4+ or 6+ to hit them. Once upon a time, I thought it was cool to not point out what Snikrot can do and try surprising people, but I think I get more value out of TELLING them that I have Snikrot so that they'll move forward towards the slavering maw of my mechanized orks.

Give him a try. Wander over to your opponent's side of the board and eyeball their rear units suspiciously and mutter under your breathe about Snikrot. There are games where my kommando squad (and Snikrot) never even get to fight anyone because even a 6" move and 6" deployment won't get him close enough from any table edge to hit anything. And that's OK! He served his purpose. Then there are games where Eldrad is sitting with a dark reaper squad sniping on the back table edge and you're like, "ohai....im in ur shrubberies eatin' ur Eldrad....nomnomnom"

A lot of people advocate Lootas as mechanized support, but I'm a firm believer in keeping my army together. I'm not ever going to voluntarily split up my army and let my opponent have it piecemeal. Putting a Loota unit on the back table edge, unsupported and by itself is begging for a fast attack, or an outflanker, or a template to come mulch it while the rest of the army is elsewhere. I can handle Snikrot in a mechanized list because he can stay with the army. Turn2, or 3, or whenever he comes out....I can bring him out in support of my army, where I need him to be, which makes him as mobile as the mechanized portion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarkHound wrote:

EDIT: Right, back on topic then! Dash, I hope I'm not being needy, but how would you combat my list in the formation I wrote about. I don't have any armies near-by that play like yours, so I'd like to know incase I do run into one.

I really don't want to get into how I'd fight everyone's army - I was just looking for notes on how people would beat my army so that I could look for things I haven't seen before, or consider strategies and such.

This thread is starting to generate a lot of Mod Alerts.

It seems as if there's a lot of good discussion going on here.

As someone pointed out earlier, keep it polite and on point.

Thanks.

DarkHound wrote:Alright, now this looks like fun. I'll admit, your list has me concerned, but I think I know how to beat it.

Sorcerer Lord Nikolii, MoN, Winds of Chaos, 150
Father's Envoy, the Great Unclean One (Greater Daemon), 100
7 Possessed Marines, Champ, Icon of Nurgle, Rhino, 277
7 Plague Marines, Personal Icon, 2 Meltaguns, Champ, Combi-Flamer, Rhino, 246
6 Noise Marines, Personal Icon, 5 Sonic Blasters, Blastmaster, Champ, Rhino with Havoc Launcher, 255
7 Plague Bearers (Lesser Daemons), 91
7 Plague Bearers (Lesser Daemons), 91
4 Chaos Bikers, 2 Meltaguns, Icon of Slaanesh, 172
2 Obliterators, 150
Predator, Lascannon Turret and Sponsons, 165
Defiler, TL Heavy Flamer, CCW, 150
1847

All I have to do is keep your hammers away and I can weather the storm. Castle up to keep Snikrot at bay and blow Gazzy's wagon away. He won't be making it to combat until turn 4 with Slow and Purposeful. I'll keep the Burna Boyz away if I can, but that is less important. My Possessed, Plaguers and Defiler can ward off 4 Trukk Mobs, especially if I pull the Rhinos in a semi-circle. Of course, my strategy will change dramatically if I get Furious Charge on my Possessed and the Greater Daemon on turn two, but so long as I can keep Ghazzy and the Burna Boyz away I am golden.

Rough and ready thoughts on how I'd try beating you if you use this list and castle up...

I think I'll make it across the table pretty unscathed against that shooting. Turn2 I'm going to nestle up against your rhinos (and your defiler if I can) and send nobs on boarding planks over to beat on them. I'll pop a few. The following turn you've got nowhere really to move, but you're going to lay into my vehicles and probably disembark a chunk of them. I'm going to make sure to disembark as far away from you as possible using my wreckage and craters for cover so that you can't charge me. Then, my next turn I'm going to reposition any remaining vehicles, dump out their contents for a charge, declare a Waaaugh!, and send my army smashing into your castle. There are some ideal matchups there:

Ghazghkull vs your Defiler (or greater demon, or....anything really)
Burna boys...whether they would stay in a battlewagon and drop 15 templates on you or get out and assault depends on if their battlewagon is alive, positioning of models...etc. Burna boys are great for eating obliterators too. =p
My boys would smack into your plague bearers or less scary marines - depends on what's on foot, and a lot of other things.

That's the premise though - turn 1 crossing the board, turn 2 assaulting your vehicles from inside my vehicles, turn 3 assaulting your non-vehicles with my non-vehicles.

Dashofpepper wrote:Honestly....I think if Snikrot never came onto the table, I would still take him. Snikrot isn't about what he can kill, or whether he gets his points worth, much like Ghazghkull isn't about whether you can kill 225 points of the enemy with him. Snikrot boiling onto the table and ravaging a unit or two is extra, and I'll take it, but his REAL purpose, and the reason he goes into my mechanized list as a basic requirement is to make people avoid the table edges. With Snikrot in your list, your opponent won't put their heavy weapon squad on the back edge. They'll move their heavy tanks around and get less shooting so that if Snikrot comes on, he'll need 4+ or 6+ to hit them. Once upon a time, I thought it was cool to not point out what Snikrot can do and try surprising people, but I think I get more value out of TELLING them that I have Snikrot so that they'll move forward towards the slavering maw of my mechanized orks.

Dash, isn't that counter productive? You need the enemy to spread out so you can force a refused flank. A castled army puts a serious damper on your plans, and Snikrot forces them to castle. I'd probably take Zagstruk instead. It'll make him have to cover his heavy weapons teams the same way, but allows him to spread out.

EDIT: I'd argue that my long ranged fire is good enough (including the Melta Bikers). So I guess that'll make or break the deal. I just wanted to know how whether or not you'd change your plan, which apparently you won't. As soon as I get some money (and freedom) I'd love to head out and test it against you.

Dashofpepper wrote:Anyway, other posts welcome!

I'm going to see if a friend of mine will assemble that space wolves list for a friendly game with me this weekend.

I hope you manage to get this done. I look forward to your batrep.

Hopefully, you can get more than just one game in.

Just out of curiosity Dash, how would you get around the piranha wall? Barring deff rolla shinanigans I'm not sure you would even really be able to bring 850 pts to bare on my army. If my math is correct I have about a 60' wall to quarter you off with.

I know you have a Tau army and are much more experienced than me using them (I just got my army together 2 weeks ago lol ebay ftw!) so I'm curious what kind of problems you've run into facing speed freak orks such as your army.

If you were running lootas I could see my problem but with Snikrot as the only thing against my backfield I'm just not sure it would be as easy to catch/kill my guys after I've dismantled your transports.

@Darkhound: Snikrot would make YOU castle up, but that doesn't seem to be a prevailing trend. Keep in mind that 2/3 of games are objective based, and a tight castle either has to sit tight and ignore the objectives, be a moving castle bi enough to secure multiple objectives, or break up to go get objectives. Something for you to ponder....I always place objectives as close as possible to other objectives. If we're playing seize ground, I place mine 12" away from the one you just placed, and so on. In capture and control, I place mine at the edge of my deployment zone as close as possible to yours. I'm always trying to make a centralizing killing zone where my whole army can go and cause maximum damage. Anyway, in my experience Snikrot tends to make people avoid table edges, but that's not synonymous with castling up.

Also on the face of it...it would seem like taking zagstruk would force the enemy to spread out to cover ground and deny a drop zone....and while 40k *is* a game of dice, there's too much chance there for my tastes. I've used Zagstruk. In fact, Zagstruk and his 20 Stormboyz are the only unit in my ork army that are professionally painted (waves to Hulksmash). I need to play with him more to get comfortable with where he might fit in, but I originally had a lot of waffling back and forth about Snikrot vs. Zagstruk, and I ended up choosing Snikrot because of the certainty of where he'll come out. Zagstruk is difficult. The fact that you have 21 models that need to be placed without mishap, combined with the fact that the unit needs to deepstrike within 6" of an enemy unit, combined with the scatter being 2D6....its a very risky unit. I've been shying away lately.

