I've been reading some of the 'nid fluff recently for no apparent reason, and well, for any non 'nids it makes for depressing reading. They can eat a planet in a week. There's an ungodly amount of them, with tons being grown each day. They can mutate to overcome any obstacle. Heck, they've even got humans (albeit mostly mutant humans)working for them on the inside.

So my question to Dakka is this; Does any race have a feasable chance of stopping the Hive mind, or is the galaxy basically screwed?

/discuss.

EDIT: Rank up, yay.

Eventually there is supposedly no chance- but who knows?

If all races unite(which is impossible),Necrons fully awake and if Necrons separate materium from immaterium.

Wiki human vs locus , if you think humans have any chance against nids ( which are like 10000 times larger ) you are mistaken.

I wonder how long would the Imperium last against the full strength of the 'nids if they direct all of their war machine to 'nids.Every guardsmen,marine,skiitari,battlefleet,civilian craft etc....

what about if all space marine chapters attempts to send out specialized groups to destroy the hive mind (like in DOW2)?

Hm... maybe all the Craftworlds make babies like rabbits... then kill them... then put them in Wraithguard suits... Then go Iyanden on those Nids Wraithcannon FTW

Plus killing them all would also stregthen their God of Death and take out Slaneesh at the same time

Honestly I think Necrons and Nids will just cancel each other out, leaving the Imperium to clean up the sorry mess left behind.

That'd work out very well actually. The 'Nids can't get biomass or genetic adaptations from the Necrons.

I heard that the necrons can convert biological material into the components they need. so wouldnt the necrons just absorb the tyranids then everyone gets screwed over by necrons?

Yay for Necrons !

yeah I rather be shot by a necron than torn apart by a nid so +1 for Necrons!

Yeah, getting shot sounds alot more tempting than being eaten alive...GO TEAM NECRON!

Tyranids vs Imperium-They can eat them.
Tyranids vs Eldar- They can eat them.
Tyranids vs Necrons- If the Nids eat all other sentient races, the necrons would be free to complete their great work cutting off the Warp, at which point the Hive Mind dies, and the Necrons harvest the aimless 'Nids.
Tyranids vs Chaos- The Chaos Gods would just mutate/take over/misdirect anything that entered the Eye of Terror. So whilst they might eat everything outside of it, the Chaos Gods would stop them from eating all the Chaos Marines.
Tyranids vs Tau-Tau get eaten
Tyranids vs Dark Eldar-They live in the Webway where the Nid's can't get at them, so they're safe.
Tyrnaids vs Orks-They get eaten.

Don't Necrons turn humans into Pariahs or something? Hmm I Wouldn't mind that if that's possible.....

If I remember the fluff correctly the tyranid hive fleets originate outside the galaxy, and so even if they did kill all the tyranids in this galaxy there is always more waiting outside on the doormat.

I recall a bit from the writers talking bout nids in a WD, and eventually nids will eat everything, but it will take a while and the imperium is just fighting a losing battle. Kind of adds more grim and dark to the already grimdark setting in that we are all screwed anyway, but we can slow things down a bit if we kill off some of the hive fleets.

Would be a crappy game if they played out the fluff as is in 6th edition, I mean you would have a choice of two armies, soulless killing machines made of flesh or soulless killing machines made out of metal......

oh and space marines for some reason...

Well, I would correct about Chaos:

'Nids v. Chaos : Chaos Gods fight amongst themselves while Tyranids eat them.

and orks doesnt get eaten. they still sends out spores then they die before they get eaten. so the orks would still be there

Well, the Tyranids would eat everything organic on the planet, including the dirt. So there would be nothing left for the orks to breed from. So whatever of them survives, would quickly die, what with the lack of an atmosphere and all.

Orks and Nids on the same planet would be nuts.

Orks generally grow larger to meet there challengers, and release spores upon death to multiply.

Nids eat to generate more biomass to create more, and stronger bugs.

so the cycle would go thusly...
Nids eat most orks, not all of them, and they wouldnt be able to clear out ALL the spores.
Orks grow stronger+larger to survive against the nids, Nids eat them anyways, Nids get stronger+larger.
Orks grow stronger+larger to survive against the stronger+larger Nids, Nids eat them anyways, Nids get stronger+larger
Orks grow stronger+larger to survive against the stronger+larger Nids, Nids eat them anyways, Nids get stronger+larger
Orks grow stronger+larger to survive against the stronger+larger Nids, Nids eat them anyways, Nids get stronger+larger
Orks grow stronger+larger to survive against the stronger+larger Nids, Nids eat them anyways, Nids get stronger+larger

Give it a couple hundred(thousand) years and there will be 100 foot tall orks and genestealers beating the crap out of each other godzilla style.

Meh I prefer the 2nd Ed fluff, when they were a new terrible menace, but that the Nids were up against humanity, the most powerful force in the history of the galaxy. Royal rumble!!!! Not the current fluff where they are a terrible menace and the galaxy has no chance.

As the Great One said: "I don't believe in the no win scenario."

There's also the Grim Dark Psychology factor. GW is probably just saying "the way things look, the worst case scenario if nothing changes is that Tyranids will eat everything." So far the Hive Fleets have been getting their noses beaten in, two out of the three have been defeated and one is sort of "there" but it's activities are stagnated by 40k's frozen time line.

Ketara wrote:
Tyranids vs Necrons- If the Nids eat all other sentient races, the necrons would be free to complete their great work cutting off the Warp, at which point the Hive Mind dies, and the Necrons harvest the aimless 'Nids.

No, the Hive Mind is not stated as being a denizen of the Warp. It's just an extremely powerful psychic presence made from the collective conciousness of billions of Tyranids in one gestalt organism. It's from another Galaxy, so it's fully possible that it gains its pcychic power from some extragalactic force other than the Warp, and therefore would not be at all affected if the Warp was cut of from the material world. And after they eat all the biomass, they won't be aimless, they'll simply pack their things and move onto the next galaxy, leaving the Necrons to sit there all alone with nothing to do but maybe take the Nids' hint and go to another galaxy.

