On the BGB it says infantry with jump pack could use DS rule, I'm wondering whether this will work with MC ,ie. a winged Hive tyrant ? Thx in advance

ED209 wrote:On the BGB it says infantry with jump pack could use DS rule, I'm wondering whether this will work with MC ,ie. a winged Hive tyrant ? Thx in advance

No.

Wings allow the Model to MOVE AS Jump Infantry.

They do not become Jump Infantry.

Thus, they cannot Deep Strike, as it is a rule inherent to the model actually being the type "Jump Infantry", which a Hive Tyrant with Wings is not.

A MC with wings can, I thought. I know that's not a jump pack, though.

Isn't deepstriking considered movement?

Asmodeus wrote:A MC with wings can, I thought. I know that's not a jump pack, though.

Nope. Wings allow the model to move as Jump Infantry. They do not become Jump Infantry, so cannot deep strike as jump infantry can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CptZach wrote:Isn't deepstriking considered movement?

No. Models who deep strike count as moving for the purposes of shooting, but it is not actually movement.

Jump pack movement is given with wings. Jump pack movement states that jump infantry may deepstrike. Since the tyrant isn't jump infantry it may not deepstrike

Correct me if I'm wrong Gwar!, but didn't you argue that a Librarian couldn't Gate of infinity out of close combat because the deepstriking made it moving out of close combat?

CptZach wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong Gwar!, but didn't you argue that a Librarian couldn't Gate of infinity out of close combat because the deepstriking made it moving out of close combat?

Yes, you are wrong.

You cannot GoI out of Close Combat because it doesn't say you can.

Thx guys, it is pretty clear now

Erm, I thought the new Nid codex made models with Wings ACTUAL Jump Infantry? For example Gargoyles have Wings and have Unit Type: Jump Infantry

nosferatu1001 wrote:Erm, I thought the new Nid codex made models with Wings ACTUAL Jump Infantry? For example Gargoyles have Wings and have Unit Type: Jump Infantry

"Move in the same way as Jump Infantry"
However, gargoyles (and others that do not have wings optional) are listed as JI as well.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Erm, I thought the new Nid codex made models with Wings ACTUAL Jump Infantry? For example Gargoyles have Wings and have Unit Type: Jump Infantry

Some units have Wings and are also Jump Infantry.

Models that are not Jump Infantry sometimes have an option to purchase the Biomorph called "Wings".

The rules for Wings state: Models equipped with wings move In the same way as Jump Infantry, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

Thus, models who are not Jump Infantry and also have Wings, move as jump infantry but do not become jump infantry.

This way, models for whom wings are not optional DO get to deep strike, while those models for whom wings are an upgrade cannot deep strike.

A daemon prince with Wings can DS. The only MC i know of that can though.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Erm, I thought the new Nid codex made models with Wings ACTUAL Jump Infantry? For example Gargoyles have Wings and have Unit Type: Jump Infantry

Page 84 wrote: Wings: fluff

Models equiped with wings move in the same way as jump infanty, as described in the Wahammer 40,000 rulebook.

Most models that get wings are jump infantry but not all. Harpy is just a MC in the same way the tyrant is.

Kurgash wrote:A daemon prince with Wings can DS. The only MC i know of that can though.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking of. I don't know Tyranids very well.

Kurgash wrote:A daemon prince with Wings can DS. The only MC i know of that can though.

A daemon prince with wings can deep strike because the CSM codex says that they can deep strike as the last sentence in the wargear entry for wings. I'm a bit surprised that the Tyranid codex doesn't include similar wording.

Disclaimer: And I'll be really sad if the Tyranid codex does include similar wording and people are still arguing about it.

solkan wrote:Disclaimer: And I'll be really sad if the Tyranid codex does include similar wording and people are still arguing about it.

Lol. There's been bigger arguments over less.

solkan wrote:

Kurgash wrote:A daemon prince with Wings can DS. The only MC i know of that can though.

A daemon prince with wings can deep strike because the CSM codex says that they can deep strike as the last sentence in the wargear entry for wings. I'm a bit surprised that the Tyranid codex doesn't include similar wording.

Disclaimer: And I'll be really sad if the Tyranid codex does include similar wording and people are still arguing about it.

All it says is move as jump infantry no more no less.

The sad thing is that I picked up a copy of the Tyranid codex today just so that I could stop relying on second hand accounts of the wording. Why, oh why, does GW continue to put redundant wargear entries onto models, and give us jump infantry which have a rule allowing them to move as jump infantry?!?

So, no deep striking winged Hive Tyrant or Harpy until/unless FAQ'd.

solkan wrote:The sad thing is that I picked up a copy of the Tyranid codex today just so that I could stop relying on second hand accounts of the wording. Why, oh why, does GW continue to put redundant wargear entries onto models, and give us jump infantry which have a rule allowing them to move as jump infantry?!?

I'll take redundant wargear that is meaningless given the unit type over failing to give a unit wargear or a unit type (see: Reaver Jetbikes).

