This is a funny story I thought I'd share with dakka of a recent stupid student asking about the rifle team.

So my Social Studies teacher asks me how the rifle match went last night.

Now before I can reply, a girl in my class jumps into this converstaion.

She asks "How does a rifle macth happen?"

Being the sarcastic, charitable soul I am, my answer is this.

"Well, the two teams stand at opposite ends of a hall, and load the guns. Last man standing, that team wins."

"Really? But don't you get hurt?"

Dumbstruck at this stupidity, I was at a lose for words for a moment.
A moment later , I continued.

"Yeah, but we get some pretty badass scars to show for it."

Completely wingin it, I pull down the neck of my shirt and reveal a burn on my shoulder.

"OHMIGOD! You need to get that looked at!"

My friends sitting next to me and my teacher are dying as they hear this.
The teacher is nearly falling over, laughter barely contained.
My friends are clearly making their amusement known to the class with loud guffaws.

"Good God, woman you really are stupid." Is the last thing she hear me say, as she asked the person sitting next to her why people are laughing.

And on a slightly more disturbing note, this round of stupidity.

Sitting in German class the other day, I hear a girl talk to Frau(the teacher) complaining of something called "North Talk".
Apparently, a bunch of asswipes decided to start a facebook group making fun of people. And not the good natured ribbing amoungst friends, but cruel, outright lies.

Apparently, a few guys made this group and, everynight, without fail, log on at 6:00, and pick one random person or person to publish outright lies of.

The school is still looking for the ones who did, and a few expulsion hearings ahve been made. They couldn't get expelled becauseof cyber bullying during school, so they
ended up hooking them on some technicality. A few of these jerks have yet to get punished.

This upsets me for multiple reasons.

1) These guys lack the cajones required to say something to someones face, making them even less of a man then regular bullies, who you at least know are bullies.
2) They got caught on a technicality and not for actually cyberbullying.

Now,the school ahs contacted facebook to get the group closed, but apparently it's stillup, for the time being.

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:"Good God, woman you really are stupid." Is the last thing she hear me say, as she asked the person sitting next to her why people are laughing.

You're mean.

I did similar(maybe) thing at my German.One girls in my class was laughing all the time so I made fun of her and used commisar's sense of humor and even the professor mocked her.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:"Good God, woman you really are stupid." Is the last thing she hear me say, as she asked the person sitting next to her why people are laughing.

You're mean.

I have no tolerance forstupid people.

IvanTih wrote:I did similar(maybe) thing at my German.One girls in my class was laughing all the time so I made fun of her and used commisar's sense of humor and even the professor mocked her.

Thats different. That's making good natured fun of someone, while telling the truth. Those guys made a load of gak up and posted it.

Bit of a difference.

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:"Good God, woman you really are stupid." Is the last thing she hear me say, as she asked the person sitting next to her why people are laughing.

You're mean.

I have no tolerance forstupid people.

IvanTih wrote:I did similar(maybe) thing at my German.One girls in my class was laughing all the time so I made fun of her and used commisar's sense of humor and even the professor mocked her.

Thats different. That's making good natured fun of someone, while telling the truth. Those guys made a load of gak up and posted it.

Bit of a difference.

If I were those guys in my place they would have never caught me.

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:
Being the sarcastic, charitable soul I am, my answer is this.

So you're calling yourself sarcastic, and then invoking that characteristic in calling yourself charitable? That's pretty poor.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:"Good God, woman you really are stupid." Is the last thing she hear me say, as she asked the person sitting next to her why people are laughing.

You're mean.

+1

Funny as feth though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:"Good God, woman you really are stupid." Is the last thing she hear me say, as she asked the person sitting next to her why people are laughing.

You're mean.

I have no tolerance forstupid people.

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:This is a funny story I thought I'd share with dakka of a recent stupid student asking about the rifle team.

1) These guys lack the cajones required to say something to someones face, making them even less of a man then regular bullies, who you at least know are bullies.

Irony.

And what Emperor's Faithful noted.

I once convinced a fairly stupid, but sweet girl that ginger people were illegal in Japan. As proof, I cited the lack of ginger Japanese people. When she asked what they'd done with them, I told her they'd been deported to Australia. It was cruel, but damned funny.

Hey why does all this stuff happen in German Class? there must be some connection XD

Reginleif wrote:Hey why does all this stuff happen in German Class? there must be some connection XD

What are you talking about?

GES said that it happened in Social Studies, and Ketara's didn't even happen in class. Only IvanTih had something happen in German Class.

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:This is a funny story I thought I'd share with dakka of a recent stupid student asking about the rifle team.

So my Social Studies teacher asks me how the rifle match went last night.

Now before I can reply, a girl in my class jumps into this converstaion.

