Hi, im angry_gretchin and i was wondering if anyone knows anything about the new tyranid codex and any tactics against them with CSM?

From what I have read on other threads, Plasma Plasma Plasma

KK

Lotsa small arms fire (bolters, nurgles rot) to kill the swarm. Flamers is never a bad idea here. Berserkers. Thousand Sons. Havocs with heavy bolters.

WARNING! This is entirly made up by a guy who can`t spell entirelly, so never trust it or quote it! WARNING!

From what I've heard, they still need to wait out for the new Codex till January.
So hold your horses, new tactics will be made against them once everyone can actually read the rules.

Well, I read the new Nids codex.
Nidzilla seems to be dead since Carnifexes are too expensive for what they can achieve.
Nids have new special characters with neat special rules.
Those big bugs can be annoying.
My guess is that the new Nids will use pods (similar to SM drop pods) in order to bring their broods close to the enemy front ranks.
On the other hand, they lost almost all biomorphs and their shooting will become even worse
so that they will hardly take down any tanks.
Go for a mech CSM army...

wuestenfux wrote:On the other hand, they lost almost all biomorphs and their shooting will become even worse so that they will hardly take down any tanks.

Hive Guard? Venom Cannons can kill tanks now? Gaunts are viable, especially with a Tervigon? That doesn't sound like worse shooting to me. As for the bio-morphs, they only lost the ones that didn't do anything in this edition anyway.

Just go Mech, grab some combi-flamers and make sure everyone has both CC weapons. All CSM (exluding TS, who don't help anyway) are atleast as good in combat as an Assault Marine squad. We'll be fine.

The usual junk. Lash, Oblits, PMs, Zerks, Termicide will still chew through Nids.

DarkHound wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:On the other hand, they lost almost all biomorphs and their shooting will become even worse so that they will hardly take down any tanks.

Hive Guard? Venom Cannons can kill tanks now? Gaunts are viable, especially with a Tervigon? That doesn't sound like worse shooting to me. As for the bio-morphs, they only lost the ones that didn't do anything in this edition anyway.

The venom cannon is S6, small blast, while the heavy version is S9, small blast.
Shots will eventually scatter and get an additional -1 on the penetration table,
i.e., -3 for glancing and -1 for penetrating.
That's not very scary.

wuestenfux wrote:The venom cannon is S6, small blast, while the heavy version is S9, small blast.
Shots will eventually scatter and get an additional -1 on the penetration table,
i.e., -3 for glancing and -1 for penetrating.
That's not very scary.

"Shots will eventually scatter..." Yes, Terminators will eventually roll 1's. Does that mean they aren't extrodinarly durable to anti-infantry?

Blast weapons are not particularly inaccurate, with a 33% chance to stick and failing that a ~65% to not scatter far enough for it to matter. That is a 75% accuracy, which is scary. However, this isn't the scariest bit. Hive Guard will shoot you even out of LoS, and failing that there are the floating brains. No, 'Nids ranged anti-tank is on par with most everyone else now. However, we've been fighting everyone else fine so far. This update is going to make 'Nids more fun to play against, but I doubt it'll be particularly balance breaking. I think it'll find itself a comfortable in the meta-game and nothing more, just like the Space Wolves.

OK. Can't wait to play against new tyranids!

Hive Guard will shoot you even out of LoS, and failing that there are the floating brains.

I read diagonally through the new codex and talked to a veteran Nids player.
However, I overlooked the Hive Guard entry.

DarkHound wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:On the other hand, they lost almost all biomorphs and their shooting will become even worse so that they will hardly take down any tanks.

Hive Guard? Venom Cannons can kill tanks now? Gaunts are viable, especially with a Tervigon? That doesn't sound like worse shooting to me. As for the bio-morphs, they only lost the ones that didn't do anything in this edition anyway.

Just go Mech, grab some combi-flamers and make sure everyone has both CC weapons. All CSM (exluding TS, who don't help anyway) are atleast as good in combat as an Assault Marine squad. We'll be fine.

I think TS has a invulnerable save? Then MC will have a hard time killing them while they have AP 3 guns. I think they will be very good against carnifexes.
What`s that drop pod thing anyway?

Well, TS will wound Carnifexes on 6+ with their special bolter ammunition.

The Pods have rules similar to the SM drop pods. But they are MCs with S6 and T6.

I've read conflicting reports on the pods some that say they are t4 w/ 3 wounds.

No, Thousand Sons are bad now and they will continue to be bad. Without that second close combat weapon they are terribly vulnerable in any kind of close combat. They shoot AP3 bolters, but anything you'd fire bolters at has a 5+ save (and/or a cover save). While an MC may get bogged down in Thousand Sons, he is certainly making his points back with every kill. They are blighting expensive, and they won't be hurting him back (except on the tiny chance you can get a Force Weapon off).

About the drop pods, I've only ever heard they were T6.

About the drop pods, I've only ever heard they were T6.

As far as I remember, pods are MCs with S6 and T6.

wuestenfux wrote:

About the drop pods, I've only ever heard they were T6.

As far as I remember, pods are MCs with S6 and T6.

Do they get a move/assault capability in subsequent turns after landing?

I guess they can move as normal infantry.

Just curious. Never know when GW is gonna decide that the nid pods are treated as MCs for the purpose of being shot at and assault, but may not move or initiate assaults. Thats a little more dangerous too when each Nid brood brings its own baby MC. Remember how many wounds they had by chance?

Dedicated Transports

Yes.

Yes, there are.

Spore Capsule

You may buy a Spore Capsule for lots of units: it may transport 1 Monstrous Creature or up to 20 Infantry.

The Spore Capsule is Deep Striking, and the unit within disembarks. It may neither move nor attack. It may still shoot.

The Capsule has WS and BS 2. It has Toughness 5 or 6 and 3 Lifepoints. It has, if i remember correctly, 3 attacks S 6.

It has a Assault 6 Strength 6 shooting attack with a range of 6 inches.

From 40kOnline.

