Well I've played a number of games of 40K and WFB to get back into the GW hobby, but I can honestly say I have not enjoyed it.

I find the armies and the gameplay as boring as when I left them many years ago. Nothing has changed and I feel that little else will.

Another reason to defect is because of the price of the miniatures - they are for lack of a better term - extortionate.

With a young family (soon to be increased in size by one) I find it impossible to balance a hobby like GW around my family commitments - if anyone else has this problem, please comment.

I'm going back to play Warmachine/Hordes.

I find PP are more value for money - especially with the Retribution as you get a full unit per box, the games are much more fun, there are less models to purchase and for someone like me who has limited hobby time due to deadlines and family commitments, it's a perfect comprimise.

Anyone else care to comment???

cya

First off, I would like to say that fun is an opinion, and my opinion of PP games is rather low. So we sit on different sides of the fence on that matter.

I can understand your feeling and that you feel the GW is rather expensive [be thankful you don't have to buy all your models of FW, but they look great]. However I feel that they are an ok price for the quality they produce.

I on the other hand don't have a family to look after.

I personally am siding with GW on this one

So, do you have any models that you want to sell off for cheap?

Privateer FTW.

Nurglitch wrote:So, do you have any models that you want to sell off for cheap?

Not many.

A DA Battleforce, some 1K sons and a daemon prince is all i got i think.

I can't ship out of the UK though.

If time and family is a concern you might look at one of the prepainted games. There's something nice about instant gratification.

Games Workshop, over the course of its lifespan, has made plenty of mistakes. White Dwarf is pretty bad as it is, the new website is a tad rubbish, prices climbing, etc.

However, which company hasn't? I'm not asking you to not quit, or to love GW heart and soul, but the company is obviously trying. Now, trying and failing, now that depends on your point of view, but at least they try.

But it seems that the GW hobby is just not working out for you, which can be seen as quite understandable. I hope you enjoy Privateer Press, as Hordes/Warmachine always seemed like a nice game, one that I have always wanted to dabble in.

P.S.

Gah, no cheap models to buy.

Have fun with Privateer dude. Hope the grass is greener for you.

I'm the opposite of you pretty much, I can't seem to get inspired by Warmachine/Hordes for the life of me. My enjoyment of WHFB/40K just can't seem to die away and I owe that to the great group of folks I game with.

To each his own. From what I see people buying, the amount spent by Warmachine players easily rivals the amount spent by the average GW player. And of course there is are a good amount who buy both.

But play the game you have the most fun with.

I used to buy both, but realized that I played one every week and the other only once
in a blue moon. One thing lead to another and suddenly I'm running small Warmachine
events at the LGS.

The funny thing is, I do have a Fantasy game (or two) over winter break, but once
that break is over it's back to the grind (no pun intended as I haven't modified
my grind boardgame jacks yet) for me.

I play Warmachine/Hordes at least once a week, and with the field test for hordes
extended into January I feel like I'll actually be able to give feedback on this one.

radiohazard wrote:

I find PP are more value for money - especially with the Retribution as you get a full unit per box, the games are much more fun, there are less models to purchase and for someone like me who has limited hobby time due to deadlines and family commitments, it's a perfect comprimise.

This statement in itself, proves the power behind Privateer press.

The fact that the customer feels that there is more 'value' is truly strong.

Because I feel this way as well, and I collect both GW and PP. I actually feel ok buying something at PP retail (even though i barely do).

Even though in truth WM/H does cost a lot still to go up competitive,


It just 'feels' better. heh.

The hobbyist in my is tempted by the nice kits from GW, but when I want to play PP is the game for me.

In my opinion the WM/ Hordes rules are much tighter and contain less of loop holes and plain stupid rules (LOS and casualty removal in 40k) than the GW rules.

In addition with the limited hobby time I enjoy painting the PP armies as I don't have to paint as many identical grunts for WM/ Hordes, usually one unit is all I need.

Therefore I have been playing only PP's games in the past few years. I still follow what is happening in 40k, but haven't had much inspiration to paint or play my armies. Even the SW upgrade didn't push my to upgrade or play with my favorite 40k army.

Personally, I've stopped buying either. Got rather bored with both universes/styles of game.

There's a lotto the argument that PP is just GW but 15 years later...

Sure they've learned a lot from GW's mistakes where GW have chosen not to, but ultimately I find them just as sterile and devoid of new ideas.

I played 40k, WFB, LotR and WotR a handful of times last year. I played WM once (got a bit sidetracked with MkII - sort of took the shine off playing MkI, but I can't be bothered relearning the rules for the new edition, even though I think PP handled the transition well) and Hordes not at all (even though I have a decent sized army picked up for buttons in a firesale) - there's something about the IP that just doesn't really interest me any more. It just seems too "silly" perhaps? Dunno. Don't really care enough to analyze my reasons.

Basically I just find myself bored playing in the same old game and like trying new stuff and original stuff, rather than getting too deep into an old game.

My current kick is 1:72 scale WWII - now that's a cheap way of gaming! Knocks GW and PP into a cocked hat for price, and there are so many systems out there to try, you're bound to find one you enjoy. I'm also feeling big about "naval" operations - on sea or in space - so I'm enjoying US, F:A and even BFG and of course FT a lot as well.

To be honest, I'm gradually shying away from 28mm and into smaller scales for choice. I just can't summon up the enthusiasm to paint the bigger models in any quantity these days, although I still enjoy the feeling of fielding an army I painted myself. I get more satisfaction churning out the less demanding smaller figures - which look just fine on the table with a very simple basecoat/wash/drybrush and can be produced in large numbers for little money and time.

The older I get, the less I can be bothered to paint figures up to anything more than a basic level. I recently came across some LotR figures that had got misplaced in my store boxes, that I had painted 5 years back, and I was staggered by how well I had bothered to paint them - they were just simple Uruk-hai models, but I had taken real care and layered them very nicely. Nowadays there's no way I could be bothered to go to those lengths. I acquired a box of 5 Malifaux figs a few weeks back, and I just bashed them out in two nights - base coat, wash, drybrush and bang you're done. Looked just fine from 3 feet away, which is as close as I'll ever get. A few years back they'd have taken me a fortnight easy and I'd have layered, and even maybe tried NMM on such well-sculpted models. Not now. It's strange how attitudes change over time.

Just my 2p. Doesn't in itself make PP or GW bad (although I have my problems with them for other reasons), just I find my nature and gaming opportunities favour other things these days. To be honest, my New Year's Resolution is not to buy any unpainted miniatures at all in 2010, but to paint up what I have in my backlog instead. And this year the way I'm feeling right now I suspect that I won't have much of a problem sticking to it. Any money I do spend will be on board/card games, (possibly) AT-43, Arcane Miniatures (maybe) and possibly any new rulesets that catch my eye. Any purchases will be something that are novel, don't require painting, and will have to be perceived by me as very good value for money.

Perhaps this is as much about aging as anything. I'm 41 and I'm long past believing anyone else around me (even my fellow gaming group) is remotely interested in the standard to which I paint my models, so I don't particularly feel any need to feel "pride" in my painting? Life these days feels too short to waste so much effort on something so trivial and unvaluable?

Anyway, I'm rambling (must be the age). Long live diversity!

Thing is I agree with this dude on the pricing MY GOD! the amount of money I have spent on shiney things is rediculous!! and I feel my time in the hobby running out with the distasteful looks I get from my wife every time I come in with a new battalion/battleforce or a new unit.

But I cant leave GW thats like cheating on a spouse or playing for the opposite team.

I'm going back to play Warmachine/Hordes.

I guess you're right, WM/Hordes can be more rewarding.
The models are nice, the price structure is okay and the game is fantastic.

It's not so bad.

It's only bad if you're outstripping your budget or not adjusting your budget
to adjust for large purchases.

Don't leave things on the credit card to accumulate interest.

Don't buy lots of plastic/lead AND video games/systems AND upgrade your computer.

Don't hire out to high end escort services.

It is certainly expensive, but no more so than other hobbies. Think about the cost of owning and stabling a horse, owning a small fishing boat or playing a round of golf. Per hour, are our plastic army men really that expensive?

Gitzbitah wrote:It is certainly expensive, but no more so than other hobbies. Think about the cost of owning and stabling a horse, owning a small fishing boat or playing a round of golf. Per hour, are our plastic army men really that expensive?

And the answer to that would be yes

radiohazard wrote:Well I've played a number of games of 40K and WFB to get back into the GW hobby, but I can honestly say I have not enjoyed it.

I find the armies and the gameplay as boring as when I left them many years ago. Nothing has changed and I feel that little else will.

Another reason to defect is because of the price of the miniatures - they are for lack of a better term - extortionate.

With a young family (soon to be increased in size by one) I find it impossible to balance a hobby like GW around my family commitments - if anyone else has this problem, please comment.

I'm going back to play Warmachine/Hordes.

I find PP are more value for money - especially with the Retribution as you get a full unit per box, the games are much more fun, there are less models to purchase and for someone like me who has limited hobby time due to deadlines and family commitments, it's a perfect comprimise.

Anyone else care to comment???

I think you are being a little harsh, and the idea that going over to PP is going to save you money is laughable.

Honestly? Pricewise, PP is worse for the cost.

Aye, it is fun, though with a much more varied style of play, but if you actually want to talk cost, Lets look at this.

Where I am, it cost me 43.99 for a basic box of Khador. Thats 2 jacks, and a caster. ( I picked up Sorscha, the Jug and the destroyer in that box, BTW.)

Of course that wasn't going to cut it, so I picked up another Destroyer for around 23.00, a boxed set of 6 for 25 bucks or so, (Count them 6 whole woodsman!), a manhunter for 10 bucks, 2 more packs of woodsman at 2 figures a piece for around 10 bucks each, and the blister pack of Herne Stoneground & Arquebus Honne for around 20 bucks or so. Of course the BoomHowlers do well for the added smash, so I picked up a box of them for 35.00, and two more blisters for around 20 bucks more each.
WHOOOOHOO!!!!
So. 43.99+23.00+25.00+10.00+10.00(2)+20.00+35.00+23.00+20.00(2)= 239.99, give or take. I didn't add in tax, and the prices were rough estimates, in between my morning and coffee.
3 Jacks, 1 caster, 10 woodsman, a manhunter, 10 Boomhowlers, and Herne Stoneground and Aruebus Jonne.

As oppposed to a boxed set of GW's flagship game at 50-70 bucks, one box of 16 Orks boyz at 25 bucks one squad box of space marines at 25 bucks and 2 tanks each for the Orks ( Truk) 25.00 and the Rhino for 25.00.

That is 70.00+ 25.00+25.00+25.00+25.00= 170.00 give or take. ( Thats 2 ARMIES, by the way.) small, but look at this---
Boxed set copmes with 5 terminators, 1 squad of 10 Marine guys, a Captain, and a Dreadnaught. You add in another squad, and a rhino and that is more then enough to get you out of the gate. ADD the fact that you get 1 Warboss, 20 Boyz, 5 Nobs and 3 Deathcopters, plus the added 16 Ork Boyz and the truck and you make out like a Fat Rat.

170.00, as opposed to 239-240 and some change. ( remember, I was being conservative on the PP stuff.) Of course I didn't add in tax on that stuff, but then you arn't adding the fact that PP has consistantly added more to their way of Codex Creep in a much more different way.

I started out writing a whole thing about the change in cost, but the bottom line up front is that ALL OF THESE GAMES cost money.
Some more then others, but don't fool yourself into to thinking that PP is cheaper. In anything, you invest more then just your monitary value.

Time, Effort, Painting, Scenery, etc.etc.etc. It all goes into the mix.

Have fun with whatever you want to, but don't take the rose colored glasses off from one company, just to put on another pair from another.

These games COST. That is the nature of the beast. It sucks, but that is just how things are.

Gitzbitah wrote:It is certainly expensive, but no more so than other hobbies. Think about the cost of owning and stabling a horse, owning a small fishing boat or playing a round of golf. Per hour, are our plastic army men really that expensive?