And when they leave the wargear off sometimes it creates more problems than listing it would (see: Thunderwolf Cavalry). The best way to do it IMO is to not list any of the wargear attributes on the unit and then just give them the wargear, I'm sure we will work it out, but for some reason GW think that would be too confusing.

I understand that there is a difference between moving as jump infantry and being jump infantry, but if an upgrade such as wings claim that the model may move as jump infantry, shouldn't the "movement" section under "jump infantry" in the rulebook be considered? It is contained within the movement section that it says "jump infantry" may move 12 inches and deep strike. Now im jtrying to decide whether deep striking is considered movement............

Deep Striking is Deployment, much different from movement.

InquisitorFabius wrote:Deep Striking is Deployment, much different from movement.

Veil of Darkness says otherwise.

Necrons: breaking the rules everyone tries so hard to enforce since 2002

And guess what, its a special kind of Deepstrike.

Well I do not play nids, nor am I looking to get into a big argument, but the "moves as if it were jump infantry" to me means you can use the entire paragraph found in the "jump Infantry movement" section of the rules. It states jump infantry may enter the game via deepstrike. Now I know the argument is "it says jump infantry not things that move as jump infantry." But the entry is in the movement section of jump infantry. If the unit is put in reserves, is it not entering the board in the movement phase. I do not believe their is a "deployment" phase once the battle has begun. You can bash my comment all you want, but I would say a winged creature that "moves as if it were jump infantry" could deepstrike.

If I am wrong can anyone point out the FAQ or rulebook quotation that states moving as jump infantry does not include the deepstrike sentence of the movement paragraph in the BGB, or state an example of a unit not allowed to deepstrike that "moves as if jump infantry"?? Are their any units in the game that move like jump infantry i.e. they have wings, but can not deepstrike?? (other than the current ones we are arguing about.

I like Norbu's point of view on this.

Codex says all tyranids with wings move same way as jump infantry as described in the rule book.
Rule book under jump infantry movement says they can deep strike so yes tyrant with wing can deep strike.
I have used it in several tournys and had a few people question it even in ard boyz and no tourny organizer has ever disallowed me deep striking a tyrant and everyone that has questioned it changed their stance after reading the codex and the rule book. The new codex is the exact same on wings as the last codex so no change there.
The rules in the rule book and codex are very clear I don't see how this is confusing so many people. Even the deep strike part is under jump infantry movement.

+1 Its like the Spiking Steam Tanks debate ages ago.

No cookie for Gwar.

-Sigh-

Models MOVE as if Jump Infantry.

They do NOT Follow all the rules found in the Movement section of Jump Infantry.

They only MOVE AS IF JUMP INFANTRY. As in, when you move them, they move as if Jump Infantry, but are NOT Jump Infantry and CANNOT deep strike as Jump Infantry.

DEEP STRIKING IS NOT MOVEMENT.

Get it now?

So what your saying is a rule that saying jump infantry may deep strike is applicable to infantry model? I think not

No, what he's saying is that despite the fact being able to Deep Strike is listed under the Movement section of Jump Infantry, it has nothing to do with how they Move.

Gwar! wrote:-Sigh-

Models MOVE as if Jump Infantry.

They do NOT Follow all the rules found in the Movement section of Jump Infantry.

They only MOVE AS IF JUMP INFANTRY. As in, when you move them, they move as if Jump Infantry, but are NOT Jump Infantry and CANNOT deep strike as Jump Infantry.

DEEP STRIKING IS NOT MOVEMENT.

Get it now?

I completely get what you are saying, but based on the statements by several people before I can't fully agree with you any longer. There is definitely a significant gray area here with the deep strike being included in the 'movement rules' for Jump Infantry.

Models move as if Jump Infantry.

How do JI move?

Read JI Movement paragraph, which includes DS. Its ambiguous at best. Hurray GW!

FoolWhip wrote:I completely get what you are saying, but based on the statements by several people before I can't fully agree with you any longer. There is definitely a significant gray area here with the deep strike being included in the 'movement rules' for Jump Infantry.

Models move as if Jump Infantry.

How do JI move?

Read JI Movement paragraph, which includes DS. Its ambiguous at best. Hurray GW!

So, you are saying, that an Infantry or MC Model is allowed to Deep Strike despite it being a rule applicable only to Jump Infantry?

Jump Infanty Move 12", Assault 6". That is how Jump Infantry Move. Moving as if Jump infantry allows you to move the same way as though you were jump infantry. it does NOT allow you any other benefits of jump infantry, it only allows you to MOVE as if Jump Infantry. Norbu and the others are 100% Wrong from a RaW standpoint.

Gwar! wrote:

FoolWhip wrote:I completely get what you are saying, but based on the statements by several people before I can't fully agree with you any longer. There is definitely a significant gray area here with the deep strike being included in the 'movement rules' for Jump Infantry.

Models move as if Jump Infantry.

How do JI move?

