Apologies if this is in the wrong forum (or even if its seen as advertising or something and shouldnt be included at all) but...

A friend has recently opened a FLGS type place, basically specialising in GW miniatures as well as flames of war, and doing computer repairs/parts on the side.

One plan he has for the upstairs portion of the shop is to raise a bit of additional revenue by hiring out the room for an hourly rate to play, using the store bought scenery and such (i.e. there is a cost involved with it even above and beyond the rent/heating/lighting, its not just a space for people to bring their own stuff)

I dont want to go into too many details just incase it is seen as advertising, but a question to those out there - who would pay for the convenience of a set out area away from wife/kids/whatever for a few hours in relative peace? The question has come about as it seems that its seen as a bit of a standard by GW stores to offer free space for playing games, but independant stores don't have the financial backing to be able to afford to lay the room on for free, and people who have been questioned about it can see the logic behind charging, but argue that most people will just go around each others houses and play for free, even if it involves hassle such as moving the dining room table and making sure the dog/kids don't knock the figures flying.

The obvious benefit is of course the community aspect (i.e. you might get 1-2 people in your house with everything else, but you may not want to give every tom, dick and harry your address and have 10 people turn up there)

From the point of veiw of someone who's had game stores for 20 years, and advised quite a few other people opening stores, I would advise to NOT charge for gaming space.

Put in the gaming area, keep it clean, decorate it, make killer scenery, and do what you can to make it a great place to play. And keep it free.

The money you make from sales of games will far, far exceed what you might get from charging for the space. It also puts you in the position to suuport your players, vs. chasing after them for an hourly fee.

I do things like running a free painting class every week, with free paint, basing materials, glue, and tools. Everyone paints, learns how to model, and then buys tons of paints, tools, and more things to paint. Better customer service makes your store better.

JMHO, but Don't charge.

Sounds like he wants to have his cake and eat it.

The whole point of paying full retail at a physical store is the free gaming space. If he's charging for that, then he should sell product at online discounter rates.

mikhaila wrote:From the point of veiw of someone who's had game stores for 20 years, and advised quite a few other people opening stores, I would advise to NOT charge for gaming space.

Put in the gaming area, keep it clean, decorate it, make killer scenery, and do what you can to make it a great place to play. And keep it free.

The money you make from sales of games will far, far exceed what you might get from charging for the space. It also puts you in the position to suuport your players, vs. chasing after them for an hourly fee.

I do things like running a free painting class every week, with free paint, basing materials, glue, and tools. Everyone paints, learns how to model, and then buys tons of paints, tools, and more things to paint. Better customer service makes your store better.

JMHO, but Don't charge.

This. Listen to Mikhaila.

However, at the very most for "charging for gaming space"?

Maybe a kind of 'preferred customer' membership, where they get a discount and priority when scheduling non-tournament games?

I am not shure how it will go. I think most people will not try it because, you can play for free else where. But if the price is reasonable, it could work out. I guess you have to try it and see.

A store opened up that I go to. He sells GW and a few other things, GW mainly, so similiar to you. But he dosn't charge. I think that is why I keep coming back. (well the 20% off dose help ) If he was charging I don't think he would be getting people back. I think that he gives people a free place to play, people will be buying from his store.

If your friend decides to charge people, then the people can have the attitude, why buy from your store when you charge me to play? You are getting my money one way or the other.

Again I wish your friend luck, but I don't think it will work. I find it just greedy and somone trying to take more money out of me. Unless the room he has is huge and would cost him extra money to have it opened for people to play in. Then it could be understandable to be charging then.

Its not a good idea to charge for gaming place. It sort of destroys the bonds / loyalty your potential customer have for the store.

He's already selling at a discounted rate from the manufacturers RRP (GW and whoever does FOW, can never remember)

I'll pass on the views with regards to the rental issue though, and its basically what the customers are saying as well.

He only opened in december, so the customer base is pretty thin on the ground at the moment until word of mouth/advertising kicks in, and hes only looking for ways to make ends meet at the moment. If he could sustain the business purely though sales at the store then no doubt the view is that the room would be given for free, but experience so far has shown that those who wanted to use the room were somewhat reluctant to spend money buying new models as they already had their armies and things, just loathed to travel to the nearest GW shop, and loved the idea that there was somewhere open nearer to home (again, a convenience issue above all else)

Lomar4976 wrote:He's already selling at a discounted rate from the manufacturers RRP (GW and whoever does FOW, can never remember)

I'll pass on the views with regards to the rental issue though, and its basically what the customers are saying as well.

He only opened in december, so the customer base is pretty thin on the ground at the moment until word of mouth/advertising kicks in, and hes only looking for ways to make ends meet at the moment. If he could sustain the business purely though sales at the store then no doubt the view is that the room would be given for free, but experience so far has shown that those who wanted to use the room were somewhat reluctant to spend money buying new models as they already had their armies and things, just loathed to travel to the nearest GW shop, and loved the idea that there was somewhere open nearer to home (again, a convenience issue above all else)

If you don't mind me asking, where is the store situated? I noticed your profile says North East UK, so I'd be interested by how close by it is. Sorry to be off topic, but I figured I'd ask.

How about instead of charging, leave a tip box/jar with a notice saying that the money put in the box will be used to support the gaming area and to get new scenery. That way, people can put money specifically towards their gaming area, without having to be pressured.

Charging for gaming space drives people from your store.

Supporting gaming in your store brings people in.

Anything that brings people into your store will increase sales. Not from every person every day, but there is going to be a direct increase attributable to number of people in the store, over time.

People not in the store, will not buy anything.

If he just started up in December, he should be working to get more in, not driving them away.

I know that the shop in dublin that opened recently enough charges after a certain time. I think this is reasonable. It's not a huge amount.
I like having the shop there to play, and rent in Dublin city centre is obscene, so I don't mind paying a few quid weekly.

I know a few places that charge for storage space at the store( lockers) so you can store you minis there... But charging to play( Ive been to one of those places too, And I made sure i wasnt disturbed while playing with people coming up and asking questions, or having new customers come up an asking for help. ) I told them If i have to pay for a table, for X amount of time , you need to get employees out there to answer questions, and to help there clients..
After about three weeks of the local gamers being like that , the store owner went back too free tables, and every one went back to the normal routine of helping out the store with things like answering questions, that employees didnt know etc...

I would not pay. Simply because, if I am favouring a FLGS with my custom over the local GW, or online retailers, I don't want some guy coming up to me halfway through my 40K game and telling me I need to effectively top up the parking meter. Any method whereby the owner attempted to enforce this would result in me feeling harassed, and playing and buying elsewhere from that point on.

Ketara wrote:I would not pay. Simply because, if I am favouring a FLGS with my custom over the local GW, or online retailers, I don't want some guy coming up to me halfway through my 40K game and telling me I need to effectively top up the parking meter. Any method whereby the owner attempted to enforce this would result in me feeling harassed, and playing and buying elsewhere from that point on.

QFT. The store owner/employees are now in an adversarial role towards their customers, trying to collect money from them for something most of them consider should be free.

Let the increased revenue from people coming into the store help. When I was gaming every week at my FLGS, I'd often pick up a blister, small box, or at least a pot of paint. I know things are just starting, but give it time.

You could charge an annual membership fee for an organized gaming group though. You could also have tournaments where you have to pay a small fee to get in. Something as simple as 10 quid a person with the prize being any battleforce/battalion box they want. Members get in for 5 dollars and have a dedicated "game night" once per week where they all meet.

If there's some kind of cooler or some snacks the storekeeper could sell drinks and chips to people gaming. I wouldn't mind dropping a buck for a can of soda or bottle of water while gaming.

Just work on lots of little things and hope for the best.

If a store charged me to play on their tables then no god-damned way would I buy models there. I'll bite the bullet and pay full retail for models at the store since I feel guilty walking in there, using up a table for hours, and then walking out empty-handed...but if I have to pay for the table then I consider it a done deal and wouldn't feel any guilt at all for buying all my gak online at a reasonable price.*

Really bad idea in my opinion.

How about instead of charging, leave a tip box/jar with a notice saying that the money put in the box will be used to support the gaming area and to get new scenery. That way, people can put money specifically towards their gaming area, without having to be pressured.

That sounds like a great idea, actually. If my store had a donation jar I would definitely drop cash in there regularly. Anything to get some better terrain on those tables...or better tables.



*Of course I still buy things online anyway...sometimes the discounts are just too good to pass up, and it's annoying walking into the store and finding that they never really restock or have what I want.

If I'm going to pay for my gaming space, it'll be my garage, basement, or game room - not somebody else's place.

Hi all.
I agree that charging for gaming space is a bit counter productive.
However , IF there is a regular gaming group using the space, and THEY want to form a club , where a small nominal fee is spent on improving -buying stuff for the club that is far more acceptable and appreciated.(Eg £1 per week for example.)

The increase in foot fall in store should be reward enough for the shop owner.

How about you fit a vending machine in there? Then the room is free, and they don't have to go far to get a drink/snack.

Neith wrote:
If you don't mind me asking, where is the store situated? I noticed your profile says North East UK, so I'd be interested by how close by it is. Sorry to be off topic, but I figured I'd ask.

Its in Gateshead, Low Fell to be exact. Its on Beaconsfield Road just up from the 'Ye Old Cannon' pub (called the Gamers Outpost)

Might be a bit of a trek from Middlesborough though.

Howard A Treesong wrote:How about you fit a vending machine in there? Then the room is free, and they don't have to go far to get a drink/snack.

