Over on warseer there was a wishlisting thread for Grey Knights that got me thinking. GW does not want to do a combined codex for the inquisition. They intend to do a codex that instead more greatly emphasizes the Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle for their respective ordo. This is discussion is based around that concept, what will make that idea of a codex work?

I largely see the design of Grey Knights to be a bit of balancing act. While they are Daemonhunters, on the tabletop they do not play solely against daemons, thus any attempt to build a list solely around that idea will not work. Thus we must step back and look at the nature of daemons and how they function on the table. Grey Knights should excel at fighting daemons but there rules should be wrtten to give them a broader application of their ability and not written so narrowly as to be only applicable to a Chaos Daemon army.

The two things central to daemons are their deep striking and their invulnerable saves. These two mechanics are what Grey Knights should excel at hampering.

Another philosophical note, I believe the concept of Grey Knights has been a bit watered down from the shift from a single "uber-elite" unit to an entire army. I think in general they should gain some of that back. Thus instead of a reduced point price, they should maintian the current point level but with rules that reflect it. There are two components to improving the rules for the core Grey Knight units: first, all bolters and stormbolter be equipped with psy-bolts, ignoring invulnerable saves; second that the basic grey knights squads be given varying degrees os collective psyker powers (similar to the Psyker battle squad of IG, but with a more appropriate list of powers).

With the army list I wanted to try to fill in the the type of units that were needed in a characterful way. This is army list I came up with:

HQ
 Grandmaster
 Master (Brother-Captain)
 Chaplain
 Grey Knight Command Squad
-Amplifies commanders Psychic power
 Inquisitor (fixed high stats)
-Similar to IG command squad
-Henchmen all with the same stats
-Henchmen each provide ability, no stat boost.
-more worth while weapon options

Elite
 Assassins
 Daemonhost
 Death-cult Assassin
 Grey Knight Terminators
-storm bolters equipped with psy-bolts (ignores inv saves).
 Dreadnought
-May take a nemesis force fist
-May take a twinlinked "Heavy" psycannon
-May take a twinlinked "Heavy" Incinerator
-Stormbolter has psy-bolt
-Heavy Flamer replaced with Incinerator Option
 Ironclad Dreadnought
-May take 2 nemesis force fist
-May take a psycannon in place of Meltagun
-Hurricane bolter equipped with psy-bolt (ignores inv saves).
-May take a Heavy Incinerator in place of "Heavy Flamer"
 Venerable Dreadnought
-May take a nemesis force fist
-May take a twinlinked "Heavy" psycannon
-May take a twinlinked "Heavy" Incinerator
-Stormbolter has psy-ammo (ignores inv saves).
-Heavy Flamer replaced with Incinerator Option

Troop
 Grey Knights
-storm bolters equipped with psy-bolts (ignores inv saves).
-may pay 35pts to deep strike
 Shield Bearers (Replace Stormtroopers) (10pts)
- Las-Glaive
--Shooting: R24 S3 AP4 Assault 2, Rending
--Close Combat: +1S Rending
-Combat Shield: 5+ Inv Save
-(0-4) Thermic Lance (10-15pts)
-- Shooting: R12 S8 AP1 (Always receives +2d6 Armor Pen)
-- Close Combat: Power Weapon
 Exorcists Marine Contingent (21pts)
- Standard Marine weapons options
- Bolters have psy-bolts (ignores inv saves).
- Fearless
- Demonic Essence (5+ Inv)
- Demonic Speed (roll 2d6, pick highest, for running)

Fast Attack
 Null Pillar
-Drop Pod
-Scrambles deepstriking within 24”
-Daemons become unstable
-Twin-linked Psycannons
 Grey Knight Cataphract (Jet Bikes)
-Stormbolter on Jet bike (instead of arm)
-Storm bolters equipped with psy-bolts (ignores inv saves).
-(0-2) may be upgraded with psycannons or incinerators
 Valkyrie Vengeance
- 2x Vortex Missiles (additional option)
- Door mounted Psy-cannons

Heavy Support
 Grey Knight Purgation Squad
-Add Heavy Incinerator
-Add heavy psycannon
 Land Raider
 Land Raider Crusader
-Hurricane Bolters fires, psy-bolt (ignores inv saves).
 Land Raider Redeemer
 Hellstorm Cannon (Thunderfire Cannon)
- Large ordnance template
- Range 60
- Ignores Inv Saves


I think some of the upgrade options would be replaced with distinctively Grey Knight ones. Such as Land Raiders being able to take "heavy incinerators" in place of a pintle multimelta.

My concept for the "Null Pillar" is its effectively a drop pod turned reliquary that transports a chunck of material identical to what composes the pillars on Cadia that hold back the eye of terror from spreading.

The Excorcists marines are in there as a fluffier alternative to having the "allied" and inducted marine unit options. The Exocrcists being the science experminent of the Grey Knights would easily be seen along side and at their beckon call.

The Cataphract, are Grey Knight jet bikers. They make for what I think is a fluffy way of giving the Grey Knights a single fast attack choice that takes the places of Bikes, Jump Packs, landspeeders all in one unit.

For the stormtroopers, I looked at the unit and their intended function. As they're written in the IG codex I don't believe they'd make much sense along side an army that fights units who are predominantly invulnerable save without much in the way of 3+ saves. Their point cost is too high at that, making them worthless even as cannon fodder. I thought they should be a bit more specific to the daemonhunter cause. Really they're a bit of a place holder, but get the point across.

I don't believe allied units are appropriate in a list meant to emphasize the Grey Knights. For their list to stand on its own, they need to not be dependent on taking allies to deal with non-daemon armies.

So what do you think?

I think this is, well, waaaaaay OP.

-Shield Bearers; for 10 points you get a 24" assault 2 RENDING weapon, and a rending S4 CCW? Sign me up for six squads, please! Oh, and lets not forget the option for four meltaguns, which also count as power weapons! That's truly ridiculous.

-The fact that every single unit in the army ignores invulnerable saves as standard means that Daemons will be completely unplayable against them, and most other armies will have a significant disadvantage.

-What points cost are you envisioning for Cataphracts and Null Pillars? They'll have to be hellishly expensive to be balanced at all.

I had been thinking about a pure GK 5th edition force for a while... here's a few of my thoughts on the matter:

HQ's -

Grandmaster - give eternal warrior, +1 WS. fixed.
Brother-Captain - give 2 wounds, +1 WS, 90 pts base cost. fixed.
Chaplain - Same stats as brother captain, with re-rolls to hit. set cost at 130 pts.
Acting Brother Captain (Justicar) - same stats as brother captain, in power armor - 70 pts. boom, done.

Retinues - keep current rules, let the retinue take 2 special weapons instead of just 1.

****************

Elite-
Grey Knight Terminators... give them nemesis hammers + stormshields. (nemesis hammer is str10 i1, 3+ invl from shield).
Purgation squad... should be moved to elite status

Troops-
Grey Knights in power armor (they can deep strike)
Inquisitorial stormtroopers - given new stormtrooper IG stats.

Fast-
Grey Knights with jump packs - same stats as PAGK, with jump packs...

Heavy-
Venerable Dreadnoughts
Land Raiders
Orbital Bombardments
Predators (baal style, with psycannon + incinerators)





thoughts about units... give grey knights multiple passive psychic powers, similar to warlock powers. every squad can choose offensive or defensive abilities, and within those groups, powers like

shrouding- always roll to see as if night fighting.
shield of faith- gains a 5+ invulnerable save.
spirit of the martyr - gains FNP.

or offensive... like -

fury of the emperor- all GK gain +1 attack in hand to hand
Daemon's Bane -all members of the squad ignore inuvlnerable saves with ranged and close combat weapons.
Chant of Battle- the GK all gain +1 WS, and all enemies in base to base loose 1 attack

things like that.

Characters should have active psychic powers, but significantly better than what's available now. Examples -

Holocaust- STR should equal the number of members of the squad, with a multiplier of 2 if the caster is in terminator armor. AP should be 5.

Hammerhand- keep as is, but grants rending + ignores invulnerable saves.

ect.....

BeRzErKeR wrote:I think this is, well, waaaaaay OP.

-Shield Bearers; for 10 points you get a 24" assault 2 RENDING weapon, and a rending S4 CCW? Sign me up for six squads, please! Oh, and lets not forget the option for four meltaguns, which also count as power weapons! That's truly ridiculous.

-The fact that every single unit in the army ignores invulnerable saves as standard means that Daemons will be completely unplayable against them, and most other armies will have a significant disadvantage.

-What points cost are you envisioning for Cataphracts and Null Pillars? They'll have to be hellishly expensive to be balanced at all.

I realize its extreme. I figure starting overpowered and backing down would be simpler than going at it from the other way.
I think its more realistic to make it Range 12 or Assault 1, or both. Whatever is necessary to get to meet the 10pt mark I set.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Horst wrote:I had been thinking about a pure GK 5th edition force for a while... here's a few of my thoughts on the matter:

HQ's -

Grandmaster - give eternal warrior, +1 WS. fixed.
Brother-Captain - give 2 wounds, +1 WS, 90 pts base cost. fixed.
Chaplain - Same stats as brother captain, with re-rolls to hit. set cost at 130 pts.
Acting Brother Captain (Justicar) - same stats as brother captain, in power armor - 70 pts. boom, done.

Retinues - keep current rules, let the retinue take 2 special weapons instead of just 1.

****************

Elite-
Grey Knight Terminators... give them nemesis hammers + stormshields. (nemesis hammer is str10 i1, 3+ invl from shield).
Purgation squad... should be moved to elite status

Troops-
Grey Knights in power armor (they can deep strike)
Inquisitorial stormtroopers - given new stormtrooper IG stats.

Fast-
Grey Knights with jump packs - same stats as PAGK, with jump packs...

Heavy-
Venerable Dreadnoughts
Land Raiders
Orbital Bombardments
Predators (baal style, with psycannon + incinerators)

I don't think you need three tiers of commanders, no other army has three tiers, why should Grey Knights?

Orbital Bombardment, taking an FOC is stupid and a complaint I have with the current codex. I don't believe intangible assets without a model representing it should be in any army.