Thousand sons are actually good Carnifax killers in CC. The sorcerer has 4 attacks with his bolt pistol on a charge. With the mark of Tzeentch a sorcerer can use 2 psychic powers a turn so the sorcerer can activate warptime and then active his force weapon killing the carnifax after scoring a single wound. My 1750 rouge trader list has a squad of 8 thousand sons + the sorcerer in it primarily for the job of killing MEQ, but they do very well against big nids. The squad killed 3 carnifexes in a single game.

schadenfreude wrote:Thousand sons are actually good Carnifax killers in CC. The sorcerer has 4 attacks with his bolt pistol on a charge. With the mark of Tzeentch a sorcerer can use 2 psychic powers a turn so the sorcerer can activate warptime and then active his force weapon killing the carnifax after scoring a single wound. My 1750 rouge trader list has a squad of 8 thousand sons + the sorcerer in it primarily for the job of killing MEQ, but they do very well against big nids. The squad killed 3 carnifexes in a single game.

My Sorcerer Lord has killed Carnifexi before, but that doesn't mean he's good at it. You are very unlikely to get the charge given Slow and Purposeful, so you'll only have 3 attacks to work with. He has a 10.8% chance per swing of downing the Carnifex, so statistically it'll take 3 rounds of close combat to kill a Carnifex, while a CC Carnifex by this edition's standard will down about 2 Thousand Sons a turn. 6 scoring bodies for a Carnifex? I'll take the equivalent (138 points) in Lascannons, thank you.

I will sooo be checking this thread in the new year. Im looking at quite a number of battles against the new nids, and am rarely successful against them (although Im yet to play them seriously in 5th ed).

schadenfreude wrote:Thousand sons are actually good Carnifax killers in CC. The sorcerer has 4 attacks with his bolt pistol on a charge. With the mark of Tzeentch a sorcerer can use 2 psychic powers a turn so the sorcerer can activate warptime and then active his force weapon killing the carnifax after scoring a single wound. My 1750 rouge trader list has a squad of 8 thousand sons + the sorcerer in it primarily for the job of killing MEQ, but they do very well against big nids. The squad killed 3 carnifexes in a single game.

I hate matchups like this, yes, some units can do better than others against specific enemies, if your opponent can identify and negate or avoid the threat which is surprisingly easy in CC, the point is moot.

Most early tyranid armies will be MC based, with a smattering of lictors, this is mostly a function of just having the models already. They can also apparently field a very scary number of CC swarms that wound on a 4+ against /anything/ as well as probably the best medium range anti-tank in the game. Against large swarms you need to kill the synapse and then engage with medium armor where the un-synapsed bugs /must/ attack the closest enemy, a single dreadnaught can shut down an entire army should he be the closest unit and you wipe the board of synapse.

new stuff is: They have a few guns excellent at popping transports and lots of ways to get into your backfield now with deep strikers, tunnelers, improved lictors, ect. No eternal warrior and low toughness makes high str weapons and instant death weapons natural enemies, beating bugs is probably going to be properly filling your backfield with enough high str weapons to bring down the bigger bugs and then some armor to weather the un-synapsed swarm going nuts on you on the later turns. This is making the assumption that the hive tyrant isnt amazingly tough and the other synapse bugs on the board are lower toughness. Also the big anti tank guns are 18-24" range so playing tag like a tau player or focus firing them down before they get in rage of your big guns should work too.

With spore mines being nonscoring units in every way, you can expect a few of them to deepstrike onto you (if the option is still available) or at least some solid long range support from biovores which will focus on your big guns as well as some serious threats deep striking into your back ranks (if you have any)

Probably need to wait for the codex.

Megaswarms of hormis and gargs supported by medium range AT and some tough synapse filler seems to be the best list I can come up with with the limited info we have.
I think ironclads and similiar CC dreadnaughts being immune to ranged fire once in CC but able to wade into the swarms with no risk of poisoned wounds are going to be a problem for bugs.

Pods S6
Can they assault or is it just for a ranged weapon?

Pods S6
Can they assault or is it just for a ranged weapon?

No, pods are MCs:

Dedicated Transports

Yes.

Yes, there are.

Spore Capsule

You may buy a Spore Capsule for lots of units: it may transport 1 Monstrous Creature or up to 20 Infantry.

The Spore Capsule is Deep Striking, and the unit within disembarks. It may neither move nor attack. It may still shoot.

The Capsule has WS and BS 2. It has Toughness 5 or 6 and 3 Lifepoints. It has, if i remember correctly, 3 attacks S 6.

It has a Assault 6 Strength 6 shooting attack with a range of 6 inches.

From 40kOnline.

OK

Good thread OP... its not too early, we know a lot actually...

First off... I hate to say this because of your avatar... but I think plague marines might be headed for the case.

it sounds like everything in the entire army is going to have poison, which will negate your once useful T5. You'll still have an equivalent 2+ save versus non rending, non MC attacks, but points equivalent CSM will likely become the more survivable choice.

Also, against almost all nid units, winning or losing combat will not be close. Any unit in your book will crush gaunts, no troops choice you have will beat warriors/raveners/tyrants/trygons (except maybe charging berzerkers). In this case, fearless becmes overcosted. Just fall back from losing combat so the rest of your army can shoot, and fearless does nothing to a winning combat.

I don't know what lash is going to do for you, as the entire nid army, which will probably be semi-MSU is going to deep strike/pod/tunnel into your lines. Things will be plenty close enough for you to initiate charges/use blasts... and there will be too many units to successfully push enough models out of CC range. Not to mention the hive tyrants and zoans with shadow in the warp that will come down right in your face.

Strength 8 sounds a lot more important than plasma to me. Choppy troop warriors, shooty as hell zoanthropes, and raveners are nearly immune to small arms fire, but all of them are quite vulnerable to anti-tank.

I would probably go the way I'd go with space wolves...

Float power fists in CSM units and put them in rhinos with 2 meltaguns. that way you can take 2 melta shots when the nids arrive, then two more before charging them after they've wrecked your rhino. With choppy marines and a power fist, there are a few more combats you look like you can win.

