Is the Mawloc allowed to place its original deep strike position on top of units to take advantage of its ability?

In the white dwarf it says that a mawloc arrived directly below a terminator unit and killed 2 of them.

The Mawloc doesn't have any specific rules allowing it to deep strike onto an enemy unit, but if my memory serves me correctly there wouldn't be anything preventing it normally anyway.

Drunkspleen wrote:The Mawloc doesn't have any specific rules allowing it to deep strike onto an enemy unit, but if my memory serves me correctly there wouldn't be anything preventing it normally anyway.

Agreed.

Correct, actually any DS unit could place the first model over an enemy unit, it would just mean they would probably Mishap. However the Mawloc has specific rules that tell you it doesn't roll on the Mishap table, and you place the blast marker instead.

I don't think it can deploy there but maybe it can come out on turn one?

It can ds into enemy units and when it does instead of checking for mishaps you place a large blast template over and all under take str 6 ap 2 hit. Also he may go back under and repeat the process though he can't go back under the same turn he deeps strikes.


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For those interested I can send you the rule from the codex.

On top of that any thing that survives the str 6 ap2 hit (unit, and vehicles are always hit on the rear armour) gets pushed out of the way, then the mawloc comes up, if they cannot be moved the min distance away from Impassable or w/e they are destroyed.

He is pretty nasty, but his big bro is a wee bit worse, In my opinion. (trygon!)

What makes him work well is he also has hit and run with I 4. So he can break CC and burrow his turn. And I fully agree Trygon = nastier.

Peronally, I think the Mawloc is a pretty good answer for things like Long Fang Packs or other heavy weapon squads tucked away in cover. The ability to run and hide to save a kill point or contest an objective late game is being under appreciated, in my mind.

I don't know.
You can't place the initial model of a DS on impassible terrain.
Enemy models count as impassible terrain.

Now if the Mawloc has its own rules about it then it's all good, but I don't think you can aim the first model on an enemy model....you have to place the model on the board.

So...you'd have to scatter onto the enemy, at least that's how I remember the DS rules.

There's nothing in the DS rules that say you cannot place a DS model on another one, it just says that if you do land there you will have to roll on the Mishap table. However the Mawlocs rules say you place the blast template instead of rolling on the Mishap table.

If you couldn't place the Mawloc on enemy units, there wouldn't be any point to him causing a blast template when he pops up, unless your hoping to catch a few guys on the outskirts of it.

Mawlocs ignore the normal deepstrike rules - they can pick whatever point they wish and deepstrike there (Mawloc special rule). The point where they land, you place the large blast template and everyone touched by it suffers a Str 6, AP2 hit. Then you place the Mawloc there. Anyone who is not killed by it is moved 1" away from the Mawloc, still maintaing unit coherency. If units are not able to be moved 1" away from it (like if it was surrounded by other enemy models, then it would be destroyed. Vehicles touched by it take a Str 6 hit on their back armor, even though it is a blast template there are no partial Str hits.

Where I'm a little fuzzy on the rule interpretation is if it touches enemy units in CC. The rules state they need to stay in combat with the unit they are already in CC with, but still take the damage (like if a blast weapon scattered). But everyone still needs to stay an inch away from the Mawloc, so I'm guessing the entire combat will need to be moved to maintain the distance? I didn't see anything in there about placing the template near a CC that would affect enemy models in CC - I'm wondering if that would be allowed or considered a bending of the rules, as Mawlocs don't have to abide by the usual restrictions for deep striking. I could see players getting a unit of Space Marine Terminators tied up in combat for a round, then deep striking their Mawloc right next to it so the blast template would catch them and affect them in CC (and the resulting argument that would ensue).

Sanctjud wrote:I don't know.
You can't place the initial model of a DS on impassible terrain.
Enemy models count as impassible terrain.

Now if the Mawloc has its own rules about it then it's all good, but I don't think you can aim the first model on an enemy model....you have to place the model on the board.

So...you'd have to scatter onto the enemy, at least that's how I remember the DS rules.

When he DS on top of your units they either die to a str 6 ap2 large blast template or any that are not killed by that are forced to move outside the radius template allowing the room for the Mawlok to arrive in place of the large blast template. Also if you don't have room for your unit OR vehicles, because of the proximaty of enemy units or impassible terrain, to move outside the large blast template then they are destroied as well.

That sounds fun, but from what I've read in the bat reps, it's been 'so-so' so far.

@Airmang:
I'll just have to look when I get back home.
For normal DS, you must PLACE the model on the board... you can't put a model physically on an opponents', it's not said that's allowed in the rulebook .

As for the Mawloc, as expected it has its own rules.

Yes, he can. Simple really

The Mawlocs special rules don't come into play when you deepstrike, they come into play when you mishap.

So doesn't that mean you must follow all normal deepstriking rules up until that point?

In the deep striking rules it says you have to "place" the model on the board. It can be within 1" of an enemy if you want but it has to be actually "placed" on the board. If you want to put it on top of enemy models shouldn't you only be able to do it if you can actually "place" it there on top of the enemy models?

Might be a bit tricky given all the pointy sword bits many models have...

Also if the inability to place the mawloc ontop of enemy models makes you think it is somehow useless, remember that it doesn't work like a normal blast marker. Any unit with a model under the template suffers a number of hits equal to the models in that unit.

So the best way to use it is to place your mawloc within 1" of an enemy unit forcing an automatic mishap (edit: if you actually hit on the scatter dice).

NeoMaul wrote:In the deep striking rules it says you have to "place" the model on the board.

No. You use the model as a marker for where the unit will land. Once you scatter, you deploy the initial model and then form concentric rings. If any of those models land in a no-no place, it causes a mishap. There is no prohibition to deliberately causing a unit of yours to mishap. If there was, there would be no need to explicitly forbid it in the "Misplaced" result (which forbids an opponent doing it to force multiple mishap checks).

TheJuan wrote: Also if you don't have room for your unit OR vehicles, because of the proximaty of enemy units or impassible terrain, to move outside the large blast template then they are destroied as well.

This is the part that worries me, that is so easy to abuse to murder units without saves, wounds or anything else coming into play to defend them. You should never be able to kill things without any recourse like that (not even an I check like the much maligned Jaws of the World wolf)

As to the rules query, the Deep Strike rule require the model to be placed "anywhere on the table" I'd certainly be prepared to argue that that does not permit one to set them on top of opposing models. It can certainly be placed in base to base or within one inch freely, but on top of other models is not on the table top.

So unless the Mawloc's rules change that I'd argue "permissive ruleset, no option listed for placing on other models."

Jack

Gwar! wrote:

NeoMaul wrote:In the deep striking rules it says you have to "place" the model on the board.

