James Cameron's completely immersive spectacle "Avatar" may have been a little too real for some fans who say they have experienced depression and suicidal thoughts after seeing the film because they long to enjoy the beauty of the alien world Pandora.
On the fan forum site "Avatar Forums," a topic thread entitled "Ways to cope with the depression of the dream of Pandora being intangible," has received more than 1,000 posts from people experiencing depression and fans trying to help them cope. The topic became so popular last month that forum administrator Philippe Baghdassarian had to create a second thread so people could continue to post their confused feelings about the movie.
"I wasn't depressed myself. In fact the movie made me happy ," Baghdassarian said. "But I can understand why it made people depressed. The movie was so beautiful and it showed something we don't have here on Earth. I think people saw we could be living in a completely different world and that caused them to be depressed."
A post by a user called Elequin expresses an almost obsessive relationship with the film.
"That's all I have been doing as of late, searching the Internet for more info about 'Avatar.' I guess that helps. It's so hard I can't force myself to think that it's just a movie, and to get over it, that living like the Na'vi will never happen. I think I need a rebound movie," Elequin posted.
A user named Mike wrote on the fan Web site "Naviblue" that he contemplated suicide after seeing the movie.
"Ever since I went to see 'Avatar' I have been depressed. Watching the wonderful world of Pandora and all the Na'vi made me want to be one of them. I can't stop thinking about all the things that happened in the film and all of the tears and shivers I got from it," Mike posted. "I even contemplate suicide thinking that if I do it I will be rebirthed in a world similar to Pandora and the everything is the same as in 'Avatar.' "
Other fans have expressed feelings of disgust with the human race and disengagement with reality.
Cameron's movie, which has pulled in more than $1.4 billion in worldwide box office sales and could be on track to be the highest grossing film of all time, is set in the future when the Earth's resources have been pillaged by the human race. A greedy corporation is trying to mine the rare mineral unobtainium from the planet Pandora, which is inhabited by a peace-loving race of 7-foot tall, blue-skinned natives called the Na'vi.
In their race to mine for Pandora's resources, the humans clash with the Na'vi, leading to casualties on both sides. The world of Pandora is reminiscent of a prehistoric fantasyland, filled with dinosaur-like creatures mixed with the kinds of fauna you may find in the deep reaches of the ocean. Compared with life on Earth, Pandora is a beautiful, glowing utopia.
Ivar Hill posts to the "Avatar" forum page under the name Eltu. He wrote about his post-"Avatar" depression after he first saw the film earlier this month.
"When I woke up this morning after watching Avatar for the first time yesterday, the world seemed ... gray. It was like my whole life, everything I've done and worked for, lost its meaning," Hill wrote on the forum. "It just seems so ... meaningless. I still don't really see any reason to keep ... doing things at all. I live in a dying world."
Reached via e-mail in Sweden where he is studying game design, Hill, 17, explained that his feelings of despair made him desperately want to escape reality.
"One can say my depression was twofold: I was depressed because I really wanted to live in Pandora, which seemed like such a perfect place, but I was also depressed and disgusted with the sight of our world, what we have done to Earth. I so much wanted to escape reality," Hill said.
Cameron's special effects masterpiece is very lifelike, and the 3-D performance capture and CGI effects essentially allow the viewer to enter the alien world of Pandora for the movie's 2½-hour running time, which only lends to the separation anxiety some individuals experience when they depart the movie theater.
"Virtual life is not real life and it never will be, but this is the pinnacle of what we can build in a virtual presentation so far," said Dr. Stephan Quentzel, psychiatrist and Medical Director for the Louis Armstrong Center for Music and Medicine at Beth Israel Medical Center in New York. "It has taken the best of our technology to create this virtual world and real life will never be as utopian as it seems onscreen. It makes real life seem more imperfect."
Fans of the movie may find actor Stephen Lang, who plays the villainous Col. Miles Quaritch in the film, an enemy of the Na'vi people and their sacred ground, an unlikely sympathizer. But Lang says he can understand the connection people are feeling with the movie.
"Pandora is a pristine world and there is the synergy between all of the creatures of the planet and I think that strikes a deep chord within people that has a wishfulness and a wistfulness to it," Lang said. "James Cameron had the technical resources to go along with this incredibly fertile imagination of his and his dream is built out of the same things that other peoples' dreams are made of."
The bright side is that for Hill and others like him -- who became dissatisfied with their own lives and with our imperfect world after enjoying the fictional creation of James Cameron -- becoming a part of a community of like-minded people on an online forum has helped them emerge from the darkness.
"After discussing on the forums for a while now, my depression is beginning to fade away. Having taken a part in many discussions concerning all this has really, really helped me," Hill said. "Before, I had lost the reason to keep on living -- but now it feels like these feelings are gradually being replaced with others."
Quentzel said creating relationships with others is one of the keys to human happiness, and that even if those connections are occurring online they are better than nothing.
"Obviously there is community building in these forums," Quentzel said. "It may be technologically different from other community building, but it serves the same purpose."
Within the fan community, suggestions for battling feelings of depression after seeing the movie include things like playing "Avatar" video games or downloading the movie soundtrack, in addition to encouraging members to relate to other people outside the virtual realm and to seek out positive and constructive activities.
Oh, and the Na'vi were not "peace loving" (the use of the phrase 'war party' in a matter of fact way, and the fact that it took the toruk mak'to to unite the tribes are also pointers to them not being entirely like blue-skinned hippies.).
Yes, they held a reverence for life and of their places in the cycle - but so do most native cultures.
"This is the first community on the internet for Na'vi 'Kin - those who are Na'vi in human form. Be it reincarnated Na'vi, Na'vi on a mental level, or spiritual Na'vi, we have one thing in common - we are Na'vi, truly, in our hearts and at our cores.
The aim of We Are Na'vi is to provide a safe environment for Na'vi 'Kin to gather and talk. I am the first, but undoubtedly not the last. When more Awaken to their true selves and have the Realization they will doubtless seek out a place to call home and be themselves. We Are Na'vi is that place."
My favourite bit is when the guy who identifies himself as a wolk/mantaray otherkin comes in to them they're being silly. Seriously, when the otherkin think you're being silly its time for a serious rethink about your spirituality.
Lol yeah I read about this at work. Some people need a serious reality check. About on the same level of insanity as those Edward Cullen-worshipping nutcases who think that Stephanie Meyer is a prophet and that the "Twilight" saga are holy books.
random internet personality wrote:I'm sad to see a bipedalwolfmantaray (read: a seriously deranged individual) telling others not to pretend they're something they're not.
Intriguing, please continue... .
Corvus wrote:Lol yeah I read about this at work. Some people need a serious reality check. About on the same level of insanity as those Edward Cullen-worshipping nutcases who think that Stephanie Meyer is a prophet and that the "Twilight" saga are holy books.
There is a never-ending list of strange, cultish communities. Furries are simply the tip of that twisted iceberg....
I could at first understand this. There is a deep sadness at the finale of J.R.R.Tolkien's masterpiece Lord of the Rings. The elves are departing the world leaving it a duller mundane place.
Now avatar ties into the epic in a similar way, its big its vibrant its appealing. Its also a deathworld.
At least you can breath on Catachan.
Because of grimdark and overused cliches 40K doesnt have the heartrend appeal and I doubt Ultramarine the Movie will fix that. but I digress still anyone who actually sees the film should not see Pandora as a nice place to go.
Still people are homesick for this poster paint paradise. Ok, fine, go and live in the jungle then.
Ok..
..
..
But
..
The jungle is wet, hot and full of spiders and mud crawling in bugs and mosquitos. They would complain.
Sure, but at least mosquitos are not 30 foot long, so whats the problem I reply.
Avatar is not just escapism its unnecessary escapism, we have the paradise right here and you can buy your way in with an adventure tourist holiday to Hawaii or Thailand. There are 'safe' guerilla free tourist jungles to roam in that you don't need 6 months hypersleep to get to. Reality FTW.
Orlanth wrote:The jungle is wet, hot and full of spiders and mud crawling in bugs and mosquitos. They would complain.
Sure, but at least mosquitos are not 30 foot long, so whats the problem I reply.
