This came up in discussion I was going to see what you guys thought. I personally believe it to be a transport.

1. Under all the entries under Transport it lists the spore pod.

2. Under the spore pod entry it does stated Transported unit etc..

Against

Its not a vehicle. Its a monstrous creature.

Here are my arguments, first if you say it is not a dedicated transport then it is just a transport which means I can put a hive tyrant in my termagants spore pod that they bought.

Now the way I see it it is a dedicated transport and therefore you may place a Alpha Warrior with the squad inside it in a reserve per the dedicated transport rules.


Now onto the other questions:

As a monstrous creature upon landing will it be able to fire both its weapons.

Does it say in the HT or Alpha Warriors section that they can take the Spore Pod just like the Termagaunts or Carnifex does?

Hollismason wrote: As a monstrous creature upon landing will it be able to fire both its weapons.

Yes.

I dont know what that has to do with the question. Alpha Warriors are normal Infantry w/ the independent character rule so per the BRB they can join a squad that has a transport and be inside it. Basically the same way a Librarian could join a Sternguard squad in reserve with a drop pod.


The Hive Tyrant and Alpha do not have access to a spore pod. The hive tyrant couldnt join because it is a monstrous creature and also doesnt have IC rule.

I haven't seen the new Dex yet, but if the entry on the models says can take the Pod as a dedicated transport then yes it follows the dedicated transport rules for deployment. There has to be some sort of rules text for the pods since technically there isn't any BRB rules for any transport that isn't a vehicle.

But as stated above yes MCs are relentless so they can move and fire all weapons.

I've got the dex right in front of me, and here is what it says:

Tyranid Codex page 54 wrote: Transport Spore: A Mycetic Spore always enters play using the Deep Strike rules, even in missions that do not use these rules. If, when the Mycetic Spore Deep Strikes, it scatters on top of impassible terrain or another model (friend or foe!), reduce the scatter by the minimum required to avoid the obstacle. A Mycetic Spore can carry a single unit of up to 20 infantry models or a single monstrous creature within its armored shell. Once the Mycetic Spore has landed, all creatures within must immediately deploy - place the unit such that every model is within 2" of the Mycetic Spore. If any models cannot be deployed because of impassable terrain or enemy models within 1", those models are destroyed. A unit that Deep Strikes via a Mycetic Spore cannot move or assault in the same turn it arrives but may shoot (or run) as normal.

I'm not going to quote it, but it also has a rule called "Immobile Pod" which says that it can't move for any reason once it has entered battle, can't go to ground, can't consolidate or make sweeping advances. Also, every shooting phase it automatically attacks the closes enemy unit. You don't get to pick which one, it's just the closest.


Cheers guys.

They are not Transports, but they have a rule called Transport Spore that tells you how hey work. It allows a single unit to be transported and makes no excepton for an IC. It is purchased as an upgrade for the unit entry, and you couldn't have something else use it.

It states under their entry that they can take it as a transport. That's why I say you can place a alpha warrior within the Spore along with the unit he is accompanying.

Aduro wrote:They are not Transports, but they have a rule called Transport Spore that tells you how hey work. It allows a single unit to be transported and makes no excepton for an IC. It is purchased as an upgrade for the unit entry, and you couldn't have something else use it.

Indeed.

Hollismason wrote:It states under their entry that they can take it as a transport. That's why I say you can place a alpha warrior within the Spore along with the unit he is accompanying.

No, it does not say in any entries for units that can take them "This unit may take a Mycetic Spore as a dedicated transport." It only says "This unit may take a Mycetic Spore." Thereby, you would consult the rule "Transport Spore". Transport Spore makes no mention of it being a Dedicated Transport, so it is not a transport as listed in the BRB.

Also note that by the rules, the nids are never inside the spore. Where drop pods tell you to disembark when landed, spores tell you to deploy the unit next to it.

Under the heading of Transport: Mycetic Spore , would seem to imply that it is a transport purchased for the unit.


If by your defintion explain to my I cannot purchase a Mycetic spore for a Termagant squad. Deploy the termagants without it and put a Hive Tyrant inside it. By your logic I can do this as it states it can transport 20 models or a MC.


This is the logic you are using.

All birds have bills ; a platypus has a bill there fore it is a bird.




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Also it has a transport capacity of 20 models or 1 MC holy crap what do you call something that transports something???!?!!?!?!

Hollismason wrote:Under the heading of Transport: Mycetic Spore , would seem to imply that it is a transport purchased for the unit.

What "heading" are you alluding to, because I just spent the last 4 hours reading the codex and found nothing that said Transport: Mycetic Spore.

Darth Bob wrote:No, it does not say in any entries for units that can take them "This unit may take a Mycetic Spore as a dedicated transport." It only says "This unit may take a Mycetic Spore." Thereby, you would consult the rule "Transport Spore". Transport Spore makes no mention of it being a Dedicated Transport, so it is not a transport as listed in the BRB.

If they aren't dedicated transports, then that means that the spore pods are going to be taking up choice slots as dictated by the selecting unit, since the rulebook only exempts dedicated transports from the FOC. Or does the army list have a statement stating otherwise?

solkan wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:No, it does not say in any entries for units that can take them "This unit may take a Mycetic Spore as a dedicated transport." It only says "This unit may take a Mycetic Spore." Thereby, you would consult the rule "Transport Spore". Transport Spore makes no mention of it being a Dedicated Transport, so it is not a transport as listed in the BRB.

If they aren't dedicated transports, then that means that the spore pods are going to be taking up choice slots as dictated by the selecting unit, since the rulebook only exempts dedicated transports from the FOC. Or does the army list have a statement stating otherwise?

That is indeed a great possibility, in all honesty. It says that they are treated as a seperate, non-scoring unit.

Darth Bob wrote:

solkan wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:No, it does not say in any entries for units that can take them "This unit may take a Mycetic Spore as a dedicated transport." It only says "This unit may take a Mycetic Spore." Thereby, you would consult the rule "Transport Spore". Transport Spore makes no mention of it being a Dedicated Transport, so it is not a transport as listed in the BRB.

If they aren't dedicated transports, then that means that the spore pods are going to be taking up choice slots as dictated by the selecting unit, since the rulebook only exempts dedicated transports from the FOC. Or does the army list have a statement stating otherwise?

That is indeed a great possibility, in all honesty. It says that they are treated as a seperate, non-scoring unit.

The other possibility is that the Tyranid codex is following the practice used by the Tau Empire, Daemonhunter, Witchhunter, and Dark Eldar (and probably other codices) where if a unit can take a transport, it is a dedicated transport. This is consistent with one way of reading the Dedicated Transport box on page 67 of the main rules--the first paragraph of that entry defines a dedicated transport as one selected together with a unit--and as such the more recent trend of labeling transports included with units as dedicated transports is merely for emphasis and clarity.

No, it is not. They are not a Vehicle so they can't be the sub catogry Transport and thus do not follow the rules for them. They have their own rule called Transport Spore that tell you how they work. It says nothing about using someone elses spore, it doesn't even allow you to choose not to use it for the unit who purchased it as their upgrade. Any argument on this is just flat out dumb and I'm finished with it.

No. Models who take a Spore CANNOT be joined by an Independent Character. A Spore is NOT a Transport vehicle.

Darth Bob wrote:

Tyranid Codex page 54 wrote: Transport Spore: A Mycetic Spore always enters play using the Deep Strike rules, even in missions that do not use these rules. If, when the Mycetic Spore Deep Strikes, it scatters on top of impassible terrain or another model (friend or foe!), reduce the scatter by the minimum required to avoid the obstacle. A Mycetic Spore can carry a single unit of up to 20 infantry models or a single monstrous creature within its armored shell. Once the Mycetic Spore has landed, all creatures within must immediately deploy - place the unit such that every model is within 2" of the Mycetic Spore. If any models cannot be deployed because of impassable terrain or enemy models within 1", those models are destroyed. A unit that Deep Strikes via a Mycetic Spore cannot move or assault in the same turn it arrives but may shoot (or run) as normal.

.

BRB p48 wrote:Alternatively an IC may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them.

A mycetic spore can carry a single unit up to 20 infantry models... if the IC is joined to the unit before the game he would be a part of the unit correct?
Now why wouldn't he be able to be considered as part of that "single unit" carried by the Mycetic spore?

paidinfull wrote:A mycetic spore can carry a single unit up to 20 infantry models... if the IC is joined to the unit before the game he would be a part of the unit correct?

No, he is an IC joined to the Unit. They are still 2 separate units. The Spores are NOT Transport vehicles, they do not follow the same rules. Live with it.

"p48
While an IC is part of a unit..."

They aren't separate... how can something be a part of something and separate? They're antonyms

paidinfull wrote:"p48
While an IC is part of a unit..."

They aren't separate... how can something be a part of something and separate? They're antonyms

Salt and Sand.

Mixed together, they are the same mixture, but they are both separate materials.

On second thought, I actually think it is a Dedicated Transport.

