I can't find any mention of this anywhere in the fluff. Can an Eldar fall to the path of violence and depravity and thereby become a Dark Eldar? Or was it just a one-off thing when the Dark Eldar managed to escape Slaanesh's birth and subsequent soul-feasting?

Striking scorpion's first Phoenix lord had fell to the chaos.

Yes, many craftworld Eldar often find their 'path' too restrictive.

Some run off looking for adventure and such, and become either rangers or pirates. (And what happens then is up to them.)

Some work off their youthful stress and return to the Craftworld. Others get killed. While a few, I don't know how many, would enjoy thier life without restrictions a little too much.

(Whether the DE would welcome these rouges to Commoragh is a whole other story)

No matter how graceful, you're bound to trip over something eventually.

Wait, what was the question?

DoW

I can easily see some of the more vicious eldar pirate captains being welcome at a Dark Eldar port. Especially if they bring slaves.

gardeth wrote:I can easily see some of the more vicious eldar pirate captains being welcome at a Dark Eldar port. Especially if they bring slaves.

And booze. And drugs. Especially;

C-C-C-COCAAAAAAAIIINNNNE!!!

What? What did you think they used for combat drugs?

Not that, they avoid Slaanesh.

They can fall, although I don't think this usually brings them into contact with the Dark Eldar.

They just become crazed corsairs or something.

Orkeo is correct. Eldar don't work like Space Marines. Another example would be a Craftworld Eldar getting stuck on some feral planet. He would not become an Exodite.

I guess the corsair would have to FIND Commoragh in the first place, and who's to say the DE would leap at the opportunity to stab some distant cousins in the back?

I suppose you're right. But if said crazed corsair was to loot, dress, fight and enslave like a DE, does it count?

You have the right idea there, EF. DE would not accept Craftworld Eldar into their society. I'm sure they would rather murder even malicious, depraved, BDSM Craftworld Eldar than ever treat them as insiders.

But would they really care?
I mean, if the guy offered a large enough tribute to an Archaon in order to join his Kabal.
Remember, they're not two different races. So they may treat a Craftworld Eldar who scorns his own people with a modicum of respect.

I recall the Eldar and Dark Eldar no longer being equal to each other; the Dark Eldar are too corrupted by the fall to ever go to the Craftworlder's paths. They are consumed while alive instead of just in death, so they need to go to extremes to save themselves. (This also being the reason they can't use spirit stones to save themselves.)

If this is true then a corsair would never truly fit in with the Dark Eldar, although I suppose he could work with them if the Dark Eldar thought it would be to their advantage.

I know that a DE would probably not (maybe impossibly) be able to join a Craftworld, but surely the opposite isn't true. The only difference between the two is that the Craftworlds walk a strict path.

I wonder, if a corsair joined the De would he be subject to the same thirsts as them?

It is just as impossible for a Craftworld Eldar to become a DE, even if he or she is an evil sadist, as it is for a DE to become a Craftworld Eldar.

Why is that?
Why would the DE care?

To answer your question with a question: Why would Craftworld Eldar reject a DE who acted in a disciplined and solicitous manner?

I think it's mainly becuase Craftworlds are so tight-knit. Even regarding other Craftworlds with a degree of suspicion, or at times open hostility.

And besides, I believe that DE are too close to Slaanesh for a Craftworld Eldar to be comfortable around. They remind them of the fall. And also, they simply wouldn't trust them.

However, if the DE was truly repentant (unlikely)...I don't know.

DE I believe are more casual.

"You a Craftworld Eldar? That's not cool."
"You got slaves? Then it's cool. Welcome to Commoragh."

I doubt they would ever trust a Craftworlder. And, besides, it would make more sense for them to feed the Craftworlder's soul to Slaanesh.

1) They don't trust anyone regardless. Not themselves. Or thier pets. Or thier own left hand.

2)IF it was a lone Craftworlder, then yes. A Kabal would leap at the opportunity to enslave and torture them.
However, if this Craftworlder had a whole Corsair fleet behind him AND brought slaves and other goodies as tribute, a Kabal might be more interested.
Either they would tear them apart straight away, or they would work something out.

More likely they would pretend to work something out and then catch them off guard so as to capture them and kill them in the most excruciating manner possible.

And, yes, DE trust no one BUT they are at least comfortable operating with one another because they all know the rules, as it were. Even if an outsider could learn to navigate their incredibly dangerous culture I don't think they would allow it.

I also think you're forgetting that any Eldar corsair would have virtually no reason to want to join a Kabal. Even a fallen Craftworlder is sure to despise Dark Eldar. Unlike good guys (and neutral guys), bad guys don't like each other and are much more likely to fight amongst themselves rather than work together much less join one another's culture/race.

Manchu wrote:More likely they would pretend to work something out and then catch them off guard so as to capture them and kill them in the most excruciating manner possible.

Sounds like he's been accepted into the DE clan then.

And you're right, though a Corsair may want to work something out so he has a refuge from Imperials or other Eldar hunting him down.

I still think it could happen, but it's obviously not a common-place occurence.

I disagree. The DE view the craftworld Eldar as stuck up prudish cousins who are unable to recognise the reality of the world, and who refuse to give in to their real natures. The DE would view a corrupt Eldar the same way they would any other DE. After all, there's no genetic differences, stick a regular Eldar in spikes, get him addicted to thirty different depravities, and voila! Dark Eldar.

Exactly! However, I do wonder how the transistion from Souls Stones to killing people for thier souls would happen.

Solataires are welcome on craftworlds (at least for a short period of time) and they are "redeemed" Dark Eldar.

Emperors Faithful wrote:However, I do wonder how the transistion from Souls Stones to killing people for thier souls would happen.

I don't know that it would.

Unless, I dunno, the corsair became a Slaanesh worshiper and then decided he didn't want to but was already so corrupted that his soul will be sucked away until his death.

gardeth wrote:Solataires are welcome on craftworlds (at least for a short period of time) and they are "redeemed" Dark Eldar.

Solataires are redeemed Dark Eldar? Where did you hear that?

I doubt they would abandon their soul stones. It's an alternative way to having your soul eaten even if you die.

However, I find it entirely plausible you could have a group of Eldar corsairs falling so far into debauchery that for all intents and purposes, they are Dark Eldar. The regular Dark Eldar would have no problem working alongside such people, but they'd treat them the way they treat any other Eldar in their society, with ruthlessness, suspicion, and mistrust.

It reminds me of the time the Eldar got hold of a Imperial Governor who had killed a bunch of Eldar so he could wear their spirit stones. They sent him over to Commoragh, where they treated a man with such affront with the cruelty he deserved. Two thousand years later, his soul is still screaming in agony.

@gardeth and Orkeo: I don't know much about solitaires, but it's solid fluff that Harlequin troupes occasionally visit Commoragh and put on displays there, like any other coven of eldar.

Oh, I know that. The Harlequins are respected by the whole race.

My understanding of the Solitaires was that they gave their soul to Slaanesh when they assumed her part in The Great Dance (unless the Laughing God can trick her into giving it up). I hadn't heard that they were particularly related to the Dark Eldar though.

Same species means nothing. After being born and bred in the US of A, can I turn into a Korean? How about French? How about if I put on a beret and drink some wine?

If you got a French passport, learnt to speak French and got the accent, learnt all about the culture and engaged in it, I'd say yeah, you probably are French.

You might say so, but I doubt the French would. They would always refer to me as" zat Americain" relative to themselves. And I'm sure DE are even more stuck up about who they consider to be one of them than the French.

I disagree. I believe the analogy is ultimately wrong.

It would be more appropriate to compare yourself to the Canadians. Why? Because The Dark Eldar and Eldar share the same origins and language.

I personally believe if you hung around Canada long enough, got the passport, acquired the accent, and lived there, unless you specifically walked up to people and introduced yourself as an American, they wouldn't be able to tell the difference. And then the difference is in your head, not theirs.

What makes you think that after a cataclysm that birthed a new Chaos god AND created a rift between the Materium and Warp PLUS something over ten thousand years of separation and a deep, mutual hatred their cultures would be anything alike? I really think your are underestimating how different DE are from other Eldar.

Manchu wrote:More likely they would pretend to work something out and then catch them off guard so as to capture them and kill them in the most excruciating manner possible.

And, yes, DE trust no one BUT they are at least comfortable operating with one another because they all know the rules, as it were. Even if an outsider could learn to navigate their incredibly dangerous culture I don't think they would allow it.
.

Don't forget the DE are not comfortable working with one another, in the apoc rule book they're the only race that has its own race as "Distrusful allies" even chaos works together better than different kabals it seems

Fine, then they are even less likely to work with malicious Craftworld Eldar.

Manchu, I think your concentrating too much on the culture. I doubt that vice could be called a culture.

What I'm saying is, if you enslave like a DE, dress like a DE and torture like a DE you are pretty much a DE.

Furthermore, why on Earth do you think the DE would care?

I hate to prove you wrong Manchu, but just to pull a little bit of fluff out here.....

The wildest of all the spacefaring Eldar become corsairs or raiders....As home and the Eldar path become increasingly remote, the naturally wild and amoral character of the Eldar resurfaces. Eldar pirates are quick tempered, and unpredictable, equally inclined to maganimity and wanton slaughter...Many Eldar simply lose themselves in the Webway, occasionally to be found by the Harlequins, or drifting towards the nightmare city of Commoragh...'

Whilst the regular Eldar do hate the Dark Eldar as a symbol of the depravities their society once sank to, that piece of fluff proves that Eldar do sometimes fall and join the Dark Eldar.

With regard to the Dark Eldars stance, I believe this piece of fluff summarises it quite well...

'Why do they resist?'. Barakhar's ragged voice made his assistants twitch.....It was Araquir the Haemonculus who spoke. 'They resist because they are foolish sire. They resist us, just as they resist their own true selves. They are blinded to the truth. They have seen the vile ugly beasts that run ruinous across our kingdom and they have bowed their heads to them. They lock themselves in that soulless prison that they call their home and deny themselves the pleasures and pains that are their rightful heritage. They have lost the right to rule, yet in their jealousy they cannot allow themselves to stand aside while we take what is ours.....'

'As ever, Araquir speaks words of wisdom. Well, if they will not stand aside, they must be laid low...'

From this piece of fluff we glean that the Dark Eldar treat regular Eldar with contempt, but not hate. Not only that, they would rather the Eldar stand aside and let them do as they wish, rather than be forced to kill them. This tells us that rather than seeing the Craftworld Eldar as different species, they simply see them as misguided fools and have little to no respect for them. As such, a Craftworld Eldar who wandered into Commorragh and adopted their lifestyle would be respected as much as one dark eldar ever respects another, if not more so (due to the craftworld eldar having been wise to finally see the 'reality' of the world).

I'm afraid Manchu, where the Dark Eldar are concerned, I know my fluff back to front. You can try and nitpick holes in that if you want, but I've actually got more fluff that correlates this, I just can't quite be bothered to pull it all out and type it all down.

I'm really having a hard time with why you'd think the DE wouldn't care. Craftworld Eldar and DE are mortal enemies. Even Eldar corsairs aren't likely to shake that kind of prejudice. And even if they did and wanted to worm their way into Commorragh, there's still the prejudice of Kabals like Black Heart--those that still remember the Fall and who's hatred of those that escaped is all th more bitter and deep for it. Your idea, as well as Ketara's, seems to be Eldarark Eldar::Space Marines:Chaos Space Marines. I think you'll find upon reading over the fluff that the DE situation is a but more intense than the Horus Heresy or individual incidents of corruption.

Ketara wrote:I hate to prove you wrong Manchu, but just to pull a little bit of fluff out here.....

The wildest of all the spacefaring Eldar become corsairs or raiders....As home and the Eldar path become increasingly remote, the naturally wild and amoral character of the Eldar resurfaces. Eldar pirates are quick tempered, and unpredictable, equally inclined to maganimity and wanton slaughter...Many Eldar simply lose themselves in the Webway, occasionally to be found by the Harlequins, or drifting towards the nightmare city of Commoragh...'

Ah, see here. It doesn't exactly say that they'll be welcomed with open arms...

@Ketara: Your interpretation of those passages requires some assumptions and leaps in argument. Sorry but I don't find those examples very convincing.

'If they will not stand aside...'. This = He would rather they did stand aside, or at least gave them the option of standing aside. This =He's actually not immensely keen on slaughtering Eldar. This in turn= He probably doesn't hate Eldar. Why? Because if you hate someone, and are gifted with the opportunity to slaughter them, you'll usually take it.
Case in point I think.

Also, if you examine the Haemonculus's tone there, it's more one of contempt. Not outright hatred. I'm not saying an Eldar would be welcomed with open arms in Commorragh, but that's because no-one is welcomed with open arms in Commorragh. Commorragh is a horrible place where everyone backstabs and double deals each other on a regular basis.

To turn this around slightly Manchu, I've provided sufficent evidence to indicate the Dark Eldar would be (speaking in the most general possible terms, as they are Dark Eldar after all) accepting of Craftworld Eldar wanderers and outcasts, if they adopted the Dark Eldar way of life. You have yet to produce any fluff or evidence to conflict with this, other than 'I think this'.

If you can produce two substantive pieces of evidence to contradict me, I will quite happily go through my big stack of old white dwarfs and pull out the pieces of fluff that I know are in there to establish this definitively. Until then, I can't be bothered, as it's a very big pile.

Okay, let's straighten this out a bit. I think it is simply a matter of understanding the timeline rather than quoting things and then claiming your interpretation is what is actually being communicated.

Before the fall, nearly all Eldar were decadent hedonists. The first lot to flee (never became hedonists) were the Exodites. The second wave (repentent hedonists) were the Craftworld Eldar. Of those who survived the birth of Slaanesh, the ones that escaped into the Webway became the Dark Eldar.

Keeping in mind that the Craftworld Eldar left before the birth of Slaanesh, it becomes apparent that the Path system was not created in response to the Fall but rather simply to the decadence of pre-Fall Eldar society or, more specifically, to the "wanton" nature of the Eldar psyche. It is unknown when the Eldar first began using Spirit Stones but given that the only source of Waystones are the Crone Worlds (the Eldar homeworlds) and that Craftworlds and their Infinity Circuits predate the Fall, it is more likely than not that Eldar did not begin using them as a means to escape Slaanesh's thirst but rather as a means to prevent their souls from slipping into the Warp more generally. Having turned away from Eldar society in general, the Craftworld Eldar therefore represent a distinct cultural group even before birth of Slaanesh.