She asks "How does a rifle macth happen?"

Being the sarcastic, charitable soul I am, my answer is this.

"Well, the two teams stand at opposite ends of a hall, and load the guns. Last man standing, that team wins."

"Really? But don't you get hurt?"

Dumbstruck at this stupidity, I was at a lose for words for a moment.
A moment later , I continued.

"Yeah, but we get some pretty badass scars to show for it."

Completely wingin it, I pull down the neck of my shirt and reveal a burn on my shoulder.

"OHMIGOD! You need to get that looked at!"

My friends sitting next to me and my teacher are dying as they hear this.
The teacher is nearly falling over, laughter barely contained.
My friends are clearly making their amusement known to the class with loud guffaws.

"Good God, woman you really are stupid." Is the last thing she hear me say, as she asked the person sitting next to her why people are laughing.

And on a slightly more disturbing note, this round of stupidity.

Sitting in German class the other day, I hear a girl talk to Frau(the teacher) complaining of something called "North Talk".
Apparently, a bunch of asswipes decided to start a facebook group making fun of people. And not the good natured ribbing amoungst friends, but cruel, outright lies.

Apparently, a few guys made this group and, everynight, without fail, log on at 6:00, and pick one random person or person to publish outright lies of.

The school is still looking for the ones who did, and a few expulsion hearings ahve been made. They couldn't get expelled becauseof cyber bullying during school, so they
ended up hooking them on some technicality. A few of these jerks have yet to get punished.

This upsets me for multiple reasons.

1) These guys lack the cajones required to say something to someones face, making them even less of a man then regular bullies, who you at least know are bullies.
2) They got caught on a technicality and not for actually cyberbullying.

Now,the school ahs contacted facebook to get the group closed, but apparently it's stillup, for the time being.

None of this school administration nonsense. Back in my day we would have just beat their brains in with a rock, then left the bodies for the wild pigs to eat. Wussies!

I thought teasing ditsy girls was called flirting?

I once convinced a very nieve university student that the reason i don't drink is because on a mean bender of a night out i woke up next to a dead deer with myself covered in blood ala beer fest. But when she is friends with someone who doesn't believe stars exist you know they are easy targets

back when I was in high school (the 80's) if kids pulled a stunt like the facebook thing (granted it didn't exist then but still), they'd get their asses beat down hard. Kids knew this, so it just wouldn't happen...

Necros wrote:back when I was in high school (the 80's) if kids pulled a stunt like the facebook thing (granted it didn't exist then but still), they'd get their asses beat down hard. Kids knew this, so it just wouldn't happen...

Exactly, see my head/rock post. Of course back then, all we had were heads and rocks and the occasional stick. Sometimes an animal skin, but the animal wearing it usually objected when you wrote on it. I can't tell you how many times I had to tell the teacher how I really did do my homework assignment, but that it ran away when I was bringing it to school.

My cousin in Edinburgh was once asked by a tourist "Excuse me, could you tell me what time the 1 o'clock gun is?" He told them 2pm, cus thats how he rolls
(for non native UK citizens, the 1o'clock gun is the old cannon that fires every day from the top of Edinburgh castle at precisely .. erm .. 1pm. Hence its name)

Frazzled wrote:

Necros wrote:back when I was in high school (the 80's) if kids pulled a stunt like the facebook thing (granted it didn't exist then but still), they'd get their asses beat down hard. Kids knew this, so it just wouldn't happen...

Exactly, see my head/rock post. Of course back then, all we had were heads and rocks and the occasional stick. Sometimes an animal skin, but the animal wearing it usually objected when you wrote on it. I can't tell you how many times I had to tell the teacher how I really did do my homework assignment, but that it ran away when I was bringing it to school.

The American Education System has turned into a quagmire of bueracracy, with no winner.

If I got in a fight and defended myself, I would be in deeper sh** then the dick who started the fight.

So the equation of

Rock+Face+Ass Kicking=Satisfaction

is invalid.

whatwhat wrote:I thought teasing ditsy girls was called flirting?

It pains me to say this, but........... win.

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Necros wrote:back when I was in high school (the 80's) if kids pulled a stunt like the facebook thing (granted it didn't exist then but still), they'd get their asses beat down hard. Kids knew this, so it just wouldn't happen...

Exactly, see my head/rock post. Of course back then, all we had were heads and rocks and the occasional stick. Sometimes an animal skin, but the animal wearing it usually objected when you wrote on it. I can't tell you how many times I had to tell the teacher how I really did do my homework assignment, but that it ran away when I was bringing it to school.

The American Education System has turned into a quagmire of bueracracy, with no winner.

If I got in a fight and defended myself, I would be in deeper sh** then the dick who started the fight.

