Mark said he did it for health reasons... Hurrr! Like I really believe that one. Anyways there is a big sports debate raging should be voted into the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame (MLB HoF). I think he is a basically a good guy and I know he gave away a lot of money to charity but even so I don't think he deserves to be inducted. By going public with his problem he has set a bad example for the youth who want to pursue a career in professional sports. To be honest I always was of the opinion that both Mark and Sammy Sosa were on the juice, those huge shoulders and breaking wooden bats was a dead giveaway.
I am of the opinion that no juicer should be in the hall of fame. Especially if they were inducted for breaking records under the influence of steroids, like McGwire.
Are steroids still not mandatory for baseball players? Blurnsball can't come soon enough. Baseball is too boring for me to care about its players' drug abuse.
I voted yes. Atheletes are no longer role models and honestly I dont think they ever were even in the so called golden age of our pareants. I consider myself to be an athelete. My sports of choice are crossfit and Rugby. I use a lot of supplements to achieve gains I would normally not find possible. My job prohibits me from using steroids or honestly I probably would.
On the flip side I would like to see the x-rays on the amount of joint damage and a MRI to see the ligament damage he suffered. I personally can attest that the larger you get the heavier the isolation movements become the more damage you do to those areas. I can no longer do isolation work so I moved to Crossfit and do not suffer joint pain. I tried to do some curls (135-155 4 sets of 5 reps) and I was in agony the next day.
I hope he uses his experience to educate those who would other wise abuse the substance. A lot of literature is pointing that steriod use is not all bad. The abuse is what is damaging. Look at most pro body builders from the 70-80's, they are dying off in droves.
ounumen wrote:I voted yes. Atheletes are no longer role models and honestly I dont think they ever were even in the so called golden age of our pareants.
Charles Barkley was right.
ounumen wrote:
On the flip side I would like to see the x-rays on the amount of joint damage and a MRI to see the ligament damage he suffered.
Joint damage is a natural consequence of strength training; particularly those exercises which focus on support musculature.
I agree with you GG. to say a pro athlete is not a role model for today's you is like saying it's okay to run red lights as long as you don't get caught. It just doesn't work that way. The general consensus is McGwire will never be inducted.
Green Blow Fly wrote:I agree with you GG. to say a pro athlete is not a role model for today's you is like saying it's okay to run red lights as long as you don't get caught. It just doesn't work that way. The general consensus is McGwire will never be inducted.
Given the number of juicers who are already in the Hall or will be inducted in the coming years it seems a touch hypocritical to ban McGwire for it.
There is another famous shortstop who didn't make it coz he loved to gamble. Because you make one mistAke only a fool will repeat for the sake of the argument.
If one? Please tell me you're kidding. Unless you're going to disallow every single MLB player from the hall who's played the game since the 80's you're going to have dozens, if not hundreds of juicers in there. It's not like League didn't know, or couldn't stop it if they had wanted to, they liked it. Guys like McGwire got people interested in baseball even if only for a time. The league turned a blind eye to it and let it happen because they were raking in the money. It's not like you're dealing with a bunch of paragons of virtue and guys like McGwire and Rose are outliers. They're the norm. The only difference between them and many many other players and hall of famers is they got caught/confessed.
Your optimism is refreshing yet horribly misplaced. You honestly believe that right now, and for the last 10 to 20 years that most of the top players in baseball, the guys going to the hall of fame, were clean and stayed on the straight and narrow? Really? That Rose and McGwire are both rare cases in an other wise excellent group of fine upstanding young gentlemen? That with the immense pressure to perform and mind boggling amounts of money up for grabs by those that do perform almost no one cuts corners to get ahead?
I got to back up GBF here. The fact that some people "didn't get caught" doesn't mean we just ignore the ones who did.
It's just like when you are the one that gets the speeding ticket when 12 other cars around you were also speeding. If you ask the cop what about the other guys speeding, he will say yes I know, but I caught you.
Mark belongs in the hall of infamy and I don't even think he himself believes he deserves HOF candidacy. He was involved in one of (if not THE) biggest sports scandal in American history; and like generalgrog mentions he got caught. Its also always bad mojo when Congress has to get involved.
