If their captain wasn't such a mangina I'd root wholeheartedly for the Shepherd guys, although if you throw a line to foul my propeller in the Antarctic you're trying to kill me, and I'd ram you. Looks like they did.
I've seen the show Whale wars which I think is on their flag ship the steve irwin? Either way I support what they do, but what they do is also by international law terrorism. I am a huge animal rights supporter, but the level that these people go to is crossing a fine line. Sonic weaponry is a less leathal that is incredably painful to the recipient. Also those "stink bombs" have hit japaniese sailors before, and sent them to the hospital. Legally as long as a nation says it's whaling to collect tissue samples it is legal, and however much I may disagree their is a fine line that these anit whalers cross. Just look at the symbol on their boat, pronouncing piratism!!!
They are doing this while flying the flag of my country, that just doesn't sit right with me. If these fethers are so hardcore they should just fly the black banner and do what they claim to be doing.
I am entirely against the hunting of these majestic and intelligent animals.
If this form of protest was actually effective then I commend the crew of the sea shepherd, perhaps the discussion and continued media interest is investment enough.
The hunt should stop. The notion of 'research' is highly insulting.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:I am entirely against the hunting of these majestic and intelligent animals.
If this form of protest was actually effective then I commend the crew of the sea shepherd, perhaps the discussion and continued media interest is investment enough.
The hunt should stop. The notion of 'research' is highly insulting.
Believe me I agree, and if I was rich ya I would donate money to fund their operations, but their is still a line that has to be drawn. I hate to think like that but the soldier in me see's the black and white, and says if we allow and support this then we support future actions like thi on other issues that some may not agree with.
BrookM wrote:Why the feth do those witches fly the dutch flag so proudly? Sons of bitches. Bah, registered or not, they don't deserve the right to fly it.
They have to. They are a flagged Dutch vessel.
They need a red or black flag too. They already have smelly guys with neckbeards. they just need some brass cannon and a parrot.
On the positive if you're going to be a er, whalers are the ones to be ers to. Its like watching Inglorious Basterds. If something really icky happens to the Nazis, its ok because they are, you know, Nazis.
I just want to see them go at it with hooks, cutlasses, and cannon, hopefully on the new Discovery 3D channel.
This makes me laugh. I'm whole heartedly against the Japanese commercial whaling under the really flimsy guise of research, but the Sea Shepherd people are just such incompetent idiots that watching bad things happen to them is just good TV.
lord_blackfang wrote:Might makes right. Until the underdog starts fighting back, anyway.
Very true, only result from force is escalation of it.
Except for Hitler and Stalin and Genghis Khan and Alexander and the Texas patriots and Father Hidalgo and US revolutionaries and Army of the Potomac and Wellington and all the others of course.
i just found it funny how the whalers said the speed boat hit them. the speed boat was at a dead stop and was getting pounded to gak by those water cannons but yet they ran into them. nice PR spin on that one....
usernamesareannoying wrote:i just found it funny how the whalers said the speed boat hit them. the speed boat was at a dead stop and was getting pounded to gak by those water cannons but yet they ran into them. nice PR spin on that one....
ya I wraped that around my head a few times and still give a big ole HUH
I am just waiting for the whalers start to defend their ships with real firearms which by international law they are allowed to do. Now that will make for good TV.
The worse that could happen with one of the activists were killed is a lengthy court battle that would amount to nothing and maybe even a stern warning or fine for the activists. Also, if they keep on attacking the Japanese Ships in international waters the Japanese nation can escort the whalers with military vessels. I do not think the activists would provoke a confrontation then.
Actually, there is video footage of the speed boat going to cut off the whaler. Regardless of how you try and spin it on either, that much is irrefutable. Maybe the whalers decided turning to one side would be a drag and should be condemned for it, but the activists were dumb enough to try and park their boat in front of them.
I suffer from whale guilt. By that, I mean I feel guilty I don't care as much as I should. Everyone tells me how amazing whales are, and how we should keep the sea teeming with millions of the buggers, but when the entire population of Africa is starving, there's suicide bombs and missiles going off across the Middle East, and countries like China are still oppressing free speech, I find it very difficult to work up anything more that vague indignation about whales. White horned rhinos, and other heavily endangered species, sure, but the Japanese industry isn't large enough to put a serious dent in the whale population of the world.
With a huge vessel coming at you no matter the angle the footage is taken it always looks like it is berring down. I use to cross the Hudson river and had to dodge huge cargo ships all the time. They all look like they are barring down on you till they pass.
usernamesareannoying wrote:i just found it funny how the whalers said the speed boat hit them. the speed boat was at a dead stop and was getting pounded to gak by those water cannons but yet they ran into them. nice PR spin on that one....
here's why,
Ships
Don't
Have
Brakes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pipboy101 wrote:I am just waiting for the whalers start to defend their ships with real firearms which by international law they are allowed to do. Now that will make for good TV.
Exactly, but as noted, they need to employ brass cannon and carronade. There will also HAVE to be a boarding, complete with appropriate soundtrack, with guys with knives in their mouths swinging from ropes, and a parrot.
usernamesareannoying wrote:i just found it funny how the whalers said the speed boat hit them. the speed boat was at a dead stop and was getting pounded to gak by those water cannons but yet they ran into them. nice PR spin on that one....
here's why,
Ships
Don't
Have
Breaks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pipboy101 wrote:I am just waiting for the whalers start to defend their ships with real firearms which by international law they are allowed to do. Now that will make for good TV.
Exactly, but as noted, they need to employ brass cannon and carronade. There will also HAVE to be a boarding, complete with appropriate soundtrack, with guys with knives in their mouths swinging from ropes, and a parrot.
Some of the big container and crude carriers can take miles to stop from cruising speed. Miles. Now the whaling ships aren't that big but if the boat halted a hundred yards a head of them there's a good chance the whaling ship couldn't stop in time.
And as I said before, the Sea Shepherd people are just stupid and incompetent enough not to realize this.
Tyyr wrote:Some of the big container and crude carriers can take miles to stop from cruising speed. Miles. Now the whaling ships aren't that big but if the boat halted a hundred yards a head of them there's a good chance the whaling ship couldn't stop in time.
And as I said before, the Sea Shepherd people are just stupid and incompetent enough not to realize this.
look out!!! out steering AND our brakes are out!!! AHHHHH!!!
You know I had always heard the stereotype that asians were bad drivers.......I just didn't know it was possible to be THAT bad to the point your making a name for yourselves at sea!
TBH, I really, really wish the Japanese would grow some goddamn balls and just shoot at the fethers. That would stop them within a week, and since it's international waters, the gloves are off.
Also "The brakes are out on the ship" is now a new Dakka meme. The Great Gwar decrees it
I mean, seriously, if they actually just shot these Terrorists to hell and back, what would happen? Nothing, that's what.
TBH, I really, really wish the Japanese would grow some goddamn balls and just shoot at the fethers. That would stop them within a week, and since it's international waters, the gloves are off.
Also "The brakes are out on the ship" is now a new Dakka meme. The Great Gwar decrees it
I mean, seriously, if they actually just shot these Terrorists to hell and back, what would happen? Nothing, that's what.
To be fair, the Japanese are flagrantly violating treaties by the whale hunting. If the Japanese attack, the Dutch or Australians could technically consider themselves in a state of war with them then. At that point I would suggest a food war. They can meet in the nearest football stadium in brisbane and pelt each other with their finest national dishes, until the other side gives in or passes out from dodging bowls of sushi/dutch coffee cans.
Frazzled wrote:To be fair, the Japanese are flagrantly violating treaties by the whale hunting.
|Perhaps if you play by RAI. RAW they are more than permitted.
If the Japanese attack, the Dutch or Australians could technically consider themselves in a state of war with them then.
And the fact that the US and Japan are as inseparable as pig from it's excrement doesn't make that a non-starter? If anything attacks Japan, whether its Australia, the Crazy Half of Korea or the Reds in China, the US (minus the Great Republic of Texas of course) will help.
TBH, I really, really wish the Japanese would grow some goddamn balls and just shoot at the fethers. That would stop them within a week, and since it's international waters, the gloves are off.
Also "The brakes are out on the ship" is now a new Dakka meme. The Great Gwar decrees it
I mean, seriously, if they actually just shot these Terrorists to hell and back, what would happen? Nothing, that's what.
then the whales would get involved and we'd have an all out inter species war... it'd be anarchy.
TBH, I really, really wish the Japanese would grow some goddamn balls and just shoot at the fethers. That would stop them within a week, and since it's international waters, the gloves are off.
Also "The brakes are out on the ship" is now a new Dakka meme. The Great Gwar decrees it
I mean, seriously, if they actually just shot these Terrorists to hell and back, what would happen? Nothing, that's what.
then the whales would get involved and we'd have an all out inter species war... it'd be anarchy.
Then we just bribe whales and tell them to attack something.
Frazzled wrote:To be fair, the Japanese are flagrantly violating treaties by the whale hunting.
|Perhaps if you play by RAI. RAW they are more than permitted.
If we all played RAW Gwar, you wouldn't be here posting this now would you...
Gwar! wrote:So yeah, bye guys! Looks like I got a Month Ban for posting a pic with a naughty word in it! TBFH I didn't even realise it had it in.
So rather than just edit the pic, I get banned! And Apparently, It was going to be a Permaban, but Waaagh_Gonads decided to just make it a month.
So, anyway, see ya. I won't be coming back this time. Yeah, you can all cheer and be happy now.
know I am not helping my case by posting this, but right now, I don't particularly care.
Who would have thought they would ban think about permabanning Gwar only days after he forked over money eh?
Nows the time to practice what you preach dear boy...