So the equation of

Rock+Face+Ass Kicking=Satisfaction

is invalid.

Kids fight.
Men use rocks. Or Ford 350s at high speed.

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:
The American Education System has turned into a quagmire of bueracracy, with no winner.

If I got in a fight and defended myself, I would be in deeper sh** then the dick who started the fight.

So the equation of

Rock+Face+Ass Kicking=Satisfaction

is invalid.

It amuses me that you immediately default to fighting as a means of discussing public education.

I got in a few fights in high school. They got swept under the rug. Its all a matter of context, witnesses, and the opinion people have of you. Is it fair? No. But it is pretty good training for the rest of your life.

Also, in most cases, the person you believe to have 'started the fight' was in fact simply speaking derisively. When you throw a punch (or tackle, or kick, etc.) you start the fight.

I don't understand the concept that if you bully a school mate outside of school hours it isn't considered bullying.

dogma wrote:

I got in a few fights in high school. They got swept under the rug. Its all a matter of context, witnesses, and the opinion people have of you. Is it fair? No. But it is pretty good training for the rest of your life.

Also, in most cases, the person you believe to have 'started the fight' was in fact simply speaking derisively. When you throw a punch (or tackle, or kick, etc.) you start the fight.

Quote For Fething Truth.

As a nasty little scrapper in my younger years I swiftly learnt that the whole 'he started it' doesn't quite jell when you kick them in the nuts and tackle them to the ground becuase they called you gay. Surprisingly, outright ignoring them and thier insults doesn't work as well as actually laughing along and joking with them. Heck, doing so can actually get you a few mates.

As for leading ditzy chicks on, it's a time honoured tradition at our school. A mate of mine had recently fallen and had a nasty scrape along his back and side. Leading several girls on we told them how he had gotten into a shark attack from a White Pointer, and that he only got away by pushing his surfboard in front of him and hitting it on the nose. They believed us 100%. They only started to suspect that something was up when we said how the thing still came after him (on land ) and that they got into a knife fight and our guy won.

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:Good God, woman you really are stupid

And so GES will have to resort to taking his cousin to Homecoming....again.... Listen hear lad: Don't call the women stupid if you want to have a date at all!

Yeah, HS girls love to talk and gossip.

Anything said to a girl in HS will get around the school at some point.

Insult too many females and your date for prom will be a gym sock and a bottle of lotion.

Fateweaver wrote:
Insult too many females and your date for prom will be a gym sock and a bottle of lotion.

Some good times .. good times

That's better then what i did for prom.

Story's not dakka appropriate though.

JEB_Stuart wrote:

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:Good God, woman you really are stupid

And so GES will have to resort to taking his cousin to Homecoming....again.... Listen hear lad: Don't call the women stupid if you want to have a date at all!

Actually, insulting girls will make them like you, because they all want to have sex with the alpha jackasses with the leather jackets and not Nice Guys like me.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Actually, insulting girls will make them like you, because they all want to have sex with the alpha jackasses with the leather jackets and not Nice Guys like me.

But you live in Minnesota, so your perception of datable women is skewed somewhere in this direction:

Therefore your opinion is moot....

Treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen.


Or something.

Fateweaver wrote:Insult too many females and your date for prom will be a gym sock and a bottle of lotion.

Shadowbrand wrote:That's better then what i did for prom.

Story's not dakka appropriate though.

Fateweaver wrote:

Insult too many females and your date for prom will be a gym sock and a bottle of lotion.

That's a lot quicker though.

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:Sitting in German class the other day, I hear a girl talk to Frau(the teacher) complaining of something called "North Talk".
Apparently, a bunch of asswipes decided to start a facebook group making fun of people. And not the good natured ribbing amoungst friends, but cruel, outright lies.

Apparently, a few guys made this group and, everynight, without fail, log on at 6:00, and pick one random person or person to publish outright lies of.

The school is still looking for the ones who did, and a few expulsion hearings ahve been made. They couldn't get expelled becauseof cyber bullying during school, so they
ended up hooking them on some technicality. A few of these jerks have yet to get punished.

Hang on, kids got expelled for being mean on the internet?

That seems like a pretty harsh punishment.

sebster wrote:

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:Sitting in German class the other day, I hear a girl talk to Frau(the teacher) complaining of something called "North Talk".
Apparently, a bunch of asswipes decided to start a facebook group making fun of people. And not the good natured ribbing amoungst friends, but cruel, outright lies.

Apparently, a few guys made this group and, everynight, without fail, log on at 6:00, and pick one random person or person to publish outright lies of.

The school is still looking for the ones who did, and a few expulsion hearings ahve been made. They couldn't get expelled becauseof cyber bullying during school, so they
ended up hooking them on some technicality. A few of these jerks have yet to get punished.

