So Before this turns into a flame thread, I would love to keep an open mind and discussion about this possible new plan, I know for a 20 year hobbiyist Im pretty pissed off about what I heard, but then again, I can see the point.

So last week straight from the horses mouth (So Cal District Manger and Area manger) I have heard that many of the retail stores will have a brand new business model.

Here are a few things they want to change;

No more hobbyist gaming in the store (other than national events etc.)
No pick me up games in the store (I.E. Meetups are allowed but Frown upon)
No more hobbying in the store
Staff should focus more on brand new clients only
Hobbiyist dont spend money, New clients spend the most amount of money on the hobby so lets focus on new clients

All of this seems quite bizzare as the tentative location for the new Glendale store is hidden in a strip mall with zero visibility and traffic.....seems to be a little hypocritical to me (but they havent moved yet so maybe it will be somewhere awesome who knows....)

I am not jumping to conclusions, but I know several hobby managers from around the country and when I asked them what they had heard, they are hearing the same type of pep talks so this seems like a fairly accurate rumor and I am hopeful that it works out for GW.

Lets face the facts this is an extremely niche hobby that does not appeal to everyone, why would GW intentionally alienate its hobbiyists and limit their game expierience in the store? This is kind of the vibe I am getting from this plan, and although it may work to get a stream of new hobbiyists in the door, will it be enough to keep them past their initial purchase without a large web of hobbiyists that meet up and play at the stores?

I for one never was a basement / home hobbyist and have always played strictly at stores, I also spend absurd amounts of money at GW (according to my taxes almost $4000 in 2009), I am quite upset that it could be harder to play at the stores.

It seems their investors want to see GW make more money, myself having years of retail and manafacturing expierience have one word for them....China.

I am curious to here your what you think of this rumor, so please no one stupid answers of "That Sucks, Boo all NoObs...." I would like to hear well educated opinions.

On a side note anyone notice the LA Bunker stopped stocking forgeworld? There goes my only reason for making the drive down to westminster....

On one hand I don't like hearing this if it's true.
As someone with a significant amount of time and money invested in this hobby it angers me to think that we (the dedicated gamers) are getting pushed aside for the kids and people that accidentally walk into a GW thinking it sells video games.

But on the other hand if GW as a company seems to think this is the best move for them to continue making and selling they're products then I have no choice but to accept it. Will it make me upset? Yes. If there was another gaming company with the same market saturation that GW has would i switch to them? Yes.
But until that happens I'll still enjoy my hobby no matter what GW does.

]sworth9411 wrote:No pick me up games in the store (I.E. Meetups are allowed but Frown upon)

I can't see this. In the GW stores I've been too (admittedly not as many in the US as the UK) store demo games got people interested in buying the core box set to play, but pick up games got new players in picking up fully fleshed out ARMIES (more $$$!) to play the game with. It seems a backwards looking decision if there's any truth to it.

I'm kinda ok with this as long as they keep increasing company product support for independent retailers.
Though keep in mind I don't and never have played at a GW store.

From what I've heard from other people I have spoken to, the GW stores tend to be woeful places to get games going compare to IRs.

Also, GW has used this business model since the mid-90s (since 2nd ed Wh40k), and they caught a lot of flak from people back then.
They treated the independent retailers very poorly at that point, their support is better now. (but no-where near what it was in the late 80s / early 90s)

I figure if done properly this sort of model could benefit IRs in that experienced players will leave the customer base of the GW specific stores and 'move into' the IRs customer base.

mark my words....It's going to turn into a flame thread.

Staff should focus more on brand new clients only

This one leapt up at me as being totally senseless (yeah, I know,GW,but bear with me) i wonder if this was said and how it was said. Once they have brought they are, by definition, no longer new business/new clients.

No more hobbying in the store
clarify please ?

Haven't heard anything about this from friends that work at GW stores. Might be something new, or might be some stuff getting passed down the lane and garbled.

For a long time they've had some pretty agressive programming and events scheduled for each store. All the stores run the same events, managers don't schedule a lot of their own. Some of those items might come from this, although its old. Theres also the general move to smaller shops with one person on staff most of the time, which would cut out a few things.

But gaming in the stores, painting, and hobbying are pretty essential to the hobby. So I don't see those going away.

And we have a new head guy in the US as of this weekend, so we'll be seeing what he throws on the table soon.

All the bunkers have quit stocking Forgeword, happend a while ago.

No more hobbyist gaming in the store (other than national events etc.)

Why not? GW already alienates us veterans anyway. 14 year olds have more money for space marines amirite?

No pick me up games in the store (I.E. Meetups are allowed but Frown upon)

I'm assuming you mean pick up games, meaning random people who happen to be there decide to play. How often does this happen anyway?

No more hobbying in the store

I couldn't stand to lug around my paint and supplies to end up trying to paint while some mouth breathing 14 year old looks over my shoulder and asks to touch my toys.

Staff should focus more on brand new clients only

This I would see as a plus, as once they learned I've been doing this for 10 years they would leave me the feth alone. NO YOU CANNOT HELP ME FIND ANYTHING!!!

Hobbiyist dont spend money, New clients spend the most amount of money on the hobby so lets focus on new clients

I don't spend money? I've spent in excess of $5000 over 10 years on this hobby. That amounts to $500 a year which is about the same as that "new" client in his first year. Newbies aren't going out and buying multiple armies all at once. Meanwhile I'm busy collecting 3 armies currently, 2 for myself and 1 for my wife.


GW is the devil.

Staff should focus more on brand new clients only

I have never seen a GW with enough customers in it at one time that determining who the employees should market their product to requires any sort of guidance.

They'll focus on every client who comes in. This is silly.

aerethan wrote:[...] while some mouth breathing 14 year old looks over my shoulder and asks to touch my toys.

Damn those 14-year-olds, how dare they breath through their mouths?!

I find this strange; there must be a financial motivator behind the change? Are GW store managers complaining that there is not enough display space for the quantity of product? Are they seeing significant theft of product, so much so that they feel the staff cannot properly watch its customers with a game in progress? I just don’t see the logic....

Having said that I have never played any games in a store location, so this is no loss to me.

Actually this is similar to things I heard about 2 years ago so I am not sure how much of this is actually going to become fact. I do know that they are trying to move more towards the English buisness model (which will doubtfully work here since we dont walk everywhere and we are not contained communities). Personally I stopped playing at GW stores long ago but to have experienced players in the store is critical to get new people into the store.

Fishboy wrote: to have experienced players in the store is critical to get new people into the store.

But aren't all red shirts experienced players?!

That can not be accurate, as Jammesonian said any retail store that ignores clients that walk into in the door are committing suicide.

I used to game at the LA Battle Bunker all the time and it was a fantastic place to game and it was also one of the most successful GW retail stores in the nation. It was that way because the manager put his heart and soul into creating a thriving community of gamers.

This is bogus, or someone has spun it to the point that it doesn't reflect the facts. Perhaps the head honchos have said focus on brining more new gamers into the fold, but I highly doubt they will actively ignore any potential customers or stop allowing people to game in store, as that would be utterly foolish.

I have noticed some of these things as well, and being in so-cal as well, i do know what you are talking about. I have also once worn the 'red shirt' so i know how GW works behind doors a bit so ill toss my 2 cents on each point

No more hobbyist gaming in the store (other than national events etc.)
No pick me up games in the store (I.E. Meetups are allowed but Frown upon):
these two fall under the same thing. GW is going to start pushing for sign ups and to call ahead and reserve tables ( even more so in stores with 2-3 tables, which is most of the so-cal stores). Pick up games are still doable if the store is slow.

No more hobbying in the store:
This one i dont see being true. What are they gonna do with those painting tables then? The only thing from this is if the academy is going on, they get priority


Staff should focus more on brand new clients only
Hobbiyist dont spend money, New clients spend the most amount of money on the hobby so lets focus on new clients
these two once again fall in the same thinking. GW has for some time thought this way, and it is mostly true. New customers tend to spend around $500.00+ in the first few months, the average hobbyist does not, they maybe spend $100.00.

None of this news is really new, its the same stuff they have been saying for years just slightly different, including "glendale is moving". I think ive heard glendale is closing 5 times, granted i will say this year it looks like it just might actually happen. As for hearing this from the "horse", that position has changed a few times in the last few years, so i dont think even GW knows whats really going on.

sworth9411 wrote:Here are a few things they want to change;

No more hobbyist gaming in the store (other than national events etc.)
No pick me up games in the store (I.E. Meetups are allowed but Frown upon)
No more hobbying in the store
Staff should focus more on brand new clients only
Hobbiyist dont spend money, New clients spend the most amount of money on the hobby so lets focus on new clients

Without commenting on the validity of this rumor in the sense of whether your source was honest or not, I can't really see them going for this. What's suggested here means no more gaming tables other than for demos, no more painting tables other than for intros, heck, you could probably let one in every three Redshirts go as well since they're only there to sell stuff now. Staff focusing on a specific demographic makes little sense, jamsessionein is right, there's never enough people at the store for there to be any need to be picky.

Also, if they want to stop people from playing at games nights, that'll ultimately mean some people will be bereft of the opportunity to play at all, as well as the opportunity to meet, network and socialize with other gamers.

I have no info on this but if GW did their research and they think this will work then their research would be entirely bass ackwards to every other company I have experience with.

Every other business, that isn't a 100% retail mall or trend store, gets its main profit from the pre-existing customer (installed base or invested base). Now GW is becoming more retail but still after the initial sale to any noobie the hobby is built on community. All you have to do is be in a GW store on a quiet day when a kid comes in and the sales guy goes through the black reach demo in an empty store to get a feel for what this business model will lead to.

When a noob comes in and sees two or three tables going and a few hobbyists at the paint table the message is so much stronger. First, they are not alone – here are other people who do this. Second, the other games have more figs than the black reach demo – a huge part of this hobby is the delusion that someday you are going to have vast armies of figures. Third, If I can do my hobbying/building/painting at GW I don't have to wait for my dad to clear space in the garage or some other person to find time to help me.

Now in my area there is a Mall GW and this policy would make sense there. There really isn't room, one game table other than the demo table and a four chair kid-sized paint desk. So when this store has veteran players gaming it is actually a bit too cramped and I don't even like to drop in to buy paint on the weekend when there are 4 to 6 kids playing on that one table while mommie shops. They already encourage their regulars to visit the other GWs in the area for the hobby and game aspect. They know, if it is convenient to where you live, that you will still drop in and buy product but otherwise it is really geared to introductory gamers that wander in as mall foot traffic.

And the pre-existing customer costs nothing to market to. So zero out-reach marketing and zero-effort in making sales for the staff (and most of us would prefer the staff not try and SELL us anything). The pre-existing customer is more likely to buy products that have a higher mark-up or return on investment – raise your hand if you have a BRB and four or more codex. The pre-existing customer is the one buying the older models that have already paid for their initial costs – you have to play a bit before you realize that those ugly, expensive chaos obliterators have game value. The noobies buy almost exclusively the newer kits – and it isn't like pre-existing customer do not buy any of those.

So, unless your connection was talking about the "retail" GW mall outlets I don't see this being a realistic.

aerethan wrote: 14 year olds have more money for space marines amirite?



I couldn't stand to lug around my paint and supplies to end up trying to paint while some mouth breathing 14 year old looks over my shoulder and asks to touch my toys.

14 year olds dont neccessarily have more money to spend in the hobby.

OH PLEASEEE LET ME SEE YOUR AWESOME SPACE DUDEEEESSSS! PLEASEEEE!, nope i dont act like that not many 14 year old in the uk do, so unless they're really different then i suggest you dont bash us, i'm quite experienced and was mistaken for someone old and wise enough to go to veterans night (in the uk on thursdays you can go down 6-10 (i think) and play with anyone that 16+ years old.

I was going to say you're nuts, but after seeing that you spend $4000 a year on GW stuff, it'd be redundant.

I don't mind the 14 year old players. They generally don't interrupt games to ask slowed questions.

It's the 14 year old's that GW wants to play, who don't understand personal space and gaming etiquette.

There are a scant few well behaved 14 years in game stores, at least where I'm at.

John wrote:I was going to say you're nuts, but after seeing that you spend $4000 a year on GW stuff, it'd be redundant.

I don't spend $4k a year. Good Lord no. It's usually a healthy $500, which isn't too bad for an annual investment into a hobby.

Pika_power wrote:

aerethan wrote:[...] while some mouth breathing 14 year old looks over my shoulder and asks to touch my toys.

Damn those 14-year-olds, how dare they breath through their mouths?!

ok that is sigged my friend.

Looks like GW is moving towards a smaller-footprint store model with a focus on actual store retailing, rather than being a hobby hangout.

Good thing I don't game at the mall...

sworth9411 wrote:
No pick me up games in the store (I.E. Meetups are allowed but Frown upon)

As someone who's only LGS is owned and operated by a complete and total d-bag, I pray to God this isn't true.

With only the information that you have here?


I don't see this store lasting very long, or making enough money to keep the lights on.

As a matter of fact, this is a recipe for disaster. Who did they get this type of buisness model from, Mr. Magoo?

With the way things are going in the economy, this is not the way to even get someone in the door.


The biggest issue on deck is that GW products are nich to begin with, and to self alienate themselves from the customer, someone should really tell them to stop before they start down this road to ruin. SO... Let me see how this works.

1. I concentrate on getting people INTO the hobby, but... don't do anything to keep them?

2. With the way that people act in these stores already when you see thier faces when little johnny tells mommy dearest that this Battalion costs 89 bucks, and you see the color drain from someones face as they take it out of johnnys mitts and put it back with a "Thats nice, dear... Lets go get you some shoes..."
This will last about five minutes.

3. SO I don't have anything to get people into the store, anything to get someone to come back, and on top of all of that, I do not gather a solid following to generate intetest and bring in new people?

GW can bite it.

Go to your Local Gaming stores and run the GW shops out of town on a rail. Give someone who actually cares about your local community then some douche who just rolls in with a fancy specialty store that doesn't give you an incentive to even walk in the door.


Seriously, GW. April is a couple of months off. Its a little early for jokes.

Focus for staff is always on bringing in and retaining new customers. However, having a hobby community with veterans in it has proven a winning strategy for helping novices and getting them to keep coming back for people to game with, help them with the hobby, etc. If they push their own community out the door I foresee disaster for GW and our hobby in the US at least.

I can't see this happening. I can see them focusing on new players instead of veteran players from a sales standpoint (a veteran player will likely already know what they want) but everything else sounds like bull honkey.

Does Hobbyists refer to a certain type of player, as in, someone over the age of 20, something like that? If so, they could be trying to keep a particular type of person out, to try and draw in newer players of a different sort. For instance, if you were a 30 year old man, and you walked into a GW where there were a bunch of 8 - 12 year olds playing, you'd probably be less inclined to want to hang out there, as you would if it was people your age or perhaps slightly younger. Kids on the other hand, might be ok going to a place where older people hang out, but there parents might not want them there. Now of course, if GW stores were full of girls in their early 20s, everyone would want to hang out there. But since GW probably knows that this particular demographic isn't going to easily embrace wargaming, I'm guessing this is just a way of getting the HUGE nerds who hang out at GW stores and prattle on endlessly about rules and models and prices, then go home and buy everythign for 20% off online, out of the stores.

