No one wants it, no one needs it but we're gonna get Codex Blood Angels. So what can we reasonably expect kit-wise?

OK a BA infantry box with blood drop shoulder pads, angels on the calves and probably some Super Black Red X marine bitz.

Recut Predator tank with the twin Donkey Cannon option.

Re-done razorback with all codex options?

And the usual sprinkle of special characters.

Anything else likely?

maybe new DC

Kid_Kyoto wrote:More marines waaaaaaah

I'd say at the very least in terms of kits:

-Power Armored set that can double for a Death Company box set, and can be combined with an Assault Squad box to make, well, Assault Marines

-Terminator box

-Baal Predator box or a recut of the Predator box to allow 2xAssault Cannons

-Maybe either a Furioso kit or a recut of the Dread kit to allow a second DCCW

As for characters, I can see them keeping Dante, Corbulo, and maybe even Tycho as they are, but Mephiston is starting to show his age and Lemartes is just, well, bad, but realistically I'm expecting only Lemmy to get a resculpt if any.

I figure something akin to the Dark Angels veteran sprue. Something with bits for both tactical and terminator marines, and possibly a vehicle upgrade sprue like the Black Templars have. Really, all I can see them getting is doors and the options for the Baal Predator. I don't see them being quite as big a release as the Wolves, since I don't recall them ever being quite as popular an army.

I figure those two sprues, a new metal Sanguinary High Priest, a resculpt of an old character and two new metal characters and we're all set.

Im guessing a new type of Jump pack assault marine with wings on it.

A chapter upgrade pack like the Templars, puppies and drag queens have would be awesome.

Would be cool if Moriar was brought back in the codex and could optionally be built with the Furioso kit.

It's probably too much to ask for a similar setup to space wolves and DA: taking all termies. It would make me love my space hulk terminators so much more.

Nobody want it??? Why I otta....

If we take a page from the SW, DA, and BT we can expect about 3 kits + heroes.

Usually most of those kits focuses around special units for the chapter and my guess is this time it will be Veteran Assaulters and Death Company.

Well have a spue of various bits to make BA troopers/leaders stand out.

Hopefully a couple of new heroes so the Chapter Master doesn't have to come out every time the BA want to set fire to someone's barn.

I bet anything we will see Space hulk termies as there termies( makes since) Since there blood angels already or alot of bits from that spure....

Pretty much.

-Updated Predator kit to include Baal pattern
-BA Marine kit in a similar fashion to the SW kit to be used as stand alone or in conjunction with other SM kits
-a few updated metal IC's
-??updated Dreadnought kit to allow the Moriar pattern??

I want it. Not for the Blood angels but for the fact that you could be able to take an all assault marine force.

I bet they'll just make an upgrade kkit like for DA and maybe a plastic Death Company Box, as well as new heros ect.

StarGate wrote:I bet anything we will see Space hulk termies as there termies( makes since) Since there blood angels already or alot of bits from that spure....

My internal grammar-nazi is screaming his head off.

ten man box akin to the new space wolves with death company, blood angel and possibly successor chapter symbols to stick onto some unmarked shoulder pads, lots of blood angel adorned bits, possibly blood angels jump packs in it.

baal predator,

furusio dreadnaught,

new honour guard??????,

battleforce box with new blood angels, scouts and a veichle,

new characters,

new 'overpowered' codex.

I just had a strange thought of terminator Death Company. Weird, but could be good. Anyway, I think the sets would be like Space Wolves or Dark Angels. A squad or two, chapter upgrades etc.

Upgrade sprue, Honour Guard boxed set, maybe a redone Baal Predator, Death Company boxed set, redone characters and hopefully an all-plastic Furioso

Surely Space Marines riding Giant Bats, right?

Seriously though, I *hope* we get a redone Razorback Box set, but I'm not sure we will.

And the Space Hulk terminators, while nice, are far too varied in their kit to get released as a box set for BA, unless they drastically change the rules/options for BA termies...

Steelmage99 wrote:

StarGate wrote:I bet anything we will see Space hulk termies as there termies( makes since) Since there blood angels already or alot of bits from that spure....

My internal grammar-nazi is screaming his head off.

Just chew it down ......

Kid_Kyoto wrote:No one wants it, no one needs it but we're gonna get Codex Blood Angels. So what can we reasonably expect kit-wise?

OK a BA infantry box with blood drop shoulder pads, angels on the calves and probably some Super Black Red X marine bitz.

Recut Predator tank with the twin Donkey Cannon option.

Re-done razorback with all codex options?

And the usual sprinkle of special characters.

Anything else likely?

Sounds likely enough.

Maybe something terminator related too...

..and... and I'm really not too sure here.. maybe another vehicle too.

If so it might go some way to explaining "recent" and ongoing ideas to do with certain large scale plastic kits.

If by large scale plastic kits you mean Thunderhawks, well, we aren't actually suggesting there would be rules for fielding them in 'normal' games of 40K are we? Surely it's gotta be Apocalypse only, right?

Plastic Baneblade is for Apoc. only, I'd imagine a plastic Thunderhawk, if such a thing existed which it doesn't and won't for quite some time IMO, would also be apoc. only I would think/hope.

Everybody want BA, Only people who are in denial dont want a marine army.

Ba are very popular and have been for a long time.

I hope they get everything the SW did but un BA version (minus the giant bats)

So, by large plastic kit you mean a new Land Raider variant?

The Crippler wrote:So, by large plastic kit you mean a new Land Raider variant?

No.

It seems that won't be a special Temie Kits, since the terminators did not played an important role in previous BA codexes.

Persephone 66 wrote:Would be cool if Moriar was brought back in the codex and could optionally be built with the Furioso kit.

I made Moriar recently, using an Ironclad box. Don't add the extra Ironclad parts. For the DCCWs, I used the Power Fist and the Chainfist, but I could change the arms anytime I wanted through a Bitz site. Another guy at my GW made a Furioso from 2 Ironclad boxes (two Chainfists, which currently are just DCCWs for BA). Expensive way to do it, mind. Remember, in the Ironclad set you get Moriar's Heavy Flamer and Meltagun too. Obviously, he just gets used as a Death Company Furioso though, and I'd love to see him re-added. Hell, he is mentioned in the PDF on the Furioso page so it annoyed me he wasn't included.

As for what I think BA could get:
- New character sculpts: Lemartes NEEDS this. Mephiston, Tycho and Corbulo are also looking very old. Dante isn't too bad.
- Upgrade sprues, whether distributed like Crimson Fists Bitz packs or a full-blown set, like Dark Angels.
- Additions to the Predator box to make a Baal a viable option.
- Veteran Assault Squads? The Vanguard set doesn't work for this, as there's too many special weapons. Currently I have to buy all the Bitz separately to make these, which isn't cheap.
- Possibly a plastic Furioso?

I think that's all we'd have a chance of getting. Can't wait for whatever gets announced, I've always been a big BA player.

I would HOPE but not guess the following.

Blood Angels in Power Armor (a la the SW set, with BA themed stuff for Tac, assault, dev, honor guard, JP Vets, death company, etc)

BA Vehicle sprue (assault cannons, extra dread power fist arm)

Characters, no new releases, just re-releases

and that's it. I really like that GW is consolidating ALL the PA marine releases for the non-smurf codices into one PA box, and maybe one Termie box. BA don't really need the termie box, so I'd suggest the cehicle sprue instead.

GW need time to observe the popularity of products.

A box of new uprade kits would be (definitely) welcomed and purchased by BA players. But a new Furioso kits may have different situation. The sales would possibly influenced by rules and other reasons.

Count Chiroptera Bloodborn riding a Bloodbat. Makes Giant Bats and Cyberbats Troops.

Maybe a new Assault Squad with Honour Gaurd and Death Company bitz.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:No one wants it, no one needs it but we're gonna get Codex Blood Angels. So what can we reasonably expect kit-wise?

Well it's not that they dont need it or no-one wants it, its just others need/want it more. Namely Necrons etc.

Anyways, as has been said, I'd expect:

- Blood Angel Infantry Sprue, much like the Space Wolf one (except maybe to integrate with, rather than replace the tactical marine box), which will include a smattering of shoulder pads, chest plates, weapons and special weapons (veterans) and the like.

- Predator upgrade, or entirely new predator kit including Baal options

- Furioso Kit. This may well be done by forgeworld instead however. I'd imagine a FW blood angels dreadnought to be almost certain too.

- Death Company sprue - maybe an entirely new plastic boxed set, or upgrades on the Blood Angel Infantry sprue.

- Special Characters - Definately Lemartes.

- I wouldn't however expect a new Terminator Sprue or terminators as troops via special character (maybe Dante will allow Vet. Assault squads as troops instead?!). New terminator plastics arent really needed, particually not when GW can sell the current one for £25.

Just Dave wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:No one wants it, no one needs it but we're gonna get Codex Blood Angels. So what can we reasonably expect kit-wise?

Well it's not that they dont need it or no-one wants it, its just others need/want it more. Namely Necrons etc.

Yes exactly. I meant to say no one thinks this needs to come out before the Inquisition, Necrons, Adeptus Mech or Squats get their codexi.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Just Dave wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:No one wants it, no one needs it but we're gonna get Codex Blood Angels. So what can we reasonably expect kit-wise?

Well it's not that they dont need it or no-one wants it, its just others need/want it more. Namely Necrons etc.

Yes exactly. I meant to say no one thinks this needs to come out before the Inquisition, Necrons, Adeptus Mech or Squats get their codexi.

Completely agree with you (except Squats and Ad' Mech anyway, but each to their own), others need it A LOT more.

Although you seem to have misspelt 'Dark Eldar'? (yes I know your feelings about them)

Huh? Dark Eldar have a free-standing codex. In fact they almost tabled my 'zerkers no too long ago.

DH and WH have books that point to out of print Marine and Guard books.

Oh yeah, Dark Eldar are competitive, I'm not going to deny that and that is why I think other, newer, codices should be prioritised before them. But they are still oh-so-very-old and their players desperately want a new codex (understandably).

It is, as we've said, Necrons, DH and WH's that need a new Codex most.

Anyways we're straying off topic. *Ahem* "I love blood angels"

Just for KK, I hope the release schedule is Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, and then Black Templars.

I need it KK.
I want it too.

FWIW if I was doing it (and in all trying to be realistic and sensible remembering the stuff needs stocking in stores and cross use across various armies is best)...

Recut predator sprue with Baal parts added and better sponsons.

BA kit- Can be used to make honour guard, veterans, death company, termi pads, and lots of BA moulded shoulder pads (I'm sick of buying metal ones)

Recut Dread with the right arm and weapon options for furioso added.

Characters- 5-6 blisters/boxes

Lastly.... Assauly marines.
An army based around assault marines needs to sell lots of assault marines. Not sure what I'd add to the current kit though.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Just Dave wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:No one wants it, no one needs it but we're gonna get Codex Blood Angels. So what can we reasonably expect kit-wise?

Well it's not that they dont need it or no-one wants it, its just others need/want it more. Namely Necrons etc.

Yes exactly. I meant to say no one thinks this needs to come out before the Inquisition, Necrons, Adeptus Mech or Squats get their codexi.

The way you phrased it, the only thing that doesn't make it trolling is that everyone knows you have an established place in the community. If someone who had never posted anything here before had posted the exact same message they'd have likely be thrown out. Blood angels have a place. A craptastic WD update doesn't count. And only sales can speak for anyone "wanting" them.

Back to speculation...
Baal Predator, I think it will be a single sprue with all the baal predator bits. It won't build off the current predator kit, but a self contained single sprue; likely with new options.
Furioso/Moriar, in a similar fashion will likely be a more self contained kit.
BA/Death Company will be taken care of similarly to the SW sprue.
Honour Guard will be an all metal boxset.
Dante will get a resculpt
Lemartes will get a resculpt
Blood Angels will likely get a Vanguard like elite choice these will also be an all metal boxset.

Well considering that they "DO NOT" have a codex, but a gakky .pdf goes to say that they actually do need a codex. Of course any race could use an update before they do, but why not finally release a Blood Angels codex to get it out of the way? I am sure enough that at some point in time this race needed an update and before that, that race needed an update. I used to have Necrons, I know they need an update but if I was still playing them I would hold off so that another army actually had a codex they could hold.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, as for kits I would like to see Baal predator, actual blood angel sprues to tell a clear difference from that marine to the next.

Re-done death company models.

Actual kits? A BA upgrade sprue (along the lines of DA) would seem incredibly sensible - maybe even a vehicle upgrade sprue and a infantry upgrade sprue - but I'm not expecting any other plastics. Just a whole pile of metal doodads... :(

BA Termies from Space Hulk,
character models in plastic, resculpted Dante and Corbulo,
Furioso in plastic,
Rhino upgrade for overcharged engines.