The new stormtroopers wouldn't fit in a Grey Knights army, what is that Hotshot lasgun going to do to a daemon? What do they bring to the army? I mean they are the primary deepstrike unit of the IG, but almost every GK can out do them in that regard.

Next, why no Dreadnought? Venerables don't just come out of nowhere, they're suppose to be very old dreadnoughts. If you have no dreadnoughts, then on a fluff basis, GK will never have replacement venerable dreadnoughts.

I'm all for reinventing aspects of the Grey Knights, but giving them "nemesis hammers" and stormshields is just a round about way of making them into normal marines on steroids as opposed to being something more unique.

Why should the purgation team be an elite? If just carrying extra guns make a unit elite, there are alot of misclassified armies.

My only issue with the predator is that it doesn't fit the rapid deployment nature of the Grey Knights. I realize land raiders don't either but GK have Land Raiders as opposed to other vehicles because they are that elite.

Jump packs? For an army that can teleport any of its troops, why would you need jump packs?

Eternal warrior, I understand special characters having it, but why would the grandmaster?

I like the idea of a 5th ed Inq Forces codex, but ...

The only thing missing here is the "I win button" wargear, +10 points. A lot of this stuff is insanely OP.

The grand master is basically a special character. He's a super badass. There are only 7 and they are probably the most powerful SM.

ghost11 wrote:I like the idea of a 5th ed Inq Forces codex, but ...

The only thing missing here is the "I win button" wargear, +10 points. A lot of this stuff is insanely OP.

Just to quote what I've already said:

aka_mythos wrote:
I realize its extreme. I figure starting overpowered and backing down would be simpler than going at it from the other way.

There isn't that much wrong with the current set of rules, in fairness. Here are a few changes I'd like to see made to make things a touch simpler.

Grandmaster gets WS of six and Eternal Warrior.
Brother Captain gets two wounds.
Both of them get a 4+ Invulnerable Iron Halo.

Assasins either no longer take up an Elite Slot or no longer require an as Inquisitor.

Dreadnaughts moved to Elites.

PAGK can take a transport. Psycannon Razorbacks maybe. Something to stop them slogging across the field unprotected or relying on Deep Strike.

Some decent fast attack choices. Jump Pack or Biker Knights might be suitable, but also something wierd and whacky as well. Possibly a Valk or Vednetta (because those are expensive models and the more armies that can take them...)

Some fun and new Heavy Support. Maybe something like the Drop Bastions from Planet Strike to create additional shelter and firepower, so essentially an over armoured drop pod that would work in reverse. Something unusual anyway.

I am curious to the justification of a non-special character getting eternal warrior when similar IC have a pre-established precedent of not having Eternal Warrior. I think that GK would get a number of special characters and one or more of them would have eternal warrior, but I don't think its appropriate for whats representative of a generic chapter master.

I agree on the Assassin no longer filling an FOC slot. Keep it 0-1, where it does not take a FOC slot.

The dreadnoughts is in the Elite section.

I thought between Land Raiders and Valkyries the PAGK would have enough transport options.

I don't feel either standard bikes or jump packs are appropriate to the Grey Knights. I think more than any other marine army they deserve to get some version of Space Marine jetbike, like marine had during the pre-heresey period and rogue trader. The image of Grey Knights jetting across the field and lancing a daemon seem approriate. I have in my proposed rules the Valk Vengence, to carry PAGK as well as Daemon hunting weapons. I also have drop pods carrying chuncks of the stuff that disrupt the spread of daemons and the eye of terror, that the Cadians guard, they would function to disrupt Daemons from out deepstriking Grey Knights.

Grey knights individually are more powerful than space marines by a significant amount. Grand masters are most likely much more powerful than space marine chapter masters. It would make sense for them to have eternal warrior.

Powerful is too broad a term to compare them to standard space marines. In all of Codex Space Marine only one guy has Eternal Warrior. I understand that Grey Knights are more "powerful" but if out of the 900,000 marines that are essentially covered by that book, only one guy has it, it needs to be something beyond the grasp of "mere" mortals. To say Grey Knight Chapter Masters are 100% of the time equal to or better than Marneus Calgar is a bit of a stretch.

I acknowledge that Grey Knights are tough stuff and are better than most Chapter Masters (as if having 7 chapter masters wasn't enough) but they shouldn't be that good out of the box. I definitely think a special character like Stern (after achieving full grand master status) would be an eternal warrior, but giving it to non-special characters is too much.

But that's the point. Grand Masters have literally been to hell and back. They should at least be Calgar's equal.

Perhaps not stat-wise, but I mean, Grey Knights were bred for a different mission than regular Space Marines. Grey Knights are meant to go and fight Daemons that would rip a regular Space Marine in two. Space Marines are meant to restore order and reclaim worlds for the Imperium.

However, Eternal Warrior would only be fair on Grand Masters.

I also think that Valkyries should be a fast attack choice for Daemonhunters.

Everyone wants a Grandmaster to have eternal warrior, I just don't get it. *shrug* I don't know what else to say.

I kinda have the Valkyries as fast attacks covered in my original post.

aka_mythos wrote:Everyone wants a Grandmaster to have eternal warrior, I just don't get it. *shrug* I don't know what else to say.

I kinda have the Valkyries as fast attacks covered in my original post.

How about "a grand master is superior to marneus calgar so he should have EW".

I don't get what's so difficult about this.

ph34r wrote:How about "a grand master is superior to marneus calgar so he should have EW".

As much as I dislike EW when we have access to retinues, I have to pretty much agree. Any GK GM should be able to make Calgar wet himself with little trouble. I mean, these guys are supposed to take the full psychic might of the Emperor without backing down, what's a lascannon going to do?

I think GW would argue differently. You have to cut through the fluff an realize that alot of the colorful language i just meant to make people feel better about their army choice.

Grandmaster's are supposed to go toe to toe with Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes. Eternal Warrior doesn't seem too out of place given the prey the guy hunts. The alternative is, of course, making it so his Nemesis Force Weapon and a pshychic test deffintely can kill them with a single wound rather having there Eternal Warrior negate his strongest attack.

I know it's all just fluff in the end of the day, but it would be nice if the guy wasn't likely to get trashed by the very things he's meant to hunt down.

I understand the need for Eternal Warrior, I don't like the justification.

I would prefer to see some explanation beyond "I'm the mother eff-ing Grand Master!"

I think if you wanted to make him effectively an "Eternal Warrior" there should be a psyker power that makes him have "eternal warrior". That to me gives some sort of justification that is balanced and justifiable. That psionic might protects him, but restricts his focus by taking up a psyker power for that turn.

Nice idea's guys. I think a rule making all units in the army fearless whilst an inquisitior is on the table could be cool. maybe only if the inquisitor has a specific wargear. Would have to cost a few points tho. Or they could use his leadership like an imperial guard vox caster but without having to equip a vox caster to each squad.

Grand Master SHOULD have IC. They are very expensive, there are only a few in 40k, and those are almost godlike figures.

I think the Inquisitorial storm troopers should be re-written from the Imperial Guard counter parts. To give them the improved leadership or fearlessness they need give them a special "mission" that comes standard. Something like "Mission: Inquisitorial Escort, as long as an Inquisitor is on the table, treat as fearless."

I don't know about fearless, but the improved leadership sounds ok.

Inquisitor lords can already decide to either pass or fail a leadersip test so if that was extended to the troops it would break the game really.

Break the game? Entire space marine armies can do that, and they do not break the game.

If WH40K deamons were 'THE ARMY' as is WHFB i could see a grossly OP list... but seriously, the whole of the Deamons List is meh. they are not the HUGE Smurfing as people would think. i would give Units of grey knights Preferred Enemy for a specific type of Deamon, ie Khorne, Tzeench ect. Maybe even more focussed, like PE: Bloodletters or Plauge Bearers. also i would give them this:
Hexagrammic Wards: ANY model/unit attempting to enter play via Deep Strike that ends up within 12" of a model with this rule is returned to reserves. that model automatically passes its reserves roll next turn. if this Model is a deamon, it takes a S4 hit, no Invulnerable saves allowed. Against Wounds from Deamon units, this models Armor save is Invulerable.
to counter the broken potential of this rule, i would put point cost/number of unit restrictions on GK. like a purely GK army being some 20 or 30 models: 2 units of standard grey Knights, 1 unit of Termies, 1 HQ. while im unsure of the official number of GK in the chapter, i would assume due to the EXACTING nature of the Trials and requirements nessissary, it would be significantly less than a codex chapter, but have far more support.

Oddly, no. The Grey Knights are larger that a codex Chapter. Several thousand members strong before you get to there support staff. The difference is they're in small groups, sometimes jusst four knights and a Justicar, attatched to a Space Marine force or looking into a possible incursion. It's rare to see a gathering of Grey Knights in triple didgets, and usually because something seriously bad has happened.

I suppose that, although there training is harsher and there limited to psychers, they have access to far more recruiting worlds.

Hmm.

Going with some of the ideas the OP suggested:

Grey Knight
Stubborn, Deep Strike, ATSKNF, Warding, True Grit

Involcator
Rg24 S8 AP1 Assault 1, Tank Hunter, Ignores Inv saves
OR
Rg24 S7 AP5 Assault 1, Large Blast, Ignores Inv saves, Wounds agaist Ld

HQ
Grandmaster - 140
WS6 BS6 S4 T4 W3 I5 A4 Ld10 Sv2+/4++
Iron Will, Grey Knight, Psyker, IC
Comes with a Nemesis Force Weapon and Storm Bolter.
Upgrade SB to Combi-weapon for 5p, Incinerator for 15p, Psycannon for 20p, Storm Shield for 20p
Upgrade NFW to Daemonhammer (as CH) for 20p, Chainfist for 5p, Annointed Weapon for 10p
Replace SB+NFW to Twin Lighting Claws for free.

Brother Captain - 90
WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I5 A3 Ld10 Sv2+/5++
Iron Will, Grey Knight, Psyker, IC
Comes with a Nemesis Force Weapon and Storm Bolter.
Upgrade SB to Combi-weapon for 5p, Incinerator for 15p, Psycannon for 20p, Storm Shield for 20p
Upgrade NFW to Daemonhammer (as CH) for 20p, Chainfist for 5p, Annointed Weapon for 10p
Replace SB+NFW to Twin Lighting Claws for free.