Having looked into a vending machine, he says that the rentals are way too pricey for the expected return, no companies were willing to offer any trials and wanted to tie him down to a fixed term (usually 12 month minimum) contract.
If theres anyone knows of any companies that were willing to offer shorter term (3 month or so) contracts based in the UK as a trial then please let me know so I can pass it on, as its something he wanted to try from day 1, just found it impractical on a limited budget.

Not sure about the tip jar idea though. That may work well in america, where theres a 'tipping culture' but its definately not something that usually works over here. Its an idea of course.

Anyway thanks for your views all, its pretty much to be expected. Back in the day when we used to run a gaming club at the local community centre together, we used to charge £3 per member for 2 and a half hours to cover the rental of the room, to be honest we had a view that a similar sort of price would be able to be done here, to cover the rental of the room and expenses etc associated with it. It was really successful for 3 years or so, until the members started to drift apart due to natural growing up/moving on etc, we never really had new blood coming through the door. Thats partially the worry at the moment, the fact that it takes a good 10 or so year gap for the 'new generation' of gamers to get into it - thats somewhat why the store opened now - the sons and daughters of the old members are now trying to find out what their parents do with all those figures they spend hours with their friends with, so the store was the next natural progression.

Of course, charging for a room when the only income is the rents is one thing, charging for a room when theres a retail outlet downstairs is something else, and I can see everyone elses point in the thread. Its something to let him ponder over.

We have a fine local gamestore that rents conference rooms in the shopping center for us to game every Monday night. It's free, but they did try asking for a couple of dollars for terrain rental for awhile, there was huge wear and tear on the many sets they supplied for our use every week. Eventually they stopped asking, but while they were, no one here minded at all.

We've seen a few local gamestores go out of business because of the bad economy. So we are very protective about our remaining stores. We don't mind springing a bit to keep things going. Actually we don't have a GW store here, and this store is one of the only places large numbers of us can gather to game and socialize and hang out once a week. If your friends store is someplace where people have a lot of other options for places to go, they may not want to pay. Especially because he hasn't had a chance to build up a rapport with the local gamers yet. But in my opinion, a good place to hang out is worth a dollar or two an hour. I spend that much on sodas while I game, ha ha Just my opinion

Most gamers feel a game room is a right and not a privaledge. Unavoidable fact as evidenced already in this thread.

This mentality is a symptom of the tragically flawed LGS model that everyone clings to despite the fact that 9 out of 10 stores fail largely due to clinging to this very model.

1. I think a nominal fee of $1-4 for the day is reasonable and if a store had quality tables and terrain and kept the space clean and odor free I would pay it without question.

Fact is that when people pay for something (even a negligable fee like a dollar) they take more pride and ownership over it's upkeep. Free gaming spaces are usually utter s**tholes for a reason:

No one has respect for terrain or the space and assumes they deserve it by birthright, trash left, etc. ,etc.)... Also people just looking to hang around and be annoying/steal stuff/leech off the store and it's patrons will be less likely to do so. If people pay even a small fee they will get on others that make messes, etc. far more often then if they aren't paying a fee..

I have seen a number of great stores go under that in hindsight i should/would have payed a fee to game there given how much time I spent there and how much terrrain, tables and so forth they provided. Most gamers however will balk at this "offense" to their sensibilities right up until their store closes to be replaced by another new store on the same track to failure as the previous one...



2. Another idea is to divide the space up into two areas:

* Make one area free to all and offer decent tables/terrain. Nothing fancy, but adequate by LGS standards

* Make a second area restircted to either members of a club that pay a certain monthly fee or who reserve the tables for x amount per game. Put the really nice tables and terrain in here ( maybe invest in some FW or other custom terrain, themed tables, real eye-catching stuff, etc., etc.)and offer some other percs (house templates and dice, small fridge, etc.)

If he's going to charge, then maybe it should be for events with prize support, with the overage
going to nice terrain and such if he wants to keep account of these things.

Rather than charge for gaming space, I've seen a couple of stores do the following.

Rather than offer a discount on everything, they sell a yearly membership in a club, for some nominal fee ($20/year, I think). They then offer a 10% discount on anything bought in the store for club members.

I think this has a few effects:

1) Most gamers will think they can make the $20 back with a few purchases. They're probably right. But, once they have that membership, they're vested in the store - they're more likely to buy stuff in your store than any other store because they've put an investment into getting their discount.

2) You make more money off random purchases, because you're not offering a flat-rate discount on everything. This includes things like grandma coming in to buy Timmy a box of marines for his birthday. Grandma's going to pay full price, but she'll go to your store because that's where Timmy plays.

As for getting people in the door, run a monthly tournament for every game system you support. First Sturday, 40k, second saturday, warmachine, third, WFB, etc.

Also, if you have the space, make sure you support different types of games. Friday night can be 'Friday night Magic' night. The best game store I've been to had a lot of small two-person tables up front for card gamers, as well as large wargaming tables in back, and a couple of octagonal poker-style tables as well, for board gamers and RPG groups.

They stocked a ton of boardgames, and just about every game they stocked, they had an open copy of that people could try out for free. It's a lot easier to drop $50 on a board game if you've had a chance to examine the box contents and maybe play through a turn or two.

My LGS charges for gaming space and many people that play there purchase only the table space. They use maelstrom for everything else.

In my area, game stores have tried both. These days, all shops are free-to-play.

A number of problems arise once you start charging people for gaming space. In no particular order, I have seen:

* Gamers get resentful if other gamers are slow about setting up or packing away.

* Players become unhelpful to the newbies & curious onlookers, who are interrupting the paid-for time.

* Players stop taking care of the store terrain, assuming that any damage they cause is 'paid for'.

* Management shows favoritism towards friends and/or discriminates against 'undesirables' with regard to scheduling, timekeeping, etc.

* Parents start using the store as a cheap babysitting service.

All in all, it seems that charging for playing space creates more headaches than it solves.

dont do it.

my lgs charges a 'membership fee' which basically says we have to pay to play non-gw games (its the only store in brighton that sells non-gw stuff) which has put me off of the games it sells.

Yes, I would.
The downside is payment.
However, if its guaranteed that you have a playground
then its worth it.

Would I pay? Probably. Would I be such a FLGS nazi looking after the store's best interest? No. It becomes way to mercenary. The store benefits from me bringing painted minis to the store and being nice to potential customers, I would ignore people if I were paying to play there. My time, my money.

My FLGS lets me play for free, provides nice terrain (which is done by the community and a few store provided ones when new pieces are released by GW) and supports the hobby in a non-money grubbing way.

I feel almost obligated in a moral way to buy something each time I'm there. Most of the other players feel the same way. The FLGS takes care of us, so we will take care of them.

fellblade wrote:

* Gamers get resentful if other gamers are slow about setting up or packing away.

* Players become unhelpful to the newbies & curious onlookers, who are interrupting.

* Players stop taking care of the store terrain, assuming that any damage they cause is 'paid for'.

* Management shows favoritism towards friends and/or discriminates against 'undesirables'

* Parents start using the store as a free babysitting service.

All of these things have happened and happen regularly in stores that are free to play in as well, and I have seen a fair number of stores in my 28 years of wargaming, inclusing the one I owned and ran...

I wouldn't pay.

I have bought most (like 90%) of my substancial Guard army at my FLGS. It is also the place where i learned to play and meet my gaming budies. Most my purchases were done just before the counter closes for the night while the manager is waiting for us to finish the game. I have already paid for my models, paints etc. If he tried to charge for the table (and the realm of war battleboard) i would have instead organised gaming nights at my table at home. Besides it's nice to have onlookers who are interested in the game. We usually go out of our way to explain things to them or to the new guy who plays w/ proxies from his fantasy army. I doubt if i would be so magnanimus so as to schedule a game and pay for the table just to show the game to someone....

I had a bad experience a month or two back with this. LGS (they lost the F) I had occasionally played at every so often moved to pay-for-play.

They had no signs up. No counter staff mentioned the fee when we set up. Tons of people playing various things just like any other day.
Me and a new player played for about an hour and a half. We are putting our stuff up and then one of 3 clerks walks up.

"Do you have your gaming space tickets?" I look at the guy figuring he's joking. He's always got a clever smart alecky thing to say when you walk past the counter.
"Ticket?"
"Yeah. It costs two dollars to play OR you can buy x amount of stuff ($20 if IIRC) and play for free that day."
"When did that change? I didn't see any signs up."
"It's been like that for a couple of months now. I've seen you in here since we started charging."

Me and the other guy agree that we'll pay for our ticket as the clerk starts badgering a group of teens who are playing CCGs at the nearby tables. He's let everybody get back there and set up for a good while before he starts mentioning anything. Not a single sign in the place. Two bucks per person is the rate but nothing to let you know except a clerk acting like a train conductor on a train that you'd been riding for free for years on and off.

They got my two bucks. They have a nice place to play and it would be worth it IF I knew about it. That ambush stuff lost my business. I had already picked out a vehicle set from Flames of War ($50) before we played that I was going to pick up after gaming that day. I'll play GW only games at GW for free before I support that kind of penny ante practice.

An hourly fee? Yeah that be the last place I'd want to play at. A small nominal fee maybe (under $4-$5) I could deal with for the day perhaps, but an hourly rate would see me never enter the store.

Make it Free as everyone else stated, But add a small snack bar up there. You will make a killing!!


If you have a trustworthy friend / customer pay him minimum wage to man the snack bar, answer rules questions, and play a game with anyone that shows up without a gaming partner.

mikhaila wrote:
QFT. The store owner/employees are now in an adversarial role towards their customers, trying to collect money from them for something most of them consider should be free.