Like many people I would not be doing any of those other things if I wasn't making models. It's a bit silly to defend one expensive thing by saying there are other expensive things, owning a boat or a horse are pretty extreme examples the vast majority of people don't do these extragavant things. Fact is that if I didn't make models I'd do more reading or watch more TV or get into amature photography a bit more. I'd save a lot of money, which is pretty much why I don't buy a lot of stuff any more and tend to dig around in the old collection for things or get stuff 2nd hand. Because it is expensive in real terms, simply saying that it costs more per hour to ride a horse a couple of times a month than making GW models every night does not alter the bottom line impact on your paypacket.

Good time to be going back to PP games with the impending release of MkII Warmachine in a few weeks here. Also, since the MkII rules and model stats for every faction are available from PP as a free download in both Warmachine and Hordes (in testing), this is a very good time to establish a baseline knowledge of the entire game.

I sometimes think about playing a bit of 40k again, there must be some love there if I played for seven years and collected 5 armies right? Then I remember those turns where every model stands and shoots, or where entire armies do nothing but advance near the closest enemy - and I realize that it's not just the spotty rule set, complete lack of playtesting, logarithmic price increase pattern, or total disrespect for their playerbase that keeps me out - it's really just a much less interesting game to play from the ground up.

GW still puts out some great kits though. I've almost snagged a Valkyrie and Skaven wheelie just to paint.

I went thru several changes. I'm a painter first so I don't play that often.

I was a hardcore Rackham player. Mid-Nor and Goblins. I bugged out when they dumped Mid-Nor and went prepainted plastic.

I went to PP and painted Warmachine and then Hordes. Never played and but needed something to paint so PP was it.

I went back to GW with Apoc. Sold everything else and never looked back Glad you found what right for you radiohazard. The modeling and painting that I can do in 40k is a magnetic pull for me.

and i should care because...

Other than the Fluff (and perhaps the quality of some of its miniatures) there's really no reason to stick with GW. So if you don't find the fluff compelling it's a waste. Interestingly enough, GW is well aware of this and that explain they are much more aggressive in defending their I.P. than writing good rules etc...

To each his own. I love GW models but am not a fanboy of GW Corporate. As much as I'd like to get into Warmachine it just doesn't draw me. Can I say one is better than the other? Not really because they're two different games, styles, etc. Should my play style change and fit the Privateer ruleset, I'll head right on over. Then if I get tired, I'll come right back.

Value is in the eye of the beholder. It's not my job to convince someone that one system is better than the other. That's up to each company and their marketing/design teams. I can try to influence more players for 40k, but I can't ram it down their throats just as they can't force me to like Heroclix or any of those pre-painted-by-slave-labor-8-year-olds clicky games (shudder).

The point is to have fun. If GW isn't fun for someone, why should they keep playing. If PP isn't fun, why play? And the list goes on...

Sorry to lose a player from GW but at least he's still doing miniatures instead of saying "screw it" to all wargaming!

toymaker wrote:I went thru several changes. I'm a painter first so I don't play that often.

I was a hardcore Rackham player. Mid-Nor and Goblins. I bugged out when they dumped Mid-Nor and went prepainted plastic.

I went to PP and painted Warmachine and then Hordes. Never played and but needed something to paint so PP was it.

I went back to GW with Apoc. Sold everything else and never looked back Glad you found what right for you radiohazard. The modeling and painting that I can do in 40k is a magnetic pull for me.

Similar experience. Liked the Rackham stuff, but I like to game with what I paint. Have big painted WM and Hordes armies, liked the play, but missed the modeling and converting I can do in 40k and WFB. I've kept all my other armies and play them now and then. (FOW an odd exception, in that while you can't 'convert' a tiger, you can do a hell of a lot of modeling with and dioramas with the historicals, having fun with that, and like to get in games when I can.) I always come back to GW games for both the models, and the games.

And, as a retailer, I find GW gives me huge support. With PP, I have to spend 45.00 to run their tournament. With GW they start out by giving my shop 150.00 in prize support a month, and work up from there.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Like many people I would not be doing any of those other things if I wasn't making models. It's a bit silly to defend one expensive thing by saying there are other expensive things, owning a boat or a horse are pretty extreme examples the vast majority of people don't do these extragavant things. Fact is that if I didn't make models I'd do more reading or watch more TV or get into amature photography a bit more. I'd save a lot of money, which is pretty much why I don't buy a lot of stuff any more and tend to dig around in the old collection for things or get stuff 2nd hand. Because it is expensive in real terms, simply saying that it costs more per hour to ride a horse a couple of times a month than making GW models every night does not alter the bottom line impact on your paypacket.

Fair enough. I suppose my point was that the 2 or 3 hundred dollar army that one builds and paints ought to last you for as long as you care to play that race. Once you have the army, you're buying maybe a box a month as you slowly tweak your force. The maintenance cost is as low as you want it to be- if you have 2000 points, you don't have to change your force until a new codex comes around in 3-10 years. If you continued to supplement that force over that period of time, you shouldn't need to buy anything but the new models- and even those would be a matter of preference.

Our hobby has a high initial buy in, but very little in the way of maintenance cost. An 8 hour tournament generally costs 10 dollars or so at my FLGS. I wonder what the average game really spends on the hobby per month- for me, the number would probably be 20-50$ a month. There are certainly months where that is much higher, but that's my average consumption per year. That's cheaper than cable. I just don't regard it as an expensive hobby, over the long term.

Well I personally think the pp minis look way too funny for my taste and they aren't exactly el cheapo and working with metal minis would be pain in the ass.

But why you don't find in warhammer enjoyable to play? In my latest game with 40k 10 howling bashees emerged from a sewer behind my troops (I had 4 nurgle csm though last time these banshees killed my noise marines and khorne berzerkes). Banshees killed 2 and rest of them fleed of the board. My opponent commented with following: "oh look mighty csm running away after they get beaten by girls hahaha" What are you gonna do when they smell so bad hahahah"

Even after the game I only had 5 models left (and thats all from our team) but I still find the game extremely enjoyable.

But, both companies have expensive products. Why change back to something that is just as expensive??? Warmachine has some complex rules and confusing game mechanics. They call it Fast Play ans Easy, but it really isn't. Then few weeks later, you will be posting "F*** Privateer, I going back to GW". Just stick with one thing and complete it. Then get into something new. I wish there were more Easy rules to make other Games fun to play.

illuknisaa wrote:Well I personally think the pp minis look way too funny for my taste and they aren't exactly el cheapo and working with metal minis would be pain in the ass.

But why you don't find in warhammer enjoyable to play? In my latest game with 40k 10 howling bashees emerged from a sewer behind my troops (I had 4 nurgle csm though last time these banshees killed my noise marines and khorne berzerkes). Banshees killed 2 and rest of them fleed of the board. My opponent commented with following: "oh look mighty csm running away after they get beaten by girls hahaha" What are you gonna do when they smell so bad hahahah"

Even after the game I only had 5 models left (and thats all from our team) but I still find the game extremely enjoyable.

Yeah, you get moments like that in Warmachine, too.

In fact, if the person you're playing is fun, you'll get moments like that in most types of games.

Do what makes you happy. I mean, I've washed my hands nearly completely of WFB, as I just don't enjoy it.

At some point, personal preference carries the day.

Hi Radio

I wish you the best of luck.

I am still an avid 40K player, but I go through cycles. There will be times I put it down to play FoW or something else. This year has been rough what with a new Daughter and moving so Hobby/Game time has been minimal as well as the restructuring of Finances.

If we are talking about the cost of Hobbies, I bought a Tamiya Tiger I, cost me $85.00 before taxes. Also not a cheap hobby...lol

Either way, having fun whether painting, playing or collecting is important and if PP does it for you, all the power to ya.

Corry

While I don't think very highly of Warmachine/Hordes, it's always nice to see some competition coming up against GW.

@OP: Good for you!

If you're not having fun, get out of the game as soon as possible. GW isn't for everyone, so if you don't like it then for pity's sake, don't do it.

Tho I do find it a little amusing you're going to PP, because it's not like their models are any cheaper or less time-consuming.

If you really wanted to shrink down, maybe consider a pure skirmish game like Infinity / Malifaux / whatever.

Have any of you guys found any good PP deals?

Cuz I aways find them on sale for 50% off, if you deal hunt.

One thing that GW has though is that there models can still have a good resell value after the box is open and if painted a even better value then bought and some models get a bigger value such as the old tallarn squad can go for up to $60-$70 on eBay or something. I am not so sure about Privateer Press or war machine but games workshop does seem to keep it's value in what you buy.

Not really, just like most other stuff GW models plummet in value the minute you remove them from the shelf.

The only way to get your money back, or profit from them, is if you're selling a Forge World model (people will pay retail for it if it means getting a model within a week, FW ships so damn slow), or if you're a tit and you put a Buy It Now on the auction for a ridiculous amount (or try to drive up bids by putting "OOP OOP COLLECTIBLE THEY DON'T MAKE THESE ANYMORE VERY VALUABLE!!!!" all over the auction, like I recently saw on some old boxes of Catachans...they were the plastic models in 3rd edition packaging, same models they make now, but the seller was claiming they were rare and valuable).

Of all the things I've done as "hobbies" in my life 40k has been the cheapest. In the past 15 years I probably have around $9-10K invested into 40k but 6 years ago I was big into tournament style paintball and because my team was not sponsored I was doing 2 tournaments a month and probably investing between $800 to $1000/month between paintballs and Nitrogen for practice and tournament entry fees and then lodging if the tournaments were out of town that month. If I wanted to buy some new gear or upgrade my gear I could easily plop down another $300-600 in one shot.

Over the course of 10 years I could have bought a brand new car off the lot for what I had in paintball. The last gun and air supply I bought were a little over $2k.

$2K would buy a lot of 40k figs that would last me a long time. $2k on a paintball gun is a lot of money when 9-12 months down the road the next fastest, most air efficient gun comes out so you get that "new toy" tingle.

Fateweaver wrote:Of all the things I've done as "hobbies" in my life 40k has been the cheapest.

QFT

I do drums and audio engineering for the band [self learning process] and a cymbal by itself will cost atleast $500AUD for a good one. Mixing desk 500+, etc. 40k is cheap when compared to other hobbies

All the more reason why not to bother with GW. Cost isn't a concern, but your enjoyment is.

If you don't like the game, don't feel obligated to stay with it just because you have models for it.

If a company doesn't do right by its customers, stop buying from them.

Likewise, I stopped buying PP stuff a few years ago during the dark ages of Warmachine when the rules got out of hand. With Mk2 out now it's a great game that affordable to get into, but can easily scale up in cost to a 40k army if you want to invest that much.

To me, GW has shown time and time again that it's going to take 40k down a road that will never be enjoyable for me. However, privateer press's actions in releasing all the Mk2 materials for free online, along with allowing the game to be officially played via vassal, shows me they're willing to do what it takes to make a good game.

Vertrucio wrote:
However, privateer press's actions in releasing all the Mk2 materials for free online, along with allowing the game to be officially played via vassal, shows me they're willing to do what it takes to make a good game.

Or their smart enough to know that if x number of people are bitching about something GW is doing or is perceived to be doing then the best bet is to do the opposite and use that to your own advantage.

Vassal is allowed at present because they have enough people grumbling about having to switch over to MKII, but new books, etc. ,etc. They know that Vassal is a bridge they don't need to cross right now when their public relations plate is already full.

I'd bet money that PP will pull the plug on their IP being used in vassal in the next few years at most...

I can see your thinking here mate when it comes to price.
Recently thought about grabbing a unit of 8 crushers, since, you know, they are amazing.
For some reason they are now £18 each? lol.

The greater daemons were £25 each for the metals, the kit changed and they stayed the same price.
They go to £30, and now £35 for the same fething model?

Fun wise i dont have any problems, however, i tend to play mainly friendly games with a few drinks involved.
Tournie wise it aint too bad, but now, every unit that is half decent costs a fething fortune lol.

Best unit in the daemons dex: 8 crushers: £144.
Thats a massive 320 points lol.
Some people actually field 3 units of these, me thinks i need a better job


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: Never played warmachine, so i wont comment. (may look at thier models though)

Vertrucio wrote:However, privateer press's actions in releasing all the Mk2 materials for free online, along with allowing the game to be officially played via vassal, shows me they're willing to do what it takes to make a good game.

Do we know for a fact that these are the final version of the rules, or is PP going to "tweak" them a bit and only sell that version via rulebook?

We do realize there are more than two mini companies, right? Anima tactics blows both companies out of the water for me PP gets a boost for having actual rules though.