ELITE
GKT (3) - 150
WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I5 A2 Ld10 Sv2+/5++
Grey Knight, Psyker
Comes with a Nemesis Force Weapon and Storm Bolter.
Upgrade SB to Combi-weapon for 5p, Storm Shield for 10p
Upgrade NFW to Thunderhammer for 10p, Chainfist for 10p
Replace SB+NFW to Twin Lighting Claws for free
Up to 2 models may replace their SB with Incinerator for 15p, Psycannon for 20p

GKPS (3) - 75
WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld9 Sv3+
Grey Knight
Comes with a Nemesis Force Weapon and Storm Bolter.
Up to 4 models may replace their NFW+SB with Incinerator for 15p, Psycannon for 20p, Invocator for 25p
May add up to 7 more models for 24 points each


TROOPS
PAGK (3) - 75
WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld9 Sv3+
Grey Knight
Comes with a Nemesis Force Weapon and Storm Bolter.
Up to 2 models may replace their NFW+SB with Incinerator for 15p, Psycannon for 20p, Invocator for 25p
May add up to 7 more models for 24 points each

Storm Troops
As before, but 8 points per model.

FA
GK Cataphrackt (sp?) (3) - 140
WS5 BS5 S4 T4(5) W1 I4 A1 Ld9 Sv3+/4++
Grey Knight, Jet Bike
Comes with a Nemesis Force Weapon and Twin Linked Storm Bolter.
Up to 2 models may replace their NFW with Incinerator for 15p, Psycannon for 20p, Invocator for 25p
May add up to 7 more models for 45 points each

HS
Dreadnought
Ven. Dreadnought
Land Raider
Land Raider Crusiader
Land Raider Redeemer


All squads have a Sarge with +1Ld and +1A
All models with a Storm Bolter may buy Psy ammo for 3p
All Heavy Bolters may buy psy ammo for 8p

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Break the game? Entire space marine armies can do that, and they do not break the game.

I think the point was missed by the other poster. It was not to propose that specific rule, but was to show the nature of leadership enhancing rules that an Inquisitor could convey.

The description would read: The Inquisitor has purged the weak willed and unclean souls from this formation, leaving only those truly loyal in body, mind, and spirit to the Emperors will. These units have been indoctrinated and driven to show their loyality and devotion. Inducted units recieve a...

Black Antelope wrote:
Going with some of the ideas the OP suggested:
...

My only issue is that from the list you've posted the Grey Knights would still need some additional unit options to be viable.

I also think that a particular mindset needs to be broken to further improve their viability. Just because they currently have special weapons that have the stats of heavy weapons, does not mean they wouldn't have heavier versions of those weapons.

Black Antelope wrote:

FA
GK Cataphrackt (sp?) (3) - 140
WS5 BS5 S4 T4(5) W1 I4 A1 Ld9 Sv3+/4++
Grey Knight, Jet Bike
Comes with a Nemesis Force Weapon and Twin Linked Storm Bolter.
Up to 2 models may replace their NFW with Incinerator for 15p, Psycannon for 20p, Invocator for 25p
May add up to 7 more models for 45 points each

All decent, if a little close to being SM, up until here. Grey Knights focus on teleportation for their transportation, not bikes, jetpacks, or rhinos. Jetbikes just don't fit with Grey Knights.

If they can teleport terminator armor and power armor what says they can't teleport a bike sized vehicle. Besided Grey Knights also use dreadnoughts and landraiders why would a teleportation restriction matter when other components of their force are not capable of teleportation?

I think that eternal warrior isn't such a bad idea for him, considering there are only 7 of them and they seem to be rather amazing, I don't see why not? In my codex there is an IC with eternal warrior, the demon prince, also the Avatar has it and so does the wraithlord, not too sure about the last one though.

The point is, he is so old and has seen so many battles, that he holds such a place as a demon prince or avatar in this army and so forth eternal warrior is justified.

You could make a 'grand master' generic model like the chapter master for the space marines without eternal warrior and then make 7 special characters for all of the grand masters (Like the pheonex lords) and give them special stats, equipment and eternal warrior.

Was just looking and thought I'd say my piece ^_^

Does anybody have any ideas on how to improve Inquisitors? I mean, I know they shouldn't be pwning Carnifexes and such, but come on, they get bitch-slapped by Tactical Marines!

Any ideas?

Inquisitors are hard to work. On one hand they're just humans on the other hand they're heroic characters of sorts. The Imperial guard charcters show that humans can have decent stats, but generally puny strength and toughness. I think you could write rules for wargear to effectively mitigate those weaknesses. For example weapons that give +1 to the models strength. You stack enough of those things and you have a model that is only "human" in name and not in effective use.

Indeed, inquisitors could be equipped with psychic powers and retinue to make them more powerful and tough surely? Also, couldn't they have the option to have power armour or even terminator armour? I've seen a few inquisitor models and the inquisitors are in power armour for one or two and one of them is in terminator armour, or at least massive power armour.

Also, couldn't you use Eisenhorn as a special character in the codex? He would be more powerful than the average inquisitor or you could use Inquisitor Lord Coteaz, he's damn powerful as well isn't he?

I don't know if psyker powers are the best way. Not all Inquisitors are psykers. I think it is one way to mitigate their overall weakness, but not on a stats level.

Hmmm.... maybe have two types of inquisitor? One that relies on tech and equipment for his skills and the other on psychic abilities, that way each has a different stat line to reflect their forte and has different things available to him to enhance themselves.

Also you could make the retinue of each differ in what you can have in them to make them suitable for the inquisitor (Make them more of a buffing unit rather than a beefy bodyguard)

Well I think the solution is probably something more like Ordo Malleus inquisitors are one way, Ordo Hereticus possibly Ordo Xenos are the the other. Ordo malleus might only get wargear that either does very basic things like, terminator armor with its save, with the non-basic wargear options relying on his psker powers, like a familiar. Ordo xenos might rely on weird injectables and tau power suit. Ordo Hereticus might rely on weapons that auto-wound or ignore invulnerable saves or the alike.

I think the IG command squad with advisors is a good example of how the Inquisitors retinue should be handled.

aka_mythos wrote:Inquisitors are hard to work. On one hand they're just humans on the other hand they're heroic characters of sorts. The Imperial guard charcters show that humans can have decent stats, but generally puny strength and toughness. I think you could write rules for wargear to effectively mitigate those weaknesses. For example weapons that give +1 to the models strength. You stack enough of those things and you have a model that is only "human" in name and not in effective use.

I've always thought that Inquisitors should just be an HQ option for an Imperial Guard army, alongside of their retinue.

Have taking an Inquisitor as the HQ open up avenues for better equipped Guard units as Troops, or specialist Ordos kit available to the units under his command.

But Inquisitors very rarely lead IG armies into battl under normal circumstances do they? They would be much better suited to an army based around the inquisition where they nearly always lead the army, but I do like the idea of an ordo malleus, xenos and herticus

Great Unclean One wrote:But Inquisitors very rarely lead IG armies into battle under normal circumstances do they? They would be much better suited to an army based around the inquisition where they nearly always lead the army, but I do like the idea of an ordo malleus, xenos and herticus

You can't really "base an army around the Inquisition" though. The Inquisition is such a vague and broadly defined entity that it just will not work, as we saw with the wishywashy Allied Units situations in Codex: Daemonhunters.

As for Inquisitors leading armies? Sure they do, whenever they damn well please That Rosette means they act with the authority of the Emperor himself, and He won't look too fondly on the Guard Commanders who don't move themselves to the background if the Inquisitor wants to lead the army himself.

But I think the real confusion in this situation is the idea of them "leading" a Guard army into combat. Most Inquisitors would spread themselves and their staff to where they'd work best in the army, and be content to let the standard chain of command reign.
So in this case, think of the Inquisitor and his retinue as an HQ choice with Advisors that get spread throughout the regiment and gives a radical difference to the army composition itself(provided it's not a regiment that's just coopted into the Inquisitor's service).

I think one way to the view the Inquisition, in no strict terms, is like the different intelligence agencies of the government. Say the Ordo Malleus, Order Xenos, and Ordo Hereticus are like the NSA, CIA, and FBI respectively. All have distinctive tasks with some overlapping responsibility. Each recruit and form elite (para) military units. And while members can assert sanctioned authority over military units, it is done outside a chain of command in more of an advisory role. The Imperium maybe different in that respect but the point is that the normal military structure is present, just with the commanding officer answerable to this outsider.

Just because an agent or inquisitor is present on the battlefield does not mean he changes the nature of the military unit. There has to be something more situational and less inherent about the contribution.

In a "realistic" way an Inquisitor represents a more intelligence and clandestine capability for the army they're along side. Providing situaltional information like "the best way to kill this new 'bug'" or "how to prepare ones mind for the presence of daemons" or "training to spot a witch."

Should we maybe move this towards a new thread about what we'd like to see for the Inquisition?

I don't think that necessary. Thus has the OP spoken. Thus shall it be.

So the topic is still about the Demonhunters codex? If so is it about ideas for it or are we making a fan based new codex?

One and then maybe the other.

Lets assert that codex daemonhunters is being redone and needs some new units to bring it up to the same numbers seen in other army lists. What new units should they receive?

While its justifiable that they get anything space marines have, that just isn't interesting, and the Daemonhunters really deserve better than left overs.

aka_mythos wrote:I think one way to the view the Inquisition, in no strict terms, is like the different intelligence agencies of the government. Say the Ordo Malleus, Order Xenos, and Ordo Hereticus are like the NSA, CIA, and FBI respectively. All have distinctive tasks with some overlapping responsibility. Each recruit and form elite (para) military units. And while members can assert sanctioned authority over military units, it is done outside a chain of command in more of an advisory role. The Imperium maybe different in that respect but the point is that the normal military structure is present, just with the commanding officer answerable to this outsider.

Just because an agent or inquisitor is present on the battlefield does not mean he changes the nature of the military unit. There has to be something more situational and less inherent about the contribution.

In a "realistic" way an Inquisitor represents a more intelligence and clandestine capability for the army they're along side. Providing situaltional information like "the best way to kill this new 'bug'" or "how to prepare ones mind for the presence of daemons" or "training to spot a witch."