Melta bikers don't scare me so much...a lot of folks around here have bikers in their army, and I quite often see people sending melta bikes in a wide circle around me to prep for some melta nuking. However, nobody expects the spanish inquisition! And even when you tell someone that your orks can cover and assault 28" in one turn, its still a hard thing to visualize; it goes against the grain of the rest of the 40k armies. You're either going to put your bikes outside my assault range, in which case they won't be in melta range, or you're going to put your bikes inside my assault range for a next turn melta hit, and get assaulted before you get to use them. I keep my army together....but a unit of 4 bikes cruising around by itself will get a trukk full of boys to split off and go assault it.

I think the real strength of my army is (I've said this a bunch here already) that *I* decide where the fight is. *I* decide how many units are involved. There are advantages to controlling the battlefield, which is what I'm always aiming to do. Making my enemy continually try reacting to me, with the initiative in my favor. None of this was a "I'd stomp your army" because I haven't played you or that army. =p
-------------------------

@MrDrumMachine: I'll be honest, I've never played with or against a piranha wall. Plenty of Tau armies have a couple of them, but never a solid wall of them. I can't really answer your question on this one. As ork trukks well know, AV10 can be killed by pretty much anything, and every ork vehicle has at least one STR5 big shoota, and if you're in range to try the melta, you're also in range to get hit with a boarding plank and a fusillade of small arms fire by the passing mob....then again, the board layout determines much; slowing down enough to shoot pistols out of my vehicles has a cost to itself, and I'd likely just run up to your piranhas and throw powerklaws on them on my way by.

The real weakness of Tau against mechanized orks is the KFF with the 4+ save. When I'm playing Tau and my wife is playing mechanized orks, and she's listening to my tactical advice....they ALWAYS reach me. With a static gunline and ridiculous amounts of firepower pouring into them, you simply can't disembark an entire ork army in one turn. After that, it gets into positioning, meatshield units, crisis suits, whether Farsight is in the army...it gets ugly.

So that's my answer to you: As a Tau player, my problem with speed freaks is that no matter how much fire you pour into them, some will still make it to your lines. I'ma big advocate of meatshield firewarriors (not kroot) who can pour out a bunch of 30" firepower before getting assaulted - you can box in half your army with a single squad of firewarriors, and blunt that ork charge - limit it to a single squad of firewarriors (which in turn puts them out int he open for a next turn barrage of fire)....but its ugly going no matter how you spin it.

Sometimes reserving large chunks of your army and giving first turn to mech orks is a good strategy. It's a horrible waste of 255 points if Snikrot comes in at the top of turn 2 and there's nothing worthwile to assault. You can also get a late game win/draw by using a fast moving outflanker to contest or possible hold an objective.

olympia wrote:Sometimes reserving large chunks of your army and giving first turn to mech orks is a good strategy. It's a horrible waste of 255 points if Snikrot comes in at the top of turn 2 and there's nothing worthwile to assault. You can also get a late game win/draw by using a fast moving outflanker to contest or possible hold an objective.

I also particularly like this strategy because it lets me cross the table unmolested while large chunks of reserves can't bring guns to bear on me.

Dashofpepper wrote:
@MrDrumMachine: I'll be honest, I've never played with or against a piranha wall. Plenty of Tau armies have a couple of them, but never a solid wall of them. I can't really answer your question on this one. As ork trukks well know, AV10 can be killed by pretty much anything, and every ork vehicle has at least one STR5 big shoota, and if you're in range to try the melta, you're also in range to get hit with a boarding plank and a fusillade of small arms fire by the passing mob....then again, the board layout determines much; slowing down enough to shoot pistols out of my vehicles has a cost to itself, and I'd likely just run up to your piranhas and throw powerklaws on them on my way by.

The real weakness of Tau against mechanized orks is the KFF with the 4+ save. When I'm playing Tau and my wife is playing mechanized orks, and she's listening to my tactical advice....they ALWAYS reach me. With a static gunline and ridiculous amounts of firepower pouring into them, you simply can't disembark an entire ork army in one turn. After that, it gets into positioning, meatshield units, crisis suits, whether Farsight is in the army...it gets ugly.

So that's my answer to you: As a Tau player, my problem with speed freaks is that no matter how much fire you pour into them, some will still make it to your lines. I'ma big advocate of meatshield firewarriors (not kroot) who can pour out a bunch of 30" firepower before getting assaulted - you can box in half your army with a single squad of firewarriors, and blunt that ork charge - limit it to a single squad of firewarriors (which in turn puts them out int he open for a next turn barrage of fire)....but its ugly going no matter how you spin it.

The 2nd paragraph is pretty much why I think it would come down to who got the 1st turn, if I could put the KFF on foot then I think it would be possible to pick off the rest of your vehicles between 2-4 a turn, and while I completely agree a gunline of Tau is horrible, the only 2 static units I have would be a squad of pathfinders and my broadsides. If I were to get first turn I'd have a fair shot of taking out both BW with them before snikrot eats their lunch.

Plus I'd have 2 squads of 8 drones to both force pinning checks on disembarked 12 man units of orks and act as speed bumps for the other portions. If you took first turn then not only would you get 13-19' closer to me before I start separating your army but I might not even take down 1 BW with my broadsides before they're just wrecked.

Lots and lots of variables for sure! I think it would be a lot of fun and if you get the chance maybe you could play your wife with my list and see how it works? Of course if you don't have the piranhas then it wouldn't work, but also remember the front armor on the piranha is 11 which would make it that much more difficult for your pot shots and big shootas.

Thanks for the response though!

I find an extremely wonderful response to broadsides is a turn1 assault from a Deffkopta unit.

Dashofpepper wrote:I find an extremely wonderful response to broadsides is a turn1 assault from a Deffkopta unit.

QFT

Since GW boards are so small it is nye impossible to avoid a turn 1 attack. Even if they don't kill your broadsides then they at least stop them from shooting. Basicaly a 48" assault range is hard to hide from. (24" scout movement, 12" move phase, 12" assault, plus you get to shoot, not that it will do anything, but hey, we can try.) I kinda missed this part on the thread so I'll ask now. Snikrot????? As a terror weapon I have found him effecitve, combatively, not as good as outflanking deth koptas, IMHO.

If you're asking me about Snikrot...just scroll up a bit.

I use both Snikrot and a Deffkopta or two.

In the case of the broadsides, a turn1 deffkopta assault to tie up the broadsides until Snikrot can enter the board and finish the unit off. Whether the deffkoptas start on the table or in reserve pretty much depend on whether I roll for 1st or 2nd.

I thought deffkoptas only got a 6" assault???

quite an army list you got going there, its only real weaknesses are an endless horde, or some anit-tank units with some range... .ad 4 playing DE? well i know to many tatics abount feilding them 4 my own good. they are at their best when you concenterate all your force on one target at a time. keep 'em moving and crush your foe utterly PM me 4 more DE stuff... I KNOW TO MUCH ABOUT AN ARMY I DONT PLAY

Hmm... Let me post my list then think about it.

Fortuneseer w/ RoWarding
Yriel
10 Warlocks
4 Singing Spears, Emboldenx2, Enhance
Serpent w/ ShuriCannons
Spirit Stones

5 Dragons
Serpent w/ ShuriCannons
Spirit Stones

5 Dragons
Serpent w/ ShuriCannons
Spirit Stones

5 Dire Avengers
Serpent w/ Brightlances
Spirit Stones

5 Dire Avengers
Falcon
Holo-Fields, Brightlances
Spirit Stones

3 Warwalkers
w/ 2 ScatLasers Ea.

3 Warwalkers
w/ 2 ScatLasers Ea.

First, kudos on your list, looks real solid. As for this list, I would probably suicide bomb your deffrollas with my dragons, or, if I could snipe them beforehand with my serpents, more power to me. Crippling your transports with my warwalkers, outflanking(maybe hiding behind some junk). My council would probably sit their serpent bridging two objectives(if its KP ill just gun for your Ghazghkull, I like a challenge .)Focusing on crippling/slaughtering your troops would be my #1 priority, keeping your entire force at arms length with my speed. My falcon would probably chill out on a home objective. That's what I would do, hope it helps you, that is how I would "beat" it.

grankobot, please stop corrupting the internet... with your stupid...