Avatar is not just escapism its unnecessary escapism, we have the paradise right here and you can buy your way in with an adventure tourist holiday to Hawaii or Thailand. There are 'safe' guerilla free tourist jungles to roam in that you don't need 6 months hypersleep to get to. Reality FTW.
I was thinking the same thing. The Earth is still a beautiful place.
fire4effekt wrote:What a bunch of fags!
Now hand me my chainsword, i must slay heretics!
cwatteyedidtheyre?
I think what you did there was try and equate just having a hobby to claiming clinical being depression because you don't live in a fictional world from a movie that just came out.
I thought the character was decent, but he actually looks greasy... No Greaseball needs to be actually covered in grease to be seen as such. Maybe they do, I dunno.
"Ever since I went to see 'Avatar' I have been depressed. Watching the wonderful world of Pandora and all the Na'vi made me want to be one of them. I can't stop thinking about all the things that happened in the film and all of the tears and shivers I got from it," Mike posted. "I even contemplate suicide thinking that if I do it I will be rebirthed in a world similar to Pandora and the everything is the same as in 'Avatar.' "
[img]There is no reaction image I can link to that would describe how I feel about this quote.[/img]
"Ever since I went to see 'Avatar' I have been depressed. Watching the wonderful world of Pandora and all the Na'vi made me want to be one of them. I can't stop thinking about all the things that happened in the film and all of the tears and shivers I got from it," Mike posted. "I even contemplate suicide thinking that if I do it I will be rebirthed in a world similar to Pandora and the everything is the same as in 'Avatar.' "
[img]There is no reaction image I can link to that would describe how I feel about this quote.[/img]
James Cameron's completely immersive spectacle "Avatar" may have been a little too real for some fans who say they have experienced depression and suicidal thoughts after seeing the film because they long to enjoy the beauty of the alien world Pandora.
On the fan forum site "Avatar Forums," a topic thread entitled "Ways to cope with the depression of the dream of Pandora being intangible," has received more than 1,000 posts from people experiencing depression and fans trying to help them cope. The topic became so popular last month that forum administrator Philippe Baghdassarian had to create a second thread so people could continue to post their confused feelings about the movie.
"I wasn't depressed myself. In fact the movie made me happy ," Baghdassarian said. "But I can understand why it made people depressed. The movie was so beautiful and it showed something we don't have here on Earth. I think people saw we could be living in a completely different world and that caused them to be depressed."
A post by a user called Elequin expresses an almost obsessive relationship with the film.
"That's all I have been doing as of late, searching the Internet for more info about 'Avatar.' I guess that helps. It's so hard I can't force myself to think that it's just a movie, and to get over it, that living like the Na'vi will never happen. I think I need a rebound movie," Elequin posted.
A user named Mike wrote on the fan Web site "Naviblue" that he contemplated suicide after seeing the movie.
"Ever since I went to see 'Avatar' I have been depressed. Watching the wonderful world of Pandora and all the Na'vi made me want to be one of them. I can't stop thinking about all the things that happened in the film and all of the tears and shivers I got from it," Mike posted. "I even contemplate suicide thinking that if I do it I will be rebirthed in a world similar to Pandora and the everything is the same as in 'Avatar.' "
Other fans have expressed feelings of disgust with the human race and disengagement with reality.
Cameron's movie, which has pulled in more than $1.4 billion in worldwide box office sales and could be on track to be the highest grossing film of all time, is set in the future when the Earth's resources have been pillaged by the human race. A greedy corporation is trying to mine the rare mineral unobtainium from the planet Pandora, which is inhabited by a peace-loving race of 7-foot tall, blue-skinned natives called the Na'vi.
In their race to mine for Pandora's resources, the humans clash with the Na'vi, leading to casualties on both sides. The world of Pandora is reminiscent of a prehistoric fantasyland, filled with dinosaur-like creatures mixed with the kinds of fauna you may find in the deep reaches of the ocean. Compared with life on Earth, Pandora is a beautiful, glowing utopia.
Ivar Hill posts to the "Avatar" forum page under the name Eltu. He wrote about his post-"Avatar" depression after he first saw the film earlier this month.
"When I woke up this morning after watching Avatar for the first time yesterday, the world seemed ... gray. It was like my whole life, everything I've done and worked for, lost its meaning," Hill wrote on the forum. "It just seems so ... meaningless. I still don't really see any reason to keep ... doing things at all. I live in a dying world."
Reached via e-mail in Sweden where he is studying game design, Hill, 17, explained that his feelings of despair made him desperately want to escape reality.
"One can say my depression was twofold: I was depressed because I really wanted to live in Pandora, which seemed like such a perfect place, but I was also depressed and disgusted with the sight of our world, what we have done to Earth. I so much wanted to escape reality," Hill said.
Cameron's special effects masterpiece is very lifelike, and the 3-D performance capture and CGI effects essentially allow the viewer to enter the alien world of Pandora for the movie's 2½-hour running time, which only lends to the separation anxiety some individuals experience when they depart the movie theater.
"Virtual life is not real life and it never will be, but this is the pinnacle of what we can build in a virtual presentation so far," said Dr. Stephan Quentzel, psychiatrist and Medical Director for the Louis Armstrong Center for Music and Medicine at Beth Israel Medical Center in New York. "It has taken the best of our technology to create this virtual world and real life will never be as utopian as it seems onscreen. It makes real life seem more imperfect."
Fans of the movie may find actor Stephen Lang, who plays the villainous Col. Miles Quaritch in the film, an enemy of the Na'vi people and their sacred ground, an unlikely sympathizer. But Lang says he can understand the connection people are feeling with the movie.
"Pandora is a pristine world and there is the synergy between all of the creatures of the planet and I think that strikes a deep chord within people that has a wishfulness and a wistfulness to it," Lang said. "James Cameron had the technical resources to go along with this incredibly fertile imagination of his and his dream is built out of the same things that other peoples' dreams are made of."
The bright side is that for Hill and others like him -- who became dissatisfied with their own lives and with our imperfect world after enjoying the fictional creation of James Cameron -- becoming a part of a community of like-minded people on an online forum has helped them emerge from the darkness.
"After discussing on the forums for a while now, my depression is beginning to fade away. Having taken a part in many discussions concerning all this has really, really helped me," Hill said. "Before, I had lost the reason to keep on living -- but now it feels like these feelings are gradually being replaced with others."
Quentzel said creating relationships with others is one of the keys to human happiness, and that even if those connections are occurring online they are better than nothing.
"Obviously there is community building in these forums," Quentzel said. "It may be technologically different from other community building, but it serves the same purpose."
Within the fan community, suggestions for battling feelings of depression after seeing the movie include things like playing "Avatar" video games or downloading the movie soundtrack, in addition to encouraging members to relate to other people outside the virtual realm and to seek out positive and constructive activities.
It would be so awesome if all these people vowed to never have children. Of course the black hole created by the lameness makes chances of that highly likely...
Emo wussiesd. Where's Blade when you need him?
I think its just a cult trying to gain charitable status. At least, that's what I have to believe. Because if I have to take this seriously, I will lose all faith in humanity, and be forced to facepalm for 24 hours solid.
These people have no idea what depression's really like...
But seriously, if Hollywood made a movie claiming (insert name here) is some sort of divine being, then people probably would start believing it. There's real hope for humanity when people contemplate suicide after seeing a great movie
Ive long pointed this out to my missus when she talks about "nature" whenever we watch a BBC documentary in HD.
A helicopter with a HD camera flying over an arctic tundra makes the place look bloody lovely, as does a lush Jungle in Africa or the craggy snowcapped beauty of the Hindu Kush in Afghanistan.
Now, i did my arctic training in Northern Norway, did a tour of Sierra Leone and went to Afghanistan twice, ive seen, nay, LIVED in all the places above.
Its fething horrible. The biting wind, the endless fething snow. The honking heat and humidity of the jungle, the bugs, the fething gak you have to eat when your there. The gakky sandy fething desert.. I have no desire to ever go to these places again as a resuly of my military training. I even look at hill walkers on Brecon or in the Lake District and think "sad bastards..." All that forced marching seems to have ruined it for me.