Paying for use of space and materials should never be assumed free, especially in a buisness/service industry environment.

Many LGS allow free use of game space becase they are afraid not to or are bullied into it, not because it "should" be free. Big difference.

I think all resturants should give me free refills because my local favorite does...

I think the local paintball range should let me use their fields for free because after all I support them by buying my gear form them...

I think the mall parking garage should be free, afetr all I buy my stuff there...

etc., etc.

What we want as consumers and what we deserve or have a right to demand are too different things. Unfortunatly the average LGS is so held hostage by it's customers that it is often forced to go along with all manner of things that make no buisness sense whatsoever in a attempt to appease whatever narrow revenue stream it has...

CT GAMER wrote:

mikhaila wrote:
QFT. The store owner/employees are now in an adversarial role towards their customers, trying to collect money from them for something most of them consider should be free.

Paying for use of space and materials should never be assumed free, especially in a buisness/service industry environment.

Many LGS allow free use of game space becase they are afraid no to or are bullied into it, not because it "should" be free. Big difference.

I think all resturants should give me free refills because my local favorite does...

I think the local paintball range should let me use their fields for free because after all I support them by buying my gear form them...

etc., etc.

What we want as consumers and what we deserve or have a right to demand are too different things. Unfortunatly the average LGS is so held hostage by it's customers that it is often forced to go along with all manner of things that make no buisness sense whatsoever in a attempt to appease the mob...

Fair enough. I'll pay for play but there needs to be signs so that folks know it's a cost to use the facilities (see my notes above). Also if the place goes to that model of making money, I won't feel at all bad about buying on-line discount for the same products they sell at full retail plus tax.

privateer4hire wrote: Also if the place goes to that model of making money, I won't feel at all bad about buying on-line discount for the same products they sell at full retail plus tax.

This is the standard cop-out passive aggressive stance that most spoiled gamers take. Congrats...

You should do this though. Stick it to the man and all that...

CT GAMER wrote:
...All of these things have happened and happen regularly in stores that are free to play in as well, and I have seen a fair number of stores in my 28 years of wargaming, inclusing the one I owned and ran...

True. But when something like that happens in a 'free' store, the management has a lot of leeway in dealing with it. "I provide a free gaming space as a benefit to my customers. Your behavior, sir, is damaging the collegial atmosphere. Please leave my store."
When someone pays to play, the management has a more difficult time reigning in bad behavior. For most people, money replaces shame. "Your behavior, sir, is unaccept-" "I PAID to game here! You can't do anything until my time is up!"

I'm not going to argue about the unrealistic expectations of consumers, or what should be 'free' and what we should have no problem paying a fee for. The simple fact of the matter is, a well-managed & friendly store will develop a loyal customer base. Providing free gaming space is one way to offer the customer more than the competition. Charging for gaming space may eventually erode customer loyalty, especially if some stores practice ambush tactics like those mentioned in the post above. I know that if I were treated that way, I would never patronize that store again, even if they went back to having free gaming.

Actually...there's plenty they can do.

1)Post a list of acceptable behaviors, alongside of requiring parents AND minors AND adults to sign a waiver agreeing to abide by that list of behaviors.
2) Right to refuse service or revoke service would be in effect, in that case. If I could get tossed out of a laser tag place when I was 14 for swearing(after having paid for a whole day and only getting to play only an hour)--I'm pretty sure a hobby shop would be well within their rights to toss someone out for being a douchemonkey.

Yep. And then you go from managing a store and making sales, to policing behavior and enforcing rules. (Did you sign the waiver? Is it on file? Why can't I find it?) So how much of a headache do you want?

Not saying that you won't have headaches with free gaming space too, just that on the one hand you will probably develop a community of regular customers who will support your decisions, while on the other hand you have a bunch of renters who are more concerned about getting what they paid for.

And the right to refuse service is always in effect, even if the gaming is free.

CT GAMER wrote:

privateer4hire wrote: Also if the place goes to that model of making money, I won't feel at all bad about buying on-line discount for the same products they sell at full retail plus tax.

This is the standard cop-out passive aggressive stance that most spoiled gamers take. Congrats...

You should do this though. Stick it to the man and all that...

One FGS has it about right to appeal to gamers in a world where on-line is realistically very difficult to compete with. They offer free gaming space, have sales, offer discounts and actively encourage their community gaming. Their website is professionally done and maintained, realizing it's a full time business they're running. It's about an hour drive but I go out of my way to give them my business in addition to the store that's 6 miles from my house.

Congrats to you, too. Many business experts owning and/or operating LGSs are spoiled gamers. Your defense of brick and mortar 1970s tactics is also a standard cop-out of many owner/operators.

Charging just creates a negative attitude in the customers. Sell canned drinks, chocolate bars, crisps (chips to you americans) and you'll turn a good profit on the space.

Don't bother with vending machines - you'll never turn a profit with them unless you have huge footfall, more than a gaming area will ever have. Even workplace vending machines with 40-odd employees barely pay for the rental of the machine. Just get down the cash-and-carry for some crates of coke and boxes of crisps and mars bars.

Thanks for all the replies guys. I've passed this thread on to him and told him to have a look at it, theres plenty of arguments for and against, so its nice to have something to weigh up the options.

To be honest, I was somewhat worried that there would be a 'nationality divide' showing up where for instance the whole issue of tipping would come up... I know its been argued to death elsewhere on the internet, but theres always the view that the english are bad tippers because its just not custom and practice over here... same with free fill ups for drinks, there arent many places I know of in the UK that offer that, in fact the drinks are where most eateries make their money.

I was trying to figure out if there was something of the same with regards to the room rental issue as a uk/america divide (sorry for all other nationalities out there that I've not included in that statement) where for instance the brits, who are used to seeing prices creep gradually upwards as things such as additonal warranties and services were added to the advertised cost would stomach the cost a bit more than the americans, who were used to paying more for service type situations (i.e. tipping waiters) but physical things, such as for instance fillups and 'added extras' would always presume it was free.

(of course, the analogy of the brits and extended warranties is pretty much irrelevant as well, as im sure that happens in america too, and you're more often than not a mug if you pay for it... but lets not get too far off topic)

Well, you probably have seen this, but something I've read a fair amount on is the gaming model. Many American gamers (with access to LGS) accept in-store play as a kind of norm. Brits seem to be more club-oriented, holding games at each other's houses or meeting halls that folks band together and pay for----again, based solely on what I've read and seen.

The sale of non-prep foods that don't require food handlers licenses/certs (like cooking things would require in US) is something I've seen commonly done. Easier and cheaper to buy a box of candy bars and some bulk cartons of canned soda that you sell individually at the counter than the expensive vending machine.

CT GAMER wrote:

mikhaila wrote:
QFT. The store owner/employees are now in an adversarial role towards their customers, trying to collect money from them for something most of them consider should be free.

Paying for use of space and materials should never be assumed free, especially in a buisness/service industry environment.

Many LGS allow free use of game space becase they are afraid not to or are bullied into it, not because it "should" be free. Big difference.

I think all resturants should give me free refills because my local favorite does...

I think the local paintball range should let me use their fields for free because after all I support them by buying my gear form them...

I think the mall parking garage should be free, afetr all I buy my stuff there...

etc., etc.

What we want as consumers and what we deserve or have a right to demand are too different things. Unfortunatly the average LGS is so held hostage by it's customers that it is often forced to go along with all manner of things that make no buisness sense whatsoever in a attempt to appease whatever narrow revenue stream it has...

Difference is.... I can, as many folks, just as easily play at home and shop in my fuzzy slippers on the net for models.

What advantage does a store have that shopping online doesnt? What would actually bring me into YOUR store, to pay full pop(or perhaps even witha 10% discount)?

Playing space. Its really the ONLY advantage a store has. If you take that away from the LGS, there is no reason to ever enter a gaming store. I can get advice on biulding and playing online. I can get painting advice....online. Tutorials, online. I can even meet and set up playing online(its how I got together with my RPG group). I can travel places to tournments.

Why should I go to your store, CT GAMER? What possible reason is there to draw me in, if your going to charge me for playing time? I already belong to a wargaming group who doesnt play at a store, as our dues cover rental of space monthly thats strickly playing- wall to wall tables, painting station, etc.....

Attitudes like yours, and other crappy games LGS have played lead to it.


So tell me CT GAMER, how will you get people in? Whats the advantage to charging to play? Whats your advantage over just shopping online?

CT GAMER wrote:

mikhaila wrote:
QFT. The store owner/employees are now in an adversarial role towards their customers, trying to collect money from them for something most of them consider should be free.

Paying for use of space and materials should never be assumed free, especially in a buisness/service industry environment.

Many LGS allow free use of game space becase they are afraid not to or are bullied into it, not because it "should" be free. Big difference.

I think all resturants should give me free refills because my local favorite does...

I think the local paintball range should let me use their fields for free because after all I support them by buying my gear form them...

I think the mall parking garage should be free, afetr all I buy my stuff there...

etc., etc.

What we want as consumers and what we deserve or have a right to demand are too different things. Unfortunatly the average LGS is so held hostage by it's customers that it is often forced to go along with all manner of things that make no buisness sense whatsoever in a attempt to appease whatever narrow revenue stream it has...

I think you are missing the fundamental point I try to make:

"If you are a store, and trying to make a profit, then you will make more money, buy having a great gaming store, and providing the service to your customers of free gaming space."

It's that simple. A store will make more money doing this simple stategy. Think of it as a game. Would you do things in a game to annoy your opponent, and lose?

The game that I play is: Have such a great store that I can suck every last quarter out of your pocket, drain your credit card, piss off your wife, and then have you thank me.