The Dark Eldar only begin to exist after the birth of Slaanesh. They are not simply the same as the decadent pre-Fall Eldar but are those who not only survived the Fall but also escaped into the Webway and founded Commorragh and have been endlessly drawn out from it by the unquenchable Thirst. It is no surprise that they see themselves as the real Eldar, the Eldar in their "natural state" as it were, but rather than being an objective perspective this is a product of their arrogance. After all, Eldar were not always a decadent race nor were they always troubled by the Thirst.

As to the tone of the Haemonculus, he makes a clear distinction between "us" and "them" in the last sentence you quoted. I do not detect any willingness on his part to accept the Craftworld Eldar. It seems to me that he is reminding his master that there can be no such reunion.

Finally, regarding your first piece of evidence, taken from the Eldar Codex, let me quote a sentence from the paragraph that precedes it:

To the ignorant, there is little to distinguish between the ships of the craftworlds, the Corsair fleets of Outcasts, and the Dark Eldar pirates.

Make of that what you will.

*sighs*
Manchu, I understand the timeline perfectly, having laid it out many many times before in other Dark Eldar fluff threads for those not so well versed in it.

Allow me to reiterate the initial question here.

I can't find any mention of this anywhere in the fluff. Can an Eldar fall to the path of violence and depravity and thereby become a Dark Eldar? Or was it just a one-off thing when the Dark Eldar managed to escape Slaanesh's birth and subsequent soul-feasting?

To which my reply is quite simply this. Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar are the same species. They are physically identical. Dark and craftworld are just tags denoting where they come from. You and I are both humans despite originating from different areas of the world.

I'm not too sure you understand what the Thirst is. It is nothing more than a by-product of ingesting refined souls. If you took a far-seer, and fed him souls for thirty years, he too would begin to develop the Thirst. It is not a physical distinction between the two. Dark Eldar are not born with the Thirst.

As to the tone of the Haemonculus, he makes a clear distinction between "us" and "them" in the last sentence you quoted. I do not detect any willingness on his part to accept the Craftworld Eldar. It seems to me that he is reminding his master that there can be no such reunion.

Who said he was willing to 'accept' the Craftworld Eldar? I merely said that he was talking with an air of contempt, and disgust rather than outright hatred. What I said, if you actually read my post, is that the Dark Eldar society would be accepting (as in, it would treat them with equal respect as they would one born in the Dark City) of a regular Eldar who wandered in, adopted their lifestyle, and began to ingest souls and stab backs with the rest of them. So yes, he does indeed make a clear distinction between 'them' and 'us'. But to quote a farmer, what's that got to do with the price of cheese? That's why you have Eldar and Dark Eldar codexes, they are separate cultures. That has absolutely nothing to do with how they would treat a craftworld Eldar who was not 'foolish', who did not 'resist their true self' and who was not 'blinded to the truth'.

If a Craftworld Eldar moved to Commorragh, and engaged in all the practices and cultural aspects of the 'Dark' Eldar, he would for all intents and purposes be a 'Dark' Eldar. They are all the same species, the prefix of 'Dark' merely refers to which particular branch of Eldar culture they espouse.

As to the chronology of the Path system and the spirit stones, there are indications they were actually developed after the fall, but that's a whole other topic and pointless to the question on hand. Along with the rest of the Eldar history.

The last comment is one that refers to the humans that cannot differentiate between Craftworld Eldar corsairs, Dark Eldar corsairs, and renegade Corsairs, as they are all Eldar. Therefore in many an Imperial citizens mind, they all equal 'Eldar Corsair'. Which is again, completely irrelevant, as the viewpoint of Imperial citizens has nothing to do with the topic on discussion.

You still have yet to produce a single piece of substantive evidence with which to defend your claims here Manchu, which it must be said, is most unlike you.

I totally agree with Manchu. It is near impossible for any eldar to turn the dark eldar. It would never happen. Plus all the eldar are taught on how to avoid this. but some do turn into corsairs and priates only because they want to regain their empire or just for the craftworld they respond to. Look at prince Yriel. He came back. He was very vicious as a priate. the eldar are kinda like the alpha legion. always planning ahead. (except in some cases.)
so how can they turn traitor? Where not talking about humanity here.
This the eldar they are beings of massive intellegence they are smarter than the dark eldar.

I agree wholly with Ketara on this one.

The only difference between an Eldar and a Dark Eldar is the Path. And the OP has asked us that if he strays from the path could he possibly become a Dark Eldar?

It seems obvious that the answer is yes. Think of it more as a change of religeons, if a Christian were to convert to Satanism or something, then they would be accepted (if not trusted). Christians and Satanists are not two different species, they are people following two different belief systems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asherian Command wrote:Plus all the eldar are taught on how to avoid this. but some do turn into corsairs and priates only because they want to regain their empire or just for the craftworld they respond to. Look at prince Yriel. He came back. He was very vicious as a priate.

Many stray from this path, and not all become corsairs for noble reasons. Yriel was one of those noble corsairs, but canon states that while one corsair may be magnamonius and merciful, another could be cruel and downright sadistic.

This the eldar they are beings of massive intellegence they are smarter than the dark eldar.

*facepalm*

You know Manchu, whilst we might be disagreeing here, all I can say is, at least unlike Asherian, you have a grasp of Eldar history. Do you want to enlighten him, or shall I?

And Emperor, that's actually a very excellent way of putting it. If a Jew becomes a Protestant, will all Protestants always go about shaking their heads, and muttering about how the convert is 'not a proper Protestant'? Both entail very different ways of life, yet one can move from one to another. A Jew can become a Protestant, because at the end of the day, they are the same species, and can change their lifestyle. Although it must be said, once a 'Dark' Eldar, if the Thirst has a good grip on you, you don't really have the option of changing back again. Kind of a one way path.

Ketara wrote:You still have yet to produce a single piece of substantive evidence with which to defend your claims here Manchu, which it must be said, is most unlike you.

From my perspective, neither have you. Again, it seems to me that you think the prefix "Dark" has the same meaning as the prefix "Chaos." Let me again give the example of the Craftworld Eldar who decides to rough it with the Exodites. No matter what he does, he will never be an Exodite. See Eldar Codex, pg 11: "Some Eldar leave for the distant Exodite worlds, living for many years amongst the Exodites, though they are rarely ever truly accepted by their new hosts." Even in this case, the extremely rare "acceptance" is not the same thing as becoming an Exodite. The term Exodite is a something like what we lawyers call a "closed class." It is a group that cannot be joined. Everyone who was ever or will ever be an Exodite is already determined by lineage. Exodites are the people who left the Crone Worlds in rejection of cultural decadence before the Fall and there descendants. A Craftworld Eldar, even one living among them and even one "truly" accepted by them, is still just a Craftworld Eldar living with some Exodites that may or may not "truly" accept him. The same is true of Dark Eldar. "Dark" Eldar are not merely Eldar who are decadent like Chaos Marines being Marines who have fallen to Chaos. Dark Eldar are the people who survived the Fall, escaped into the Webway, built Cammorragh, and raid from their into the Materium to find souls and their descendants. (As an aside, I think your descirption of the Thirst is a bit off. It was my understanding that all Eldar are "born with it," to use your phrase, and the Craftworld Eldar are protected from it by Spirit Stones + Infinity Circuits while the Exodites are protected by Spirit Stones + World Spirits.) Even if a Craftworld Eldar was "truly" accepted by Dark Eldar, he would still only be a Craftworld Eldar living amonst Dark Eldar. So to answer Cheese's question, again, a "fallen" Eldar (presumably, one who throws away his Waystone and commences to slaving for souls) does not become a Dark Eldar. He's just a nasty Craftworld Eldar acting like a Dark Eldar just as, in my example of trying to be a Frenchman, I'd be that American guy with the French passport who speaks not terrible French.

Very carefully.

I think eldar could turn to the dark side, just not very easily though.

Manchu wrote:Same species means nothing. After being born and bred in the US of A, can I turn into a Korean? How about French? How about if I put on a beret and drink some wine?

With the right paper work and a good plastic surgeon.

Saying that Craftworld and DE are mortal enemies is completely wrong. If anything, they both have a mortal enemy in the necrons.

They don't like each other. Sometimes they attack and kill each other. At other times they're work together, but always keeping one eye on their backs (DE are obviously better at that since they do it their entire lives anyway).

Would a group of Craftworlders be welcomed with open arms? No, but they may be accepted as 'business associates', functioning on the outskirts as just another minor kabal. Over time, as new eldar are born and raised in that culture, they may become more and more embedded until they are true DE. The same example as the american in france; if they bred with french, than their children or at least their grandchildren would be seen as properly french.

Part of me wonders if a more likely option is eldar of an already decadnt bent, such as corsairs, getting captured by a kabal. Some would obviously be consumed or tortured in many ways, etc. But could some be 'broken' and accepted somewhat? I could see the DE doing something like forcefully removing each soulstone in turn, enjoying the suffering it causes, leaving the eldar weakened and desperate (since their own souls are leeched just like DE souls, they just catch them in the soulstones as they go and keep them close so it doesn't affect them) and dumping a mangled and weakened slave at their feet; whispering that they are fading and if they wish to preserve themselves they know what they must do, pressing a knife into their hands and taunting until they make the kill and struggle to consume the fleeing essence, feeling the resulting rush that no craftworlder does, bound and restrained by their own will as they are, a blossoming addiction as they begin to crave those sensations again...

Even if it isn't strictly fluff, it's an idea I take FAR too much intricate pleasure in.


Oh, and in Apoc DE can take corsair pirate flyers, so they definitely work together at times. Probably a simple mutual benefits arrangement.

The religious conversion idea is exactly the wrong way to look at it IMO. To use the Jewish example, a Christian converting to Judaism may profess the Jewish faith but is s/he Jewish culturally? Nope. And if you don't believe me, go ahead and ask some Jews this question. They'll tell you all about how the Jews, descending from a very particular (genetically proven) lineage are a people set apart from all other peoples. This is why I used the example of trying to "convert" to becoming a Korean or Frenchman. No matter how well I speak French, how long I live in France, whether or not I have ze French citienship, I will be forever known to my French neighbors and friends as that American ex-pat.

@Manchu: Actually, the Thirst is sort of 'grown' into. At a very young age a DE will feel nothing, but (and this is mentioned somewhere in DE canon) as they grow older they feel the claws of Slaanesh sinking in and need to sacrifice more and more souls to stave it off.

(The example was a Dracon trying to overthrow her own archaon, the Archaon defeated her and told how her, compared to his, her thirst was a mere grumble, at that age he needed hundreds of souls every day.)



I don't quite understand why you think the DE are a 'closed society'.

Manchu wrote:The religious conversion idea is exactly the wrong way to look at it IMO. To use the Jewish example, a Christian converting to Judaism may profess the Jewish faith but is s/he Jewish culturally? Nope. And if you don't believe me, go ahead and ask some Jews this question. They'll tell you all about how the Jews, descending from a very particular (genetically proven) lineage are a people set apart from all other peoples. This is why I used the example of trying to "convert" to becoming a Korean or Frenchman. No matter how well I speak French, how long I live in France, whether or not I have ze French citienship, I will be forever known to my French neighbors and friends as that American ex-pat.

Where are you getting the religious conversion idea from?

I'm sorry, Manchu, but again, you have nothing to substantiate your claim. Okay, fine, you choose to ignore my comments about what the Archon has said in favour of your own argument. You choose to discount every piece of evidence I have given you you. Sure. That means that at worst, I have a theory of equal weight to yours, as you have provided nothing to give your argument any substantiation. No fluff, nothing.

Your fluff on the Exodites is again, irrelevant. We're not talking about other branches of society here. We are talking about Eldar from any other walk of life joining the Dark Eldar society in Commorragh. I'll happily concede that a Dark Eldar could not become an Eldar, or a Craftworld Eldar an exodite. It's still all completely irrelevant though.

Even if a Craftworld Eldar was "truly" accepted by Dark Eldar, he would still only be a Craftworld Eldar living amonst Dark Eldar.

So hang on. Even if a Craftworld Eldar joined in Dark Eldar society, was accepted by them, and lived the rest of his life like them, he wouldn't be one? What? The 'Dark' is nothing more than a prefix referring to their cultural lifestyle. They are all still Eldar!

As to the Thirst, it's a common misconception you have there. Dark Eldar ingest souls to extend their lifespan, and shore up their own souls. However, as time goes on, a craving begins to develop, and greater and greater numbers of souls are required. Like a potent drug, the ecstasy once experienced over one soul diminishes. Not only that, the 'flavour' of a soul, if sampled too much, again, diminishes. So the Haemonculus torture people in order to make their souls 'tastier'. The more you extend your life by ingesting souls, the more souls you need to ingest to extend your life. It's a cruel never-ending vicious cycle. However, if you never ingest the souls in the first place, the problem never occurs. The Dark Eldar method of avoiding Slaanesh is to ensure that they don't die. Simple as that.

EDIT: As a Jew, I understand where you are coming from Manchu.
However, the flaw with that argument is that unlike the Exodites, who as you pointed out, demand you must be an exodite culturally, you have no proof that the Dark Eldar require the same. In
fact, the evidence appears to contradict it.

Morgrim wrote:Where are you getting the religious conversion idea from?

Emperors Faithful wrote: Think of it more as a change of religeons, if a Christian were to convert to Satanism or something, then they would be accepted (if not trusted). Christians and Satanists are not two different species, they are people following two different belief systems.

Morgrim wrote:

Part of me wonders if a more likely option is eldar of an already decadnt bent, such as corsairs, getting captured by a kabal. Some would obviously be consumed or tortured in many ways, etc. But could some be 'broken' and accepted somewhat? I could see the DE doing something like forcefully removing each soulstone in turn, enjoying the suffering it causes, leaving the eldar weakened and desperate (since their own souls are leeched just like DE souls, they just catch them in the soulstones as they go and keep them close so it doesn't affect them) and dumping a mangled and weakened slave at their feet; whispering that they are fading and if they wish to preserve themselves they know what they must do, pressing a knife into their hands and taunting until they make the kill and struggle to consume the fleeing essence, feeling the resulting rush that no craftworlder does, bound and restrained by their own will as they are, a blossoming addiction as they begin to crave those sensations again...

Even if it isn't strictly fluff, it's an idea I take FAR too much intricate pleasure in.

Hmmm, good story. MOAR!

@Ketara: You really haven't offered any substantiation, just an interpretation that I do not agree with for the reasons I've stated. You are correct to say that we both have "theories" but whether they have equal weight in terms of logical value is another matter. Clearly, you think yours outweighs mine and I think the opposite. They are certainly equal, however, in terms of canonical standing as neither of us can produce an example of a Craftworld Eldar becoming a Dark Eldar or a statement saying that it's impossible.