Demogerg wrote:Orks and Nids on the same planet would be nuts.

Orks generally grow larger to meet there challengers, and release spores upon death to multiply.

Nids eat to generate more biomass to create more, and stronger bugs.

so the cycle would go thusly...
Nids eat most orks, not all of them, and they wouldnt be able to clear out ALL the spores.
Orks grow stronger+larger to survive against the nids, Nids eat them anyways, Nids get stronger+larger.
Orks grow stronger+larger to survive against the stronger+larger Nids, Nids eat them anyways, Nids get stronger+larger
Orks grow stronger+larger to survive against the stronger+larger Nids, Nids eat them anyways, Nids get stronger+larger
Orks grow stronger+larger to survive against the stronger+larger Nids, Nids eat them anyways, Nids get stronger+larger
Orks grow stronger+larger to survive against the stronger+larger Nids, Nids eat them anyways, Nids get stronger+larger

Give it a couple hundred(thousand) years and there will be 100 foot tall orks and genestealers beating the crap out of each other godzilla style.

That's an interesting theory, but I'm afraid its been disproven. Read up on the Ghorala swarm. Some Orks shot down a Hive Ship which crash landed on a planet, the Orks proceeded to follow them to kill them in a massive Waaagh!. They outnumbered the injured Tyranids 2:1. The Nids later used their supreme abilities of adaption through trial and error to bolster their numbers and find a way to slaughter every last Ork on the planet, eat all the biomass on the planet, make a new Hive Ship, and go throughout Ork space wreaking havoc as they went.

P.S. That's the one where Kryptman thought he could stall Leviathan by sending them after the Orks.

from wh40k lexicanum
Kryptman's Gamble and Octavius

Kryptman observed the war between Tyranids and Orks on the world of Tesla Prime, where these two enemies of the Imperium locked each other in a long and bloody conflict. Seeing this as a way to slow or halt Leviathan without further loss of human life, Kryptman and a team of Deathwatch loyal to him embarked on a dangerous mission on the planet of Carpathia to capture a brood of live genestealers. At the cost of many Deathwatch lives, the genestealers were placed in a stasis field and then unleashed in the space hulk Peredition's Flame. The Deathwatch and Kryptman then detonated a nearby moon, sending the hulk hurtling into the Ork empire of Octavius. The genestealers quickly infected the Orks that attempted to raid the space hulk, causing the infection to flourish and quickly reach all corners of Octavius. Soon the psychic signature of the genestealers was strong enough to attract the second tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan, causing it to veer away from Imperial space. Leviathan is engaged in a protracted war with the Orks. However, whichever side remains victorious, will surely be far more powerful than they were before*3.

So the Ork/Tyranid evolution war is already underway.

2 things to think about with fighting the Tyranid
1) It might be possible to control their evolution to lead them to deadends or to promote a particular weakness that is later taken advantage of. This would be a massive undertaking requiring huge amounts of coordination, planning and intelligence regarding the Tyranid. However that is the kind of thing that Inquisitiors do.

2) What about taking the fight to the bugs prior to their arrival in the galaxy. I would assume that the Tyranid are operating in some kind of hibernation state to preserve energy in the incredibly long journey to our galaxy so its possible that they are at their weakest in this state. A sufficently large fleet might be able to strike while their pants are down (so to speak) and devistate them. At a minimum it should force them to use more resources to protect themselves, thus putting a drain on what they have access to when the fight comes.

minigun762 wrote:from wh40k lexicanum
Kryptman's Gamble and Octavius

Kryptman observed the war between Tyranids and Orks on the world of Tesla Prime, where these two enemies of the Imperium locked each other in a long and bloody conflict. Seeing this as a way to slow or halt Leviathan without further loss of human life, Kryptman and a team of Deathwatch loyal to him embarked on a dangerous mission on the planet of Carpathia to capture a brood of live genestealers. At the cost of many Deathwatch lives, the genestealers were placed in a stasis field and then unleashed in the space hulk Peredition's Flame. The Deathwatch and Kryptman then detonated a nearby moon, sending the hulk hurtling into the Ork empire of Octavius. The genestealers quickly infected the Orks that attempted to raid the space hulk, causing the infection to flourish and quickly reach all corners of Octavius. Soon the psychic signature of the genestealers was strong enough to attract the second tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan, causing it to veer away from Imperial space. Leviathan is engaged in a protracted war with the Orks. However, whichever side remains victorious, will surely be far more powerful than they were before*3.

So the Ork/Tyranid evolution war is already underway.

2 things to think about with fighting the Tyranid
1) It might be possible to control their evolution to lead them to deadends or to promote a particular weakness that is later taken advantage of. This would be a massive undertaking requiring huge amounts of coordination, planning and intelligence regarding the Tyranid. However that is the kind of thing that Inquisitiors do.

2) What about taking the fight to the bugs prior to their arrival in the galaxy. I would assume that the Tyranid are operating in some kind of hibernation state to preserve energy in the incredibly long journey to our galaxy so its possible that they are at their weakest in this state. A sufficently large fleet might be able to strike while their pants are down (so to speak) and devistate them. At a minimum it should force them to use more resources to protect themselves, thus putting a drain on what they have access to when the fight comes.

1) Yes, I agree, but it would require brilliant tactician with unbelieveable thinking processes to counter the Nids. It's possible, but not very probable.

2) They can't do that because we don't know where it is all the Tyranids are coming from. If we knew that I'm sure they would have been trying that years ago. Most come from dotted places on the Eastern fringe, but Leviathan sure as hell didn't. Not to mention, even the Tyranid Hive Ships are monsters in themselves. They'll rip apart anything that tries to mess with their deadly package, including firing missiles that inject hundreds of Stealers into the hulls of enemy ships.

The only path to victory would be to absolutely eliminate all biomass in the Hive fleet's path while simultaneously launching a campaign of harassment against it. Eventually, losses and the effort of defending itself would use up its reserves. I'm not sure even Exterminatus destroys every living thing on a planet, so someone would need to borrow the Planet Killer from Abbaddon. Depending on how long it takes to wear out the Hive Fleet, the Imperium may be left stranded in colonies of ships, not unlike Battlestar Galactica or the Squ- Demiurg.

