Does it say anywhere that in order to field a certain Chapter you have to be painted in that Chapter's colors?

I know WH40k is rooted in its painting origins, but is there any RULE that forbids you from painting an army whatever color you like and playing whichever Chapter you want?

It dosent say they have to be painted their chapter colours to be used as that chapter.

ie. You could paint space wolves models in ultramarines colours and use them as blood angels. given they had the appropriate gear so wysiwyg or you can get your opponent to let you use things to count as pieces from the other codex.

Basically, space wolves dont have to be grey to be used as space wolves as much as you can paint ultra's pink if your heart desires

Nope. Though you might get some people who complain about your red dark angels or something.

I actually just ran green "space wolves" this weekend and no one even cared about the paint scheme.

It depends on the person.

I for one would be mightily pissed off if you brought Ultramarines or Dark Angels and tried to pass them off as Space Wolves, mainly because I stuck with my Crappy Space Wolves codex for 10 years, so you can stick to your codex and not use ours!

It also just adds confusion, especially in a Tournament setting.

You coudl always paint them in your own scheme, come up with your own chapter name and use them as "counts as" ultras or whatever.

I would think that since the Space Wolves have dedicated model line out for them, I'd raise my brow if you brought in some DA or BT and tried to play them as Space Wolves. But that's modeling not painting.

For colors, just say they're a successor chapter and use that MEQ rule book.

DO space wolves have any successor chapters?

WYSIWIG only applies to wargear on the models. In a tournament setting, you must stick to one codex of course.

Praxiss wrote:DO space wolves have any successor chapters?

There were the Wolf Brothers, but they got squated IIRC.

You can always make up a reason XD. Just because GW has no officially recognized Successors and the fluff says that the Lords of Terra arn't particularly fond of the Wolves being so hard to control, but who knows. The Cursed 21st Founding was an attempt to remove flaws in SM geneseed. Maybe they tried to make the Space Wolves more manageable and failed, and mysteriously lost the paperwork on them :p

OK, I'm getting a lot of:

It's confusing
Others would complain
etc...

But I'm not seeing anyone say I'm doing something "illegal".

Yay for playing a different chapter each game!

I wouldn't mind if someone played smurfs etc as some other chapter (even one with it's own dex), so long as there is an intention to start a new army. I mean we can understand someone wanting to try out the wolves without having to fork out and then assemble and paint a whole new army of beakies when thier's would work fine for the time being.

However, if it gets into the state of: 'These devastators count as sky-claws, and these assault marines count as long fangs, this generic captain is ragnar, and marneus+ honour guard are his fenrisian wolves then I will have no choice but to slap you!

I play my marines as different chapters as the mood strikes me.

My models with boltpistols/chainswords might be Bloodclaws yesterday, a Crusadersquad today and vanilla Assault marines (without jumppacks, of course) tomorrow.

kuro_khan wrote:But I'm not seeing anyone say I'm doing something "illegal".

It doesn't have to be Illegal for people to:
a) Not play you ever again.
b) DQ you from the Tournament they run because they feel like it.
c) Kick you in the 'nads for being an unsportsmanlike .
d) All of the above.

I think if it has its own chapter codex then it probably should have the models to represent that chapter. I do not think the paint scheme of said models matter. If I use pink Grey Knight models and play them as Grey Knights there is no issue. If I use pink Grey Knights and play them as Space Wolves then maybe that should be a problem.

If you're sticking to the rules within Codex Space Marines and want to field a Marneus Calgar model and play him as Marneus Calgar but you want to paint him fuschia then there should not be a problem.

simply test.

hand a list to somebody who has never seen your army. have them point out each squad on list. if they fail, then you probally shouldn't be using them.

If the model is correct, then the color does not really matter.

This can cause issues with some chapters, as they have specific models.

/shrug

There's nothing stopping you using dark angels models painted pink and calling them space wolves. That's fine. The problem arises when you take dark angels painted as dark angels and are trying to pass them off as space wolves. That just smacks of lazy. It's all down to your opponents and tournament organisers if necessary. Case in point: I attended a tournament less than a month after the Space Wolves codex was released. I brought along "The Talonborn" which is what you get when you paint Space Wolves blue and replace all references to the word 'Wolf' with 'Raven'. Here they are, as taken by the tournament organisers themselves (So don't blame me that the pic's so small!)



Anyway, with the tournament so soon after the codex's release, I was the only one nuts enough to produce an army from scratch in time to enter. The big birds were Thunderwolves, and the predominant opinion i got back was "awesome". The other 'Space Wolves' entries were just generic marine armies people had called space wolves. And that was fine. No one tried to pass bikes off as Thunderwolves, or Ultramarines as Blood Claws, but it was clear who had put effort in and who hadn't, and people's opinions (and painting scores) changed accordingly.

Long story short. Paint your models how you like, so long as it's obvious and non-ambiguous what things are supposed to be. But if you try to be lazy, people will take notice. Colour doesn't matter, but cool is everything.

Remember boys, everyone is all about fluff and being creative and having fun in a tournament setting. But if you don't use the correct fluff (in your opponents eyes) then you are being a jerk. (this is a funny theme with most people who want fluff/sportsmanship/painting as part of a competitive tournament.

Personally I will use my AoBR marines with their dark angels paint with whatever codex I want. If you really don't want to play me because of it, then so be it. In a tournament setting? Stop crying and get over it. I don't make sure your eldar army is painted exactly like they are in the book do I?

Spaces marines, Dark angels, space wolves ect all use the exact same range of models. Who the heck cares how you chose to paint them? If you would really mark someone down on sportsmanship because they like the DA model range or the ultra's color scheme, I would have to say that's pretty close minded.

I'm not talking about using a squad of snipers and calling them fenrisian wolves.

I just want to use my... say green and orange colored tactical squad as Blood Angels one day, Templars another, Dark Angels on day 3, etc...

Things would be kepy WYSIWYG also.

If you guys can't get over color schemes, I just have one word...

RACISTS! :-p

CptZach wrote:Remember boys, everyone is all about fluff and being creative and having fun in a tournament setting. But if you don't use the correct fluff (in your opponents eyes) then you are being a jerk. (this is a funny theme with most people who want fluff/sportsmanship/painting as part of a competitive tournament.

+1. I think it's absolutely insane how the people who are most voiciferous about adhering to fluff/background/sportsmanship are the most eager to be unsporting jerks about all of the above.