The way you phrased it, the only thing that doesn't make it trolling is that everyone knows you have an established place in the community. If someone who had never posted anything here before had posted the exact same message they'd have likely be thrown out. Blood angels have a place. A craptastic WD update doesn't count. And only sales can speak for anyone "wanting" them.

Hmm, a bit harsh but valid. And really there's nothing wrong with it, I've been posting on this board and it's predecessors off and on since 2000 so yeah, I kind of think people can tell the difference between a humorous exaggeration and trolling.

And I've always said I liked the Adeptes Astres solution GW had in the early 2000s, give each marine chapter a few pages of special rules, characters and wargear and keep the release slots free for real armies rather than sub-factions.

wuestenfux wrote:
1) BA Termies from Space Hulk,
2) character models in plastic, resculpted Dante and Corbulo,
3) Furioso in plastic,
4) Rhino upgrade for overcharged engines.

1) Unlikely, as noted before, unless they're seriously changing the rules for BA Termi weapon loadouts
2) Special Character Models in plastic? Again, unlikely. Metal? Possibly.
3) Maybe via a 'vehicle add on sprue', but since BA's are the only chapter to feature the twin DCCW (other than an Ironclad)...
4) Again, possibly on a 'vehicle add on sprue'

I think we'll see something closer to what the SW codex brought us...

I guess we should hope that as the BAs have always had a bit of the 'Noble Vampire' trope around them that they won't take inspiration from Twilight?

Balance wrote:I guess we should hope that as the BAs have always had a bit of the 'Noble Vampire' trope around them that they won't take inspiration from Twilight?

Enter the 'Gliterati'.

Bunch of bat wielding, emoesque tryhards.

*Looks to left at my ranking*

Balance wrote:I guess we should hope that as the BAs have always had a bit of the 'Noble Vampire' trope around them that they won't take inspiration from Twilight?

We should definitely hope so!

Thankfully, the Twilight "saga" skews towards a different demographic...

BA officers have always worn gold armor.

Good point!

I guess "Twilight" should expect their C&D any day now!

Kid_Kyoto wrote:And I've always said I liked the Adeptes Astres solution GW had in the early 2000s, give each marine chapter a few pages of special rules, characters and wargear and keep the release slots free for real armies rather than sub-factions.

Define "real" army, KK. One you like? One that isn't a SM army?

I bet GW defines a "real" army as one that SELLS and makes back the investment within a quarter. And I bet the BA do that. Moreso than some of the armies you consider "real".

LIke i said there going too use the termies from Space hulk as the new blood angels termies watch....

Kid_Kyoto wrote:No one wants it, no one needs it but we're gonna get Codex Blood Angels. So what can we reasonably expect kit-wise?

OK a BA infantry box with blood drop shoulder pads, angels on the calves and probably some Super Black Red X marine bitz.

Recut Predator tank with the twin Donkey Cannon option.

Re-done razorback with all codex options?

And the usual sprinkle of special characters.

Anything else likely?

If I were to guess, I'd say that a single infantry box is right on. It follows the standard of the wolf box well. It would contain a whole bunch of blood doo-dads, along with the deathco bits. (As stated above)

The Recut of those vehicles for the BA does not seem likely to me. More likely is the recut of the vehicles to be released at the same time as the BA 'dex. I would guess that either included in the BA upgrade pack (a la BT) or available in a separate box will be the fixings required for Furioso Dreads, and Baal Preds. Along with that are sets of doors and the standard goodies.

Characters I predict for new blisters:
Corbulo
Lemartes
Mephiston
Possible new guy

In terms of BT being unwanted, I disagree, but it's also easy for a non marine player (such as myself) to look at all the divergent chapters as different colored marines, rather than specific armies with different rules.

dienekes96 wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:And I've always said I liked the Adeptes Astres solution GW had in the early 2000s, give each marine chapter a few pages of special rules, characters and wargear and keep the release slots free for real armies rather than sub-factions.

Define "real" army, KK. One you like? One that isn't a SM army?

I bet GW defines a "real" army as one that SELLS and makes back the investment within a quarter. And I bet the BA do that. Moreso than some of the armies you consider "real".

Not a sub-faction.

Eldar=real army
Eldar painted black=sub-faction

It's hard to say sales justify who gets a codex since you can't really compare sales with a product that does not exist. There's been no new Daemon Hunter model since 2003, no plastics ever. How do you compare that with sales of... gimmie a sec... five marine books since then?

Besides, since Marines are the sales powerhouse then shouldn't GW putn out as many marine factions as they can? Shouldn't we go back to the model of the early 2000s where virtually every issue of WD had a trial army list? They could make a PDF similar to the BA one for every major chapter, along with a dozen IG regiments, the Chaos Legions, feral Orks, Craft Worlds... Each of which could stimulate sales of existing product lines without requiring much more investment than writing and playtesting (don't laugh).

Instead they limit themselves to what 3? 4? army lists a year. So yeah, a minor sub-faction of Space Marines taking up a whole slot for itself when other armies are 2 editions behind is annoying. I'd be just as irked if Genestealer Cults got a whole release but not Tyranids.

Blood Angels had a release in both 2nd and 3rd edition, well before DH or WH were even a sniff. There has been no new BA model (outside of last years SH release) since 1999. Four years earlier. So you might have your definition, for which the BA do not fit. but your definition is clearly NOT in line with the company that owns the IP.

BA didn't get a release in 4th, and had an earlier release (by 4 years) compared to DH/WH. SO they seem to be due. Regardless of how any customer defines "real" armies. But I appreciate your clarification.

As for sales, GW likely has numbers for everything they have ever released. They seem to think Marine sub-factions are worth full release schedules. Considering they are still in business while most of their competitors have long since bit the dust, they must be doing something right.

Index Astartes/Chapter Approved was a horrible marketing gimmick and I for one am glad to see it gone.

If nothing else, Fetterkey, it was a useful way of getting some background on chapters which had not had a focus on them before - how much about the Iron Hands had you seen prior to reading their Index Astartes article, for instance?

The background information provided in the Index Astartes articles was fairly useful, but I would have preferred if they had released the background material without the rules supplements.

Fetterkey wrote:Index Astartes/Chapter Approved was a horrible marketing gimmick and I for one am glad to see it gone.

Yeah, damn them for giving us information about the chapters! When I flipped to the 3 total pages of models in the entire book I really felt like I was being suffocated by advertisement.

aka_mythos wrote:
Blood Angels will likely get a Vanguard like elite choice these will also be an all metal boxset.

Yea, you could call those, hmmmm... Veteran Assaulters? It would be nice to have sculpts that have more ornamentation to them to set them apart from the other yellow helmeted assaulting units.

As for honor guard, they're going to need a redo on the unit size/organization to make it worth taking. Right now, it's just an easy kill point giveaway. Possibly a terminator upgrade if they're going to be REAL honor guards.

I'm talking about the White Dwarf articles, which were essentially a trick to make people buy needless supplements.

I'm hoping that with the models and fluff in the new dex that they are going to play up the creative and honorable nature of the BA instead of the half crazed vampiric nature that we've been seing lately. Although with the new space hulk minis and the Sgt's vampire fangs i don't think they're going to be going that route.

Fetterkey wrote:I'm talking about the White Dwarf articles, which were essentially a trick to make people buy needless supplements.

Alright, so WD is made up of two things: advertisement and useful content. If you are saying that the useful content is advertisement, then what does that make the advertisement? Chapter Approved was the least advertisementy thing WD ever had, AND if you were subcscribed to WD you basically didn't have to buy the supplement. I really don't think you understand what you're talking about.

BA sprues will be done either like the current SW sprues (infantry upgrade, terminator upgrade) or like the DA sprues (veteran upgrade, vehicle upgrade). Given the inclusion of Death Company and Baal predator, I'm leaning more toward the latter. Perhaps a command/bodyguard sprue but I'm not betting on that.

ph34r wrote:Alright, so WD is made up of two things: advertisement and useful content. If you are saying that the useful content is advertisement, then what does that make the advertisement?

The content wasn't advertisement per se, but rather a marketing trick to get people to buy more books/magazines. Fortunately, GW seems to have renounced that particular ploy. I think all the jokes and stuff finally caught up with them.

ph34r wrote:Chapter Approved was the least advertisementy thing WD ever had

I think the articles about converting your own terrain were less "advertisementy," personally.

ph34r wrote:If you were subcscribed to WD you basically didn't have to buy the supplement.

That's... not good? Having to choose between buying many issues of White Dwarf or buying a supplement that contained collected WD articles is pretty bad. You shouldn't have to buy anything besides the rulebook and Codices. To clarify, I'm not complaining about fluff being in White Dwarf, and in fact I support that. The issue is that official rules should not be provided in White Dwarf, unless they are freely distributed by some other means.

my $0.02 (a guess)... BA will get plastic kit for the death company that will include enough do-dads to make about 500 points of regular troops. There will also be a vehicle upgrade sprue to make the Baal pred and dread. Shelf space is the key for GW, which is why we've seen so many splash releases lately (stocked for release then direct only). Anything that combines with the smurf kits that they stock anyway is what they want. Look at space wolves... two plastic kits, a battle force and one boxed character and the rest are blisters or existing plastic kits.

So, first wave will be a kit for plastic death company/assault marines, plastic vehicle upgrades, a battleforce, some metal unique characters.

Fetterkey wrote:

ph34r wrote:Alright, so WD is made up of two things: advertisement and useful content. If you are saying that the useful content is advertisement, then what does that make the advertisement?

The content wasn't advertisement per se, but rather a marketing trick to get people to buy more books/magazines. Fortunately, GW seems to have renounced that particular ploy. I think all the jokes and stuff finally caught up with them.

ph34r wrote:Chapter Approved was the least advertisementy thing WD ever had

I think the articles about converting your own terrain were less "advertisementy," personally.

ph34r wrote:If you were subcscribed to WD you basically didn't have to buy the supplement.

That's... not good? Having to choose between buying many issues of White Dwarf or buying a supplement that contained collected WD articles is pretty bad. You shouldn't have to buy anything besides the rulebook and Codices. To clarify, I'm not complaining about fluff being in White Dwarf, and in fact I support that. The issue is that official rules should not be provided in White Dwarf, unless they are freely distributed by some other means.

I never heard any joke about Chapter Approved. Chapter Approved was one of the best things that GW ever did. Just because you loathe 3rd edition and all its variant lists does not mean that everyone hated chapter approved, or in fact any of the things that you are suggesting. The converting your own terrain articles most often included bits and pieces that transformed the terrain from "meh" to "good" that were found in GW kits. If I had to choose which is more free, from learning how to make terrain using GW plastic bits and rules that are 100% free, there really is no comparison.
The "you shouldn't have to buy anything besides the rulebook and codices" is not a universal view, the same as your silly view of "if it's [technically] in the game, do it".

dienekes96 wrote:I bet GW defines a "real" army as one that SELLS and makes back the investment within a quarter. And I bet the BA do that. Moreso than some of the armies you consider "real".

Translation:

"I'm a Space Marine player, and I think GW should just focus 100% on Space Marine releases instead of wasting their time on lame-ass armies (or even game systems) that no one buys anyway. MARINES!"

Sorry. It just gets frustrating seeing this brought up over and over though...honestly, would you be happy if they did nothing but Marines? Do you think that would be best for the company?

My guess....

A Death Company/Honour Guard box that is lik $30 USD for 5 Marines. With a bunch of stuff.
A regular Space Marine Tactical (Space Wolf style) box with options for Tac Marines and other stuff.
A plastic Baal Predator with an OC engine. Which can be used on Rhinos if you bits buy it from them or another site. Given some late GW plastic vehicle trends I think.


.........and maybe a Furioso pack.

One Hero redo (Mephiston) and they introduce new ones like Space Wolves.

Judging from what they have done before.

ph34r wrote:I never heard any joke about Chapter Approved.

There are TONS of jokes about TFG-types springing rules from "special supplements" and stuff on people.

ph34r wrote:Chapter Approved was one of the best things that GW ever did. Just because you loathe 3rd edition and all its variant lists does not mean that everyone hated chapter approved, or in fact any of the things that you are suggesting.

I like variant lists, or at least balanced variant lists, but not the business model that GW was using to distribute them. I don't loathe 3rd edition, but I, like most, think 5th edition is better.

ph34r wrote:The "you shouldn't have to buy anything besides the rulebook and codices" is not a universal view, the same as your silly view of "if it's [technically] in the game, do it".

Not sure what the second part is about, since it's both off-topic and false, at least as it pertains to 40k. "If it's in the game, it's legit" only works when the game itself is well-made. As for the first, I don't know anyone who would seriously advocate increasing barriers to entry and decreasing transparency. It's OK to be nostalgic, but Chapter Approved is dead and gone, and IMO losing it improved the state of 40k as whole.

thnk this thread should be in the discussions area not rumor or news xD

Fetterkey wrote:There are TONS of jokes about TFG-types springing rules from "special supplements" and stuff on people.