Combine that with the need to harass the hive fleet with inorganic vessels and you end up with the construction and redeployment of combat robots and a borrowed Chaos Superweapon. Whatever was left over at the end of the war wouldn't be the Imperium of Man, but there wouldn't be an active Tyranid Fleet in the sector either.

I would disagree, it would only take one man to defeat the Tyranid threat: Chuck Norris

Inquisition takes out hive mind. Done and done.

Why doesn't the whole Imperium move, or at least the important bits of it. I'm sure that the Imperium have enough ships to literally drag Terra to another Galaxy. They planets that they ditched (and the poor, defenceless human left on them) would keep the Nids busy for long enough.

The Tyranids appear unstoppable as the current fluff goes, but we all know it can (and will) be revised to give humanity a chance. They can always insert a new plot, character, race, technology, whatever that somehow keeps the tyranids at bay without completely neutering them.

The essential question is, in a universe without any real "good guys," is it worth even offering salvation? Suppose the Tyranids just disappear; does that change anything to the collective violence of the universe? No, just one less threat to shoot at; the cycle of violence would continue.

At this point, the tyranid threat is merely the "Vegas Odds" leader as to who might win the ultimate conflict.

Grimm wrote:Why doesn't the whole Imperium move, or at least the important bits of it. I'm sure that the Imperium have enough ships to literally drag Terra to another Galaxy. They planets that they ditched (and the poor, defenceless human left on them) would keep the Nids busy for long enough.

Yeah let's drag a planet out of the galaxy on some steel cable.


/sarcasm

Skinnattittar wrote:It would only take one man to defeat the Tyranid threat: Chuck Norris

YEAH! He can obviously grow to a size bigger than the Earth and also takes out Velociraptors wholesale. Tyranids - even the Norn Queen - should be no problem. Also chicks love him.

More seriously:

I think if The Emperor used his awesome psychic powers to control the Norn Queen and then got her to devour all the nids everywhere (plus scour all nid-infested planets) then made her fly into a star or something, yeah, that would do it.

Not sure what the Emperor is waiting for, though. Maybe it isn't that easy since the Norn Queen has gotta be an immensely powerful psychic also.

Maybe the Nids will get eaten by the Squats this time?

Hey, the way the new Tyranid 'Dex looks, that's not unrealistic.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Honestly I think Necrons and Nids will just cancel each other out, leaving the Imperium to clean up the sorry mess left behind.

It's well stated in Tyranid fluff that Tyranids ignore Necron worlds as those worlds tend to be already dead.

Leigen_Zero wrote:If I remember the fluff correctly the tyranid hive fleets originate outside the galaxy, and so even if they did kill all the tyranids in this galaxy there is always more waiting outside on the doormat.

You partially remember it correctly. Tyranids are from outside the galaxy, but those fleets we've seen so far are only Vanguard fleets for the larger, more powerful fleets still in transit. Essentially, these fleets are akin to the Genestealer cults/Vanguard swarms on an intergalactic scale.

Well unless specifically stated in the new codex, that thought was only conjecture, that they COULD just be the precursor fleets. Unless fluff has changed (again) we could be looking at pretty much it. If the galaxy survives these assaults, then they are good to go and onto defeating the ultimate enemy, the Pan Fo.

Frazzled wrote:Well unless specifically stated in the new codex, that thought was only conjecture, that they COULD just be the precursor fleets. Unless fluff has changed (again) we could be looking at pretty much it. If the galaxy survives these assaults, then they are good to go and onto defeating the ultimate enemy, the Pan Fo.

That's assuming they choose to revile themselves once more.

Solorg wrote:

I think if The Emperor used his awesome psychic powers to control the Norn Queen and then got her to devour all the nids everywhere (plus scour all nid-infested planets) then made her fly into a star or something, yeah, that would do it.

Not sure what the Emperor is waiting for, though. Maybe it isn't that easy since the Norn Queen has gotta be an immensely powerful psychic also.

1) The Emperor is a vegetable that hasn't done anything substantial since M31. He sits on his little throne all day in a state of near-death, munching on Psyker brains and watching as the countless inbred nazis and Spess Mehrehns wage war for him: a corpse on a fancy chair.
2) The Norn Queen is an imobile birth mother living inside certain Hive Ships which manipulates Tyranid biomatter to make more advanced organisms. She is connected to the ship, so unless the Nids were to jump in her mouth, she ain't doing gak. She's not the "queen mother of the Tyranids" as you seem to be taking her for. Killing one of them isn't going to do anything substantial. There's hundreds of Norn Queens and they aren't that psychically powered. The main Psychic force or "overlord" of the Tyranids is the Hive Mind, which is a psychic force composed of billions of Tyranid conciousnesses all working together in one gestalt organism. It's so great in psychic power, that many theorize it may be a reincarnated (and very vengeful) Old God.

I'm sure that the Imperium will survive thanks to Spess Muhreenes.

1) Yes, I agree, but it would require brilliant tactician with unbelieveable thinking processes to counter the Nids. It's possible, but not very probable.

Im sure a certain tactical genius would have a way......

I heard that the hive fleets encountered so far are only scouting fleets for the incomprehensibly vast Tyranid population. The only way the imperium would have a chance is if the Emperor finally died, then reincarnated and started to somehow kick Tyranid ass.

So basically Necrons win in the end.

5th edition was just a minor setback.

There are very few rays of light in the new Nid fluff.

Some big changes:

#1: Basic elimination of the Nid Supervirus idea. Thank goodness. The idea of a Nid sickness that came from microscopic Nids always made the rest of the swarm look ridiculously inefficient. Nowadays the only poisoning the Nids do is with Venomthropes and acid fog. The ubiquitous Nid sickness o'doom seems to be gone.