There's no rules associated with a paint scheme. If you happen to have green marines and somebody gets on your case about playing Space Wolf rules, simply tell them that it's a psychic illusion to throw off the opposing army.

In short, no, there's nothing illegal about it. And if your opponent does pitch a huge fit, you are better off not playing them.

kuro_khan wrote:I just want to use my... say green and orange colored tactical squad as Blood Angels one day, Templars another, Dark Angels on day 3, etc...

Things would be kepy WYSIWYG also.

Well yes. Creating a custom space marine chapter which is sufficiently generic to plausibly represent all the Codex-ed chapters is the most versatile way to go. No one can really call you out on it, other than it might be a bit bland, but that's a preference thing, not a rule thing.

CptZach wrote:Spaces marines, Dark angels, space wolves ect all use the exact same range of models.

The SW have their own model range. BT and DA simply have conversion kits (Even the Sword Breathern, Veteran, and Ravenwing kits are really just the normal SM kits with the conversion kits put into them). SW infantry and elites actually have their own model range. I'd be a little disappointed if you just took you tactical squad and tried to call them grey hunters when there's a kit thats supposed to be used to make SW infantry units.

I just want to use my... say green and orange colored tactical squad as Blood Angels one day, Templars another, Dark Angels on day 3, etc...

That's fine. The Ultramarines, DA, BT, and BA actually do use the same models for everything.

LordofHats wrote:

CptZach wrote:Spaces marines, Dark angels, space wolves ect all use the exact same range of models.

The SW have their own model range. BT and DA simply have conversion kits (Even the Sword Breathern, Veteran, and Ravenwing kits are really just the normal SM kits with the conversion kits put into them). SW infantry and elites actually have their own model range. I'd be a little disappointed if you just took you tactical squad and tried to call them grey hunters when there's a kit thats supposed to be used to make SW infantry units.

Really?

Does that mean you can't field any vehicles in your Space wolves army? I mean, I don't see any space wolf specific vehicles. Your a jerk if you try and use the ultramarine ones.
I'm going to throw a fit if you have any vehicles in there, or heck any converted models since they aren't the approved model range. So you can field blood claws, grey hunters, long fangs, and a few special characters. Anything else and your getting a 0 in sportsmanship and painting.


Maybe you don't like the grey hunters model range, or maybe your not a millionaire and chose to buy the AoBR marines. Are you going to call someone a jerk because they want to mix up their armies without having to buy 5 different model range sets that are all basically the same?

Personally I would prefer the changes instead of fighting the same ultramarines army 20 times, you could play SW 5 times, Ultra 5 times, DA 5 times and DT 5 times. Idk about the rest of you, but playing the same army constantly gets kinda boring.

Yeah... while I love the UM fluff and whatnot, I'm actually sad that I painted my army as Smurfs, only because it prevents me from using multiple codexes if I get bored. Had I not done anything more than spray-painted them all orange, people wouldn't have a problem with me using any of the SM rulesets, but because I painted them up a certain way, people are pissed if I want to use them with a different codex even in friendly play.

Timmah wrote:Really?

Yes. Not the entire entire list, but they do have a range of models unique to their army lists.

There's nothing illegal about it.

That's not to say I'm not bored to tears and don't roll my eyes at all the Ultramarine armies fielding Shrike, Khan, or He'stan as their leader. Makes me wish GW had put in rules for making chapters unique, rather than chapter specific characters that change whichever army you toss them into, but I understand why SM players like it and try to keep my peace about it on the table.

Swapping them between armies that have separate codexs, rather than separate chapters in the same codex, might earn you some ire amongst the local players.

It doesn't help you that other armies don't have the option. You can't play Orks as Tyranids and be anything close to wysiwig.

Timmah wrote:Really?

Does that mean you can't field any vehicles in your Space wolves army? I mean, I don't see any space wolf specific vehicles. Your a jerk if you try and use the ultramarine ones.
I'm going to throw a fit if you have any vehicles in there, or heck any converted models since they aren't the approved model range. So you can field blood claws, grey hunters, long fangs, and a few special characters. Anything else and your getting a 0 in sportsmanship and painting.

Read better. I said INFANTRY. You know, the little box that says Space Wolf Pack on it? Yeah. They have their own infantry, and they're actually different models from the SM models.

Go to the GW site. They don't even list the Space Wolves under the Space Marines like the other deviant chapters. If you're running a SW army, I don't think its that far fetched that you build the army using the Space Wolf kits.

EDIT: Its not the same for the other three deviant chapters. The BT and DA use ALL the same models and just offer you conversion kits if you want to really get into it (or if you want to waste money you can buy kits that just have the materials to assemble a few guys). The BA have two special models, yeah, and I would think one would actually own a Baal Predator or something that looks like one when playing the unit. Same with a furioso dread.

Exactly, there are no Space wolf kits for vehicles. So I don't think you should use them.

According to you, I shouldn't use space wolf infantry models for my ultramarines and vice versa. So you shouldn't use ultramarine vehicle kits for your space wolves, just as I wouldn't use dark angels vehicle kits for anything but dark angels.

Don't you understand how ridiculous this is? Its like saying, no using conversions because its not the correct model even if its WYSIWYG.

If we had to buy new armies every time GW changed the line, we'd all be broke. I wouldn't bat an eye if somebody dropped an old school SW army on the table; ya know, the ones that people played before they had their own models.

I'm not going to be a tool just because someone didn't run out and plop down hundreds of dollars for the most up to date models.

The only difference is fluff and for casual players, fluff means absolutely diddly. I play 40k to meet up with friends that play and have a few laughs; if you're so deep in the story that you have a coniption if somebody doesn't have a certain color scheme or model, maybe you need a new "hobby" because what you're doing no longer fits the definition of a hobby.

* A hobby is an activity or interest that is undertaken for pleasure or relaxation, often in one's spare time.

CptZach wrote:So you shouldn't use ultramarine kits for your space wolves.

I have no problem not using ULTRAMARINES kits, But I will use Space Marine kits TYVM.

CptZach wrote:Exactly, there are no Space wolf kits for vehicles. So I don't think you should use them.

According to you, I shouldn't use space wolf infantry models for my ultramarines and vice versa. So you shouldn't use ultramarine vehicle kits for your space wolves, just as I wouldn't use dark angels vehicle kits for anything but dark angels.