In the Codex, where it is detailing the Force Organization chart it specifically says:

Tyranid Codex page 85 wrote:Dedicated Transport: Where Applicable, this section details whether or not the Tyranid unit may purchase a Mycetic Spore, which have their own army list entries on page 90.

I did not notice this before, but now that I have, it seems clear as day that it is indeed a Dedicated Transport since in the section regarding Dedicated Transports it mentions the Mycetic Spore by name.

EDIT: OMG I AM AN IDIOT

I must be on something, because I can't believe I missed this...It says right there under all the things that can take it DEDICATED TRANSPORT: MYCETIC SPORE

Thus there is no doubt that it is a Dedicated Transport.

Yes, it's a Dedicated Transport, but it is NOT a Transport vehicle, and does not follow the transport vehicle rules.

Gwar! wrote:Yes, it's a Dedicated Transport, but it is NOT a Transport vehicle, and does not follow the transport vehicle rules.

Indeed.

Gwar! wrote:Yes, it's a Dedicated Transport, but it is NOT a Transport vehicle, and does not follow the transport vehicle rules.

This is an important distinction. If GW wants the Spores to act just as if they were Vehicles with the Transport type in all cases concerning carrying other models, they need to state it as such. As it is, it is merely a non-vehicle unit that has a specific special rule that allows a single other unit to be deployed near to the Spore after the Spore has arrived by Deep Strike (one might consider it as being more similar to the Trygon's tunnel, with slightly different rules). Since it has no vehicle stat-line, no armor values, but does have toughness, wounds, etc., we cannot automatically assume that any Vehicle specific rule applies to Spores if not specified as such.

Gwar! wrote:No, he is an IC joined to the Unit. They are still 2 separate units.

Really??

You are going to try and argue that an IC joined to a unit is two separate units?

Do you want to take that back, or do I really need to list the reasons why that doesn't work?

Well, considering that they're each worth a kill point, the IC can be singled out in combat as a distinct unit, and they're bought as separate units, I'd say an IC and the squad he joins count as 2 units at some point.

It really is as simple as its a dedicated transport for that unit ; a independent character joined in the unit may be deployed in its dedicated transport.


Its irrelevant of whether its a vehicle or not; its a agreement that it is a dedicated transport it states it several times with in the codex. It is a dedicated transport.


Just because both a duck and platypus both have bills does not mean they both have to be birds.

coredump wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No, he is an IC joined to the Unit. They are still 2 separate units.

Really??

You are going to try and argue that an IC joined to a unit is two separate units?

Do you want to take that back, or do I really need to list the reasons why that doesn't work?

Go ahead. No matter what your "reasons" are though, I am still right, because I have rules to back up my claims.

This argument that all tranports are vehicles is ridiculous a its already been disproven. Codex > than BRB the codex says it is a dedicated transport.

This is in the basic rulebook.


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You don't have rules as much as a completely dismissive state and a sense of undeserved self importance. Really your argument is just.


It doesn't work that way because I do not think it works that way.

Hollismason wrote:This argument that all tranports are vehicles is ridiculous a its already been disproven.

Errm. Whut? All Transport vehicles ARE Vehicles. The Spore is NOT a Transport vehicle. Mainly because it isn't a vehicle.

Codex > than BRB

Wrong.

the codex says it is a dedicated transport.

Yes, and? The codex does NOT say it is a Transport Vehicle Thus, the transport vehicle rules do NOT apply to it.

First off it states in the basic rule book that codex rules that are different or are slightly differentnt you should go with the Codex over the basic rulebook. So that is incorrect. The Tyranid codex states that the spore is a Monstrous Creature that is also a dedicated transport. It's treated as a dedicated transport even though it is not a vehicle.


2nd you just agreed it was a dedicated transport per the rules for dedicated transports on page 67 it says
the only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters


The rule is not for just vehicles it states pretty clearly.

It cannot be halfway purgatorish something. It's a dedicated transport it doesnt take up a FOC, it can only be selected for that unit, and a independent character can be joined and deployed with it.


By your argument I can do this with the rule book.


Page 66
A transport vehicle ----- can ------use a psychic power.


Your ignoring whole parts of the rules for dedicated transports while accepting some of them.

Hollismason wrote:First off it states in the basic rule book that codex rules that are different or are slightly differentnt you should go with the Codex over the basic rulebook.

This is correct.

Codex> Rulebook is not. If Codex>Rulebook, then the reference to Rulebook>Codex in Sweeping Advance would be meaningless. What you are looking for is Specific > General.

2nd you just agreed it was a dedicated transport per the rules for dedicated transports on page 67 it says
the only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters

Yes, and? The more specific rules found in the Tyranid Codex override the general rules found in the main rulebook.


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Hollismason wrote:By your argument I can do this with the rule book.


Page 66
A transport vehicle ----- can ------use a psychic power.


Your ignoring whole parts of the rules for dedicated transports while accepting some of them.

Yay Strawman!

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Hollismason wrote:By your argument I can do this with the rule book.


Page 66
A transport vehicle ----- can ------use a psychic power.


Your ignoring whole parts of the rules for dedicated transports while accepting some of them.

Yay Strawman!

Gwar! wrote:

coredump wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No, he is an IC joined to the Unit. They are still 2 separate units.

Really??

You are going to try and argue that an IC joined to a unit is two separate units?

Do you want to take that back, or do I really need to list the reasons why that doesn't work?

Go ahead. No matter what your "reasons" are though, I am still right, because I have rules to back up my claims.

Gwar! wrote:No matter what your "reasons" are though, I am still "right", because I have "rules" to back up my "claims".

Felt you needed a few more quotes in your rebuttal. While your 'sand and salt' analogy is crystal clear, it is not intensely similar, thus failing. What your missing is that in the rulebook on either P.47 or P.48 (I forget at the moment), it explicitly tells you to treat the joined IC/Upgrade Character as 'just another trooper' in the unit it joined. For regular deployment and reserves a dedicated transport and the unit it was bought for are effectively considered one unit if those troops decide to be embarked in the vehicle during deployment. Since the Pod is also considered a dedicated transport there is no reason why an IC may not join the unit that is embarked upon it. Once the game begins the infantry unit and the dedicated transport are two units from that point on.

Perhaps you meant to say that there are times throughout the game that an IC and the unit it joined are treated as separate units (e.g., Assault, when the unit is wiped out, IC leaves the unit, etc).

Edit: Just a slight clarification in case you pick up on it. I do understand that the embarked unit and transport are two separate units. But for the purposes of deployement/reserves they 'act' as one. Again, there is no reason, unless the IC's rules explicitly disallow it, to stop a character from joining a unit that has purchased, and embarked upon, a Dedicated Transport. On more edit, Dedicated Troops do not take up a slot on the FoC. Non-Dedicated Transports (e.g., Land Raider) do take up a slot. Because the Pod is considered a Dedicated Transport (not sure if it can be purchased as a non-dedicated), it does not take up a slot.

-Yad

The rules in the book for Transports tell you that it can carry an Independent Character along with the unit inside. The rules for Transport Spore says it may only carry a single unit, and gives no allowance for attaching ICs to that unit. You said it yourself, Codex > Rule Book.

Aduro wrote:The rules in the book for Transports tell you that it can carry an Independent Character along with the unit inside. The rules for Transport Spore says it may only carry a single unit, and gives no allowance for attaching ICs to that unit. You said it yourself, Codex > Rule Book.

I'll need to re-read P.47-48, as well as P.64, but my initial instinct is to disagree with this. I think, and I'll know for sure once I read the entries, is that when an IC joins a unit it is considered a single unit that is occasionally treated as two separate units under specific circumstances. I don't have my rulebook with me so take it for what it's worth.

-Yad

Aduro wrote:The rules in the book for Transports tell you that it can carry an Independent Character along with the unit inside. The rules for Transport Spore says it may only carry a single unit, and gives no allowance for attaching ICs to that unit. You said it yourself, Codex > Rule Book.

Independent characters attached to units are treated for purposes as part of that unit. It doesn't need an allowance, by your logic then you cannot attach a IC to a Space Marine Squad in a Drop Pod. All it states about the spore is its able to carry 20 infantry models. A Alpha Warrior is a independent character that is infantry. He is able to join squads he can join squads in reserve if that unit has a dedicated transport then he can be deployed with the unit per the independent character rules and the dedicated transport rules.


The entry says nothing about a single unit occupying a Spore Pod, what prevents that is that it is a dedicated transport.


It really is that cut and dry.


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Yad wrote:

Aduro wrote:The rules in the book for Transports tell you that it can carry an Independent Character along with the unit inside. The rules for Transport Spore says it may only carry a single unit, and gives no allowance for attaching ICs to that unit. You said it yourself, Codex > Rule Book.

I'll need to re-read P.47-48, as well as P.64, but my initial instinct is to disagree with this. I think, and I'll know for sure once I read the entries, is that when an IC joins a unit it is considered a single unit that is occasionally treated as two separate units under specific circumstances. I don't have my rulebook with me so take it for what it's worth.