Read JI Movement paragraph, which includes DS. Its ambiguous at best. Hurray GW!

So, you are saying, that an Infantry or MC Model is allowed to Deep Strike despite it being a rule applicable only to Jump Infantry?

Jump Infanty Move 12", Assault 6". That is how Jump Infantry Move. Moving as if Jump infantry allows you to move the same way as though you were jump infantry. it does NOT allow you any other benefits of jump infantry, it only allows you to MOVE as if Jump Infantry. Norbu and the others are 100% Wrong from a RaW standpoint.

I am saying it is equally interpretable RAW. It should be FAQ'd.

The only reason I can think they might have done it is to ensure abilities like JoWW would still affect them. (It's been a bit since I read on JoWW, but I believe it doesn't have affect on JI.) Or maybe they are terrible with specifics...

If a tyrant was both MC and Jump infantry ... then JOWW could target him as he is still a MC and that's all that's need.


edit ... You could say that it was changed because games workshop didn't want Tyrants to be able deep strike. When the last codex was written deep-striking was a rare ability one which many model had to pay to get. New core rule book and all jump infantry can now deep-strike even if they haven't purchased the upgrade. That's not how its meant to work so GW changes it back as it re-releases the codices

It is under movement for jump infantry so a Tyrant with wings can DS. Anyone telling you that you can't is wrong. I can not even think of a reason why anyone would want to stop you from doing it. Nobody in this thread has offered any valid reason to say no you can not DS a Tyrant with wings. It is VERY clearly stated under MOVEMENT for jump infantry, and a Tyrant with wings is allowed everything listed under movement for jump infantry. And if you argue it is not movement, then why is it under movement? RAW even supports that they can DS since as per RAW you find that jump infantry deep strike is under movement.

Anyways I think I will delete this site now. Over all it has been useless in my search for helpful information, just a place for egomaniacs to correct your spelling and argue for the sake of arguing. I will just keep to the GW faqs and rule books, and trust in organizers that have done a great job in all my battles.

TheJuan wrote:The new codex is the exact same on wings as the last codex so no change there.

In case anyone is curious, this part is patently wrong. The old codex states "Winged creatures are treated as Jump Infantry in all respects".

To "The Juan" you may never read this, but this site can be extremely helpful for finding information on grey areas in the rules. Experienced players from all over the globe throw in their opinion and though it may vary from mine, I like looking at the differant points of view, no matter how "loud" they appear to be

To GWAR, I guess I just disagree with you on this one. Almost everytime I agree with you on this site and I like that you usually quote the rules to back up your opinion, but on this issue I have to side with they can deepstrike. I understand your side of the argument, that they "move" as jump infantry as in the distances they cover, but I think the deepstrike side of the rule is in the movement paragraph because deepstriking is done during the movement phase. What phase does deepstriking occur once the game has begun? If it is indeed the movement phase that can you not at least conceed people could interprate this as movement by jump infantry.

If indeed you would allow omition of the deep strike side of movement, then couldnt someone then argue that they wouldnt need to make a dangerous terrain roll if landing in difficult ground. If your argument is infantry and MC's do not deepstrike, then you could argue those same units do not take dangerous terrain tests in difficult ground. They only "move" as jump inf. not take dangerous tests as jump inf. I think you get the good and the bad, everything, out of the movement paragraph.

the only MC with Wings that can DS is Our Daemonic Monsters. I.e Bloodthirster, Lord of Change, Daemon Prince with wings.
Other than that it should state in their entry.

I think it can be argued either way (obviously?), but I think despite moving as jump infantry, it cannot be deployed as jump infantry nor be held in reserves as jump infantry (including arriving from reserves as jump infantry). This would preclude it from deepstriking as jump infantry.

/shrug

kirsanth wrote:

TheJuan wrote:The new codex is the exact same on wings as the last codex so no change there.

In case anyone is curious, this part is patently wrong. The old codex states "Winged creatures are treated as Jump Infantry in all respects".

Which is why people should:
a) Read the Codex before posting
b) Listen to the people who actually have the codex

Yup, I think Norbu the Destroyer has it right.

Nurglitch wrote:Yup, I think Norbu the Destroyer has it right.

If I may ask, why?

How does allowing something to Move as Jump Infantry, without it becoming Jump infantry, allow it to Deep Strike?

Because the rules that allow it to Deep Strike are under the Movement rules for Jump Infantry.

Aduro wrote:Because the rules that allow it to Deep Strike are under the Movement rules for Jump Infantry.

And the rules for Run are in the Shooting section, but Running is still movement.

Deep Striking is NOT movement, and being able to Move as Jump Infantry does NOT allow you to Deep Strike.

+1 to Gwar's argument. "Moves as" jump infantry is different from "moves and deploys as" or "counts as" or even "is the same in all respects as" jump infantry.

Note that the Deep Strike rules state that units having arrived via Deep Strike "counts as having moved." Deep Striking is not a movement...

