15694
Post by: tigonesskay
I was wondering if the races of 40k were to invade earth today how would our military hold up?
US army vs orks- As far as missiles tanks and weapons we got the orks beat. In hand to hand combat we're pretty much screwed. A bayonet attached to an M-16 might not do
much to a who mob of Orks. The Seals and the speical forces might be used for scouting missions killing Leader orks to bring their morale down.
....Vs. Tau-It could go 50-50. A fight with them might end in a draw forcing the tau to come to a peace agreement with earth.
....Vs 'Nids we will be deep in...  We will end up using nuclear weapons and even if we somehow win we will have all of the fallout to worry about...
.....Vs. Dark eldar. They might not be strong enough for a full scale invasion but with so many wars going on they sneak in during the chaos and snatch up some people up to use as slaves.
.....Vs. Necrons It'll be a long hard fight but if all of the armies of the world come together we might beat them if they are a small force. If the force necrons are legion sized....
21841
Post by: despoiler52
We are screwed against any of them. The fact alone that they can be in space means they have us beat. Orbital bombardment FTW, or in our case for the lose.Even though orks tech seems crappy, how whould we combat kustom force fields and Great gargants? There is also the numbers game, we have one world, they have thousands if not milliond each. Their armed forces whould outnumber our population. Most likely thing to happen is that they fire a salvo of missiles as they fly past, then watch the fireworks millions of killometres away from us.
11029
Post by: Ketara
I just read the first few pages of the anti-Imperium, and it falls basically into two groups.
-People going, 'OMG, terminators, orbital bombardments, and drop pods own us, the entire world would collapse so fast'.
-and the people who actually know something about weapons and scale saying, 'lolwut? There's only a 1000 marines in a chapter, and the world is a very big place. Not only that, our weapons aren't as bad as you think. Good luck marines, you'll need it'.
Versus any faction in 40K altogether, we lose. We're one world against many. However, if you phrase the question better, like Kid_Kyoto did in his thread, you should get a more coherent and worthwhile response.
518
Post by: Kid_Kyoto
When I started the Earth vs Imperium thread I deliberatly put us against just one Chapter because, yeah, all of the factions have effectively infinite resources to throw at Earth.
The big question is whether we're fighting to surrender or death and if they want to capture our world or kill it.
Anyone who can get into orbit could kill the world with some asteroids. Capturing it realtively intact is harder but a lot comes down to the fuzzy question of how long we would fight.
If an attacker nukes a few cities and makes it clear they can nuke the rest would we fight or surrender?
It would probably end organized resistance but partisans would keep up the fight. The invaders however could turn humans against each other with a collective punishment strategy. We will destroy 1 city for every ork/marine/guardsman etc killed. That would make the partisans unpopular real fast.
11
Post by: ph34r
Basically all you need to know is a SM company in the 40k fluff is said to be able to bring a world to its knees, a world equipped with powerful las-weapons and 40k tech vehicles and technologies. A world with our technological level and population would therefore not stand a chance. We aren't super-special-awesome enough to somehow stand up against a force that an average imperial world that is more advanced than us crumbles to.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ketara wrote:I just read the first few pages of the anti-Imperium, and it falls basically into two groups.
-People going, 'OMG, terminators, orbital bombardments, and drop pods own us, the entire world would collapse so fast'.
-and the people who actually know something about weapons and scale saying, 'lolwut? There's only a 1000 marines in a chapter, and the world is a very big place. Not only that, our weapons aren't as bad as you think. Good luck marines, you'll need it'.
Versus any faction in 40K altogether, we lose. We're one world against many. However, if you phrase the question better, like Kid_Kyoto did in his thread, you should get a more coherent and worthwhile response.
I like how you so cleverly imply that anyone who believes other than you is "incoherent" and not "worthwhile", liable to OMGWTFBBQ.
In any case, you are incorrect in your views, as I have stated previously in my post. Don't try to compare space marines to modern day, compare modern day to the imperial guard whose ass the SM kick on a daily basis. IG > us in equal numbers, SM > IG even when outnumbered greatly, therefore SM > us.
23446
Post by: Rewision
ph34r wrote:IG > us in equal numbers, SM > IG even when outnumbered greatly, therefore SM > us.
Except that our communication works, we don't win battles by sending troops wave after wave after wave to get killed and we outnumber them by big 'nuff number so that they eventually run out of ammo, so we can just wear them down.
11
Post by: ph34r
Rewision wrote:ph34r wrote:IG > us in equal numbers, SM > IG even when outnumbered greatly, therefore SM > us.
Except that our communication works, we don't win battles by sending troops wave after wave after wave to get killed and we outnumber them by big 'nuff number so that they eventually run out of ammo, so we can just wear them down.
Planetary communication on 40k planets works. Why would you think that it does not?
40k fluff is diverse enough to encompass IG armies other than the stereotypical valhallan style "human waves". Many IG regiments utilize tactics not so different than what we use today, they just have superior equipment and technology.
23446
Post by: Rewision
Judging from the speed at which the imperium reacts to threats it doesn't :l
22234
Post by: TheTrueProtoman
I really think that the Space marines would win, but that's my opinion. Even if it was a world threat you have to factor in who would do what, and what we are equipped with. Considering that the imperial guard at least within the regiments they describe such as Catachans, they are on a death world and the population that does survive is far superior to us as is. As the way that I view it Space marines wouldn't just through the bulk at us in one spot, they would have a plan, and probably follow through with it.
11029
Post by: Ketara
Don't try to compare space marines to modern day
Errr......That's kind of the matchup here, not Guard vs Marines.
Let's put this in perspective. 1000 Marines. 6.5 billion people. Do you know how big this planet is? Big enough for 1000 marines to get lost on the surface quite easily. Orbital bombardment? They'd run out of torpedoes to drop before they hit anywhere near enough targets to cause the collapse of the USA. I could go into a tremendous amount of detail here, but I simply cannot be bothered. Modern warfare has grown so destructive that even a bunch of futuristic space marines wouldn't last long. It might take a bazooka hit to kill a marine, but there are a lot of bazookas in existence, and even more people to wield them. A lot more than a 1000.
And I don't understand what you mean by your 'previous post', as this is your first post in this thread.
518
Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Ketara wrote:Don't try to compare space marines to modern day
Errr......That's kind of the matchup here, not Guard vs Marines.
Let's put this in perspective. 1000 Marines. 6.5 billion people. Do you know how big this planet is? Big enough for 1000 marines to get lost on the surface quite easily. Orbital bombardment? They'd run out of torpedoes to drop before they hit anywhere near enough targets to cause the collapse of the USA. I could go into a tremendous amount of detail here, but I simply cannot be bothered. Modern warfare has grown so destructive that even a bunch of futuristic space marines wouldn't last long. It might take a bazooka hit to kill a marine, but there are a lot of bazookas in existence, and even more people to wield them. A lot more than a 1000.
And I don't understand what you mean by your 'previous post', as this is your first post in this thread.
Again it all comes down to will to fight.
In WWII the Japanese were willing to launch suicide attacks to stop American soldiers but after two nuclear strikes they surrendered pretty peacefully.
A battle barge in orbit could burn a city a day until we surrender and we would have nothing they could not shoot down before it hit them. How long would the governments of Earth fight against a threat like that? how long would people put up with it? What if they just target and sink every tanker in the ocean, and sever every oil pipeline? How long can we fight with nothing but the fuel in our tanks?
Marines might hit the surface a few times in the beginning to kidnap world leaders like Obama, Hu Jintao, the Pope and Britney Spears but after that they can just bomb us from orbit will we give up.
So like I said, it would be an interesting fight, I think it would be a great BL novel if it was Marines vs a thinly-veiled 21st C Earth.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
Me too. It would make a pretty cool story.
Ultimately though, I think that demonstration of power would quickly quell any single organized resistance.
The real rough stuff would come when it's time to decide who is put into power. Other countries wouldn't accept a world leader from ANY country. (So Obama as Planetary Governer is a bit off). And if an off-world planetary governer was put in power, then the trouble starts as the marines that were keeping the populace in check leave.
Suddenly, the guardsmen that are garrisoning the world don't look too scary.
BTW, 40kenthusiast had it right.
11029
Post by: Ketara
Sink every tanker? I have a feeling they'd run out of ammunition first. And how do they know which ships are carrying petroleum products? And if they waste all their time trying to pick off boats, how on earth would they have time to attack cities? Not to mention the fact that you're assuming they'd immediately jump to the conclusion we were so vulnerable to a lack of petroleum by-products. Ignoring the fact that we'd still have enough petroleum reserves built up in our various countries to get us by for at least a month. And assuming they're only going after nations incapable of transporting petroleum products overland. And ignoring the fact that from orbit they'd only be capable of targeting a very small portion of the worlds surface at any one time.
It's very easy to just say that they'd be able to wipe out our oil supply, but as you can see, there are a myriad of problems with just that one task.
Not to mention the continuous referral to an 'us'. The world is not under a collective government. Are they planning on making overtures to over a hundred countries at once? Are they intending on seriously attempting to subjugate over a hundred countries with only a 1000 men? How are the going to get them everywhere? The worlds a very big place. Even if you only deploy them in squads, that means you have to run a maximum of about 100 ground missions at a time. But if you split your men up to that degree, what happens if they run into tanks? If you intend to be deploying and retrieving them all simultaneously, where is your transport capability coming from? A handful of thunderhawks isn't big enough to cover 100 teams spread across the globe. Not to mention the risk of thunderhawks getting shot down and rendering you incapable of shifting your men where you want them to be. Teleportation? Not only do you run the risk of sticking your men halfway through a rock, that means you limit yourself to the equipment that is man-portable. No tanks.
Kidnapping world leaders? How will they locate them? I know that a good portion of them will be hiding in top secret bunkers if there was an alien offensive. And how does kidnapping a leader indicate the subjugation of a country? Isn't it more likely the next in command will just take over?
Orbital Bombardment? Sure. How many torpedos did you bring? There are a lot of cities in the world, and you're not going to be restocking missiles any time soon in this galaxy. What about return fire? You assume we don't have the capability to swat a ship out of orbit, but how long will it be before we lack that capability? How long before the various militaries stick as many nukes on missiles as they can and shoot them in endless waves? If you're spending your time swatting enemy missiles out of the air, how are you spending your time blowing up cities?
At the end of the day, no matter how superhuman you are, it comes down to logistics. 1000 men do not have the logistics to conquer the world.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
Facing an utterly alien foe would be different. Even with massive city-wide destruction, humanity may not be so quick to surrender becuase it's simply not an option. (I'm sure a country or two would try, and the rest of the world would see that whether or not we wave a white flag, the Ork, 'Nids and some Eldar want us dead.)
What would be REALLY interesting is Chaos coming to a 2k world. They're definitely evil looking, so many (all) religeous cultures would resist) but they're also human. (so death is not definite) And besides, some people would like what Chaos has to offer.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Ketara: You're assuming that the Marines NEED to spread thier forces. If they were to devastate each country (USA first, cos that would mean that the rest of the world is in the s****er) then wouldn't it be much more likely that the other countries start listening to the SM demands?