-Yad

Your correct I have my rulebook right next to me, the only time it is considered a seperate individual unit is during the assault phase in close combat. At all other times it has to act as part of that unit.

Also its on page 94 as well.

summarized

Similarly the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and or independent characters....

Remember that a dedicated transport can only be deployed and consequently kept in reserve either empty or transporting the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters).


pg 67

Summarized

Dedicated Transports

The only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any indpenedent characters).




The rule that the tyranid codex is not what a dedicated transport is but that a monstrous creature is a dedicated transport


It doesnt create a new type of dedicated tranport it just says this monstrous creature is a dedicated transport.

Drop Pods are Transports, and follow the rules for Transports. The rules for Transports tell you an IC can ride in it. The rules for Transport Spore don't.

ICs joining a unit are still two units. They're two units for Dawn of War deployment. They're given a special exception to the one unit rule in Transports. They're still worth two KPs. They're still separate units in Close Combat. The only times they're treated as one unit is when you shoot at them and when they move/assault together, because the rules tell you that specifically.

The rules for Transport Spore do not give an exception to ICs for the One Unit limit. I would love it if I could drop a brood of Warriors led by an Alpha into the enemy lines, but I can't. The rules don't allow it.

Did you not read what I just posted. Its a dedicated transport and follows the rules for dedicated transport.


The Spore entry does not say any such thing it says what the capacity of the spore pod is not these models only must be in the spore pod.


What prevents that is the dedicated transport rule.

Yes, and the capacity is One Unit of 20 infantry or 1 MC.

Again there is no one unit limit in the entry of spore pod. The spore does not change any rules at all other than that it is a dedicated transport that is a monstrous creature.

There is no such entry in the codex that states; Only units purchasing the spore pod may be deployed with in them.

What prevents that is the rules for DEDICATED TRANSPORTS which state taht only a unit and a ic may be deployed inside of them.

its a unit that can be taken by other units and doesnt occupt a FoC.

it has no armor value.

You cant go back into it.

You dont deploy from it, your placed in BtB

I am pretty sure its not a transport vehicle, dedicated or not. Its just a unit that grants another unit special deployment.

You cannot attach a unit to the unit going into the spore pod, pretty sure the rules state that in the codex.

The independent characters count as part of the unit when joined in reserve it states it clearly in the rulebook. They are not seperate units. It states clearly that a independent character may join a unit in reserve and be deployed including inside that units dedicated transport.

@Blacktoof

Actually it just has the deployment rules for vehicles and makes sure to not you canno assault when it lands, it also is listed and states its taken as a dedicated transport.

@aduro
19 Warriors + 1 Alpha Warrior = 1x unit of 20 models

Hollismason wrote:The independent characters count as part of the unit when joined in reserve it states it clearly in the rulebook. They are not seperate units.

they are seperate entries from the codex however and the Spods are bought per entry in the codex not per unit.

Warriors only go up to unit sizes of 9, but you could do 19 gaunts + Alhpa or 19 Genestealers + Alpha etc...


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blaktoof wrote:

Hollismason wrote:The independent characters count as part of the unit when joined in reserve it states it clearly in the rulebook. They are not seperate units.

they are seperate entries from the codex however and the Spods are bought per entry in the codex not per unit.

Waht

No really I dont understand what you are talking about.

@blaktoof
Really, the same could be said for a Landraider or other transport, and we all understand how those work. Just think of it like a bug "Drop Pod".

This is really being made more complicated than it is. Clearly the intent and the RAW support a spore to be treated like a bug "Drop Pod". Yes it is a MC not a vehicle, but so what?

When an IC joins a unit he is a part of that unit, I fail to understand how someone could claim other wise in this instance. For example if he is killed from shooting would you not consider him as part of the unit for the purposes of a 25% Morale Check? The rules obviously are to prevent 2 SEPARATE units, like a unit of warriors and say another unit of warriors from riding the same pod down.

@hollismason
Thank you I didn't realize that, but the point I was trying to make remains the same and you have helped reinforce it.

@paidinfull

I agree, I'll probably resummarize a list of arguments and submit it when the Adepticon Faq starts up for the Tyranid codex.

Why this is an issue for the 1x IC in the book... I do not know...

He joins a termagaunt or other T3 unit... great when I shoot him he's effectively T3 mean bolters and flamers will ruin him.

He joins a stealer unit and they aren't fearless and can be made to run away

I feel like this is trying to "take something away" from the bugs. He's a normal IC right? Why can't he ride in his homies' ride?

This is definitely going to be one of those "Yes, he can ride in the Spore" GW FAQs.

paidinfull wrote:Why can't he ride in his homies' ride?

Because the rules say so.

If you don't like it, tough.

Aduro's point, and I can almost agree with it is that the Pod rules explicitly reference a single unit of 20 or 1 MC. He is asserting that an IC that joins a unit counts as two units, and hence, may not use a Pod.

I say I almost agree because I think the rules for ICs (leaving and joining units) say that they are one unit that are occasionally treated as two for very specific purposes.

-Yad

paidinfull wrote:@blaktoof
Really, the same could be said for a Landraider or other transport, and we all understand how those work. Just think of it like a bug "Drop Pod".

This is really being made more complicated than it is. Clearly the intent and the RAW support a spore to be treated like a bug "Drop Pod". Yes it is a MC not a vehicle, but so what?

When an IC joins a unit he is a part of that unit, I fail to understand how someone could claim other wise in this instance. For example if he is killed from shooting would you not consider him as part of the unit for the purposes of a 25% Morale Check? The rules obviously are to prevent 2 SEPARATE units, like a unit of warriors and say another unit of warriors from riding the same pod down.

@hollismason
Thank you I didn't realize that, but the point I was trying to make remains the same and you have helped reinforce it.

except the land raider / rhino / razorback entry doesnt specifically state you may not attach a unit or IC to the models in the vehicle. Spod states you may not attach an IC to the unit in the spod...


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Hollismason wrote:Warriors only go up to unit sizes of 9, but you could do 19 gaunts + Alhpa or 19 Genestealers + Alpha etc...


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blaktoof wrote:

Hollismason wrote:The independent characters count as part of the unit when joined in reserve it states it clearly in the rulebook. They are not seperate units.

they are seperate entries from the codex however and the Spods are bought per entry in the codex not per unit.

Waht

No really I dont understand what you are talking about.

I might have smoked crack yesterday when I sat down and read the new nid codex but the Spore pods state they are bought for an entry from the codex as an upgrade, not for units. Since Alpha warrior = 1 entry and any unit of gants /warriors = another entry they cannot be in the same spod as a upgrade. If alpha warrior had a retinue that would of course be different.

blaktoof wrote:

I might have smoked crack yesterday when I sat down and read the new nid codex but the Spore pods state they are bought for an entry from the codex as an upgrade, not for units. Since Alpha warrior = 1 entry and any unit of gants /warriors = another entry they cannot be in the same spod as a upgrade. If alpha warrior had a retinue that would of course be different.

Umm, you missed the bit about Pods are listed as Dedicated Transports and follow all the rules for Dedicated Transports as defined on P.64 (it is 64 right?) In fact, I think you need to re-read the entire section on Dedicated Transports and ICs leaving and joining a unit.

-Yad

@Blacktoof


It doesnt state that all, uh I don't really no how to respond to that. Maybe you should reread the entry or not use a leaked copy. The english dex is pretty clear they are dedicated transports purchased for the unit. They are not a "upgrade". I dont even know what that means.

@Gwar
How's bout dem rules dat say ya ken, so's I ken!
Shucks!

Gwar! wrote:No, he is an IC joined to the Unit. They are still 2 separate units.

So are you stating that if I have Logan in reserves with a unit of wolf guard, he can't enter the board with them in a transport from reserve?

@imweasel
hey now... I didn't say that!

imweasel wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No, he is an IC joined to the Unit. They are still 2 separate units.

So are you stating that if I have Logan in reserves with a unit of wolf guard, he can't enter the board with them in a transport from reserve?

Transport Vehicles allow Ics to be attached to units inside transports.

A Spod is not a Transport Vehicle.

It specifically states it is a dedicated transport. Your argument is becoming circular.

Hollismason wrote:It specifically states it is a dedicated transport. Your argument is becoming circular.

Yes, and? It's a Dedicated Transport, but it is NOT a Transport Vehicle, so it does not follow the rules for Transport Vehicles.

All of the rules I've sited Gwar are rules for dedicated transports, I really dont know how to make it any clearer.





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All of the rules I've sited Gwar are rules for dedicated transports, I really dont know how to make it any clearer.


I mean this is literally a simple logical progression.

IF X then Y.

IF ( Dedicated Transport) then ( Rules for dedicated transport)


So Its a Dedicated Transport(X)


Then (Y)

pg 67
Entry for Dedicated Transports

PG94
Again 4th paragraph, beginning with Remember


The Codex states it is a dedicated transport, there is no rule anywhere stating a monstrous creature cannot be a dedicated transport or that dedicated transports are required to be vehicles.