As to your comments about the Thirst, I have a couple of questions: Didn't Slaanesh suck the souls out of the vast majority of the Eldar upon her/his birth? Isn't s/he called by all Eldar "She Who Thirsts"? I know Eldar fear being consumed by Slaanesh above all other things (except maybe the extinction of their way of life).

yes, you are correct. Slaanesh glutted herself on the Eldar souls. Which is why most of the craftworlds and Exodite worlds were okay, becuase she was so fattened.

Apparently, Slaanesh spared the DE becuase they have given her so much more pleasure through the pain inflicted on others.

Ultimately our disagreement comes down to this Manchu. You believe that the Dark Eldar, like the Exodites, are a select society that refuse to fully recognise any who were not born into it, and that the prefix of 'dark' is not just a description of their lifestyle, but also their genetic heritage.

That's fair enough. There's no case in fluff stating the exact contrary to this. I disagree with this, as I believe that the prefix of 'dark' is nothing more than a cultural description, but again, like you, there is nothing to directly state this. It's a bit too specific with regards to what importance you attach to grammatical prefixes to have been included in the codex.

With regards to the Dark Eldars view of the Eldar, even if one considers your version of Dark Eldar heritage and culture to be correct, I still believe I have provided enough adequate proof with my Archon's quote, to indicate the Dark Eldar's attitude towards the Craftworld Eldar. One of contempt, and disgust, rather than outright hatred. Concede me this at least.

You are correct on your comments on Slaanesh, I presume the Thirst was named after Slaanesh's title of 'She Who Thirsts', as both Slaanesh, and the desire to eat other people's souls have something in common!
The Dark Eldar do, I presume, fear Slaanesh as much as the next Eldar fellow, but rather than encasing their their spirits in big rocks or world tombs, they simply try and live forever. An interesting solution, it must be said. Slaves are trafficked through the Dark Eldar cities in the webway to such a huge extent, that if you gain any kind of power or influence, you can prolong your life indefinitely.

I think you sum up our difference pretty well. My own summary is this:

Ketara: The prefix "dark" simply means "evil." If a Craftworld Eldar is evil then he is a Dark Eldar.

Manchu: An evil Craftworld Eldar is simply an evil Craftworld Eldar, even if he has a leather fetish and likes eating souls.

I see what you mean about contempt versus hatred and agree BUT I have to reiterate that I think this proves nothing with regard to Craftworld Eldar becoming Dark Eldar.

Hmm. I wouldn't say an evil Eldar is a dark Eldar, but that an Evil Eldar who sucks souls and lives in Commorragh is.

And oh, certainly. It proves nothing either way, but I thought it an interesting distinction to make, simply because I'm now considering doing a Dark Eldar themed force which is made up of 'fallen Eldar' who hang around Commorragh, and trade with the more regular Dark Eldar.

That's actually a perfect example of what I mean. That kind of army would use Codex: Eldar rules right?

I would probably convert units which could count as being from both codexes, so as to kill two birds, and collect two armies with one stone.

I sold up my old incredibly ugly Dark Eldar force the other day, and have been planning out a number of Eldar/Dark Eldar hybrids to make some decent looking models. This simply gives me the fluff to back it up with.

Well, an Eldar Corsair wouldn't HAVE to be accepted by the DE. He could just turn up with his fleet and make his own Kabal.

It's not like they'd unite or anything...

I actually like most of the DE metals, old as they are (unless you mean ones that are even older), but then again I love my metal sisters, too.

As to the fluff, when you're using units from two different books in one army and neither is Inquisition . . . well, fluff is hardly the main concern!

I was always of the belief that the Dark Eldar were fundamentally corrupted in a way that the Craftworlders and Exodites were not.

Otherwise why such an ineffective plan for staying alive? There's no way attempting to live forever is going to be a better option than the use of the Craftworld's spirit stones. Even if they didn't want to give up their way of life, you would think they would at least use spirit stones to try and stave off some of their destruction.

@Orkeo: This is why I thought the Thirst affected all Eldar and the Dark Eldar simply have no access to Spirit Stones because they'd never be caught dead (pun intended) in the Eye of Terror trying to get some.

@Ketara: We deserve the "how discussions should be had" award. ::shakes your hand::

A non-flamed discussion = Internet High-Five!

When an Eldar dies, their spirit returns to the Warp, where Slaanesh gets to eat it. As Eldar souls are strong enough to maintain a vestige of consciousness after death, it's the worst possible ending for them.

It's all too possible Dark Eldar don't have access to Spirit stones, that may be why they were forced to eat souls in the first place. It's not documented, so I couldn't say either way. I would postulate though, that Dark Eldar society has functioned on slaves and souls for so long now, even given the chance, they wouldn't use spirit stones. Eating a soul is meant to be the ultimate form of ecstasy, one tortured and distilled to the edge of death and held there for a thousand years even more so. Once you've tasted that kind of pleasure, it would be difficult to go back.

*shakes hand*

Always good to get the old intellectual muscles pumping.

A lot of the confusion comes from the skimpy fluff sections in the DE Codex. If they ever redo it, I'm sure this will all be more clear. We might even get some clarifications in the upcoming Gav Thorpe series but I doubt they will be in the first novel.

In the meantime, regardless of cannon , Morgrim might want to write a novel for us or something.

It would be nice to get some fresh fluff. I've gathered everything they've ever produced on the dark eldar religously, but unfortunately the new codex is always 'next year'.....

Don't tempt me, I have several pages of proto-fluff on my harddrive.

Including a nice little 'eldar are in a fighting retreat against chaos guard, harlequins were nearby recently, eldar scream 'help!', harlequins grab a passing raiding party, much mutual bailing while snatching slaves and glowering occurs.'

There are times I think the harlequins are the only ones that can keep DE in line.

That is there eternal curse. Actually, so far in this year's foreseeable lineup there are no new DE codex rumors. Heck, there are even Inquisitor rumors (which I hope are unfounded) and no DE ones.

And the little bit in Planetstrike was so encouraging.

Then again, there was a second one in WD, so at least it seems unlikely they'll be squatted.

We also had the short story in Tales of Heresy where the Archon was even wearing a Vexanthrope or Hellmask or something. Plus he fought Space Wolves. I was in fanboy heaven for that story (then had to cringe through that really horrible Dark Angel one)

An interesting debate betwixt Manchu and Ketara of which I'm afraid I can offer no true deeper answer. I will say I agree with Ketara insomuch as Dark Eldar is more of a label and their proper title is simply Eldar (who happen to believe in torture and awesome blown back 80's hair).

As to whether a Craftworld Eldar could "become" a Dark Eldar? Certainly all references in Imperial timelines to Eldar pirates can almost refer to either Corsairs or Dark Eldar. I'll agree with Manchu that I don't think they'd ever be trusted - but then again, it's very much canon that DE don't trust each other anyway, so is that much of a difference? Though I'm pretty sure it's canon that Eldar souls are much beloved of DE as the sweetest of all - so any Corsair wanting to hang out in the Dark City better be on his toes even if he's being treated nice. I think Manchu's example of an American in Paris is a pretty accurate way to describe it - yeah, they can probably walk the walk, talk the talk, and drink the souls. But in the final analysis they are still "Craftworld" Eldar in the eyes of all the "Dark" Eldar (though to any outside observer there's probably no way to tell so it probably doesn't matter.

I do agree with Ketara that on a base genetic level I don't think there's much of a difference, if any, between the races. If 'The Torturer's Tale' is to be accepted as canon (and I certainly wish it to be) then Vect is an Eldar born and somewhat raised prior to the appearance of Slaanesh - which makes him of the same stock as the Craftworld boys to my way of thinking.

You wouldn't need to have been born after The Fall to be corrupted by it; I took The Torturer's Tale as implying that the Dark Eldar were of a different tier of damage from the Fall than the Craftworlders. Sort of how different proximities to a nuclear bomb will affect people differently.

The closest were immediately consumed by Slaanesh, the next furthest instantly went insane and either killed themselves or were killed by others, the next furthest (those on the borders of the empire) were corrupted but rallied under Vect's banner and fled to Commoragh (where they must feed on souls and mostly stay in the webway to survive), and those outside of the empire were not really corrupted but are still hunted (and must stay on The Path/continue to be space Amish and use spirit stones to avoid being found and destroyed).

In that case it wouldn't really be a genetic difference but more of a curse on them and their descendants (that Craftworlders would not normally be privy to).

To reiterate, I do not think that there is any genetic difference between DE and Craftworlders. But I have a similar opinion to Orkeo--DE are the specific cultural product of surviving the Fall. Craftworlders are certainly affected by it (@Thor: are we sure they're unaffected by the Thirst because they never imbibed soul rather than because of Spirit Stones? if so, the are even less affected by it--maybe only as much as humans) but every moment in the life of any given DE is entirely shaped by that event. Craftworlders have no inkling of She Who Thirsts compared to the DE. I almost feel that a "bad as I wanna be" Craftworlder would be laughed to scorn by DE as merely a "wannabe."

Orkeosaurus wrote:The closest were immediately consumed by Slaanesh, the next furthest instantly went insane and either killed themselves or were killed by others, the next furthest (those on the borders of the empire) were corrupted but rallied under Vect's banner and fled to Commoragh (where they must feed on souls and mostly stay in the webway to survive), and those outside of the empire were not really corrupted but are still hunted.

As described in Torturer's Tale it actually had more to do with how deep into the pleasure cults they were. Vect was young and uninitiated and thus wasn't chosen as an optimum munchy, the high priest of a pleasure cult who was about to slit his throat was very much affected. Distance had no real bearing on it as far as I can tell from that story. All Eldar equally feel the pull of Slaanesh on their souls and all are equally and identically doomed when they die.

They have two different solutions to the identical problem

Manchu wrote:Craftworlders are certainly affected by it (@Thor: are we sure they're unaffected by the Thirst because they never imbibed soul rather than because of Spirit Stones? if so, the are even less affected by it--maybe only as much as humans) but every moment in the life of any given DE is entirely shaped by that event.

I disagree. The Thirst has nothing to do directly with the Fall. The Thirst is a side effect to the solution discovered by Vect and the other survivors who eventually became Dark Eldar. As I mentioned above, both groups have an equal problem with what happens to their souls when they die. Torturer's Tale does indicate that the DE went into the WebWay to escape some of the "pull" of Slaanesh, though it is never clear what this pull is or why (or if) it's greater on them then Craftworld Eldar - but there is that as a potential difference between the factions. But both sides are trying to avoid having their souls eaten by Slaanesh and that is a fate they share.

Just to clarify - I'm describing the Thirst as the continual hunger a DE feels to consume more and more souls as he channels and feeds off soul energy to extend his life.

Craftworlders have no inkling of She Who Thirsts compared to the DE. I almost feel that a "bad as I wanna be" Craftworlder would be laughed to scorn by DE as merely a "wannabe."

I could see them being laughed at - but if they give up the soul stone solution and start supping souls they're effectively DE if not culturally so. I would presume that due to the work of the Harlequins the Eldar are fairly well aware of the whole Slaanesh situation equally so to the DE. Have you read anything to suggest different?

Thor665 wrote:As described in Torturer's Tale it actually had more to do with how deep into the pleasure cults they were. Vect was young and uninitiated and thus wasn't chosen as an optimum munchy, the high priest of a pleasure cult who was about to slit his throat was very much affected. Distance had no real bearing on it as far as I can tell from that story. All Eldar equally feel the pull of Slaanesh on their souls and all are equally and identically doomed when they die.

Looking back on it there appears to be some of both.

"Our Lord, young as he was, was not so steeped in the pleasure and ecstasy of our peoples, so along with many other of the children he had not been as strongly tied to the Great Enemy."

"for the emergence of the Great Enemy created the vortex known to you as the Eye of Terror, engulfing our oldest worlds"

They have two different solutions to the identical problem

Except the Dark Eldar solution is hugely inferior. That's really the issue with them, there is no logical reason for the Dark Eldar to chose such a poor plan of escape if they are in fact no different from the Craftworlders and Exodites. Other than SO EBIL.

Yes, Eldar Codex mentions that DE were not even known to exist until some centuries after the Fall before which time the Caftworlders assumed only they and the Exodites had survived. The Codex also mentions that how the DE escaped remains a "great mystery." The presumption, on the part of Craftworlders, seems to be that by rejecting (either from the beginning or at least at a point significantly before the Fall) the degeneration of Eldar culture, the Craftworlders and Exodites were not affected. This tends to support Orkeo's view (or some less spatially dependent version of it) over against the view presented in "Torturer's Tale" (what was that in?). That view is also somewhat discredited by the fact that there is no indication that any Craftworlder was killed upon the birth of Slaanesh despite the fact that all of them had been involved to some extent in the Pleasure Cults (they were the repentant Eldar, not the abstainers) and some had very likely indulged more deeply than others. The notion that no Craftworlders died as an immediate result of the Fall, unlike the unrepentant Eldar, also supports the view that repentance--going off in a Craftworld--is what shielded them from the Fall and so leave mysterious how those who became the Dark Eldar could have survived.

You could also say that they would have attributed their survival to the use of Waystones/Spirit Stones but it's a difficult point. If the Waystones were being used before the Fall (and they must have been, given that Exodites use them and Craftworlds predate the Fall) then it was presumably to keep their souls from entering the Warp. If this was the case, then the Craftworlders were not the only ones using Way Stones for this purpose. The unrepentant would have been using them as well (unless it was part of the Cults not to) but we know that if they did use them it was of no aide to them when Slaanesh was born.

Finally, the idea that only those sufficiently corrupted by the Pleasure Cults being killed/driven mad by the Fall is not supported generally because this event killed off the vast majority of the Eldar population. So if only those most deeply involved in the Cults were affected then Vect was at that point one of the most innocent (like 99th percentile) members of the entire species, which seems more than a little absurd. Seems to me that why some survived and other did not remains a mystery for which each people has their own self-serving half-answer.

I hate to beat a dead horse but all of these issues point to all Eldar being affected by the Thirst. Exodites and Craftworlders are protected by their use of Spirit Stones, Infinity Circuits, and World Spirits while the Webway somewhat inulates DE who nonetheless must (and prefer, anyway) to replenish the life that Slaanesh sucks out of them by sucking it out of others. Maybe Orkeo is right and the Fall rendered DE unable to use Spirit Stones. I'm inclined to believe that they are too frightened to go into the Eye of Terror to get them.

It could be a combination of distance and how deeply they were steeped in the pleasure cults. Those closer were affected far more severely than those further away, but that nature provided some measure of shielding. To use the nuclear explosion metaphor: those furtherest away are safe from the initial blast, but not the fallout and some of the secondary affects. Those closer get the full brunt, but can mitigate it by other means (such as being underground, in a storm shelter etc). This is not going to let them get off scot free, but it helps.