My guess, is they're trying not to scare off one (or multiple) demographics with having big nerds in the store, and trying to make it more accessable to 'normal' (average, easily scared by change,boring, don't want to eat pizza for more that one meal a day) customers. And, I think that's fine, for those little GW stores that exist in malls, and don't really have much space for doing anything in there.

Now, Battlebunkers, and larger stores should be an exception. These should be 'The place' for everything GW, for everyone. Gaming, painting, shooting the breeze, these should be a safe haven for any and all fans of the hobby.

And I concur with you sworth9411, if they don't stock forgeworld at the battle bunker anymore, I really don't see the need to bust my ass and drive an hour down there. Unless they have a mercenaries market again.

Brother SRM wrote:I can't see this happening. I can see them focusing on new players instead of veteran players from a sales standpoint (a veteran player will likely already know what they want) but everything else sounds like bull honkey.

How is that any different from how it is now? For as long as I can remember GW has focused on new players at the expense of the veteran players, it just seems like it has gotten worse over the last couple of years because the GW support for veterans has dried up. They have no interest in working out a business model which involves keeping people in the hobby and providing a steady revenue stream over 10+ years. They just grab the new customer, squeeze them (or at least there parents) dry and then move on to the next one.

I think that someone confused the one man store concept that was discussed in the latest GW´s shareholder report with a blanket policy for all the stores along the way.

If not and this info is true, good luck sustaining you market share GW. One of the benefits of the instore gaming is that the client is constantly exposed to the game. He sees that he is not the only one, meets people that show him new figures, he is egged to paint and buy more for the "perfect" army... if gaming is remuved all this motivators are lost and then GWs risks losing farther sales from the client, after all if you are happy playing the basic AoBR with your buddy at home why buying all those expensive tanks and nobs?

M.

Chiming in. I haven't heard anything like this at all from my friends still working for GW (covering a range of positions, from store staff to execs). I typically hobby in the local Battle Bunker every Monday and unless there are "national events" every day, then there'd be an awful lot of wasted space and therefore wasted rent.

There may be some new stores opened that just don't have the gaming/hobby space. I think there's one already like that in the Schaumburg Mall in Illinois, and I know there are stores like that in Japan.

When I worked in retail stores in GW Australia we never allowed pick-up games, ran specific scenarios on Thursday night Games Nights, and you could only sit at the painting table if you were getting a painting lesson from a staff member. I'm not 100% sure if it's the same now (been away for too long) but I do have to say that GW hobbyists played at home or their friend's place or at their local club (usually held in some sort of community hall) and would come into the GW store to pick up things for their army (new models, paints, etc).
In the store that I managed (Sydney City) we had a great existing community and a lot of folks who hadn't seen toy soldiers that came through the doors every day. We'd talk with everyone, learn what was going on around town, then spread the word. We helped connect new recruits with existing clubs, we help new recruits start new clubs, we talked people through building their own tables.

All without needing to have gaming tables and hobby space available for our customers, no matter what level of the hobby.

Amusingly enough, each week we turned over two, sometimes three times what some of today's US GW stores do in a week, and that was 14 years ago. My store was not the only one achieving those numbers, and I know many of my former customers are still in the hobby, because I see them on forums and visiting GW stores whenever I head back to Sydney.

What's my point?

While I haven't heard anything like what the OP heard, if it much of what he said did come to pass it would not be the end of the hobby.

The world is different from what it was 14 years ago. Times change. Not all change is a bad thing, but sometimes it can take time to see the good, in my opinion.

Cheers
Dave

I think removing the gaming tables would be a disaster. Everyone interested in getting into 40k eventually asks themselves, "will I ever get to play?" When you walk into a GW and see people playing, that question disappears and your like. Sweet. Problem solved. The painting tables aren't as essential. We can paint at home with some newspaper. Most people I see painting in the store are just doing it while talking to others. The loss of the painting table is no major damage, but losing the gaming tables is another story.

I'd be concerned what trends might start in third party gaming clubs if GW removed their tables. There are two Game Palors in the DC metro area. One charges you to play, which is bull and why I never go there. The other doesn't and when wondering why, I realize, because there's a Games Workshop in the mall five minutes down the road with gaming tables. I'd rather take my business to a place that has both tables and retail sales. I'm not going to shop around 50 different locations that all charge me the same amount for the product. I'm gonna find one I like that's well located and go there and stay there. I think a lot of people who buy things think this way. No one is gonna go to five different game stops to buy their games when they all charge the same prices. They're gonna find the closest one or one they like and keep going there.

Now, if GW stops offering pick up games without charge, what will these other places do? I think they'll start charging, especially if one of the reasons they don't charge is because there is a games workshop a mile down the road. Most of these stores already don't do pick up games. They support multiple games and tend to just have a Warhammer night or something. What if I can't go to warhammer night? I might have a job or work etc. And reserving tables? Last I checked a drop in supply most often increases demand. Again, I can see stores charging me money just to play with my expensive $800 army. I'm not paying to play this game after I've already invested in the purchase of the pieces. Then comes the problem when will I ever play? I'd probably stop buying models, and stop playing, and I think many other people would too.

I'm in US GW stores all the time these days, mostly between the US Maryland Battle Bunker and surrounding area stores and none of the staff have said anything like this to me, in fact they're always inviting us back in their usual friendly manner. I've seen no indication of being pushed out of US GW shops, at least not at this point. Certainly nothing like this was mentioned at the Battle Bunker last evening and I heard nothing on the weekend in the other GW store I was in then.

I hobbied at home and played most of my games at home for the first 15 years I was in this hobby and GW survived, but it seems to me that the hobby and GW's business has grown a lot more in the US during the past 5 years since their stores have become more inviting. During that time I've taken to spending a lot of hobby time in the stores myself instead of at home. I could go back to doing the hobby at home myself, but I wonder what would happen to the community and GW business growth in the US if all the people currently hanging out in stores suddenly were pushed out.

Jervis Johnson said to me himself in 2008 that they recognized that what worked well in one country (e.g., the UK) didn't always work well in another (e.g., the US), such as the "only painted models can be used for gaming in the stores" policy years ago. It worked great in the UK as a way to get people to compete for the highly limited gaming tables in UK shops, but the policy stifled hobby business growth in the US and when they realized that the policy was abolished. As D.T. points out above, Australia had its own set of rules and those worked great there.

Again though, the US is different. The density in any given housing area of people who play these types of games is often low here and one hears a lot about people dropping out of the hobby because they have no one close by to play with. The stores currently provide a central place for people to find others also into this hobby, even if they don't know anyone else who plays before walking into the shop. Without that mechanism the US hobby growth could certainly be jeopardized. When gamers can't find opponents for a certain game, then no matter how much they love it they'll often change to another game or hobby for which they can find opponents. Given all the other competing interests in the US, especially for younger customers, it's all too easy for customers to defect to some other pastime if they are having trouble finding fellow Warhammer players. You have to "get 'em while you got 'em" when it comes to customers. In other words, don't do anything that drives your customers to try other things they might get used to or even like better, keep them close to your business while they are already there so they don't go spend their money elsewhere.

What did the manager who said this look like?
Did you happen to catch his name?

You said many stores and not all stores, did you mean many stores or all stores in the region?

I could understand why people would flip out on no gaming in the store . But its the best for the store. Its good that its going to be a full functioning retail store, why?
Because believe it or not when people that come to the malls to hang with their boys or girlfriends and they see a bunch of kids that have no where else to go except stay there and play board games? Believe it or not it does turn people away. As for me I could care less because like, I hope most of people here on this thread do it for a game of thinking and just do while life is full of stress. Now for me there is a libary near where I live at about the distance of the mall. And thats the best place to play a game at a libary and I could explain all the reason why but I beat half of people here could. Manager of the stores should find libarys around them and try and set up a commiuntys so not all IS LOST!!!!! lol you guys

Dunno if I buy this. I'm a hobbyist (I game only very, very rarely) and spend ridiculous amounts on this hobby in their stores.

I think what's being said is misrepresented.

From what I understand, GW wants to "funnel" veterans to the battle bunkers, which are made to handle lots of people and hobbyists.

Also, there is a huge emphasis these days on stores being profitable. That means bringing in new blood. Ironically enough, that's kinda what MOST veterans want. Veterans were always telling me how they hated red shirts trying to get them to buy something. Especially if it was the wrong thing for them.

Ironically, what you said makes sense. GW knows that veterans go online and what not for discounts for their stuff, generally. The staff knows which vets buy from their store and which vets don't. Concentrating on promoting the game to new people seems to make sense. As was said, it's not the only thing done, but it's the major emphasis.

I am a little surprised that so many of the people on this thread don't believe GW is moving to this method of operation. They have actually done this before. I have been playing GW games since 1988 so I have seen just about every move GW has made in the states. Back when the retail stores first started hitting the "Mills" malls, GW was trying to put every FLGS out of the GW business. They made it extremely difficult for independent retailers to carry their product. The GW stores had only a few poorly run gaming events and you could only play in them if your models were purchased from the store and were fully painted (Three Colors). They came right out and said that existing gamers could go themselves. They only wanted new players and wanted everyone to buy from the mall stores or the GW online store.

Seems to me that this is just GW coming full circle.

Thank God for Privateer Press!

Ultimately, the best way for GW to make more profit is to increase sales. This is difficult and involves GW changing the way they approach both their customers and their internal policies but is by no means impossible.

However, GW management being who they are (i.e. unable to find their ar5e with both hands and a map) they will adopt the 'classic' business model and try to cut costs instead while simultaneously raising prices on existing products.

Reducing the size of stores to reduce rent and wage costs is an obvious move as it directly affects the bottom line. Explaining to the shareholders (who as an investment company have no knowledge of or interest in the company they have invested in as long is it makes money) that you need to speculate to accumulate will not wash, particularly in the current risk-averse business climate.

At some point they will (hopefully) realise they are not an insurance call centre, cotton mill, etc (insert your 'sweat-shop of choice' here) and that this model does not work for niche products like theirs in the long term. If they don't then the outlook cannot be good...

Chimera_Calvin wrote:At some point they will (hopefully) realise they are not an insurance call centre, cotton mill, etc (insert your 'sweat-shop of choice' here) and that this model does not work for niche products like theirs in the long term. If they don't then the outlook cannot be good...

That presumes that GW demand really is strongly price-sensitive, as opposed to only marginally price-sensitive.

scuddman wrote:I think what's being said is misrepresented.

From what I understand, GW wants to "funnel" veterans to the battle bunkers, which are made to handle lots of people and hobbyists.

If that's the case, I think we can safely assume fringe markets such as Finland will continue operations as before. GW Helsinki is the size of a small barbershop and the nearest larger GW store to my house is probably in Germany or Moscow.

I'm wondering if this is 'store' direction rather then 'gw' direction? GW have been supporting the hobbiest more in the last few years then ever, but for smaller stores they must maximise space/income, and people walking in and buying generates more then someone sat there all day painting.

I'm spoilt however as I use warhammer world, so I always have sonewhere to sculpt, paint and game when its too cold to use the 19 ft log cabin in the back garden :-)

Sadly it is true.

Over here in Germany we have already experienced it in various shops and more and more GW-shops jandle it that way.

The shop in my town is roughly the size of an average american high school class-room. In the past they expanded their table to 4x12 feet but now they are going to cut it down to 1/2. Besides this they only have the tripartiate introduction table.

Mor important is the fact that Veterans are asked to leave the shop if they show up more than three times without buying anything and are welcome back "if they buy something".

Go figure.


BTW, conditions for LGS have became bad once again over here.

skullking wrote:Does Hobbyists refer to a certain type of player, as in, someone over the age of 20, something like that? If so, they could be trying to keep a particular type of person out, to try and draw in newer players of a different sort. For instance, if you were a 30 year old man, and you walked into a GW where there were a bunch of 8 - 12 year olds playing, you'd probably be less inclined to want to hang out there, as you would if it was people your age or perhaps slightly younger.

This is quite true, I'm 26 and don't often go to the games workshop shop but I was in there recentley when it snowed and I couldn't get to work, three of four groups of kids came in one after the other with parents in tow and besides the mums and the manager (who I'd been having a nice chat with when it was empty previously) I was the only person over fifteen in there.

So yeah, it just started feeling worng for me to be hanging around in there once the manager wasn't free any more so I made my pleasentries, took my grots and left.

About a year ago a independent store over here who is selling GW stuff ( we dont have GW here but some independent stores do have a close relathionship with GW) complained to GW their stuff was not selling... after a visit of a GW rep to the store the conclusion was - " you have to drop the vets playing on the store"... So that was about a year ago and I got this first hand from store owner.

When I walk in a GW store everyones younger than me

But I have my secret weapon.

I take my daughter with me.
There so busy trying to chat her up I could rob the place blind, And they wouldn't notice

This does seem odd if it is as reported.

..that said...

I have heard talk -- and remember this is UK only AFAIK..but Mr. Kirby has just said he's going to be spending more time in the USA now... -- that the "10 Commandments" that the stores have now are to be scrapped and replaced with updated and more "professional" ones suited to "the needs of the market". Related to this I have heard talk about the stores receiving codes of conduct for the patrons they have, I have no idea what these will contain or say but i wonder if this is somehow responsible for the the "no hobbying in stores" part of the OP perhaps.

There's some stuff about more regional sales managers in/for the UK too but to all of that.

IMO hardcore vets do not need GW support.

They have the skillz and knowledge to be able to learn rules, create scenarios, build terrain and so on, without needing help from GW.

The key role for GW in helping vets is simply to provide a well written set of rules and timely FAQ updates.

Kilkrazy wrote:IMO hardcore vets do not need GW support.

They have the skillz and knowledge to be able to learn rules, create scenarios, build terrain and so on, without needing help from GW.

The key role for GW in helping vets is simply to provide a well written set of rules and timely FAQ updates.

All very true, but we are also putting the UK gaming style angle with this comment, it seems clear from reading here that the US gamers are far more likely to use the stores to meet and game far more than the UK 'clubs and houses' style amongst older gamers.

If the US GW style is going to change to no hobby gaming instore, I think they should be affording a great deal of help to establishing clubs in the areas. If so, this is an excellent idea since it actually frees the gamers from the oblige to use only GW minis or only play GW games.

"If you love them, let them go"...

davetaylor wrote:Chiming in. I haven't heard anything like this at all from my friends still working for GW (covering a range of positions, from store staff to execs). I typically hobby in the local Battle Bunker every Monday and unless there are "national events" every day, then there'd be an awful lot of wasted space and therefore wasted rent.

There may be some new stores opened that just don't have the gaming/hobby space. I think there's one already like that in the Schaumburg Mall in Illinois, and I know there are stores like that in Japan.