No. You use the model as a marker for where the unit will land. Once you scatter, you deploy the initial model and then form concentric rings. If any of those models land in a no-no place, it causes a mishap. There is no prohibition to deliberately causing a unit of yours to mishap. If there was, there would be no need to explicitly forbid it in the "Misplaced" result (which forbids an opponent doing it to force multiple mishap checks).

I didn't say that there is a prohibition to deliberately causing a mishap, what I said was that the rules are quite clear that you need to place the first model on the actual board. It doesn't say put a marker there and then place the model when it scatters.

The rules actually say "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table in the position you would like the unit to arrive". It says place the model on the table. Technically by raw you can place it anywhere right? But are you actually placing it down? Or are you cheating by just holding it over the pointy spikey squad of bloodletters with swords and banners going everywhere? Placing it down means somehow balancing it on those models.

NeoMaul wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

NeoMaul wrote:In the deep striking rules it says you have to "place" the model on the board.

No. You use the model as a marker for where the unit will land. Once you scatter, you deploy the initial model and then form concentric rings. If any of those models land in a no-no place, it causes a mishap. There is no prohibition to deliberately causing a unit of yours to mishap. If there was, there would be no need to explicitly forbid it in the "Misplaced" result (which forbids an opponent doing it to force multiple mishap checks).

I didn't say that there is a prohibition to deliberately causing a mishap, what I said was that the rules are quite clear that you need to place the first model on the actual board. It doesn't say put a marker there and then place the model when it scatters.

The rules actually say "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table in the position you would like the unit to arrive". It says place the model on the table. Technically by raw you can place it anywhere right? But are you actually placing it down? Or are you cheating by just holding it over the pointy spikey squad of bloodletters with swords and banners going everywhere? Placing it down means somehow balancing it on those models.

Wobbly Model Syndrome.

Next!

Also I agree with jackmojo. If your mawloc is somehow balancing ontop of a model (possible with a rhino), has it actually been placed on the board as per the rules?

Its not on the board, its on the rhino which is on the board. Which isn't the same thing.


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Gwar! wrote:

NeoMaul wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

NeoMaul wrote:In the deep striking rules it says you have to "place" the model on the board.

No. You use the model as a marker for where the unit will land. Once you scatter, you deploy the initial model and then form concentric rings. If any of those models land in a no-no place, it causes a mishap. There is no prohibition to deliberately causing a unit of yours to mishap. If there was, there would be no need to explicitly forbid it in the "Misplaced" result (which forbids an opponent doing it to force multiple mishap checks).

I didn't say that there is a prohibition to deliberately causing a mishap, what I said was that the rules are quite clear that you need to place the first model on the actual board. It doesn't say put a marker there and then place the model when it scatters.

The rules actually say "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table in the position you would like the unit to arrive". It says place the model on the table. Technically by raw you can place it anywhere right? But are you actually placing it down? Or are you cheating by just holding it over the pointy spikey squad of bloodletters with swords and banners going everywhere? Placing it down means somehow balancing it on those models.

Wobbly Model Syndrome.

Next!

Works only for terrain, not enemy models.

NeoMaul wrote:Works only for terrain, not enemy models.

Enemy models count as Impassible Terrain. Nothing stops you deep striking into Impassible terrain if you really really want.

Jackmojo wrote:

TheJuan wrote: Also if you don't have room for your unit OR vehicles, because of the proximaty of enemy units or impassible terrain, to move outside the large blast template then they are destroied as well.

This is the part that worries me, that is so easy to abuse to murder units without saves, wounds or anything else coming into play to defend them. You should never be able to kill things without any recourse like that (not even an I check like the much maligned Jaws of the World wolf)

As to the rules query, the Deep Strike rule require the model to be placed "anywhere on the table" I'd certainly be prepared to argue that that does not permit one to set them on top of opposing models. It can certainly be placed in base to base or within one inch freely, but on top of other models is not on the table top.

So unless the Mawloc's rules change that I'd argue "permissive ruleset, no option listed for placing on other models."

Jack

He has special rules in the codex that allow him to ds on top of an enemy unit. It is basically a assault 1 large blast str 6 ap 2 shooting attack that has no BS so subtracts nothing from the deviation and can only be used every other round starting with round 2 IF I repeat IF you roll high enough for him to come in on turn 2 from reserves. So yea not quite as great as it might seem.


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Oh and to clarify it a little more the blast happens before he is placed. The Mawloc is not placed until all wounds from the blast are resolved and any surviving units are pushed the minimum distance outside the large blast marker while keeping the same facing.

TheJuan wrote:
He has special rules in the codex that allow him to ds on top of an enemy unit. It is basically a assault 1 large blast str 6 ap 2 shooting attack that has no BS so subtracts nothing from the deviation and can only be used every other round starting with round 2 IF I repeat IF you roll high enough for him to come in on turn 2 from reserves. So yea not quite as great as it might seem.

Yeah this is fine, I have no issue with nasty blast weapons, its that little caveat about things being automatically removed if they cannot move off the template...surround 3 sides of a land raider with gaunts, strike in Mawloc, dead tank. If its' not as bad as all that, by all means let me know.

TheJuan wrote:
Oh and to clarify it a little more the blast happens before he is placed. The Mawloc is not placed until all wounds from the blast are resolved and any surviving units are pushed the minimum distance outside the large blast marker while keeping the same facing.

This resolves the rules interaction with Deepstrike fine then. I have no issues with this (beyond my general dislike for things which move your opponents units beyond their control).

Jack

I've always played that you can't deep strike on top of impassible terrain.

BGB p.14 wrote:IMPASSIBLE TERRAIN
Models may not be placed in impassible terrain unless the models concerned have a special rule in their profile granting them an exception

BGB p.95 wrote:DEEP STRIKE
First place a model anywhere on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive

I do not believe the language of Deep Strike is explicit enough to provide an exception.