Well, the way I was meaning:

Perhaps having a Xenos Inquisitor leading a Guard force would grant the ability to purchase things like Hellfire/Kraken shells for the Heavy Bolters--or, like you said, a way to upgrade the army itself into having 'advanced training' for combating the various Xenos breeds the Inquisitor has encountered? Then availability of kit that would be better suited for putting down Psykers/Mutants for the Hereticus Inquisitor's force, things like your Null Stone(which is an awesome idea, by the way) and a more advanced training regime in CQB styled tactics(move/fire at a reduced strength/rate) for the Malleus Inquisitor's force?

Something like the last Guard codex's "Xenos-Fighters" doctrine, where they have to SPECIFICALLY be represented somehow or another(in this case--on the actual Inquisitor himself, maybe making a very recognizable 'profile' for each Ordos? Say--Powered Armor+hammer/libram=Malleus, less ornate, more covert yet functional armor would be the profile you'd see on a Hereticus agent, and something like how Solomon Lok looks for the Xenos agents?)

I dunno, maybe I'm just wishlisting here. But another part of the idea was to have the ability to upgrade Stormtroopers/Grenadier Veterans from their current incarnation to an "Inquisitorial" version, with access to 'better' tech(again--with an actual representation being required).

Well I think at the heart of this are two slightly different things. When an Inquisitor goes into battle there are two ways he does this, he grabs the troops maintained by his ordo and leads them, or he takes "command" of an imperial garrison of IG or Marines. Each instance produces a similar but different result.

A marine or IG army with an accompanying Inquisitor would have slightly different benefits than a Daemonhunter list that contains tweaked units that exist in parallel to units in those armies. An Inquisitor might be able to provide a garrison extra tactical information but an Inquisitor needs to travel quickly and might not be able to bring a warehouse full of special equipment where ever he goes.

Whatever the Inquisitors convey on an IG or Marine army needs to be simple yet worthwhile, that adds to those armies rules without changing profiles. When you start to change profiles and stats you create the sort of situation of confusion that GW would want to avoid in producing a new rule set.

I agree that we should focus on an inqusition focused force rather than a chracter (The Inquisitor) That would bolster another imperial army. Maybe we should focus on one force organisation first? I would have thought we start from the top, at HQ and special characters. Here are my ideas for what we could include and work out stats for -

Special Characters-

Grand Masters
Eisenhorn
Kryptman
Hector Rex
Lord Coteaz

HQ-

Xenos Inquisitor
Hereticus Inquisitor
Malleus Inquisitor
(Inquisitor retinue)

I don't think we're attempting an all in one list. I think it should be even narrower than that. As a starting point think more like the current codex, but with all the allied stuff left out. The army should be predominantly the chamber militant, army of the ordo, with tinges of the Inquisitors. Where they don't lead but provide support.

I'd say that in a Grey Knights army Inquisitors should have a presence similar to that of Master of the forge/Techmarines in a Space Marine army, they have their own abilities and special equipment, with a unique retinue but where they don't re-define the army. They become another way to accentuate the mission of the army.

I would say, thought should be given to new Grey Knight units. While they can recieve everything every other imperial army has, too much and they're diluted. So what are some good flavorful units?

Hmmmm.... It's just going to be differently equipped grey knights isn't it? So for fast attack you'd have grey knights with jump packs? Wouldn't this just result in a clone of Space Marines but slightly more expensive with different weapons?

aka_mythos wrote:I don't think we're attempting an all in one list. I think it should be even narrower than that. As a starting point think more like the current codex, but with all the allied stuff left out. The army should be predominantly the chamber militant, army of the ordo, with tinges of the Inquisitors. Where they don't lead but provide support.

I'd say that in a Grey Knights army Inquisitors should have a presence similar to that of Master of the forge/Techmarines in a Space Marine army, they have their own abilities and special equipment, with a unique retinue but where they don't re-define the army. They become another way to accentuate the mission of the army.

I would say, thought should be given to new Grey Knight units. While they can recieve everything every other imperial army has, too much and they're diluted. So what are some good flavorful units?

Good, flavorful units?

Well, we've yet to see Grey Knight Librarians and Chaplains, which we know to exist.

Maybe variant Terminator/Power Armored squads kitted out for different roles?

Ex: an "Assault" squad of Power Armored Grey Knights would be hefting Storm Shields and Nemesis Force Weapons--alongside of having teleport assault rules like they do?

Terminator squads armed with Heavy Incinerators/Heavy Psycannons and the Slow and Purposeful rule as Heavy Support? Kind of a mobile walking purgatory for heretics!

Land Raiders and Rhinos should be reduced cost for GKs, in my view. We know they have them, we know they have *alot* of them. We just also know that they usually are not in situations where heavy armored vehicles are necessary.
Things like that could be an interesting way to go, along with perhaps allowing Brother-Captains to be taken as upgrades to Terminator squads--have them be more like Wolf Guard(all Justicars/higher ranked members) rather than Ultramarines.

That sounds good, shall we focus first of all on the main troop choice? The power armoured grey knights, any ideas for what sort of weapons they could have and upgrades and costs?

Well, put simply?

They'd have to be something to be feared to earn that 'elite' status the Grey Knights have...but still be piddly enough to be Troops.

That's where the difficulty in this army idea comes from.

Well.... we could make it more of an elite army, that way we can make the troops for the army slightly better than most but more expensive, not better troops but better equipment available?

That's kind of the point.

If anything, this would be the only army where I'd say having a "Troops" choice is functionally idiotic.

Indeed, but it represents the least powerful or specialised men of each army, so in comparison they are less powerful than the grey knight terminators correct? Then in comparison they should be in the troop choice should they not?

You're applying logic here.

Don't.

I have an unorthodox idea... but stick with me for a second... the power armored Grey Knights are newbies in the army. So in comparisson to a normal marine army they are like scouts. In some of the marine armies the scouts are Elites and not troops. I think an interesting twist would be to switch the power armored Grey Knights with the Terminators and make the TRUE Grey Knights troops in their own army.

So make it more like a Deathwing list?

I've always thought Grey Knights would be an amazing Deathwing army.
Sold.

If that were done the powered armor grey knights could be given special gear recon gear or whatever to make them more versitile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In the fluff before this, they were exclussively terminator armor. So I see no harm in this.

Come to think of it, there's an even better idea.

Take the Dark Angels approach for what units are Troops v. what units are Elites.

Say you have Brother-Captain Stern leading your army...Grey Knight Terminators are now Troops, and PAGKs are now Elite choices--that count as Troops for purposes of scenario rules(deciding what deploys when, etc).

Allow for PAGKs to have Teleport Beacons available--fwabam. You've got an army that operates amazingly for both fluff--and even would give Daemons a run for their money in the "suddenly appearing army" avenue.

Oh... that would be good.... so different HQ units allow you to get new force organisation chart or count this unit as elite or something? I do like the idea of terminators as troops... would make the units much more elite!

I think eternal warrior should only be reserved for units that can actually survive things like an orbital bombardment. Things like greater deamons and really big orks.

Grand masters dont deserve it. I dont think calgar does either but cant do anything about that.

...Except Greater Daemons and "really big Orks" wouldn't survive an orbital bombardment, so the point is moot either way.

What do you all think about Rhinos/Razorbacks for PAGK?
I'd imagine they should have them. They can't teleport their Land Raiders, so it wouldn't break the fluff.

What do you all think about allowing Power Armored Brother Captains?
Personally I'd like them, if only so that they could fit into Rhinos/Razorbacks.

What do you all think is a good fix for the Daemonhunters lack of anti-tank?
I'd imagine that at the very least, the Daemonhunters need melta weapons. One idea I've had is to give Incinerators an alternative firing mode of a Meltagun (for balance purposes this prolly shouldn't ignore invuln). This would of course make Incinerators more expensive. I'd also be interested in seeing some real heavy weapons for Purgation squads; maybe some type of Psychic Missle Launcher?

For fast attack, would you be opposed to getting Grey Knight Land Speeders?
They'd add an easy anti-tank helper, and, being anti-grav, are rare enough for Grey Knights to warrant large numbers of them.

Well, see...thing is they do have Razorbacks/Rhinos--if you count Siege of Vraks, Volume 3.

Rhino, Razorbacks, and landspeeders... where does it stop? If they get all of this on top of Land Raider and Dreadnought variants, they end up looking more and more like a normal marine chapter and less like an elite strike force.

I think the way to deal with Eternal Warrior is to make it an ability tied to the Grandmaster through a selected psyker power. Where it is taken as one of his choices of psyker powers making it a bit of a trade off in addition to the point cost and is justified as part of his psyker mojo instead of an inherent physical ability.

What about Razorbacks armed for Daemonic Incursions makes them less an elite strike force?

I'd say, if nothing else, the Rhinos/Razorbacks work well given that they'd be relatively easier to 'drop' into combat than a Land Raider--and be able to provide some much needed heavier fire support.

I could see Grey Knights operating somewhat like Airborne forces did in WWII, to be honest.
Heavily armed, heavily trained, with very little support outside of air superiority or fire missions from outside sources.

Maybe something like
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M22_Locust could be brought in to replace Predators?

Hmmm, you could make the 'Eternal Warrior' psychic power something like the emperor willing them to live, a bit like how Abbadon has it due to the chaos gods having a 'plan' for him?

Also, I think giving them rarer tanks may be a good idea, to be honest we could just make up a new tank, made on the tracks of a rhino but with a heavier gun on the top? Something that fired psychic energy or some form of holy fire?

On eternal warrior... thats exactly what I mean.

The rarer tank I would be hessitant of. The idea of a locust or light dropable tank is already what space marines have. A rhino, like it real life counterpart, M113 is designed to be flown in a dropped. That mobility is the realistic explanation why Space Marines use a weaker transport than the Imperial Guard, sacrificing armament and armor for atmospheric drop capability.

I've pushed for in the past that the aspect of marine tanks being flown in on Thunderhawk transport and dropped be represented. Maybe rather than inventing whole new tanks, we allow Rhino and razorbacks... but for a number of additional points can be deepstriked... or maybe give it outflank if a deep strike tank is too much.