Hang on, kids got expelled for being mean on the internet?

That seems like a pretty harsh punishment.

If any were perceived as threats they could get them on making terroristic threats.

Could also get them for slander. Lying to hurt someone's reputation/name/identity is a no no. Not sure if their are legal repercussions but it would be enough to get them kicked out.

I like making fun of less-than-intelligent people.

I actually chose Makr as my username because I once managed to convince a few people that it was my real name because someone messed up on my Birth Certificate (real name is Mark).

I speak in a monotone and so people have no way of telling when I'm lying. It actually appears to me that I always look like I am lying, since I manage to get searched by TSA every time.

slow!!! Ha, wait, you might get kicked from dakka if somebody found out.

Well GES, i'm gonna be honest, what you did to that girl wasn't really nice. In fact it.. it was jsut uncalled for. i mean waht happened after ward?

Fateweaver wrote:

sebster wrote:

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:Sitting in German class the other day, I hear a girl talk to Frau(the teacher) complaining of something called "North Talk".
Apparently, a bunch of asswipes decided to start a facebook group making fun of people. And not the good natured ribbing amoungst friends, but cruel, outright lies.

Apparently, a few guys made this group and, everynight, without fail, log on at 6:00, and pick one random person or person to publish outright lies of.

The school is still looking for the ones who did, and a few expulsion hearings ahve been made. They couldn't get expelled becauseof cyber bullying during school, so they
ended up hooking them on some technicality. A few of these jerks have yet to get punished.

Hang on, kids got expelled for being mean on the internet?

That seems like a pretty harsh punishment.

If any were perceived as threats they could get them on making terroristic threats.

Could also get them for slander. Lying to hurt someone's reputation/name/identity is a no no. Not sure if their are legal repercussions but it would be enough to get them kicked out.

Actually, it's a big push that's been going on since there've been some suicides/attempts at violence over the past few years related to cyber-bullying. My youngest brother gets these little newsletters sent home with him every Monday where the parents have to return them to ensure they know the kind of material the kids are posting on their Facebook/MySpace/whatever sites.
It's a very interesting thing to read, because from a common sense point of view: no way in Hell can that be legal to control content posted outside of the school.

JEB_Stuart wrote:

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:Good God, woman you really are stupid

And so GES will have to resort to taking his cousin to Homecoming....again.... Listen hear lad: Don't call the women stupid if you want to have a date at all!

JEB wins the thread.

Homecoming's for losers anyways.

The homecoming parties, however, are no joke.

Ketara wrote:I once convinced a fairly stupid, but sweet girl that ginger people were illegal in Japan. As proof, I cited the lack of ginger Japanese people. When she asked what they'd done with them, I told her they'd been deported to Australia. It was cruel, but damned funny.

LMAO! I about fell off my chair reading this.

I once convinced my little sister that there was a race of people with dog heads called "balverines" living in the Florida alps. I also showed her that if you lift a quarter up to the sun you can cover it, so the sun must be the same size as a quarter, ala "Calvin and Hobbes". In all fairness she was 5 at the time.

You have fethed up the mind of a 5-year-old. Congratulations.

Emperors Faithful wrote:You have fethed up the mind of a 5-year-old. Congratulations.

One day at a time, one brain at a time, all in a day's work. Who did you think the evil genius behind Hannah Montana was? MUHUAHAHAAAHAA

Emperors Faithful wrote:

dogma wrote:

I got in a few fights in high school. They got swept under the rug. Its all a matter of context, witnesses, and the opinion people have of you. Is it fair? No. But it is pretty good training for the rest of your life.

Also, in most cases, the person you believe to have 'started the fight' was in fact simply speaking derisively. When you throw a punch (or tackle, or kick, etc.) you start the fight.

Quote For Fething Truth.

As a nasty little scrapper in my younger years I swiftly learnt that the whole 'he started it' doesn't quite jell when you kick them in the nuts and tackle them to the ground becuase they called you gay. Surprisingly, outright ignoring them and thier insults doesn't work as well as actually laughing along and joking with them. Heck, doing so can actually get you a few mates.

no, not as in they insulted me startiung the fight, but physically attacking me and i fight back to defend myself, i get five days of suspension, they get two days.

Yeah, right. I'm sure that's exactly what happened.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Yeah, right. I'm sure that's exactly what happened.

Nope. Zero tolerance in the public school system requires that if being harassed--you run like a girl and tell.

I had the same thing happen to me my freshman year, when all I did was a simple sweep-kick on some fether who gave me a black eye.

It's silly, but currently responding to violence with violence(even defensive violence)--you get into MORE trouble than the person who initiated.

The idea is to prevent escalation.

