I was told yesterday by the local GW-selling hobby store owner that GW will raise the prices of some of their product by 10% at some point in february. For example, the 30,- euro troops boxes will become 33,-.

This seems to have become an annual thing, so it is not really a surprise. Any additional confirmation (from other store owners maybe) ?

While I might disagree with some people here about certain legal matters, I hate these GW price increases just as much as everybody else.




In better news, the store had 40% off all their boxes/blisters/codex in the days leading up to Christmas, so I ended up leaving with a lot more stuff than I originally expected

False , completely false!


I think GW calls it price "adjustment"

But yes you are right , boo the price going up...
im sure lots of the plastic "special / elite" kits will go up ><

It is also conveniently just before the march Battle Missions releases.

I guess the more they do that, the more incentive there is for the likes of Chapterhouse/Pig Iron/Ramshackle/Maxmini/Heresy/Hasslefree etc. to improve, and do a wider range of minis, and so forth.

Ian Sturrock wrote:I guess the more they do that, the more incentive there is for the likes of Chapterhouse/Pig Iron/Ramshackle/Maxmini/Heresy/Hasslefree etc. to improve, and do a wider range of minis, and so forth.

Yeah, that's how it will be. GW will gradually lose more and more sales to those guys, until they eventually fade away or get their gak together.

I for one welcome my new MaxMini Overlords!

Seriously, those guys rock!

although this has happened in the past, there is no sign of a price change on the radar right now

Well, GW uses price bands, so it can't be a straight 10% price hike. Let's hope OP's source doesn't know what he's talking about.

And thus we now know the reason the Trygon doesn't cost as much as a Land Raider... because in two months, it's going to.

So that's 3 price rises in less than two years. Good form GW. Good form.

My local GW guy, hinted at price rise.
But more to do with VAT raise.
Here in england

H: You brought enough stuff mate, you should have a discount card by now


I plan on having my daemon army brought before then, so ill be painting them for a long time, so i dont think ill be buying anything new after the rise.
Also, after all of said rises, im now tempted to look into warmachine lol.

JD21290 wrote:H: You brought enough stuff mate, you should have a discount card by now

I do.

And if anyone is tired of GW's bs and is looking to start a new game, Catalyst Game Labs just announced a price reduction on all their core rulebooks (BattleTech, Shadowrun, etc.).

I'm too invested in 40K with several armies now, but I'm gonna start looking at alternative mini lines to proxy with. Almost no one runs "official" RTT's anymore, and I have GW brand armies for the rare occasion I need one. Locally I've been talking with my friends and game stores. I'll start running events that will not require GW models, as long as the armies are as wysiwyg as possible, and aren't modeling for advantage.

I've been tired of the GW attitude and party line for a while, and I intend to hurt 'em in their pocketbook. I'm also glad to see that Adepticon is branching out into other good mini games. If GW can't bother to write decent rules or support organized play, I'll go to independent events and local tournaments only.

I really hope when they raise prices so damn high no one buys anything, they realize how far they've fallen.

Right after I get a leman Russ from which to obtain a template to make some wooden copies, I think i'll stop buying direct from gw or store sales. Ill buy other ranges from my Lgs

Does anyone have actualy confirmation? Or is it just that the VAT will go back up in UK. This would apply to everyone, because as far as I'm aware of, they decided to let all of their customers benefit from the reduced VAT, even those not in the UK.

karimabuseer wrote:because as far as I'm aware of, they decided to let all of their customers benefit from the reduced VAT, even those not in the UK.

Can you confirm that? because i cant remember any time that GW reduced anything.

Yeah VAT is going back up- erm and yeah since the VAT reduction- GW gave that straight back to the customers unlike alot of the other stores *grumbles about the boots next door to his local store*

*psssst*

That's why I buy everything from the Warstore....

How much more can they raise it?

It's already out of control, now with all the other douche moves they have been pulling, they actually think that they are going to get away with this?


GW let anyone benifit from what again? Where did you get that information?

I would question the validity of the source.

GW has kept a tight lid on things lately. Why would they leak something to one random retailer? A retailer that is dumping his GW stuff at 40% off. Generally, you won't find a store dumping product that they are happy with.

This ranks up there with "A friend who knows a Redshirt told me....."

LunaHound wrote:

karimabuseer wrote:because as far as I'm aware of, they decided to let all of their customers benefit from the reduced VAT, even those not in the UK.

Can you confirm that? because i cant remember any time that GW reduced anything.

Yes. Look at White Dwarf. Products have a little cross next to them, and your are told about it at the bottom of the page. I'm not 100% about this though, seeing as I've lost my White Dwarf bag. I know if definitely applied to Forge world though. They had a notice on their website.

LunaHound wrote:

karimabuseer wrote:because as far as I'm aware of, they decided to let all of their customers benefit from the reduced VAT, even those not in the UK.

Can you confirm that? because i cant remember any time that GW reduced anything.

By the Canadian flag next to your name, I'm guessing you are in Canada.
You should remember October 2008 when Canada had an across the board price reduction.
Easy to remember what you don't like, and overlook a 10-20% price drop on everything in the shop.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
And if anyone is tired of GW's bs and is looking to start a new game, Catalyst Game Labs just announced a price reduction on all their core rulebooks (BattleTech, Shadowrun, etc.).

Sadly, while I love shadowrun, 4th edtion books arent nearly as good as the older ones.

deitpike:

It's still considerably cheaper to order from a discounter like the Warstore or Great Canadian Miniatures (if your time isn't valuable and you don't mind waiting two months for your stuff).

Another price hike so soon after the two rather large ones in fall 2008 and spring 2009 would be rough on their customers.

because i cant remember any time that GW reduced anything.

GW has reduced prices on many different items or introduced newly revised core product lines at reduced prices many times during my 20 years in the hobby, yet there is always at least one post like the one quoted above in any price discussion. None of us are happy with the GW price increases since Sept. 2008, but let's at least be fair when criticizing and not fabricate things to be angry about. There have been times that GW reduced pricing on various items. Need an example? When the Tau Battleforce was introduced at $90 US five years ago the prices of existing Battleforces and Battalions were reduced to that same $90, making some of the previously pricier sets like the Ogre Battalion or Tyranid Battleforce terrific bundle priced deals. Need another example? Chaos Knights went from $50 US to $22 overnight in November 2008. Even after raising their price to $24.75 a few months later, they are still less than half of what they were a year ago. There are more examples, but the point is made. Now why do I have the feeling I'll be making the same point again in just a few weeks or months? Many gamers have conveniently short memories I guess when looking for "hate GW ammo".

Grot 6 wrote:How much more can they raise it?

It's already out of control, now with all the other douche moves they have been pulling, they actually think that they are going to get away with this?


GW let anyone benifit from what again? Where did you get that information?

Troops used to come in boxes of about 16 for $35. Apparently they realized that eventually that price sticker was going to look pretty BS and scare even MORE people off, but they wanted to raise the prices and get even more money, so...how?

They're in boxes of 10 now for $22. It looks like a price drop, but it actually costs more now to get a comparable amount of models, but since the box is only $22 no one really cares. And now it begins. First they'll go up to $24.75 (like the gaunt boxes). Then $26.75. And it'll keep going up a little at a time until the price is once again outrageous and you're paying almost $70 for a 20-man squad of Guardsmen. Then they'll come in boxes of 5 for $18 and it'll look like they're being charitable again!


Anyway...why does GW hate us?

Need an example? When the Tau Battleforce was introduced at $90 US five years ago the prices of existing Battleforces and Battalions were reduced to that same $90, making some of the previously pricier sets like the Ogre Battalion or Tyranid Battleforce terrific bundle priced deals.

Yeah, and look at them now, realizing their "mistake" and doing their damndest to get rid of said "deals" by nerfing the contents and raising the price.

Sidstyler wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:How much more can they raise it?

It's already out of control, now with all the other douche moves they have been pulling, they actually think that they are going to get away with this?


GW let anyone benifit from what again? Where did you get that information?

Troops used to come in boxes of about 16 for $35. Apparently they realized that eventually that price sticker was going to look pretty BS and scare even MORE people off, but they wanted to raise the prices and get even more money, so...how?

They're in boxes of 10 now for $22. It looks like a price drop, but it actually costs more now to get a comparable amount of models, but since the box is only $22 no one really cares. And now it begins. First they'll go up to $24.75 (like the gaunt boxes). Then $26.75. And it'll keep going up a little at a time until the price is once again outrageous and you're paying almost $70 for a 20-man squad of Guardsmen. Then they'll come in boxes of 5 for $18 and it'll look like they're being charitable again!


Anyway...why does GW hate us?

Need an example? When the Tau Battleforce was introduced at $90 US five years ago the prices of existing Battleforces and Battalions were reduced to that same $90, making some of the previously pricier sets like the Ogre Battalion or Tyranid Battleforce terrific bundle priced deals.

Yeah, and look at them now, realizing their "mistake" and doing their damndest to get rid of said "deals" by nerfing the contents and raising the price.

Because too many people falls for the GW trick / example you just gave Sidstyler .
The price difference / adjustment is like this:

Brass scorpion im not criticizing or fabricating or angry . At most i find the "adjustments" funny. ( seems like they take us for monkeys )
Aslong as GW doesnt bankrupt or end up failing as a company , it does not matter to me.

Or, maybe, we actually make real money and have real expenses so a few extra dollars a year for toy soldiers is a drop in the bucket.

The rest of you should take on a second paper-route...;P

Nurglitch wrote:Or, maybe, we actually make real money and have real expenses so a few extra dollars a year for toy soldiers is a drop in the bucket.

The rest of you should take on a second paper-route...;P

Nurglitch... do you honestly ( and i do mean honestly ) feel the complaints are due to people not been able to afford them?
The complaints from me are , GW are raising the price as if plastic are made out of platinum.

The guy might have just told you that to sell off more of his stock. A 40% discount sounds like a going out of business fire sale. It's especially believable considering GW's picked up the third world dictator-bug this year.

Sid, the price changes on Battleforces/Battalions is actually from them moving away from trying to cram a semi-effective force into a $90 box, and moving more towards providing a plastic core of an army and then pricing it accordingly.

Just sayin'. They announced that ages ago, with the Ork Battleforce I believe it was.

If thats true , then whats the theory behind the latest IG battle force...

Half a troops choice and a fast attack model you're going to want to replace as soon as you see the other options in the codex.

Lunahound:

Of course people can afford those prices. People can always afford what they want. And I can assure you that any comparison between GW plastic models and platinum is laughable hyperbole. The fact is that some people are on a tighter budget than others.

GW is a relatively inexpensive hobby. Given how cheap the hobby is, the only explanation is that the people complaining about the prices must be either really tight-fisted, or live near the poverty line.

Heck, up to recently I was living below the poverty line. I scrimped and saved and traded, and managed to build two new Space Marine armies which I'm still expanding. And you know what? The GW prices are irrelevant to me because they were a damn-sight cheaper than just about anything else I enjoyed. GW provided me with a hobby I could enjoy when I was a poor student, and it provides me with a hobby I can enjoy as a relatively successful worker.

Price was irrelevant to me then, and price is irrelevant to me now.

We have a saying in my industry (financial services):

"Cost is only an issue in the absence of value."

Nurglitch wrote:
Price was irrelevant to me then, and price is irrelevant to me now.

We dont have the same view on price and its worth. I cannot debate with you over that because
i know we arnt the same.

Lunahound:

I don't debate. However, if you'd like to discuss it, there's simple ways of discussing the relation of cost to value that are universal to everyone so we don't have to get bogged down in "my view vs your view" childishness.

Nurglitch wrote:Lunahound:
I don't debate. However, if you'd like to discuss it, there's simple ways of discussing the relation of cost to value that are universal to everyone so we don't have to get bogged down in "my view vs your view" childishness.

Yes discuss , my bad using the wrong word.
Alright , you would have to lead though and i'll do my best to reply .
Though i must say our discussion seem to have jumped in a weird time as im currently waiting for an answer regarding the battle force , especially the IG.
Which again the person has refused to respond yet again.

LunaHound wrote:If thats true , then whats the theory behind the latest IG battle force...

Are you really going to tell me that a Command Squad, a Heavy Weapons Squad, and a pair of Infantry Squads isn't useful to a Guard player?

Yeah. Sentinels are suboptimal compared to the Valkyrie spam. But properly utilized, a pair of Armoured Sentinel squads with Autocannons/Plasma Cannons can wreak some serious havoc against a MC heavy army.

It doesnt surprise me at all even if it doesnt happen when OP said itll happen eventually anyway. Now with that being said i dont agree in fact i am quite irritated because i really enjoy the hobby and like models but wish they would pull their head out of their arse and see that people are tired of being screwed and like said before more independent tournies will be set up and let other companies models used in the owners armies.

Kanluwen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:If thats true , then whats the theory behind the latest IG battle force...

Are you really going to tell me that a Command Squad, a Heavy Weapons Squad, and a pair of Infantry Squads isn't useful to a Guard player?

Yeah. Sentinels are suboptimal compared to the Valkyrie spam. But properly utilized, a pair of Armoured Sentinel squads with Autocannons/Plasma Cannons can wreak some serious havoc against a MC heavy army.

By all means , that part i agree with you ( the whole *core part )
But there is something else about the IG force that is out of line ( hence i brought it up , or else sid already covered it )

Vindicator#9 wrote:It doesnt surprise me at all even if it doesnt happen when OP said itll happen eventually anyway. Now with that being said i dont agree in fact i am quite irritated because i really enjoy the hobby and like models but wish they would pull their head out of their arse and see that people are tired of being screwed and like said before more independent tournies will be set up and let other companies models used in the owners armies.

Thats impossible unfortunately , GW know people will buy the price they charge , hence have no reason to not pull their head out of their arse.
Unless their statics show the high price are actually enough to effect with their profits , it'll keep on going . and going.
I mean even the resolute ones have tried ( the boycott thread ) didnt get too far ...

...Why?

Why would they raise the prices? Again? To make more money? What excellent logic! Drive off customers! Brilliant. I must remember that if I start a business.

Honestly, there is no real reason prices should go up. I already buy from a discount retailer (http://www.phoenixforge.com.au/ if anyone's interested), and if the prices go up, it may drive me to another game altogether.

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:If thats true , then whats the theory behind the latest IG battle force...

Are you really going to tell me that a Command Squad, a Heavy Weapons Squad, and a pair of Infantry Squads isn't useful to a Guard player?

Yeah. Sentinels are suboptimal compared to the Valkyrie spam. But properly utilized, a pair of Armoured Sentinel squads with Autocannons/Plasma Cannons can wreak some serious havoc against a MC heavy army.

By all means , that part i agree with you ( the whole *core part )
But there is something else about the IG force that is out of line ( hence i brought it up , or else sid already covered it )

Please be more specific.

Or are you talking about the fact that the IG battleforce is $95 versus the others priced at $90?

It's no real secret that the older battleforces are still under a lot of the old constrictions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

alexwars1 wrote:...Why?

Why would they raise the prices? Again? To make more money? What excellent logic! Drive off customers! Brilliant. I must remember that if I start a business.

Honestly, there is no real reason prices should go up. I already buy from a discount retailer (http://www.phoenixforge.com.au/ if anyone's interested), and if the prices go up, it may drive me to another game altogether.

You do realize that this is in no way confirmed, whatsoever right?

It's no real secret that the older battleforces are still under a lot of the old constrictions.

Why do you think this is though?

Hey, everybody is being way to hard on GW on pricing. It's completely unfair, they've had some additional operating costs this last quarter. I mean lawyers aren't cheap and with all the C&D business they've had to pay extra for legal advice. I mean really it's the community's fault, if they would police themselves better and avoid infringing on GW's IP then this wouldn't be a problem.

Because they haven't been updated...?

And because, if I had to guess, the contents of the Guard battleforces come out to $129 USD.
It's a $39 discount, moreso if you buy it from The Warstore or a shop that gives you a discount up front.

Kanluwen wrote:Because they haven't been updated...?

And because, if I had to guess, the contents of the Guard battleforces come out to $129 USD.
It's a $39 discount, moreso if you buy it from The Warstore or a shop that gives you a discount up front.

So basically you feel that the current $90 battle force / battalions are too good of a deal ,
and GW should raise them to new prices like IG and Skaven?

PS kanluwen , when do you think we can have a little chat in PM ? i have some extra semi OT / OT questions i always wanted to ask.

Lunahound:

Okay, so let's call the price of a good the "cost", and how much you want it the "value". Now, the reason we're differentiating between these things is because you only have a finite amount of money and usually stuff is priced at a constant rate rather than as a percentage of your income. That means that a $5 good may be worth more to you than to me. That doesn't change the cost, but it does change the value so that you'll be more willing to fit the cost of the good in your budget. I'm pretty sure you're aware of all these notions.

Now, if I have a considerably larger budget, that $5 will be a much smaller portion of my budget regardless of its value to me. After all, some people buy stuff that would be considered expensive simply because they can afford it out of pocket - they're that rich that their pocket money is more than most people's net worth. The cost to me of that $5 good is proportionately less.

So we have three dimensions, if you will, of cost, value, and let's call it 'budget'. So long as the value is greater than the cost divided by the budget, I, as a consumer, will remain flexible regarding the cost.

Given this framework:

People who don't value the product more than the cost as a percentage of their budget shouldn't complain because this isn't a hobby that they value enough to participate. I like expensive scotch, but I don't complain that I can't fit a decent supply in my budget - I just don't value it enough to pay those prices, and I stick with a bottle every couple of months.

People who value the product more than the cost as a percentage of their budget will continue to buy the product and be indifferent to price increases. That's me, by the way.

People who value the product but can't meet the cost as a percentage of their budget must be working on really tight budgets because GW aren't selling cars or motorcycles or even video-games. I value the product more than a percentage of my budget because it's such a small percentage of my budget. I could afford it even when it constituted a much larger percentage of my budget. And so I'm confused with people complaining about the price increases if they're still interested in playing. If the prices are too much, then people calmly throw in the towel and move on.

It's like love and hate, I think. Regardless of the cognitive content that makes an emotion love or hate, there's a strong feeling. The fact that people are taking the time to complain suggests to me that they still care enough that v > c/b.

The fact is that GW doesn't hate us. GW loves us: we keep them afloat because we feel strongly enough about their hobby to keep paying. Gamers are nick-named "Grognards" because they'll grumble at anything, because they like grumbling. If it wasn't prices, it would be something else (like the rules, or the models, or the other games, or whatever).

The time to start considering what's going on will be when, instead of complaining, or posting messages, people just sell off their stuff, stop posting on forums, and move onto pastures that they actually value more ("greener".

What do you think, Lunahound?

Nurglitch wrote:Lunahound:

Okay, so let's call the price of a good the "cost", and how much you want it the "value". Now, the reason we're differentiating between these things is because you only have a finite amount of money and usually stuff is priced at a constant rate rather than as a percentage of your income. That means that a $5 good may be worth more to you than to me. That doesn't change the cost, but it does change the value so that you'll be more willing to fit the cost of the good in your budget. I'm pretty sure you're aware of all these notions.

Now, if I have a considerably larger budget, that $5 will be a much smaller portion of my budget regardless of its value to me. After all, some people buy stuff that would be considered expensive simply because they can afford it out of pocket - they're that rich that their pocket money is more than most people's net worth. The cost to me of that $5 good is proportionately less.

This is true to some people , but it is 100% not true for the type like me , like i said im stingy , i care not if its $1 difference or $100. For me , if something isnt worth its value
then i have to laugh at companies justifying it . ( which is what im actually talking about in this thread . i know perfectly well GW is company for profit not for charity .
I just dont like how naive they take their customers for.

So we have three dimensions, if you will, of cost, value, and let's call it 'budget'. So long as the value is greater than the cost divided by the budget, I, as a consumer, will remain flexible regarding the cost.

Given this framework:

People who don't value the product more than the cost as a percentage of their budget shouldn't complain because this isn't a hobby that they value enough to participate. I like expensive scotch, but I don't complain that I can't fit a decent supply in my budget - I just don't value it enough to pay those prices, and I stick with a bottle every couple of months.

People who value the product more than the cost as a percentage of their budget will continue to buy the product and be indifferent to price increases. That's me, by the way.
Yes , i know different people have different tastes in how they fancy what to buy.