As a gamer who now has a youngling for the first time, I will be the first to admit that your hobby time goes WAY down. Even painting at home becomes VERY difficult (you always need 2 hands to stop the little one from falling over onto the floor, or eating cords, or you name it - this is at least twice every minute).

It is at times like this that you need to rely on your current collection of models - because you won't have time to play AND put together lots more models.

So if you already have friends who play GW and you own the models, play that. If you have some Privateer Press and friends who play it, go for it.

Probably not the time to start painting entire new armies. It costs a lot to obtain MORE models (using what you have already is how you save the most money) than it does to get into a whole new line of miniatures. Yes, adding more GW models costs lots, too, but either way, you need time to paint AND play if you are going to buy any more.

This is a DEMANDING hobby even for someone who is single. You need a night to paint, a night to play, and a night to draw up a decent army list. That's 3 nights a week!

If you love it, do it. But you have to pick your battles, pardon the pun.

SW minis or D&D minis would be 2 good ways to get an army FAST which you won't have to paint. In fact, anything you can buy already painted will be helpful.

In a few years, your kids will probably JOIN you in the hobby - that's when it pays off for the hobby. But of course, first things first. Keep taking good care of your little ones and wife. As for gaming time, do your best to make the most of it when you get some and enjoy. It is a great release from the day to day.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:We do realize there are more than two mini companies, right? Anima tactics blows both companies out of the water for me PP gets a boost for having actual rules though.

They have beautiful minis. Not sure on the rules, though.

Jesus, I didn't expect to get this many replies to this thread - Thanks.

I've been playing PP games since WM since 2003. I saw a Khador Destroyer and purchased it and a rulebook straight away. My FLGS at the time closed down and I couldn't get anymore PP models.
Move fwd to 2008 and my best friend opens a store and I recommend to him PP products. He orders some in and it becomes his best seller. I purchased a huge Khador force and a Cygnar force (which is up for sale BTW and will be on the trade board as soon as I get my ass in gear).

Fun wise I enjoy painting PP stuff and playing WM/Hordes a lot more than GW. You can play the games with just a 'caster and a couple of Jacks. Which is really good as it gives you some gaming experience and then lets you paint your stuff as you get used to how your army plays.

In regards to prepainted model games - Can't stand them. I used to study art and like to paint, so it's kinda ingrained. Besides - painting is part of the wargaming hobby.

In regards to what company has the best models - It comes down to personal preference. IMO GW hasn't had any decent models for ages, where as PP releases some dang gorgeous models which I want to paint, even if I don't collect that particular army.

Again, the whole subject comes down to personal preference.

Yep a personal preference of what you like and either way it will be a big money pit in the end.

In the end it is a matter the PP has created MK2 to steamline and improve game play where the various 40k editions have dumbed down the game to drive into a younger demographic. Fluff and models are attractive but playing a game where who can roll the bigger bucket of dice just blows.

Good choice of game system with Provateer Press. You may be interested in Malifuax for a small skirmish game and a unique card mechanic to resolve gameplay.

knightdrake: I'm sorry, but you're completely wrong there.

PP dumbed down their game. GW streamlines their game.

Get it right, thanks.

JohnHwangDD : PP did not dumb down the game at all. Having played MKII quite a bit, and having played a ton of MKI, I can assure you the changes made were to reduce some of the complexities that were introduced over time.
I am not entirely sure that GW is streamlining their game anymore, as it has played very well since 3rd ED.

Something of a GW apologist. Aside from recent pricing and rules inconsistencies (which can usually be solved with a mature discussion), they don't do anything that I find particularly irritating.

I'm really loving their models at the moment to the point where I'm actually finishing painting projects.

That said each to their own. Have fun in your chosen system

JohnHwangDD wrote:knightdrake: I'm sorry, but you're completely wrong there.

PP dumbed down their game. GW streamlines their game.

Get it right, thanks.

And when was the last time a Codex was actually playtested?

Get it right, thanks.

WM and 40K are apples and oranges for me.

40k feeds my sci-fi/aliens/lasers/robots appetite and offers lots of possibilities for modeling and conversion of models and customization of army. The fluff/story and tone/setting are the draw.

Warmachine feeds my fantasy-ish/swords/elves/undead/steampunk-ish appetite and offers a level of strategic planning/combo building/tactical theory machine application and CCG-style game play that 40K doesn't come close to offering and is the draw.

40K is the artists/creative hobbiests game. Form is more important then function.

Warmachine is the tactician/army builder/theorymachinists game. Function is the whole point.

Neither works as a replacement for the other as I see them, and though certain characteristics and qualities of both games overlap, personally each is rewarding in far different ways...

And when was the last time a Codex was actually playtested?

Got to hand it to you there.

Nothing new from GW is "streamline"
Infact, due to poor wording and no proof reading the new dex's are pure crap.
Im just hoping the new nid dex doesent follow suit or ill be selling off the nids to carry on with my daemons and BA

Grot 6 wrote:

radiohazard wrote:Well I've played a number of games of 40K and WFB to get back into the GW hobby, but I can honestly say I have not enjoyed it.

I find the armies and the gameplay as boring as when I left them many years ago. Nothing has changed and I feel that little else will.

Another reason to defect is because of the price of the miniatures - they are for lack of a better term - extortionate.

With a young family (soon to be increased in size by one) I find it impossible to balance a hobby like GW around my family commitments - if anyone else has this problem, please comment.

I'm going back to play Warmachine/Hordes.

I find PP are more value for money - especially with the Retribution as you get a full unit per box, the games are much more fun, there are less models to purchase and for someone like me who has limited hobby time due to deadlines and family commitments, it's a perfect comprimise.

Anyone else care to comment???

I think you are being a little harsh, and the idea that going over to PP is going to save you money is laughable.

Honestly? Pricewise, PP is worse for the cost.

Aye, it is fun, though with a much more varied style of play, but if you actually want to talk cost, Lets look at this.

Where I am, it cost me 43.99 for a basic box of Khador. Thats 2 jacks, and a caster. ( I picked up Sorscha, the Jug and the destroyer in that box, BTW.)

Of course that wasn't going to cut it, so I picked up another Destroyer for around 23.00, a boxed set of 6 for 25 bucks or so, (Count them 6 whole woodsman!), a manhunter for 10 bucks, 2 more packs of woodsman at 2 figures a piece for around 10 bucks each, and the blister pack of Herne Stoneground & Arquebus Honne for around 20 bucks or so. Of course the BoomHowlers do well for the added smash, so I picked up a box of them for 35.00, and two more blisters for around 20 bucks more each.
WHOOOOHOO!!!!
So. 43.99+23.00+25.00+10.00+10.00(2)+20.00+35.00+23.00+20.00(2)= 239.99, give or take. I didn't add in tax, and the prices were rough estimates, in between my morning and coffee.
3 Jacks, 1 caster, 10 woodsman, a manhunter, 10 Boomhowlers, and Herne Stoneground and Aruebus Jonne.

As oppposed to a boxed set of GW's flagship game at 50-70 bucks, one box of 16 Orks boyz at 25 bucks one squad box of space marines at 25 bucks and 2 tanks each for the Orks ( Truk) 25.00 and the Rhino for 25.00.

That is 70.00+ 25.00+25.00+25.00+25.00= 170.00 give or take. ( Thats 2 ARMIES, by the way.) small, but look at this---
Boxed set copmes with 5 terminators, 1 squad of 10 Marine guys, a Captain, and a Dreadnaught. You add in another squad, and a rhino and that is more then enough to get you out of the gate. ADD the fact that you get 1 Warboss, 20 Boyz, 5 Nobs and 3 Deathcopters, plus the added 16 Ork Boyz and the truck and you make out like a Fat Rat.

170.00, as opposed to 239-240 and some change. ( remember, I was being conservative on the PP stuff.) Of course I didn't add in tax on that stuff, but then you arn't adding the fact that PP has consistantly added more to their way of Codex Creep in a much more different way.

I started out writing a whole thing about the change in cost, but the bottom line up front is that ALL OF THESE GAMES cost money.
Some more then others, but don't fool yourself into to thinking that PP is cheaper. In anything, you invest more then just your monitary value.

Time, Effort, Painting, Scenery, etc.etc.etc. It all goes into the mix.

Have fun with whatever you want to, but don't take the rose colored glasses off from one company, just to put on another pair from another.

These games COST. That is the nature of the beast. It sucks, but that is just how things are.

Nice way to skew these number for 40k you should use relevent data for this. Khador 35 point list would cost you around $150-170 range depending on choices. Your 40k estimate is a joke as any game played worth the effort is between 1500-1850 points and far exceeds your number of $170. Be realistic and don't go for the rosey picture. I bought the AoBR box and 500 points roughly a side best go back to the board and redo your math to purchase another 1k.

CT GAMER : I agree entirely with your sentiments
I absolutely love GW models and aesthetic. It is definitely a hobbyist game. It does not, in my opinion fill me need for a competitive miniatures game.

I am really shocked by some intense fanboyism in this thread. While I realize dakka dakka is geared towards GW more than PP, I do not support the fact that one group is willing to bash the other over some silly differences.

Having played warhammer 40k since around 2002, and warmachine around 2006-7, I can't say that an argument with regards to apples and oranges is sufficient to convey the differences, though to continue that thought, apples and oranges are sweet and tangy and fill that role of fruit nicely so that preference over either of them isn't necessary. Unless you're allergic.

I would first like to mention direct price comparisons are skewed because who buys the bare essentials?
I find that GW's battle boxes tend to includes useful things and then not so very useful things, and things that a person may not even want to field.

Eventually after some time, one would buy new models anyway.



I find Warmachine intellectually full-filling, having to position models just right coupled by a need for an intrinsic knowledge of what "Magic the Gathering" users would refer to as "the Stack".

I find 40k to be spiritually full-filling, as playing orks and smashing things without having to think very hard can be very fun. Not to insult the player base as having to not think. But I don't exactly find my self agonizing over small details in 40k than I do in Warmachine.

Lastly, Thank you very much, Knightdrake, you said exactly what was on my mind.

Edit: To actually address the op's thought. Warmachine is a pretty rad game, I like its intimacy between players and the models.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Vertrucio wrote:However, privateer press's actions in releasing all the Mk2 materials for free online, along with allowing the game to be officially played via vassal, shows me they're willing to do what it takes to make a good game.

Do we know for a fact that these are the final version of the rules, or is PP going to "tweak" them a bit and only sell that version via rulebook?

The current version of the MkII rulebook PDF is supposed to be the same as what the printers got.

With the release of the Primal MkII draft rules for the HORDES Field Test, Privateer Press has chosen to concurrently release an update to the Prime MkII rules so that all players are on the same page for the Field Test. This download represents the rules section of the final Prime MkII rule book that will be available in January 2010 and serves as an update to the version released earlier. We look forward to your HORDES Field Test feedback. Thanks!

from here http://privateerpress.com/company/prime-mk-ii-rules

Well as many have missed it, the first thing should be to say Congradulations on the new baby soon to arrive.
I also commend you on dropping GW, they dont deserve any ones money at the momment, they do deserve a swift kick though.
Also i agree PP puts out some great models, my favorites being the trenchers. and the rules if you stick with em are fun and enjoyable... SLAM.... never get tired of SLAM....
Best thing i can say is PP is popular so it wont to hard to find people to play with. in any event, forget GW and have fun with the new family.

Bottom line regardless what which side says about either game we are all suckers for the miniature hobby.

Game on and yall have a happy and Merry Christmas, hope Santa brings you more minis to play and paint.

PWC wrote:I am really shocked by some intense fanboyism in this thread. While I realize dakka dakka is geared towards GW more than PP, I do not support the fact that one group is willing to bash the other over some silly differences.

I'm assuming that this bit directed to knightdrake, because he's the one who posted the fanboi dumbing down / streamlining post that got the whole thing rolling.

Tho to be fair, my snarky reply probably didn't help things much.

Hawkins wrote:Well as many have missed it, the first thing should be to say Congradulations on the new baby soon to arrive.
I also commend you on dropping GW, they dont deserve any ones money at the momment, they do deserve a swift kick though.
Also i agree PP puts out some great models, my favorites being the trenchers. and the rules if you stick with em are fun and enjoyable... SLAM.... never get tired of SLAM....
Best thing i can say is PP is popular so it wont to hard to find people to play with. in any event, forget GW and have fun with the new family.