The funny thing is that was one of the most advanced speedboats on the planet, and had stealth capabilities. It had recently set a world record.
To be fair, the Japanese are flagrantly violating treaties by the whale hunting.
The japanese fishing industry doesn't care much for treaties. They also hunt illegal amounts of tuna and other more standard catches, and have for years.
Hahah. Yeah, that's my point. In ecology we have a term for things like whales and pandas- Charismatic Macrofauna. The big fluffy things that make people go "awww!" and spend money on conservation. But really, conservation cash should be spent on less glamorous but more important stuff. Like nitrate pollution, or waste management in general!
(My previous work was a lot of agricultural ecology, so while I'm all for saving the planet, I wish people would be a bit more sensible about it all!)
The big fluffy things that make people go "awww!" and spend money on conservation. But really, conservation cash should be spent on less glamorous but more important stuff. Like nitrate pollution, or waste management in general!
Environmental degradation is firstly a personal issue, and an economic one a distant second. People feel the loss of megafauna strongly, they are iconic to the natural life of the planet, and their loss many would say is considerably more damaging than the loss of something like the japanese whaling industry. I'm inclined to agree personally. Biodiversity and iconic animals are significantly more important to the majority of the world than fishing industry profits. Not everything valuable has a direct dollar value attached (though the existence of the humpback whale is worth a hell of a lot more in merchandising, movies, and many other capitalistic items than it's meat is).
ShumaGorath wrote:(though the existence of the humpback whale is worth a hell of a lot more in merchandising, movies, and many other capitalistic items than it's meat is).
That and they have to keep in touch with their alien friends so they don't come visit and accidently destroy the Earth with their communication equipment.
The big fluffy things that make people go "awww!" and spend money on conservation. But really, conservation cash should be spent on less glamorous but more important stuff. Like nitrate pollution, or waste management in general!
Environmental degradation is firstly a personal issue, and an economic one a distant second. People feel the loss of megafauna strongly, they are iconic to the natural life of the planet, and their loss many would say is considerably more damaging than the loss of something like the japanese whaling industry. I'm inclined to agree personally. Biodiversity and iconic animals are significantly more important to the majority of the world than fishing industry profits. Not everything valuable has a direct dollar value attached (though the existence of the humpback whale is worth a hell of a lot more in merchandising, movies, and many other capitalistic items than it's meat is).
Blah blah blah I still don't hear any 'yar matey's going on...
The big fluffy things that make people go "awww!" and spend money on conservation. But really, conservation cash should be spent on less glamorous but more important stuff. Like nitrate pollution, or waste management in general!
Environmental degradation is firstly a personal issue, and an economic one a distant second. People feel the loss of megafauna strongly, they are iconic to the natural life of the planet, and their loss many would say is considerably more damaging than the loss of something like the japanese whaling industry. I'm inclined to agree personally. Biodiversity and iconic animals are significantly more important to the majority of the world than fishing industry profits. Not everything valuable has a direct dollar value attached (though the existence of the humpback whale is worth a hell of a lot more in merchandising, movies, and many other capitalistic items than it's meat is).
That's not what I was getting at, really. Gah. I'm a little bit drunk, and this is a complex topic that is hard to get across. (not meaning to excuse bad explanation, but I don't feel like writing an essay tonight).
Whether people feel the loss of the megafauna strongly is neither here nor there- they also feel the loss of celebrities and so on. And sure, the Japanese shouldn't be whaling. But there are limited resources to be applied to these things, and I'd much prefer it if they were applied to stuff like soil diversity (nematodes aren't glamourous, but goddamnit they are important), or research into slightly alternate feeds for cattle to dramatically lessen their methane output, or preventative veterinary medicine as opposed to widespread dosing, which leads to drug resistance, which no drug company is going to be motivated to fix, because the profits on veterinary drugs are even lower than the profits on drugs for diseases poor people get. The list goes on. The field in general is massively underfunded, with way too much effort going into preserving species that don't really contribute much to biodiversity. I mean, sure, it's one more species that's there instead of not being there, but look at the effect on the ecosystem as a whole- it probably doesn't matter so much then. Nothing in my post was about fishing industry profits (indeed, I feel the fishing industry is one that requires a huge overhall if it is going to be still viable in the next century). Do you see what I'm saying? Because it seems to me that your post was addressing a point I wasn't making at all. (No harm in that, I wasn't very clear in my initial post). I believe strongly in environmental conservation, but I also accept that resources are limited and must be spent rationally, not emotionally. (Though obviously, if you have a few quid left over, try and save the whales. It's not like I hate them or anything. Ideal world, we'd live in perfect harmony with nature.)
I think that using a boat that cool to run around throwing stinkbombs at whalers (And you've got to admit, fishermen are used to smells) is a heinous crime in its own right.
I honestly support whaling. How is it any different from us killing thousands of chickens and cows and pigs a year.
And before you say "well thos animals are stupid(or some variation) they wernt when thay were in the wild.
Besides there studing the whales on those vessels and all captain whatever wants is publicity and is a dick. HE FAKED BEING SHOT.
It's massively different, because we control the populations of domesticated animals. But hey, if you want to start the world's first humpbacked whale farm, be my guest.
The Japanese should stop trying to ram whale hunting down the neck of the world community under the disguise of "national culture and reaction against western imperialism" when in reality it is an unpopular government pork barrel project.
The Sea Shepherd people have crossed a line. They have become dangerously like the people who shoot abortion doctors or dig up the bones of research scientists' mothers. They should stop too.
garret wrote:I honestly support whaling. How is it any different from us killing thousands of chickens and cows and pigs a year.
And before you say "well thos animals are stupid(or some variation) they wernt when thay were in the wild.
Besides there studing the whales on those vessels and all captain whatever wants is publicity and is a dick. HE FAKED BEING SHOT.
Controlled caged domesticated populations vs harvesting endangered species. You do the math Einstein.
This actually has me interested in something. From some quick research it appears that the whale meat market is not that strong. The most recent data I found (a 2005 Icelandic report as to why whaling was not economically viable for them) puts the price of whale meat in the far east at between $70 and $200 USD/kg with total consumption of whale meat in Japan being approximately 3,000 tons per anum. Now, the Japanese claim that it's part of their culture, etc. but when that little meat is consumed at that high of a price how is that part of the culture as a whole? To give you an idea of how much whale meat is eaten per year in Japan it's about 0.023kg, or 23 grams of whale meat per person at the cost of between $1.61 and $4.60 per morsel. That's nothing. There are more grams of fat in your average burger than whale meat consumed by your average Japanese citizen in a given year. You can't compare whaling in Japan to the consumption of domesticated animals like cows, chickens, and hogs in other parts of the world because its so utterly inconsequential. If you eliminated whaling entirely you'd be denying them 23grams of protein over the course of an entire year, I think they'll survive without one piece of sushi.
When something is that scare and that expensive how is it a part of the culture anymore? If you want to say its a tradition then fine, do it traditionally. Grab a wooden boat and a hand thrown harpoon and get to it. Keep that tradition alive.
I'm just really not grasping the Japanese position on this beyond anything besides just trying to piss in the face of the rest of the world.
Tyyr wrote:This actually has me interested in something. From some quick research it appears that the whale meat market is not that strong. The most recent data I found (a 2005 Icelandic report as to why whaling was not economically viable for them) puts the price of whale meat in the far east at between $70 and $200 USD/kg with total consumption of whale meat in Japan being approximately 3,000 tons per anum. Now, the Japanese claim that it's part of their culture, etc. but when that little meat is consumed at that high of a price how is that part of the culture as a whole? To give you an idea of how much whale meat is eaten per year in Japan it's about 0.023kg, or 23 grams of whale meat per person at the cost of between $1.61 and $4.60 per morsel. That's nothing. There are more grams of fat in your average burger than whale meat consumed by your average Japanese citizen in a given year. You can't compare whaling in Japan to the consumption of domesticated animals like cows, chickens, and hogs in other parts of the world because its so utterly inconsequential. If you eliminated whaling entirely you'd be denying them 23grams of protein over the course of an entire year, I think they'll survive without one piece of sushi.
When something is that scare and that expensive how is it a part of the culture anymore? If you want to say its a tradition then fine, do it traditionally. Grab a wooden boat and a hand thrown harpoon and get to it. Keep that tradition alive.
I'm just really not grasping the Japanese position on this beyond anything besides just trying to piss in the face of the rest of the world.
very solid evidence I must say. I agree makes very little sense with figures like that.
Whales are used for other stuff though, aren' t they? Like perfume and lipstick - cosmetics and stuff?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus, the person who compared whale-hunting to chicken-farming made me face-palm so hard, I nearly broke my forehead.
They were at one time. I don't believe they are now. Most of that duty has been taken over for synthetics. I wouldn't want to try and market a whale derived cosmetic in today's society.
Besides, the quantity of whales harvested is still low, only about 1,000 I believe. You can support the cosmetics industry on that. Maybe some ultra high-end stuff but nothing with any real economic impact.
Oldgrue wrote:And from the (questionably) pro-human perspective: $5 million boat to preserve whales, or $5 million to feed and clothe starving humans....
Neither I particularly like but one I can exploit far more efficiently. Leave the bloody whalers alone.
You do realize that they are poaching? Those poor innocent whalers.
ShumaGorath wrote:You do realize that they are poaching? Those poor innocent whalers.
Given my long standing misanthropy I understand your confusion. My lack of empathy for humanity is well founded.