Anyway, the point is, sure it looks ace on 3D IMAX, but if any of these sad bastards actually went to a lush jungle, sat in the horrible wet heat, and got troughed by some fething ants before going to sleep in a TREE, they would be "Depressed" about not having Air conditioning, A cold bottle of water from the fridge, a decent meal and a proper comy matress to sleep on.
Oh, and it was an internet forum. Theres no electricity, let alone broadband on Pandora!
Valkyrie wrote:These people have no idea what depression's really like...
But seriously, if Hollywood made a movie claiming (insert name here) is some sort of divine being, then people probably would start believing it. There's real hope for humanity when people contemplate suicide after seeing a great movie
*Sarcastic mode off*
What's even more depressing is that people are threatening suicide after seeing a mediocre movie.
Howlingmoon wrote:well yeah. a lot of furries got depressed because they can't have Zoe Saladane as they're own personal blue catgirl thing.
Guess that makes me a furry then, who knew? Course with her being ten foot tall and all the phrase "hotdog down a hallway" comes to mind.
"This is the first community on the internet for Na'vi 'Kin - those who are Na'vi in human form. Be it reincarnated Na'vi, Na'vi on a mental level, or spiritual Na'vi, we have one thing in common - we are Na'vi, truly, in our hearts and at our cores.
The aim of We Are Na'vi is to provide a safe environment for Na'vi 'Kin to gather and talk. I am the first, but undoubtedly not the last. When more Awaken to their true selves and have the Realization they will doubtless seek out a place to call home and be themselves. We Are Na'vi is that place."
This is so stupid its physically painful to read. Therefore I quoted it in an effort to make others suffer.
They must be exaggerating for attention or depressed due to a chemical imbalance or something and making this their reason. I refuse to believe someone could be actually, really, depressed over something as trivial as this.
Jesus fething christ.
Ketara wrote:At least, that's what I have to believe. Because if I have to take this seriously, I will lose all faith in humanity, and be forced to facepalm for 24 hours solid.
It's too late for me, but there may still be time for you, Ketara.
At least on other person finally agrees with me. I say that theses people should be given their dreams. Throw them into a jungle, either the amazon or congo. If 100 of these people were thrown in I would wager every dollar I have that no more than 5 survive a month. That solves all problems.
At least on other person finally agrees with me. I say that theses people should be given their dreams. Throw them into a jungle, either the amazon or congo. If 100 of these people were thrown in I would wager every dollar I have that no more than 5 survive a month. That solves all problems.
A month? Not even 5 would last that long in either without support.
Between the animals(chimpanzees alone in the Congo will tear a man apart without trouble, not to mention the various other species in both that are poisonous) and the various poisonous flora, most people wouldn't last a week left alone in there(especially if they had no wilderness training or knowledge of what's safe to eat and drink).
I can say that while these people need help, they actually need help. I have hardcore depression and have spent the night in a psych ward for attempting suicide so i can get the disconnect. You never know what it might take to trigger something that somebody has pent up, and I'm sure people have offed themselves for less. I know this is the internet, but you might try going easier on those of us who clearly have something wrong and need help Hopefully I'm not sounding preachy, not my intention at all.
That is what I meant when I said they must have already had a chemical imbalance. What makes it unbelieveable for me is that so many hardcore avatar fans would have a chemical imbalance like that- it's not THAT common. I've had the other kind of depression, the sort related to bad life events, and the triggers for that have to be a bit more extreme than a film in general, or your life must be incredibly sheltered, which I think makes you fair game for some slagging.
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: but you might try going easier on those of us who clearly have something wrong and need help
Did Avatar make you suicidal because you can't live in a death world jungle as well? I ask because we weren't talking about clinical depression in general but you used the first person plural form.
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: Hopefully I'm not sounding preachy, not my intention at all.
It wasn't your intention but it still happened.
While a few of these cases may be legitimate (though it wouldn't be solely Avatar, as said, something there before) many of them are just jagoffs that want to live in a fairy world instead of the real one. Every day is fun in Pandora where you don't have to work and you don't have a boss or a mortgage and you get to wear that leather bracelet that makes you look really cool. Of course they never see the actual work that goes into keeping a primitive (I am loathe to use the term but it wll work for now) society alive. It is all running in the trees and riding dragons by sticking your genitals into them.
It is very important to realize how crippling serious depression can be. All of my sentiments about parts of the psychiatric industry aside, depression is a very real condition, that can be triggered by almost anything.
Having such easily accessible triggers, as a movie is able to cause them, is an indicator of how much help a person needs. I have a hard time grouping all cases of depression into one basket though. TBH, even though depression can be associated with delusions/ psychosis, after a certain point there may be a strong link to symptoms of Schizophrenia. Short term psychosis can end very badly, and it is very hard for a person that has never experienced such intense confusion. To overlook the fact that people experiencing it, may have not literal control over how they deal with the experience, is just unfair to the individual.
I am not a professional, nor do I particularly trust many of the professionals in the Psych. industry, but there is something to be said for group therapy. In a nutshell, that is all most of these "cults" seem to be. I can honestly say that parts of the furry community are well aware that they are just taking part in a fetish. Wanting to live on Pandora, and building an intricate sub-identity, is simple madness. I find it hard to believe that the majority of the people in this specific social offshoot, have gone to the lengths that would compose a full on case of delusion. Some people listen to Rock, and dress like they do, some listen to Techno and do the same (looking crazy as hell doing it to, but it appears to be in a somewhat socially accepted way). Other people like to dress up like bunnies... which is really not that much crazier than many styles I have seen walking around, partying it up.
Wrex after New Years...
"Huh? Makeup? Oh... well, at least I have a smoke and some booze. This booze appears to have been used as an ashtray..."
Oh ffs, this always happens in these threads doesn't it? We start on one specific group of sad lonely people and suddenly people act like were bagging on every case of depression ever. NO ONE AT ANY POINT IN ANY OF THESE THREADS HAS DENIED THAT CLINICAL DEPRESSION IS REAL OR THAT IT ISN'T SERIOUS.
The day I meet a furry that knows that it is just a fetish I will agree with you but every single one one I have met has taken it to that next level. I'm sure the exception is out there but I haven't met it.
Wrex wrote:I have a hard time grouping all cases of depression into one basket though.
Which is why I mentioned that...
There are many types of people, even in this group of Avatar-lovers. The fact that they are into Avatar is not directly indicative of much of anything, besides their particular coping mechanisms.
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: but you might try going easier on those of us who clearly have something wrong and need help
Did Avatar make you suicidal because you can't live in a death world jungle as well? I ask because we weren't talking about clinical depression in general but you used the first person plural form.
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: Hopefully I'm not sounding preachy, not my intention at all.
It wasn't your intention but it still happened.
No, not at all. I've tried escapism before (in much better fictional universes at that) and it has never really worked out that well If giving a disclaimer, a smiley and using the phrase "you might" is still preachy, I give up the internet.
Good yet scary stuff although for crazy nerd-stuff I prefer the Austrailians who are trying (or tried, been a while) to make Jedi an official religion via census reports.
Miguelsan wrote:Avatar has been pictured as racist too, isn´t that fun?
M.
WTF? There are people calling it racist because it stereotypes 8' tall blues aliens with tales? Are we going to have a million Navi march now?
Good Hell, when a show like this comes out, some of the people that go see it always make me feel at least one rung higher on the food chain than I thought I was!
I remember when Star Wars first came out, Alec Guiness was hounded by people approaching him asking for instuction in the ways of the force.
It'd be fun to start a thread to show how people overreact to movies.
They think it sterotypes native americans.
and it also cause the hero is white and it helping another race. there basically saying "the main hero is white, it sterotypes that other races cant solve there own problem.
Wow, neither of you really understand the argument yet are able to put it into such simplistic terms to try and dismiss it out of hand. Ignorance and lack of proper research all in one fell swoop. Hooray!
Ahtman wrote:Wow, neither of you really understand the argument yet are able to put it into such simplistic terms to try and dismiss it out of hand. Ignorance and lack of proper research all in one fell swoop. Hooray!
I researched it and found the arguments silly. That's the reason I say some people are prone to overreact and find offense where none was intended.
Ahtman wrote:Wow, neither of you really understand the argument yet are able to put it into such simplistic terms to try and dismiss it out of hand. Ignorance and lack of proper research all in one fell swoop. Hooray!