Okay, So alot of Thinking based off the Mawloc, but lets face it, he cannot burrow and "resurface" in the same turn, and if you are going to Burrow him/deepstrike him in, you have to rely on Reserve rolls if you "hold" in reserve, so at the best, VERY best, he can come in on turn two, and Cause some damage, or if you deploy him, then again, Turn two, Now, If i am correct, Deep striking just states that you try to place you're model Via marker on the table, then roll you're scatter dice to determine where you wish for him to "hit" if he hits impassable terrian or within an inch of an enemy Marker, then he suffers "Deep strike Mishap" this is where the Mawloc is Different, his specific rules state that he dosn't suffer mishap for Hitting enemy units, that they suffer a Str 6 ap2 hit (not a shooting attack i belive, just a "hit", with an Ap value) Vehicles are hit on their Rear armour, and you roll the number of hits for the Number of models under the large blast template (i know there is no offical rule for that Gwar! bear with me!) anyhow. The survivers, even immobilized vehicles are "pushed" out of the way, the min distance and if they cannot, for example, surrounding the units, or they are pushed back to the edge of the table and impassable terrien, then they are Destroyed outright. Horrible i know. But lets take a look at all probabilities. First, he comes in on turn two, at best, so thats one Blast hit. A nasty one i know, but chance of not doing anything is still there, its not str 10 or nothing, it wounds on 2's mostly, but still. Now, he can still scatter "off" target as well, thus negating his effectivness all together (im sure some SM players who's Vinidcators missed with the Dem cannon can attest to how crappy -that- can be) anyhow. so one turn three, he can burrow again, then turn four, he comes up again, so far thats -two- overall chances of hitting. Turn five he can drop below again, and if it ends, he is destroyed (he is still in reserve when the games ends, thus he is considered a "lost" Unit, ie gives a kill point and all that jazz, if i am still correct) if the game continues to turn six, he gets a third, and final chance to do a str 6 ap2 large blast hit on probably a single unit, or something. Now. He costs about 170 points, base. is that -really- worth it for 170 points? he has 6 S 6 T and 6 W but a 0 BS 3 WS and 2 Attacks? (maybe 4 i can't remember off the top of my head) and thats without any fun upgrades. Yeah he is a Nasty thing to try and kill, but put one group of Power fists/thunder hammers on him and he is toast! and yeah he has Hit and run, but what if he fails to break, he just lost even more usefulness.

So in Review, he is expensive, has at the very best, with alot of risk only 3 chances of doing a S6 AP2 Large blast hit, he isn't to terrible awesome in close combat, nor is he terribly awsome for bringing in reserves, or well, being nasty. He has waaaaaay to many "risk" Factors, like, what if he scatters? he just lost one of a possible three chances to do anything.

Im just saying, id rather spend the 30 points for his big Bro, Mr. Trygon or Trygon Prime (200 and 245 points respectfully) for a close combat monster from heck, who is terribly nasty in close combat (7 attacks on the charge, and always able to reroll failed hits in close combat? str6? T6? 6 wounds?! OUCH!) and his Deepstrike lets him stop the min distance away from "mishap" and then his hole can be used by other infantry in you'r army to come up withing 6 inchs of it! great for a "sneaky back attack" on some of those "Devistators" or "Imp. Gaurd arty"



Just my humble opinion

I'm not exactly sure why everyone thinks that the deepstrike rules apply to the Mawloc. You pick a point - scatter. From there, you place a large blast template. Everyone hit, takes a Str 6 AP2 hit. Whoever survives, moves off the template. Then you place the Mawloc there. There aren't any models for him to land on, as they have already moved away from the large blast template if they survived.

Yes it could be abused by surrounding a land raider with gants and forcing it to have to move, but the chances of that happening and everything lining up are still pretty small. Of course, SM had the same problem in the last edition with the automatic disembark that had to happen when vehicles were damaged and the entry points were blocked by horde armies.

Something everyone is forgetting, when they say that you have to be lucky with your reserve rolls to bring it in. Start it on the board Turn 1, burrow down Turn 1 at the end of the movement phase, then you auto pop up Turn 2 - no requirement to roll for reserves then.

even if you cant place him on an enemy model [impassable terrain], you can place him in Base to Base with an enemy model, resolve the template then they get pushed away.

since at the end of the movement he will not be within 1" of the enemy model.

Mattbranb wrote:I'm not exactly sure why everyone thinks that the deepstrike rules apply to the Mawloc. You pick a point - scatter. From there, you place a large blast template. Everyone hit, takes a Str 6 AP2 hit. Whoever survives, moves off the template. Then you place the Mawloc there. There aren't any models for him to land on, as they have already moved away from the large blast template if they survived.

He is outright immune to Deepstrike mishaps (either from enemy models or in general)? Depending on orientation he could still indeed end up within 1 inch (5 inch long oval/5 inch diameter round template no?).

Does hiding in cover provide some protection from him or has the anti drop pod/deepstrike tight formation been rendered unusable if the mawloc is in play?

Mattbranb wrote:Yes it could be abused by surrounding a land raider with gants and forcing it to have to move, but the chances of that happening and everything lining up are still pretty small. Of course, SM had the same problem in the last edition with the automatic disembark that had to happen when vehicles were damaged and the entry points were blocked by horde armies.

Previously they had to beat the transports armour at least. This can be done just with clever use of reserves and lictors (without the lictors with some luck). When you can auto remove an opponents models simply based on the order you deploy deepstriking reserves (for example), that's a bit to much for me.

Jack

It is not a shooting attack so no cover saves

Not immune to mishaps, scattering off the table would surely generate a mishap - the wording for the trygon is exactly the same as for a drop pod.

Nosferatu is right - people who think they are just going to stand back and shoot with devastator squads and stuff like that - beware the Mawloc!

Seriously though it's GW and you know when they come out with a nice new expensive model, they're going to come up with great rules for it. Its just the people who want to find loopholes (i.e. autodestroying landraiders and the crew inside) that abuse it.

Mattbranb wrote: Its just the people who want to find loopholes (i.e. autodestroying landraiders and the crew inside) that abuse it.

This is like claiming that people who put scoring troops in a landraider and park it on an objective are using a loophole to claim the troops are scoring.

Not sure this ability would affect vehicles as nothing else pushes a vehicle, not even other vehicles.

Grabbin' Klaw or A Word in Your Ear.

+ others

I stand corrected. Does the lash of submission move vehicles?

No, that specifies "non-vehicle".

CKO wrote:Is the Mawloc allowed to place its original deep strike position on top of units to take advantage of its ability?

In the white dwarf it says that a mawloc arrived directly below a terminator unit and killed 2 of them.

The real kicker: You can scatter into your own units and do the same damage to your own units. Or so it seems from the wording.

The real question:
What if you scatter into an assault?

agnosto wrote:Not sure this ability would affect vehicles as nothing else pushes a vehicle, not even other vehicles.

I can't remember, but doesn't the Monolith's special rules as pertains to deep striking move enemy models out of the way if it would otherwise land on them?

agnosto wrote:I stand corrected. Does the lash of submission move vehicles?

Pavane of Slaanesh can move walkers (Since "they can dance")

It is not a shooting attack, therefore nothing is wrong with scattering into an assault

work out which models are hit from each side, roll saves etc and push them away. They would have to maintain coherency but i can see them potentially being pushed out of combat, depending on terrain

CKO wrote:Is the Mawloc allowed to place its original deep strike position on top of units to take advantage of its ability?

In the white dwarf it says that a mawloc arrived directly below a terminator unit and killed 2 of them.

yes thats kind of the point.


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Che-Vito wrote:

CKO wrote:Is the Mawloc allowed to place its original deep strike position on top of units to take advantage of its ability?

In the white dwarf it says that a mawloc arrived directly below a terminator unit and killed 2 of them.

The real kicker: You can scatter into your own units and do the same damage to your own units. Or so it seems from the wording.