#2: Introduction of a bunch of new Nid Hive Fleets, most of which matched up with the other races. I'm very happy to hear about this, as it is much cooler than the typical All on Imperium nonsense.

#3: Hive Tyrants + Swarm Lord = sentient? Not merely as Hive Mind nodes, but individually sentient. Very interesting, looks like Greater Daemons of the Hive Mind to me.

#4: Necron props continue, roughly the third codex to feature such. In this one they are mentioned twice:

4a: Nids are slaughtering Tau, then Necrons emerge from the world and effortlessly defeat them. Then the Tau attempt to thank their "rescuers" and get Harvested.

4b: Two tendrils of Nid Hive Fleet redirect to avoid Necron worlds into barren areas, starve themselves into dormancy rather than facing Necrons.

Orks are the counter to tyranids.


Since orks love to fight, and fighting makes them grow stronger and larger, when a Waaaaggggggghhhhh Meets a hive fleet they end up fighting forever.

Keep in mind that although fighting nids planetside is a very difficult war to win, an entire hive fleet was almost completley destroyed by the combined fleets of the ultramarines and battlefleet pacificus.

I think the biggest challenge to wiping out the nids is that far future humanities policy is to make an enemy out of every race they encounter. Nowadays, they are beset on all sides and can't mass their fleets large enough to repel tyranid advances. if they termporarily ignored nearby threats from tau/eldar/orks/chaos/necrons, got a couple battlefleets together, they could smash apart most hive fleets in one go.

Imperium just isn't logistically organized that well.

Shep wrote:Keep in mind that although fighting nids planetside is a very difficult war to win, an entire hive fleet was almost completley destroyed by the combined fleets of the ultramarines and battlefleet pacificus.

I think the biggest challenge to wiping out the nids is that far future humanities policy is to make an enemy out of every race they encounter. Nowadays, they are beset on all sides and can't mass their fleets large enough to repel tyranid advances. if they termporarily ignored nearby threats from tau/eldar/orks/chaos/necrons, got a couple battlefleets together, they could smash apart most hive fleets in one go.

Imperium just isn't logistically organized that well.

Problem with this is, most xenos follow the same policy, and would be happy as clams to stab the Imperium in the eye with the Olive Branch, then proceed to beat it senseless at the first chance they got.

In the GrimDarkFarFuture, everyone bickers like 5 year olds!

40kenthusiast wrote:
#3: Hive Tyrants + Swarm Lord = sapient? Not merely as Hive Mind nodes, but individually sapient. Very interesting, looks like Greater Daemons of the Hive Mind to me.

Fix'd

All Nids are sentient, only some are sapient.

Do 'Nids fight other 'Nids? There are multiple hive fleets, are they competitive with each other? Do they operate on a pheromone like system, akin to ants and other colony insects? If you were able to "scent" 'Nids to something other than their standard, would they fight each other thinking they are competing 'Nids?

Skinnattittar wrote:Do 'Nids fight other 'Nids? There are multiple hive fleets, are they competitive with each other? Do they operate on a pheromone like system, akin to ants and other colony insects? If you were able to "scent" 'Nids to something other than their standard, would they fight each other thinking they are competing 'Nids?

I'm pretty sure they're all united under the leadership of the Hive Mind, so I think they are all on the same page.

Darth Bob wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:Do 'Nids fight other 'Nids? There are multiple hive fleets, are they competitive with each other? Do they operate on a pheromone like system, akin to ants and other colony insects? If you were able to "scent" 'Nids to something other than their standard, would they fight each other thinking they are competing 'Nids?

I'm pretty sure they're all united under the leadership of the Hive Mind, so I think they are all on the same page.

Do you have any references for that? There could be multiple hive minds. They used to fight each other by the fluff, but that was a long, long time ago.

Skinnattittar wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:Do 'Nids fight other 'Nids? There are multiple hive fleets, are they competitive with each other? Do they operate on a pheromone like system, akin to ants and other colony insects? If you were able to "scent" 'Nids to something other than their standard, would they fight each other thinking they are competing 'Nids?

I'm pretty sure they're all united under the leadership of the Hive Mind, so I think they are all on the same page.

Do you have any references for that? There could be multiple hive minds. They used to fight each other by the fluff, but that was a long, long time ago.

Why yes, yes I do.

Tyranid Codex, page 6 wrote: The Hive Mind is a single coordinating sentience formed from untold billions of individual conciousnesses, each of which is a Tyranid.

It is one, made of many, but they all work symbiotically to govern all Tyranids toward the goal of the Hive Mind as a whole.

But does it say there is only one Hive Mind in all the universe? Or does it simply describe what a Hive Mind is? There doesn't seem to be much in the quote to insinuate there is a single Hive Mind for all Tyranids.

Well, you both seem to assume that the Hive Mind is some sort of external consciousness beamed into the brains of tyranids rather than a being made up of tyranids like a brain is made up of brain cells.

I the 5th ed codex it states that Tyranid do fight each other, the better 'mutated' fleet winning and then feeding on the other fleets bodies, taking the better 'mutations' for themselves'.

Skinnattittar wrote:But does it say there is only one Hive Mind in all the universe? Or does it simply describe what a Hive Mind is? There doesn't seem to be much in the quote to insinuate there is a single Hive Mind for all Tyranids.

Really? It says The Hive Mind is a single collective consiousness and there is nothing saying that it's not a single Hive Mind. Okay. If that's what you want to believe, then so be it. All throughout the codex it is referred to as "The Hivemind". It never mentions anything alluding to the fact that there is more than one.

Also, right before that quote I posted, it says the Hive Mind holds all Tyranid creatures under a psychic bond to let them act as one gestalt organism.

Saltoric wrote:I the 5th ed codex it states that Tyranid do fight each other, the better 'mutated' fleet winning and then feeding on the other fleets bodies, taking the better 'mutations' for themselves'.

Alright so in the end, the defeated Nids' biomass is just made into more Tyranid for the winning fleet. Sounds like it's pretty smart on the Hive Mind's part; rather than have two fleets with different advantages, have one fleet with all the advantages.