I researched it and found the arguments silly. That's the reason I say some people are prone to overreact and find offense where none was intended.
Again, if you had done research you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss with a wave of your hand and monocle firmly in place. You can disagree, but you aren't just disagreeing, you are belittling the people just because you lack their perspective. You also seem to be treating racism as if it were a single type of expression where it is not. Not all racism is as overt or purposeful as a cross burning in a front yard. The arguments aren't as simplistic as you are presenting them, and by doing so you are doing a disservice to yourself and to the greater dialogue on the subject. It could also just be that you are so submersed into white privilege that you can't see out of it. Like people who dismissed minorities that complained that police treated them differently when they got pulled over and they were dismissed. Guess what, they were treated differently, it wasn't just a made up story.
"This is the first community on the internet for Na'vi 'Kin - those who are Na'vi in human form. Be it reincarnated Na'vi, Na'vi on a mental level, or spiritual Na'vi, we have one thing in common - we are Na'vi, truly, in our hearts and at our cores.
The aim of We Are Na'vi is to provide a safe environment for Na'vi 'Kin to gather and talk. I am the first, but undoubtedly not the last. When more Awaken to their true selves and have the Realization they will doubtless seek out a place to call home and be themselves. We Are Na'vi is that place."
Manchu wrote:How can you be re-incarnated from a fictional species?
Look up the otherkin, they've been claiming reincarnation from fictional species for a while now. A fair whack of them claim reincarnation from stuff out of the D&D Monster Manual.
There's this whole mythology about the elven holocaust, and how mean, horrible humans killed all these elves and it so much worse than the holocaust. It's seriously bonkers.
Yeah, Wiccans have the same mythology. We might could construct a chart detailing the slipping of the collective pop-conscience into a fantasy world but . . . who has the energy.
binky wrote:When did it become okay to take fiction so far?
I gamed in the early 90s, before people started turning tubes into the internet. Every other group I played in seemed to have one guy who really, really into the fiction. The guy who found it really important that phasers work exactly like they 'really' do. The guy who never talked about anything but the game, or the setting of the game.
It seems those guys have found the internet, and used the internet to find each other. Like any echo chamber, their crazy reinforces their crazy, and they all get nuttier until some of them actually believe they the soul of an elf inside them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote:Yeah, Wiccans have the same mythology. We might could construct a chart detailing the slipping of the collective pop-conscience into a fantasy world but . . . who has the energy.
Oh yeah, the burning times. As an innocent young lad I once told a wiccan that there was no historical basis for the burning times... I learnt a lot about human nature that day.
Ahtman wrote:Wow, neither of you really understand the argument yet are able to put it into such simplistic terms to try and dismiss it out of hand. Ignorance and lack of proper research all in one fell swoop. Hooray!
I researched it and found the arguments silly. That's the reason I say some people are prone to overreact and find offense where none was intended.
Again, if you had done research you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss with a wave of your hand and monocle firmly in place. You can disagree, but you aren't just disagreeing, you are belittling the people just because you lack their perspective. You also seem to be treating racism as if it were a single type of expression where it is not. Not all racism is as overt or purposeful as a cross burning in a front yard. The arguments aren't as simplistic as you are presenting them, and by doing so you are doing a disservice to yourself and to the greater dialogue on the subject. It could also just be that you are so submersed into white privilege that you can't see out of it. Like people who dismissed minorities that complained that police treated them differently when they got pulled over and they were dismissed. Guess what, they were treated differently, it wasn't just a made up story.
This gets funnier by the minute. A few posts earlier, you call people "Jagoffs" because they might be suffering from depression for what might be deeper circumstances than you realize or care to look into. Then you turn around and say I'm into white privilige so deep that I wave a dismissive hand at people that say Avatar is racist because they claim it took a white man to save 8' tall blue aliens. Then you go on to talk about traffic stops for some reason I can't see.
I say give it a rest, it was just a movie. But then again, Blade offended me because it took a black man to kill vampires. I'm so depressed about this...
Da Boss wrote:That is what I meant when I said they must have already had a chemical imbalance. What makes it unbelieveable for me is that so many hardcore avatar fans would have a chemical imbalance like that- it's not THAT common. I've had the other kind of depression, the sort related to bad life events, and the triggers for that have to be a bit more extreme than a film in general, or your life must be incredibly sheltered, which I think makes you fair game for some slagging.
That would be because there might have been one or two unbalanced people who actually felt this way. Followed by a metric -ton of internet trolls that hammered the story into the ground.
This movie is rascist though. How come the humans are trying to get resources from any planet they can see? How come the blue guys are 8 foot giants that can take down robots? The answer is, the Na"vi are secretly the Ultramarines. This would explain why all of the humans (possible 40k players) hate them.
Ahtman wrote:Wow, neither of you really understand the argument yet are able to put it into such simplistic terms to try and dismiss it out of hand. Ignorance and lack of proper research all in one fell swoop. Hooray!
I researched it and found the arguments silly. That's the reason I say some people are prone to overreact and find offense where none was intended.
Again, if you had done research you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss with a wave of your hand and monocle firmly in place. You can disagree, but you aren't just disagreeing, you are belittling the people just because you lack their perspective. You also seem to be treating racism as if it were a single type of expression where it is not. Not all racism is as overt or purposeful as a cross burning in a front yard. The arguments aren't as simplistic as you are presenting them, and by doing so you are doing a disservice to yourself and to the greater dialogue on the subject. It could also just be that you are so submersed into white privilege that you can't see out of it. Like people who dismissed minorities that complained that police treated them differently when they got pulled over and they were dismissed. Guess what, they were treated differently, it wasn't just a made up story.
This gets funnier by the minute. A few posts earlier, you call people "Jagoffs" because they might be suffering from depression for what might be deeper circumstances than you realize or care to look into. Then you turn around and say I'm into white privilige so deep that I wave a dismissive hand at people that say Avatar is racist because they claim it took a white man to save 8' tall blue aliens. Then you go on to talk about traffic stops for some reason I can't see.
I say give it a rest, it was just a movie. But then again, Blade offended me because it took a black man to kill vampires. I'm so depressed about this...
Besides twisting my words (there is no real comparison between this and what I said before Scarecrow) because you can't actually refute my argument without doing you also show a profound misunderstanding/ignorance of the following:
History
Literature
Sociology
Cinema
Psychology
I would have included reading comprehension, because I think it is true, but that would be mean so I won't.
Dude, learn to chill. It's common for people to seek rascist images/remarks if one is prone to doing so. If a person is so enthused by the fact that there may be a racial subtext in any form of media or even in the way the world spins, then they will seek it even if they can only grasp at straws.
For example, I find the N word offensive for several reasons(black relatives, people are too stupid to stop using it) as do several people that I know. One of these freinds was on a bus and a black guy was watching the boondocks at a high volume. My friend asked him to turn it down and the black guy insisted that my friend was a "white devil trying to put him down". In this case a person found rascism in his own mind, in a case that really had no rascism.
Avatar really is not rascist, it uses a stereotype that is based off of not just native americans, but many of the first peoples. They use primitive weapons and wear little clothing which is akin to just about any prehistoric person. They also worship nature and live together with it as did many ancient cultures and even the druids in europe. The closest thing they have is that it's like the european settlers coming to the new world. I find several discrepencies though;
1) The new world was seen as a wondeful place to start again.
2) The settlers were actual settlers and did not consist of only people who wanted some resource, but instead wanted a new life(ie, most of New England and the area around wisconsin).
3) In the real world, some of the settlers tried to coexist with the native people.
4) In some areas the natives just plain didn't like the settlers, and both sides tried acts of violence(ie, killing men, women, and children).
Someone picked up a hint of potential rascism and broadcast in hopes that people with rascist radars would also pick up on the signal.
The Associated Press wrote:Since the film opened to widespread critical acclaim three weeks ago, hundreds of blog posts, newspaper articles, tweets and YouTube videos have said things such as the film is "a fantasy about race told from the point of view of white people" and that it reinforces "the white Messiah fable."
Hurm... Reminds me of something...
John 4:21-23 Avatar Jesus Jake declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father Awa neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem on Pandora. You Samaritans Na'vi worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews humans."