Yeah... that being just as much of a problem as not bringing ones codex and making up rules. 40k players are not incapable of bringing one more rulebook, and if you want to use a rule you bring the rulebook for it. Chapter approved was only a positive, and provided diversity. If your opponent is making up rules and claiming that they are in something, it shouldn't matter if that book is called "Chapter Approved" or "Codex XYZ Marines".

I like variant lists, or at least balanced variant lists, but not the business model that GW was using to distribute them. I don't loathe 3rd edition, but I, like most, think 5th edition is better.

A business model of "buy one more codex for dozens of optional rules or if you subscribe to a magazine get them for free"? I have no problems with this. What is wrong with this business model? Is it so much more than what is going on now, aka the exact same thing, but with less options, and without any possibility of getting rules for free? To me the possibility of getting something for free if you have a subscription or being given the option to just buy it normally is a good thing.

I don't know anyone who would seriously advocate increasing barriers to entry and decreasing transparency. It's OK to be nostalgic, but Chapter Approved is dead and gone, and IMO losing it improved the state of 40k as whole.

Thanks for making it so easy for me to show you how you are wrong: Chapter Approved was not a barrier to entry. It was optional and you could get along just fine without it. If you think that you have a valid argument in saying that Chapter Approved would decrease transparency too much, then I can just as easily say "Codex Blood Angels/Dark Angels/Space Wolves/Black Templars are too confusing and reduce transparency". So what is the key difference for you here? Both Chapter Approved and "Codex Series: rainbow of space marines" are books that contain variant rules for space marines. I suppose Chapter Approved also contained rules for non-SM armies, that must be a big no-no. And the models featured didn't always have models! How will we sell models that don't exist! [sarcasm] I for one agree with you, lets do away with anything that doesn't have a model and 2 month ad campaign tied to it! [/sarcasm]
Chapter Approved also had FAQs in it. For every army. I wonder, what decreases transparency more? Having variant armies that don't get their own codex, model range, and holiday? Or... not having FAQs.
In conclusion, Chapter Approved does not decrease transparency but rather creates transparency, and is no more of a barrier to entry than any other Codex, ever.

ph34r wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:There are TONS of jokes about TFG-types springing rules from "special supplements" and stuff on people.

Yeah... that being just as much of a problem as not bringing ones codex and making up rules. 40k players are not incapable of bringing one more rulebook, and if you want to use a rule you bring the rulebook for it. Chapter approved was only a positive, and provided diversity. If your opponent is making up rules and claiming that they are in something, it shouldn't matter if that book is called "Chapter Approved" or "Codex XYZ Marines".

Well, no, because TFG could in some cases actually be right. Besides, when that "book" is some random White Dwarf issue that your shop doesn't even carry, it can be difficult to verify what's going on.

ph34r wrote:A business model of "buy one more codex for dozens of optional rules or if you subscribe to a magazine get them for free"? I have no problems with this. What is wrong with this business model? Is it so much more than what is going on now, aka the exact same thing, but with less options, and without any possibility of getting rules for free? To me the possibility of getting something for free if you have a subscription or being given the option to just buy it normally is a good thing.

Index Astartes articles were often tournament-legal (the rules varied from event to event, which only adds to the confusion) and not at all free. Most people don't have subscriptions to White Dwarf; those that do aren't getting the information "for free," they're getting it as part of the price they paid for White Dwarf. People should have to buy as few books as possible. Ideally, there would only be one book, but as 3rd edition showed, that leads to insufficient detail. A pendulum swing then threw everything for a loop, with Imperial Armor books, campaign books, Chapter Approved material, Index Astartes material, and in some cases even Citadel Journal articles providing tons of confusing variants. This made it extremely difficult for someone to understand the rules or know the full range of options that were available, especially since the availability of some items varied from event to event and store to store. The current system is a decent balance between detail and confusion.

ph34r wrote:Chapter Approved was not a barrier to entry. It was optional and you could get along just fine without it.

Chapter Approved was a horrible mix of nonoptional errata, optional rules, and "recommended optional" rules. As mentioned before, different events used different rules, which led to further problems as to what was and wasn't optional. In any case, fundamental changes (Terminators getting their 5+ invulnerable saves, for example) were sometimes conveyed via Chapter Approved, which is obviously bad. In order to use Terminators "correctly," you would have had to have both Codex: Space Marines and a copy of the Chapter Approved article in question. This made Chapter Approved important even if you weren't using a variant list that relied on it, which only caused problems.

ph34r wrote:If you think that you have a valid argument in saying that Chapter Approved would decrease transparency too much, then I can just as easily say "Codex Blood Angels/Dark Angels/Space Wolves/Black Templars are too confusing and reduce transparency".

You would be correct in saying that. There are serious issues with having many Codices that can represent the same or similar units that have different stats, rules, etc. At the very least, all Space Marine codices should have equivalent wargear (Typhoon launchers, Cyclone launchers, storm shields, Apothecaries, etc.). Similarly, Inquisition Chimeras should be the same as IG Chimeras. The current system *is* confusing and reduces transparency, but the alternative (one big book) causes armies to be too similar. As mentioned earlier, the current system represents a balance from the early 3rd "one book only" blandness and the later "tons of supplements" craziness.

ph34r wrote:So what is the key difference for you here? Both Chapter Approved and "Codex Series: rainbow of space marines" are books that contain variant rules for space marines.

Codices don't require other books, aren't distributed throughout various issues of White Dwarf (with the exception of the "get you by" list for the Blood Angels, which is also distributed for free on the GW website and will thankfully be superseded soon), generally come in the form of highly visible splash releases, are universally accepted at tournaments (except the BoLSCon ally rules silliness), are practically guaranteed to be in stock at a shop if there's a dispute, etc. All these factors lead to people being generally familiar with all Codex lists, with the possible exception of the Dark Eldar. If I walk into a shop and ask "what about X army," there'll likely be someone there who will know what X plays like, if not someone who has played them before.

ph34r wrote:Chapter Approved also had FAQs in it. For every army. I wonder, what decreases transparency more? Having variant armies that don't get their own codex, model range, and holiday? Or... not having FAQs.

This argument is a blatant false dilemma. GW currently has FAQs and doesn't have Chapter Approved, which is, IMO, as it should be.

Fetterkey wrote:Well, no, because TFG could in some cases actually be right. Besides, when that "book" is some random White Dwarf issue that your shop doesn't even carry, it can be difficult to verify what's going on.

Right or wrong the burden of bringing rules is on the person that wants to use them. My previous statements still stand and you have not refuted them at all.

Index Astartes articles were often tournament-legal (the rules varied from event to event, which only adds to the confusion) and not at all free. Most people don't have subscriptions to White Dwarf; those that do aren't getting the information "for free," they're getting it as part of the price they paid for White Dwarf. People should have to buy as few books as possible. Ideally, there would only be one book, but as 3rd edition showed, that leads to insufficient detail. A pendulum swing then threw everything for a loop, with Imperial Armor books, campaign books, Chapter Approved material, Index Astartes material, and in some cases even Citadel Journal articles providing tons of confusing variants. This made it extremely difficult for someone to understand the rules or know the full range of options that were available, especially since the availability of some items varied from event to event and store to store. The current system is a decent balance between detail and confusion.

Who cares? Warhammer isn't for 5 year olds. The fact that you *might* want to use rules from something other than two books is not an issue.
If you *want* to use the rules then you *can*, in which case you *bring your rules*. Real. Simple. If you don't have white dwarf then you can buy the information for free. It is not the fault of variant books that tournaments had different rules (protip: every tournament has different rules). As for your next statement, I know you all too well and it is clear to me that you just wanted to use the phrase "Pendulum Swing" which does not apply at all in this situation.

Chapter Approved was a horrible mix of nonoptional errata, optional rules, and "recommended optional" rules. As mentioned before, different events used different rules, which led to further problems as to what was and wasn't optional. In any case, fundamental changes (Terminators getting their 5+ invulnerable saves, for example) were sometimes conveyed via Chapter Approved, which is obviously bad. In order to use Terminators "correctly," you would have had to have both Codex: Space Marines and a copy of the Chapter Approved article in question. This made Chapter Approved important even if you weren't using a variant list that relied on it, which only caused problems.

3rd edition was a huge change from 2nd. Erratas were necessary for the rules to work correctly. Oh boo hoo, they are non optional. Erratas and FAQs should not be optional. In any case, book updates were also available online with the FAQs, so if you just wanted updates for your book you did not need Chapter Approved.

You would be correct in saying that. There are serious issues with having many Codices that can represent the same or similar units that have different stats, rules, etc. At the very least, all Space Marine codices should have equivalent wargear (Typhoon launchers, Cyclone launchers, storm shields, Apothecaries, etc.). Similarly, Inquisition Chimeras should be the same as IG Chimeras. The current system *is* confusing and reduces transparency, but the alternative (one big book) causes armies to be too similar. As mentioned earlier, the current system represents a balance from the early 3rd "one book only" blandness and the later "tons of supplements" craziness.

Well yes, of course SM should have consistent wargear. It isn't too confusing though. I don't see the population up in arms about how complicated it is to have 5 books that all feature Space Marines.

Codices don't require other books, aren't distributed throughout various issues of White Dwarf (with the exception of the "get you by" list for the Blood Angels, which is also distributed for free on the GW website and will thankfully be superseded soon), generally come in the form of highly visible splash releases, are universally accepted at tournaments (except the BoLSCon ally rules silliness), are practically guaranteed to be in stock at a shop if there's a dispute, etc. All these factors lead to people being generally familiar with all Codex lists, with the possible exception of the Dark Eldar. If I walk into a shop and ask "what about X army," there'll likely be someone there who will know what X plays like, if not someone who has played them before.

If the current books had giant errors and problems with them they would require other books. Chapter Approved did not change Codexes for no reason, it changed them for a good reason: they needed fixing. Stop bringing up the "distributed through white dwarf oh god how will you ever track it down", as stores had recent issues of WD and non-recent issues were in books called... Chapter Approved. Having to buy a $25 book on top of a $40 book isn't bad at all, considering how long 3rd edition lasted and how much the 5e book costs. Who cares if a variant army is slightly less well known as a "core" army? That is not a bad thing.

This argument is a blatant false dilemma. GW currently has FAQs and doesn't have Chapter Approved, which is, IMO, as it should be.

Chapter Approved fixed books with errata and FAQs. Current GW FAQs are terrible and frequently don't fix issues. Sure, GW has FAQs, but GW says that they are optional, and even if they weren't optional they are insufficient, which is just terrible.

I'd be gutted if a new BA kit came out because ive just finished a complete battle company using the vanilla kits.
Mephiston could definitely do with a re-sculpt the model has been floating about in it's current form for about 15 years now.
A decent Death Company Dreadnought kit is needed as well as more options for the Death Company itself.
The BA haven't had a proper codex since codex angels of death for second edition. Looking forward to getting some more of their history back into the game.

Angels of Death isn't a proper codex, IMO. I'm thumbing through it right now, and rulewise it actually sucks. BA didn't have any chapter-specific rules at all. They had death company and 5 special characters, that's it. And in order to get the rules for those six entries you had to buy a 120 page book that also included codex DA.

But then again, the fluff rocked hard.

As for the Chapter Approved debate: 1. Get a hold of WD 255. 2. Open it on page 44. 3. Watch in awe as Pete Haines gives you 6 pages of advanced formulaes for creating Tyranid superheavies.

For me, this is what the hobby is about. The stuff you could make with these optional rules were horribly broken, but they served as a guideline for players' own creativity. The rules weren't meant for tournament play, but for fun.

CA also served as a creative ferment for GW itself - One of Haines example beasts is the Trygon, which didn't get a codex entry until now.

I know angels of death was a poor showing by way of rules but since then the only codex produced was a massive 25 pages with 0 history to the chapter within. After that the only thing to come out was the PDF version which again gave very few options no wargear and 0 history for a 1st founding chapter.

Agreed on the rules.

The PDF did three things right:
1. Make a new way of forming a DC unit that didn't piss off every other player.

2. Stopped making super charged engines = bombs. Good times that.

3. Assaulters as troops goes with the fluff of BA being a very assault oriented army.

However, it made the list horrible to play in many other ways.

1. Very few options- every unit started looking like every other unit. Since some of those options weren't worth the points you had even fewer choices. Some units had almost no options, making them completely dull.

2. VERY inflexible unit structure. You took either 5 or 10 man units. 10 man units kept heroes from being able to join mechanized units unless you were silly in running a half strengthed squad into battle. Some named characters can't take jump packs and were left with very few transport options. This same slowed 5/10 purchasing scheme made it hard to build a list you wanted because you'd find it very difficult to chop out points if you went over. Normally you could dump out 1-2 marines in a squad and be under your point cap, but here... no. You had to dump out an entire unit and take something you didn't want. Horrible.