Well, MORE may be an exaggeration, but if you gave as good as you got, the school will likely look on you as bad as the bloke who started it.

What the school is trying to teach people is that if a guy hits you, don't bash his head in with a brick. (However tempting the choice may be)

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, MORE may be an exaggeration, but if you gave as good as you got, the school will likely look on you as bad as the bloke who started it.

What the school is trying to teach people is that if a guy hits you, don't bash his head in with a brick. (However tempting the choice may be)

So just knocking someone down to go get an adult is "giving as good as you got"?

Because it's incidents like that which are getting to be pretty common.

That's how your story may go. But who do the teachers believe? The one that ran to them first?

The teachers are told not to "believe" anyone.

They're told to just dole out the punishments, as according.

1) 2x days(minimum) for whoever begun the fight.
2) 2-3 days(minimum) for the other participants in the fight.

And your problem with this is?

If you're a fast learner, you'll realise that the claim of self-defense doesn't go down well in schools. Is it fair? No. Is there an alternative other than a full scale, time-wasting investigation? Not really.

A quick thinker realises to either beat thier ass down while making sure the teachers don't get involved (which is pretty much impossible in school areas) or to simply ignore them and defuse the situation. Personally, I'm against going to teachers, you don't need that sort of reputation. Unless my brothers are involved, then it's a whole different ball game.

Emperors Faithful wrote:And your problem with this is?

If you're a fast learner, you'll realise that the claim of self-defense doesn't go down well in schools. Is it fair? No. Is there an alternative other than a full scale, time-wasting investigation? Not really.

A quick thinker realises to either beat their ass down while making sure the teachers don't get involved (which is pretty much impossible in school areas) or to simply ignore them and defuse the situation. Personally, I'm against going to teachers, you don't need that sort of reputation. Unless my brothers are involved, then it's a whole different ball game.

EF--the problem isn't so much that there's a "claim of self-defense" or no investigations(although it IS stupid as all hell that you'll dish out punishments without bothering to do any checking--especially in a clique heavy environment where people WILL cover for each other).

The problem is that your idea of "realizing to either beat their ass down while making sure the teachers don't get involved or to simply ignore them and defuse the situation" isn't always an option.

During my entire time in high school, there were a good five fights that I ended up in. Of those, I can only think of one that wasn't some idiot trying to impress his friends and getting taken down a peg by losing a fight against the "nerd" he was picking on.

The biggest problem, for me, with the way the American Public School System currently operates?

They do not properly utilize the security measures they have in place. If they bothered to check some of these video cameras, or let the resource officers actually deal with the situations(like they're TOLD to)--you wouldn't get nearly as many kids being sent home for self defense.
There were dozens of incidents I could think of where people I knew got into trouble for something as simple as throwing a return punch--but because a teacher or a principal, rather than an impartial LEO was involved, the "popular" kid or the kid on the sports team didn't get into trouble, while the kid who they thought was a bit off got the book thrown at them.

Kanluwen wrote:There were dozens of incidents I could think of where people I knew got into trouble for something as simple as throwing a return punch--but because a teacher or a principal, rather than an impartial LEO was involved, the "popular" kid or the kid on the sports team didn't get into trouble, while the kid who they thought was a bit off got the book thrown at them.

That's unavoidable. No one is impartial, least on all in the collegial setting of a high school.

Keep in mind, we're not talking about a jail sentence here.

dogma wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:There were dozens of incidents I could think of where people I knew got into trouble for something as simple as throwing a return punch--but because a teacher or a principal, rather than an impartial LEO was involved, the "popular" kid or the kid on the sports team didn't get into trouble, while the kid who they thought was a bit off got the book thrown at them.

That's unavoidable. No one is impartial, least on all in the collegial setting of a high school.

Keep in mind, we're not talking about a jail sentence here.

Yeah, but it sure as hell isn't fair when someone is forced to miss their own graduation because of some jerk throwing a punch at 'em for no reason other than "parking too close to their spot".

Kanluwen wrote:

dogma wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:There were dozens of incidents I could think of where people I knew got into trouble for something as simple as throwing a return punch--but because a teacher or a principal, rather than an impartial LEO was involved, the "popular" kid or the kid on the sports team didn't get into trouble, while the kid who they thought was a bit off got the book thrown at them.

That's unavoidable. No one is impartial, least on all in the collegial setting of a high school.

Keep in mind, we're not talking about a jail sentence here.

Yeah, but it sure as hell isn't fair when someone is forced to miss their own graduation because of some jerk throwing a punch at 'em for no reason other than "parking too close to their spot".

Then don't fight back.

If you have a feeling there's even a chance of something like that, why would you not walk away? That's what my friend did back in HS. He didn't risking anything senior year.

I always loved the solution of "don't fight back and your face pounded in".