Manchu wrote:Well, you both seem to assume that the Hive Mind is some sort of external consciousness beamed into the brains of tyranids rather than a being made up of tyranids like a brain is made up of brain cells.

Ummm I assume that because that's exactly what it is? It's a being made of many conciousnesses that (for lack of a better term) beams its will into lesser Tyranid organisms through the Synaptic Web given off by larger Tyranid organisms like Hive Tyrants or the Dominatrix.

Darth Bob wrote:

Manchu wrote:Well, you both seem to assume that the Hive Mind is some sort of external consciousness beamed into the brains of tyranids rather than a being made up of tyranids like a brain is made up of brain cells.

Ummm I assume that because that's exactly what it is? It's a being made of many conciousnesses that (for lack of a better term) beams its will into lesser Tyranid organisms through the Synaptic Web given off by larger Tyranid organisms like Hive Tyrants or the Dominatrix.

No, that's not what it is. It is a collective consciousness that originates in but transcends the consciousness of its members, even including those lesser creatures. The synapse creatures merely facilitate interchange of information, which is something lesser tyranids are not capable of doing themselves. Think of neurons in the human brain being deprived of chemical synapses.

Manchu wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:

Manchu wrote:Well, you both seem to assume that the Hive Mind is some sort of external consciousness beamed into the brains of tyranids rather than a being made up of tyranids like a brain is made up of brain cells.

Ummm I assume that because that's exactly what it is? It's a being made of many conciousnesses that (for lack of a better term) beams its will into lesser Tyranid organisms through the Synaptic Web given off by larger Tyranid organisms like Hive Tyrants or the Dominatrix.

No, that's not what it is. It is a collective consciousness that originates in but transcends the consciousness of its members, even including those lesser creatures. The synapse creatures merely facilitate interchange of information, which is something lesser tyranids are not capable of doing themselves. Think of neurons in the human brain being deprived of chemical synapses.

Manchu's got it. The Hive Mind was once said to be a sentient being between the reality and the warp, where no enemy could reach it, but this has since been retconned in favor of the collective conciousness fluff that Manchu explains.

What you're thinking of DB, is more along the lines of Blizzard's misinterpretation of the Hive Mind as a living, breathing creature (which is part of the Reason GW turned down what is now Starcraft as a 40K Franchise - Blizzard got a whole schwack of fluff wrong)

metallifan wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:

Manchu wrote:Well, you both seem to assume that the Hive Mind is some sort of external consciousness beamed into the brains of tyranids rather than a being made up of tyranids like a brain is made up of brain cells.

Ummm I assume that because that's exactly what it is? It's a being made of many conciousnesses that (for lack of a better term) beams its will into lesser Tyranid organisms through the Synaptic Web given off by larger Tyranid organisms like Hive Tyrants or the Dominatrix.

No, that's not what it is. It is a collective consciousness that originates in but transcends the consciousness of its members, even including those lesser creatures. The synapse creatures merely facilitate interchange of information, which is something lesser tyranids are not capable of doing themselves. Think of neurons in the human brain being deprived of chemical synapses.

Manchu's got it. The Hive Mind was once said to be a sentient being between the reality and the warp, where no enemy could reach it, but this has since been retconned in favor of the collective conciousness fluff that Manchu explains.

What you're thinking of DB, is more along the lines of Blizzard's misinterpretation of the Hive Mind as a living, breathing creature (which is part of the Reason GW turned down what is now Starcraft as a 40K Franchise - Blizzard got a whole schwack of fluff wrong)

Ohhh...okay that fact isn't made very clear in the codex, the way it's written, it is made to sound like it is it's own thing. So basically the Tyranids are all a big brain...except bugs...hmmmm...Brainbug...

Well, I don't think that the galaxy would have to worry because they all DO have to fight with every other faction. Plus a Chaos god could just decide that the tyranids are too powerful and kill the hive mind :3

@DarthBob: Starship Troopers doesn't have a consistent (or fleshed-out) enough backstory regarding the bugs to really get how those things work beyond speculation. By contrast, I think that quotation from C:T you posted does a pretty good job of describing Hive Mind.

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:Well, I don't think that the galaxy would have to worry because they all DO have to fight with every other faction. Plus a Chaos god could just decide that the tyranids are too powerful and kill the hive mind :3

Unfortunately, no. The Hive Mind also blocks the influence of the Warp in it's presence - hence the "Warp Shadow" that preceeds an invading Hive Fleet. That's the Hive Mind pushing the warp back. Take a garden hose with a pressure nozzle (Hive Mind) and spray it into a puddle (The Warp). You'll see how it pushes the water in the puddle away from it's impact point. That's sort of how it works.

I think people really underestimate the limits of Tyranids. I mean, every codex is written to make it sound like the faction in question is invincible but if you read it carefully you will find that they actually are balanced fluff-wise. Tyranids particularly scare people, I guess, for the same reason Necrons do: seemingly limitless numbers + no emotions. Things like the Shadow in the Warp and the Hive Mind are certainly frightening in some ways but they are also liabilities.

Game over, man! Game over!

Sorry, had to =P

Y'know, if the almight God-Emperor can't save me from the Tyranid threat, why shouldn't I sell my soul to Chaos?

Nurglitch wrote:Y'know, if the almight God-Emperor can't save me from the Tyranid threat, why shouldn't I sell my soul to Chaos?

Why even bother rationalizing your defeatism?

Good point. Rationalizing pointless violence is something for the misguided fools that serve the Corpse-Emperor! Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows! Blood! Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Throne of Terror!

That's the spirit! You don't need to apologize for who you are.

i think the virus idea that the ultra marines used would be the best idea

All they need is raid.

Or a Really really big pair of boots ...... ROOOOOAAKASTOMP.....

Well, after consulting with a bunch of the "ol'hats" at the FLGS last night, our general census was that in old fluff there are several different fleets and that they do compete with each other. Tyranids fight Tyranids to either collect the other's biomass or to collect a source of biomass. While none of us has gone through the new codex, we did discuss the "Hivemind" quote used earlier, which we pulled out.