3. No reason for dumping some chapter specific hero options like Sanquinary High Priests. They all evaporated for no reason. Yet magically the Sanquinary Priests from the Honor Guard were left in. Huh. It would be like Interigator Chaplins just being removed from the DA chapter and nothing said about it. Too bad I guess.

4. Taking away Furious Charge and not allowing it to be purchased back. What, did the whole chapter suddenly get tired? They didn't seem to have problems giving FC to the orks, so I don't know why they didn't AT LEAST give an option to pay for it. If you've been know for something for years, it makes NO sense to just have it cut out.

5. 5 man terminator squads? Whatever. Again, an arbitrary change that wasn't based on chapter background that would lead to a shortage of Terminator Suits.

I could go on about saying that some units were absolutely not worth taking due to point costs, but I think every army has some of those, so I'll leave it at that.

I don't think DC will get a plastic kit. Any sort of elite choice is usually a metal option. Vanguard, Sternguard, Sword Brethren, Legion of the Damned, Veterans (DA or otherwise), etc. I think doubly so since it's chapter specific. Terminators and dreadnoughts buck this trend because they can be used across multiple chapters.

StarGate wrote:LIke i said there going too use the termies from Space hulk as the new blood angels termies watch....

Aaaargh!....

Moopy wrote:...
3. Assaulters as troops goes with the fluff of BA being a very assault oriented army.
...

I think this is likely to become something that is tied to a specific special character. Or in the very least something like "if the captain is equipped with a jump pack assault marine squads maybe taken as troops," type thing. I see it as being allowed but with the expectation that the theme permeates the list.

Moopy wrote:
I don't think DC will get a plastic kit. Any sort of elite choice is usually a metal option. Vanguard, Sternguard, Sword Brethren, Legion of the Damned, Veterans (DA or otherwise), etc. I think doubly so since it's chapter specific. Terminators and dreadnoughts buck this trend because they can be used across multiple chapters.

I think this will hinge on whether GW decides to do anything new with DC or BA elite choices. I think BA will recieve a Vanguard type elite unit, those will be metal. If GW has an elite unit like that they'll have little need to make DC metal. DC can easily be done like Dark Angel veterans as plastic add-ons from a basic BA sprue.

bhsman wrote:As for characters, I can see them keeping Dante, Corbulo, and maybe even Tycho as they are, but Mephiston is starting to show his age and Lemartes is just, well, bad, but realistically I'm expecting only Lemmy to get a resculpt if any.

Ragnar
Ulrik
Logan Grimnar
Abaddon
All the Phoenix Lords
Eldrad
The list goes on ...

Alpharius wrote:Surely Space Marines riding Giant Bats, right?

Great! I could use them for a Night Lords army. If they had rules.

reds8n wrote:Plastic Baneblade is for Apoc. only, I'd imagine a plastic Thunderhawk, if such a thing existed which it doesn't and won't for quite some time IMO, would also be apoc. only I would think/hope.

Red is usually right when it comes to this sort of thing so my response to this: damn. But I want one

ph34r wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Well, no, because TFG could in some cases actually be right. Besides, when that "book" is some random White Dwarf issue that your shop doesn't even carry, it can be difficult to verify what's going on.

Right or wrong the burden of bringing rules is on the person that wants to use them. My previous statements still stand and you have not refuted them at all.

Are we reading the same thread?

ph34r wrote:If you don't have white dwarf then you can buy the information for free.

What?

ph34r wrote:It is not the fault of variant books that tournaments had different rules (protip: every tournament has different rules).

Yes, but they shouldn't, and variant books contribute to that problem. Here are the sample rules from a tournament way back in the day-- this doesn't cover scoring, judging, or anything, just the basic rules that the game is played by:

• You must create an army of no more than 1,850 points with one Standard Force Organization Chart.
• Chapter Approved, Index Astartes, and Imperial Armour books will be in use with the following exceptions. Rules marked “Optional” or "Trial" will not be in use.
• Specific zone fighting rules will not be in effect - including Jungle fighting and City fighting.
• The following publications and articles will be in use:
• THE NEW ASSAULT RULES LOCATED IN CHAPTER APPROVED 2003 WILL BE USED IN THE TOURNAMENT.
• All released codices
• Chapter Approved Annual 2003 (except) the following articles:
Minor Psyker Powers
• The Chapter Approved Book (except) the following articles:
Fielding a Army of Death (Death Company army)
Imperial Guard Armoured Company
Of Roads, Craters and Other Things
Tyranid Monstrosities
Vehicle Design Rules
Necrons
• Index Astartes I & II
• Imperial Armour I & II except the following:
No super heavies
No flyers
• White Dwarf Articles:
248- Land Raider Crusader
261- Index Astartes, Iron Hands
263- Index Astartes, Ultramarines (Tyranid Hunter Squad)
269- Speed Freeks Warboss
273- Index Astartes, Salamanders
274- Chapter Approved, Priestly Delegations
274- Index Astartes, Raven Guard
275- Chapter Approved, Necron Q&A
275- Chapter Approved, The Cursed Founding
• Anything not mentioned or presented here is not legal for Tournament play.
• You may use Special Characters as long as they meet the specified requirements (i.e., you may not use a special character that is restricted to armies over 3,000 points or under 1,500 points if the tournament you are playing is using 1,700-point armies!).
•Chapter Approved rules clarifications and Q&A appearing in White Dwarf are in use.


Here are the sample rules from a modern tournament:

-Armies will consist of 1850 points using a standard force organization chart.
-The Warhammer 40,000 5th Edition Rules will be used.
-The AdeptiCon INAT FAQ will be used (Updated 03.19.09).
-All 40K Invitational army lists must follow the 40K Championships section of the AdeptiCon 2009 40K Army List rules. (read: all GW Codices are legal)
-Forge World/Imperial Armor units are not allowed in the 40K Invitational, however players may still use their Forge World models to represent a unit from their codex.
-Individual units that may have multiple rules versions will follow the rules presented in that army's codex. Yes, this means a Black Templar Land Raider will function differently than a standard -Space Marine Land Raider. Please take the time to review the relevant GW/Adepticon FAQ's for clarifications.
-Special/Unique/Named Characters may be fielded, provided their individual rules allow them to be used in armies of 1,850 pts or less.


It's fairly obvious which is less confusing.

ph34r wrote:As for your next statement, I know you all too well and it is clear to me that you just wanted to use the phrase "Pendulum Swing" which does not apply at all in this situation.

Actually, it does. At the start of 3rd edition, everything was so different from 2nd that all the army lists had to be revised, so every army (except Necrons) had a bare-bones army list at the back of the main rulebook. A lot of people (rightfully) complained, because those army lists were extremely sparse. GW then went too far in the other direction, releasing tons of variant lists, mini-Codices, etc. This shift from one extreme to another represents what is commonly referred to as "pendulum swing."

ph34r wrote:3rd edition was a huge change from 2nd. Erratas were necessary for the rules to work correctly. Oh boo hoo, they are non optional. Erratas and FAQs should not be optional. In any case, book updates were also available online with the FAQs, so if you just wanted updates for your book you did not need Chapter Approved.

The issue is not that the erratas/FAQs weren't optional, the issue is that nonoptional content was mixed in with optional content. The second part, re: updates being online, is only partially true at best. I'm pretty sure not everything was originally available online, since I distinctly remember finding out about Crux Terminatus through the original 3rd edition Chapter Approved compilation, but that was way back in the day and my memory isn't all that good. I do know, however, that I have the original Codex: Dark Eldar. When this Codex got revised, the new rules were published in Chapter Approved, and the Codex was then reprinted. People with the old version of Codex could either use that with the Chapter Approved article or get the new version. An update PDF was available for a time, but was later removed.

ph34r wrote:If the current books had giant errors and problems with them they would require other books. Chapter Approved did not change Codexes for no reason, it changed them for a good reason: they needed fixing. Stop bringing up the "distributed through white dwarf oh god how will you ever track it down", as stores had recent issues of WD and non-recent issues were in books called... Chapter Approved. Having to buy a $25 book on top of a $40 book isn't bad at all, considering how long 3rd edition lasted and how much the 5e book costs. Who cares if a variant army is slightly less well known as a "core" army? That is not a bad thing.

The 5th edition rulebook costs about 20 bucks, thanks to the glory that is Black Reach. This is a very good thing. Barriers to entry have never been lower, except during the bad old days of early 3rd, where the fact that you could know everything with one book was sadly negated by the fact that everything was pretty much the same.

Kveldulv wrote:As for the Chapter Approved debate: 1. Get a hold of WD 255. 2. Open it on page 44. 3. Watch in awe as Pete Haines gives you 6 pages of advanced formulaes for creating Tyranid superheavies.

For me, this is what the hobby is about. The stuff you could make with these optional rules were horribly broken, but they served as a guideline for players' own creativity. The rules weren't meant for tournament play, but for fun.

I liked all the crazy stuff in Chapter Approved (especially the VDR), but having that optional fun/silly content mixed in with nonoptional content is confusing and a bad idea from a design perspective.

Fetterkey wrote:I do know, however, have the original Codex: Dark Eldar. When this Codex got revised, the new rules were published in Chapter Approved, and the Codex was then reprinted. People with the old version of Codex could either use that with the Chapter Approved article or get the new version.

Are you saying that my Codex: Dark Eldar from early 1999 is... outdated?!?

Kveldulv wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:I do know, however, have the original Codex: Dark Eldar. When this Codex got revised, the new rules were published in Chapter Approved, and the Codex was then reprinted. People with the old version of Codex could either use that with the Chapter Approved article or get the new version.

Are you saying that my Codex: Dark Eldar from early 1999 is... outdated?!?

lol, your avatar matches your post.


the problem with the 3rd edition chapter approved (i skipped 4th ed so can't comment about that) was that they completely changed the "official" stance midway through the edition. in the beginning of the articles, it specifically said that they were all completely legit and as legal as codices and didn't need an opponent's permission; a few years later it changed to the same BS that they write for FAQs and all of a sudden you needed permission. were some of the lists broken? you bet some were but not any more or less after the stuff became unofficial. heck, they even changed how "official" the VDR rules were within 3 months of publishing them because they didn't playtest them (you used to be able to build an ork trukk identical to the codex for 40% less points). ultimately, i think they did more good than harm and broadened the available armies to play against in the days before every SM chapter had their own codex.

also, does this entire thread contain a single bit of news or even one real rumor? i'd have asked it be moved but almost every mod posted on the first page and didn't seem to have a problem with it being here, lol.

(And now a message from an alternate universe...)

Now I know a lot of people have been complaining about the new codex that's coming out. They say it's not needed, that the differences between this army and the others does not justify a full codex. They say it's just the same as the vanilla codex but painted red.

These people are wrong.

First of all they forget that the fluff has long-established that Praetorians are the best bayonette fighters in the Imperium which was reflected in the 3rd edition Praetorian Codex but dropped in that crappy PDF Praetorian Codex GW did for 4th edition. Also only Praetorians have the Stiff Upper Lip rule and Beefeater squads.

Plus the Victoria-Patten Leman Russ and Edwardian-Pattern sentinels are unique vehicles that right now you can only get in crappy metal-plastic hybrid kits. We need them in plastic.

Vanilla Guard, Catachans, Death Korps, Cadians and Praetorians are very different armies with their own histories, fighting styles and rules. You can't just lump them into one book like GW does with Space Marines (who are basically the same models painted different colors).

Right now 4 of those armies have a codex but Praetorians have to use a crappy PDF with no fluff in it. Plus the Death Korps and Catachan books are from 4th edition and are showing their age. Maybe after all the books are updated to 5th edition then we can talk about doing a codex for some crazy Marine sub-list but for now GW has to focus on the unique armies.

But in essence, Praetorians, Death Korps, and Catachans are the same army, they just have different appearances.

Space Marine chapters have their own histories, fighting styles and rules. Why not do the same for them!?

It seems to me that you are complaining that Marines are getting another codex, rather than some other "more deserving" army. I understand, there are codexes in absolute need of a new book, but Blood Angels could use a new codex as well.

I mean, Praetorians are just Cadians with fancy clothes and stiff upper lips. Catachans are just Cadians with huge muscles. Where's the line drawn?

This thread makes me want to kill myself.

Scottywan82 wrote:This thread makes me want to kill myself.

I already did..but FML I rolled a 4 on WBB

Looks like my rendition of Kyoto Kid's OP from the first page still proves accurate.

And the 2009 sarcasm detection fail award goes to... Cryonicleech!

(The overkill award goes to Scottywan82)

Cryonicleech wrote:But in essence, Praetorians, Death Korps, and Catachans are the same army, they just have different appearances.

Space Marine chapters have their own histories, fighting styles and rules. Why not do the same for them!?

It seems to me that you are complaining that Marines are getting another codex, rather than some other "more deserving" army. I understand, there are codexes in absolute need of a new book, but Blood Angels could use a new codex as well.