If you have enough rhinos and can properly screen obliterators, then their twin linked meltaguns will be excellent warrior/zoan/rav killers, their plasma cannons will do well against genestealers and hormagaunts and their twin linked plasma guns (do they still have those?) will eat up MCs.

The vindicator is VERY tempting here. Armor 13 is just high enough to be a problem for nids on the turn they land(outside of zoans). And a well placed shot can scoop entire units of hive guard/zoanthrope/warrior/ravener.

I haven't yet run the numbers on what a choppy demon prince can do against the various MCs, or even if it can survive charging into units of ravs and warriors or even hormagaunts. Going simultaneously with 20 poisoned hormagaunts will get you 11 armor saves for your trouble. Those hormagaunts are points equivalent and a scoring unit. So it isn't really looking like fighting MCs with MCs is the answer here.

Boy, CSM need a shot in the arm... :(

Personally I've always found it quite difficult to count chickens before they hatch.

Why in the world was this thread started? We really don't know anything because the entire codex had to be sent back because GW doesn't have an editing staff and they forgot to include ALL of the special rules. How about we all just be patient and live our lives. It mystifies me as to why gamers have the obsessive need to pretend like they have the inside scoop when, in fact, no one actually does. You might, but you can't prove it in any way, shape, or form.

Some of us have already looked into the codex.
I found copied versions at a GW store and a retailer.

Call us back in six months when you've played a few games with your new Tyranid army then.

You might, but you can't prove it in any way, shape, or form.

Except by PMing me a rapidshare link to the codex. I'd take that as proof

Call us back in six months when you've played a few games with your new Tyranid army then.

Why, does speculation kill your soul or something? I find it entertaining to compare the groupthink about a codex pre-release and in intervals from then on. Sometimes people get it right, but often times the predictions miss the mark entirely.

Doesn't make the discussion any less interesting, poigniant or entertaining. Even predictions based on false rumors have value, as they illuminate why a particular design choice was made.

Actually yes, speculation does kill my soul. It would be entertaining if it wasn't so repetitive. There's the same pointless jabber codex after codex. The surprise is when people get it right about how a particular army will be positioned after its new codex has been released and in play for several months. You know why it'll be surprising? Because it has yet to happen.

If you want insight into particular design decisions, and constructive discussion, then wait for evidence rather than engage in pointless speculation.

DarkHound wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Thousand sons are actually good Carnifax killers in CC. The sorcerer has 4 attacks with his bolt pistol on a charge. With the mark of Tzeentch a sorcerer can use 2 psychic powers a turn so the sorcerer can activate warptime and then active his force weapon killing the carnifax after scoring a single wound. My 1750 rouge trader list has a squad of 8 thousand sons + the sorcerer in it primarily for the job of killing MEQ, but they do very well against big nids. The squad killed 3 carnifexes in a single game.

My Sorcerer Lord has killed Carnifexi before, but that doesn't mean he's good at it. You are very unlikely to get the charge given Slow and Purposeful, so you'll only have 3 attacks to work with. He has a 10.8% chance per swing of downing the Carnifex, so statistically it'll take 3 rounds of close combat to kill a Carnifex, while a CC Carnifex by this edition's standard will down about 2 Thousand Sons a turn. 6 scoring bodies for a Carnifex? I'll take the equivalent (138 points) in Lascannons, thank you.

2 base attacks+1 for weapon and pistol so that's 3, or 4 on a charge.

Slow and purposeful does cause some charges to fail, but opponents tend to be sloppy and underestimate thousand sons in CC.

The 10.8% chance per swing is without the re rolls to hit and to wound from warp time. With warp time it' about 25% chance of wounding a carnifex per swing, followed by an 83% change of successfully activating the force weapon. So statistically speaking if warptime is activated at the beginning of a turn a charging sorcerer with 4 attacks will have a 100% chance (25*4=100) of wounding a carnifax, followed by an 83% change of killing it by activating a force weapon.

It's not an ideal way of fighting a carnifex because it requires passing psychic tests, but it does work well as long as the sorcerer doesn't die from a perils of the warp attack.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't Carnifexi under the effect of Synapse immune to Instant Death?

Part of the notion is to isolate them from Synapse. That's what Havocs are for!

@Shelegelah:
Please read the Topic, notice the "NEW" in front of the Tyranids?
Which would then help to read the rumor thread.

On a similar note, Shelegelah is an example of why it's (at least) frustrating to start a tactica thread on rumors (even as concrete as they seem).

Shelegelah wrote:Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't Carnifexi under the effect of Synapse immune to Instant Death?

Synapse gives immunity to instant death from doubling toughness, but doesn't give immunity to instant death from other sources such as force weapons of wraithcannons.

Synapse gives immunity to instant death from doubling toughness, but doesn't give immunity to instant death from other sources such as force weapons of wraithcannons.

Except the errata as found in the current Tyranid FAQ states they ignore Instant Death rule completely.

Both our math was off. I forgot about the re-roll on the to-wound, and I don't know where you erred. The total chance of the Sorcerer killing a Carnifex is 18.6% per swing (including the psychic roll for the Force Weapon). While not utterly terrible, it will still take three rounds of combat to kill the Carnifex, and that beast will still claim atleast 6 Thousand Sons. Even if you kill the Carnifex, your squad is crippled, and unreliable as a scoring unit. Its a desperation move at best.

Also, I found Shep's analysis really interesting. While I don't think I'll be putting away the Plague Marines, I'll have to be more careful with them. It'll be interesting when my Obliterators actually have to use their short ranged weapons. Twin-linked Flamers, hoo!

Both our math was off.

And it is still wrong because you are assuming every wound has a chance to force weapon -- only one chance per player turn, regardless of how many actual wounds are caused.