But you seem to have me confused for someone who prioritizes 'endangered' animals over Humans. I suspect i think of the whales far more than they think of me yet neither of us really cares for the other. Octopi are measurably more intelligent than multi ton oceanic roombas while just as likely to be on my menu. So when one well-intentioned group of humans starts dumping millions of dollars into saving a Whale rather than staving off the suffering of a being they can communicate with I find their empathy both touching and masturbatory.
Perhaps I don't hold poaching to the same level of urgency as the enlightened self interest of caring for humans in need. Perhaps I'm wrong and a $5million boat is just what our own suffering species needs. However its just as likely that the investment of millions of dollars can actually help develop many humans as contributing members of society. That $5 million is sorely needed in minor social projects like education.
So when one well-intentioned group of humans starts dumping millions of dollars into saving a Whale rather than staving off the suffering of a being they can communicate with I find their empathy both touching and masturbatory.
Because billion dollar food aid packages have been sooo successful.
Perhaps I don't hold poaching to the same level of urgency as the enlightened self interest of caring for humans in need. Perhaps I'm wrong and a $5million boat is just what our own suffering species needs. However its just as likely that the investment of millions of dollars can actually help develop many humans as contributing members of society. That $5 million is sorely needed in minor social projects like education.
Five million dollars is nothing. It's a drop in the bucket, and it's a damn big bucket. Argue about the strange and unintelligent use of a world class stealth/speed boat, but arguing against a seemingly effectual anti poaching campaign with a measurable effect and clearly possible goals by saying that the miniscule amount of money they utilize to (seemingly effectively) combat one problem by saying that that same amount of money would be better served by being thrown at a problem, which already receives hundreds of billions annually globally (feeding poor people) is dumb.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ounumen wrote:I hate that douche. I wish the Japs would spill a bit of blood and give me a reason to watch that stupid show. Oh well next up fur wars rawr!!
I said the same thing about deadliest catch. Orange country choppers too. Honestly, if we could get the Japanese to start killing our reality show crews we'd all be better off. Jersey Shore is first.
There not really poaching.
The whale laws re pretty much agrred upon except by japan. and since it is international waters there really not breking a law.
garret wrote:There not really poaching.
The whale laws re pretty much agrred upon except by japan. and since it is international waters there really not breking a law.
Thats definitely true, but it's also somewhat of a technicality. Overfishing on neutral waters is a very contentious issue, especially with local fishers. Living in maine I hear a lot of flak sent their way from local fishers following laws that they can't be bothered to. Fish, and even moreso whales are not territorial, overfishing in international waters damages fisheries everywhere. The laws were established globally specifically because of that fact. Overfishing is quite similar to airborne pollution, it's not particularly easy to regulate but it's effects are world wide.
Im not saying whaling isnt bad im just saying it is no different from us eating thousnds of cows and pigs. Or hunting and eating deer and wild pigs or bears. if we stop killing all those animals we have to stop all of those.
Sea sheaprd has noble goals. but there going about it all wrong.
The only true way to change something in peacefully.
violence never trully changed anything. Remember ghandi,ceser chavez or mlk.
Oldgrue wrote:
Perhaps I don't hold poaching to the same level of urgency as the enlightened self interest of caring for humans in need. Perhaps I'm wrong and a $5million boat is just what our own suffering species needs. However its just as likely that the investment of millions of dollars can actually help develop many humans as contributing members of society. That $5 million is sorely needed in minor social projects like education.
Alternatively, the Japanese allow the whaling industry to die and use the subsidies KK mentioned in order to develop an industry with a chance at profitability.
Im not saying whaling isnt bad im just saying it is no different from us eating thousnds of cows and pigs. Or hunting and eating deer and wild pigs or bears.
It is though. Firstly many of these species are either endangered or at risk of becoming so. Secondly, and this isn't relegated to whaling alone, japanese (and most of asia) large net fishing despite moratoriums risks the destruction of global fisheries and serious damage to the stocks ability to reproduce.
Sea sheaprd has noble goals. but there going about it all wrong.
The only true way to change something in peacefully.
violence never trully changed anything. Remember ghandi,ceser chavez or mlk.
They aren't violent in their methods, and violence has changed a hell of a lot of things. They are essentially damaging the industries ability to be profitable, which is the most effective thing they could attack.
garret wrote:japan doesnt really have the land to raise all that meat so they kinda have to fish that much.
Japan imports the vast majority of it's food. They don't have to do anything. They are not self supporting. It's also not only unnecessary, but dangerous for them to fish through moratoriums and bans. You can't replenish a fish population that's been fished to extinction, and that would cause them a hell of a lot bigger a problem then slightly reduced takes.
dogma wrote:They also regularly miss quota because of all the protest activity directed towards them.
Excellent.
yup, agreed.
considering how many species of whales are on the endangered list, and how many will be, i doesnt really matter how many are taken, sooner or later there wont be any.
whaling, for what ever reason is outdated, but then again as a canadian i cant stand on a moral highground and say its evil, we after all have our own demons when it comes to harvesting mammals from the oceans. i'll just say i support the activites of the whale lovers, and hope that next time they do manage to foul a screw. (that is if they ever get another chance).
1.) A Japanese ship killing whales- ILLEGAL
2.) Fishing in Australian waters without a permission- ILLEGAL
3.) Ramming a boat, and wrecking it- ILLEGAL
4.) Injuring people on the boat- ILLEGAL
It's completely legal. It's done via a loophole, but it's still legal. It's these idiot Whale Wars terrorists who are performing acts of Piracy and other Illegal acts.
It's completely legal. It's done via a loophole, but it's still legal. It's these idiot Whale Wars terrorists who are performing acts of Piracy and other Illegal acts.
whales are nearly extinct, they're protected by law mate!
It's completely legal. It's done via a loophole, but it's still legal. It's these idiot Whale Wars terrorists who are performing acts of Piracy and other Illegal acts.
whales are nearly extinct, they're protected by law mate!
Yeah, because decades of having a grand total of TWO nations hunting them has ensured they are "nearly" extinct.
Also, check your facts. Japan have the right from the Whaling organisation thing (can't remember the name) to issue Science Permits to hunt whales. It's legal, plain and simple.
Tyyr wrote:When something is that scare and that expensive how is it a part of the culture anymore? If you want to say its a tradition then fine, do it traditionally. Grab a wooden boat and a hand thrown harpoon and get to it. Keep that tradition alive.
I truly hate all this culture they are thowing at us, if it really is a part of their culture, why didnt they find Australia first? I honestly dont believe for years they managed to sail from Japan to Antartica to hunt whales.
Truth is they screwed up whaling in their area now they travel to the bottom of the earth to feed the greedy and arrogant rich of Japan
Squig_herder wrote:Truth is they screwed up [Something] in their area now they travel[Somewhere Else] to feed the greedy and arrogant rich of [Country]
Congrats, you just described 100% of countries on Earth.
It's completely legal. It's done via a loophole, but it's still legal. It's these idiot Whale Wars terrorists who are performing acts of Piracy and other Illegal acts.
Not all of it. There is certainly a number of vessels fishing legitimately for scientific research, but then there is another fleet claiming that and not actually doing so. The amount of meat hitting the market is markedly above what should be possible given capturing and tagging, and harvesting for scientific research, especially given the "quotas" regulated by their government. There are legal ways to kill a white rhino, shouting "It's coming right for us" before bagging your third for the day is poaching.
Yeah, because decades of having a grand total of TWO nations hunting them has ensured they are "nearly" extinct.
Also, check your facts. Japan have the right from the Whaling organisation thing (can't remember the name) to issue Science Permits to hunt whales. It's legal, plain and simple.
Given the largely unregulated aspect of central asian fishing through the 80's and 90's your not particularly accurate here. Sharkfin soup is delicious, and very rarely is it particularly legal if you follow its production down the chain.
Squig_herder wrote:Truth is they screwed up [Something] in their area now they travel[Somewhere Else] to feed the greedy and arrogant rich of [Country]
Congrats, you just described 100% of countries on Earth.
this isn't the point though, the point is that Japan keeps on killing a nearly extinct species and noone seems to give a feth!
This thread really needed to be called Japanese Run Over Bob Barker.
Oldgrue wrote:Perhaps I don't hold poaching to the same level of urgency as the enlightened self interest of caring for humans in need. Perhaps I'm wrong and a $5million boat is just what our own suffering species needs. However its just as likely that the investment of millions of dollars can actually help develop many humans as contributing members of society. That $5 million is sorely needed in minor social projects like education.
False argument. If people wanted to properly fund education or any other social project, the money could be found by cutting back on the billions we spend on plasma screen tvs and gossip magazines. Animal welfare and social programs are not mutually exclusive.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote:The Japanese "whaling industry" is a pork barrel project.
The hobbies of the rich and upper middle class have a strange way of being subsidised by government... where the halls of power just happen to be dominated by the rich and upper class.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
garret wrote:There not really poaching.
The whale laws re pretty much agrred upon except by japan. and since it is international waters there really not breking a law.
The Japanese are signatories to treaties that stop whale harvesting. They continue to whale under the claim that it's for scientific purposes, with the sale of whale meat as a by product - they pretend they're collecting specimen samples.
This is obviously a lie, and while governments continue to attempt resolve this diplomatically, ultimately this could be taken to international court.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gwar! wrote:
r3n3g8b0y wrote:Hmmm let's see..
1.) A Japanese ship killing whales- ILLEGAL
BZZZZZZZZZZ WRONG.
It's completely legal. It's done via a loophole, but it's still legal. It's these idiot Whale Wars terrorists who are performing acts of Piracy and other Illegal acts.
First up, no, the Japanese whaling is illegal. An illegal act performed under the guise of transparent lie is, in fact, still illegal. There are reasons multiple countries have deployed government vessels to the region to film the Japanese scientific expeditions.