The bullied part makes me laugh. Bullied into doing the correct thing for their business? Bullied into not making decisions that would hurt their business? HA. Bully me some more, please.

mikhaila wrote:

I think you are missing the fundamental point I try to make:

"If you are a store, and trying to make a profit, then you will make more money, buy having a great gaming store, and providing the service to your customers of free gaming space."

It's that simple. A store will make more money doing this simple stategy. Think of it as a game. Would you do things in a game to annoy your opponent, and lose?

The game that I play is: Have such a great store that I can suck every last quarter out of your pocket, drain your credit card, piss off your wife, and then have you thank me.

The bullied part makes me laugh. Bullied into doing the correct thing for their business? Bullied into not making decisions that would hurt their business? HA. Bully me some more, please.

Actually no, I completely understand your point. I really didnt mean to quote you in CT Gamers's nonsese. I understand your point completely. I'd go ever further to say if YOUR store were the one locally, I'd probably not be so hostile to LGS in general. But alas, I have had enough of Game store's nosense, and dont set foot in any anymore.

What I'm trying to do is get CTGamer to tell me what and why I would ever enter HIS type of store. Whats the advantage to going somewhere that charges full price for models AND charges for game space. WHy would I go there? He pisses and moans about "spoiled" gamers/customers, but he really represents the "spoiled" mentality of many game stores I've run into.

If you want me to support your store, ultimately you have to support me , so to speak. When the game store locally was run by, call'em old man Fred, I was definately a supporter, helped out when his staff didnt know stuff or even where stuff was and other items. And he was always willing to cut the tax or stuff when I was dropping $300 on stuff(thats $300 in GW stuff back in '98, when you got more for your money).

But alas, he broke up with his partner or sold out and the place isnt worth crossing the street to piss on if it was on fire now.

Carmachu, no worries, understood what you were saying. That was all aimed at CT Gamer, not you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I totally agree with your point of 'why go to CT gamers store?'. The simple act of making your regulars pay for space, turns them off so much they aren't your regulars anymore.

mikhaila wrote:Carmachu, no worries, understood what you were saying. That was all aimed at CT Gamer, not you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I totally agree with your point of 'why go to CT gamers store?'. The simple act of making your regulars pay for space, turns them off so much they aren't your regulars anymore.

Ah I see. Your doing the same thing I did.

I'm still waiting for CT's logic on why and what advantage he has for making a customer pay for playing space/privilages. At the old Neutral Ground in NYC, space was at an extreme premiuim. So paying a small fee to play all day, as there was no chance to play in one's apartment. But thats an extreme example.

Your average game store in a non-NYC setting, most people can play somewhere. SO I'm trying to understand WHY I would go to CT Gamer's game store, or what the hook is to entice me to walk in the door.

Howard A Treesong wrote:How about you fit a vending machine in there? Then the room is free, and they don't have to go far to get a drink/snack.

How about he buy a small fridge and stock sodas?

I'd pay to play here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_kZ9nhEYgc


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Make's me wish I was an aussie

Scott-S6 wrote:Charging just creates a negative attitude in the customers. Sell canned drinks, chocolate bars, crisps (chips to you americans) and you'll turn a good profit on the space.

Don't bother with vending machines - you'll never turn a profit with them unless you have huge footfall, more than a gaming area will ever have. Even workplace vending machines with 40-odd employees barely pay for the rental of the machine. Just get down the cash-and-carry for some crates of coke and boxes of crisps and mars bars.

Most major vendors don't charge you any rental fee for the machine. I made more monthly on Soda sales then any other single product in he store except GW.

And they deliver it to your door.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Two separate discussion going on here.

First: The LGS is a failed buisness model. Those that survive in this day and age are the exception to the rule.

They are trying to cater to a niche market that can find more for less on-line and who use this advantage to bully and threaten store owners into maintainign personal clubhouses for them.

The owner is in a catch-22 because he is trying to maintain a buisness that is flawed in concept to begin with and who can't afford to do much of anythign that challenges the status quo (despite that status quo leading to a failed buisness far more times then not) becasue of threats and fears of customer reprisals. Not a healthy situation to be in from a buisness perspective, but sadly is usually the case when it comes to game stores.

Most people utilise an LGS for impulse buying and becaue of the free gaming space not any true loyalty to said buisness on owners. That is evident by the attitudes expressed here.


So in short I wouldn't expect you to come to my store if you had one, and in this day and age I wouldn't choose to have one.

Heck I have a private club and a private game room that is far better stocked with terrain and tables then any LGS in my state. I felt I could build and mainatin a better game room then any local lgs and so have no need to travel to play I also prefer to not waste my time slumming it with the internet tough guys and cliques that form at most LGS. Product arrives from my on-line retailer of choice quickly and at discount to boot. So yes, why ever play at an LGS indeed...

All that being said the OP asked about charging for game space, and my stance is still that it is perfectly in an owners right to do so. And if I had an LGS that I frequented, respected, and whose terrain and space I utilized I would be more then happy to do so. Anyone who cops an attitude like those expresse din this thread about having a "right" to free gaming space is a grade a d-bag as far as I'm concerned. Just don't be surprised when the last of the LGS are gone...

CT GAMER wrote:
They are trying to cater to a niche market that can find more for less on-line and who use this advantage to bully and threaten store owners into maintainign personal clubhouses for them.

.......

Most people utilise an LGS for impulse buying and becaue of the free gaming space not any true loyalty to said buisness on owners. That is evident by the attitudes expressed here.

When I was living in UT I played at a FLGS with free gaming space. Every time I played there, if I didn't buy any models I'd be sure to buy paint or sodas or something. When I started playing a new game, I could have bought everything online for a discount, but I bought it at the FLGS instead. The reason I did this was because the owner provided a place for me to play for free, and went out of his way to make the store a place I wanted to be. Yeah, I was loyal to that store, as were a lot of his customers.

Anyway, just saying as a customer I agree with pretty much everything Mikhalia says here as an owner.

CT GAMER wrote:...Anyone who cops an attitude like those expresse din this thread about having a "right" to free gaming space is a grade a d-bag as far as I'm concerned. Just don't be surprised when the last of the LGS are gone...

Nobody said it was a right except you when you're talking about customers' reactions. People have said they wouldn't pay for play and I said I was fine with paying for play IF it was up front. I also said I would have no problems (at a pay-for-play store) with buying online any more because I am paying directly for the benefit of the space. I didn't see anyone saying it was a 'right', directly or indirectly.

It's also not surprising that players who have been granted the privilege of playing at a location and then have to pay-for-play due to LGS economics would be put off. I guarantee if the next time you went to Wal-Mart and they required a ticket for the privilege of parking in their lot or, say, 50 cents to use their pay toilets, you would be annoyed. People get used to things. Doesn't make 'em d'bags.

I personally would rather do the model you discuss where a group goes ala British playing style and just form a club and pitch in that way.

First: The LGS is a failed buisness model. Those that survive in this day and age are the exception to the rule.

They are trying to cater to a niche market that can find more for less on-line and who use this advantage to bully and threaten store owners into maintainign personal clubhouses for them.

The owner is in a catch-22 because he is trying to maintain a buisness that is flawed in concept to begin with and who can't afford to do much of anythign that challenges the status quo (despite that status quo leading to a failed buisness far more times then not) becasue of threats and fears of customer reprisals. Not a healthy situation to be in from a buisness perspective, but sadly is usually the case when it comes to game stores.

So your store failed, and you're bitter, and rather than blame yourself for the failure, it's easier to blame the customers and the 'failed business model'. Got it!

Sorry if I disagree. I've had gaming shops for 22 years. Good times, rough times. Still here. I'll be here 20 years from now. (No choice, somehow have a pair of identical twin girls, and it's 14 years until they even start colledge!)

My 'clubhouse' is 2200 square feet in a mall, with 9k in rent. We also have a 2500 square foot gaming area we also rent from the mall. I have 24 GW tournaments scheduled in the next year, with lots of support from GW. ( I like to 'challenge the status quo' I guess).

I absolutely do cater to a niche market. But because I do cater to them, they support me, and my stores are still open.

You have an opinion on whether or not to charge for gaming space. The OP can choose to ignore the overwhelming response from gamers, and from someone who runs stores, or take the advice of the bitter guy who doesn't have a store, buys on line, and plays in his basement.

mikhaila wrote:

I absolutely do cater to a niche market. But because I do cater to them, they support me, and my stores are still open.

You have an opinion on whether or not to charge for gaming space. The OP can choose to ignore the overwhelming response from gamers, and from someone who runs stores, or take the advice of the bitter guy who doesn't have a store, buys on line, and plays in his basement.

Ultimately, Milhaila seems to be the one FLGS owner that actually gets it, that I've run across, but sadly dont see around me at all anymore. Whether its GW, PP, RPG's, CCG's.


If you want my support, you have to give me support. Telling me open gaming for 40k is Wensday's from 6-9pm only isnt support. Having no wargmaing on the weekend isnt support. No model selection isnt support. Charging me on top of it to play definately isnt support.

You really sound like an old bitter game store owner CT Gamer.

I think I'll go with Mikhaila on this one. If the FLGS was a failed business model, there wouldn't be any. Simple as that. However, there are many FLGS's across the globe. You tend to find at least one in every major city. There have many people in this thread chipping in with how they support their local store. I'm pretty sure they didn't invent the existence of their flgs for the sole purpose of contradicting your opinion. Not only that, I'm pretty sure they don't 'threaten' the owner.