I mean, Praetorians are just Cadians with fancy clothes and stiff upper lips. Catachans are just Cadians with huge muscles. Where's the line drawn?

Well Catachans had a 6+ save and WS4, so obviously they deserve a codex more than BAs who have the same save and WS as vanilla marines.

Kveldulv wrote:And the 2009 sarcasm detection fail award goes to... Cryonicleech!

(The overkill award goes to Scottywan82)

I'd like to thank the Academy, and my mom, and Jesus,



Damn you Kanye!

That is obviously fake as Kanye only speaks and types IN ALL CAPS!!!!

Kid_Kyoto wrote:(And now a message from an alternate universe...)

Now I know a lot of people have been complaining about the new codex that's coming out. They say it's not needed, that the differences between this army and the others does not justify a full codex. They say it's just the same as the vanilla codex but painted red.

These people are wrong.

First of all they forget that the fluff has long-established that Praetorians are the best bayonette fighters in the Imperium which was reflected in the 3rd edition Praetorian Codex but dropped in that crappy PDF Praetorian Codex GW did for 4th edition. Also only Praetorians have the Stiff Upper Lip rule and Beefeater squads.

Plus the Victoria-Patten Leman Russ and Edwardian-Pattern sentinels are unique vehicles that right now you can only get in crappy metal-plastic hybrid kits. We need them in plastic.

Vanilla Guard, Catachans, Death Korps, Cadians and Praetorians are very different armies with their own histories, fighting styles and rules. You can't just lump them into one book like GW does with Space Marines (who are basically the same models painted different colors).

Right now 4 of those armies have a codex but Praetorians have to use a crappy PDF with no fluff in it. Plus the Death Korps and Catachan books are from 4th edition and are showing their age. Maybe after all the books are updated to 5th edition then we can talk about doing a codex for some crazy Marine sub-list but for now GW has to focus on the unique armies.

EXALT!

You make it sound like this thread wasn't tainted to begin with.

EDIT: To contribute, I would like to point out that you can create Wolf Guard, Long Fangs, Grey Hunters, and Blood Claws all from the same Space Wolf kit. It's more than likely that GW will simply produce a single kit to create Tactical, Assault, Death Company, and Honour Guard marines from, rather than separate ones. I also think a simple upgrade kit a la Black Templars is unlikely since those apparently have not sold well.

Cryonicleech wrote:
I mean, Praetorians are just Cadians with fancy clothes and stiff upper lips. Catachans are just Cadians with huge muscles. Where's the line drawn?

I hope that you are not being serious right now.

If you are, this is one of the most fething stupid things I have ever read. Ever.

No it's not stupid. Not unless you actually back it up instead of trying to invalidate my argument.

Example: Catachans and Black Templar.

Black Templar are unlike regular Space Marines, just like Catachans are unlike regular Imperial Guard. The only argument I see KK making is that "Oh, they're Space Marines in a different color" Well, by following that same logic, Catachans are just Imperal Guard with different models. What I am asking is where is the line drawn when it comes to variant armies. I'm not at all saying Praetorians suck, or that Catachans suck, I'm glad that Guard players have access to different types of models instead of the same old Cadians.

But then there's the argument on stats. Catachans actually had different stats from regular guard back in the old Catachan 'dex, right? Now, a basic Tactical Marine rarely changes from army to army, and I doubt there are any Tactical Squads with different stats (But different rules is another thing). And sure, the old Catachans probably had different saves, Weapon Skill, etc. than Cadians. But Black Templar have different units and even different squad make-up (BT Tacticals can take scouts, IIRC) Black Templar can take Sword Brethern, The Emperors Champion, Army-Wide Special Rules, etc. Which made them different from Vanilla Marines. The same thing applies to Catachans.

And I would love to thank the academy for some award the internet deems me worthy of receiving, even if it's some lame attempt to discredit my ideas.

Anyway, this discussion is getting off topic, and I suggest we start getting it back on track before the mods smell the blood in the water.

I too think the Blood Angels will get a single box, similar to the Space Wolves, with options for different units. Perhaps a new character sculpt, and I'm hoping a new Furioso.

I also would think a box of Death Company.

ph34r wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Well, no, because TFG could in some cases actually be right. Besides, when that "book" is some random White Dwarf issue that your shop doesn't even carry, it can be difficult to verify what's going on.

Right or wrong the burden of bringing rules is on the person that wants to use them. My previous statements still stand and you have not refuted them at all.[/quote
Are we reading the same thread?

Yeah, the thread where you say that TFGs are a problem when they make up rules, and I say that if you want to use rules you should bring them in print, and then you say nothing to the contrary. If this is confusing please post again.

ph34r wrote:If you don't have white dwarf then you can buy the information for free.

What?

Typo. "If you don't have white dwarf then you can buy the information instead of getting it for free" My other points that you have ignored, as they show how you are incorrect, still stand.

ph34r wrote:It is not the fault of variant books that tournaments had different rules (protip: every tournament has different rules).

Yes, but they shouldn't, and variant books contribute to that problem. Here are the sample rules from a tournament way back in the day-- this doesn't cover scoring, judging, or anything, just the basic rules that the game is played by:
*long list of rules*

Oh, that's long? Adepticon's first section of the first box of the 40k tournament rules are about half as long, and they don't have to list out all the between-books parts of white dwarves. Seriously, if you can't handle the fact that you might be going up against an opponent who is using slightly more updated rules, it is your loss. 40k isn't checkers, new rules coming out is a good thing for the game, and I think that most 40k players are perfectly capable of dealing with it.

It's fairly obvious which is less confusing.

They are equally unconfusing to me. The only difference is, the first one uses less condensed wording. The first list could have said "All recent IA and CA articles" in place of half that list, which makes the lists pretty damn near equal. Of course the old list would still be slightly longer once written more efficiently (8 lines longer than the current) but the fact of that edition was that there were huge changes in the rules because of the recent update from 2nd. It is only natural that 5th edition be more streamlined in tournament rules presentation, because it is more simplified in rules. The removal of CA, IA, and the other IA is not excused by "it was too confusing!", they could have super easily transfered all that information into 2 or 3 new, optional books for the new edition.

You don't have to choose "many books slowly building up complexity of possibilities and clarity of rules" (3e) or "no complexity of rules and moderate clarity of rules" (5e). Now you are the one spouting false dilemma. GW could have easily updated the extra special rules into the new books or a new IA/IA/CA book at the same time they folded the FAQs into clearer rules writing.

Actually, it does. At the start of 3rd edition, everything was so different from 2nd that all the army lists had to be revised, so every army (except Necrons) had a bare-bones army list at the back of the main rulebook. A lot of people (rightfully) complained, because those army lists were extremely sparse. GW then went too far in the other direction, releasing tons of variant lists, mini-Codices, etc. This shift from one extreme to another represents what is commonly referred to as "pendulum swing."

No, you are wrong. This is what happened: New edition released. Rules start building up in complexity. It isn't like GW decided to simplify everything as a final solution, they simply started at ground level and built up. I can't see how anyone, even you, would mistake this for a pendulum swing. It was not "oh I think we simplified it a bit too much" but rather "lets get every list established in the new edition and once everyone has compatible army lists, let's add detail".

The issue is not that the erratas/FAQs weren't optional, the issue is that nonoptional content was mixed in with optional content. The second part, re: updates being online, is only partially true at best. I'm pretty sure not everything was originally available online, since I distinctly remember finding out about Crux Terminatus through the original 3rd edition Chapter Approved compilation, but that was way back in the day and my memory isn't all that good. I do know, however, that I have the original Codex: Dark Eldar. When this Codex got revised, the new rules were published in Chapter Approved, and the Codex was then reprinted. People with the old version of Codex could either use that with the Chapter Approved article or get the new version. An update PDF was available for a time, but was later removed.

Yes, codex DE got updated. FAQs were available online back then just as much as they are now, except back then they worked hard on them and released them in books for us to have an additional way of accessing them. Back then GW solved a lot of problems through FAQs, and maybe this was because of wanting people to buy the FAQs through CA books. However this is vastly preferable to "just make sure your opponent is okay with it!", and then straight up saying that FAQs are optional all together.

ph34r wrote:If the current books had giant errors and problems with them they would require other books. Chapter Approved did not change Codexes for no reason, it changed them for a good reason: they needed fixing. Stop bringing up the "distributed through white dwarf oh god how will you ever track it down", as stores had recent issues of WD and non-recent issues were in books called... Chapter Approved. Having to buy a $25 book on top of a $40 book isn't bad at all, considering how long 3rd edition lasted and how much the 5e book costs. Who cares if a variant army is slightly less well known as a "core" army? That is not a bad thing.

The 5th edition rulebook costs about 20 bucks, thanks to the glory that is Black Reach. This is a very good thing. Barriers to entry have never been lower, except during the bad old days of early 3rd, where the fact that you could know everything with one book was sadly negated by the fact that everything was pretty much the same.

Black reach and 2nd hand rulebooks are a good thing, sure. However that doesn't make anything we were talking about (3e, CA) actively bad, and you also have not refuted anything I just said but rather stated a well known fact: Black Reach Is Good. They did not have Black Reach back then, Black Reach has no effect on "was CA good".

Kveldulv wrote:As for the Chapter Approved debate: 1. Get a hold of WD 255. 2. Open it on page 44. 3. Watch in awe as Pete Haines gives you 6 pages of advanced formulaes for creating Tyranid superheavies.
For me, this is what the hobby is about. The stuff you could make with these optional rules were horribly broken, but they served as a guideline for players' own creativity. The rules weren't meant for tournament play, but for fun.

I liked all the crazy stuff in Chapter Approved (especially the VDR), but having that optional fun/silly content mixed in with nonoptional content is confusing and a bad idea from a design perspective.

Well if the options are "release fun rules not intended for tournaments, and have tournaments have to clarify them as not used", or "not have fun extra rules", I will go with the first every time. Of course there is also "release a fourth extra rules book" but that is probably too complicated too

Cryonicleech wrote:What I am asking is where is the line drawn when it comes to variant armies.

If I were running the place my answer is 1 big 100+ page codex for each major faction. Then lots of small 1, 5, 10, 20 page variant books for all the sub-factions. Throw some in the codex as GW did with the 3.5 Chaos book, throw the rest in WD with at least 1 variant army list an issue. Put them online after a month or two. That way we all have a reason to read WD (imagine, that, you see once upon a time kids everyone read WD every month...) we all see new variant lists and we all have hope that one fine day the Crimson Fists or Ork Freebootaz or Praetorians will get their own list.

Basically dial back the clock to where we were in 2003.

Sure Marines and MEqs got most of those lists (all 18 first founding chapters plus a bunch more) but hey, there were plenty of IG, a few Ork and even a Nid variant or two.

Some of the lists were crap, some had potential, some were great. IG Armored companies went through at least 3 drafts. Drop Troops I'm sure were revised between WD and the list in Imperial Armor. There were some edits to the Index Astres lists between WD and them being collected, that's fine. Editing, refinement and correcting are good things. Tag the lists with some sort of easy system - Experimental (brand new, untested), Trial (2nd draft, reasonably good) and Official (as good as a codex). Let clubs and shops and tournaments decide what they'll accept.

For me the BA PDF is exactly the sort of thing GW should do more of, not disown and ignore.

But a BA codex is coming anyway so hopefully we'll get some neat toys out of it.

So a question, besides shoulder pad what would a BA marine box need? What would be cool to get?

I can imagine getting at least one set of ornate legs and body to make a distincitive BA commander.

Hopefully something i always like the blood angels the best of all the "loyal" legions.

Cryonicleech wrote:But in essence, Praetorians, Death Korps, and Catachans are the same army, they just have different appearances.

Space Marine chapters have their own histories, fighting styles and rules. Why not do the same for them!?

A good question. Just because it is too difficult for the designers to bring new "fighting style" to guards.

Field more vehicles,more guns. Then crush your enemies with them. This is the current "fight style" for guards.

Can you suggest a better one?

I too wish GW made more variant lists like the BA 'dex.

Guard have more options for fighting styles. Steel Legion are Armored Infantry, Catachans are Jungle Fighters, etc. etc.

I would hope for some cooler looking jump packs in the kit though. I mean, they've always looked pretty plain to me, IMHO. And some dynamic poses for the legs, obviously. I can't stand jump troops who look like they're standing around, doing nothing.

Cryonicleech wrote:
But then there's the argument on stats. Catachans actually had different stats from regular guard back in the old Catachan 'dex, right? Now, a basic Tactical Marine rarely changes from army to army, and I doubt there are any Tactical Squads with different stats (But different rules is another thing). And sure, the old Catachans probably had different saves, Weapon Skill, etc. than Cadians. But Black Templar have different units and even different squad make-up (BT Tacticals can take scouts, IIRC) Black Templar can take Sword Brethern, The Emperors Champion, Army-Wide Special Rules, etc. Which made them different from Vanilla Marines. The same thing applies to Catachans.