Thanks Dude.

He's not due til 8th April, but hell, thats gonna go soooooo quickly.

TBH, as a long time GW fanboy, former long term employee (6 years), I do actually agree with you that they don't deserve my money.

PP on the other hand do, as most of their models (except the Cavalry) are amazing.

In my home town, more people play WM/hordes than 40K. Same in Cambridge too. Stoke is completely dry of PP, but hell, I'm only 90 minutes from home on a train and 40 minutes from Manchester. When I move back home on a more permanant basis, i'm sure I'll be able to escape home for one night a week to get a game in.

BTW - My favourite PP model has and probably always will be Behemoth

BTW again - If nobody minds, I'd like to do some tacticas for WM/Hordes. I've been playing since 2003 and have a lot of knowledge about how each army plays. Any objections?

I guess I'm not really seeing how you MUST spend X amount of dollars on a 40k army to enjoy it.

40k in 40 minutes can be played with 400 pts and depending on what you buy won't cost much more than the starter box for WM.

I look at the individual prices and while WM might be designed for small skirmishes (still unfair to compare it to 40k which isn't designed for small skirmishes but more aimed for 1500-2000) and I see spending as much or more for a 1500pt warband as it would cost for a 1500pt 40k army.

So yeah, I have as much fun with 400-500pts of 40k as I have with 500pts of WM and the cost difference is not that negligible.

Really, for the enjoyment I get 40k has been worth every penny. The money I spent on paintball to this day scares the crap out of me but I had fun and I don't regret my spending.

If you don't like GW games anymore don't play but please don't tell people that do enjoy GW games that they are tools or fan-boys or apologists. I don't call potheads or methheads tools (though I do call them other things and since this is a public forum I can't repeat them here) but I don't berate them for wanting to get stoned on a daily basis.

I'm not berating the GW fans.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I am voicing mine.

As a dedicated Menite, i love my tyranid Rippers

in my opinion... i prefer Warmachine over 40k as it requires a ALOT more Skill to play, and you have access to alot more tactics and manuevers you can deploy, and has extreme amounts of carnage possible.

though i do like warhammer 40k... some of its rules are a bit ?? and it revolves more around just roll dice and stuff dies.
oh well, atleast when new codex comes out i might actually win a game ^_^

It wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. I'm just going from experience.

I'm still not seeing how 40k doesn't involve tactics. I didn't think WM was any harder. Ooh, I got my OP caster power off and now to insta-kill your caster and win the game because you couldn't pull your combo off in time. Reminds me of MtG. Soon as you got your uber combo off your opponent had no chance.

At 400pts 40k plays a lot differently than it does at 2500 or 3k (then again 40k isn't really balanced or designed to go above 1850).

knightdrake wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:

radiohazard wrote:Well I've played a number of games of 40K and WFB to get back into the GW hobby, but I can honestly say I have not enjoyed it.

I find the armies and the gameplay as boring as when I left them many years ago. Nothing has changed and I feel that little else will.

Another reason to defect is because of the price of the miniatures - they are for lack of a better term - extortionate.

With a young family (soon to be increased in size by one) I find it impossible to balance a hobby like GW around my family commitments - if anyone else has this problem, please comment.

I'm going back to play Warmachine/Hordes.

I find PP are more value for money - especially with the Retribution as you get a full unit per box, the games are much more fun, there are less models to purchase and for someone like me who has limited hobby time due to deadlines and family commitments, it's a perfect comprimise.

Anyone else care to comment???

I think you are being a little harsh, and the idea that going over to PP is going to save you money is laughable.

Honestly? Pricewise, PP is worse for the cost.

Aye, it is fun, though with a much more varied style of play, but if you actually want to talk cost, Lets look at this.

Where I am, it cost me 43.99 for a basic box of Khador. Thats 2 jacks, and a caster. ( I picked up Sorscha, the Jug and the destroyer in that box, BTW.)

Of course that wasn't going to cut it, so I picked up another Destroyer for around 23.00, a boxed set of 6 for 25 bucks or so, (Count them 6 whole woodsman!), a manhunter for 10 bucks, 2 more packs of woodsman at 2 figures a piece for around 10 bucks each, and the blister pack of Herne Stoneground & Arquebus Honne for around 20 bucks or so. Of course the BoomHowlers do well for the added smash, so I picked up a box of them for 35.00, and two more blisters for around 20 bucks more each.
WHOOOOHOO!!!!
So. 43.99+23.00+25.00+10.00+10.00(2)+20.00+35.00+23.00+20.00(2)= 239.99, give or take. I didn't add in tax, and the prices were rough estimates, in between my morning and coffee.
3 Jacks, 1 caster, 10 woodsman, a manhunter, 10 Boomhowlers, and Herne Stoneground and Aruebus Jonne.

As oppposed to a boxed set of GW's flagship game at 50-70 bucks, one box of 16 Orks boyz at 25 bucks one squad box of space marines at 25 bucks and 2 tanks each for the Orks ( Truk) 25.00 and the Rhino for 25.00.

That is 70.00+ 25.00+25.00+25.00+25.00= 170.00 give or take. ( Thats 2 ARMIES, by the way.) small, but look at this---
Boxed set copmes with 5 terminators, 1 squad of 10 Marine guys, a Captain, and a Dreadnaught. You add in another squad, and a rhino and that is more then enough to get you out of the gate. ADD the fact that you get 1 Warboss, 20 Boyz, 5 Nobs and 3 Deathcopters, plus the added 16 Ork Boyz and the truck and you make out like a Fat Rat.

170.00, as opposed to 239-240 and some change. ( remember, I was being conservative on the PP stuff.) Of course I didn't add in tax on that stuff, but then you arn't adding the fact that PP has consistantly added more to their way of Codex Creep in a much more different way.

I started out writing a whole thing about the change in cost, but the bottom line up front is that ALL OF THESE GAMES cost money.
Some more then others, but don't fool yourself into to thinking that PP is cheaper. In anything, you invest more then just your monitary value.

Time, Effort, Painting, Scenery, etc.etc.etc. It all goes into the mix.

Have fun with whatever you want to, but don't take the rose colored glasses off from one company, just to put on another pair from another.

These games COST. That is the nature of the beast. It sucks, but that is just how things are.

Nice way to skew these number for 40k you should use relevent data for this. Khador 35 point list would cost you around $150-170 range depending on choices. Your 40k estimate is a joke as any game played worth the effort is between 1500-1850 points and far exceeds your number of $170. Be realistic and don't go for the rosey picture. I bought the AoBR box and 500 points roughly a side best go back to the board and redo your math to purchase another 1k.

Be realistic and read the post.

Point being How much did I pay for the Khadors again?

As for realistic, you are welcome to price the same out, add in the tax this time and go ahead and post what you have.

How many miniatures did I price out for the 40K, as opposed to the Warmachine? You think I was wrong? OK, show me that I got a better deal for the Khadors then for buying a BASIC batch of 40K stuff. Nevermind that I showed a basic, 2 GW army start as opposed to the one Warmachine faction start.

I was being general with both, had you taken off your own glasses, you would have seen that.
FWIW, I'll throw, tommorrow. I'll go give you an exact price and show you how you will really get it stuck to you from BOTH companies. I know what I paid for the Kohdors, seeing as I just bought them 2 weeks ago. I haven't bought GW since the Black Reach boxed set, so I was using my numbers from that time.

The POINT of my post is that this hobby costs, regardless of what you pay, you don't just pay in cash.


What was the point of yours again, other then to try to call me out?

Seon wrote:i prefer Warmachine over 40k as it requires a ALOT more Skill to play,

Really? I've played WM and it's about the same, just with fewer minis.

But really, none of these games require tremendous amounts of playing skill per se. It's not like you're in some sort of kraftwerke situation requiring intense study & practice before you can even play, much less win. The different games require different kinds of tactical / strategic acumen, but any claim of "more skill" is doubtful.

I'd love to try WM, I just cant justify another venture into a mini game right now..

I keep looking at that firestorm armada though....

Im thinking about starting Warmachine: because
I really really hate GW right now after all the crap, the blood bowl rulebook put me over the edge!

Not a good reason to go Warmachine.

Play warmachine if you like the game/universe/models, not because you hate
another company.

I'm in the same boat. When the 5th ed. Eldar codex came out, I got all psyched and started throwing lists together, then just found an overwhelming sense of ennui take over--just this profound feeling of boredom. I've played maybe a handful of 40k games since, and haven't played in close to 2 years. I don't miss it, and don't even miss the GW figs. I dumped a PILE at a local store auction (including my Sisters Army), kept a few pieces that I want to paint, and am mostly concentrating on Malifaux, PP, and Victorian Sci-Fi/Historicals gaming, using figs from Foundry, Wargames Factory, Copplestone, Artizan, Brigade, Sash & Sabre, Reaper, and others. And I haven't even started diving into the Warlord and Perry plastics...

Play what's fun. Paint what you like. Enjoy your hobby.

No offense but I think some people are letting the BB thing get them so po'ed that it can't be healthy.

Seriously, it's not as if GW sold your daughter for slavery. Quitting a game over something like that won't make it go away and you might realise 3 months into WM that you hate WM, then you've wasted all that time and money out of anger? Frustration?

Don't play another war game because you hate GW over something so trivial. Play another war game because it's interesting rules and fluffwise (which is why I won't touch WM as neither the rules or fluff interest me at all).

Lord of battles wrote:Im thinking about starting Warmachine: because
I really really hate GW right now after all the crap, the blood bowl rulebook put me over the edge!

IMO, you would do far better to smash, burn, and melt every single GW-produced figure that you own. Please video it for our enjoyment.

I think going over to another game BECAUSE you HATE GW is a perfect excuse to try another game, sure there is no garuntee that the other game will be awesome, but trying new things is healthy as far as the Mini hobby is concerned.
The worst case is you dont like it, the best case is you find something to fill the hobby void GW has left us recently.
And it sends the right message, 'GW youve Fracked up, to hell with your buisness policies, to hell with your game, and to hell with You scewing with the fans, and a great big to hell with you.' (frothing at the mouth and megaphone optional.)

Going over to another system because you hate GW is akin to that great old saying "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

Stop buying things from GW. Do some research and demo games of other systems. Find one you like.

Worst comes to worst, then you've still got your collection of GW models and can play with those no matter what. You just won't be buying anything new.

No, destroying your minis is cutting your nose off, which is why I suggested it.

If anyone wants to destroy their minis send them my way. I'll cover shipping and it helps out fellow gamers who still like GW games (unless it's Dark Eldar than you can destroy those as they are too ugly to exist).

I bought some Trollblood minis (Borka Kegslayer, Troll Axer, Earthborn Dire Troll) the other day, and I have to say, I'm very impressed. Beautiful sculpts, very little flash, and you get a lot of model for your buck, and the minis are very big(although this may just be because they're freaking Trollbloods). I havn`t been this pleasantly surprised since I decided to pick up a few anima tactics figures (which are absolutely beautiful, some of my favourites).

Lately, especially with the release of the SW codex, I`ve felt that GW`s been dropping the ball time and time again, and the rules only get worse and worse. Phil Kelly used to be my favourite codex writer (Orkz and Eldar both being versatile, fun, and fairly internally balanced), but with the mess that is the pups, the poor editing and complete lack of playtesting really shows.

PP`s massive playtesting campaign really got me interested in their games, and after glancing through the rules and character cards, I`ve really come to appreciate the depth, uniformity, and quality of the rules.

Of course, finding people to play against will be a different story, but I`ll try to get my 40k friend at Lethbridge to proxy some stuff with me, and if anyone hates what GW`s done with their rules, it`s him. If I can`t find anyone to play against, I still love the models (and I`m a painter far before I`m a player, so it`s all good).

My main problem with GW is that I only like painting interesting models. After painting 40 orkz, it becomes a chore to paint the other 100. With university work to deal with, and other recreational activities, it`s hard to convince myself to paint generic boy number 72. With a skirmish style game that focuses on many different, smaller, more characterful units, beasts, and machines, it becomes much easier to paint each mini. This reason would also be my major detractor from WHFB above all else, as not only do you have plenty of the same model to paint, many of them will end up doing nothing more then filling ranks, making them feel even less characterful and more useless.