With an attitude like 'What we want as consumers and what we deserve or have a right to demand are too different things', I can see perfectly well why your store failed. I don't think I'd want to shop there.

Gamers in general DO NOT PAY hourly rates to play, ANYWHERE.

As to special events, tournaments, special battle rates, etc. Hell yes. We pay for things of that nature. But just to walk in to a room with a couple of tables, and think someone is going to pay is not knowing the customer base.

Alternative ideas to genrate cash flow-

Monthly tournys.

Painting contests.

Special planetary campaigns.

War!!!

Club recruiting nights.

Special Events renting.

Introductory Gaming and painting classes.

Modeling and game system classes.

Weekly gaming special events.

Cherity events.

Beginners club.

Veterans Swap Meets.

Gaming Yard/Garage Sales- (Think you guys over the pond call them boot sales.)

Special events such as guest stars, artists, or special appearences.

Basicly you put events together to make customers WANT to come to the store for something special.

A room with a couple of tables and nothing else and you think someone wants to pay?Hmmm...

In all seriousness, I would want to pay if you had a room full of tables with different scenery styles on them, with different adventure hooks to them, with a couplf of different GAme Masters , throughout the game area with a elaborate battle system where each of the tables interrelate, and scenery would have something to do with the adventure.

I saw this system at an undisclosed location. It not only drew serious crowds, it drew a local television station for a bit on the evening news...

Example, ( D Day Invasion of planet X)

Planetery assult on the whole map. The gaming starts at 0900 on a Saturday, and the war will last until Sunday at 1700.
Choosing up sides, introductory briefings, and initial planning stages from 09-1000

Each side needs an overall commander, and force subcommanders. They all have an initial planetary assult on random tables. Maybe some get one tqalbe, makbe others get the same tables, whatever.
The tables have different types of terraign, maybe Table 1- Urban Center, Table 2- Jungle, Table 3, Desert/ wasteland, Table 4-mountain pass, Table 5- Chaosscape

Each table has a game master/ Judge who will throw in different things such as Air strikes, Maybe a random unit, maybe some civilinas, maybe some special events that will give out something like prizes, or some special edge.
The game master serves as a judge and go between for the diferent tables that will interact with each other. ( Maybe the artillery is on one side of the room, then the units on the other side of the room want an artillery berrage. Mayeb you have a titan battle going on and random stray shots are flying all over the room to the different tables.)

Basicly FOG OF WAR action throughout the war.
For the battles, the games last two or thre turns, then advance, or not depending on the ebb and flow of the battle. You make the terraign the 3d radnodm player in the battle with the addition of wandering animals, units, deserters, or cultists, maybe you get a couple of objective markerts that react to the battle. ( You get to Objective 273 and find a decimated IG squad, you either save it, or capture it, giving you access to a platoon of reinforcemnts for your next battle, or they have access to a vehicle that will join you in the next turn.

Give a grand prize at the end of the campaign, or give out battlefield commendations to the winners and losers, and make yourself some photos, and hang them up like old school WW2 pictures of the battle, or make collages of the different battles. ( The battle of Ardennes 234, The War for the Urr, Orks Drift, etc.)

Give returning players incentives, such as additional access to special perks.
such as - A guy comes in for his first battle, he gets a basic army. A guy comes in for his sixth, he gets acess to D10 baneblade strikes for the duration of the battle.

ETC ETC ETC.

I played in a gamestore where I had access to running random monsters around on tables in opposition to adventureres. I ended up using a trapped cottage as a honey pit where I would lead random gullible people to thier doom.- Same concept, but the plaers ran small skermish level battles throughout the day.

Necromunda and Mordhiem work excellently for this as well.

"Privledge" does not enter the conversation in a game store. A game store is supposed to be the hub of gaming, when you push the hub as this idea does, it will only end up next door, or down the street at the local library, and you will become the local gaming joke who actually has no idea of your local areas gaming interests.

You WANT costumers. Do stuff that brings them to you.

If not, why even open up a gaming store?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CT GAMER wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:Charging just creates a negative attitude in the customers. Sell canned drinks, chocolate bars, crisps (chips to you americans) and you'll turn a good profit on the space.

Don't bother with vending machines - you'll never turn a profit with them unless you have huge footfall, more than a gaming area will ever have. Even workplace vending machines with 40-odd employees barely pay for the rental of the machine. Just get down the cash-and-carry for some crates of coke and boxes of crisps and mars bars.

Most major vendors don't charge you any rental fee for the machine. I made more monthly on Soda sales then any other single product in he store except GW.

And they deliver it to your door.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Two separate discussion going on here.

First: The LGS is a failed buisness model. Those that survive in this day and age are the exception to the rule.

They are trying to cater to a niche market that can find more for less on-line and who use this advantage to bully and threaten store owners into maintainign personal clubhouses for them.

The owner is in a catch-22 because he is trying to maintain a buisness that is flawed in concept to begin with and who can't afford to do much of anythign that challenges the status quo (despite that status quo leading to a failed buisness far more times then not) becasue of threats and fears of customer reprisals. Not a healthy situation to be in from a buisness perspective, but sadly is usually the case when it comes to game stores.

Most people utilise an LGS for impulse buying and becaue of the free gaming space not any true loyalty to said buisness on owners. That is evident by the attitudes expressed here.


So in short I wouldn't expect you to come to my store if you had one, and in this day and age I wouldn't choose to have one.

Heck I have a private club and a private game room that is far better stocked with terrain and tables then any LGS in my state. I felt I could build and mainatin a better game room then any local lgs and so have no need to travel to play I also prefer to not waste my time slumming it with the internet tough guys and cliques that form at most LGS. Product arrives from my on-line retailer of choice quickly and at discount to boot. So yes, why ever play at an LGS indeed...

All that being said the OP asked about charging for game space, and my stance is still that it is perfectly in an owners right to do so. And if I had an LGS that I frequented, respected, and whose terrain and space I utilized I would be more then happy to do so. Anyone who cops an attitude like those expresse din this thread about having a "right" to free gaming space is a grade a d-bag as far as I'm concerned. Just don't be surprised when the last of the LGS are gone...

I don't think i can agree with this sentiment.

Gamers who bully the store?

Where is this happening at?

It isn't about rights, its about developing an atmosphere that caters to a clientel. The clientel then WANTS to spend money on hobby and gaming.
They will do it willingly, as well, as long as you cultivate a common interest.

Alienate them at your own and your stores peril.

Have you ever been to a game store like the one you are describing? How long did it stay in buisness, before it caved in?

Grot 6 wrote:
said lots of stuff

But that sounds like WORK!

Lomar4976 wrote:

Having looked into a vending machine, he says that the rentals are way too pricey for the expected return, no companies were willing to offer any trials and wanted to tie him down to a fixed term (usually 12 month minimum) contract.
If theres anyone knows of any companies that were willing to offer shorter term (3 month or so) contracts based in the UK as a trial then please let me know so I can pass it on, as its something he wanted to try from day 1, just found it impractical on a limited budget.

What my FLGS does is they purchase a small variety of snacks cfrom a distributor and just put them on a typical rack in the store, no vending machine. It seems to do very well. He also rents a cooler that he stocks with drinks.

mikhaila wrote:First: The LGS is a failed buisness model. Those that survive in this day and age are the exception to the rule.

They are trying to cater to a niche market that can find more for less on-line and who use this advantage to bully and threaten store owners into maintainign personal clubhouses for them.

The owner is in a catch-22 because he is trying to maintain a buisness that is flawed in concept to begin with and who can't afford to do much of anythign that challenges the status quo (despite that status quo leading to a failed buisness far more times then not) becasue of threats and fears of customer reprisals. Not a healthy situation to be in from a buisness perspective, but sadly is usually the case when it comes to game stores.

So your store failed, and you're bitter, and rather than blame yourself for the failure, it's easier to blame the customers and the 'failed business model'. Got it!

Sorry if I disagree. I've had gaming shops for 22 years. Good times, rough times. Still here. I'll be here 20 years from now. (No choice, somehow have a pair of identical twin girls, and it's 14 years until they even start colledge!)

My 'clubhouse' is 2200 square feet in a mall, with 9k in rent. We also have a 2500 square foot gaming area we also rent from the mall. I have 24 GW tournaments scheduled in the next year, with lots of support from GW. ( I like to 'challenge the status quo' I guess).

Yeah Mikhalia you would be the exception to t he rule that I mentioned, though you might have missed that point in your rush to pat yourself on the back.

For every store as apparaently successful as you I would wager there are hundreds more barely scraping by and many scores that have come and gone in the time you have been in existance. I have lived in four stats in the past twenty years and can't count on my fingers and toes any more the stores just in the places i lived that have come and gone, and the friends and internet sources from all around the globe regularly report likewise.

Suggesting that because you have managed to be successful that the typical LGS format is a sound buisness model is like a lottery winner saying that the lottery involves no luck and that most people don't lose when partaking in it...

One thing CT Gamer has said is correct, for every successful store there are hundreds more barley scraping by. I believe all the gaming stores in my small city of 80 000 have gone bye bye. The 2 comic stores that did sell GW stuff don't do it anymore.

Mini's or gaming stores is not a viable buisness these days. I guess location is a major place to be successful.

And if you look at the resturant and bar business, it's just as bad. Does that make resturants and bars a bad business model.

Yes, a lot of small and poorly run game stores come and go on a regular basis. I'm part of a group of retailers that tutors new and wannabe game store owners, and in several national retail groups. There are a lot of very good game stores out there. Many of them much older than my 20 years. The common factor they all have is very good customer service.