Here's how to fit the BT codex into the SM codex:

HQ: Emperor's Children (You gain access to units X, Y, Z and you may take these vows for A, B, C points, your army gains ___ etc)

Then you fit in everything. That's how easy it is.

Catachans are as different from Cadians as Spacewolves are from normal Imperial space marines.

Dark Angels are stupidly easy to fit into the normal Imperial marine codex so I'm not even going to go there.

Well considering that The blood angels are so far sighted and want to make new things they should have different variants of weapons and vechiles. Considering that they are they wear red is good enough for me.

Ho-Ho-Ho vampire style. Well i read all i can about all of the legions and the Blood Angels Stand out because they had the most Veterans. (too bad soo many died :*( thanks Kabahanda )
I personnally think that the Blood Angels Primarch was cool but a sorta whinner and could get his head chopped off by any of the primarchs.

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Here's how to fit the BT codex into the SM codex:

HQ: Emperor's Children (You gain access to units X, Y, Z and you may take these vows for A, B, C points, your army gains ___ etc)

Then you fit in everything. That's how easy it is.

Catachans are as different from Cadians as Spacewolves are from normal Imperial space marines.

Dark Angels are stupidly easy to fit into the normal Imperial marine codex so I'm not even going to go there.

Here's how to fit the CSM codex into the SM codex:

HQ:
Deamon Prince (You gain access to units X, Y, Z and you lose access to unit A, B, C, your army gains updrades K,T,N,S___ etc)

Chaos Sorcerer(You gain access to psychic powers P,Q,R, you lose access to unit A, B, C, your army gains upgrades K,T,N,S ___ etc)

Then you fit in everything. That's how easy it is.

ph34r wrote:Yeah, the thread where you say that TFGs are a problem when they make up rules, and I say that if you want to use rules you should bring them in print, and then you say nothing to the contrary. If this is confusing please post again.

The jokes I've seen were about people springing new rules on people from unusual supplements, which may/may not be legitimate. The possibility for this kind of thing is eliminated when such supplements don't contain tournament- or pickup- valid rules.

ph34r wrote:You don't have to choose "many books slowly building up complexity of possibilities and clarity of rules" (3e) or "no complexity of rules and moderate clarity of rules" (5e). Now you are the one spouting false dilemma. GW could have easily updated the extra special rules into the new books or a new IA/IA/CA book at the same time they folded the FAQs into clearer rules writing.

I'd describe the current edition as a good balance between early 3rd edition (very little detail, but very clear) and late 3rd/4th edition (tons of detail, but often unclear or unbalanced). I think 5th edition is the best edition of 40k yet, and barring a few wonky spots (KPs, limited scenarios, wound allocation for complex multi-wound units), I can think of very little that I would want to change for a potential 6th edition of the basic 40k rules.

ph34r wrote:This is what happened: New edition released. Rules start building up in complexity. It isn't like GW decided to simplify everything as a final solution, they simply started at ground level and built up. I can't see how anyone, even you, would mistake this for a pendulum swing. It was not "oh I think we simplified it a bit too much" but rather "lets get every list established in the new edition and once everyone has compatible army lists, let's add detail".

I don't have access to my 3rd edition rulebook, or else I would quote the section in the designer notes that explains this. As more and more supplements came out, 2nd edition, which already used more detailed mechanics than modern 40k, became even more complex. GW decided that the game was too complex and was bogging down in larger battles, so they released the much simpler 3rd edition. The mechanics changed enough that new, extremely simplified lists were required-- while these lists were not intended as permanent solutions, the Codices that came out soon after the release of 3rd edition indicate that a simpler approach was, in fact, considered favorable at the time. Compare the original 3rd edition Codex: Chaos Space Marines to the 3.5e one, or the 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines to the 4th edition one, or even the original Codex: Dark Eldar to the updated/"patched" Codex: Dark Eldar. This approach was considered to be undesirable, so later versions of these Codices featured many, many more options. Classic pendulum swing: lots of detail to very little detail to lots of detail again.

Yes, codex DE got updated. FAQs were available online back then just as much as they are now, except back then they worked hard on them and released them in books for us to have an additional way of accessing them. Back then GW solved a lot of problems through FAQs, and maybe this was because of wanting people to buy the FAQs through CA books. However this is vastly preferable to "just make sure your opponent is okay with it!", and then straight up saying that FAQs are optional all together.

GW's current attitude towards FAQs really has very little to do with Chapter Approved, and more to do with their general move away from tournament play, or at least official GW tournaments. This opens the opportunity for the community to create their own FAQs in order to resolve key problems.

ph34r wrote:]Black reach and 2nd hand rulebooks are a good thing, sure. However that doesn't make anything we were talking about (3e, CA) actively bad, and you also have not refuted anything I just said but rather stated a well known fact: Black Reach Is Good. They did not have Black Reach back then, Black Reach has no effect on "was CA good".

The obvious inference is that the current system, in which you have to buy fewer books, is better than the old system, in which you had to buy more books.

ph34r wrote:Well if the options are "release fun rules not intended for tournaments, and have tournaments have to clarify them as not used", or "not have fun extra rules", I will go with the first every time. Of course there is also "release a fourth extra rules book" but that is probably too complicated too

I like the "release an extra rulebook, which is clearly for X games only" approach. Planetstrike, Apocalypse, and Cityfight/Cities of Death are good examples of this.

tokugawa wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Here's how to fit the BT codex into the SM codex:

HQ: Emperor's Children (You gain access to units X, Y, Z and you may take these vows for A, B, C points, your army gains ___ etc)

Then you fit in everything. That's how easy it is.

Catachans are as different from Cadians as Spacewolves are from normal Imperial space marines.

Dark Angels are stupidly easy to fit into the normal Imperial marine codex so I'm not even going to go there.

Here's how to fit the CSM codex into the SM codex:

HQ:
Deamon Prince (You gain access to units X, Y, Z and you lose access to unit A, B, C, your army gains updrades K,T,N,S___ etc)

Chaos Sorcerer(You gain access to psychic powers P,Q,R, you lose access to unit A, B, C, your army gains upgrades K,T,N,S ___ etc)

Then you fit in everything. That's how easy it is.

Summed it up better than I could.

To be honest BA and DA especially have had some of their uniqueness taken away by newer SM releases. BA currently are more unique then DA because their specialty (Jump pack orientated troops) and other unique units (furioso, DC and Baal pred) have largely not be copied. DA used to be the only army that could have either all Terminators or all Bikes, now neither is unique. Therefore new codex's are needed to make the chapters more unique again.

As to specific BA kits I think they'll get an upgrade kit like SW with the extra parts used to kitbash BA specific units. GW will probably come out with a BA vehicle kit that has a spare Dread arm and the turret for the Baal Preditor. I wouldn't mind them making a BA honor guard/veteran assault squad box though.

GW's going to milk all they get out of SM (more codex's, and releases), we all know that, why they don't try it with other armies is beyond me (guard or chaos being the main ones). That being said doesn't FW have alternate guard lists?

The jokes I've seen were about people springing new rules on people from unusual supplements, which may/may not be legitimate. The possibility for this kind of thing is eliminated when such supplements don't contain tournament- or pickup- valid rules.

It really isn't an issue. If you have the supplement, it is legitimate. If you are listing rules off the top of your head to someone who has never heard of them you must bring the rules or be laughed at.

I'd describe the current edition as a good balance between early 3rd edition (very little detail, but very clear) and late 3rd/4th edition (tons of detail, but often unclear or unbalanced). I think 5th edition is the best edition of 40k yet, and barring a few wonky spots (KPs, limited scenarios, wound allocation for complex multi-wound units), I can think of very little that I would want to change for a potential 6th edition of the basic 40k rules.

5th edition is fine, but the lack of CA/IA/IA width of rules being encompassed into the sucks. 5th edition would be improved by additional rulebooks, or additional rules rolled into the basic rules. Most CA/IA/IA rules were left out.

I don't have access to my 3rd edition rulebook, or else I would quote the section in the designer notes that explains this. As more and more supplements came out, 2nd edition, which already used more detailed mechanics than modern 40k, became even more complex. GW decided that the game was too complex and was bogging down in larger battles, so they released the much simpler 3rd edition. The mechanics changed enough that new, extremely simplified lists were required-- while these lists were not intended as permanent solutions, the Codices that came out soon after the release of 3rd edition indicate that a simpler approach was, in fact, considered favorable at the time. Compare the original 3rd edition Codex: Chaos Space Marines to the 3.5e one, or the 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines to the 4th edition one, or even the original Codex: Dark Eldar to the updated/"patched" Codex: Dark Eldar. This approach was considered to be undesirable, so later versions of these Codices featured many, many more options. Classic pendulum swing: lots of detail to very little detail to lots of detail again.

If you want to consider that a pendulum swing then I guess I will not dissuade you. I too am aware of the 3rd edition book, and would not interpret this as a "lets see how everyone likes the rules condensed to near 0 flavor! oh no they hated it add more rules" but rather "all the rules changed. we need to make new codexes fast, we can add more rules later".

GW's current attitude towards FAQs really has very little to do with Chapter Approved, and more to do with their general move away from tournament play, or at least official GW tournaments. This opens the opportunity for the community to create their own FAQs in order to resolve key problems.

Too bad they still haven't made satisfactory FAQs, and they still hold on to the "get your opponent's permission to use the rules correctly!"

ph34r wrote:Black reach and 2nd hand rulebooks are a good thing, sure. However that doesn't make anything we were talking about (3e, CA) actively bad, and you also have not refuted anything I just said but rather stated a well known fact: Black Reach Is Good. They did not have Black Reach back then, Black Reach has no effect on "was CA good".

The obvious inference is that the current system, in which you have to buy fewer books, is better than the old system, in which you had to buy more books.

No gak sherlock. Again, Black Reach having a cheap rulebook has no relation at all with Chapter Approved. No CA in 3rd ed would not make GW make a cheaper rulebook, and CA now would not increase the price. In fact, a cheap core rulebook creates the opportunity to focus more on expansion books (not mission books like CoD, planetstrike, whatever), rather than not at all.

I like the "release an extra rulebook, which is clearly for X games only" approach. Planetstrike, Apocalypse, and Cityfight/Cities of Death are good examples of this.

And I hate it. "Do you want to play Planetstrike?" No. "Do you want to play CoD?" No. People don't design their normal armies to play missions where the board is entirely covered in cities or everything deep strikes. I would much rather have books that improved armies for every day play, rather than rules for missions to totally change the game. And, as we saw in 3rd edition, there is no reason that these cannot coexist.

Well to get back on track...

1. Marine heads with hair and no braids/beards.
2. Heads with fangs...maybe?
3. Chapter Banner, a Chalice, apothicary/chaplain bits a plastic death mask for your home made Lemartes
4. Power Axes (seem popular on BA models), PA&Termy Helmets, legs, torsos, backpacks, dreadnought/Rhino/LR bits with iconography for regular BA as well as BA. I hope the BA shoulder pads look good as the GW metal ones suck donkey. If they are 70% of the FW termy SPs then Ill be happy.
5. Drop pod doors? Im half expecting FW to start doing Chapter specific doors. Why not?
6. Dante/Mephiston with a new pack pack. Resculpt of Tyco and some RETCON fluff.
7. Hopefully some completely new character. or rules for BA sucessor Chapter Masters since there arent any special BA companies like DA, or Captains like SW...Blackmane's.
in my dreams bits for flesh terrors and a Seth model. I wouldnt be opposed to something totally random like a BA techmarine who can pilot vehicles with overcharged engines or even operate a thunderfire with BA ammo or some such. Just for something different.

I might imagine Marines as a whole could get:

1. honor guard (not sure here as these may undercut the existing sales of the vanguard and Sternguard metals)
2. generic Librarian or Chaplain box akin to the Captain...(not likely same as above)
3. Recut Predator, but I think the Baal options might end up on a "Ravenwing" like sprew with other vehicle upgrader.
4. NO thunderhawk. I dont think GW is taking 40k into a flyer oriented game, storing transporting, and cost seems prohibitive.

ph34r wrote:

The jokes I've seen were about people springing new rules on people from unusual supplements, which may/may not be legitimate. The possibility for this kind of thing is eliminated when such supplements don't contain tournament- or pickup- valid rules.

It really isn't an issue. If you have the supplement, it is legitimate. If you are listing rules off the top of your head to someone who has never heard of them you must bring the rules or be laughed at.