Let me start by saying I haven't bothered to read the relevant rules specifically, but I just had an idea to point out.

The crux seems to be the fact that the Spod is a "dedicated transport," but is not a "transport vehicle."

If you look at the rules for both "dedicated transport" and "transport vehicle," is there a breakdown that occurs with this distinction? Are their rules in the "dedicated transport" section (in their entirety) that state or imply that the transport is or must be a vehicle for the rules to work? What is the net effect of the Spod not being a "vehicle" while still being a "transport;" ie., what are the specific differences between a "dedicated transport" and a "transport vehicle?"

On page 67 of the rulebook is where you find the rules for dedicated transport that has a big heading that says DEDICATED TRANSPORTS. It does not say, All dedicated transports are vehicles.

Then under page 97 where I quoted you can find more rules regarding dedicated transports specifically.

The dedicated transports specifically have rules to the effect that a indpendent character can join a squad with in them.

The vehicle portion really doesnt matter as the Codex tells us it is a dedicated transport. THere is no rule in the entire game that says " All transports are vehicles"

Agreed, I think Gwar!'s point regarding 'a Dedicated Transport is not a Transport Vehicle' is a red herring, and has no bearing on this issue.

Aduro's point on the other hand is much more relevant. It is a similar issue with the deployment confusion that was surrounding DoW missions. Does the Pod specifically say that it may only transport one unit? If so, do you count a unit that has been joined by an Character as two or one? If it's two then I don't see how it may use a Pod (as the Pod rules are written).

My take, after reading through P.47-48, is that such a unit counts as one. Subsequently throughout the game there are instances where this unit is treated as two separate units.

-Yad

Well that and the argument about transport vehicles is kind of pointless as there are rules at other points in the rulebook specifically page 94 under Mission Special rules that give specific rules about Dedicated transports and state as such a independent character can join.

Remember, that a dedicated transport can only be deployed, and consequently can only be kept in reserve, either empty or transporting the unit it was selected with( plus any independent characters).

This is not in the vehicle section its under mission special rules, not that it matters as the Tyranid Codex tells us it is a dedicated transport and that comes back to the if X then Y.

Now on to the argument of "single" unit.

It doesn't say that it says " a unit of 20 models or a MC."

If I have 9 Terminators and 1 Librarian joined taht is a unit of 10 models. It is not 2 units one being 9 and 1 being 1. This is the exception that is made for independent characters. They count toward the units total number.

Hollismason wrote:On page 67 of the rulebook is where you find the rules for dedicated transport that has a big heading that says DEDICATED TRANSPORTS. It does not say, All dedicated transports are vehicles.

The question I had primarily has to do with how embarking and how squads can use them and such are worded. Doe the rules in dedicated transports refer back to the regular vehicle rules, or are they self contained?

If the rules refer back to the vehicle rules, then Gwar!'s position might have more merit.

They don't they just talk about who can go inside a dedicated transport. It doesn't matter anyway because the specific rules of the spore pod would override that anyway.

there are no restrictions on the spore pods capacity other than a unit of 20 models or 1 monstrous creature.

The rules under mission rules are not even in the vehicle section as well.


Basically there are two sections of the BRB that deal with Dedicated Transports both have nothing to do with Transports at all.

There is your answer then, a single UNIT of 20 or 1 MC. I see nothing on page 48 that states they form one single unit.

Right, when an IC joins a unit he is "a part" of that single unit.

paidinfull wrote:Right, when an IC joins a unit he is "a part" of that single unit.

No, he is joined to the unit. It is still 2 units.

That is so wrong on so many different levels it's astonishing.
You have this idea of "Salt and Sand" being two separate units, but if you pick them up you have a single unit comprised of two parts. A person is comprised of multiple separate parts, a head, a body, two arms, and two legs, etc. A person is considered singular as it is a sum of it's parts, or in this case one unit. You wouldn't say that a tactical squad comprised of a sgt, a meltgunner, and 3 regular marines is considered 3 or 5 units because they are all separate or different parts. It's one unit. When an IC joins a unit, they are now one unit.
That's not even RAW arguing... it's just... just common sense. 1+1 = 2, 2 is a single unit comprised of 2 parts: 1 & 1. They aren't separate while they are joined.
You're really just arguing for the sake of arguing now.
A spore is a transport so the following applies to it. Whether it's a vehicle or an MC does not matter. Notice how the RAW is "a transport", so it applies to any variant of transport, be it monkey, pontoon boat, moped, or rickshaw

Now there seems to be some confusion over what a unit is, well here is what a unit is as described by the BRB

So a unit is defined as several models that fight as a group, and since the IC is a part of that unit, he is considered for all intents and purposes as that unit, unless other rules change that. An IC has separate rules regarding how they act during the course of the game and in CC, but there is only one unit there.


An Alpha warrior can join any unit(Not a MC), so long as the number of models does not exceed 20, and ride in a Mycetic Spore because it is considered a transport.

paidinfull wrote:That is so wrong on so many different levels it's astonishing.
You have this idea of "Salt and Sand" being two separate units, but if you pick them up you have a single unit comprised of two parts. A person is comprised of multiple separate parts, a head, a body, two arms, and two legs, etc. A person is considered singular as it is a sum of it's parts, or in this case one unit. You wouldn't say that a tactical squad comprised of a sgt, a meltgunner, and 3 regular marines is considered 3 or 5 units because they are all separate or different parts. It's one unit. When an IC joins a unit, they are now one unit.
That's not even RAW arguing... it's just... just common sense. 1+1 = 2, 2 is a single unit comprised of 2 parts: 1 & 1. They aren't separate while they are joined.
You're really just arguing for the sake of arguing now.
A spore is a transport so the following applies to it. Whether it's a vehicle or an MC does not matter. Notice how the RAW is "a transport", so it applies to any variant of transport, be it monkey, pontoon boat, moped, or rickshaw

Now there seems to be some confusion over what a unit is, well here is what a unit is as described by the BRB

So a unit is defined as several models that fight as a group, and since the IC is a part of that unit, he is considered for all intents and purposes as that unit, unless other rules change that. An IC has separate rules regarding how they act during the course of the game and in CC, but there is only one unit there.


An Alpha warrior can join any unit(Not a MC), so long as the number of models does not exceed 20, and ride in a Mycetic Spore because it is considered a transport.

I am a newb still learning the rules. With what I read here, I would say the Alpha Warrior can join any unit not exceeding 20 models. Now the quesiton is, can an Alpha Warrior join gaunt or gants? If not then the point is moot about the 20 model count. Also can Warriors take a Spod?

One thing to mention though, if you are going to post what you want us to read (wich I think is great by the way) you should put in page numbers so we can verify that you are in fact using the latest rules book or codex.

@davor
Yes an Alpha Warrior, because he is an IC can join any unit, that doesn't explicitly have a rule saying an IC cannot join them.

#page numbers
I hear ya but honestly, I've already provided the pertinent quote.

From my previous experience on the board I find that most discussions end up with someone simply not providing any quotes or references or support to their claims, what so ever and just continue saying "No because Gwar says so'. I feel that in the event someone doesn't agree with what I've posted they should take the time, do the leg work themselves and look up any rules that prove what I've provided wrong.

I still see no rule stating an attached IC and the squad are a single unit.

InquisitorFabius wrote:I still see no rule stating an attached IC and the squad are a single unit.

Any reference to an IC being "a part of a unit" clearly proves that an IC + squad = a unit.

If an IC + Squad were not considered a unit then an IC could never be "a part"of the unit.

Guess what, just an IC is a unit also.

Gwar! wrote:

paidinfull wrote:Right, when an IC joins a unit he is "a part" of that single unit.

No, he is joined to the unit. It is still 2 units.

Only during Close Combat, and only because it specifically states so. Both the definition of a unit and the rules for joining an IC indicate it becomes a single unit. In fact read the Close Combat section, final sentence of the second paragraph under "Independent Characters & Assaults" where it states:

BRB page 49 wrote:Once all attacks have been resolved, these characters are once against treated as normal members of the unit the y have joned

So, the English definition of "joined" requires they are one unit, and the rules state they are "normal members of the unit" - not a seperate unit at all.

On this one I believe you are incorrect, and the Alpha Nid can in fact join a unit of gaunts or warriors in a pod.

Hrm...I think we see some of the issue in Paid's text quote.

The transport rule states that it may carry "a single infantry unit and/or any number of independent characters...."

The Spod rules just say "a unit of 20 models or a Monstrous Creature."

If an IC (or multible IC's) joined to a unit were to be considered a single unit for the purpose of boarding a transport, why would they need to specify that IC's can ride with (the "and/or") another unit, and why did they not make that specification in the Spod rules?

Saldiven wrote:Hrm...I think we see some of the issue in Paid's text quote.

Gwars! point in relation to those is that the posted rules are about Transport Vehicles.

FYI.

The Spods are not Transport Vehicles.

Not saying that I agree, but the image leaves out the heading of the section.