Conclusion: Cameron is a sexist bigot that plagiarized the Bible.
/sarcasm=off
Back on topic, like Wrex said, depression is a serious problem. Triggers can be anywhere and be anything, but very from person to person.
Take me, for example: I once started crying (not a little trickle, full man tears) in a Chili's restaurant because their Country Fried Steak tasted like my late mother's recipe.
Mock me if you will, but I became hopelessly distraught for about 3 hours because a piece of delicious deep-fried meat made me miss my mom.
The Twelve Steps to Recovery wrote:
Step 1: Admit you are powerless over (what ever your affliction) and that your life is unmanageable....
There are people crying out for help because they have lost their hope in humanity and in themselves, and you guys mock them and make jokes about them at their expense.
Ahtman wrote:Wow, neither of you really understand the argument yet are able to put it into such simplistic terms to try and dismiss it out of hand. Ignorance and lack of proper research all in one fell swoop. Hooray!
I researched it and found the arguments silly. That's the reason I say some people are prone to overreact and find offense where none was intended.
Again, if you had done research you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss with a wave of your hand and monocle firmly in place. You can disagree, but you aren't just disagreeing, you are belittling the people just because you lack their perspective. You also seem to be treating racism as if it were a single type of expression where it is not. Not all racism is as overt or purposeful as a cross burning in a front yard. The arguments aren't as simplistic as you are presenting them, and by doing so you are doing a disservice to yourself and to the greater dialogue on the subject. It could also just be that you are so submersed into white privilege that you can't see out of it. Like people who dismissed minorities that complained that police treated them differently when they got pulled over and they were dismissed. Guess what, they were treated differently, it wasn't just a made up story.
This gets funnier by the minute. A few posts earlier, you call people "Jagoffs" because they might be suffering from depression for what might be deeper circumstances than you realize or care to look into. Then you turn around and say I'm into white privilige so deep that I wave a dismissive hand at people that say Avatar is racist because they claim it took a white man to save 8' tall blue aliens. Then you go on to talk about traffic stops for some reason I can't see.
I say give it a rest, it was just a movie. But then again, Blade offended me because it took a black man to kill vampires. I'm so depressed about this...
Besides twisting my words (there is no real comparison between this and what I said before Scarecrow) because you can't actually refute my argument without doing you also show a profound misunderstanding/ignorance of the following:
History
Literature
Sociology
Cinema
Psychology
I would have included reading comprehension, because I think it is true, but that would be mean so I won't.
That's me, just a caveman suckin' down mint julips on my front porch listening to the happy sounds of the blue aliens we humans have saved as they work my fields.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tblock1984 wrote:
The Associated Press wrote:Since the film opened to widespread critical acclaim three weeks ago, hundreds of blog posts, newspaper articles, tweets and YouTube videos have said things such as the film is "a fantasy about race told from the point of view of white people" and that it reinforces "the white Messiah fable."
Hurm... Reminds me of something...
John 4:21-23 Avatar Jesus Jake declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father Awa neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem on Pandora. You Samaritans Na'vi worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews humans."
Conclusion: Cameron is a sexist bigot that plagiarized the Bible.
/sarcasm=off
Back on topic, like Wrex said, depression is a serious problem. Triggers can be anywhere and be anything, but very from person to person.
Take me, for example: I once started crying (not a little trickle, full man tears) in a Chili's restaurant because their Country Fried Steak tasted like my late mother's recipe.
Mock me if you will, but I became hopelessly distraught for about 3 hours because a piece of delicious deep-fried meat made me miss my mom.
The Twelve Steps to Recovery wrote:
Step 1: Admit you are powerless over (what ever your affliction) and that your life is unmanageable....
There are people crying out for help because they have lost their hope in humanity and in themselves, and you guys mock them and make jokes about them at their expense.
I am disappoint, Dakka. I am disappoint...
I think you hit it on the head with the trigger comment.
Relapse wrote:But then again, Blade offended me because it took a black man to kill vampires. I'm so depressed about this...
Please stop opening old wounds!
It only gets worse. Will Smith then had to be the one to take on a planet full of mutants...and we all know he's black. Will Hollywood never get over giving us these snubs masquarading as entertainment?
Relapse wrote:But then again, Blade offended me because it took a black man to kill vampires. I'm so depressed about this...
Yeah, thing is that Blade is one movie. Avatar is one movie in a lengthy history of film, in which . Personally I think that tying Avatar to that heritage is a stretch, and am not convinced about the racism of the white man saving the natives in most cases. Generally a man from a Western culture is placed in the central role as they want a viewpoint character, and want the audience to imagine themselves becoming part of the culture.
But it's important to understand that while a single film might not be racist, it can form a part of trend that as a whole begins to take on racist elements. It isn't racist for the black guy to get killed in a horror movie, but when the black gets offed in every horror movie it begins to form an unhealthy pattern. It isn't bigoted to kill the gay guy in an action movie, but can you name an action movie where the gay dude lives?
Effeminate male villians tend to die less painfully, than their grizzled counterparts. Is there a trend against grizzled male villians?
I understand your point, but considering the vast expanse that hollywood film actually encompasses, I simply cannot take any 'trend' all that seriously.
'An unhealthy pattern' = Not seeing movies made by a specific director or studio, and clearly explaining the trend set by said director/producer/actor/studio, etc... I see none of these trends spelling out anything besides, people love to pick on Hollywood... because they get to have their own sign.
I mean, I DON'T GET MY OWN SIGN. WTH!
It isn't bigoted to kill the gay guy in an action movie, but can you name an action movie where the gay dude lives?
BTW, are you insinuating that gay male heroes fair better than straight ones? You may have a point in the fact that these roles are slim to none in quantity. I can't think of anything off the top of my head. 'Gay' does make some people uncomfortable, but seeing a gay man, saving the day and getting the man of his dreams is just a matter of time at this point. It would be refreshing as well TBH, the same story told for eons, with a modern spin. Even moderner than a black hero, or a Jewish hero... cheesy to me, but I get it.
Yes. The quirky character tends to get a pretty gnarly stick shoved into their role, but I would hardly call that a huge trend, it is just how many stories work. I can see how the LGBT community could have something to say about the fact that rarely are protagonists gay, but I would have to take into account how small their demographic is... OH! The fact that 'Broke-back Mountain' was such a success, really sways my opinion on this whole sub-topic.
To people saying Hollywood is in fact 'racist', WILL. FREAKING. SMITH.
Chris Rock.
The Wayan's Bros.
Samuel L. Jackson
Halle Berry.
Platuan4th wrote:Racism is more than just African Americans.
In the context of Avatar being 'racist', this means absolutely nothing. The fact that the main character started out pink and tiny, yet became physically blue and massive, makes all of this irrelevant IMO. Dances with wolves had more substantial points to pick on, in this respect.
The guy from Avatar, actually became blue... I thought that needed to be said twice.
Other than George Lopez and (ugh) Carlos Mencia, how many big Mexicans? How bout Inuits, Native Americans, Indians, Middle Easterners?
As for the Indians, if Bollywood is not enough to counter that, then I really don't care. For the rest, and I consider this kind of dancing silly, there are several movies starring Native Americans as the protagonists, and 'middle eastern' cinema is becoming more and more popular. It all has to do with the context, and more often than not, the trend is going away from storylines based around whitey Mcwhiterson. More towards complex stories that study many characters, and the role they play in a story. Many people did not like Babel (I enjoyed it somewhat), but the film was pretty decent at pointing out the fact that Brad Pitt was not some sort of Demi-god, amongst ravenous savages.
Just pointing out how many African American big actors there are doesn't mean there isn't some latent racism inherent in the system.
Again, what system? What exactly is it that you mean when you say that? There are several separate studios that are all competing for their market share. Nearly every movie is made with a different staff, that represents sometimes thousands of people. If a fat white guy, sitting in some office, actually is making decisions that actively manipulate hollywood cinema in a 'racist' way; I have never seen or heard of him.
Also, don't forget, there's plenty of anti-White racism in Hollywod, too(Spike Lee).
That is the substance of this topic, I get bored when it boils down to black/white/red/purple... well... more purple would be cool. Hollywood could always use more sparkly characters.