Don't you understand how ridiculous this is? Its like saying, no using conversions because its not the correct model even if its WYSIWYG.

Like Tim you miss the point. There's an actual model range for the Pups. If there is a specific model for something, its not ridiculous to expect someone to use it, or make something that looks like it.

Gwar! wrote:

CptZach wrote:So you shouldn't use ultramarine kits for your space wolves.

I have no problem not using ULTRAMARINES kits, But I will use Space Marine kits TYVM.

Well see the main codex is actually called Codex:Space Marines. So according to RAW space marines and space wolves aren't the same thing...

Those vehicles are to be only used with Codex:Space Marines.

@lordofhats space marines do look like grey hunters...

So according to RAW space marines and space wolves aren't the same thing...

*trying to decide if that warrants a response*

CptZach wrote:@lordofhats space marines do look like grey hunters...

I hope you do better with critical reading on your SAT's than you do here. There is a kit for making grey hunters. Forgive me if I think your ridiculous for buying a tactical squad and saying their grey hunters instead of buying the kit to make grey hunters or some green stuff to convert the tacticals into grey hunters (don't know why you'd do that. The kits cost the same amount).

There's a guy in my FLGS who has gone through great lengths to make an amazing space wolf army. Yes. I will look down on you if you come in with a SM army and say their space wolves. If you're going to play an army, you should be able to collect the actual models for that army or make models that look like them.

So grey hunters don't have power armor and a bolter?

Oh wait...

CptZach wrote:So grey hunters don't have power armor and a bolter?

Oh wait...

-.-

Please. Go look at the models. Grey Hunter vs Tactical Maine. Does anything look a little different to you? If you can't notice the differences in the models then I really hope your just a 12 year old or something and not an adult.

As long as the models are armed properly, go for it. Want to use UMs as counts Space Wolves? Perfectly fine. Dark Angels counts as Black Templars? No problem. Just make sure those weapon options are correct!

Fluff bunnies may go into a tantrum, but big boys will realize they are all just toy soldiers ;-)

Heh, there are varying degrees of hobbyists.

Many hobbyists take their hobby to great lengths and detail, spending hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars on them. Ever talked to serious classic car guys, or dedicated renn-fair, civil/revolutionary/ war reinactors?

And it's fairly common for those on the super-detail end of the hobby to have some contempt for the 'dabblers', and it's also fairly common for those who don't put much, or as much, detail into it to view the super-detailed end with disbelief or hostility in return.

I'd let it happen.

But i'd turn into the worst TFG you have ever seen, and i'd get my "I'm going to beat you into the floor" list, rather than my "It's only a casual game lets have some fun" list. But thats only if it is done regularly.

I've no problems with people saying "can i use X as Y because I'm thinking about buying Y" fine, go ahead (at home all sorts of crazy 'counts-as' shenanigans occurs) But if someone in my FLGS repeatedly switches chapters but using the same models, well, its just asking for trouble from most of the regulars.

But I'm not a jerk to those of you who drop a professionally painted army on me.

What if you were to set up your masterpiece on someone and they were like, "sorry I don't want to play you" or "you get a 0 in sportsmanship because you are too good of a modeler/painter and your making my army look bad, you jerk"

dayve110 wrote:
I've no problems with people saying "can i use X as Y because I'm thinking about buying Y" fine, go ahead (at home all sorts of crazy 'counts-as' shenanigans occurs) But if someone in my FLGS repeatedly switches chapters but using the same models, well, its just asking for trouble from most of the regulars.

Why, do you not like people having fun?
I constantly switch chapters with my marines and have never had even a single person complain. Its fun to mix it up and play a different chapter every so often. This way its like I have 4 different armies for the cost of 1.

CptZach wrote:But I'm not a jerk to those of you who drop a professionally painted army on me.

What if you were to set up your masterpiece on someone and they were like, "sorry I don't want to play you" or "you get a 0 in sportsmanship because you are too good of a modeler/painter and your making my army look bad, you jerk"

Because my army looks like a duck, acts like a duck, sounds like a duck, and is in fact... a duck!
And your army looks like a duck, acts like a sheep, sounds like a cow and is in fact a crime against nature.

dayve110 wrote:

CptZach wrote:But I'm not a jerk to those of you who drop a professionally painted army on me.

What if you were to set up your masterpiece on someone and they were like, "sorry I don't want to play you" or "you get a 0 in sportsmanship because you are too good of a modeler/painter and your making my army look bad, you jerk"

Because my army looks like a duck, acts like a duck, sounds like a duck, and is in fact... a duck!
And your army looks like a duck, acts like a sheep, sounds like a cow and is in fact a crime against nature.

So because my army doesn't look exactly like GW says it should, its wrong?

Alright, well you better have 0 conversions in your army. And heaven help you if you don't paint it exactly like it is in the GW books and use the exact same paint.

Seriously, your reasoning is just sad. As I said before, fluff players get all pissy if you don't play the game and paint stuff exactly as they think it should be.

CptZach wrote:So because my army doesn't look exactly like GW says it should, its wrong?

Alright, well you better have 0 conversions in your army. And heaven help you if you don't paint it exactly like it is in the GW books and use the exact same paint.

Seriously, your reasoning is just sad. As I said before, fluff players get all pissy if you don't play the game and paint stuff exactly as they think it should be.

Its not about fluff. If there are people who take the time to make some great armies and collect or build all the proper models, YOU should not be surprised when they give you a sour look for not even attempting to do the same. Paint is irrelevant in counts as. You can simply claim a successor chapter, different faction, they fell into a vat of pink dye at the hospital, or some other craziness. Modeling is the only real concern in the matter.

Like I said. If you're going to play an army, I don't think I'm rude, or mean, to expect you to have collected or built the proper models (EDIT: A Tau Fire Warrior is not an Eldar Ranger, and a Tactical Marine is not a Blood Claw!). Fun friendly games are one thing, but tournament play is another.

CptZach wrote:

dayve110 wrote:

CptZach wrote:But I'm not a jerk to those of you who drop a professionally painted army on me.

What if you were to set up your masterpiece on someone and they were like, "sorry I don't want to play you" or "you get a 0 in sportsmanship because you are too good of a modeler/painter and your making my army look bad, you jerk"

Because my army looks like a duck, acts like a duck, sounds like a duck, and is in fact... a duck!
And your army looks like a duck, acts like a sheep, sounds like a cow and is in fact a crime against nature.