I could believe that this was an unintentional omission, though I like the theory above about moving to make Deep Strike less prevalent, but it's not like this would be the first time in 40k that actual wording did not implement intended behavior...

IMO, RAW sides with a hive tyrant with wings being allowed to deep strike.

With RAW you can't pick and choose what rules entries you want to follow. In this case, deep strike does fall under the movement description for jump infantry so anyone that were to follow the rules per RAW would read the entry and see that deep striking is included.

You can rant up and down that Deep Strike is not movement per the Deep Strike rules on page 95, but it is labeled as movement on page 52 of the Jump Infantry movement rules.

Brother Ramses wrote:IMO, RAW sides with a hive tyrant with wings being allowed to deep strike.

Well, your opinion is wrong.

With RAW you can't pick and choose what rules entries you want to follow.

Except where the RaW says to, like in this case.

In this case, deep strike does fall under the movement description for jump infantry so anyone that were to follow the rules per RAW would read the entry and see that deep striking is included.

-Sigh-

Page 85 of the Chaos Codex says that models that have wings can arrive using Deep Strike rules.

Yes, I understand that it might not apply to Hive Tyrants as Codex trumps BRB, but I still think it's relevant to the conversation. I haven't read the new Nid Codex yet.

Monster Rain wrote:Page 85 of the Chaos Codex says that models that have wings can arrive using Deep Strike rules.

Splendid!

We are, however, talking about the Tyranid Codex.

Gwar! wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Page 85 of the Chaos Codex says that models that have wings can arrive using Deep Strike rules.

Splendid!

We are, however, talking about the Tyranid Codex.

Very well then! I don't want Hive Tyrants starting out any closer than they have to anyway.

Brother Ramses wrote:In this case, deep strike does fall under the movement description for jump infantry so anyone that were to follow the rules per RAW would read the entry and see that deep striking is included.

You can rant up and down that Deep Strike is not movement per the Deep Strike rules on page 95, but it is labeled as movement on page 52 of the Jump Infantry movement rules.

That's ascribing prescriptive meaning to the paragraph heading, when they're clearly used throughout the book in a simply descriptive fashion to make it readable and nicely formatted. Again, I could definitely believe the intent was for winged models to be able to Deep Strike, but that's not well supported by the chosen words or that the Chaos codex makes that explicit, etc.

I have to go with Gwar! on this one. I see no reason that deep strike would be considered movement if the CSM codex found it necessary to list Deep Striking as a different rule than moving as jump infantry in their wings entry if they were the same.

Then again, you never know with GW...

Gwar is absolutely correct in this matter. Those that disagree are required to attend remedial English class. Alternatively, You may meet this requirement by looking up the definition of a simile.

Chaos303 wrote:I have to go with Gwar! on this one. I see no reason that deep strike would be considered movement if the CSM codex found it necessary to list Deep Striking as a different rule than moving as jump infantry in their wings entry if they were the same.

Then again, you never know with GW...

The CSM codex was written before 5th edition, which gave all jump infantry deep strike.

Splendid!

We are, however, talking about the Tyranid Codex.

There is something in the real world called precedent...so given it is a grey zone, follow the precedent which would allow for them to deep strike

GW makes no precedent, changing things on a whim per codex. What is true for one codex is not true for another.

The real question is would you have the brass balls to actually DS a Tyrant....

If it can drop in and kill its points value, and tie up enough shooting to get itself killed, then it did its job.

I wouldn't care if my opponent wants to DS a Flyrant. I don't see a reason for it not to happen except for the BRB specifically saying jump infantry units deepstrike and not units that move like jump infantry...which I think is only models with wings...

At a tournament, then this is going to be one of the first questions I ask the TO.

Now I'm going to go put wings on my Chaos Lord to come flying out of a Rhino just for fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kurgash wrote:The real question is would you have the brass balls to actually DS a Tyrant....

I played a Nids player who DS a Tyrant and a Trygon while outflanking with 3 units of Genestealers and a Tervigon. That list could really box in a lot of lists...but not my mobile Necrons

GW makes no precedent, changing things on a whim per codex. What is true for one codex is not true for another.

QFT. I guess my point more specifically is that there is no explicit change. So defaulting to the previous standard is logical

Again, the previous standard is now irrelevant. New codex means the old one never existed.

Volkov wrote:

GW makes no precedent, changing things on a whim per codex. What is true for one codex is not true for another.

QFT. I guess my point more specifically is that there is no explicit change. So defaulting to the previous standard is logical

Apart from the explicit change from "are Jump Infantry in all respects" to "move as Jump Infantry"?

That is a major difference.

Much as it pains me, I'm going to have to agree with Gwar.
Anyway, we know Deep strike isn't movement.
If it was, Skyleaping "Rubber Hawks" wouldn't work.
And we know it does.

I think that we are getting lost in knitpicking because of sloppy writing. The wording is ambiguous at best, since the ability to deep strike is clearly in the section about movement, and also in the same sentence it says that *all* JI units can deep strike, alluding to a wide application of the rule.