When I worked in retail stores in GW Australia we never allowed pick-up games, ran specific scenarios on Thursday night Games Nights, and you could only sit at the painting table if you were getting a painting lesson from a staff member. I'm not 100% sure if it's the same now (been away for too long) but I do have to say that GW hobbyists played at home or their friend's place or at their local club (usually held in some sort of community hall) and would come into the GW store to pick up things for their army (new models, paints, etc).
In the store that I managed (Sydney City) we had a great existing community and a lot of folks who hadn't seen toy soldiers that came through the doors every day. We'd talk with everyone, learn what was going on around town, then spread the word. We helped connect new recruits with existing clubs, we help new recruits start new clubs, we talked people through building their own tables.

All without needing to have gaming tables and hobby space available for our customers, no matter what level of the hobby.

Amusingly enough, each week we turned over two, sometimes three times what some of today's US GW stores do in a week, and that was 14 years ago. My store was not the only one achieving those numbers, and I know many of my former customers are still in the hobby, because I see them on forums and visiting GW stores whenever I head back to Sydney.

What's my point?

While I haven't heard anything like what the OP heard, if it much of what he said did come to pass it would not be the end of the hobby.

The world is different from what it was 14 years ago. Times change. Not all change is a bad thing, but sometimes it can take time to see the good, in my opinion.

Cheers
Dave

While I don't disagree with your summation Dave, for me, if my local GW goes to that model, I'm out of the hobby. Yeah, there's a local club that I could get in. But they're a tournament focused group that doesn't suit my playstyle and I'm in this primarily to paint which I do at my local GW.

Why? because if I stay home, I'm just going to log in to WoW.

Now granted, there's quite a few people around -here- that would love to see me gone.

I'm supposed to go out to my local shop today for our escalation league, I'm gonna print this up and interrogate our manager.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:IMO hardcore vets do not need GW support.

They have the skillz and knowledge to be able to learn rules, create scenarios, build terrain and so on, without needing help from GW.

The key role for GW in helping vets is simply to provide a well written set of rules and timely FAQ updates.

All very true, but we are also putting the UK gaming style angle with this comment, it seems clear from reading here that the US gamers are far more likely to use the stores to meet and game far more than the UK 'clubs and houses' style amongst older gamers.

If the US GW style is going to change to no hobby gaming instore, I think they should be affording a great deal of help to establishing clubs in the areas. If so, this is an excellent idea since it actually frees the gamers from the oblige to use only GW minis or only play GW games.

"If you love them, let them go"...

except for those of us who only play on a schedule something again to "the day before never."

Playing doesn't do for me. I'm in the hobby to paint. Which I do at my local shop as a reason to get out of the house and away from WoW for a few hours. If not, I'm mean, it's no huge deal. WoW is a lot cheaper than Warhammer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Duncan_Idaho wrote:

Mor important is the fact that Veterans are asked to leave the shop if they show up more than three times without buying anything and are welcome back "if they buy something".
.

I generally buy a paint or something small about every other time I'm at my local store, so that shouldn't be an issue.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:IMO hardcore vets do not need GW support.

They have the skillz and knowledge to be able to learn rules, create scenarios, build terrain and so on, without needing help from GW.

The key role for GW in helping vets is simply to provide a well written set of rules and timely FAQ updates.

All very true, but we are also putting the UK gaming style angle with this comment, it seems clear from reading here that the US gamers are far more likely to use the stores to meet and game far more than the UK 'clubs and houses' style amongst older gamers.

If the US GW style is going to change to no hobby gaming instore, I think they should be affording a great deal of help to establishing clubs in the areas. If so, this is an excellent idea since it actually frees the gamers from the oblige to use only GW minis or only play GW games.

"If you love them, let them go"...

Exactly. Most players use stores as an anchor point for actual gaming. We should remember, when I play comrades, our total distance driven may be on the order of 100 miles or more. If there are no players then there are no sales. I have many many other uses for my money.

Beastajg wrote:I could understand why people would flip out on no gaming in the store . But its the best for the store. Its good that its going to be a full functioning retail store, why?
Because believe it or not when people that come to the malls to hang with their boys or girlfriends and they see a bunch of kids that have no where else to go except stay there and play board games? Believe it or not it does turn people away. As for me I could care less because like, I hope most of people here on this thread do it for a game of thinking and just do while life is full of stress. Now for me there is a libary near where I live at about the distance of the mall. And thats the best place to play a game at a libary and I could explain all the reason why but I beat half of people here could. Majors of the store should find libarys around them and try and set up a commiunty so not all IS LOST!!!!! lol you guys

terrible troll is terrible.

quit being bad.

Thats not trolling, thats expressing a differing opinion.

However, when I played at GW near a mall many moons ago, occasionally the boyfriend/girlfriend criowd would come in. Now at this period of play it was us old farts (well dressed business types). They'd look at the minis, laugh and move on. If GW thinks an empty store with a stressed out redshirt is going to do it then they will have an interesting reality check.

I didn't say it was trolling. I said it was -terrible- trolling. You of all people should know the difference.

But yes, this "business model" (term used very loosely) doesn't make a lot of sense. Especially when it's already known by the DM that my local stores business is driven much more by the veterans than the new kids, most of whom come in once, their mom sees a few price tags, the staff gets the "I'll think about it and come back tomorrow/Saturday" and is never seen again*.

* Because "tomorrow/Saturday" means "the day after never" to the local parents.

You did actually say it was trolling.

terrible troll is terrible.

Quit riding the siderails of flaming.
If you wish to discuss it further, we can take it private to avoid derailing the thread.

It makes sense from a money flow perspective.

You can have more customers if you make more customers.

If your only customers are the ones inside your shop, you're in trouble.

sworth9411 wrote:Here are a few things they want to change;

No more hobbyist gaming in the store (other than national events etc.)
No pick me up games in the store (I.E. Meetups are allowed but Frown upon)
No more hobbying in the store
Staff should focus more on brand new clients only
Hobbiyist dont spend money, New clients spend the most amount of money on the hobby so lets focus on new clients

Excellent! This means more people will flock to independant stores instead of wasting ther time at GW stores.

I am glad GW finally came to the realization that the best sevice they can offer is their products. Becuase lets be honest here, if GW do plan on implementing this brand new (one man to a store) sales routine, then it wont be possible to do the above and still be able to run a cash register.

I am being somewhat sarcastic in my post, but I am very genuine when I say I am glad that they are doing this and forcing more customers to seek independent shops. The saying goes "Pay where you play", not "Pay and then get the hell out, thanks for the money suckers".

twistinthunder wrote:

aerethan wrote: 14 year olds have more money for space marines amirite?



I couldn't stand to lug around my paint and supplies to end up trying to paint while some mouth breathing 14 year old looks over my shoulder and asks to touch my toys.

14 year olds dont neccessarily have more money to spend in the hobby.

It was obviously sarcasm. Well played aerethan.
Plus it's a stereotype of 14 year olds, don't let it get you down too much. I've seen it happen way too much
What's worse is the one's with ice cream, you know by the end of the game those Space Marines are going to be covered in it.

malfred wrote:It makes sense from a money flow perspective.

You can have more customers if you make more customers.

If your only customers are the ones inside your shop, you're in trouble.

True, but there's just one thing to remember. If one customer has a good experience with a company, then that's one customer added. However, if one customer has a bad experience then you could possibly lose ten. There's actually no need for them to throw away the older customers, in fact they should try supporting them more and keep the current support for the new customers at the same level. That would be the smart profit increasing way though...



Because that is how economics works, by making new customers but keeping the old one's you're adding to the demand for the product that you're supplying. At the moment GW's products are trying to ignore this basic fact of economics and simply pushing the price up, lowering the demand and increasing their supply; which leads to it devaluing as well. So they can't really afford to brush off the older players and hope everything will work out. Prices will start falling and, perhaps after some more artificial price increases no doubt caused by ignoring this, the stream of new players might dry up. If anything their profits will fall, lowering the prices as they hope to try to sell off more of them; as the demand will increase if that does happen, as it will be closer to the equilibrium.


They're probably looking at this one and interperating it wrong. While it is true that you can increase the price by increasing the demand significantly, you have to actually do it right. Having low advertising and actually relying on veteran players to kind of spread the hobby for free is a terrible terrible marketing strategy that will set itself on fire and jump off the roof of their headquarters. And that's where I began to lose interest in Economics, stuck in the class for another two years I resorted to playing Pok'emon and half listening to what they were talking about. But, I still passed the course with a 70%

I love how your mini-lesson in economics devolved into Pokemon.

All great classes end that way.

Oh, look, from my December 18 lecture, "Read a Book, You Lazy Kids."

malfred wrote:I love how your mini-lesson in economics devolved into Pokemon.

All great classes end that way.

Oh, look, from my December 18 lecture, "Read a Book, You Lazy Kids."

Doesn't it always. If you look at the syllabus for the discussion of War and Peace, you'll see the last line.
Dostoyevsky and Pikachu, Conflicts and similarities in the Modern Age.

n0t_u

saying what I said, but with graphs!!

If I could ask GW senior management one question, it would be 'Why do you think fewer customers are a good thing?'

P.S. If the rationale for this is so that parents won't be put off buying stuff for little Johnny by having geeky looking kids in store, then someone needs to batter the side of GW execs head with a large soggy pike (the fish or the weapon, makes no difference ) while explaining that toy soldiers will never be cool, so there's no need to try!!

So the basic thing is you're arguing this will results in one time sales and not regular customers?

Yeah, how do regular customers dare to build a coherent army list and then only add a few miniatures. They should buy boxes at random and then collect them all!.

New idea for GW, how about selling boxes with random miniatures inside

M.

Exactly, mal.

GW has never fully understood (at least not for a long time) that it doesn't market its own product.

Wargames in general have always relied on existing players to interest new players. The fact is that this is a niche hobby (and to be fair not a very glamorous one).

In order for a company to interest people in their product they either need to be selling something that people know they need/want (such as food, housing and other essentials or common luxuries such as cars, TV's etc). If they go down this route their marketing strategy will always be 'our product is the best because its cheaper/better/lasts longer'.

For less obvious purchases (i.e. niche hobbies) people need to find out that the product exists in the first place. Look at how often people assume that GW sells computer games. When I worked for GW I lost track of the number of people who insisted that we had Wii's in stock!! It would never occur to most people that wargames even exist.

GW's high street presence has mitigated that somewhat but is just dismissed by most as 'where those nerdy kids go'.

It therefore relies on its existing customer base to spread the word. The vast majority of gamers get into the hobby because they know of someone who also plays (Billy sees Johnny's cool toy soldiers and says 'what are they?').

Hence makes commercial sense for GW to try and retain as many customers as possible. Each customer will spend money in varying amounts past their initial outlay, but their true value lies in the number of new gamers they introduce. By working to retain customers, you not only retain those you have now, but also the people that they have introduced and so on.

The net result is a general increase in turnover. Why GW seem determined to derail this is frankly baffling - but there's nothing new there...

New idea for GW, how about selling boxes with random miniatures inside

They actually do this in a strange kind of way. If a shop orders blisters that are out of stock they only can order the general kind of blister. If a customer needs a certain blister (e.g. Tau Heavenly One with staff ) he needs to order from Mail Order since the store can't order a specific miniature.

Miguelsan wrote:Yeah, how do regular customers dare to build a coherent army list and then only add a few miniatures. They should buy boxes at random and then collect them all!.

New idea for GW, how about selling boxes with random miniatures inside

M.

They did, they were called grab bags and very cool they were too if you were into converting or just wanted something new to paint.

My, my it was a tongue in cheek suggestion saying, imagine if entering a GW shop all you could buy is a CCG style box with a space marine outside but you don´t if you are getting a tac squad or a gaunt brood... hilarity would wide spread the night before a GT.

But even the GWs marketing bosses wouldn´t be so stupid... I think

M.

Not sure but wouldn't this result in an empty store? If the store is empty how the kids going to get this as a game? It will just look like any other dead store with desperate salepeople. Am I missing something?

Perhaps this is the death knell people have been predicting? I mean if GW are going to stop painting & gaming, and just sell product then they are going to be no better than your local FLG. GW always harped on about how their stores encompassed the whole hobby, will be interesting if this is the case.

As to the whole "not heard anything" statements, is that really proof they aren't going to follow this path? We all know how sneaky beaky GW can be.

Wolfstan wrote:I mean if GW are going to stop painting & gaming, and just sell product then they are going to be no better than your local FLG.

It sounds like "less playground and sandbox" and more "guided workshops and scenarios." I
don't see it as stopping painting and gaming.

Wolfstan wrote:Perhaps this is the death knell people have been predicting? I mean if GW are going to stop painting & gaming, and just sell product then they are going to be no better than your local FLG. GW always harped on about how their stores encompassed the whole hobby, will be interesting if this is the case.

As to the whole "not heard anything" statements, is that really proof they aren't going to follow this path? We all know how sneaky beaky GW can be.

Actually they would be substantially worse than the local FLGS. The local FLGS actually lets me game at the place I buy product. Not to mention that whole "not bound to GW only games and ridiculously ramped ancillary prices" thing.

I honestly don't know what they are expecting from "walk in sales"/"first timers", as has been said: hefty price tags encourage new people to "buy shoes". I mean, I have a good amount of friends who would love 40K. But if I don't explain the game and show them examples they would never just walk in and pick up a battle force. So if I can get one person to at least get AoBR, that's a slight victory for the hobby in general. But if someone walks into an empty store with zero knowledge of the product, hoping to find video games and has no example of said product... well... you know. At least people playing and painting gets it out there for all to see.

But I can also see the other side of the argument. A more "traditional" retail store may appeal to some people. I'm going to be honest and admit I've only been to a GW store once. I buy all my stuff from the store one block from my house which I get a 10% discount at BUT that's beside the point... I remember going into that GW store and feeling totally alienated, yes a redshirt described 40k (simply) to my friend and I, but it seemed to us like the hardcore vets were just that, way too hardcore. To be honest it kind of intimidated us. Also when the general attitude of watching a game gets you the evil eye from some people it makes for a... well I almost want to say hostile environment to new players. Like I said, I've only been once but first impressions are pretty important.

All in all I am curious to see what they do... but I will still game, buy, paint, etc. at my local store...

This could be what the independant stores have been waiting for. GW to screw up big style

I haven't seen any evidence of this stuff, at least so far....

Our local GW store is the main place to play, because our local FLGS has god-awful tables and the GW store has amazing, painted, scenery-filled ones. That being the case, there are about 10-12 of us that are in there ALL the time, like 3-4 times a week at least. But its always just the same people. I mean, new people come in, etc, but the core group of players is the same, and we're all friendly with the staff and they know us and hang out with us after work, etc. But it IS an official GW store. It seems like if they said 'no more gaming in store!' they'd lose the only customers they really have, or at least like 60-70% of them, which is us main guys who are always there (and often buying stuff, even if its just a few paints or whatever).