As for professional sports athletes not being role models - I call bs especially since families are generally a major customer for pro-sports. These guys are professionals and in their contract they basically have to act decently and serve the community in various services. If your local sports team's players are constantly making asshats of themselves that only hurts the team and league's image which means a lot in this image sensitive era. Pro-athletes are professionals and treated as such.
Cane wrote:These guys are professionals and in their contract they basically have to act decently and serve the community in various services. If your local sports team's players are constantly making asshats of themselves that only hurts the team and league's image which means a lot in this image sensitive era. Pro-athletes are professionals and treated as such.
They aren't just professionals though, but celebrity professionals, where the 'celebrity' diminishes as a result of 'dubious' (though I'd call it realistic) morality.
And let's be honest here, steroid use was rampant in professional sports before the crackdown. Baseball got the most attention because the huge statistical jumps, but football was just as bad, if not worse (*cough*Romanowski*cough*).
Its worth remembering that different steroids do different things, and you don't necessarily become utterly massive as a result of taking them. We should all recall that Lance Armstrong took steroids in order to develop respiratory system.
I hate that professional sportsmen are role models. I wish when asking the boys in my classes what they want to do when they're older, 90% of them didn't answer "footballer!"
Gah. Crap like that is why boys do so friggin poorly in school.
Da Boss wrote:I hate that professional sportsmen are role models. I wish when asking the boys in my classes what they want to do when they're older, 90% of them didn't answer "footballer!"
Gah. Crap like that is why boys do so friggin poorly in school.
Well to be honest, shouting out "mindless worker drone!" just doesn't have the same panache now does it?
They could say SOMETHING that requires academic work or is beneficial to society.
Policeman!
Doctor!
Fireman!
Scientist!
Builder!
and so on. Footballer? Really? That's who you look up to? That's like looking up to me for playing 40K.
dogma wrote:
Its worth remembering that different steroids do different things, and you don't necessarily become utterly massive as a result of taking them. We should all recall that Lance Armstrong took steroids in order to develop respiratory system.
Right, and when Floyd Landis got caught taking steroids during in-competition testing, they took away his Jersey, Banned him from competition for two years, and went through a lengthy legal process defending their findings.
I say take away his honorifics. No Lou Gherig Memorial, no Silver Slugger, No WS champ. Take it all back. Then you can try and decide if he's a valid entry.
I think this is silly, let him keep the records... no * or whatever, he's just never going to be in the hall of fame because he DID cheat, cuz when he did make those records we didn't know about HgH or the steroid era. This whole "I wish i never played in this era" equals lame.
"I only took them to feel normal" "The grind of a 162 game schedule." blah blah blah..... THATS Why you are a PROFESSIONAL! Yes if he never took the roid's he may or may not have broken the records he did, but I am begining to think the only ball player worth his salt NOT wrapped up in corked bats, roids, or whatever is Ken Griffie Jr.
Its like, I still would've won the tournament without the loaded dice, if you look at my army construction over time, it was getting better and better. I just wish i didn't play in the loaded dice era of 40K *sob* *sob* its SILLY.
I remember in the late 80's early 90's when the commentators where talking about "juiced" baseballs thinking that the baseball manufacturers had changed the way they made the balls, thus increasing their reaction to being hit by the bat. I mean they launched all kinds of investigations into baseball and bat manufacturers to try and find out why these balls were flying out of the parks so much more than before. For some reason it took 10 years or more to figure out it wasn't the balls or bats that were juiced, but the players.
skipmcne wrote:You Cheat in the Olympics you lose the medal; why are we even talking about allowing a double standard to exist in "professional" sports?
the Olympics have a much better standard for testing/cheating than our American Professional sports do. The big deal is, that if you never break any major league records you can still get into the Hall of Fame, the price of your apperiances or what have you goes WAY UP, Even McGuire can't get some of the cash that some HoF players can get, and he's not in the Hall of Fame, just letting him have his "records" is fine he doesn't get anything out of having records.. he gets stuff for being in the HoF.
Whats sad is, the OK players in the steroid era, wouldn't have been "okay" they could be the ones going into the hall of fame, or have gotten the big contracts, instead of all these juicer guys, some of them STILL playing (A-Rod).
skipmcne wrote:
Right, and when Floyd Landis got caught taking steroids during in-competition testing, they took away his Jersey, Banned him from competition for two years, and went through a lengthy legal process defending their findings.
