There are some good rumors finally coming out about tyranids ---> http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/12/40k-rumors-tyranid-avalanche-continues.html <---, i think we can began to talk about how we will change our lists and playing styles to face tyranids. Have at it.

Less mech, more dakka.

I'm going to continue burning down troops and throwing power weapons at MCs.

Not enough is known at this stage. Until we see points costs and sample lists, we won't know quite how to react.

Well i don't know about every one else but the fact they are rumoured to get drop pods which can hold 20 is giving me some concerns...

They sound very fluffy and alien, but we don't yet know enough to decide how many builds/styles will be viable.

Less meltas, more love for the plasma gun.

More "looking over your shoulders"......

More use of antipsyker stuff, for armies that can get them.

Osyr wrote:Less mech, more dakka.

I'm torn on this. In Re SM: I currently run less mech than the meta and LOTS of dakka. I'm thinking all of the infiltrators, marbos, and deep strikers available to the Nids are going to favor Demo cannons (pie plate plus insta-kill) and LR Crusader/redeemers.

Nid mech killyness is only a tad better than it used to be from range.

Beacuse of the fearless rule (assuming that this rumour is correct) I would take some CC elites to really abuse the combat resalution rules.

The heavy bolter might start to see a come-back....maybe

there will be more librarians and more instant-death causers, because of the changes to synapse, now carnifex squads can be dropped by a few force weapon hits (in theory)

The meltagun will never go away, but there might be a more sparing use of it now...plus people will start pointing it at those new stupid 3 wound warriors and lictors.

My list probably won't change (maybe I'll bring my Defiler off the shelf), but my tactics are going to change radically. How exactly, I am uncertain. We'll see when my buddy brings his Trygon to the field.

If I was going to stick with Orks instead of jumping on the bandwagon, I would probably buy more Nobs and make sure they all have powerklaws and cybork bodies. And get more deff dreads.

Yeah, I think armies that can field them will bring out their walkers. We'll force the enemy to go 'Nidzilla so we have something comfortable to fight.

DarkHound wrote:Yeah, I think armies that can field them will bring out their walkers. We'll force the enemy to go 'Nidzilla so we have something comfortable to fight.

Some people claim you an now fit a lot more MC;s on the board now, so many not so comfortable?

It'll be familiar. We've all gone against Monster Mashes before, we know the drill. What's a couple more Carnifexi? No, the dangerous ones will learn to use Gargoyles and carpets of Gaunts quickly. I have some ideas, but I don't know how to fight that, do you?

But they are getting S10 AP1 lances so we'll have to wait to see how many of those they can take. Necrons will probably have the most trouble against the new Tyranids.

Hoard is dead: LONG LIVE THE HOARD.

despoiler52 wrote:Beacuse of the fearless rule (assuming that this rumour is correct) I would take some CC elites to really abuse the combat resalution rules.

QFT - A great tactic I found out accidently. I multicharged a broad of gaunts and a Hive Tyrant with my boys, most of the gaunts died. So then both the gaunts and the tyrant had to take 8 more wounds due to no retreat - Bye bye Gaunts and Bye bye Tyrant!

n0t_u wrote:But they are getting S10 AP1 lances so we'll have to wait to see how many of those they can take.

Probably nine. Zoanthropes can be taken 1-3 per Elite slot (don't know if they have to form a single unit though) and no more 0-1 restriction on the Zoanthropes.

Ya since I play orks I have learnt the pain of combat reselution, sometimes you wish you didn't have the mob rule. As for the strength 10 ap 1 lance. Holy crap, when did this happen.

What will Tyranids do to the metagame?

Eat it and crap it out.

In all seriousness, I think you'll see more Heavy Bolters, Autocannons, and Plasma guns to help put out lots of wounds on both big bugs and small bugs. Same with more Heavy Flamer goodness. Meltas may fall out of favor some, but I really don't know about that, as being able to ID T4 bugs will be nice. PFs will also help with that. I'm expecting to see the AP3 ignore cover templates being popular too. Psyker defense keeps becoming more and more important in my opinion, too. However, this is mainly just guessing on my part at this point.

Not nearly enough is known about point costs and synergies yet.

From what I have heard, the armies that have not already gone mech will be more or less forced to; many opportunities for Tyranids to deliver medium-strength shooting (4-6) quickly and at low point costs, and plenty of anti-troop/horde gimmicks for devouring disembarked footsloggers.

The Zoanthrope lance is indeed an amazing ability, but the range is 18" and psychic hoods/typical psychic protection can shut it down pretty hard. I think we'll see bug players take a few of these just to keep Land Raiders honest, but the majority of units will be the cheap little bugs who can bog down/kill troops while 'hammer' units like tricked out CC-ers close in for the kill.

I think a shooty horde ala Orks will be pretty good; termagaunts and shooty MCs backed up by Zoanthropes.

I think solid mech lists will be the most reliable answer to the tyranid problem.