I think paidinfull proved his argument pretty well. Now I think to the people who disaprove what paidinfull have said is to show (wich seems like alot of work, so we can see how much he strongly agrees to what he has said) or if you don't want to do that, tell us the page, paragraph and what book to prove your point.

If this was a court of law, paidinfull might win.

They did they made it a dedicated transport which provides the rules for it. The only "rules" applying to the Pod are a reiteration / clarification of disembarking.

@Saldiven

There doesn't need to be a specification made because it has already been made that it is a dedicated transport.

The best way I would say it is ; the tyranid codex doesnt say what a monstrous creature is you have to reference the basic rule book.

The Tyranid Codex states it is a Dedicated Transport ; refer to the rulebook.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
edit:

Also, Paindful did make a damn good argument.

I believe Gwar is right, there is a distinction between transport vehicles and dedicated transports. Namely that now we have some kind of dedicated transport that is not also a transport vehicle.

Hollismason wrote:
The Tyranid Codex states it is a Dedicated Transport ; refer to the rulebook.

So it is a vehicle?
See page 67, "Dedicated Transports".

All ducks have bills, a chicken has a bill there for it is a duck does not make a convincing argument.

It's a monstrous creature that is also a dedicated transport.

I cant believe this went on for 3 pages....... its pretty obvious that the spore pod is a Drop-Pod with wounds instead of armor. Are "certain people" so set on twisting the rules that work into something that will just cause arguments until GW has to put out another Errata to shut them up.

The facts have been shown.....RAI & RAW: the S-Pod is a freaking Drop-pod..........now play your games.

paidinfull wrote:
So a unit is defined as several models that fight as a group, and since the IC is a part of that unit, he is considered for all intents and purposes as that unit, unless other rules change that. An IC has separate rules regarding how they act during the course of the game and in CC, but there is only one unit there.

Honestly, I don't care who's right and wrong in this debate, however...

An independent character joins a unit, it does not necessarily say he becomes a part of that unit. For your example of the human body... when I put on mittens those mittens join my body, but they do not become a part of me. Or a pacemaker, if you want something a little more... attached. I guess you could argue that a prosthesis is a part of you, but I think most people would say that it is simply joined to you, but you are still two separate things.

Now, in regards to the rules. I've seen a number of locations where people say that cc is the only place that ICs act differently. That is actually not the case. They have special rules regarding joining and leaving units. This means that, in the movement phase, even though they are a part of the unit, they can act independently of it. A unit may never leave coherency. However, an IC must leave coherency with the unit in order to separate off.

What's more, there are other special rules for ICs besides just movement and assault. When an IC joins a unit that has different special rules, those special rules may or may not be conferred one way or the other. Look at all the SW questions dealing with Saga of the Hunter and Wolf Scouts. When an IC joins a unit, he most definitely has many rules that continue to govern him independently of said unit.

I don't see (and that doesn't mean that they do not exist) any rules that say that an IC actually becomes a part of the unit.

But by paidinfull's own admission via rulebook quote, the 40k Gods have deemed it necessary to say that a transport can carry a single unit "and/or any number of ICs." Why would they need to say this if, in fact, the two became one unit? Wouldn't it be obvious from the wording that "one unit" that the IC can be in the transport, given that as soon as he joins a unit they become one unit?

Also, I don't see anything in the posted definition of units that says that an IC that has joined a unit now count as one unit.

I see it like this: We know that ICs can join a unit, but that doesn't say "becomes part of." The IC maintains their unique rules that function during every turn (special rules), movement (for joining and leaving), and assault. The unit rules themselves don't mention anything about ICs, at least as far as has been posted. The rulebook itself adds that a single unit AND ICs can be inside of a transport, which implies that they are NOT one unit, otherwise why would it need to be said?

But then again... I see where it says that multiple ICs can join a unit and form a multi-character unit. In this case, it would seem that you are having multiple ICs that create one unit.

In summary, my post may be unclear, but I think we've got multiple definitions of the word unit going on.

DJ Illuminati wrote:I cant believe this went on for 3 pages....... its pretty obvious that the spore pod is a Drop-Pod with wounds instead of armor. Are "certain people" so set on twisting the rules that work into something that will just cause arguments until GW has to put out another Errata to shut them up.

The facts have been shown.....RAI & RAW: the S-Pod is a freaking Drop-pod..........now play your games.

i thought drop pods could only carry 12 models, not 20. And they have av 12 open topped, not feth gobs of wounds.

Eidolon wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:I cant believe this went on for 3 pages....... its pretty obvious that the spore pod is a Drop-Pod with wounds instead of armor. Are "certain people" so set on twisting the rules that work into something that will just cause arguments until GW has to put out another Errata to shut them up.

The facts have been shown.....RAI & RAW: the S-Pod is a freaking Drop-pod..........now play your games.

i thought drop pods could only carry 12 models, not 20. And they have av 12 open topped, not feth gobs of wounds.

So did I, but hey, don't let RULES get in the way of playing your game!

Saldiven wrote:
If an IC (or multible IC's) joined to a unit were to be considered a single unit for the purpose of boarding a transport, why would they need to specify that IC's can ride with (the "and/or") another unit, and why did they not make that specification in the Spod rules?

Nobody has answered this question yet.

@Lucidicide
While I appreciate your comments, I honestly have to admit that anyone confused about what "joining" two things means, is well beyond the tenets of YMTC. We are not supposed to post definitions of words, but arguing the semantics of what the word "join" is, is also outside of the tenets of YMTC.

When something "joins" something, it is by definition becoming a part of what it has been united with, or joined.

Semantic arguments for "what does joined mean?" are not permitted in YMTC.

The line "While an IC is a part of unit," is more than adequate to claim that the act of "joining" clearly states that an IC + unit = a unit. How that can even be argued is well beyond my patience.

Whether or not the section in question refers to transport vehicles or transport rickshaws or transport monstrous creatures is also not applicable to RAW. By RAW, "a transport may carry a single infantry unit and/or IC". The inclusion of and/or does not mean that when considering IC + squad are one unit it's to clearly specify the permissions of the Transport.

A transport may carry:
- a single infantry unit
- any number of ICs

Trying to find an exception in this instance that somehow "a unit is not a unit" is beyond ridiculous. Once an IC is joined to a single infantry unit it is considered to be a single infantry unit.

Saldiven wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
If an IC (or multible IC's) joined to a unit were to be considered a single unit for the purpose of boarding a transport, why would they need to specify that IC's can ride with (the "and/or") another unit, and why did they not make that specification in the Spod rules?

Nobody has answered this question yet.

They didnt make that distinction in the spore pod rules because it is not legal to put an alpha warrior in a pod with other dudes.

paidinfull wrote:When something "joins" something, it is by definition becoming a part of what it has been united with, or joined.

Take a hypothetical bar/pub/nightclub [The Spod]. They only groups of people wearing red jumpers inside [A Single Unit]. If I Join a group of people wearing red jumpers, but I am wearing as blue one [A single unit with another single unit joined to it], are we allowed inside?

Saldiven wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
If an IC (or multible IC's) joined to a unit were to be considered a single unit for the purpose of boarding a transport, why would they need to specify that IC's can ride with (the "and/or") another unit, and why did they not make that specification in the Spod rules?

Nobody has answered this question yet.

That is because the sentence is structured so that it covers all bases including a single infantry unit, which is what happens when an IC joins a unit you have a single infantry unit, and or any number of ICs, meaning if I am somehow able to take 20 ICs all 20 could ride in the transport with 20 model capacity.

You're looking for ways to TWIST that somehow an IC + squad != a unit, which is just plain wrong.
The IC has JOINED the unit, so they are considered united, or ONE unit.


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Gwar! wrote:

paidinfull wrote:When something "joins" something, it is by definition becoming a part of what it has been united with, or joined.

Take a hypothetical bar/pub/nightclub [The Spod]. They only groups of people wearing red jumpers inside [A Single Unit]. If I Join a group of people wearing red jumpers, but I am wearing as blue one [A single unit with another single unit joined to it], are we allowed inside?

There is no distinction in the Spore rules that say Blue or Red, IC or Not, it is simply a unit of 20, the number being the qualifying factor.
19+1 = 20

paidinfull wrote:@Lucidicide
While I appreciate your comments, I honestly have to admit that anyone confused about what "joining" two things means, is well beyond the tenets of YMTC. We are not supposed to post definitions of words, but arguing the semantics of what the word "join" is, is also outside of the tenets of YMTC.

When something "joins" something, it is by definition becoming a part of what it has been united with, or joined.

Semantic arguments for "what does joined mean?" are not permitted in YMTC.

A fair amount of this is questionable, at best.

Eidolon wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:I cant believe this went on for 3 pages....... its pretty obvious that the spore pod is a Drop-Pod with wounds instead of armor. Are "certain people" so set on twisting the rules that work into something that will just cause arguments until GW has to put out another Errata to shut them up.