The real question:
What if you scatter into an assault?

no the real question is:

can i abuse this rule to break combat for my units of 'going to die guants'

I believe the Mawloc has rules regarding units in Combat, and tells you to place as many back in BtB as possible.

Yes his blast affects vehicles (Str 6 on the back armor - no MC bonuses though to it) and vehicles are pushed to at least 1" away from it. They maintain the same orientation though (not spinning it around or something weird like that). Note - vehicles only have to be touched to take the full Str 6 - no partials or anythign like that for half strength.

Yes it affects units in CC - same as if a blast weapon scattered into combat. Models are still moved but must try to maintain coherency. This prevents it from popping up and being in BTB contact with a unit (and then be able to assault).

I’m astounded at how much more reasoned this discussion went here at Dakka Dakka as opposed to Warseer.

I think there are some people over at Warseer who fantasize that they’re lawyers destined to thread the needle through cherry-picked rules resulting in a game-breaking epiphany.

is there anyone out there who really believes a Mawlock can not deep strike on top of your opponents units?

It's cheesy but I don't doubt it's true.

BRB p95 wrote:First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position you like the unit to arrive, and roll the scatter dice.

BRB p3 wrote:A model is considered to occupy the area of its base

BRB p11 wrote:To keep this distinction clear, a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting.

BRB p95 wrote:In the movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle.

From what I know of the Bug book its wording is to the extent of:
If the Mawloc Deep Strikes into an enemy model do not roll on the mishap table... do yadda yadda yadda.

I would contend that Deep Striking constitutes as a "move" in the movement phase, as per the wording "move any further", so a Deep Striking unit cannot be placed within 1" of an enemy. Placing the first model on the table on top of another model or base would also not be placing the model on the table.

I think the intent is to place the Mawloc close so that you have the opportunity to scatter and create the effect but not specifically target as you are "burrowing underground" with only a general idea of where things are.

I'm also of the opinion that by RAW you couldn't place the first model on top of another model in order to start the Deep Strike move.

Unless the Mawloc rule for Subterranean Assault specifically permits the model to be placed ON TOP of other models then it won't work to start the Deep Striking process.

paidinfull wrote:

BRB p95 wrote:First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive, and roll the scatter dice.

So the unit has not arrived yet?

i agree that unless the rule says you may place the template centered on a model you cannot pick a model, however you can pick the center of the template to be in base to base with a model since at no point in time would the mawloc move within 1" of the model due to the fact its movement comes from below the table, and by the time the mawloc would be placed in base to base RAW the models are moved to the edge of the template and what was within 1" is no longer within 1" so it ends its move not within 1" of an enemy model and at no point of its move was within 1".

I considered that thought.
"It's not arrived yet so it can be placed anywhere" per Deep Strike.

That's in part why I included the other relevant quotes.

Do you feel that placing a model on top of another model to be the same as placing it on the table?

To clarify I originally thought the intent might be to target a unit, sort of like a Grenade Pack. I do feel that the RAW says other wise per those quotes.



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blaktoof wrote:i agree that unless the rule says you may place the template centered on a model you cannot pick a model, however you can pick the center of the template to be in base to base with a model since at no point in time would the mawloc move within 1" of the model due to the fact its movement comes from below the table, and by the time the mawloc would be placed in base to base RAW the models are moved to the edge of the template and what was within 1" is no longer within 1" so it ends its move not within 1" of an enemy model and at no point of its move was within 1".

When you Deep Strike you are placing a Model, not a template... a valid point none the less.

Deepstrike is movement -- few contend otherwise. Until the DS is resolved, the models are placed only to figure where the movement will occur.

Placement of the model on top of something that is on top of the table should satisfy the issue or area terrain would be disallowed; as could ruins, rubble, rivers, difficult/dangerous/impassible terrain or oh, say . . . paint.

kirsanth wrote:Placement of the model on top of something that is on top of the table should satisfy the issue or area terrain would be disallowed; as could ruins, rubble, rivers, difficult/dangerous/impassible terrain or oh, say . . . paint.

That's a pretty big stretch to say that there is a similar comparison between a piece of Terrain and an opponent's model, hence why I posted

BRB p3 wrote:A model is considered to occupy the area of its base

I don't pretend to know the intent behind the rule, as it's not out yet, but prior to this I wouldn't have let an opponent place a model on top of my own and claim it as "on the table". Your logic would also permit a player to deploy one model on top of another... say a marine standing on a rhino. "why he's on the table?" a player could claim.

The rule for Deep Striking says a model must be placed on the table. In game play for ease of play we don't always do this, we use a template or a die, but RAW specifically states

BRB p95 wrote:First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table

If you do not place the model on the table then you are technically not following RAW.

Now Kirsanth, do you normally deploy or place models on top of other models and say that they are on the table?

Ok go back and read what I posted about this in this thread. It doesn't matter how you argue it it is going to happen. The codex special rule over rides the rule book.


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Also yes it effects vehicles.


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Che-Vito wrote:

CKO wrote:Is the Mawloc allowed to place its original deep strike position on top of units to take advantage of its ability?

In the white dwarf it says that a mawloc arrived directly below a terminator unit and killed 2 of them.

The real kicker: You can scatter into your own units and do the same damage to your own units. Or so it seems from the wording.

The real question:
What if you scatter into an assault?

The assualt is hit but don't move I think. I know they are hit though.

Models are treated as impassable terrain. Page 13.
And (see page 14) Mawlocs have permission to DS onto them.

I know that if any of your models hit friendlies/enemies, impassible terrain. you roll in the mishap table.
Simple as that, sure as sure.

TheJuan wrote:Ok go back and read what I posted about this in this thread. It doesn't matter how you argue it it is going to happen. The codex special rule over rides the rule book.


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Also yes it effects vehicles.

Did you quote a rule somewhere? I didn't see it.

I have seen the rules so I know what his ability does, just not if it permits the declaration of starting a Deep Strike on top of a model.

The point of contention isn't that if the Mawloc scatters onto a unit what happens it's... Can you legally declare placing the Mawloc on top of another model.

To be clear... Is placing the Mawloc on top of another model "placing a model on the table"?
It can easily be argued that placing a model on top of another model isn't placing it on the table... it's placing it on another model.



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kirsanth wrote:Models are treated as impassable terrain. Page 13.
And (see page 14) Mawlocs have permission to DS onto them.

Do you have a quote of the Mawloc rules? Otherwise your points are completely irrelevant.

BRB p13 wrote: Impassable Terrain says Models may not be placed in Impassable Terrain unless the models concerned have a special rule in their profile granting them an exception.

All I saw when I read the rules was, if the Mawloc scatters onto enemy models do this. Nothing about placing the model on the table. Something to consider is that the ability occurs AFTER the scatter is rolled. You still haven't addressed the act of starting the Deep Strike. Does the Special Subterranean Assault Rule allow the Mawloc to start it's Deep Strike move by being placed on top of other models? It's not a complicated question... I'm all for letting it do that if the RAW says so.