I think a Chaplain Cassius fluff list needs to be made somewhere....

Well the super combo breaker has been to look and see if the BroodLords power is stackable as the hive tyrant has a ability to cause wounds by what you fail your leadership by.


I can see 4 to 5 Genestealers with Drop Pods or hell infiltrating and a hive tyrant dropping in to cast the power.

You suffer wounds according to what you fail the test by.

Is this really horribly different from the Psyker Battle Squad + Callidus Assassin?

Mech seems like an easy solution.

More Mystics...

Space Wolves players will have fun popping off JotWW whenever a Trygon or whatever deepstrikes in near them.

I think that meching up will be a viable solution in the short term, until nid players figure out how to combat it with all the new rules and units. All we have so far are a lot of reasonably accurate rumours but not a complete description of everything. From what I have heard so far we have a serious vulnerability to ID, so more high strength weapons may be the solution...lascannons, melta etc.

Well, I cannot think of a better way to bump sales of SW than to release a codex right after them that scares the crud out of everyone (and yet SW have all the perfect answers for).

Melta spam will stay, perhaps even get more intense, and you'll need to kill a lot of T4 podders dead fast. Salamanders will get more popular for SM builds.

And more, not less, mech will show up. I know my skimmer-mech Eldar are doing a happy dance, that's for sure.

n0t_u wrote:But they are getting S10 AP1 lances so we'll have to wait to see how many of those they can take. Necrons will probably have the most trouble against the new Tyranids.

I field current zoeys a lot, and there's the problem with that thought

Psychic Test (if fail, stop, if pass, continue)
Shoot (BS 3, if miss, stop, if hit, continue)
Armor Pen (if not, stop, if pen/glance, continue)
Roll dice.

Get a 1,2,3,4, crap...

The problem is we have to pass an extra check (psychic test) to get such a short off, it also has a dangerously short range putting the zoey at great risk. We don't get to run around with twin-linked turret-mounted lascannons or a broadside team of three twin-linked railguns, and we don't get the "bring it down" order to twin-link either. We get three shots at BS 3 that aren't twin linked with a bonus hurdle of a psychic test and must advance before shooting due to close range so we cannot reach the armor we need to destroy until AFTER it has dropped off it's troops or caused the damage it wanted to. We lose that crucial first turn chance at disabling enemy weapons and we get to them long after they've been firing.

My question is, will it really be worth it to run a trio of zoeys (tall model) generally visible up the field all the while being subject to instant death as per the alleged new synapse rules? I don't think so. They cannot stop those vehicles from doing the damage they will on the first couple turns, they get to play cleanup for laid raiders and chimeras that have dumped their payload already. With a 12" range who's gonna be dumb enough to move a vehicle close? Relying on the mistakes of other's isn't such a great plan.

Yeah I didn't remember that much of it, in fact I haven't bothered to look at the rumors myself. The nid player I verse usually told me all of the rumors so I couldn't be botherd looking over them. Turns out that they're way crapper than I thought; range 18" ap2. Obviously something to worry about if it's there, but generally it will only hit you if you're not playing properly.




(2000th post )

I think the biggest effect it will have (certainly on tournament play) is that it will force a change in peoples weapon loadouts.

Mech will still be the way to go for most armies but heavy anti-mech fire loadouts will suffer from lack of shots against the bugs.

The armies I can see doing well here are horde orks (particularly with kan-spam thrown in) and maybe artillery-heavy guard. There again, Mechdar (and even Tau if used well) can nail both these. The merry-go-round continues...

Lootas in battlewagons make new tyranids cry.

Seriously, with less emphasis on 2+ saves (it seems) the sheer weight of fire that 30-45 lootas churn out should really thrash 'nids. I don't play Orks or Nid so I may be talking out my ass.

I suppose they will make me bring out my Hellhounds some more again.

Yeah, I'm liking a lot that I'm not going to have to deal with any extended carapace anymore. It means my krak missiles and flamers can do what they're designed for.

Vulkan should be cheering in glee, meltas for the bigger bugs, flamers for the smaller, and thunder hammers for the biggest bugs.

The nids might effect other lists to alter their style while Vulkan lists might get to ride it out and become more efficient due to other armies changing to include nids as enemies.

I don't think peoples lists will change too much to be honest. The counters that people should already include in their armies are just as usefull against tyranids. I do think Tyranids could be a decent spoiler in the current metagame, being able to operate fairly un phased by all the short ranged anti-tank and now being able to pop transports from range a bit more readily via hive guard and zoanthropes. All the sneaky ways tyranids can deploy will be a big factor also, and I don't think all the implications have been worked out just yet.

Will likely be awhile till nid players adjust though. I know I have a long list of updates needed just based on the limited rumors so far.

I can see more space marine lists incorparating Sternguard into their lists. It's just to good of a Monstrous creature killer.

The list I see the most out of this codex really is a drop death.