Dashofpepper wrote:In the case of the broadsides, a turn1 deffkopta assault to tie up the broadsides until Snikrot can enter the board and finish the unit off. Whether the deffkoptas start on the table or in reserve pretty much depend on whether I roll for 1st or 2nd.

But that's assuming your opponent leave the broadsides open for you to do that. If you as a Tau player yourself know you won't make that mistake, what makes you think your opponent will?

Hey Dash, here are a few of the list's I currently run for local tourney's and normally do quite well with or that I'm currently building to run, I'll skip my 'nids since they are changing to soon for it to really merit discussion on

1) Imperial Guard: Had to drop a Colussus which I normally take as my 3rd HS Choice since it's 1850

HQ:
2xCCS Squads w/3 Melta and Chimera's w/HHF

Troop:
2xVet Squads w/2 Plasma, 1 Melta and Chimera w/HHF
2xVet Squads w/3 Melta and Chimera w/HHF
1xVet w/Demolitions and 3 Flamers

Fast Attack:
Vendetta

Heavy Support:

2xLeman Russ w/HHB and HB Sponsons
1xDemolisher w/Lascannon
1xDemolisher w/HHB

The trick naturally is to use any speed I have to dismount you. The Vendetta, due to it's scout move will normally have an excellent shooting position for either side BW armor or more than likely a Trukk. If you run it in a tight group it gives my scatter on my big guns a good chance to pick up a truck or BW before you get to combat. Everything in my army moves and keeps it's shooting solid. As soon as your walking against guard your toast so that's where the focus would be. Naturally scenarios, 1st turn, terrain, and deployment would be taken into account.

2) Space Wolves:

HQ:
Rune Priest w/Living Lightning (D6 St7 Shots), and Murderous Hurricane

Elite:
5xWG in TA w/2 WC, 2 C-Melta, 2 SS, Cyclone
Dreadnought in a pod w/Heavy Flamer, AC
Dreadnought in a pod w/Heavy Flamer, AC

Troop:
1x8 GH & 1 WG w/melta, MotW, Power Weapon, Powerfist&Combi-Flamer on WG, Drop Pod
2x9 GH & 1 WG w/melta, MotW, Power Weapon, Powerfist&Combi-Flamer on WG, Rhino
2x5 GH & 1 WG w/melta, MotW, Power Weapon on WG, Razorback w/HB

Heavy:
5 Long Fangs w/4 Missile Launchers

Same Style as before except that I don't actually mind when you assault me since most of your boys will disappear along with my boyz The Drop pod assault will also cause you to decide what you want to go after. Either giving me another turn with missile launchers or leaving my troops in your back field. Granted i've only given this list a single shot so far but it seemed like a solid set-up. It mixes up a lot more at 2k but 1850 is much harder for me for some reason

I've also got a my gk's which would be a narrow fight since I've got 2 LR's but since they lose 2 games in 3 for me I don't really field them or feel like typing up the list.

Like everyone has pointed out your biggest problem is if someone manages to stay concentrated or if they manage to disrupt your mobility. It's a solid build and a modified one that I used to run thru 4th and at the beginning of 5th before I hung up my Orks. I'd say even 'nids would have an excellent chance against this list since when you mass charge you hit gaunts and those will dissolve (due to no retreat wounds) leaving you open for counter attacks. One way i've seen this countered is to burn the guys in front and charge thru the gap but that only works if there is a single layer of gaunts. Just some more food for thought.

Just something id like to point out, you know you cant Waaagh with Ghazghkull on the first turn of the game right?
Incase there is a question, here is my support: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1810080_Orks_FAQ_2007_5th_Edition.pdf

You cannot Waaagh T1. Dash knows this (either that or he's got a split personality, seeing as how much he talks about a 28" threat range T2).

ah ok, guess i misread somewhere that he was T1 assaulting

That's another thing... He needs to be careful of getting too close on the Top of Turn 1 with Ghazzy. If I get the chance to can hit him with before he can get his 2+ Invulnerable, I'm going to jump on it and try and down him. However, I don't really see Dash letting that happen. It's still something to keep in mind though.

TopC - from our private chat conversations, the T1 assault is restricted solely to the deffkopta(s). They have the ability to cross the table pre-game scout move, and move into position for a turn1 assault. Yeah - Ghazghkull is my lovable turn2+ fuzzy stuffed animal.

Davicus wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:In the case of the broadsides, a turn1 deffkopta assault to tie up the broadsides until Snikrot can enter the board and finish the unit off. Whether the deffkoptas start on the table or in reserve pretty much depend on whether I roll for 1st or 2nd.

But that's assuming your opponent leave the broadsides open for you to do that. If you as a Tau player yourself know you won't make that mistake, what makes you think your opponent will?

It is not solely a matter of hiding them, a standard GW board is very short across, and your koptas can move that in a turn. 24" scout move, 12" move, shoot (just cuse you can), then 12" assault. That's the whole board, and they can start 6" in. Hiding is not optional. Someone said that assault is 6" for koptas. I don't think this is right, but even if it is, then it is still a 42" move.

You still have to be able to land within 6" of them. And that's assuming you can get within" 18" of them without being within 12" of something else on your scout move.

despoiler52 wrote:

Davicus wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:In the case of the broadsides, a turn1 deffkopta assault to tie up the broadsides until Snikrot can enter the board and finish the unit off. Whether the deffkoptas start on the table or in reserve pretty much depend on whether I roll for 1st or 2nd.

But that's assuming your opponent leave the broadsides open for you to do that. If you as a Tau player yourself know you won't make that mistake, what makes you think your opponent will?

It is not solely a matter of hiding them, a standard GW board is very short across, and your koptas can move that in a turn. 24" scout move, 12" move, shoot (just cuse you can), then 12" assault. That's the whole board, and they can start 6" in. Hiding is not optional. Someone said that assault is 6" for koptas. I don't think this is right, but even if it is, then it is still a 42" move.

There are ways to protect a unit beyond just deploying them far away, you know. You could use your minimum unit of 6 fire warriors to surround them, for example, and prevent them from being assaulted in turn 1. Properly placed kroot (just over 18" out) also protects them from anything that hinges on a scout move. With that in mind, here's why I don't think tying up broadsides on turn 1 is something you can force. There's always a way out - if you can make the assault, it's because the tau player let himself be boxed in.

You deploy first:

Deffcopta deploys center field, giving you the widest area of potential turn 1 assaults to cover. This is the most sensible deployment because, obviously, if you put down in a corner I can just deploy in the opposite corner and keep you faaaaar out of range. From the "center" point of your deployment (12" in, 3' on either side) it's about 51 inches from you to either of my back corners. With the size of a broadside's base, you bring that down to 49. You can move 24" + 12" + 6" = 9 inches short. So you see, when you go first, your opponent can react to your deployment and put his broadsides outside of your deffkopta's range. Their 72" range means that you'd have to huddle in the opposite corner of the board with for that to be an ineffective deployment, but orks don't exactly win games by camping

The obvious answer to this is to bring more than one unit of deffkoptas. In that case, if it's just them and the broadsides you're pretty much guaranteed to catch them on turn 1 unless they reserve. Either way, no broadsides shooting on the first turn.