1) So because my army doesn't look exactly like GW says it should, its wrong?

2) Alright, well you better have 0 conversions in your army. And heaven help you if you don't paint it exactly like it is in the GW books and use the exact same paint.

3) Seriously, your reasoning is just sad. As I said before, fluff players get all pissy if you don't play the game and paint stuff exactly as they think it should be.

1) Not necessarily, painting a space marine green and saying its a blood angel is fine. Painting a space marine green and saying its a blood angel, then using it as black templars an hour later, then the next day using it as a space wolf is taking the
2) Someone who takes things way to far is compensating for something...
3) Firstly i didn't give any reasoning... i just said what i'd do if you did play like that, so and I'm not getting pissy, insult fail much?

LordofHats wrote:
Its not about fluff. If there are people who take the time to make some great armies and collect or build all the proper models, YOU should not be surprised when they give you a sour look for not even attempting to do the same. Paint is irrelevant in counts as. You can simply claim a successor chapter, different faction, they fell into a vat of pink dye at the hospital, or some other craziness. Modeling is the only real concern in the matter.

Like I said. If you're going to play an army, I don't think I'm rude, or mean, to expect you to have collected or built the proper models. Fun friendly games are one thing, but tournament play is another.

Not everyone plays the game for the modeling aspect. I play purely for the tactical experience. While it's nice to have a nicely painted army, it's secondary to having a well-tuned list.

You won't see me just throwing together a bunch of random stuff and trying to play with it, "for the fluff".

I play to win. I don't always play well enough to win... but winning is my goal.

kuro_khan wrote:Not everyone plays the game for the modeling aspect. I play purely for the tactical experience. While it's nice to have a nicely painted army, it's secondary to having a well-tuned list.

You won't see me just throwing together a bunch of random stuff and trying to play with it, "for the fluff".

I play to win. I don't always play well enough to win... but winning is my goal.

I'm not even talking about bare to the bones break out your box of goodies and build something from scratch modeling. I'm saying that if you're going to play a unit of Sternguard, I'd expect them to look like Sternguard. I'm sure you don't walk into a game, lay out a Necron Warrior, point to it and say "That's a Pariah."

dayve110 wrote:
1) Not necessarily, painting a space marine green and saying its a blood angel is fine. Painting a space marine green and saying its a blood angel, then using it as black templars an hour later, then the next day using it as a space wolf is taking the
2) Someone who takes things way to far is compensating for something...
3) Firstly i didn't give any reasoning... i just said what i'd do if you did play like that, so and I'm not getting pissy, insult fail much?

dayve110, you seem to be an Eldar player.

Back when there were Craftworld options, you never tried playing as the multiple craftworld (Biel-Tan/Ulthwe/Alaitoc/etc...) with the same paint scheme? You used a totally different army for each attempt?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordofHats wrote:

kuro_khan wrote:Not everyone plays the game for the modeling aspect. I play purely for the tactical experience. While it's nice to have a nicely painted army, it's secondary to having a well-tuned list.

You won't see me just throwing together a bunch of random stuff and trying to play with it, "for the fluff".

I play to win. I don't always play well enough to win... but winning is my goal.

I'm not even talking about bare to the bones break out your box of goodies and build something from scratch modeling. I'm saying that if you're going to play a unit of Sternguard, I'd expect them to look like Sternguard. I'm sure you don't walk into a game, lay out a Necron Warrior, point to it and say "That's a Pariah."

When I say random stuff, I don't mean scratch built. I mean crap models

Like with Tau, I'm not going to field Vespids.. ever. Yeah it's fluffy that Tau use other alien races.. but vespids suck; so I won't use them. Or Ethereals for that matter.

Never seen Sternguard, but I assume they're a unique model. If I used Sternguard, I'd use the sternguard models.

But a tac squad is the same as a grey hunter squad. There may be differences in the new Space Wolves box set, but I'm not going to go out and buy something just to appease fluff nazis. I'll make sure my list is not confusing; I'll hand you my list and you'll be able to guess what's what.

dayve110 wrote:
1) Not necessarily, painting a space marine green and saying its a blood angel is fine. Painting a space marine green and saying its a blood angel, then using it as black templars an hour later, then the next day using it as a space wolf is taking the

Why? Because you play some xenos army and you can't do the same thing? So basically you think everyone should be punished because you are?

Are you one of those people who would get mad if I handed you $5 and then gave your friend $100?

LOL. Go on the GW website, click space wolves, then click heavy support. All the figs say "space marines". If I play a game and say my devastators are long-fangs, they are according to the company that makes the game and the figs.

The nay-sayers are splitting hairs about bits; the only difference between space wolves and any other marine chapter are heads and shoulder pads and one or two special characters.

When I say random stuff, I don't mean scratch built. I mean crap models

Like with Tau, I'm not going to field Vespids.. ever. Yeah it's fluffy that Tau use other alien races.. but vespids suck; so I won't use them. Or Ethereals for that matter.

Never seen Sternguard, but I assume they're a unique model. If I used Sternguard, I'd use the sternguard models.

But a tac squad is the same as a grey hunter squad. There may be differences in the new Space Wolves box set, but I'm not going to go out and buy something just to appease fluff nazis. I'll make sure my list is not confusing; I'll hand you my list and you'll be able to guess what's what.

I guess we'll just have to disagree then. Different views on the WYSIWYG.

I don't use the sternguard models. I don't like the ones they sell. But I'll never walk into a game put down a tactical squad and say they're sternguard. I'm going out of my way to make a tactical squad look like a sternguard squad. And no. Grey Hunters are not Tactical Marines. The models are different, and I'd personally expect someone who plays any army to have the proper models for that army.

LordofHats wrote: And no. Grey Hunters are not Tactical Marines. The models are different, and I'd personally expect someone who plays space wolves to have said models.

And those people that started playing space wolves before the new models should just go out and spend money to make you happy? A real world example; please tell me if I'm correct on how you feel about this. A close friend of mine has a space wolves army that he bought, painted, and played with 10 years ago. Now there are new little bits and models. According to what you've been saying, he should throw those models in the trash and go out and buy new ones now that they're available. Am I correct on your stance? Because as you said, tactical marines are now different from grey hunters.