The facts have been shown.....RAI & RAW: the S-Pod is a freaking Drop-pod..........now play your games.

i thought drop pods could only carry 12 models, not 20. And they have av 12 open topped, not feth gobs of wounds.

Cant see the forest for all the trees.........

Space wolf drop pods hold 10 models......are they no longer drop pods?

The Landraider Crusader holds more than a standard Landraider and has completely different weapons, is it no longer a Landraider?

The point I was making was how it uses the same general rules and functions the same way as a drop pod. Minor details such as max-load, weapons, and armor or lack of (wounds), are not connected to how the unit functions as a transport.

DJ Illuminati wrote:

Eidolon wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:I cant believe this went on for 3 pages....... its pretty obvious that the spore pod is a Drop-Pod with wounds instead of armor. Are "certain people" so set on twisting the rules that work into something that will just cause arguments until GW has to put out another Errata to shut them up.

The facts have been shown.....RAI & RAW: the S-Pod is a freaking Drop-pod..........now play your games.

i thought drop pods could only carry 12 models, not 20. And they have av 12 open topped, not feth gobs of wounds.

Cant see the forest for all the trees.........

had to stop reading here, a forest is nothing but a collection of trees. A set number for example. Given any piece of land of a certain size, and with a certain minimum amount of trees on it in a certain minimum density and you have a forest.

Gwar! wrote:

paidinfull wrote:When something "joins" something, it is by definition becoming a part of what it has been united with, or joined.

Take a hypothetical bar/pub/nightclub [The Spod]. They only groups of people wearing red jumpers inside [A Single Unit]. If I Join a group of people wearing red jumpers, but I am wearing as blue one [A single unit with another single unit joined to it], are we allowed inside?

The same group of Red jumpers and the one blue jumper get drunk and trash the place, the cops are called......the Paddy Wagon holds all of the drunken group, not just the red jumpers. The rowdy group (red+1 Blue) are all taken to jail as one group.

This thread is getting way off topic

Eidolon wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:

Eidolon wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:I cant believe this went on for 3 pages....... its pretty obvious that the spore pod is a Drop-Pod with wounds instead of armor. Are "certain people" so set on twisting the rules that work into something that will just cause arguments until GW has to put out another Errata to shut them up.

The facts have been shown.....RAI & RAW: the S-Pod is a freaking Drop-pod..........now play your games.

i thought drop pods could only carry 12 models, not 20. And they have av 12 open topped, not feth gobs of wounds.

Cant see the forest for all the trees.........

had to stop reading here, a forest is nothing but a collection of trees. A set number for example. Given any piece of land of a certain size, and with a certain minimum amount of trees on it in a certain minimum density and you have a forest.

Feel free to read the rest..... it makes your statement all the more accurate

First, I would like to state that I'd be perfectly ok with letting any of my friends put an IC in a spore pod unless there was something blatantly obvious that tells me otherwise. I don't think this is obvious one way or the other. I would prefer to let my friends have fun than not see an Alpha Warrior near my models.

Second, I am not making a semantic argument. My point was that I don't see anywhere in the rules where it actually says a unit joined by an IC counts as one unit. *It might.* But I don't see it. I did not discuss what joined means, I pointed out the distinction between "join" and "is the same as." I think that the line you bring up, that of "While an IC is a part of unit" is telling, along with the fact that it refers to multiple ICs hanging out together as a "multi-character unit." I also see *other* things in the rulebook that are leading to the confusion, such as a Dedicated Transport section being listed under the subsection of vehicles.

Third, I understand your impatience with the argument and the fact that you find this ridiculous. There are some good reasons for that. However, here we both are on a forum about arguing the rules... arguing the rules. If it is really cut and dry, you wouldn't feel the need to argue it. And maybe you're at that point, and that's cool.

So, that said. I think you're *probably* right. However, it is an issue that I think deserves some of the discussion it's getting because of some of the inconsistencies. I think this topic is suffering from the dual discussion of dedicated transport vs transport vehicle *and* the discussion of ICs and whether or not they form one unit. I am comfortable, at this point, saying that ICs are a part of a unit that they join at least as far as transports are concerned.

DJ Illuminati wrote:Space wolf drop pods hold 10 models......are they no longer drop pods?

The Landraider Crusader holds more than a standard Landraider and has completely different weapons, is it no longer a Landraider?

The point I was making was how it uses the same general rules and functions the same way as a drop pod. Minor details such as max-load, weapons, and armor or lack of (wounds), are not connected to how the unit functions as a transport.

No, they are Space Wolf Drop Pods.
No, they are Land Raider Crusaders

I don't get your point?

Gwar! wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:Space wolf drop pods hold 10 models......are they no longer drop pods?

The Landraider Crusader holds more than a standard Landraider and has completely different weapons, is it no longer a Landraider?

The point I was making was how it uses the same general rules and functions the same way as a drop pod. Minor details such as max-load, weapons, and armor or lack of (wounds), are not connected to how the unit functions as a transport.

No, they are Space Wolf Drop Pods.
No, they are Land Raider Crusaders

I don't get your point?

Your being anti semantic gwar, you rules NAZI

@lucidide
Thank you for the well thought out response.

Why do you feel there is a case FOR when an IC joins a unit, the IC + squad are not considered a single unit?

My stance is the act of joining is to take multiple parts and make them one. So by saying in the rules, "the IC joined the unit", it is in fact saying they are now one unit. That is why I do not feel it needs to explicitly state they are a unit, because it just did.

All the discussion about joining, is really what is weirding me out, if the IC and the squad were NOT one unit, when I fired my weapons during the shooting phase from one unit to another, I would be able to always fire at an IC because he would be considered a "separate" unit as Gwar and others are arguing.

Gwar! wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:Space wolf drop pods hold 10 models......are they no longer drop pods?

The Landraider Crusader holds more than a standard Landraider and has completely different weapons, is it no longer a Landraider?

The point I was making was how it uses the same general rules and functions the same way as a drop pod. Minor details such as max-load, weapons, and armor or lack of (wounds), are not connected to how the unit functions as a transport.

No, they are Space Wolf Drop Pods.
No, they are Land Raider Crusaders

I don't get your point?

Oh nooeesss...... just like back when we argued about if a Leman Russ Battle tank is the same as a Leman Russ Squadron of just 1, as per the Witch Hunter codex........and you were proven wrong with the Errata that came out........I wounder if this is a similar situation.......

DJ Illuminati wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:Space wolf drop pods hold 10 models......are they no longer drop pods?

The Landraider Crusader holds more than a standard Landraider and has completely different weapons, is it no longer a Landraider?

The point I was making was how it uses the same general rules and functions the same way as a drop pod. Minor details such as max-load, weapons, and armor or lack of (wounds), are not connected to how the unit functions as a transport.

No, they are Space Wolf Drop Pods.
No, they are Land Raider Crusaders

I don't get your point?

Oh nooeesss...... just like back when we argued about if a Leman Russ Battle tank is the same as a Leman Russ Squadron of just 1, as per the Witch Hunter codex........and you were proven wrong with the Errata that came out........I wounder if this is a similar situation.......

and you were proven wrong with the Errata that came out

The errata cannot prove or disprove anything, its simply a disagreement with Gwar on GWs part. Which as they have repeatedly demonstrated, especially since Jervis "I hate tournaments" Johnson took over they are incapable of making a balanced, or clear rules set. GW has more authority but is not necessarily right.

@paidinfull
I actually think that they both are and aren't part of the same unit, and I *know* that is an annoying argument to make and I apologize in advance, haha.

Shooting at ICs: "Independent characters that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit and so may not be picked out as targets." Pg 49. And continuing later in the same section: "Independent characters that have not joined a unit can be targeted as normal, being separate units."

So, clearly an IC is a unit on its own. It says that the IC is "considered part of" a unit that it has joined. I find it incredibly likely that when an IC joins a unit that are considered one unit for many purposes -- and those purposes are outlined in the rules. However, these rules strike me as exception-based rules *because* of the fact that ICs are units in their own rights. You cannot target an IC that has joined a unit because of the specific rules that say that ICs that have joined a unit begin to function differently. If, on some level, they were simply one unit, they would not necessarily need to specify the rule above. Because of this, it seems like an exception to normal targeting, and implies to me that they remain two units.

That is where my case for them being two units comes in. But you have your own case, and being "considered part of" is a pretty big deal in that regard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DJ Illuminati wrote:

Oh nooeesss...... just like back when we argued about if a Leman Russ Battle tank is the same as a Leman Russ Squadron of just 1, as per the Witch Hunter codex........and you were proven wrong with the Errata that came out........I wounder if this is a similar situation.......

DJ Illuminati, I feel you are taking this discussion way off track. Errata cannot prove anything wrong. It is a *rules change*. In effect, it might make more sense to say that the errata proved Gwar! right (even though I don't even know what we're talking about), and that GW didn't like that so they changed it.