Up here in Washington this WAS a problem for about a year. In 4th ed, one guy had all the old supplements and would spring them on various people who were fairly new to the game, using their ignorance to gain an unfair advantage over them. Eventually he was kicked out of the store because it was pissing people off and they weren't coming back. Having all the information spread out all over the place gives the experienced players an unfair advantage in this regard since the newer players simply don't know those rules exist (and therefor haven't looked for them) or can't afford every single essoteric rulebook that may or may not be in print. When you walk into a store and see a row of codexs you think, "Ah... here is my info, now I can battle". If you find out you have to collect a library of stuff that is going to be hard to get, you might just decide it's not worth it and play a different system. Price of collecting all those various books also becomes a barrier to entry. Not good for new recruits.

I have to agree that I do not like chasing down abstract rules from ancient tomes. The main rule books + codexs + any special game system (Planet Strike, Apocalypse etc...) + FAQs is more than enough. For this same reason I disliked the PDF BA rules that we go handed down. Without a real codex my opponent is less likely to know what my forces/abilities are because they may not know where to find the information. YES, before there's a snarky remark, I have had this happen. Remember that we who post here often know more than your average player. People who get surprised by things often think you are trying to pull a fast one, and that can put a cloud over the game. So, a new codex will be greatly appreciated as ALL CURRENT RULES should be in print and visible on the store wall, not hidden away in the store's drawer if they're there at all.

Moopy wrote:Up here in Washington this WAS a problem for about a year. In 4th ed, one guy had all the old supplements and would spring them on various people who were fairly new to the game, using their ignorance to gain an unfair advantage over them. Eventually he was kicked out of the store because it was pissing people off and they weren't coming back. Having all the information spread out all over the place gives the experienced players an unfair advantage in this regard since the newer players simply don't know those rules exist (and therefor haven't looked for them) or can't afford every single essoteric rulebook that may or may not be in print. When you walk into a store and see a row of codexs you think, "Ah... here is my info, now I can battle". If you find out you have to collect a library of stuff that is going to be hard to get, you might just decide it's not worth it and play a different system. Price of collecting all those various books also becomes a barrier to entry. Not good for new recruits.

I have to agree that I do not like chasing down abstract rules from ancient tomes. The main rule books + codexs + any special game system (Planet Strike, Apocalypse etc...) + FAQs is more than enough. For this same reason I disliked the PDF BA rules that we go handed down. Without a real codex my opponent is less likely to know what my forces/abilities are because they may not know where to find the information. YES, before there's a snarky remark, I have had this happen. Remember that we who post here often know more than your average player. People who get surprised by things often think you are trying to pull a fast one, and that can put a cloud over the game. So, a new codex will be greatly appreciated as ALL CURRENT RULES should be in print and visible on the store wall, not hidden away in the store's drawer if they're there at all.

Tragic story, but it isn't the CA's fault that a player used them to trick new players. I could just as easily pull out my 3.5e codex CSM and trick a new player.

The thing about 3rd edition and your "abstract rules" and "ancient tomes" is that they weren't abstract and they weren't ancient. They were relevant, important, clarifying, and expanding. They were new, and people knew about them. Now, looking back you might think "look at all those crazy rules! we certainly don't have that many rules now!" but at the time those were the rules.

I don't think we'll see a new predator variant any time soon. More likeley the parts for an assault cannon turret will be in the one sprue they'l make, just like they did with Dark Angels.

The baal predator will be updated. as a plastic-metal hybrid kit it is exactly the sort of kit GW is try to update and replace. Also you forget that a Baal Predator is more than just an assault cannon turret. You also need the sponsons. That is 6 and 8 parts just for the weapons, depending on how they fit together. Assuming they want additional add-on bits for it, like the ammo box, or other variants it only takes up more sprue. GW will likely make a whole new sprue that is composed of those 10 or so bits, the two parts that make the turret and the 6 sponson parts. The one sprue would replace the two non-rhino sprues in the predator kit.

ph34r wrote:

I'd describe the current edition as a good balance between early 3rd edition (very little detail, but very clear) and late 3rd/4th edition (tons of detail, but often unclear or unbalanced). I think 5th edition is the best edition of 40k yet, and barring a few wonky spots (KPs, limited scenarios, wound allocation for complex multi-wound units), I can think of very little that I would want to change for a potential 6th edition of the basic 40k rules.

5th edition is fine, but the lack of CA/IA/IA width of rules being encompassed into the sucks. 5th edition would be improved by additional rulebooks, or additional rules rolled into the basic rules. Most CA/IA/IA rules were left out.

I consider that desirable, as it reduces clutter and increases balance. This is similar to how I favor the 5th edition Codex: Space Marines over the 4th edition one, though. The 4th edition Codex was a lot more customizable, but often in silly ways, like the broken Traits system. The 5th edition Codex, on the other hand, is much more balanced while still containing a lot of options.

ph34r wrote:

GW's current attitude towards FAQs really has very little to do with Chapter Approved, and more to do with their general move away from tournament play, or at least official GW tournaments. This opens the opportunity for the community to create their own FAQs in order to resolve key problems.

Too bad they still haven't made satisfactory FAQs, and they still hold on to the "get your opponent's permission to use the rules correctly!"

I disagree that GW FAQs are generally unsatisfactory. Remember that the most recent FAQ was for Codex: Imperial Guard, and it admirably solved every ambiguity or issue I had with the Codex (Valkyrie/Vendetta measurement to model vs. measurement to base, orders to allies, GKTs in Valkyries, mortar/MoO multiple bombardment silliness). I believe that you too found this FAQ satisfactory, or at least said so at the time.

[quote=[h34r]

I like the "release an extra rulebook, which is clearly for X games only" approach. Planetstrike, Apocalypse, and Cityfight/Cities of Death are good examples of this.

And I hate it. "Do you want to play Planetstrike?" No. "Do you want to play CoD?" No. People don't design their normal armies to play missions where the board is entirely covered in cities or everything deep strikes. I would much rather have books that improved armies for every day play, rather than rules for missions to totally change the game. And, as we saw in 3rd edition, there is no reason that these cannot coexist.

I think that for the BA release there'll be a sprue, like the DA/SW sprue, lots of nice BA bits which can go with any other kit (e.g tac, dev etc) to make BA units.

I think that they may also do some new assault sprue, for Death compny/vet jump troops.

Otherwise, maybe a plastic Ball/Furioso (one or other) I'd also guess a few new metal characters, max 5.

Personally i hope when they do marines in 6th, it's codex Marines and codex odd marines to include BA, DA, BT and SW two books are all you need, and please please don't stick stuff in WD or the net, it's a lot easier to organise vents when it's just books and not funny bits of printed paper floating around!

Sounds like a good prediction. A lot of people seem to be expecting a Predator recut, which would be welcome but doesn't seem totally necessary. On the other hand, the Marine line is good enough at this stage that we're really dealing primarily with "luxury items" here, other than the obvious BA sprue to match the DA/SW/BT ones, so who knows what will happen?

Cryonicleech wrote:

tokugawa wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Here's how to fit the BT codex into the SM codex:

HQ: Emperor's Children (You gain access to units X, Y, Z and you may take these vows for A, B, C points, your army gains ___ etc)

Then you fit in everything. That's how easy it is.

Catachans are as different from Cadians as Spacewolves are from normal Imperial space marines.

Dark Angels are stupidly easy to fit into the normal Imperial marine codex so I'm not even going to go there.

Here's how to fit the CSM codex into the SM codex:

HQ:
Deamon Prince (You gain access to units X, Y, Z and you lose access to unit A, B, C, your army gains updrades K,T,N,S___ etc)

Chaos Sorcerer(You gain access to psychic powers P,Q,R, you lose access to unit A, B, C, your army gains upgrades K,T,N,S ___ etc)

Then you fit in everything. That's how easy it is.

Summed it up better than I could.

That would be how you would fit in the CURRENT Chaos codex.

Even then, there are still marks. There are still 4 different Cult units, different Terminators, Possessed, Obliterators, Raptors, etc.

Now, if there was a REAL Chaos codex, one that like the 3.5 codex, the above suggestion would definitely not work.

Cryonicleech, you said that there were like 5 or 6 different things about the Black Templar. There are many more differences between Chaos and Imperial space marines.

Sorry to destroy your battleship there.

ph34r wrote:Tragic story, but it isn't the CA's fault that a player used them to trick new players. I could just as easily pull out my 3.5e codex CSM and trick a new player.

Ahh but then you would be cheating, and not using the current poorly organized rules (spread out and hard to find in many cases) to your advantage. In one of your previous posts, you mentioned that you would rather have books that improve everyday play. I agree with that. Having all your rules centrally located in as few places as possible goes to improve the game for everyone. There's less time looking it up, and less arguments because everyone is on the same page. How that happens goes in my next point.

ph34r wrote:The thing about 3rd edition and your "abstract rules" and "ancient tomes" is that they weren't abstract and they weren't ancient. They were relevant, important, clarifying, and expanding. They were new, and people knew about them. Now, looking back you might think "look at all those crazy rules! we certainly don't have that many rules now!" but at the time those were the rules.

All of that refers to the inability of people actually get their hands on the rules at the time. Lots of these rules came out in the WD's and weren't reprinted until much later. During that doughnut hole of time, the WDs went out of print and people couldn't get them- I remember trying to get hold of the Iron Hands rules, but because I was stuck in classes and didn't have a car, the WD was sold out when I finally got to my store; I was SOL. When you can't get your hands on a complete set of the rules they do become nebulous to the player even though they are perfectly legal. You don't want to create a system of haves/have nots when it comes to the rules. Thus having the minimum amount of books keeps everyone on the same footing (core rule book + codex).

Again, this is why I'm looking forward to the BA codex, probably more so than any of the plastic kits. Don't get me wrong, I really want new DC and a brand new BA sprue to customize my (bat riding?) neo-space vampires, but more importantly I want a codex that people don't have to go out of their way to find.

It amuses me that WD used to sell out in 3rd edition due to things ACTUALLY being printed in it that werent just painting advertisements

I can see it now in the GW boardroom

GW Executive #1: We have the new reports.. based upon us putting useful information inside of white dwarf magazine the demand has outstripped our supply! What should we do about this?

GW Executive #2: Roll a D6. 1: 1s always fail. The only logical answer to demand outstripping supply is to LOWER demand by getting rid of everything people want to read"

GW Executive: JOLLY GOOD SHOW CHAP.. We will call this "4th edition" and it will be a new era in WD irrelevancy

Kid_Kyoto wrote:(And now a message from an alternate universe...)

Now I know a lot of people have been complaining about the new codex that's coming out. They say it's not needed, that the differences between this army and the others does not justify a full codex. They say it's just the same as the vanilla codex but painted red.

These people are wrong.

First of all they forget that the fluff has long-established that Praetorians are the best bayonette fighters in the Imperium which was reflected in the 3rd edition Praetorian Codex but dropped in that crappy PDF Praetorian Codex GW did for 4th edition. Also only Praetorians have the Stiff Upper Lip rule and Beefeater squads.

Plus the Victoria-Patten Leman Russ and Edwardian-Pattern sentinels are unique vehicles that right now you can only get in crappy metal-plastic hybrid kits. We need them in plastic.

Vanilla Guard, Catachans, Death Korps, Cadians and Praetorians are very different armies with their own histories, fighting styles and rules. You can't just lump them into one book like GW does with Space Marines (who are basically the same models painted different colors).

Right now 4 of those armies have a codex but Praetorians have to use a crappy PDF with no fluff in it. Plus the Death Korps and Catachan books are from 4th edition and are showing their age. Maybe after all the books are updated to 5th edition then we can talk about doing a codex for some crazy Marine sub-list but for now GW has to focus on the unique armies.

Don't forget their Rorke's Drift special scenario! It still uses VPs!

Kirasu wrote:It amuses me that WD used to sell out in 3rd edition due to things ACTUALLY being printed in it that werent just painting advertisements

I can see it now in the GW boardroom

GW Executive #1: We have the new reports.. based upon us putting useful information inside of white dwarf magazine the demand has outstripped our supply! What should we do about this?

GW Executive #2: Roll a D6. 1: 1s always fail. The only logical answer to demand outstripping supply is to LOWER demand by getting rid of everything people want to read"

GW Executive: JOLLY GOOD SHOW CHAP.. We will call this "4th edition" and it will be a new era in WD irrelevancy

So true :*(.
Thats how they do stuff.
and thats how i buy items.

How's this:

BLOOD ANGEL ASSAULT SQUAD
5 assault marines, with BA-style breastplates. Tons of shoulder pads and angel bitz to add to other squads and vehicle doors.
Furioso arm and Baal guns on that sprue.

They might be able to do it in one box.

I totally endorse it!

Cryonicleech wrote:

tokugawa wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Here's how to fit the BT codex into the SM codex:

HQ: Emperor's Children (You gain access to units X, Y, Z and you may take these vows for A, B, C points, your army gains ___ etc)

Then you fit in everything. That's how easy it is.

Catachans are as different from Cadians as Spacewolves are from normal Imperial space marines.

Dark Angels are stupidly easy to fit into the normal Imperial marine codex so I'm not even going to go there.