Expand your theory a bit:

-Crappy little underfunded game stores = bad resturant or bar = doesn't last long.
-Good well stocked game store with good customer service = resturant with good food and service = lasts for years.

Part of the good service for game stores is providing gaming space and not charging for it.

Davor: Location, Location, Location. Still the most important 3 things in starting a business. And right now, you're correct, many game/comic/hobby stores are scraping by. But that hold true for a vast majority of all businesses. The economy, unemployment, and lack of funding is killing much more than game stores. I make less now working 70 hours a week than I did 10 years ago working 35 hours a week.

To combat the problems other stores are having, I, (and many other good game stores), are working longer hours, bringing in new product lines, adding more organized play and game space, running more demo games, and working on ways to give better customer service to our customers. Nothing focuses and refines your retailing skills like a crappy economy.) Right now, most people equate success in business with just surviving.

1. I think a nominal fee of $1-4 for the day is reasonable and if a store had quality tables and terrain and kept the space clean and odor free I would pay it without question.

Alright, maybe if my store had all of that then I'd be inclined to agree...

But felt is not terrain. As long as I'm playing with felt forests and rivers I'm not paying a dime, sorry.

I worked at a comic and gaming shop for 7 years.

Free gaming space is pretty important, and there are ways to make up that revenue. One of the easiest ways, as people have been saying, is sell beverage and snacks. During your tournaments, sell pizza. Charge for tournaments, and then have four or five tournaments a week.

The people who would pay for gaming space are right. Certainly, if you're paying rent on the space, and people are using the space, the space should be used to make money. Not to mention, if you're investing time and money in building a great gaming space, you should expect to get something back for it. But charging for time is a huge turnoff and a pain in the ass, and you'll lose a lot of business doing it.

BTW, I've been to Mikhaila's store (and I believe he has several, actually) and it's AWESOME. If I lived in his area, I'd be there all the time.

Keep track of your players and if somebody's a jerk, talk to them, and kick them out if you have to. You don't need to put up a sign of acceptable behaviors, people should just be expected not to be a schmuck, and the warning system does the job.

I'm not sure why it's an either/or situation. Granted, I don't know how much room you have, but I could definitely see the merits of both and wonder why not have both free tables, and perhaps a reservation table in a back or different room people could pay to rent. I know I'd like the option.

That assumes, of course, you're delivering an actual value, as in stuff "I can't get at mine or a friends house" - good scenery and lighting, not a lot of clutter, certainly no drone hovering, etc.

Would I pay to game at a store? Could be if you can rent a table for a suitable time (say for instance 3 hours) at a decent price. The store could have a mix of regular tables (free, table-top quality terrain) and premium tables (better quality of terrain and accessories, available on rent only), meaning you could book a table ahead of time and be sure to play with a friend/staff member. Gaming time drops significantly when you have a family, and nothing's worse than squeezing in an afternoon's time of gaming after a tough negotiation with the boss wife only to realize that every table is occupied and won't be available on time.
Would I pay to game at a store I play at every week? No if it's an hourly-daily rate, yes if this is akin to a membership fee.

Gaming space also has a larger perceived value if
- your apartment is too small to cater for a decent-sized gaming table without sending your family off for the evening
- you don't have a regular gaming group, and have difficulties finding people to play with.

Bottom line, if the store has a pay-to-game policy, customers have to see added value in the service offered.

mattyboy22 wrote:

Lomar4976 wrote:

Having looked into a vending machine, he says that the rentals are way too pricey for the expected return, no companies were willing to offer any trials and wanted to tie him down to a fixed term (usually 12 month minimum) contract.
If theres anyone knows of any companies that were willing to offer shorter term (3 month or so) contracts based in the UK as a trial then please let me know so I can pass it on, as its something he wanted to try from day 1, just found it impractical on a limited budget.

What my FLGS does is they purchase a small variety of snacks cfrom a distributor and just put them on a typical rack in the store, no vending machine. It seems to do very well. He also rents a cooler that he stocks with drinks.

This. Screw a vending machine. Get a couple fridges and freezers and stock them with ice cream and energy drinks. My FLGS makes most of its side revenue by selling snacks and the like. Gamers get the munchies and wargaming takes alot of energy, cater to the most basic needs. They also have a card where you get 5% return on everything you buy. Kinda like a cash card rewards program.

Granted I'm in the land of wee houses where everyone is overcharged for everything, but I might pay. But what I'd expect in exchange for paying a non-trivial fee might be well beyond what it's worth.

I'd expect the space to be immaculate. I'd expect good terrain, good lighting, and things like dice and whippy sticks availible. I'd expect routine and well-planned events that fit into my schedule and allow me to meet the kinds of players I want to play with, while allowing me to avoid the players I don't.

That probably sounds unreasonable. But it's what I'd expect for paying. Because if I pay, then suddenly it's a service.

And if mikhaila opened his store in my corner of the rising sun, I'd dump your store's pay-for-table faster than you can say "Dakka".

9K rent for a store of approx 2200 sq feet...

In the UK in any decent Shopping Mall you could possbly pay that a week.

I would not pay to game in a store where there are others that will let me pay for free. Also as previously mentioned you don't need a vending machine to sell snacks. Vending machines are for places where no one bothers to monitor them, your buddy will be at the counter correct? Therefore the candy can be up front and he can keep an eye on said candy.

Also, holding some events, like painting tutorials as previously mentioned and similiar things, would gain attention for the store. I don't know your friend's exact situation, but I feel like he needs to be at least a bit more patient or use methods that are less aggressive...for now.

I've not read the whole thread but i'm going to be opening a store in the near future.
I will be charging people to play on the tables. Although not a huge amount.
I will be providing a comfortable environment with good scenery tables and gaming accessories, food, toilets, heating, electric and staffing until 10pm most nights of the week.
Rents, services and rates on large properties are expensive and need to be covered.
I am not a charity!

Alex,

have you created a detailed and realistic business plan?

For many gamers opening a store is a dream.. but the realities are going to be a shock for almost everyone.

Alex Kolodotschko wrote:I've not read the whole thread but i'm going to be opening a store in the near future.
I will be charging people to play on the tables. Although not a huge amount.
I will be providing a comfortable environment with good scenery tables and gaming accessories, food, toilets, heating, electric and staffing until 10pm most nights of the week.
Rents, services and rates on large properties are expensive and need to be covered.
I am not a charity!

The question is, will you gain or lose money by charging for tables? One person deciding not to buy a product at your store, but rather online, cancels out many hours of people paying for tables. Free tables also encourages people to hang out and play games more, making them inclined to buy stuff/food while they are there and gain store loyalty.

Yup, the business plan, building and funding are all in place.
Just crossing Is and dotting the Ts. Then onto the refit, yay!!!
I know that it's going to be hard work but I like a challenge!

Will I gain or lose money by charging? Who knows?
My store is going to start with 15 tables and has space to expand up to 30+ so it does start to add up to be a fair chunk of money.

Are you selling product at a discount?

Alex,

I wish you well but I see alot of wishful thinking in a plan that isnt sure about charging for space.

What do you think the best gaming store in the country turnover is at retail?
I bet you its a lot less than you have estimated.

Hasdrubal wrote: (snip) The store could have a mix of regular tables (free, table-top quality terrain) and premium tables (better quality of terrain and accessories, available on rent only), meaning you could book a table ahead of time and be sure to play with a friend/staff member. (snip)

One of the value-adds I could see would be essentially gaming tutoring - not aimed at newbies (that had better be free because that's the biggest revenue generator you have) but at the hungry upper midlevel player who wants some help polishing their strats and lists.

In the UK people pay for gaming space, at church halls, pub function rooms, the Wargames Holiday Centre and so on.

mikhaila wrote:From the point of veiw of someone who's had game stores for 20 years, and advised quite a few other people opening stores, I would advise to NOT charge for gaming space.

Put in the gaming area, keep it clean, decorate it, make killer scenery, and do what you can to make it a great place to play. And keep it free.

The money you make from sales of games will far, far exceed what you might get from charging for the space. It also puts you in the position to suuport your players, vs. chasing after them for an hourly fee.

I do things like running a free painting class every week, with free paint, basing materials, glue, and tools. Everyone paints, learns how to model, and then buys tons of paints, tools, and more things to paint. Better customer service makes your store better.

JMHO, but Don't charge.

Agreed! I have seen stores that charge to play go out of business many times.

G

IF you do get a vending machine you will have to be aggressive about keeping it on the ground or else people tend to spill or make cheeto foot prints everwhere

my opinion on charging for a gaming table is well.... I'd be forced to most gaming groups have an 18+ age thing or only meet during the week (I'm a student so it's not an option) but losing a game and then haveing to pay to lose it'd be like falling down then someone kicking you in the well...down there

my local FLGS (Wargames Heaven in Brighton) charges one pound for a game, unless yo ugot full membership, then yo udont have to pay. i didnt see that putting people off and nobody is asking you to pay, people just do it themselves. So I guess it all depends on the amount and how it is handled.

I wouldn't be happy if my FLGS charged me to play, but that's mostly down to the fact that I'm the one who makes the board and terrain for them

Green Blow Fly wrote:


Agreed! I have seen stores that charge to play go out of business many times.

G

Correlation does not equal causation.

Most of those stores would have gone out of buisness if they didnt charge. Every store i have personally known of that has gone out of buisness didn't charge to play.

Most stores don't charge. many of them still go under...

This debate has run it's course really, so I shall bow out. Mikhaila's camp is the dominate viewpoint and will likely remain so (why would anyone want to pay for something they expect and have been getting for free) and most store owners will go along with it, the one's that stay open that is...