The ability to Deep Strike 3 Monstrous , 20 man squads of Genestealers , Ymmargi Genestealers , hive Tyrants as well as having Raveners and Gargoyles is pretty ridiculous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
edit: Add to the fact that Lictor Squads apparently are no longer 0 - 1 and you have the ability to drop Zoanthropes as well with STR 10 Lances etc..

Its pretty nasty and fits well within a 1500 limit having 4 monstrous creatures.

The problem I have with the pod heavy list is by the sounds of it there is no drop pod assault rule or similar (this is unconfirmed though). While that has some advantages, the problem will be getting your anti-tank in time to really matter. Not saying spores won't rock face (eg. I think my 3 non nerfed magnetized fexes are destined to pod for the next few years), I am just reserving judgement till we see the full rules.

Not having the DPA rule is a huge bonus, actually. Depending on when Lictors are deployed, and if they or other Hive Tyrants stack with the Hive Tyrant's +1 reserves rule, you could have a turn 2 DPA with +2 on the roll. That would be the best drop pod army in 40k.

Agree that there may be issues with extensive use of the mycetic spores, but 2 hive Tyrants in spores along with 3 Carnifexes, 3 Zoanthropes, and 120 little bugs coming drop podding on turn 2 on a 2+ reserve roll seems quite sound.

Hollismason wrote:

Add to the fact that Lictor Squads apparently are no longer 0 - 1 and you have the ability to drop Zoanthropes as well with STR 10 Lances etc..

If this becomes common, then I can see finding points for the old inquisitor + mystics and a unit of Grey Knight Terminators with psycannons in my list. If the Zoan's rumored 3+ invulnerable is their *only* save, then DH will be able to rip them up.

It actually works out really well. The Drop Pods are not vehicles they can fire that weapon when they drop in which is ST6 assault 2 i believe.

The next is the Tyanid Hive Tyrant does give +1 to reserve rolls so just leave everything in reserve and drop most of your army in on the 2nd turn.

Pretty great actually.

The Mawloc is inexpensive enough to have 3 of them in a 1500 to 2000k list plus it hits with a ST 6 large blast template.


I havent seen it yet but supposedly lictors still allow either a +1 or a reroll of reserves so if that is true then +2 to reserves if it stacks.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I missed something. Nid's are getting drop pods?

Mycetic spores. Biological drop pods that carry either 1 big bug or 20 little bugs. Huge alpha strike potential with stacking reserve bonuses and no DPA rule requiring half of them to deploy 1st turn.

JOTWW had about 2 months of actual nid killing effectiveness. Now it'll have more expensive MCs to target, MCs that will be padded with drop podding shadow of the warp.

As for what guns will get less popular, and what will get more popular, it is hard to say. Plasma guns look more enticing to put wounds on monstrous creatures, but meltaguns still stay attractive thatnks to their ability to ID warriors, raveners and zoanthropes.

As Sourclams has said, if you have a unit that 'should' be in a transport, it'll have to buy that transport... but I'll add the caveat that there are plenty of modern infantry units in competitive 40k that don't need to mech up. If you are a choppy marine with counter-attack and power fist (see grey hunter/wolf guard pack leader) then you should just take the charges, similarly to iconned CSM units and IG infantry blobs. Power weapons for sergeants and commissars seem mandatory now though.

All in all, No one i know has been able to decipher the rumors, and come up with an actual list concept. The codex looks to be majorly complex, to Cruddace's credit.

full on drop pod assault with aggressive units seems viable, hybrid drop pod lists also seem very doable. The nid troop choices all seem very viable and the troop FOC seems incredibly flexible (infiltrators, cheap mid-range horde, cheap CC specialists with poison, drop pod access) The real question is... what units are going to be supporting this solid troop suite.

I would disagree slightly with your JotWW outlook:

Shadows of the Warp only has a 12" bubble. Either all the MCs are drop podding/footslogging in one significant clump, or the 24" range of JotWW is still quite potent against I1 Carnifexes. If Carnis are 200 pts base, like the rumors state, however, I think Fex-centric Nidzilla is a thing of the past. They'll probably get venom cannons for long range AT and sit safely back out of range if they have any real role at all. I think range is going to be their best defense from JotWW.

While I only know the following about point totals:

Gaunts, gargoyles: CHEAP!!
Stealers: 14 w/out upgrades
Fexes: 200 base

I would hazard to guess that a mixed force incorporating a solid core of MCs to breach hard units and perform long range anti tank roles surrounded by a swarm of little bugs.

sourclams wrote:Mycetic spores. Biological drop pods that carry either 1 big bug or 20 little bugs. Huge alpha strike potential with stacking reserve bonuses and no DPA rule requiring half of them to deploy 1st turn.

sourclams wrote:1 big bug or 20 little bugs

sourclams wrote:stacking reserve bonuses and no DPA rule requiring half of them to deploy 1st turn

Holy gak. That's got ridiculous potential, and I think there'll be a lot more Inquisitors+Mystics in Imperial armies.