The reason I started with Inquisition, and try to run my Orkz based on a more elite setup, is because I like each model counting towards something important, and being characterful in their own right. But with each new codex, GW seems to be moving away from that idea, focusing less on more characterful units, and more on pure volume.

Kanluwen wrote:Going over to another system because you hate GW is akin to that great old saying "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

No it's not. It's not even close.

It's going over to another game to find something different because you find the practices of another company callous and reprehensible.

Shouldn't the biggest reason for trying another game system be to branch out, to try something new, not because of spite but a genuine interest in something new?

Doing something out of spite is very rarely a good idea as most of the time once you cool down over whatever it was that slighted you enough to make you do something spiteful in the first place you will regret doing whatever it is you did.

Not to mention how many people will stay with a new system? I can list about 8-10 dakkaites who said they'll boycott GW but ONLY for 2 months and in February they will be buying the new Tyranid stuff. Yeah, way to stick it to the man. Err, not really.

Quit playing GW games because you genuinely want to try something new, not because big brother kicked sand in your face.

Yep PP actually listens to their customers.

That and their games let you chain together sweet combos to make uber armies. Cheese is balanced if every faction has it!

I don't hate GW. Not in the slightest. I don't like their business practices - lack of proper play testing, excessive price hikes, a drop in quality models and army books, rude staff and most importantly very boring games and game mechanics. I think game mechanics because I've been playing for over 20 years.

All of these things have pushed me away from GW, but I still like the background - I still buy all the novels and the odd army book for a good read.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Going over to another system because you hate GW is akin to that great old saying "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

No it's not. It's not even close.

It's going over to another game to find something different because you find the practices of another company callous and reprehensible.

Since when should business practices get in the way of enjoyability?

I can understand to a point boycotting and any number of ways to make your voice heard.
But refusing to play with armies you already own, the gaming group you already have, the rulebooks you already have and starting a brand new system you and others may or may not like just to give GW the big kiss off?

That seems a bit silly, even if GW deserves it.

One thing I'm not seeing is how the quality of GW minis is dropping.

The new Ork models are stunning, the daemons are stunning (the ones that aren't retro like the Crushers and the Heralds), the SW's are stunning (the Terminators moreso) and I'm digging the new skaven stuff. The new Tyranid stuff makes me even more glad I stuck with Tyranids.

Some other companies have nice sculpts don't get me wrong but I am really hard pressed to see how overall the quality of GW minis is going down. Egads, just look at SH. Those termies (ignoring the flawed Crux) look way better than any other mini GW has produced and that's for a board game (and even H had good things to say about the mini quality).

I wouldn`t say that the quality of GW`s minis is dropping, just that they`re being far surpassed by plenty of smaller companies. Guys like Gamezone, Avatars of War, and Edge/Anima Project Studio are simply better and in many cases, cheaper.

Oh I know some of GW minis suck (not a single LOTR mini I like, even Balrog is not that great) but I've seen way more lame minis from PP and at prices way higher (cavalry for instance from PP is just insane compared to GW cavalry and in metal no less. I'll take the plastic Chaos Knights over any of the PP cavalry and for about 1/2 the price).

I think it's dependent on taste. I like some of the Hordes and PP sculpts and some of the old Rackham sculpts but none of the APS sculpts or Gamezone grab me. Sodapop minis has some cool sculpts, amazing even but they are about on par with GW in terms of price.

Fateweaver wrote:Shouldn't the biggest reason for trying another game system be to branch out, to try something new, not because of spite but a genuine interest in something new?

Biggest, perhaps, but it certainly doesn't have to be the only.

As you saying it is impossible to find a desire to do something else because you start to dislike the thing you're currently doing, or the people responsible for the thing you're doing?

Kanluwen wrote:Since when should business practices get in the way of enjoyability?

Never said it should, only that it can.

If you're annoyed with GW I'd suggest at least look at other companies. This isn't marriage where fidelity is important, after all!

Maybe a good Dakka Article idea would be a brief guide to a bunch of other games all on one page. Basically, "If you're tired of GW's games, here's some alternatives to try." with links to appropriate resources (quickstart docs, etc.).

the reason i say that Warmachine/Hordes requires more skill is that, the higher the skill level of the players, the harder the game gets.
mainly because some warcasters are so ridiculously powerful, that if you make even one mistake, your caster is dead on the 2nd turn. and thats game over.
seen it happen so many times. (have been told by a far superior player that our gaming group has extreme skill level yaay lol)

whereas in 40k i think the game is more luck based. with 1d6, instead of the 2d6 in warmachine. as everything always has a chance to hit and wound, excluding tanks. so you take your unit of hormagaunts vs a unit of terminators. the gaunts hit on 4s wound on 4s(if upgraded). and then 2+ save so yeah. but they put out so many attacks that you can luck your way into a few kills.
but in warmachine you get a unit of flameguard vs a unit of MoW shocktroopers in shield wall. then even with double 6 they do a single damage. MoW pretty much have 8 wounds each, so yeah. lol but you can CMA or have a UA, cast ignite, etc. to help you win

but this is a very bad example :( as you cant really compare.
someone with game knowledge of both systems might understand what im trying to say but i apologize anyway.

but the one thing 40k/fantasy has over WM/Hordes is that you can easily convert models and theres such much you can do with them, even if you have a very basic modelling skill like myself. put some rending claws on my spare red terror and Bam, got myself an extra ravener! i was happy. and when you pay silly amounts of money for this stuff, you should have the right to make them look cooler

but the warmachine models cant really modify them unless your pretty good at it, but they very detailed as they come normally.

Look, it's nice to pat yourselves on the back, but as I've said, I've played both systems, and WM isn't anything special in that regard. If you're positioning your WC for the enemy to score a 2nd turn kill, that's your fault, especially given that WM basically defaults to "kill the WC" - IMO, compared with 40k objectives, this is even simpler and less mentally taxing.

Out of all the games out there, 40k has the absolute *least* amount of luck in it. You generally roll enough dice that you have good chances for any given result conforming to a statistical expectation. 40k is not nearly as "swingy" as WFB or WM. 40k also has good mobility so that players can easily control layered outcomes with a little planning. Unlike WFB or WM, in 40k it is very rare that you will have a single bad die roll ruin your game.

The Gaunts v Termies is a good example of statistics at work. In 40k, I can pretty easily predict that a small number of Gaunts will fail against Termies Sv2+, but a large enough number will score a few wounds. Rending & PWs make the numbers even easier to calculate. 40k has fairly high predictability, which is very pleasing to math / engineering / science types such as myself. Being able to predict is pretty much the exact opposite of luck.

WM is a much smaller skirmish game, and it's easier to be screwed on dice when you don't roll as many. Hence the bonus "focus" dice to change the odds. Different stats apply, but the smaller number of dice does make it easier for a bad result to pop up.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Out of all the games out there, 40k has the absolute *least* amount of luck in it. You generally roll enough dice that you have good chances for any given result conforming to a statistical expectation. 40k is not nearly as "swingy" as WFB or WM. 40k also has good mobility so that players can easily control layered outcomes with a little planning. Unlike WFB or WM, in 40k it is very rare that you will have a single bad die roll ruin your game.

I don't understand your logic. A D6 system has a flat distribution. Using a 2D6 system provides a normal distribution. Anyone with a middle school level of mathematics should be able to determine which values offer a comfortable chance of positive outcome. I know you have a simmering hatred for the WM/H system, but I don't see how one system is statistically more predictable than the other - they are both equally predictable - just that one system has a higher number of outcomes and requires a bit more calculation.

As for mobility, IMO one of the 40k's biggest problems is the rigid mobility system where everyone is constrained to fixed movement bands. Guys that are slower or faster than normal, running or crossing difficult terrain move at a random speed. Considering that being able to position your troops is half the battle, I don't see how having a random movement system contributes to 40k needing less luck either. Outflank, deepstrike and reserves are also very die roll dependent where the outcome on any of these could drastically swing the flow of the game - what is worse is that these rolls usually can not be modified.

40k in my mind is more of a "hobbyists game", in that the background and models are superb. The game mechanics are streamlined, easy to learn and scales reasonably as games get larger. WM/H on the other hand, is more of a "gamer's game" in that it offers lots of tactical options, with much less on modeling and storyline. The game itself is less streamlined, has a steeper learning curve and is geared more towards players looking for more freedom in how units interact - due to the complexities of unit interactions, this game does not scale as well into massive games.

A d6 gives a flat distribution with all numbers at 16.667% equally probable.

2d6 gives a TRIANGULAR distribution, rising from 1/36 at 2, linearly to a peak of 6/36 at 7, and falling linearly to 1/26 at 12. If you plot this, it looks exactly like a TRIANGLE, hence the name.

To get an proper "normal" (bell curve) distribution, you need a very large number of steps. The bell curve shape doesn't begin to appear until you have at least 3d6, and additional dice are needed to give it any smoothness.

In 40k, you don't roll a single d6. You roll a fistfull of d6s. That fistful of d6s produces a fairly normal distribution of successes. This is what makes 40k more statistically predictable.

If you want to talk about all possible outcomes, then 40k is vastly larger than WM/H. If you have 30 attacks, you would calculate odds from 1 to 30 hits, then 1 to 30 wounds, then 1 to 30 saves for a minmum of 27000 possible outcomes for a single attack, compared to the 11 (or 16) possibile outcomes from rolling 2 (or 3) d6 in WM.

40k isn't rigid about mobility, hence Jump Packs, Bikes, Fast Skimmers, etc. Different unit types move differently. Imagine that! There's no luck involved - you simply move units.

40k isn't about individual units. It's about an army. If you're halfway smart, you don't put all your eggs in one basket for the Reserve & Deep Strike. You have lots of units and don't care about arrival. If you care about arrival, you manage the odds with Guard or Eldar. If you care about scatter, you manage it with Pods.

Creating the distinction between 40k & WM is artificial. They're different, but not so much from a tactical standpoint. And certainly, WM's no game of Type 1 / 1.5 MtG.

Warmachine is about options on the tabletop and unit synergy, 40K and Fantasy are more about list synergy. Both are fun.

I personally find my enjoyment of 40K and GW stuff in general waning. The most recent heavy handed C&D activity has a little to do with it. The game balance (or lack thereof) is also a problem. Codex creep is just a thinly veiled sales tactic.

I'm very excited about Incursion and Secrets of the Third Reich as well as Incursion. Firestorm Armada is also a great game. There's lots of new gaming material out there.

In closing, it's not enough that GW has nice models (which they do). It's about customer service (listen up GW), fan support, responsiveness to player questions, listening to your fan base, and letting us know you appreciate our enthusiams, loyalty and dollars. GW isn't the only game in town any more.

40K has as much luck as any GW game. As one person I know says, 'it's a game of 4+', and that's about as deep as it goes.

I guess I find it ridiculous to compare a skirmish game to an army encompassing game.

How about comparing WM at 500pts with a 40k game at 500pts? A lot more skill to win at 500pts than at 2k points. Above 1500 you can spam units to win (dakkafexen anyone) but at 500 you have no such luxury (at least not the luxury of spamming 3 dakkafexen or 9 vendettas).

I guess that's the thing. In WM if your dice fail you and you don't get off that uber Caster/Jack or Caster/Solo combo it's game over, might as well pack up your minis and concede. In 40K if your librarian fails to get a power off or your VG squad fails to reach assault it normally won't result in a loss.

Seems to me as if WM relies more on luck than 40k does.

Fateweaver wrote:I guess I find it ridiculous to compare a skirmish game to an army encompassing game.

How about comparing WM at 500pts with a 40k game at 500pts?

Seems to me as if WM relies more on luck than 40k does.

They're minis games played for fun, so close enough.

WM at 500 pts is what? A starter and a couple extra units? Same as an AoBR game?

Didn't I say that a page ago?

The main point is that these are supposed to be games for fun. They're not especially mentally taxing nor supreme contests of skill. They're enjoyable diversions to structure time while shooting the breeze. Trying to read much more into any of these games is pretty silly.