It may also be telling that those with the deepest grip of the thirst are definitely the oldest. It is possible that they were the ones that were alive when Slaanesh was born, so the claws are sunk far deeper than DE born later within the protection of the webway. There is no way there society could sustain itself if all oldish DE required ten thousand souls a day. Where one alive during the cataclysm may, one only a few years younger - but born afterwards - may require only a fraction of that, and the age difference is not going to be significant over the millennium since it occurred.

The Torturer's Tale also suggests that there was a brief period of time where their were eldar still on the planets within the Eye yet were not completely consumed. One can assume that the initial blast and the jockying for position (and likely massive wars) that were happening amongst the demons prevented the worlds being taken over by demons immediately, or maybe it took some time for the Eye to coalesces so that they could make the jump. That bit isn't as important as the fact that Slaanesh was in a prime position to consume the surviors. Maybe it was a full stomach situation; 'I've just eaten huge numbers of souls. I'm stuffed. I'll pick up the crumbs afterwards.'

Hrythar Dreamweave, Wild Rider wrote:The wind whipping across your face as your blades whip across the throats of the foe. It makes the blood sing.

Somehow... I don't think the eldar are nearly as immune to the impulses that they condemn as they would like. That is very close to what the reaver jetbikers say. So the possibility of embracing such a nature is certainly there. The Path of the Outcast is known to be those that wander about and rangers and pathfinders, and are still accepted. But there is the unspecified Path of Damnation, whom the craftworlds refuse to speak of. I think this means those that either fall into chaos, or fall into the sort of depravity that they associate with the DE. So it seems possible that at least some of these could be found within Commorragh. It'd explain why they cannot be spoken of, merely suggesting to young eldar that this is possible would be something that the leaders would strive to prevent. Such a thing may only tempt them.

And to address the 'dark being an appellation' thing, I think it's one given by humans. The eldar refer to their soulstealing brethren as 'Druchii'. The word for harlequin is Rillietann. The word for craftworlders may be along the lines of 'fian', since it is used in several phrases that could be self referring. Either way, they're all different enough that it seems one is not a mere 'we'll tack one a descriptive word to one of the others' but more a name for a culture, in the same way that we refer to americans or french, not 'flagwaving humans' or 'frogeating humans'.

@Manchu: Actually, a lot, one might even suppose most of the Craftworlds were destroyed as they fled, and even some exodite worlds.

Sry i'm just a 40k lore fanatic who knows too much about the horus hersey and crap like that. Lore is my side of the force. Porn is for people from WoW. But still The Eldar could never truly fall.

They cannot become blood thristiy and brutal beasts like their dark cousins. No they have too much pride. which was the down fall of their entire race.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

They have two different solutions to the identical problem

Except the Dark Eldar solution is hugely inferior. That's really the issue with them, there is no logical reason for the Dark Eldar to chose such a poor plan of escape if they are in fact no different from the Craftworlders and Exodites. Other than SO EBIL.

I would argue that their solution is quite justifiable (as expressed in Torturer's Tale again. To them the mon-keigh and other races of that ilk are like weak and short lived beasts. To their mind all they are doing is killing cattle for sustenance (after all, humans don't even perceive emotions in remotely the same manner Eldar do). What is a few hundred beasts in order to ensure the life of such a worthy race as the Eldar? Also, why use spirit stones? Is it their goal to shrivel up in a ball and try to hold back and restrain the full glory of their potential experiences in a monk-like shadowy existence of what could be? And you call their choice inferior? The True Eldar live life to the fullest at the cost of a paltry few thousand insects - I say to you they have chosen the only worthwhile choice.

Manchu wrote:The presumption, on the part of Craftworlders, seems to be that by rejecting (either from the beginning or at least at a point significantly before the Fall) the degeneration of Eldar culture, the Craftworlders and Exodites were not affected. This tends to support Orkeo's view (or some less spatially dependent version of it) over against the view presented in "Torturer's Tale" (what was that in?).

I comment on some of this below - Torturer's Tale originally appeared in White Dwarf (241 according to a quick web search) and also was hosted for a time on the GW site when they hosted fluff. Nwadays you can maybe find it posted up in some corner of the web. If you want a copy give me a holler and I'll PM you the text.

That view is also somewhat discredited by the fact that there is no indication that any Craftworlder was killed upon the birth of Slaanesh despite the fact that all of them had been involved to some extent in the Pleasure Cults (they were the repentant Eldar, not the abstainers) and some had very likely indulged more deeply than others. The notion that no Craftworlders died as an immediate result of the Fall, unlike the unrepentant Eldar, also supports the view that repentance--going off in a Craftworld--is what shielded them from the Fall and so leave mysterious how those who became the Dark Eldar could have survived.

...ah, I strongly disagree. Go to, let's say 4th edition Codex Eldar (the current book) and flip to page 5 'the Dying' first paragraph and you will read about how "most" Craftworlders died in the creation of Slaanesh. The Craftworlders had some theories about it being location to the "creation point" but as proven by Vect's and others survival it appears more likely that there was some specific quality of a soul that drew Slaanesh to eat those she did first.

You could also say that they would have attributed their survival to the use of Waystones/Spirit Stones but it's a difficult point. If the Waystones were being used before the Fall (and they must have been, given that Exodites use them and Craftworlds predate the Fall) then it was presumably to keep their souls from entering the Warp. If this was the case, then the Craftworlders were not the only ones using Way Stones for this purpose. The unrepentant would have been using them as well (unless it was part of the Cults not to) but we know that if they did use them it was of no aide to them when Slaanesh was born.

And was of no help to the Craftworlders either. My personal presumption is that both the Exodites and Craftworlders developed the Spirit Stones after the fall. In the Codex they are specifically called out as a means to prevent entering the Warp and being hunted down by Slaanesh's minions. Perhaps there used to be a time before Slaanesh where the souls wouldn't specifically be drawn to the Warp. Honestly I don't know as there is no fluff evidence I'm aware of to go either way. But there does appear to be ample and solid evidence that if the SPirit Stones existed before the Fall they did nothing to protect the Craftworlders who did die in great numbers during The Fall

Finally, the idea that only those sufficiently corrupted by the Pleasure Cults being killed/driven mad by the Fall is not supported generally because this event killed off the vast majority of the Eldar population. So if only those most deeply involved in the Cults were affected then Vect was at that point one of the most innocent (like 99th percentile) members of the entire species, which seems more than a little absurd. Seems to me that why some survived and other did not remains a mystery for which each people has their own self-serving half-answer.

Deeply is too strong of a word - Vect's description was "more deeply" which is then simply a matter of degrees. He could very well have his own twist to put on it - perhaps Slaanesh left alive those who she thought would be most destructive? But then why leave alive any Craftworlders unless they are far more destructive then they themselves are aware? My suspicion is that Vect's claim holds a kernel of truth as it meets with all the evidence we have available to us.

I hate to beat a dead horse but all of these issues point to all Eldar being affected by the Thirst. Exodites and Craftworlders are protected by their use of Spirit Stones, Infinity Circuits, and World Spirits while the Webway somewhat inulates DE who nonetheless must (and prefer, anyway) to replenish the life that Slaanesh sucks out of them by sucking it out of others. Maybe Orkeo is right and the Fall rendered DE unable to use Spirit Stones. I'm inclined to believe that they are too frightened to go into the Eye of Terror to get them.

If by Thirst you mean Slaanesh eating them I fully, and have been fully agreeing with you.
If by Thirst you men the desire to drink souls I have been disagreeing with you.
I think DE choose not to use Spirit Stones because they consider it a coward's way out and a choice to not experience their senses to the fullest which is against their pleasure cult mentality.

Morgrim wrote:It may also be telling that those with the deepest grip of the thirst are definitely the oldest.

It is fairly clearly outlined in DE fluff that as one drinks more souls one develops more thirst. So those that have been doing it the longest will of course have more hunger.

Asherian Command wrote:They cannot become blood thristiy and brutal beasts like their dark cousins. No they have too much pride. which was the down fall of their entire race.

They cannot fall because they have too much pride? Someone needs to re-read their Proverbs 16:18.

I don't think a craftworld, or even exodite would ever welcome a Dark eldar no matter how reformed.

The original craftworld eldar were the ones who were not decadent and depraved and had not "fallen". They created a new society with paths to give purpose and prevent people from falling into the dark kin's ways. I don't think they would want the taint of someone who had fallen around them, would prolly cause some kind of eldar psychic bad mojo.

As for dark eldar welcoming craftword eldar? I don't think they welcome each other but I doubt they would care if a craftworld eldar had joined them as long as their purpose was served.

The last edition (3e) eldar codex shows the cycle and paths of eldar life and at the bottom is basically outcast thent he fallen. so I am pretty sure It is possible for a craftworld eldar to fall.

Thor665 wrote:I would argue that their solution is quite justifiable (as expressed in Torturer's Tale again. To them the mon-keigh and other races of that ilk are like weak and short lived beasts. To their mind all they are doing is killing cattle for sustenance (after all, humans don't even perceive emotions in remotely the same manner Eldar do). What is a few hundred beasts in order to ensure the life of such a worthy race as the Eldar? Also, why use spirit stones? Is it their goal to shrivel up in a ball and try to hold back and restrain the full glory of their potential experiences in a monk-like shadowy existence of what could be? And you call their choice inferior? The True Eldar live life to the fullest at the cost of a paltry few thousand insects - I say to you they have chosen the only worthwhile choice.

Come on now Thor, no one cares about those monkey things running around.

What I mean is that the Dark Eldar are all eventually consumed. I mean, Vect is the oldest of the Dark Eldar, isn't he? In that case we know the first generation is already mostly dead. You pretty much have to work your way up to Archon to continue surviving (due to the huge number of souls they must consume) into old age and there would have to be almost as many Archons as Warriors if the Dark Eldar were doing a good job at not dying.

Remember, the dark eldar race does appear to be expanding slowly, despite their harsh way of life. This indicates a prodigal birth rate. Not only that, but the appearance of new dark eldar cities other than Commorragh also indicates new domains for new Archons to rule.

Well thats of course assuming the dark eldar arent mating and proliferating

when you setup conditions to increase lifespan, eventually with no change in birthrate your population will increase instead of decrease. But as people are living longer there is most likely going to be a increase in birthrate as well.

I guess the constant drow-style backstabbing helps keep the numbers down at the higher echelons.

TBH, pg 5 of Eldar Codex that Thor refers to supports Orkeo's thought about distance from the Crone Worlds being a major component of surviving. This is totally at odds with the account in "Torturer's Tale" as described. And could you PM me the text, Thor?

blaktoof wrote:Well thats of course assuming the dark eldar arent mating and proliferating

when you setup conditions to increase lifespan, eventually with no change in birthrate your population will increase instead of decrease. But as people are living longer there is most likely going to be a increase in birthrate as well.

They would have to be super space Mormons for every Archon to be the great grandparent of their entire kabal.

Manchu wrote:TBH, pg 5 of Eldar Codex that Thor refers to supports Orkeo's thought about distance from the Crone Worlds being a major component of surviving. This is totally at odds with the account in "Torturer's Tale" as described. And could you PM me the text, Thor?

It also basically says everyone died at "ground zero" which we know to be untrue. I think what the Eldar are unaware of is the connection to the pleasure cults and the death rates. I mostly quoted it to show that many Craftworld Eldar also died in Slaanesh's birth. If you accept most pleasure cultists died, and that many Craftworlders (who were semi into the cults to various degrees) died and that very few, if any, Exodites died, and that Vect, at basically ground zero, lived along with others that became DE I submit it supports the concept that those more into the cults died first rather then those closest to the birth point.

PM a coming.

How do we know Vect was at ground zero?

Please note I said "basically" at ground zero.

According to Torturer's Tale he served in "one of the most powerful temples of delight" and was a special sacrifice on a night of debauchery that probably served as the spark for Slaanesh's conflagration.

At this point we are obligated to assume that one of the most powerful pleasure temples would be at or near the center point where Slaanesh appeared, thus putting him and many other survivors at a point exceedingly closer to the blast then the many Craftworlders who also died. People all around Vect died, so it wasn't that he was in a special sealed place either. Therefore we know that what saved him was something else that didn't exist for certain Craftworlders even.

I submit it was that he wasn't as deep into the pleasure cults - since he and most of the other survivors were described as children. My theory seems to match more of the available fluff then a concept that distance was the sole factor. Distance *might* be a factor, but to survive Slaanesh's birth there clearly had to be other major considerations - otherwise Vect would not have lived while the Eldar cutting his throat died.

As I said, I think both are a factor, not simply distance.

We don't really know where "one of the most powerful temples of delight" is. Do we even know a "temple of delight" is a single building instead of a cult throughout the empire? Or that a singe more powerful temple isn't more likely to form on the outskirts of the empire where there is less competition for members?

Hmmm, good point.


What is also interesting is that other races were affected by the birth of Slaanesh. Psykers of all sorts went insane as their people died. (It says that somewhere...)

Orkeosaurus wrote:Do we even know a "temple of delight" is a single building instead of a cult throughout the empire?

I believe it is fairly clear it is a building or at most a collection of buildings as part of a complex. Torturer's tale describes him taking over his cult immediately after the fall - so they all had to be centrally located, and then describes how he went out and fought others who were part of other cults that were trying to take over. He also points out how the building they are currently occupying was at one point the heart of his new cult temple which they built when they moved into the Warp. Even if we accept that they use the term temple in a way I might say 'The Catholic Church' he still was the main course sacrifice for that temple - which means he would have had to have been at their primary sacrifice/worship spot which for a star spanning temple that was one of the most powerful would certainly suggest strong evidence that it was at the heart of the Empire.

Or that a singe more powerful temple isn't more likely to form on the outskirts of the empire where there is less competition for members?

Population centers and political methods suggest differently to my mind, though I will admit it's not spelled out explicitly - I still feel my interpretation is quite functional and more likely.

Also, I will note that Craftworld Eldar histories say everything was destroyed - and then say "wow, where did these Dark Eldar blokes come from?" If the DE blokes came from distant planets that were not ravaged by Slaanesh I question where the surprise would be. If they came from the heart of the empire that was, as far as the Eldar knew, totally wiped out, it explains their surprise.

Sounds kinda funny. Sorta like 'Surprise Evil Twin!'

Thor665 wrote:
I believe it is fairly clear it is a building or at most a collection of buildings as part of a complex. Torturer's tale describes him taking over his cult immediately after the fall - so they all had to be centrally located, and then describes how he went out and fought others who were part of other cults that were trying to take over.