I would not go to a store that charged me money to play unless it was really the only game in town. I feel like, by going to a store, I am already paying extra for my stuff compared what I could get online, and this extra charge should cover the use of store resources. I am fine with paying money for tournaments or events that require organizers, increased store space, etc. but not for just playing a pick-up game. Besides, having people play helps the store.

I would find alternate ways of handling any "fees" he may want to collect.

A minimalist approach might just be a spare change donation box bolted to each tables corner.

Or he could simply create and host that upstairs as a "club space," collecting a one time fee to use that space as opposed to another gaming area.

Have very basic terrain available, with nicer pieces for a fee.

Either way he shouldn't expect much.

If he is insistent on collecting an hourly fee or a per use fee, he should look at providing as many benefits as possible. For example there are days where I would pay, just to not have to sit or play around the kids. Make it an adult area. Guaranteed reserved times. Comfortable chairs. Provide spare dice and tape measures. A number of snacks and beverages. Some of these things stores do for free and make generally available, but its a luxury and maybe some people will bite. Its just not going to be a money maker.


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Fetterkey wrote:I would not go to a store that charged me money to play unless it was really the only game in town. I feel like, by going to a store, I am already paying extra for my stuff compared what I could get online, and this extra charge should cover the use of store resources. I am fine with paying money for tournaments or events that require organizers, increased store space, etc. but not for just playing a pick-up game. Besides, having people play helps the store.

I largely agree with your sentiment, but just to play devils advocate... from a philosphical stand point is it fair to demand the use of store space for entertainment beyond your purchase? You would never got to an EB, Best Buy, or Walmart buy a video game or movie and expect to be able to enjoy it on those premises. Why then a table top game store? While it helps their sales of certain products there is no way to say how much money they're losing by having the available space as opposed to additional merchandise shelves. Its lost opportunity in favor of potential sales boosting. One might try and make the arguement that their sales margin makes it implicit that they would assist you in using the product... much like heroine addicts who have the shakes... but it isn't implicit to the transaction. This demanded for an implicit right to play in store falls apart when you consider that many players don't buy their miniatrues in store but do so online. Went into the local store this weekend 3 of the 4 tyranids players ordered all their new stuff instead of buying it at the store, despite it being the same price.

Its easy to take a store for granted till its gone. When people start to neglect this unwritten rule of mutual benefit, its no surprise store would want to look else where for supplemental revenue.

If I was going to pay to play the tables had better be a hell of alot better than what I've built in my basement, and I've built a very nice table, with carpet and padding and bar stools all around it. A shop light directly above the table and multiple places to set "dead" or reserve mini's.

I've built all of that for about 40 bucks(thank you resale shops), or 10 hours of gaming at the suggested rates I've seen which is what 1 Apocalypse game?

Don't get me wrong I'm a huge HUGE supporter of my local LGSs I host tournaments 4 times a year in different ones and make sure the prizes are Gift Cards for that particular store...I could give out cash but I want the stores to survive. But if there was one trying to charge for table time, I don't know that I could get behind supporting that kind of thing with a tournament.

wardancer wrote:my local FLGS (Wargames Heaven in Brighton) charges one pound for a game, unless yo ugot full membership, then yo udont have to pay. i didnt see that putting people off and nobody is asking you to pay, people just do it themselves. So I guess it all depends on the amount and how it is handled.

really when did that change? and whats with loads of us being in brighton for some reason?

seriously last time i was in their it was £5 a year (or the year membership) and something more than £1 a play.

CT GAMER wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:Charging just creates a negative attitude in the customers. Sell canned drinks, chocolate bars, crisps (chips to you americans) and you'll turn a good profit on the space.

Don't bother with vending machines - you'll never turn a profit with them unless you have huge footfall, more than a gaming area will ever have. Even workplace vending machines with 40-odd employees barely pay for the rental of the machine. Just get down the cash-and-carry for some crates of coke and boxes of crisps and mars bars.

Most major vendors don't charge you any rental fee for the machine. I made more monthly on Soda sales then any other single product in he store except GW.

And they deliver it to your door.

This may be different in the US. In the UK vending machine suppliers want to keep the profit from the sales to cover the machine. Unless the machine is doing huge amounts you won't make anything from it. The best deal I managed to get was that they would keep the profit from the drinks machine and I would keep the profit from the snack machine. Not great.

Definately best to just sell them out of a fridge at first. If sales are so good that it's creating a problem at the checkout then it might be time to look at vending machines. At least then you'll have sales figures to use as a bargining tool.

aka_mythos wrote:You would never got to an EB, Best Buy, or Walmart buy a video game or movie and expect to be able to enjoy it on those premises. Why then a table top game store?

But I wouldn't go to an EB, Best Buy, or Walmart at all-- I'd just buy online.

Let's be frank, the only real reason to go to a tabletop game store is for the sense of community there. Online stores have better deals, are almost never out of stock, and offer items that most stores can't get. If you are just looking for the best bargain on your models, you aren't going to find it at a game store. However, people call 'em FLGSs for a reason. When I had a store in my area, I would go there to buy *everything* hobby-related, just because I liked the store. The friendly environment there was enough for me to become a devoted customer. I could have easily got a better deal online, but there was something about going down to that store that really appealed to me. If a gaming store can't offer a sense of community to me, though, I don't see any reason that I should take my business there.

Game stores really don't have much to offer in comparison to online retailers when it comes to prices, so they have to beat them on other grounds. Charging for table time, in my opinion, really goes against the atmosphere that a gaming store should be trying to cultivate, and would definitely drive my business away.

Fetterkey wrote:Game stores really don't have much to offer in comparison to online retailers when it comes to prices, so they have to beat them on other grounds. Charging for table time, in my opinion, really goes against the atmosphere that a gaming store should be trying to cultivate, and would definitely drive my business away.

Doesn't leave them with many other ways of making money now does it? Coffeshop perhaps?
Many customers aren't as decent as you and will continue to buy online AND use your facilities.

There are ways to charge for services without changing the spirit of community. Call it a donation and you're gold!

twistinthunder wrote:

wardancer wrote:my local FLGS (Wargames Heaven in Brighton) charges one pound for a game, unless yo ugot full membership, then yo udont have to pay. i didnt see that putting people off and nobody is asking you to pay, people just do it themselves. So I guess it all depends on the amount and how it is handled.

really when did that change? and whats with loads of us being in brighton for some reason?

seriously last time i was in their it was £5 a year (or the year membership) and something more than £1 a play.

Its all on their website- it was always 1 quid a game with £5 membership and nothing with £25 membership. Saying that nobody EVER asked me for money there, people just come to the till and pay so obviously its not that bad?
I dont get thr part with "loads of us being in Brighton for some reason? yo umean wargamers?

All I can say is that in the St. Louis region we pay nothing to play. But, if you are starting new armies you have to buy them from the store you play at.

See my LGS gives a 20% discount on all GWS products...so I dont HAVE to go online to buy, in fact its cheaper for me not to (no taxes)

Y'know what I just realized? There's a better way to charge for gaming space at your buddy's store without really saying it upfront. Simply create a membership which grants said member priority access to gaming space. If all the tables are filled they have the ability to kick a non member off one of the tables. They could also have the ability to reserve space ahead of time. You kind of create an illusion of scarcity by doing this.

Essentially you're saying "You can play here, but if a member comes you have to jet" up front and encourage people to buy membership. You can include more benefits later on and say that to possible members as well.

How do you handle it when members play on the table and members show up to play?

malfred wrote:How do you handle it when members play on the table and members show up to play?

Length of standing as a member, of course

Sgt.Sunshine wrote: If all the tables are filled they have the ability to kick a non member off one of the tables. They could also have the ability to reserve space ahead of time.

This is going to lead to to some pretty weird situations. First, as a paying member, I'd feel bad about kicking people off the table mid-game, and I'd also feel bad about how I'd paid to do something I'd never really feel comfortable doing. No win there, unless you're a jerk. If I were a non-member, and someone who paid to be a member kicked me off a table mid game, I wouldn't feel like "wow, I should buy a membership" - I'd feel like "well, this is their private little club, I'd better go elsewhere and never return".

Dropping a "reserved" note on a table at the time it's been reserved seems more fair, like at a restaurant.

If you had members with longer standing kicking off other paying members (who paid the same amount!) for the same tables, I'd fight for a refund, and never return again.

privateer4hire wrote:

malfred wrote:How do you handle it when members play on the table and members show up to play?

Length of standing as a member, of course

Sounds like a good way to make people bitter at your store policy and not come back.

"Hey, we're haldway through a 2000 pt game here. We'll be done in an hour."
"Sorry, I joined a week before you, so I'm kicking you off and playing my game, you have 10 minutes to pack."


A much better idea is to let people reserve the table for a certain time, for a fee. If you just show up and there's an empty table you can play, but reserved tables will have a marker on them saying "reserved from 2pm-5pm, all games must end here by 1:30".

Or something!

Okay fine you whiners, a solution would be to have the majority of tables listed as members only and a limited amount for free. Therefore members have access to more tables, the ability to reserve those tables ahead of time, and...whatever other benefit you'd like to throw in...Free members on the other hand would have a limited out of space and would be on "first come first serve" policy.

That's a solution? :B

I've played games in a few stores with gaming space that was for members only - they used to do late night (fri/sat nights) gaming sessions.

If you wanted to take part, you were charged a membership fee (one off) which also gave you an instore discount (a further 5% off their already RRP-10% prices).

Roleplaying sessions were charged at $5 per person per session (5-6 hours) which covered power usage and potential damages from accidents.