Plus they're still pretty aggressive with setting up campaigns.. right now at the store there's a Fantasy and 40K campaign both going with plans for several more starting up in the first quarter of the year. So if these rumors about no more gaming in the store are true, they certainly arent planning on implementing them any time soon.

The thing about focusing on getting new players into the game is definitely something I could see though, the manager there does always break off whatever hes doing to go talk to new customers if they wander in (as he should, no problems with that on my end)

Exaar wrote:I haven't seen any evidence of this stuff, at least so far....

Our local GW store is the main place to play, because our local FLGS has god-awful tables and the GW store has amazing, painted, scenery-filled ones. That being the case, there are about 10-12 of us that are in there ALL the time, like 3-4 times a week at least. But its always just the same people. I mean, new people come in, etc, but the core group of players is the same, and we're all friendly with the staff and they know us and hang out with us after work, etc. But it IS an official GW store. It seems like if they said 'no more gaming in store!' they'd lose the only customers they really have, or at least like 60-70% of them, which is us main guys who are always there (and often buying stuff, even if its just a few paints or whatever).

Plus they're still pretty aggressive with setting up campaigns.. right now at the store there's a Fantasy and 40K campaign both going with plans for several more starting up in the first quarter of the year. So if these rumors about no more gaming in the store are true, they certainly arent planning on implementing them any time soon.

The thing about focusing on getting new players into the game is definitely something I could see though, the manager there does always break off whatever hes doing to go talk to new customers if they wander in (as he should, no problems with that on my end)

Yes but how much are you spending?

Probably about 100-200 dollars a month, give or take.

But the point of my post wasn't that they would or wouldn't make more money, its just that as someone who spends a LOT of time in a GW store I havent heard anything/seen any evidence of these new policies.

So 25 to 50 dollars a week.
About as much as someone new to the hobby.
If these new ideas are in effect, you'd most likely not be affected.
You would be there prefered type of customer

taebeck wrote:I am a little surprised that so many of the people on this thread don't believe GW is moving to this method of operation. They have actually done this before. I have been playing GW games since 1988 so I have seen just about every move GW has made in the states. Back when the retail stores first started hitting the "Mills" malls, GW was trying to put every FLGS out of the GW business. They made it extremely difficult for independent retailers to carry their product. The GW stores had only a few poorly run gaming events and you could only play in them if your models were purchased from the store and were fully painted (Three Colors). They came right out and said that existing gamers could go themselves. They only wanted new players and wanted everyone to buy from the mall stores or the GW online store.

!

I must have been on a different planet during those years. I started selling GW in 1988. Can you explain how you saw everything that GW was doing, as a player, that someone dealing with them directly as a store might somehow miss? I've got a GW store in a Mills mall very near to me. Strangely, rather than try to put me out of the GW business as you say they were trying, they worked quite hard to support my shops. And in fact, they made it easier over the years to carry their products. When they went direct to stores in the 90's my sales on their product doubled.

So forgive me if I continue to call BS on the broad sweeping statements people make about "GW trying to put independents out of business".

I average probably $25 a week on stuff. However, if I had no game store to play in, it's probably instantly drop to $0.

GW policies can and will vary depending from country to country. They had no problem steamrollering nearly all LGS in Australia while at the same time being quite supportive towards US-stores.

mikhaila wrote:

taebeck wrote:I am a little surprised that so many of the people on this thread don't believe GW is moving to this method of operation. They have actually done this before. I have been playing GW games since 1988 so I have seen just about every move GW has made in the states. Back when the retail stores first started hitting the "Mills" malls, GW was trying to put every FLGS out of the GW business. They made it extremely difficult for independent retailers to carry their product. The GW stores had only a few poorly run gaming events and you could only play in them if your models were purchased from the store and were fully painted (Three Colors). They came right out and said that existing gamers could go themselves. They only wanted new players and wanted everyone to buy from the mall stores or the GW online store.

!

I must have been on a different planet during those years. I started selling GW in 1988. Can you explain how you saw everything that GW was doing, as a player, that someone dealing with them directly as a store might somehow miss? I've got a GW store in a Mills mall very near to me. Strangely, rather than try to put me out of the GW business as you say they were trying, they worked quite hard to support my shops. And in fact, they made it easier over the years to carry their products. When they went direct to stores in the 90's my sales on their product doubled.

So forgive me if I continue to call BS on the broad sweeping statements people make about "GW trying to put independents out of business".

You can call BS all you want. If your particular rep loved to snoodle with you ... hey great.

The simple fact is that they were requiring a huge layout in cash and a significant amount of dedicated square footage just to carry their crap. They didn't support the LGS whenever there was an issue with orders or product. The reps would tell LGS that they didn't have enough product to fill an order on a hot item or that it was back ordered, but there would be plenty of stock at the GW store. The GW reps would find any reason they could to cut the Independent retailers discount. GW wanted to be the only game in town selling GW. Any FLGS that sold GW in Texas during the period in question can confirm this.

Next time try reading comprehension. I said GW wanted to put independents out of the GW business.

PS: Just because I didn't specifically say that I have worked with GW in a professional capacity, you really shouldn't assume that I haven't.

My local manager pretty much pooh pooh'd this idea as being so far out of bounds that it would be suicide for GW US.

sworth9411 wrote:So Before this turns into a flame thread, I would love to keep an open mind and discussion about this possible new plan, I know for a 20 year hobbiyist Im pretty pissed off about what I heard, but then again, I can see the point.

No more hobbyist gaming in the store (other than national events etc.)
No pick me up games in the store (I.E. Meetups are allowed but Frown upon)
No more hobbying in the store
Staff should focus more on brand new clients only
Hobbiyist dont spend money, New clients spend the most amount of money on the hobby so lets focus on new clients

All I can say is this has absolutely no impact for me. I'm quite happy to be left the hell alone when I come into a GW store. I don't like playing games or painting ect. in the GW store. Most times I go to the IR anyway. The main stores are more for newbies to get aquainted. I do beleive the "Hobbyists don't spend money" line is a farce. With the way and speed at which they change rules(IE making units that were uber last edition into complete trash ect) even veteran hobbyists are buying just as much as newbs to stay competitive. Not to mention all the new units that every single army seems to be getting that are just too good not to have. That's their problem however as I will be spending my money at the IRs anyway, sure it goes to GW but if they think they can make more money from newbs in the main store this should have no impact for them.

I will mention though that once a gamer is indoctrinated fully and understands the ins and outs, it's much more difficult(if not impossible) to up-sale them, since they know a line of BS(and no that does not mean ballistics skill) when they see it.

taebeck wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

taebeck wrote:I am a little surprised that so many of the people on this thread don't believe GW is moving to this method of operation. They have actually done this before. I have been playing GW games since 1988 so I have seen just about every move GW has made in the states. Back when the retail stores first started hitting the "Mills" malls, GW was trying to put every FLGS out of the GW business. They made it extremely difficult for independent retailers to carry their product. The GW stores had only a few poorly run gaming events and you could only play in them if your models were purchased from the store and were fully painted (Three Colors). They came right out and said that existing gamers could go themselves. They only wanted new players and wanted everyone to buy from the mall stores or the GW online store.

!

I must have been on a different planet during those years. I started selling GW in 1988. Can you explain how you saw everything that GW was doing, as a player, that someone dealing with them directly as a store might somehow miss? I've got a GW store in a Mills mall very near to me. Strangely, rather than try to put me out of the GW business as you say they were trying, they worked quite hard to support my shops. And in fact, they made it easier over the years to carry their products. When they went direct to stores in the 90's my sales on their product doubled.

So forgive me if I continue to call BS on the broad sweeping statements people make about "GW trying to put independents out of business".

You can call BS all you want. If your particular rep loved to snoodle with you ... hey great.

The simple fact is that they were requiring a huge layout in cash and a significant amount of dedicated square footage just to carry their crap. They didn't support the LGS whenever there was an issue with orders or product. The reps would tell LGS that they didn't have enough product to fill an order on a hot item or that it was back ordered, but there would be plenty of stock at the GW store. The GW reps would find any reason they could to cut the Independent retailers discount. GW wanted to be the only game in town selling GW. Any FLGS that sold GW in Texas during the period in question can confirm this.

Next time try reading comprehension. I said GW wanted to put independents out of the GW business.

PS: Just because I didn't specifically say that I have worked with GW in a professional capacity, you really shouldn't assume that I haven't.

I assumed you hadn't worked for them based on your ignorance of how GW worked at the time.

As to your claim to have worked for GW, you obviously didn't pay much attention, or understand how their warehouseing worked. How stock got allocated to the different channels, and that something could easily be on the shelves at a GW store, but not available to order from Trade Sales. They didn't pull stuff from a store to ship to a trade account.

GW reps can't cut discounts, it's the same discount for every store in the US, regardless of how much you order. 15 or so years ago when they first went direct, GW's discount was 50% to all stores, then went to 45% with a 5% 'pay on time' incentive, and then a few years later went to 45% across the board for all accounts. It's always been the same for everyone, (Assuming you payed your bills on time.)

As to the layout in cash, it's called being in business. You can't sell what you don't have in a store. What looks like a large amount of cash and space in the game industry is nothing compared to getting an account with many manufacturers in other parts of the hobby industry, let alone out in the real world.

I always love the stories about "GW reps trying to screw my FLGS so the GW store makes money". Again, if you worked for GW in any capacity beyond redshirt, you'd know that in those years Trade Sales Reps had quotas to fill, usually as a team, but often as individuals. If the local GW store did good it meant nothing to them. Only how much they sold to Trade Accounts, (LGS's) would help them meet their quotas and keep their job. Explain to me how a sales rep benefits in any ways from screwing his accounts, who's orders help him keep his job?

Usually the problems occurred with reps trying to sell too much to a store, not holding back, or refusing to sell them 'hot' product.

It's alway so amusing hearing the still bitter ill remembered and not accurate in the first place grudges from yesteryear.

im wondering? could this lead to less frequancy of model releases of non-spehss mareinzz armys. i mean if your looking for new players whats the point of releasing models so frequant that dont keep hobbyist coming back for more? am i explaining this right?

There may be some smaller mall stores in the US making such changes due to their extreme size limitations like some of the stores in other countries like the UK, Japan or Australia, I don't know, but the premise of this thread is certainly not happening in the bulk of their US stores which are in strip malls. I came right out and asked about this today at my local GW store and the answer was no, there are no plans to suddenly kick out the existing hobby community they've worked so hard to build. Small as the store is, there'd be a terrible lot of wasted space in there if they did that and a lot fewer sales.

Next time try reading comprehension. I said GW wanted to put independents out of the GW business.

PS: Just because I didn't specifically say that I have worked with GW in a professional capacity, you really shouldn't assume that I haven't.

well lets look at the bright side if this does happen. if gw does start prefering new clients maybe thay will bring down the price inorder to not scare the bedwetters away from the "hobby".
did what i just say sound as stupid to you as it did to me?
but then again they could end up scring all the 40k to warmachine. then that could lead to no one there to teach the bed wetters and the thay turn away so then they decide to start catering to there loyalist hobbyists.
that sounded stupid too huh?

taebeck wrote:
As to your comment regarding what constitutes a large layout of cash to be in business, you are absolutely right. Compared to say the reprographics industry, where a single lease on a high volume machine is a million dollars depreciated over several years, the start up is minor. However, when I order a machine from Xerox, I pick which machine I want based on my customer traffic, geographic and socioeconomic surroundings and the price/ quality/ speed business model I choose to pursue. With GW, the initial stock was completely of their choosing. The gave the retailer no input into what merchandise they would receive and they never sent a selection of items that would move fast. Most LGS have to sell what they have in order to generate the cash needed to order what the customers really want. If that is not setting a retailer up for failure, what is?

Discounts = Tier System

That little fanboy inside you must just goo in it's pants every time GW looks your way.

That is an incrdible amount of bollocks written in one paragraph.

I think I will trust mikhaila with many many years experience running stores and the fact he is talking business in the real world and not the bitter twisted bile you seem to come up with. Not only that, but it mirrors my own knowledge as to how this works.

if gw cares so much about profit why dont they start selling cigarettes.

garret wrote:if gw cares so much about profit why dont they start selling cigarettes.

coz it stunts growth and they want the little 10 year olds to reach the expensive vehicles on the top shelf.

Shoosh now garret. The grown-ups are talking.

but im serious. if they want money so much they would switch to another product.
With this move there going to destroy there business.
if they isolate ther loyalists there going to destroy there games.
Even if bed wetters are there main source of income whos going to teach them if there are no hobbyiest.
Btw can we use bed wtters as an official term for younglings?

taebeck wrote:Next time try reading comprehension. I said GW wanted to put independents out of the GW business.

Why be civil when you can be an abrasive pormwrangler instead? Why should any of us care about what you're saying if you can't be bothered not to insult the intelligence of the people you're responding to?

Agamemnon2 wrote:

taebeck wrote:Next time try reading comprehension. I said GW wanted to put independents out of the GW business.

Why be civil when you can be an abrasive pormwrangler instead? Why should any of us care about what you're saying if you can't be bothered not to insult the intelligence of the people you're responding to?

Why do you even bother getting your butt out of bed?

I haven't read all of the post but just wanted to chime in.....


I'm an ex GW employee and this is a big reason why. There's been talk for some time about making the shift and they finally have started to really implement it. The regular stores are to simply get people into the game(this is what new employee's are taught)and get them to spend money

The Bunkers and LGS are where actual gaming is suppose to happen. NOT at the regular GW stores

Vladsimpaler wrote:Why do you even bother getting your butt out of bed?

Spite.

Daggermaw wrote:We (the dedicated gamers) are getting pushed aside for the kids and people that accidentally walk into a GW thinking it sells video games

This is one of the most unintentionally hilarious things I've read. "Hello, Games Workshop? You got Modern Combat 2? What the hell, you guys suck, you never have anything in stock"

It's only more funny when there's a GAME or EB next door, like my local GW.

livingregret wrote:I haven't read all of the post but just wanted to chime in.....


I'm an ex GW employee and this is a big reason why. There's been talk for some time about making the shift and they finally have started to really implement it. The regular stores are to simply get people into the game(this is what new employee's are taught)and get them to spend money

The Bunkers and LGS are where actual gaming is suppose to happen. NOT at the regular GW stores

I just opened a 25 table Bunker next to my store in a Mall, with a huge amount of support from GW, and now that I think about it, they have been having their three local stores push some customers up to us for the tournaments we are running. So in some ways, this actually fits.

But many of their stores still have a good amount of tables in them, and I know that in store gaming makes a store more money than empty tables, so I still can't see them going all the way to a model with no in store gaming. Guess we'll see either way in the coming couple of years.


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I'm thinking it might be a win/win in some ways. They don't have the cost of staffing a bunker in Philly, and I'll be selling a lot more models.

Tyranids have been insane the last week.

malfred wrote:So the basic thing is you're arguing this will results in one time sales and not regular customers?