Racism is stupid, there is no two ways around that. What matters, is the fact that people are able to identify with each other, through cinema and the like. As long as it is not going backwards, to a time of blatant racism, all is well in my book. Race 'situations', are inherent to american culture as a whole, and will stay with us for a very long time. Getting past the fact that racism is stupid, and moving towards the fact that no everything need be 'P.C', for the world to go around is a positive goal.
There is no equal opportunity in Hollywood, there is only cashflow. If a 3-headed serpent of doom and pain, and more pain and doom, could sell tickets to movies, I can hardly imagine some studio not grabbing that bastard by the jubblies.
Wrexasaur wrote:BTW, are you insinuating that gay male heroes fair better than straight ones?
I can name a lot of action movie where straight protagonists live, but for gay protagonists the only one I can think of Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, and that only does it by deliberately subverting the cliche of the dead gay character.
Oh, and possibly also Top Gun, depending on how you read that volleyball scene.
You may have a point in the fact that these roles are slim to none in quantity. I can't think of anything off the top of my head. 'Gay' does make some people uncomfortable, but seeing a gay man, saving the day and getting the man of his dreams is just a matter of time at this point. It would be refreshing as well TBH, the same story told for eons, with a modern spin. Even moderner than a black hero, or a Jewish hero... cheesy to me, but I get it.
The issue isn't just that these characters are rare, it's that when they're featured they almost always come to a bad end.
Yes. The quirky character tends to get a pretty gnarly stick shoved into their role, but I would hardly call that a huge trend, it is just how many stories work. I can see how the LGBT community could have something to say about the fact that rarely are protagonists gay, but I would have to take into account how small their demographic is... OH! The fact that 'Broke-back Mountain' was such a success, really sways my opinion on this whole sub-topic.
Brokeback was a great movie, and certainly not bigoted. But it fits into another Hollywood cliche, where minority characters are almost always tragic figures. Think about the number of decent gay characters in film, not lady boys played for laughs but actual decent characters - and then think about the number of them that aren't beaten, killed, or contract AIDS.
So, you know, films like Brokeback and Philadelphia aren't bigoted, quite the opposite, but they fit into another unfortunate, long running trend. It is worthwhile identifying those trends, in the hope that future films will look to break them.
To people saying Hollywood is in fact 'racist', WILL. FREAKING. SMITH.
Chris Rock.
The Wayan's Bros.
Samuel L. Jackson
Halle Berry.
It isn't about the idea that black person can or cannot be a leading man. There's a black president but that doesn't mean all issues of race have gone away.
sebster wrote:It isn't about the idea that black person can or cannot be a leading person. There's a black president but that doesn't mean all issues of race have gone away.
FTFY, .
Stupidity will never fail to play a role in human interaction, and because of this, I can safely assume that the black community (you can call them African American if you like, I have no freaking clue where there heritage lays) has a large role to play in the current mainstream media. Let me be clearer, because I know that sounded odd.
There is no reason that some moron with stupid ideas about 'superior races', should be able to effect how I live my life, and react to cinema. If there are industry professionals that place their career on that theme, I don't know about them. I am specifically talking about Hollywood, not Glenn Beck, and other random cable crap.
Spike lee has done more to cause a rift in this respect than Mel Gibson ever had, in other words. This as well, appears to be little more than stirring the pot, of the would be socially accepted norms that we all live with on a daily basis. Spike lee also may be considered a very major player in the way that Hollywood has approached many of these issues, for better or for worse.
Stupidity will never fail to play a role in human interaction, and because of this, I can safely assume that the black community (you can call them African American if you like, I have no freaking clue where there heritage lays) has a large role to play in the current mainstream media. Let me be clearer, because I know that sounded odd.
There is no reason that some moron with stupid ideas about 'superior races', should be able to effect how I live my life, and react to cinema. If there are industry professionals that place their career on that theme, I don't know about them. I am specifically talking about Hollywood, not Glenn Beck, and other random cable crap.
Are you reading what I'm saying, like even skimming my posts? Because you're not addressing the point I'm making at all.
This is not about issues of racial superiority or of explicit racism. You realise that not all issues of race are about one group believing it is superior to another, yeah? It certainly isn't about producers saying 'you cannot be in this movie because I hate black people'. It is about racism that is almost always unintentional, but still something that needs to be recognised and addressed. It is about the same issues that appearing in movie after movie - the black guy is always killed in horror movies, the gay guy always has a tragic life, the saviour of the indigenous culture is always a white guy.
When people talk about Avatar having problems with race, this is what they are referring to. I don't agree with them, but to have that discussion you have to start from a foundation where you understand there's more to racism in media than race supremacy.
Are you reading what I'm saying, like even skimming my posts? Because you're not addressing the point I'm making at all.
Yes, I am reading your posts sebster.
This is not about issues of racial superiority or of explicit racism. You realise that not all issues of race are about one group believing it is superior to another, yeah?
The fact that you are talking about minor roles, wherein the black person plays a character that dies because of incompetence, A.), B.), or C.), there is a real presence of 'racial superiority' in the conversation. All the white people live, while the token black man dies, is a topic of racial superiority, explicitly. This does not assume that Hollywood has a grudge against the token black guy of course.
It certainly isn't about producers saying 'you cannot be in this movie because I hate black people'.
Ignorance is not based in the fact that someone is hateful.
It is about racism that is almost always unintentional, but still something that needs to be recognised and addressed. It is about the same issues that appearing in movie after movie - the black guy is always killed in horror movies, the gay guy always has a tragic life, the saviour of the indigenous culture is always a white guy.
That is certainly a problem, or at least was to a much larger degree in the past. Mainly, I do hope that old stories get 're-borne' to be accessible to a larger audience.
When people talk about Avatar having problems with race, this is what they are referring to. I don't agree with them, but to have that discussion you have to start from a foundation where you understand there's more to racism in media than race supremacy.
Race supremacy is the key note, of racism. The fact that one 'race', is assumed weaker/stupider/greedier, etc... assumes that others are not. All subtly aside, there is no difference, besides the notions that people prefer to attach to the subject.
I'd like to point out that most of the people I work with are Navajo or from Mexico and points south of there. These were the guys that told me I, ought to go see Avatar, it's a great movie and that they had seen it a few times themselves.
Manchu wrote:I remember coming across the "transporters could totally work" people as a kid. I don't remember the "I am a reincarnated Copper Dragon" people.
Also, I'm guessing you meant "no historical basis."
You just mentioned my favorite type of dragon It's a shame I was reincarnated from a Bronze though.
Fateweaver wrote:Every film to ever come out until the end of time (since we are stuck in this PC nonsense) will piss someone off or offend someone.
People need thicker skins and to quit acting like a movie like Avatar is out to degrade or humiliate their race.
I'm half "Native American" and I feel degraded and humiliated by this movie.....no,wait..it wasn't the movie..it was that long walk and those "free" blankets.
Fateweaver wrote:I'm half-German but I don't protest movie studios when they make the stereotypical "German" extra into a bad guy.
I guess I should take offense because I'm caucasian and all this movie did was portray caucasians as land grabbing donkey-caves.
I take offense at being referred to as a "land grabber". I'm just an donkey-cave, nothing more, nothing less.
Well I'll be I'm half German as well , guess your not a "half" bad guy there Fate.
As for being "land grabbers"...my Father might have a few word on that subject,but nontheless..I can agree with you concerning Hollywood "racial" depictions,basicly I chalk that up to most film producers/writers living in their own little bubbles with no clue as to what the feth is going on in the world around them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
garret wrote:dont you know the rule? nothing is free.
Ahtman wrote:I have a black friend and he told me....
Don't worry, you'll get over it.
That doesn't make any sense as a response.
Just knowing a few people doesn't give you greater insight to a culture, it means you know those people. I know a bunch of Lakota and Miami but they are no more homogeneous than the African-American community. At best it is hearsay and not reliable.