Zoan Lance weapon is not ap 1... It is AP 2.. and only 18" Range..

3++ Inv save.. and most likely only T4..

Shoot them with Missle Launchers + Las cannons.. They fail 1 save.. bye bye Zoan.. Insta killed.

sourclams wrote:
I would hazard to guess that a mixed force incorporating a solid core of MCs to breach hard units and perform long range anti tank roles surrounded by a swarm of little bugs.

It'd be nice to see some good, honest mixed footslogging lists around for once.

Can't really know for sure without seeing the actual new codex but if zerging it up is the new fotm, more flamers and multiple templates like Manticores will be popular. If we have Nidzilla 2.0 which we might with 9 fexs option people will load up on Plasma.

Carnifexes are really expensive a Carnifex in drop pod hits the 200 point mark pretty easily.

However th Mawloc( other version of the trigon) not that expensive plus comes with some nifty abilities as well as the template.

Gargoyles are ridiculous on what their capabilities are.

Anything that has a high toughness is going to get swarmed to death its pretty hilarious.


Oh and Jaws of the World Wolf is kind of pointless from what I have read the big guys can get a " save versus psychic attack"

Spyder68 wrote:Zoan Lance weapon is not ap 1... It is AP 2.. and only 18" Range..

3++ Inv save.. and most likely only T4..

Shoot them with Missle Launchers + Las cannons.. They fail 1 save.. bye bye Zoan.. Insta killed.

I see you missed the post where I pointed out and corrected my mistake
I see them as working like the Drop Podding Sternguard with Combi-Meltas. That's if they Deep Strike, I'm not really familiar with them. They'll work for a while but people will find a way around it.

Give a Psychic hood to the Inquisitor that has the Mystics and the problem is basically solved.

Probably see Fire Dragon Exarchs w/ Hvy Flamers and Crackshot more often.

I think the nids may make lists more flexible alltogether. Assuming the codex will be broken as feared it will contain several viable builds. Thus other armies will have to preper for everything. For guard i think ordnance will make its way back into the lists (can't wait for my medusas... ) and for all armies i guess melta spam will decrease at least slightly.
For imperial armies the podding nids shouldn't be a problem thanks to mystics. Most screwed up will be Necrons and Tau from what I've heard (tau for having no psychic defenses at all and necrons... yep you know why)
Still I'm looking forward to the nids have such a kind of impact. But I may just be biased...

Shep wrote:

full on drop pod assault with aggressive units seems viable, hybrid drop pod lists also seem very doable. The nid troop choices all seem very viable and the troop FOC seems incredibly flexible (infiltrators, cheap mid-range horde, cheap CC specialists with poison, drop pod access) The real question is... what units are going to be supporting this solid troop suite.

My money is on the new hive guard. They offer much more in terms of what nids lack, and they have the toughness and wounds to weather the fire until the big boys arrive in their pods. I would also contemplate dropping zoanthropes (if they can) as a suicide unit. Take out that landraider and the termies are slogging it across the board.

The venomthrope may also be viable. Dropping a load of gaunts next to the enemy and giving them a cover save sounds a quite nice. It also looks like it a buff unit to the little guys, which makes for a nice combo.

With the deepstriking and whatnot, I think Mysticsx2 and a JotWW Runepriest could have some fun.

I think that most armies that are not mech will be forced to be meched. I think that more assault oriented units might start showing up, and units like IG bubblewrap + commisars and kroot walls etc... will be showing up in many more lists.

Flamers will definetially be found on vehicles, but I don't think that the codex will cause people to completely shift their playstyle, spacewolves didn't and I think nids will do the same. I just think people without balanced lists (to handle hordes) will be forced to balance their lists, which is a good thing for them.

First off, I'm not sure JOTWW or any other psychic power can be used with mystics. I'm not saying that they can't, just that I haven't read the rules on it. Isn't it a psychic power that says it happens in the shooting phase?

Anyway, that aside:

One thing that looks like a big deal in the rumors I've seen is hive guard with 2 shots at bs 4, s 8 24", ap not dash. That says to me that a unit of 3 will shoot 6 times, hit 4, do roughly a pen and a glance, and thus have about a 1/3 chance of taking out a rhino. That's a pretty big deal. The only thing Nids have always lacked is the ability to reliably open rhinos from a good distance. If they can do that...esp. combined with the rumored Ymgari Stealers...could be a very very strong list.

Don't forget that Lictors as well as Ymgarri all gain the benefit of just appearing in your deployment zone in terrain and that the Ymgarri can assault the turn they come in to play.

Throw that in with Drop Podding troops and Deepstriking Monstrous creatures.

40kenthusiast wrote:First off, I'm not sure JOTWW or any other psychic power can be used with mystics. I'm not saying that they can't, just that I haven't read the rules on it. Isn't it a psychic power that says it happens in the shooting phase?