Actually it just says that he was the first of his cult to react and that he rallied those around his temple.

He also points out how the building they are currently occupying was at one point the heart of his new cult temple which they built when they moved into the Warp.

What does that have to do with it?

Even if we accept that they use the term temple in a way I might say 'The Catholic Church' he still was the main course sacrifice for that temple

We don't know that, only that he was a sacrifice of some sort.

- which means he would have had to have been at their primary sacrifice/worship spot which for a star spanning temple that was one of the most powerful would certainly suggest strong evidence that it was at the heart of the Empire.

Population centers and political methods suggest differently to my mind, though I will admit it's not spelled out explicitly - I still feel my interpretation is quite functional and more likely.

Is Ophelia VII near the center of the Imperium? Is New York City near the center of the United States? Was Jerusalem near the center of Christian Europe?

Important things are far away from the center of nations all the time.

Also, I will note that Craftworld Eldar histories say everything was destroyed - and then say "wow, where did these Dark Eldar blokes come from?" If the DE blokes came from distant planets that were not ravaged by Slaanesh I question where the surprise would be.

Eh? The planets would still have been ravaged by Slaanesh, just not to the point where everything was immediately sucked into The Warp and destroyed entirely by the sun-extinguishing birth.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Thor665 wrote:
I believe it is fairly clear it is a building or at most a collection of buildings as part of a complex. Torturer's tale describes him taking over his cult immediately after the fall - so they all had to be centrally located, and then describes how he went out and fought others who were part of other cults that were trying to take over.

Actually it just says that he was the first of his cult to react and that he rallied those around his temple.

...um, yes? I'm sorry - I thought your argument was that this was possibly not the center of the powerful cult, but that the temple he was in was simply perhaps an outlying temple - I was arguing against this and quoting the above for evidence. I apparently misunderstood your original point, could you rephrase it?

He also points out how the building they are currently occupying was at one point the heart of his new cult temple which they built when they moved into the Warp.

What does that have to do with it?

It is further evidence that they use the term temple to describe a singular building of a pleasure cult - as I said, apparently I misunderstood what you were driving at if this doesn't make sense to you.

Even if we accept that they use the term temple in a way I might say 'The Catholic Church' he still was the main course sacrifice for that temple

We don't know that, only that he was a sacrifice of some sort.

I disagree, he was part of a sacrifice to celebrate an event that happens once in a millennium for one of the most powerful pleasure cults. I stand by this as solid evidence he was part of the main event at the major temple for that cult, which was one of the most powerful.

Is Ophelia VII near the center of the Imperium? Is New York City near the center of the United States? Was Jerusalem near the center of Christian Europe?

Important things are far away from the center of nations all the time.

Earth isn't at the "center" of the Imperium either because of it's location in the galaxy and the Imperium's theoretical control of said galaxy, New York is near the center of the original America. Jerusalem is at the heart of the areas controlled by religions that base strong importance upon it. That said this is all semantics, and I'm willing to accept your argument - but while we're at it the official fluff says the rent made in space "completely encompassed the Eldar realms of old" so if the Eye of Terror completely encompassed their realms it's not like we're talking a truly vast empire here. I believe that the temple Vext was at was near ground zero and have pointed out where I believe the fluff supports this theory. I have never claimed to have absolute fluffy proof - and indeed the location of the temple could just have likely been on Necromunda as in the Eldar empire. I just believe my standpoint requires less unlikely circumstances.

Also, I will note that Craftworld Eldar histories say everything was destroyed - and then say "wow, where did these Dark Eldar blokes come from?" If the DE blokes came from distant planets that were not ravaged by Slaanesh I question where the surprise would be.

Eh? The planets would still have been ravaged by Slaanesh, just not to the point where everything was immediately sucked into The Warp and destroyed entirely by the sun-extinguishing birth.

I agree - but why then would the appearance and survival of the Dark Eldar be described by the Craftworld Eldar as "a great mystery."

If it's a great mystery then that suggests that the Craftworld Eldar fully expected all Dark Eldar to be dead - if there were planets of Dark Eldar farthur from the blast that were ravaged but not wiped out, why would it be so strange to have survivors?
If survivors came from a blast zone that no one survived it would indeed be a great mystery that anyone survived.

That's why I believe the DE come from the empire that was "totally consumed" as opposed to a bunch of scattered worlds that received heavy but not total damage. It would seem illogical to suggest that Craftworlders would not have done some investigation into the devestation of their old empire, and I really do not think it likely that a bunch of DE on a bunch of different worlds would not have been noticed before then. According to Craftworld history it is them and the Exodites and everyone else was dead.

Thor665 wrote:
...um, yes? I'm sorry - I thought your argument was that this was possibly not the center of the powerful cult, but that the temple he was in was simply perhaps an outlying temple - I was arguing against this and quoting the above for evidence. I apparently misunderstood your original point, could you rephrase it?

It is further evidence that they use the term temple to describe a singular building of a pleasure cult - as I said, apparently I misunderstood what you were driving at if this doesn't make sense to you.

I was saying it could describe either a single building or a collection of buildings.

For instance, I was a part of the Lutheran church. I set my church on fire. I built a new church a little down the road.

In the first instance it refers to an organization, in the second two to buildings.

I disagree, he was part of a sacrifice to celebrate an event that happens once in a millennium for one of the most powerful pleasure cults. I stand by this as solid evidence he was part of the main event at the major temple for that cult, which was one of the most powerful.

Why?

A significant event such as this is no doubt is one of the times in which even minor temples sacrifice a great deal of people. The large number of people being sacrificed also means that it's unlikely Vect was somehow a "special sacrifice", who would need to have been brought to the central temple.

Earth isn't at the "center" of the Imperium either because of it's location in the galaxy and the Imperium's theoretical control of said galaxy,

All the more evidence for places of power to not necessarily be in the middle of an empire.

New York is near the center of the original America.

But not modern America. We don't know the territorial history of the Eldar empire.

Jerusalem is at the heart of the areas controlled by religions that base strong importance upon it.

Well, if we go by modern religions we end up with the round earth problem.

That said this is all semantics, and I'm willing to accept your argument - but while we're at it the official fluff says the rent made in space "completely encompassed the Eldar realms of old" so if the Eye of Terror completely encompassed their realms it's not like we're talking a truly vast empire here.

True.

I believe that the temple Vext was at was near ground zero and have pointed out where I believe the fluff supports this theory. I have never claimed to have absolute fluffy proof - and indeed the location of the temple could just have likely been on Necromunda as in the Eldar empire. I just believe my standpoint requires less unlikely circumstances.

I'm not saying the planet would have been outside the Eye, it pretty much states outright in ATT that it's in there. I just think it was likely nearer to the edge of the Eye than the deep rifts in the middle.

I agree - but why then would the appearance and survival of the Dark Eldar be described by the Craftworld Eldar as "a great mystery."

If it's a great mystery then that suggests that the Craftworld Eldar fully expected all Dark Eldar to be dead - if there were planets of Dark Eldar farthur from the blast that were ravaged but not wiped out, why would it be so strange to have survivors?
If survivors came from a blast zone that no one survived it would indeed be a great mystery that anyone survived.

That's why I believe the DE come from the empire that was "totally consumed" as opposed to a bunch of scattered worlds that received heavy but not total damage. It would seem illogical to suggest that Craftworlders would not have done some investigation into the devestation of their old empire, and I really do not think it likely that a bunch of DE on a bunch of different worlds would not have been noticed before then. According to Craftworld history it is them and the Exodites and everyone else was dead.

Presumabley the planets were wiped out, just not immedately; the Dark Eldar would have migrated into the webway while those who didn't make the pilgramage went insane or withered away or were otherwise destroyed by Slaanesh. By the time the Craftworlder's find anything it's just ash and corpses left.

At this point, it'd be helpful if you'd both restate your positions without all of the multi-quoting. It's hard to follow exactly for what each of you is arguing.

Yeah, good point, it's gotten a little too long.

Summary: My theory is that the Dark Eldar were those of the Eldar empire who survived the birth of Slaanesh due to a combination of distance from the epicenter (still placing them within the Eye of Terror) and their relative lack of descension into the pleasure cults. However, in surviving this they became fundamentally corrupted to a level beyond that of the Craftworlders and Exodites, which causes their souls to wither away in life. This means that soul stones are ineffective at saving them and so they fall back on the only thing that is left, which the consumption of other souls to replenish their own.

In this regard a Craftworlder could never become a true Dark Eldar, although a corsair could likely integrate into the society to a fair degree.

Position on which point?

Um, to briefly restate;

I believe the Slaanesh Eldar soul eating had very little, if anything, to do with distance from any "epicenter" point but that such soul consumption happened due to connection with pleasure cults (supported in ATT due to Vect's survival, also explains how many Craftworld Eldar were still eaten despite not being in the empire anymore and explains why the Exodites suffered less. I do not believe the Craftworld Eldar fully understand this distinction - basically this translates that I opt to let where the fluff in ATT and Codex Eldar clash to believe that ATT is the more accurate rendition). I will accept that there is more physical devastation at the epicenter due to the Warp entering physical reality - but question the level of degrees and in any case feel that every planet with DE on it was part of the Eye of Terror expanse and that 99% of all Eldar deaths at this time came at either their own hands or via the soul consumption and not by Warp entities other then Slaanesh and its proxies.

I believe and fluff supports that Vect was part of a major ceremony by one of the major pleasure cults at their temple (my personal interpretation is he was a special part of the ceremony, but that is not as clearly supported) and I believe ATT supports the belief that pleasure cults only have one temple (my earlier quotes about the Black Heart Kabal's temple and Vect organizing his cult as evidence of this - Orkeo and I clearly are confused about what each other is saying here as he didn't understand my counterpoints but does seem to be advancing the theory that I thought he was which makes me unsure why he didn't get my counterpoints that argue for a single temple building/complex for a given pleasure cult.)

I have advanced the personal belief that Vect's temple was near the epicenter (it is at the very least pretty clearly in the Eye). I also have pointed out how I believe all DE were part of planets within the primary blast zone and not stragglers from other worlds, because their re-emergence has come as a great mystery to their Craftworld kin. I think it seems more logical to suggest it as a mystery if they came from a point where everyone was supposed to be dead.

I have shown that the fluff says the entire old Eldar Empire was swallowed in the Eye of Terror. I believe this supports my above suppositions about where the DE were in relation to the event.

I have advanced the belief that both Craftworld Eldar and Dark Eldar seek to avoid being eaten painfully by Slaanesh, they accomplish this through either the soul stone defense or by the consuming of souls to help appease Slaanesh. This is fairly well supported in the fluff of Codex Eldar and ATT.

I agree with Thor665 on this except on one point. I do not think that the entirety of the Eldar Empire was destroyed by the Warp. While the eye of terror no doubt lies somewhat in the center of the old Eldar Empire, it doesn't cover it's entirety.

I simply believe that the majority of the Empire was destroyed by Slaanesh, not the actual inteference of Warp energy.

The birth of the Eye could be more akin to a whirlpool than an explosion.

Slaanesh roars into being, this results in the destruction/consumption of the vast majority of eldar souls. It is the power of these souls that turns Slaanesh from a spark of gradually smoldering being into a full fledged chaos god. Progress before that had been minimum, reached a critical threshold, then exploded into life. Think of it as a nuclear explosion- small amounts are fairly safe, neutrons bang about but nothing dramatic occurs. Then bring the size of the lump of uranium up. Nothing happens... nothing happens, nothing happens... oops, we've just crossed critical mass and the city is now a mushroom cloud. The slow building was the eldar's decadence, the birth of Slaanesh was the change from something insignificant to a chaos god and the boost from one to the other came from millions of souls being drank at once.

Now we have the Eye. It is formed by this birth. It seems most people assume that it too was an explosion, nothing and then everything being in it at once. What if it was more like a whirlpool? The birth pulls the plug, as it were, and over a relatively short period of time it expands outwards and draws surrounding worlds in as it grows. We know from the eldar codex that some craftworlds that were far enough away from the initial cataclysm to survive are still damned because they have begun to orbit the eye and were slowly drawn in. We know from some of the Imperial fluff that there is a critical point beyond which approaching to the Eye will cause you to be dragged into the chaos storms around it. (So it has to have a gravitational field too.)

This might have given a slight leeway. Some worlds with survivors may not have ended up in the Eye immediately. I can't see them realising exactly what had occurred as fast as the others, since they weren't at ground zero (they didn't see the mushroom cloud, just the aftermath). Perhaps once some had fled into the webway others doubled back via the webway and told the others to jump in, there would need to be a certain number of founding DE and they'd have to be spread across more than one world. But the whirlpool metaphor also means that while one could be near the center of the Eye, the power of it wouldn't be as strong as once it had gotten up to speed. The bigger the whirlpool, the greater force at the center and the deeper it tends to be. That would give them a slightly longer window to escape. And the whole situation seems to have been one of a race against time.

Okay, so let's break this down:

Thor665 wrote:I believe the Slaanesh Eldar soul eating had very little, if anything, to do with distance from any "epicenter" point but that such soul consumption happened due to connection with pleasure cults (supported in ATT due to Vect's survival, also explains how many Craftworld Eldar were still eaten despite not being in the empire anymore and explains why the Exodites suffered less. I do not believe the Craftworld Eldar fully understand this distinction - basically this translates that I opt to let where the fluff in ATT and Codex Eldar clash to believe that ATT is the more accurate rendition).

So we agree on the basic premise but disagree on the extent to which they both matter.

I will accept that there is more physical devastation at the epicenter due to the Warp entering physical reality - but question the level of degrees and in any case feel that every planet with DE on it was part of the Eye of Terror expanse and that 99% of all Eldar deaths at this time came at either their own hands or via the soul consumption and not by Warp entities other then Slaanesh and its proxies.

Agreed (although I don't actually know that there is a difference between physical and spiritual destruction so deep in the Warp).

I believe and fluff supports that Vect was part of a major ceremony by one of the major pleasure cults at their temple (my personal interpretation is he was a special part of the ceremony, but that is not as clearly supported) and I believe ATT supports the belief that pleasure cults only have one temple (my earlier quotes about the Black Heart Kabal's temple and Vect organizing his cult as evidence of this - Orkeo and I clearly are confused about what each other is saying here as he didn't understand my counterpoints but does seem to be advancing the theory that I thought he was which makes me unsure why he didn't get my counterpoints that argue for a single temple building/complex for a given pleasure cult.)

Disagree that this is supported, although there's no real evidence against it. As I said, a "church" can mean both a building and a larger organization.