UNLESS

The tau player blocks them off with kroot. Broadsides go down on the board edge in the corner of their choosing, kroot deploy (if you are smart and put units on the corners) just 18 inches away from you which puts them ~16" out from the broadsides. You only need 24 kroot bases to form a line from one table edge to the other (each one occupies 5" of space - 1" base, 2" coherency on either side) so it's not like there are likely to be gaps. That's easily a part of any take all comers list, so not a problem (my 1750 list has 36 kroot bases). When making a scout move you can't end it within 24" of an enemy model. If I can deploy the rest of my army so that there's something within 12" of everywhere behind that line then you can't scout behind it. You'd be forced to end your movement 12" in front of it. That means on turn 1 you'll be ~28 inches out. That leaves you about 10 inches short. No dice.

There is a way you can counter this, but it's at a hefty trade off. Since you deploy first, you can take advantage of your unit of infiltrators to prevent the kroot from deploying far enough forward to block off your scout moves - that' right, you have to put snikrot down on the table. The horror, I know.

If you put Snikrot down within 18" of my broadsides, the kroot have to deploy alongside them instead of in front of them. This means you can end your scout move nice and close, well within distance of a turn 1 assault. The thing is, you have to commit your ambush unit to regular deployment. Is that worth it? I think it is, but it's not as simple a solution as you've been talking about in previous pages. You could always include a basic kommando unit, but that's straying into list tailoring territory which is not where you're going with this, yes? After all, aside from putting pressure on during deployment kommandos without snikrot are pretty much useless. It's not very likely that you'd include more than the one unit in any tournament list.

It's important to keep in mind that you have to dice for who gets to deploy infiltrators first if you both have them, you don't deploy in the same order as the rest of your army. Lots of people forget about this. The reason why it's important is that your counter completely relies on random chance - this is a very common theme with orks, and is another big reason why I'd never try to play the army competitively. Nobody likes to walk away from a game feeling like they lost because of one roll, right?

This all remains more or less the same if you go second, except that the broadsides will get to fire at least once and I can just throw kroot or whatever at your deffkopta. So, bottom line, you need turn 1 for this to work, you need to either be playing somebody who doesn't understand why deployment is important, or you need to change your game plan.

It's not as easy as "put down deffkopta, scout, win!"

I imagine the reason why you've had so much success with this strategy is because, like you said earlier, even though people know just how far your manz can cover in one turn it's hard to fully understand that and act around it. Lots of people don't really understand the importance of deployment entirely and just plonk their dudes down and go "ok, kill me!"

It's a shame, because I'm pretty sure the ones who don't realize how important deployment is for Tau are the ones who are crying about how awful the current codex is, just because they haven't expanded their game beyond the 3 phases of actual play.

I conceed that it is not a case were a turn one charge is impossible to avoid. I know that I stated before that it is, but there were a couple factors I did not consider. The first being the reduced assault range of dethkoptas. I know you said that spliting up the dethkoptas would increase the chances for a first turn strike, but I think that the odds are exellent, three deth koptas, one far left, one far right, one central. This covers pretty much all areas of the board in a "danger zone". Another advantage is that you must yield favorable positions to protect yourself, even if I don't reach you first turn, I still forced your placement of the Kroot, and made sure that your firing lanes were suboptimal.

As a side note does anyone have the exact dimantions of a standard GW board?

Erm....6' x 4' in Inches, that's 72" x 48"

despoiler52 wrote:three deth koptas, one far left, one far right, one central. This covers pretty much all areas of the board in a "danger zone". Another advantage is that you must yield favorable positions to protect yourself, even if I don't reach you first turn, I still forced your placement of the Kroot, and made sure that your firing lanes were suboptimal.

The thing about defending with the kroot is that it doesn't require me to overextend basically anything. That is their sole purpose in the army list - stand there and be in the way of your stuff. Kroot could have a stat line with nothing but 1s and they'd still be useful as long as they can infiltrate, because it allows you to control deployment and the early game. As for reducing the effectiveness of my firing lanes, this is the kind of thing you use to defend against fast moving junk. Trukks aren't going to be getting cover from me shooting over the kroot (and besides, they get it from the mek), and if you're on foot then I don't have much to worry about in the first place.

The whole thing costs like 120 points to do. 120 points to 100% protect my deployment zone from turn 1 assaults reliant on scouts. There aren't a lot of armies that can do that, and tau probably do it the best.

There's a more in depth explanation of this deployment strategy here:

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/06/follow-up-beating-outflankscout-tactica.html

and some pictures here (towards the end of the album):
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/06/valkyrie-scouting-pics.html

You actually prevent the assault just be strategic placement in your own zone, the use of terrain on a side, and the use of gun drones from vehicles effectively giving you a 0cost screen. By deploying correctly related to the given terrain you can effectively limit routes into your flanks as well make choke points that are easily restricted by 2-4 gun drones. cover isnt really an issues anyway..

Guess to me anyway, any intelligent tau player realizes that broadsides are an asset that DOES REQUIRE defense from other units for the first 1-3 turns to ensure that it gets some armor kills in. After that its fairly irrelevant to alot of tau players as they have fire knives/hammer heads to deal with the softer targets anyway..which if targets were prioritized should be whats left to deal with..

So kudos if your getting turn 1-2 assaults into broadsides... we need to get some vassal games goin if you wanna play i found a link where we can get the vassal 40K module to play

my two teef....
Squads of lootas would inconvenience your trukks I hope.
Squads of skorcha buggies would work pretty well against trukks as well (no cover saves from KFF)
30 man squads of shootaboys with big shootas might also work especially if there was a gretchen wall in front of them to slow them down. A battlewagon full of tankbustas might also slow your advance. Sure you'll assault them next turn and it uses up two heavy weapons slots but a strength 8 rokkit against your side armour is in with a chance. I don't know if a bombsqig counts as a shooting attack or an assault and is affected by KFF.
Heck, lets just use zoggy and turn ghazz into a squig. That would be funny. Also if he gets a zzapp result it might inconvenience a battlewagon.

To beat DoP's list I think I would take gunline Orks. 30 Lootas, 10 Tankbustas (3 bomb-squigs, 2 tankhammers) 3x3 kannons, a SAG mech, and several max-size shoota mobs, all castled up with a grot mob (including 3 Runtherds with grot-prods) surrounding them. I ignore the battlewagons first turn and try to blow up as many trukks as possible before you enter charge range. Once you do enter range you'll have to charge the grots, and on my turn I unload the Lootas and SAG on Ghazzy, then counter-charge Ghazzy with one or two shoota squads and the burnas with the rest. On turn 2 I also let loose my bomb-squigs and charge a BW with my Tankbustas.

If you tank-shock the grots aside, I'll do the best I can to place them in such a way that you have to assault them; then I'll charge the last unit to arrive, to keep them out of the melee going on inside my castle. The more of your boyz I can keep out, the better.

I don't have any idea how this would play out, really; I think I would win if I could crack 3-4 trukks before you got into assault range. With a SAG, 30 Lootas and 10 Tankbustas, that should be possible. The Glory Hogs rule won't really hurt me here because there will always be plenty of vehicle targets to pick from.

BeRzErKeR wrote:To beat DoP's list I think I would take gunline Orks. 30 Lootas, 10 Tankbustas (3 bomb-squigs, 2 tankhammers) 3x3 kannons, a SAG mech, and several max-size shoota mobs, all castled up with a grot mob (including 3 Runtherds with grot-prods) surrounding them. I ignore the battlewagons first turn and try to blow up as many trukks as possible before you enter charge range. Once you do enter range you'll have to charge the grots, and on my turn I unload the Lootas and SAG on Ghazzy, then counter-charge Ghazzy with one or two shoota squads and the burnas with the rest. On turn 2 I also let loose my bomb-squigs and charge a BW with my Tankbustas.

If you tank-shock the grots aside, I'll do the best I can to place them in such a way that you have to assault them; then I'll charge the last unit to arrive, to keep them out of the melee going on inside my castle. The more of your boyz I can keep out, the better.