And also, you talk of the world not being a collective government as if that's a good thing. It's not. That means pretty much that every country is on it's own. It means that the world will already be divided as to whether or not seccede to the Space Marine demands. It means no co-ordination of missle strike. It means that each country will be own it's own, becuase the others can't afford to risk leaving thier own areas undefended when the foe can strike so quickly.
19343
Post by: Orkfantic
If the destruction of the planet wasnt a question, they might just launch the Life Eater. I mean killing a planet dosnt always seem like a big deal to the mariens. If taking it was needed, we be hard pressed but nocking of thier comanders could be the key. A few sniper rounds through the eye piece tends to kill stuff. And the amount of ammo a single chapter would need for one egagment that big would be emmense and they have no way to restock.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
Exterminatus is only done in the most extreme of circumstances. A mere rebel world would not advotcate the use of such a weapon.
Kinda like killing a fly with a Rocket-Propelled chainsaw.
11029
Post by: Ketara
You say every country will be on its own. That means that there can be no collective surrender. It means that if one country goes under, others keep on fighting. It means you don't have to abduct one leader, you have to abduct a hundred. It means you're not just fighting one military, but many. It means that when negotiations start initially, you have to learn the languages of every single people. It means that when it comes to intelligence, there isn't just set of codes you have to crack, it's hundreds.
Ever heard of Nato? I don't think every country is on its own. And I have a feeling if aliens started shooting missiles out of space, the russians wouldn't just sit back and take it.
You speak of leaving areas undefended, but how many places can the marines strike? The Marines have no ability as an occupation force, and no ability to force through a continuous peace. The second they leave a country that says they've surrendered, that country can immediately go back to war withthem. They have no intelligance network, so they have no idea what the industrial capabilities of a nation are.
If we were talking about a crusade, it would be fine. But 1000 marines lacks the logistical capability to conduct an offensive against an entire planet. All it takes is 1000 guys with bazookas getting lucky. Every marine taken down chips away at their ability to make an offensive. Every bolter shell shot by them cannot be replaced. Eventually, they'd be down to their bare fists.
I am assumign here we are speaking of subjugation and occupation. Orbital bombardment has some destructive possibilities. But that is not occupation and subjugation, that's just destruction. One space ship would not be capable of bringing a planet to it's knees, and gives them no ability to enforce their will if the population refuses to yield.
There was an excellent mock reality series by an author called Harry Turtledove, which involved a much more technologically advanced species attempting to conquer earth. It's an excellent example here I feel. I would recommend reading them, as they are very good novels .
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
You're assuming that every goverment would want to fight to the end. That's just silly. A populace would swiftly surrender when they see a city or two annihlated. Why do you feel that this would not happen? They'd be more willing to surrender to Space Marines than orks, for example.
BTW, marines wouldn't bother with occupation. A fleet of zealots, magistrates and other Imperial officials (as well as IG) would be in the wings waiting for the go sign.
The marines job is just to subue and pacify. When one ignores the damage partisans would do on the occupiers (not Space Marines) then the damage is minimal.
Also, ammo is not an issue. The marines can wait. They've fought 100-year campaigns before. They have all the time in the world. They can wait for the steady stream of supplies, and probably new SM initiates. We aren't going anywhere. (Not that the campaign would take that long. I imagine it would be a matter of months if not weeks before our capitulation).
11029
Post by: Ketara
We're talking about a single space marine chapter here. With whatever they can bring with them. So no new supplies and initiates. What gets expended, stays expended. What gets killed, stays dead. And to be perfectly honest, even if you include a spaceship of pen-pushers, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't last long in a country that doesn't want them there. They're not soldiers after all.
I'm not assuming every government would fight to the end. I'm pretty sure Robert Mugabe would quickly capitulate. But any nation with any kind of offensive capability would not go under so quickly.
Marines can subdue. They cannot pacify. And in this hypothetical situation, they only control the ground they stand on.
Okay. Indianopolis gets nuked from orbit by aliens demanding the immediate surrender of the US. Do they surrender? I highly highly doubt it. I have a feeling the immediate response would be 50 odd ICBM's heading straight for the alien spaceship.
Again I repeat: 1000 Marines cannot occupy a planet. It is too big. It is logistically impossible. They do not have enough men. They do not have enough supplies. And to be perfectly frank, I doubt the Space Marine's ship is capable of warding off the multiple nuclear attacks it would shortly be suffering. Some perhaps. But if 500 missiles come roaring at you, you're pretty screwed. Not to mention all the new anti-missile defence missiles that have been developed recently, such as the Russian RS-24.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
Ketara wrote:We're talking about a single space marine chapter here. With whatever they can bring with them. So no new supplies and initiates. What gets expended, stays expended. What gets killed, stays dead. And to be perfectly honest, even if you include a spaceship of pen-pushers, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't last long in a country that doesn't want them there. They're not soldiers after all.
Why are you assuming that the Marines are without support?  It's not like their supply lines have been cut by the ninja-astronuats that are floating around the 2k world. I'm not assuming every government would fight to the end. I'm pretty sure Robert Mugabe would quickly capitulate. But any nation with any kind of offensive capability would not go under so quickly.
Marines can subdue. They cannot pacify. And in this hypothetical situation, they only control the ground they stand on.
Marines, as a fighting force, are not designed to pacify. They destroy the heaviest resistance before moving on. Letting the Guard mop up after them. So why would the US or Nato not surrender if given the option. Okay. Indianopolis gets nuked from orbit by superhumans demanding the immediate surrender of the US. Do they surrender? Straight away. They don't want to die. They might try luanching 50 odd ICBM's heading straight for the superhuman spaceship first though. Which would do nothing. And then the Space Marines just blow up another planet.
Fixed that for you.  Remember, the Marines can pick and choose their battle. They don't have to fight anywhere they don't want to. Also, the sattelites and everything up in the sky would simply mean open range shooting for the Stike Cruisers (Yes there ARE more than one of these in a single chapter). You can't rely on those. Serious question: How would the orbiting ship be targetted? Can nukes even reach into space like that with much accuracy?
6454
Post by: Cryonicleech
Why do these 40k vs Whatever the hell threads keep popping up?
Anywhoo. 1,000 marines CAN occupy a planet. If an ENTIRE CHAPTER is 1,000 marines strong, why is it that those with Homeworlds can still occupy them whilst continuing their assaults.
Yes, we would not go down right away. But to paint it as some kind of vainglorious fight to the last is stupid. We're screwed. Period.
And why can't they bring anything? Even if they couldn't, they'd still have the 10th company initiates.
Ok, Indianapolis gets nuked. At the same time the ENTIRE CHAPTER FLEET (Because we are talking an entire chapter, fleets and all) is nuking other key locations whilst Battle brothers are deployed down to capture and kill all resistance.
If marines could not pacify, then why the hell was the Great Crusade so successful, when it did just that? Sure, Whorus betrays Emprah and yadda yadda, but he succeeded in creating a lasting Imperium, which required the Space Marines to actively subdue AND pacify.
20971
Post by: Zason
Think of it this way: the Ultramarines First Company fended off a ENTIRE HIVE FLEET.
That's only 100 Marines.
Plus we don't even have enough guns to arm half the world, let alone arm them with something that can actually penetrate POWER ARMOR.
Not to even mention Terminator Armor which can shrug off a MISSILE
21946
Post by: ZacktheChaosChild
The Earth= Gone.
Billions of worlds and things that can kill us vs. one world with 6 billion people total, the number of able-body combatants much less than that, and among those some hate each other, and don't fight for the same views and morals.
The Earth= Gone.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
@Ketara: Against a completely alien foe that only wants our annihilation, it may be different.
But against a human-like foe who is offering terms (not that unreasonable terms either) people are more likely to surrender.
3502
Post by: Rubberanvil
ZacktheChaosChild wrote:The Earth= Gone.
Billions of worlds and things that can kill us vs. one world with 6 billion people total, the number of able-body combatants much less than that, and among those some hate each other, and don't fight for the same views and morals.
The Earth= Gone.
Hell, the space marines almost don 't have to do anything, as the governments and people will divide, quarrel and war among them selves just from the first wide scale undeniable appearance of the imperial fleet in orbit. Think of the U.S. and the world's reaction to 9/11 or any other horrible event with a massive loss of life and multiple that by a couple fold.
14291
Post by: kill dem stunties
ketara, as for the whole sinking tankers, they have insanely advanced scanning tech that could easily pinpoint in real time the loction of every ship on the ocean ... and they dont need to waste torpedos when they can just use the lances, i.e those insanely huge pewpew lasers powered by the fusion reaction that never dies out in the ships plasma core?
... we could be undone almost instantly, not to mention launch all those nukes .... 40k ships have that crazy thing known as shielding tech, and i doubt that they wouldnt be able to handle some tiny atomic weapon from 38000 years ago lol .... afterall they keep a sustained reaction i guarantee is MUCH mroe powerful than anything we could launch at them inside of their ship 
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
On the other hand...we do have Chuck Norris.  
20700
Post by: IvanTih
If the marines had no orbital support or ships then I would just nuke them.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
Do we look like we have orbital support or ships???
20700
Post by: IvanTih
Emperors Faithful wrote:Do we look like we have orbital support or ships???
Yes.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
Really?
I find this most interesting. *skeptical look*
6454
Post by: Cryonicleech
No no no, what we should do is feign welcoming, and then in secret, shoot a rocketship containing a reincarnated Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris and Mr T.
We sit back, and enjoy ourselves.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
We must not forget to make the popcorn.
Of course, this is us simply hoping that these almighty figures feel like bashing in some Space Marines rather than us. 
9711
Post by: Morgrim
I think one point about space marines taking entire planets is that not all planets are equal. A world like Vraks with only one large central settlement (although defended insanely well) is simpler to take than a well populated homeworld. The more defused the world, the more challenging it is going to be. The greater the variety of terrain, the harder. Basically, the 'core' worlds of a race/system are going to be more challenging than a mere settlement. Earth would require significant IG backup to take and hold areas. The SM would be key strikes against important areas, likely those where the resistance is centering.
As for the death planet: Australia is a death continent. We even have lethal stinging trees. 
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
And we have the perfect ambush system.
11834
Post by: Superscope
Emperors Faithful wrote:And we have the perfect ambush system.
IT IS FOOLPROOF! quickly comrades, arm these systems in the ten's of thousands!
21841
Post by: despoiler52
Rewision wrote:ph34r wrote:IG > us in equal numbers, SM > IG even when outnumbered greatly, therefore SM > us.
Except that our communication works, we don't win battles by sending troops wave after wave after wave to get killed and we outnumber them by big 'nuff number so that they eventually run out of ammo, so we can just wear them down.
Hmmmmmmm. I think you should read some historical recounts of our large scale wars, Pasheandal anybody? The soviet union basicaly did exactly that. 40k is inaccurate in many many ways, but sadly some of their tactics are used in the real world. Black library did use some reductum adubsterdum, but the principal is that same. Also it has often been suggested that earth would capitulate, that is totaly right. It seems that 40k armies all fight till they're all dead. Wilst we do not. To decimate ones army is considered a big defeat, and yet this is only 10% dead. And ya, nuking them is not really an option, beacuse they are attacking us on out planet, no matter how crazy people are, they will not think that nuking our own cities will win us this war. This war would have almost nothing to do with infantry or even tanks, they are just on another level of technology then us, it's like a pre-gunpowder society fighting tanks. Sure they could sorta compete, but really it's not even remotely fair. Basicaly warship>our combined technology. Also Emperors Faithful, that is totaly and completly awsome, they would never expect it.