I say take away his honorifics. No Lou Gherig Memorial, no Silver Slugger, No WS champ. Take it all back. Then you can try and decide if he's a valid entry.
So should we just empty out the Hall, and start investigating everyone? That's what you're asking for here. Anything else is just willful ignorance.
Incidentally, why are we even so upset by steroids. Sure, they're illegal, but why? It isn't as though modern training techniques are somehow more 'natural'. People don't spend 6 hours a day exercising intently in the natural world; a process which has consequences that are every bit as severe as moderated steroid use.
skipmcne wrote:
Right, and when Floyd Landis got caught taking steroids during in-competition testing, they took away his Jersey, Banned him from competition for two years, and went through a lengthy legal process defending their findings.
I say take away his honorifics. No Lou Gherig Memorial, no Silver Slugger, No WS champ. Take it all back. Then you can try and decide if he's a valid entry.
So should we just empty out the Hall, and start investigating everyone? That's what you're asking for here. Anything else is just willful ignorance.
Incidentally, why are we even so upset by steroids. Sure, they're illegal, but why? It isn't as though modern training techniques are somehow more 'natural'. People don't spend 6 hours a day exercising intently in the natural world; a process which has consequences that are every bit as severe as moderated steroid use.
Well thats just it, steroids are not natural, they are illegal to have without a doctors care or what not. Modern training, uses natural science and physical tech to train for specific things etc etc, but you are only limited by your bodys NATURAL limits, 'roids alter those natural limits.
Incidentally, why are we even so upset by steroids. Sure, they're illegal, but why? It isn't as though modern training techniques are somehow more 'natural'. People don't spend 6 hours a day exercising intently in the natural world; a process which has consequences that are every bit as severe as moderated steroid use.
Because its against the league's rules and they're cheaters. Not really a matter of whats more 'natural' rather about whats 'right' to the league.
hcordes wrote:
"I only took them to feel normal" "The grind of a 162 game schedule." blah blah blah..... THATS Why you are a PROFESSIONAL!
Yes, and professionals make sacrifices in order to further their careers. They do things like train for ridiculous intervals, and take chemical supplements, some of them are banned, others are not.
hcordes wrote:
Yes if he never took the roid's he may or may not have broken the records he did, but I am begining to think the only ball player worth his salt NOT wrapped up in corked bats, roids, or whatever is Ken Griffie Jr.
Its like, I still would've won the tournament without the loaded dice, if you look at my army construction over time, it was getting better and better. I just wish i didn't play in the loaded dice era of 40K *sob* *sob* its SILLY.
That's not really a valid analogy. I realize you're comparing cheating, to cheating, but the manipulation of probability is not at all the same thing as adding additional muscle mass. One involves the manipulation of an otherwise impartial element, while the other simply alters one of skill conditions implicit in the playing of a game.
@Cane, its true, you are right, it's just plain against the league RULES. never mind the legalities of it, if you break the RULES then you are a CHEATER.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dogma wrote:
hcordes wrote:
"I only took them to feel normal" "The grind of a 162 game schedule." blah blah blah..... THATS Why you are a PROFESSIONAL!
Yes, and professionals make sacrifices in order to further their careers. They do things like train for ridiculous intervals, and take chemical supplements, some of them are banned, others are not.
hcordes wrote:
Yes if he never took the roid's he may or may not have broken the records he did, but I am begining to think the only ball player worth his salt NOT wrapped up in corked bats, roids, or whatever is Ken Griffie Jr.
Its like, I still would've won the tournament without the loaded dice, if you look at my army construction over time, it was getting better and better. I just wish i didn't play in the loaded dice era of 40K *sob* *sob* its SILLY.
That's not really a valid analogy. I realize you're comparing cheating, to cheating, but the manipulation of probability is not at all the same thing as adding additional muscle mass. One involves the manipulation of an otherwise impartial element, while the other simply alters one of skill conditions implicit in the playing of a game.
Yes it is, if i add loaded dice to my regular dice, the greater the chance I roll a six. If i take 'roids to improve my training, and my ability to stay in the game over the course of a season, the more chances I get to hit a baseball.... therefore the more chances I get to hit a homerun. If he never took steriods, he'd have sat out on a lot more games and not hit as many balls. Cheating is Cheating is Cheating, i would still get banned for the game store, and he should get banned from the hall of fame, end of story.