People who value the product but can't meet the cost as a percentage of their budget must be working on really tight budgets because GW aren't selling cars or motorcycles or even video-games. I value the product more than a percentage of my budget because it's such a small percentage of my budget. I could afford it even when it constituted a much larger percentage of my budget. And so I'm confused with people complaining about the price increases if they're still interested in playing. If the prices are too much, then people calmly throw in the towel and move on.

It's like love and hate, I think. Regardless of the cognitive content that makes an emotion love or hate, there's a strong feeling. The fact that people are taking the time to complain suggests to me that they still care enough that v > c/b. Yes i agree , like i have said in other threads " hmm this seems like an abusive relationship thread "

The fact is that GW doesn't hate us. GW loves us: we keep them afloat because we feel strongly enough about their hobby to keep paying. Gamers are nick-named "Grognards" because they'll grumble at anything, because they like grumbling. If it wasn't prices, it would be something else (like the rules, or the models, or the other games, or whatever).
I dont think they love or hate us. We are just numbers and figures in their business plans and formulas.

The time to start considering what's going on will be when, instead of complaining, or posting messages, people just sell off their stuff, stop posting on forums, and move onto pastures that they actually value more ("greener".
I dont particularly hate GW , i know there are greener pastures but , it is quite a suitable product when i have O.C buys.

What do you think, Lunahound?

I understand what you are trying to say , and im very impressed + honored you typed such a detailed paragraph ( im serious that you felt that im worth such effort )
Unfortunately atm i can only think of something very basic to reply >< ( but its also true )

Im stingy.

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Because they haven't been updated...?

And because, if I had to guess, the contents of the Guard battleforces come out to $129 USD.
It's a $39 discount, moreso if you buy it from The Warstore or a shop that gives you a discount up front.

So basically you feel that the current $90 battle force / battalions are too good of a deal ,
and GW should raise them to new prices like IG and Skaven?

PS kanluwen , when do you think we can have a little chat in PM ? i have some extra semi OT / OT questions i always wanted to ask.

Take a good long look at what you replied to, Luna.
Not once did I say that it was "too good of a deal".
There's a 29.20% discount inherent in the pricing(95 being 69.80% of 129, rounded to 70 for convenience and brings it to a 30% discount).
If I had to take a guess, we'll see that in all the other battleforces/battalions as they get updated.

Lunahound:

Fair enough. But the problem with so succinct a reply is that I still don't know whether you're just not that into the hobby, or you just don't have that much of a budget. I mean, could you buy more GW stuff? After all, thanks to the current dollar parity the Warstore is grotesquely cheap with its American prices, discount, and lack of HST. Plus adroit bitz-trading and some forethought will make it even cheaper (trade useless bits back into the Warstore to get useful bits).

Nurglitch wrote:Lunahound:

Fair enough. But the problem with so succinct a reply is that I still don't know whether you're just not that into the hobby, or you just don't have that much of a budget. I mean, could you buy more GW stuff? After all, thanks to the current dollar parity the Warstore is grotesquely cheap with its American prices, discount, and lack of HST. Plus adroit bitz-trading and some forethought will make it even cheaper (trade useless bits back into the Warstore to get useful bits).

Hold on , im going to finish replying to that paragraph from you earlier k?
I tried multi quoting but i just dunno how to do it , so i'll edit my replies in red .
*edit done , its in red now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
Take a good long look at what you replied to, Luna.
Not once did I say that it was "too good of a deal".

K, then what do you call or "feel" about the action of the price change for the battle forces?

What price change for the battleforces?

The fact that the Imperial Guard and Tyranid ones both have a roughly $36-$39 USD discount(and that's not including the fact that the Tyranid one has roughly a half sprue each of Hormagaunts and Gaunts in them that are unaccounted for, pricewise) involved?

They're setting a rough price point while moving away from "This HAS to fit into a $90 USD box. That's all the options they should get" to a "This battleforce will be a great starting point for smaller games" approach.
What do you expect them to do? Go through every battleforce and set them to be EXACTLY $36-$39(roughly a ballparked 28-30% discount) off the list price of all the items?

They won't do that, at least until they actually redo the battleforces to all contain roughly the same thing:

For 40k:
It looks like they're aiming towards
1x Vehicle/Transport(or heavier critters, in the case of Tyranids)
2x Troops
1x Elite or HQ.

Kanluwen wrote:They're setting a rough price point while moving away from "This HAS to fit into a $90 USD box. That's all the options they should get" to a "This battleforce will be a great starting point for smaller games" approach.
What do you expect them to do? Go through every battleforce and set them to be EXACTLY $36-$39(roughly a ballparked 28-30% discount) off the list price of all the items?

See, this is where we differ.
I expect them to just cram it in , even if the value ends up over the $36-$39 range , to $45-$50 if they have to.
Its easy , and they have done so in the previous battalions.
And which also , the source of my confusion. If this isnt a good deal to you , then where are you drawing the lines to what you feel
is the right amount for battle force 's content to be discounted as.

Is the discount really almost $40? Admittedly I haven't taken the time to add up the contents of the new IG and Tyranid boxes, but I remember the Ork box was rather pitiful.

The Guard boxes are $39 and the Tyranid one comes out to $36.

I haven't gone through and looked at the rest, but I'd imagine the discounts are really fluctuating wildly.

Kanluwen wrote:The Guard boxes are $39 and the Tyranid one comes out to $36.

I haven't gone through and looked at the rest, but I'd imagine the discounts are really fluctuating wildly.

Is that price before or after they turned the box of 20 into box of 10s + *lowered the price.

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:They're setting a rough price point while moving away from "This HAS to fit into a $90 USD box. That's all the options they should get" to a "This battleforce will be a great starting point for smaller games" approach.
What do you expect them to do? Go through every battleforce and set them to be EXACTLY $36-$39(roughly a ballparked 28-30% discount) off the list price of all the items?

See, this is where we differ.
I expect them to just cram it in , even if the value ends up over the $36-$39 range , to $45-$50 if they have to.
Its easy , and they have done so in the previous battalions.
And which also , the source of my confusion. If this isnt a good deal to you , then where are you drawing the lines to what you feel
is the right amount for battle force 's content to be discounted as.

They're a company out to make a profit. They're not going to just cram in the most popular models everyone would want for an army into a box that passes on a $45-$50 savings.

Take the new Tyranid box for example. If Carnifexes were still in there, in place of say...Genestealers and Termagaunts:
How many battleforces do you think would sell?
How many Carnifex kits would end up being sold also?

I can partially understand why they're doing it the way they are. They're putting at least one unit that people wouldn't normally take(Guard battleforces with Sentinels, for example) in there, and hoping that people will at least try them out with an open mind rather than going for powergaming builds nonstop.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The Guard boxes are $39 and the Tyranid one comes out to $36.

I haven't gone through and looked at the rest, but I'd imagine the discounts are really fluctuating wildly.

Is that price before or after they turned the box of 20 into box of 10s + *lowered the price.

That is the price of everything as it stands, currently.

Like I said in the post you quoted earlier, there are 4 of each Gaunt variant that are also included but not accounted for in the pricing discount.

Do the math yourself if you want.

Kanluwen wrote:
They're a company out to make a profit. They're not going to just cram in the most popular models everyone would want for an army into a box that passes on a $45-$50 savings.
Even profit companies still give good offers as a "redeeming" action , or else without it , everyone will easily say they are out to suck us dry. Good deals makes good company image.
Take the new Tyranid box for example. If Carnifexes were still in there, in place of say...Genestealers and Termagaunts:
How many battleforces do you think would sell? Tons
How many Carnifex kits would end up being sold also? Tons , especially the 1-3 squadron.
You see carnifex kit as a loss if everyone wants one , gets theirs in the battle force .
I see carnifex as a buffer for the whole deal . I dont like termagaunts , i dont like gene stealers ,
but the price is right + carnifex is a good buffer = me is sold.


I can partially understand why they're doing it the way they are. They're putting at least one unit that people wouldn't normally take(Guard battleforces with Sentinels, for example) in there, and hoping that people will at least try them out with an open mind rather than going for powergaming builds nonstop.

By all means i understand why they do it , that doesnt mean i have to like it.

That is the price of everything as it stands, currently.

Like I said in the post you quoted earlier, there are 4 of each Gaunt variant that are also included but not accounted for in the pricing discount.

Do the math yourself if you want.

Again you are missing my point. Im saying the amount we "saved" in the battle force is actually not all that , because how they messes with the larger squad boxes and split them by half.
Forgive me for not knowing this word in english , but GW frustrates me because their pricing tactic is like
"price weaving" ( if the literal translation doesnt make sense , just ignore this sentence )

Nurglitch wrote:It's like love and hate, I think. Regardless of the cognitive content that makes an emotion love or hate, there's a strong feeling. The fact that people are taking the time to complain suggests to me that they still care enough that v > c/b.

I think that's at least partially a fallacy. It takes almost nothing from me to complain on the internet, and also you assume I do it because I care about GW, Which might or might not be true, but it's by no means the only possible reason. What if I just like to ferment an air of discontent on this forum, or do it as a personal affront to my counterparts on the other side of the argument?

deitpike wrote:By the Canadian flag next to your name, I'm guessing you are in Canada.
You should remember October 2008 when Canada had an across the board price reduction.
Easy to remember what you don't like, and overlook a 10-20% price drop on everything in the shop.

While the 08 adjustment had more to do with GW restructuring and the weakness of the American dollar than GW "helping us out"... The large drops were mostly limited to box sets such as Battleforces dropping from $130 to $108 (17%) and regiments dropping from $45 to $40 (11%). The cost of blisters barely moved, and most metal regiments droped by $5 or stayed the same.

I suppose we should have been thankful that GW was throwing us a bone by pushing prices towards the 10-20% more expensive (as opposed to the customary 30-50% more expensive due to the weak dollar) compared to ordering it from the US - after all, it could be worse. We could be in Australia.

Agamemnon2 wrote:or do it as a personal affront to my counterparts on the other side of the argument?

Are you calling yourself a troll?

The only reason I can think of is that in Jan 1 the UK VAT rate goes back up from 15% to 17.5%. GW took the 2.5% off their prices during the time the rate was lowered, and they will legally be required to put it back on. However that does not affect any buyers outside the EU, who should never be paying VAT anyway.

Doesn't that mean KK, that GW will use it as an excuse to drive the prices up everywhere?

I mean, the UK gets a 2.5% price increase, and across the ocean where I live we get a 10% price increase when we already pay 40% more than the rest of you.

You know, like a Central Park butterfly causing a storm in Tokyo, or, in this case, Jervis coughing causing us Aussies to get fethed over once again.

Not heard anything about a price rise in the UK beyond VAT going back up, but dunno about the rest of the world. Might happen, might not. It is normally announced in WD though?

Sidstyler wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:or do it as a personal affront to my counterparts on the other side of the argument?

Are you calling yourself a troll?

I'm making no positive statements whatsoever about my own motivations. You nerf-herders can go on guessing if you like, I really couldn't give a toss what you think.

Agamemnon2 wrote:You nerf-herders can go on guessing if you like

::punch:: You people can't use that word! That's OUR word!

Well put.

Ok. There will be a price increase in the UK and FW as of January, thanks to the increase in VAT again. There may well be an additional increase as VAT may rise to 20%, as the UK Government is even more determined to destroy our economy than you lot think GW is to hate you.

Whether GW will use this to introduce a price rise elsewhere I cannot say. But as an indie stockist, we've had word of all the recent price "adjustments" over 2 months in advance, and nothing on this one yet. If I hear about it in January, I will let you know but for now I'd say that the sky probably isn't falling.

I hate this situation as much as the next person.. but you know, we've just had a recession and their sales are probably down tenfold on what they were just before it.

I don't welcome this event, but I expect it.

Business for hobbies in general has been good, and I have seen several articles confirming this. FLGS gaming groups are alive an kicking. In terms of GW specifically, they may be finishing up a pretty successful year all told.

I will just look at the shiny, then walk away and buy second hand. Good job Wrex, good job.

Agamemnon2 wrote:I'm making no positive statements whatsoever about my own motivations. You nerf-herders can go on guessing if you like, I really couldn't give a toss what you think.

...you're mean.




MEANIE!!!

This totally sucks. I am glad that my local hobby store has a 10% discount on all warhammer products.

If no one else has heard anything about a price increase, other than possibly VAT related, I'm thinking this is bogus.

The information comes from someone dumping GW stuff at 40% off. He obviously is getting out of selling GW. Why dump something that will soon cost him more to re-order? And I'm not sure what UK discount is to retailers, but it sounds like he is either getting back his wholesale cost, or losing money at 40% off.

I'd easily bet money on this that someone is just using the "Quick! Buy more now before the Price goes up!" strategy.

Now Mikhaila, let's not let logic get in the way of a good GW bashing.

mikhaila wrote:
I'd easily bet money on this that someone is just using the "Quick! Buy more now before the Price goes up!" strategy.

That's horrible.

I never see how buy now works for people. They inevitably buy more than they meant to and
then they buy something else after the price rise. "Look how much money I saved!" Yeah,
right.

mikhaila wrote:If no one else has heard anything about a price increase, other than possibly VAT related, I'm thinking this is bogus.

The information comes from someone dumping GW stuff at 40% off. He obviously is getting out of selling GW. Why dump something that will soon cost him more to re-order? And I'm not sure what UK discount is to retailers, but it sounds like he is either getting back his wholesale cost, or losing money at 40% off.

I'd easily bet money on this that someone is just using the "Quick! Buy more now before the Price goes up!" strategy.

You are almost certainly correct. What's sad is that, because GW has a history of 'price adjustments' (both public and 'stealth'), people will believe him/them.

Thing is, GW is starting to become more than I can afford / no longer cheaper than alternatives.

Consider for instance the price jump in the last five years over models that haven't made the shift from Metal to Plastic.

Example: Orcs & Goblins

Say I wanted a nice, 2000 point list. I could take Grimgor, a good 20 Bodyguard, two Shamans, three units of boyz - one of which Big 'Uns, and a Battle Standard Bearer. For the last bit of points, two bolt throwers. $300 USD, and this is a pretty small army because it has two expensive shamans, a big unit of Black Orcs, a big unit of Big 'Uns, and the regular troops are 7pt Boyz and not 3-4pt goblins. Plus, the 300+ point Lord. Sure, I guess that isn't too bad - $300 for an army you can use continuously, as opposed to a new console with anywhere between no and two games (ooh, that'll last you a few hours).

But go back five years to '04 / '05. Same 2000pt list, now $40 less. With 20 models as metal, that are plastic now. All the other models are the same: Why do the Orcs then cost $40 less (or thus cheaper than one console, and as much as another console vanilla)? And note that this is in favor of GW ATM: What if I had decided to replace Grimgor & his Black Orcs (A nice 700pt chunk of my army) with a Wyvern Boss and some Squig Herds? I've replaced, from GW's current price, about 73 dollars worth of stuff with 190. How much did I replace in the old line? I took out $90 worth of stuff, and replaced it with $110 worth of stuff. Or, new price total, $420 for the new army, $280 for the old. This is a price difference now of $140!

I know not every army is created equal, and some have got cheaper / are no more expensive now than then. But what possible reason is there for an army - with exactly no model difference in the last five years, to go up $140, or 50% of the original cost?

I love it; price hikes in a global recession. I don't know about folks in the U.K. but here in the U.S. prices are dropping on just about everything, even fuel. It doesn't make sense to raise prices when oil prices are lower, thus lower plastic cost and cheaper shipping costs, etc.

GW is about to learn a lesson in economics or at least finally learn what their particular market will bear.

Except it's no way, whatsoever, confirmed.

Jesus, talk about an overreaction from most of you to an unsubstantiated rumor.

Yes. I'm well aware that GW does have a history of raising prices(most often in the summer, mind you). However, at the same time as their "price hikes"(which are usually in the realm of $5 at most) for one price band they LOWER the prices for some other bands.

mikhaila wrote:

I'd easily bet money on this that someone is just using the "Quick! Buy more now before the Price goes up!" strategy.

Thats what I said a page ago.

Railguns wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

I'd easily bet money on this that someone is just using the "Quick! Buy more now before the Price goes up!" strategy.

Thats what I said a page ago.

Doesn't hurt to keep mentioning it to attempt to stem the tide of "OMFG GW! What the hell!" posts.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
I do.

Ok, H' has finally totally flipped and posted "I do" with a link to Maelstrom, this looks bad folks. It was bad enough hearing of some nut marrying a console game character early this month, H' is marrying a few ranges of miniatures.

Now H.B.M.C. relax and take it easy, we are here to help you. Would you like to ride in the van with the nice doctors.

This rumour is based on a single report from an independent store.

If it comes true, just don't buy any GW Stuff.
They are not the only company on Earth which makes wargame figures and rules.

The only logical response to a totally unconfirmed rumor is to stage a riot and kill all GW employees!

That'll show those random people who make up fake rumors

I was told yesterday by the local GW-selling hobby store owner that GW will raise the prices of some of their product by 10% at some point in february. For example, the 30,- euro troops boxes will become 33,-.

This seems to have become an annual thing, so it is not really a surprise. Any additional confirmation (from other store owners maybe) ?

While I might disagree with some people here about certain legal matters, I hate these GW price increases just as much as everybody else.




In better news, the store had 40% off all their boxes/blisters/codex in the days leading up to Christmas, so I ended up leaving with a lot more stuff than I originally expected

The dude you bought from was a salesman. I do the same thing in my retail store. "Thats the last one we got." "They are changing that design for next year." "I'll give you 10% off of a case." Etc etc. Sales tactics and nothing more. If I want to get rid of something, even at low profit, I'll tell the customer anything. A low profit is better then no profit.

Also, how is it this is the only vendor that does know of a price increase? He's got an inside scoop that no one in the world has?

As I remember it, price increases are announced well ahead of time (again a sales tactic) and the increased items are listed.

Calling BS on this.

Again? I wonder how many people will quit GW over this.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Again? I wonder how many people will quit GW over this.

Oh, I quit buying new stuff (Except Dark Heresy, I'm cool with that) since I heard about the Blood Bowl LRB member being sacked. This is just a mixture of a "Thank goodness I've got out" and "why couldn't I quit a few months from now?" I'll still play the hobby, in a GW store no less, but besides getting the mandatory army book I think I'm about done with my spending. Considering I have over 200 Orc models alone, plus a Wyvern Boss, about a dozen-or-so characters, several war machines, eight trolls, another hundred goblins, 30-ish spider riders, and so on (I got a lot of army boxes / skull pass boxes throughout the years through contests and the like), they'd have to try pretty hard to force me to need a new unit. Like turning Orc Boyz into 20mm miniatures.

Kirasu wrote:The only logical response to a totally unconfirmed rumor is to stage a riot and kill all GW employees!

Not all.. only the slowed monkeys that keep bending us over... we can keep the model designers imo. Lets see.... the bigwigs, the lawyers and jevis. Anything else i missed out on?

If I want to get rid of something, even at low profit, I'll tell the customer anything

Then you're a douchebag.

If you desperately need to get rid of product then just mark it down or something, sell it at a discount. Telling lies just makes you an ass.



But hey, I'm no salesman.

Kilkrazy wrote:This rumour is based on a single report from an independent store.

If it comes true, just don't buy any GW Stuff.
They are not the only company on Earth which makes wargame figures and rules.

OT but I gotta say I love the pimp hat.

Sidstyler wrote:If you desperately need to get rid of product then just mark it down or something, sell it at a discount. Telling lies just makes you an ass.

Agreed. I ran a shop for 5 years, and managed to keep it running quite healthily without lying to my customers. In fact, I got quite a lot of repeat business out of my honesty.

Anyway -- let's hope it is just random rumour. I'm totally stoked about the Tyranid codex, and planning on giving GW lots of cash this year so I can make a lovely Tyranid army. I really don't want them to make me unenthusiastic again with a price rise.

If it comes true, just don't buy any GW Stuff.

Price hikes certainly do have an effect on volume of sales and likely more on some items than others. Though it's clearly not likely to happen all at once or en masse if they lose some customers to competing game companies each time there's a substantial hike then over time there is certainly an impact on GW's overall well being. Customers who leave often take others with them to other games and of course they are no longer recruiting new customers for GW as active customers tend to do.