Hmmm.... I would think deepstrike but with a few additional rules, something like a unit cannot disembark when it's been dropped in and the tank cannot shoot next turn due to the jolt?

I like the cannot disembark, but I think maybe replace the second part with a modified version of the vehicle damage chart. Roll 1d6, 6+ Bad Landing (Immobilized), 5-4 Crew Shaken, 3-2 Crew Stunned, 1 Safe Landing (no effect). If landing on terrain +1, impassible terrain +2.

aka_mythos wrote:On eternal warrior... thats exactly what I mean.

The rarer tank I would be hessitant of. The idea of a locust or light dropable tank is already what space marines have. A rhino, like it real life counterpart, M113 is designed to be flown in a dropped. That mobility is the realistic explanation why Space Marines use a weaker transport than the Imperial Guard, sacrificing armament and armor for atmospheric drop capability.

I've pushed for in the past that the aspect of marine tanks being flown in on Thunderhawk transport and dropped be represented. Maybe rather than inventing whole new tanks, we allow Rhino and razorbacks... but for a number of additional points can be deepstriked... or maybe give it outflank if a deep strike tank is too much.

See, I don't think "inventing" whole new tanks would be too far out.

How about a Predator variant with a psycannon that can be airdropped via Thunderhawk?
Or maybe a drop podded Razorback that's uparmored--or even a teleported Razorback?

The possibilities are endless!

I agree, I think having the tanks dropped in with some new rules for what happens when they get dropped, but I think having alternative weapons based on psycannons would be better suited to the army....

Daemonhunters do need work - i have played them for years and in 5th they are just not that good.

I think eternal warrior is overused. Rather than giving the grandmaster ew, continue to allow his nfw to instagib ew models. Fixed.

Terminators should get the option of nf hammer and stormshield with 3+ inv. 1 per squad.

Assassins should not take up an foc - they should come as an option with the inquisitor.

Footslogging is so 4th - the gk need dedicated transports of some sort. GK Valk/Vendetta seems fluffy and reasonable. Psycannons rather than heavy bolters... ...drop pods would be good as well.

If teleporting is the way to go for GK, then they need help - either a form of heroic intervention to allow them to assault the turn they drop, or beefed shrouding to protect them until they can.

As they are a very elite and powerful group, rather than reducing their cost, beef them up and make them worth the points. T5 for all grey knights?

No bikes or rhinos/chimeras - that is not how they roll.

Dreadnought - nfw ccw, inferno replaces flamer, psycannon replaces stormbolter.
Ironclad and venerable options.

Better options vs the 5th edition daemons.

I am cautiously optimistic...

I do like the idea of a plane used to drop them in.... we could make it so that they have some form of thruster in their boots that allow them to slightly hover when they get close to the ground or if they get dropped off by a belt clip attached to a rail, so when they have dropped down enough they can automatically drop themselves on the ground and get into action?

Negative on Valkyries/Vendettas. They're the exclusive domain of 'normal' Imperial agencies, which any form of Astartes based ones don't fit with the idea of it.

Plus, that's why they have Thunderhawks.

I was thinking of something more elite than that, something like an inquisitorial strike cruiser or something a bit bigger than a thunderhawk or something, not actually using it as a model to battle with but as a reason/explanation for how they deep strike as accurately and are able to assault....

If that's the case, Grey Knight Strike Cruisers fit the bill perfectly.

Indeed, we just use those then, we can say that they swoop in on the battlefield and use ropes/belays to lower themselves down combined with small thrusters in the boots to allow for stability so they can go into combat as soon as they touch down?

Wait what?

Strike Cruisers are ships that would have to be anchored in low/high orbit. They're *huge*.

We could say they use something like the Mobile Infantry from the Starship Troopers novel, however, with a kind of 'fire control' system that launches drop pods with precision accuracy.

I think Valkyries are appropriate for the inquisitor or any other inquistor tied units we allow in. Which are Inquisitors, Storm Troopers (maybe), Assassins (don't need transp.), demonhost and that's kinda it...

For the Inquisitor and his personal contingent of Stormtroopers? Sure.

For Grey Knights? Heck no. They maintain a working fleet of Thunderhawks for that purpose.

Grey Knights would work better with thunderhawks or some form of 'quick action' drop pod.... maybe springloaded or some form of cross hare teleportation that allows them to teleport onto the battlefield very accurately?

A friend suggested it might be an idea to add some new rules to the existing Grey Knight weapons, rather than loading them down with standard Marine gear. An Anti-Tank firing mode for the Psycannon or the melta rule added to the Incinerator would give them all the anti tank they needed.

Of course, they'd need a price hike. And I'm not sure the idea of a flamer with melta is terribly sensible. Too mutli-purpose, too much of a no brainer, and it auto hits. But the Psycannon one could work. It would certainly make Terminators quite lethal.

Seeing how everything this edition is getting cheaper for everyone, if you make it better just keep the cost the same.

I think for deepstrike/drop pods give them the night fighting rule. so it allows them to arrive 'unharmed'.

On the subject of points... It's a must that either grey knights get cheaper or they get better stats for their points e.g. +1 T because of how their trainings so hard 'n' stuff.

And maybe a Lone wolf kind of option like the space wolves have would make a good elite choice for GK

if you ask me, aside from upgrading all the stuff regarding instability, and the +1 WS to BC/GM and +1W to BC (you know, the basic stuff), one thing id REALLY like to see is the ability that lets the grey knights (maybe just PAGK, maybe all of them) shoot mid movement, so you can run between cover while shooting, showing the grey knights greater skill in their powerarmor and greater marksmanship while moving. Maybe to offset this possibly being a bit broken, they get lower BS while shooting during their movement phase.

dunno, just my thoughts. ive always played greyknights as a move shoot move shoot army, staying on the move, cause thats the way ive always envisioned grey knights fighting, it just gets annoying that i have to run out of cover to shoot, and if i end my movement in cover, i cant shoot that turn (btw, when i use the term cover, i mean LOS cover, not cover save terrain).

just my thoughts, but i like grey knights alot as they are (aside from the obvious outdated stuff)

edit: oh and plastic models XD

Sorry if this is a massive post guys. I was reading through this, was about to post, and realised I had no Dakka dakka forum profile (oops!). I signed up for one, but had to wait a day for it to go through, and in the mean time, kept collecting ideas... Oh so by the way, hi everybody, first post, yay, etc
I'll try to keep it formatted so that its not painful to read

aka_mythos wrote:Rhino, Razorbacks, and landspeeders... where does it stop? If they get all of this on top of Land Raider and Dreadnought variants, they end up looking more and more like a normal marine chapter and less like an elite strike force.

I think the way to deal with Eternal Warrior is to make it an ability tied to the Grandmaster through a selected psyker power. Where it is taken as one of his choices of psyker powers making it a bit of a trade off in addition to the point cost and is justified as part of his psyker mojo instead of an inherent physical ability.

Transports:
I certainly agree. Although rhinos, razorbacks and drop-pods are all useful tools, and in character they would probably make use of them if they had them, I think for the meta-game purpose of setting Grey Knights apart from normal marines, they should not have them. In addition, though, I feel that any use of a transport (especially drop pods) really undercuts the emphasis on they GK's mastery of teleportation. I don't even like land raiders (though, of all the vehicles, I suppose at least they have the super elite, stuff of legends, transport)

Grandmaster and EW:
I also agree that >if< the Grand Master had Eternal Warrior, it would be more appropriate to make it a reflection of his psykic prowess, rather than how superbadass of a fighter he is. There was discussion of a Grandmaster being better than Calgar, since he can slay the mightiest daemons of the warp, and therefore he should get EW. I disagree - I feel Calgar should be able to lay flat the Grandmaster with his powerfists with no problems. Calgar is a warrior - Grandmaster is a Daemonhunter. Calgar spent his life fighting and pursuing physical perfection - Grandmaster spent his life reading the Grimoire of True Names, developing his anti-daemon psykic powers, and otherwise becoming highly specialist. Calgar is good at killing people, but would probably get killed by a daemon. Daemonhunter excels at banishing daemons, but would have less experience vs normal material world troops.
Calgar > Grandmaster > Daemon (and Daemon would go back to trumping Calgar, like a rock-scissors-paper).

Dreadnoughts:
I also disagree with the whole Dreadnought stuff; they are awesome models, but they're not appropriate by the fluff. Right next to the dreadnought entry it actually states that the Knights would rather die and rest happy-face on Titan, rather than be wired into dreadnought armour. Though, since since that same paragraph does say that occasionally some will choose to live on as man-machine, I think it'd be more appropriate, and flavourful, if there was maybe a special GK character, along the lines of a Radical Daemonhunter (who tends to break the rules, and live unconventionally) that was interred in Dreadnought armour.

Jetbikes:
I actually love the idea of Jetbikes for Grey Knights. Nothing is more heroic and inspiring than a knight in shining order, borne upon a mighty steed. Since Grey Knights already have the baroque armour, swords, and appearance of medieval knights (more so than standard marines, at least), I think its not too far of a stretch to imagine them with jetbike cavalry, wielding nemesis force lances.

Inquisitors:
As some have mentioned, I really feel the best way to represent an Inquisitor, is to do him like the IG command squad. The inquisitor should, with the right wargear, be able to take on certain enemies, but otherwise he should just be a regular S3 T3 human. I strongly feel that an Inquisitor's real power lies in his experience, knowledge and resources, rather than his combat prowess. This would best be represented by giving special qualities or weapons to units he joins, such as giving them preferred enemy (his experience and knowledge), or letting them reroll shooting wounds (fluffwise, giving them hellfire rounds, or something - a representation of his resources), or by keeping his retinue of henchmen (another representation of his vast resources), but giving them cool army wide tactical abilities, like the Master of Ordnance, Officer of the Fleet, and Astropath, have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And a few more thoughts

Deep Strike
I'd enjoy seeing a CSM Chaos Icon type of item, that allows units deep-striking onto it to move-shoot-assault on the turn they come in. I think it'd really increase the effectiveness of the Grey Knights when they land, and also add a lot of tactical planning with your Icon bearing units - either your Terminators land as normal, and scatter, or they come in on a well positioned scouting type squad, and launch an immediate and devastating attack from there.