The interesting piece is that this makes the Mawloc an effective unit to break-into assaults. (Yes, there are other units that can fire into assault, but the Mawloc's blast can be quite an effective Blast attack, that can purposefully directed into assaults.)

There is the risk of hitting your own units, naturally...more dead bugs ftw.

paidinfull wrote:Do you have a quote of the Mawloc rules? Otherwise your points are completely irrelevant.

In fairness, the same can be said for you. In short, yes, they can DS onto a unit on purpose. Any ambiguity is covered by pages 13,14, and 95 of the main rules.

paidinfull wrote:

TheJuan wrote:Ok go back and read what I posted about this in this thread. It doesn't matter how you argue it it is going to happen. The codex special rule over rides the rule book.


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Also yes it effects vehicles.

Did you quote a rule somewhere? I didn't see it.

I have seen the rules so I know what his ability does, just not if it permits the declaration of starting a Deep Strike on top of a model.

The point of contention isn't that if the Mawloc scatters onto a unit what happens it's... Can you legally declare placing the Mawloc on top of another model.

To be clear... Is placing the Mawloc on top of another model "placing a model on the table"?
It can easily be argued that placing a model on top of another model isn't placing it on the table... it's placing it on another model.












































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kirsanth wrote:Models are treated as impassable terrain. Page 13.
And (see page 14) Mawlocs have permission to DS onto them.

Do you have a quote of the Mawloc rules? Otherwise your points are completely irrelevant.

BRB p13 wrote: Impassable Terrain says Models may not be placed in Impassable Terrain unless the models concerned have a special rule in their profile granting them an exception.

All I saw when I read the rules was, if the Mawloc scatters onto enemy models do this. Nothing about placing the model on the table. Something to consider is that the ability occurs AFTER the scatter is rolled. You still haven't addressed the act of starting the Deep Strike. Does the Special Subterranean Assault Rule allow the Mawloc to start it's Deep Strike move by being placed on top of other models? It's not a complicated question... I'm all for letting it do that if the RAW says so.

You didn't read them well then. You simply place the template roll for deviation if no lictor is within 6 inches roll to wound for everything under template enemy stuff moves the minimum needed to clear template if they can't they are destoied.

THEN after all that you place the mawloc model.

Dear @theJuan
a "quote" and you paraphrasing are two different things.
You do understand that right?

The copy I have seen makes no reference that:
A) A Mawloc maybe placed in impassable terrain
B) A Mawloc maybe placed on an enemy model

As @Kirsanth was so clever to point out. You may not legally place one model on top of the other, unless their special rules say so.

The correct steps for Deep Striking a Mawloc as I have read them are...
1) Place the Mawloc on the table where and in the position you would like it to arrive, this may not be over or on top of an enemy model
2) Roll for Scatter
3) If the Mawloc scatters onto enemy models do not roll on the mishap table, instead follow rules for Subterranean Assault

You keep referring to placing a template which only happens in the event the Mawloc scatters on to enemy troops. You do not use a template in 5th edition for normal Deep Strike rules, you place a model in the unit on the table not the Large Blast Template.

If the Mawloc rules do not
- Allow the model to be placed in impassable terrain
- Allow the model to be placed on top of an enemy model
- Follow a different deep strike process, IE you are placing a template first instead of a model

You can not legally target a unit to be hit by his Subterranean attack unless a scatter is rolled and the scatter result takes it on to enemy troops.

Your comments are meaningless at this time unless you are able to provide an actual quote from the Tyranid codex that allows one of the 3 things I've listed above. You continuing to say "this is what I say" is not part of the tenents of YMTC.

Back up your statement with a quote from the Codex that proves otherwise and I will happily admit I am wrong.

I think paidinfull has very clearly laid out the RaW for this.

The Mawloc's special rules come into play not when you begin its deepstrike, but when it mishaps on an enemy model.

Models can only be placed on impassable terrain if they have a special rule allowing it. The mawloc does not have this. All it has is rules for handling a mishap if it actually occurs.

The only potential counter point to this is on page 95 where it says "place the model anywhere on the board". The key word I guess is anywhere. However this rule is in contradiction to the rule on page 14 which states models may not be place in impassable terrain unless they have a special rule for it (which the mawloc doesn't).

I swear to god people really need to develop reading comprehension skills.

General Rule
p. 14 Models may not be placed in impassable terrain unless the models concerned have a special rule in their profile granting them an exception

General Rule
p. 13 Remember that other models, friends and enemies, also count as impassable terrain

Special Rule
p. 95 First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive.

Deep strike is a special rule – it’s listed under the Mission Special Rules. EVERY sentence within the deep strike rule is special. Special rules make exceptions to general rules; this instance being that you can place a model anywhere on the table in contradiction of the general rule that you can place a model anywhere on the table outside of impassable terrain or within 1” of an enemy figure… that’s what ANYWHERE means. It means ANYWHERE.
What’s more, when this issue is FAQ’d, it will certainly be FAQ’d in the way I’m interpreting it. So, by all means, continue to waste your time on this argument. I’m done here. My gaming club will certainly be interpreting things correctly so, if you feel like enjoying your new Tyranid codex as it was intended outside the influence of a handful of players who fancy themselves lawyers;

http://www.legionsgames.com/phpBB3/calendar.php?view=event&calEid=419&sid=ee3b9a55e72941156aa804c95c9dbcb9

Your attitude is laughable Incarna.

Disagreeing is fine, but doing so in a rude way and holier than thou attitude is childish.

The term anywhere is not specific enough to grant an exception. If a rule could use non-specific phrasing to allow you to place models in impassible terrain, why bother to even state that a special rule is needed?

Under your interpretation, the phrase "unless the models concerned have a special rule in their profile granting them an exception" has no function. Without that phrase, special rules would still grant an exception using similar wording simply by the nature of the ruleset - specific rules override general ones.

If you interpret it as I do, that you need a specific statement in a special rule exempting it from the limit of not placing in impassible terrain, on the other hand does give function to that phrase.

NeoMaul wrote:I think paidinfull has very clearly laid out the RaW for this.

The Mawloc's special rules come into play not when you begin its deepstrike, but when it mishaps on an enemy model.

Models can only be placed on impassable terrain if they have a special rule allowing it. The mawloc does not have this. All it has is rules for handling a mishap if it actually occurs.

The only potential counter point to this is on page 95 where it says "place the model anywhere on the board". The key word I guess is anywhere. However this rule is in contradiction to the rule on page 14 which states models may not be place in impassable terrain unless they have a special rule for it (which the mawloc doesn't).

Agreed. Have the new nid codex in front of me, and nothing in it gives the Mawloc a special rule for how it deepstrikes. IF it deepstrikes and lands on a unit, it details how to handle the situation. But there are no special rules allowing you to place it over other models. Best you can hope for is a good scatter.