But as soon as they become regular customers, they're vets and thus need to be kicked out

Our local store has done this for quite some time now and it isn't a major problem. It's a pretty small store in a busy mall (Bullring, Birmingham).

When I go in to chat with the guys there, if it's a quiet day, as it usually is, they'll chat for hours about whatever, but the instant somebody new comes into the store, they'll excuse themselves and go to talk to them, sometimes coming right back, other times getting involved and chatting.

There's only 3 gaming tables and all are set up for introductory games, if you book in advance they're cool with games, but just turning up to game is only allowed it's quiet.

I really don't think any of the above will impact GW, it's there, it's not perfect, but it works for them mostly, and the guys who work in the stores are gamers, they want to teach new players and also talk to equally experienced gamers, discuss painting, gaming and such with people who don't have snot hanging from their noses


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Ouze wrote:

Daggermaw wrote:We (the dedicated gamers) are getting pushed aside for the kids and people that accidentally walk into a GW thinking it sells video games

This is one of the most unintentionally hilarious things I've read. "Hello, Games Workshop? You got Modern Combat 2? What the hell, you guys suck, you never have anything in stock"

My favourite was when an old man came in and asked if they did scaled replicas of the Mary Celeste. I directed him to a hobby shop down the street as being more likely to stock them.

And you hear them on the phone all the time explaining that they don't stock computer games, it's hilarious that people don't even consider what the name might mean.

GW is a business with shareholders who want to make more money, if they think this will do that it will go ahead until it proves otherwise...

I do think they should lose the Workshop part of the name if this does happen though as surely thats breaking trade desription...?

Mick

I said GW wanted to put independents out of the GW business.

In most of the US, GW's potentially largest single market, most areas still have no GW stores and GW's sales in most of the US therefore come through independent retailers. Additionally, there's a whole department of people at GW US HQ devoted to talking independent retailers into carrying as much GW product as possible. Therefore, the idea that GW wants independent retailers to stop selling GW product is not plausible.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Why do you even bother getting your butt out of bed?

I'm the bad guy? Out of all the nerfherders and crodpronkers on this thread, I'm supposedly the biggest waste of time? I am honored and bemused.

BishopGore wrote:And you hear them on the phone all the time explaining that they don't stock computer games, it's hilarious that people don't even consider what the name might mean.

That sounds like a logical mistake to make. Video game stores have names like Gameshack, Game-o-rama and Gamestop. Assuming Games Workshop is just more of the same isn't that far off. The strangest thing I met at the GW was an elderly gentleman who'd done his life's work in injection moulding, and was curious about the technical aspects of GW models.

BishopGore wrote:Our local store has done this for quite some time now and it isn't a major problem. It's a pretty small store in a busy mall (Bullring, Birmingham).

When I go in to chat with the guys there, if it's a quiet day, as it usually is, they'll chat for hours about whatever, but the instant somebody new comes into the store, they'll excuse themselves and go to talk to them, sometimes coming right back, other times getting involved and chatting.

There's only 3 gaming tables and all are set up for introductory games, if you book in advance they're cool with games, but just turning up to game is only allowed it's quiet.

I really don't think any of the above will impact GW, it's there, it's not perfect, but it works for them mostly, and the guys who work in the stores are gamers, they want to teach new players and also talk to equally experienced gamers, discuss painting, gaming and such with people who don't have snot hanging from their noses


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ouze wrote:

Daggermaw wrote:We (the dedicated gamers) are getting pushed aside for the kids and people that accidentally walk into a GW thinking it sells video games

This is one of the most unintentionally hilarious things I've read. "Hello, Games Workshop? You got Modern Combat 2? What the hell, you guys suck, you never have anything in stock"

My favourite was when an old man came in and asked if they did scaled replicas of the Mary Celeste. I directed him to a hobby shop down the street as being more likely to stock them.

And you hear them on the phone all the time explaining that they don't stock computer games, it's hilarious that people don't even consider what the name might mean.

I wonder if anyone stocks a scale model of the crew of the Marie Celeste.

Jeez, I'd feel really weird about this if all the GWs in MA hadn't already closed down. I only started playing a few months ago, but my LGS has a lot of players so I could care less either way.

You have to keep in mind that they have a point in that people who have been playing a while don't spend as much money. Take Vintage or Legacy magic players: they're a crappy market because they never buy new product. Granted, most of the 40k players I know are constantly buying and painting new armies, but judging from the attitudes of a lot of people I see here, there's a pretty big crowd of people who complain about GW at every turn, and brag about not giving them any money. Is it any surprise GW is abandoning people who don't give them money?

And unfortunately, since they're a public company they're legally constrained to increasing shareholder value as much as possible. If some dick investor comes to the conclusion that GW hasn't tapped a good market, they could get minority shareholders together for a suit and possibly run GW into the ground, which would ruin it for everyone.

Shifting focus to new players is this manner in would screw a lot of veterans with nowhere else to play, but it would ultimately be better for the game in the long run.

Looking at the changes listed in the OP, GW stores are going to become less nice of a place to be. Part of waht i liked about my FLGS, was the F of it, friendly. Looking at theese changes it's going to become more serious and less jokey, no atmosphere. the fact that pick me up games would be disallowed makes me unhappy. I hope it doesnt happen.

On a note for them, i think they will lose money with these changes, for two reasons.
1) And i have done this, you often walk into a FLGS and think "right i'm going to buy a howling banshee squad and a new paintbrush" so you walk in and perhaps a character model catches your eye and you think "oh i may as well get this, its only a couple of quid" (i often do this with eldar jetbikes). But since they'll become less nice more people will order online and the chances are you wont be as tempted to buy something else.
2)I also think that people will lose some respect for GW, as all the friendlyness willl be gone, and people may use sites like wayland games etc. more often.

I haven't read most of this thread, but I feel like imposing my entirely uneducated and unnecessary opinion onto this thread because this is the internet and that's what the internet is for.

When I first read OP's comments, I thought it was a troll/joke/whatever because all of the claims are just exaggerations of things that GW is currently accused of all the time (ignoring vets, only caring about kids, quick turnover, general dickery, etc.), but there may be some legitimacy to it. I don't know.

If this is true, I don't see it going well for GW (at least in the US). From what I understand, in Europe and Australia (I don't know much about the rest of the world), gaming typically takes place at independent gaming clubs and stores are primarily just for buying minis. That isn't the case in the US, and the Warhammer hobby is sustained, in no small part, by GW stores and the FLGS. Removing GW stores will remove the actual game from a lot of players, as well as doing little to attract new kids; let's face it, a store full of people enjoying a game will make most impressionable young children more likely to want to play.

I see this hurting GW's retail chain. Granted, I hate GW stores, so I wouldn't mind seeing them die, but I think GW retail will definitely not profit from this course of action (if it's true).

Fullheadofhair,


You can certainly side with Mikhaila. I am glad he had a great experience with his Rep in ’88. That was a time when GW was a pleasure to work with. They were hungry for new outlets in the states. Their prices at the time were right in line with all the other mini companies like Ral Partha and Grenidier. Target games had not come along yet, so they had not felt any real pressure from any direct competitors. If you had an issue with stock or product, they were more than willing to help. You could order as much or as little as you liked and they were just happy you were selling their product. They didn’t dictate how you merchandised it in your store.

The GW issues I am detailing started late 90’s/ early 00’s. They started seeing direct competition from companies like Target Games and FASA. (Warzone, Chronopia and Vor for those of you that were not around) They started ramping up their online store and were concerned that their revenue was being hurt by Independent retailers selling online at a discounted price. If they found out you were selling online, at a discounted price, GW would either cut the discount % you were receiving or simply refuse to sell to you. If you wanted to start carrying Games Workshop during this period, you were required to lay out a significant amount of cash, arrange your GW area a certain way, with a certain number of blisters, comprised of the codes that they deemed top sellers. I am not sure why they always deemed things like Gorkamorka and Frateris Militia “Top Codes.” If you had a problem with your order or defective product, they acted like they didn’t believe you. I am fairly certain that more than one person has had Games Workshop require that a tiny miscast part be shipped back. Treatment like this is not good business and in no way encourages business to market or carry your product.

Agamemnon2,

I was perfectly civil up to the point when someone implied that I was incompetent and that I have not seen and heard what I have seen and heard. Bases on your own responses, I suspect that when someone comes at you in a condescending way, you will be less than jolly as well.

BrassScorpion,

In case I was unclear, this model was most obvious in areas where a retail store was in direct competition with a GW store. I only have direct knowledge of events in Houston and North Texas, but based on previous conversations with gamers and store owners from other parts of the country, I am of the opinion that it was wide spread.


To be clear, I like GW games. I still collect, paint and play GW games to this day. They had cleaned up their act once the actions I have described above drove their stock prices and image into the ground.

My original comment still stands, GW has had periods in the past when their business model drove customers away and I would not be surprised if they had periods of the same kind again.

taebeck wrote:I was perfectly civil up to the point when someone implied that I was incompetent and that I have not seen and heard what I have seen and heard. Bases on your own responses, I suspect that when someone comes at you in a condescending way, you will be less than jolly as well.

I should hope people aspire to be better than I.

This all just seems like another run-of-the-mill anti GW screed. If I weren't so immersed in the "culture" of tabletop gaming, I suppose I'd be put off by the idea of walking into a store full of overweight, bearded shut-ins. I'd also like to point out that on a particularly busy day my LGS generally smells like a monkey house. Maybe GW thinks this is hurting the inflow of new clientele.

I do have to ask though...

WTF is a pormwrangler?

I have a mixed feeling about this if its true.....

I understand the need for new blood and the need to keep leeches like myself out of the store =) Yep I'd go there to play only becasue a place 5 min away sells GWS at 20% off...

I spoke to the manager told him I appreciated his store and all the work he did, and if he could even give me a 10% discount I'd buy more from him but GWS ties his hands.

Now the GWS's are closed and its up to LGS s and gaming clubs (shame less plug www.mi40k.com) to carry the load.

I think the area will miss the new people the GWS's could bring to the hobby, and if they wanted to make a store solely for the purpose of bringing in new gamers I wouldnt have a problem with it.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:n0t_u

saying what I said, but with graphs!!

If I could ask GW senior management one question, it would be 'Why do you think fewer customers are a good thing?'

P.S. If the rationale for this is so that parents won't be put off buying stuff for little Johnny by having geeky looking kids in store, then someone needs to batter the side of GW execs head with a large soggy pike (the fish or the weapon, makes no difference ) while explaining that toy soldiers will never be cool, so there's no need to try!!

Who nows if toy soldiers are going to be "cool" or not? We all hope in your last message, we would think so to. Lots of kids(in the city area) Think that doing Drugs and Smoking earns you some kind of Badge in life or something.(and it doesnt) To me Fights and being in Wars(real ones) count . Im not going to talk and bash on kids who have no where else to go. Ive been up to a college and it was an independ store of hoppy i was at and it was nice, matching up to a GW and every type of person was there. "cool" or not which if people want a estimation it 2/10 that were not cool.

This is awful and doesn't even make since if it's true. I just started 40k and without playing in store I would only have ONE opponent to play once I finally build up my first army. If this is true than it will be sad to see the outcome for Gamesworkshop. To me it sounds like, if it's true, the store will go from a great social experience to a hollow post-office like center of business. If I spend that much money on expensive metal Sister of Battle models I expect to be able to have good opportunities to use them.

I for one would be very dissappointed if GW instituted a no hobbying in store business model. That is really what got me interested. I saw people able to use the store as a base for their hobby, made the hobby have a more friendly appeal to it. Also they already seem to focus on new gamers pretty well. But I have to say when I finally built up the required cash base to begin the hobby the red shirt that was helping me could have taken more advantage. I told him to set me up with an army, and all he did was set me up with the cumpulsory requirements, I probably would have dumped in another $300 if he started telling me what i should buy. also I did notice that it was hard to garner their attention when a game was going on. But it is a 2 hr trip to the nearest GW for me so I have only been twice, I use a very accomadating IR. But to be honest I think the only thing they need to do is be more helpful than asking "Need help finding anything", a better question would be "would you like to try a game?" or if they see someone looking through a codex that is new to ask if they would like to look at the display of the models for that particular army. Specific questions get you specific answers. Also talking about the hobby and bringing other non GW working gamers to the store is an awesome attractant for new gamers. Honestly I think any 14 year old that tries to get involved will not have the cash (unless their begging their mommy or daddy or wash dishes or something) to buy into the hobby in a meaningful way. I wouldn't have dreamed of it when I was 14, I respect anybody that had that kind of dedication at that age. The best and brightest way they could go is to increase the size of their stores with more gaming areas, making space for more experienced hobby boys and letting them do the work they do anyway. I learned from non-workers and I continue to pour money into them because of the community of gamers that keep the hobby interesting. I think it is unwise to fire your best free labor.

It seems rather obsurd to me, In Australia the hobby is a stores' lifeblood, no hobby, no new hobbyists. Kids constantly go ooh and aah and mummy, what's in there?
Down South I'm sure half of all staff would quit working for GW if this were to happen.

Monster Rain wrote:WTF is a pormwrangler?

Read And Another Thing... by Eoin Colfer.

Krellnus wrote: I'm sure half of all staff would quit working for GW if this were to happen.

Take off GWhobby from stores, fire GWhobby orientated positions, change to smaller stores and you saved a load of money... if that kills sales or not ( probably will) is another "problem"... Thinking about it, isnt that what happened to whitedwarf, GW.com, blackgobbo, specialistgames and bitz service?

Yah, they keep cutting all the things that don't exclusively make money, I get why but some things need to exist, even if run at a loss in order to support the elements of the buiisness that do make money. Shops do it all the time, they sell special items at a loss in order to get people in so they'll buy other stuff while they're there.

Mailorder in particular used to be fantastic, anyone else remember the 'Troll' MO magazine you got free if you subscribed to WD? Packed full of deals and special sets for doing conversions featured in the man mag and all done with a sense of humour, something else misisng quite a bit these days. :(

They don't need cigarettes, Garret. All they need are those ink packs they put with the money to help prevent theft. Except the ink is replaced with LSD and there is a prize in every box

I have watched this very business model in action in local coffee shops - not the chains like Starbucks, the small indie shops that tens to stay open late. It goes like this:

1) Store opens. No business at first.

2) The local gamers (mainly MTG, some tabletop RPG, even some LARP) discover the place is open late. Business builds.

3) Business levels off.

4) To build new sales, the onwer decides to increase the rate of table turnover and bans all gamers. Gamers leave, never to return.

5) Sales slump.

6) Owners realize they blew it, and change their minds. But by now, the gamers have found other places to gather.

7) Store cloeses.

I have personally watched 5 cycle through that process. I have even warned three of them. And still, they do it that way every time.

Looks like GW has reached stage 4. Time will tell if they can make it work any better than the coffee shop owners did.