I have advanced the personal belief that Vect's temple was near the epicenter (it is at the very least pretty clearly in the Eye). I also have pointed out how I believe all DE were part of planets within the primary blast zone and not stragglers from other worlds, because their re-emergence has come as a great mystery to their Craftworld kin. I think it seems more logical to suggest it as a mystery if they came from a point where everyone was supposed to be dead.

Partially disagree. I don't think Vect's planet was near the epicenter but I do think it was in what is now the Eye. I agree that the Craftworlders had reason to believe that everyone in the empire was wiped out but don't see why this must put all planets of the empire deep into the Eye. The borders of the Eye should be dangerous enough, at least to the Eldar during Slaanesh's birth.

I have shown that the fluff says the entire old Eldar Empire was swallowed in the Eye of Terror. I believe this supports my above suppositions about where the DE were in relation to the event.

We agree here.

I have advanced the belief that both Craftworld Eldar and Dark Eldar seek to avoid being eaten painfully by Slaanesh, they accomplish this through either the soul stone defense or by the consuming of souls to help appease Slaanesh. This is fairly well supported in the fluff of Codex Eldar and ATT.

I agree but feel that the Dark Eldar must be unable to protect themselves in the same manner as a Craftworlder to have chosen such a riskier path.

Here’s my take on this, fleshed out into something I hope is more coherent.

As Eldar society at large became increasingly focused on sensual gratification, there emerged several ideas about the nature of the Eldar species. One view, seemingly the dominant view, was that their immense physiological capacity for sensual experience implied a sort of natural destiny of Eldar to transcend mundane concerns in favor of exploring the full vibrancy of physical and psychological stimulation. I am purposely framing this in neutral terms because I believe the moral gloss of “decadence,” for most Eldar at least, came much later on. There were some, however, who balked at this notion earlier on (relative to the birth of Slaanesh). These were the first Eldar to consider the emphasis on sensual gratification to be at best an inaccurate account of Eldar nature and at worst utter moral depravity (we do not actually know which). It would not be surprising to me if these Eldar found infatuation with sculpture or painting to be just as objectionable as the notorious pleasure cults that Vect talks about in “A Torturer’s Tale.” This would be because the immorality, in their perspective, would not arise from the particular act itself (whether sculpting or torture) but rather in the idea that the purpose of Eldar life is sensual gratification. What “traditionalist” (to use Vect’s word) account of Eldar nature they offered to rebut the dominant view is unknown. What we do know is that these objectors fled to the furthest reaches of the Eldar Empire and so became the Exodites.

Unlike the Exodites, the group that would become the Craftworld Eldar accepted the notion that Eldar nature demands the deep exploration of sensual gratification. What distinguished them from the rest of Eldar society was their division of sensual gratification into categories of commendable pursuits and vile ones. The perfection of art, sport, and fighting were thought of as noble while others (“torture” is the readiest example although it is itself obviously a morally generalizing term) were thought of as wicked. This moral categorization of experiences seems to have originated in the apprehension among a sizeable minority of Eldar that their culture was in decline, which anxiety was in turn stimulated by what Vect calls visions of some impending racial doom. These Eldar foreswore what they considered to be the wild and obsessive pursuit of experience—culminating in notion of the “Eldar Path”—but not the basic assumption that this pursuit, although needing to be tempered by severe discipline, was inherent to the character or nature of the Eldar species. It bears reiterating that these Eldar did not come around to the view of the Exodites but rather remained firmly within the scope of that account of Eldar nature that the Exodites must have rejected. Again, what distinguishes Craftworlders from the majority of pre-Fall Eldar was their insistence than some types or experiences or, more likely, some manners of pursuing experiences were depraved and were leading the Eldar Empire and/or race into crisis.

That leaves the “rest” of the Eldar or, more specifically, what must have been the overwhelming majority of all living Eldar. Were these all “Dark Eldar”? To my mind, the answer is obviously not. This group was made up of those who simply dismissed or were otherwise indifferent toward both the Exodite view of Eldar nature and the moral categorizations of experience worked out by the Craftworlders. I am sure that someone will raise the objection that the fluff always refers to this majority as decadent. Well, of course it does! From the Craftworld perspective, this way of life was degenerate and, in their eyes, the birth of Slaanesh proves that point. But let us keep in mind that Slaanesh is the product of all sorts of sensuality—that is, not merely what we are used to thinking of as immoral. As the daemonette said “Hope, love, hate. All are but desire by other names.” In other words, the Craftworld account of pre-Fall Eldar society is nothing but ex post facto rationalization undertaken in the terms of their own rigid moral perspective. Similarly, Vect’s description of pre-Fall Eldar society is also colored by his own perspective on Eldar nature. And do not forget that his perspective is also an ex post facto rationalization even despite his (alleged) great age. In his view, sculpting and painting are not the epitome of experience. Murder and torture alone reach into the most exquisite levels of pleasure. Only by inflicting grievous harm on others does Vect think an Eldar fulfills its nature. But his view is not privileged over the Exodites or Craftworlders simply because he is old and powerful or because there is a whole city of like-minded Eldar.

In any case, these various viewpoints “hardened,” as it were, over the long ages that have passed since the flight of the Exodites, the “repentance” of the Craftworlders, and the birth of Slaanesh. They became more than simple perspectives and are now complex cultures. The complexity of each, which makes human culture seem crudely basic or even non-existent by comparison, make them mutually impenetrable. I do not think that there is any possibility of an Exodite fully understanding Craftworlders, or vice versa, much less a Craftworlder assimilating into Commorragh. A Craftworlder may become an outcast but he will never be free of the worldview of the Eldar Path. That way of thinking is utterly hardwired into him. At the same time, that worldview is utterly alien to a Dark Eldar. I think this may help to explain why Dark Eldar do not use Spirit Stones. As someone has already hinted at, they find the notion that one would restrain oneself in any fashion, including the ultimate desire to integrate into a World Spirit or Infinity Circuit, to be not merely distasteful but totally incomprehensible. A Craftworlder may ultimately reject this goal but he will never not understand why others of his kind accept it. A Dark Eldar, by contrast, would see the whole concept as counter-intuitive and senseless. So even if a Craftworlder threw away his Waystone and started dressing in hooks and leather, he still would never be a Dark Eldar.

Manchu wrote:
In any case, these various viewpoints “hardened,” as it were, over the long ages that have passed since the flight of the Exodites, the “repentance” of the Craftworlders, and the birth of Slaanesh. They became more than simple perspectives and are now complex cultures. The complexity of each, which makes human culture seem crudely basic or even non-existent by comparison, make them mutually impenetrable. I do not think that there is any possibility of an Exodite fully understanding Craftworlders, or vice versa, much less a Craftworlder assimilating into Commorragh. A Craftworlder may become an outcast but he will never be free of the worldview of the Eldar Path. That way of thinking is utterly hardwired into him. At the same time, that worldview is utterly alien to a Dark Eldar. I think this may help to explain why Dark Eldar do not use Spirit Stones. As someone has already hinted at, they find the notion that one would restrain oneself in any fashion, including the ultimate desire to integrate into a World Spirit or Infinity Circuit, to be not merely distasteful but totally incomprehensible. A Craftworlder may ultimately reject this goal but he will never not understand why others of his kind accept it. A Dark Eldar, by contrast, would see the whole concept as counter-intuitive and senseless. So even if a Craftworlder threw away his Waystone and started dressing in hooks and leather, he still would never be a Dark Eldar.

How did you make that step?
While they obviously do not approve, why do you believe that the DE do not understand what the Craftworlders do?
They are not alien cultures, at best they would be called cousins.
Harlequins are accepted easily enough and are part of both cultures.

It seems far more likely that the Dark Eldar simply view the way of the Path as inferior to preying on souls. And who's to say that a few craftworlders wouldn't agree?

What I'm trying to say is, why do you think the two are incapable of understanding the choices of the other race? (regardless of approval)

Hmmmph, what a heated debate.

I, personally, believe that any eldar can be corrupted to the path of the Dark Eldar. After all, the Dark Eldar were.

How exactly is it "far more likely" to be merely a matter of approval?

Let's use an example. Think of one of these rain forest tribes who regularly ate the flesh of their enemies that they had killed in battle. For them, such a thing was entirely normal and not at all troubling. Now, if I were to take off all my clothes, run off into the jungle, and start living with these people would I become one of them? The answer, unless you are being totally insincere, is no. I may learn to speak their language fluently, master their customs, and in other ways become more or less indistinguishable from them BUT as soon as it came time to serve up the latest meal of human being my true identity as an outsider would resurface--at least inside of myself. For I may dig right in and even grin yet pricking at my conscience would be that voice, instilled by my upbringing in the modern Western world, insisting that eating another human being is savagery and indeed an abominable crime against nature. (Should you ask me to believe that this discomfort would eventually go away, I should ask you to reconsider whether you think there is anything that really makes you who you are and if you say no I see no point discussing any matter further with you.) In this example, we see how culture is not so easy to escape as one might imagine or desire. As another example, do you think that people choose to be racist? Many people are entirely aware that it is not right to judge people on the basis of skin tone and yet do it all the same even when they consciously try not to. There is no cultural on/off switch inside of the human person. Neither is there a dimmer switch with which we may at will though gradually adjust our cultural orientation.

If we take the fluff seriously, the range and depth of human emotional experience is next to insignificant compared to that of the Eldar. Imagine how such passion is reflected in culture and how deeply one capable of such passion would participate in that culture. Even for humans, this is the most significant factor regarding one's identity (hence my parenthetical above) so it stands to reason that it is infinitely more important to the Eldar. Further, the separation of Exodite, Craftworlder, and Dark Eldar occurred at a moment of extraordinary significance, a moment which became definitive of each people. A moment, in other words, which totally and indelibly reshaped the culture of each. It seems most likely to me that there is no going back at this point. The three branches of the Eldar family cannot reunite. Their boundaries are no longer permeable. It is no longer merely matter of different values or lifestyles; rather, it is now a matter of being alien one to another in a similar if lesser (and certainly not biological) manner as humans are to Tau. They do not comprehend one another's motives or methods--even if they may claim as much. They are no longer able to because their common frame of reference, pre-fall Eldar culture, is totally lost even in their memories, where it has been replaced by a biased nostalgia or judgmental revulsion or combination of both.

I will say it again: Eldar do not "fall" to Chaos like humans do. A Space Marine who falls to Chaos is most certainly a Chaos Space Marine whether or not he or his chapter was around when Horus betrayed the Emperor. The only qualification for being a Chaos Space Marine is falling to Chaos. There are much steeper, unattainable outside of chance at birth qualification for being a Dark Eldar. As I said to Ketara, the "dark" doesn't simply mean "bad."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

alexwars1 wrote:I, personally, believe that any eldar can be corrupted to the path of the Dark Eldar. After all, the Dark Eldar were.

The Dark Eldar were never Craftworld Eldar. You're going to have to think harder about what the word "corrupted" means in this case.

I understand what you're saying, but personally I think the 'savage tribe' was a poor analogy. Like you said Eldar experience feelings at a much greater level than humans, and many find the path quite restrictive, as they are forbidden from many things that they would find pleasurable. To a younger, rasher Eldar living 'The Path' it may appear that perhaps the DE (adventerous rouges that they are) have the right idea after all.

If you talk like a Dark Eldar, eat like a Dark Eldar, torture like a Dark Eldar then you are, for all intents and purposes a Dark Eldar. The only difference between Craftworld Eldar and Dark Eldar is that the Craftworld Eldar walk 'The Path'. In fact, I'm not even sure where you get the idea that Exodites are so different. They seem more like the 'Amish Villages' of the Eldar. Are you saying that someone who has experience western technology and ideas is incapable of joining an Amish Village?

You are saying that it is physically impossible, how so? What difference renders the two so incompatable other than their difference in culture? Keep in mind that these are not two different races, not at all.

Manchu, that savage analogy was actually quite a good one I thought. Whilst you and I still disagree on the prefix of dark, I can fully understand where you're coming from, and agree with you on the whole cultural roots thing.

Emperor, agreeing with Manchu's point here doesn't invalidate the previous point I made. Let me put it like this.

We think a Dark Eldar is defined by how he acts and where he lives, yes? So if he lives in Commorragh, and eats souls, he's a Dark Eldar.

However, a Craftworld born Eldar, whilst he might live in Commorragh, and eat souls, he's always going to have a nagging feeling he shouldn't be doing this. This doesn't stop him being a Dark Eldar in our eyes, but it is a certain mental state that a Commorragh born Dark Eldar would never have had. So whilst they're both Dark Eldar , one born in Iyanden has subtle mental differences to one born in a Dark Eldar city in the Webway.

It would depend on at what age the craftworld eldar left for or was abducted to commoragh.
Being born in place A doesnt automatically mean you will get nagging feeling of wrongness if you live in place B with its different customs. It all depends on age and if you had time to properly adapt to your place of birth or not.

Also some persons feel wrong, as if they never really belong, even if that means they never left the place of their birth. Then they travel around and settle down in place B where they feel like they finally belong to and is right for them.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

I have advanced the personal belief that Vect's temple was near the epicenter (it is at the very least pretty clearly in the Eye). I also have pointed out how I believe all DE were part of planets within the primary blast zone and not stragglers from other worlds, because their re-emergence has come as a great mystery to their Craftworld kin. I think it seems more logical to suggest it as a mystery if they came from a point where everyone was supposed to be dead.

Partially disagree. I don't think Vect's planet was near the epicenter but I do think it was in what is now the Eye. I agree that the Craftworlders had reason to believe that everyone in the empire was wiped out but don't see why this must put all planets of the empire deep into the Eye. The borders of the Eye should be dangerous enough, at least to the Eldar during Slaanesh's birth.

I have shown that the fluff says the entire old Eldar Empire was swallowed in the Eye of Terror. I believe this supports my above suppositions about where the DE were in relation to the event.

We agree here.

So the Empire was swallowed but you advance the belief of some planets not being as "deep" in the Warp? My understanding of the Warp says there are basically three states - you are in the Warp, not in the Warp or you are on the periphery edge where some Warp bleeds out and you get slight Warp interference/rifts (which really means you're not in the Warp as far as I can tell, you're just in an area it's bleeding through heavier. Could you expound a bit on the 'depth' of the Warp thing and/or where I could read more about it?

I have advanced the belief that both Craftworld Eldar and Dark Eldar seek to avoid being eaten painfully by Slaanesh, they accomplish this through either the soul stone defense or by the consuming of souls to help appease Slaanesh. This is fairly well supported in the fluff of Codex Eldar and ATT.

I agree but feel that the Dark Eldar must be unable to protect themselves in the same manner as a Craftworlder to have chosen such a riskier path.