Psychic Effigy
Just a thought I had for a psykic power, or at least squad upgrade thats explained using psykic powers. I'll assume squad upgrade in this example:
Psykic effigy would add an additional model to your squad. Its a defensive model that would provide each member in the unit with either an invulnerable save (just a cheap one, like +5), feel no pain, or some other defensive quality (maybe T5).
Whenever wounds are allocated in the squad, wounds must always be allocated first to the effigy (i.e. effigy gets a wound, then you can put wounds on other models). When the effigy dies, the defensive bonus it gave disappears.

I think it would be useful, and a unique addition to a Grey Knights unit. unit It provides a basic amount of protection to a unit, early in the game (especially when they deepstrike), without just going overboard and ALWAYS giving them an invulnerable save, or some other increase.

An "effigy is burned as a sign of the participants' shared intent to banish the represented element from their lives."
The effigy might even be a bound daemon, locked in a temporary psykic shell, forced into a brief and painful existence as a meatshield. The whole "burning the effigy" thing, but using a bound daemon, really gives my radical Daemonhunters side a spark of excitement


Orbital fleep support
I love the idea of Orbital Bombardment. What I think would be an interesting Heavy Support choice would be something like "Orbital Fleet" - a swiss army knife choice that represents the additional firepower and resources that a ship orbiting the planet can offer to its ground forces
Options to upgrade it, though, could include a multitude of things such as
Orbital Bombardment: <as normal, with various types>
Teleport Ambush: A scouting unit is teleported into enemy ships or behind enemy lines, to disrupt plans and stall reinforcements. Enemies arriving from reserves have a chance to take some number of wounds, and/or, enemy reserve rolls are taken at a penalty, successful ones rerolled, etc (just some upgrade to interferre with reserves)
Communication Jammers: The ship has filled the airwaves and psykic channels with static interferrences. After deployment, you may reposition some number of enemy units, due to enemy orders being misinterpreted by the troops.
Beam-me-up: You may remove models from the field, as they are teleported back up to the capital ships. This could deny your opponent kill points, or let you regroup the scattered remains of several units, back into one complete unit, and re-deepstrike it at a later point.

Granted, there would be no model for this, I do recall one poster saying they didn't feel satisfied spending points, but not putting a model on the table. Fair point, though personally I like the fact that I have a force organization slot filled up with something hovering in space.

I dunno how well the Orbital Fleet would work, or how well it would be received, but I, like I said, enjoy the idea of using my space cruisers to affect the battle down below

aka_mythos wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:I think this is, well, waaaaaay OP.

-Shield Bearers; for 10 points you get a 24" assault 2 RENDING weapon, and a rending S4 CCW? Sign me up for six squads, please! Oh, and lets not forget the option for four meltaguns, which also count as power weapons! That's truly ridiculous.

-The fact that every single unit in the army ignores invulnerable saves as standard means that Daemons will be completely unplayable against them, and most other armies will have a significant disadvantage.

-What points cost are you envisioning for Cataphracts and Null Pillars? They'll have to be hellishly expensive to be balanced at all.

I realize its extreme. I figure starting overpowered and backing down would be simpler than going at it from the other way.
I think its more realistic to make it Range 12 or Assault 1, or both. Whatever is necessary to get to meet the 10pt mark I set.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Horst wrote:I had been thinking about a pure GK 5th edition force for a while... here's a few of my thoughts on the matter:

HQ's -

Grandmaster - give eternal warrior, +1 WS. fixed.
Brother-Captain - give 2 wounds, +1 WS, 90 pts base cost. fixed.
Chaplain - Same stats as brother captain, with re-rolls to hit. set cost at 130 pts.
Acting Brother Captain (Justicar) - same stats as brother captain, in power armor - 70 pts. boom, done.

Retinues - keep current rules, let the retinue take 2 special weapons instead of just 1.

****************

Elite-
Grey Knight Terminators... give them nemesis hammers + stormshields. (nemesis hammer is str10 i1, 3+ invl from shield).
Purgation squad... should be moved to elite status

Troops-
Grey Knights in power armor (they can deep strike)
Inquisitorial stormtroopers - given new stormtrooper IG stats.

Fast-
Grey Knights with jump packs - same stats as PAGK, with jump packs...

Heavy-
Venerable Dreadnoughts
Land Raiders
Orbital Bombardments
Predators (baal style, with psycannon + incinerators)

I don't think you need three tiers of commanders, no other army has three tiers, why should Grey Knights?

Orbital Bombardment, taking an FOC is stupid and a complaint I have with the current codex. I don't believe intangible assets without a model representing it should be in any army.

The new stormtroopers wouldn't fit in a Grey Knights army, what is that Hotshot lasgun going to do to a daemon? What do they bring to the army? I mean they are the primary deepstrike unit of the IG, but almost every GK can out do them in that regard.

Next, why no Dreadnought? Venerables don't just come out of nowhere, they're suppose to be very old dreadnoughts. If you have no dreadnoughts, then on a fluff basis, GK will never have replacement venerable dreadnoughts.

I'm all for reinventing aspects of the Grey Knights, but giving them "nemesis hammers" and stormshields is just a round about way of making them into normal marines on steroids as opposed to being something more unique.

Why should the purgation team be an elite? If just carrying extra guns make a unit elite, there are alot of misclassified armies.

My only issue with the predator is that it doesn't fit the rapid deployment nature of the Grey Knights. I realize land raiders don't either but GK have Land Raiders as opposed to other vehicles because they are that elite.

Jump packs? For an army that can teleport any of its troops, why would you need jump packs?

Eternal warrior, I understand special characters having it, but why would the grandmaster?

I agree with most of this, that the shield bearers weapons should have the range knocked down to 12", but still assualt 2, I don't at all agree on the melta weapon, get rid. Just keep the weapon options now but add shotguns. BTW do they get an extra attack from las-glaive, shield combo?

I agree with most of the rest, but keep psy bolts as an option, I like all the dreads but not the Acting Bro Cap. Up the ws to 7 on Grand Master and 6 on Bro Cap as they are supposed to be better at combat than SM. No eternal warrior.

I don't like the Nemesis hammers + shields at all, lets keep what they have. I like the psychic powers however.

Keep GK bikes.

No predators or orbital bombardment but update allies rules and have them.

I think I have said it all Out of breath

Why not have a GK baal predator sort of thing

E.g. rather than assault cannon (or whatever the hull mounted weapon is) some sort of psycannon variant (but not rending), and incenerator based big flamer sponsons.

On the Grand master EW subject give him a psychic power that negates EW for daemons. Because he knows how to beat them up, but this power would have no effect on anything thats not a daemon.

Judge Cadmius wrote:
Transports:
I certainly agree. Although rhinos, razorbacks and drop-pods are all useful tools, and in character they would probably make use of them if they had them, I think for the meta-game purpose of setting Grey Knights apart from normal marines, they should not have them. In addition, though, I feel that any use of a transport (especially drop pods) really undercuts the emphasis on they GK's mastery of teleportation. I don't even like land raiders (though, of all the vehicles, I suppose at least they have the super elite, stuff of legends, transport)

I agree with these sentiments. Transports are not things that the GK need when they can teleport wherever they want.

Grandmaster and EW:
I also agree that >if< the Grand Master had Eternal Warrior, it would be more appropriate to make it a reflection of his psykic prowess, rather than how superbadass of a fighter he is. There was discussion of a Grandmaster being better than Calgar, since he can slay the mightiest daemons of the warp, and therefore he should get EW. I disagree - I feel Calgar should be able to lay flat the Grandmaster with his powerfists with no problems. Calgar is a warrior - Grandmaster is a Daemonhunter. Calgar spent his life fighting and pursuing physical perfection - Grandmaster spent his life reading the Grimoire of True Names, developing his anti-daemon psykic powers, and otherwise becoming highly specialist. Calgar is good at killing people, but would probably get killed by a daemon. Daemonhunter excels at banishing daemons, but would have less experience vs normal material world troops.
Calgar > Grandmaster > Daemon (and Daemon would go back to trumping Calgar, like a rock-scissors-paper).

I would have to disagree here. The Grey Knights are trained to be just as good at martial combat as they are against specialized targets like Daemons. They have to fight off CSM, obviously, and occasionally would have to take out renegade SM chapters that have been tainted by Chaos, after all. They may specialize against Daemons, but they're not exclusive to them. They're the most powerful warriors in the Imperium for a reason. A Grand Master would be able to easily trounce Mary Sue Calgar. Not only is the one of the most powerful psykers in the Imperium (if not THE most powerful, aside from the Emperor, obviously), he's using what is supposedly the Emperor's own geneseed, and is equipped with the finest weapons and armour in the Imperium.

Although, I don't care for Eternal Warrior, since it emphasizes sloppy play.

Dreadnoughts:
I also disagree with the whole Dreadnought stuff; they are awesome models, but they're not appropriate by the fluff. Right next to the dreadnought entry it actually states that the Knights would rather die and rest happy-face on Titan, rather than be wired into dreadnought armour. Though, since since that same paragraph does say that occasionally some will choose to live on as man-machine, I think it'd be more appropriate, and flavourful, if there was maybe a special GK character, along the lines of a Radical Daemonhunter (who tends to break the rules, and live unconventionally) that was interred in Dreadnought armour.

This I would have to agree with, so long as enough HS options were given to replace the niche that the Dreadnoughts filled(which when you consider how crappy DH is against armour, is a huge one).

Jetbikes:
I actually love the idea of Jetbikes for Grey Knights. Nothing is more heroic and inspiring than a knight in shining order, borne upon a mighty steed. Since Grey Knights already have the baroque armour, swords, and appearance of medieval knights (more so than standard marines, at least), I think its not too far of a stretch to imagine them with jetbike cavalry, wielding nemesis force lances.

I could see this working, but they'd really have to toy with the look. And I don't want them to be like SM bikes. They should be completely different in that regard.