The wording is sloppy for sure, but if we are using the same standard then it would seem the Tyrant Guard do not protect the Hive Tyrant from shooting either, even though it clearly says in the rules that they are "living shields whose purpose is to protect the Hive Tyrants from harm". Because it says that the Hive Tyrant joins the Tyrant Guard as if it were an independent character. But according to the rulebook, "Independent Characters that are Monstrous Creatures can always be picked out as separate targets, unless they've joined a unit of monstrous creatures...". Or you can argue that you cannot use both scything talons and boneswords because they are both listed under "Close Combat Weapons" and are therefore special close combat weapons (since claws and teeth are the only weapons that have the "normal" designation the others must have the "special" designation), and therefore you have to choose which one to use.

As far as I see it all these issues are clearly intended one way. And the rules as written are all ambiguous at best (the clearest one seems to be the Tyrant Guard actually).

Before the FAQ's are out, we have to work out an agreement between players, and for me when a situation is clearly intended one way, and worded badly or ambiguously it is obvious what you should do. I cannot imagine this being an issue in a friendly game, and in a tournament, I would rely on the common sense of the judges and sportsmanship of my opponent (any opponent arguing the ambiguous angle of clearly intended rules will definitely get a zero sportsmanship from me).

saryrn wrote:Games work shop has produce another codex full of mistakes and sloppy rules

Couldn't agree more ... the problem is that, as a game, both players have agreed to abide by the rules no matter how stupid ... if both players wish to change how a rule works that is fine and covered as a house rule.

In this case RAW is clear only units of the type jump infantry may deep-strike

saryrn wrote:I think that we are getting lost in knitpicking because of sloppy writing. The wording is ambiguous at best, since the ability to deep strike is clearly in the section about movement, and also in the same sentence it says that *all* JI units can deep strike, alluding to a wide application of the rule.

The wording is sloppy for sure, but if we are using the same standard then it would seem the Tyrant Guard do not protect the Hive Tyrant from shooting either, even though it clearly says in the rules that they are "living shields whose purpose is to protect the Hive Tyrants from harm". Because it says that the Hive Tyrant joins the Tyrant Guard as if it were an independent character. But according to the rulebook, "Independent Characters that are Monstrous Creatures can always be picked out as separate targets, unless they've joined a unit of monstrous creatures...". Or you can argue that you cannot use both scything talons and boneswords because they are both listed under "Close Combat Weapons" and are therefore special close combat weapons (since claws and teeth are the only weapons that have the "normal" designation the others must have the "special" designation), and therefore you have to choose which one to use.

As far as I see it all these issues are clearly intended one way. And the rules as written are all ambiguous at best (the clearest one seems to be the Tyrant Guard actually).

Before the FAQ's are out, we have to work out an agreement between players, and for me when a situation is clearly intended one way, and worded badly or ambiguously it is obvious what you should do. I cannot imagine this being an issue in a friendly game, and in a tournament, I would rely on the common sense of the judges and sportsmanship of my opponent (any opponent arguing the ambiguous angle of clearly intended rules will definitely get a zero sportsmanship from me).

spot on! The rule can be read either way in this circumstance and many others. Just because some of the posters feel they are always right and smarter than every living thing on the planet doesn't mean jack, because no one cares what they think. The point is this rule and many others are very ambiguous. And rulings can differ from local scene to the next. Just make sure you got it down with your gaming group, and find out before hand if you travel, and most importantly don't blow a gasket and think the other person is cheating if they don't magically see it the same way you do.

saryrn wrote:I think that we are getting lost in knitpicking because of sloppy writing. The wording is ambiguous at best, since the ability to deep strike is clearly in the section about movement, and also in the same sentence it says that *all* JI units can deep strike, alluding to a wide application of the rule.

The wording is sloppy for sure, but if we are using the same standard then it would seem the Tyrant Guard do not protect the Hive Tyrant from shooting either, even though it clearly says in the rules that they are "living shields whose purpose is to protect the Hive Tyrants from harm". Because it says that the Hive Tyrant joins the Tyrant Guard as if it were an independent character. But according to the rulebook, "Independent Characters that are Monstrous Creatures can always be picked out as separate targets, unless they've joined a unit of monstrous creatures...". Or you can argue that you cannot use both scything talons and boneswords because they are both listed under "Close Combat Weapons" and are therefore special close combat weapons (since claws and teeth are the only weapons that have the "normal" designation the others must have the "special" designation), and therefore you have to choose which one to use.

As far as I see it all these issues are clearly intended one way. And the rules as written are all ambiguous at best (the clearest one seems to be the Tyrant Guard actually).

Before the FAQ's are out, we have to work out an agreement between players, and for me when a situation is clearly intended one way, and worded badly or ambiguously it is obvious what you should do. I cannot imagine this being an issue in a friendly game, and in a tournament, I would rely on the common sense of the judges and sportsmanship of my opponent (any opponent arguing the ambiguous angle of clearly intended rules will definitely get a zero sportsmanship from me).