I looked at the Space Wolf models on GW's store. It was just a cursory look, but to me, it looks like basic space marines with additional options for bits? Am I wrong?

I think they have mainly bits for CCW and bolt pistols instead of bolt guns. And a few wolfy things on them, and different heads.

A few slight cosmetic changes.

kuro_khan wrote:I looked at the Space Wolf models on GW's store. It was just a cursory look, but to me, it looks like basic space marines with more guys screaming and with bad hair? Am I wrong?

Fixed that for you. In all seriousness, though, most SW models now are simply regular marine models with different bits.

kuro_khan wrote:I'm not talking about using a squad of snipers and calling them fenrisian wolves.

I just want to use my... say green and orange colored tactical squad as Blood Angels one day, Templars another, Dark Angels on day 3, etc...

Things would be kepy WYSIWYG also.

If you guys can't get over color schemes, I just have one word...

RACISTS! :-p

First of all, there's nothing ILLEGAL about this. Counts-as can be anything. But there are valid reasons why people (including me) will disagree.

Implicit in the counts-as rule is the idea that your 'counts-as conversions' (which in this case is a differently painted marine) can obviously represent the model you're deciding it counts-as.

The problem with your generic Orange & Green Marine Army is that they look like a standard Marine army. If you wanted to have them 'counts-as' Black Templars, then I'd expect you to model/paint them in such a way that makes it obvious that they're Templars and NOT regular Marines. Maybe with surplices, or crosses, or medaeval haricuts, or whatever. If you wanted them to 'counts-as' Space Wolves, I'd kinda expect them to look a bit feral or something. Just something that makes it obvious that they're Space Wolves and not regular marines.

Of course, considering three of the four Marine variants are CC-oriented, this might be really easy...

It's also part of the 'team' mentality. As Gwar said, if you collect an army, there's the implicit assumption that you should stick with them, rather than just switch to whatever the most powerful codex is. A lot of people would have a problem with their opponent playing a Marine army, then saying they're Counts-As Space Wolves as soon at the SW codex is released, and then Counts-As Blood Angels in the Spring, once THAT's the new best codex!

kuro_khan wrote:I looked at the Space Wolf models on GW's store. It was just a cursory look, but to me, it looks like basic space marines with additional options for bits? Am I wrong?

Some of the pieces are actually part of the model and not glued on bits. Most of the pieces though have SW icons and stuff molded into them. Notice the legs, guns, and some of the belts and chest pieces. Some of the things are just bits.

And those people that started playing space wolves before the new models should just go out and spend money to make you happy? A real world example; please tell me if I'm correct on how you feel about this. A close friend of mine has a space wolves army that he bought, painted, and played with 10 years ago. Now there are new little bits and models. According to what you've been saying, he should throw those models in the trash and go out and buy new ones now that they're available. Am I correct on your stance? Because as you said, tactical marines are now different from grey hunters.

So your avid Space Wolf playing friend is never going to buy another 40k kit again? That's a little confusing. I'd think an active and avid SW player would jump on some spiffy new models, not whine because he might have to replace his army because some guy on the internet thinks he should.

Here's what he does to meet my standard. He buys one kit, and spreads the love. That one kit probably has enough bits in it to put something on a good bunch his tactical marines. At 10 years, they're probably overdue for some polish anyway. Plus he'll have the spare bodies to make more models. Make them sergeants. That's good enough for me, because guess what? Now those tactical's actually look like Space Wolves!

If he's not buying anymore models or not playing enough to buy new stuff thats fine. I'm talking more about my expectations from a tournament than friendly games on the dining room table. If there are people who take the time to build paint and assemble an army using all the right models, and I know a few who do, I'd think it rude of the player with the Ultramarines to show up at a organized competitive event to take out his army and say he's playing space wolves when his army doesn't even look like space wolves.

LordofHats wrote:So your avid Space Wolf playing friend is never going to buy another 40k kit again? That's a little confusing. I'd think an active and avid SW player would jump on some spiffy new models, not whine because he might have to replace his army because some guy on the internet thinks he should.

Here's what he does to meet my standard. He buys one kit, and spreads the love. That one kit probably has enough bits in it to put something on a good bunch his tactical marines. At 10 years, they're probably overdue for some polish anyway. Plus he'll have the spare bodies to make more models. Make them sergeants. That's good enough for me, because guess what? Now those tactical's actually look like Space Wolves!

If he's not buying anymore models or not playing enough to buy new stuff thats fine. I'm talking more about my expectations from a tournament than friendly games on the dining room table. If there are people who take the time to build paint and assemble an army using all the right models, and I know a few who do, I'd think it rude of the player with the Ultramarines to show up at a organized competitive event to take out his army and say he's playing space wolves when his army doesn't even look like space wolves.

I see your point; however, my friend primarily plays chaos but owns several armies. After 10 years his army needs some canned-air more than a new paint job.

My point here is that if there were a tournament and he showed up with his army, painted in space wolves colors mind you, and wanted to play, he shouldn't catch any guff for not having the newest, shiniest figs. We're talking about a game after all, the collecting and painting is all well and good but the whole reason we go to tournaments or play at a local store is to play a game. We're not wandering salesman for GW; if it looks like what it's supposed to be, they should be able to play it.

LordofHats wrote:So your avid Space Wolf playing friend is never going to buy another 40k kit again? That's a little confusing. I'd think an active and avid SW player would jump on some spiffy new models, not whine because he might have to replace his army because some guy on the internet thinks he should.

Here's what he does to meet my standard. He buys one kit, and spreads the love. That one kit probably has enough bits in it to put something on a good bunch his tactical marines. At 10 years, they're probably overdue for some polish anyway. Plus he'll have the spare bodies to make more models. Make them sergeants. That's good enough for me, because guess what? Now those tactical's actually look like Space Wolves!

If he's not buying anymore models or not playing enough to buy new stuff thats fine. I'm talking more about my expectations from a tournament than friendly games on the dining room table. If there are people who take the time to build paint and assemble an army using all the right models, and I know a few who do, I'd think it rude of the player with the Ultramarines to show up at a organized competitive event to take out his army and say he's playing space wolves when his army doesn't even look like space wolves.

So I think this is a little OTT.