I don't really think they will do this to most of their stores. From what I've heard, they are doing some changes to the existing model from 10 years ago. At the time, it was put small stores in high traffic malls. Unfortunately, malls aren't doing as well as they did, they have high rent, and they dictate the hours a store must be open. As the high rent leases expire, they move the stores to a lower rent shopping center or street location. Costs go down, and the store is designed to be run by 1-2 staff at the most, with generally 1 full time salaried manage, and assistant, and possibly 1-2 part timers. Some stores may just have those 1-2 guys.

I think the area manager who talked to the OP may have been talking about what he feels the effects of these changes might be. (Guess on my part, obviously.) I don't think it's actually a plan on GW's part to cut out the hobby and play aspects from the stores, only because over the years they have been so adamant that those things sell more models. I know that copying a lot of those strategies off of GW stores led me to increase my sales of GW product in my own stores.

So maybe we are discussing something that isn't a goal, but something one person fears might happen, and may or may not occur in all GW stores. Hard to believe they would deemphsize painting, since 11% of their sales are paints.

In Houston GW has closed two stores to my knowledge, there might be a third. They relocated the store that used to be in the Willobrook plaza right across from and AMC24. The area was heavily trafficed with having the theater there and several resteraunts in the same area and the mall across the highway. The store had seven tables of which 4-6 of them were in near constant use during the weekends and summer afternoons. The new location is on the back side of a strip mall satellite building with zero visibility from the street in a stipmall anchored by a Petco, and has two tables. I tried to play a game there and couldn't even find a place to store my cases during the battle, I had to put them back in my truck. When I inquired about the decision to move the store to this location I got a deer in the headlights reaction and a stumbling explanation that all the stores in the US were downsizing and only Battle Bunkers would offer larger venues.

I can't explain it. It seems to be like a purposeful action to kill off business.

Well, as has been pointed out on other threads, GW considers 2/3 of their business to be selling the minis. The gaming aspect of it is much less important to them Given that, the change in venue to smaller stores with less gaming room makes perfect sense.

I don't know what they expect people to do with those minis if they aren't gaming with them, but there you go.

In short; GW is a toy company. Get use to it.

Well, Sworth didn't answer my questions, so I can't be sure if what he said was accurate or not. I suspect not. Or what was said is horribly misrepresented and skewed.

mikhaila wrote:Costs go down, and the store is designed to be run by 1-2 staff at the most, with generally 1 full time salaried manage, and assistant, and possibly 1-2 part timers. Some stores may just have those 1-2 guys.

IMHO, this is part of the problem, as the quality of an outlet is directly impacted by the quality of the staff. Running a shop with two staffers means that each staff member is given a heavier workload - as they are responsible for building displays and painting store armies in addition to usual retail tasks such as handling sales, answering questions, running demos, keeping the store well stocked, clean etc. If the store wanted to run their own events or support veteran's nights, this would again increase the workload of these staffers - which may help explain why GW is looking to actively discourage in-store gaming outside of chain-wide events. Overworked staff are unhappy staff, and unhappy staff don't make for the best ambassadors for the company. In addition, considering that GW doesn't pay their staffers a great wage (at least in Canada), this kind of "more for less" strategy leads to considerable churn in the store staff. While I don't expect the resultant churn to much affect the day-to-day operations of the outlet, I would think that it might be hard for the manager to grow the business when his team keeps changing.

I don't see GW's products as toys, for the most part. Of course the models are, in reality, inconsiquential objects used for the sole purpose of entertainment, so they meet the definition for toys, but most of the items one would find in a Toys 'R Us or similar stores don't require a community to really enjoy them. Video games are kind of a medium ground IMO. They are toys and require a community (unless your a hermit who sticks to single player), but access to the community is easily obtained from one's home. Yes, you can set up a table at your home or rent a space to set up tables and seek players out, but the logistics are pretty intense to do so, and let's be honest there aren't many of the gamers we see in the store or at Gamesday that we'd feel comfortable sharing our address with lol. The hobby is community driven. Take that community away or make it less accessible and sales will diminish as a result.

I went to stores for the community. I am perfectly fine, and probably more comfortable with ordering models for my army online. I would pack up my stuff and go to the store to play and socialize. I don't see myself contiuing to pay the likes for fifty dollars for five plastic men if finding people to play with becomes a chore, or I have to compromise the comfort of my home by having strangers or people that are only really tolerable in the small doses a visit to the store satisfied stopping by. That's not to be mean, but to be realistic. There's more to it, such as space requirements many people would have issues with, not having support for a fairly complex game and so on.

If selling their product is their goal then one would think that GW would be looking at ways to make the hobby more accesible. Closing down stores, or cutting down the number of tables in a normally busy store kinda goes against that grain.

mikhaila wrote:I don't really think they will do this to most of their stores. From what I've heard, they are doing some changes to the existing model from 10 years ago. At the time, it was put small stores in high traffic malls. Unfortunately, malls aren't doing as well as they did, they have high rent, and they dictate the hours a store must be open. As the high rent leases expire, they move the stores to a lower rent shopping center or street location. Costs go down, and the store is designed to be run by 1-2 staff at the most, with generally 1 full time salaried manage, and assistant, and possibly 1-2 part timers. Some stores may just have those 1-2 guys.

I think the area manager who talked to the OP may have been talking about what he feels the effects of these changes might be. (Guess on my part, obviously.) I don't think it's actually a plan on GW's part to cut out the hobby and play aspects from the stores, only because over the years they have been so adamant that those things sell more models. I know that copying a lot of those strategies off of GW stores led me to increase my sales of GW product in my own stores.

So maybe we are discussing something that isn't a goal, but something one person fears might happen, and may or may not occur in all GW stores. Hard to believe they would deemphsize painting, since 11% of their sales are paints.

This makes since. I've seen how malls are going down, and I actually go to a GW at a shopping center frequently that only has two employees most of the time. The service is great every time. I hope what you posted is what might happen, or is happening. Could my store, that came out this past summer, be a result of a new business model?

This was the SoCal district manager?

If so I know who it is, and I would NOT take this as new GW business model at all, but rather his ideal impression, which makes him... less than popular from the general customers to the red shirts.

A couple points about this guy:
-He came from outside the company, and has never really played or shown an interest in playing any of the 3 main games, to my knowledge.
-He, and he alone, wishes to get the veterans if not out of the stores then into the battle bunkers. Most veterans kinda laugh at this, since the local SoCal bunker isn't even remotely convienent for a good portion of the area.
-Did I mention he doesn't play these games? Or at least doesn't seem to: he had to ask a redshirt what the turn order was for a game of 40k, for a demo. You know, the move -> shoot -> assault one.
-He has little respect for hobbyists, and sees the product as a "widget" to sell. That's the extent of his thoughts, and it was told to a customer.
-He can be an alright guy, but he has a massive ego and has destroyed at least a table or two in his attempts to "fix" them. On his behalf, he really was attempting to fix it. He just seems to have no clue.

He wants the veterans out to make more room for newer people to buy things. Great from a short term marketing standpoint... but the stores cannot support this for a long period and it would seem a short boost at best; his lack of experience with the hobby is affecting his perception, as he seems to misunderstand the role of the veterans to such stores.

While it's a sad state and yes, can affect the local area and might have some tenets looked at by other areas, I would be in absolute shock if this were a nationwide plan; indeed as several posts in this thread have shown it's more likely not the case.

Well, the US is not the world and in other countries those changes already take place.

Vulcan wrote:I have watched this very business model in action in local coffee shops - not the chains like Starbucks, the small indie shops that tens to stay open late. It goes like this:

1) Store opens. No business at first.

2) The local gamers (mainly MTG, some tabletop RPG, even some LARP) discover the place is open late. Business builds.

3) Business levels off.

4) To build new sales, the onwer decides to increase the rate of table turnover and bans all gamers. Gamers leave, never to return.

5) Sales slump.

6) Owners realize they blew it, and change their minds. But by now, the gamers have found other places to gather.

7) Store cloeses.

I have personally watched 5 cycle through that process. I have even warned three of them. And still, they do it that way every time.

Looks like GW has reached stage 4. Time will tell if they can make it work any better than the coffee shop owners did.

I can see the comparison you're making and it's a valid one but unlike coffee shops GW sells something no one else does, their stores may lose business and even close but the company will rumble on and keep making models even if (in an extreme case) they abandoned the hobby side of things completely, outsourced the rules and stopped selling paints/tools etc. They'd still exist as a model company and that is what they do best after all.

If its not already been said, we need more stores with gaming rooms , that would solve a lot of problems. It can become so overcrowded especially on beginners days .

sworth9411 wrote:
No more hobbyist gaming in the store (other than national events etc.)
No pick me up games in the store (I.E. Meetups are allowed but Frown upon)
No more hobbying in the store
Staff should focus more on brand new clients only
Hobbiyist dont spend money, New clients spend the most amount of money on the hobby so lets focus on new clients


Lets face the facts this is an extremely niche hobby that does not appeal to everyone, why would GW intentionally alienate its hobbiyists and limit their game expierience in the store? This is kind of the vibe I am getting from this plan, and although it may work to get a stream of new hobbiyists in the door, will it be enough to keep them past their initial purchase without a large web of hobbiyists that meet up and play at the stores?

I for one never was a basement / home hobbyist and have always played strictly at stores, I also spend absurd amounts of money at GW (according to my taxes almost $4000 in 2009), I am quite upset that it could be harder to play at the stores.

It seems their investors want to see GW make more money, myself having years of retail and manafacturing expierience have one word for them....China.

I am curious to here your what you think of this rumor, so please no one stupid answers of "That Sucks, Boo all NoObs...." I would like to hear well educated opinions.

They're delusional. No I take that back. Their short sighted.

New clients spend more, in the short term. Hobbiest stay with you for decades and give a smaller stream of revenue short term, long term will out spend the new clients that buy and dont stick with it past their 18 month window.

You had to have not heard about the no playing in stores. Thats crazy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

davetaylor wrote:
There may be some new stores opened that just don't have the gaming/hobby space. I think there's one already like that in the Schaumburg Mall in Illinois, and I know there are stores like that in Japan.

When I worked in retail stores in GW Australia we never allowed pick-up games, ran specific scenarios on Thursday night Games Nights, and you could only sit at the painting table if you were getting a painting lesson from a staff member. I'm not 100% sure if it's the same now (been away for too long) but I do have to say that GW hobbyists played at home or their friend's place or at their local club (usually held in some sort of community hall) and would come into the GW store to pick up things for their army (new models, paints, etc).
In the store that I managed (Sydney City) we had a great existing community and a lot of folks who hadn't seen toy soldiers that came through the doors every day. We'd talk with everyone, learn what was going on around town, then spread the word. We helped connect new recruits with existing clubs, we help new recruits start new clubs, we talked people through building their own tables.

All without needing to have gaming tables and hobby space available for our customers, no matter what level of the hobby.

Amusingly enough, each week we turned over two, sometimes three times what some of today's US GW stores do in a week, and that was 14 years ago. My store was not the only one achieving those numbers, and I know many of my former customers are still in the hobby, because I see them on forums and visiting GW stores whenever I head back to Sydney.

What's my point?

While I haven't heard anything like what the OP heard, if it much of what he said did come to pass it would not be the end of the hobby.

The world is different from what it was 14 years ago. Times change. Not all change is a bad thing, but sometimes it can take time to see the good, in my opinion.

Cheers
Dave

Let me preface this by saying this is assuming that its all true from the original poster.

Now having gotten that out of the way. Dave, your making the same mistake as GW is:

The Japanese market is not the US market. The Australian market is not the US market. The UK market is not the US market.

If GW goes through with this stupid set up, their going to lose sales. Just like in 2001 one when they slapped down the internet sales and its going to maket them take 2 step back and years to recover again.

There's no good here. Your antagonizing your customer base. Again. GW needs to learn their markets better. Treating them all alike, which is what this road seems to do, is stupid.

I have a question. For small mall stores with a couple of tables and cramped space, is gaming for veterans and newbs really an option?

With the exception of the Battle Bunker, most shops around here are tiny mall closets whose few tables are filled with teenagers gaming. That's all well and good, but getting near 30 now (not old, just not teen) I don't feel that comfortable gaming there. On the other hand, if it was a bunch of 30 something vets gaming there, would parents really feel good about leaving their kids there while they shop? If I were a non-gamer parent I wouldn't

I think their move to micro-hobby centres that only cater to new players will work really, really well for GW's bottom line. They've started dealing more fairly with independants and are happy to have them develop game space.

My local store has
! warhammer table
1 40k table
1 LOTR table
1 small table for general use, it's not a big store

WTF??!!! This is insanely crazy, pushing aside dedicated hobbyists who have nowhere else to play other than their 'local friendly gaming store'!!! It is the only place I can play for miles around. What will happen to the beginner clubs/ battles etc and the odd Apocalypse?

Personally I cannot begin to imagine why they would do this (although I am only 14), I am speechless and outraged!!!

EDIT: About the space, at my GW (Derby), we have a large display table, one side 40k, one side Fantasy, and one side Lord of the Rings, each separated by a large decorated wall. On the end of this is space for four beginners or 'clients' to make and paint models. Then there is three 48" by 48" boards. Different scenery boards may be placed on these, making for a different battle each time. These may also be individually commissioned when unused for making and painting for veterans, eg me. Then there is a small back up table when it gets busy with gamers. In the rare case of an apocalypse battle the entire shop is used for battling, making one giant board. So we have plenty of space for gamers and 'clients' alike, although 'clients' come first the gamers are very respected and most are close friends with the shopkeepers. As the shopkeepers are still at college we tend to meet up when they are not at work.

EDIT 2: Our shop even has an upstairs and a downstairs, both unused.

I imagine the beginner clubs and escalation leagues will continue. From what it sounds like, they're just trying to minimize the people who hang out and play pick up games while maximizing organized events.

Truthfully,it makes perfect sense. GW is the big dog in the mini-gaming world and it's staple games have survived for a long time. They have a good,stable product and they know it. Now,they want to expand it and make it more mainstream instead of just a "niche game." I wouldn't be surprised at all if GW's goal is to have 40k stuff being sold in big-box stores like Target and bookstore chains like Barnes & Noble in the future,just like Magic:The Gathering and D&D books. Contrary to what seems to be the popular opinion in this thread,the whole FLGS model doesn't GROW the game. How many FLGS's do you know of that have had to expand to meet increased demand,either through acquiring a larger space or expanding into multiple stores? Not many,I can tell you.

Well,why is that? Any well-run FLGS is pretty much dependant on a social network of gamers. New people come in and join that community from time to time. At the same time,people LEAVE that community from time to time,as well,for various reasons. The FLGS's survives by adding enough people to that community to replace the ones that leave. At the same time,it doesn't do a whole lot to GROW gaming. If they did,then more FLGS's would be popping up and expanding,and that's not the case?

The reason is,the FLGS model was never intended to be a buisness model for growth in the first place. Who came up with that buisness model? I'll tell you who. Some gamer thought that it would be an awesome idea to create a store where gamers could buy and hang out and play games. The gamers who run those stores are more than content to earn a living doing what they love,and what they love is gaming. Nobody opens a FLGS with the idea that it's going to turn into a franchise and they can retire as millionaires off of it.