Maybe try flames of war if you don't like gws prices thoguh they are getting better i mean look at the guard infantry boxes $2.20 per model with extra bitzs+win and also you piced some pritty espensive armys it seems i mean how much is it now for a squad liek 42 buck a little under termis. But i degress have fun with pp, heck i still have an esembled starting skorn box like the dudes not the fluff i just keep coming back to the dark future of the 41st melenia ftw.

I just find the FoW models ugly as sin. GW's epic line looks better and is smaller.

I like Warmachine / Hordes, I had a skorne army that I recently sold and I'm building a Khador army now. However, I'm building it just for modeling and painting fun because I know no one in my group plays or wants to play. maybe I'll get what 1 or 2 games in at a store some day, but I just don't have the time to be there often enough or on "warmachine night".

I like GW's models and that's why I play with em. I could care less about the rules, honestly. The game is still fun to play because the models are fun to build and paint and I have a great group of buddies to play with that make the game fun. i find most games with complete strangers (tourneys included) to be mostly boring, prolly cuz I just don't know my opponent well enough so I'm not as relaxed. and it's another reason I don't really like playing at stores.

As far as the costs involved... I know what the models cost and I buy what I can afford. Yeah it's an expensive hobby, but it's nothing compared to say, lionel trains. Yay, let's spend $1500 on a shiney new perfectly scaled engine to pull our box cars around in a circle! Don't go crazy with your purchases. don't buy a whole army in 1 go. plan it out, build it piece by piece and unit by unit. same goes for warmachine or any other game. it's a pricey hobby, and most hobbies are pricey... just do what you enjoy and have fun

I like GW. Haven't played PP. Some of the posts have a very "Star Wars vs. Star Trek" feel.

Both are loved and hated. Both have their good and bad traits. If you don't like one, go to the other. Except in the miniature world, there is more than one "other" company to go to to have fun.

Back to what I was saying before, as long as the person who is tried of GW is still into miniature gaming, then it's a win for all of mini wargaming folk!

This thread has been reported. I've just had to clean out a whole swag of flamebait and snarkiness. Because it's practically Christmas, and I don't want to have to ban half the forum, I'm not going to take any further action on this one if people can at least try to discuss their favorite toy soldier game without resorting to insults and childishness. If that sounds too hard, please do us all a favour and take a couple of days off.

I'm intrigued by the new plastics only for the ease of assembly for something as large as a jack but ppm is still equivalent or even higher than GW so it's not really cheaper.

In on this thread as well. Play nice.

++++++++++

More to the point of the thread:

All of the reasons folks have stated are more than acceptable. Your reasons are your own. I'm really surprised to see folks talking down ANYONE'S reasons for choosing to play their respective games.

I've personally been wanting to jump ship to a new game for some time now. The recent issues with GW have been a bit of a motivator to do just that. And hopefully in the near future you'll be seeing models for said games in my plogs ^_-.

BTW FW, your last post was 1337 >.>....

Fateweaver wrote:I just find the FoW models ugly as sin.

Honestly? So do I...

The tanks are okay, but the infantry look like blobs with guns to me.

That and I hear the rules are needlessly complex. Someone told me once that FoW even had rules for wind direction of all things. Not sure how true that is, but still...

Speaking of jumping ships, I'm working on a project currently.

When looking at a new game, what exactly do you(the potential customers) want to know before delving into a new system? How much of the background of the armies, the system's rules, etc do you want to know about before hopping in?
I ask because I'm currently in the process of brainstorming doing a review of Infinity and want to know exactly what I should hit upon.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If you want to talk about all possible outcomes, then 40k is vastly larger than WM/H. If you have 30 attacks, you would calculate odds from 1 to 30 hits, then 1 to 30 wounds, then 1 to 30 saves for a minmum of 27000 possible outcomes for a single attack, compared to the 11 (or 16) possible outcomes from rolling 2 (or 3) d6 in WM.

Yep, if you compare 30 attacks to 1 attack there are more possible outcomes in 30 attacks. Staggering.

Perhaps you'd have more luck if you compared like for like. 500 (35) points of Warmachine has far more going on that 500 points of 40k There's a whole other, non dice, resource management element for a start.

You thought spamming Slayers like Wraithlords was a good idea in MKI, so in all fairness I think I'll take your Warmachine wisdom with a pinch of salt.

@George: If you want to be picky, it's a single assault action.

If you want to talk about non-die resources, perhaps consider Sisters Faith Points?

When I got into WM, there wasn't a "MK1" suffix to be found anywere, it was simply "Warmachine". Nor was there much of anything besides the models in the starter boxes, which were Jack-heavy. When PP made WM into an infantry game with Dreads, I lost interest - 40k already did that, and did it better. Now that WM is going back to Jacks, my interest is up again.

@JHDD: You can be as picky as you like it's still not like for like.

Although they are a non dice resource, Sister's faith points aren't applicable to every game of 40k, they're a niche rule, like say 'Tough' for Trolls on Warmachine. Nobody is going to suggest Warmachine has three sets of rolls as part of a typical attack, similarly we can ignore Sister's resource allocation aspect. Warmachine has this as an aspect of every turn of every game.

40k's mass dice predictability works fine until you start taking into account stuff that ignores models attacks/dice (or the chance of success is very low) because of unusually high attributes (Wraithlords, Land Raiders, Carnifex and so on.) 40k's base mechanics handle these situations quite badly, 40k has practically a whole different game slapped onto it in the form of the vehicle rules. 40k's wound allocation system is rubbish, it's the same as Flames of War but Flames of war has fewer models/dice so just about gets away with it.

Three slayers was never kick ass, even in a Prime only mangled metal environment. I added the MkI tag because the Slayers stock is high right now in MkII (as we've discussed before), maybe you were just playing the (very) long game.

@George: If you read my user page, it's pretty obvious that my ability to predict the future isn't anywhere near as good as that. Indeed, it's so bad, it's amusing. If my foresight were good, I wouldn't have dabbled in a *lot* of stuff, which would have saved me untold wasted time and money.

The Slayers never kicked ass, but that wasn't why I bought them - I got them because I liked the models. And it's also why I never sold them - because I liked the models, and they were painted.

Anyhow, dice wise, unless you're actively needing a lot of 6s or 1s, 40k works fine from a numbers standpoint. Vehicles are always going to be a challenge, because they're all different from ordinary stuff, but 40k5 has the least troublesome version I've seen for 40k.

But I guess if we really want to get into the resource bit, we can jump the fence and talk about WFB Magic.

Needing lots of 6s, 1s (or worse) would be the situations to which I am referring. Vehicles are a 'challenge' because the basic game mechanics don't use them. We could talk about WFB, or at least you could, because I know sod all about the game. I don't like WFB because of the way whole swathes of models are reduced to a single stat increase, nothing to do with the intricacies of the game mechanics. I haven't played since about 2001.

Sidstyler wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:I just find the FoW models ugly as sin.

...Someone told me once that FoW even had rules for wind direction of all things. Not sure how true that is, but still...

They sure do. FoW handles smoke differently than 40k. Wind affects a smoke screen and it will drift and dissipate. 40k abstracts smoke launchers as a cover save (IIRC). FoW designers wanted to model it differently since smoke is used to do more than make a vehicle hard to hit/damage. It's used to mask troop movements as it was during the actual war.

Da Boss wrote:Warmachine is about options on the tabletop and unit synergy, 40K and Fantasy are more about list synergy. Both are fun.

Try telling somebody like Blackmoor that 40k is all about list building synergy as opposed tabletop and unit synergy.


I like some of the minis that PP puts out and have purchased and painted a few, but the fluff for their systems doesn't interest me at all. I am really into the fluff behind 40k and as such much rather prefer to play that game.

On the topic of cost, I don't really think that the PP prices teir figures any better than GW does so I can't see where this arguement comes from. Perhaps if you are only playing small skirmish games?

There's a good amount of synergy in 40K too, but I think it's much more pronounced in Hordes and Warmachine. Agreed that GW's fluff is much better though- I'm not sure I'm a fan of the "continuing Storyline" approach to game fluff. But it doesn't stop me from enjoying the game.

PP miniatures are in many cases more expensive than similar GW miniatures. The reason the game is "cheaper" is because you need less of the to play the game. I've found however that I end up spending roughly the same amount due to wanting more units to use and work with different warcasters. Really the best thing about the game for me is the rules and rule support, and some of the big warbeast miniatures.

As long as Games Workshop's rules are written to service the sales of new model kits, and not the other way around, it will never be a good or balanced rule set.

Ever.

George Spiggott wrote:We could talk about WFB, or at least you could, because I know sod all about the game. I don't like WFB because of the way whole swathes of models are reduced to a single stat increase,

Actually, most WFB models are glorified wound markers that sometimes give an extra combat point in groups of 5. It's pretty dire.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:We could talk about WFB, or at least you could, because I know sod all about the game. I don't like WFB because of the way whole swathes of models are reduced to a single stat increase,

Actually, most WFB models are glorified wound markers that sometimes give an extra combat point in groups of 5. It's pretty dire.

I'll third that. I quit WFB years ago and haven't looked back. The models are nice for generic fantasy gaming though - the 6th edition regiment sets in particular made for good dungeon populations in combination with a Warhammer Quest set or two.

The 'glorified wound markers' thing is what really pushed me away from WHFB in the first place. It's a shame too, since many of GW's best sculpts come from that range. I'll buy some models just for painting, but I'll never play WHFB with rules like that.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Seon wrote:i prefer Warmachine over 40k as it requires a ALOT more Skill to play,

Really? I've played WM and it's about the same, just with fewer minis.

Not even close.

My eight year old son is competently playing 40K already after a year.

He isn't even close to beginning to fully understand and see the potential for combo building, synergy, army tuning, and importance of the order of unit activations needed to play Warmachine competently.

Both are great games that I enjoy very much. That being said 40K is checkers to Warmachine's chess...

I'll attest to that. I was able to read the 40k rulebook in a day and have the rules memorized and ready to play.

After leafing through the Hordes pdf, I've come to the conclusion that it'll take a lot longer to understand everything. At least the character cards are very simple and easy to understand, unlike GW's codecies ("for information on this special rule, see page x, which will redirect you to page y").

If he can't understand that, then how is he playing 40k competently? It's not like 40k doesn't feature combos, synergy, tuning, or conditional sequencing.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If he can't understand that, then how is he playing 40k competently? It's not like 40k doesn't feature combos, synergy, tuning, or conditional sequencing.

40k does contain these to some degree, just far less than WM. You want to make this a contest and it isn't. Doest make 40K a worse game just a different (and less complex) game. get over it.



Lets take an example:

Take a squad of tactical marines. What are my choices with them?

1. I can stand still or I can move up to 6".

2. I can then shoot if a target is available and in range or I can run; shooting is either rapid fire or regular; heavy weapons only if I did not move( I must shoot everything at same target)

3. Lastly depending on if I ran, fired rapid fire weapons, or fired heavy weapons i can assault if a target is in assault range.

4. rinse and repeat

All of the above is based upon basic rules mechanics of the game and the stats/abilities/equipment of the unit itself. It is all self-contained and predictable. The unit always hits on the same number (3+), always has the same ranges (12" or 24" depending on fire mode), etc.

With very few exceptions nothing external modifies any of the above to any great degree or with any frequency.

Even an average or new player can quickly evaluate what is the best and sometimes ONLY thing a tactical squad can do each round based upon the specifics of the condition of the table.


Now take a unit of Cygnar long gunners (riflemen):

For starters I can chose to assault or shoot as I see fit int he order I choos ein Warmachine. I can assault with one unit then shoot with another, then go back and run this unit then assault with this one, etc. Sometimes I need to assault and kill something tying one of my units up so that that unit now freed from combat can shoot, etc. This all adds to the tactical complexity of Warmachine.

1. I can choose three types of movement: advance, charge, run, or I can stand still and claim an aiming bonus which increases my ballistic skill. I can then make my ranged attacks or assault attacks (just as in 40k)

2. However When i shoot I can have each guy shoot at a different target or have groups of guys do "combined ranged attacks" in any combo i choose to increase my ballistic skill and strength of the attack for each group I form. The best way to do this is to access threat level of possible targets and figure out how my fire must be broken up/grouped/directed. Firing everything at the same target as a default is often not the best choice. Again tactical choice of fire allocation supersedes what is present in 40K.