Ian Sturrock wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:If you desperately need to get rid of product then just mark it down or something, sell it at a discount. Telling lies just makes you an ass.

Agreed. I ran a shop for 5 years, and managed to keep it running quite healthily without lying to my customers. In fact, I got quite a lot of repeat business out of my honesty.

Exactly. There's no reason to lie to anyone. Take GW glue for example... if someone walks in and wants to buy some, I'll take their $8, but if they ask me about it, I'll tell them to go to Wal-Mart like I do. I've had people thank me and go buy another box of minis before, losing me $8 but gaining me $35.

Anyway, back on topic: I run a hobby store here in Oregon, and I tend to chat a lot with our GW rep, and he hasn't mentioned anything about any price increases. Anyway, even with a price increase, overall this is a very inexpensive hobby. A few hundred bucks will get you a full army, and if your FLGS is anything like my store, you can use their glue, tools and paint to put it all together, all while getting help from more experienced players/modelers.

Compare that to Magic: The Gathering. Even if you buy, lets say a box of every new set, that's still somewhere around $100 every few months. Not to mention you WILL buy booster packs (you will!), you'll enter FNM tourneys ($4-$8 a week, easy), booster drafts ($12-15) and much more. And with 2 sets rotating out every year now, You're looking at upwards of $800- $1000 a year just to keep up.

Warhammer, if you can find a good 3000 or so points that you can interchange for some 2000-point lists you like, is very, very cheap.

Of course, if you're like me and feel the need to buy every model that you see, yes, it gets expensive. (Ordering what I want at cost offsets that a bit, but really...it just means I get 45% more stuff, not that I spend 45% less money >< But if you have a bit of self control, it's easy to keep it a relatively inexpensive hobby, even if they raised prices by like 50%.

The GW bashing amuses the hell out of me, though. Don't let logic stop you!

If you are middle of the road income, it is a cheap hobby. For many people this simply does not hold true though. If saving money is the reason that you are going with wargaming, your going to need substantial amounts of disposable income from the get-go.

I still don't understand how having 'hobby' attached to an idea, actually connects any set of activities together. You spend money on both... and... that is about the extent of the similarities; oh, you also set aside time for both, just like you do for work.

If the fact that models have increased drastically in price, beyond any reasonable expectations, doesn't bother you; then neither should the price of gas, or milk, or any other 'cheap' goods. Increasing prices by 10 percent, multiple times over, twice in a year, is ridiculous. All I will say is that this price hike being real, would not surprise me at all.

You make these armies happen, and only after you make them happen do they become anything more than a piece of plastic, that stands at a mighty 2-6 inches tall. You can try and spin false perceptions around a very simply concept, but that does not change plastic into metal. Look at the models, they are good quality; and in no way does that change the fact that you assemble, paint, and in many other ways create the value of your army.

YOU CREATE THE VALUE.

The higher GW's prices go, the less stuff I buy, period. I will always make the usual purchases to have something to work on but as the prices go up my interest in APOCALYPSE types of purchases goes down sharply.

I think a raise in prices would be ill advised; however, I'll wait until if/when it happens to make any decisions as to planning my future purchases.

Marneus Smurfgar wrote:[
Compare that to Magic: The Gathering. Even if you buy, lets say a box of every new set, that's still somewhere around $100 every few months. Not to mention you WILL buy booster packs (you will!), you'll enter FNM tourneys ($4-$8 a week, easy), booster drafts ($12-15) and much more. And with 2 sets rotating out every year now, You're looking at upwards of $800- $1000 a year just to keep up.

The GW bashing amuses the hell out of me, though. Don't let logic stop you!

Slightly off topic but..

I think your overestimating the amount people spend on MTG. I don't personally know many people who buy a box every set. Most stick to buying singles online and only buy boosters for draft. (which is by far Wizards biggest money maker in MTG) If your playing tabletop magic at home, its even cheaper. Most decks shouldn't run you more than $20-30 dollars. (yes, I know tournament mana bases alone will often cost you $200)

Oh and they actually have a constantly updated ruleset with comprehensive FAQ and an easy to use FAQ that gets you an answer quickly and painlessly. All without raising the prices 3 times in 2 years.

/fanboyism off

With that off my chest, this is an insanely expensive hobby and their is no way 4 pieces of thin plastic should cost $35. The idea of another price increase (after the 3 they have had in the past 2 years) is laughable. Its price gouging, plain and simple. It works because the market is too small for any government to really take notice. And given the amount of crap that GW has given its customers (or as people mistakenly like to see themselves as 'fanbase') it blows my mind that people continue to buy stuff from them. (and no, I haven't bought anything from them in years. 2000 points and the 4th rulebook is all I will ever need)

The prices certainly aren't relative to production cost. Take Empire State Troops and Empire Greatswords: Same quantity of plastic, yet the Greatswords cost over twice as much.

Don't get me wrong.... I love 40k. I love the entire hobby, but if things get much more expensive I'll hold down what I have until GW wises up.

IntoTheRain wrote:

Slightly off topic but..

I think your overestimating the amount people spend on MTG. I don't personally know many people who buy a box every set. Most stick to buying singles online and only buy boosters for draft. (which is by far Wizards biggest money maker in MTG) If your playing tabletop magic at home, its even cheaper. Most decks shouldn't run you more than $20-30 dollars. (yes, I know tournament mana bases alone will often cost you $200)

Oh and they actually have a constantly updated ruleset with comprehensive FAQ and an easy to use FAQ that gets you an answer quickly and painlessly. All without raising the prices 3 times in 2 years.

/fanboyism off

I think you're drastically underestimating the amount of tournament players in comparison to casual "living room" MTG players. Locally, I know that MTG far outsells GW at the local stores that carry and support both. I imagine my area is not uncommon. I got out of tournament magic because of the cost involved. GW is cheaper, even when I switch armies at the beginning of every year.

mikhaila wrote:If no one else has heard anything about a price increase, other than possibly VAT related, I'm thinking this is bogus.

The information comes from someone dumping GW stuff at 40% off. He obviously is getting out of selling GW. Why dump something that will soon cost him more to re-order? And I'm not sure what UK discount is to retailers, but it sounds like he is either getting back his wholesale cost, or losing money at 40% off.

I'd easily bet money on this that someone is just using the "Quick! Buy more now before the Price goes up!" strategy.

The 40% off was just in the week/days before Christmas, and he is not getting out of selling GW.

If the store still has the sale a week from now I will start to get suspicious, but I doubt he would lie to regular customers like that.

Also, with this kind of price reduction no further shenanigans are needed to make sales. People were almost literally coming out of the woodwork to buy stuff. While it is not very profitable to have 40% off new product like the Skaven boxes, a lot of other blisters and boxes that had been unsold for years were gone now, so they did shake up their stock quite a bit (which supposedly was the whole point to it).

What is possible though, is that he was misinformed about the price raise by some non-GW source, or he heard about the UK VAT thing and confused it with that. I was surprised to not have read about it here since news usually hits the internet shortly after it breaks anywhere around the world, so that is why I made this thread.

Let us hope it is not true, obviously.

Off topic a bit, but that type of sale is poor business. Especially at Christmas. It means the items you would have effortlessly sold at full price, now go out the door at your wholesale cost. You might get your money back on some older stuff, but by far the largest percentage of product will be things you must then re-order. Good stuff sells, unpopular stuff doesn't. At 40% off, it's the same. A store sells more unpopular models, but also clears the shelves of the good stuff. Then he re-orders, having missed the opportunity to make a profit at Christmas? It might look like an increase in short term cash flow, but it kills profits, and cashflow gets killed when you have to re-order.

The only way I've seen it make sense is when a store has years and years of over ordering errors, and it's resulted in thousands of dollars of slow selling models. The losses were taken over the years, so selling off the stock actually helps the store. And I'd still do that in Jan/Feb, and not at Christmas. (Hmm, actually I do exactly that, every Feb 14th to 20th, mark it on your calendars. )

deitpike wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

karimabuseer wrote:because as far as I'm aware of, they decided to let all of their customers benefit from the reduced VAT, even those not in the UK.

Can you confirm that? because i cant remember any time that GW reduced anything.

By the Canadian flag next to your name, I'm guessing you are in Canada.
You should remember October 2008 when Canada had an across the board price reduction.
Easy to remember what you don't like, and overlook a 10-20% price drop on everything in the shop.

My laptop says I'm in the Uk. My computer says I'm in the United States. Yours says I'm in Canada.
I come from the UK

my reply was to Lunahound
neither here nor there at this point

mikhaila wrote:Off topic a bit, but that type of sale is poor business. Especially at Christmas. It means the items you would have effortlessly sold at full price, now go out the door at your wholesale cost. You might get your money back on some older stuff, but by far the largest percentage of product will be things you must then re-order. Good stuff sells, unpopular stuff doesn't. At 40% off, it's the same. A store sells more unpopular models, but also clears the shelves of the good stuff. Then he re-orders, having missed the opportunity to make a profit at Christmas? It might look like an increase in short term cash flow, but it kills profits, and cashflow gets killed when you have to re-order.

The only way I've seen it make sense is when a store has years and years of over ordering errors, and it's resulted in thousands of dollars of slow selling models. The losses were taken over the years, so selling off the stock actually helps the store. And I'd still do that in Jan/Feb, and not at Christmas. (Hmm, actually I do exactly that, every Feb 14th to 20th, mark it on your calendars. )

Yes, it definitely does not seem like the smartest way to do business. It would be better to pick out the items that have been gathering dust for a long time and only discount those instead of everything.

I was happy to get all the stuff at -40% though, so I do not really care

TBD wrote:

mikhaila wrote:Off topic a bit, but that type of sale is poor business. Especially at Christmas. It means the items you would have effortlessly sold at full price, now go out the door at your wholesale cost. You might get your money back on some older stuff, but by far the largest percentage of product will be things you must then re-order. Good stuff sells, unpopular stuff doesn't. At 40% off, it's the same. A store sells more unpopular models, but also clears the shelves of the good stuff. Then he re-orders, having missed the opportunity to make a profit at Christmas? It might look like an increase in short term cash flow, but it kills profits, and cashflow gets killed when you have to re-order.

The only way I've seen it make sense is when a store has years and years of over ordering errors, and it's resulted in thousands of dollars of slow selling models. The losses were taken over the years, so selling off the stock actually helps the store. And I'd still do that in Jan/Feb, and not at Christmas. (Hmm, actually I do exactly that, every Feb 14th to 20th, mark it on your calendars. )

Yes, it definitely does not seem like the smartest way to do business. It would be better to pick out the items that have been gathering dust for a long time and only discount those instead of everything.

I was happy to get all the stuff at -40% though, so I do not really care

Certainly wouldn't fault anyone for taking advantage of a sale like that.)

Tacobake wrote:The higher GW's prices go, the less stuff I buy, period. I will always make the usual purchases to have something to work on but as the prices go up my interest in APOCALYPSE types of purchases goes down sharply.

This is why I almost never buy nothing full price from GW now, I certainly don't buy things in their own shops, only the very occasional purchase from independents. The amount I buy has decreased under their continual price increases to virtually nothing. I get some things 2nd hand and prefer to collect individual miniatures from other companies. I'm now only a painter not a gamer, gaming requires collecting whole armies which is simply too expensive now, even individual units are exceedingly costly costing £20-30 for 5-10 miniatures. Plastic Terminators work out at £5 each, it's just not enough bang for your buck. Sheesh. GW have priced me out of their hobby, and that makes me sad because I love their fluff and like many of their miniatures, but it's not a choice I made.

Yeah GW has a box of 5 terminators at $50? for only 5 two inch tall plastics! I haven't played in a while but are they pricing by points value now?

Because people will buy it.

How many people? For how long? I really don't know.

The line of logic goes like this:
You want a unit? You freaking buy it. Very simple stuff. GW expects people to stay interested because they have money to dispose of. If you are on a limited budget, you are simply not their preferred customer; i.e. they give two gaks about you. What I think GW fails to realize (on so many levels it is astounding) is that their market is not composed of magical money faeries that like to burn money. Comparing apples to oranges, does not change the fact that GW specializes in plastics, and does a poor job of maintaining a fair price scheme.

I am sure that everyone here understands that the main reason that any good fluctuates in price, is because companies think that they can just get away with it. If you 'need' a squad of terminators, and GW has set up a web forcing you to buy them, most will just buy the toys. Fair pricing has nothing to do with how GW runs their business; they want you to spend as much as possible, as often as possible, without caring about your investment at all.

You buy plastic from GW, plastic miniatures that represent (within themselves) around 20% of the actual price that you paid. 50% (or so) goes to external expenses, and the rest goes into maintaining GW's legal team/ marketing hammer. You pay GW to push you around, and if not you, someone else that contributes much more to the actual community as a whole.

I was priced out of the hobby a while ago. My spending has slowed to a trickle. Now they are just getting fething ridiculous with the cost of small sheets of pressed plastic though. They're going to run themselves out of business once they pass their ceiling.

Once again I am forced to belive that the games workshop is in some financial difficulties...

jamunition wrote:Once again I am forced to belive that the games workshop is in some financial difficulties...

They probably ran out of new customers that were buying AOBR and space marines.
i was wondering how many MEQ armies would be bought by new players before they all get tired of seeing marines...

This is rumour control, here are the facts.

There has been no confirmation by GW (so far) that the price is going up. But in all likelihood the return of VAT to it's usual level will be used as an excuse to hike the price yet again.

We have seen 2 price rises in the last year.

We have seen written evidence from GW's own end of year report to shareholders that the executive believes the prices of the plastics can be increased to the same level as the price of the metals.

The price of the metals was greatly increased during the so called 'tin crisis' with a message that when that dark time was over, the price would return to normal, the 'tin crisis' lasted all of 3 months, in May 08 then decreasing in July 08 - no decrease in the price of the metal minis occurred. Now the plastics will be brought to the same level due to the 'price elasticity' that GW customers are 'willing to tolerate' in the opinion of Mr Tom Kirby.

A box of Warlord Games 30 celtic warriors (28mm multipart plastic unit) costs £17. That's .57p per model.
A box of Games Workshop 10 empire greatswords (28mm multipart unit) costs £25. That's £2.50 per model.
The Games Workshop miniature is approx 3.5 times the price of the Warlord Games miniature. Why? It's certain that they do maintain shops on the highstreet, but then their sales volume is going to be considerably greater and thus much higher profits to maintain said stores, so why the actual difference?

Opinion:

I put it to you simply that Games Workshop will charge the absolute maximum it thinks it can get away with, balancing the loss of existing players and putting off potential new gamers against the number of new players that will tolerate the increase. Specifically the younger players who do not earn their own money and therefore do not equate the value of the models against the price paid.

So, given these facts, I chose to believe that GW were being unnecessarily ruthless, cynical and uncaring about their customer base. I chose to continue buying at a reduced rate because I just could not equate the miniatures to the prices. Now, with GW's dreadfully executed C&D carpet-purges and attacks on it's own fansites, I removed my custom entirely. If you've read any of the above and are also angered by the grabbing and unprincipled actions of this company, I would urge you to do likewise and simply stop giving them your money. Exercise your consumer rights, veto the company.

As much as people like to complain, lets face it, most of you will continue to buy GW stuff. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see them put in their place for all the things they do, but until they really get slammed in their profit margins, that is really unlikely to happen. It has been going on for over two decades and it won't change anytime soon I'm afraid.

I think what has changed is the quality & cost of the alternatives as compared to GW.

I've been looking at putting together a squad of Rough Riders. Probably only use them for friendly games, anyway, and I don't play in GW stores, so they don't need to be GW figs. I can pay either £6.85 x 5 = £34.25 for a squad of 5 from GW. Or I can spend £5 on 15 plastic Italeri cavalry figures, and £3-4 on a new set of heads for them (from Pig Iron, or West Wind, or Ramshackle), & scratchbuild explosive tips on their lances. That's 3 squads of Riders for around 1/4 the cost of 1 squad from GW. Italeri are regarded as good quality sculpts -- not quite up there with GW, but not far off, at 1/12 the cost INCLUDING new gas-mask heads.

Or the high-end: £15 on 14 cavalry minis from the *Perry Brothers*, who are GW sculptors themselves, and £3-4 for new heads. That's 2 x 7-man Rough Rider squads for around half the price of 1 5-man squad from GW. GW just haven't given me any incentive at all to buy their stuff.

Admittedly I'll be buying a stack of the new Tyranids -- but I would be buying Rough Riders too, from GW, if they competed effectively with other companies. They don't, so they're getting less of my cash than they otherwise would do.

ShumaGorath wrote:I was priced out of the hobby a while ago. My spending has slowed to a trickle. Now they are just getting fething ridiculous with the cost of small sheets of pressed plastic though. They're going to run themselves out of business once they pass their ceiling.

The bulk of their customers must be children living off their parents and who don't understand the value of money, they just keep asking mummy and daddy for more. No wonder GW target children, many will outgrow the GW hobby because they have to start paying for it themselves.

When they first started doing their plastics in the regiment boxes you could get ten 3rd edition Marines for £10, or 20 skeletons, or 20 empire soldiers. Wow, it was £10, a nice amount of money to pay that didn't empty the contents of your wallet and gave you a complete unit for your army. Now you have to pay £20 for that privilage, I know the value of money has gone up but that was only 10 years ago, prices doubling in ten years is not inflation. There's nothing useful inbetween, sure you can spend £12 and get a box of 5 Marines, but that's only half a squad, you can't do much with that. There's no such thing as just getting a "little something" in GW anymore, you either spend a lot or leave empty handed. All the single figures cost a fortune, a heavy weapon Marine is £8, and all the characters more like £10. £10 for a single foot figure? Sigh. I like to browse and and have a selection of things to buy depending on what takes my fancy, the only small purchase you can make in GW is a pot of paint. And even they are overpriced. What puts me off about going in Games Workshop is that I don't tend to browse shops were the minimum useful purchase is around the £20 mark. And if I know I'm going to buy something, I go in, buy it and leave. Or more likely I buy it elsewhere. I don't generally "browse" looking to spend £20-30 on spec.

Special Characters, you say? Well, at least 2 or 3 of this lot would make pretty good Commisars...

http://www.artizandesigns.com/list.php?cat=121&sub=158&page=1

MeanGreenStompa wrote:A box of Warlord Games 30 celtic warriors (28mm multipart plastic unit) costs £17. That's .57p per model.
A box of Games Workshop 10 empire greatswords (28mm multipart unit) costs £25. That's £2.50 per model.
The Games Workshop miniature is approx 3.5 times the price of the Warlord Games miniature. Why? It's certain that they do maintain shops on the highstreet, but then their sales volume is going to be considerably greater and thus much higher profits to maintain said stores, so why the actual difference?

Opinion:
[snip]

So, given these facts, I chose to believe that GW were being unnecessarily ruthless, cynical and uncaring about their customer base. I chose to continue buying at a reduced rate because I just could not equate the miniatures to the prices. Now, with GW's dreadfully executed C&D carpet-purges and attacks on it's own fansites, I removed my custom entirely. If you've read any of the above and are also angered by the grabbing and unprincipled actions of this company, I would urge you to do likewise and simply stop giving them your money. Exercise your consumer rights, veto the company.

I'm going to agree and disagree with this.

The actual difference is that GW is making its models for its games, while Warlord is making models for "historical wargaming". GW has no competition for its games. Warlord has to compete with dozens of historical manufacturers who are all competing, which keeps prices lower. If Warlord charged GW prices, no one would buy their models, since I can get Celts from many manufacturers. Historical wargaming is not linked to any particular line of models, so you can use whatever you want at home, in stores, and at Tournaments. With GW, usually its only at home and the flgs where you can proxy. At GW stores and their GTs, you usually can only use GW models.

You are basically comparing apples (GW Games) to oranges (historicals).

Now, this is not to defend GW's practices, which have caused me to stop buying GW models for the most part. But I don't think its a ruthless and cynical company (they are uncaring though ), any more than model train companies are ($200-$300 for a single engine), or golf club manufacturers ($300 for a single driver). But even for the latter, there is competition and I can get comparable product for less.