Basically "the" simply refers to "a" Hivemind. Example: THE Hivemind of Leviathan has a crush on THE Hivemind of Kraken. THE Hivemind of Kraken controls ALL Tyranids under its control.

GW fluff is not a place to go trying to use grammatical analysis. The British as just as bad as any American or Australian when it comes to proper grammar and clarity.

So I would say there are multiple Hiveminds, and while all Tyranids work together, a combined consciousness, there is a driving will, or a "Core" consciousness. Or else all Tyranids would be the same, a Termagaut would be just as brave and enigmatic as a Hive Tyrant which would have the same properties as a Trygon.

In past fluff, the "Hivemind" of Tyranids can be attacked. I wish I could pull out all this info as references, but I will sourfully admit that much of it comes from reading old codices, Black Library books, Lexicanum, and a load of other accumulated information.

Have you seen how fast humans reproduce? Were like fething rats!

We have 6.5 billion on Earth IRL, and its flying up every year.

They say there are billions upon billions of Tyranids.. humans can out shag any alien!

If you armed every single human over the age of 16 with a las gun i bet there would be a few trillion armed men. I mean, how many planets are the imperium supposed to have? A million?

The fluff says it is cruel to be a human amongst billions.. feth that, if we have 6 billion and rising on earth irl then some of those hive worlds must be sporting a few hundered billion. I bet if they actually had the time to really do a census of every single world humans would probably number about a quadrillion! We could beat them with sticks!

If the imperium of man really put some effort in they could wipe them out, they just arent very organized!

Actually, I think the fluff dictates that a planet doesn't count as a Hive Planet unless it has upwards of 300 billion human inhabitants.

I think the only races that have a chance are 'Nids, Orks, Necrons, DE and some form of humans. (not necessarily the Imperium)

oggers wrote:I think the only races that have a chance are 'Nids, Orks, Necrons, DE and some form of humans. (not necessarily the Imperium)

Maybe some Dark Age of Technology empire that survived Age of Strife and remained undiscovered by the Imperium.

My guard have never lost to a tyranid army! Let me at 'em coach!

But, the tyranids are only as dangerous as GW makes them to be. The ultramarines first company (100 dudes in terminator armour) broke the back of a tyranid hive fleet. The entire world of gyrphonne IV with millions of skitarri and titans and mechanicus goodness couldnt even make a dent. The tyranids are going to be stopped by the hive mind stubbing his toe and the great howl he releases into the warp shatters the minds of all the synapse creatures, just you watch

Volkov wrote:My guard have never lost to a tyranid army! Let me at 'em coach!

But, the tyranids are only as dangerous as GW makes them to be. The ultramarines first company (100 dudes in terminator armour) broke the back of a tyranid hive fleet. The entire world of gyrphonne IV with millions of skitarri and titans and mechanicus goodness couldnt even make a dent. The tyranids are going to be stopped by the hive mind stubbing his toe and the great howl he releases into the warp shatters the minds of all the synapse creatures, just you watch

The Ultramarines also had fleet which kept Tyranid ships from their homeworld.If Gyrphonne IV had fleet I think that it would survive.

Skinnattittar wrote:So I would say there are multiple Hiveminds, and while all Tyranids work together, a combined consciousness, there is a driving will, or a "Core" consciousness.

Depends on what you mean by "core" consciousness.

Manchu wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:So I would say there are multiple Hiveminds, and while all Tyranids work together, a combined consciousness, there is a driving will, or a "Core" consciousness.

Depends on what you mean by "core" consciousness.

Guiding entity? The things that would be individual from another in a Tyranid consciousness.

That doesn't seem supported by the Codex. Again, the proper metaphor seems to be one of cells or tissues or organs. Every Tyranid makes up the Hive Mind, even the lesser creatures. When lesser creatures are killed, the Hive Mind (although perhaps in a very limited way) is diminished. When a synapse creature is killed, the Hive Mind is disrupted. But the Hive Mind is not the consciousness of a "queen" (dominatrix, hive tyrant, whatever else) that guides the others.

Okay, but you can still have different bodies, and the Codex, from your quote, does not explicitly state that there is but one Hivemind in all the galaxy. It just talks about what A Hivemind is. I am not trying to play semantics, but we have a clash of fluff, or at least as how I remember things and the wording is ambiguous.

The Tyranids are basically a human body. Each cell is one Tyranids and they carry out different roles to contribute to one single goal: To keep the "body" going.

@Skinnattittar: Not arguing that there is only one Hive Mind. Relevant Fifth Edition Codex fluff has already been posted. There may be a clash but it would have to be between new and old fluff (as metaillifan pointed out already) and we all know in who's favor those are settled.

@Zach: Yeah, now you're getting it. Except that there are different bodies: Kraken, Behemoth, etc.

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:The Tyranids are basically a human body. Each cell is one Tyranids and they carry out different roles to contribute to one single goal: To keep the "body" going.

Substantiated by what? Are you saying all Tyranids in the galaxy are under one hivemind?

"Orkses never lose."

Skinnattittar wrote:

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:The Tyranids are basically a human body. Each cell is one Tyranids and they carry out different roles to contribute to one single goal: To keep the "body" going.

Substantiated by what? Are you saying all Tyranids in the galaxy are under one hivemind?

And the ones outside of it too. Remember, those are just the tips of the tendrils that extend from the main body of the hive fleet.

metallifan wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:The Tyranids are basically a human body. Each cell is one Tyranids and they carry out different roles to contribute to one single goal: To keep the "body" going.

Substantiated by what? Are you saying all Tyranids in the galaxy are under one hivemind?

And the ones outside of it too. Remember, those are just the tips of the tendrils that extend from the main body of the hive fleet.

That's if there are others. We don't actually KNOW yet

If tyranids fight other tyranids then it is apparent that there is more than one Hive Mind. Otherwise, the proximity of one group of tyranids to another would simply result in the merging of the consciousnesses. The only argument against this is that this kind of merging of Hive Minds triggers a "proving duel" between the combining forces to speed up brood evolution by determining which group is the most fit and to quickly reprocess the "loser" into the form of the "winner."