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incarna wrote:I swear to god people really need to develop reading comprehension skills.

Social skills are valuble as well.)

Dracos wrote:

Disagreeing is fine, but doing so in a rude way and holier than thou attitude is childish.

QFT. Users are reminded of the posting guidelines.

@mikhaila
Thank you for verifying for us, but if you would be so kind as to provide a quote for Subterranean Assault I would greatly appreciate it. You or I or theJuan, saying this is how the rule is worded isn't as helpful as having the RAW to compare. From what I remember it has the "USR" Deep Strike (Even though Deep Strike technically isn't a universal special rule) and Subterranean Assault as you've pointed out.

@Dracos
I agree with you that I do not feel the term "anywhere" is an exception to permit any model to be placed in impassable terrain that does not have a special rule that permits it. Before this I don't think any of us actually attempted to DS on impassable terrain so it hadn't occurred to me, but I had always had the impression you couldn't intentionally Deep Strike on enemy models or impassable terrain.

@Incarna
A question.
Prior to the Bug Codex coming out, would you have permitted your opponent to place a model on top of another model?
Would you permit your opponent to purposefully begin a Deep Strike move in impassable terrain?
How about a Drop Pod or Monolith? Can a Monolith begin it's Deep Strike move in impassable terrain? Neither a Drop Pod nor a Monolith may be placed in impassable terrain.
Here is a quote for the Monolith

By RAW neither a monolith or drop pod may target a point, to begin their Deep Strike move, that is considered impassable terrain. No model that I am aware of may, though it's possible skimmers can choose to "float over" impassable terrain and a couple skimmers have that rule.

An example of special rules that do permit models to be in impassable terrain are:


If you cannot see the above images please see Codex Necrons for Natural Law(C'tan), Wraithflight(Wraiths), Deep Strike(Monolith)... i'm just way too lazy to type all that up.

Gwar, to his own undoing, pointed out something that I feel even further supports the RAW, no model is allowed to be placed in Impassable terrain unless they have a special rule that permits it

BRB p.95 wrote:3-4 Misplaced Your opponent may deploy the unit anywhere on the table (excluding impassable terrain, but including difficult terrain, which of course counts as dangerous for deep striking units!), in a valid deep strike formation, but without rolling for scatter.

This clearly establishes a precedent that a valid Deep Strike placement is not achieved by placing a model in impassable terrain.

It's quite possible that the RAI for this Mawloc is as you and I first thought. TRY to Deep Strike onto enemy models. At this point the RAW doesn't indicate that, from what I understand, it only adjusts the Mishap result in the event you scatter onto enemy models.


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Correction a Monolith could target Enemy Models as it is a skimmer, though the Monolith rule only seems to effect the Terrible Accident result on the Mishap table.

paidinfull wrote:A question.
Prior to the Bug Codex coming out, would you have permitted your opponent to place a model on top of another model?

Yes, the previous bug codex had spore mines as FA choices, pretty much for exactly that reason.

Please note that the spore mines you are referencing also follow the normal Deep Strike rules.
"Coming into contact for any reason" could make it an exception to legally being placed on the board first.

BRB p. 95 wrote:First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive

Again, the normal Deep Strike process is to place a model on the table first. "Detonation" is a special rule that would allow it to be placed onto enemy models, but not in impassable terrain.

So you think it is not allowed to place models on terrain?

Or ruins?

Or one of those battle boards that is covering the table?

Or paint?


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Also, contact is made after the DS -- otherwise they could NEVER miss.

Not sure what your point is.
You quoted the rules so I'm confused why you are focusing on "paint"...

Would you be able to start a Deep Strike move with a Drop Pod by placing it in Impassable Terrain? No.
Would any model without a special rule that allows it to enter impassable terrain be considered legally placed if deployed/place in impassable terrain? No.

p13 Models = Impassable Terrain
p14 Models may not be place in Impassable Terrain
p95 First place a model anywhere on the table
p95 Your opponent may deploy the unit anywhere on the table (excluding impassable terrain)

It's pretty clear that unless a unit has a special rule that permits it, a RAW Deep Strike move may not begin if the model cannot be placed legally on the table.

You seem to think that placing a model on top of another model is legal, when by what you've quoted it's clearly not.


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#contact is made afterwards
If that is your sentiment then you are not able to begin a Deep Strike move with the Spore Clusters on top of another model.

Focusing on?

No.

You keep saying that models must be ON THE TABLE.

Not on things on the table.

Also, the Deepstrike move begins off the table. A model is placed -- on the table -- to represent where the move will take place. When the scatter is resolved, (even scatter of 0") the unit then moves to the location described.

DS allows placement "anywhere". Not "anywhere except in terrain". "Anywhere on the table" is easily read as an allowance to be placed anywhere on the table.

@Kirsanth
After your point of illustrating that models are impassable terrain and that models may not be placed in impassable terrain unless permitted, you are completely contradicting yourself.

You're attempting to twist the RAW to say something it isn't. Under the DS rules no model is allowed to begin it's DS move in impassable terrain, unless it has a special rule (Not DS) that permits it.
Does the Mawloc have a rule that allows the controlling player to place the model on top of another model or in impassable terrain?

The DS does not begin off the table.
You will notice the word FIRST indicates the point at which the move begins because that is the FIRST thing you do.
Nowhere within this text does it state as you have claimed
1) The model placed is a "marker" and should be ignored for all other purposes
2) That normal Deep Strike moves can begin by placing a model in impassable terrain
3) The Mawloc is an exception to the normal DS sequence

You will also note the sentence.
They may not DS directly inside a transport vehicle or a building which will count as impassable terrain as normal.

I really think this conversation is done unless you are able to provide a quote from Codex Tyranids that specifically permits a Mawloc to begin it's DS move by being placed on an enemy model. The only thing I have seen handles the event that the Mawloc scatters onto enemy models and then what to do instead of rolling on the Mishap chart.

And impassable terrain normally causes mishaps, normally.

Interestingly enough, there are models allowed to be placed on impassable terrain, normally -- so the caveat is letting you know that the DS cannot be resolved normally when impassable terrain is scattered into (even 0").

You will also note that the "may not deepstrike into" part is talking about the resolution of the DS, not the placement of models.

I started reading this with the belief a unit could DS wherever it pleased, there just was never a good reason to try to DS into a 'mishap' in general. After reading most of the arguments I believe Paidinfull has it 100% as far as RaW are concerned.

That being said, while I will point this out to my opponent so he is aware of the rule, I have every intention of allowing him to DS his Mawloc into my troops, transports et cetera if he chooses to as per TMIR (which is a rare appropriate application of that particular rule!).

Paidinfull,
You keep quoting the deepstrike rules, but are missing something about the Mawloc. I've put this in the earlier posts, but I think folks are missing it. I'm pulling the deep strike verbage from the rulebook quote you used (don't feel like retyping the whole thing).