Correct math (assuming WS3 carnifex and warptime)
Chance to inflict a wound with one attack = 8/9 to hit * 11/36 to wound = ~27.16% = w
Chance to wound at least once with 3 attacks = 1- chance to not wound 3 times in a row = 1-(1-w)^3 = ~61.35% = W
Chance to FW a carni with warptime on 3 attacks = 11/12 * W = ~56.24%

The math for 4 attacks is similar, but you'd want to include the chance of 4 successful wounds as well as the FW chance. It is around 66% by rough calc. Also should probably figure in the chance of failing the warptime and the results without it to be perfectly fair, but I have better things to do

Ah, that would be why. Carnifexi that you'd be close enough to melee are going to be WS4. That is the game breaker for you.

Anyway, it is a bad idea, don't do it. Thousand Sons are bad, leave them in your box.

If wild speculation is correct and Carnifex are to be limited to Sv3+, then we may have another reason to put Thousand Suns on the board.

No, no, rapid firing and trying to roll 6s with what is still an incredably over-specialized model is not a viable solution. Get a Lascannon, or a Plasma Gun, or something that has over a 40% chance of doing damage per shot (not to mention being useful against any other army aswell).

Considering that the Thousand Suns can walk away from the Carnifex and still shoot up to 24" range, I'd be willing to risk rolling lots of 5-.

Take 9 Thousand Suns, because it's easy to crunch the numbers. At 12" and under, you would get 18 shots. On average 12 would hit. On average 2 would wound. At 13-24" you would get 9 shots, 6 hits, 1 wound. In fact, this is one of the few situations where an Aspiring Sorcerer with a Bolt of Change would be a good idea.

Thousand Suns are plenty useful against other armies. Their ability to shoot up to 24" as they advance, resist AP3- weapons, rapid fire prior to assaulting, and have AP3 shots is handy. They also make good escorts for Sorcerers of Tzeentch.

A challenger appears! This'll be fun.

Nurglitch wrote:Considering that the Thousand Suns can walk away from the Carnifex and still shoot up to 24" range, I'd be willing to risk rolling lots of 5-.

wat

Take 9 Thousand Suns, because it's easy to crunch the numbers. At 12" and under, you would get 18 shots. On average 12 would hit. On average 2 would wound. At 13-24" you would get 9 shots, 6 hits, 1 wound. In fact, this is one of the few situations where an Aspiring Sorcerer with a Bolt of Change would be a good idea.

Or you can spend just as many points on Lascannons or Plasmaguns and deal wounds faster and more efficiently.

Thousand Suns are plenty useful against other armies. Their ability to shoot up to 24" as they advance, resist AP3- weapons, rapid fire prior to assaulting, and have AP3 shots is handy. They also make good escorts for Sorcerers of Tzeentch.

I'll adress these in the order presented. The first two I'll deal with together. You know why we ride in Rhinos; it isn't to move any faster, but to ignore anti-infantry weapons while we move. We don't want to fire while we advance, because even Marines go down to anti-infantry fire. Without the Rhino you leave yourself incredably vulnerable to all sorts of potshots, and Thousand Sons are very expensive to lose. You shouldn't be firing while you're advancing, and if you are they won't be wasting AP3 or better weapons at you. You just force all the anti-infantry rounds that can't go anywhere else yet down on them.

"...rapid fire prior to assaulting" with the only unit not equiped with 2 close combat weapons? The only time this is viable is when you need the 4++ for tarpitting, and there are more cost efficient choices for that (Lesser Daemons).

AP3 shots are handy, but your opponent knows this too. Swarm armies don't care, and MEQs will hug to cover and focus fire on the TS until they aren't a threat (which will take a turn or so). The fact that the AP3 shots are backed up by S4 let them down.

A defiler might be of use then?

You know what Winterman, you're right. This is absolutely entertaining... Because no one knows the real stats, what's happening with synapse, how fexes will be affected by it, or what rules they'll be under or not under. But the thread still goes on! And it lapses into discussions of the current codex, which is, of course, the only thing we know about for certain.

So, Angry Gretchin, enjoy the tactics thread for the current bugs list until it gets replaced and all of the old dogs get to learn a bunch of new tricks and everyone gets to be confused again for a month or so.

And, in case you're wondering, defilers are great against bugs. Big ones, small ones, any of them. Flamers and big templates are the bane of any horde army, no matter how tough they might be. And since bugs have no AT that's reliably effective at range, just keep the big spider safe from outflankers and it'll do plenty of damage.

Well, some of us already looked into the new codex.
The GW stores and my retailer, Spieleland HH, got copied versions.
So not all comments are as innocent as they might look.

But it's then a pretty limited discussion...how far do you expect to get.
Certainly the juices are flowing, but it's not wildly useful at the moment IMO.

People are mixing things up, people are uninformed, I guess it's a love/hate thing to these sorts of things.

I enjoy getting the information, but it sort of sounds like people are just showing off they got to see the codex behind the counter first...at least I get that sort of vibe a little.

Nurglitch wrote:Considering that the Thousand Suns can walk away from the Carnifex and still shoot up to 24" range, I'd be willing to risk rolling lots of 5-.

Take 9 Thousand Suns, because it's easy to crunch the numbers. At 12" and under, you would get 18 shots. On average 12 would hit. On average 2 would wound. At 13-24" you would get 9 shots, 6 hits, 1 wound. In fact, this is one of the few situations where an Aspiring Sorcerer with a Bolt of Change would be a good idea.

Thousand Suns are plenty useful against other armies. Their ability to shoot up to 24" as they advance, resist AP3- weapons, rapid fire prior to assaulting, and have AP3 shots is handy. They also make good escorts for Sorcerers of Tzeentch.

and what is your game plan when I don't expose my carni's to your single short/medium range counter squad o wise one? XD

Thousand Sons are going to be just as bad against the new Nids as they were and are against anything else.

Reason #1 is that 1k Sons are simply grossly overcosted for 5th "Cover Saves Are Everywhere" Edition, and they still die just like a normal marine to anything Ap4 or higher (which is basically every gun in the 'Nid codex).

Reason #2 is that the new Tyranid codex has created multiple new dynamic deployment options for Big Nids. Drop pods and tunneling give MCs new options for getting into their huggable range, presenting far greater mobility than when they previously had to footslog across the table. Thinking that you'll somehow get to stand your Slow and Purposeful gunline in the corner and take pot shots at charging MCs for 24" is bogus.