What really did it for me was the fact that these other manufacturers were able to produce quality models, in plastic, with 3 times the number of models as GW kits, for 1/3 less. Perry, Victrix, Warlord, etc. Now, quality wise in my opinion, Perry and Victrix are pretty high, the rest are catching up. But it showed me that for small outfits to begin to produce in plastic, at low rates, meant GW was overcharging by a long shot for its plastics. Which, of course, goes to cover their enormous overhead with a worldwide operation, and hundreds of brick and mortar stores.

So, cost is slowly pushing this veteran to other games, mostly historicals for the above reasons.

So, given these facts, I chose to believe that GW were being unnecessarily ruthless, cynical and uncaring about their customer base. I chose to continue buying at a reduced rate because I just could not equate the miniatures to the prices. Now, with GW's dreadfully executed C&D carpet-purges and attacks on it's own fansites, I removed my custom entirely. If you've read any of the above and are also angered by the grabbing and unprincipled actions of this company, I would urge you to do likewise and simply stop giving them your money. Exercise your consumer rights, veto the company.

I didn't really like blood bowl. Your call to action remains largely ineffectual sir.

The bulk of their customers must be children living off their parents and who don't understand the value of money, they just keep asking mummy and daddy for more. No wonder GW target children, many will outgrow the GW hobby because they have to start paying for it themselves.

I never would have started the hobby at it's current prices. I didn't come from a wealthy family. Magic the gathering was a far cheaper alternative (and indeed I dropped 40k and played that for years).

Howard A Treesong wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I was priced out of the hobby a while ago. My spending has slowed to a trickle. Now they are just getting fething ridiculous with the cost of small sheets of pressed plastic though. They're going to run themselves out of business once they pass their ceiling.

The bulk of their customers must be children living off their parents and who don't understand the value of money, they just keep asking mummy and daddy for more. No wonder GW target children, many will outgrow the GW hobby because they have to start paying for it themselves.

You'd be genuinely surprised. I know which side my Store's bread is buttered, and it's not the kids....

ShumaGorath wrote:
I never would have started the hobby at it's current prices. I didn't come from a wealthy family. Magic the gathering was a far cheaper alternative (and indeed I dropped 40k and played that for years).

I have done the same thing myself. I balked at the prices then when a box of 16 Eldar Guardians was $25 and a Vyper was $20. If prices were then as they are now I would have laughed in the face of anyone trying to get me to play. This very thing happens whenever I see someone try to convince another to get into the game.

I see the complainers of high GW prices being the same ones who will complain about their favorite bar raising the price of their favorite ale or stout by 10% every 6 months but every Friday and Saturday they are going out with friends and buying 6 or more steins/mugs/pitchers/whatevers anyway.

I understand the value of money but it doesn't prevent me from buying minis for the game I love. My bar charges ridiculous money for drinks but I still go out on occasion and knock back a few.

If you value something highly enough you'll buy it. If you don't find the value of GW stuff to be worth the money than you won't but as long as SOMEBODY finds the value of GW miniatures to be worth the expense than GW will keep raising prices. The local bars around here charge $4 for a shot of Jagermeister (sp?) which is about .50 cents worth of alcohol. It's value is not worth $4 IMO but on occasion I'll knock back 2 or 3 because the ability to hang out with friends and have a good time overrides any monetary value that can be put on that booze (unless the bars start charging $20/shot than I'd stop buying of course).

40K lets me get together with friends and game. The armies I play mostly don't have models that look as good or that I've even see anything close for (Tyranids and Daemons) or cost just as much as GW. The fact I might pay $600 for a 2500pt army from GW (and most my purchases come from The Warstore) is overridden by the fact that I'm having fun every weekend doing something that gets me away from the stress of life and work.

I don't regret spending enough money on paintball over the course of 10 years to have bought a brand new car as the time I was able to have with friends far outweighs that of any monetary price (its really easy to spend $200-300 per month on paintball).

So I guess if you don't find the value of GW to be worth it don't spend; those of us that find the value still worth the cost will continue to buy. I have found no good alternatives for GW minis that I like the look of for the armies I play so I have 2 choices, pay the price or quit and right now the latter option isn't even an option.

I see the complainers of high GW prices being the same ones who will complain about their favorite bar raising the price of their favorite ale or stout by 10% every 6 months but every Friday and Saturday they are going out with friends and buying 6 or more steins/mugs/pitchers/whatevers anyway.

The attack bike I bought last week was the first thing I had purchased in over a year.

If you value something highly enough you'll buy it.

Thats fundamental, the question is when alternative sources become preferable (most of my space marine army came from three black reach boxes) or when customers stop buying entirely.

If you don't find the value of GW stuff to be worth the money than you won't but as long as SOMEBODY finds the value of GW miniatures to be worth the expense than GW will keep raising prices.

Thats not a particularly viable strategy and runs counter to the concept of supply demand. They have a significant supply, and they continued to raise prices through falling demand. Now that demand has risen again they are continuing to raise prices. There is a ceiling, and when reached they will begin to vent customers in a way that is no longer profitable.

40K lets me get together with friends and game.

So does a Wii. It requires less money, less involvement, and less effort. It can also tell you the weather. There are plenty of alternatives, a luxury items success is intrinsically tied to its dollar value.

So I guess if you don't find the value of GW to be worth it don't spend; those of us that find the value still worth the cost will continue to buy.

Telling people to just live with it doesn't particularly gel with the idea that those same people are being priced out of a passtime that they enjoy for spurious economic reasons. People tend to react with consternation and anger when something out of their control is changed in a way that they do not appreciate.

There are always ways to afford to buy stuff Shuma. Everyone has their own limits on when that point is reached.

I agree it may not be the best thing to do to raise prices 2-3 times a year but if it gets beyond your budget you have a choice. GW is not holding a gun to your head and making you buy their stuff, you said it as much yourself that there are alternatives.

WM is cheaper to get into but my group is not willing to invest in another system. Maybe if I personally expend money to buy a few WM factions of like 500 points they'd give it a try but if they don't like the game I've wasted money on something that I'll never play.

Again, there are ways to afford something if you want it. WDP is not losing players that buy their Angel paintball guns (and those are $1,000 guns easily unless you are a dealer or know a dealer who will give you an awesome discount) because of cheaper alternatives. Sure there are alternatives to an Angel that are close to being as good but WDP still has enough die-hard Angel buyers that they don't care if their closest competitor has a similar gun for $300 less as they know people will still buy their guns.

I can tell you my spending has slowed down quite a bit (and after playing paintball it's not due to GW prices) due to having less disposable income than I did 3 years ago. If I had the same disposable income I'd still be buying as much as I did. It would get me less stuff but I'd still be spending in the neighborhood of $100+ per month if I could afford it.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Telling people to just live with it doesn't particularly gel with the idea that those same people are being priced out of a passtime that they enjoy for spurious economic reasons. People tend to react with consternation and anger when something out of their control is changed in a way that they do not appreciate.

And that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

See, I might rail about GW for it's practises on pricing and attitude to fanbase, but I'm on dakka because I freaking love orks smoking cigars and using flamers on hapless tyranids, I am fascinated by the mutations rewarded on a fallen Brettonian knight who sells his soul in service to Tzeentch, or looking over the various province and city regimental colours for the armies of the Empire or planning a lost and damned renegade Imperial Guard army.

When I'm arguing with Grotsnik or anyone else who's strongly defending GW, I am arguing with another gamer. I am reacting with consternation and anger because I am now looking at the miniatures and saying 'Feth, that's so cool, but the company that makes it keeps acting like a jackass and then demanding a small fortune for it when I can see a product made with exactly the same technology being made for a fraction of the cost...'

We rail against the way we see GW behaving because we enjoy the hobby, the game with our mates, and we'd like to play it. The 'well if you don't like the price or the attitude, ship out' answer does not wash, I game with my mates, I will not be denied that by the selfish attitude of the company, we will find ways around it.

"Well go play another game then!" Sure, why not, after all I'm only 33 and have only invested time and passion to this game since I was 11... My friend with an army of ultramarines stretching across an entire wall will no doubt leap for joy at the prospect of never using those minis again and joining me starting up another game.

I have invested in this game for a considerable time, if the company that produces it acts in a way I don't like, I fethingwell have the right to growl about it and you have an equal right to put me on ignore.

Personal freedoms are there to be employed.

I talked about this before, but it always seems to come up.

What if GW moved to the magic the gathering model? THat is, every new edition your cards are obsolete and you need to buy new ones. Maybe then, they could lower prices.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of sales come from new players, not veterans, so GW has responded as such.
That's largely because the majority of vets don't buy that much more once they have an army or two. Yes, there are exceptions, I know, but it's just the way the bean counters see things.

For people saying that the prices drive new players away, well, honestly GW isn't very interested in new players that don't spend. Your average beginner spends ~$500 when he starts the hobby buying all his stuff, and GW doesn't see catering to the one box a month customer as viable.

As a thought, if you already have GW stuff and all prices were 50% off, would you buy double what you're currently buying? What about next year? The year after?

If GW lowered the prices on terminator boxes 50%, they would get more sales...for a month. Then they would go back to being about the same because the market is glutted. Because stuff doesn't become obsolete the market always eventually becomes glutted. Hence to them it makes more sense to start with a higher price, sell slower, but in the long run make more money.

If you're gonna argue it, YOU need to convince GW that lowering prices is the right thing. THat lowering prices actually would generate more revenue. Any other talk doesn't accomplish very much because it's viewed from an individual perspective. Unless you can effectively show GW that doing the reverse would make them more money.

As an aside, GW hires finance people that have nothing to do with the hobby. They don't play the game, they don't work in the store, they don't know anythng about it. All they see is numbers, numbers, numbers...that's why some of the decisions are head scratching. Argue from their perspective, not a gamer one.

I like the way people say "If you like it enough, you will buy it"

TBH, i dont agree with this.
I wanted 2 units of 5 bloodcrushers.
But now they are hitting the £18 mark each, i dont see why i should waste the money.
Also, to stop people making them cheaper, the jugger characters are now upped in price aswell.

Why dont they make juggers available in the mounts section to buy on thier own?

Actually, if you want to save money, I'm a big advocate of scratch built. Do it yourself, perfectly tourney legal and usually a fraction of the cost.

If you want to stick it to the man, that's how you do it. "I enjoy the hobby AND I don't buy from you! In your face GW!"

Lol, the things you learn as a GW employee.

Scratch-building entire armies is not cheap, nor is it easy. I would love to see more of them though.

On an aside, going into a GW store (which I simply won't do, I am not going to help them advertise) limits what you can do with your armies. GW wants you to buy their stuff, and if you are interested in competitions, scratch built armies can basically lock you out of doing so. GW does not want you to win tournaments with models that do not advertise their brand.

Wargaming does not = GW, besides the fact that many people like to pretend it does. The fact that both paintballing, and wargaming are hobbies to most, means absolutely nothing; there are literally no real similarities between the two. Nor is there any similarities between golfing and paintballing. They are all activities, and in no way do they actually line up to each other.

Nobody is saying they are Wrex but to some they are a hobby; to some it's all about competition.

GW games were not meant to be competitive to the level of tournaments. They are competitive in that you play to TRY to win but the tournament thing was not really huge until 3rd and beyond.

The point being made is that the fans of both will pay the prices to do both activities. GW might be expensive to some or most people but so is golf, so is paintball, so is scuba diving but for the people that enjoy those things it's not expensive as to be beyond monetary means to enjoy them.

I got out of paintball because I spent $300/month for something I did 8 days a month and if I wanted to do it again the following month it was another $300. $3600/year to do something that didn't really last (except gun which was good for 2-3 years as I didn't buy the newest Angel that came out every 12 months) whereas I can spend $3600 over the course of 12 months and with the minor expense of buying or replacing new units (most costing less than $100 to replace and being good until the next codex is released in 4 years) that $3600 will last me until my army gets squated or until I get tired of 40k (which is to say not going to happen in probably the next 10).

So while 40k and golf are not similar hobbies they are similar in that people with enough passion to do both will pay the price (and at least with wargaming you have alternatives to GW, not so much so with golf where you need certain clubs to play and can't really play in your back yard unless your back yard happens to be Pebble Beach golf course).

There is still no real comparison besides the fact that fans of both have no choice on many occasions, but to accept price gouging as a normal activity.

If you go by the time allotted to each, your spare time basically, then most hobbies actually work out to be very similar in price overall. If you spent 8 days a month paintballing, and built up most of your expenses through paintballs; whereas you spend 2-4 days per month if you were wargaming, the difference works out to be very small in terms of money spent/ day of use.

The main point is that the models in Warhammer (etc...) are made out of plastic and tin. It isn't very hard to understand how overpriced they actually are. You have as much of a right to support GW in this regard, as anyone else does to not support it. Though you don't really appear to be pushing that GW is 'customer friendly' company... which they are clearly not.

I don't want to pay GW to keep all of their stores open, making it easier for them to monopolize the market (which in all fairness, they pretty much created; NOT the hobby, just their niche mind you). I also don't care if it is GW to provide fairly priced models, at some point GW will have some serious competition on their hands from alternative companies. The business model is likely to be drastically different, but overall, that can only be a good thing.

I see quite a few people claiming New gamers spend the most money at GW.

Please define what you mean by new? I reckon the second you move onto a second army, be it for the same game, or one of the others, you are no longer 'new' to the Hobby.

GW Stores are indeed predominantly about recruiting new comers to the Hobby. This is how it grows, and one of the reasons GW are very much the dominant force in their market. Why is this seen as a bad thing?

I don't know if I'm being obtuse, but I really don't get those who somehow object to a company putting a great deal of effort into grabbing new customers? I know many people wish GW would do 'more' for Veterans, but at the same time, I read people claiming they don't like how GW try to control their hobby. Surely you cannot have it both ways. You are either grown up and independant as a gamer, or prefer your local store to cater to your needs.

The price is the price. If you don't want to pay the price, either go without, or try to find the product you are after at a discount. I do get genuinely puzzled by those who make a big song and dance about another price rise (which is still merely rumoured, and most likely refers to the British VAT going back up to 17.5% in January) who then say 'but then I've not bought anything GW for 18 months'. If you decided to no longer buy into the Hobby first hand, then what the hell does another rise matter to you, and why be so vocal?

Also, a lot of opinions again being passed off as fact here, like my previous post where I quoted someone claiming 'most GW customers are kids' which I'm afraid to say simply isn't true in my experience. You personally might notice lots of kids in your local GW or FLGS, but rather than being indicative for their standard customer set, is merely reflecting the Stores dual role as a sort of Youth Club for it's gamers. Kids go there after school, kids spend the weekend there, kids spend their school holidays there. The adults however, tend to play at home, and will literally pop in to buy what they need, have a quick chat with the staff, and then head home to build their purchases.

And why do people say they aren't 'customer friendly'. Every customer is offered Hobby support, whether help with the basic skill set (assembling models, painting, writing an army list etc) to the very highest level the staff member present is capable of (Sculpting with Greenstuff, NMM painting etc). And guess what? That. Is. Free. Not charged a single additional penny on your toys. Nor do the stores demand you buy something every so often to use their free (oh look, that word again) facilities. Do the rival companies pay people to help their customers? Not to my knowledge. So you have to pay for their rules, and the company is astute at protecting it's (valuable) IP and Copyrights? Which company worth it's salt doesn't, and why is it a problem when GW do so? People say they should go about it softer. Why? They are a global brand, and as mentioned above, the dominant force in their market. Believe it or not, a C&D Letter IS the soft approach for such a company. They tell you what it is they feel is crossing the line, and ask you to change things appropriately, or they will take action. This is IP. Defend it, or lose it. That's sadly the way the law works (unless I'm horribly misinformed, which I can never rule out). Is it about pushing fans out of the hobby? Nope. It's about covering their own arses. Take Talkbloodbowl (I think that was the one). They were asked to change their name, as GW own the name of Bloodbowl, and adjust their site in a few other ways. Not an entirely unreasonable activity, and it was the site owner who decided he couldn't be arsed, and just shut it down. Who is failing the Community there? The company who have to defend their IP, or the one just shutting it down, rather than put some extra work in?

Mad doc wrote:I don't know if I'm being obtuse, but I really don't get those who somehow object to a company putting a great deal of effort into grabbing new customers? I know many people wish GW would do 'more' for Veterans, but at the same time, I read people claiming they don't like how GW try to control their hobby. Surely you cannot have it both ways.

What I am hearing is that veteran gamers want to be considered in the decision made by GW. This has nothing to do with control, it has to do with customer satisfaction. If there are as many unsatisfied vets as there appears to be; GW has simply done something wrong, doesn't care, or has a different demographic they are catering to. Asking for improvement does assume that GW will ignore the things that were specifically asked for all together. To me, it just seems like people that ask for these changes in large numbers, and consistently, are not only ignored, but ignored along with the rest of the community.

GW does not control the hobby, they control their business.

You are either grown up and independant as a gamer, or prefer your local store to cater to your needs.

I don't understand this... Your local store sells the goods that you need to play the game. Are you talking about scratch building being the only alternative? Could you clarify a bit?

And why do people say they aren't 'customer friendly'. Every customer is offered Hobby support, whether help with the basic skill set (assembling models, painting, writing an army list etc) to the very highest level the staff member present is capable of (Sculpting with Greenstuff, NMM painting etc). And guess what? That. Is. Free. Not charged a single additional penny on your toys. Nor do the stores demand you buy something every so often to use their free (oh look, that word again) facilities

So the redshirt will take time out of selling me 6 boxes of useless nonsense, that I was not asking for at all, to instruct me on how to paint for all of five minutes? What? My god, I feel so catered to... Go to ANY hobby shop, and ask for the same exact advice... 9/10 times you can get better information, not hinged on selling you more products after that. This may be part of the reason that a lot of FLGS's don't do so well financially over a long period, even though overall, their products may be slightly more expensive because they do not have a corporate umbrella protecting them from the economic reality they face.

If there are as many unsatisfied vets as there appears to be; GW has simply done something wrong, doesn't care, or has a different demographic they are catering to.

Or game veterans on internet chat boards are just whiny as hell.

Clarification incoming sir!

By that, I meant those who feel GW should do more events etc for Veterans. And yet, being a Hobby, how long should someone be dependant upon the Company to give them things to do? Lots of things are put on for newer gamers, because they are less established. A Veteran likely knows quite a few other gamers, and may even belong to a private club. Newer gamers however, are still settling into the community, and the GW store helps them in with events in store. Which of course all are welcome to attend, but tend to be populated mainly by the aforementioned newer gamers.

When it comes to events and the like, I really think people may be getting a bit overzealous. Being dependent on GW to provide you with gaming space that exceeds what you have now, is just asking for an awful lot for absolutely nothing. Scratch that, you provide the spectacle of your army, or the potential for pictures for advertising, etc...

Providing gaming space, is one thing that would be commendable, if it weren't for the fact that it is customary to do so. I don't game at the GW stores, because I have no interest in buying anything from that store specifically. I don't want to advertise the store, I don't want any part of their competitions, thus I do not go there at all. When I game at my FLGS, I will usually make a purchase of some kind throughout the day. It is not expected, but that is basically how the space can be provided in the first place.

The club thing does confuse me, I seem to read from the posts here that the US players don't run clubs like you find here in the UK but more commonly have all their games in stores.

When I'm moved over there, I'm gonna get me a big gaming table for the house and also look into setting up a club I think.

Seconded about the Clubs thing.

It often occurs to me that we experience almost two completely seperate Hobbies on different sides of the Atlantic. Certainly, it's been my perception that US Customers complain a lot more than European ones, but that could just be the sites I tend to use having a higher concentration of US posters, it's hard to say without going through the arseache of compiling a comparisson Might just be a cultural thing. Americans are often portrayed as being overall more competitive a culture than the UK, so if thats true and not just media hyperbole, it goes some way to explaining things.

I hope that GW does increase its prices. Its miniatures are the best on the market and currently GW is undercutting themselves by not properly pricing their awesome models.

By increasing the prices on everything, GW shows that they believe that their models are the best on the market (which they are) and they will make more money so they can make even better models.

In all, it's a win for GW.

I smell sarcasm.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:I seem to read from the posts here that the US players don't run clubs like you find here in the UK but more commonly have all their games in stores.