I don't have any idea how this would play out, really; I think I would win if I could crack 3-4 trukks before you got into assault range. With a SAG, 30 Lootas and 10 Tankbustas, that should be possible. The Glory Hogs rule won't really hurt me here because there will always be plenty of vehicle targets to pick from.

the only down side i see is the 2nd BW, the one with the Burnas that would eat gretchen and boyz squad for lunch. other wise good plan. is this a Take all comers list? or a custom list just for DoP (The OP)?

poodle wrote:my two teef....
Squads of lootas would inconvenience your trukks I hope.
Squads of skorcha buggies would work pretty well against trukks as well (no cover saves from KFF)
30 man squads of shootaboys with big shootas might also work especially if there was a gretchen wall in front of them to slow them down. A battlewagon full of tankbustas might also slow your advance. Sure you'll assault them next turn and it uses up two heavy weapons slots but a strength 8 rokkit against your side armour is in with a chance. I don't know if a bombsqig counts as a shooting attack or an assault and is affected by KFF.
Heck, lets just use zoggy and turn ghazz into a squig. That would be funny. Also if he gets a zzapp result it might inconvenience a battlewagon.

Your two teef made me chuckle; how orkish.

And if Zoggy turned Ghazzy into a squig, I'm pretty sure that somehow, the universe would implode.

No, it would be the fiercest, kunniest squig the universe had seen!

Kaltak wrote:

the only down side i see is the 2nd BW, the one with the Burnas that would eat gretchen and boyz squad for lunch. other wise good plan. is this a Take all comers list? or a custom list just for DoP (The OP)?

I think the list I proposed would be an effective take all comers list. Here's an actual proposed army list;


Big Mek; 95
-shokk attack gun

15x Lootas; 225 (320)

15x Lootas; 225 (545)

10x Tankbustas; 165 (710)
-3x bomb-squigs
-2x tankhammers

30x shoota boyz; 220 (930)
-Nob w/PK, bosspole

30x shoota boyz; 220 (1150)
-Nob w/PK, bosspole

30x shoota boyz; 220 (1370)
-Nob w/PK, bosspole

30x gretchin 135 (1505)
-3x Runtherd w/grot-prod

3x kannons; 78 (1583)
-3x ammo runts
-3x extra krew

3x kannons; 78 (1661)
-3x ammo runts
-3x extra krew

3x kannons; 78 (1739)
-3x ammo runts
-3x extra krew

3x Warbuggies; 105 (1844)
-TL rokkit launchas


Since I had a few extra points I threw in the Warbuggies. They'll be pretty safe, since DoP has literally no ranged AT, and they can speed around behind and go for side/rear armor shots on his BW. DoP can either divert a trukk or two to try and plank them, which I'm happy with because it'll dilute the force of the turn 2 charge, or ignore them and hope I don't take something out. Then after the charge hits, they'll swoop in and try to force morale checks on depleted trukker squads.

I think in all honesty what the list suffers from is something a lot of the power builds do. Being a spam browbeater type list. If you dont know how to deal with it, you are going to lose. But anyone who has either an army built up that can combat this such as lots of mobile shooting (Eldar, tau), or just sheer numbers (guard, bugs, orks) can probably take it. In addition a marine or chaos list with some decent hand to hand could put the hurt on this army. Naturally mission, terrain, and most importantly player skill comes to mind.

The army relies on basic smashing the enemy turn 2. Just putting so many hits out there from boyz that the enemy cannot recover. Any army with the numbers to take this and hit back, the speed to just avoid receiving a decisive charge, or the sheer resiliency would be able to work wonders against this list. I played a 2000 point ork army at adepticon that was something like 150 shoota boyz and 45 lootas, plus a KFF big mek and I think gaz. That army would probably be able to mess up this list.

A mech vet guard army could be very painful. Multiple ranged shots to drop trucks and possibly wagons, and then they can just hide in the chimera wall, shoot, and once you pop the tanks you are getting shot up. I think that mech space wolves would be worse to face. 30 marine attacks on 12 boyz is never a good thing, and thats assuming the boyz havent been shot up before hand.

Finally I and others have been over why a speed list could take this apart. Shoot transports, run away, and win because orks arent as fast as tanks, and you army has zero ranged firepower.

I would recommend going for some more balance in the army. Maybe dropping the burnas for lootas.

Eidolon wrote:

I would recommend going for some more balance in the army. Maybe dropping the burnas for lootas.

That would unfortunately ruin the theme here. I do have Lootas, I love Lootas, and I use them....but not in a mechanized assault list.

One list that Im starting to see locally that might cause you problems would be IG gunline, with a couple vendettas.

With the pregame scout move a couple vedettas (each a single model squadron) would have very little problem getting side armor shots at the mek's BW. Three TL lascannons, two+ hits....ignore one due to cover still gives an almost guaranteed one side hit per vendetta. Str9 vs av12 plus open top gives a very high percentage that the mek is going to be on foot. The key point then is that once hes out of the BW the kff has a much smaller range, which will leave a good chunk of the truks with no cover save from all of that dakka.

If the IG go first, with a couple vendettas the ork army in all likelyhood is broken into two components, not a good thing. If the IG rolls slightly well they may even get a shot at both BWs.


A lot will depend on how popular the venedetta becomes, but its a ridiculously good vehicle for its cost and its incredibly shooty as well.



Sliggoth

Yep the KFF Mek is the Achilles heel. If you can dismount him early, your trucks are easy to take down. dismounting a few units first turn in order to break up the assault is going to be key against you. I think may mobile lists will be able to accomplish this, while those that are not are without an answer and get crushed.

Ya, but you don't know which vehicle the bigmek is in. You would have to shoot at one, damage it, then ask him to make sure that the bigmek was within 6" of it. Thus finding out. As for brezerkes list, I like it and think it would do well against the OP, I might consider swapping the SAG, I never get it to preform well, actually for me it norrmally scores really bad strength, scatters wildly, or blows itself and all around it up. Is there somewere else 95 points could be spent? A pair of warbugies with TLRL? then 15 points to buff up some upgrades, also defantly take out one rutherd and grot. As for the OP I think that a list of pros and cons is in order, and really when isn't it.

Pros;
-Really frickin' fast, turn two assault is very feasable.
-Covered desently by the KFF
-Compact, so it can assault specific sections of the enemy's army
-Lots of tough CC units that can be driven up pretty much anywere, also with a fair complement of PK

Cons;
-Lacks ranged anti tank weaponry
-Must get into combat quickly to be effective
-Relies on manuverability, that can be taken away against armies with lots of Anti-tank.

Pretty much it I think.

despoiler52 wrote:Ya, but you don't know which vehicle the bigmek is in. You would have to shoot at one, damage it, then ask him to make sure that the bigmek was within 6" of it. Thus finding out. As for brezerkes list, I like it and think it would do well against the OP, I might consider swapping the SAG, I never get it to preform well, actually for me it norrmally scores really bad strength, scatters wildly, or blows itself and all around it up. Is there somewere else 95 points could be spent? A pair of warbugies with TLRL? then 15 points to buff up some upgrades, also defantly take out one rutherd and grot. As for the OP I think that a list of pros and cons is in order, and really when isn't it.

Pros;
-Really frickin' fast, turn two assault is very feasable.
-Covered desently by the KFF
-Compact, so it can assault specific sections of the enemy's army
-Lots of tough CC units that can be driven up pretty much anywere, also with a fair complement of PK

Cons;
-Lacks ranged anti tank weaponry
-Must get into combat quickly to be effective
-Relies on manuverability, that can be taken away against armies with lots of Anti-tank.

Pretty much it I think.

Most tourneys don't allow closed lists.

despoiler52 wrote:Ya, but you don't know which vehicle the bigmek is in. You would have to shoot at one, damage it, then ask him to make sure that the bigmek was within 6" of it. Thus finding out. As for brezerkes list, I like it and think it would do well against the OP, I might consider swapping the SAG, I never get it to preform well, actually for me it norrmally scores really bad strength, scatters wildly, or blows itself and all around it up. Is there somewere else 95 points could be spent? A pair of warbugies with TLRL? then 15 points to buff up some upgrades, also defantly take out one rutherd and grot. As for the OP I think that a list of pros and cons is in order, and really when isn't it.