The biggest failing of FLGS's to grow gaming is the fact that the buisness model effectively makes it a "hang-out" for a community of gamers. New customers are assimilated into that social network. Now,what happens if you take away all that playing space? The store ceases to become a hang-out and becomes less of a hub for it's community. Newbies who come in and buy stuff are then forced to create their own social network of gamers in order to play. They are infinately more likely to introduce the game to friends and relatives from outside the gaming community than they are if there's a ready-made social network in place. This introduces the game to more people. The more people you introduce the game to,the more people are going to pick it up,and the more new customers you have. I can speak from first hand experience on this. I got into M:tG like this. One day,one of the guys in high school walked in with some Magic cards that he picked up from the bookstore in the mall. We didn't have a FLGS in that area. So,in order to play this game that he thought looked pretty cool,he wound up roping about 6-8 of his friends into trying it,and we got hooked. The same thing happened years later with 40k. One of my friends wound up picking up the 3rd edition boxed set while looking for some D&D books at the FLGS,which was over a 2 hour drive away. He hooked 4-5 of us,and we started building armies by heading the FLGS on weekends to buy stuff,then playing at home. The same thing happened with paintball. One of my buddies thought it looked cool and bought a marker,but the nearest field was 3 hours away,so he roped 10 of us into buying equipment and playing in some woods behind his cousin's house.

If this is true,then GW is making a smart buisness decision to try and use new customers to grow new gaming circles instead of supporting existing ones. That's how you expand. Then,when they've grown those little social networks,it sends them to your FLGS to strengthen those social networks,except now it's doing it 4-5 people at a time instead of one at a time.

And for another,I realize that everybody would like to think that every 40k gamer at your FLGS is a paragon of virtue and a shining role-model for those new to the hobby,but get real. For every person like that I've played/met in a FLGS,there's 2 that were shining examples of everything that's WRONG with the hobby. I don't know how many pickup games I've played with "veteran" 40k players that don't know even basic rules,like what "Instant Death" means. I've played people that don't even OWN their own Codex,and have to grab a copy off the shelf of the store when they've got a rules question. I've had a guy drop 2 empty bases and a Sailor Moon statuette as a unit of Eldar War Walkers. I've played a guy that already had terrain pre-setup,claimed the side that all the terrain on it as "his,"and copped a 'tude when I asked him to roll-off for table edge. I've played at least two pick up games where I've almost had my opponent tabled,and he pulls a,"Oh...look at the time. I've to go. I guess we'll just call this a draw." I've met/played a ton of great people at FLGS's,too,but does anybody really expect GW to stake their financial future on who's in the store at any given time?

Whatever1 wrote:I've met/played a ton of great people at FLGS's,too,but does anybody really expect GW to stake their financial future on who's in the store at any given time?

But isn't that your customer base? Part of the challenge/goal should be to have a product range that continually "encourages" these core players to want to spend money/invest on a continual basis.

Without a doubt, their is a need to grow and expand the customer base - one of the best way to increase sales is to increase your market potential. We'll have to see how effective this tactic turns out to be. For penetration into the large chains (Target, etc.) I'd think a range of products designed to introduce people to the hobby would be ideal - say WFB/40K Basic. If they were well designed, they could then "funnel" back to the core products. Actually, for a while, wasn't that happening with the LotR stuff? Without the statistics and detailed market reviews, it's pretty hard to make any conclusions other than "educated" guesses.

Another point, IMHO your comment re varying "quality" of FLGS would be equally applicable to the chain stores...

While I can't say I agree with the tactic (assuming GW is actually moving in this direction), who knows.

AJC

GW is in the business of making toy soldiers and occasionally rules to go with them, they are not in the business of running retail/gaming stores necessarily. They went into the market of running stores to attempt to grow the hobby, but it hasn't turned out to be the most lucrative adventure, therefore they are growing and changing to meet the needs of the world as it is, with the internet and such the need for a brick and mortar FLGS is less then it was in the nineties when they opened all of those hobby centers to begin with.

I agree completely with Whatever1. FLGS are often club hangouts and if you're not friends with the "locals" it generally feels awkward to hang there. The FLGS that's litterally three blocks from my house is my least favorite store within three hours, so I go there if I need to buy some paint or glue, but they're more of a D&D crowd and sadly I gave up the good old D&D 15 years ago so I never feel totally confortable hanging out there especially since I want to talk about 40k with others that know what I am talking about.

I would rather drive 30-40 minutes to a store that is more 40k focused and has a nicer group of guys that hang there when I have the free time, otherwise I play with my two friends over at there place were we can smoke and have a couple beers while we play.

Gamer dorks aren't the most socially skilled people and normally not the men(overwhelmingly men anyways) a parent wants their teen/pre-teen kid being around on a weekly basis, so GW sells the goods out of a tiny inexpensive storefront and the kids need to go find a basement to play in like many of us did while growing up.

If memory serves me correct, this was the original line they boasted when they first started opening the HC's to appease the concerns of the FLGS. That they were there to draw in the new meat at the HC's, then pawn them off to the FLGS to expand thier armies and have a place to play.

Of course, that lasted until 2002 when the 'firebomb the independants' attitude kicked in, internet sales in the US were 'curtailed' and there was a HC in every Mills mall across the US, and then the Regions kicked in with over-zealous Metro Managers. Trade Sales just plainly started screwing over the independants on orders with 'minimums' and 'package deals', and GW Retail itself was fixated (as a business should be) on target numbers. It was a dark few years (in some corners of the US) for them.

So it did not surprise me with all the points that the OP has stated, its a modified version of the original plan. It's even written down in the Red Book by the Kirbster himself. They strayed for about 7 years, but are now getting back on track.

As a side note on the internet sales, in early 2001 I became Manager of a FLGS in Houston; the clientele were constantly asking for discounts on large purchases, of course which, we couldn't do. Then they'd just spout off saying "We'll just go in and do a large order with The Warstore then." So when my rep would call, of course we'd bemoan the fact that we were losing sales (and thus not ordering more product from them) because we could not compete with the online pricing and deep discounts. I'm sure they heard that across the country and you see what has resulted. Good for the FLGS's but sucked for the consumers in the US.

If they kicked out the massive group of people that come down on 40k night, They'd have a riot on their hands.

I think this might be referring to small outlit stores, and order booths.

If they banned "hobists" they'd be cutting 98% of their advertising. It's not just the demmo games that draw peoople in, it's the people playing with non black reach armies.

If they plan to add in "shop-and-go" shops in less populated areas, I can see that being a good idea.

AJCarrington wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:I've met/played a ton of great people at FLGS's,too,but does anybody really expect GW to stake their financial future on who's in the store at any given time?

But isn't that your customer base? Part of the challenge/goal should be to have a product range that continually "encourages" these core players to want to spend money/invest on a continual basis.

Without a doubt, their is a need to grow and expand the customer base - one of the best way to increase sales is to increase your market potential. We'll have to see how effective this tactic turns out to be. For penetration into the large chains (Target, etc.) I'd think a range of products designed to introduce people to the hobby would be ideal - say WFB/40K Basic. If they were well designed, they could then "funnel" back to the core products. Actually, for a while, wasn't that happening with the LotR stuff? Without the statistics and detailed market reviews, it's pretty hard to make any conclusions other than "educated" guesses.

Another point, IMHO your comment re varying "quality" of FLGS would be equally applicable to the chain stores...

While I can't say I agree with the tactic (assuming GW is actually moving in this direction), who knows.

AJC

It's GW's buisness model. They're not discouraging people from spending money on GW stuff. What they're saying is that they want their GW stores to concentrate on new gamers and growing their games,and effectively saying that they want local independant retailors to cater to established GW gamers who want the more traditional FLGS environment. While it is possible that they will lose a few gamers here and there by doing this,there's the old saying about omelettes and breaking eggs. However,by and large,the people they chase out of their stores are just going to go buy their products someplace else. If I've learned anything from reading these forums,it's that the people that complain the loudest about any move GW makes are the first to drop the,"I spend $X on GW every year,"line. We can complain about GW's buisness practices,but when it all boils down to it,they produce fun games and (mostly) cool mini's,and that's what keeps us.

I don't ever see places like Target becoming full line GW dealers. However,I remember back when I was a kid,stores like K-Mart literally had an entire aisle for plastic model kits and modeling supplies. They would probably limit their product lines for stores like that to introductory/bulk items. They'd probably stock the introductory game(Black Reach),Codex's/Army Books,Battle Forces/Battalions,glue,hobby knives,paint sets,spray primer,and their hobby starter set. I could see them doing dummied down models for "big box" retailors,similar to the Black Reach models,though. I don't see them ever stocking individual boxes,blisters,or paints.

I'm throwing the BS flag on this "Rumor", and on top of that, I say, other then moving out of the malls, we really have nothing here but the same old same old "Redshirt mafia" wishful thinking. And coming from some uber pogue"in the know" manager?

Never mind that this guy seems to have been the only one to have heard this, but the source is confirmed here to be a D-bag.

Ask yourself the easy question.

"What does GW need to do to make money in todays economy?"

Simple. They make money by dropping costs. Either by production costs, or by marketing costs.

I have a small GW Mall shop with 6 guys that work there, then 4 of them would be better in either, another smaller shop, or hitting the unemployment line. If the hours aren't justifying the costs, then I find a place with cheaper rent, and keep the store open LONGER.

There arn't even enough tables in mall stores to even do a decent demo game. Why would I want to pay extra to keep putting money in the malls pocket?

The play area doesn't even matter. If I have the shop in a high traffic area, more people come in then if I just had it in a high end mall with half of that number for a shorter number of hours. It's even better if I put it in a place with room for two or three more tables, PLUS room for longer hours. ( Which I might add were alluded to by the company that they were already looking into.)

As to these last couple of posts? Grognard hit the question on the head. I'll go one step further.

The "Original plan" as spouted off by the D bag manager is incorrect, and was retold or understood incorrectly. AND... we're all going at the incorrect information with "facts" that were given... incorrectly.

If I heard the information from four or five people, I'd say, sure. maybe.

One manager, who another poster here has confirmed to be a tool? No. The story sounds like BS to me.

I guess the idea is that they have multiple small single sales person stores with display boards for intro games in popular areas and then have the sales people direct them, as the next step, to the larger battle bunkers or to local clubs.

I have nothing concrete and this is only a guess but there something in the GW investor relations half year review about the single sales person stores being a good model and something they are moving forward with. Also I've heard chatter online about GW trying to introduce the club culture from the UK into other areas such as the US. I guess in the UK they have a more Club focused gamer community where-as in the US its more of a store focused gamer community.

It could be the different cultures however but I think GW initially tried to make the US culture of store focused community work and it ended up not being profitable for them and it also resulted in killing a lot of FLGS that could have done a lot of the work for them. The main problem is big stores require a lot of rent especially in popular areas but if they can put small stores in a popular areas for a lot less rent to get those new people and then try and get people to establish clubs in FLGS, Battle bunkers or community driven ones that rent a hall a couple of times a month, the gamers/hobbiests win and so does GW.

I find reading the threads always amusing because of the passionate back and forth but I think a lot of the arguements are missing the point. GW is a UK based company trying to make a UK business model work across the world. They are going to screw it up (and they have before. I reckon their first attempt to make it in the U.S. failed because I reckon they got U.S. based consultants to try and tell them how to do well in the U.S. and it sounds like they got led astray. Killing competition and trying dominate the market space doesn't work for Wargaming), the important thing is they keep trying a lot of different ways to try and make it work. Dont discount these ideas until you see them in practice.

Grot 6 wrote:"What does GW need to do to make money in todays economy?"

Simple. They make money by dropping costs. Either by production costs, or by marketing costs.

Agree with you post, but thought I'd add something re this item. Best way to make money is increase the sales (somewhat obvious, I know). If the sole focus is on reducing cost, they will have very specific limits as to how far this can take them. In an ideal world, their plan will allow them to increase gross volume of sales while maintaining the same fixed costs. Next couple of months should shed some light as to what/how effective these plans are and will be.

AJC

Whatever1 wrote:And for another,I realize that everybody would like to think that every 40k gamer at your FLGS is a paragon of virtue and a shining role-model for those new to the hobby,but get real. For every person like that I've played/met in a FLGS,there's 2 that were shining examples of everything that's WRONG with the hobby. I don't know how many pickup games I've played with "veteran" 40k players that don't know even basic rules,like what "Instant Death" means. I've played people that don't even OWN their own Codex,and have to grab a copy off the shelf of the store when they've got a rules question. I've had a guy drop 2 empty bases and a Sailor Moon statuette as a unit of Eldar War Walkers. I've played a guy that already had terrain pre-setup,claimed the side that all the terrain on it as "his,"and copped a 'tude when I asked him to roll-off for table edge. I've played at least two pick up games where I've almost had my opponent tabled,and he pulls a,"Oh...look at the time. I've to go. I guess we'll just call this a draw." I've met/played a ton of great people at FLGS's,too,but does anybody really expect GW to stake their financial future on who's in the store at any given time?

I lol'd. So I can't use my GI Joes as titans anymore?

But really I agree with this point. Why just the other day we found out one of the so-called veterans in our group was incredibly wrong about many rules (he is a huge rule lawyer so... idk) and have thus stopped listening to him (he is also kind of a D-bag).

sworth9411 wrote:So Before this turns into a flame thread, I would love to keep an open mind and discussion about this possible new plan, I know for a 20

I for one never was a basement / home hobbyist and have always played strictly at stores, I also spend absurd amounts of money at GW (according to my taxes almost $4000 in 2009), I am quite upset that it could be harder to play at the stores.

I think this is an interesting point you have. You are not a basement/home hobbyist so this rumor im assuming will impact you a lot more. I for one have never painted at a store and always just paint with a few friends. We normally play games at someones house but recently since we have gone to college and gotten apartments we don't have space for our tables and often go to a game store (not a GW) to play our games.

What I am curious about is that you are not a basement/home painter or player. Do you think more people play at stores than they do homes? Do you think people paint more at stores than they do at home? I think this would be an interesting poll. Because if the majority of people played/painted at home, maybe GW is just following the tread of what people are already doing.

The new business model suggested is a fact, whilst I can offer no proof via the interweb other than stating 'this is what I know' I'm sure it ties in with what others have gleaned from their sources.

The overall aim of the new move is to reduce the staffing levels of stores, this is the bottom line. Salary = Dead Money to most shareholders unless that salary is seen as a direct function of 'making money'. Shareholders, Boards of Directors and Proprietors HATE labour costs they are simply a required 'evil'.

The other important swing factor is the Interweb. The GW online site will take more than all of the stores combined this year and forever more. If GW could switch to a 'net only' operation they would do so at the drop of a hat. I cannot express just how important GW considers online sales compared with those of the high street stores. Of course, because of the niche status of the hobby they have to maintain a street presence and ensure that there brand is still being seen and talked about, especially in schools.