When I'm moved over there, I'm gonna get me a big gaming table for the house and also look into setting up a club I think.

As usual, Dakka isn't representative of gaming at large. There are a lot of at-home gamers, self included. I would characterize myself in a "social gaming group" rather than a "club".

____

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:It often occurs to me that we experience almost two completely seperate Hobbies on different sides of the Atlantic.

Certainly, it's been my perception that US Customers complain a lot more than European ones,

It occurs to me that Dakka more likely self-reports from two separate player types as stereotypical on each side of the pond.

Yes, we're a whiny lot.

I've done most of my gaming outside of stores. Never been in a club persay... maybe a beer club? Yeah, beer and WH40k, the best way to spend Saturday.

If I had space, all of it would be coated with game terrain and gaming tables. Alas, I don't, so I have to rely on stores and other peoples space. If I ever get into renting a warehouse, (be it for living, work, or both), there is bound to be a massive space set aside for lounging. Man... now I want to build something. :(

My next project is going to be using mainly Sapporo cans (which I have in abundance, and should probably start a brainstorming thread on) to make industrial bunkers, and buildings. Mmmm... Sapporo bunkers...

MeanGreenStompa wrote:The club thing does confuse me, I seem to read from the posts here that the US players don't run clubs like you find here in the UK but more commonly have all their games in stores.

When I'm moved over there, I'm gonna get me a big gaming table for the house and also look into setting up a club I think.

Like John said, there's kind of a divergence between the at-home gamers in the US and the in-store gamers.

A lot of us have FLGSes with some pretty nice table setups and offer them for free, provided we ask in advance for specific days. Not too hard to do in that case, especially when those same shops also rely on their customers to help build the tables in the first place.

But on the flipside, not all of us have the space to devote to a single room for gaming or have roommates, etc who we can't get to clear their lazy arses out before we have a gaming group over.

Wrexasaur wrote:If I ever get into renting a warehouse, (be it for living, work, or both), there is bound to be a massive space set aside for lounging.

If you rent or build yourself a man-cave, don't pretend it to be a store or anything else.

The man-cave is just a lounge. I won't be running any retail stores any time soon, probably the case with a landscape company as well, but it is much more probable.

Kinda like having a house on top of a store I guess, never been one to like commuting to work.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Clarification incoming sir!

By that, I meant those who feel GW should do more events etc for Veterans. And yet, being a Hobby, how long should someone be dependant upon the Company to give them things to do? Lots of things are put on for newer gamers, because they are less established. A Veteran likely knows quite a few other gamers, and may even belong to a private club. Newer gamers however, are still settling into the community, and the GW store helps them in with events in store. Which of course all are welcome to attend, but tend to be populated mainly by the aforementioned newer gamers.

How about GW help veterans by not continually rendering miniatures obsolete? GW behave like all their customers have such a short memory that they can afford to overhaul the rules every couple of years. There are loads of models and even whole armies rendered useless. You're left to leave them collect dust or you have to take a knife to the to correct them. Kids that come and go in the hobby won't notice this, but anyone who has been in it for a while will realise the only real solution is to draw a line in the sand and refuse to buy newer rulesets. This makes it somewhat hard to find new people to play against but the only other thing is to constantly keep buying the continual re-releases of the games as GW reinvents the wheel time and again.

And another thing, I would like to exercise my right to take my custom elsewhere, but I feel like GW's presence gets everywhere. Their aggressively posessive attitude towards IP makes them think they own a lot more than they realistically do, so I find that the alternate companies I like to use like Hasslefree and Ultraforge and apparently others have received C&Ds, some even remove figures from the ranges. So even if I refuse to buy GW and go in their shops, they still piss on my patch by hassling those other companies I would like to buy miniatures from. By rights, even people who have never ever bought GW have a right to be pissed off by them as of late. What do these people do? Are they supposed to just put up with it? Some people suggest that if you don't like the company's prices or tactics then you leave and go elsewhere, but GW look to interfere with and bully other companies in the wider hobby. And that hacks me off more than their price rises, if only it were as simply as merely not choosing to shop with them any longer.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Clarification incoming sir!

And yet, being a Hobby, how long should someone be dependant upon the Company to give them things to do? .

When are people actually going to get this.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Clarification incoming sir!

By that, I meant those who feel GW should do more events etc for Veterans. And yet, being a Hobby, how long should someone be dependant upon the Company to give them things to do? Lots of things are put on for newer gamers, because they are less established. A Veteran likely knows quite a few other gamers, and may even belong to a private club. Newer gamers however, are still settling into the community, and the GW store helps them in with events in store. Which of course all are welcome to attend, but tend to be populated mainly by the aforementioned newer gamers.

How about GW help veterans by not continually rendering miniatures obsolete? GW behave like all their customers have such a short memory that they can afford to overhaul the rules every couple of years. There are loads of models and even whole armies rendered useless. You're left to leave them collect dust or you have to take a knife to the to correct them. Kids that come and go in the hobby won't notice this, but anyone who has been in it for a while will realise the only real solution is to draw a line in the sand and refuse to buy newer rulesets. This makes it somewhat hard to find new people to play against but the only other thing is to constantly keep buying the continual re-releases of the games as GW reinvents the wheel time and again.

And another thing, I would like to exercise my right to take my custom elsewhere, but I feel like GW's presence gets everywhere. Their aggressively posessive attitude towards IP makes them think they own a lot more than they realistically do, so I find that the alternate companies I like to use like Hasslefree and Ultraforge and apparently others have received C&Ds, some even remove figures from the ranges. So even if I refuse to buy GW and go in their shops, they still piss on my patch by hassling those other companies I would like to buy miniatures from. By rights, even people who have never ever bought GW have a right to be pissed off by them as of late. What do these people do? Are they supposed to just put up with it? Some people suggest that if you don't like the company's prices or tactics then you leave and go elsewhere, but GW look to interfere with and bully other companies in the wider hobby. And that hacks me off more than their price rises, if only it were as simply as merely not choosing to shop with them any longer.

And the beancounters look at each other and smile. "The system works," they respond.

Let's say I invented an air conditioner that never broke down and never needed maintenance. At first, assuming the price was competitive, it would be the best selling air conditioner ever. Eventually though, everyone would have one. Because those things never broke down, people never needed to buy another one. If they somehow did because of an accident, they could find one cheap used or something since the conditioners last forever.
Not surprisingly, eventually my company would go out of business if that was the only thing I sold.

Everything you're saying they're doing on purpose. Your complaint is only validating what they are doing...If you want it to change that's the worst thing you could tell GW.

scuddman wrote:And the beancounters look at each other and smile. "The system works," they respond.

Let's say I invented an air conditioner that never broke down and never needed maintenance. At first, assuming the price was competitive, it would be the best selling air conditioner ever. Eventually though, everyone would have one. Because those things never broke down, people never needed to buy another one. If they somehow did because of an accident, they could find one cheap used or something since the conditioners last forever.
Not surprisingly, eventually my company would go out of business if that was the only thing I sold.

Everything you're saying they're doing on purpose. Your complaint is only validating what they are doing...If you want it to change that's the worst thing you could tell GW.

Your talking about planned obsolescence which is illegal in most countries; an example of this was the apple click wheel debacle and I believe the eventual lawsuit vs. apple originated in England.

An interesting read for you is Vance Packard's, The Waste Makers; where he states such corporate policies are, "the systematic attempt of business to make us wasteful, debt-ridden, permanently discontented individuals." One need only to read a great number of threads on this site to see the truth of that statement.

GW constantly grinding out new rules before actually creating completely new rules for each faction, making entire armies or units obsolete, monkeying around with price architecture, are all examples of such a corporate policy. What they are doing is attempting to create demand of certain products by forcing people to buy them to stay competitive in gameplay. It works and it is driving sales of their armies. Just look at all the fervor created by the release of each faction's new codex and the ensuing buy riot from gamers. Gosh, the Tyranid hooplah is almost mindblowing with people already frothing at the mouth to rush out and drop their hard earned money on the latest gadget or whatzit that GW is producing.

We, in the West, are conditioned to be consumers, unthinking buying machines, and that's what we do. Just look at the all the pushback that occurs when someone mentions "boycott"; almost like it's a dirty word. Take a deep breath and look back at even 40 years ago and the different mindset that most people had back then; there's no way a company like GW could get away with such a policy because people simply didn't have the disposable income to throw away when they barely had enough to buy a refrigerator or other needed home appliance.

No folks, it's already too late; there will be no death of GW because they already have you addicted and are the only "pusher" of your drug of choice; if any upstart comes along, they'll muscle them out of the way.

My two cents.

Another price hike means I will no longer be buying anymore GW armies...I have enough figures for a WHFB army and 40K army...enough is enough IMO.

Warlord Imp wrote:Another price hike means I will no longer be buying anymore GW armies...I have enough figures for a WHFB army and 40K army...enough is enough IMO.

Unverified rumor. At the very least we've identified the salesman as a douche.

I hope that all these players who keep complaining about GW actually do stop buying and playing 40K/fantasy. Infact it would be even better if they stopped posting on the forums about GW related topics.

I actually cant understand why so many people who have supposedly left the hobby still complain about it on the interweb?

We appreciate the models. From a distance.

beef wrote:I hope that all these players who keep complaining about GW actually do stop buying and playing 40K/fantasy. Infact it would be even better if they stopped posting on the forums about GW related topics.

I actually cant understand why so many people who have supposedly left the hobby still complain about it on the interweb?

What the fething tosh does not liking the pricing, attitude and consumer relationship of the company have to do with playing the game?

Well MeanGreanStompa if you dislike a company so much due to their bad pricing and poor ruleset and bad attitude the most obvious thing would be not to buy from them.

But the Dirty Truth is no other games company comes close to GW for rules or models.
It why we Love it so much. Play the Game and complain less then.

beef wrote:
But the Dirty Truth is no other games company comes close to GW for rules or models.

I disagree. I paint their models because I like them, but I hardly play the game as I
dislike the rules. That's why I'm shifting budgets in 2010, or at least I'm going to
try to. The lure of Mumaks might prove too strong.

It's probably closer to the truth to say that no other company has as much market presence.

I'd agree with that.

crazy talk
90% of the posts are complaining about GW
if there wasn't so much "I hate the evil GW" bashing going on, the forum wouldn't have anywhere near the number of
posts!

=)

beef wrote:Infact it would be even better if they stopped posting on the forums about GW related topics.

Or you could simply stop reading the threads that contain such annoyances.

beef wrote:Well MeanGreanStompa if you dislike a company so much due to their bad pricing and poor ruleset and bad attitude the most obvious thing would be not to buy from them.

But the Dirty Truth is no other games company comes close to GW for rules or models.
It why we Love it so much. Play the Game and complain less then.

I'm...not...buying...from...them...

Gamezone miniatures gives GW very serious competition for fantasy miniature quality, in many cases it beats GW hands down and steals it's lunch money. Their metals are also cheaper than GWs.

Mate, don't tell me to complain less if something I've been collecting and playing for over 20 bloody years gets priced into the exorbitant for no good reason, or the company that creates it behaves like a rottweiler on crack to it's own fans and the wargaming community.

agnosto wrote:

beef wrote:Infact it would be even better if they stopped posting on the forums about GW related topics.

Or you could simply stop reading the threads that contain such annoyances.

I'm pretty sure there's no warning tab for threads saying "WARNING: This Thread Contains 90% Whining About GW."

Maybe we could get one so we can "stop reading the threads that contain such annoyances"?

But MGS is right. People are entitled to complain(or at least think they are). It'd be nice if they'd tone the complaining down a bit, but that's like asking a duck to stop quacking or a squid to stop squiddling.

beef wrote:But the Dirty Truth is no other games company comes close to GW for rules or models.

True. GW has some of the prettiest models around... and some of the worst rules.

Kanluwen wrote:
I'm pretty sure there's no warning tab for threads saying "WARNING: This Thread Contains 90% Whining About GW."

Maybe we could get one so we can "stop reading the threads that contain such annoyances"?

But MGS is right. People are entitled to complain(or at least think they are). It'd be nice if they'd tone the complaining down a bit, but that's like asking a duck to stop quacking or a squid to stop squiddling.

The "quit yer b*tchin" mentality is a two way street.

For the most part, a person can read a few postings on any thread and gather the direction the thread is taking and at that point they make a decision, whether they recognize it or not, to just say "huh" and move along or to comment.

You're right, though, that griping is part of the human condition; it's arguable that my wife griping about something broken will motivate me to get off my lazy tush and fix it, on a bigger scale that's how we control our various governments (take a long look at governments without free speech stomp down on anyone griping if you don't believe me) or even encourage changes in corporate policy...

Hope this is just rumour, but as I've not had a pay rise this year, at least I'm still in work unlike so many others, I'll stick to myself imposed monthly budget of £50 per month for toy soldiers, games etc.

Harms66 wrote:Hope this is just rumour, but as I've not had a pay rise this year, at least I'm still in work unlike so many others, I'll stick to myself imposed monthly budget of £50 per month for toy soldiers, games etc.

As many have noted, it's an unverified rumor.
I'm jealous of your budget. The mistress of the household has just informed me that my gaming budget has been slashed. :(

agnosto wrote:We, in the West, are conditioned to be consumers, unthinking buying machines, and that's what we do.

Feel free to speak for the rest of the sheeple. I'll continue to make purchases of my own volition.

bigchris1313 wrote:

agnosto wrote:We, in the West, are conditioned to be consumers, unthinking buying machines, and that's what we do.

Feel free to speak for the rest of the sheeple. I'll continue to make purchases of my own volition.

That's the danger with generalizations, people tend to take them too literally. The majority of people in the West, and increasingly in thwe East, are trained to be consumers. From early childhood, most of us are told by are parents to save our allowance (or in my case, my lawn mowing money) to buy what the TV, peers, and other sources tell us we must. In example, most of us were introduced to GW products or wargaming in general by a friend; we didn't just wake up one day and spontaneously decide to paint little army men.

I suppose my point is that we, all of us unless someone lives as a hermit on a mountaintop somewhere, are influenced in our purchases; whether or not we admit to it is a different story.

6 pages of arguments about GW pricing/customer service/rules because someone made a "I heard from a friend who works with someone who has a roommate that read the formations of the stars and it predicts a price increase in February" post. Its awesome.

Oddly enough it is mildly entertaining to me because business slows down this time of year for me, so it passes the time. Carry on

Why doesnt everyone here just stop complaining about GW price increases and just start compliaining about their employer not giving them a cost of living increase. Then you can bitch about something that really sucks..your job. Id bet 90% have jobs you hate or are students who feel this crunch and thats what burns. Your having to spend more of your hard earned dollars while your hated employer shares none. If your jobs paid more you wouldnt care as much now would you.

Their price increases over the life span of their products arent that bad when you account for the increases in availability, systems, quality, etc.

Dont complain about $2K break changes when you drive a Fararri.(yadda yadda I know GW isnt exotic like a Fararri thats FW but to save some loon effort Ill put this here) Or for giggles buy GW stock when they start paying dividends to subsidize your own hobby?

Begin Im an exception boo boo GW rants again. See you all at the register.

beef wrote:
But the Dirty Truth is no other games company comes close to GW for models.
It why we Love it so much.

I love Warhammer 40,000. It's probably one of my favorite science fiction universes, only tied with Star Wars and Star Trek.

But if GW keeps increasing their prices, then I'm afraid that I will not be able to continue playing.

I'm angry with GW because I want them to do well. Is that surprising? I want GW to live long and prosper, but their current business model is going to hurt them.

I hope it doesn't happen but at the same time they need to learn a lesson so that they can become a better company. And no, this isn't sarcasm.

-Vlad

Wow, I've never seen so much complaining outside of primary school dinners when brocolli is on the menu! As a casual expenditure (ie outside of rent/food/electricity) my GW toy soldiers is relatively cheap! I'd be about:
- £100 per month for a few rounds of golf on the local courses, just for playing, no accessories
- clothes/trainers anything from £30 to £100 per item!
- £700 for alloys for the car
- £50 - £100 on console games
- £100 per month in the pub!

I'm not saying that I would spend that every month, but it's disposable income and has to be budgeted as such, if I need a new pair of shoes one month I'll cut down on the toy soldiers, but likewise if I want some plasticy goodness I might curtail some other expenses. Yes, it might seem expensive but the value isn't just what you hold in your hand. It's in the whole world that surrounds it and without buying the models I couldn't enjoy painting them, I wouldn't know all the guys I game with and I might be sitting here bored senseless playing with a rubix cube or a YoYo!

My better half thinks its expensive, but has no emotional ties to our fluffy world. But then again, I'd swap her beloved Jimmy Choo handbag in a heartbeat for a plastic sprue..........

Brother Chaplain Ginn wrote:Why doesnt everyone here just stop complaining about GW price increases and just start compliaining about their employer not giving them a cost of living increase. Then you can bitch about something that really sucks..your job. Id bet 90% have jobs you hate or are students who feel this crunch and thats what burns. Your having to spend more of your hard earned dollars while your hated employer shares none. If your jobs paid more you wouldnt care as much now would you.

Their price increases over the life span of their products arent that bad when you account for the increases in availability, systems, quality, etc.

Dont complain about $2K break changes when you drive a Fararri.(yadda yadda I know GW isnt exotic like a Fararri thats FW but to save some loon effort Ill put this here) Or for giggles buy GW stock when they start paying dividends to subsidize your own hobby?

Begin Im an exception boo boo GW rants again. See you all at the register.

LOL. I can't complain about the no COLA thing because my employer hasn't given anyone a raise in 4 years. It takes a literal act of the state legislature to give us raises.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Johnynoi wrote:
My better half thinks its expensive, but has no emotional ties to our fluffy world. But then again, I'd swap her beloved Jimmy Choo handbag in a heartbeat for a plastic sprue..........

I'm with you there. My wife was saying something along the same lines until I reminded her that I spend more on her Coach bags than I spend on my little army men.

Brother Chaplain Ginn wrote:Dont complain about $2K break changes when you drive a Fararri.(yadda yadda I know GW isnt exotic like a Fararri thats FW but to save some loon effort Ill put this here).

Poor Enzo rolled over in his grave a couple of times when you typed this

My point is that 90% of the post on this forum seem to be about how badly we as the consumer are done by GW. Maybe they should change the name of this forum to 'I hate GW'
Or better still have a sub forum for just hating on GW then I would not have to have read 6 pages of the stuff. Yes you are free to complain, its your right but come onenough is enough. Get over it, complain about world hunger or the whales being killed illegaly or something of substance.

Its true I dont have to reply to the GW hate but come on not everybody feels that way, But from the forum you would thinks its the majority opinion Which it is not. Its just easier to complain about something. Defend GW and you are the Black sheap of the community or at best a Fanboy

Enzo has a lot to roll over about these days, keeps the worms off. He'd have to wonder about his company's place in the globat automobile market these days. Would he be a pioneer again and really lead his peers and go green? Pump gas has its limits afterall. What a world we are in.

Being a cultural Icon and the highpoint in an analogy, contained table top wargame forum while people are supposed to be working probably wouldnt register. LOL.

Oh and ref the cost of living raisies me, takes congress to give me a raise, but the FEDs have been taking care of us what with the two wars and all.

agnosto wrote:

beef wrote:Infact it would be even better if they stopped posting on the forums about GW related topics.

Or you could simply stop reading the threads that contain such annoyances.

But see if the GW apologists stopped reading such threads then what would they have to defend?

By apologists you of course mean those who are generally quite happy with their hobby, and don't feel the need to martyr themselves on the internets, and by defend, you of course mean suggest an alternate, less outright hostile attitude and perspective upon the GW Hobby yes?

Aren't most of us actually somewhere in the middle, rather than being either GW apologists or people who'd complain at whatever GW do? I think there's been some good discussion here, before people started complaining about the complainers.

Most people I know who do the hobby are somewhere in the middle, too -- love the game, love the fluff, love the minis, occasionally get annoyed at GW, occasionally buy minis from other companies and use them in GW games.

deitpike wrote:crazy talk
90% of the posts are complaining about GW
if there wasn't so much "I hate the evil GW" bashing going on, the forum wouldn't have anywhere near the number of
posts!