In both those views, while the one joining may never feel like they truly belong, if they have offspring which are raised in that culture, said offspring will. I do think that that is slightly more likely, that some corsairs end up in close proximaty but not [i]quite[i] embracing all their practises (through the afforementioned sense of 'wrong'- if they've lived all their lives with spiritstones, they probably don't think of them very much anymore, and are unlikely to just discard them for the sake of discarding them. Discarding them if it serve a purpose, perhaps, but soulstones and consuming souls strikes me as one of the most likely 'cultural fractures', as Manchu describes. I don't feel that the Path would, because many discard the Path. So that part of the culture seems easier to part with).

However, offspring are not going to have soulstones of their own, and not have any means of getting them. I doubt a corsair ship in such a position is going to be able to buddy up to a craftworld, and neither DE nor harlequins use them. So they'll be fine to start with, and have enough contact with a culture to think that while drinking souls is a bit odd and maybe a touch off, they won't have the same deep seated aversion. And when they start to feel the pull of the Thirst on them, their view is going to start changing.

A random, possibly not very good example: when I've taken international and city students out bush (I live in West Australia) they wonder why I'm wearing long sleeves and pants when it is incredibly hot outside. They think I'm stupid, I should be wearing shorts. We start going through the bush itself, they're getting cuts and scratches from the plants and bitten by insects and some of that stuff is a mild skin irritant. They end up feeling quite sorry for themselves. I'm fine. After a few days, they decide that I had the right idea after all.

Thor665 wrote:
So the Empire was swallowed but you advance the belief of some planets not being as "deep" in the Warp? My understanding of the Warp says there are basically three states - you are in the Warp, not in the Warp or you are on the periphery edge where some Warp bleeds out and you get slight Warp interference/rifts (which really means you're not in the Warp as far as I can tell, you're just in an area it's bleeding through heavier. Could you expound a bit on the 'depth' of the Warp thing and/or where I could read more about it?

I was just referring to "deep in the Warp" as meaning more warp overtaking the material than around it. Basically a matter of degrees, where the nearer you go into the Eye the "purer" the warp is, and the less reality matters. So to use your example, most of the Eye is the warp bleeding into and overlapping with the material world, but the level of bleeding is at different levels depending on how far in you go.

(I vaguely recall "deep warp" being mentioned in some of the fluff for Space Hulks, but that's not was I was meaning to talk about.)

The path may be riskier but it is also less close minded, allows more personal freedom, and doesn't dictate a dulling of the senses and an avoidance of the basic principle of pleasure and experience. I see no reason why risk need be the only measuring block (and as proven by capture of spirit stones on the battlefield - I question how much less risky that solution is).

But even if the path is being ignored, why ignore the spirit stones?

I don't know how having your spirit stone be captured can be worse than dying without one.

I believe they ignore the spirit stones because they don't believe using the spirit stones represents living life.

Morgrim wrote:
A random, possibly not very good example: when I've taken international and city students out bush (I live in West Australia) they wonder why I'm wearing long sleeves and pants when it is incredibly hot outside. They think I'm stupid, I should be wearing shorts. We start going through the bush itself, they're getting cuts and scratches from the plants and bitten by insects and some of that stuff is a mild skin irritant. They end up feeling quite sorry for themselves. I'm fine. After a few days, they decide that I had the right idea after all.

That's actually quite a good analogy. And has in fact happened to me.

So you and I are agreed that the offspring of a corsair could become fully integrated in DE soceity?

I still believe that, for all intents and purposes, the corsiar his/herself could become a DE, but on this point I agree with you, Morgrim.

Let me take a moment to clarify that a Craftworld Eldar infant if taken to Commorragh before learning anything at all about the Path of the Eldar and raised there would be a Dark Eldar. It's frustrating that I can't seem to shake you of this genetics idea, EF. Unlike Orkeo, I don't think that DE are bio-spiritually different than Craftworlders. Also your criticism of my earlier analogy is faulty. Following the Path is not the only difference between the Craftworlders and the DE. Rather, that is the only difference between well-adjusted Craftworlders and Outcasts. (DE =/= Outcasts.) The difference between Craftworlders and DE, as I have already outlined more comprehensively above, are their cultural frames of reference.

Manchu wrote:Let me take a moment to clarify that a Craftworld Eldar infant if taken to Commorragh before learning anything at all about the Path of the Eldar and raised there would be a Dark Eldar. It's frustrating that I can't seem to shake you of this genetics idea, EF. Unlike Orkeo, I don't think that DE are bio-spiritually different than Craftworlders. Also your criticism of my earlier analogy is faulty. Following the Path is not the only difference between the Craftworlders and the DE. Rather, that is the only difference between well-adjusted Craftworlders and Outcasts. (DE =/= Outcasts.) The difference between Craftworlders and DE, as I have already outlined more comprehensively above, are their cultural frames of reference.

I'm sorry, I'm getting confused. I'll go back and read your posts about this.


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Manchu wrote:

Ketara wrote:You still have yet to produce a single piece of substantive evidence with which to defend your claims here Manchu, which it must be said, is most unlike you.

From my perspective, neither have you. Again, it seems to me that you think the prefix "Dark" has the same meaning as the prefix "Chaos." Let me again give the example of the Craftworld Eldar who decides to rough it with the Exodites. No matter what he does, he will never be an Exodite. See Eldar Codex, pg 11: "Some Eldar leave for the distant Exodite worlds, living for many years amongst the Exodites, though they are rarely ever truly accepted by their new hosts." Even in this case, the extremely rare "acceptance" is not the same thing as becoming an Exodite. The term Exodite is a something like what we lawyers call a "closed class." It is a group that cannot be joined. Everyone who was ever or will ever be an Exodite is already determined by lineage.

I know, it's a few pages back, but your own qoute defeats your logic. It says that it is RARE that Craftworld Eldar is truly accepted by Exodites, but it DOES happen.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I'm sorry, I'm getting confused. I'll go back and read your posts about this.

You know, all former posts aside, is there actually even an official instance of Chaos Eldar? I've heard rumors but never seen proof. My point is that Dark Eldar =/= Chaos Eldar. Dark Eldar do not worship Slaanesh or any other Chaos god/Warp entity/aspect of Chaos.

Also, I am somewhat confused about the timeline of the Fall with respect to the Galaxy at large. The Eldar Codex makes it sound as if the Stellar Exodus of man happened before the birth of Slaanesh during or at the end of the Age of Strife and that the calming of the Warp after her/his birth is what allowed mankind to venture back into the void during the Great Crusade.


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Emperors Faithful wrote:I know, it's a few pages back, but your own qoute defeats your logic. It says that it is RARE that Craftworld Eldar is truly accepted by Exodites, but it DOES happen.

Please reconsider my cannibal tribe analogy. I can be accepted (or "truly accepted," whatever) by the tribesmen--i.e., they let me live with them and teach me their language and customs--and still not be one of them for the reasons I have already given.

It appears that the birth of Slaanesh 'exhausted' the warp storms surrounding Terra. That is all it says. Whether this heralds the start of the Great Crusade or if it just means that Humanity was able spread beyond stars isn't quite clarified.

Actually, it is clarified:

"Ten thousand years before the Fall, the Warp was riven with storm and tempest. This made it almost impossible for Human spacecraft to travel between the stars. With the birth of the Great Enemy the Warp was temporarily calmed, its rage all but spent. A new equilibrium was readhed as Slaanesh joined the ranks of the Chaos gods. With the Warp storms around ancient Terra dispersed, Human worlds throughout the galaxy were brought into contact once more. During the Great Crusade that followed, the Emperor brought Humanity together and forged the Imperium of Man." (Codex: Edlar, pg 5, my emphases)

So, the first human star empire seems to have predated the zenith of Eldar society. Given the way each is talked about in terms of size and power (the first Human star empire was bigger than the Imperium of Man, which is still being reclaimed but the Eldar supposedly were the undisputed masters of everything), it's difficult to imagine them being able to coexist. Maybe the old empire was less . . . intolerant?

Don't want to get too off-topic here. What I am getting at is that the "degeneration" of Eldar culture into obsession with sensual and experiential gratification and the ensuing division of the Eldar people into three irreconcilable branches seems to be a more recent event than most people think.

Correction: I wasn't paying ATTENTION when it was clarified.

The Eldar Empire was powerful, unstoppable one might say. But I think it's a safe bet to say that they were fairly reclusive. Humans obviously weren't a threat, and for the most part I don't think that they bothered with each other.

Emperors faithful, as I said a page back, what he's saying makes sense. It doesn't invalidate what we were saying earlier in any way, we still recognise a depraved soul eating eldar that lives in Commorragh as a Dark Eldar, it's just that he has subtle mental differences from his upbringing that a Commorragh raised Dark Eldar would not have.

That's an interesting point you've raised there Manchu with regards to the chronology. The way that's phrased, the Fall occurred after mankind had spread to the stars. Not only that, apparantly mankind spread to the stars ten thousand years beforehand!

I sense a plothole here, as that makes little sense.

1) Yeah, I realise that now, but I thought he was saying that these beliefs were ingrained into every Craftworld Eldar since birth. I didn't realise he meant Eldar who had grown used to the path.

2) The Eldar Empire was relatively small, right? Powerful, but reclusive.

No, the Eldar Empire spanned "hundreds of paradise worlds seeded across the stars." They apparently "held dominion over a large portion of the galaxy." (C:E pg 4)

But it was never claimed to be bigger than humanities. (If you could call pre-fall humans an Empire.)

Hundreds, compared to thousands or millions, is not that much all considered.

A large portion of the galaxy? Comparably that could mean as small as a sector in Imperial terms. Is not the eye of terror where the Eldar empire once was?

Dark Eldar= Cooler than Eldar, Neglected more than Eldar.

Someone needs to get GW to sort all of this out once and for all...

@Orkeo: Now you understand why there's been no new DE codex--they're still dangerous rules-wise and the fluff is too complicated.

@EF: I don't think the Eldar Empire was as small as an Imperial Sector. The core of it--the Eldar homeworlds or "Crone Worlds"--is what is not the Eye of Terror. The Exodite Worlds and Maiden Worlds seem to be all over.

EDIT: Wrong Thread. I think.


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Manchu wrote:
@EF: I don't think the Eldar Empire was as small as an Imperial Sector. The core of it--the Eldar homeworlds or "Crone Worlds"--is what is not the Eye of Terror. The Exodite Worlds and Maiden Worlds seem to be all over.

But these were (mostly) founded by self-exiled Eldar hoping to get as far away from the old Eldar Empire as possible.

The 'core' as you put it, was almost certainly the old Empire, and it seems that most, if not all of it was caught in the original birth of Slaanesh.

My geography isn't very good, but is the Eye of Terra in roughly the same quadrant of the galaxy as Terra? If they're quite far apart, then each empire could have spread out quite a lot before encountering each other. Humans could also have been shunted off onto the less desirable worlds while the eldar claimed the cushy, pleasure planets.

Also, the massive warpstorms prevented widespread warp travel. I'm not sure they would have stopped short, very well known hops, only made them more dangerous. So over that 10k period, the lost planets may still have been able to continue minimal colonization of nearby worlds. Once the warpstorms faded, this rate of colonization would have increased. It took a while to get the Crusade in motion and then there was a lot of ground to cover, the expansion is likely to have continued ahead of the Crusade front itself.


There are still some massive lore plot holes still, of course.

Eye of Terror. Not Terra. (Unless I just got inverse trolled )

They are close, but not THAT close.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Eye of Terror. Not Terra. (Unless I just got inverse trolled )

They are close, but not THAT close.

No, no trolling. Just me being an idiot. And apparently a heretic.

Normally, I wouldn't care (I don't support Imperials!) but my friend just pointed out your response to me. My friend that owns a commissar costume. With a boltpistol. *gulp*

So, Morgrim, you're suggesting that the Eldar could have deliberately hidden themselves from humanity's first star empire? I'm having trouble imagining this. Remember, the Stellar Exodus happened at a time of unparalleled technological development (for humans) and that it resulted in a galactic presence more powerful than the current Imperium of Man, which itself dominates the galaxy. Granted who (besides Tyranids) can really contend with humanity by the 41st millennium?

well why sholdn't they

Manchu wrote:the Stellar Exodus happened at a time of unparalleled technological development (for humans)

(em)

That said - most timelines I've read on the Age of Technology indicate contact with alien races including the Eldar - where are we getting the idea they did not encounter the Eldar from? Isn't it listed in Imperium records for the early M20s that they had wars with Eldar and Orks? I do believe the Eldar Empire was always on the smaller side, even at its height (they speak of hundreds, not millions of worlds).

They also speak of "across the stars" and "a large portion of the galaxy," not an Imperial Sector. Even if the Eldar Empire was only as large as a Segmentum, it would have overlapped with the first human domain (the Imperium of Man has not conquered significant amounts of new territory relative to the reclamation its old holdings). The possibilites are therefore:

(1) war (which humanity probably could not have won--maybe explaining, when coupled with Warpstorms, the fall of that original empire)

(2) peace (which would explain why Imperial Humanity is totally intolerant of xenos life)

(3) ignorance (which seems least likely to me)

I'm going with option 1, as I feel near 100% certain I have read fluff pertaining to a Eldar/Human war during the original expansion.

I don't see how across the stars and hundreds of worlds is really mutually exclusive. (though overall I blame the writers not fact checking prior material). Due to GW's penchant for reworking the fluff continuity I submit that as far as the question goes it behooves us to consider more recent material to be more likely accurate then older fluff.

They're not mutually exclusive. I think that it points to a widespread if not terribly dense Empire, is all. The quotes I've used are all from the current Eldar Codex.

It could have been a case of the eldar only attacking if humans set foot on 'their' worlds and (for the most part) not bothering with the mon'keigh when they weren't. Out of sight, out of mind, except for when they wanted a few to play with. After all, it wasn't as if these gnats could harm them.

On the human's side, picking a fight with a race that could wipe the floor with your petty exploration fleets is frequently seen by sensible people as a Bad Idea. Given that the choices were leave them alone or die, I can see fighting being confined to minor skirmishes. One side doesn't think the other a threat, the other biding their time until they're strong enough to win.

Wasn't the Emperor around in those days? I wonder what he was up to.

Consolidating mental power and learning kung-fu. Yeah, he was around - born (quick wiki check) 8,000 BC - I knew that information off the top of my head and am to be respected for it.

He just sat around a lot contemplating his navel until his big reveal in the 29th.

Getting back on topic... I don't recall seeing anyone mention Ahra, the Fallen Phoenix except in passing for the last 4-5 pages. If it's not possible for a Craftworld Eldar to become a Dark Eldar, how do you explain his fall to the dark powers.