I don't think that, if you want to play Space Wolves, you should HAVE the exact models. I also don't think that people should EVER have to buy the newest kit. I certainly prefer older models, and I'd hate to be forced to include models I don't like. If he has a 2ed Space Wolf army, that's absolutely fine, for tournaments and any other situation.

My point is that, if you're playing Space Wolves, it should be obvious that they're count-as Space Wolves and NOT just Space Marines. You could make them Space Ravens, or Space Badgers, give them a savage paint job, or make them really feral looking, or really CC equipped, or whatever. It doesn't have to be wolfy either - you could do them Greek-themed, with lots of Heroes. Whatever. It should just be obvious that they're Space Wolves, not Space Marines. That's why our hypothetical Ultramarine player is looked down upon. His army is obviously one thing, but he's playing it as another.

agnosto wrote:I see your point; however, my friend primarily plays chaos but owns several armies. After 10 years his army needs some canned-air more than a new paint job.

My point here is that if there were a tournament and he showed up with his army, painted in space wolves colors mind you, and wanted to play, he shouldn't catch any guff for not having the newest, shiniest figs. We're talking about a game after all, the collecting and painting is all well and good but the whole reason we go to tournaments or play at a local store is to play a game. We're not wandering salesman for GW; if it looks like what it's supposed to be, they should be able to play it.

I do understand where your coming from don't get me wrong. Honestly, for an old SW army, I probably would be more like "Neat! Models from when I was but a little kid!" Than upset they didn't look like new models. I'm more thinking of a player with a Black Templars army deciding he wants to play SW and not even bothering to collect the SW models or make some SW looking models.

Well I run howling Griffons, a off shoot of Ultra marine, and I use Ultra marine rules some time( like Marneus, Tigurus , Cassius)...
So are you going to say that there Not Ultramairnes?

Other times I run them as Imperial Fist, so i Use Lysander.

When the Blood Angels codex comes out im going to run them as Blood angels for a bit ....
As long as you can have models that look like what there supose to be , its fine. Plus its a game and not every can spend thousand of dollars on a new army every time. When it comes out.

StarGate wrote: Well I run howling Griffons, a off shoot of Ultra marine, and I use Ultra marine rules some time( like Marneus, Tigurus , Cassius)...
So are you going to say that there Not Ultramairnes?

Other times I run them as Imperial Fist, so i Use Lysander.

You know the C:SM actually says this is ok?

Its not like I'm married to my army. They are not my "team". I have nothing truly invested in my plastic figures besides the time spent painting them.

Why would you discourage someones fun by them wanting to mix it up? You know how old it gets playing the same army every single game?

Some people don't have huge disposable income, so instead, they buy space marines, paint them nicely and then buy 4 codices. Boom, 4 different armies he can play when he wants to mix it up.

They are still WYSIWYG and if anyone were to mark me down in any score just because I choose to play my green marines as space wolves for this tournament/friendly game. Well then this hobby suddenly becomes, who has the most money, free time to paint, instead of, hey lets have fun.

How come everyone is completely fine with fluff/painters putting huge amounts of time into building 20 different armies, but when someone wants to get by on the cheap but still have variety, you jump all over them. Whatever happened to the fun you guys constantly preach to tournament/competitive gamers?

Being a dick to your opponent because of the models he decided to use or way he painted his models sure doesn't sound like fun.

RaW: Absolutely nothing against this.
HWYPI: Go for it. Dealing with Space Marines, pretty much everything translates from one army to the next. It's not going to confuse anyone. Devastators have a place in every SM codex ('cept maybe BT), Tactical Marines are in every codex, etc.

On the topic of "must be modelled correctly"- Why shouldn't also be painted correctly, have the correct squad markings, and conform to all fluff? That is just an arbitrary line in the sand.

On the topic of "army loyalty"- lolwut? Why do you feel loyalty to a bunch of plastic figs? I can see having a sense of nostalgia/accomplishment/fondness/etc, but loyalty?

If colors were an issue it would mean that unpainted or plain primed armies could not take the field. I would be concerned if your models held different or illegal weapons or configurations then the list allows for the chapter.

Also someone brought up the successor chapters issue. That works too. There are so many successor chapter that fall under the same codex, you just call them a successor and play on.

Marcus Iago Geruasius wrote:If colors were an issue it would mean that unpainted or plain primed armies could not take the field.

You'll find quite a lot of players who think that's exactly as it should be...

Also someone brought up the successor chapters issue. That works too. There are so many successor chapter that fall under the same codex, you just call them a successor and play on.

It doesn't even have to be a successor, since successors don't always follow the same organisational structure as their parent Chapter. The Blood Drinkers, for example, have been mentioned in the fluff as a strict Codex chapter, despite being descended from the Blood Angels, who more or less follow Codex structure but have their own marking scheme.

So I see no reason at all you couldn't create, say, a Dark Angels successor and have them using the Space Wolves codex.

I have a friend with an Imperial Fist army that he bounces back and forth between C:SM and C:SW quite often, simply because he says that Counter-Attack and Long Fangs fits the siege-based fluff of the IF army. Most people at our FLGS don't bat an eye at that.

I guess my problem with the whole "paint scheme = WYSIWYG" is that the line is so arbitrary. Most people don't care that if someone runs their yellow marines as SW/BA/DA/BT. However, if you run your blue and gold marines as any of those you become a power-gaming WAAC player? Where does the line fall seperating the two and who determines it?

It is should not ever be a problem for a nice 'counts as ' chapter such as they one shown in the first page of this thread. A lot of people are using the SW codex (example) to create other chapters such as White Scars since they feel the units available and rules can be used to represent their chapter. Take for example a preheresy SM legion such as the World Eaters, there arent really rules for them but going by their background we have a good idea how to build them in a manner that would properly represent their background.

On the other hand if you use a green army of codex SM to represent Black Templars for example it's obvious from some of the responses in this thread that some will take offense. If everything is WYSIWYG then I don't see any major problems with it.

G

Ok, here's my plan.

I have a GK army, I'm thinking of getting a small Space Marine force that I can ally my GKs to.

I'm not going to have any more than 20 regular tac marines.

So to you SW fanatics, if I have my 2 squads of PAGK and 2 squads of tac marines, and hand you an army list that says I have 2 squads of grey hunters on it, will you have trouble figuring out that the tac squads are grey hunters?

Technically the models representing Grey Hunters should have bolters, bolt pistols and chainswords to be WYSIWYG.