Manchu wrote:If tyranids fight other tyranids then it is apparent that there is more than one Hive Mind. Otherwise, the proximity of one group of tyranids to another would simply result in the merging of the consciousnesses. The only argument against this is that this kind of merging of Hive Minds triggers a "proving duel" between the combining forces to speed up brood evolution by determining which group is the most fit and to quickly reprocess the "loser" into the form of the "winner."

Or they duke it out and the superior fleet wins, or become so weakened that another force comes in and wipes both out.

@Skinnattittar: Sure, but that doesn't really address the point of whether there is one Hive Mind or many Hive Minds.

I sounds like there are many Hiveminds. AH! In one of the Ciaphas Cain novels a splinter fleet is coming to the planet. It is inferred in the novel that Hiveminds can be independent, IIRC.

Skinnattittar wrote:

metallifan wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:The Tyranids are basically a human body. Each cell is one Tyranids and they carry out different roles to contribute to one single goal: To keep the "body" going.

Substantiated by what? Are you saying all Tyranids in the galaxy are under one hivemind?

And the ones outside of it too. Remember, those are just the tips of the tendrils that extend from the main body of the hive fleet.

That's if there are others. We don't actually KNOW yet

In the Fluff, the Imperium isn't sure.

We the players, are. The narrative has stated that there are indeed more Tyranids waiting in Darkspace.

metallifan wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:

metallifan wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:The Tyranids are basically a human body. Each cell is one Tyranids and they carry out different roles to contribute to one single goal: To keep the "body" going.

Substantiated by what? Are you saying all Tyranids in the galaxy are under one hivemind?

And the ones outside of it too. Remember, those are just the tips of the tendrils that extend from the main body of the hive fleet.

That's if there are others. We don't actually KNOW yet

In the Fluff, the Imperium isn't sure.
We the players, are. The narrative has stated that there are indeed more Tyranids waiting in Darkspace.

Where? I'm serious, I don't remember reading anywhere out of the narrative of the Imperium that says "there are bigger, badder, and more Tyranids waiting/in transit beyond the galaxy on their way."

EDIT : Clean up

Skinnattittar wrote: I don't remember reading anywhere out of the narrative of the Imperium that says "there are bigger, badder, and more Tyranids waiting/in transit beyond the galaxy on their way."

Robin Cruddace wrote:With every passing year, the tendrils of the Hive Fleets push deeper into populated space whilst yet others approach from the intergalactic void, their vanguard elements just now beginning to penetrate the galaxy. (C:T5th, p7)

Manchu wrote:

Robin Cruddace wrote:With every passing year, the tendrils of the Hive Fleets push deeper into populated space whilst yet others approach from the intergalactic void, their vanguard elements just now beginning to penetrate the galaxy. (C:T5th, p7)

I'll say again, I don't have the latest codex, BUT! that does not say "ridiculous amounts of Tyranids be here" with a map pointing to all around the Milky Way galaxy. It just says "the Tyranids that are here are going deeper into the galaxy and there are more popping up." Just in a far more GrimDark way. I'm just saying!

It's funny you should mention a map. There is one showing basically what you describe on pp10-11. There's another one in the BGB you might be more familiar with:

Yes, actually, I am familiar with that one (I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned sooner!). Though you have to take it with a bit of salt as it doesn't say what those spider webby looking things represent, other than the hive fleet. Not a concentration value or anything like that, or "possible hive entities," just some spidery blobs. Just saying! No context!

I'm pretty sure what's being implied is that what has been encountered of the Tyranid threat is just the tip of the iceberg. It's pretty well-established, as I've already pointed out by quoting the Codex.

Well I will continue to disagree with your interpretation of the fluff.

At this point you're just disagreeing with my interpretation of diagrams and sentences written in English, it would seem.

Yes, I am, and you're disagreeing with my interpretation of the lack of supporting fluff for your assessment. Or more properly, the lack of definitive information. I would rather not partake in any dissolution of civility. Let's not start sniping at each other.

You're right and I apologize. I've just never encountered someone who wanted to debate one of the most foundational characteristics of Tyranids, namely that there are many more of them than have yet been encountered. It simply flies in the face of all available fluff.

I'm going to leave now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
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Putting it, rather simply:

The forces of the Tyranids that have been encountered so far are just the probing tendrils of the Hive Mind(and The Outsider, by some theories). The further degradation of the Warp towards the outer spiral is a side-effect of such a huge quantity of 'Nids coming in and the effect of them and their Shadow of the Warp cropping up.

Or even a better way to think of it:
We've just seen their first probing strikes. They've marked us as their food. They will not stop until we've slaughtered them all or we're left barren and lifeless, a mere echo of what we were.

In codex many many times , those Tyranid represented on the Incursion map are called Tendrils.

And they are always described that the imperium have only fought and barely survived these Tendrils.

There was a Space Marine commander i forgot his name , he even had to trick Orks into fighting Tyranids to buy themselves some time. ( who is heresy like Eldar now kekeke )
oh kan niinja me to it

From the incursion map i guess , Behemoth vs Ultarmar would be the most effort Tyranid put into their battle so far,
with that much number concentrated at the one same spot , they look really angry lol

LunaHound wrote:From the incursion map i guess , Behemoth vs Ultarmar would be the most effort Tyranid put into their battle so far,
with that much number concentrated at the one same spot , they look really angry lol

yeah, it was so important it became a boxed set!

Kanluwen wrote:Putting it, rather simply:

The forces of the Tyranids that have been encountered so far are just the probing tendrils of the Hive Mind(and The Outsider, by some theories). The further degradation of the Warp towards the outer spiral is a side-effect of such a huge quantity of 'Nids coming in and the effect of them and their Shadow of the Warp cropping up.

Or even a better way to think of it:
We've just seen their first probing strikes. They've marked us as their food. They will not stop until we've slaughtered them all or we're left barren and lifeless, a mere echo of what we were.