Reason #3 is that with the changes to synapse, unit classifications, deployment options, and point costs, little bugs, especially little bugs with Poison/Furious Charge, are going to be very viable. 1k Sons are complete failure against Orks and they'll continue to be a complete failure against swarms of Horma/Termagaunts and Gargoyles.

Reason #4 is that to really take advantage of 1kSon's only real offensive measure, Ap3 boltguns, you have to not be in a transport (or content with the utter failure that is 2 boltguns firing from the top hatch). 25-50 ppm Marines simply can't afford to be standing in a field against a list that can drop 20 Termagaunts spewing dakka on their heads.

The units that will be useful for CSM are the same units that are useful against everybody else. Small Plague Marine squads will be pretty good because of their ability to shrug off little bugs in the shooting or assault phase, and their ability to ignore the majority of Tyranid long range firepower with 3+/FNP. Zerks will be pretty good at killing bugs of all sizes. Basic CSM will be good because they're just a cheap, solid troop choice that can tote two special weapons. Havok-launcher Rhinos, Oblits, Preds, CC Defilers, and Daemon Princes round out the army.

1kSons, Bikes, Raptors, and Possessed did not somehow become any better or more viable than they already were. Chaos players will take the exact same fundamental cookie-cutter units that they were before, and continue to do about as well as before.

Grundz:

Then the Thousand Suns volley whatever target is in range. Duh.

Darkhound:

Just as "5+" means rolling 5 & 6, "5-" means rolling 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5. Taking the risk of rolling these is not the same as actually rolling these however, so limiting the value of weapons to efficiency and speed of wounding really misses the efficacy of high volumes of fire - if you get even slightly lucky then the Thousand Suns will murder a Carnifex each turn. Plasma Guns, for example, are more dangerous to use, and Lascannons costly (and may have other targets), and both come on more vulnerable platforms.

Something I think you fail to appreciate, Darkhound, is that despite the Tyranid Codex being an unknown quantity, the Tyranids themselves will not change except to increase their anti-tank. Cowering your Thousand Suns in a Rhino is the wrong way to go about using them because the Tyranids will close quickly and will shred those Rhinos.

If the Thousand Suns absorb a metric fuq-ton of anti-infantry fire, then that's anti-infantry fire that's not going into the rest of your army, because depending on vehicles to protect your squads is conventional thinking that does not apply to fighting an army that does not itself have vehicles, and that will need every last drop of firepower. Holding back on your own anti-infantry firepower will see the list-hammer CSM armies mulched. Speaking of firepower, of course you should assault with Thousand Suns. They add a volume of attacks to any assault. Now, if you're stupid enough to engage in single-unit assaults, of course that's going to look like a bad idea, but using them as part of an assault, say in combination with Lesser Daemons, Chaos Dreadnoughts, etc, then you can start applying leverage.

For example, suppose your Thousand Suns are faced with a Carnifex and a swarm of 30 Termagants. You don't want to sit back and let the Termagants shoot you up and the Carnifex to gain charging bonuses. You shoot the Termagants, charge both units (minimal Carnifex, maximal Termagants), and use the over-flow of wounds caused on the Termagants to win the combat and inflict No Retreat! wounds on the Carnifex. That's if the Aspiring Sorcerer doesn't murder the Carnifex first.

It's the same with Orks. You don't charge a mob of 30 Orks with a unit of Thousand Suns because you expect them to perform as well as Berzerkers, or even Chaos Space Marines, you charge that mob because receiving the charge would be handing the advantage to the Ork player - you deny them a shooting phase, charge advantage, and lock them into combat with something nasty to wander over and wipe them out.

Using the AP3 shots to lower the Tyranid's saving throws from Sv3+ to Cv4+ and so on will

In other words, the fact that the Thousand Suns will roll 1/6 wounds on average has little to say about what they actually will roll.

Nurglitch wrote:If the Thousand Suns absorb a metric fuq-ton of anti-infantry fire...

They won't. Against Ap4+ weapons, they're just Marines. Really, really expensive Marines. This statement would be true of Plague Marines, but definitely not 1k Sons.

and use the over-flow of wounds caused on the Termagants to win the combat and inflict No Retreat! wounds on the Carnifex. That's if the Aspiring Sorcerer doesn't murder the Carnifex first.

Even if such mythical situations exist (considering the giant squad of footslogging Slow and Purposeful 1ksons would somehow have to get this close without being shot to pieces) Plague Marines or Khorne Berzerkers do it better and cheaper.

It's the same with Orks. You don't charge a mob of 30 Orks with a unit of Thousand Suns because you expect them to perform as well as Berzerkers, or even Chaos Space Marines, you charge that mob because receiving the charge would be handing the advantage to the Ork player - you deny them a shooting phase, charge advantage, and lock them into combat with something nasty to wander over and wipe them out.

The difference being that while Plague Marines are durable enough to weather the assault and Berzerkers are powerful enough to win through CC resolution, 1kSons are going to get hacked to pieces. It's like killing a grizzly bear by shoving your body into its mouth to choke it to death. Lose/Lose.

And then you consider that your squad is running 300 points to "tie up" a 180 point unit.... You're willingly allowing an expensive firebase unit to get tarpitted by a squad of inexpensive blob bugs. That's definitely not Tactical Genius.

In other words, the fact that the Thousand Suns will roll 1/6 wounds on average has little to say about what they actually will roll.

Any "plan" that relies on rolling a bunch of 6s invariably fails far more often than not.

Instead of discussing hour after hour I'll just give you a simple advice:
Play your sons in some real fights on the table and see how they'll do against Nids and the rest. If they work for you and kill fex after fex they're just fine, play 'em. And if not... that's how things work. Murphy's law is cruel, I know it from my own experiences .
I don't believe that the sons are actually bad, they're just overcostet 2 points per model and the bloody magus you're forced to take makes em really expensive (60 points for an unequiped sarge...). It's a shame, as a Space Wolf I would like the idea to actually face the sons in battle for some real fluffy duel. But outside fluff lists you won't find them too quickly.
If you like the models (like I do), take them and play them, not everything in the hobby is about "point-effectivnes" .