15694
Post by: tigonesskay
The SM wouldn't be able to hold earth. People could flee to the isolated parts of the world. There are alot of groups and world governements who can't stand when the U.S. get involved in their affairs let alone some SM. This is the sort of thing that might cause people to put aside their differences temperiorly and unite together. The SM wouldn't want to waste resourances on one planet when there are aliens and the forces of chaos out there.
221
Post by: Frazzled
Emperors Faithful wrote:@Ketara: Against a completely alien foe that only wants our annihilation, it may be different.
But against a human-like foe who is offering terms (not that unreasonable terms either) people are more likely to surrender.
Russia didn't surrender even though tens of millions died. Same for China.
Japan and Germany surrenedered only because we had beaten them into the ground. Germany only really surrendered because we invaded.
Fun tidbits
*Vietnam didn't surrender. They won.
*Every punk with $50 has an RPG in Somalia.
*These arguments inevitably revolve around orbital bombardment. Its never the fluffy prowess of marines. Its their ships. Moral of the story-marines are irrelevant, only the ships matter.
*Try the argu ent of ork roks crash landingon earth, which is their style. they don't have orbital bombardment, just the green tide. Who wins then?
13250
Post by: Lord of battles
V.S Green Tide=We are SCREWED!!!
21841
Post by: despoiler52
There is no reason why the space marines would just drop in and start fighting. They obviously have a running knowledge of tactics, they would pound us into submision, then come in and broker peace, or call for extermination. If we were fighting IG, then so help us, cuse you know what they have? CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!
221
Post by: Frazzled
Only you Brits. My Louisiana relatives would have ten different ork recipes within hours. Green Tide vs. Redneck Breakwater...
After all, orks are just truffles that got uppity. 
21841
Post by: despoiler52
Frazzled wrote:Only you Brits. My Louisiana relatives would have ten different ork recipes within hours. Green Tide vs. Redneck Breakwater...
After all, orks are just truffles that got uppity.
Try explaining that to an ork. See how it goes. Anyways we would be so unprepared for gargants, KFF, SAG, and roks. How would we react to SAG?
6454
Post by: Cryonicleech
Uppity green truffles then.
I would expect something more like "Green-Man Pie"
(shudders)
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
Frazzled wrote:Emperors Faithful wrote:@Ketara: Against a completely alien foe that only wants our annihilation, it may be different.
But against a human-like foe who is offering terms (not that unreasonable terms either) people are more likely to surrender.
Russia didn't surrender even though tens of millions died. Same for China.
Japan and Germany surrenedered only because we had beaten them into the ground. Germany only really surrendered because we invaded.
So you're saying that the average sane country would not capitulate?
I mean, maybe North Korea and some other crazy countrie (State of Texas) but for the most part when nations have a way out that doesn't involve a fight to the death that they will lose, they will pick surrender. I'm not saying that all manner of resisitance groups wouldn't sprout up, but entire functioning countries would throw themselves against this new foe.
22104
Post by: Bramnero
for a start I want to say, it would 40k versus 3K! not 2k unless you wanna be fighting with muskets, bows and arrows and spears. Also, I'm going to just admit that we'd be screwed:
1. Space marines maybe a chance if its only one chapter
2. Orks, we don't have a chance
3. Tau, you think we'd go alright but really Tau are just humans with extremely long range guns
4. Dark Eldar, probably be alright
5. Eldar, I'd like to see you go up against a wraithlord
6. Tyranids, we're gone
7. Imperial guard are humans with bigger explosions, so we're gone
8. Chaos, we're gone, humans are too easily scared to go up against demons and massed cultists
Automatically Appended Next Post:
9. Necrons, we're screwed
Automatically Appended Next Post:
excuse me, I meant 41K
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah, I take that back, Space Marines?: we're gone
11
Post by: ph34r
It's 40k vs 2k, not the 40th millennium vs the 2nd, which should be 41st vs 3rd. The thread title is correct as is.
22958
Post by: Einhänder
I find it interesting that no one in this thread considered the fact that Tau have Battlesuits, us fighting one would be just like the battle scene at the end of District 9 if anyone has seen the movie, and let me tell you, Tau love their battlesuits. 
5810
Post by: MIKEtheMERCILESS
To throw my £0.02/$0.02 into the melting pot, I don't think we'd stand a chance - for these reasons:
1) Most arguments that are given regarding the current World's armies being better equipped and trained with better tactics etc. are looking at the tabletop representation of the 40k world, and not the fluff. They do employ sophisticated tactics, arguablly much more advanced than ours - with the amount of wars fought since 2k, they've had time to perfect it. The average guardsman is better trained, meaner, and a lot harder than your average soldier.
2) As people have already mentioned, you can take out Marines with Sabor Rounds/RPGs etc. Well probably not. Power Armour is made of a fictisous material, so there is a creative lisence on how impervious it is. Similarly, the fluff clearly shows Marines do not have an issue with the much more advanced anti-tank weaponary of the Guard; in Gaunts Ghosts, in mentions in battle about entire companies (is that right?) being re-deployed or diverted because of the presence of a Marine/Chaos Marine. Does this mean the weapons can't pierce their armour? Perhaps their reflexes, vision and aim are so super human, no one, no matter how well concealed they think they are, can actually get a shot off.
3) Quite an important one this: All of our weapons, all of our technology, and all of our tactics and strategies are exclusively for fighting a war against an enemy from another location on Earth. Hell, even our air based weaponry and tactics are less than a Century old! In all cases, we'll be up against an enemy for who orbital assault is common, and have been doing it for a longer than recorded Civilisation on Earth.
This is like a debate between carribean island natives on whether Colonial soldiers can defeat them and their spears; just before the Warships destroy them from the coast. If they did attack us, our top secret nuculear installations would be neutralised before we even knew there was a threat, and orbital bombardments/titans/etc. would take care of any cohesive fighting formation, Astartes would cut the head off any military organisation, and the innumerous regiments of Guard will take care of the rest.
If it's Orks, well, perhaps we could win if the force attacking us was very small compared to our forces; but then we'd have the problem with a nigh-permanent Ork presence due to spores etc.
221
Post by: Frazzled
Not sure what fluff you're referring to. The fluff I've read for Orks and humies would make Napoleon cry. "Everybody charge!" hasn't worked since Waterloo. Ask Pickett.
15248
Post by: Eldar Own
I dont think we'd stand a chanche against any of them.
But why would they bother invading Earth? The planets heating up (it would be awfully sweaty in terminator suits) and we're running out of resources. Though i suppose the 'nids might have use for us.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
So it would go something like this...
9599
Post by: incarna
tigonesskay wrote:I was wondering if the races of 40k were to invade earth today how would our military hold up?
tigonesskay wrote:US army vs orks- As far as missiles tanks and weapons we got the orks beat. In hand to hand combat we're pretty much screwed. A bayonet attached to an M-16 might not do
much to a who mob of Orks. The Seals and the speical forces might be used for scouting missions killing Leader orks to bring their morale down.
I think an Ork invasion would not last long against the modern armed forces of the earth. Yeah, they’re tough, but our air superiority would be brutal. In the real world, surgical snipers can take out Nobs and War Bosses from about a mile away and don’t have to deal with silly wound allocation issues – while the orks were brawling amongst one another to determine who the next big boss would be, we’d carpet bomb them into vapor and send in armored humvees and tanks to clean up the rest. The spores would no doubt be a long0standing issue to deal with until we develop an herbicide to finish them off.
tigonesskay wrote:....Vs. Tau-It could go 50-50. A fight with them might end in a draw forcing the tau to come to a peace agreement with earth.
The range of even a railgun to scale is pathetic in comparison to the range of the weapons on even a 50-year-old naval vessel. Face to face with a modern super-carrier battle-group, Tau don’t stand a chance. As with orks, surgical snipers would make short work of the Etherials and the command structure would crumble.
tigonesskay wrote:....Vs 'Nids we will be deep in... We will end up using nuclear weapons and even if we somehow win we will have all of the fallout to worry about...
Nids would be a serious issue I think. Infiltration of “hive” New York or any “hive” in China or India by genestealers would be challenging to deal with. I still think we would win though – depending on the size of the hive fleet, because the movement rules in 40k make no sense. An APC can move WAY WAY WAY faster than a Rhino or Chimera that, as per the rules, can only move about as fast as someone can sprint. The various MC’s would just have a hard time cracking our transports. Tyranid air combat would be deadly, but all modern aviation can outmaneuver nearly any biological organism in existence.
tigonesskay wrote:.....Vs. Dark eldar. They might not be strong enough for a full scale invasion but with so many wars going on they sneak in during the chaos and snatch up some people up to use as slaves.
Dark Eldar – eh, their raids would be fast but not significant enough to cause severe issue. If they were smart they’d raid a 3rd world country ill-equipped to deal with the threat. If they’re stupid they’ll go after a modern civilization which will suffer a raid or two before developing a contingency plan for their next raid and wiping them off the face of the earth.
tigonesskay wrote:.....Vs. Necrons It'll be a long hard fight but if all of the armies of the world come together we might beat them if they are a small force. If the force necrons are legion sized....
Necrons might be trouble… there’s no precedent for how EMP’s function against Necrons but, if they’re effective the conflict will last about 30 seconds.
6454
Post by: Cryonicleech
Wait wait wait.
Orks are much, much tougher than humans. If a damn bolter cannot kill an Ork with 1 shot, then how do our weapons suddenly do more? Also, since when did they not have any sort of air support? Roks falling from the sky, hordes of Fightas and Fighta-Bommas filling the air with choking black fumes? Yeah, I don't think so.
Railgun range pathetic? If humanity's FINEST 41st Millenium Anti-Tank weapon can outrange a 50 year old naval vessel, a Railgun will certainly outrange us, with enough punch to break open a damn Land Raider, the toughest vehicle known to man (Not including Apocalypse sized monstrosities)
Dark Eldar we would have serious problems with. If we can't even deal with our OWN raiders (I.E. Terrorists) then we stand NO chance against raiders who have perfected their craft for thousands of years.
Call it fanboyism, but we are screwed against ANY 40k race. Why? It's the 41st Milennium for pete's sake, and Humanity with all its advances is STILL struggling with these other races.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
DE wouldn't be stupid enough to attack the same target twice, and if they did the job right they would strike in the dark and humanity would never be able to fully comprehend exactly what they are facing.
From a tabletop point of view, I'd say a Railguns range sucked. But that's for a game that needs balance. According to fluff the ranged weaponry of Tau is ridicullously OTT. Cruisers and even Carriers could be annihilate in a single (or a couple of) firect hits. And then they have Manta Rays and other pieces of Orbital Support.
Anyway, my point is that all these races have mastery in an area that we humans have yet to expand into. Space Combat. Us fighting them would be akin to two countries fighting eachother, but one having complete air superiority the whole time. There's no way we can retaliate against that kind of threat.