=)

That's just not true!

Anyway, man this thread's got legs!

Really annoying, long lasting ones, but still, wow?

So is this price rise on or off? I don't buy so I'm price elastic.

Off I'd assume, if you don't count the VAT going back up in 3 days.

The GW price "adjustment" happens every year in July, and they give retailers 3 months notice before hand.

Except for last year when the price of metal caught them by surprise and they raised prices on metal boxes in September. Even then they made sure to let retailers know as soon as they could.

I highly doubt there will be another emergency price rise this Winter. We need to save our bitching until this Summer, or we will wear ourselves out!

Well, I get a new Trade Order Form this week, that stretches out 3-6 months. I'll take a look at it when it comes in. But since my sales rep mentioned nothing about a price hike, I'd assume there's nothing changing. I'll get it on Thursday, see if anything changed.

oh goodness. Goldswords will be Platinumswords soon.

The GW price "adjustment" happens every year in July...

That used to be S.O.P. up until a couple years ago, but recent unstable international economies, currency exchange rates and raw materials prices influenced Games Workshop price rises in September 2008 and again around April 2009. Those are the most recent GW price rises and neither of them was in July of either year in which they occurred. They were also only about 7 months apart.

beef wrote:I actually cant understand why so many people who have supposedly left the hobby still complain about it on the interweb?

Nine years. I've been playing for nine years, since I was 10 years old (or almost half my life). As I watch other hobbies I could have become a part of (Videogames, sports) become cheaper and potentially more profitable (Look at videogame tournaments or sports scholarships), I watch my current hobby... grow more and more expensive while many of the converted models I made have been resigned to a permanent space on my shelf due to the very slim likelihood of GW returning their equipment combinations. Hell, consider that Orc & Goblin troll models have not changed in the last seventeen years. Now, also consider that the models have become $7 more expensive (or just under a 50% increase in their price) from their '04-'05 cost alone (I would offer their '92 price, but it appears the catalogue doesn't have prices listed). And they've been making changes like this across the board somewhat consistently in recent years.

When I started, I could buy a new army fresh off the presses at about 2.5-3K for the same cost (if not cheaper than) a new Videogame Console. Now? I might be able to squeeze out a min-model 2.5K list for the price of a new 360 ($300 USD), or could buy a used console and a handful of games for the same cost (assuming this-gen games: If I bought a console from last-gen, I could easily get myself a good condition Xbox or PS2 with a dozen-plus games at the same cost). Hell, look earlier in the thread: An army I could make five years ago, and can still make now, with absolutely no model change, is $140 cheaper five years ago. And the worst bit? That's using modern edition rules: Using last edition's codex, there'd be (since I'm taking Squigs, which were helluva expensive last edition as opposed to this one) even less money spent on the units. Can you give me a straight-up explanation as to why an army, with the exact same models in the exact same numbers, should be $140 cheaper five years ago?

I'm not going to leave the hobby: As I said, it's been nine years of my life. Leaving the hobby would feel like cutting out a part of myself. However, as long as I can manage the self control, I'm not giving a penny more to GW except where absolutely necessary to continue my participation (New Edition Rulebook, new Army Book for army I have), and even then it's going to be through discounting suppliers (Who can barely come close to matching the prices from five years back).

If Games Workshop wants more of my money (which they likely do), they're going to have to stop raising the prices on models that have not changed in the past decade. They're going to have to stop looking down on us "Veterans" (I don't consider myself in the same tier as the older Dakkadakka-ites, but I still consider myself a part of the hobby having been involved since before LotR, back in 3rd / 6th Edition) and grabbing Jimmy Eight-Year-Old's attention (Yes, I know I started young. However, they weren't pushing specifically at people my age when I joined: When I joined, 13+ was the age my GW seemed to push for. Now, my GW will push it towards anyone of nearly any age. And staff can get in trouble if they don't). Most importantly, they're going to have to return it back to a HOBBY, and not a BUSINESS. What happened to Bitz Order, that we were promised would return in a year or two better than ever? What happened to supplements and allies? What happened to the wonderful trial rules and stuff like General's Compendium?

Minsc wrote:

beef wrote:I actually cant understand why so many people who have supposedly left the hobby still complain about it on the interweb?

Nine years. I've been playing for nine years, since I was 10 years old (or almost half my life). As I watch other hobbies I could have become a part of (Videogames, sports) become cheaper and potentially more profitable (Look at videogame tournaments or sports scholarships), I watch my current hobby... grow more and more expensive while many of the converted models I made have been resigned to a permanent space on my shelf due to the very slim likelihood of GW returning their equipment combinations. Hell, consider that Orc & Goblin troll models have not changed in the last seventeen years. Now, also consider that the models have become $7 more expensive (or just under a 50% increase in their price) from their '04-'05 cost alone (I would offer their '92 price, but it appears the catalogue doesn't have prices listed). And they've been making changes like this across the board somewhat consistently in recent years.

When I started, I could buy a new army fresh off the presses at about 2.5-3K for the same cost (if not cheaper than) a new Videogame Console. Now? I might be able to squeeze out a min-model 2.5K list for the price of a new 360 ($300 USD), or could buy a used console and a handful of games for the same cost (assuming this-gen games: If I bought a console from last-gen, I could easily get myself a good condition Xbox or PS2 with a dozen-plus games at the same cost). Hell, look earlier in the thread: An army I could make five years ago, and can still make now, with absolutely no model change, is $140 cheaper five years ago. And the worst bit? That's using modern edition rules: Using last edition's codex, there'd be (since I'm taking Squigs, which were helluva expensive last edition as opposed to this one) even less money spent on the units. Can you give me a straight-up explanation as to why an army, with the exact same models in the exact same numbers, should be $140 cheaper five years ago?

I'm not going to leave the hobby: As I said, it's been nine years of my life. Leaving the hobby would feel like cutting out a part of myself. However, as long as I can manage the self control, I'm not giving a penny more to GW except where absolutely necessary to continue my participation (New Edition Rulebook, new Army Book for army I have), and even then it's going to be through discounting suppliers (Who can barely come close to matching the prices from five years back).

If Games Workshop wants more of my money (which they likely do), they're going to have to stop raising the prices on models that have not changed in the past decade. They're going to have to stop looking down on us "Veterans" (I don't consider myself in the same tier as the older Dakkadakka-ites, but I still consider myself a part of the hobby having been involved since before LotR, back in 3rd / 6th Edition) and grabbing Jimmy Eight-Year-Old's attention (Yes, I know I started young. However, they weren't pushing specifically at people my age when I joined: When I joined, 13+ was the age my GW seemed to push for. Now, my GW will push it towards anyone of nearly any age. And staff can get in trouble if they don't). Most importantly, they're going to have to return it back to a HOBBY, and not a BUSINESS. What happened to Bitz Order, that we were promised would return in a year or two better than ever? What happened to supplements and allies? What happened to the wonderful trial rules and stuff like General's Compendium?

The thing is, you're the exact type of vet GW doesn't want to cater to. You want it to be a hobby, not a busines...but reality is they are a business, and just like in real life, business comes first. Also, vets feel entitled to certain things because they've bought stuff already. Realisticly that doesn't keep a company in business. You ask what happened to bitz, and what happened to this and that? The reality is vets didn't buy enough of that stuff and it didn't make enough money to be worth it. So it got canned. When something doesn't sell at the supermarket, guess what happens to it? You think the supermarket will restock it?

Once again, if you're gonna successfully argue for change, you need to argue from a beancounter's perspective. The number people. Why should GW do your proposed changes? People complain about this or that. That's useless. Propose a real, practical solution that works.

Also, if you're not gonna give a penny besides the absolute minimum, well, I remember asking, "Isn't the customer always right?" when I worked for a Chinese company. I got laughed at. The response was, "No, the PAYING customer is always right." Why should a company cater to a customer that isn't going to give them more money? It's obvious what's in it for you, but what's in it for them?

scuddman wrote:Also, vets feel entitled to certain things because they've bought stuff already.

If you're saying I think I should get special treatment because I've been in the hobby nine years, that's false. However, I similarly don't think that GW should forget about their older hobbyists so quickly, or deny the current generation of hobbyists what my / last generation had. Do you think it's fair that people who joined in the last year or three can't use Bitz Order, a system that had been renown as one of the best? Or that they have to pay $5-$10 for the exact same thing someone else bought?

You ask what happened to bitz, and what happened to this and that? The reality is vets didn't buy enough of that stuff and it didn't make enough money to be worth it.

That would explain removing it, and I understand that: Keeping the system together was expensive. However, what happened to the quality of service then? What happened to the promise to return it better than ever? Furthermore, Veterans not using Bitz Order? Up until the day that Bitz Order was canned, my GW was getting constant influx of people who wouldn't even buy store boxes / blisters, but were instead using the computer & store catalogues to purchase bitz. Bitz Order wasn't something one in a dozen people used once in a blue moon: It was something that most of the shop used at least once a week if they were working on a project.

When something doesn't sell at the supermarket, guess what happens to it? You think the supermarket will restock it?

The thing is, it was selling. It was selling good in some places. This is more akin to "We are selling Campbells soup. 70% of our places are selling it, 10% of those almost as fast as we can shelf it. However, 30% of our shops aren't selling. As such, we're going to discontinue all sales of Campbells soup in all shops."

The response was, "No, the PAYING customer is always right." Why should a company cater to a customer that isn't going to give them more money?

scuddman wrote:Also, vets feel entitled to certain things because they've bought stuff already.

So, at the start of the thread you're saying "People who've paid for stuff shouldn't be entitled to certain / extra things". Then, later in your very same post, "People who are paying for stuff should be entitled to have their voices heard." Which is it, hm?

And no, I'm twisting no words around. First paragraph, you said no special treatment because you're a long-time veteran / hobbyist who's been buying stuff. Final paragraph, you're saying that a business shouldn't listen to you unless you're a paying customer. So if they don't need to listen to you while you're buying stuff from them, and then once you stop buying stuff from them because they're not listening, how are we supposed to change things around? Are we supposed to just take whatever we're given and pray that GW knows best? Are we supposed to become members of the company and modify the layout ourselves? Because, right now, there's no way for a hobbyist to influence the company: Just because you're paying for stuff, you're not to be given special treatment / listened to. If you stop buying stuff / never started because of the changes made in recent years, you're not to be given any attention because you're not a source of ready-cash for GW.

It's obvious what's in it for you, but what's in it for them?

Our money? If the sole reason we're not buying stuff is they're not listening to us, and the people who're already buying stuff aren't going to buy any less by listening to our demands (Show of hands: Who here on this forum that buys GW stuff would stop buying if, *Gasp* prices stopped raising in 5-15% increments almost annually, or *Gasp again* Bitz Order returned?), they're losing out more money.

Paying present tense is not the same as paid, past tense.

scuddman wrote:Paying present tense is not the same as paid, past tense.

So it's not that you're paying GW, it's that you must be paying them right now, frequently, and with no immediate plans to stop buying from them, otherwise you're in the "paid, not paying" category?

I liked the idea of bitz order, but it had some fundamental problems. First, there is this impression that they can make a specific piece separate or what not. While that was sometimes the case, it usually wasn't. So if you wanted a specifc metal arm, the whole model had to be made, the thinking was later on someone would bitz order the body, but when you've got lots of inventory and now you have to keep track of parts in inventory...yeah a mess.

Simply put, bitz grew too big and lost them tons of money...all just to provide a service. For the longest time it was there...to provide a service. But unless they tripled prices, it simply wasn't worth the hassle. And I don't think tripling the prices is a good solution either.

On top of that, warehouse workers are not GW gamers. They didn't know and still don't know what the difference between the pieces are. Mistakes frequently happenned. It was a mess.

I don't know, I don't like it either. I liked bitz alot, I would have liked for it to stay. But honestly I don't know what a real cost effective solution would be.


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Most vets are like you...they buy the absolute minimum to keep playing. That's not a "paying" customer. That's a I already "paid" customer.

This isn't specific to GW, this is specific to business.

It's simple common sense. You cater to the person that's going to give you your next paycheck. Just because you gave them a paycheck before doesn't mean that you'll give them a paycheck NOW or in the FUTURE. Trust me, I don't like the idea, but go to a car lot and openly say you have no interest in buying because you already have one. Watch the salesman go to other customers. You already bought one right? Maybe you'll buy another, maybe not...but the other customers that haven't bought one are much more likely to buy one. THat's it, nothing complicated about it. It's no different than a mcdonald's employee telling the next customer, "May I take your order?" He's already done with you, you've already paid, the next customer in line needs service and is paying.


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I'm a vet myself. I have a lot of friends that play GW. When I first got hired on way back in the day ( I no longer work for GW), I offered my employee discount to all of my friends. Employee discout is better than wholesale price.

Not a single person took me up on my offer. Why? Because they already had everything they wanted at the time. They only wanted stuff to turn around and sell on ebay or something, which I wasn't willing to do.

I don't know. I walked into GW wanting to see how things worked and to change things if I could. I found there's a lot of real world problems with the things that us as gamers and players wanted. It's not always that simple.

For instance, as a vet, I'm a big big person on game balance and good game design. But it's hard to show that putting resources into those things make the game sell better.

Sometimes I feel the internet posts are too reactionary. If I walked into a business meeting at GW and suggested that game balance should be better, they would fire back, "How much does that cost? Will we recoup our cost? How does that help us sell the game better? What about x problem or y problem or whatever?"

If it was that easy, someone would have dethroned GW already.

scuddman wrote: It's no different than a mcdonald's employee telling the next customer, "May I take your order?" He's already done with you, you've already paid, the next customer in line needs service and is paying.

That's a bad example since Mc Donalds wants you to come back again, and they still cater to you while you are actively using their product. I.E. sitting there eating your burger. So if you are a McDonald's veteran eater, they want you to eat more now, tomorrow, and next month. So they give you the Big Mac, the same one that's been around for 40 years, and you eat it. GW doesn't keep old rules or bring back units and make them viable again or keep "Old Reliable" around for 20 years.

Come up with a different analogy as the basis of your arguement is that once you buy something from GW, they don't care as they are done with you and moving on to the next new thing, for the next new dollar. That's more along the lines of a Software company. Sure you bought this game last year, but here it is again with shiney new features! The core is the same, but the focus is different. Look at a franchise like Call of Duty or Civilizations for example.

Before it was 10 man skirmish, then it was a small vehicle or two. After that it was 3-4 squads and maybe a vehicle, then came tanks and larger games. Then they drop points costs, eliminate X troop for Y Troop. THAT is how they get you to buy more. THAT is why some of us have 10,000 point armies on the shelf. It really is a sound strategy. Sure you don't have to like it, but you have to admire it. Of course I'm not happy that 30 marines 20 years ago cost $20.00 and now those same 30 marines cost $105.00.

Alas, it's a game. It's expendible income. Feel free to complain, but in the end, you don't HAVE to buy a damn thing from them.

You misread that. The mcdonald's example was to clarify the statement, "The Paying customer is always right" Has nothing to do with GW. And you're right, it might not have been the best example.


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TalonZahn wrote:

scuddman wrote: It's no different than a mcdonald's employee telling the next customer, "May I take your order?" He's already done with you, you've already paid, the next customer in line needs service and is paying.

That's a bad example since Mc Donalds wants you to come back again, and they still cater to you while you are actively using their product. I.E. sitting there eating your burger. So if you are a McDonald's veteran eater, they want you to eat more now, tomorrow, and next month. So they give you the Big Mac, the same one that's been around for 40 years, and you eat it. GW doesn't keep old rules or bring back units and make them viable again or keep "Old Reliable" around for 20 years.

Come up with a different analogy as the basis of your arguement is that once you buy something from GW, they don't care as they are done with you and moving on to the next new thing, for the next new dollar. That's more along the lines of a Software company. Sure you bought this game last year, but here it is again with shiney new features! The core is the same, but the focus is different. Look at a franchise like Call of Duty or Civilizations for example.

Before it was 10 man skirmish, then it was a small vehicle or two. After that it was 3-4 squads and maybe a vehicle, then came tanks and larger games. Then they drop points costs, eliminate X troop for Y Troop. THAT is how they get you to buy more. THAT is why some of us have 10,000 point armies on the shelf. It really is a sound strategy. Sure you don't have to like it, but you have to admire it. Of course I'm not happy that 30 marines 20 years ago cost $20.00 and now those same 30 marines cost $105.00.

Alas, it's a game. It's expendible income. Feel free to complain, but in the end, you don't HAVE to buy a damn thing from them.

Yeah, we had that discussion earlier about planned obsolescence. It's pretty insidious. But it's also why it's a successful business model.

Worth reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence

Did you happen to read it?

Wiki wrote:In the United Kingdom, planned obsolescence engineered into products is considered a breach of customer rights. The Office of Fair Trading and Trading Standards Institute investigate claims of products constantly failing just outside the warranty period. A famous case of this was the 'Click Wheel' Apple iPod, which many consumers found to fail within 18 months of purchase.[10]

As to your 'Paying customer' rule, you are either a customer or you are not. In the case of GW, you are either buying products or not, and anything extra is included with any services offered (returns, etc...). A 'paying customer', would be like saying, 'the real reality'. What in the hell does that mean?

If you receive a service (and none of this is really applicable to GW, given the nature of their goods/services), all said and done, like a new deck or house, or what have you; then decide to not pay, you are a thief. Not a 'non-paying' customer.

If you can only be right when you pay, why in the feth would the company change ? That makes absolutely no sense at all. In terms of car salesmen, the majority of people that buy cars, already have cars; and cars are ridiculously incomparable to tiny plastic soldiers. Did you know that all fruits and veggies come out of the soil? OUT. OF. THE. SOIL.

Madness I say... who would have thought it was so simple this whole time.

You're reading too much into it. It's not that complicated. You cater to the person that gets you your next paycheck. What they've done in the past is irrelevant. If it's repeat business, that's different, because they ARE giving your next paycheck. Most vets DON"T buy directly from GW anymore, they are NOT giving GW their next paycheck.
That's it.

The problem with planned obsolescence being illegal is that it's hard to prove. THere is planned obsolescence in most everything, just look at cars for example. Or Tv's. And yet, illegal or not, they are still doing it.

When some really rich senator donates to Harvard, his son gets in regardless of his grades. It happens all the time. Shouldn't that be illegal? And yet it keeps happening.
Maybe Wrex, you should sue GW for planned obsolescence. See how that goes.



Maybe a better more cut and dry example. Let's say I own a restaurant, and some guy keeps coming in and never buys anything. He's there simply to grab food after the customers are done eating and being a general nuisance. Most of the time, people are like, "Customers are always right! You should still give him the best customer service!" Well, he's not buying anything, so he's not a customer. I boot him out the door.

The next day, the guys is a little smarter. He buys the cheapest drink on the menu. "Ha! Now I'm a customer! You can't touch me!"
In this case, he is a customer, but is the customer always right?

I don't know, the Chinese don't think so in this case. Out the door he goes. But what do you guys think? Should I still treat him as a customer, even though he's not making me any money?



How about another example:
After throwing him out twice, he concedes he wasn't really a customer, because I didn't make any money either time. He comes in a third time, and this time fully pays for his meal and leaves properly after eating. He comes in the next day and is a general nuisance again. "You made money off of me! Now I'm a customer! You can't touch me! I demand you give me food again!"
What about now? He made me money before...once...but he's not making money for me now. Now what do I do? And if I let him get away with it, what will my real paying customers think?

scuddman wrote:You're reading too much into it. It's not that complicated. You cater to the person that gets you your next paycheck. What they've done in the past is irrelevant. If it's repeat business, that's different, because they ARE giving your next paycheck. Most vets DON"T buy directly from GW anymore, they are NOT giving GW their next paycheck.
That's it.

No it is a complicated issue that you are drastically oversimplifying. Your money goes to GW when you buy their new products. If it is in a box, wrapped and shiny, and not stolen, you paid GW in part through your purchase. That much, is simple.

The problem with planned obsolescence being illegal is that it's hard to prove. THere is planned obsolescence in most everything, just look at cars for example. Or Tv's. And yet, illegal or not, they are still doing it.