You can't have it both ways. If winged MCs can deep strike, Tyrants can also be picked out of their Tyrant Guard.

By the way, I know a TO who would throw you out of a tournament for giving someone a zero in sportsmanship.

By the way, I know a TO who would throw you out of a tournament for giving someone a zero in sportsmanship.

Then you know a TO who has no business organizing tournaments. Though perhaps not in this particular case, there are certainly times when a zero is warranted.

Having finally been able to get the tyranid codex I thought it might be interesting to work through exactly how this is worded.


"Models equipped with wings move in the same way as jump infantry,"

Seems fairly straightforward; in whatever manner jump infantry can move winged models can also move.

The entry on jump infantry tells us the movement speed and characteristics, and it also refers us to pg 95 when it mentions deep striking since we are told that jump infantry may enter the battle this way. Yes, this is listed under the movement section of jump infantry but it by no means lets us define deep strike as movement from this section.



Now on to pg 95....for a winged model to be able top deep strike we need to be told that deep striking is somehow a move. Move in the same way as jump infantry; not count as having moved but actually move.

"in the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further...."

Hmm, serious problem here; it appears that the units have indeed moved.

"they are too disrupted by their deep strike move."

Uhoh, its even called a move.


So by simple RAW we have it, deep strike is indeed at least in some manner a move. And this is all that the tyranid rule requires, if jump infantry have a an ability that in some way is a move then winged models also have that ability.



Deep strike is many things but its clear that one of these things is a move. Its really not at all ambiguous, its just another case of GW not using clear simple writing.


Sliggoth

In neither case can a Tyrant be picked out, as they join *as* an IC, at no point are tehy actually an IC - so the rule about ICs joining a unit never applies, and they are therefore just a normal member of the unit. Who cannot be picked out.

I agree with Sliggoth!

Thank you for being so much more articulate than I am...

Going to say I would play it as yes, they can deep strike.

Gwar! wrote:-Sigh-

Models MOVE as if Jump Infantry.

They do NOT Follow all the rules found in the Movement section of Jump Infantry.

They only MOVE AS IF JUMP INFANTRY. As in, when you move them, they move as if Jump Infantry, but are NOT Jump Infantry and CANNOT deep strike as Jump Infantry.

DEEP STRIKING IS NOT MOVEMENT.

Get it now?

models MOVE as if Jump Infatnry.

How do jump infantry MOVE? well, they follow the rules under MOVEMENT in the jump infantry unit type on page 52.

Do the rules under MOVEMENT on the page labelled JUMP INFANTRY include a mention of DEEP STRIKE?

yes. IF IT'S LISTED UNDER MOVEMENT, MODELS THAT MOVE AS JUMP INFANTRY CAN DO IT. so, they can deepstrike.

get it now?

The biggest problem with not counting deep strike as a part of a models movement allowance is that it allows ICs without Deep Strike to DS if they are attached to a unit that can.

Deep Strike is not a USR that is lost if an IC without it joins. If you do not say deep striking is movement, then nothing in the Deep Strike or IC rules prevent the unit from Deep Striking with a footslogging IC.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:The biggest problem with not counting deep strike as a part of a models movement allowance is that it allows ICs without Deep Strike to DS if they are attached to a unit that can.

Deep Strike is not a USR that is lost if an IC without it joins. If you do not say deep striking is movement, then nothing in the Deep Strike or IC rules prevent the unit from Deep Striking with a footslogging IC.

No, what prevents a footslogging IC from joining a deep strike unit is that the IC isn't equipped with something that allows them to enter play in that manner.

You're stretching things a bit.

The deep strike rules only require a unit with the deep strike rule. As deep strike isn't lost when a non-deep striker joins, they can still enter via DS.

That is, unless Deep Strike is a part of movement, and the IC rules keep the unit from deep striking.

Except the unit does not have deepstrike - *part* of the unit has deepstrike.

So you still can't do it.

The 'unit' has an ability.
If they are joined by another model, and that model joining does not cause the unit to lose that ability, then after that model has joined them the 'unit' still has that ability.

Which is why Wings do not allow Deep Strike, otherwise a winged Hive Tyrant can Deep Strike with Tyrant Guard

insaniak wrote:The 'unit' has an ability.
If they are joined by another model, and that model joining does not cause the unit to lose that ability, then after that model has joined them the 'unit' still has that ability.

No it doesnt, as not all of the unit has the ability. It does not have to lose it for the unit to be unable to use it as a whole, as you ask the question "does the unit have DS?" and you *cannot* answer "yes" to that

You evil tyranid players really need to read the rules and understand the language.

Page 52 under Jump Infantry -
The last line under movement is "All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95." This does not mean that units that move like jump infantry get the 'deep strike' ability. It means that JUMP INFANTRY get it... if the unit is not and I repeat not listed as JUMP INFANTRY, they don't get to look at page 95.

I can crawl like a cat as much as I want, but I will never be a cat.