And your earlier argument that they follow the same rules as a drop pod so treat them accordingly... all infantry follow the same general rules, too. Does that mean that my IG get rules that apply to SMs such as ATSKNF? You cannot, in logic, apply generals to specifics. Airplanes can fly. Cockpits cannot. Spore pods may follow rules for dedicated transports, but that does *not* mean they act like a completely different thing, no matter how many similarities they share.

Eidolon wrote:

The errata cannot prove or disprove anything, its simply a disagreement with Gwar on GWs part. Which as they have repeatedly demonstrated, especially since Jervis "I hate tournaments" Johnson took over they are incapable of making a balanced, or clear rules set. GW has more authority but is not necessarily right.

With that kind of logic I can assume that Codexs are simply a disagreement with Gwar on GW's part..........

If GW has more authority than Gwar, and they are the ones that made the game, I can conclude that GW is right and we should follow their rules (both RAW and RAI)

If Gwar wants to be undisputed "lord of all rules", than may I suggest that he create his own game and let us nit-pic his product for years at a time and complain about how sloppy he put it together.

This fun little banter we are having now is why Mods tend to get called into these threads to shut them down.

Gwar has but a single viewpoint on an issue no matter how much is proven to him, and I fully believe that the game was ment to be played for fun, and will full argue to defend anyone that has a reasonable RAI view. Like clash of the titans.........


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lucidicide wrote:
DJ Illuminati, I feel you are taking this discussion way off track. Errata cannot prove anything wrong. It is a *rules change*. In effect, it might make more sense to say that the errata proved Gwar! right (even though I don't even know what we're talking about), and that GW didn't like that so they changed it.

And your earlier argument that they follow the same rules as a drop pod so treat them accordingly... all infantry follow the same general rules, too. Does that mean that my IG get rules that apply to SMs such as ATSKNF? You cannot, in logic, apply generals to specifics. Airplanes can fly. Cockpits cannot. Spore pods may follow rules for dedicated transports, but that does *not* mean they act like a completely different thing, no matter how many similarities they share.

A rules change or clarification? An errata is nothing more than a statement of an error and its correction. Poorly written rules are a very common form of error on GWs part.

I do agree with you that you cannot apply general to specific, and thus my example may be a little off, however I still maintain that the simularity seems to be intentional as opposed to the argument that the rules "must" be completely different simply because it has wounds instead of an Armor value.

Lucidicide - see the quote i posted ont eh previous page, which states that ICs become just a normal member of the unit once all attacks have been made.

The other glaring error in this whole argument is that a unit of less than 20 models can't have a Spode? Thats how it looks from all of the single unit that must be 20 or 1 MC arguments go. That would also be really dumb.

"Sorry sir, you only have 19 models in that unit no spod for you."

"But I don't ahve the extra 6 points for another hormy!"

"Sorry, dem da rules. But hey with out dat pod you gets more points. So you got enough now!"

DJ Illuminati wrote:
A rules change or clarification? An errata is nothing more than a statement of an error and its correction. Poorly written rules are a very common form of error on GWs part.

If the errata was an error, and Gwar! was in error... does that make a right? In either case, I think the issue would be settled if we know if it was a rules change or a clarification. I certainly don't know because I don't even know what argument we're talking about, but if you do, more power to you.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Lucidicide - see the quote i posted on the previous page, which states that ICs become just a normal member of the unit once all attacks have been made.

I think this is a good point. Honestly, I'd just read what you quoted last time and didn't read the rule itself. I think that, in terms of whether ICs are a part of a unit (rather than simply being attached) and therefore considered "one unit", the case is definitely stronger on the "one unit" side. Between this point in the rulebook and paidinfull's points, I think there are enough references to them being treated as one unit/a part of the unit that it's safe to say that they are, for the purposes of transport capacity, one unit.

And without a Nid codex, I'm not going to touch on the specific Spore Pod debate.

Thanks everyone, you've convinced me. Haha.

Strimen - that is not correct, the codex (where models CAN be above 20) includes "20 or less"

Ok guys remember I am still a newb so please bear with me. I don't have the skills like paysinfull, so I have to write it out. I am on page 48 BRB. First words in the second paragraph "In order to join a unit," See it says to join a unit. To me that is the IC becoming one with a unit so it's One unit not two units.

Also, if you keep reading in the bullets on page 48 right side it says " Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit , by being deployed in coherncy with them."

So to me, that mean an IC and another unit when joined become One unit. So if an Alpha Warrior joins 19 gaunts, it becomes a unit with 20 models.

No if I made a mistake here, please show me where I made a mistake.

Davor wrote:No if I made a mistake here, please show me where I made a mistake.

At no point does it say "they become 1 unit".

Actually it does - seem my rules quote. You cannot "go back" to being a normal member of a unit if you don't start off being a normal member prior to the assault phase...

They still arent the same unit on force organization chart. And what is meant by unit here? Since pods come in at the start of the game I would assume that in terms of unit they mean one force org unit, not game unit.

Judging by my past experiences reading YMTC... I am going to assume the argument here is that being "treated as" is not the same as being. Gwar! is right when he says that there are no points where it says they become one unit. In a sense, there would be a major issue if it was ever the case. Units have many specific rules that ICs do not follow, and therefore the IC must always be treated differently.

This is why I think the best argument is that they are one unit for certain purposes (at the very least, targeting them or assaulting them), but they are two units for other purposes. The BRB is not clear on this issue. The rulebook only ever makes references to "joined" "considered part of" and "treated as." It never says that they are one unit, which is why this discussion continues. There is no definitive clarity in the book.

I think instead, you have to go with what the rulebook is giving you. In this case, there is nothing definitive saying that they are one unit. Generally, without something saying they are (when we have so many specific rules governing ICs, you'd think they'd mention it), it is better to assume they are not. However, as this argument related to the Spore Pod which apparently says "one unit", I think the IC exception that is generally given to transports does apply, and thus you can get an IC in a Spore Pod.

And this argument seems to come down to whether the Spore Pod is treated like all other transports, which happen to be vehicles. If this discussion could be settled (i.e. do spore pods allow ICs to join), it would settle the issue. The only reason the question of one unit is coming up is because Nids don't have vehicles.

As stated before, I'm hesitant to say that ICs do become "one unit" as is being argued. That said, I am comfortable saying that, for the purposes of transport capacity, they function *as if* they are one unit. At this point, it might be better to argue the transport problem more than the one unit problem.

The argument that [no where does it say "they become one unit"] is completely ignoring the statement that an IC "joins" a squad. That is more than enough of a statement that the units are indeed one, because when you join one part, with another part, you do not have two separate parts... you have one. That does not mean that later they can't be separated but while they are "joined", they are one.

That argument is also ignoring the clear RAW of statements like "while an IC is part of a unit", if they aren't one, how can an IC be "a part of a unit"?

I'm sorry but that argument holds no substance in this context.

Eidolon wrote:They still arent the same unit on force organization chart. And what is meant by unit here? Since pods come in at the start of the game I would assume that in terms of unit they mean one force org unit, not game unit.

FOC *selection* is entirely seperate to *unit* - see IG, who can have 1 FOC *selection* that is many units.

Selection /= unit

Lucidicide - Except they *do* say they are one unit - if something "goes back to being a normal member of the unit" it can only be a single unit. Unless you are somehow claiming you can have 2 units that are somehow normal members of each?

DJ Illuminati wrote:

Oh nooeesss...... just like back when we argued about if a Leman Russ Battle tank is the same as a Leman Russ Squadron of just 1, as per the Witch Hunter codex........and you were proven wrong with the Errata that came out........I wounder if this is a similar situation.......

Um...if he were wrong, there would have been no need for an errata.

Saldiven wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:

Oh nooeesss...... just like back when we argued about if a Leman Russ Battle tank is the same as a Leman Russ Squadron of just 1, as per the Witch Hunter codex........and you were proven wrong with the Errata that came out........I wounder if this is a similar situation.......

Um...if he were wrong, there would have been no need for an errata.

Ya know, I was just thinking that

I think arguing about whether or not they become a single unit is not only unanswerable, but also doesn't answer the question.

We know for sure that the rules tell us that an IC can deploy inside a dedicated transport with the unit that bought the transport. Whether they are one unit or two units doesn't matter: they can deploy together.

We also know for sure that all the rules for dedicated transports only describe vehicles.

The Tyranid codex tells us that a spod is a dedicated transport, and also tells us that it's not a vehicle.

So the question really is, do the "dedicated transport" rules in the "transport vehicle" section on page 67 apply to dedicated transports that are not vehicles?

If you decide that the dedicated transport rules apply to spods even though they're not vehicles, then the IC can deploy in spods with the unit, the spod can only be used by the unit that bought it as a transport, and spods don't count on the FOC chart. Looks like the majority on this thread are arguing this position.

If you decide that the dedicated transport rules only apply to transports that are vehicles, then the IC can't deploy with the unit in the spod, the spod can be used by anybody to deploy, and spods count on the FOC chart. Gwar! is the one who is primarily arguing this position.