Deep strike - you pick a point and place your model there. Scatter - then place the other models in the squad around it, with anyone who is closer than 1" away from an enemy model is treated as a mishap. Got it - no argument.

Mawloc - place a Marker anywhere on the board. Note - marker, not the model. Scatter. Resolve the large blast template at Str 6, AP2 with the center of the large blast template at the scatter point. Anyone in the blast is affected. Anyone who survives is pushed off the template. Anyone who can't be pushed off the template (per impassable terrain or other enemy models) is automatically destroyed. THEN the Mawloc comes in where the marker was.

I see everyones argument about the deepstrike rules and how it could apply to the Mawloc. Deepstriking though requires you to place your model at the point where you want to scatter off of, which would violate the impassable terrain rule if enemy models are there. The Mawloc model though, is not going on that point, which is why they specify the marker, then blast template, then moving enemy models, then placing the Mawloc. If they didn't include the portion with moving enemy units the minimum distance to get them off the blast template, I would agree with your logic.

Additionally, and as much as I hate to say it, the way they played it in the White Dwarf agrees with the argument I presented. I know they don't always get stuff right (reference Warriors of Chaos Eyes of the Gods rule), but in this case it makes sense.

@calypso2ts
Spot on. If you feel the intent is to play it that way please do. This is a social game and exceptions can be made at the table to improve the fun and game play for both players.

@Kirsanth
You're grasping at straws to keep your logic together. Believing that 3x separate instances that explain models don't belong in impassable terrain, now some how are irrelevant because you say so, is preposterous. Models don't belong in impassable terrain it's a simple fundamental rule in the game. The statement where "count as impassable terrain as normal" is referenced also, includes the fact that models are not allowed to be placed in impassable terrain, as when a player Deep Strikes, he treats impassable terrain as the unit normally would treat impassable terrain... meaning you can't be placed in it. You can't target a place you can't legal land, all of the rules are pointing to this conclusion.
Impassable terrain is just that, a place where your models cannot be placed.
Models cannot be placed or move or go or pass, into Impassable terrain unless they have a rule that specifically allows them to. The Deep Strike rules are not an exception to this, as there are instances in the rules for resolving Deep Strike that continue to support "Hey, it's impassable terrain... You don't belong there!"

It's gotten to the point where the RAW clearly doesn't support your claims and it's ridiculous for you to think that any model may be placed on top of other models, when that is made clear on p13 and p14 that they can't do that unless they have some rule that permits it. You've provided no quotes that support this exception, you haven't quoted the rules for the Mawloc which would be the only place that would permit such an action, and you have continued to contradict yourself.

Nothing supports your stance that you can place the Mawloc on top of other models for resolving a normal Deep Strike move.



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Mattbranb wrote:Mawloc - place a Marker anywhere on the board. Note - marker, not the model. Scatter. Resolve the large blast template at Str 6, AP2 with the center of the large blast template at the scatter point. Anyone in the blast is affected. Anyone who survives is pushed off the template. Anyone who can't be pushed off the template (per impassable terrain or other enemy models) is automatically destroyed. THEN the Mawloc comes in where the marker was.

I see everyones argument about the deepstrike rules and how it could apply to the Mawloc. Deepstriking though requires you to place your model at the point where you want to scatter off of, which would violate the impassable terrain rule if enemy models are there. The Mawloc model though, is not going on that point, which is why they specify the marker, then blast template, then moving enemy models, then placing the Mawloc. If they didn't include the portion with moving enemy units the minimum distance to get them off the blast template, I would agree with your logic.

Additionally, and as much as I hate to say it, the way they played it in the White Dwarf agrees with the argument I presented. I know they don't always get stuff right (reference Warriors of Chaos Eyes of the Gods rule), but in this case it makes sense.

Could you PLEASE PLEASE provide the quote? Man that's all I've been asking for. If it does specifically state that it follows a different Deep Strike process that is 100% fine. The logic that has been provided was that any model can start a Deep Strike move on top of another model which is totally wrong.

If you are indeed, placing a template first, rolling for scatter, then doing the subterranean assault moves, etc. THEN placing the Mawloc that of course would ignore everything I have said.

I think those arguing that the mawloc can initiate a DS in a unit are missing the meaning of the word "place".

According to Merriam-Webster online, to place is "to arrange something in a certain spot or position"; I don't know about you all but the average person does not have the fine motor control necessary to arrange something in a certain spot while still holding it (as your hand will move a bit).

Now let's discuss what "on the table" means because some of you are convinced that if the mawloc shares any place near the table that this verbage is satisfied. The same dictionary defines the preposition on to mean "in or into contact with".

Now, my point. If someone I'm playing were to be such an utter tool that they would try to exploit the vague nature of GW rules to such an obviously erroneous extent, I would be inclined to reciprocate by being a tool as well and demand that they satisfy that the model is "placed" meaning it will have to stand of its own accord in the place where the player wishes it to be AND it must be in contact with the table. If he/she can manage this miracle, they can proceed.

paidinfull wrote:I would contend that Deep Striking constitutes as a "move" in the movement phase, as per the wording "move any further", so a Deep Striking unit cannot be placed within 1" of an enemy. Placing the first model on the table on top of another model or base would also not be placing the model on the table.

There is a small problem with this. If deep striking is normal movement, then a mishap can never occur. Everything would behave like a drop pod.

Homer

Agnosto, by your definition of "Place", you can never place anything on the table unless you are using a completely flat, bare, unpainted table.

Gwar! wrote:Agnosto, by your definition of "Place", you can never place anything on the table unless you are using a completely flat, bare, unpainted table.

How so? The tables I play on have terrain added before the battle so they start flat; obviously if it's too steep for my models to stand on, in the game mechanics it would be too steep for them to climb thus the terrain rules for difficult/dangerous/impassable. If it can't stand on its own, it's obviously being affected by one of the different terrain types which means that of these, two of them preclude DS'ing.

I'm willing to even forego the obvious stupidity of this ability moving a vehicle.
"Gee your tiny Mawloc came up under my Titan and moved him an inch."

agnosto wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Agnosto, by your definition of "Place", you can never place anything on the table unless you are using a completely flat, bare, unpainted table.

How so?

Placing models onto a terrain piece not placing them on the table.

Placing them onto paint that is on a table is not the same as putting them on the table.

Gwar! wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Agnosto, by your definition of "Place", you can never place anything on the table unless you are using a completely flat, bare, unpainted table.

How so?

Placing models onto a terrain piece not placing them on the table.

Placing them onto paint that is on a table is not the same as putting them on the table.

Actually the tables I play on are covered in model grass (whatever that green sand is). What, do you stand there and hold your models the whole game because they can't stay on a hill? Seriously, you're just being obtuse.

Actually, he is using an argument to discredit itself.

InquisitorFabius wrote:Actually, he is using an argument to discredit itself.