I also think it is funny that the people that are coming across as outraged are the ones having a hissy fit about perceiving others to be outraged. No one has said they were pissed about this or is protesting. No one in this thread, or that poorly researched Yahoo article, have called for James Cameron's head or wished ill will on the principles involved. No one has specifically called them racists either. Recognition of a pattern does not imply anger, it shows critical thinking and analysis. These things are in degrees, but if one can only discern things in binary terms it is impossible to grasp. As I have said before I enjoyed the movie but that doesn't mean I'm blind to it's shortcomings or it's place in a larger cinematic oeuvre.
Ahtman wrote:I have a black friend and he told me....
Don't worry, you'll get over it.
That doesn't make any sense as a response.
Just knowing a few people doesn't give you greater insight to a culture, it means you know those people. I know a bunch of Lakota and Miami but they are no more homogeneous than the African-American community. At best it is hearsay and not reliable.
I also think it is funny that the people that are coming across as outraged are the ones having a hissy fit about perceiving others to be outraged. No one has said they were pissed about this or is protesting. No one in this thread, or that poorly researched Yahoo article, have called for James Cameron's head or wished ill will on the principles involved. No one has specifically called them racists either. Recognition of a pattern does not imply anger, it shows critical thinking and analysis. These things are in degrees, but if one can only discern things in binary terms it is impossible to grasp. As I have said before I enjoyed the movie but that doesn't mean I'm blind to it's shortcomings or it's place in a larger cinematic oeuvre.
See that? You're already talking your way through it! The first steps to recovery.
Fateweaver wrote:I'm half-German but I don't protest movie studios when they make the stereotypical "German" extra into a bad guy.
I guess I should take offense because I'm caucasian and all this movie did was portray caucasians as land grabbing donkey-caves.
I take offense at being referred to as a "land grabber". I'm just an donkey-cave, nothing more, nothing less.
Well I'll be I'm half German as well , guess your not a "half" bad guy there Fate.
As for being "land grabbers"...my Father might have a few word on that subject,but nontheless..I can agree with you concerning Hollywood "racial" depictions,basicly I chalk that up to most film producers/writers living in their own little bubbles with no clue as to what the feth is going on in the world around them.
It's an unfortunate part of human history that the stronger will often take from the weak. The Black Hills had been fought over by the different tribes in the region for centuries before White men came, as an example. Around here, the Hopi and Navajo sometimes get into it because the Navajo pushed the Hopi off their land, and Aztecs weren't exactly sweethearts to those around them.
Something that I haven't heard complained about anywhere is how the Marines are depicted as villains almost to a man with no redeeming qualities at all.
That being said, I don't mind at all the thought of the Saints totaly taking over the field from the Cardinals.
I can't believe how seriously people are taking movies now a days. I went and saw Avatar and I liked it, but I didn't have seperation anxiety afterwards or anything. People need to stop looking into TV and movies so much, it kinda freaks me out the importance people are puting into things meant solely for entertainment. I recommend these people who feel like they can't go on without living in pandora, and they don't have some kind of pre-existing depression or chemical imbalance, to go play spore, (I totally thought of avatar as Spore, the movie). If it's real serious problem and they really do want to kill themselves, then they should go get help! I deffinetly agree with previous posters who said there was something wrong chemically with alot of these people before they saw avatar. It sounds to me that the majority of em are just furries desperate for attention though.
A movie is just that, entertainment, that fact people find enough wrong in this world to want some kind of fictional utopia to this extent I find disturbing.
Wrexasaur wrote:Yes, I am reading your posts sebster.
Cool, sorry if I got a bit snarky there.
The fact that you are talking about minor roles, wherein the black person plays a character that dies because of incompetence, A.), B.), or C.), there is a real presence of 'racial superiority' in the conversation. All the white people live, while the token black man dies, is a topic of racial superiority, explicitly. This does not assume that Hollywood has a grudge against the token black guy of course.
I think it's more accidental, than a comment about racial superiority. The thing is that horror movies, to their credit, made efforts to have mixed casts, but the effort was tokenism to some extent, because the survivor was still going to be the white chick, maybe also the white male love interest of the white chick. As a result, the black guy ends up dying all the time - it isn't part of some message of the white supremacy, but if you look at the pattern across the genre there is an accidental subtext there.
Race supremacy is the key note, of racism. The fact that one 'race', is assumed weaker/stupider/greedier, etc... assumes that others are not. All subtly aside, there is no difference, besides the notions that people prefer to attach to the subject.
I think there's a lot more to race relations than specific, conscious ideas about how other races are different. Racism, at least the part of racism that really matters to me, is more above priviledge than anything else. Personally, if some crazy guy wants to stand on a corner with a sign complaining that the mixing of the white race will end humanity, well that ain't cool but it isn't as big a problem as the vast over-representation of black people among the poor and working poor. The idea that a minority in film is likely to be placed in a stereotyped role, or put in the same cliche narrative they always get, is part of that problem... albeit a very small part of that problem.
sebster wrote:Cool, sorry if I got a bit snarky there.
No worries mate, your reputation precedes you.
I think it's more accidental, than a comment about racial superiority. The thing is that horror movies, to their credit, made efforts to have mixed casts, but the effort was tokenism to some extent, because the survivor was still going to be the white chick, maybe also the white male love interest of the white chick. As a result, the black guy ends up dying all the time - it isn't part of some message of the white supremacy, but if you look at the pattern across the genre there is an accidental subtext there.
When I speak of supremacy, my meaning is very simple.
Person A.) is inferior to person B.)
When I see a black man, die in every horror film to cast a black man in the 'token black man that dies early role', there is a subtext (accidental is related to context, and one could easily assume that it was intentional, for reasons that are purely monetary) leading to this simple core of racism. It is all hinged on the assumption that there is any way, to assume anything about a person, simply due to the color of their skin (basically). Assumptions about a persons genitalia, from their skin color, is also racist; albeit both positive/negative within various context.
I think there's a lot more to race relations than specific, conscious ideas about how other races are different. Racism, at least the part of racism that really matters to me, is more above priviledge than anything else.
Hence my comment about supremacy. If that black guy is actually that hazardous to his own health, while that white guy is so clearly not, that sets a subconscious element of superiority into motion. This all relies on the stupid part of everyone's brains, even if it does not directly infer that people will think in that fashion. It sets a standard, that many people will buy into, though not in a direct, conscious way.
Personally, if some crazy guy wants to stand on a corner with a sign complaining that the mixing of the white race will end humanity, well that ain't cool but it isn't as big a problem as the vast over-representation of black people among the poor and working poor. The idea that a minority in film is likely to be placed in a stereotyped role, or put in the same cliche narrative they always get, is part of that problem... albeit a very small part of that problem
It is also a problem that a white person is placed in many 'positive', stereotypical roles, as it sets a false standard. Being portrayed as a criminal/idiot/first guy to die, ALWAYS... is clearly more negative than being portrayed (generically of course) as a heroic guy that does heroic stuff.
Wrexasaur wrote:This all relies on the stupid part of everyone's brains
I can think of a long list of people who are probably smarter than you (or I) in every subject that would disagree with you on that. Implying you have to be stupid to believe in things like subtext, allegory, symbolism, and a myriad of other concepts is, well, using the stupid part ones brain.
Ahtman wrote:I can think of a long list of people who are probably smarter than you (or I) in every subject that would disagree with you on that. Implying you have to be stupid to believe in things like subtext, allegory, symbolism, and a myriad of other concepts is, well, using the stupid part ones brain.
I wasn't trying to imply that you have to be stupid. I was simply stating that the non-critical part of your mind, is the part to (at least initially) ingest such information/symbolism. Granted, that information can pass through, into the critical part, within fractions of a second.
I suppose that I picked a bad adjective within that context. 'Non-critical' is a more even-handed one, to be sure.
Wrexasaur wrote:When I see a black man, die in every horror film to cast a black man in the 'token black man that dies early role', there is a subtext (accidental is related to context, and one could easily assume that it was intentional, for reasons that are purely monetary) leading to this simple core of racism. It is all hinged on the assumption that there is any way, to assume anything about a person, simply due to the color of their skin (basically). Assumptions about a persons genitalia, from their skin color, is also racist; albeit both positive/negative within various context.
While the claim that someone doesn't see race is kind of a nice idea in theory, in reality it generally amounts to little more than putting your hands over your ears and ignoring the basic issues of priviledge that exist between different races.