Nobody ever complained. They had access to cheap drinks and food. They had a place to store their stuff (lockers). They had a guaranteed safe place free from harassment to play their games (the store was locked up downstairs - to get in, you had to dial up or be there when they were letting people in).

If it was some kind of special club, I'd pay... especially if there was an age limit involved (say 18+).

If it was just standard gaming space... at least in the U.S., most people would balk at paying for it. I know I would. But it does sound to me like it might be different elsewhere... I'd love to hear how it goes for him after he gets more established.

chromedog wrote:I've played games in a few stores with gaming space that was for members only - they used to do late night (fri/sat nights) gaming sessions.

If you wanted to take part, you were charged a membership fee (one off) which also gave you an instore discount (a further 5% off their already RRP-10% prices).

That sounds decent to me.

Alex Kolodotschko wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Game stores really don't have much to offer in comparison to online retailers when it comes to prices, so they have to beat them on other grounds. Charging for table time, in my opinion, really goes against the atmosphere that a gaming store should be trying to cultivate, and would definitely drive my business away.

Doesn't leave them with many other ways of making money now does it? Coffeshop perhaps?
Many customers aren't as decent as you and will continue to buy online AND use your facilities.

There are ways to charge for services without changing the spirit of community. Call it a donation and you're gold!

I actually see very little of that. If you have what a customer wants sitting in front of him, he usually buys it. This means stores need to keep things in stock, and multiples of better selling items. Out of stock means no one is buying it, and online may become an option, even if they did want to buy from their FLGS.

A good selection and lots of gamers in a store produces sales, and those sales outweigh any amount of money you might have gotten chasing after each gamer for a couple of bucks.

Nice to see that this thread is still going (I couldnt get here yesterday) and hopefully he's read the varying viewpoints by now (I've not heard from him since I sent him the link)

Once again, thanks for your contributions all.

Lomar, also have him check out this site:

http://forums.delphiforums.com/gamestore/start

This is a site to help new game store owners, and wannabe game store owners. Many older store owners answering questions and giving advice.

so a thought that may be a little off or mentioned already, instead of charging for play, why not charge to reserve the table at a certain time? or for a day? say I know a friend and I only have sunday off, and we want to get together and play that day, since you are in the uk, charge 5 pound for the table reservation at noon and it expires say at 3pm, that is unless you come and claim your reservation. I know I would use this on a favorite table, and heck you could make it a bid system, if someone else wants the table charge them 6 pound and give the first guy his money back, but the trick about that is the first guy needs to understand this little part about it.

I don't know just think into the keyboard I guess.

I just re-read the OP's original post, and something occurs. Lomar, you said that the owner is considering letting out the upstairs room of a shop out to rent. If that's the case, then there's a solution that doesn't hack off customers.

Set up two gaming table in the lower part of the storefront which are free for everyone to use. Give it some basic terrain, and make them unreservable. This gives anyone who isn't a regular, or who might just be starting out a place to play, without creating any ill-will. Not only that, since there's the option of being able to actually play without paying, most of the naysayers in this thread (myself included) would be content.

Now here's the trick. You fill out the upstairs game room with the all the best boards and nicest terrain, a painting table, lockers, etc. Make sure you have at least 5 or 6 tables up there. Now if a customer wants to use that space, they have to be a member. (£5 a month?). The tables that are up there can be reserved ahead of time, and are clearly superior to the ones downstairs. Not only that, if you do not possess a membership card, you are not allowed up into the upstairs room. Not only that, but because you have to be a member to reserve a table, that alone should help encourage customers to get a membership.

As other members have said, perhaps an in-store discount for members as well, to encourage them to spend their money there?

And voila! Now I would pay to be a member, simply because it gives me access to so much better facilities. But because I'm under absolutely no obligation to be a member to actually play a game, I don't resent having to pay. In fact, in a situation like that, where you now have a separate space and everything, I'd probably sign up immediately, just because it lets me play a game with my mates whenever I want away from the general hubbub of the store downstairs.

What do you guys think. Would that settle it for you? Or would you still resent the owner for keeping the best facilities to paying members?

Gamer walks into the store:

"I'd like your finest battle of champagne, if you take my meaning."

"Of course, sir. Right this way, sir.

Put a settee and some chairs tv etc. as a waiting area.
Some people would pay just to get away from parents. and chill out

Note is this store opening in stoke on trent ?

JohnHwangDD wrote:If I'm going to pay for my gaming space, it'll be my garage, basement, or game room - not somebody else's place.

Indeed. This is why I bought a house with a basement.

I do like the "donation" jar idea though. I would make sure it is completely secure though. There are plenty of gamers who might liberate some for a drink or a snack.

absolutely not.

Local experience: We had a game store here in Maryland a few years ago. He didn't have a huge customer base and started getting into financial trouble.

He started a "club" that you had to pay to get in to play there.

The few people that were left bailed on him immediately and he was closed in 2 weeks.

Like I said before. I have a GW Store that's 10 minutes away from my house now. They're table space is always free. Not that I play there much. I paint there. I play maybe once a week at most. (escalation league and that's the first I've bothered since Current CSM came out)

If you're going to do a store local to me, to get my business you have to be:

1) on GW level for your staff as far as Customer Service, modeling and game knowledge etc.

2) beat Warstores prices.

3) free paint and game space.

Otherwise I'm just going to the mall and GW where I can hang out, paint and hit the mexican joint next door for dinner and a beer.

Read the other threads,

Like I said before. I have a GW Store that's 10 minutes away from my house now. They're table space is always free. Not that I play there much. I paint there.

soon that may not be an option


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Games Workshops New Business Model?

I'd have no issue paying for a place to play as long as you offered something beyond some bad terrain, cheap tables, and a couple chairs. I like the locker idea for folks to store stuff there. However, how would your insurance feel about it if the place were broken into? I like the idea of drinks, and snacks to recover some costs. Stores here buy stuff from Sam's club (Wal-Mart's brother) and gain some revenue that way.

Clubs only work if there is a true incentive reason to be a member. Look at places like Sam's or BJ's in the US, people pay to be members because there is a clear benefit. A game club with club dues will only work if it is incentivised. If the only benefit is something people have grown to just expect, you're only going to lose customers.

Here's another cat skinning method (if you agree with a pay for play model). It requires a modicum of easy book-keeping that places most responsibility on the customer to track.

Instead of custoemr buys x amt of merchandise to play for free that day, there is a nominal fee. Customer gives me two bucks and I give customer a gift certificate with today's date. To play you always have to have a current date gift certificate. Gift certificates are redeemable just like cash with no refunds. After five nights of gaming, he's banked up $10 of 'free' store credit that he can use to buy stuff with.

The customer now has an investment, albeit small, in the store. He's two bucks closer to buying that blister that's $10. It may even feel like he's basically getting the blister for only $8 since he had to pay $2 to play in the first place.

This could work in the shops and a young players interest.
Young timmy gets AOBR for christmas.

Two weeks later goes to mum " mum i need (insert price here) for a trukk.
Mum says no, wait till your birthday.
Timmy says can I have 2 bucks so I can play at the store!
some weeks later he has a new trukk. lol

And his mum dosent know she paid for it

At one of our local gaming stores, they don't charge, but it's not uncommon for a employee to walk up and offer consessions (Soda, pizza, ice cream bars ect) at a price. And now after seeing the Temple of Skulls I did, they want to try to get me to paint more terrain for bonus discounts. I told them after I do my Trygon and Malwoc we'll talk.

It's like anything in life nothing is free or very seldom.

And if a small charge is asked for by your store to facilitate the space for you to use then I don't see the problem.

A good waiter or waitress can sell food and drinks to people in large quantity. I'd figure out what makes a good waiter/waitress and have the store attendants do that as well.

"Could I interest you in a ..."

Take their money, bring their change and the item.

I think you could sell a lot of snack food this way.

It's virtually on my way home from work. I popped by the place last night so I could express an opinion. Unfortunately a) it took me 30 minutes to find a parking space and b) when I eventually got there, there wasn't room for me as the place was filled by the store guy and 3 customers. :(

For those not familiar with the geography of Gateshead:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Gateshead,+Tyne+And+Wear+NE9+6LE,+UK&sll=54.936106,-1.78237&sspn=0.007125,0.020106&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Gateshead,+Tyne+And+Wear+NE9+6LE,+United+Kingdom&ll=54.937177,-1.599187&spn=0.003562,0.010053&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=54.937208,-1.599018&panoid=TAU_yILdB9AjSg6jz6vB6g&cbp=12,153.55,,0,11.04

And here's a pic of the unit, although of course today there's a nice new sign on the front with the name of the store so the Google pic is a little out of date.



He is offering 10% straight discount on everything, which should net him a decent level of interest from the kids and their dads.

Whether he should charge for tables? Depends on size, quality, demand, and the level of customer-input required in terms of running them and providing terrain etc. I'm guessing not. Unless he's really strapped for cash and is prepared to put in the extra effort involved in creating something really worth paying for. Maybe he should have a trip down to Maelstrom's "Eye of the Storm" in Mansfield to see a real high-quality "venue" store in action, to get some ideas.

I think he would better be served by making it free playing space as a decent "venue" as there's nowhere else nearby other than the GW bunker in Newcastle or the horrible GW Metro Centre store for kids to play that haven't got their own space. His 10% discount should pretty much guarantee that anyone buys stuff from him if they need it, provided he keeps in enough stock and is prepared to do rapid orders, rather than getting it from Maelstrom/Wayland where discounts are similar but you have to wait for postage to arrive. There's no point worrying about people using 2nd hand/ultra-cheap stuff as those aren't lost sales.