Until clarified the only fair way to call this is that Monstrous Creatures with wings can Deep Strike.

Gwar! and those who believe him are confusing 'move' with 'movement phase'. Last time I checked something that is deep striking is moving, as in its applying motion, we can only go by the wording and the wording implies any change in location is taken as per Jump infantry.

Had the rules said 'counts as jump infantry in the movement phase' then no Deep Strike, but it says moves as which is something completely different.

Ok, so the way you see it is the only fair way? Because as I see it a model with wings, gets the movement options for JI, not the deployment options.

Marcus Iago Geruasius wrote:You evil tyranid players really need to read the rules and understand the language.

Page 52 under Jump Infantry -
The last line under movement is "All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95." This does not mean that units that move like jump infantry get the 'deep strike' ability. It means that JUMP INFANTRY get it... if the unit is not and I repeat not listed as JUMP INFANTRY, they don't get to look at page 95.

I can crawl like a cat as much as I want, but I will never be a cat.

Well said - I agree with the gentleman above...

Slinky wrote:

Marcus Iago Geruasius wrote:You evil tyranid players really need to read the rules and understand the language.

Page 52 under Jump Infantry -
The last line under movement is "All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95." This does not mean that units that move like jump infantry get the 'deep strike' ability. It means that JUMP INFANTRY get it... if the unit is not and I repeat not listed as JUMP INFANTRY, they don't get to look at page 95.

I can crawl like a cat as much as I want, but I will never be a cat.

Well said - I agree with the gentleman above...

when i first read the movement section for jump infantry i thought that this was the perfect anti DS point as well however after rereading the jump troop movement section again they say "jump infantry" throughout the entire section. you cant exclude the DS part of the section and simply keep the rest in.

BTW, im neutral here...

Orlanth wrote:Until clarified the only fair way to call this is that Monstrous Creatures with wings can Deep Strike.

Gwar! and those who believe him are confusing 'move' with 'movement phase'. Last time I checked something that is deep striking is moving, as in its applying motion, we can only go by the wording and the wording implies any change in location is taken as per Jump infantry.

Had the rules said 'counts as jump infantry in the movement phase' then no Deep Strike, but it says moves as which is something completely different.

You did just read Marcus Iago Geruasius's post that pretty much shows your post is 100% twaddle yes?

If you are going to claim that "Move as" jump infantry means "Follow all the Rules in the movement section for jump infantry", then you claim that they CANNOT Deep Strike, as the rules for Jump Infantry Deep Striking say "All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95."

So, taking the "It follows all the rules for Movement under Jump Infantrys Unit Rules", a Hive Tyrant with Wings is NOT Jump Infantry, it only moves as Jump Infantry. Moving as Jump Infantry gives it the rule "All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95." Now, check, is the Hive Tyrant Jump Infantry? No, it isn't. Thus, even though it has this rule, because it can move like Jump Infantry, it cannot deep strike, because the rule EXPLICITLY states that you have to actually be Jump Infantry to benefit from the Deep Strike portion of the rules.

Damn, it's almost as if GW read the rulebook before writing a codex (almost, we all know that is unpossible).

Since alot of people seem to think that they can deepstrike while not being jump infantry, i have a new question ...

Do you keep 'move throught cover' since all MC have it or do you lose it becuase you no longer move like a MC and its part of the MC movement rules?

Tri wrote:Since alot of people seem to think that they can deepstrike while not being jump infantry, i have a new question ...

Do you keep 'move throught cover' since all MC have it or do you lose it becuase you no longer move like a MC and its part of the MC movement rules?

I would guess that they would turn about and argue that they do keep it, even though their argument 3 seconds ago (because five is right out!) would mean that the MC does lose it.

But hey, that's just my opinion.

no. no ds for you. I fully agree with GWAR! it is just moves as, not counts as.

There is a problem tho...its not counts as, its moves as. So any manner in which jump infantry move, models with wings also can move.


Is deep strike in any shape or form a move?


Yes it is, according to the deep strike rules.


So if jump infantry move via deep strike then so can winged models.






Nothing much else to it, there is no counts as, should be treated as, or any other such as...they just move in the same way as jump infantry. They in no way have to BE jump infantry.



Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:There is a problem tho...its not counts as, its moves as. So any manner in which jump infantry move, models with wings also can move.

Is deep strike in any shape or form a move?

Yes it is, according to the deep strike rules.

So if jump infantry move via deep strike then so can winged models.

Nothing much else to it, there is no counts as, should be treated as, or any other such as...they just move in the same way as jump infantry. They in no way have to BE jump infantry.

Your argument fails on three counts.

1) Deep Striking is NOT movement. The models count as moving after a deep strike, but that is the extent of it, they COUNT AS moving, which, by definition, means they didn't actually move.
2) Again, if a Tyrant with wings must Follow all the movement rules for Jump Infantry, it must follow the rule that says "All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95." Note how the rule does NOT say "All units that move as jump infantry may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95.", but rather explicitly "All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95." A Tyrant with Wings is not Jump Infantry, so it cannot Deep Strike.
3) By your logic, a Hive Tyrant with Wings loses MTC

Gwar! wrote: ...even though their argument 3 seconds ago (because five is right out!) ...