3. Now before I shot with this unit I can use spells, abilities and feats from other models that i activated prior to do any number of things such as increase my units range, allow me to ignore my targets cover, increase my ballistic skill, double my rate of fire, make my attacks magical so i can hurt targets otherwise immune to normal fire, and a host of other things. The role of my unit, the specific characteristics of it attacks, and event he number/range/accuracy of it's attacks can all be consciously and selectively altered to benefit me tactically base upon what is happening on the board, what targets present themselves, and based upon what outside resources I can afford to spend on this unit at this moment. It requires you to get multiple units in the right position and the right distance from each other to benefit from said buffs, and to activate units in very specific order to gain certain buffs and synergistif combos that apply multiple buffs to your units.

Nothing like this exists in 40K to the degree that it does in WM. In Warmachine this sort of planning and application of combos and spells/abilities is a regular occurrence every round, with both sides jockeying to be in position to apply their combo's and abilities or negate or prevent their opponent's. This is the chess aspect of Warmachine that i alluded to. Warmachine plays very much like a CCG in miniatures form in this regard.

Most people can look at a unit in a 40K game and pretty easily predict what it will do each turn since the 0ptions are so limited and the obvious choices based upon the role of that type of squad and the limitations imposed by the mechanics of the rules.

The ability to predict such a thing in Warmachine is no where near as reliable due to the sheer numebr of spells, feats, abilities and so forth that any given player might choose to apply to any given unit at any given time.

As I said before both games are great and offer something different, though I know people that are "fans" of one game or the other love to make any such duscussion into a fanboy war.

40K isn't a lesser game because it is less complex tactically then WM (which it is without a doubt). 40K's strength is that it is a hobbiest's game that offers you the ability to personalize armies, and that it has a great setting and fluff, and the simplicity of it's rules allow you to fight massive cinematic battles with scores if not hundreds of figs. It's simplicity is it's strength givent he form and function of it's game type (massed battles).

WM is a skirmish game in which the tactical mind games and varied ways to utilize models (especially in combos) are the key focus of the game play.

Chess to checkers...

I dunno, because all of what you describe is in 40k, and it's what separates a good player from a bad one. For those Tacticals, you need to decide at the top of the turn if you're going to Run, Shoot, or Assault. If you were playing Eldar or WFB, you'd have similar issues with Doom / Fortune or Magic. And those Tacticals even have the option of staying put and Going to Ground to improve their cover saves.

The idea that 40k is checkers just doesn't hold for me. The only real difference is that 40k places structure around it, and things in place to helps make things simpler to start (SMs, AoBR). Yes, WM has more special rules on each unit, like in 40k2, but I don't think that defines the game so much. If you give your kid a "one of" Eldar Aspect army to play for 40k, I think he'd have more challenges with it compared to his SMs.

Anyhow, I agree that neither game is "better" or "worse", and that they're different games. I do think that characterizing WM as "chess" and 40k as "checkers" is pretty silly.

Another reason to defect is because of the price of the miniatures - they are for lack of a better term - extortionate.

PP models are the same price? I mean yeah, you need less of them, but they aren't less expensive.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I dunno, because all of what you describe is in 40k, and it's what separates a good player from a bad one. For those Tacticals, you need to decide at the top of the turn if you're going to Run, Shoot, or Assault. If you were playing Eldar or WFB, you'd have similar issues with Doom / Fortune or Magic. And those Tacticals even have the option of staying put and Going to Ground to improve their cover saves.

The idea that 40k is checkers just doesn't hold for me. The only real difference is that 40k places structure around it, and things in place to helps make things simpler to start (SMs, AoBR). Yes, WM has more special rules on each unit, like in 40k2, but I don't think that defines the game so much. If you give your kid a "one of" Eldar Aspect army to play for 40k, I think he'd have more challenges with it compared to his SMs.

John: You are overly fixated on the specific examples within the systems and not the core systems themselves. There are three major structural differences between the 40k ruleset and the WM/H ruleset. (I've specifically not talked about vehicles, warjacks, focus etc, as they are a factor of game setting.)

1. Sequenced unit activation vs dedicated move/shoot/assault phases.

While superficially, every unit is able to move, assault and shoot in both rulesets, in the sequenced unit activation system, it is possible to clear paths for other units movement-wise, or dig other units out of an assault before those units activate. This is not possible using the "phased" system. The phased system that 40k uses permits units to both shoot and assault, which can not be done outside of special rules in WM/H due to each model's limit on one action per turn. Units may however run to engage enemy models in WM/H (while performing no combat action). This is not an option in 40k.

2. Targetting by model vs Targetting by unit.

WM/H alows units to split attacks, and while this is alowed to an extent in HTH in 40k, this is not typically allowed during shooting (unless modified by a special rule). While as stated above, units may shoot and assault in 40k, they may not split the targets of their shooting and assault. WM/H provides no such restriction as long as the unit does not break formation while performing their action. Different models in the same unit may shoot if unengaged, even if their squadmates are fighting in HTH, unlike in 40k where they are locked and can perform no other actions than fight. WM/H also gives the option to shoot into or retreat out of combat, with a very steep penalty. This is specifically disallowed in 40k. It is also possible to target FRIENDLY models with attacks in WM/H. This is also prohibited in 40k.

3. D6 to hit/wound/save vs 2D6/3D6 to hit/wound

Without getting into another pissing match about statistics, I will only say that 2D6's greater outcomes per roll alow for a wider range of effective statlines, and a more gradual progression of effectiveness. In 40k, there is a huge difference between SV3+ and SV4+, where as in Warmachine, there is less of a difference between say, ARM14 and ARM15.

Considering that in both example 1 and 2, by design of the ruleset, models within a unit in WM/H have access to a diverse range of actions - I do not see how you can assert that 40k provides a similar level of flexibility (run/shoot/assault). While 40k and WM/H both provide unit-unit interactions, WM/H provides extra options through managing the activation sequencing that is inherent in the WM/H system.

I see those as compeletely trival mechanical differences when talking about play "skill" required.

It's like how people talk about WFB block movement requiring "more skill".

40k goes "vertical" because it has Transports and other Vehicles. Along with Deep Strike / Reserves / Outflank.

The games are different, but not requiring more skill.


But if we want to be simplistic in explanations, perhaps the better way to put it is that WM is like chess and 40k is like go.

I feel like I should endorse something...

But if we want to be simplistic in explanations, perhaps the better way to put it is that WM is like chess and 40k is like go.

Warmachine is chess, 40k is magic the gathering. Army construction and deployment is vastly more important than the game play itself. There is certainly a less extreme case of rock paper scissors going on in WARMACHINE. Lets not be coy, 40k is a simple game with very few tactical choices that don't just play themselves for you. Anti tank weapons shoot tanks and high value targets, the little dudes run at and punch eachother, unit facing is meaningless, line of sight obstructions are relatively meaningless, but special rules inherent to army choices make the game. There is no nob biker army or all mech force in warmachine, there is far less threat of having your army be totally invalidated by the opponents choices. A game of 40k can be played almost on autopilot.

I prefer 40k, though I would love to have it be a bit more complicated in it's method of play. Adding simple things like Going to Ground helped a lot, though they could certainly go considerably farther (range modifiers would be nice for one, as would the removal of the whole "one dude moved so the whole squad moved" BS).

It cost 74.98 for the boxed set of AOBR.
34.98 for a squad of space marines
21.98 for a box of boyz
29.98 for a truck
29.98 for a rhino

191.90 sans tax.


32.99 for a box of Khador
29.99 for an extra Destroyer
32.99 for a woodsman box set
10.99 for a woodsman blister
10.99 for another woodsman blister
47.99 for a box of Boomhowlers company
15.99 for a blister of 2 trollkins
15.99 for another blister of trollkins
22.99 for Herne and Arquebus Jonne
9.99 for a manhunter


230.90 sans tax


Either game you want to play, you are paying the piper.

What is the price in YOUR area?

I don't even know what the prices at the new hobby shop are like. The only thing I bought there was some glue and a box of Chaos Terminators for my dad's Christmas Present.

However, they're looking at stocking Infinity which has me SUPER excited!

I just bought hundreds of dollars of Tyranids. No way I'm switching!

I'd say that if one's angry at GW, it'd be a far better thing to buy into a hobby that lets one channel that anger into something useful, such as squash, rugby or lacemaking.

@Grot: The SM army you listed is under 750 points even with a very generous helping of wargear. The Ork army is even less. While it is true that you can start playing with such small forces, most organized play seems to be 1000 and above, with 1500 being an average size.

Your Khador army is still 700+ points by MK1 and probably enough to play a 50 point game in MK2. Considering organized play typically starts at 500/35 points (MK1/MK2), a more accurate comparison might be:

Cygnar Starter: $50
Cygnar Long Gunners: $30 + $20 to make full squad
Eyriss Mage Hunter of Ios: $9

Total: $109.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Agamemnon2 wrote:I'd say that if one's angry at GW, it'd be a far better thing to buy into a hobby that lets one channel that anger into something useful, such as squash, rugby or lacemaking.

1 vote for basket weaving.

It's also good to keep in mind that not everyone wants to play Marines or Orks, which takes AoBR out of the picture, making the comparison far different.

Agamemnon2 wrote:not everyone wants to play Marines

You lost me

Why play mariens when you can be one?

http://www.marines.com/

on topic. the more i see of PP the more i like it, as well as infinity witch is growing here like weeds. if i were to finally go out and buy a small army for Cygnar and Khador to run against each other what would you say would be the best way to go. i have the widows box, and the Cy starter. and was hoping to get trenchers case they look so awesome... whats next?

PP prices in the UK seem to be pretty high, at least when I was playing (granted that was about 6 years ago).

And notice that they have altered the points values, and from what I've heard online (may be wrong) the rules now allow larger games to be played, much as 40k once did...

That is the only reason Warmahordes requires fewer models, it's relatively new. When creating a game, you have finite resources available for your range, so you start small. No point making the rule set itself for grandiose battles, so stick to Skirmish.

Then, once people have been playing for a while and the game is established, their collections will grow, and they will naturally wish to play larger games. And every game system I've encountered has a sort of upper limit at which it ceases to be well paced. So you streamline. LotR and WotR are another good example here.

Though I do hope to see more companies that have survived the first few years ala PP streamling, I also hope that unlike GW, they don't make the previous rules unavailable. Always nice to have options, no?

@MDG: You mean for keeping the old (obsolete) rulesets in production indefinitely?

For PP, that's a minor problem, because they use stat cards and bundle them with the minis. It'd be like getting a brand new Hellhound or Fire Prism with a 2E Datafax enclosed.

Mad doc:
one thing you failed to mention about price is the cost of supliments and books that change every few years.
regardless of the cost of the minis, the actuall rules to play the game come in real cheep on PP's side. actually if your looking at owning all the codex and main rules your looking at a sum thats unbeliveable compared to PP. and lets not forget that as soon as you buy all codexs 2 to 3 will become obsolete in the next 12 months. with the actual rules also becoming obsolete in less than or around 5 years.....
WoW, thats alot of Money. so tell me again how PP is comparitively more expensive than GW 6 years ago??

(and yes PP comes out with suplements too, but no where near as expensive and generalized as GW. the cost of a couple of codex a year more than covers PP)
and lets not forget GW prices will rise again like bad Chilli, around january or the end of if rumor is correct.

so back to my question on PP. any ideas on a build?

Bit of wire crossing going on here matey.

The 6 years was only about PP's length of 'service'. Might be 7 or 8, not sure.

But when 40k first came out (21 years ago, which is kind of scary!) they had a similar structure to PP in terms of supplements, content and indeed model range. No more than a handful of models required, the core rule book had more than enough to get you started in terms of lists, and the supplements likewise seemed more generalised. As time ticked on, and more models were produced, the same of course happens with rules. Then 2nd Edition hits, and we have Codecies for 40k, and around 4th Edition Fantasy, Army Books.

Not saying PP are going to go down the same route, just using a timescale to put a slightly different perspective on things.

i see your point now. thanks for clarifying.

No problem dude. I have a history of muddling my posts!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:@MDG: You mean for keeping the old (obsolete) rulesets in production indefinitely?

For PP, that's a minor problem, because they use stat cards and bundle them with the minis. It'd be like getting a brand new Hellhound or Fire Prism with a 2E Datafax enclosed.