Meanwhile, its very odd that you'd call the surveillance and acts of nuisance performed by the anti-whalers as piracy, but not complain about the whalers ramming a stationary vessel.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gwar! wrote:whales are nearly extinct, they're protected by law mate!
Yeah, because decades of having a grand total of TWO nations hunting them has ensured they are "nearly" extinct.
The following breeds of whale are presently classified as endangered by the IUCN;
Northern Right Whale
Bowhead Whale
Blue Whale
Fin Whale
Sei Whale
Humpback Whale
Sperm Whale
Vaquita
Baiji
Indus Susu
I notice that the Whale that forms the Bulk of the Research Hunt, the Mink Whale, is not on that list, and the Fin Whale was limited to a Tiny Tiny Quota of just 50.
Gwar! wrote:I notice that the Whale that forms the Bulk of the Research Hunt, the Mink Whale, is not on that list, and the Fin Whale was limited to a Tiny Tiny Quota of just 50.
No, and the Fin whale isn't universally regarded as endangered, it is 'at risk' in some categories. My point was more about the idea of 'whales' being endangered or not. It depends on the species. That said, 50 out of a total population of 100,00, when a creature has a slow birth rate, is a fair whack.
My complaint about the Japanese action is that they signed on to stop commercial whaling and are acting illegally under a transparent ruse, it's a simple matter of international law. From a personal standpoint I do not believe that whaling cannot be done humanly. A grenade tipped harpoon fired on a creature in the wild is not certain to give a quick kill, in fact most kills are drawn out, during which time the whale suffers immensely. This is simply not the same thing as commercial farming of cows and chickens.
sebster wrote:This thread really needed to be called Japanese Run Over Bob Barker.
Oldgrue wrote:Perhaps I don't hold poaching to the same level of urgency as the enlightened self interest of caring for humans in need. Perhaps I'm wrong and a $5million boat is just what our own suffering species needs. However its just as likely that the investment of millions of dollars can actually help develop many humans as contributing members of society. That $5 million is sorely needed in minor social projects like education.
False argument. If people wanted to properly fund education or any other social project, the money could be found by cutting back on the billions we spend on plasma screen tvs and gossip magazines. Animal welfare and social programs are not mutually exclusive.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote:The Japanese "whaling industry" is a pork barrel project.
The hobbies of the rich and upper middle class have a strange way of being subsidised by government... where the halls of power just happen to be dominated by the rich and upper class.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
garret wrote:There not really poaching.
The whale laws re pretty much agrred upon except by japan. and since it is international waters there really not breking a law.
The Japanese are signatories to treaties that stop whale harvesting. They continue to whale under the claim that it's for scientific purposes, with the sale of whale meat as a by product - they pretend they're collecting specimen samples.
This is obviously a lie, and while governments continue to attempt resolve this diplomatically, ultimately this could be taken to international court.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gwar! wrote:
r3n3g8b0y wrote:Hmmm let's see..
1.) A Japanese ship killing whales- ILLEGAL
BZZZZZZZZZZ WRONG.
It's completely legal. It's done via a loophole, but it's still legal. It's these idiot Whale Wars terrorists who are performing acts of Piracy and other Illegal acts.
First up, no, the Japanese whaling is illegal. An illegal act performed under the guise of transparent lie is, in fact, still illegal. There are reasons multiple countries have deployed government vessels to the region to film the Japanese scientific expeditions.
Meanwhile, its very odd that you'd call the surveillance and acts of nuisance performed by the anti-whalers as piracy, but not complain about the whalers ramming a stationary vessel.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gwar! wrote:whales are nearly extinct, they're protected by law mate!
Yeah, because decades of having a grand total of TWO nations hunting them has ensured they are "nearly" extinct.
The following breeds of whale are presently classified as endangered by the IUCN;
Northern Right Whale
Bowhead Whale
Blue Whale
Fin Whale
Sei Whale
Humpback Whale
Sperm Whale
Vaquita
Baiji
Indus Susu
Gwar! wrote:
It's completely legal. It's done via a loophole, but it's still legal. It's these idiot Whale Wars terrorists who are performing acts of Piracy and other Illegal acts.
Neither of these statements is true.
The Japanese whale hunt is very clearly lacking a scientific basis (see the methodology of marine biologists). It doesn't matter if you call something scientific if it isn't actually scientific.
The actions of the protesters do not constitute piracy.
UNCLOS Article 101 wrote:
(a) any illegal acts of violence or detention, or any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed:
(i) on the high seas, against another ship or aircraft, or against persons or property on board such ship or aircraft;
(ii) against a ship, aircraft, persons or property in a place outside the jurisdiction of any State;
It isn't detention, as the activists are not preventing the whalers from leaving. It isn't depredation, as Japan does not own the whales being hunted. And it certainly isn't violence.
What would you call trying to deliberately sabotage a ship (lines in the props), launching stink-bombs at people, and blocking/cutting off the whaling vessels? I'd call that violence.
Gornall wrote:What would you call trying to deliberately sabotage a ship (lines in the props),
Sabotage isn't violent. One cannot injure, or abuse a machine.
Gornall wrote:
launching stink-bombs at people, and blocking/cutting off the whaling vessels? I'd call that violence.
The latter is certainly not violence. Not unless cutting people off in traffic is violence.
The former is not violent by any reasonable definition, as it certainly is not injurious, and it isn't particularly abusive in the sense that abuse must be communicated by physical force (where physical is a legal term, and not a scientific one).
I'm against the Japanese whaling.... but the sea sheppard guys make PETA look like a nursing home knitting group.
They are at the far end of the lefty nutbag environmentalist spectrum. I.e if the option for life was between you and an animal, the animal would live.
When did Dakka become full of hippies? I really don't care if the Japanese do this or not, its their damn money and resources! You people need to stop watching Star Trek V, and just chill out.
@Dogma: Sabotage is still illegal, and whats more, they are still committing acts of violence. Throwing stink bombs would still be considered assault. It isn't deadly violence, but it is violence nonetheless.
JEB_Stuart wrote:
@Dogma: Sabotage is still illegal,
Not in international waters when not in a state of war. You can do just about anything in international waters insofar as the court of authority has not interest in prosecuting the offense, which is generally the case for incidents which do not affect trade, or citizens of the same state.
JEB_Stuart wrote:
and whats more, they are still committing acts of violence. Throwing stink bombs would still be considered assault. It isn't deadly violence, but it is violence nonetheless.
It simply isn't. It isn't an action which causes injury, or abuse through physical force. Unless we're talking about actually hitting someone with the physical bomb, it doesn't qualify.
It also isn't assault. In its most general form assault refers to an action which causes a person to believe he is in imminent danger of violent harm. Since throwing stink bombs is not violent, and doesn't seem to indicate a desire to escalate an altercation, there is no assault charge. Harassment is another matter, but that's getting into an area which will never draw attention from any legal authority.
Either way, international law doesn't speak to a notion of assault, and the court of authority (the Netherlands) has made no attempt to file charges.
It's completely legal. It's done via a loophole, but it's still legal. It's these idiot Whale Wars terrorists who are performing acts of Piracy and other Illegal acts.
No it violates the loophole. One 5in deck gun shell across the bow will prove the legality of the law. I'll send $10 to help buy the deck gun.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dogma wrote:Sabotage isn't violent. One cannot injure, or abuse a machine.
Get real. Fouling a propeller or turning gear in in the Antarctic, with no hope of rescue, is attempted murder. Hence ramming the whalehuggers is viable self defense.
See why this is great? Both sides absolutely suck. Snipers where are you?!?
I tried to get my wife to buy me some whale bacon today but she wouldn't.
I figured the whale is already dead, and the bacon is there in the supermarket so I may as well find out for myself if whale meat is as fantastic as the Japanese government says it is.
garret wrote:Sea sheaprd has noble goals. but there going about it all wrong.
The only true way to change something in peacefully.
violence never trully changed anything. Remember ghandi,ceser chavez or mlk.
...wow. That's just wilful ignorance. Violence never changes anything? Remember Khan, Alexander, Caesar, Hitler, Eisenhower? Historically peaceful means have change little compared to what violence has.
r3n3g8b0y wrote:Hmmm let's see..
1.) A Japanese ship killing whales- ILLEGAL
I've been looking into this and from what I can tell it's not. First off there's the obvious thing to point out that the IWC (International Whaling Commission) has issued Japan a permit to harvest a certain quantity of whales each year and the Japanese are harvesting less than that. Now you might want to contest that it's a front for commerical whaling but even the IWC admits that the Japanese turn in their research data and it's actually quite useful. Now even if the IWC revoked the permit there's the issue that the IWC is not a law making body. It's really more of an alliance type organization. Their 1986 moritorium carries no real legal weight unless the signatories choose to enact their own laws in their own countries and then prosecute their own citizens.
2.) Fishing in Australian waters without a permission- ILLEGAL
Austrailia has claimed the Antarctic Ocean?
3.) Ramming a boat, and wrecking it- ILLEGAL
Intentionally, maybe. However from watching the footage the Ady Gil appears to still be under power or at least coasting forward still when she's hit. From the footage shown there's just about no way you'd ever get a conviction on the Japanese crew for ramming. Frankly it looks more like incompetent seamenship on the part of the Ady Gil's crew. They're... well they're idiots and don't realize that a 500 ton ship can't stop or turn on a dime. They paid for it by getting their nice boat all broke.
4.) Injuring people on the boat- ILLEGAL
One person cracked two ribs as a result of the aforementioned idiocy on their own part.
r3n3g8b0y wrote:whales are nearly extinct, they're protected by law mate!