Personally I'm inclined to say that the general rules for dedicated transports apply to spods, even though they are not vehicles, because they are still dedicated transports. The codex is specifying a spod as a exceptional sub-category of the general category of dedicated transports, and the major thing that's different about spods is they aren't vehicles. But that's just an opinion.

What about on page 67? If IC and a unit are in the same vehicle, they are automatically joined. So an Alpha Warrior and 19 gants in a Spore pod are joined as a single unit then.

Am I reading something wrong here?

I can't believe this is still going.

Mycetic Spores are Dedicated Transports. This is utterly undeniable.

Simply follow the rules for dedicated transports.
This points us to, and therefore includes, the rules for transport vehicles.

*Snip*
"But it isn't a vehicle!" I can hear you rage.
Guess what? It doesn't matter!
The rules tells us to use a certain set of rules in regards to Mycetic Spores.
JUST.....DO.....SO.
*Snip*

Happily this won't be a problem since everything written there, that hinges on being a vehicle,....isn't relevant to a Mycetic Spore.
All talk of Fire points, Access points and Effects of Damage Results On Passengers is completely and utterly irrelevant as they will never be an issue.

Whats next?

ICs?

ICs become a complete and indistinguishable part of a joined unit for transport purposes.

Are you going to say that a Chaplain in Terminator Armour is a seperate unit for transport purposes from the 5 Terminators whose squad he has joined?

Because that would mean they (as a squad) wouldn't be able to embark in, say a Land Raider as only a single squad can be embarked in a single transport at any time (the first idiot that starts to bring up Apocalypse and Super Heavies gets a swift kick in the nuts).

Who gives a flying....bird....whether the IC can be singled out in close combat or not! For transport purposes they (the squad and any joined IC) count as a single unit.

*Snip*
"Well, the rules state that a single unit and/or any attached IC can be transported".
Yes, and guess what....again?
Those are the rules we must follow.
*Snip*

We must follow all the rules in the Transport Vehicle with the exception of;
A) Specific exceptions mentioned in the codex and
B) the limitations imposed on us by the Dedicated Transport section of the rules.

Steelmage99 wrote:
words words words
(the first idiot that starts to bring up Apocalypse and Super Heavies gets a swift kick in the nuts).
words words words

But apocalypse is a completely valid argument as it is part of the 40k ruleset

Eidolon wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:
words words words
(the first idiot that starts to bring up Apocalypse and Super Heavies gets a swift kick in the nuts).
words words words

But apocalypse is a completely valid argument as it is part of the 40k ruleset

But it's a different set of game rules. In a regular 40K game can you have gargantuen creatures? No because they are not in a 40K codex. Can you use those big huge blast templates? No because we are not using Apocalypse rules.

I think he was joking.

At least I hope he was.

Oh, and Eidolon? *Swish thunk!*

Its not a different set of game rules, its an expansion.
Lets see what changes
no force org
one mission
big critters allowed. And you can use big things in regular games, like at adepticon.

Basically people want to keep some of the rules for dedicated transport ,but ignore the rests "because its not a vehicle".

that's exactly the argument, it states its a dedicated transport it follows the rules for dedicated transport. you do not get to pick and choose which rules it follows.

This is inherently wrong on many levels.

It doesn't matter if you have 2 alpha warriors and 18 gaunts and a Spore pod.

The fact is the dedicated transport rules allow a exception for ICs to be inside and joined to another unit with in them.


That's it.


If you are going to argue that it follows some but not all of the rules for dedicated transports then i am going to argue that it takes up an FOC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So Gwar why does it not take up an FOC?

Flavius Infernus wrote:I think arguing about whether or not they become a single unit is not only unanswerable, but also doesn't answer the question.

This.

Also, thanks everyone who engaged in the debate on this in a constructive manner.

@nosferatu1001
I take your point. However, ICs are not normal members of the unit, as evidenced by their special rules that allow them to do things like walk away from the unit. I'm not arguing that you're incorrect, rather that it nowhere states "they are now one unit." They use other words such as "normal member" "joined to" "considered a part of" and "treated as."

If I recall, there are numerous arguments that come up on YMTC that use terminology like this to make their point. I know it (seemed) more cut and dry, but the Furious Charge/Counter-attack discussion relied on Counter-attack acting "as if," but not actually. My point is just that it's unfortunate that they didn't use entirely definitive language (i.e. "They are now one unit". I concede that you are probably, almost definitely, right. But you know that anytime someone qualifies an absolute something is wrong. I believe that RAW *might* make them one unit, I believe RAI *does* make them one unit, and I believe that Flavius was right when he says that whether they are or not matters less than the transport rules. But an interesting discussion, anyway.

@paidinfull
Maybe it's just the philosophy in me, but I just have a hard time that one thing joining another maintains the simplicity of "one." For example, if a squad with Scouts is joined by an IC without Scouts, I believe the entire squad loses Scouts. Since it is the *unit* that has the ability Scouts, wouldn't the IC automatically gain Scouts if it became a part of the unit?

However, to you (as well as nosferatu), I concede that you are probably right. ICs have many "special" rules that dictate what happens when they do or don't join a unit. This could easily be argued as specific > general, and in which case, I think you have me stumped. I certainly *cannot* prove you wrong, and I admit as much.

@No one in particular...
When Darth Bob quoted the rule earlier, the language does show that the troops do not "disembark" but rather "are deployed." In some senses, this alone makes the rules kind of silly. My guess is that GW wanted the Spore to not take up FOC, and that's why they included the words dedicated transport and for no other reason. That is then allowing the question of the ICs (because if it completely followed its own rules you'd have to go by what it says directly -- which has no mention of ICs). But since my guess is worth absolutely nothing, and I have nothing left to contribute without simply going into semantics, I'll end here.

The fact that they "are purchased as an upgrade for another brood" makes it questionable to me, more than the rest.

/shrug

So if I am reading peoples debate properly that means SM like Calgar, or Interigator Chaplains and even Belieal cannot go into drop pods or vechicles, since only transports can hold only one unit in it.

I just want to know how in the DA codex IC can join Terminators so they can Deathwing Assault. If they are not part of the squad they can't DWA. So how come DA IC can join a squat but a Tyranid IC can't join a squad?

I am shure, whey you join a unit, you become one whole unit. So why do people say when you join a unit you don't become one unit but still are 2 units. If this is the case then you can pick of an IC from shooting, and we know we can't do that because the IC is part of a unit.

I am so confused now, what was the original question of this thread?

Lucidicide wrote:I take your point. However, ICs are not normal members of the unit, as evidenced by their special rules that allow them to do things like walk away from the unit. I'm not arguing that you're incorrect, rather that it nowhere states "they are now one unit." They use other words such as "normal member" "joined to" "considered a part of" and "treated as."

What about the part on page 48, right column, second bullet point: "while an independent character is part of a unit, he must obey the usual coherency rules. The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together."

Eidolon wrote:Its not a different set of game rules, its an expansion.
Lets see what changes
no force org
one mission
big critters allowed. And you can use big things in regular games, like the Gladiator, one of several tournaments at adepticon.

[Clarification]

Arschbombe wrote: What about the part on page 48, right column, second bullet point: "while an independent character is part of a unit, he must obey the usual coherency rules. The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together."

Thats what I was going to mention as well. They are listed as a "unit" singular and not "units" plural.

Eidolon wrote:Its not a different set of game rules, its an expansion.
Lets see what changes
no force org
one mission
big critters allowed. And you can use big things in regular games, like at adepticon.

Oh....you were serious.

The reason why Apocalypse and Superheavies aren't relevant in this discussion is because Superheavies have their own set of exceptions to the normal rules for transports.
So pointing out; "Superheavies can carry more than a single squad" is irrelevant in this discussion.


And, NO. You cannot take the big things in regular 40K. Gladiator at Adepticon is NOT regular 40K. It is regular 40K....with the addition of Apocalypse/Forgeworld units.

Eidolon wrote:The errata cannot prove or disprove anything, its simply a disagreement with Gwar on GWs part. Which as they have repeatedly demonstrated, especially since Jervis "I hate tournaments" Johnson took over they are incapable of making a balanced, or clear rules set. GW has more authority but is not necessarily right.

It invalidated gwar's ruling, that is indispurtable.

But then again, anyone's ideas on how things are supposed to work are guess work at best. You never know how gw is going to errata/faq it.

If gw used precedence, it would be easier 'to guess'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eidolon wrote:They still arent the same unit on force organization chart. And what is meant by unit here? Since pods come in at the start of the game I would assume that in terms of unit they mean one force org unit, not game unit.

Let's not go making things up now.

It's confusing enough as it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eidolon wrote:Its not a different set of game rules, its an expansion.
Lets see what changes
no force org
one mission
big critters allowed. And you can use big things in regular games, like at adepticon.

Please don't bring up adepticon.

That's nothing but a farce.

This thread is basically a flame war now. Both sides repeating the same arguments with a few others on the sidelines shouting "he's right & your wrong!"

sad.

G

The codex clearly states the spores are dedicated transports. Is that why this thread withered? Did one faction win?

There's no more arguments to make about it really.