AK-47 will eliminate any nid players. Otherwise, wait till the codex out before making any conclusion.

Ragnar Blackmane:

That's some good advice, but the problem is that you can't just throw units on the table and just them by your experience. You have to have some pre-existing criteria by which to judge them because it may be the case that you, the player, misuse them, and don't recognize that you're misusing them.

Speaking of pre-existing criteria, what we do know is their capabilities, which is really what most people know about them. Unfortunately this is about as far as discussions in the Tactics Forum go, which is unfortunate because it doesn't really reach a tactical level, which is both what you have and what you can do with it in combination with other elements of the army. If it goes any further, it's usually something screamingly obvious, like the Lash of Submission.

So what are the capabilities of the Thousand Suns? Let's consider the Aspiring Sorcerer. Sixty points bare. Pretty expensive, eh? No, actually.

Take an Aspiring Champion, who is 30 points. Then add a Power Weapon. That's 45 points. Then add Iv5+ and a Mark of Tzeentch on top of that for Iv4+. Let's call that 5 points. Then add the Inferno Bolts on the Aspiring Sorcerer's Bolt Pistol. And then factor in Instant Kill power of the Force Weapon. Call those 5 points altogther. And then add in the Psychic Powers, two of which can be cast in combination thanks to the Mark of Tzeentch. Another 5 points.

The Aspiring Sorcerer is therefore pretty much equivalent in points value to any other Champion character in the Codex. With Warptime he'll outfight and outshoot them.

But that's almost irrelevant compared to how you should use that Aspiring Sorcerer and his minions. Tyranids bring out how they need to be used, or at least the last Codex did, because you can't play Tyranids and win by skulking around in transports hoping that Heavy Weapons and special weapons will be able to do all the work.

No you don't skulk around in your transports. You drive up and broadside Genestealers or Gaunts with your rapid firing bolters. Anything bigger than that does get killed by heavy and special weapons because bolters are ineffective. Chaos Space Marines don't sprinkle fire into the enemy for a few turns. We make large strokes. Thousand Sons want to be used like Space Marines, firing at range to wear the enemy down, but nothing else in the codex fights like that. Noise Marines, Obliterators, and Predators all aim to annihilate their targets at range. Berserkers, Plague Marines, and just about everything else in the codex fight in close, unafraid of melee. Thousand Sons are an awkward middle; need to rapid fire to maximize their damage, but this risks close combat where they are ineffective. They are bad because the codex they are in doesn't want to synergize with them.

As for your analysis of the Champion: so the Sorcerer is priced about right. That still doesn't mean the 60 point investment is worth it. With Warptime he makes one really good pistol shot, and he fights some-what well in close combat, but he can't pull the entire squad through in combat. A regular Champion fights almost as well for less points, but he also has a squad backing him up that can fight in close.

Darkhound:

No, I'd say that Thousand Suns work best when they're right up in the enemy's noses, either using their Slow and Purposeful to control the range so that the enemy can only shoot back, or closing to lock the enemy in close combat.

Because that's all they need to do. The Chaos Space Marine list has plenty of close combat troops, as you point out. The Thousand Suns synergize with the rest of the list by providing that dangerous front line that can wear down the enemy, lock them in combat, provide cover without needing it themselves, and so on.

You shouldn't charge with the Thousand Suns planning to defeat another unit in combat, you're going to charge with them to lock a unit in combat until you can bring something in to defeat that unit, something that the other player will be trying hard to shoot or avoid. Most likely they will be charged, but you can use their ability to move and shoot to its best ability by either drawing the enemy in to be locked in the right place, or to avoid being assaulted while they continue to add a considerable volume of firepower.

Now clearly I'm not saying that the Thousand Suns are better than Berzerkers, Chaos Space Marines, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, or Lesser Daemons. I'm saying that they have their place in a Chaos Space Marine strategy because they have a different role from all the other Troop choices. They complement all the other choices well, and synergize nicely with assault troops. In a pinch they'll add redundancy to Plague Marines and Chaos Space Marines as objective holders,

I think that their role will be highlighed by the new Tyranid army list when most other armies will have to adapt to an infantry-based mobile firepower strategy to counter the new "in your face" Tyranid army, and the Tyranid army itself will show the utility of locking the enemy in place so that the heavy hitters can be brought in to mop up.

Usually I'd be adverse to speculation, but this isn't speculation so much as conservative risk management applying what we already know about 40k tactics, and the 40k environment. The Chaos Space Marines can already do what it seems that the Tyranids will soon be doing (see here).

The biggest considerations for a CSM player against the new nids that we can confirm beyond any doubt, being that they are in the newest White Dwarf, a battlerep between Nids and Salamanders is as follows.

1) Zoanthropes get a str 10 ap 1 lance, unknown range, but if it is 36 or more ouch.

2) The venomthrope gives a global cover save to units around it, probably within 6 inches. Nothing flamers don't waste, but the hi strength ranged attacks will have to get through it.

3) The Mawloc has a Str 6 Ap 2 large blast attack on the turn it deep strikes. It can burrow into the ground and repeat this process, think of it as eldar skyleap on roids.

4) Last and possibly most annoying, the two large burrowing units, Trygon and Mawloc respectivly, leave a tunnel behind from their burrowing when the erupt out of the ground, (deepstrike), any other smaller nid unit can use these tunnels to enter play as though comming off the board edge. Guy builds his army right everything is going to come in from reserve and he is going to have damn near his entire army in your backfield.


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assualting and tieing up your shooty units while those previously harmless broods of carnifex walk up unmolested and hit you with a whole wack of attacks ignoring armour save.

Venomthropes also have poisoned attacks, and apparently everyone else will be able to buy poisoned attacks. This may mean the fall of the Daemon Prince.