Some are, but not the species the Japanese currently actively hunt. Even those that are endangered that the Japanese hunted at one point in the last 20 years were harvested in such low numbers as to be rather inconsequential.
r3n3g8b0y wrote:this isn't the point though, the point is that Japan keeps on killing a nearly extinct species and noone seems to give a feth!
See the above, you're just wrong.
sebster wrote:This thread really needed to be called Japanese Run Over Bob Barker.
I heartily endorse this idea.
sebster wrote:The Japanese are signatories to treaties that stop whale harvesting. They continue to whale under the claim that it's for scientific purposes, with the sale of whale meat as a by product - they pretend they're collecting specimen samples.
This is obviously a lie, and while governments continue to attempt resolve this diplomatically, ultimately this could be taken to international court.
Which given that the Japanese not only have a permit for harvesting these whales from the governing body of that treaty, the IWC has admitted the research they collect is top notch and useful, and that the japanese whaling industry requires subsidies to just break even... well I wish you the best of luck in that case. You'll need it in any court that looks at facts and the letter of the law rather than "DAAAWWWW look at da purdy whales!" emotions.
sebster wrote:Meanwhile, its very odd that you'd call the surveillance and acts of nuisance performed by the anti-whalers as piracy, but not complain about the whalers ramming a stationary vessel.
If you look at the video the Ady Gil was either under power when hit or recently under power. See my above reply on this subject. Proving they were rammed and not just incompetent seamen will be one hell of a case to have to make. Additionally, having your props fouled in the storm wracked and iceberg filled Antarctic Ocean thousands of miles from land and any chance of timely rescue is more than a nuisance. It borders on attempted murder.
The following breeds of whale are presently classified as endangered by the IUCN;
Fin Whale
Of which Japan has harvested 13 in the last 20 years.
Sei Whale
Of which Japan has harvested 492 in the last 20 years.
Sperm Whale
Of which Japan has harvested 45 in the last 20 years and is only classified as vulnerable not endangered.
The bulk of the breeds harvested consist of Byrde's whales and minke whales, 396 and 10,443 respectively over the course of 20 years. Byrde's whales are not even of concern in terms of population and but minke's do rate at least a minor concern though their total population is estimated to be around 770,000 animals world wide currently.
The bulk of the breeds harvested consist of Byrde's whales and minke whales, 396 and 10,443 respectively over the course of 20 years. Byrde's whales are not even of concern in terms of population and but minke's do rate at least a minor concern though their total population is estimated to be around 770,000 animals world wide currently.
Now how many are they harvesting unreported while operating under the guise of research? As is the crux of the issue. Japan is not the only nation in the world performing this research, why exactly do you think they are the only ones under such scrutiny?
Frazzled wrote:
Get real. Fouling a propeller or turning gear in in the Antarctic, with no hope of rescue, is attempted murder. Hence ramming the whalehuggers is viable self defense.
That depends entirely on sea conditions. Calling it attempted murder is just sensationalist nonsense. At the very worst its destruction of property, and manslaughter in the event of death or sinking. Neither of which are covered in international law.
Frazzled wrote:
Get real. Fouling a propeller or turning gear in in the Antarctic, with no hope of rescue, is attempted murder. Hence ramming the whalehuggers is viable self defense.
That depends entirely on sea conditions. Calling it attempted murder is just sensationalist nonsense. At the very worst its destruction of property, and manslaughter in the event of death or sinking. Neither of which are covered in international law.
Not at all. Sea conditions are irrelevant. If they can't steer in the Antarctic then they are stranded. In the Antartic that means you could be dead. The ship can use lethal response to defend itself.
Frazzled wrote: Get real. Fouling a propeller or turning gear in in the Antarctic, with no hope of rescue, is attempted murder. Hence ramming the whalehuggers is viable self defense.
That depends entirely on sea conditions. Calling it attempted murder is just sensationalist nonsense. At the very worst its destruction of property, and manslaughter in the event of death or sinking. Neither of which are covered in international law.
Not at all. Sea conditions are irrelevant. If they can't steer in the Antarctic then they are stranded. In the Antartic that means you could be dead. The ship can use lethal response to defend itself.
These ideas are not mutually exclusive. Nor does one refute the other.
Frazzled wrote:
Not at all. Sea conditions are irrelevant. If they can't steer in the Antarctic then they are stranded.In the Antartic that means you could be dead.
Sea conditions cannot be irrelevant if you're going to state that their presence in the Antarctic (a reference to water temperature no doubt) is relevant.
Frazzled wrote:
The ship can use lethal response to defend itself.
The possibility of death does not make an action murder. You require the intent to kill, and that is not provided by working to disable the ship on which the victims are located. The most you can indicate is deliberate negligence. Manslaughter at best.
Whats your point Shuma? If I'm Captain Bligh and you try to foul my gear in the middle of no where its ramming time.
Don't you see the beautiful symmetry here? Evil whaling captain vs. so suck they are evil eco terrorists. Its great. We should arm them both with armed clippers and watch them have at it for our mutual amusement. We win. The Whales win. Its total win win.
Frazzled wrote:Whats your point Shuma? If I'm Captain Bligh and you try to foul my gear in the middle of no where its ramming time.
Don't you see the beautiful symmetry here? Evil whaling captain vs. so suck they are evil eco terrorists. Its great. We should arm them both with armed clippers and watch them have at it for our mutual amusement. We win. The Whales win. Its total win win.
I agree 100%.
Except we should give the Whalers Man Portable MIRV Launchers from Fallout 3
Frazzled wrote:Whats your point Shuma? If I'm Captain Bligh and you try to foul my gear in the middle of no where its ramming time.
Don't you see the beautiful symmetry here? Evil whaling captain vs. so suck they are evil eco terrorists. Its great. We should arm them both with armed clippers and watch them have at it for our mutual amusement. We win. The Whales win. Its total win win.
I agree 100%.
Except we should give the Whalers Man Portable MIRV Launchers from Fallout 3
No dude no. Blackpowder brass cannon. Come on if we're going to do this thing lets do it right. Avast ye scurvy dogs!
Frazzled wrote:Whats your point Shuma? If I'm Captain Bligh and you try to foul my gear in the middle of no where its ramming time.
Yeah, wouldn't be illegal either. Not unless the court of jurisdiction (Japan) wanted to prosecute. It also wouldn't be murder, though possible manslaughter. Same as the activists.
Whats your point Shuma? If I'm Captain Bligh and you try to foul my gear in the middle of no where its ramming time.
You started your post with "not at all", and then you proceeded to not disagree with him. I didn't know you were a fox news caster.
Don't you see the beautiful symmetry here? Evil whaling captain vs. so suck they are evil eco terrorists. Its great. We should arm them both with armed clippers and watch them have at it for our mutual amusement. We win. The Whales win. Its total win win.
Why don't we actually enforce international accords, rather than relying on reality show tools to do it for us?
I agree 100%.
Except we should give the Whalers Man Portable MIRV Launchers from Fallout 3
Don't you have global warming somewhere that you could be not understanding?
The possibility of death does not make an action murder. You require the intent to kill, and that is not provided by working to disable the ship on which the victims are located. The most you can indicate is deliberate negligence. Manslaughter at best.
Under US law thats suffiicient risk for me to put a bullet in your head under the right of self defense. As you yourself pointed out, internationa law is minimal on the high seas, therefore its open to even more "interpretation." Or as we liked to say in the good old days:
Frazzled wrote:
Under US law thats suffiicient risk for me to put a bullet in your head under the right of self defense.
That's sufficient for you to make an argument under the doctrine of self defense, whether or not its a reasonable use of deadly force depends on the jury.
Either way, the whalers could open full fire on the protesters and the extent to which they were prosecuted would depend on the extent to which Japan would be forced by international pressure (unless someone else wanted to prosecute them under piracy laws).
Frazzled wrote:
As you yourself pointed out, internationa law is minimal on the high seas, therefore its open to even more "interpretation." Or as we liked to say in the good old days:
I was never attempting to say that the whalers were wrong. I was simply refuting the notion that tangling their propellers equates to murder.
dogma wrote:That's sufficient for you to make an argument under the doctrine of self defense, whether or not its a reasonable use of deadly force depends on the jury.
In Frazzes Juristiction, the Jury are more likely to go "Good on you for waiting so long before doing it"
Frazzled wrote:You're right, not murder. Attempted murder. Much better.
No provable intent to kill, no murder.
I could prove intent. Voluntary manslaughter at worst. Guess what-the opther side can blow you away if you are attempting voluntary manslughter. Although this is not the instance based on the video, the ship would well be in its rights to tear those boats apart and seize the mother ship. Preferably with katanas, tonfas, and sushi firing cannon.
The bulk of the breeds harvested consist of Byrde's whales and minke whales, 396 and 10,443 respectively over the course of 20 years. Byrde's whales are not even of concern in terms of population and but minke's do rate at least a minor concern though their total population is estimated to be around 770,000 animals world wide currently.
Now how many are they harvesting unreported while operating under the guise of research? As is the crux of the issue. Japan is not the only nation in the world performing this research, why exactly do you think they are the only ones under such scrutiny?
That's the number they are harvesting for research. That's the only whaling they are known to do. In fact they usually don't even fill their allowable quota from the IWC. They have no need to try and hide extras when they're leaving ~300 whales a year off their tag. Why generate even more bad publicity by harvesting outside their quota when they could simply take another 300 without violating the IWC permit? Additionally, the figure of approximately 3,000 tons of whale being consumed annually meshes quite well with the quantity of whales that they harvest under their research permits. So unless you're suggesting some huge underground whale meat black market that's how many whales they're taking. The Byrde's whales which are not even the least bit endangered and southern minke's who have a population of about 660,000 according to the IWC. Each year they harvest approximately 0.079% of the local minke population. So to be quite frank everyone screaming "The Japanese are going to hunt them to extinction!" is an idiot.