Actually, from what I could glean from the new dex, most of the attacks HAVE merely been probing our strength. But it appears that the attack from Hive Fleet Leviathan is the first real attempt to wrestle control of the galaxy.

There is no time in the warp.
Chaos deamons can be banuished but can come back in 1000years...but oh wait there is no time.
they reappear instantly and are ready to fight again..the poor bastards just remember a 1000 years of nothingness so they don't come back with a grudge or any real memory of what the feth happened to them.


So if true chaos was ever really threatened by something they'd just throw insane amounts of deamons at you until the hive mind revealed its self from its little shadow thing, and actually tried to take on a god, but then...yeah when its god on god fight who the feth knows anymore amirite?

Feth. That made less sense than Deepak Chopra in a G-String.

Am I the only one that remembers in the last Tyranid Codex how, if we assume that the Hive Fleets are mere "scouts", then the Imperium would need to up conscription by 500%? Seems to me that we just do that and we're fine, oh, and BTW, there are more races than just the Imperium who can kill loads'a 'Nids. 'Nids are a threat, a serious one, but not OMG!!!!1111 IT"S ALL OVER!!!!!!1111

Well every time I have fought tyranids my guard outnumber them. So...ya not worried. Although the tyranid fleet in battlefleet gothic is scary

From what I can gather from xenology, the way to beat a hive is to find a way to disrupt the nids psychic comunication and it will render them useless and they even start attacking each other. The problem is finding out what could do that.

So no, not game over, just a signficant challenge.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Feth. That made less sense than Deepak Chopra in a G-String.

Argh! Get it out! *runs in little circles*

Morgrim wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Feth. That made less sense than Deepak Chopra in a G-String.

Argh! Get it out! *runs in little circles*

And yet another foul Dark Eldar realises too late that the Inquisition has it's own methods of very effective torture...

whatwhat wrote:The problem is finding out what could do that.

So no, not game over, just a signficant challenge.

See: Codex Tyranids, 4th Edition "Shoot the big ones!"

Basically, kill everything taller than a Gaunt. They aren't all Synapse Creatures, but you're bound to hit at least a good number of them

augfubuoy wrote:Am I the only one that remembers in the last Tyranid Codex how, if we assume that the Hive Fleets are mere "scouts", then the Imperium would need to up conscription by 500%? Seems to me that we just do that and we're fine (yes, I know, that would be hard to do), oh, and BTW, there are more races than just the Imperium who can kill loads'a 'Nids. 'Nids are a threat, a serious one, but not OMG!!!!1111 IT"S ALL OVER!!!!!!1111

I'll quote myself. Maybe you guys will understand if I reiterate. I haven't seen anything to contradict that evidence from the previous Codex: Tyranids. Anyone?

@augfubuoy: Like I've said (somewhere) that particular piece of information was a prediction by a certain Bio-Techpreist or something on what it would take to defeat the 'Nid threat. It's actually hardline, GW approved and accounted for, evidence.

hmmm, Daemons and Necrons are the only 2 races that can stop nids. Daemons just dissappear when they die, as do Necrons. This means that there is no biomass to restore dead nids. The Chaos gods will help the imperium, because if nids win, they have nothing left to give them an edge over each other.

It makes sense to think that the first few fleets the galaxy's seen are simply a test of our strength. I mean even if the Hive Mind isn't that intelligent, I would assume it's still smart enough to gauge it's prey. Also with the amounts of Tyranid they commit to JUST a probing attack kind of insinuates they are more...somewhere.

As for races that can compete? Hell, if I know >_> Maybe the imperium if they weren't so distracted by every other race trying to kill them.

Emperors Faithful wrote:@augfubuoy: Like I've said (somewhere) that particular piece of information was a prediction by a certain Bio-Techpreist or something on what it would take to defeat the 'Nid threat. It's actually hardline, GW approved and accounted for, evidence.

Not in any attempt to start a flame war or anything, I just need clarification: How is that not a "GW approved and accounted for" piece of evidence? What would qualify as an indisputable piece of evidence?

Look, you might have a point here, but I need to know what you consider evidence, not just what you consider as conjecture.

ive been heering that the necrons control the tyranids

augfubuoy wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:@augfubuoy: Like I've said (somewhere) that particular piece of information was a prediction by a certain Bio-Techpreist or something on what it would take to defeat the 'Nid threat. It's actually hardline, GW approved and accounted for, evidence.

Not in any attempt to start a flame war or anything, I just need clarification: How is that not a "GW approved and accounted for" piece of evidence? What would qualify as an indisputable piece of evidence?
Look, you might have a point here, but I need to know what you consider evidence, not just what you consider as conjecture.

A statement, like "upping troop production 500% will destroy the nids" vs. "upping troop production 500% might, if we're lucky, just maybe stop the tyranids for now."

augfubuoy wrote:Am I the only one that remembers in the last Tyranid Codex how, if we assume that the Hive Fleets are mere "scouts", then the Imperium would need to up conscription by 500%? Seems to me that we just do that and we're fine, oh, and BTW, there are more races than just the Imperium who can kill loads'a 'Nids. 'Nids are a threat, a serious one, but not OMG!!!!1111 IT"S ALL OVER!!!!!!1111

Upping conscription by 500% won't do jack, other than if a series of disasterous battles happen--wiping out 500% more troops than it would have at the same level.

And those numbers are something the Imperium need at other battlefields, other industries, etc. Not to mention the fact that it will wipe out almost an entire generation of the Imperium's fighting capacity, and even moreso...do nothing but provide MORE biomass for the Tyranids.

Which in turn would be something like a 500% increase, pretty instantly, in the Tyranid's forces given that Tyranids are ready to fight right from 'birth', while it requires 14 years(minimum) for the Imperium to even begin training your basic Guardsmen, and something like 18-20 for training/creating new Astartes.

ive been heering that the necrons control the tyranids

Wait... Huh?

Someone's gravely misinformed and confused, methinks. Unless you have an interesting theory? I love theories.