Doubled: The range of the thrope is 18" mate, so you will be in range of it before it gets a chance to fire.

Venomthropes will be a problem again, but this can be solved.




My suggestions:

Double lash spam with 9 oblits has worked wonders over time, and again it will shine.
Lash units out of cover then pour fire into them.
Pick out synapse creatures to ruin control of the small critters.
Lash maw/try's as soon as possible.
Once you move them back and out the way just pour fire into them.


I'd go with a basic fire-line style army here.
Plagues are nice, but the chances are nid players aint dumb, so MC's will be removing those 3+ FNP wounds quickly.
I'd go with Ksons for the shooting perspective.

Also, if you dont want to take 9 oblits, i would go with defilers.
You need as many template / high strength shots as possible.

Just deploy on the table edge and go with tau tactics.
Shoot in priority, using lash to move units into better possitions and target them.
Fex's can pretty much be ignored if they are CC, if ranged then they pose a bit more of a threat.

I'd say work on tyrants and the trygons / mawlocs 1st.
Since they tend to be the biggest threat.
If you have alot of armour in your army then thropes need to go down quickly.
after that just pick away at synapse beasts.
If a fex gets too close too quickly then sacrifice a unit to hold it off, rather than divert shooting towards it.

Do we know anything about the "Shadow of the Warp" ability, is it getting redone, taken out, staying the same or what?

According to the Rumours Roundup on Warseer the Shadow In The Warp now has a range of 12".

Nurglitch wrote:Grundz:
Then the Thousand Suns volley whatever target is in range. Duh.

The point being, that you fielding a slow, short range, expensive, silly unit with the hopes of being able to counter a single unit in your opponents army that can /easily/ be countered by a chaper, longer range heavy weapons squad that could engage the carni's at will anywhere on the map. Your opponent would have to be braindead to let you assault a squad of gaunts and the carni at once, and on top of that half or more of most early tyranid armies they are no more effective against than normal marines.

Realistically if your opponent was /that/ scared of silly 1k sons, he would run his MC bait near the edge of the map and either drop pod them or outflank them with stealers. /most/ of what you are facing are either going to not get a save even if they were normal bolters, or are going to get a cover save from the bugs that wouldn't get a save normally. If this was 4th edition i could see them being used to walk down the middle of the map and create a sphere of relative protection from dangerous CC anti tank to funnel your rhino's through, but I'm not really getting a comprehensive army strategy like that from you, I'm getting silly "well i'll just do this haha i win" abstract scenarios that takes nothing into account in either persons army, that belong in the "beat this unit" thread, not the tactics forum.

He who plays his army better generally wins, not he who runs a single gimmicky unit that he hopes his opponent bumbles into with the one unit they stand a good chance at killing.

Grundz:

Yeah, that's the ticket...

Seriously, do you even bother reading?

I don't know what Grundz is talking about either, and I'm playing the Devil's Advocate.

While the Thousand Sons may be slow (Rhino's make that irrelevant), they are not short ranged. Rhino moves them 12", they can still shoot out to 24". That's 36" range AP3 bolters. MEQ players are not allowed to leave cover, ever.

As for finding targets for the AP3 Bolters, every army has some. Most of what you will play are MEQ, and anything that isn't has something as large as a Marine that deserves special attention ('Nid Warriors, Incubi, Aspect Warriors, etc). If you are taking Thousand Sons, you really can't count them as part of your anti-infantry. They are specialized for killing heavily armored targets at range.

Getting the Thousand Sons to perform is not a gimmick. It is a full-blown skill.

Thousand Sons would be an option to take on MC's with 3+ saves.
As DarkHound said, they should be transported in a Rhino to ge their job done.
Moving 12'', disembarking, and rapid firing.
But then they are eventually left in the open and the bugs could counter charge.
The TS will die as they are not cc specialists.
At the end, you took a 300 pt unit to take on a 160 pt Carnifex.

I would say the biggest advantage chaos has vs. the Tyranids is Abaddon. He already goes through every bug like a hot knife through butter. Add in the fact he can now instant kill warriors and ravenors and that means there is nothing ready to stop him rampaging through the bug army.

yeah but abbadon is countered by genestealers rending the crap out of him at I 6,


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the answer nids have for any choas infantry unit is genestealers with broadlords, rending and then a bucket full of saves need to be taken due to hi I and S, and WS

Abby? I don't get why everyone likes him and sees him an answer for most things.
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There's not much different in how I would approach Tyranids than I normally do.

Stay in Rhinos as long as possible...I'm not too worried about Gaunts.
I'd have to baby my DP's and use them as MC counter attackers, while OBlits will focus on targets that present themselves...

Prob. the best thing to do is consolidate and not spread out...keep a counter attack unit ready.

Stuff like that.

Abaddon is not a match up for Nids.
I'd more rely on shooting like a Defiler with its S8 shell. Ouch!
In the new edition, this will cause instant death.

wuestenfux:

It'll cause Instant Death on T4- Tyranids, much like Abbadon will. A Defiler will likely be more useful for the large blast and Twin-Linked Heavy Flamethrower.

I think Chaos Space Marine players will be forced to start using Nurgle's Rot more often.

Typhus will definitely be better than Abbadon when it comes to Tyranids.

I think Chaos Space Marine players will be forced to start using Nurgle's Rot more often.

Right. Nurgle's rot is good vs. creatures with low armor saves.

Another question: What kind of troops would you suggest vs. Nids?

wuestenfux wrote:

I think Chaos Space Marine players will be forced to start using Nurgle's Rot more often.

Right. Nurgle's rot is good vs. creatures with low armor saves.

Another question: What kind of troops would you suggest vs. Nids?

Plaguers, Berserkers, Marheens, Loud Marheens, sometimes even Dust Buckets if you are so inclined (apparently). Seriously, we'll be ready for this.

Nurgle's Rot is good against models with low armour saves, but it's good against armies with lots of models like Imperial Guard, Orks, and Tyranids. It's even handy against Space Marines that clump up seeing as more armour saves rolled are more armour saves failed. Sanctjud's tactic of turtling up, and therefore bringing the Tyranids to you, would be another way of getting models concentrated in the 13" diameter kill-zone.