If 10 year olds had debit cards the number of GW stores would drop so fast you would miss it if you blinked.

Take note of the rabid zeal with which GW scours Ebay for images, even their own 'Independant Stockists' cannot use their pics or text. IR's are there purely for dessemination of the brand and what it contains but GW want you to come to their own site. The only way to enourage this (in the UK at least) is to deprive them of visuals. 'AHA!' you say, then why do they allow IR's to even exist? Simple, they need the IR to cater for the 18+ brigade. These guys rarely buy from stores anyway, they 'might' buy from an IR that is capable of holding gaming functions but overall they are no threat and help to keep the adults in the loop. What they cannot do is tell these guys NOT to sell on Ebay, can't do, against the law.

GW knows that the majority of PARENTS (people with cards) will want to buy from an official site, one with nice pics and art. Little Johny couldn't give a rats ass for the 10-15% if Dads pulling out the card and so overall, GW win.

In short, it's KID POWER that drives the GW model. No criticism here, it's solid business sense but sadly once you hit the age of consent their magic stops working, they know it and you are now redundant to them.

My 2 cents.

Good. I like my FLGS better anyway (note the 'F' in FLGS; though I have heard that the 'F' in Games Workshop stands for friendly as well). This may be a little inflammatory, but it is worth saying. I am not calling out anyone in this forum specifically. But these are things we need to take into account. We should look at the direction of our hobby. It is starting to hit mainstream acceptance. In order for it to achieve that, changes need to be made. Believe it or not, these are the right changes. Perhaps, gaming stores should charge dues, so that they can justify the backroom shop space used to play, as well. New customers are what keep the hobby going. And there are a few reasons for this.


1. Regulars tend to leach. They tend to feel a certain level of entitlement because they have been visiting the same store every saturday for 10 years. That's 520 Saturdays; how many times do you think they made a $100 purchase every Saturday?

2. Beardy's scare kids and parents. Let's face it, how many parents really wants there kid to delve into a hobby which takes inspiration from occult sources; terms like demon, summoning, Old Ones, Elder Gods, heresy, sacrifice, dark gods, God Emperor of Mankind do't generally sit well with conservative families. Now throw in the fact that there are a couple bearded 30 something's in the store, who have changed their wardrobe in 20 years, haven't showered for a day or three and scream stranger danger. Hell, I have been playing for 20 years and I wouldn't let my own kids into some of these places.

3. New customers have to spend significant amounts of money to get into the hobby. They often have parents who are upper middle class and out of touch with their children. If they find out that this is an interest of their teenager and they approve, they will likely see it as constructive and creative; it also means the kid may not be doing drugs (in their head at least). All of these mean they will try to foster the hobby, which translates to spend their money on it. Which is good for GW. In order to get me to make a purchase, GW has to create something new and fresh every single time. At this point in the hobby, I have bought and built nearly every kit that I am interested in building. I do not have to make new purchases to play, unless GW rewrites my dex and then, usually all I have to do is a few conversions (I still have Marines from RT that I sometimes field, because I can). Wow, I just spent $20 on a book. New customers will buy an Army like Tau or Dark Eldar because they look cool and because they can use them as a way to identify their individuality(noone ever uses these armies, they look so cool, I can make these work). Then after a few months they find out the army sucks and have there butt kicked in way too mnay games, they start a Marine Army. New customers that come to find a place to fit in, buy Marines (cause everyone else has them). After a few months of successful playing, they become curious and start a new army.

4. New customers keep the game fresh.
a.) They give the seasoned players someone to mentor
b.) They give the beardy's someone to feel superior to
c.) See item 3
d.) They bring new ideas

5. Regulars tend to try to help out new players
a.) They show the new guys where to go to get things cheaper
b.) They discourage purchases of certain items, how many times have you heard
"Dude that unit is not competitive, don't waste your money." and
"Don't buy that box of [Guard Heavy Weapons/Crisis Suit], just for the [Autocannons/Fusion Blasters] to convert your [Lootas/Warboss], I have a few extras right here"

6. Regulars can be rude and chase away new customers, as well.

-No more hobbyist gaming in the store (other than national events etc.)
--Good, I like my living room better and the FLGS sells more than GW products.

-No pick me up games in the store (I.E. Meetups are allowed but Frown upon)
--See above

-No more hobbying in the store
--Why would I? I can call a few buds over, sit around the table, paint, sculpt green stuff, drink a few beers and oh yeah, no entry level people breaking my gak and no beardy's telling me I am not optimizing my force for tourny

-Staff should focus more on brand new clients only
--They need help and will spend more money, which keep GW afloat

-Hobbiyist dont spend money, New clients spend the most amount of money on the hobby so lets focus on new clients
--We do, but we don't give it all do GW

I personally have never set foot in a GW store this is due to one) them not being in Minnesota and two) being less then an hour from 2 FLGS. The only GW store I want to go to is the Battle Bunker near Chicago.

As far as the new plan goes I am seeing one major flaw in it and that is:

Say you get new people in with an army but what is there too keep them in? Say there is a new play gets a good army, but where does he/she play and with whom do they play, how do they get help if they need it?

I got started late in life and had a former GW store manger to help me along, but with out that help I would have sold what I had on Ebay some time ago. With his help I have leaned so much and have gotten so much new stuff (mind you he did also teach me a few things that have saved me money and helped me out with bitz like no tomorrow but still he kept me in the hobby).

What should be done (first said by jw7007) is them keeping the tables and work stations but charging for them this price for this many pts have a cap on the amount of pts that could be played on one table and if you go bigger you need to get another table and charge for the work stations by the hour. The make money and keep the community alive and close where they can spend there money AT GW and NOT AT a FLGS which is more profit for them.

@ Kervin: All very good and respectable points. They are going to lose certain players, if that happens. However, most of the stores I have seen are IR/FLGS not corporate GW stores.

When I got into 40k I was a kid around the age of 13. I had a very friendly manager at the FLGS provide me with a lot of advice. Which meant I bought a lot of product. The regulars at that time, weren't much use to me in all honesty. The store was a minimum 45 minute drive, so it wasn't really feasible to drive to the store for games. We did have an LGS but they didn't carry much GW, they did have tablespace in the back, but 'noobs' weren't invited. So, we had a group of about ten guys that played regularly close by. We had a rotation of moving the games from house to house so we didn't wear out our welcome, although we usually ended up using mine as I had tablespace and openminded parents who didn't mind the crowd. I stayed in the Hobby until I moved away from home and joined the military. After two years though, I had found a group of like minded people and got back into the hobby again. Ofcourse, I missed the last few years of 2nd edition and when I started again 3rd was in full swing. But, I really liked how 3rd played.

So, without a readily available local store, I was still able to get into the hobby and stick with it. I mostly taught myself to paint, I am not the best out there, but I am certainly not the worst. I know a lot of people who have done the same.

I am fortunate that now we have 3-4 FLGS (okay, 2 FLGS and 2 LGS) within ten minutes, but most of the time we get together and set up a table in the living room, garage, basement, etc. The wives/SO/GF's, talk and do their thing and the boyz have their time. It's nice and a lot more relaxing then the FLGS most of the time.

I guess it's all a matter of what the norm was when you started. If you had a store to play at, you played at the store and that was normal. If you didn't, you played at your house and that was normal too. Not being able to play in an FLGS may seem strange, but look at the CCG and RPG market. Most of the games that take place do not happen in store and those industries have done reasonably well, even with their low points.

Not a bad idea charging for playspace or even having marked times/days for open play. I wouldn't have a problem paying to reserve tablespace. It would get rid of some of the leaches and those that just 'hang around.'

@jw7007 - One thing that I haven't seen addressed in your argument is that without a general meeting place to play - such as a games workshop - players do not get an opportunity to play against a variety of opponents. True, I have a few buds who play, but if I couldn't head down to the local GW to play from time to time, I would quickly lose interest and stop playing altogether.

Now - this might not seem like a big deal - after all, I represent only one customer - but if the same behaviour occurs then they WILL lose a lot of business. Now - you may ask "well, how much do you spend on armies anyways?" I'm solidly in the middle class where I live, and I spend a fair bit at GW - in the last year and a half, I have bought and built: Dark Elves, High Elves, Skaven, Warriors of Chaos, Tyranids, Tau. I have purchased 2k points for each of these armies (well, except for Tau). If I have to go to my FLGS rather than GW for my gaming, I will likely depart from the GW product line (they play a lot of warmachine/hordes there).

@niceas: Very true. A store does help you to play against a variety of opponents and learn to deal witht their quirks and different strategies. Which, in turn makes you a better player. A store to play facilitates this greatly. Otherwise you have to have a group that is always bringing in new people, which is honestly kind of a pain. So, yes store play/hobby is beneficial, I will not deny that.

Keep in mind though that this has only been rumoured at GW stores. The IR/LGS will likely not follow that model as keeping players in their stores is their bread and butter. What may work for the IR may not work for the Corporate GW Store. I look at it like this, you can go to Wal-Mart and be assured that you can find the product you need and get out quickly. Or you can go to you local family run business and may not get the product you were looking but chances are you will be greeted as a friend/patron and have some good conversation. When I go to GW, I have one thing in mind, get what I came for and get out. When I go to my FLGS, I am looking for something completely different. The FLGS know this and will continue to do that. IIRC most towns in the states do not have a GW store, their are a lot of players who depend on support from the IR/FLGS.

As long as this is only GW, it probably won't have too much of an impact. GW did not start this model. Most IR/FLGS who pre-date GW have done this for years. So, just because GW stops, it doesn't mean that the other places will.

I do feel you pain though. Even though your FLGS may play a lot of warmachine/hordes (not bad games), your 40k pals will have to go somewhere, which will likely be the FLGS. Seeing that many people playing 40k in store will be too much for most owners/managers to pass and will likely increase their GW support. Which will in turn producemore 40k players. I have noticed that when GW sets up a store in an area, they become the only place to play 40k. However, when there is no GW store nearby, most FLGS are pretty heavy into 40k. It all moves in waves. If the model doesn't work for GW, they won't use it. Just like in 40k, these things happen and it's up to us on how we solve them. Due to the nature of my work, I have had to put my hobby on hold because of lack of players in the area I was at many times. I see players come and go. You will find a way to keep your hobby. You don't just quit 40k

^ and sometimes you think about quitting when you walk into a GW store and it looks like kindergarten...

I have a relative that is a Manager at a Houston games-workshop, and he learned earlier this week about new changes to the US stores.

changes:
- All stores will be run by one employee that is paid hourly. (no manager salaries and major layoffs)
- If a "store operator" is sick, then the store will not open for that day, also store closes for lunch/dinner/ bathroom breaks everyday
- Restrictions on free gaming
- No area manager
-all focus based on new players.
- No store ran events because of only one employee

So, this looks bad for my relative because of the paycut =/.

-ice

So how is one employee meant to do introductory games, push products, AND man a till at the same time? Are they employing squid now?

Ketara wrote:So how is one employee meant to do introductory games, push products, AND man a till at the same time? Are they employing squid now?

They aren't... This is presumably in acceptance of the idea that the stores using this format rarely have multiple customers in them at the same time.

My former FLGS sued to run during the week with one person on, maybe a 2nd on weekends. They didn't do much int he way of demos, and could usually deal with a half dozen customers in the store, especially if they were the trusted regulars. Another LGS sued to usually have 2 in anytime it was busy, but they had a much larger gaming area.

Ugh, if I ever start a nerd company I'm never going to go public. That's the only reason they're slaves to shareholders.

Ostrakon wrote:Ugh, if I ever start a nerd company I'm never going to go public. That's the only reason they're slaves to shareholders.

This, I've watched too many superhero movies to ever take a company public, lol.

So basically GW is just wanting new people to get the quick bang for the buck, and then not support those people once most of the money is spent?

So what is the % of new you kids who get into the hobby stay in the hobby then? Is it like 50% leave or 75% leave? Anyone have these stats? I just can't see this new way of thinking.

People who work in the stores don't make that much money as it is, so for GW to be saving more money by removing these few workers to save a bit of money while giving no support to people who buy the product just dosn't make any sense to me.

Maybe GW dosn't want to the buisness model to works so they can go bankrupt now. I duno nothing ever makes sense what GW does.

Davor wrote:So basically GW is just wanting new people to get the quick bang for the buck, and then not support those people once most of the money is spent?

So what is the % of new you kids who get into the hobby stay in the hobby then? Is it like 50% leave or 75% leave? Anyone have these stats? I just can't see this new way of thinking.

People who work in the stores don't make that much money as it is, so for GW to be saving more money by removing these few workers to save a bit of money while giving no support to people who buy the product just dosn't make any sense to me.

Maybe GW dosn't want to the buisness model to works so they can go bankrupt now. I duno nothing ever makes sense what GW does.

...

Did you even read the actual explanations from people like Mikhaila?

They're(if this rumor is even to be believed, which is doubtful) moving towards getting rid of the 'veterans' who just hog the free gaming space that the cramped and small 'official' GW stores to encourage more introductory playspace, hobby stations, etc. When the new players move to being beyond the level of a 'newbie', they get directed towards a FLGS that stocks GW product nearby or alternatively an official GW Battle Bunker(both of which tend to be a bit bigger than the holes in the walls that GW stores are, and tend towards having 'organized' playdates with you having to reserve or ask ahead when arranging games).

I find it a bit funny since I never seen GW direct me to a FLGS at all. They always want me to come into thier stores and buy only from them and want me to bring my minis to them all the time to play games.

That is why I find it so confusing what people say here. I was at GW just a few days ago and they keep telling me to bring my army in to play some games and I alway decline since I don't have the luxury to do it.

Then that should tell you that this rumor is a load of bunk, shouldn't it?

People take these rumors far, far too seriously sometimes and proclaim the sky is falling based on what some ill-informed redshirt said.

DEATH TO THE RED SHIRT!!

Sorry, I was having a Star Trek flashback.

Kanluwen wrote:Then that should tell you that this rumor is a load of bunk, shouldn't it?

People take these rumors far, far too seriously sometimes and proclaim the sky is falling based on what some ill-informed redshirt said.

They ran the two local stores in MI like the above poster said about texas..


There was only 1 employee.

He shut the store down for his lunch break.

He was absolutely miserable all the time because he ran the whole store himself.

R3con wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Then that should tell you that this rumor is a load of bunk, shouldn't it?

People take these rumors far, far too seriously sometimes and proclaim the sky is falling based on what some ill-informed redshirt said.

They ran the two local stores in MI like the above poster said about texas..


There was only 1 employee.

He shut the store down for his lunch break.

He was absolutely miserable all the time because he ran the whole store himself.

That's a different story than saying that is EXACTLY how every store will be run, now isn't it?

All you've done is provide examples of it being done that way, not that they fired a full staff complement from the stores as part of some company policy to run it as a one man shop.

And are these FLGSes you're referring to, or actual GW stores? Because if they're FLGSes then they're just poorly thought-out, not part of y'know...
Games Workshop's official New Business Model.