And Ork invasion would be interesting to say the least, becuase if the land via Roks they will little in the way of air support. Which puts us on a much more even footing. However, spores would be a v ery real threat, as even the Imperium has not been able to come up with an effective enough herbicide to null the threat.
9711
Post by: Morgrim
Dark eldar also wouldn't be trying to destroy us or eliminate us. Indeed that would be counter productive for them. If they hit smaller settlements, such as country towns and more outlying areas, there would be very little that could be done. Major cities could be protected, rural areas couldn't. And they'd go for places with less than 300 people or so, swoop in and kill some and drag the rest off. Anywhere between 50-300ish people would be a good target size. Larger, and you risk sufficient numbers to start taking significant casualties (I don't care how advanced they are, a shotgun to an exposed face is going to do some damage) and may delay you long enough to get a distress call out. If it does and any form of air support can be brought in, the DE better hope they have ravens in the air because their raiders would be toast. A series of short, sharp raids taking ~100 prisoners at a time would be manageable and not impact the global population unduly.
The response would be similar to that of the world Vulcan (is that right? Primach of the Salamanders) fell on; everyone would have a bolthole or hiding place and would race for it at the first sign of an attack. Armed forces would try and do what they can.
9599
Post by: incarna
Cryonicleech wrote:Wait wait wait.
The 21st century is, in large part, more technologically advanced than the 41’s millennium. You have to remember that the Warhammer 40k is set in an era that mirrors our own Dark Ages. There is powerful technology out there, but it’s rare and only the select few have access to it. Ever hear of average Joe-Some Imperial citizen busting out a cellular phone and chatting with someone else half way across the planet? Heck, ever even hear of an inquisitor Googling info on the latest and greatest demon threatening the Emperium?
Cryonicleech wrote:Orks are much, much tougher than humans. If a damn bolter cannot kill an Ork with 1 shot, then how do our weapons suddenly do more? Also, since when did they not have any sort of air support? Roks falling from the sky, hordes of Fightas and Fighta-Bommas filling the air with choking black fumes? Yeah, I don't think so.
I think you have a personal bias that’s clouding the context of this discussion. I never said our weapons do more damage than a bolter. The game mechanics of 40k and the laws of the real world do not correspond in this instance. In 40k there are images of a green tide of millions of Orks crashing against a desperate wall of Imperial Guard. That’s not how modern warfare is fought – war hasn’t been fought like that for quite a long time. Modern warfare is largely precise and once humanity figured out the ork command structure it wouldn’t take long to dismantle it.
As for the ridiculous ork air support… You REALLY think that Roks falling from the sky and the World War 2 era Fightas and Fighta bommas count as air support? It would very literally be like fighting against a poorly trained and uncoordinated Luftwafa with modern fighter planes and bombers. Those “clouds of choking black fumes” - ever hear of CLOUDS? I think our fighter pilots are trained to deal with combat in poor visibility… In tabletop terms it’d be like placing a squad of ork flyers on your gaming table and a squad of F-16’s about a half mile away and then launching precision-guided missiles from those F-16’s that only miss on 1’s – but if you miss you get to re-roll and you again only miss on 1’s. Missiles are strength 100 and each roll 10 dice for the damage they do. Forget about dogfights – even if our pilots FELT like dogfighting they’d be in and out of the Ork midst before the Orks even knew they were being attacked. Do you have any idea how fast our fighter jets are in comparison to ork fliers? Once the orks air defences were thoroughly and completely eradicated it’d be a causal matter to vaporize them from the air.
Sorry, orks don’t stand a chance in hell.
Cryonicleech wrote:Railgun range pathetic? If humanity's FINEST 41st Millenium Anti-Tank weapon can outrange a 50 year old naval vessel, a Railgun will certainly outrange us, with enough punch to break open a damn Land Raider, the toughest vehicle known to man (Not including Apocalypse sized monstrosities) .
To scale 72” is a little over half a football field. But for the sake of argument lets say the game mechanics of 40k don’t apply in this instance either and Tau have REAL railguns and the energy and technology to use them regularly in combat. That’s still irrelevant because, as I said, surgical snipers would dismantle the Tau command structure. It’s difficult to compare but I’d say an Abrams Tank is far better armored (and armed) than a Landraider. And again, we can get into discussions about air superiority but air combat in 40k mirrors World War 2 with some science fiction elements – modern air combat is unto that as an M-16 is to a primitive bow and arrow.
Cryonicleech wrote:Dark Eldar we would have serious problems with. If we can't even deal with our OWN raiders (I.E. Terrorists) then we stand NO chance against raiders who have perfected their craft for thousands of years.
We’ve dealt with our own raiders quite nicely. There are terrorist cells out there but they’re clinging to ideology. Dark Eldar have no such ideology – had we given the Dark Eldar the whooping we gave Alquida they’d never return. Somoli pirates end up with bullets in their brains. The Dark Eldar would regard conflict with a modern industrialized nation far too costly to maintain and focus on raiding 3rd world countries or leaving us alone all together.
Cryonicleech wrote:Call it fanboyism, but we are screwed against ANY 40k race. Why? It's the 41st Milennium for pete's sake, and Humanity with all its advances is STILL struggling with these other races.
Like I said, the 41’s millennium is a mirror to our own Dark Age. With the exception of mideical technology and space travel, we are to 40k as the Romans were to the Dark Ages.
15694
Post by: tigonesskay
Remember Custard's last stand? His army had superior technology but he still got beat by the indians...
21678
Post by: Karon
I thought it was funny someone said that we don't send wave after wave of men at the enemy like the Imperial Guard do, but then he says we would win since we would wear them down because they would run out of bullets, implying that we would just throw people at them to exhaust their ammo.
The irony.
Aswell, how are all of you saying that an Abrams is better armoured than a LAND RAIDER.
It has ceramite, adamantium, plas-steel. We don't even know WHAT THAT IS. They are, what 38 thousand years ahead of us, yes? Or is it 380 thousand years ahead of us? I remember reading on Lexicanum that the Emperor arose in our 1600's, time wise.
I have no doubt in my mind that a Krak Missile would destroy an abrams with little effort, we haven't even discovered laser technology, while they had had it for a long while, this is assuming we ever DO discover some sort of las-tech.
40k wins, anything short of a tank-shell isn't going to scratch a Space Marine, and that probably will only send it flying, hurt it, yeah, but not kill it.
These threads are always fail, I doubt an m-16 could go through IG Flak Armour (note, its not like our flak armour)
20677
Post by: NuggzTheNinja
tigonesskay wrote:I was wondering if the races of 40k were to invade earth today how would our military hold up?
US army vs orks- As far as missiles tanks and weapons we got the orks beat. In hand to hand combat we're pretty much screwed. A bayonet attached to an M-16 might not do
much to a who mob of Orks. The Seals and the speical forces might be used for scouting missions killing Leader orks to bring their morale down.
....Vs. Tau-It could go 50-50. A fight with them might end in a draw forcing the tau to come to a peace agreement with earth.
....Vs 'Nids we will be deep in... We will end up using nuclear weapons and even if we somehow win we will have all of the fallout to worry about...
.....Vs. Dark eldar. They might not be strong enough for a full scale invasion but with so many wars going on they sneak in during the chaos and snatch up some people up to use as slaves.
.....Vs. Necrons It'll be a long hard fight but if all of the armies of the world come together we might beat them if they are a small force. If the force necrons are legion sized....
Any race would get completely and utterly annihilated according to the "rules" as written.
First of all, short of any kind of planetary bombardment, ie: nuke them from orbit, the 40k world is measured in absurdly short distance. 72 inches is the upward limit of ranged weaponry in 40k, for the most part.
An F16 with AWACS support can engage enemy targets outside of visual range. That's the equivalent of hundreds of inches of table space. The m829 discarding sabot, a tank round utilizing a depleted uranium penetrator, has been confirmed to have penetrated TWO T72 tanks FULLY during the Gulf War. They can be used to penetrate 10-30 meters of sand and engage tanks on the opposite side, and kill them. Cover saves? Hah, get out of here. I don't know if any of you have ever shot sand, but 8" of sand will stop most rifle rounds. Our tank rounds can penetrate 30 METERS of sand and kill enemy tanks on the other side.
It doesn't matter what ceramic-steel armor a Land Raider might have. One depleted uranium sabot will pop any armor on the battlefield, modern, future, alien, whatever. The longest kill was a 120mm Sabot round was made by a British Challenger at 5.1 KILOMETERS. I don't know how many inches this translates to in 40k, but I'm assuming it's several tables in length.
40k is a game. Real life weaponry is far more devastating than any bolter could ever dream to be. Lascannons are a joke in terms of what the real world has produced for destroying enemy tanks in the 20th century.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
You know what? You're right. The modern world vs 40k tabletop would equal 40k getting crushed.
BUT you have to remember that 40k is a game, it needs balance and rules and limitations that the fluff does not have. The intent was never to have several table-tops of matches with vast distances, in such a game one side or the other would completely annihilate thier opponent. Balance dictates these limitations.
Fluffwise, it's not so restricted. A believe sabot rounds could kill a tank, maybe even a termie. But I think it's comparable to a lascannon. It will have difficulty destroying something like a Land Raider or Monolith.
Fluffwise, orks can fire insane amounts of rockets in the air (Read 15 hours and you see) that can knock out aircraft regardless of how fast they move. (When you throw that much gak in the air you WILL hit something)
Fluffwise, space marines rip through steel with thier bare hands and bolter rounds penetrate tanks.
Fluffwise, Tau shoot. A lot.
Fluffwise, Nid's get carpet bombed but it does nothing. (And Mycetic spores)
Fluffwise, 40k suddenly looks a bit more formidable.
17376
Post by: Zid
1 decent sized comet would plunge the world into another ice age and kill us all... I'm pretty sure quite a few of the 40k races could manage that.
Considering things like the Valhallans live on a planet as cold as Pluto, or the fact that terminator armor can absorb missile blasts with no issue... we'd be in trouble.
Vs 1 chapter we'd be fine. Vs a fleet of anything we'd be screwed. Vs orcs we'd be wiped out completely I reckon.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
Vs 100 marines we'd be in deep crap, (They have strike cruisers too) never mind a whole Chapter. (A whole chapter cleanse entire subsectors, and wouldn't be wasted on a mere rebel planet)
They wouldn't have the manpower to subjugate us, but they'd certainly be able to crush our forces and soften us up enough for the millions of Guardsmen that followed. Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW, Valhalla =/= Pluto. 
9599
Post by: incarna
NuggzTheNinja wrote:The longest kill was a 120mm Sabot round was made by a British Challenger at 5.1 KILOMETERS. I don't know how many inches this translates to in 40k, but I'm assuming it's several tables in length.
That's 200,787.4 inches. To scale that's 6274.6 inches or in the neighborhood of 1/10th of a mile. Not sure fighting a tabletop game in your back yard with your opponent in your neighbors neighbors neighbors back yard really works.
NuggzTheNinja wrote:40k is a game. Real life weaponry is far more devastating than any bolter could ever dream to be. Lascannons are a joke in terms of what the real world has produced for destroying enemy tanks in the 20th century.
I completely agree with you. Modern military weaponry and firepower make much of what exists in 40k look pathetic in comparison.