Automatically Appended Next Post: if you google his numbers from before and after he says he took steriods, you will see a HUGE difference in them... i can not take that as a happy accident. Whether or not that was his intention thats what happend.
hcordes wrote:
Well thats just it, steroids are not natural, they are illegal to have without a doctors care or what not. Modern training, uses natural science and physical tech to train for specific things etc etc, but you are only limited by your bodys NATURAL limits, 'roids alter those natural limits.
Steroids are perfectly natural. They are the result of natural processes developed by human beings in the same way that modern training techniques are. Steroids are chemical, and in many ways I think that's why people feel morally dubious about their use, but they certainly don't alter the fundamental make-up of the body. You can produce an effect similar to that caused by anabolic steroids by ingesting large amounts of cholesterol in the course of a training program (the male steroids being derived from cholesterol).
Cane wrote:
Because its against the league's rules and they're cheaters. Not really a matter of whats more 'natural' rather about whats 'right' to the league.
Its illegal now. It wasn't illegal when he used steroids. Banned substance lists are item, by item in professional sports. There was no such thing as a comprehensive steroid ban until 2002. In fact, McGwire admitted to using a precursor in 1998 when he set the HR record.
hcordes wrote:
Well thats just it, steroids are not natural, they are illegal to have without a doctors care or what not. Modern training, uses natural science and physical tech to train for specific things etc etc, but you are only limited by your bodys NATURAL limits, 'roids alter those natural limits.
Steroids are perfectly natural. They are the result of natural processes developed by human beings in the same way that modern training techniques are. Steroids are chemical, and in many ways I think that's why people feel morally dubious about their use, but they certainly don't alter the fundamental make-up of the body. You can produce an effect similar to that caused by anabolic steroids by ingesting large amounts of cholesterol in the course of a training program (the male steroids being derived from cholesterol).
hcordes wrote:
Yes it is, if i add loaded dice to my regular dice, the greater the chance I roll a six. If i take 'roids to improve my training, and my ability to stay in the game over the course of a season, the more chances I get to hit a baseball.... therefore the more chances I get to hit a homerun. If he never took steriods, he'd have sat out on a lot more games and not hit as many balls.
Those still aren't the same thing. Increasing the number of chances you have to swing a bat is not the same as altering the probability of rolling a six. A similar analogy would be rolling more dice, but that's only true if you accept that you can compare athletic ability to probability in the context of experience, which simply isn't the case. There's a difference between 'happening', and 'action'.
hcordes wrote:
Cheating is Cheating is Cheating, i would still get banned for the game store, and he should get banned from the hall of fame, end of story.
But he didn't cheat, that's the whole point. He never used a banned substance. He used performance enhancing drugs during his record season, but they weren't illegal at the time.
And cheating is not cheating. If that were the case there would be a universal punishment system to govern all forms of cheating. That doesn't exist, so different forms of cheating are different from a consequential perspective.
hcordes wrote:
if you google his numbers from before and after he says he took steriods, you will see a HUGE difference in them... i can not take that as a happy accident. Whether or not that was his intention thats what happend.
Of course its no accident. The steroids improved his ability to play. I'm not arguing that point.
I'd be pretty cool with emptying out the hall. We need to stop idolising these people.
"I'm a paramedic!"
"I can hit a ball with a wooden bat REALLY HARD!"
Cane wrote:
Because its against the league's rules and they're cheaters. Not really a matter of whats more 'natural' rather about whats 'right' to the league.
Its illegal now. It wasn't illegal when he used steroids. Banned substance lists are item, by item in professional sports. There was no such thing as a comprehensive steroid ban until 2002. In fact, McGwire admitted to using a precursor in 1998 when he set the HR record.
Personally, I feel that He should only be punished for using substances that were on his sport's banned substance list during the period he was playing. If a drug is not on the banned substance list, then it's legal to play the game with it in your training program. And if you derive a benefit from that drug, it's acceptable, and (evidently has been deemed so by the League).
There's no point in punishing him if the rules changed post-fact.