G

I was under the assumption that only special weapons needed to be modeled to adhere to WYSIWYG?

kuro_khan wrote:I was under the assumption that only special weapons needed to be modeled to adhere to WYSIWYG?

Some codexes include a rule stating that upgrades must be represented on the model. That doesn't mean that standard equipment doesn't have to be... it's just a clarification.

WYSIWYG is not a rule in the 40K rulebook. It's a gaming convention designed to make the game easier to play. The model you see on the table is supposed to accurately represent the model taken in the army list.

The definition of WYSIWYG is inherent in the name.

Back in the day the Compendium to the Rouge Trader rules There was a page or two of different marine chapters with different color schemes for different worlds and different campaigns. It just makes scene that the marines will camouflage their amour to match the environment that will be fighting in.

Just put the symbol of the chapter on the shoulder pads and vehicles and you should be good.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Technically the models representing Grey Hunters should have bolters, bolt pistols and chainswords to be WYSIWYG.

G

Incorrect.

kuro_khan wrote:I was under the assumption that only special weapons needed to be modeled to adhere to WYSIWYG?

Optional weapons and wargear must be modelled.

insaniak wrote:WYSIWYG is not a rule in the 40K rulebook.

Incorrect. Page 47.

We've already had the WYSIWYG RAW discussion a while back. It only applies to equipment, for one, so it has no bearing here. Furthermore, the consensus was that only optional equipment should be modeled.

RustyKnight wrote:

insaniak wrote:WYSIWYG is not a rule in the 40K rulebook.

Incorrect. Page 47.

Ah, there you go. I had a vague recollection of there being some mention of it in there, but couldn't find it. Yay for incomplete indexes.

Either way, the rulebook entry mentions what GW expect in regards to equipment. The rest of my post, about the general convention, still stands.

I asked this question

IMO:

SP 1: Paint is for the gratification of an authentic game.
SP 2: Any tourney who says you can't paint how you wish to is not worth paying/playing for/in.
SP 3: WYSIWYG as is now very well known to dakka is based on gear.

Erratta: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/271252.page
thats the argument.

hope that helps.

kuro_khan wrote:
Back when there were Craftworld options, you never tried playing as the multiple craftworld (Biel-Tan/Ulthwe/Alaitoc/etc...) with the same paint scheme? You used a totally different army for each attempt?

I only played one craftworld, and stuck to it, if i can win with one army and enjoy it, why change it? And besides the craftworld lists were all on the same codex, unlike the SM varient lists, who have their own codex and are a different army.

CptZach wrote:
Why? Because you play some xenos army and you can't do the same thing? So basically you think everyone should be punished because you are?

I used to have blood angels and used them only as blood angels, a few years later i then switched to a codex standard army and re-painted/bought new models.

In the end this is a hobby involving collecting, painting and gaming. Some people like one aspect over the others, i used to rush my paint jobs just so i could spend more time gaming, now i take care on each model so it looks good when i play (and woe betide any kids with sticky fingers coming anywhere near them) There is nothing to stop you painting them however you like, but as i said, most people have several lists (the "fun" list and the "butt stomping" list) don't be surprised if people look down on your attitude and decide to teach you a lesson in the finer art of gaming like a douche. In my store this wouldn't fly well at all, i guess your store/club/basement is more lenient.

dayve110 wrote:

kuro_khan wrote:
Back when there were Craftworld options, you never tried playing as the multiple craftworld (Biel-Tan/Ulthwe/Alaitoc/etc...) with the same paint scheme? You used a totally different army for each attempt?

I only played one craftworld, and stuck to it, if i can win with one army and enjoy it, why change it? And besides the craftworld lists were all on the same codex, unlike the SM varient lists, who have their own codex and are a different army.

You don't enjoy variety?

dayve110 wrote:
...but as i said, most people have several lists (the "fun" list and the "butt stomping" list) don't be surprised if people look down on your attitude and decide to teach you a lesson in the finer art of gaming like a douche. In my store this wouldn't fly well at all, i guess your store/club/basement is more lenient.

Bring on the "butt stomping list". I play for the challenge. In addition, the kind of people who would look down on me because I have a different reason for playing the hobby, are the kind of people I look down on. Godwin's Law is about to come into effect soon...

kuro_khan wrote:Godwin's Law is about to come into effect soon...

Can't see a lot of hosted images from work.

looks like someones been on /tg lately.

The issue with more 'serious' hobbyists isn't that your orange Marines are space wolves, it's that they're space wolves, and blood angels, and ultramarines....

And are you kidding about variety? As an ork player I can run horde, mech, kan wall, gun line, biker, orkwing, and freebooter armies. There is a lot of variety in most codex.

A lot more than playing base tac squads with different special rules every week anyway.

And I hate to break it to you, warhammer is not an especially tactical game, it contains dice and imbalanced armies. If you want a tactical game, stick to chess or go.

Kroot Loops wrote:The issue with more 'serious' hobbyists isn't that your orange Marines are space wolves, it's that they're space wolves, and blood angels, and ultramarines....

If it's okay for them to be each one individually, then what difference does it make to switch every few weeks? What the army was last month has no impact on what it is this month.

I say go for it, just make sure your opponent is clear about what rules you are using at the start of the game.

There are no rules in any codex or rulebook regarding painting (except Red Ones go Fasta in the Orks). Your models are yours, so paint them the way you like. If anyone tells you different, tell them to Jog on and find someone reasonable to play. If a tournament doesn't allow your differently painted army, it isn't a tourney worth supporting.

Kroot Loops wrote:The issue with more 'serious' hobbyists isn't that your orange Marines are space wolves, it's that they're space wolves, and blood angels, and ultramarines....

And are you kidding about variety? As an ork player I can run horde, mech, kan wall, gun line, biker, orkwing, and freebooter armies. There is a lot of variety in most codex.

A lot more than playing base tac squads with different special rules every week anyway.

And I hate to break it to you, warhammer is not an especially tactical game, it contains dice and imbalanced armies. If you want a tactical game, stick to chess or go.

So because space marines have less variety in their codex they shouldn't be allowed to play the other codices? ....

Warhammer is actually pretty tactical, and despite what a lot of people think, not all that imbalanced at the higher levels of competition.

Kroot Loops wrote:The issue with more 'serious' hobbyists isn't that your orange Marines are space wolves, it's that they're space wolves, and blood angels, and ultramarines....