BS 4? HA! Our missiles are laser guided and almost ALWAYS hit.
AV 14? HA! Here’s a 120mm round – actually no, have 10 for good measure.
Oh you have Titans? What a shame, have an EMP
Night fighting rules in effect? Sucks to be you, we have night vision
40k is behind the times a bit in terms of modern warfare.
20493
Post by: Gorkamorka
If a pistol a grot built out of mud, sticks, and prayers (The weakest 40k ranged weapon I can think of) outright kills a tac marine 1/6th of the time on a hit... a modern rifle better damn well at least do that much damage.
20677
Post by: NuggzTheNinja
Gorkamorka wrote:If a pistol a grot built out of mud, sticks, and prayers (The weakest 40k ranged weapon I can think of) outright kills a tac marine 1/6th of the time on a hit... a modern rifle better damn well at least do that much damage.
Lasguns and Autoguns have more or less the same profile. Autoguns are basically 20th century rifles. If lasguns can kill Marines, run of the mill modern rifles would work just fine.
The question we should be asking ourselves is, would any of the stuff in 40k actually be useful in the real world? The answer is pretty much "no". Power armor would require too much maintenence for the protection it affords and would cost a bundle, bolters would be fairly worthless, lasguns *maybe* acceptable, Dreadnoughts and Sentinels would be RPG fodder.
21841
Post by: despoiler52
Tacticaly many things in 40k make no sense, why would you put and armoured chasis on legs? As it is fantasy, the rules of engagement are vastly diiferent, just like at one time we stood in straight lines to shoot each other, war evolves. Since the descriptions of 40k weapons are so ambiguous it is hard to tell what would happen in a straight up brawl, but I have to say, earth whould be terrified out of it's mind, 6.5' soldiers that can rip people in half, imperiator titans. Terror is 40k's main weapon against us, that and blowing up our planet from high orbit.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
Of course, these are all very nice and all. But you have yet to even come close to the problem of Orbital Bombardments.
21841
Post by: despoiler52
Oh yes we have, and we found that it destroys us, without exeption we are owed by OB. What can we do against that, nukes?  , they aren't program to fight ships in high orbit (even if they could), plus void shields would laugh at us.
19714
Post by: speedfreak
This is a totally ridiculous topic. If an army technology 38000 years more advanced than ours invaded Earth, we would be completely doomed without chance. Blow up 10 major cities and Earth will be begging for mercy.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
speedfreak wrote:This is a totally ridiculous topic. If an army technology 38000 years more advanced than ours invaded Earth, 40k lost pretty much all of it's cool tech after the Dark Age of Technology we would be completely doomed without chance. Blow up 10 major cities and Earth will be begging for mercy. That part's true though.
21841
Post by: despoiler52
speedfreak wrote:This is a totally ridiculous topic. If an army technology 38000 years more advanced than ours invaded Earth, we would be completely doomed without chance. Blow up 10 major cities and Earth will be begging for mercy.
Epic win, and your right.
7103
Post by: sniperjolly
Meh, the Divisio mandati does a job like this every other week. Two Imperetors a continent, send out reasonable demands and set up Inquisitorial, Munitorium, and Arbites houses in every continent. If there's a fuss, make a big show and blow some stuff up, yeah?
If we were able to advance from viking longships to the USS Nimitz in 1000 years, think what we could do in 38,000.
21357
Post by: Chaos303
This is ridiculess. All we need is a decent hammer and entire regiments would be reduced to plastic and metal bits.
I know nothing of modern military technology, so I will not atempt to comment on it, but I will point out that that it is very difficult to argue about how hard it is to pierce metals that don't exist with bullets that do.
15645
Post by: Cheesepie
if the imperium or tau invaded us we could simply surrender and agree to their greater good or emperor, everybody else we are screwed, if its taking us over 9 years to kill a HUMAN(Osama)
then what makes you think we can defeat giant men with automatic rocket launching rifles, or beat alien equivalents of terriost
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
Actually, if not given the choice of surrender, I imagine humanity here would put up a fantastic (if vainglorious) fight.
It may be futile, but when cornered humans really can give what for. (Valhallans are an excellent 40k example, and I can't even begin to credit all those in real history who have done similarily)
15694
Post by: tigonesskay
A few nations would be too proud to surrender (e.g. U.S.,
China, the bad Korea...) Until the U.N. get's involved...
9711
Post by: Morgrim
tigonesskay wrote:A few nations would be too proud to surrender (e.g. U.S.,
China, the bad Korea...) Until the U.N. get's involved...
Well, the UN might be able to get the US to see some reason. I think the US would splinter into factions that did or did not agree. Other nations would suffer this to greater or lesser degrees. The die-hards would have to be exterminated, they would not capitulate. If the options were 'present a tithe of soldiers and stop wasting your strength squabbling against yourselves or we'll destroy you', then they'd have to help in the no squabbling bit for a few generations, but life would likely continue on quite similar to how it does now.
15694
Post by: tigonesskay
If earth is OB'ed then what's the point if you wanted to capture the planet or it's resources? I thought OB's were for planets too damned to save or to stop the 'nids.
11834
Post by: Superscope
That guy has a point.. Earth is a pretty good planet with the fact that about 90% of planets in the 40K universe are messed up to begin with. Either wars or massive polution renders most imperial planets a eyesore.
Reading the planet strike book, there is a story of a inquistior and a company of space marines taking a planet that was pretty fethed up by chaos deamons... The only reason they just didn't blow the planet up was because the factories on that planet were invaulable.
Earth would be pretty invaulable imho. We have much water on our planet that would be worth heaps to others. We have several matierals that would find a use in the imperium and we would be able to supply some pretty good imperial guardsmens (Think a legion of stormtroopers)
15694
Post by: tigonesskay
Superscope wrote:That guy has a point.. quote]
I'm a gal actually but it's okay..
15773
Post by: Madgod
Put is this way. A Lasgun, capable supposedly of blowing the limb off of an unarmoured human (which is similar to one of our .50 caliber rounds) will do absolutely nothing to power armour in the fluff but blister the paint, if that. If one of our most powerful anti-personnel/ anti-material weapons is capable of doing nothing but blister its armour, then surely even a bazooka will be very hard pressed to do much more than scratch the paint. And lets not forget that a marine would be capable of biting through the armour of our tanks and absolutely murder any human in HtH simply because of speed and strength. You can literally fire as many sniper shots at their heads as you want and do nothing. Nothing short of an anti tank weapon will even slow them down.
They have pinpoint accuracy and even their side arms are capable of blowing up a car in a single shot. A bolter shoots explosive .75 caliber bullets remember? They are more than capable of blowing up an armoured vehicle with one pistol shot. And a marine wouldnt miss.
There are soooo many more reasons why we would lose. Lets not even start on terminators. If marines can take literally 1000 bullets to the face befroe even a crack in the armour then a terminator would quite literally be capable of destroying, for example the entire New Zealand Army single handedly. Their speed and strength and toughness is incomprehensible to us.
I would not rate our chances at all against 100 marines. A whole chapter would have us in a week.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
Madgod wrote:
There are soooo many more reasons why we would lose. Lets not even start on terminators. If marines can take literally 1000 bullets to the face befroe even a crack in the armour then a terminator would quite literally be capable of destroying, for example the entire New Zealand Army single handedly.
Pffft. http://www.invadenewzealand.com/ And no, we wouldn't use Exterminatus, but Orbital Bombardments are still very viable. What is a city or two to them, if it ensures thier surrender? BTW, I have no doubt that the resistance over the years to occupation (after marines have left) would cause the Imperium far more casualties than any front-up initial war with us.
21312
Post by: BeRzErKeR
I'm picturing a war between a company of Space Marines and the modern Earth as going something like this;
Day 1
-Strike Cruiser arrives in orbit, demands our surrender. UN dithers. Various national leaders broadcast outraged refusals. Militaries begin to mobilize.
-Strike Cruiser shoots down all satellites, rendering us more or less blind, deaf and dumb; no satellite radio or TV, no military communication satellites, no orbital surveillance, no Google Earth even.
-Strike Cruiser blankets the radio spectrum with emissions, assuming void shields and lance batteries don't already do so, cutting off radio transmissions and isolating every
- Squadrons of Space Marines drop in on the capital cities of all major nations; Thunderhawks blow any fighters away as they come in, or the drop pods simply land too fast to be intercepted. National governments of the USA, China, Russia, and other major powers are utterly decapitated; legislatures annihilated, executives killed or captured. Space Marines return to orbit.
-Military commands of major powers are destroyed from orbit; the Pentagon, for example, is obliterated by a lance strike. Demonstration strikes may also be made on other areas.
-Another call for surrender is given. Earth is in chaos. Minor powers begin to surrender.
Day 2
-Attempts are made to hit the Strike Cruiser with nuclear weapons. The nukes are shot down, and the silos are blasted, along with any nearby urban areas.
-Small numbers of Space Marines drop into surrendered areas and claim them for the Imperium. Space Marines begin the process of hunting down and exterminating any resistance, along with locals who jump on the bandwagon.
-More precision strikes and squad-sized drops break apart any sizable concentration of troops; major cities in Iraq and Afghanistan are eradicated from orbit, taking much of the US military with them. Any large troop concentration is vaporized, including those inside urban areas. Death toll rises to the millions.
-Space Marines drop on the UN complex in New York and kill all delegates present, then destroy the complex as a show of force. Hundreds if not thousands of soldiers and policemen are killed attempting to stop them.
-Civilians flee urban centers by the millions, causing widespread panic and confusion.
-Some major powers begin to surrender.
Day 3
-Space Marines continue to land in the capital centers of surrendered powers. National militaries of those nations which surrender are impressed to continue the war against those which still resist. Since those nations which have surrendered by this time still have some intact military capacity, they will have a massive advantage as fighting continues.
-Strikes continue on targets of opportunity.
Days 4-???
- Space Marines call for an Imperial Guard occupation force; it will arrive sometime in the next several months, if no warp storms intervene.
-Impressed human troops begin moving to take over those countries which continue to resist. Any surrendered nations which drag their feet have high government officials executed and replaced.
-Organized resistance is destroyed by orbital firepower and precision drops.
-Those nations which are completely taken over are ruled relatively lightly. The contrast between these fairly prosperous places and the cratered warzones that remain of those nations that continue to fight saps the morale of the resistance.
-Sporadic fighting continues until the Imperial Guard arrive.
Day ???
-Imperial Guard arrive in orbit and begin landing. Any remaining resistance is crushed in short order. The Space Marines depart for the next world on their list.
22053
Post by: ComputerGeek01
OMG.
To the 'people' who think that when they log on to Google Earth they are taking control of their own satilite, stop thinking and for our future as a race go out and get sterilized. This data is present on what we call SERVERS and it is SAVED so that you may call up these IMAGES when you want to. This is a pretty good proxy argument for all of you nay-sayers, you assume that today's nations would be crushed but you don't know anything about today's technology.
A .50 caliber round is not the strongest bullet made today, that is why they are classified as 'medium arms'. An autocannon is equal to a modern day autocannon and we can start our real-world fluff comparisons there. In which case we have the ability to take out a Space Marine a lot easier then some of you are suggeting, but a sniper would NOT be the one to do it. I believe that their materials are stronger then anything we have today but they are not indistructable.