If he was competing while using banned substances, I'm in favor of not allowing him to reap the rewards.
hcordes wrote:
heres a link, do some reading, then get back to me.
Dude, athletic training is what I do for a living. Granted, that's just an appeal to expertise, but I didn't make any claim about side-effects. All training has serious side-effects.
Simply stating that steroids are bad for you doesn't mean they alter your fundamental body chemistry any more than physical training, least of all when they aren't abused.
Da Boss wrote:I'd be pretty cool with emptying out the hall. We need to stop idolising these people.
"I'm a paramedic!"
"I can hit a ball with a wooden bat REALLY HARD!"
Works for me. Stop at 1941. In fact, stop baseball, it really clutters up the TV and gets in the way of real sports, like rhythmic water dancing.
Of course its no accident. The steroids improved his ability to play. I'm not arguing that point.
and steroids in all forms are not permitted in professional baseball. end of story. my opinion or yours on steroids dosent really matter when it comes to pro baseball R-U-L-E-S
Da Boss wrote:I'd be pretty cool with emptying out the hall. We need to stop idolising these people.
"I'm a paramedic!"
"I can hit a ball with a wooden bat REALLY HARD!"
Works for me. Stop at 1941. In fact, stop baseball, it really clutters up the TV and gets in the way of real sports, like rhythmic water dancing.
hcordes wrote:
and steroids in all forms are not permitted in professional baseball. end of story. my opinion or yours on steroids dosent really matter when it comes to pro baseball R-U-L-E-S
Read up on the history of steroid regulation in professional baseball. Its nowhere near that cut and dry. All useful steroids are currently banned, but that has only been true since 2002.
Again, it isn't as simple as writing a sentence which says 'no steroids'. If the specific drug is not on a banned substance list, then it is not illegal.
Da Boss wrote:I'd be pretty cool with emptying out the hall. We need to stop idolising these people.
"I'm a paramedic!"
"I can hit a ball with a wooden bat REALLY HARD!"
Works for me. Stop at 1941. In fact, stop baseball, it really clutters up the TV and gets in the way of real sports, like rhythmic water dancing.
@Dogma, as a personal trainer, you have i am sure been around all sorts of steroids, "special" shakes, protein this and that, and been privy to all the "latest tech" in body building and what not. Now, even before the great baseball steroid era, we all knew or familiar with the term "'Roid Rage"?? and it was a proven fact that 'roids over time effect the male genitals i.e. it stops working. so that being said... if you want to have big muscles and a small "package" that will be your choice, and if you manage to do it legally, more power to you. Lots of steroids are illegal not just in sports. so like i said if you can legally do it, i would fight for your right to do so.. doesn't mean i have to like it.
Just a hypothetical.... would you give one of your clients steroids, if they asked for them, or would you recommend them, to a client who wants to get bigger, faster, stronger as FAST as possible?
The other issue is it skews the results in a big way. Whether they were illegl or not is irrelevant in this instance. His performance can't be measured by players in the 30s/40s/50s/60s because they did not have those drugs/hormones/Top Ramen noodle packages.
hcordes wrote:
Just a hypothetical.... would you give one of your clients steroids, if they asked for them, or would you recommend them, to a client who wants to get bigger, faster, stronger as FAST as possible?
I'd discuss it with them, and if I thought they knew what they were getting into I would refer them to a doctor who would have his own screening process. As a rule I don't deal directly in regulated substances, but I'd prefer that people at least make educated decisions about their health. Honestly, if getting big is all someone wants to do, there are cheaper methods that have effects similar to those of steroids; though those methods generally take longer, and produce slightly different results (less lean muscle mass).
Name a sport without steroid use at its highest levels and I'll call you a liar. Chose whether or not steroids precludes people from the hall of fame already, and just stick by the decision. It's something that should have been decided the last few times it came up.
Frazzled wrote:Isn't that er, aiding and abetting the use or illegal substances or such?
Nope. Doctors can prescribe steroids (almost) as they wish. I'm not liable for dispensing information pertaining to the distribution of a controlled substance through legal channels. Its essentially the same principle as that which guides a psychologist, or other non-medicating therapist, to refer patients to people who can medicate them.
Frazzled wrote:Isn't that er, aiding and abetting the use or illegal substances or such?