It is hard to prove because it is not there... Designing something to be perfect, and planned obsolescence are two different things. Having a faulty product can be indicative of many things about a company; PO is something that is usually very easy to identify. That makes it less likely companies will actually go about making a good design bad, for monetary gain. In general that is what PO is, taking something good, and making it worse on purpose.

Maybe Wrex, you should sue GW for planned obsolescence. See how that goes.

I never accused GW of planned obsolescence, you did.

Your Wiki link wrote:Planned style obsolescence occurs when marketers change the styling of products so customers will purchase products more frequently. The style changes are designed to make owners of the old model feel "out of date". It is also designed to differentiate the product from the competition, thereby reducing price competition. One example of style obsolescence is the automobile industry, in which manufacturers typically make style changes every year or two. As the former CEO of General Motors, Alfred P. Sloan stated in 1941, "Today the appearance of a motorcar is a most important factor in the selling end of the business—perhaps the most important factor— because everyone knows the car will run."[7]

This is as close as you will get with planned obsolescence through GW products/services. As a matter simple fact, even this doesn't hold up at all; your plastic soldiers from two decades ago, can be used in their same role today. If you play squats... too bad I suppose. It still is not planned obsolescence, it is supply and demand (no demand, no supply).

Maybe a better more cut and dry example. Let's say I own a restaurant, and some guy keeps coming in and never buys anything. He's there simply to grab food after the customers are done eating and being a general nuisance. Most of the time, people are like, "Customers are always right! You should still give him the best customer service!" Well, he's not buying anything, so he's not a customer. I boot him out the door.

The next day, the guys is a little smarter. He buys the cheapest drink on the menu. "Ha! Now I'm a customer! You can't touch me!"
In this case, he is a customer, but is the customer always right?

I don't know, the Chinese don't think so in this case. Out the door he goes. But what do you guys think? Should I still treat him as a customer, even though he's not making me any money?

How does that compare to a company that sells wargaming goods? I still don't understand what it is you are trying to argue here. There is no person buying dollar sodas (he is a customer BTW, a customer that bought a soda) then pillaging the remains of your other customers food, in this situation. They are still two separate issues at any rate though; you have a customer who bought a soda, then pillaged the remains of other customers food, causing a safety hazard/ liability issue.

A better example is Dark Eldar, they still sell them but don't support the product with updated rules... Still weak IMO but closer. There is a clear expectation in society that companies that sell products should support them.

It's not me who argued that GW makes things obsolete. <shrug> I'm perfectly fine with my army.

Okay, if he is a customer, how long is he a customer? Should I treat him like a customer even if I don't make money? Should I treat him like a customer even if he never buys from me again? What rationale as a business would I have to be willing to do those things?

So the lesson I learn here is that clicking refresh is a bad idea. Whoopsie. Triple post ftl.

agnosto wrote:A better example is Dark Eldar, they still sell them but don't support the product with updated rules... Still weak IMO but closer. There is a clear expectation in society that companies that sell products should support them.

What support does GW offer when you buy a product? I don't recall 'commonly accepted' business policies being the end all for anything corporate related.

When you buy a box of soldiers from GW, it comes with a pretty strong guarantee that defects will be replaced. That is about the extent of the 'warranty' offered to you. It is obvious that many DE players have been dragged into thinking that they may be getting a new army... right after Duke Nu- hmmm...

scuddman wrote:It's not me who argued that GW makes things obsolete. <shrug> I'm perfectly fine with my army.

Okay, if he is a customer, how long is he a customer? Should I treat him like a customer even if I don't make money? Should I treat him like a customer even if he never buys from me again? What rationale as a business would I have to be willing to do those things?

Do you mean offering mints to them or something? When it comes to the way that GW does business, there are no perks, just demographics.

The main point that I have been hearing, is that GW responded officially to requests for a Bitz service, and in doing so, indicated that they would be bringing it back online. To do that, then completely forget about it all of a sudden... is just stupid marketing.

I would not be a bit surprised to see higher prices coming on GW miniatures and it definitely wouldn't be anything new.

I remember buying WD magazine for $5.00, now it is $10.00. The sad part is that I am only interested in about 1/3 of the magazine (40K part), the rest is wasted paper as far as I am concerned.

I have heard complaints from retailers, especially the smaller ones, because they are being made to stock items that simply don't sale in their stores. More than anything, this practice is hurting many of the smaller shops, which is about all that we have in this area. Many of the shops have stopped selling GW all together no longer provide playing tables... instead offering the tables to alternative ( non GW games) game players and RPGers.

Because of the prices of GW products, I would not be surprised if more people turn to alternative games such as War Machine and Infinity.

Isn't this a form of planned obsolescence, like what clothing companies do in fashion?

I guess it's like a loophole. If unit A was really good in 1st edition, but now really bad in 2nd edition, it technically isn't planned obsolescence. Legally anyways.

But of course, guess what the person with Unit A thinks.

@Wrexasaur

LOL. Yeah, poor sots. It still is a bit sad that GW still sells the models, creating the expectation that it's a viable army.

I, personally, never would have bought a tau army if I knew I was going to lose most of the time (where's the fun in that?); but then, I suck at the game I guess.

I just thought DE would be a better example than squats as newer players may not even know what a squat is, except the verb.

It doesnt require a person to buy brand new GW product inside a GW shop for GW company to benefit.

Discount retailers? : GW benefit
ebay retailer ? GW benefit
Normal people like you and i selling our old GW items? GW benefit
Players using paper cut out to count as GW game to play warhammer? GW benefit.

agnosto wrote:@Wrexasaur

LOL. Yeah, poor sots. It still is a bit sad that GW still sells the models, creating the expectation that it's a viable army.

I think that most of the hype is actually from the gamers themselves, or at least was for a time. It kinda seems like GW may be behind some of the viral marketing as of late... just a scent in the air though, nothing substantial to back that up.

I, personally, never would have bought a tau army if I knew I was going to lose most of the time (where's the fun in that?); but then, I suck at the game I guess.

If you are trying to play a competitive, edgy, skillful game, try doing it without dice. , no way to beat lady luck when she is angry at you.

The main problem I have is with the inherent imbalancing in across the codices. I truly never expect this to change all that much, especially with how much half of the armies got nerfed due to the newest edition. I play Eldar, and I can pretty much fight any army given the right list, but there really isn't all that much pleasure in hammering my opponent with razor sharp dice; for me at least. There are still serious limitations with all of the older codices (Tau, Necrons, etc... especially) that make the game practically boring to play. With eldar, even though my footslogging lists can get ripped into tiny pieces by artillery... wait... all of them? SERIOUSLY?

I just thought DE would be a better example than squats as newer players may not even know what a squat is, except the verb.

Funny thing is that a solid mobile list with DE, can actually put some hardcore moves onto the new codices. Especially IG, with all that tasty, tasty armor lumbering around.

Wrexasaur wrote:This is as close as you will get with planned obsolescence through GW products/services. As a matter simple fact, even this doesn't hold up at all; your plastic soldiers from two decades ago, can be used in their same role today. If you play squats... too bad I suppose. It still is not planned obsolescence, it is supply and demand (no demand, no supply).

There was a demand for squats and they were a constant moderately good seller. They withdrew them because they didn't like them, not because they didn't sell. There are plenty of other examples more recent than 20 years ago. How about Dogs of War, or Chaos Dwarves? Then there's various individual figures in armies everywhere that are left with illegal weapon combinations or figures that no longer are supported. I'm not up to speed with the Tau, but didn't they lose some of their stealth suit miniatures after their first Codex? And currently it looks like support for the Witchhunters and Deamonhunters might be on the wane with reduced lists being published in future. Where that leaves people with large armies of such things I'm not sure. And now thinking about it, what about the Kislev army list published for 6th edition? Is that going to be updated? Are the figures still available?

Not sure about that, I could ask my friend about Tau though, he has been playing them for a while.

I can imagine it is pretty difficult to support such a wide array of armies, hence the saying, 'One day... Only imperial armies shall dwelleth here'...

I doubt that highly, but I would not doubt the possibility that many armies simply get trimmed off for sake of simplicity. WH40k is a pretty flexible game for the players right now, without the proper support of course... but I guess it is something. Not a really good something, but a something nonetheless.

The Tau Stealth Suit models swapped out, and they changed the general flow for them.

They went from being a Fire Warrior wearing basically what was a set of Powered Stealth Carapace Armor and carrying a burst cannon--to what they are now. Which is basically a scaled down Crisis Suit with Stealth characteristics. The older ones(XV15) are still available though, direct from GW only(I think) alongside the XV25s.

If these price hikes continue I may just quit all together. And I wouldn't even call it a boycott, I just wont war game anymore, as no other system interests me. Ill just spend my "hobby" money on something else entirely, though the books will keep my attention.

And I know a great many people who feel the same way. If they cant afford GW, they will just up and quit, and go back to Xbox live or WoW.

Obligatory:
This has not been confirmed, in any way, shape, or form as of this moment. This is currently the same credibility of rumor as "My brother's girlfriend's sister looked over the shoulder of a printing press technician and saw that the schedule has Codex: Pan Fo listed!"

Before you all continue crying that the world is coming to an end, think for a moment. Every price raise, GW has given vendors plenty of warning, and even announced it on their website. The lack of outgoing information on it pretty much puts this rumor down like Old Yeller.

Two-Step wrote:
I remember buying WD magazine for $5.00, now it is $10.00. The sad part is that I am only interested in about 1/3 of the magazine (40K part), the rest is wasted paper as far as I am concerned.

I have heard complaints from retailers, especially the smaller ones, because they are being made to stock items that simply don't sale in their stores. More than anything, this practice is hurting many of the smaller shops, which is about all that we have in this area.

Your local store is tacking on an extra buck then, since WD has a 9.00 price on the cover.

And about those complaints from smaller stores being MADE to stock items? Just not true.

-You can have a direct account with GW and order just what you want. You pay shipping. If the order is over 400.00, GW pays the shipping. This is standard in the game industry. If I order from Alliance, or ACD, I pay shipping, unless I'm over 300/350 dollars, and then they pay shipping.

-If a retailer stocks the bare minimum of plastic boxes and starter sets for all 3 systems, then GW lets you order any dollar amount, and get free shipping. Plus they give you 600.00 a year in prize support for your tournaments.

What you're hearing is "Waaaah! I just want to order 40k, and I want all the benefits other stores get! Waaaah!"

Nothing, Nothing, Nothing in GW's terms of business require a store to order certain items, or amounts from them. Nothing. Meeting requirments for a stockist store is easy. It's bare minimum to carry GW at all, in my opinion.

And if a store doesn't want to deal with GW, they can order it elsewhere, from a regular game distributor and tack it onto their normal order.

Can't sell what you don't have. What might be hurting those 'smaller stores' is not having enough stuff to sell. You won't get bigger by not having what your customer wants to buy.

Sorry for the rant. But it really gets me angry at times, simply because GW actually gives more support to games stores than any other manufacturer. And it's really easy for a store to get that support. But the ones that don't try, and don't order the product, don't deserve to get the support that others met the requirements for.

You ask what happened to bitz, and what happened to this and that? The reality is vets didn't buy enough of that stuff and it didn't make enough money to be worth it.

That would explain removing it, and I understand that: Keeping the system together was expensive. However, what happened to the quality of service then? What happened to the promise to return it better than ever? Furthermore, Veterans not using Bitz Order? Up until the day that Bitz Order was canned, my GW was getting constant influx of people who wouldn't even buy store boxes / blisters, but were instead using the computer & store catalogues to purchase bitz. Bitz Order wasn't something one in a dozen people used once in a blue moon: It was something that most of the shop used at least once a week if they were working on a project.

Working in the logistics and supply chain industry i can understand *why* GW canned the bits business...
Even though it was well used, I'm guessing the over head of having a decent stock management system, the physical warehouse space to run it in, and the poor trolls to actually do the work made it just not viable enough for them to keep it going... especially with
a) expanding product lines (WOTR etc) and
b) a sudden need to reduce costs (this is the biggy)

Its a real shame its no longer there :(

The main reason GW gets away with raising prices so often is that people still buy their product, even a grossly inflated prices.

There are two main reasons people still buy their product as opposed to some alternative:

1) GW minis look true to the GW fluff.

2) GW requires GW minis to be used in GW tournies and GW stores. If you use an alternative, you cannot participate in GW tournies or at GW stores.

So if you intend to compete in GW tournies, or if your flgs is a GW store, you are stuck. Likewise if you really really prefer the look of the GW minis.

Otherwise... search the alternate manufactureres for something suitable, and save some dough.

Vulcan wrote:The main reason GW gets away with raising prices so often is that people still buy their product, even a grossly inflated prices.

There are two main reasons people still buy their product as opposed to some alternative:

1) GW minis look true to the GW fluff.

2) GW requires GW minis to be used in GW tournies and GW stores. If you use an alternative, you cannot participate in GW tournies or at GW stores.

You forgot:

3) Some people have enough disposable income and don't mind paying what GW is asking.

With people setting up their own bits businesses GW still makes some money selling the kits to these businesses without having to actually run any sort of bits operation.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:This is as close as you will get with planned obsolescence through GW products/services. As a matter simple fact, even this doesn't hold up at all; your plastic soldiers from two decades ago, can be used in their same role today. If you play squats... too bad I suppose. It still is not planned obsolescence, it is supply and demand (no demand, no supply).

There was a demand for squats and they were a constant moderately good seller. They withdrew them because they didn't like them, not because they didn't sell. There are plenty of other examples more recent than 20 years ago. How about Dogs of War, or Chaos Dwarves? Then there's various individual figures in armies everywhere that are left with illegal weapon combinations or figures that no longer are supported. I'm not up to speed with the Tau, but didn't they lose some of their stealth suit miniatures after their first Codex? And currently it looks like support for the Witchhunters and Deamonhunters might be on the wane with reduced lists being published in future. Where that leaves people with large armies of such things I'm not sure. And now thinking about it, what about the Kislev army list published for 6th edition? Is that going to be updated? Are the figures still available?

If they don't update tau I'll be stuck with 2 armies I can't use; tau and my chaos dwarfs.

mikhaila wrote:

Two-Step wrote:
I remember buying WD magazine for $5.00, now it is $10.00. The sad part is that I am only interested in about 1/3 of the magazine (40K part), the rest is wasted paper as far as I am concerned.

I have heard complaints from retailers, especially the smaller ones, because they are being made to stock items that simply don't sale in their stores. More than anything, this practice is hurting many of the smaller shops, which is about all that we have in this area.

Your local store is tacking on an extra buck then, since WD has a 9.00 price on the cover.

And about those complaints from smaller stores being MADE to stock items? Just not true.

-You can have a direct account with GW and order just what you want. You pay shipping. If the order is over 400.00, GW pays the shipping. This is standard in the game industry. If I order from Alliance, or ACD, I pay shipping, unless I'm over 300/350 dollars, and then they pay shipping.

-If a retailer stocks the bare minimum of plastic boxes and starter sets for all 3 systems, then GW lets you order any dollar amount, and get free shipping. Plus they give you 600.00 a year in prize support for your tournaments.

What you're hearing is "Waaaah! I just want to order 40k, and I want all the benefits other stores get! Waaaah!"

Nothing, Nothing, Nothing in GW's terms of business require a store to order certain items, or amounts from them. Nothing. Meeting requirments for a stockist store is easy. It's bare minimum to carry GW at all, in my opinion.

And if a store doesn't want to deal with GW, they can order it elsewhere, from a regular game distributor and tack it onto their normal order.

Can't sell what you don't have. What might be hurting those 'smaller stores' is not having enough stuff to sell. You won't get bigger by not having what your customer wants to buy.

Sorry for the rant. But it really gets me angry at times, simply because GW actually gives more support to games stores than any other manufacturer. And it's really easy for a store to get that support. But the ones that don't try, and don't order the product, don't deserve to get the support that others met the requirements for.

First of all, I pay sales tax at both the state and federal level. That means that a $9.00 magazine cost me about $10.00. The Government is tacking on the extra dollar, not the retailer.But, that is still TEN DOLLARS OUT OF MY POCKET.

Second, the retailer I am talking about has to stock certain items, even the ones that are not popular or don't sale. Granted, it may just be that he has a douchebag sales rep. If that is the case, then it is the same douchebag sales rep that many other retailers have and the same douchebag sales rep that I talked to a few years ago when I thought about selling GW products. If it isn't true, as you say, then why do so many smaller shops buying from GW say the exact same thing and why was I told the very same thing a few years ago? Are you saying that GW has a douchebag sales rep, who is just trying to bump his numbers?

Third, What hurts retailers is stocking items that don't sale. For example, if Lord of the Rings does not sale( the case here), yet they have to carry the line in order to remain "GW authorized", then they are being hurt. If nobody is interested in a product line it won't sale... no matter how much or little of it a shop has.

Fourth, every retailer deserves the same support as any other, no matter how big or small. I find it interesting that you don't think so and said as much in your post. You almost sound like a sales rep trying to bump numbers, instead of an actual GW customer and fan. But, surely that can't be the case, not after your "waaah" remark about smaller shops carrying what they don't want, in order to keep their "GW authorization" or what ever it is called.

Remember, the larges retail chain in the world started off as a small general store in a little towe, in Arkansas. While a hobby shop may not have quite the same success, it is they that keeps GW in business. Sure, folks can buy directly through GW or through a web site, but it is the local retailer that is providing a place to play. If they don't get the same support as larger shops, then the small retailer may have to stop carrying the product, thus causing many folks to have no where to play and no reason to buy further GW products. I know... it happened where I live and only now is the GW community staring to build momentum.

He's not saying you need to carrying items to be "GW Authorised", quite the opposite actually.

mikhaila wrote:-You can have a direct account with GW and order just what you want. You pay shipping. If the order is over 400.00, GW pays the shipping. This is standard in the game industry. If I order from Alliance, or ACD, I pay shipping, unless I'm over 300/350 dollars, and then they pay shipping.

Order anything you like for store, order over $400 worth, get free shipping

mikhaila wrote:-If a retailer stocks the bare minimum of plastic boxes and starter sets for all 3 systems, then GW lets you order any dollar amount, and get free shipping. Plus they give you 600.00 a year in prize support for your tournaments.

Stock 40k, WFB and LoTR and what are regarded as the core sets to support that, and get free shipping even on sub $400 orders

So, if you don't want to stock specific items, order large, or pay shipping, like every other distributor requires.
OR
Stock a small amount of items to qualify for an incentive scheme to stock said items, and get free shipping on your orders, and get $600 worth of prizes a year to support tournies. Sounds like a small price to pay for the benefits to me.

Simple really.

Two-step wrote:Third, What hurts retailers is stocking items that don't sale. For example, if Lord of the Rings does not sale( the case here), yet they have to carry the line in order to remain "GW authorized"

Only if they want free shipping on sub $400 orders and $600 of prizes a year.

Two-step wrote:Fourth, every retailer deserves the same support as any other, no matter how big or small.

They do.

I don't know about the situation with what people can order and arrangements with sales reps, but my LGS has an interesting time dealing with GW. Obviously he makes money from stocking their stuff which is why he maintains it. But from what I understand, while he can order specific items for customers, he's also given regular deliveries of things and he is lumbered with stuff that he can't sell such as LOTR, and that's costly when you take into account the high wholesale price GW place on things. Other times there are high demand items and GW simply won't supply them...it's a love/hate thing really, they are items that make money and pull in customers but they can be frustrating to deal with. This idea that they can't help the independent retailers enough simply doesn't add up.

The biggest complaint seems to be about the price hikes that may or may not be on their way.
The other complaint seems to be over the constant changes that GW makes to their product lines.
Both are necessary.

Why shouldn't GW raise their prices. After all, they have to pay their employees, just like every other business. Folks want higher pay and better benefits... that money has to come from someplace.

Also, I always encourage people to buy from local shops. Aside from contributing to your local economy, it also helps provide a support system to the player, by allowing customers to buy their models and often provides a place to play, in the way of regular games to tournaments... not something you are going to get from a on-line store.

Retailers don't like higher prices any more than the customer, but they do have to pass those increase on to us. The local shop here, offers a membership program, which allows customers to take advantage of in-store discounts. GW has a pretty decent profit margin and while the MSRP may be a bit high, it gives the retailer enough room to offer discounts and still make a profit.