That usually happens when people continue an argument just to be argumentative.

It comes down to how you define the "table"

Is it the supporting structure?
Is the it the supporting structure PLUS the actual playing surface (e.g. citadel gaming boards)
Is it the playing surface plus any appropriate terrain?

Homer S wrote:

paidinfull wrote:I would contend that Deep Striking constitutes as a "move" in the movement phase, as per the wording "move any further", so a Deep Striking unit cannot be placed within 1" of an enemy. Placing the first model on the table on top of another model or base would also not be placing the model on the table.

There is a small problem with this. If deep striking is normal movement, then a mishap can never occur. Everything would behave like a drop pod.

Homer

Deep Striking is Deep Striking, so it's not "normal" movement per say, but it's definitely movement as I pointed out, and I'm sure most would agree with me.
Though how that relates to the Mawloc rules is completely separate.

At this point I have been requesting over and over again a quote of the Mawloc rules.
Right now, my point is that players claiming that you can place a model on top of another model when you begin your Deep Strike move clearly violates RAW.
If there is a separate sequence... IE you place the blast marker separately and resolve those effects first, then move the remaining enemy models then place the Mawloc, it is more than clear my objections were unwarranted.
If, however, it follows the normal Deep Strike rules, you first place the Mawloc model on the table, then if it scatters onto enemy models roll follow Subterranean Assault, then you absolutely, 100%, can not place the Mawloc on top of enemy models by RAW.

@nosferatu
It actually does not come down to how you define table. If a Mawloc either follows a different sequence for Deep Strike, as I listed above, or if he is permitted to be placed on top of enemy models or in impassable terrain, then my argument is irrelevant.

Wow guys, arguing about weather terrain features on the board count as being on the board is rather ridiculous. The terrain features become part of the board, as does any paint/flock etc. No one is going to ague about this IRL (I have some hope left in humanity), so lets not waste time and detract from the thread.

The pertinent information is that you may not place a model in/on impassible terrain, which is what enemy models are. DS allows you to place a model anywhere on the board, but it does not state this is an exemption to Impassible terrain. Therefore impassible terrain is still off limits unless you have a special rule that exempts you from the limit on impassible terrain.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It comes down to how you define the "table"

Is it the supporting structure?
Is the it the supporting structure PLUS the actual playing surface (e.g. citadel gaming boards)
Is it the playing surface plus any appropriate terrain?

I just got off the phone with Jervis. Couldn't really understand much, but from what I gathered, on a 4+ we have to grab some holy promethium and scourge the tabletop.

What happens when a model Deepstrikes onto terrain?
Oh, wait. They have a whole . . . table for that.

And it describes what "normally" happens.

The paragraph before let you know this.

Try to stay on topic please
And provide something substantial... I dunno... like a quote that says the Mawloc can either be placed in impassable terrain, on enemy models or follows a different Deep Strike process than normal.

paidinfull wrote:Try to stay on topic please
And provide something substantial... I dunno... like a quote that says the Mawloc can either be placed in impassable terrain, on enemy models or follows a different Deep Strike process than normal.

Why would it need to follow a different deep strike process?

The normal one lets you go right onto the enemy anyway.

@Gwar
That is an unsubstantiated and incorrect statement.
The normal Deep Strike rules do not permit you to place on top of models or in impassable terrain.

I am not going to repeat myself as I have proven it with RAW at the bottom of page 2 and above on page 3.

Before you even suggest that it's covered under Mishap, you will notice you still do not place the models.
"If any of the models in a DS unit cannot be deployed because they would land off the table, in impassable terrain..."

You can't place a model on top of another model, because that model counts as impassable terrain, and a model may not be placed in impassable terrain unless it has a special rule that permits it. The Deep Strike rule itself does not permit a unit to be placed in impassable terrain.

It instead causes a mishap.

@kirsanth
What? Did you say something?

I'm waiting for the quote that says the Mawloc can either be placed in impassable terrain, on enemy models or follows a different Deep Strike process than normal.

Do you have it yet?

Yep.

@kirsanth
Excellent. I'm sure we're all excited to see what you have found. What is the quote?

incarna wrote:
is there anyone out there who really believes a Mawlock can not deep strike on top of your opponents units?

Only the people that keep quoting deep strike rules when in fact the mawlok does not deep strike.

Just a side note: If friendly/enemy models are considered "Impassable terrain", then why is it that they need to be mentioned in the deepstrike rule, instead of it just saying "Oh, hey, if one of the models land in impassable terrain, do this..."?


Maybe not the largest of points, but enemy models, by the deepstrike rules, are different than normal impassable terrain, even if they are potentially treated the same way.

The within 1" issue. You can be within an inch of impassable terrain.

@dronze
That is because in 3rd & 4th edition friendly models didn't effect DS.

To DS in those editions you would place the LBT roll for scatter and then place the anywhere models on or touching the template(LBT).

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@kirsanth
But not within 1" of an enemy model. If the impassable terrain and the enemy model are one and the same, then you cannot be within 1" of the impassable terrain... the enemy model.


@Everyone
Nobody can provide a quote for Subterranean Assault yet?

Here's the rule:
Terror From the Deep : if the Mawloc deep strikes into an enemy model, do not roll on the mishap table. Instead, place a Large Blast Marker at the point where the Mawloc is entering play. Each model under the template takes a S6 Ap2 hit. Vehicles are hit on rear armor. Surviving models are moved the minimum distance to the side of the template while retaining coherency. Units that were locked in combat must try to stay in B2B with enemy models, if not possible, place at least 1" apart. Any models that cannot be moved off the template are destroyed. Vehicles (even if immobillized) retain orientation when moved. After everything has been moved, replace the template with the Mawloc.

Notice the terms Deep Strike and no exceptions other than what happens in the case of a mishap. No mention that the Mawloc is immune to deep strike rules which means it CAN NOT deep strike into impassable terrain per RAW but if it scatters onto impassable terrain it gets its cheesy power.

This also means that the template affects friendly models as it says "model" and not "enemy".

The exception is not needed.

To Deepstrike into an enemy model is letting you know this is normal. It is not saying "if it scatters into".

Thread temp closed pending some investigation.

Dear @agnosto
Thank you.
I will tell a tale of your greatness and sing a song of how super you are.
The End

Man, this is all I wanted, which was to look at how this whole thing came about. Thank you.

If you are playing RAW clearly you are not able to place a model on top of another model to begin your Deep Strike move. This means that placing the Mawloc ON an enemy unit then rolling the scatter die is not RAW.
So this means it is not like a free blast marker where if you roll a hit you will get your S6 AP2 hits. Considering you have a higher chance of scattering, 66%, this makes much more sense.

Sorry, Reds8n, I've been looking at this thread too, and... let me know if you need help. It almost seems like some posters are being purposefully obtuse, and arguing just to argue.

Grrr.