Nope. Doctors can prescribe steroids (almost) as they wish. I'm not liable for dispensing information pertaining to the distribution of a controlled substance through legal channels. Its essentially the same principle as that which guides a psychologist, or other non-medicating therapist, to refer patients to people who can medicate them.
But you're doing so for an illegal activity. As you've admitted, these types of substances are now illegal in most sports no?
Doctors themselves cannot prescrivbe drugs unless they are for a benefit. I'd bet good money prescribing steroids to bulk up is illegal or minimall unethical to the level of yanking their license.
But what do I know or care what they do. Want to roid up find by me. Just don't get uppity and try that roid rage nonsense.
Upper body intensive, no real non olympic regulatory system. Probably has steroid users.
Golf
Tiger woods took steroids.
Competitive Eating
Anabolic steroids.
Target and skeet Shooting
You've got me there! Though more for target than skeet, upper body strength helps quite a bit there (though not really enough for steroids to be semi mandatory).
Bowling
You kidding? I would be surprised if every professional bowler wasn't on steroids. The biceps on those guys are bigger than my car and the woman all have jawlines you could cut diamonds with.
Frazzled wrote:The other issue is it skews the results in a big way. Whether they were illegl or not is irrelevant in this instance. His performance can't be measured by players in the 30s/40s/50s/60s because they did not have those drugs/hormones/Top Ramen noodle packages.
That's the real issue that baseball people care about. They could really care less about the morality of the inductees. Possible murder aside, Ty Cobb once stabbed a security guard. He also once jumped into the stands to assault a handicapped man who had yelled insults at him. But hey, he has the numbers and did it clean!
All this stuff about role models has absolutely NOTHING to do with the HOF. It's a completely unrelated issue.
hcordes wrote:wasn't the point of this if McGuire should or shouldn't be in the hall of fame??? I still say no, regaurdless of steroids in our society as a whole.
I say yes, if he's not going to commit seppuku then he should be in the Hall. They could even do an exhibit entitled "the history of roids." Start with babe Ruth and go to him along a timeline, noting new drugs and therapies along the way. At the end of it have a gorilla in a uniform with a big question mark above it.
All this stuff about role models has absolutely NOTHING to do with the HOF. It's a completely unrelated issue.
Professional athletes are and have always been terrible role models. They are typically unskilled, relatively unintelligent, and while definitely hard working their careers and lives amount to what is in essence throwing a ball or hitting someone. Even without the issue of steroids athletes have never been bastions of self control or decency, the great bambino was an alcohol rattled half dead wreck of a man and Michael jordan was known for being cocky and aggressive.
hcordes wrote:wasn't the point of this if McGuire should or shouldn't be in the hall of fame??? I still say no, regaurdless of steroids in our society as a whole.
I say yes, if he's not going to commit seppuku then he should be in the Hall. They could even do an exhibit entitled "the history of roids." Start with babe Ruth and go to him along a timeline, noting new drugs and therapies along the way. At the end of it have a gorilla in a uniform with a big question mark above it.
Frazz; you and I don't agree on much; but I like your thinking here.
Frazzled wrote:
But you're doing so for an illegal activity. As you've admitted, these types of substances are now illegal in most sports no?
Since I'm neither a professional, nor a collegiate athlete I can't incur any consequences for how my clients might use a substance a doctor I sent them to might provide. The rules of a game, or officiating body, are not the same as the law. Even the Congressional investigation had little to do with criminal allegations.
Frazzled wrote:
Doctors themselves cannot prescrivbe drugs unless they are for a benefit. I'd bet good money prescribing steroids to bulk up is illegal or minimall unethical to the level of yanking their license.
I'd probably consider it unethical under the classical Hippocratic oath, and were I a doctor I would not accept the liability under any circumstance. However, that's the doctor's decision. For all intents and purposes a client is asking me about steroids, and I'm sending him to a person qualified to dispense information. Whether or not the doctor writes a script is out of my hands.