Kanluwen wrote:I always loved the solution of "don't fight back and your face pounded in".

Never happened to me. You don't just stand there being beat on, you walk away.

That said, I can take a hit.

So can I, doesn't mean I should have to.

You don't have to. Being suspended for a few days isn't a big deal.

True. But it's still silly that it happens.

Thank God for college campuses. Where anything that happens is handled by actual police.

It is? Since when? I guess that's what I get for going to private school.

dogma wrote:It is? Since when? I guess that's what I get for going to private school.

Yeah, most public colleges have campus police forces, who are pretty much just city cops with a limited jurisdiction.

Interesting. We only had some token rent-a-cops whose only purpose was to prevent students from dealing directly with actual police.

dogma wrote:Interesting. We only had some token rent-a-cops whose only purpose was to prevent students from dealing directly with actual police.

Which is again, ridiculous.

The rent-a-cops shouldn't be doing anything outside of holding people for the police to talk to. They should NOT be getting involved or handing out any kind of punishments.

But yeah. The community college I'm at right now, we've got police officers from the actual police department who're in *charge*, and then a private security firm which is trained by the local PD.

My High School had a very large number of students (thousands), and the school eventually installed security cameras... that they failed to actually use effectively at any time.

There was a girl that was raped in a vacant building on campus, that supposedly had cameras in it. None of which were actually in use. The school was literally a football field away from a large police station. There have been several large fights in the park outside the school, and for a very long time there were several gangs that liked to hang out in the area.

As of late, things appear to have been getting 'better' in the whole city, but the history really speaks for itself overall. Apparently the 80's were an absolute nightmare at the high school.

Kanluwen wrote:
The rent-a-cops shouldn't be doing anything outside of holding people for the police to talk to. They should NOT be getting involved or handing out any kind of punishments.

You misunderstand. The rent-a-cops don't punish people, they keep them from being punished. The school might fine someone for destruction of property, or move towards kicking a given person off campus, but they don't put people in jail.

dogma wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
The rent-a-cops shouldn't be doing anything outside of holding people for the police to talk to. They should NOT be getting involved or handing out any kind of punishments.

You misunderstand. The rent-a-cops don't punish people, they keep them from being punished. The school might fine someone for destruction of property, or move towards kicking a given person off campus, but they don't put people in jail.

For minor matters like that, okay I'll give you that.

Problem is that now there's starting to be a trend towards the campus rent-a-cops dealing with *serious* crimes and handing out "academic probation" rather than reporting them to the police, like they should be doing.

All it takes is one campus rent-a-cop getting the living cripes beaten out of them by serious criminals, for that trend to take a huge swing in the opposite direction.

The most serious offenses were usually drug related (most often possession with intent to distribute). Occasionally there were rape allegations, but I can't think of one that made it past interpersonal counseling. Being a very liberal school, the student body tended to be pretty good about self-policing that sort of thing.

Found out today that the facebook group got shut down finally.

Apparently the guys who did are expelled or in the process of it.

Emperors Faithful wrote:And your problem with this is?

If you're a fast learner, you'll realise that the claim of self-defense doesn't go down well in schools. Is it fair? No. Is there an alternative other than a full scale, time-wasting investigation? Not really.

A quick thinker realises to either beat thier ass down while making sure the teachers don't get involved (which is pretty much impossible in school areas) or to simply ignore them and defuse the situation. Personally, I'm against going to teachers, you don't need that sort of reputation. Unless my brothers are involved, then it's a whole different ball game.

So you missed the part where the other kid gave him a black eye before he did anything himself?

Seriously, what are you supposed to do, let the other guy beat the hell out of you? By law, you are allowed to defend yourself with the same level of violence you are attacked with. For schools to overide that law is... poor judgement at best.

And punishing the kid who was hit first more severly than the one who swung first borders on idiocity. Self-defense is legal in America, sorry.

And how is the school supposed to know who started what? Take your word for it?

In Australia though, we don't really have that much of a problem becuase the law is getting very much involved in schools. After some deaths as a result of school fights, there are now serious consequences when something like this comes up (with restraining orders being fairly common and other punishments cropping up). So the situation isn't the same (one could isn't as bad) as it is in America.

However:

And punishing the kid who was hit first more severly than the one who swung first borders on idiocity. Self-defense is legal in America, sorry.

I agree with you on this entirely on this one. Although I still am torn between whether you have any actual witnesses to back you up, or simply claimed 'He started it!'. (which is childish to say the least)

Ehh, they mess with you at school, you execute a pet and leave the corpse on their doorstep. Or make them eat their parents. Whichever you can do easier.