Pros;
-Really frickin' fast, turn two assault is very feasable.
-Covered desently by the KFF
-Compact, so it can assault specific sections of the enemy's army
-Lots of tough CC units that can be driven up pretty much anywere, also with a fair complement of PK

Cons;
-Lacks ranged anti tank weaponry
-Must get into combat quickly to be effective
-Relies on manuverability, that can be taken away against armies with lots of Anti-tank.

Pretty much it I think.

Well, I need an HQ. The other option would be a KFF Mek to give cover; not important against this list, but it could be against others.

I like SAGs; when they go wrong, yes, terrible things happen, but when they go right hot DAMN they go right. Nothing like dropping a small blast that removes EVERYTHING it touches on a squad of Assault Termies with a Librarian.

I'm sorry, closed list? I'd still say drop the SAG, most of the time the SAG makes me SAD, mabye something a little more reliable, warboss?

In a tourney, you know what your opponent's army is and what's where always.

This list has ABSOLutely no solution to NightBringer. I don't think I have to elaborate on this, do I?

Orkish wrote:This list has ABSOLutely no solution to NightBringer. I don't think I have to elaborate on this, do I?

Yes, because Ghazzy with a 2+ invul and 7 S10 attacks isn't going to hurt the Nightbringer. While that is the only thing in the army that can fight him Dash's build means that it is the only thing that will fight him.

Ya, ghaz on a charge will rip him a new one. One what I'm not quite sure, the night bringer's anatomy confuses me. Also even a regular PK nob can cause some pain, 4 strength 9 hits are nothing to be sniffed at. Can the nightbringer even sniff?

For the Night Bringer, 4 S9 hits are something to sniff at. The Nob will be lucky to score a single wound while the Nightbringer will drop his template and destroy any squad of boyz in a single phase. Ghaz is his only option, but it is enough.

Crap, well ya. OT, does zogwork affect him?

Nope, he isn't an Independant Character.

What???? how is he not an indepent character, I belive you, I'm just shocked. I thought he would have some kinda "I'm a god so %$#^ off" rule.

Orkish wrote:This list has ABSOLutely no solution to NightBringer. I don't think I have to elaborate on this, do I?

Every list has a solution to the Nightbringer... ignore him.

Sup phase out.

DarkHound wrote:

Orkish wrote:This list has ABSOLutely no solution to NightBringer. I don't think I have to elaborate on this, do I?

Yes, because Ghazzy with a 2+ invul and 7 S10 attacks isn't going to hurt the Nightbringer. While that is the only thing in the army that can fight him Dash's build means that it is the only thing that will fight him.

I believe the Nightbringer ignores all saves, even invulnerable ones.

His Nobz cant touch the Night Bringer because the boyz are base str3 - go look up NightBringer's abilities. Apart from his Ghaz who can detach and then charge the NightBringer, no one else in his army can go near the NightBringer. 1 - 1, Ghaz will on AVG dice rolls be beaten flat by the NightBringer.

For the naive ones who gave cute answers like "ignore the NightBringer", I bet you havent played or seen how the necrons will deploy.

On a positive note, I don't see Necron players very often in tournaments.

Orkish wrote:

For the naive ones who gave cute answers like "ignore the NightBringer", I bet you havent played or seen how the necrons will deploy.

Enlighten me.

"ignore him" isn't just me trying to be cute. It really is the best answer to dealing with him - kill everything else, he goes away.

If the Necron player doesnt deploy his warriors within 6 inches of his NightBringer, he is noob.

If you are trying to shoot his warriors to death and force a phase out with your orks, you are cute + noob.

Orkish wrote:If the Necron player doesnt deploy his warriors within 6 inches of his NightBringer, he is noob.

If you are trying to shoot his warriors to death and force a phase out with your orks, you are cute + noob.

Let's look at the rule you're talking about.

In the beginning of the enemy Assault phase, after moves have been made but before any blows are struck, the Nightbringer may harness its power to summon eheric winds which hurl its opponents away from it. Any enemy unit (not vehicles) with a model within 6" blah blah blah strength 4 2d6 pushback etc

Note how it defines who this power effects - ENEMY units within 6" of the nightbringer, and you use it after assault moves have been made. This means that in order to protect your units, you've got to have, oh, your entire army closer than 6" to the nightbringer in order to prevent your dudes from being charged.

So you bunch up your whole force and meanwhile the ork player is chilling in his vehicles, which you can't touch since your necrons. He realizes he can't assault you. However, your entire army is in one place. He has enough movement to tank shock you.

With every vehicle.

Going through every unit.

Of your not fearless army.

What's that, you can't pass 5-6 LD10 checks EVERY turn for EVERY unit in your army?

lol

Fetterkey wrote:I believe the Nightbringer ignores all saves, even invulnerable ones.

Oh blast, I forgot all about that rule. Stupid Warscythes. So, yes, infact this list has absolutely nothing that can beat the Nightbringer. I retract my statement.

While you can't ignore the Nightbringer, you can feed him and keep him content. I don't think Dash would have a problem against Necrons, but the Nightbringer is going to kill more than its share. Its just too little too late to prevent Phase Out.

grankobot wrote:Note how it defines who this power effects - ENEMY units within 6" of the nightbringer, and you use it after assault moves have been made. This means that in order to protect your units, you've got to have, oh, your entire army closer than 6" to the nightbringer in order to prevent your dudes from being charged.

So you bunch up your whole force and meanwhile the ork player is chilling in his vehicles, which you can't touch since your necrons. He realizes he can't assault you. However, your entire army is in one place. He has enough movement to tank shock you.

With every vehicle.

Going through every unit.

Of your not fearless army.

What's that, you can't pass 5-6 LD10 checks EVERY turn for EVERY unit in your army?

lol

I really LOL-ed at this.
Ok, my bad for not listening to previous advice - I should really ignore this troll. I don't think he is playing 40k .

I shant waste time debating about this, because I am now pretty positive you havent played against necrons. If you can drive your vehs through the monolith wall, then go ahead. But I play 40k, I don't know what you play though.

No wonder everyone calls you a troll... ...

I don't see how it's not valid advice?

First of all, by forcing yourself into a 12" diameter bubble you're severely crippled in one of the three missions. You have between 3 and 5 objectives on the table, but you can cover at most 2 of them with your castle. That's a problem for you.

How about the 2 objective mission? He can spend the whole game running from you and then cruise in to contest your objective while holding his. Because your nightbringer has to babysit your 'bots wherever they go he'll be free to munch on anything that strays too far. Either you wind up contesting your home objective at the end of the game or contesting your own. What's that, you say? "that's lame"? Well so is hiding in your deployment zone and doing nothing for a whole game.

Secondly, tank shock is a totally viable option to force your dudes out of formation. A LD10 unit will break something like 49% of the time if it's forced to make 10 LD checks. How many units do you have in that bubble? More than 2? Chances are, something will be chased out and will be free to be assaulted in the following phase. Even if you make all those morale checks, his trukks can take up enough space to completely force your army outside of your bubble of protection just by forcing them to stay more than 1" away from the trukks. Nothing you can do about that.

If you can drive your vehs through the monolith wall, then go ahead.

Multiple monoliths AND the nightbringer in one list? That's not an army you bring to a tournament, dude. Anything that can reliably kill oh, 5 or 6 necron warriors in one shooting phase will take you to town...

DarkHound wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:I believe the Nightbringer ignores all saves, even invulnerable ones.

Oh blast, I forgot all about that rule. Stupid Warscythes. So, yes, infact this list has absolutely nothing that can beat the Nightbringer. I retract my statement.

While you can't ignore the Nightbringer, you can feed him and keep him content. I don't think Dash would have a problem against Necrons, but the Nightbringer is going to kill more than its share. Its just too little too late to prevent Phase Out.