I'd probably consider it unethical under the classical Hippocratic oath, and were I a doctor I would not accept the liability under any circumstance. However, that's the doctor's decision. For all intents and purposes a client is asking me about steroids, and I'm sending him to a person qualified to dispense information. Whether or not the doctor writes a script is out of my hands.
this just seems like the wrong attitude. to me..... its like I'm gonna tell you that meth will make you wide awake for days at a time so you can get all your homework done and cram for tests, but if you go out and find a dealer thats your fault??? its a little bit on the "pass the buck" side of things,
"It wasn't my fault i was speeding officer, its the guy behind me. He was traveling too fast so i had to drive faster to keep him from rear-ending me."
"im not telling them to take steroids, or supplying them, but go see a doctor he can give them to you... as long as its your choice"
still think its silly
still think McGuire is silly
still think steroids are silly
begining to think this thread is silly
I'd probably consider it unethical under the classical Hippocratic oath, and were I a doctor I would not accept the liability under any circumstance. However, that's the doctor's decision. For all intents and purposes a client is asking me about steroids, and I'm sending him to a person qualified to dispense information. Whether or not the doctor writes a script is out of my hands.
this just seems like the wrong attitude. to me..... its like I'm gonna tell you that meth will make you wide awake for days at a time so you can get all your homework done and cram for tests, but if you go out and find a dealer thats your fault??? its a little bit on the "pass the buck" side of things,
"It wasn't my fault i was speeding officer, its the guy behind me. He was traveling too fast so i had to drive faster to keep him from rear-ending me."
"im not telling them to take steroids, or supplying them, but go see a doctor he can give them to you... as long as its your choice"
still think its silly
still think McGuire is silly
still think steroids are silly
begining to think this thread is silly
Yea but how does Merle fit into all this? You still haven't answered that fundamental question.
Cane wrote:
Because its against the league's rules and they're cheaters. Not really a matter of whats more 'natural' rather about whats 'right' to the league.
Its illegal now. It wasn't illegal when he used steroids. Banned substance lists are item, by item in professional sports. There was no such thing as a comprehensive steroid ban until 2002. In fact, McGwire admitted to using a precursor in 1998 when he set the HR record.
Ah I see, I am admittedly a MLB newbie. However admitting to using steroids after all the controversy and stigma thats been associated with it doesn't seem good. HOF is all about getting the votes and by admitting to steroid use in one of the most controversial eras of baseball pretty much axes any chance he had.
ShumaGorath wrote:
Professional athletes are and have always been terrible role models.
The media definitely likes to focus on the negatives but unfortunately the good guys in pro-sports hardly get any attention by comparison. That said I'd say the average NBA player has contributed more hours (and definitely more $$$) to their community than everyone in this thread. The HOF Ceremony that inducted Jordan also included one of the most stellar role models sports history has seen: David Robinson. NBA MVP and two-time champion, Naval Academy grad, mathematics major, 1320 SAT, recruited for the Navy, and founded a non-profit school called the Carver Academy in addition to contributing other services to help build the Alamo city. What separates guys like David Robinson from Michael Jordan is that Robinson used basketball as a tool and had a life outside of it whereas for Jordan his life became consumed by the media and the game.
Another great guy is Dikembe Mutombo who is renowned for not only his finger-wag but his humanitarian work to help improve his home, the Democratic Republic of Congo and even got a mention in Bush's state of the union address. Another good example is millionaire Tim James, former NBA player who joined the military and served in Iraq because he wanted to. And then there's the late Pat Tillman RIP.
Class acts are still around but the asshats are what the media thinks we like to hear about. Hard to blame 'em since we do seem to like it
The majority of the sportscasters reporting on this have publicly stated that what McGwire has stated as to his reasons for taking steroids is dubious & that they feel he doesn't deserve to be inducted.
hcordes wrote:
this just seems like the wrong attitude. to me..... its like I'm gonna tell you that meth will make you wide awake for days at a time so you can get all your homework done and cram for tests, but if you go out and find a dealer thats your fault??? its a little bit on the "pass the buck" side of things,
Why should I make decisions for other people? I have no desire to take steroids, but my values and priorities are not necessarily the same as those of others. Should I deny them information because they draw conclusions from it which I don't agree with?
hcordes wrote:
"It wasn't my fault i was speeding officer, its the guy behind me. He was traveling too fast so i had to drive faster to keep him from rear-ending me."