Anyway, that aside:

One thing that looks like a big deal in the rumors I've seen is hive guard with 2 shots at bs 4, s 8 24", ap not dash. That says to me that a unit of 3 will shoot 6 times, hit 4, do roughly a pen and a glance, and thus have about a 1/3 chance of taking out a rhino. That's a pretty big deal. The only thing Nids have always lacked is the ability to reliably open rhinos from a good distance. If they can do that...esp. combined with the rumored Ymgari Stealers...could be a very very strong list.

2 Mystic lets unit X shoot at the deep striking unit. Psychic shooting attacks count as shooting a ranged weapon. I see no problem with using Jotww ... only thing is why?
I do agree Murderous Hurricane or Living Lightning x4 would be better after all what are you going to do against 12D6 str3 hits or 4D6 str7 AP5 shots (12-72 41.5av or 4-24 13.5av)

Just to make Trygons/Malowcs cry.

Shep wrote:JOTWW had about 2 months of actual nid killing effectiveness. Now it'll have more expensive MCs to target, MCs that will be padded with drop podding shadow of the warp.

As for what guns will get less popular, and what will get more popular, it is hard to say. Plasma guns look more enticing to put wounds on monstrous creatures, but meltaguns still stay attractive thatnks to their ability to ID warriors, raveners and zoanthropes.

As Sourclams has said, if you have a unit that 'should' be in a transport, it'll have to buy that transport... but I'll add the caveat that there are plenty of modern infantry units in competitive 40k that don't need to mech up. If you are a choppy marine with counter-attack and power fist (see grey hunter/wolf guard pack leader) then you should just take the charges, similarly to iconned CSM units and IG infantry blobs. Power weapons for sergeants and commissars seem mandatory now though.

All in all, No one i know has been able to decipher the rumors, and come up with an actual list concept. The codex looks to be majorly complex, to Cruddace's credit.

full on drop pod assault with aggressive units seems viable, hybrid drop pod lists also seem very doable. The nid troop choices all seem very viable and the troop FOC seems incredibly flexible (infiltrators, cheap mid-range horde, cheap CC specialists with poison, drop pod access) The real question is... what units are going to be supporting this solid troop suite.

I'm not so sure even grey hunters want to be outside of their transports. Unless it's cost prohibitive, shooty nids with some cc dropping in could be a serious concern for anyone.

But it's way to early to tell...

Way to early to tell, need to at least see the codex in my hands and play with some lists. I do think that most list will drop some of the single shot hi strength weapons to a lower strength weapon with a higher rate of fire. Also, if I heard right and the new Venomthrope gives a cover save, flamers will need to be taken in greater number. I see burna boys, skorcha's, hellhounds, That kinda thing. Tau I think are in trouble, not enough cover save ignoring templates outside of battlesuits.

doubled wrote:Tau I think are in trouble, not enough cover save ignoring templates outside of battlesuits.

Are you daft? Have you ever heard of a Markerlight?

I don't think it's too early anymore. We have a rough idea of what units can do. It's not perfect but we already know that hive guard are reasonably/very competitive (we know they fill a niche which was previously unfilled). There's a lot of other info on other units as well meaning we can plan rough lists...no points, just good combos.

Such as?

I think people's style of holding objectives is going to have to change. Standard doctrine of a single troop holding rear area objectives just won't be possible with all the deployment goodness that is the new 'nids. Personally though until i see some point costs i'm gonna hold off on anything else on how it'll effect the meta-game. But I will say based on a lot of the rumored point costs that 4-5 MC's, 12-15 Mid-Bugs and 80+ Small bugs isn't out of the question of 1850-2k points. That's a lot of killing that needs doing.

Such as hordes using the venomthrope to gain a much needed cover save in the open.
Such as combining trygons and mawlocs to hit a target then engage said target in assault allowing the mawloc to hit again the next turn.
Such as multi-assaulting with hormies and warriors with boneswords to stop the gaunts getting tarpitted by any unit with a decent save.
Such as using lictors to co-ordinate a massive mycetic assault near your opponents deployment zone.

The list is endless. Some may be viable, some may not be...but we can start thinking about potential synergy.

I think the mech Space Wolves will be nearly perfect for taking on Nids. In 1850p against all comers I'd run Rune Priest with Chooser of Slain, JOTWW and the anti-biker/skimmer/deep striker tempest, three Dreadnoughts with MM and heavy flamers, six 5man Grey Hunter squads with flamers and las/plas Razorbacks, three Land Speeders Typhoons or MM/HF ones and three Predator Destructors. That's 27 heavy weapons and 12 special weapons. It's 15 vehicles.

There's no way any number of chaff like Gaunts or medium sized monsters is going to bother my 6 flamers, 3 heavy flamers, 3 autocannons, 9 heavy bolters, 6 frag missiles and 30 bp/ccw armed counter-charging Grey Hunters. I guess the small bugs should be tank shocked a couple times before flaming them so that they'll all die in one go. I also doubt that the now enormously expensive MC's will like the 6 lascannons, 6 tl plasma guns, 3 multi-meltas, 6 krak missiles and JOTWW either. Dreadnoughts can also have finish stuff off with their power fists. Additionally there's always the 24" bubble of anti-psychic power goodness from the runic weapon of the Rune Priest.