The nuclear weapons that were stockpiled during the cold war would have been ICBMs because it's more fuel efficent going half-way around the world in stratospheric flight then it would be sub-orbital. This is a short jump to orbital flight and I'm sure that we would be more then capable of changing it if the missles can't do it already.
The armor (tanks) would be tough but we could eventually destroy them, even if we resort to Tactical Nuclear Weapons as opposed to the massive planet killers that the rest of you are suggesting. There are non-nuclear options like thermobarics or HE and AP rounds, probably with less effect but better ecologically
In Real World we have to view the Space Marines as much stronger Navy SEALS. They are tough as nails individually and no one will question that, but in an open battle field against an armed force equiped force they would be crushed simply because they are not meant to be in that kind of a fight. Troops on the ground would be bombed or shelled and anything in the air would be flying in flak and SAM missles for hours on end.
I'll imagine that the Imperial Guard are probably trained on par with the US-Marine Force Recon\ Army Rangers or the UK-SAS\ Commando Brigade and they are numberd in the millions so that would be a tough fight. I think we would lose against them.
We DO have lasers by the way, what we lack is a portable power source
21312
Post by: BeRzErKeR
ComputerGeek01 wrote:OMG.
To the 'people' who think that when they log on to Google Earth they are taking control of their own satilite, stop thinking and for our future as a race go out and get sterilized. This data is present on what we call SERVERS and it is SAVED so that you may call up these IMAGES when you want to.
FYI, I'm aware of that. However, the images are updated periodically, meaning there is a SATELLITE taking pictures. No satellite, no updates, Google Earth becomes obsolete pretty soon. Normal construction would make sure of that, not to mention a planet-spanning war.
13250
Post by: Lord of battles
Morgrim wrote:tigonesskay wrote:A few nations would be too proud to surrender (e.g. U.S.,
China, the bad Korea...) Until the U.N. get's involved...
Well, the UN might be able to get the US to see some reason. I think the US would splinter into factions that did or did not agree. Other nations would suffer this to greater or lesser degrees. The die-hards would have to be exterminated, they would not capitulate. If the options were 'present a tithe of soldiers and stop wasting your strength squabbling against yourselves or we'll destroy you', then they'd have to help in the no squabbling bit for a few generations, but life would likely continue on quite similar to how it does now.
NO ONE MESSES WITH TEXAS!!!
*Chuck Norris will come and roundhouse kick a Space Marine, then they will all realise that the Emperor has been reancarnated(sp)*
Problems Solved!
15694
Post by: tigonesskay
Emperors Faithful wrote:Madgod wrote:
There are soooo many more reasons why we would lose. Lets not even start on terminators. If marines can take literally 1000 bullets to the face befroe even a crack in the armour then a terminator would quite literally be capable of destroying, for example the entire New Zealand Army single handedly.
Pffft.
http://www.invadenewzealand.com/
That would be a little bit of over kill?
A SM could take 1000 bullets? Not if you shoot them in the eyeball...
21392
Post by: Cambak
BeRzErKeR wrote:I'm picturing a war between a company of Space Marines and the modern Earth as going something like this;
Day 1
-Strike Cruiser arrives in orbit, demands our surrender. UN dithers. Various national leaders broadcast outraged refusals. Militaries begin to mobilize.
-Strike Cruiser shoots down all satellites, rendering us more or less blind, deaf and dumb; no satellite radio or TV, no military communication satellites, no orbital surveillance, no Google Earth even.
-Strike Cruiser blankets the radio spectrum with emissions, assuming void shields and lance batteries don't already do so, cutting off radio transmissions and isolating every
- Squadrons of Space Marines drop in on the capital cities of all major nations; Thunderhawks blow any fighters away as they come in, or the drop pods simply land too fast to be intercepted. National governments of the USA, China, Russia, and other major powers are utterly decapitated; legislatures annihilated, executives killed or captured. Space Marines return to orbit.
-Military commands of major powers are destroyed from orbit; the Pentagon, for example, is obliterated by a lance strike. Demonstration strikes may also be made on other areas.
-Another call for surrender is given. Earth is in chaos. Minor powers begin to surrender.
Day 2
-Attempts are made to hit the Strike Cruiser with nuclear weapons. The nukes are shot down, and the silos are blasted, along with any nearby urban areas.
-Small numbers of Space Marines drop into surrendered areas and claim them for the Imperium. Space Marines begin the process of hunting down and exterminating any resistance, along with locals who jump on the bandwagon.
-More precision strikes and squad-sized drops break apart any sizable concentration of troops; major cities in Iraq and Afghanistan are eradicated from orbit, taking much of the US military with them. Any large troop concentration is vaporized, including those inside urban areas. Death toll rises to the millions.
-Space Marines drop on the UN complex in New York and kill all delegates present, then destroy the complex as a show of force. Hundreds if not thousands of soldiers and policemen are killed attempting to stop them.
-Civilians flee urban centers by the millions, causing widespread panic and confusion.
-Some major powers begin to surrender.
Day 3
-Space Marines continue to land in the capital centers of surrendered powers. National militaries of those nations which surrender are impressed to continue the war against those which still resist. Since those nations which have surrendered by this time still have some intact military capacity, they will have a massive advantage as fighting continues.
-Strikes continue on targets of opportunity.
Days 4-???
- Space Marines call for an Imperial Guard occupation force; it will arrive sometime in the next several months, if no warp storms intervene.
-Impressed human troops begin moving to take over those countries which continue to resist. Any surrendered nations which drag their feet have high government officials executed and replaced.
-Organized resistance is destroyed by orbital firepower and precision drops.
-Those nations which are completely taken over are ruled relatively lightly. The contrast between these fairly prosperous places and the cratered warzones that remain of those nations that continue to fight saps the morale of the resistance.
-Sporadic fighting continues until the Imperial Guard arrive.
Day ???
-Imperial Guard arrive in orbit and begin landing. Any remaining resistance is crushed in short order. The Space Marines depart for the next world on their list.
So us West Virginians Are left alone... SWEET! big mistake, our branch of the national guard, random mountain men, me, and those that make a living hunting, move into the forests and co-opt gorrilla strike missions for a whiles untill the imperial guard come along, and burn out forests with hellhounds and flamers, while he retreat into the mountains, set up prime ambush areas, block off routs or makes them far to dangrous to travel by all but the famed Tanith First and Only. We then equip ourselves, or what's left of us, with RPGs Rock Luanchers, ect. And hold off as long as we can, untill tehy finally kill us off, soem months to years later.
9711
Post by: Morgrim
Considering that the Imperium is accustomed to fighting wars of attrition, that wouldn't be an issue. And if SM could do what they do in fluff, I think BeRzErKeR has the right of it.
5810
Post by: MIKEtheMERCILESS
They nay-sayers argue that we'd win because weapons of today are awesome.
Others, myself included say we'd loose as we have no weapons, tactics, strategies or technology which would make us unique in the 41st millenium. In fact, the weapons which we're so proud of would be regarded as obsolete. In the fluff, the Imperium conquers planets MUCH more advanced, and MUCH better prepared than ours on a daily basis, and they do it easily.
But the biggest argument I'd have is that, if a vast Interstellar fleet of super-humans turned up, and explained to us how we are part of a galaxy-spanning Imperium, I don't think many world leaders would be arguing the toss. Reality is that they'd probably win before the first shot is fired.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
IF this planet (Geez I can't even call it Earth becuase Terra exists...? ) could be convinced of the dangers it would face if left without the protection of the Imperium I think that we would surrender to the Imperium with relatively little fighting.
HOWEVER, against a foe that wishes nothing but our utter destruction it is a different story. Knowing orks, necrons ect humanity would fight to the death. And when one is willing to fight to the death, we become a very dangerous foe indeed.
22234
Post by: TheTrueProtoman
How do we become dangerous, I would really love to see us get orbital bombarded and punched to death with armored tank equivalents of troopers known as the space marines. I really don't know how we are getting the fact that we would stand a chance, if we did stand a chance against space marines then the people we are fighting, which are geared and trained to assault a planet for the purposes of conquering it would not exist.
It's almost as saying that for some reason with our Antiquated technology compared to theirs even by imperial guard standards that with our rocks to their armored chassis that we would stand a chance, where are we getting this, even humans in 40k are better equipped and trained physically superior to us.
Hold on fellas let me grab my rock I'm going to go kill a space marine brb.
9711
Post by: Morgrim
In WW2 some military officers were surprised by just how much damage completely desperate people with nothing to lose could do.
And the idea of damaging a tank via a hill, slippery cobblestones and soapy water is an amusing one. (I suck at history, I'd need to look up where that happened. I just recall my history teacher talking about it.)
Against things like necrons or nids, would we win? No, but I think we may put a reasonable dent in the first wave that came. Against the Imperium, I think we'd capitulate before complete destruction, but no idea how many causalities there would be before that.
15694
Post by: tigonesskay
I know there might be examples in 40k history when a less advanced army or race kicked the Imperium's butt in some battle...
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
Hmmm? A less advanced HUMAN army? If so, I'm not sure I've heard of it. In fact, advance or not, I know of no sucessful human realm to take on the Imperium.
9599
Post by: incarna
The technology of Warhammer 40,000 is not 38,000 years more advanced than our modern technology. The storyline of 40k parallels our own Dark Ages. There are instances of advanced technology, but they are extremely rare.
Imperial Guard are pretty much the unwashed hoards of a conscripted Dark Age fief.
Space Marines are pretty much knights.
Comparatively, the bulk of battlefield technology in 40k is on par with what we used in the 40s and 50s.
Of course space travel is a different story.
The Imperial Guard tanks and artillery may as well be catapults compared to what we have today.
The Imperial Navy fighters and bombers are barely the equivalent of World War 1 aviation.
Space marines, even terminators and dreadnaughts are nowhere near as invulnerable as people think. Of course they’d beat us in hand to hand but we don’t fight hand to hand. Even if we did, there are plenty of stories of fully armored marines being dragged down by hoards of cultists. RPGs and Armor Penetrating rounds are but a very few of the weapons we can bring to bear on an armored target. I’m willing to bet that a mounted 50 caliber machine gun would make short work of even a terminator from well outside the range of a terminator’s ability to retaliate.
The question of orbital bombardment is a tricky one. Of course an orbital strike would be devastating but I’m not convinced it’d be too much trouble to modify our nuclear weapons to hit targets in orbit. I’m sure when our satellites first caught glimpse of the Imperial navy approaching earth the world leaders will immediately set many of the most brilliant minds on the planet to figuring out how to attack targets in orbit just in case the visitors are hostile. Considering that the vast majority of ICBM’s and nukes in submarines are already mounted on rockets, I’m not seeing it taking very long 0 and when your very survival depends on something, you have a tendency to work fast.
As far as wars of attrition go – The Tau are far less populous than the Imperial Guard and they repelled the Imperium. Of course they were still a multi-planet empire.