Here's the thing, I once thought the same thing as you, that race was artificial and the way forward was simply to look past it. I was, of course, a white kid going to a school that was around 99% white. I would hear complaints that the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs was a white guy and I'd think it was silly, because surely if the person in charge knows the job and isn't racist it shouldn't matter colour his skin colour is. Then I saw a short satirical piece, where the positions of white people and aboriginals were reversed, it wasn't very good for the most part but the bit where the aboriginal Minister for White Affairs sat there talking about aboriginal affairs was pretty effective - who the hell was this aboriginal guy to know what was needed to solve our problems? It was, of course, nothing more than a slightly tv show and nothing in and of itself, but it got the ball rolling for me, I started to get that just 'not seeing race' is something of a crock when the majority has so much more money and so much more power than the minority.
Hence my comment about supremacy. If that black guy is actually that hazardous to his own health, while that white guy is so clearly not, that sets a subconscious element of superiority into motion. This all relies on the stupid part of everyone's brains, even if it does not directly infer that people will think in that fashion. It sets a standard, that many people will buy into, though not in a direct, conscious way.
That seems a stretch to me. I don't think you need to establish that it is subliminally causing attitudes of superiority and inferiority in order to say that the black guy always getting killed is a bad thing. That requirement also sets an impossible standard for other unfortunate cliches, it is bad that homosexuality, even when sympathetic, is shown in tragic terms... this doesn't establish any kind of subliminal message of superiority, but it doesn't have to to be crappy.
It is also a problem that a white person is placed in many 'positive', stereotypical roles, as it sets a false standard. Being portrayed as a criminal/idiot/first guy to die, ALWAYS... is clearly more negative than being portrayed (generically of course) as a heroic guy that does heroic stuff.
That strikes me as a fairly trivial issue, to be honest. I mean, equal treatment in film is pretty trivial compared to income equality, but the difficulty of your race being shown in film as heroic seem to me to be about the smallest problem someone could have.
sebster wrote:While the claim that someone doesn't see race is kind of a nice idea in theory, in reality it generally amounts to little more than putting your hands over your ears and ignoring the basic issues of priviledge that exist between different races.
I am not sure I was clear about what I was attempting to say.
I know for a fact that there are serious disparities that exist in almost every society on the planet. There are situations that someone of a specific ethnicity will have to face, where I will not (varying by society, and context). When I say that race means nothing, it is because the color of ones skin, unless I know more about that persons background, does mean nothing. This is literally talking about the color of that persons skin, and nothing else; not the strange ideas that people attach to the notion surely.
Part of my family is Alaskan, and though I know little of them, I know that they (as natives of Alaska) face hardships due to that simple fact. They do not face these hardships due to their ethnicity, they face them because of the way society views their ethnicity. More directly, how they react to their ethnicity, and how their culture has been brought into the 'mainstream' of societies whole.
Racism is multifaceted, but it does all boil down to privilege (ethnic/cultural hierarchies), although the privileged may not intentionally be obstructing/repressing directly. 'A lack of understanding', is a simple way of summing it all up.
I started to get that just 'not seeing race' is something of a crock when the majority has so much more money and so much more power than the minority.
In my personal interactions with people, I try not to take anything at face value. Although someones appearance may suggest that they are something rather specific (if not stereotypically specific), I assume that as an individual, experiences vary wildly. Not to say that on the whole, there isn't a very distinct pattern amongst the most oppressed communities, in terms of their ability be successful in general.
That seems a stretch to me. I don't think you need to establish that it is subliminally causing attitudes of superiority and inferiority in order to say that the black guy always getting killed is a bad thing. That requirement also sets an impossible standard for other unfortunate cliches, it is bad that homosexuality, even when sympathetic, is shown in tragic terms... this doesn't establish any kind of subliminal message of superiority, but it doesn't have to to be crappy.
It really depends on how you view superiority/inferiority. You can be typecast in conversation, people may assume things that are extremely false, etc... Of course, that is par for the course in most human interaction on the whole, anyway. Reinforcing it with stereotypes, is not a great thing to do. I would in no way, say that the most recent films to come out dealing with the trials and tribulations of the gay community (generically), should have been altered to suit that.
I do hope, as you do, that in the future, more complex stories can be shown via cinema, expressing views from the LGBT community.
That strikes me as a fairly trivial issue, to be honest. I mean, equal treatment in film is pretty trivial compared to income equality, but the difficulty of your race being shown in film as heroic seem to me to be about the smallest problem someone could have.
Yes, last bit was definitely trivial, especially within this context.
It is also a problem that a white American person is placed in many 'positive', stereotypical roles, as it sets a false standard.
Fixed.
Seriously, I can't remember the last time I saw an American film that didn't portray certain American stereotypes of the British. Even when we're not the villains (which is rare enough, I half expected the 'Company' guy in Avatar to be British.. ) - we are portrayed as cowardly, incompetent, aloof, arrogant or clownish. Even when there are heroic Brits, they always end up as a 'noble failure' or just outright dying!
Not in any way saying that this is tantamount to racism, but it's another facet to the disscussion of ethnicity in Popular Culture.
As Albatross mentions (quite well actually, kudos!), its less a "racist" thing, even if the stereotyping is racist at its fundamental core, and more a cultural ignorance thing. Its not a PC thing, Fate, its more about how its become trite to have a repentant white man join the spirtual, in-tune-with-the-earth Natives, versus the ambigously evil "company", etc etc etc. Its a cultural fallacy that isn't getting any fresher, unless its made fun of. The evil German is a good example. The useless Brit (unless they are an evil bastard) is another. Its just a cultural definition of an obsolete world view (including whether or not that world view was ever true to begin with!).
>>Something that I haven't heard complained about anywhere is how the Marines are depicted as villains almost to a man with no redeeming qualities at all.
That was complained about in one of the other threads on the film.
Kilkrazy wrote:>>Something that I haven't heard complained about anywhere is how the Marines are depicted as villains almost to a man with no redeeming qualities at all.
That was complained about in one of the other threads on the film.
The Colonel ignored being on fire in order to STRAP INTO A MECH. That's pretty fething redeeming right there lmao.
The white messiah complex is symptomatic stereotype that affects both ends, not just the Natives.
Wrexasaur wrote:Racism is multifaceted, but it does all boil down to privilege (ethnic/cultural hierarchies), although the privileged may not intentionally be obstructing/repressing directly. 'A lack of understanding', is a simple way of summing it all up.
Cool, I think we pretty much agree on this.
In my personal interactions with people, I try not to take anything at face value. Although someones appearance may suggest that they are something rather specific (if not stereotypically specific), I assume that as an individual, experiences vary wildly. Not to say that on the whole, there isn't a very distinct pattern amongst the most oppressed communities, in terms of their ability be successful in general.
Yeah, I try as well. I fail though, at times, its pretty hard to avoid making assumptions about people.
Anyhow, this has been interesting but we're likely getting way off topic.
Kilkrazy wrote:The point of 3D is to create a reason for a price differential.
Otherwise you would still be watching films in black and white, running at 16 frames a second with no sound track.
Not just to charge more, but to justify people going to the cinema in the first place. With the improvements in home entertainment reaching the point where many people enjoy it as much as seeing it at the movies, the studios are looking to improve the cinema experience. Their answer is 3D.
halonachos wrote:It's not ALWAYS an evil german. It's usually an evil Eastern European guy. Besides James Bond was usually a british guy.
No, it's usually someone of questionable (and sometimes not-so-subtle) Germanic descent.
All I have to say.
@Killkrazy-Keep in mind that these marines are mercenaries, it says so in the first 10 minutes of the movie, where Jake Sully rolls off of the transport onto the military base.
The soldiers don't care what happens as long as they get paid. I'd argue that this is the reason why they have little redeeming qualities.
Fateweaver wrote:Isn't Q in the Bond films an old British dude?
He is the smart one that helps Bond kill bad guys with cool gadgets.
True, there's also James Bond. Bond is the classic British stereotype - aloof, callous, suave and occasionally brutal.
Q is a pretty good exception actually, although some might recognise elements of the classic 'English eccentric' character, especially in John Cleese's portrayals.
Hopefully I'm not sounding preachy, not my intention at all.
-ton of internet trolls that hammered the story into the ground.