Like someone already said, if Nid drop poding would become the norm, adding mystics to lists like the one above would be no problem.

So tailoring your lists gets results...by which I mean the mystics. It's not complete tailoring but still...

Where we play it's kind of frowned upon to do that so we regularly build allcomers. We have a tau, nid, IG chaos, orks and Marine player. We also regularly switch opponents. This increases our "army awareness" and allows us to improve our lists accordingly.

Well like I said I doubt I would need mystics with the list above, but taking them is an available option.

I am actually very interested to see how it all pans out. Even with the abundance of rumours I'm sure there are some things that we haven't considered yet...and a dropped MC can probably withstand the fire power being targetted at it from a single unit.

Then we better concentrate fire. It's not a new concept. There's already so much stuff that can get into one's face asap, some more won't shift the metagame much.

I think it is clear that infantry will have a hard time coping with a Tyranid Alpha strike. The question is, if they do get strong units to fill the AT niche, will mechanized forces really fare that much better? When the the spores rain down, you cannot drive away I imagine, and an MC usually needs to hit only once to cause serious damage against AV10.

Hollismason wrote:
Oh and Jaws of the World Wolf is kind of pointless from what I have read the big guys can get a " save versus psychic attack"

What kind of save? I'm pretty sure the big guys can get a save versus shooting, too. Doesn't mean it's pointless per se, seeing as it autokills even T6.

Cpt. Icanus wrote:I think the nids may make lists more flexible alltogether. Assuming the codex will be broken as feared it will contain several viable builds. Thus other armies will have to preper for everything.

But isn't that already the case? That in itself is not a change in the metagame.

The hive guard look like they will fill the AT niche very nicely, allowing the pod contents to cause some real havoc with the squishy insides of transports.

I think there will be more Skulltaker. Not only for bugs but thunder wolves. May not be mouch of a concern to some people but there are a lot of demon players in my area.

The combo I like that people have been talking on other forums about is the Lictor Mawloc enjoy St6 ap 2 templates.


Lictors allow deepstriking units to not scatter

Maybe that harkens back to the original Trygon in Epic: Space Marine where it could project a deadly wave of "bio-electricity" that would murder nearby units.

Also worth noting again that we don't know how mycetic spores will interact with mystics. The hope is that they are drop pods, but I wouldn't bet everything on it.

I mean, what if the rule that the bugs can't assault is part of the disembark rule from them? That would mean you wouldn't dare shoot them, lest you pop one and let them assault on their landing turn.

Can you shoot the Pod or the guy that gets out? Do you shoot before or after they disembark? What does popping a pod with mystics before the guys get out even do? It isn't a vehicle, it doesn't have wrecked/exploded.

GW has made bigger goofs before. I think the interaction of the Mystics and the Spores will be a fairly huge point.

The shot that results from mystics spotting the deepstrikers doesn't happen until the unit "enters play." A drop pod isn't in play until it has landed on the tabletop, and the units on board don't enter play until they disembark; there aren't any rules in 40K for shooting at things floating around in the air.

IIRC the Daemonhunter FAQ says the shot can shoot the pod *or* the unit(s) that disembark, not both, but you can take the free shot at each/all units that disembark.

Additionally, we don't know for sure if the Spore pods have the same rules of not mishaping when they land on units, etc. like SM drop pods do. Too early to tell.

40kenthusiast wrote:Also worth noting again that we don't know how mycetic spores will interact with mystics. The hope is that they are drop pods, but I wouldn't bet everything on it.

I mean, what if the rule that the bugs can't assault is part of the disembark rule from them? That would mean you wouldn't dare shoot them, lest you pop one and let them assault on their landing turn.

Can you shoot the Pod or the guy that gets out? Do you shoot before or after they disembark? What does popping a pod with mystics before the guys get out even do? It isn't a vehicle, it doesn't have wrecked/exploded.

GW has made bigger goofs before. I think the interaction of the Mystics and the Spores will be a fairly huge point.

Yeah, but that FAQ refers to Drop Pods, right? No reason to think they'll write a similar one for the spores.

In the absence of an FAQ the Mystic shot would come right after the Pod lands, before anything can disembark. It raises some issues, depending on how the rules for the Nids are written. Might very easily free them to assault. Further, it's unlikely that there are rules for damaging the bugs inside, given that in a normal game there's no way it could take fire before disembarking them.

For that matter, even the concept of "disembarking" from them would be different. There aren't exactly any rules for disembarking from an infantry model.

On a complete side note, I sure would love to see new DH/WH Codexes just to finally end all the ally shenanigans.

Alternately a mycetic spore could simply be an upgrade allowing a unit otherwise unable to Deep Strike to...Deep Strike!