"im not telling them to take steroids, or supplying them, but go see a doctor he can give them to you... as long as its your choice"
He can give them to him. That's not a secret. Doctors can write prescriptions for steroids in cases where they feel it is appropriate. Its not my place to determine who should, and should not be taking them as I am not qualified to make that decision. I simply provide information that anyone so inclined can dig up in a few hours of internet research.
When people ask me about steroids I generally tell them that they affect the human body in several different ways, and then give them a basic overview of those effects alongside an explanation of how common drugs work. After that I offer the disclaimer that I'm not a doctor, and that they should seek the advice of one in the event that they're still interested. After that I'll give them the names of a couple sports physicians who deal with performance enhancers (supplements as well steroids) so that they can speak to the proper authorities. I receive no financial compensation for this service outside of a loyal client base who appreciate my forthright honesty.
dogma wrote:When people ask me about steroids I generally tell them that they affect the human body in several different ways, and then give them a basic overview of those effects alongside an explanation of how common drugs work. After that I offer the disclaimer that I'm not a doctor, and that they should seek the advice of one in the event that they're still interested. After that I'll give them the names of a couple sports physicians who deal with performance enhancers (supplements as well steroids) so that they can speak to the proper authorities. I receive no financial compensation for this service outside of a loyal client base who appreciate my forthright honesty.
There is nothing wrong with this, no one can tell you that you can't share completely accessible knowledge. All in all it really seems like the best way to deal with that situation, it is not your place to make decisions for other people, as you said. Connecting them with professionals, that can help them further their knowledge of a subject, is also completely appropriate.
I should mention that, when training minors, I generally deflect the question. This is mostly because, in the case of minors, my client is technically the parent and not the child. The exception being emancipated children, but I've only ever trained one of those.
dogma wrote:When people ask me about steroids I generally tell them that they affect the human body in several different ways, and then give them a basic overview of those effects alongside an explanation of how common drugs work. After that I offer the disclaimer that I'm not a doctor, and that they should seek the advice of one in the event that they're still interested. After that I'll give them the names of a couple sports physicians who deal with performance enhancers (supplements as well steroids) so that they can speak to the proper authorities. I receive no financial compensation for this service outside of a loyal client base who appreciate my forthright honesty.
There is nothing wrong with this, no one can tell you that you can't share completely accessible knowledge. All in all it really seems like the best way to deal with that situation, it is not your place to make decisions for other people, as you said. Connecting them with professionals, that can help them further their knowledge of a subject, is also completely appropriate.
Ya know I could probably be disbarred if I did similar on the legal side. Just saying.
Frazzled wrote:
Ya know I could probably be disbarred if I did similar on the legal side. Just saying.
There's no public body which certifies personal trainers, so ultimately I'm just a dude with a private certification providing information about training, and related products. As I said, doctors can have their license to practice revoked for questionable prescriptions. I also believe that they could be sued for malpractice in the event of death, or serious medical consequences.
As far as I'm aware in order to aid and abet I would have to (at a minimum) willingly induce the commission of a crime, but that's not what's ever occurred. In sending someone with questions to a doctor I don't see how I'm aiding the illegal provision of steroids when the process in question is entirely legal under the Controlled Substances Act, should it actually occur.
I think its all a "slippery Slope" i just wouldn't want to tell anyone anything that could cost me my job or get me in legal trouble. I can tell some minors an end around to buying liquor as long as they have someone thats 21... but then i'd be helping them get liquor and could (long shot though it may be) face criminal charges.
generalgrog wrote:What about cricket and Synchronized swimming?
GG
Silly man, cricket isn't a sport, cricket is life.
But there are steroids scandals, recovering from shoulder surgery and fighting to be fit for the world cup the great bowler Shane Warne tested positive for a masking agent. He blamed on his mum giving him a diet pill, but the smart money says he was taking something to aid his recovery.
More recently a pair of Pakistani bowlers were found taking performance enhancing drugs. They were punished heavily by the their cricketing board, but the players took it to the Pakistani courts and while it got way too confusing for me to remember after about a year both were free to play again. The younger player is playing in a test against Australia as we speak.
As far as I know there aren't many drugs which help you perform the perfect in-swinger, probably why there are less drug scandals.
But it reflects well on cricket when the worlds second most popular sport really only has one major drugs scandal, besides the odd case of wacky bacci during a west indies tour, but who can blame them for that.