I had a mathematics professor about eight years ago who worked with mathematicians in the department of defense. When 911 happened, of course the talk of the class moved to the approaching Afghanistan conflict. The conversation then moved to the potential for nuclear war. I’ll never forget my professor saying that he couldn’t really discuss it but that nuclear weapons were archaic in comparison to what exists behind closed doors in the military… that it was unlikely that we’d ever even bother to use nukes again and that they mostly just existed as a frightening deterrent. He said he’s seen math that represented the ability to vaporize mountain ranges from space but that’s as much detail as he could go into – that was eight years ago.
I think we’d be ok if the Imperium showed up here.
23617
Post by: Lexx
Unless we can stop an exterminatus then wed be doomed. No matter what the numbers show. If there was a battle barge with energy weapons able to bombard cities and missiles able to strip the world of all lifeforms being able to lob our nukes at them can be pretty hollow. Plus wed have to be able to make such missiles able to stay on target with any evasive maneuvers their craft can attempt.
Plus what would there be to stop them from shooting our missiles down whilst on takeoff and causing us more damage?
21312
Post by: BeRzErKeR
incarna wrote:The technology of Warhammer 40,000 is not 38,000 years more advanced than our modern technology. The storyline of 40k parallels our own Dark Ages. There are instances of advanced technology, but they are extremely rare.
Uh, yeah. . . advanced technology BY THE STANDARDS OF 40K is pretty rare. I think you're working off of the tabletop stats, which are NOT what we're discussing. In the fluff, a lasgun is easily the better of any modern small-arm.
incarna wrote:
Comparatively, the bulk of battlefield technology in 40k is on par with what we used in the 40s and 50s.
The Imperial Guard tanks and artillery may as well be catapults compared to what we have today.
The Imperial Navy fighters and bombers are barely the equivalent of World War 1 aviation.
Ye-no. Not at all. Imperial Navy fighters and bombers are spacecraft. They can move at speeds inconceivable to modern air force pilots, engage at ranges measured in thousands of kilometers, and carry weapons capable of destroying battleships as standard armament.
incarna wrote:
Space marines, even terminators and dreadnaughts are nowhere near as invulnerable as people think. Of course they’d beat us in hand to hand but we don’t fight hand to hand. Even if we did, there are plenty of stories of fully armored marines being dragged down by hoards of cultists. RPGs and Armor Penetrating rounds are but a very few of the weapons we can bring to bear on an armored target. I’m willing to bet that a mounted 50 caliber machine gun would make short work of even a terminator from well outside the range of a terminator’s ability to retaliate.
Ok, first; why do you think a .50 cal can penetrate Terminator armour? Terminator armour can stand up to a sustained assault from bolter shells; that is to say, 30mm RPG rounds, loaded with an explosive we haven't even invented yet. I don't think .50 cal bullets will have much of a chance.
And second, why don't you think a Termie can respond at that range? A storm bolter is, as I just mentioned, a rapid-fire RPG launcher. I am inclined to think such a weapon could take out a .50 cal.
incarna wrote:
The question of orbital bombardment is a tricky one. Of course an orbital strike would be devastating but I’m not convinced it’d be too much trouble to modify our nuclear weapons to hit targets in orbit. I’m sure when our satellites first caught glimpse of the Imperial navy approaching earth the world leaders will immediately set many of the most brilliant minds on the planet to figuring out how to attack targets in orbit just in case the visitors are hostile. Considering that the vast majority of ICBM’s and nukes in submarines are already mounted on rockets, I’m not seeing it taking very long 0 and when your very survival depends on something, you have a tendency to work fast.
Sure, we could shoot nukes at a ship in low orbit; but we are not used to fighting in space, and the Imperium is. They routinely use weapons that far outclass modern nukes in ship-to-ship fights, and their ships are built to survive such. In addition, an Imperial ship mounts point defense. So most likely our nukes, which are big, easy targets as they rise out of the atmosphere, are shot down; and if not, they bounce off the Imperial ship's void shields. Then they blast our silos to glass. Oops, no more nukes!
10356
Post by: Bran Dawri
Cryonicleech wrote:Call it fanboyism, but we are screwed against ANY 40k race. Why? It's the 41st Milennium for pete's sake, and Humanity with all its advances is STILL struggling with these other races.
We can beat Orks, for sure - they're not that smart, and while 40K's humanity might struggle against them, the "sin" of invention would see us gain the upper hand and kill them with biological weapons fast.
We're also cunning enough to feign submission to an Imperial occupation until we get our hands on that lovely, lovely technology of theirs.
Then we improve on it, and kick them back out again. Same goes for Tau.
Necrons? Eh. hackers and computer viruses designed towards however the necron "programming" function.
Eldar? Depends on what they want. Subjugation? See above. Eradication - we might be screwed. Then again, Eldar aren't usually interested in planetary populations unless they interfere with Exodites (I'm pretty sure we're not an Exodite world), or the farseer says that one person or his descendant will do something of significance that hurts us in 500 years, and they'll go in, kill that one guy, and leave again. We won't even know it happened.
Only races we'd be proper screwed against would be 'Nids - we have a few weeks to invent something that kills them all before the world is consumed.
Then again, if we put up enough resistance, the Hive Mind might calculate that eating our planet would be a net loss and bugger off, but that's the only hope of salvation we have.
It's not that we're currently well equipped against most of 40K's factions, it's that unlike any of them save the Tau, we is clever monkeys, and will invent solutions where they don't already exist.
None of this is taking into account that we're 6 feet tall on average versus the average 40K denizens height of a few inches .
4008
Post by: kadun
Does the Earth get its full arsenal of Strategic and Tactical Nuclear Weapons? If so, I would say Earth > 1 Space Marine Chapter.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
Bran Dawri wrote:Cryonicleech wrote:Call it fanboyism, but we are screwed against ANY 40k race. Why? It's the 41st Milennium for pete's sake, and Humanity with all its advances is STILL struggling with these other races.
We can beat Orks, for sure - they're not that smart, and while 40K's humanity might struggle against them, the "sin" of invention would see us gain the upper hand and kill them with biological weapons fast. Maybe. It hasn't worked for the Imperium so far, and there HAVE been recorded attempts. We're also cunning enough to feign submission to an Imperial occupation until we get our hands on that lovely, lovely technology of theirs. Then we improve on it, and kick them back out again. Same goes for Tau. Exactly what do you mean by improve? At best you take some of thier weapons, but you'll never have access to Titan Legion or SM tech. And Tau or Imperials will hardly trust you enough. They're not going to just hand over their tech to you. Necrons? Eh. hackers and computer viruses designed towards however the necron "programming" function. Necrons are souls entrapped within machine bodies that repair themselves. How is a virus going to help? Where's the fething plug? Eldar? Depends on what they want. Subjugation? See above. Eradication - we might be screwed. Then again, Eldar aren't usually interested in planetary populations unless they interfere with Exodites (I'm pretty sure we're not an Exodite world), or the farseer says that one person or his descendant will do something of significance that hurts us in 500 years, and they'll go in, kill that one guy, and leave again. We won't even know it happened. Eldar DEFINITELY won't be handing over thier tech. And this could very well be an Exodite/Maiden world (we do sorta have a perfect enviroment). Only races we'd be proper screwed against would be 'Nids - we have a few weeks to invent something that kills them all before the world is consumed. Same point as the orks. Imperium did deliver something similar into the hive queen node. But they had to capture a lictor, study it for a while (while entire planets were getting eaten elsewhere) and THEN ram it down the Hive Ships throat. And that didn't kill all of them. Then again, if we put up enough resistance, the Hive Mind might calculate that eating our planet would be a net loss and bugger off, but that's the only hope of salvation we have. No. Hasn't worked for fortress worlds, won't work for us. It's not that we're currently well equipped against most of 40K's factions, it's that unlike any of them save the Tau, we is clever monkeys, and will invent solutions where they don't already exist. Um. We're humans. They're humans. (and Eldar/Tau/Orks etc). Why do you think we're any more innovative? A bit of inter-planet racism going on there? None of this is taking into account that we're 6 feet tall on average versus the average 40K denizens height of a few inches . Hmmm. Good point.
10356
Post by: Bran Dawri
Emperors Faithful wrote:Maybe. It hasn't worked for the Imperium so far, and there HAVE been recorded attempts.
such as? Regardless, orks are far from invulnerable to conventional weaponry, even the low-tech (tho I disagree) weaponry of 21st century earth. Biological weaponry was just an example - we might have to resort to chemical warfare instead
Exactly what do you mean by improve? At best you take some of thier weapons, but you'll never have access to Titan Legion or SM tech. And Tau or Imperials will hardly trust you enough. They're not going to just hand over their tech to you.
Exactly what I said. We're a world with industrial capabilities. The Imperium, being humans, will consider us just another rediscovered human world brought inline, expect a tithe of Guardsman regiments and other stuff.
With us being a reasonably industrialised world, we will be expected to turn that industrial strength up a notch and start producing Imperial goods. Voila - imperial tech at our disposal. Hand it over to engineers and scientists to reverse-engineer it and then tinker with. (And why would we need SM tech?)
Tau would take a bit more time, but a similar scenario (maybe stealing the things instead of being given them) should suffice.
Necrons are souls entrapped within machine bodies that repair themselves. How is a virus going to help? Where's the fething plug?
Machine bodies. That means intricate electrical mechanisms - and they have to have some method of communicating wirelessly. All we need to do is figure out how, disrupt that (whether by using it against via the computervirus of Independence Day or just jamming the frequency or whatever), and we as good as have them beat.
Eldar DEFINITELY won't be handing over thier tech. And this could very well be an Exodite/Maiden world (we do sorta have a perfect enviroment).
So, seen any Exodites running around lately? Though it could once have been a maiden world. In any case, it's a moot point. Eldar live on craftworlds. There's no record of any of them wanting to raise a stellar empire by enslaving monkeigh.
Same point as the orks. Imperium did deliver something similar into the hive queen node. But they had to capture a lictor, study it for a while (while entire planets were getting eaten elsewhere) and THEN ram it down the Hive Ships throat. And that didn't kill all of them.
I know - I said we'd be proper f*kked against Nids - that's the last chance scenario.
No. Hasn't worked for fortress worlds, won't work for us.
There's a few instances known of this happening. One with a last stand by Imperial Fists for sure. Question is, do we have the stamina for that kind of a last desperate gambit?
Um. We're humans. They're humans. (and Eldar/Tau/Orks etc). Why do you think we're any more innovative? A bit of inter-planet racism going on there?
A little bit. Exactly how many instances of advancing technology for the Imperium in the ten millennia since the Horus Heresy do you know of? Only ones I can think of are anecdotal and relate to either rediscovering old technology (SCTs), or something akin to weapon-swaps on tanks. Heck, one of the notable things about the Imperium is that it doesn't progress technologically. How many instances of advancing technology do you know of for the Eldar? The Orks?
Hmmm. Good point.
Just trying to put the discussion into perspective a bit
23084
Post by: Captain Solon
thats a stupid post... nuking nids?
Exterminatus extreemis. lawl.
21312
Post by: BeRzErKeR
Bran Dawri wrote:
A little bit. Exactly how many instances of advancing technology for the Imperium in the ten millennia since the Horus Heresy do you know of? Only ones I can think of are anecdotal and relate to either rediscovering old technology (SCTs), or something akin to weapon-swaps on tanks. Heck, one of the notable things about the Imperium is that it doesn't progress technologically. How many instances of advancing technology do you know of for the Eldar? The Orks?