Inquisitors:
As some have mentioned, I really feel the best way to represent an Inquisitor, is to do him like the IG command squad. The inquisitor should, with the right wargear, be able to take on certain enemies, but otherwise he should just be a regular S3 T3 human. I strongly feel that an Inquisitor's real power lies in his experience, knowledge and resources, rather than his combat prowess. This would best be represented by giving special qualities or weapons to units he joins, such as giving them preferred enemy (his experience and knowledge), or letting them reroll shooting wounds (fluffwise, giving them hellfire rounds, or something - a representation of his resources), or by keeping his retinue of henchmen (another representation of his vast resources), but giving them cool army wide tactical abilities, like the Master of Ordnance, Officer of the Fleet, and Astropath, have.

With CCS and PCS being mainly support squads now, I think that's exactly what GW is going to do with Inquisitors. Well, maybe not orders, but definetly something support oriented. I definetly wouldn't mind seeing this put into play.

Deep Strike
I'd enjoy seeing a CSM Chaos Icon type of item, that allows units deep-striking onto it to move-shoot-assault on the turn they come in. I think it'd really increase the effectiveness of the Grey Knights when they land, and also add a lot of tactical planning with your Icon bearing units - either your Terminators land as normal, and scatter, or they come in on a well positioned scouting type squad, and launch an immediate and devastating attack from there.

This should have been there day one. Grey Knights are the masters of teleportation, as far as the Imperium is concerned. Why they weren't given this ability in the old codex is way beyond me.

Psychic Effigy
Just a thought I had for a psykic power, or at least squad upgrade thats explained using psykic powers. I'll assume squad upgrade in this example:
Psykic effigy would add an additional model to your squad. Its a defensive model that would provide each member in the unit with either an invulnerable save (just a cheap one, like +5), feel no pain, or some other defensive quality (maybe T5).
Whenever wounds are allocated in the squad, wounds must always be allocated first to the effigy (i.e. effigy gets a wound, then you can put wounds on other models). When the effigy dies, the defensive bonus it gave disappears.

I think it would be useful, and a unique addition to a Grey Knights unit. unit It provides a basic amount of protection to a unit, early in the game (especially when they deepstrike), without just going overboard and ALWAYS giving them an invulnerable save, or some other increase.

An "effigy is burned as a sign of the participants' shared intent to banish the represented element from their lives."
The effigy might even be a bound daemon, locked in a temporary psykic shell, forced into a brief and painful existence as a meatshield. The whole "burning the effigy" thing, but using a bound daemon, really gives my radical Daemonhunters side a spark of excitement

Could work, but if it has to be allocated the wound first, it's abilities would always be wasted because it would always die before it actually got to be used.

Orbital fleep support
I love the idea of Orbital Bombardment. What I think would be an interesting Heavy Support choice would be something like "Orbital Fleet" - a swiss army knife choice that represents the additional firepower and resources that a ship orbiting the planet can offer to its ground forces
Options to upgrade it, though, could include a multitude of things such as
Orbital Bombardment: <as normal, with various types>
Teleport Ambush: A scouting unit is teleported into enemy ships or behind enemy lines, to disrupt plans and stall reinforcements. Enemies arriving from reserves have a chance to take some number of wounds, and/or, enemy reserve rolls are taken at a penalty, successful ones rerolled, etc (just some upgrade to interferre with reserves)
Communication Jammers: The ship has filled the airwaves and psykic channels with static interferrences. After deployment, you may reposition some number of enemy units, due to enemy orders being misinterpreted by the troops.
Beam-me-up: You may remove models from the field, as they are teleported back up to the capital ships. This could deny your opponent kill points, or let you regroup the scattered remains of several units, back into one complete unit, and re-deepstrike it at a later point.

Granted, there would be no model for this, I do recall one poster saying they didn't feel satisfied spending points, but not putting a model on the table. Fair point, though personally I like the fact that I have a force organization slot filled up with something hovering in space.

I dunno how well the Orbital Fleet would work, or how well it would be received, but I, like I said, enjoy the idea of using my space cruisers to affect the battle down below

I'd like it. The ability to teleport in and out of battle would give the expensive Grey Knights a reason to spread out, so they could really exercise their abilities without fear of having too few units to get the right objectives.

Fafnir wrote:
Could work, but if it has to be allocated the wound first, it's abilities would always be wasted because it would always die before it actually got to be used.

I just realised that the Tau have some little flying frisbee drone thing that does something similar, that I would be quite happy with.

We need to stop talking fluff, and look at the nitty gritty of 5th ed.

GK without transports are a fail army before even outta the gate. At least Rhinos and RB. I like DP also (but DP are kinda meh anyways).

Also, points. Everything is getting cheaper, and we can see what units are useful based on points. Lets not look at the chaos codex for what is a good 25pt model (noise marines with wpn...cant believe they are 25), and look at lets say space wolves who get grey hunters at 15pts.

I suggest if you kept the current rules of GKPA, I would price them individually at 20pts each, plus lower the cost of the special wpns.

Make the psy-cannon AP 3 also.

Jaric wrote:
We need to stop talking fluff, and look at the nitty gritty of 5th ed.

GK without transports are a fail army before even outta the gate. At least Rhinos and RB. I like DP also (but DP are kinda meh anyways).

Also, points. Everything is getting cheaper, and we can see what units are useful based on points. Lets not look at the chaos codex for what is a good 25pt model (noise marines with wpn...cant believe they are 25), and look at lets say space wolves who get grey hunters at 15pts.

I suggest if you kept the current rules of GKPA, I would price them individually at 20pts each, plus lower the cost of the special wpns.

Make the psy-cannon AP 3 also

The moment we stop looking at fluff, they're no longer Grey Knights, they're Space Marines, Silvery Chapter. Having that been said, I also feel they need some sort of transport. Maybe a much less costly version of a Land Raider, possibly a new tank that is 14 all sides and no guns, or 14 all sides one turret mounted weapon? We could make it be Land Raider Crusader capacity (since it doesn't need internals for powering lascannons) and then give it a TL multimelta or a TL assault cannon on top? Honestly though, I like the idea of them being footsloggers that rely on the ability to teleport around, but they need abilities that represent that. Make them jump infantry and give them a 5+ invul save. The premier chaos demon infantry have power weapons, why would the GK just run around with absolutely zero protection? Besides, if refractor fields are common enough such that IG officers carry them, why on earth couldn't grey knights have some standard issue? They're supposed to be the few and proud, which is reflected in their cost, and I'm fine with having 2/3rd the amount of guys as a space marine player, so long as they're pimped out well enough to feel like they're worth it. I don't like the idea of psy-cannon being AP3, though I understand why you would want it so. I think they'd benefit more from some sort of melta or antitank attack. Combi-storm meltas or something.
Why not look at CSM to determine power level? Khorne berserker, 22 points if memory serves and it'll win combat every time.

Well...if the Grey Knights would have any version of a transport I would say that it would be in the form of the Storm Raven Gunship. Really, the only vehicles in the Army should be Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders and Storm Ravens. The Grey Knights are the Emperor's favorites in every regard. Their gene seed comes from the Emperor himself so that pretty much means whatever they want, they get.

In terms of universal rules, I would say go with the following:

Fearless, Feal No Pain, and MAYBE Preferred Enemy against Daemons. Keep the Shrouding and almost everything else. Also, allow the whole army to Deep Strike as well.

These don't really seem too far off base, especially if you keep their Stats similar to what they have currently.

In terms of what weapons they have, a subtle change that could make a huge difference if giving the Psycannon the following profile:

24" S 6 AP 4 Assault 3

36" S 8 AP 1 Heavy 1,Lance

Both Ignore Invulnerable Saves

The idea of Eternal Warrior being a Psychic Power...I think that should be something that ANY Grey Knight can take. Something to replace one of the useless psychic powers that are listed: For example: Something that does Eternal Warrior for the Squad +20 pts. So on and so fourth, Grey Knight Grand Masters should have Eternal Warrior anyway just for the simple fact that they have survived fighting and banishing hundreds if not thousands of Daemons. Additionally, they aren't just going after the little fish, they would go toe to toe with Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes like a Space Marine Captain would go toe to toe with a Chaos Lord.

I've really been a proponent of psyker power driven abilities, but I don't know if eternal warrior should be thrown around. In practical terms I do think a high price tag would keep that to a minimum. If it effects the whole squad as you suggests and at the price you suggest their really needs to be a down side. Its too much of a game changer, you are effectively negating some of the benefits of heavy weapons. They already have good armor saves and invulnerable saves, I don't think they need to be more survivable in this way.

Just like most of the powers have specific times that they can be used in the current codex. With this respect, it can only be used in Close Combat and cannot be used in 2 consecutive turns. Something similar to the Ymargl Genestealers rules.

I agree with having a lance weapon but I quite like the psycannon as it is,
I was thinking it would probably have to be short range 'if' the teleport around the board was allowed.

Or probably a new weapon

Why would teleporting around the board be allowed? Teleporters take up a lot of space on marine ships and are one way. The Eldar are the only ones to master that type of technology. Unless we're talking another psyker power.

Teleporters take up a GIGANTIC amount of space...

What I could believe is the Terminators or PAGK being teleported back up (as happens in the fluff frequently after purging a planet) and then in a turn or two being able to teleport back down.