I also retract my statment, I hate playing against gods, my can't gork and mork be playable.

grankobot wrote:Multiple monoliths AND the nightbringer in one list? That's not an army you bring to a tournament, dude. Anything that can reliably kill oh, 5 or 6 necron warriors in one shooting phase will take you to town...

2 monoliths is enough to wall off a corner. The ork list has nothing to reliably take down 20-30 warriors.

Orkish wrote:

grankobot wrote:Multiple monoliths AND the nightbringer in one list? That's not an army you bring to a tournament, dude. Anything that can reliably kill oh, 5 or 6 necron warriors in one shooting phase will take you to town...

2 monoliths is enough to wall off a corner. The ork list has nothing to reliably take down 20-30 warriors.

So you sit in your corner and hope the other guy decides to come over and play.

KPs - draw

2 objectives - draw

multiple objectives - lose

That's not a strategy, that's just being a jerk. Why would you show up to play in a tournament and then spend your games.. not playing? lol

Thats being smart
If the ork decides to be smart alec and hug back, the necron player will happily do some free shooting for the first 3 turns. And any wreck result to the battlewagon will be a bonus

I ll be happy to meet a fool like you in tournament :-)

Orkish wrote:Thats being smart
If the ork decides to be smart alec and hug back, the necron player will happily do some free shooting for the first 3 turns. And any wreck result to the battlewagon will be a bonus

I ll be happy to meet a fool like you in tournament :-)

Longest ranged gun in your entire army is 36 inches. If the Ork player decides to chill in the opposite corner of the 6 x 4 board - well, you're screwed.

Jump out with heavy destroyers? They'll get assaulted. You lose the unit.

Make space to fire in between the monoliths? Orks stay out of range.

Abandon your castle and move into range? Uh yeah, that won't end so great for you

Stay in your castle, do nothing. Draw, draw, lose.

..

Orkish wrote:So you are saying if you hug back in your corner like a fool, the necron player is suppose to be as dumb as you and try shooting you from HIS corner? Cant he move forward and shoot depending on the situation?
Come on, quit trolling. Your answers are really, really dumb.

I have to agree with grankobot here. If you break castle against this KoS, you lose. Even I, with my CSM, wouldn't dare do it.

However, both of you need to stop flaming before the mods show up. The personal attacks are going to get the thread locked, and I rather like this discussion (save the last few posts).

I'm not trying to make it personal at all - just arguing my point. Everything I've said re: nightbringer nonsense has been a completely valid point from the PoV of Dash's army.

Unless saying "you're wrong" is making it personal and if it is then why even have a discussion?

I ll juz have to stay 30-36inches away. If his trukks can move flat out and 18inches, and then waaagh + assault, then yes I lose :-)

See, here's the problem with that. You can only "face" one direction with your monoliths guarding your army - they just don't have the coverage necessary to protect you from tank shocking without the help of board edges. Like I said earlier, if you stick to a board edge it turns into a denial game and you literally can't do better than draw. That's not a game plan, that's just lame.

If you do try to move up to shooting range you've got to expose a flank. With 2 battlewagons and 5 trukks you bet your ass it's going to have pressure put on it. Orks split their forces in each corner during deployment (yes, one of them will lose out on the cover save. big deal, necron shooting. ) and roll up on the flanks. What do you do then? Guard left, they come right. Guard right, they come left. Point your monoliths at the opposite corners with just little enough space that a trukk can't fit and you delay them maybe an extra turn of movement to roll up behind you.

The idea behind this strategy is a tiered defense. I get that - here's a wall, you've got to get by it to get to the rest of my guys. It's a strategy that works for lots of armies, but necrons aren't one of them.

You don't have the firepower to make an extra turn of shooting worth it. That's not to say that Necrons can't have "decent" firepower vs light vehicles, but those come from heavy destroyers. You can fit one unit in an army with 2 monoliths. Refer back to: not enough firepower.

Your "wall" is ridiculously expensive. 830 points of "guarding" units? Where's the rest of your army? You've got no punch, which means that although you can be very survivable you can't actually win the games unless your opponent feeds you just enough of his army for you to handle at once.

And finally... you're going to have a very very slim model count. That means your opponent will control the field and you'll be PERMANENTLY on defense. He can put pressure on you however he wants, which means that if has the power to break even one of your units you lose. If he's got ordnance templates, you lose. If he's got stronger than S3 assault troops... you lose.


I understand this thread is about dismantling Dash's army, but when it comes down to it this is list tailoring on a ridiculous level. With a nightbringer and 2 monoliths for the purposes of protecting your dudes from assault you're over 800 points in the hole already? That's a serious handicap against, well, any shooting army or any assault army with a majority strength of 4 or better which is pretty much everyone except for orks.

Not something you'd bring to a tournament.

DarkHound wrote:

Orkish wrote:So you are saying if you hug back in your corner like a fool, the necron player is suppose to be as dumb as you and try shooting you from HIS corner? Cant he move forward and shoot depending on the situation?
Come on, quit trolling. Your answers are really, really dumb.

I have to agree with grankobot here. If you break castle against this KoS, you lose. Even I, with my CSM, wouldn't dare do it.

However, both of you need to stop flaming before the mods show up. The personal attacks are going to get the thread locked, and I rather like this discussion (save the last few posts).

I ll juz have to stay 30-36inches away. If his trukks can move flat out and 18inches, and then waaagh + assault, then yes I lose :-)

I do have very little patience against trolls, especially when it comes to talking about how to play orks.

What about necron destroyer swarm? That could cause some serious issues for this army

Eidolon wrote:What about necron destroyer swarm? That could cause some serious issues for this army

That might win, actually, for the same reasons Mechdar would: mobile firepower. It'd still depend greatly on how many transports he could disembark on turn 1.

I could see something like this being potentially effective:

Destroyer Lord, Orb, Staff - 170

5 Destroyers - 250

5 Destroyers - 250

10 Scarabs, Disruption Field - 160

10 Warriors - 180

10 Warriors - 180

6 Immortals - 168

6 Immortals - 168

2 Heavy Destroyers - 130

2 Heavy Destroyers - 130

That's 1786 so can easily be trimmed down (drop some scarabs) to 1750 or scaled up (add some tomb spyders to create a fire magnet with the lord maybe?) to 1850.

Scarabs line the frontage of your destroyer wing vs assaulty armies, turbo boost and tie crap up vs shooty armies, and generally be a pain with their ridiculous cover saves. Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers form 2 lines on each side of the lord, just behind the scarabs. Immortals and warriors go behind that, or camp on your objective. Heavy Destroyers deploy on the flanks and take advantage of the battlewagons' long av12 sides.

Everything is redundant to take advantage of nearby units to avoid being stranded for WBB rolls. Think of it as a mobile castle. Only one unit in the army that can't roll for WBB, phase out number is 35ish.

Still not very likely that you can break your opponent's mobility before he hits you and once he does you're boned. Sadly, this is about as good as Necrons get. They were written for 3rd edition and their dated-ness is showing badly.