I think the Japanese are under this kind of scrutiny because they're an easier target. I think the Sea Shepherd group probably finds it a lot easier to harass and annoy a group of non-white whalers several thousand miles away from any where as opposed to a large group of white northern European fishers a few dozen or hundred miles from home. Hell, if you want to get pissy about someone whaling talk to the Norwegians who have upped their quotas of northern minke whales to over 1,000 on a population of 107,000 whales. That's about 0.93% of the population. Their impact on the local population is about 12 times greater than the Japanese influence on the southern minke population.
Something interesting that came up in looking for Norway's numbers, in reference to the calls of "It's illegal!" Norway filed an objection to the moratorium on whaling with IWC when it was first emplaced and consequently they are not bound by it at all. That's how much legal weight it carries.
Maybe the Sea Shepard people should go pick on the Alaskans. I'm fairly certain the natives' canoes can't cut the Steve Irwin in half. Then again, if the natives get inured by the stink bombs, they may start trying to harpoon the conservationists.
Frazzled wrote:
I could prove intent. Voluntary manslaughter at worst.
Yes, in the event that someone were actually killed, that is the case.
Frazzled wrote:
Guess what-the opther side can blow you away if you are attempting voluntary manslughter.
You can't attempt voluntary manslaughter. You can take a deliberate action, which then leads to the unintended death of an incidental victim. You can't try someone for attempted manslaughter. You might be able to use the presence of an incidentally threatening action as a defense against a murder, or even a manslaughter, charge but that's all a matter of the jury.
dogma wrote: You can't try someone for attempted manslaughter. You might be able to use the presence of an incidentally threatening action as a defense against a murder, or even a manslaughter, charge but that's all a matter of the jury.
Er, yes you can. Local states may call it by different things, but you most definitely can.
Frazzled wrote:
Er, yes you can. Local states may call it by different things, but you most definitely can.
Hmm, so you can. Didn't know that. Though it doesn't appear as though it would apply to this example. From my brief reading it seems like it should only apply to cases that are plead down from attempted murder, or instances in which emotion based statements are made in the course of battery (eg. hitting someone while yelling "I'll kill you").
sebster wrote: Animal welfare and social programs are not mutually exclusive.
Agreed, they're not mutually exclusive. I see them as significantly lower priority.
ShumaGorath wrote:Because billion dollar food aid packages have been sooo successful.
Foreign food aid packages have always been a bad idea. Whale conservation efforts (Big famous 32 year old ones!) should simply be lower priority than humans first locally, then overseas.
The effectiveness of how whale conservation uses that "drop in the bucket" is a testament to ingenuity leaving me to wonder how clever they could have been with $5million to the benefit of people.
I think the Japanese are under this kind of scrutiny because they're an easier target. I think the Sea Shepherd group probably finds it a lot easier to harass and annoy a group of non-white whalers several thousand miles away from any where as opposed to a large group of white northern European fishers a few dozen or hundred miles from home. Hell, if you want to get pissy about someone whaling talk to the Norwegians who have upped their quotas of northern minke whales to over 1,000 on a population of 107,000 whales. That's about 0.93% of the population. Their impact on the local population is about 12 times greater than the Japanese influence on the southern minke population.
Or it could be the fact that they utilize unnecessary lethal methods when operating in a sanctuary area recognized by the IWC to already be well tracked and slowly recovering. It could also be that since the initiation of "research" in 1988 the number of whales harvested by japan has doubled (current "research" is culling more than twice the number of whales initially required by the same program). It could also have something to do with the fact that only half of the ventures produced anything scientifically useful or verifiable and most didn't require lethal methodology.
A 2006 episode of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation's popular science show Catalyst, which strongly argued against whaling, reported that of the 18 year JARPA I program, which lethally obtained samples from 6800 whales, less than 55 peer-reviewed papers were produced, of which only 14 were claimed on the program to be relevant to the goals of the JARPA program, and that only four would require lethal sampling. Some of the research includes a paper named Fertilizability of ovine, bovine, and minke whales spermatazoa intracytoplasmically injected into bovine oocytes.[89] Joji Morishita of JARPA has said the number of samples was required in order to obtain statistically significant data. More detailed list of Scientific papers presented to IWC up to 2005.[2]
So lets see.
Double the numbers harvested currently (despite stocks remaining the same) as compared to the same studies initiated in 1988. - Check
Harvesting in an internationally recognized whale sanctuary. - Check
Utilizing lethal methods where they are not required and failing to produce anything of scientific merit or use. - Check
The IWC has repeatedly issued requests to the japanese government to deny requests for scientific lethal whale harvesting. Despite the questionable use and largely scientifically meaningless increase in the number of such takes the japanese government has continued to refuse. - Check
This certainly does all sound quite legitimate doesn't it?
Agreed, they're not mutually exclusive. I see them as significantly lower priority.
And not everyone agrees with you when one gets far better results with an infinitesimally small fraction of the funds the other receives.
garret wrote:Sea sheaprd has noble goals. but there going about it all wrong.
The only true way to change something in peacefully.
violence never trully changed anything. Remember ghandi,ceser chavez or mlk.
...wow. That's just wilful ignorance. Violence never changes anything? Remember Khan, Alexander, Caesar, Hitler, Eisenhower? Historically peaceful means have change little compared to what violence has.
r3n3g8b0y wrote:Hmmm let's see..
1.) A Japanese ship killing whales- ILLEGAL
I've been looking into this and from what I can tell it's not. First off there's the obvious thing to point out that the IWC (International Whaling Commission) has issued Japan a permit to harvest a certain quantity of whales each year and the Japanese are harvesting less than that. Now you might want to contest that it's a front for commerical whaling but even the IWC admits that the Japanese turn in their research data and it's actually quite useful. Now even if the IWC revoked the permit there's the issue that the IWC is not a law making body. It's really more of an alliance type organization. Their 1986 moritorium carries no real legal weight unless the signatories choose to enact their own laws in their own countries and then prosecute their own citizens.
2.) Fishing in Australian waters without a permission- ILLEGAL
Austrailia has claimed the Antarctic Ocean?
3.) Ramming a boat, and wrecking it- ILLEGAL
Intentionally, maybe. However from watching the footage the Ady Gil appears to still be under power or at least coasting forward still when she's hit. From the footage shown there's just about no way you'd ever get a conviction on the Japanese crew for ramming. Frankly it looks more like incompetent seamenship on the part of the Ady Gil's crew. They're... well they're idiots and don't realize that a 500 ton ship can't stop or turn on a dime. They paid for it by getting their nice boat all broke.
4.) Injuring people on the boat- ILLEGAL
One person cracked two ribs as a result of the aforementioned idiocy on their own part.
r3n3g8b0y wrote:whales are nearly extinct, they're protected by law mate!
Some are, but not the species the Japanese currently actively hunt. Even those that are endangered that the Japanese hunted at one point in the last 20 years were harvested in such low numbers as to be rather inconsequential.
r3n3g8b0y wrote:this isn't the point though, the point is that Japan keeps on killing a nearly extinct species and noone seems to give a feth!
See the above, you're just wrong.
sebster wrote:This thread really needed to be called Japanese Run Over Bob Barker.
I heartily endorse this idea.
sebster wrote:The Japanese are signatories to treaties that stop whale harvesting. They continue to whale under the claim that it's for scientific purposes, with the sale of whale meat as a by product - they pretend they're collecting specimen samples.
This is obviously a lie, and while governments continue to attempt resolve this diplomatically, ultimately this could be taken to international court.
Which given that the Japanese not only have a permit for harvesting these whales from the governing body of that treaty, the IWC has admitted the research they collect is top notch and useful, and that the japanese whaling industry requires subsidies to just break even... well I wish you the best of luck in that case. You'll need it in any court that looks at facts and the letter of the law rather than "DAAAWWWW look at da purdy whales!" emotions.
sebster wrote:Meanwhile, its very odd that you'd call the surveillance and acts of nuisance performed by the anti-whalers as piracy, but not complain about the whalers ramming a stationary vessel.
If you look at the video the Ady Gil was either under power when hit or recently under power. See my above reply on this subject. Proving they were rammed and not just incompetent seamen will be one hell of a case to have to make. Additionally, having your props fouled in the storm wracked and iceberg filled Antarctic Ocean thousands of miles from land and any chance of timely rescue is more than a nuisance. It borders on attempted murder.
The following breeds of whale are presently classified as endangered by the IUCN;
Fin Whale
Of which Japan has harvested 13 in the last 20 years.
Sei Whale
Of which Japan has harvested 492 in the last 20 years.
Sperm Whale
Of which Japan has harvested 45 in the last 20 years and is only classified as vulnerable not endangered.
The bulk of the breeds harvested consist of Byrde's whales and minke whales, 396 and 10,443 respectively over the course of 20 years. Byrde's whales are not even of concern in terms of population and but minke's do rate at least a minor concern though their total population is estimated to be around 770,000 animals world wide currently.
..and officially, China cares about it's people and the environment, Hitler was a nice man and Games Workshop has balanced rules.
What the authorities say, and what the Government is REALLY doing are two completely different things...
Gwar! wrote:And you know/care what the Japanese do because...
..Killing a nearly extinct species is just wrong...I mean look at all the species that don't exist anymore, just because some rich nutbag wanted to have a trophy for his lounge room..
Gwar! wrote:And you know/care what the Japanese do because...
..Killing a nearly extinct species is just wrong...I mean look at all the species that don't exist anymore, just because some rich nutbag wanted to have a trophy for his lounge room..