I would suggest Chaos Space Marines, Khorne Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Thousand Suns, Noise Marines, and Lesser Daemons as Troops to use against Tyranids.

I'm of the opinion that they're all good if used correctly, and in combination (that combination being governed by the interaction of flexibility, redundancy, and synergy).

For example, using Thousands Suns as front-line Troops to form a picket line, Berzerkers to form counter-charge units, Noise Marines as close-support, Plague Marines as objective campers, and Lesser Daemons to engage in screening. The Noise Marines and Thousand Suns offer redundancy to each other in terms of firepower, the Thousand Suns and Lesser Daemons offer redundancy in terms of screening and pickets, the Plague Marines and Noise Marines are redundant second-line Troops (objectives and close support), and the Chaos Space Marines can be redundant for everyone depending on how you configure them. Etc, ad nauseum.

The exact configuration of Troops depends on your strategy, and the tactics you plan to employ to implement that strategy.

I'd consider troops transported in Rhinos for speed and protection purposes.
Normal CSM units with 2 special weapons of the same type should not be underestimated.

wuestenfux:

I certainly don't under-estimate them: they're what my own army is modeled on!

Very good analysis of the strategical usage of the CSM troops choices Nurglitch.

I do not personally see CSM players as needing too make much in the way of changes to prepare for the new Tyranids. Lash with Oblits/vindicators/defilers are still going to be as effective, as will zerkers and normal CSM. While some units like plague marines will find themselves a bit more vulnerable due to the abundance of poison, it will add another tactical element to the game - plague marines will still be used in tourny lists due to their resilience against non-poison.

Poison means what?
Wounding on 2+ but not negating armor saves.
So PM will be better than any other MEQ unit against poison.

Dracos wrote:While some units like plague marines will find themselves a bit more vulnerable due to the abundance of poison, it will add another tactical element to the game - plague marines will still be used in tourny lists due to their resilience against non-poison.

Plague Marines are still going to be better off than everyone else for the most part. If rumors are to believe, 10 points Gaunts will chew through MEQs through sheer hitting power (re-roll ones to hit, Furious Charge to S4 I5 with Poisoned Attacks, so they'll swing first and wound 75%). Plague Marines are still T5, so they don't get the Poison re-roll, and Blight Grenades dramatically reduce their attacks. No, Plague Marines will stay despite the poison.

Wustenfex, Poison Weapons are defined on page 42 of the BRB.

Darkhound, the tone of your post said to me you were disagreeing, but the words said the same thing...


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Dracos wrote:plague marines will still be used in tourny lists due to their resilience against non-poison.

DarkHound wrote:No, Plague Marines will stay despite the poison.

I was merely pointing out that Plague Marines are still better off than everyone else against the poisoned attacks. They are more durable than anyone else in the game against any kind of small arms, and will continue to be invaluable against 'Nids.

Darkhound has a point:

So long as the Poisoned Attacks are S4-, then they'll only wound on a 4+ without a re-roll and the Plague Marines will get both their Armour Save and Feel No Pain roll. That'll be better than basic Chaos Space Marines against whom S4 Poisoned Attacks will get re-rolls to wound, and who won't get Feel No Pain. Even if th Chaos Space Marines have an Icon of Nurgle, they won't get the Feel No Pain.

However, the combination of Rending and Poison will murder Plague Marines only slightly less effectively that anything else, and Monstrous Creatures will continue to make a mockery of their extra Toughness and Feel No Pain.

It doesn't change what they do, or their role, but it will punish the players who treat them as the only Chaos Space Marine infantry worth taking.*

*Said players may be imaginary, but you get my point, right?

the combination of Rending and Poison will murder Plague Marines

Will this combination be an option in the new 'Nids codex?

Warriors (as Troops), Raveners, Gene-Stealers... Ymarglmomma Gene-Stealers... Maybe Gargoyles will get it since they want to sell the plastic kit... Venomthropes... Pyrovores will probably be able to take it too... Yeah, literally anything bigger than a Gaunt can take it.

We'll have to wait and see, though I will be you a donut that it will be available to Warriors.

Humm I did just crunch numbers and you are in fact correct, and normal CSM are affected greater by the poison than the plague marines (not counting FNP, just toughness). I figured the PM would be worse off, but that assumption was incorrect. Math ftw.

DarkHound wrote:Warriors (as Troops), Raveners, Gene-Stealers...

My goodness, this will goint to be tough for the enemy.
The best way to deal with the bugs is to shoot them.

My tyranid friend is not going to be happy about taking away leaping. He ran a unit of leaping warriors with scything talons. Not only that, but he runs a broodlord as his HQ always (doesn't even have a HT in his 2.5k of nids).

There'll be a Warrior Alpha HQ choice, which will buff Warriors into rampaging utter, kill-all machines (it makes them WS6). However, if he likes the Broodlord, he can now take one as an upgrade to every Stealer Squad.

So, if your opponent wants to max out on this with Stealer Shock, what will you do? Defilers and Dreads?

Lesser Daemons!

Nurglitch wrote:Lesser Daemons!

We should elaborate on that. DO NOT CHARGE WITH YOUR LESSERS! It just gives them a free consolidation move.

Put them in a line directly in front of the Stealers and shoot at them. In the next phase, your opponent will either have to go all the way around the Lessers or Assault into them and only get the consolidation move that turn. Either way, he isn't going anywhere quickly. This will buy you a turn, sometimes two to back up and get some range on the Stealers so you can shoot at them like any sane individual would do.

Yup. Get some cheap picket units of 5 Daemons each, and use them as speed-bumps to slow down the Genestealers and/or force them to endure point-blank ranged firepower.

As far as I remember there are winged Warriors as fast attack.

It would certainly defeat the whole purpose of the game, or at least re-releasing the Tyranid army, if we could pull perfect counter-tactics out of our collective butts before putting models on the table.