Here's how to fit the CSM codex into the SM codex:

HQ:
Deamon Prince (You gain access to units X, Y, Z and you lose access to unit A, B, C, your army gains updrades K,T,N,S___ etc)

Chaos Sorcerer(You gain access to psychic powers P,Q,R, you lose access to unit A, B, C, your army gains upgrades K,T,N,S ___ etc)

Then you fit in everything. That's how easy it is.

Summed it up better than I could.

The sad thing is, that's almost what the current Chaos dex looks like.

64mas wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:

tokugawa wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Here's how to fit the BT codex into the SM codex:

HQ: Emperor's Children (You gain access to units X, Y, Z and you may take these vows for A, B, C points, your army gains ___ etc)

Then you fit in everything. That's how easy it is.

Catachans are as different from Cadians as Spacewolves are from normal Imperial space marines.

Dark Angels are stupidly easy to fit into the normal Imperial marine codex so I'm not even going to go there.

Here's how to fit the CSM codex into the SM codex:

HQ:
Deamon Prince (You gain access to units X, Y, Z and you lose access to unit A, B, C, your army gains updrades K,T,N,S___ etc)

Chaos Sorcerer(You gain access to psychic powers P,Q,R, you lose access to unit A, B, C, your army gains upgrades K,T,N,S ___ etc)

Then you fit in everything. That's how easy it is.

Summed it up better than I could.

The sad thing is, that's almost what the current Chaos dex looks like.

I also agree but that's neither here nor there.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Sorry to destroy your battleship there.

Don't worry, plenty more where that came from.

There's still enough difference that Black Templar have to warrant their own codex.

What is so different about Praetorians or Catachans that requires an entirely new codex? Codex Marines are a shooting army. Black Templar are an assault army.

I'm asking you to point out the differences between Catachans and Praetorians. If you can point them out for me, I'd be absolutely happy to accept your argument, but I'm afraid that I currently do not see anything so different as to create an entirely new codex.

They dont.. its just people trying to think that their collection of metal guard somehow play differently than plastic stock cadians

The 4th ed codex incorporated all the different IG regiments fairly well as they didnt do anything *different* than one another

Im sorry but different "preferences" for weapons doesnt no constitute a new book

SM, BA, DA and templars all have a totally unique way of fighting and while the newest SM book sorta destroyed the DA uniqueness the fluff doesnt support the changes all that much

Fetterkey wrote:

ph34r wrote:5th edition is fine, but the lack of CA/IA/IA width of rules being encompassed into the sucks. 5th edition would be improved by additional rulebooks, or additional rules rolled into the basic rules. Most CA/IA/IA rules were left out.

I consider that desirable, as it reduces clutter and increases balance. This is similar to how I favor the 5th edition Codex: Space Marines over the 4th edition one, though. The 4th edition Codex was a lot more customizable, but often in silly ways, like the broken Traits system. The 5th edition Codex, on the other hand, is much more balanced while still containing a lot of options.

I would prefer "more options, some are too good, some or too bad" to "less options, some are too good, some are too bad". You will never perfectly balance anything, it is better to preserve options while creating balance than to remove options so that you don't have to worry about balancing them. That is just a lazy attitude. GW probably considered it too confusing for beginning players, to have similar armies have separate organizations.

I disagree that GW FAQs are generally unsatisfactory. Remember that the most recent FAQ was for Codex: Imperial Guard, and it admirably solved every ambiguity or issue I had with the Codex (Valkyrie/Vendetta measurement to model vs. measurement to base, orders to allies, GKTs in Valkyries, mortar/MoO multiple bombardment silliness). I believe that you too found this FAQ satisfactory, or at least said so at the time.

Some FAQs are better, some are worse. IG was one of the better ones. The FAQs still require opponents permission to use.

ph34r wrote:And I hate it. "Do you want to play Planetstrike?" No. "Do you want to play CoD?" No. People don't design their normal armies to play missions where the board is entirely covered in cities or everything deep strikes. I would much rather have books that improved armies for every day play, rather than rules for missions to totally change the game. And, as we saw in 3rd edition, there is no reason that these cannot coexist.

Perhaps the upcoming Missions book will satisfy both of us, then. From what I hear, it sounds like it will be a mix of fun/crazy scenarios and new ways of playing a balanced game. Since missions are currently one of the main weak points of 5th edition, I'll be interested to see what GW offers us in that regard.

I have high hopes for the mission book. It however, does not provide cool rules for armies, but rather for playing the game, and I would rather have expanded rules for armies than for scenarios. As I said before, there is no reason that expanding armies and expanding missions can't coexist.

Cryonicleech wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Sorry to destroy your battleship there.

Don't worry, plenty more where that came from.

There's still enough difference that Black Templar have to warrant their own codex.

What is so different about Praetorians or Catachans that requires an entirely new codex? Codex Marines are a shooting army. Black Templar are an assault army.

I'm asking you to point out the differences between Catachans and Praetorians. If you can point them out for me, I'd be absolutely happy to accept your argument, but I'm afraid that I currently do not see anything so different as to create an entirely new codex.

Let's see here: The Catachans are complete badasses who specialize in guerilla fighting, stealth and close combat. The grow up on a Deathworld where you're lucky to live to the age of 3. In short, they are an army of John J Rambos.

The Praetorians are more ranged based, and are a much more regimented army. They are fairly fearless, because of their commander's iron will.

At one time, the Catachans DID have their own codex so why shouldn't get their own codex later?

Kirasu wrote:
They dont.. its just people trying to think that their collection of metal guard somehow play differently than plastic stock cadians

The 4th ed codex incorporated all the different IG regiments fairly well as they didnt do anything *different* than one another

Im sorry but different "preferences" for weapons doesnt no constitute a new book

My bs detector is going off.

If you know ANYTHING about Imperial Guard, then you'd know that Catachans are very different compared to the Cadians.

SM, BA, DA and templars all have a totally unique way of fighting and while the newest SM book sorta destroyed the DA uniqueness the fluff doesnt support the changes all that much

Again, my bs detector is going off.

The newest IG book destroyed the Catachan uniqueness but the fluff doesn't support the changes all that much.

The Catachans fight completely different from Cadians.

The Catachans are stealth based and close combat based. Like I said above, an army of Rambo.

The Cadians are the stereotypical modern day army, and fight the enemy head on.

Cryonicleech wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Sorry to destroy your battleship there.

Don't worry, plenty more where that came from.

There's still enough difference that Black Templar have to warrant their own codex.

What is so different about Praetorians or Catachans that requires an entirely new codex? Codex Marines are a shooting army. Black Templar are an assault army.

I'm asking you to point out the differences between Catachans and Praetorians. If you can point them out for me, I'd be absolutely happy to accept your argument, but I'm afraid that I currently do not see anything so different as to create an entirely new codex.

Um you do realize I was being sarcastic right?

Right?

But what the heck. Catachans are easy, they had a codex. Cats avoided heavy weapons and favored short range stuff like flamers and demo charges. They could all infiltrate, move through woods and see through woods. They had a lower save armor than guard but a better cover save. They lost access to a lot of units like Storm Troopers, and there was a risk that commissars would be killed before the game started.

So basically the 40k commando army.

Praetorians never had a codex but some of the 3.5 traits were obviously meant for them. Close order drill (extra point of I if in base to base) and volley fire come to mind. They are the disciplined gun line army.

So give them rules that as long a squad is arrayed in a line they have +1 if charged and rerolls 1s if they miss. make their officers stubborn. Give them steampunk tanks that are slower than normal but harder to immobilize because of the more reliable tech.

Give them Kroot auxilleries since they like to hire local talent to scout for them.

Give them a legendary combat engineer who improves their cover save and barriers, and a legendary officer who makes squads fearless. And a medic who allows you to recycle dead models.

And that's cribbing off the movie Zulu.

So yeah, any army can be made interesting in the right hands (except Dark Eldar of course, but we all knew that) which is why GW should go back to the WD and PDF army list system rather than give full codexes to a handful of chosen armies.

Vladsimpaler wrote:
The newest IG book destroyed the Catachan uniqueness but the fluff doesn't support the changes all that much.

The Catachans fight completely different from Cadians.

The Catachans are stealth based and close combat based. Like I said above, an army of Rambo.

The Cadians are the stereotypical modern day army, and fight the enemy head on.

You have been just talking about the illusions in your mind.

However,the "uniqueness" you mentioned above, is not support by the most basic rules and background settings at all.

Both catachans and cadians are non-reformed human. Althrough catachans has better combat skills,they are still normal human with better combat skills. Their profiles setting must not conflict with basic background settings. So they cannot be S4, they cannot be T4, they cannot be I5 or A2.

So they are transparently lower than average level of "close combat-based" units. How can you design a "close combat-based" army with such units?

As someone with a hefty BA force I'd be looking forward only to special characters and a themed dreadnought. The existing furioso is dull (and heavy) and there isn't so much as a forgeworld BA dread.

I've got the FW terminator parts on one squad and the Space Hulk terminators, so a blood drop and chalice terminator set wouldn't give me much (I already have 23 terminators, just in case).

Vanguard veterans have served me well for my veteran assault squads that I've filled out with plastics plus molds of the BA wing iconography - again, already able to field 30 jump troops plus 10 jump death company. The foot mobile death company models are still some of the best GW models IMHO. Although the ability to make jump death company without resorting to bitz or free hand painting would be nice for new BA players - my converted jump DC are some of my oldest models and in need of updating. Blinged jump packs for certain!

tokugawa wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:
The newest IG book destroyed the Catachan uniqueness but the fluff doesn't support the changes all that much.

The Catachans fight completely different from Cadians.

The Catachans are stealth based and close combat based. Like I said above, an army of Rambo.

The Cadians are the stereotypical modern day army, and fight the enemy head on.

You have been just talking about the illusions in your mind.

However,the "uniqueness" you mentioned above, is not support by the most basic rules and background settings at all.

Both catachans and cadians are non-reformed human. Althrough catachans has better combat skills,they are still normal human with better combat skills. Their profiles setting must not conflict with basic background settings. So they cannot be S4, they cannot be T4, they cannot be I5 or A2.

So they are transparently lower than average level of "close combat-based" units. How can you design a "close combat-based" army with such units?

Is it really that hard to imagine? WS 4, more close combat options, special units, jungle related rules, special characters, tank variants, BAM sub codex. This is exactly the same as "durr lets make another SM codex!", except this time the basic trooper is actually different than green tactical marine, red tactical marine, blue tactical marine.

I think perhaps this thread would now be best served in a different board...

ph34r wrote:

I disagree that GW FAQs are generally unsatisfactory. Remember that the most recent FAQ was for Codex: Imperial Guard, and it admirably solved every ambiguity or issue I had with the Codex (Valkyrie/Vendetta measurement to model vs. measurement to base, orders to allies, GKTs in Valkyries, mortar/MoO multiple bombardment silliness). I believe that you too found this FAQ satisfactory, or at least said so at the time.

Some FAQs are better, some are worse. IG was one of the better ones. The FAQs still require opponents permission to use.

A lot of people bring up this point about GW FAQs being "optional." In practice I have never seen or heard of anyone who refuses to accept the GW ruling, nor any event that does so.

ph34r wrote:This is exactly the same as "durr lets make another SM codex!", except this time the basic trooper is actually different than green tactical marine, red tactical marine, blue tactical marine.

True, but it's mostly in the other areas of the FOC (HQ, Elites, etc.) that the different Marines get their options.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Dark Angels are stupidly easy to fit into the normal Imperial marine codex so I'm not even going to go there.

But Dark Angels have DEATHWING ASSAULT! No other space marines have this! This makes them very different - so different that their terminators are PAINTED A DIFFERENT COLOR THAN THE REST OF THE ARMY!!! No other space marines do this!!! There is no way you could fit 2 armies that are so clearly different into a single list. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tokugawa wrote:So they are transparently lower than average level of "close combat-based" units. How can you design a "close combat-based" army with such units?

You see, in 40k there are these things called "points"...

Sprues for BA Veterans and Death Company would be welcome.

My answer:

MOAR WIN

Fetterkey wrote:

ph34r wrote:

I disagree that GW FAQs are generally unsatisfactory. Remember that the most recent FAQ was for Codex: Imperial Guard, and it admirably solved every ambiguity or issue I had with the Codex (Valkyrie/Vendetta measurement to model vs. measurement to base, orders to allies, GKTs in Valkyries, mortar/MoO multiple bombardment silliness). I believe that you too found this FAQ satisfactory, or at least said so at the time.

Some FAQs are better, some are worse. IG was one of the better ones. The FAQs still require opponents permission to use.

A lot of people bring up this point about GW FAQs being "optional." In practice I have never seen or heard of anyone who refuses to accept the GW ruling, nor any event that does so.

I've heard of people here on Dakka denounce using the FAQs on occasion. Something that improves the ability of everyone to read the rules should not be optional.