Not picking out this poster for any particular reason, I just keep seeing this dichotomy between SERIOUS hobbyists and whatever isn't a SERIOUS hobbyist as being grounds for disallowing a multipaint Marine army.

I have read every single 40k book, including the gakky Eldar one, printed in the last 5 years and many from before that. In spite of only playing 40k for the last 2.5 years or so, I own 6 armies, several of which are fully painted to a good standard, and my investment in the hobby is many thousands of dollars. I attend tournaments as regularly as I can, and have traveled to do so.

By any metric, I am a SERIOUS hobbyist. And I have no problem with multi-painted Marine armies!

Serious hobbyists don't have problems with paint scheme or codex swapping; the ones who do are SERIOUS hobbyists who are anal about paint schemes and codex swapping. In my opinion, there's a difference.

Anal retentive people will find a reason to be anal retentive about anything, simply because they're anal retentive. Multipaint Marines are not illegal, don't detract from the hobby in terms of more people playing, wider player pool, more diversity, and hobby growth. It does somehow detract from the hobby from this strange perspective of WRONGBADFUN!!!, but I think the positives outweigh the negatives.

CptZach wrote:

Kroot Loops wrote:The issue with more 'serious' hobbyists isn't that your orange Marines are space wolves, it's that they're space wolves, and blood angels, and ultramarines....

And are you kidding about variety? As an ork player I can run horde, mech, kan wall, gun line, biker, orkwing, and freebooter armies. There is a lot of variety in most codex.

A lot more than playing base tac squads with different special rules every week anyway.

And I hate to break it to you, warhammer is not an especially tactical game, it contains dice and imbalanced armies. If you want a tactical game, stick to chess or go.

So because space marines have less variety in their codex they shouldn't be allowed to play the other codices? ....

Warhammer is actually pretty tactical, and despite what a lot of people think, not all that imbalanced at the higher levels of competition.

How do Marines have less diversity? You can play vanilla, drop pod army, bike army, dreadhead, rhino spam, scout army, etc etc.

I've never said you can't do it, but you will have to expect that there will be those that see you use the exact same models to represent standard SM chapters, BA, DA, SW, BT armies on a regular basis, and have a negative opinion of you for that reason.

I mean I saw a video of a 'ard boyz WHFB tournament, and it was table after table of unprimed, unpainted daemon armies. What a let down. Even the FLGS tournaments here require a three color minimum paint job if you want to play in a tourny or league.

I was trying to present both sides, and I still maintain; You can do it, don't be surprised if you get negative reactions from it.

Player 1 is an extremely talented painter. He spent a large amount of time gathering unit choices that are varied and look good together, often at the expense of effectiveness. This was a choice he made to make the army look better. He is lauded by hobbyists and has great contempt for anyone that does not play his way.

Player 2 is an extremely talented tactician. He spent a large amount of time gathering unit choices that work well together and allow his army to succeed in the missions placed before him. Often this involves several units on the table being the same. This was a choice he made to make the army play better. He is hated by hobbyists, and generally has contempt for no one.

I wonder when things went wrong?

Player 1 must receive full sportsmanship points every game. Regardless of the fact that he purposely brought a non-synergistic army to the game. But he sure paints well (or paid a professional to do so)!

Player 2 must receive 0 sportsmanship points, as it is a general consensus on the internet that all armies in the future bring their worst forces to battle. He will also be told to never come back to play, as his army is unfair.

The post earlier about giving well painted armies 0 for sportsmanship got me thinking about this whole concept. Is it fair to only limit one part of the game? What if everyone coming to a tournament was told that only 5 converted models were allowed and a maximum of 4 colours could be used to paint each model?

Once you start dictating how a hobby is meant to be enjoyed, where does it end? Warhammer is meant to be multi-dimensional in what draws players to the game.

Are we going to get that worked up because someone is playing a Space Wolves list and had the audacity to place something on the table without a stupid beard? Really?

Heres the deal, which i love about GW games, paint scheme doesn't matter. Paint scheme is nothing more than docterenized fluff. As along as the models on the table more or less have a high degree of "what you see is what you get" run your all white/red power armor bikes as ravenwing or what have you.
In a tournament, bring the list as said chapter, and keep it that for the duration of the tournament. If i left the "U's" off my blue power armor marines, i could run them as whatever i wanted so long as I have the models to support what i say they are. But even then, I'll claim that "in game fluff" the ultra marines have been practicing some of the white scars biker formations, and play them as white scars, as long as i have enough bikes on the field.

dayve110 wrote:In the end this is a hobby involving collecting, painting and gaming. Some people like one aspect over the others, i used to rush my paint jobs just so i could spend more time gaming, now i take care on each model so it looks good when i play (and woe betide any kids with sticky fingers coming anywhere near them) There is nothing to stop you painting them however you like, but as i said, most people have several lists (the "fun" list and the "butt stomping" list) don't be surprised if people look down on your attitude and decide to teach you a lesson in the finer art of gaming like a douche. In my store this wouldn't fly well at all, i guess your store/club/basement is more lenient.

Absolutely a great comment and on the mark! What makes one player's attitudes and hobby pursuits better than anyone else's? Only their hubris and false sense of self-importance.

dayve110 wrote: There is nothing to stop you painting them however you like, but as i said, most people have several lists (the "fun" list and the "butt stomping" list) don't be surprised if people look down on your attitude and decide to teach you a lesson in the finer art of gaming like a douche.

Sorry... this just makes me laugh. So you're accusing someone of being a WAAC powergamer because they want to play using different codexes, but to punish them you're going to bring out your "butt-stomping" list and play them like a douche?

Gornall wrote:

dayve110 wrote: There is nothing to stop you painting them however you like, but as i said, most people have several lists (the "fun" list and the "butt stomping" list) don't be surprised if people look down on your attitude and decide to teach you a lesson in the finer art of gaming like a douche.

Sorry... this just makes me laugh. So you're accusing someone of being a WAAC powergamer because they want to play using different codexes, but to punish them you're going to bring out your "butt-stomping" list and play them like a douche?

Notice how he only brings it out when a WAAC Powergamer is being a cheaty prick.

sourclams wrote:If you happen to have green marines and somebody gets on your case about playing Space Wolf rules

Hmm...

Interesting you chose the color green in your example!

I think this has gone as far as is useful...