To those saying a five day suspension is no big deal...lol. I don't know how it works where you live, but at my school, all work you miss is a zero. I wouldn't want to take a zero for a test, especially not because some imbecile decided tostart something (that said, fights don't really happen at my high school).

Did I ever say a five-day suspension is not going to affect your scores? No.

What I have said is that if you knew the consequences of being dragged into a fight, and you still go ahead, then you should accept them.

Dogma wrote: You don't have to. Being suspended for a few days isn't a big deal.

Emperor's Faithful wrote:What I have said is that if you knew the consequences of being dragged into a fight, and you still go ahead, then you should accept them.

You're implying that you have a choice in the matter. Running doesn't work if they're faster, they have friends, they have you cornered, you're in a particularly crowded area, etc. You're also implying that injustice is okay as long as you know about it beforehand.

It's not that hard to find a teacher in school.

I saying that there are alternatives, and people who cry foul when being punished for their fully informed decisions means little to me.

I agree logically with EF and emotively with Kaluwen.

My thinking all through high school (it's the same in college ) was this:

If someone attacks me, should I just get out of there (if they don't have a weapon and are just being a d*ck, i.e., they don't mean me serious long term harm)? Yeah.

Will I do what I should? Am I going to stop to figure out their motives? No. I'm going to fight like hell. Because I really can't tell immediately and I don't want to choose the wrong option for myself. And I'm going to be pissed. Most of the time, this can lead to a bad outcome (armbar takedowns have a nasty habit of breaking arms, knees to the face make people catch teeth, and a good stomp will burst someone's skull like an egg-though a schoolyard fight is unlikely to end in me axe stomping my opponent in the face).

For the times I really need to fight and it's a good idea to do so, do I want to be conditioned to run? No.

RustyKnight wrote: You're also implying that injustice is okay as long as you know about it beforehand.

Justice is about the order of people and events in society. Something is just if it operates in accordance with a methodology, which is itself designed to achieve an objective. Justice has very little to do with fairness, unless the order of society is based on fairness (it rarely is).

Schools want to minimize lawsuits, large fights, and extended rivalries predicated on violence. In order to do this they punish retaliation (an escalating action) more severely than attack (an instigating action). You could argue that an instigating action has an inherent effect of escalation, and that the respective punishments should be equivalent as a result. You could also argue that the defender should receive no punishment, but that seems irrational given ultimate goal of avoiding violence altogether (and practical concerns of legitimate use of force, and the availability of information).

I roll my eyes at all the claims of people who claim to curb stomp you opponents IRL at school. I doubt very much that you are all ninja's or that you fight like Rocky on crack.

In all the fights I've gotten into at school I can fairly say that I didn't always win. Went up against a rugby player. Getting speartackled hurts. Please stop with the claims that you will kill these people with your awesome super human techniques if you get into a fight, becuase it's honestly bullcrap.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, MORE may be an exaggeration, but if you gave as good as you got, the school will likely look on you as bad as the bloke who started it.

What the school is trying to teach people is that if a guy hits you, don't bash his head in with a brick while on school property. Do it off campus. (However tempting the choice may be)

Corrected your typo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vulcan wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:And your problem with this is?

If you're a fast learner, you'll realise that the claim of self-defense doesn't go down well in schools. Is it fair? No. Is there an alternative other than a full scale, time-wasting investigation? Not really.

A quick thinker realises to either beat thier ass down while making sure the teachers don't get involved (which is pretty much impossible in school areas) or to simply ignore them and defuse the situation. Personally, I'm against going to teachers, you don't need that sort of reputation. Unless my brothers are involved, then it's a whole different ball game.

So you missed the part where the other kid gave him a black eye before he did anything himself?

Seriously, what are you supposed to do, let the other guy beat the hell out of you? By law, you are allowed to defend yourself with the same level of violence you are attacked with. For schools to overide that law is... poor judgement at best.

And punishing the kid who was hit first more severly than the one who swung first borders on idiocity. Self-defense is legal in America, sorry.

No gak you people suck at this. You defend yourself. You defend yourself:
1. Enough you don't get pounded. You take the penalty and find them off campus. Then you deal with them so severely that you have a rep as a psycho badass and everyone knows never to mess with you ever ever again.
2. Defend yourself so intensely that you have a rep as a psycho badass and everyone knows never to mess with you ever ever again.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I roll my eyes at all the claims of people who claim to curb stomp you opponents IRL at school. I doubt very much that you are all ninja's or that you fight like Rocky on crack.

In all the fights I've gotten into at school I can fairly say that I didn't always win. Went up against a rugby player. Getting speartackled hurts. Please stop with the claims that you will kill these people with your awesome super human techniques if you get into a fight, becuase it's honestly bullcrap.