Remember, we may not like the higher prices, but if we worked for GW, we would want to get paid and benefited just like everyone else.
Also, GW (IMHO), is absolutely the best over all miniatures wargame company in the world.

My recommendation is "Don't let the higher prices or the possibility of higher prices turn you from GW." If you feel that a 2k point army is out of your budget, think smaller. Even tough I always maintained a 2K army or two, I also took part in my fair share of 500pt, kill team and "pit" games. While not necessarily GW sanctioned, they can be every bit as much fun as fielding a full 2000+ point army.

Right now, the price increase is a rumor.. but expect it anyway and start saving now.

Two-Step wrote:Why shouldn't GW raise their prices.

Of all the things I've asked in this thread, I'm still waiting for an explanation why an army with absolutely no model changes in the last five years (Longer than that, actually: Since the last O&G army book) costs a full 50% / $140 more now than it did five years ago.

I'm still waiting for an answer.

EDIT: The reason Fantasy Players need a 2000+ point army is because, unlike 40K, they're being deprived force organization choices. 40K you can take 2 HQ's, 3 Elite / Fast Attack / Heavy Support, and 6 Troops at 200pts, you can take that at 3000pts. In WHFB, you cannot use your Lord characters until 2,000pts. Some War Machines / Units take up multiple force organization slots, and similarly cannot be used until higher point levels. Sure, you can make a bunch of under-2K lists, but don't be surprised if you only get to use them against newbies or during the once-in-a-blue-moon Mordheim / Warbands campaigns.

Two-Step wrote:My recommendation is "Don't let the higher prices or the possibility of higher prices turn you from GW." If you feel that a 2k point army is out of your budget, think smaller. Even tough I always maintained a 2K army or two, I also took part in my fair share of 500pt, kill team and "pit" games. While not necessarily GW sanctioned, they can be every bit as much fun as fielding a full 2000+ point army.

Why? Unless you are satisfied by playing WH40k in it's most limited form, that is a lame excuse to buy GW products.

For persons first army, they can expect to drop in the region of 300-500$ (plus 50-100$ for painting/modeling supplies), period. If you feel like plinking around with tiny armies, that is great; but you're going to have a hell of a hard time finding many games. Minimum army size to start should be at least 1000 points, if you want to play decent games that is.

A much better way to go about getting into the game, is to start up with a small force, with plans to add to it over time. If all you can afford is a small 500 point army for years, I can honestly think of many other things that your money would be better spent on.

It was brought up in an earlier thread dealing with price rises.

In 1999 the SM tactical box cost was $35 for ten medal dudes. Min. wage in the US was 4.75. You had to work 8 hours to get that box of marines.

In 2009 min. wage is $7.50 and the box of marines are plastic, much nicer looking and cost $35. So now you only have to work on average of 4.5 hours to get that same box of Marines which are actually better.

So GW might be raising their prices faster than inflation but for those of us in the USA at least assuming some poor schmuck has been working minimum wage the past 10 years (and that's a pretty crappy employee if the only raises he gets are the mandatory min. wage increase) it requires less work to afford the same thing.

If you are someone making $150,000+ per year and whine about GW prices here's a tip......sell one of your 3 BMW's. You don't stinking need 3 of them or move out of your $500,000 house and downgrade to a $200,000 house and use the money saved on mortgage payments to fund GW.

In general, the modern Space Marine range seems to have gotten a lot better over time, while prices have remained similar to what they were at the start of 3rd edition, or in some cases even dropped. Vehicles and characters are somewhat expensive, but the basic squads have gone up in quality and options while remaining at similar prices. Further, most characters can be converted through using plastic pieces-- GW obviously knows this, so their expensive and metal characters make up for it by generally being really good sculpts. I consider 2009 Space Marines to be almost an objectively better deal than 1998 Space Marines.

Fetterkey wrote:In general, the modern Space Marine range seems to have gotten a lot better over time, while prices have remained similar to what they were at the start of 3rd edition,

They have increased, but when I went through the '04-'05 catalogue I have I was surprised to see the variance between 40K and WHFB armies. Namely, that on average WHFB models seemingly have been becoming a lot more expensive on average than 40K models. The reason for this is mostly because, while 40K models have been increasing, they also have been increasing the number of special weapon options in a box and thus limiting the number of side blisters / mail orders needed.

But Terminators are still $20 more than they once were. And Ork Dreads are almost as much more expensive.

or in some cases even dropped.

Maybe from 3rd Edition, but in the last 5 years they've still been at a rise. Grots are the only models I can think of for certain that haven't gone up in price.

Vehicles and characters are somewhat expensive, but the basic squads have gone up in quality and options while remaining at similar prices.

For the most part, they're about $5 more on a equal-model basis. In return, they have more special weapons. Again, Fantasy is the one that's been hit harder with stuff like shifts from 20 for $30 (or $35, now) to 10 for $22, but exactly zero option increases.

Two-Step wrote:Why shouldn't GW raise their prices. After all, they have to pay their employees, just like every other business. Folks want higher pay and better benefits... that money has to come from someplace.

Come off it. No one says GW shouldn't ever raise prices, but putting forward staff pay as a significant factor? Rubbish. The speed at which GW prices have gone up does not reflect wage increases, if anything as a company grows they should get the benefit of economy of scale where things like staff sickness and the like don't hit them as hard as a small business. Price increases are simply because the bean counters are trying to squeeze an ever greater amount of money from the product. It's not to do with meeting inflation or anything like that, what twaddle.

I can't help feeling GW have painted themselves into a corner on this one, the more they charge the less volume they ultimately sell, meaning they have to push the price up more in order to reap the same profits from the remaining customer base. Obviously there's a complex system of economics behind this, the numbers of stores opening and the extra customers reached is offset by additional taxes, employee payment and the like. But I can't help feeling that there's an element of diminishing returns, they could open a lot more stores and charge a lot more money, but ultimately the profit isn't drastically improved. GW have got their head down with increasing prices, it ultimately cannot go on forever but no onein charge seems to be ready to make a change of tack. I personally can't see how much they can continue to raise prices, what next for a box of 10 Space Marines, £25, £30?

Why shouldn't GW raise their prices? Well, umm because we don't like it? And I mean more than don't like it, no one finds the costs of things going up a pleasant experiance, it's the perceived unreasonableness of increases that annoy. We as customers have a right to express our opinions. GW can raise the prices whenever they like and however much they want, it doesn't mean we have to like it and it doesn't mean they are wise to make such increases, even though they have the power to do so.

Wrexasaur wrote:

Two-Step wrote:My recommendation is "Don't let the higher prices or the possibility of higher prices turn you from GW." If you feel that a 2k point army is out of your budget, think smaller. Even tough I always maintained a 2K army or two, I also took part in my fair share of 500pt, kill team and "pit" games. While not necessarily GW sanctioned, they can be every bit as much fun as fielding a full 2000+ point army.

Why? Unless you are satisfied by playing WH40k in it's most limited form, that is a lame excuse to buy GW products.

For persons first army, they can expect to drop in the region of 300-500$ (plus 50-100$ for painting/modeling supplies), period. If you feel like plinking around with tiny armies, that is great; but you're going to have a hell of a hard time finding many games. Minimum army size to start should be at least 1000 points, if you want to play decent games that is.

A much better way to go about getting into the game, is to start up with a small force, with plans to add to it over time. If all you can afford is a small 500 point army for years, I can honestly think of many other things that your money would be better spent on.

If you are able to afford to drop $300 -$500 on a first army and have never even played before, then good on you. But, not everyone can afford to do as such. If you think that you have to have a full on 2000+ point army to have fun, then go for it, but don't think for a second that it is necessary.

Not everyone lives in the lap of luxury and not everyone has so much money that they can drop that kind of money. Some people are lucky enough to have a mommy and daddy that has noting better to do with their money than to spoil their ungrateful brats. But, for the rest uf us, we realize that a full-on army will cost 40+ hours of hard manual labour... and that is for the bare basic 40K army. Even GW recognizes this fact of life.

If you take a look in the 4th edition 40K, there where Kill team rules. In the 5th edition RB, it mentions forming armies as small as 500 points. They even mention how much fun one can have with smaller armies. But, what do they know, they know... they just created the entire freaking system and line of models. Oh, and they are the ones who suggested it.

Even as a kid I had to pay for my own hobbies. I didn't get my money from my money bag mommy and daddy. In fact, there where times that they where borrowing from me in order to pay the bills. And all of tat was before the wonderful world wide recession that we are in now. When I was a kid I has an actual, honest to goodness job working on a horse ranch and delivering a news paper every day before school. But, jobs are harder to come by now...

BTW, unless it is a sanctioned game, you don't absolutely have to play with all GW miniatures. I happen to keep my force 100% GW because that is what I personally like. In fact, there are still plenty of folks that use paper cut-out figures. It is a great way to have a "test army" or to see if you actually want to play. Personally, all of my Grey Knights and Eldar or 100% GW figures and each army consists of 2000+ points. I also have a couple of smaller armies and am looking at building a full-on Tyranid army. But, I still like to "get back to basics" with a simple 500 point army and the occasional "pit fight".

Again, don't let the prices turn you off from playing, just think smaller. If the spoiled rich kids don't like it then find new friends. I am sure that there are plenty of people who would be more than happy to play 500 - 1000 points and simply start building larger from there. After all, if it was good enough for GW to put in their rule book, then it should be good enough for anyone else. Don't worry about what the spoiled rich kids are doing unless you are more worried about impressing them with how much money you can spend and still be a newb.

Fetterkey wrote:In general, the modern Space Marine range seems to have gotten a lot better over time, while prices have remained similar to what they were at the start of 3rd edition, or in some cases even dropped.

How do you figure that? When 3rd edition was released the 10 Space Marine box set was £10. Now it's £20, even adjusting for inflation that is not remotely "similar".

Minsc wrote:

Two-Step wrote:Why shouldn't GW raise their prices.

Of all the things I've asked in this thread, I'm still waiting for an explanation why an army with absolutely no model changes in the last five years (Longer than that, actually: Since the last O&G army book) costs a full 50% / $140 more now than it did five years ago.

I'm still waiting for an answer.

EDIT: The reason Fantasy Players need a 2000+ point army is because, unlike 40K, they're being deprived force organization choices. 40K you can take 2 HQ's, 3 Elite / Fast Attack / Heavy Support, and 6 Troops at 200pts, you can take that at 3000pts. In WHFB, you cannot use your Lord characters until 2,000pts. Some War Machines / Units take up multiple force organization slots, and similarly cannot be used until higher point levels. Sure, you can make a bunch of under-2K lists, but don't be surprised if you only get to use them against newbies or during the once-in-a-blue-moon Mordheim / Warbands campaigns.

The simplest answer is "Because they can".
The long answer would take a study in economics to understand. But to explain it in simple terms: When a business's expenses increase, such as for; employee pay and benefits, fuel, packaging, marketing, R&D, Etc.., those costs are passed on to the end consumer. That means higher prices, even on older models of a product. That is the cost of living in a capitalist society, where no matter how much you have, it is never enough.

The reason that the price is so drastic for older models is to keep them similar in price as the newer models. Also, while they are not paying the sculptor or for new molds and machinery, they still have to pay for all the other stuff, just like the brand new models.

I know that this doesn't explain it all, but maybe it helps ...

Fateweaver wrote:It was brought up in an earlier thread dealing with price rises.

In 1999 the SM tactical box cost was $35 for ten medal dudes. Min. wage in the US was 4.75. You had to work 8 hours to get that box of marines....

I got into 40k in early 2000. I could buy a box of 10 plastic 3rd edition SMs for $25 US. A similar box of 10 plastic SMs now costs $35 US.

Also note that just looking at wage increase in min wage is too selective. Other prices such as housing, groceries, gas, etc. need to be considered. If you don't have that x number of hours of labor left over for discretionary spending because it's eaten up by higher priced need expenses then it impacts the comparison a great deal. Just saying.

First of all, I pay sales tax at both the state and federal level. That means that a $9.00 magazine cost me about $10.00. The Government is tacking on the extra dollar, not the retailer.But, that is still TEN DOLLARS OUT OF MY POCKET.

And did the 5.00 you quoted also include sales tax? You were comparing prices. You need to compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges. WD costs 9.00.

Second, the retailer I am talking about has to stock certain items, even the ones that are not popular or don't sale. Granted, it may just be that he has a douchebag sales rep. If that is the case, then it is the same douchebag sales rep that many other retailers have and the same douchebag sales rep that I talked to a few years ago when I thought about selling GW products. If it isn't true, as you say, then why do so many smaller shops buying from GW say the exact same thing and why was I told the very same thing a few years ago? Are you saying that GW has a douchebag sales rep, who is just trying to bump his numbers?

No, you're making up garbarge here. I'm telling you that any store can call up GW, open a direct account with them, and stock whatever they like. Period. Been that way for years. It's in their terms of sales.

Third, What hurts retailers is stocking items that don't sale. For example, if Lord of the Rings does not sale( the case here), yet they have to carry the line in order to remain "GW authorized", then they are being hurt. If nobody is interested in a product line it won't sale... no matter how much or little of it a shop has.

And they don't have to sell LOTR. No such thing as "GW authorized". You either have an account with GW, or you don't. You do not need to order LOTR to have an account with GW. If you want free shipping, you need to carry LOTR plastic boxes. This also gets you 600.00 in free product a year. You could become a stockist, order the LOTR, get 600.00 of 40k, and toss the LOTR in your basement.

Fourth, every retailer deserves the same support as any other, no matter how big or small. I find it interesting that you don't think so and said as much in your post. You almost sound like a sales rep trying to bump numbers, instead of an actual GW customer and fan. But, surely that can't be the case, not after your "waaah" remark about smaller shops carrying what they don't want, in order to keep their "GW authorization" or what ever it is called.

Your right, I absolutely don't think so. And I've gotten sick of hearing it over the years. You get support based mostly on the work you do to support GW. It shouldn't be the same for all stores, but the ones who don't get as much from GW seem to have their hands out demanding it every chance they get. In this case, the deal is "Stock all 3 lines of product, get free shipping with no minimum". And I've heard lots of small stores gripe about it. They want the benefit without qualifying for it.

Sure, every store deserves some support. But if one store is selling 200.00 a month in GW, and another is selling 20,000.00 a month, you really think GW should give them equal support? To sell more GW, a store uses more wall/floor space, ties up more inventory, needs staff better trained to sell the product, and needs to run more events and intro games. And that's why they get more support.

A store that runs tournaments gets prize support. Don't run events, or don't ask for the support, they don't get it. A store that runs a lot of events can get more than 600.00 a year. Partnership level stores get 1800.00 a year. Some stores get more than that, based on running a large number of events. Same thing for some big independent events. Adepticon gets a lot more than any other event. Will you be pissed that Adepticon gets more support than a 10 person RTT?


Remember, the larges retail chain in the world started off as a small general store in a little towe, in Arkansas. While a hobby shop may not have quite the same success, it is they that keeps GW in business. Sure, folks can buy directly through GW or through a web site, but it is the local retailer that is providing a place to play. If they don't get the same support as larger shops, then the small retailer may have to stop carrying the product, thus causing many folks to have no where to play and no reason to buy further GW products. I know... it happened where I live and only now is the GW community staring to build momentum.

Store does work, runs events, carries product = Gets support. Store doesn't do anything = no support. Simple.

Your information is flawed, and incorrect. You base it on knowing someone who once ran a store, and a phonecall to GW. Mine comes from dealing with GW several times a week, and running game stores for 22 years.

But hey, were all equal here on the internet, so keep believing what you want, i know I won't change any of what you 'know' about GW terms of business.

Two-Step wrote:Again, don't let the prices turn you off from playing, just think smaller. If the (less generalizations, more substance) other players don't like it then find new friends. I am sure that there are plenty of people who would be more than happy to play 500 - 1000 points and simply start building larger from there.

Ignoring the flamey goodness strewn throughout the rest of your post, this is basically what I said earlier.

Don't expect people to be happy to have small games with you constantly. No one is talking about apocalypse here, and a lot of players don't even care if you get around to painting your army. I started out playing games that were quite small, but almost everyone I played with had no interest in such small games. Working your way up to 1000 points will guarantee that more people will actually want to game with you, no hard feelings either way of course; it is their time as well though. A lot of people travel very far to game, and they would like to play with larger armies because that is basically their only interest to begin with.

If you are really low on funds, WH40k may not be the game for you overall. There are plenty of games that focus on skirmish style combat, and thus require much less investment in models. Not all gamers have more than one army, but most actually do. 2000 points per army, mainly for flexibility for smaller games, means you can play in nearly every competition and most players want 1500-2000 point games anyway.

Aduro wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:You nerf-herders can go on guessing if you like

::punch:: You people can't use that word! That's OUR word!

Hell yeah, You my nerf-herder!


Aaaaah Family Guy..... So funny.

On a more serious note, I was wondering: what the heck does minimum wage have to do with anything Fateweaver? I mean, 40k is an expensive hobby. If someone doesn't value it enough to shell out a day's salary for a Tactical Squad (you really shouldn't, 'cause most things are much more important), just don't buy them! It's not like it's GW's job to make their merchandise available to minimum-wage-earners because they'd never make any money. Nobody is complaining that the prices of video games or model cars are too high, "Why?", cause people accept that those things are expensive. Why can't we all just accept that GW is an expensive hobby too?

So, I just got in the Trade Order Form that goes through the next 3 months. No price increase that I can see.

So, I just got in the Trade Order Form that goes through the next 3 months. No price increase that I can see.

Thanks for sharing that, thereby proving once again that only on a 40K forum could we get an 8-page long discussion on a completely unsubstantiated rumor with not a single grain of truth in it. And even with the provided documentation that the rumor appears to be untrue there will probably be several more pages of discussion and general complaint about GW prices anyway. Happy New Year.

Fateweaver wrote:It was brought up in an earlier thread dealing with price rises.

In 1999 the SM tactical box cost was $35 for ten medal dudes. Min. wage in the US was 4.75. You had to work 8 hours to get that box of marines.

In 2009 min. wage is $7.50 and the box of marines are plastic, much nicer looking and cost $35. So now you only have to work on average of 4.5 hours to get that same box of Marines which are actually better.

how about we compare something more similar like plastics to plastics. except for a better special/heavy weapons sprue, you're getting the exact same 10 plastic marines now for $35 that you were in 1998 (IIRC they came out in 1998 in concert with 3rd edition) for $20. so, using your minimum wage numbers you had to work 4.2 hours back then at full retail price and 4.6 now. the analysis is different when you compare apples to apples and that's not even including the MUCH better routine discounts online stores gave back then (35% off)...

I agree , we need to compare same materials.
Its not that i like to nit pick how GW sell their stuff , but when the stuff they say doesnt make sense , its funny.

Remember how they say metal prices are going up while plastic should cheaper? It didnt happen at all , just saying GW isnt trust worthy with their own words.

privateer4hire wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:It was brought up in an earlier thread dealing with price rises.

In 1999 the SM tactical box cost was $35 for ten medal dudes. Min. wage in the US was 4.75. You had to work 8 hours to get that box of marines....

I got into 40k in early 2000. I could buy a box of 10 plastic 3rd edition SMs for $25 US. A similar box of 10 plastic SMs now costs $35 US.

Also note that just looking at wage increase in min wage is too selective. Other prices such as housing, groceries, gas, etc. need to be considered. If you don't have that x number of hours of labor left over for discretionary spending because it's eaten up by higher priced need expenses then it impacts the comparison a great deal. Just saying.

Not even remotely similar, actually.

Part of that price increase is the addition of several sprue changes, things like more weapons options, more decorative things like the scrollwork or the reliquaries for the Sergeant's backpack.

The 3rd edition SMs had, at most, ML/Flamer and some purity seals.

Just play Warmachines or hordes, necromunda, or Epic, you don't need that many minis to play a respectably sized game.

If you see local games of epic then you will see...

What's the point of epic if you don't have tons of stuff all over the board?) We used to play with huge armies, and that was what made it different from 40k. Apocalypse fills the void now.

Necromunda is a good example though, of a game with very few miniature needs.

Hordes and Warmachine aren't. They start small, and then the average person ends up with 400-700 of a faction, and then starts another.