Maybe the Spore is DS'ed and then everyone rings it like the first model of the DS. Or maybe it's treated as part of the unit, though the rest can move away. Maybe it's entirely decorative (unlikely since it allegedly has a profile).

My guess will be it DS's, and then after its final position is determined, it simply says that the unit is placed so that all models are within 2" of the Spore. No reference to disembarking is made, or transporting, as it's not a vehicle. It's simply an option, as Nurglitch points out, that confers this abililty and adds one more model to the unit, one that gets left behind.

I also guess that most people will play it with Mystics exactly as though it's a drop pod, but the rules will be unclear as to the proper RAW way to do it, inviting arguments, there will be no GW FAQ about it, and the INAT FAQ will rule it working like Drop Pods unless it has a particularly odd wording.

Nurglitch wrote:Alternately a mycetic spore could simply be an upgrade allowing a unit otherwise unable to Deep Strike to...Deep Strike!

unlikely when it has a ....
STATLINE: WS:2 BS:2. T:5-6 W:3 A:3 S:6.
Weapon: 6" S:6 Assault 6

...well if bell of lost souls is to be believed any way. Love the fact it gets 3 Str6 attacks ... wonder about the LD ... got to be fearless, i can't see it running

Likewise it's supposedly a Monstrous Creature. Could make for very interesting late-game objective clearing with Dreadnoughts and other walkers dying ignominous deaths as Mycetic Spores tear them apart.

Likewise it's supposedly a Monstrous Creature.

Yeah they could be a nice objective denial option being a S6 MC that reduces enemy I to 1.

I wonder how long until someone takes dinner plates sized spore pods to a tournament.

winterman wrote:

Likewise it's supposedly a Monstrous Creature.

Yeah they could be a nice objective denial option being a S6 MC that reduces enemy I to 1.

I wonder how long until someone takes dinner plates sized spore pods to a tournament.

that would be too stupidly easy to mishap .. what you want is an L shaped one ... but in all seriousness i hope to god they release a model ... i have seen some weird drop pods (including a monolith ¬_¬) and i don't want to see it again just after we finally get pods

So if the Nids are getting Pods ( which is perfectly fluffy ), I will eagerly wait the next CSM Codex ( propably coming out in 2020 ). Dreadclaws are long overdue.

My IG Airborne Regiment propably won´t have to make huge adjustments to doctrine against the Nids. If the Nids plan a Pod Assault ( with supporting infiltrators/burrowers ), the default anti-Drop tactics should work juts fine. Surrender the first turn, put units in reserve and perform a counter-attack. The Chrome Warriors Chapter will propably requisition more plasma weapons from the Munitorium. The Death Guard warband will also swap some of their meltaguns to plasmaguns when facing Nids.

Therion wrote:Well like I said I doubt I would need mystics with the list above, but taking them is an available option.

If the Nid book contains a top-drawer list built with spores and the spores deepstrike, then I think you'll see a whole lot more mystics at tournaments. They're already fairly common of course, but if you add another top-5 finishing kind of list the builds around DS then they become almost mandatory. It's a cheap add so I won't be heartbroken to start penciling them in to all my loyalist tourney lists at that point.

Fenris-77 wrote:

Therion wrote:Well like I said I doubt I would need mystics with the list above, but taking them is an available option.

If the Nid book contains a top-drawer list built with spores and the spores deepstrike, then I think you'll see a whole lot more mystics at tournaments. They're already fairly common of course, but if you add another top-5 finishing kind of list the builds around DS then they become almost mandatory. It's a cheap add so I won't be heartbroken to start penciling them in to all my loyalist tourney lists at that point.

Which is why I absolutely hate those books' allies rule. You have 7 or so different codexes (or 6 and a pdf) that can just slap an inquisitor with 2 mystics in for ~35 points if deepstrike gets big. Might as well drop the 10 or so more to give him an Emporer's Tarot at that point... Invulnerable saves get too big, everyone from the imperium has an answer... DS a problem, same deal... I think the Inquisitors and all their trimmings are pretty cool, and would give some extra flavor and uniqueness to the DH/WH...if they weren't in a Guard army every time you turn around.

Just looking at the rumours and some of the stuff that has been posted the book has some very strong builds.

Does anyone know if it has been confirmed that the Raveners are able to assault out of the Tunnel created or is that BS that is Apocalypse related.

As it stand just looking at the different variants of things DEATHSTALKER!!! is holy gak overpowered and basically "This is a 2nd edition Lictor in 5th edition".

Overall I dont know how some armies will flat out deal with som of the stuff the army can throw t them. Monstrous troops , drop pods, multiple '"marbo" style units.

flying monstrous creatures


It goes on and on.

Hollismason wrote:
Overall I dont know how some armies will flat out deal with som of the stuff the army can throw t them. Monstrous troops

Mech

drop pods,

Mech

multiple '"marbo" style units.