It mentions in the Blood Angel's Codex that the Storm Raven was first used by the Grey Knights. It'd be interesting to use that with Grey Knights. Maybe it's even being stuck in the new Inquisition Codex coming out in a few months (And yes it is coming out, I asked the store manager at the Battle Bunker)

aka_mythos wrote:
 Chaplain
 Grey Knight Command Squad
-Amplifies commanders Psychic power

 Daemonhost
-storm bolters equipped with psy-bolts (ignores inv saves).
 Dreadnought
-May take a nemesis force fist
-May take a twinlinked "Heavy" psycannon
-May take a twinlinked "Heavy" Incinerator
 Ironclad Dreadnought
-May take 2 nemesis force fist
-May take a psycannon in place of Meltagun
-Hurricane bolter equipped with psy-bolt (ignores inv saves).
 Venerable Dreadnought
-May take a nemesis force fist
-May take a twinlinked "Heavy" psycannon
-May take a twinlinked "Heavy" Incinerator

 Grey Knights
-storm bolters equipped with psy-bolts (ignores inv saves).
-may pay 35pts to deep strike
 Shield Bearers (Replace Stormtroopers) (10pts)
- Las-Glaive
--Shooting: R24 S3 AP4 Assault 2, Rending
--Close Combat: +1S Rending
-Combat Shield: 5+ Inv Save
-(0-4) Thermic Lance (10-15pts)
-- Shooting: R12 S8 AP1 (Always receives +2d6 Armor Pen)
-- Close Combat: Power Weapon
 Exorcists Marine Contingent (21pts)
- Standard Marine weapons options
- Bolters have psy-bolts (ignores inv saves).
- Demonic Essence (5+ Inv)
- Demonic Speed (roll 2d6, pick highest, for running)

Fast Attack
 Null Pillar
-Drop Pod
-Scrambles deepstriking within 24”
-Daemons become unstable
-Twin-linked Psycannons
 Grey Knight Cataphract (Jet Bikes)
-Stormbolter on Jet bike (instead of arm)
-Storm bolters equipped with psy-bolts (ignores inv saves).
-(0-2) may be upgraded with psycannons or incinerators
 Valkyrie Vengeance
- 2x Vortex Missiles (additional option)
- Door mounted Psy-cannons

Heavy Support
 Grey Knight Purgation Squad
-Add Heavy Incinerator
-Add heavy psycannon
 Land Raider
 Land Raider Crusader
-Hurricane Bolters fires, psy-bolt (ignores inv saves).
 Land Raider Redeemer
 Hellstorm Cannon (Thunderfire Cannon)
- Large ordnance template
- Range 60
- Ignores Inv Saves


I think some of the upgrade options would be replaced with distinctively Grey Knight ones. Such as Land Raiders being able to take "heavy incinerators" in place of a pintle multimelta.

My concept for the "Null Pillar" is its effectively a drop pod turned reliquary that transports a chunck of material identical to what composes the pillars on Cadia that hold back the eye of terror from spreading.

The Excorcists marines are in there as a fluffier alternative to having the "allied" and inducted marine unit options. The Exocrcists being the science experminent of the Grey Knights would easily be seen along side and at their beckon call.

The Cataphract, are Grey Knight jet bikers. They make for what I think is a fluffy way of giving the Grey Knights a single fast attack choice that takes the places of Bikes, Jump Packs, landspeeders all in one unit.

For the stormtroopers, I looked at the unit and their intended function. As they're written in the IG codex I don't believe they'd make much sense along side an army that fights units who are predominantly invulnerable save without much in the way of 3+ saves. Their point cost is too high at that, making them worthless even as cannon fodder. I thought they should be a bit more specific to the daemonhunter cause. Really they're a bit of a place holder, but get the point across.

I don't believe allied units are appropriate in a list meant to emphasize the Grey Knights. For their list to stand on its own, they need to not be dependent on taking allies to deal with non-daemon armies.

So what do you think?

I deleted what I thought was obvious.

You forgot to add that they will get a Storm Raven.

Chaplain...yes...and he will make SW powers look like nothing...as well he should.
A command Squad...would not amplify any kind of psychic power...only the terminators are known to do this.

Grey Knights will not fight alongside a Daemonhost.

Nemesis Fist makes sense from the standpoint that the model pretty much already exists.

Heavy incinerator=flamestorm incinerator

heavy psycannon?...doubt it

new dreads...maybe...I really don't care if there are...they should have the most minor role out there in GK.

All Grey Knights have psy-bolts...whoever came up with this originally is an idiot...because GW will not release a codex that autowins against another codex.

Paying to deepstrike...makes sense...I would prefer to have deep striking knights that can assault that turn.
or Knights that can deepstriek around the board and not count as moving.

The shield bearers are cool...but the knights don't train their own normal humans...all they have for humans are mind wiped crews.

Something would have to be inquisitioned.

Excorsist marines...if they exist...the knights should have to kill these guys first for being demonic...and then go about fighting the enemy

recreating instability...awesome

jetbikes...goodness i hope so...but i doubt it with a passion

more likely to get a thunderhawk than a valkerie

redeemer is happening

hellstorm cannon?....grey knights are not marines...or wolves or angels...they're better than that...they are the elite of the elite...scre copycot tactics

i like the idea of an inquisitor paying for an orbital strike that he can target on a piece of terrain each turn...given LOS

ductvader wrote:
I deleted what I thought was obvious.

You forgot to add that they will get a Storm Raven.
...
more likely to get a thunderhawk than a valkerie

I wrote this a while ago, before anyone knew of the Storm Raven's fluff, or that it even existed. I think the Storm Raven is in the Valkyrie is not.

ductvader wrote:
Chaplain...yes...and he will make SW powers look like nothing...as well he should.
A command Squad...would not amplify any kind of psychic power...only the terminators are known to do this.

I really don't know how the Chaplain and librarian aspect will be worked out. I think that in the GK there would be so much overlap that there would a unique title for the marine that effectively fills both roles.

ductvader wrote:
Grey Knights will not fight alongside a Daemonhost.
...
Excorsist marines...if they exist...the knights should have to kill these guys first for being demonic...and then go about fighting the enemy

I lumped these two together... the GW established fluff for the Exorcist Marines was that they were created by the Grey Knights in an attempt to supplement the GK's forces. That they were successful but with a high burnout rate. Exorcist Marines are marine daemonhosts. If the GK are willing to make and use space marine Daemonhosts, I think they'd be willing to use regular daemonhosts.

Brother Durendin would work as the Librarian esque character.

You literally cannot field Grey Knights and Daemonhosts in the same army. The codex does not allow it.

Seeing as this is the proposed rules forum it doesn't have to follow the current codex.

GW isn't likely to eliminatre any models in a new Grey Knight codex, just re-emphasize it away from inquisition. This means there would likely be some way to field Daemonhost and as such there would be Daemonhost in a Grey Knight army. I was merely explaining a rationale that you could use to justify their presence.

Think grey knight chaplain would be ace.
Sounds very cool and hard in the Greey Knights books so was looking to kit bash one to use as grandmaster but might just wait for a model.

I would like my daemons to have a chance of actually doing something, grey knights do not rip apart daemons apart like cheese, they are trained and given equipment that allows them a good chance of winning by getting rid of daemons advantages. For sake of table top, give them something to disrupt deep striking near them, keep incinerators and psycannons. And instability should stay gone, i would rather my entire army not collapse itself. Hell, grey knights can take land raiders. That right there, is a big middle finger to us daemons :(

Grey Knights are the embodiement of middle finger... they are the Emperor's Middle Finger! (all the other members were taken).

When you need to ram an army down someone's throat and make sure they choke on it...send in the Knights...

GK should change how Daemons play...heck...even make them walk on the board (to represent GKs coming to a pre-existing daemon infestation...

Daemons should have to struggle against GK.

I think the trade off between daemon vs. Grey Knights and how it impacts that combination... should come down to Daemons being instable, but in return get rage and increased numbers of attacks. That would limit daemon's staying power but would really make initial assualts high in volume of attacks. Those high volume of attacks really end up being the biggest weakness of an army with so few total wounds with good saves. The game would boil down to a high paced game of attrition. That seems appropriate for daemons and gk.

aka_mythos wrote:Why would teleporting around the board be allowed? Teleporters take up a lot of space on marine ships and are one way. The Eldar are the only ones to master that type of technology. Unless we're talking another psyker power.

Necrons have also mastered it and the Inquisition are supposed to be on the pinnacle of Imperial technology so I don't see why you couldn't do this but I would incur some sort of penalty on it.

Think grey knight chaplain would be ace.
Sounds very cool and hard in the Greey Knights books so was looking to kit bash one to use as grandmaster but might just wait for a model.

I absolutely agree this would be a great idea.

Well...if the Grey Knights would have any version of a transport I would say that it would be in the form of the Storm Raven Gunship. Really, the only vehicles in the Army should be Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders and Storm Ravens. The Grey Knights are the Emperor's favorites in every regard. Their gene seed comes from the Emperor himself so that pretty much means whatever they want, they get.

In terms of universal rules, I would say go with the following:

Fearless, Feal No Pain, and MAYBE Preferred Enemy against Daemons. Keep the Shrouding and almost everything else. Also, allow the whole army to Deep Strike as well.

These don't really seem too far off base, especially if you keep their Stats similar to what they have currently.

In terms of what weapons they have, a subtle change that could make a huge difference if giving the Psycannon the following profile:

24" S 6 AP 4 Assault 3

36" S 8 AP 1 Heavy 1,Lance

Both Ignore Invulnerable Saves

The idea of Eternal Warrior being a Psychic Power...I think that should be something that ANY Grey Knight can take. Something to replace one of the useless psychic powers that are listed: For example: Something that does Eternal Warrior for the Squad +20 pts. So on and so fourth, Grey Knight Grand Masters should have Eternal Warrior anyway just for the simple fact that they have survived fighting and banishing hundreds if not thousands of Daemons. Additionally, they aren't just going after the little fish, they would go toe to toe with Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes like a Space Marine Captain would go toe to toe with a Chaos Lord.

I like those special rules but get rid of feel no pain. Also keep the Psycannon the way it is. And make the Grand Master have eternal warrior and WS6 plus I6.

I would personally like to keep the Nemesis Force weapon the way it is but a Flamestorm Incinerator would be cool.

EDIT: The Blood Angels will not share the designs of the Stormraven or Baal Predator to ANYONE.

phantommaster wrote:The Blood Angels will not share the designs of the Stormraven or Baal Predator to ANYONE.

True. Too bad that the Grey Knights invented them .

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

phantommaster wrote:The Blood Angels will not share the designs of the Stormraven or Baal Predator to ANYONE.

True. Too bad that the Grey Knights invented them .

Haha...read the BA Dex...goodness...

Codex says Stormraven used almost exclusivly by grey knights and blood angels.
Baal Predator and its design are BA exclusives as they keep the STC away from everyone.

Unholy_Martyr wrote: Feal No Pain

An entire army with FNP? That would be way too overpowered. Maybe as an expensive upgrade, but not just a standard Unniversal Special Rule.

I think, technically speaking, there are two armies already with FNP across the board: Nurgle & Blood Angels.

I don't want Grey Knights to be broken, but in light of some of the more recent Codices, I think it will be hard to make them reach the point where we all say "now that's just silly" when compared point-for-point.