Did I say curb stomp? No.
Did I say superhuman techniques? No.
Would I always win? I'd always try.
And MCMAP helps against people with no idea what they're doing

Emperors Faithful wrote:And how is the school supposed to know who started what? Take your word for it?

How about (to take the example of me in grade school) when one is a known troublemaker and the other (me) is half his size? Is it okay to apply that much common sense to the issue?

Vulcan wrote:
How about (to take the example of me in grade school) when one is a known troublemaker and the other (me) is half his size? Is it okay to apply that much common sense to the issue?

Punishing someone because of prior actions without any immediate evidence is irrational, and discriminatory. In fact, the tendency of certain authority figures to make such choices makes up a good portion of the rationale behind zero tolerance policies.

There is no reason to conclude that a person with a history that includes violence has been violent in any specific situation. Nor is there any reason to assume that the smaller person did not instigate.

Funnily enough, it's ussually the smaller kid who mouths off. Though I don't often see them throwing the first punch...

dogma wrote:

Vulcan wrote:
How about (to take the example of me in grade school) when one is a known troublemaker and the other (me) is half his size? Is it okay to apply that much common sense to the issue?

Punishing someone because of prior actions without any immediate evidence is irrational, and discriminatory. In fact, the tendency of certain authority figures to make such choices makes up a good portion of the rationale behind zero tolerance policies.

There is no reason to conclude that a person with a history that includes violence has been violent in any specific situation. Nor is there any reason to assume that the smaller person did not instigate.

Wow. I... just don't know what to say to that. Aside from the little detail that (at least in America) things tend to work that way - the law-abiding citizen who is assaulted by someone with a criminal history generally gets the benfit of the doubt. Unless the subsequent investigation turns up something that proves otherwise, anyway.

For schools to punish all people in a fight equally is like jailing someone who was assaulted... for being assaulted. And that leads to a breakdown of respect for authority. Unfair authority has nothing behind it but authoritative fiat - in essence, force via the uncompromising rules. Respect comes from judgement and fairness.

So all zero tolerance does is teach that the authorities are unfair and not to be respected. I think we have enough other problems with people having little- to no respect for the authorities to teach the next generation that lesson.

Vulcan wrote:
Wow. I... just don't know what to say to that. Aside from the little detail that (at least in America) things tend to work that way - the law-abiding citizen who is assaulted by someone with a criminal history generally gets the benfit of the doubt. Unless the subsequent investigation turns up something that proves otherwise, anyway.

You have a very skewed understanding of how the justice system functions. The burden of proof is on the prosecution, not the defendant. No one gets the benefit of the doubt, except in the instance where testimony is being provided, and that's only the result of juries not understanding the nature of impartiality. Simply convicting someone on the basis of "He's done it before" is absolute nonsense that does not establish anything beyond a reasonable doubt.

You're essentially saying that we should follow the model of how things work in those cases where the system fails.

Vulcan wrote:
For schools to punish all people in a fight equally is like jailing someone who was assaulted... for being assaulted.

No it isn't, because suspension is not at all comparable to a criminal record. Nor are scholastic disciplinary functions equivalent to the law.

It should also be pointed out that "he started it" is generally not a valid legal defense (and certainly not an effective basis for a case), and if two people are discovered in the course of a significant altercation they will both generally face charges.

Vulcan wrote:
And that leads to a breakdown of respect for authority. Unfair authority has nothing behind it but authoritative fiat - in essence, force via the uncompromising rules. Respect comes from judgement and fairness.

You don't have to respect authority in order to understand that it has power over you. Some people follow the law because they fear the consequences of not doing so. Some people follow it because they consider breaking the law a fundamentally immoral act, even in those instances that the law itself is not a target of respect (the rules aren't fair, but they are the rules). And some people follow the law because they respect, and often even though they realize it is not fair. After all, the law isn't directly about fairness, its about justice as the maintenance of order.

It isn't enough to say that fairness teaches respect, because ultimately 'fairness' is nothing more than the perception of receipt of deserved punishment; something which virtually no one will accept without a good deal of maturity.

Vulcan wrote:
So all zero tolerance does is teach that the authorities are unfair and not to be respected. I think we have enough other problems with people having little- to no respect for the authorities to teach the next generation that lesson.

You don't teach respect for authority by catering to the whims of the people being punished. I have no idea why you would even begin to think that.

American adolescents respect teachers? When did this happen?

I order to avoid writing a wall of text, I'm just going to say I agree wholeheartedly with dogma.

Apart from maybe the comparison between 'fairness' and 'justice'. To me, I would say that the law and justice can be two different things, although one would hope that they are the same. I view the words justice and fairness to be synonomous.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I view the words justice and fairness to be synonomous.

Plato hates you.

Sounds like a nice guy. Never met him though.

uh...to be so young and be so sure of things...sigh