For the Orks? Lots. Ork Meks are always inventing new things, all the time. Shokk Attack Gunz are recent inventions. Orkimedes invented the tellyporta for the Third Armageddeon War. The Mighty Mangler of Bork, if I recall correctly, forced his Meks to invent a piece of artillery large enough to bombard the moon of his world from the surface (yes, he was a little mad). Orks are quite possibly the most inventive race in the galaxy.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
@Bran Dawri: You do know that fething around with sacred technology is heresy right? The Imperium and Tech priests are gonna be keeping a close eye on us...
10356
Post by: Bran Dawri
Yup - and us, being comparatively enlightened beings, do not care for such superstitions. And a planet is a big place. Hiding research labs from visiting investigators should be possible.
649
Post by: Thanatos_elNyx
Well why don't ye make a 2k Codex?
An M16 is an Autogun, an M60 is a H. Stubber, etc.....
6829
Post by: Cheese Elemental
Bran Dawri: Necrons are not true 'machines'. They simply have bodies made of necrodermis. You can't hack them or sabotage their 'systems', because they don't have any.
13705
Post by: the_ferrett
Has anyone yet discussed the fact that all these fictional worlds are supremely more densely packed with warrior castes. I mean it boils down to percentage mobile army. For every one soldier, how many civilians know how to fight WELL. Grimdark is set back in feudal mentality and although there are alot of serfs, Carls and Thralls usuallt made sure their lessers could at least shove a pointy stick in someone's snotbox. I speak for some of suburbia when I say, don't invade my place. Please?
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
the_ferret sums that up well enough.
15773
Post by: Madgod
tigonesskay wrote:Emperors Faithful wrote:Madgod wrote:
There are soooo many more reasons why we would lose. Lets not even start on terminators. If marines can take literally 1000 bullets to the face befroe even a crack in the armour then a terminator would quite literally be capable of destroying, for example the entire New Zealand Army single handedly.
Pffft.
http://www.invadenewzealand.com/
That would be a little bit of over kill?
A SM could take 1000 bullets? Not if you shoot them in the eyeball...
Maybe a little bit but it wouldn't be hard. We would have next to nothing that could hurt it. No planes. Armoured vehicles that are probably easier to blow up than the average American GM car. This is the army, you must remember with only 2000 regulars. The army that was too stupid to measure their armoured vehicles against their planes before buying them (they don't fit and so are pretty much useless). The army whose entire annual budget is less than what the US Army has spent in Iraq alone by 10am. We would have very very little that would hurt it at all. Even less that could with stand even a single bolter shot. I wouldn't like to bet either way. And I'm allowed to say this because I live in NZ.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
But you would surrender long before it ever came to an actual fight anyway so it doesn't really matter, does it?
22571
Post by: MOMUS
@ bran dawri
'how many instances of advancing technology for the Imperium in the ten millennia since the Horus Heresy do you know of? Only ones I can think of are anecdotal and relate to either rediscovering old technology (SCTs), or something akin to weapon-swaps on tanks. Heck, one of the notable things about the Imperium is that it doesn't progress technologically.'
did the light just go on for you?
the imperium reached its zenith, its now trying to get back there.
we would be screwed sideways against any 40k race
orks -were created by the old ones as a warrior race and have outlasted them, the eldar and humans. i doubt they would die so easy without @ least granting resistance to the next generation
which reminds me orks on earth is very bad, as soon they will be popping out of the ground.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
It would depend on the amount of orks. A single rok (while cuasing chaos on a continent) would be relatively easy to contain and defeat. They have no ships in orbit, no air superiorty and very few vehichles to start off with.(Infestation that grows after is a different story, that'll be around for a while)
If it's a full blown Waaagh on the other hand, it doesn't look so good for us.
20700
Post by: IvanTih
What if we launch nuke to the warboss position.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
In the case of a Rok? Yeah, that'd work.
But a Warboss at the head of a Waaagh is going to be much more difficult to target.
20700
Post by: IvanTih
We have enough nukes to destroy world 13 times so launch it on orks.Ork infestation is almost impossible to rid off.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
I doubt very much ANY Govt would approve of luanching all our Nukes. No matter the situation.
20700
Post by: IvanTih
I know that,nukes are used as last resort.I wonder what would happen if the orks started believe that shootas are powerful as tank main cannon.
6838
Post by: 1hadhq
Emperors Faithful wrote:It would depend on the amount of orks. A single rok (while cuasing chaos on a continent) would be relatively easy to contain and defeat. They have no ships in orbit, no air superiorty and very few vehichles to start off with.(Infestation that grows after is a different story, that'll be around for a while)
If it's a full blown Waaagh on the other hand, it doesn't look so good for us.
Despair against filthy greenskin?
No need to. Orks are too desperate to fight, bait them and kill them off.
Plus we do still research. After the first cleansing, orks may become our new favourite fungi flavor....
imagine the possibilities. 
Or we just invent a fungizid, get rid of them here and infect the fleeing orks too.
So please let it be orks.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
I do agree that against orks we stand the best chance, but if they have a fleet, we're pretty much screwed.
11892
Post by: Shadowbrand
I think we'd be ok with the Imperium, till the guardsmen call in Exterminatus or Astartes show up.
15694
Post by: tigonesskay
1hadhq wrote:Emperors Faithful wrote:It would depend on the amount of orks. A single rok (while cuasing chaos on a continent) would be relatively easy to contain and defeat. They have no ships in orbit, no air superiorty and very few vehichles to start off with.(Infestation that grows after is a different story, that'll be around for a while)
If it's a full blown Waaagh on the other hand, it doesn't look so good for us.
Despair against filthy greenskin?
No need to. Orks are too desperate to fight, bait them and kill them off.
Plus we do still research. After the first cleansing, orks may become our new favourite fungi flavor....
imagine the possibilities.
Or we just invent a fungizid, get rid of them here and infect the fleeing orks too.
So please let it be orks.
Unless the orks end up in the amazon rain forest. Then we never fully get rid of them...
13026
Post by: UltramarineRV
To be honest orks would probably have the upper hand being able to teleport living things from a distance. making those and using it against other races might work so much better (using enemy pows and being really accurate.) 
17923
Post by: Asherian Command
you all forget area 51!
We have technology that even the military is still testing.
Don't say no no its true we have technology that we can't imagine. Hell stargate could of been based on real life events XD.
That or we fight till we die! THAT IS THE TERRAN WAY!
6838
Post by: 1hadhq
Emperors Faithful wrote:I do agree that against orks we stand the best chance, but if they have a fleet, we're pretty much screwed.
Orks cannot resist to and will not stay in orbit.
And were screwed anyway if 40k becomes true.....
23983
Post by: mon-keigh slayer
It’s difficult to compare but I’d say an Abrams Tank is far better armored (and armed) than a Landraider.
^^^^ thats the most ridiculous thing ive ever seen .... a land raider could probably take a near direct hit from a nuclear weapon and keep rolling forward and dump termys out that have no problem with the radiation in their insane armor.
Yes theyre in a dark age, but they have tech that was made a loooong time before that dark age, slowly failing and not quite as good as when it was made, as they can only repair and patch problems, but still waaaaay superior to us.
A railguns range is balanced for game mechanics, by fluff theyre range would be orbital probably lol ....
20700
Post by: IvanTih
mon-keigh slayer wrote: It’s difficult to compare but I’d say an Abrams Tank is far better armored (and armed) than a Landraider.
^^^^ thats the most ridiculous thing ive ever seen .... a land raider could probably take a near direct hit from a nuclear weapon and keep rolling forward and dump termys out that have no problem with the radiation in their insane armor.
Yes theyre in a dark age, but they have tech that was made a loooong time before that dark age, slowly failing and not quite as good as when it was made, as they can only repair and patch problems, but still waaaaay superior to us.
A railguns range is balanced for game mechanics, by fluff theyre range would be orbital probably lol ....
You cannot compare Abrams Tank to the tank which has adamantium hull,lascannons which punch through everything,advanced computer which can pilot it after the crew is dead etc....
23983
Post by: mon-keigh slayer
i wasnt, i was quoting out something form page 2 i think it was .... he tryed to say abrams was > land raider in armor and weaponry .... like wtf O.o
20700
Post by: IvanTih
Then that guy who posted it is terribly wrong. 
22327
Post by: Lazarus the Necrotic
i think against the 40k universe, basically any of the races could best us (besides Dark Eldar maybe....)
 orks= run up and axe you
 tau= super guns
 nids= holy crap eat your face off
 necrons= metal zombies w/ guns
 IG= too many men and too many tanks
 space marines= don't even get me started
 Chaos SM= holy crap the same as before but with demons!!!
 sisters of battle= okay... we could probably beat them too
game over, man... sure we'd fight but we'd probably lose.
our military is good, but against such odds?
121
Post by: Relapse
I'd say we'd be well and truly screwed. As an earlier poster stated, in the fluff, a Space Marine chapter is enough to bring a higher tech and more highly populated world than ours to it's knees.
Orks would just drop roks on the place, come down and spread spores from Hell to breakfast.
It wouldn't take a lot for a space faring race to destroy communication satalites or use emp blasts to mess up electronics and weapon guidance equipment, and that would just be the openers.
22514
Post by: Terje-Tubby
Emperors Faithful wrote:
Ketara wrote:We're talking about a single space marine chapter here. With whatever they can bring with them. So no new supplies and initiates. What gets expended, stays expended. What gets killed, stays dead. And to be perfectly honest, even if you include a spaceship of pen-pushers, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't last long in a country that doesn't want them there. They're not soldiers after all.
Why are you assuming that the Marines are without support?
It's not like their supply lines have been cut by the ninja-astronuats that are floating around the 2k world.
The thread is ONE chapter with it`s supplies vs Earth. And 1000 is just +/-
121
Post by: Relapse
In the 40k universe, even a pen pusher can have some nasty tricks and skills.
I'm kind of reminded of an earlier thread where people were posting opinions of how they stacked up physically in a 40k setting. A lot of people were rating themselves as strong and tough as an Ork or marine, or as dextrous as an Eldar.
This thread seems to go along the same line.
23983
Post by: mon-keigh slayer
Also, people seem to be ragging on the mass infantry charge ig is so fond of. Saying wed just bomb them or whatever, not realizing that ig would have complete air superiority with lightnings instaraping our crappy feeble tech jets.
When you have half a million guys running at you with artillery going off nonstop and tanks rolling up and theyve shot down all of your planes and can take down your missiles almost instantly with hydra batteries ... not lookin good ....
11029
Post by: Ketara
It must be said, sides aside, the general level of ignorance in this thread with regard to modern weaponry, strategy, and tactics is astounding.
121
Post by: Relapse
Ketara wrote:It must be said, sides aside, the general level of ignorance in this thread with regard to modern weaponry, strategy, and tactics is astounding.
I agree. It's like a little kid saying he's could take Brock Lesnar in a fight because his mom just gave him a new set of boxing gloves as say Earth could stand up against any of the 40k races if they existed in real life as presented in the fluff because we have jets and satellites.
23983
Post by: mon-keigh slayer
wow thats an epic ohsnap pic .... *saves* lol
|
|