Perhaps not indefinite production, but certainly available. I mean since GW started upscaling the games, the Interwebs have been born, so it should be easy enough to keep the original page layout PDF's online for those want a nostalgic kick. Sadly I'd imagine the original 40k and Fantasy stuff would have been printed the old fashioned way with Plates and that, which are generally sent to be recycled once they have expired, or are no longer necessary.

Cryonicleech wrote:Games Workshop, over the course of its lifespan, has made plenty of mistakes. White Dwarf is pretty bad as it is, the new website is a tad rubbish, prices climbing, etc.

However, which company hasn't? I'm not asking you to not quit, or to love GW heart and soul, but the company is obviously trying. Now, trying and failing, now that depends on your point of view, but at least they try.

More thana few dont go out and do stuff that intentional antagonizes its fan base. Those arent mistakes. Those were deliberate.

The only other company that I recall that has done that was WOTC during the the 4E lead up to release where some of their hype they pretty much bad mouthed 3.x and its fans. But even once the release happened that all stopped.

GW? Seems to do stuff that annoys its fan base over and over and over again. They only thing the company is trying is many of its fans patience.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fateweaver wrote:I guess I'm not really seeing how you MUST spend X amount of dollars on a 40k army to enjoy it.

40k in 40 minutes can be played with 400 pts and depending on what you buy won't cost much more than the starter box for WM.

Good luck, overall, finding people that will want to play consistantly at a 500pt level. Just eth same as findinging people to play battle boxes. Someone might want to play once and a while, but most people want to play with many options in the codex. Which is why Apocolypse is very popular. People want to play with lots of models majority of time.

I liek 40k in 40 minutes. But you couldnt get me to play it over and over and over again.

"@Grot: The SM army you listed is under 750 points even with a very generous helping of wargear. The Ork army is even less. While it is true that you can start playing with such small forces, most organized play seems to be 1000 and above, with 1500 being an average size.

Your Khador army is still 700+ points by MK1 and probably enough to play a 50 point game in MK2. Considering organized play typically starts at 500/35 points (MK1/MK2), a more accurate comparison might be:

Cygnar Starter: $50
Cygnar Long Gunners: $30 + $20 to make full squad
Eyriss Mage Hunter of Ios: $9

Total: $109."


???? And your point?

GW- I noted a 2 starter armies and a taste. For PP I noted 1 battlegroup and 12 man merc contingent. And as to the basic out of the box set, you have already alluded to, and I have experienced- that people do not play skirmish games of warmachine. My small force was my forey back into the PP "Hobby."

Contrary to popular belief, Warmachine is not cheaper for the buck. We'll find out what happens with the plastic jacks, but if what I expect is going to happen, they will pull a few more pages out of GW's book and try to claim some sort of ace in the hole excuse as to thier price increase like GW did.

Either- I have to buy a new kindey. I have to pay for the plastic injection machines, ( Or my old ladies plastic mams) The Economy. ect.ect.ect.

Make no mistake about it, I really don't give a damn about the price. I knew excatly what I was getting into when I picked up the Khador box and the others, If price was that much of an issue to ME, I would have taken that boxed set and thrown it across the store with a pouty pout pout face and kicked sand.

My whole thing is that-
Just make sure that when someone tells you "To Hell with GW, I'm going back to Privateer...." And then tries to claim it is because of cost knows that they are only fooling themselves. It doesn't MATTER how much a minis game costs.

THEY ALL COST. Its just a matter of how much you are willing to pay.

Okay, outright question to shine some final perspective on the GWvPP ongoing, mind numbing price debate.

How much, at current prices, have you spent on your PP collection, and how much on your GW collection. Break it down to the actual amount as well.

Then do the same for your usual army. That way we get a decent comparisson, nes pas?

both hobbies are expensive. go with what you like. im off 40k atm, just so sick of the game, but im still painting it. im playing warmachine alot right now though, and really enjoying it.

Mind numbing?

Its not that big of a deal to figure out.

I broke it down to a basic get in the door to it, it is just as I wrote, minus state tax on my end... Where I live.

Where you live it breaks down to how much is one basic army cost. I mean basic as something you can build up and put right on the table.

I used the basic of the basic for my comparison.

the AOBR, which gives you a good start on 2 armies, Orks and Space Marines.

And

a Khador box of 2 jacks and a caster, and additional jack, a ten man unit, a solo, and a couple of attachments (The Mercs.)

Now thats not accounting for discounts , specail deals, percentage drops per area, state and local tax, country tax, etc. Thats just how much it costs in my area.

Unit for unit, cost per cost, you can look at it in different lights.

Cost is relative to the one who wants to pay.


Put it another way-

If you were to walk into your LGS, decide out of the blue that you wanted to invest yourt ime, money and energy into a game system, there is more to the issue then the simple angle of monitary cost.

See I don't think thats a fair comparisson.

Fantasy for instance, really comes into it's own around 2,000 points (though I'm enjoying 2250 at the moment) as you get enough slots to really get the toys out, but still lack the points to get absolutely everything.

I'll kick off with my latest army, Skaven.

Skaven Army Book - £15
2 Screaming Bell Kits (One is a Plague Furnace) £70
2 Skaven Stormvermin Boxes - £60
3 Skaven Clanrat Boxes - £60
2 Skaven Plague Monk Boxes (I only use 30 of them though) - £36
1 Carnosaur, 1 Necromunda Caller, 1 Watcher In The Water Tentacles (to make my Hellpit Abomination) - £60 all in
1 Doomwheel - £20

So all in, thats £321 straight from GW, if my addition is up.

Grot 6 wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, Warmachine is not cheaper for the buck. We'll find out what happens with the plastic jacks, but if what I expect is going to happen, they will pull a few more pages out of GW's book and try to claim some sort of ace in the hole excuse as to thier price increase like GW did.

We already know the price of plastic jacks, the heavies are all $35. Which is considerably more expensive than the metals. +25% in the case of Cryx, which used to be the cheapest.

Didn't Slayers cost something like $15 when WM came out?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Didn't Slayers cost something like $15 when WM came out?

Heavy jacks always competed with space marine dreadnauts if I remember right. They always seemed to price themselves to their major competitor and then advertise that you need less to play. Thats the big crux of the issue, they aren't cheaper, you just need less. You need even fewer heroclix, and if you buy a pack of cards you can spend like 2 dollars. It's all in how much you want to own, there's no real inherent value to the volume of miniatures required to play. Some people like a more sweeping "army" game, versus a more in depth squad level affair. Due to it's scale 40K's simpler ruleset can still maintain a level of complication, huge games of warmachine start to bog down fairly quickly because it becomes a bit too in depth.

@Grot: In the interest of a more real world comparison:

My current tournament SM list: 1750

Librarian
2x Tactical w/ Powerfist Sgt, Lascannon/Flamer, Razorback
1x Tactical w/ Powerfist Sgt, Multimelta, Meltagun, Combimelta, Drop Pod
2x Ironclad Dreadnoughts, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod
2x Vindicator
1x Landspeeder Tornado

Cost:
$15 - Librarian
$75 - Black Reach for 2x Tac and 2x Dread in trade. A stretch, but we're going for cheap here.
$35 - Tactical for sgt bits and meltagun
$17 - Captain for combiweapon bits and powerfist
$35 - Devestators for Heavy weapons and Sgt bits
$70 - Razorback x2
$90 - Drop Pod x3
$82.50 - Vindicator x2
$30 - Landspeeder
--------------------------
Total: $449.50 GW MSRP in US Funds
Bonus: You have 10 extra terminators, assuming you were able to trade the black reach stuff and didn't buy it seperately.

750 points Khador MK1 Tournament List - I do not know what normal tournament sizes are as our group rarely plays tournament 1000 point games due to time constraints - in the interest completeness, I will pro-rate the cost by the appropriate amount:

$10 - Kommandant Irusk
$40 - Devestator
$84 - MOW Demolition Corps (Full)
$20 - Widowmakers
$47 - Assault Kommandos x8
$41 - Winterguard base w/ UA
$30 - MOW Drakhun
$36 - Greylords Ternion x2
$15 - Yuri the Axe
$18 - Manhunter x2
$10 - Eyriss
-----------------------------------
Total: $311 PP MSRP in US Funds
Prorate to 1000 points: $415

lord_blackfang wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, Warmachine is not cheaper for the buck. We'll find out what happens with the plastic jacks, but if what I expect is going to happen, they will pull a few more pages out of GW's book and try to claim some sort of ace in the hole excuse as to thier price increase like GW did.

We already know the price of plastic jacks, the heavies are all $35. Which is considerably more expensive than the metals. +25% in the case of Cryx, which used to be the cheapest.

The added price is, in theory, because each kit will include parts to make one of multiple 'jacks (e.g. Cygnar's will make an ironclad, defender, and the new one with the two gatling guns).

That said, cost is relative based on what people are willing to pay and what you'll have fun with.

syr8766 wrote:
The added price is, in theory, because each kit will include parts to make one of multiple 'jacks (e.g. Cygnar's will make an ironclad, defender, and the new one with the two gatling guns).

I just wonder why this explanation completely appeases PP fans but it never worked for GW. We're absolutely outraged if a plastic kit isn't considerably cheaper than the metal version, regardless of modularity and extra bitz.

I just wonder why this explanation completely appeases PP fans but it never worked for GW. We're absolutely outraged if a plastic kit isn't considerably cheaper than the metal version, regardless of modularity and extra bitz

.

Thats very true and very funny.

lord_blackfang wrote:

syr8766 wrote:
The added price is, in theory, because each kit will include parts to make one of multiple 'jacks (e.g. Cygnar's will make an ironclad, defender, and the new one with the two gatling guns).

I just wonder why this explanation completely appeases PP fans but it never worked for GW. We're absolutely outraged if a plastic kit isn't considerably cheaper than the metal version, regardless of modularity and extra bitz.

Some do complain about it, but I imagine they're the same ones who complained about gW.

Grot 6 wrote:Mind numbing?

Its not that big of a deal to figure out.

I broke it down to a basic get in the door to it, it is just as I wrote, minus state tax on my end... Where I live.

Where you live it breaks down to how much is one basic army cost. I mean basic as something you can build up and put right on the table.

I used the basic of the basic for my comparison.

the AOBR, which gives you a good start on 2 armies, Orks and Space Marines.

And

a Khador box of 2 jacks and a caster, and additional jack, a ten man unit, a solo, and a couple of attachments (The Mercs.)

Now thats not accounting for discounts , specail deals, percentage drops per area, state and local tax, country tax, etc. Thats just how much it costs in my area.

Unit for unit, cost per cost, you can look at it in different lights.

Cost is relative to the one who wants to pay.


Put it another way-

If you were to walk into your LGS, decide out of the blue that you wanted to invest yourt ime, money and energy into a game system, there is more to the issue then the simple angle of monitary cost.

Yeah, okay. 10 man kossite unit? Way to pad man. Boomhowler? Great choice. I mean, really, I don't understand how you can't see that you're giving a very tipped example of price range. "If you buy the bare minimum and save a lot with the AoBR and play only one or the other of those races, it'll be a ton cheaper than a bunch of superfluous and otherwise very expensive units that are maxed out!"
Keezus has it right.

lord_blackfang wrote:

syr8766 wrote:
The added price is, in theory, because each kit will include parts to make one of multiple 'jacks (e.g. Cygnar's will make an ironclad, defender, and the new one with the two gatling guns).

I just wonder why this explanation completely appeases PP fans but it never worked for GW. We're absolutely outraged if a plastic kit isn't considerably cheaper than the metal version, regardless of modularity and extra bitz.

Not being a complete donkey-cave to your fans probably helps.

Sidstyler wrote:
Not being a complete donkey-cave to your fans probably helps.

Certainly doesn't hurt things.

Also doesn't hurt that the PP community has far less rabble-rousers spreading misery and hatred like a pestilence.

Are you trying to be ironic Aggy?

Aggy, thats right, PP doesnt.... and do you know why it doesnst?
The rabble rousing pestilance spreaders dont get bailer poled by PP.
There is a saying. starts off, Fool me once.....

GW flipped off alot of people, multiple times in a very short time. serves em right to be blasted and ridiculed.

Now enough with name calling.

Edit: and still no one answered my questions on list suggestions.

Hawkins wrote:
Now enough with name calling.
.

Indeed.