If nature wanted it to be not-extinct, it would have given it MIRVs for Limbs.
Gwar! wrote:And you know/care what the Japanese do because...
..Killing a nearly extinct species is just wrong...I mean look at all the species that don't exist anymore, just because some rich nutbag wanted to have a trophy for his lounge room..
If nature wanted it to be not-extinct, it would have given it MIRVs for Limbs.
..and the fact that Japanese are hunting and killing the whales has nothing to do with it right?!
Kilkrazy wrote:Neither side is ethical. Both are wrong.
Because you agree with the pirate?
The man and his crew are pirates (and not in he good FSM manner) and are damn lucky they haven't gotten anyone killed. At some point they'll cross a crew who have more firepower than just sushi knives and harsh language.
As I said, if the Japanese do decide "FETH YOU WHALE.... WARS PEOPLE" and just shoot at them, killing a good few, what are the Oz gonna do about it? The Japanese Government may be "weak" atm, but even they wouldn't dream of extraditing someone over this.
Kilkrazy wrote:Neither side is ethical. Both are wrong.
Because you agree with the pirate?
The man and his crew are pirates (and not in he good FSM manner) and are damn lucky they haven't gotten anyone killed. At some point they'll cross a crew who have more firepower than just sushi knives and harsh language.
I don't know who is supposed to be the pirate but I don't agree with either side.
The Japanese whaling programme is a government pork barrel project designed to funnel taxpayer money to a few industrial and local interests in order to garner votes for the LDP and cushy post-retirement jobs for ex-ministers. It's nothing to do with traditional Japanese culture or a reaction against western Imperialism or a need or desire to eat whale meat.
The Sea Shepherd people should not be mucking around causing danger on the high seas for the sake of a few whales.
Just because there are two sides in a disagreement it doesn't mean that one side must be right!
Seriously though folks, these guys are driving around in Batman's freaking boat, with a fething sticker of a jolly roger on their side...
THAT. IS. NOT. PIRACY. Even though it is a damn shame they have such a nice piece of kit.
THIS... is a freaking modern pirate. THIS...
They run around, you know, actually pirating... actually... pirating.
Or, according the the pics limited info, a Priate... which sound like a good name for the Stink-bomb throwing eco-nuts. Like a Prius, the Prius of pirates.
Sea Shepard are doing what a lot of people WISH they could do. Their sticking their middle finger to the man and making sure stuff gets done right.
Hell yeah, I support em. And, as a member of Oceania, I hope Australia and the Kiwi's make sure that no more whales get hunted.
Kudo's to Australia and New Zealand (and Tazmania, you crazy mofo's). Luckily Hawaii has a "zone" around humpbacks. You can't go around 500 or so feet. If they pop up, you have to immediately cut your engines and drift until they pass by.
Doombot001 wrote:Sea Shepard are doing what a lot of people WISH they could do. Their sticking their middle finger to the man and making sure stuff gets done right.
Hell yeah, I support em. And, as a member of Oceania, I hope Australia and the Kiwi's make sure that no more whales get hunted.
Kudo's to Australia and New Zealand (and Tazmania, you crazy mofo's). Luckily Hawaii has a "zone" around humpbacks. You can't go around 500 or so feet. If they pop up, you have to immediately cut your engines and drift until they pass by.
Tyyr wrote:Austrailia has claimed the Antarctic Ocean?
No, but Australia does have a significant Exclusive Economic Zone in the Antarctic, and much of the 'science' takes place in this region.
Intentionally, maybe. However from watching the footage the Ady Gil appears to still be under power or at least coasting forward still when she's hit. From the footage shown there's just about no way you'd ever get a conviction on the Japanese crew for ramming. Frankly it looks more like incompetent seamenship on the part of the Ady Gil's crew. They're... well they're idiots and don't realize that a 500 ton ship can't stop or turn on a dime. They paid for it by getting their nice boat all broke.
Except that's not true. The Japanese boat turned into the Ady Gil.
Which given that the Japanese not only have a permit for harvesting these whales from the governing body of that treaty, the IWC has admitted the research they collect is top notch and useful, and that the japanese whaling industry requires subsidies to just break even... well I wish you the best of luck in that case. You'll need it in any court that looks at facts and the letter of the law rather than "DAAAWWWW look at da purdy whales!" emotions.
You don't understand how article VIII of the treaty operates. It allows a member nation to grant permits for whaling for scientific purposes. The IWC itself, being a treaty organisation and not an administrative organisation, does not issue permits.
So the issue becomes whether the Japanese are issuing permits on commercial or scientific grounds. To the extent that the Japanese are lying about the scientific intent of the operation is the extent to which they are breaking the law by issuing permits on illegal grounds.
Perhaps in future before making dismissive whale watcher comments you might try reading the treaty you're claiming to understand.
If you look at the video the Ady Gil was either under power when hit or recently under power. See my above reply on this subject. Proving they were rammed and not just incompetent seamen will be one hell of a case to have to make. Additionally, having your props fouled in the storm wracked and iceberg filled Antarctic Ocean thousands of miles from land and any chance of timely rescue is more than a nuisance. It borders on attempted murder.
I've looked at the video. The boat was stationary and the ramming unnecessary. No other conclusion can be drawn.
(snip whale lists)
The bulk of the breeds harvested consist of Byrde's whales and minke whales, 396 and 10,443 respectively over the course of 20 years. Byrde's whales are not even of concern in terms of population and but minke's do rate at least a minor concern though their total population is estimated to be around 770,000 animals world wide currently.
Yeah, the whales being harvested are not those endangered. I gave the list to highlight the fallacy of considering whales endangered or not... it depends on the breed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote:Get real. Fouling a propeller or turning gear in in the Antarctic, with no hope of rescue, is attempted murder. Hence ramming the whalehuggers is viable self defense.
Fraz, I know you want to talk about pirates and stuff, and that's cool, but to do that you've contrived this idea that damaging a boat means doom for the crew. It isn't 1883, with lone whaling vessels months from shore and unable to communicate with the outside world. Modern boats will generally invest in communications devices. The Japanese whalers operate as a fleet, with several boats in the fleet operating as security and support vessels, with actual ability to harvest whales. The whaling boat involved in the ramming incident was just such a vessel... while the protestor ship that was rammed saw its crew rescued in a few minutes.
No-one is going to be left adrift for months forced to eat fellow crewmen.
On the other hand, ramming a vessel is a very dangerous thing.
Gwar! wrote:As I said, if the Japanese do decide "FETH YOU WHALE.... WARS PEOPLE" and just shoot at them, killing a good few, what are the Oz gonna do about it? The Japanese Government may be "weak" atm, but even they wouldn't dream of extraditing someone over this.
Murder is against the law in the Japan. The Japanese boats are under Japanese jurisdiction. Abstaining from the prosecution of a murder, or several murders, that would most likely be recorded in some fashion would be more than a little bit difficult.
Gwar! wrote:As I said, if the Japanese do decide "FETH YOU WHALE.... WARS PEOPLE" and just shoot at them, killing a good few, what are the Oz gonna do about it? The Japanese Government may be "weak" atm, but even they wouldn't dream of extraditing someone over this.
Murder is against the law in the Japan. The Japanese boats are under Japanese jurisdiction. Abstaining from the prosecution of a murder, or several murders, that would most likely be recorded in some fashion would be more than a little bit difficult.
I'm pretty sure it's against the law in pretty much every country on earth..
I'm pretty sure Aussieland and NZ have more commonsense than USA to tell Nippon ships to stop.
Yeah, what? My state appreciates these guys for what they are. I LOVE the fact that that Aussieland has WAAAY more balls than my USA in terms of protecting the whales.
Doombot001 wrote:Sea Shepard are doing what a lot of people WISH they could do. Their sticking their middle finger to the man and making sure stuff gets done right.
Really...
I see your point though, they are doing a damn good job though... at... ummm... .
Doombot001 wrote:Sea Shepard are doing what a lot of people WISH they could do. Their sticking their middle finger to the man and making sure stuff gets done right.
Really...
I see your point though, they are doing a damn good job though... at... ummm... .
Wrexy, baby....
The Nihongin (Japanese) boats, screwed the the Sea Shepards Stealthboat. Granted, they didn't utilize it the way it was supposed to, but the Japanese are the ones that damaged the boat. They gotta pay for the damage. When the Sea Shepard's get some real FIREPOWAHHH, then maybe the whale's get left alone.
Doombot001 wrote:Granted, they didn't utilize it the way it was supposed to, but the Japanese are the ones that damaged the boat.
This...
Gwar! wrote:International Waters.
The Japanese haven't got to do Jack gak.
Your also obviously trying to gloss over how epic of a failure this incident actually was. Maybe I should redo the picture with a band-aid... that would express how I feel about what you are trying to do.
EPIC. FREAKING. FAIL.
That is what they have accomplished, no garnish, no fething sauce. Fail.
This kinda goes what I've been saying. Sea Shepards go by International Law. When the Nihongin are hunting whales, Sea Shepards are the guys to only ones to tell them to STFU and crap on their parade.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wrexasaur wrote:
Doombot001 wrote:Granted, they didn't utilize it the way it was supposed to, but the Japanese are the ones that damaged the boat.
This...
Gwar! wrote:International Waters.
The Japanese haven't got to do Jack gak.
Your also obviously trying to gloss over how epic of a failure this incident actually was. Maybe I should redo the picture with a band-aid... that would express how I feel about what you are trying to do.
EPIC. FREAKING. FAIL.
That is what they have accomplished, no garnish, no fething sauce. Fail.