Deceiver-300

5 Destroyers - 250

5 Destroyers - 250

5 Destroyers - 250

11 Warriors - 198

11 Warriors - 198

2 Heavy Destroyers - 130

2 Heavy Destroyers - 130

2 Heavy Destroyers - 130

Ive considered running a list like that before. Mobile pew pew out the ass

Basically rush one flank, immobilize everything, try and to the same to the other. And then just pick off boyz. I think that list if commanded by a good necron player would give an ork list like Dash's fits. Not like hes going to shoot the deciever to death and that guy can just avoid combat.

doesn't the necron player still have to deal with that 4+ cover save thanks to the KFF. Would the warriors get WBB against the burnas if they were used as power weapons? A tarpit and a mobile shooty army are certainly going to be problematic for an assaulty army though. I don't knowenough about Necrons apart from that WBB roll is pretty irritating and monoliths are phenomenal.

poodle wrote:doesn't the necron player still have to deal with that 4+ cover save thanks to the KFF. Would the warriors get WBB against the burnas if they were used as power weapons? A tarpit and a mobile shooty army are certainly going to be problematic for an assaulty army though. I don't knowenough about Necrons apart from that WBB roll is pretty irritating and monoliths are phenomenal.

tri Monolith would work gloriously against this list, but little else. Yes he still gets the 4+, big deal. 5 destroyers are gonna put a statistical 5 damage results on a tank. Lets say he rolls hot and thats 2 damage results on each of 3 trucks from the 3 destroyer squads. With an open topped vehicle the chances of it at least being immobile are great. In addition theres the wagon which will get hurt by side shots from the 6 destroyers, putting another statistical 1 damage result through the armor of a single wagon.

Its not a promise of victory, but he better hope that the cron player rolls bad for stopping that armor rush. The warriors are just there to be troops and play clean up on boyz squads.

Necrons might be able to crush this list, but necrons are no longer viable in 5th ed.

I would discount any specific build that can beat this army.

Pepper is looking for more of an all-comers army to test against.

We did suggest lists that are all comers, such as mobile shooty, and various kinds of hoard

imweasel wrote:Necrons might be able to crush this list, but necrons are no longer viable in 5th ed.

I would discount any specific build that can beat this army.

Pepper is looking for more of an all-comers army to test against.

A lot of us have already provided him with our all comers builds, and what they could and couldnt do to beat him. And the necron list I posted is a fairly common necron one.

grankobot wrote:If you do try to move up to shooting range you've got to expose a flank. With 2 battlewagons and 5 trukks you bet your ass it's going to have pressure put on it. Orks split their forces in each corner during deployment (yes, one of them will lose out on the cover save. big deal, necron shooting. ) and roll up on the flanks. What do you do then? Guard left, they come right. Guard right, they come left. Point your monoliths at the opposite corners with just little enough space that a trukk can't fit and you delay them maybe an extra turn of movement to roll up behind you.

You seem contradictory to yourself. So are you hugging back at one corner or are your splitting your forces? You seem to have suggested both, changing your stance every now and then. If you are splitting your forces, I am pretty sure the Necron player has 36 inch of range to the shorter side There is no need for the Necron player to try to shoot to the opposite corner. All he have to do is shoot the closest threat. If EVRYONE is more than 30 inches away, then there isnt really any harm moving up and breaking up the wall slightly. You don't seem to be a very flexible person when it comes to playing 40k...

If Necrons hugging back is lame, then I don't know what to say about the ork player who does the same thing.

Eidolon wrote:

imweasel wrote:Necrons might be able to crush this list, but necrons are no longer viable in 5th ed.

I would discount any specific build that can beat this army.

Pepper is looking for more of an all-comers army to test against.

A lot of us have already provided him with our all comers builds, and what they could and couldnt do to beat him. And the necron list I posted is a fairly common necron one.

I guess more ideas are better than none. I guess if the mech ork list can't handle necrons...

Davicus wrote:

You seem contradictory to yourself. So are you hugging back at one corner or are your splitting your forces? You seem to have suggested both, changing your stance every now and then.

The fun thing about a game like this is that you don't have to play the exact same way twice... you can even adapt your strategy to combat your opponent's specific deployment and tactics! It's crazy, but worth trying at least once.

If you are splitting your forces, I am pretty sure the Necron player has 36 inch of range to the shorter side There is no need for the Necron player to try to shoot to the opposite corner. All he have to do is shoot the closest threat. If EVRYONE is more than 30 inches away, then there isnt really any harm moving up and breaking up the wall slightly. You don't seem to be a very flexible person when it comes to playing 40k...

The point of splitting up vs a "castle" that can't guard at all angles is that you only need one or two units to reach him. Necron shooting won't cripple EITHER flank in one turn, and after the necrons have committed to attacking one side or the other they're open to reprisal.

Half of the list in the first post can multi-charge and easily wreck a significant amount of necrons.

If Necrons hugging back is lame, then I don't know what to say about the ork player who does the same thing.

That they're both lame? The point is that it won't work out positively for the necrons. It's not fun, it won't win you games, so why do it? It's a pointless strategy.

grankobot wrote:
The fun thing about a game like this is that you don't have to play the exact same way twice... you can even adapt your strategy to combat your opponent's specific deployment and tactics! It's crazy, but worth trying at least once.

"I'd start by throwing rock. Your turn."
"Well then I'd throw paper, which would make me the winner."
"Nuh uh, I really would have thrown scissors! I win!"

Which one is it? If your opponent can't respond with a valid tactic without you changing the original tactic, I don't think anyone can ever argue with you logically.

Gorkamorka wrote:
Which one is it? If your opponent can't respond with a valid tactic without you changing the original tactic, I don't think anyone can ever argue with you logically.

LOL, thats precisely the point, which is why it is such a waste of time talking to him.

And btw, 2 monoliths will wall off entirely a corner. I don't even know what is he talking about. Nvm, maybe he cant picture what is really going on, or really isnt playing 40k, or even both.

Changing your throw in rock paper scissors is not the same thing as reacting to your opponent's deployment. If the necrons go first and castle in a corner, you deploy in the opposite corner. If you deploy first and go on the flanks (or anywhere!) and the necrons push down the middle, you have the speed to adapt to that. That's one of the strengths of a mechanized army.

You guys are arguing for the sake of being argumentative. Who's the troll now? :/

Like I already said, the necron player will just have to consistently be away from YOUR nearest threat for 30-36inch, moving back OR forth depending on whether YOU move back or forth, and shoot at YOUR nearest threat. No matter how fast the orks are, they don't have a 30 inch assault threat range. No wonder Orkish gave up, you don't even seem to be following the discussion.

Maybe you are right. WE GUYS - including everyone else who have given up talking to you, should give up trying to teach a cow appreciate music.

lol, I'm going to give this one last try. Here's the premise - 2 groups of trukks + 1 BW, one on either side. You in the middle. Your plan - put out enough shooting to keep the nearest threat at arm's length. Your idea is that since the orks can't cross the gap, so to speak, that you can play keep away long enough to put them down, yes?

Well here's the problem with that. You're slow. Your guarding units (the monoliths) are cruising at a brisk 6" per turn. You can't run forever. You think you've got enough dakka to keep 5 trukks and 2 BWs off of your back for the whole game? Who cares if they have to take 2 movement phases to get to you. You can't put them all down in that time. Even if you do manage to finish off all of the trukks, Ghazghkull will waaaaagh and the whole army can cover 18" to assault you in one or both sides and push your gak in.

With your 30" "danger zone" you effectively have one round of shooting once you commit. 1 round of shooting from the necrons will not break the orks.

1 round of CC from the orks will break the necrons.

That's the core problem with this scenario, for the necrons anyway. The one hope for this crazy necron list is that you take out literally, every single one of his vehicles before they can make it to you and push your dudes away from the nightbringer with tank shock. Think though, why are necrons almost extinct these days? Problems with vehicles, and the new combat resolution. This ork army can put pressure on both of those weaknesses very easily. You're not going to kill all the vehicles, especially not the av14 battlewagons.

grankobot wrote:lol, I'm going to give this one last try. Here's the premise - 2 groups of trukks + 1 BW, one on either side. You in the middle. Your plan - put out enough shooting to keep the nearest threat at arm's length. Your idea is that since the orks can't cross the gap, so to speak, that you can play keep away long enough to put them down, yes?

I didnt even have to finish reading the rest of your fallacies. On either side? I can already reach the shorter side w/o having to break my wall. It doesnt matter how many sides you are coming from if I am walling off. You really have no idea what is a 6 by 4 table.

Why do I feel a lock coming?

Cause it needs to happen. YAY!!!!!!

It's almost like Darkhound and Hulksmash are psychic.

This thread has run its course.