Mech

flying monstrous creatures

Plasma Guns

Most of the tricks I've seen are *most* effective versus footsloggers. I think the Tyranids simply ram home the point that, once again, in 5th ed having a wall of vehicle between infantry and the enemy is all but necessary for the majority of lists. I'm sure that a few armies could justify a large force of footsloggers, but with Ap2 templates burrowing into your gunline on turn 2, it'll be a tough sell.

Buying enough time to winnow out the Nid ranks before they reach critical mass in the assault phase is going to be key; against the majority of their units simply being in a transport gets you another turn before they kill all your men. Looks like their shooting will be considerable, but concentrated, making mass assault a favored method of winning; kill their fire bases, stay mobile, run around long enough to flame the little bugs while using anti tank to instant death the more threatening medium sized ones.

Short of AV14 Transports the tyranids really do have some great AV12< anti tank. Hive Guard ; Lictors ; Tyrgon 2d6 St6 hits MawLoc etc..

It's unfortunate that lictors lost the assault ability although I've not seen that definitely confirmed however they did gain a 2 ST6 shot and point cost reduction.

Drop Pods similarly gained benefits ; They're troops BS2 but 2 ST6 shots; Zoanthropes in drops as well.

Those Drop Pods are nothing to sneeze at the stats are pretty ridiculous needing ST10 to insta kill and having 3 wounds.

I don't think they will be a huge fire priority honestly. The ability they do have of landing and striking at rear armour though is pretty damn good


People keep saying "mech" the thing is the tyranids gained some really good anti transport missing out mildy on AV14.

I'm not denying that Tyranids have better anti-armor than they used to. Quite frankly they had to get it, otherwise they would be a laughingstock in 5e just as they were before this release.

Their anti-mech, however, is borderline compared to their anti-infantry. Generally it's fairly concentrated, like Hive Guard blobs or Zoanthrope squads, or reliant on the assault phase as it was before. Their new anti-infantry toys, however, are much more considerable. Stealershock is probably weaker, and Nidzilla Devourer spam is taking a hit, but the reduction in points for the little bugs and the huge amount of disruption, infiltration/deep strike deployment, and sheer combat killiness of all the other units still means that mech is a much greater foil than non-mech.

sourclams wrote:I'm not denying that Tyranids have better anti-armor than they used to. Quite frankly they had to get it, otherwise they would be a laughingstock in 5e just as they were before this release.

Their anti-mech, however, is borderline compared to their anti-infantry. Generally it's fairly concentrated, like Hive Guard blobs or Zoanthrope squads, or reliant on the assault phase as it was before. Their new anti-infantry toys, however, are much more considerable. Stealershock is probably weaker, and Nidzilla Devourer spam is taking a hit, but the reduction in points for the little bugs and the huge amount of disruption, infiltration/deep strike deployment, and sheer combat killiness of all the other units still means that mech is a much greater foil than non-mech.

I just pray this guy comes in more then LR ...
Tyrannofex: Walking weapon battery.
-Fleshborer swarm: S:4 AP:5 Assault 20
-Pyroacid spray: S:6 AP:4 template, used like the IG Hellhound.
-Capsule cannon: 48' S:10, AP:4, Assault 2

...from what I hear each of those is an arm.

I think trygons are gonna be a great way of opening up battle tanks, especially if whatever they touch when they DS they actually assault. Combining them with hive guard for transport busting (these guys are THE elite slot competitive choice) and a load of podding assaulty units and I think we may have a winner.

And pods aren't vehicles right...meaning you could drop down onto units and pull them into cc. If that's possible then it's just nasty. Of course we might not be able to do it, but still...

sirisaacnuton wrote:
Which is why I absolutely hate those books' allies rule. You have 7 or so different codexes (or 6 and a pdf) that can just slap an inquisitor with 2 mystics in for ~35 points if deepstrike gets big. Might as well drop the 10 or so more to give him an Emporer's Tarot at that point... Invulnerable saves get too big, everyone from the imperium has an answer... DS a problem, same deal... I think the Inquisitors and all their trimmings are pretty cool, and would give some extra flavor and uniqueness to the DH/WH...if they weren't in a Guard army every time you turn around.

Yup, for 10 points the ET might as well get tossed in. The Inv save issues isn't anything close to the same deal though - those Psy Cannons are brutally expensive to field in bulk. The two mystic thing can be done super cheap, which is (IMO) what actually pisses guys off the most, not so much the fact that's available.

It's not as though it's an I win button against DS armies either in most cases, it just makes the DS army play with more caution. The fact that it's from another book doesn't really bother me, or at least it's not my first criteria for judgement. Nob Bikers are actually from the Ork book and they're waaaay nastier.

Mind you, I have seen an Apoc army with 2 Reavers and 3 Warhounds and 5 sets of Inqs and Mystics hiding behind legs. That was friggin' ridiculous (in an inner geek I wish I'd thought of that sort of way, admittedly )