As I recall, he succumbed to the powers of Chaos and was embraced (as anyone can be) by the dark kin of Cormorragh where he established his own temples. If I've remembered incorrectly, please forgive my inability to quote text - I'm at work and haven't my books on hand.

If this is the case, a Craftworld Eldar that has reached the pinnacle of the path system, becoming a Phoenix Lord - the everliving incarnation of an aspect of the Eldar Path to which they are trapped for eternity - learned to walk a different path. If it could happen to a Phoenix Lord, could it not happen to Joeldrad the craftworld plumber?

If he succumbed to the power of chaos, why would the dark eldar want anything to do with him? They're not chaos worshippers, and I doubt they'd enjoy the idea of someone setting up a network of cults in Commorragh.

So...what DID happen to him then?
Did he succumb to Chaos? Or just to his darker desires? (In some senses a striking scorpion sounds a bit like a mandrake.)

I'd forgotten about Arhra.

There are some who claim he is the founder of the Incubi. However everything I've ever read suggests he fell to Chaos, and Slaanesh in particular. Falling to Chaos has nothing to do with falling into the DE lifestyle - and as Ketara noted, a Slaanesh worshipper would last all of about three seconds in Commorragh.

My personal feelings on the matter is that Arhra fell to Chaos (supported by fluff) and that Incubi and other DE roles perhaps have roots in the same stories, legends, and fables the Aspect Warriors draw inspiration from.

Well, ehat have you read? (Honest question, I can't find much fluff abouth him)

I've only heard him referenced in the Eldar Codex as the 'Fallen Phoenix Lord'. I'm not sure that this constitutes 'Chaos' necessarily.

Look at Codex Eldar 4th Edition under the Pheonix Lords - in particular the Striking Scorpions. Arhra is explicitly stated to burn with the dark light of Chaos.

In previous fluff (Codex Eldar 3e and the DE Codex) there were ample clues dropped that he had fallen and waged war against his brethren - and that he was the Dark Father who had founded the Incubi. However with the 4e Eldar fluff we presume that either GW intentionally retconned this situation - or that their writers are idiots (not mutually exclusive, of course)

In any case, in current fluff, with a fall to Chaos, the only way Arhra founded the Incubi would be if at some point on his descent, but prior to going Chaos-y, he joined with the DE for a time, and then when he went over to Chaos they too turned on him.

The last seems plausible. Leave the craftworld, fall in with a bad crowd, all of you share knowledge and experiences, they get some rather good ideas from you because you are the best of the Striking Scorpions. He then takes some of it far too far, thinks that as the DE sort of lifestyle led to the birth of Slaanesh that means that eldar formed Slaanesh and are indebted to Slaanesh and the Thirst is an attempt to draw them back to the one god that perfectly embodies everything that they once were. He runs off to join chaos. His disgusted followers go home and make their living by being the one group that don't back stab in a culture of backstabber's, and thus being the only ones that are actually trusted. Calling the boss the Dark Father is a reflection of how the first were taught by the master.



It's interesting how one can come up with ideas one had never thought of while writing up a tangentially related post. I'd never thought of the 'we should worship Slaanesh for we embody and are embodied by Slaanesh and the Thirst is the call to beckon us home' angle before now. Note, I'm not saying that that is the case, but I can see how a group or cult of eldar - dark, craftworld, or exoite - could think that. Yes, I know some of those cultures are more likely to than others, but you get nut jobs in every society. It does make more sense than killing yourself to hitch a ride on a spaceship hiding behind a comet, at least. I think I need to ponder more on that one.

The Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar DO hate each other. So what if they are the same species? The Dark Eldar, in their selfishness, chose the path of darkness for their survival. The Craftworld Eldar put more restrictions on regular Eldar Society.

Both wanted to save their skins. Both had different solutions. However, it seems that the Craftworld Eldar are appalled by the Dark Eldar's depravity, whilst the Dark Eldar view their self-righteous cousins with the typical Spehs Elf Disdain.

If an Eldar wanted to become a Dark Eldar, he/she would have left the craftworld with the DE those many years ago. Still, I think it could be plausible, if they threw off every last shackle. Merely showing up with a tribute to Commoragh will result in a lot of dead Eldar, and some quite happy Dark Eldar.

What if Arhra became a Khorne worshipper instead? Wouldn't that be a twist!?

Manchu wrote:

alexwars1 wrote:I, personally, believe that any eldar can be corrupted to the path of the Dark Eldar. After all, the Dark Eldar were.

The Dark Eldar were never Craftworld Eldar. You're going to have to think harder about what the word "corrupted" means in this case.

Ah, sorry, allow me to reiterate. The Dark Eldar, as Eldar, became the creatures that they are today, and therefore, Craftworld Eldar, as Eldar, could also become like what the Dark Eldar are today.

I think Manchu is referring to the fact that as the Eldar ran away on the Craftworlds, the Dark Eldar were already high-tailing it to Commoragh.

No, the Craftworlds fled the eldar Empire before the fall. They were trying to escape a corrupt, anarchic society, I doubt that anyone saw the Fall in the form that it would take.

The DE fled into Commoragh AFTER the worst had happened.

Right, EF. DE are the Eldar who recklessly and obsessively pursued sensual gratification, somehow survived at or near the epicenter of Slaanesh's birth, and then founded Commorragh where they continue to recklessly and obsessively pursue such gratification--only now this pursuit almost exclusively confined to murder, torture, etc. Meanwhile, Craftworld Eldar are those who once recklessly indulged, repented of it, and then created a culture based around an extremely disciplined gratification. My point is that the mere fact that they are both Eldar doesn't really point to the conclusion that Craftworlders could become Dark Eldar, as alexwars1 suggests. Dark Eldar never created or even saw purpose for something like the Eldar Path whereas this is the core element of Craftworld culture. In other words, the Eldar that "fell" (in terms of the Craftworld point of view) were everyone who (a) wasn't an Exodite or (b) a Craftworlder. And that group were NOT Dark Eldar, at least not (in the case of those that survived the Fall) at first.

But the Eldar Codex itself states that many youthful Eldar stray or fall from the path anyway.

The Path is the definitive feature for all Craftworld Eldar. Some remain on it. Some stray from it But for Dark Eldar, it does not exist at all. There is neither such a thing to follow or from which to fall away.

How does that change anything? If a Craftworlder rejects the path entirely and joins wholeheartedly in the soul-eating fest how does this stop him becoming a Dark Eldar?

Hang on, didn't we have this exact argument with the exact same points 3 pages ago?

It IS the same thread right?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/269713.page#1191626

Same thread, back a few pages, rather well thought out arguments from you and Manchu. *snickers* Just wondering if this was going to be new ground or repetition? *attempts to look innocent and angelic. Fails on both counts*

Manchu is arguing that he can not suddenly put on a beret, drink hot chocolate from a bowl (which is awesome) eat a bagette and 'Go French'. I'm saying that, if a youthful American disregards his home and moves to France, getting citizenship etc and immersing himself in the French culture, then he is, for all intnets and purposes, French. Regardless of what some of the 'pure' Frenchies may think.

Apparently to Manchu, the French always have and always will be, French. So apparently immigrants, and thier descendants will never be French. Which honestly doesn't make sense to me.


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Also, Morgrim, just noticed that your flag is Aussie (yay). Whereabouts? Not a Tazzie are you?

*bangs head on desk*

Me and Manchu had this out already. It all comes to down to the significance you attach to the prefix 'dark'. Manchu interprets it a different way to me, but as there's no definitive evidence either way, both theories hold water whether you agree with them or not.

How about this for a slightly different aspect of the same question;

@Manchu - let us say a young Dark Eldar was born (let us call him Drizzit for no apparent reason) and that he in mind and soul rejected the basic tenents of Dark Eldar culture. Since a young Warrior doesn't get to consume souls he has not partaken of that foul practice and on his very first training raid he escapes.

After a long and arduous journey he appears before some Craftworlders (perhaps Rangers, or maybe he falls in with some Corsairs - yeah that makes more sense) after a long journey he meets up with some Corsairs, whose wild personalities are closer to his own but who are able to teach him about the option of discipline and soul stones. When his best friend amongst the corsairs decides to return to his/her Craftworld (s)he brings young Drizzt along and together they petition for his right to walk the Path of Asurman and to have a soul stone.

Could he then walk the path in your mind?

(I know this is directed at Manchu, but I'm bored. )

I think so. It would depend on whether the Craftworld accepted him or not. I think it's entirely possible, and if this is true, then it's also possible for the exact opposite to happen.

In fact, this whole thing sounds like the making of a fantastic novel.

Emperors Faithful wrote:In fact, this whole thing sounds like the making of a fantastic novel.

I foresee a series. After he teams up with a Squat, the Squat's adopted human daughter, a Ratling with a hypnotic gem of some sort, and a Space Wolf they will go on a wild spread of adventures.

Hmmm, yes. There would be a few other characters I suppose. Such as a transvestite Dark Angel, and possibly a pyromanic Sister of Battle or two. And they find a data-slate containing the works of C.S. Goto's Multilasers stories. And they would all unite to journey to the Eye of Terror to cast it back into the terrible void from whence it came.

The first one would be called 'The Fellowship of the Data-Slate'.
The second part of the series would be called 'The Two Fortress Planets'.
And the last one would be called, 'The Returns of the Emperor'.

I am skeptical that one not raised within Craftworld society would ever have the discipline requisite to following the Path, given that so many who are even raised in that society cannot must the resolve to do so.

But if seen as an alternative to the soul-sucking, backstabbing ways of Commoragh (if one saw it truly distasteful) I suppose some may be willing to try it.

Do the exarchs follow the path? I thought they had lost themselves completely in the joys of war and lived only for that?

Thinking DE society is distasteful is not enough to follow the Path. I'm only willing to consider that a DE might try to do so because it's part of Thor's hypothetical, which I think is totally unlikely. Going back to the cannibal example, one of those tribesmen would not suddenly feel that eating people was wrong. Similarly, a DE would not suddenly think that the DE lifestyle was wrong. I know Thor tried to create a transitory "corsair stage" to make this more plausible (perhaps under the mistaken impression that Eldar pirates are some sort of middle ground between Craftworld Eldar and DE when in fact they are themselves still very much Craftworld Eldar--just ask Yriel) but I do not find the scenario convincing.

I'm not sure what point you mean to make by bringing up the Exarchs.

Nevermind, I forgot that the War os part of the Path. They just get stuck on it.

Anyway, a more pluasible scenario would be something akin to a DE being abandoned as a child. (Or infant) So then, the DE is not ingrained with the views of your a verage DE.

Yes, I'd go with that, as I've already said in terms of the reverse situation. (I'm assuming you meant "abandoned as a infant and adopted by Craftworlders.")

Manchu wrote:I know Thor tried to create a transitory "corsair stage" to make this more plausible (perhaps under the mistaken impression that Eldar pirates are some sort of middle ground between Craftworld Eldar and DE when in fact they are themselves still very much Craftworld Eldar--just ask Yriel) but I do not find the scenario convincing.

Simply made under the basis it's the only likely scenario where a DE and Craftworlder would talk. Harlequins don't count and I can't think of any other situation where the two philosophies could discuss their attitudes semi-amicably.

They are the closest thing to a middle ground between the two factions though - since it's when Craftworlders most succumb to physical and emotional excess, which is very akin to certain philosophical aspects of the DE.

I will disagree with the statement that a non-craftworlder would lack the discipline to walk the Path. And, not being able to do it for other reasons may be plausible, but I don't think discipline is cultural or that people can't learn it. Someone from a very 'wild' culture (erm... the only example I can think of that fits is hippies...) are capable of switching to a very strictly focused one (like a monk). It is hard, it is likely to be slow, there would be stumbling blocks, but there is nothing stopping it from being none if one has the stubbornness and sheer determination. Granted, that isn't many people.

The younger one is, the easier it is to do a transition of culture, so a young eldar would have an easier time switching, particularly if they were below whatever age counts as adolescence for eldar. And in such a case I'd argue that they wouldn't feel the sense of lingering 'wrongness' an older person would.

I can see a (limited) circumstance of an older eldar being forced to act in the way against their nature, somewhat. I'm not sure craftworlds would execute a wounded relatively young eldar that they tripped over. I could see a stubborn farseer attempting to redeem or enlighten the youngster. Not too sure how well it would work, but being forced into a culture where everyone walks their Path and not really having a way of getting away, I could see them eventually becoming at least a somewhat useful member of society. Either walking a completely non-combat Path (not being trusted with anything dangerous) or else likely ending up an aspect warrior. Still don't think they'd ever be fully accepted by those who knew their history, but craftworlds are too large for everyone to know everyone, and they may be treated like anyone else by those who weren't in the know.

Going the opposite way is easier. DE wouldn't be finding a lost, they'd be enslaving. Torture helps get over the hump and it's a culture that never fully trusts anyone anyway. Such a person could become a sort of higher ranked slave, one that is doing a more practical task instead of lying around screaming or dying. Again, likely to be someone's pet project rather than a common occurrence. History gives an example of slavery functioning like this, in ancient greece the 'lowest' slaves were those in the silver mines or the galley rowers. Then there were those in more visable and skilled roles, leading up to those household slaves that were responcible for managing things and in a rather trusted position. Indeed, some would be in a better situation than the lowest of the freemen. And I'm hoping that rambling made some sense, I get the feeling I'm not conveying the idea very well.

@Emperors Faithful: No, not a tassie. I'm over in WA.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

OT: Seriously? There's life out in Western Australia? Over here on the Eastern Seaboard, the very idea that people actually live in Western Australia is sort of...well an urban myth. Are there many of these over there?

We only get the occasional Ninja Roo over here. However, Drop Bears frequently make thier presence known. Ussually heralded with the untimely death of some unfortunate hitchhiker.

@Morgrim: Eldar (so say the Craftworlders) have a bio-pschological/spiritual predisposition to become obsessive and hedonistic. The commitment to discipline necessary to reign in those urges takes an Eldar's lifespan to hone and must be instilled as an absolute imperative from birth. This is why becoming an Outcast is so perilous but returning to the path remains possible.

Not really. If that was true then how was the path itself founded?

It seems entirely possible that a DE walking the path would be very much like a recovering drug addict or alcholic. Sure there would be withdrawal symptons and teething pains, but it's still very possible.

Unless you believe 'once an alchoholic, always an alchoholic.' sort of thing.

It is possible and even likely that the founders of the Path were exceptional spiritual leaders--something like the Buddha was. They managed to attain "Enlightenment," as it were, without being taught how. This level of spiritual development is of course very rare and strongly discouraged by the culture of Commorragh.

I'm not saying DE converts are a commonplace occurence, but I am saying that the scenario Thor665 presented is entirely pluasible.