I advise you to stop saying that before I link your text to something worse than MJ. You don't want to know... Rosie O'donnell
Doombot001 wrote:When the Nihongin are hunting whales, Sea Shepards are the guys to only ones to tell them to STFU and crap on their parade.
No... Butt-pirates of the Caribbean, are the only guys in the world to wreck THE ONLY real Batman Boat. Go to hell... go to hell and die you goddam sea-hippies... / .
I advise you to stop saying that before I link your text to something worse than MJ. You don't want to know... Rosie O'donnell
Doombot001 wrote:When the Nihongin are hunting whales, Sea Shepards are the guys to only ones to tell them to STFU and crap on their parade.
No... Butt-pirates of the Caribbean, are the only guys in the world to wreck THE ONLY real Batman Boat. Go to hell... go to hell and die you goddam sea-hippies... / .
That's wrong. International waters are only lawless in the sense that there are no police floating around in the ocean waiting to bust people. If a crime is committed on a ship, it will be prosecuted under the law of the next port of call. Otherwise individual vessels are treated as extensions of their flag; meaning that the Japanese whaling vessels are governed by law of Japan. Conceivably the Sea Sheppard organization could bring suit for destruction of property in Japanese court.
The Nihongin (Japanese) boats, screwed the the Sea Shepards Stealthboat. Granted, they didn't utilize it the way it was supposed to, but the Japanese are the ones that damaged the boat. They gotta pay for the damage. When the Sea Shepard's get some real FIREPOWAHHH, then maybe the whale's get left alone.
There still trying to figure out whether or not it was intentinal.
from what i see the boat is hidning behind a ice chunk that the boat was supposed go over. then they didnt realize would hit them.
I think that my favorite part of this story is that Sea Shepard is now trying to sue the japanese boat for Piracy.
Let's forget everything about whales for a moment, and just think about this piracy case.
"Well, your honor, we saw this japanese boat that we didn't like, so we rolled up next to them and started throwing ropes to try to foul their propeller. You know, so they can't move around. We just wanted to deliberately cause damage to their vessel, that's all. Then, out of nowhere, they rammed us! They are clearly pirates."
(Japanese rebuttal) "It was self defense. They attacked our ship, so we kicked their asses, yo. Don't go getting all up in our grill"
What kind of a case do they really think they have?
A boatload of vegans doesn't get a pass just because their sense ecological duty inspires them to save a whale 'by any means necessary' including destruction of property, endangering human life (including theirs) and questionably legal espionage. Without a nation sponsoring them.
But they're not pirates!
Edit: embedded quote/Url fixed... second time around.
Main Entry: pi·ra·cy Pronunciation: 'pI-r&-sE Function: noun Inflected Form: plural -cies 1 : an act of robbery esp. on the high seas; specifically : an illegal act of violence, detention, or plunder committed for private ends by crew or passengers of a private ship or aircraft against another ship or aircraft on the high seas or in a place outside the jurisdiction of any state —see also AIRCRAFT PIRACY Article I of the CONSTITUTION in the back matter 2 a : the unauthorized copying, distribution, or use of another's production (as a film) esp. in infringement of a copyright piracy> b : the unauthorized use, interception, or receipt of encoded communications (as satellite cable programming) esp. to avoid paying fees for use piracy of programming signals —United States v. Harrell, 983 Federal Reporter, Second Series 36 (1993)> 3 : the crime of committing piracy
Not really. I can call myself an astronaut, that doesn't mean I am.
Yes, we have confirmed that in fact, the Bat-Boat, is actually wrecked.
Yes, the 'Pirates' are the ones that appear to be responsible overall, regardless of whether the slow-ass, non-speed boat being whaling vessel crashed into them. Because it was so difficult to move a multi-million dollar speed boat 30 feet out of the way...
"Deary me, how ever will we be able to evade our certain destruction at the hands of such a large, and cunning vessel such that the Japanese whalers used to force our hand. The hand of righteous justice... The hand... of eco-fury..."
They're not pirates, not terrorists, just concerned citizens saving the world despite all our ignorant meat eating ways because we don't know better. These are obviously good, noble, and well adjusted people perpetrating no crimes, and involved in no wrongdoing.
Oldgrue wrote:They're not pirates, not terrorists, just concerned citizens saving the world despite all our ignorant meat eating ways because we don't know better.
Funny that, I did just finish a nice whale steak, with baby whale fritters. Mmmmm... almost like I actually had beef, oh well...
Oldgrue wrote:
Sea Shepherd Conservation Society ship Farley Mowat is now officially a pirate vessel.
Cute, but meaningless, as Shuma said, you can call yourself whatever you want, but that doesn't mean you're right.
Oldgrue wrote:
per dictionary.com:
pi⋅rate
–noun
1. a person who robs or commits illegal violence at sea or on the shores of the sea.
2. a ship used by such persons.
That's the wrong definition. You want this definition:
(a) any illegal acts of violence or detention, or any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed:
(i) on the high seas, against another ship or aircraft, or against persons or property on board such ship or aircraft;
(ii) against a ship, aircraft, persons or property in a place outside the jurisdiction of any State;
Oldgrue wrote:
So these conservationsts scuttle someone else's boat and its not piracy.
Nope. Harbors are governed by the laws of the nation which controls them. If they aren't pirates according to the laws of the nation in question, then they aren't pirates.
Oldgrue wrote: Still not pirates!
Nope, not violence.
Oldgrue wrote:
Peaceful protesters one and all.
Acid would be a violent attack. However, one minor incident isn't enough to label. Unless you want to be some kind of ridiculous absolutist.
Oldgrue wrote:
"I guess we can call this non-violent chemical warfare," Sea Shepherd's leader, Paul Watson, said.
"We only use organic, non-toxic materials ..."
With the exception of the acid, he would be correct. Throwing stink bombs is not violent.
Oldgrue wrote:
Captain Watson said they homed in on a signal from an electronic surveillance bug planted by activists on the catcher ship Yushin Maru No.2.
And? Not an element of piracy.
Oldgrue wrote:
A boatload of vegans doesn't get a pass just because their sense ecological duty inspires them to save a whale 'by any means necessary' including destruction of property, endangering human life (including theirs) and questionably legal espionage. Without a nation sponsoring them.
But they're not pirates!
No, they aren't. They're extremists, certainly, but not pirates. Stop trying to bend words to your liking so as to make this easier for you intellectually.
dogma wrote:Acid would be a violent attack. However, one minor incident isn't enough to label. Unless you want to be some kind of ridiculous absolutist.
Pipboy101 wrote:I am just waiting for the whalers start to defend their ships with real firearms which by international law they are allowed to do. Now that will make for good TV.
I seem to recall one where Japanese whalers responded to anti-whaling protesters by throwing hand grenades onto their ship. Does that count as a weapon?
Personally, I hope that the shooting does start. It's been a long time since the good old days aboard the CSS Shenandoah. I could use the sport.
Actually you'd be surprised, if I was US based I probably wouldn't. Also since what these people are doing is borderline acceptable this could work. Firing across a bow is different from shooting at the people.
I'm not saying I agree with the whalers, I just like money.
Also International waters work differently from territorial waters, so as far as I know, firing warning shots is perfectly legal.
BrotherStynier wrote:
Also International waters work differently from territorial waters, so as far as I know, firing warning shots is perfectly legal.
As I've said repeatedly in this thread, simply being in international waters does not remove one from legal jurisdiction. You'd be subject to the laws of whatever nation whose flag your vessel flew. Japanese gun control laws are incredibly strict, so I'm pretty certain that in this particular case you would have some difficulty with the law; being civilians in possession of firearms, whether citizens of Japan or not.
Sorry if that came off as hostile, I've just made that point like 5 times in this thread in response to people saying international waters = no law.
As for the second part: a ship flying a Japanese flag is essentially Japanese territory (that's an oversimplification, but international law is complicated). Think of it as an embassy sans sovereignty.
dogma wrote:Sorry if that came off as hostile, I've just made that point like 5 times in this thread in response to people saying international waters = no law.
As for the second part: a ship flying a Japanese flag is essentially Japanese territory (that's an oversimplification, but international law is complicated). Think of it as an embassy sans sovereignty.
Oh no, I didn't take it as hostile, so no worries. I also didn't mean to imply international waters equals no law, simply that laws are slightly different.
Oh okay that makes since, I'll look into it more later I think.
Gwar! wrote:One that would force the whaling industry to pay legal fees?
Judge: Furthermore, the Idiot Whale Huggers must pay the Whalers Legal Fees
Is that where all you 'attack the anti-whalers and the Japanese can ram boats if they want' are coming from?
Just a knee jerk I-dun-like-hippies thing... because that's really lame.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BaronIveagh wrote:
Pipboy101 wrote:I am just waiting for the whalers start to defend their ships with real firearms which by international law they are allowed to do. Now that will make for good TV.
I seem to recall one where Japanese whalers responded to anti-whaling protesters by throwing hand grenades onto their ship. Does that count as a weapon?
It would count if it were true but it's fantasy so... ummm... it doesn't.
Anshal wrote:Whale = nomnom
Sea shepherd people = Criminal and crazed vegan nut cases
No, actually they're quite civil. Now, put an ELF member at the helm of a mini sub with some torpedoes and you have a crazed criminal vegan nutcase. Those guys don't just throw blood on children and scream at whaling ships, they kill people and blow things up.
(Fantasies about that for a moment.)
I'm actually waiting to hear that some crazed nutjobs have bought an old Russian sub and started torpedoing whaling ships. I would laugh my ass off. (partially because I was told it was impossible, and partially because of the panic over at Llyod's of London. I'd love to see more Names sink.)
er, whalers are the ones to be 
/ 
.