Gwar: A five minute argument, the full half hour. He could even be arguing in his spare time.

Read my earlier post...the deep strike rule does indeed say that its a move.

Winged models do NOT follow the rules for jump infantry. They however DO move as jump infantry moves.



Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Winged models do NOT follow the rules for jump infantry. They however DO move as jump infantry moves.

Yes, you are absolutely right.

Now, lets actually read what the rules for Jump Infantry moving say.

"All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95."

Notice the distinct lack of "Move as" in that sentence? Perhaps, just perhaps, this is because only actual Jump Infantry may deep strike?

So, by following ALL the rules for Movement, a model that "moves as" Jump Infanty has a rule which states "All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95". Now, check, is the Tyrant Jump Infantry. Hmm? No? Aww, looks like he can't Deep Strike then! Thus you claim that they cannot Deep Strike. Glad to see we are in agreement here.

Yes, but what you are failing to see is that winged models move in the same way as jump infantry.

Looking at the jump infantry rules we see that they can do this thing called deep strike.


Is deep strike a way in which jump infantry move? We need to go look at pg 95 to see if deep strike in some way might fit the rules as a move.

Well lets see:


"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further.."

This is certainly telling us that they have moved somehow in the turn, and the only thing that they have done is deepstrike. Therefore it certainly looks like deep strike is being called some form of a move.

Then later on pg 95 we get:

"....they are too disrupted by their deep strike move."

That line is open and shut, deep strike is a move. Jump infantry do indeed move when they deepstrike. And, winged models move in the same way as jump infantry.


All thats needed is for deep strike to be in some way (any way at all) a move. Once we have that, and we already know that jump infantry can deep strike....we know that winged models can deep strike as well.


Sliggoth

DS is clearly a form of deployment, it even states so under the Reserves section. This is repeated under the DS section also.

Deep strike being a form of deployment is interesting, but completely irrelevant. We dont care if its a form of deployment or not, the only concern we have when looking at the rule in question is whether or not deep strike is in any way a move. There is no limitation on deep strike ONLY being deployment or ONLY being a move. It could quite possibly be both.

Dont try and read too many limitations into this rule, as some people in this thread have done.



"Models equipped with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry..."


The winged models arent jump infantry, they dont move as if they were jump infantry, they dont pretend in any way to be jump infantry. They simply move in the same way as jump infantry.


So any way in which Jump Infantry move, winged models also can move. Any way at all, as long as its a move. Jump Infantry can deep strike. So the only thing we are interested in about deep strike is if it is in some way (any way at all) a move.


And the deep strike rules tell us that it is indeed a move.


Its nice to know that deep strike may also be a form of deployment, but the winged model rules dont really care about that at all.


Sliggoth

Gwar! wrote:

Sliggoth wrote:Winged models do NOT follow the rules for jump infantry. They however DO move as jump infantry moves.

Yes, you are absolutely right.

Now, lets actually read what the rules for Jump Infantry moving say.

"All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95."

Notice the distinct lack of "Move as" in that sentence? Perhaps, just perhaps, this is because only actual Jump Infantry may deep strike?

So, by following ALL the rules for Movement, a model that "moves as" Jump Infanty has a rule which states "All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95". Now, check, is the Tyrant Jump Infantry. Hmm? No? Aww, looks like he can't Deep Strike then! Thus you claim that they cannot Deep Strike. Glad to see we are in agreement here.

Alright, Just so I am clear,

Hive tyrants with wings "Move as Jump Infantry"
You Stated "Lets read the rules for Jump Infantry Moving"
Now the Tyrant in terms of Movement Is Jump Infantry, Because he is considered Jump Infantry for movement purposes, as is clearly stated in the book,

So anything listed in the rules under movement that pertains to jump infantry counts for them for they are jump infantry for movement purposes

Not targetting purposes, H2H purposes, cover purposes, ect. Movement purposes only, Meaning they do not get a extra die for moving through cover, but instead take the risk of taking a wound for landing in terrain.


Now you stated that "Under Moving Jump Infantry (Flyrants are counting as jump infantry during this stage)"

"All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95."
Well this clearly states the rules pertaining to the movement of Jump infantry,
Which Clearly denotes the fact that anything which lists that it follows the movement rules for jump infantry, pertains to them,

This is very clear, a model which moves like Jump Infantry can DS,

Though it reminds me of the arguments which go Q: "Are the wings of the valkyrie part of the Hull?" A: "No"
But people go on and on about it,

My question is:

Why are you selectively applying what it says under the "movement" heading on page 52 of the BRB?

The Tyranid Codex says that models with Wings "move" as "Jump Infantry." Under "movement" on the "Jump Infantry" page in the BRB it says that "all jump infantry units" can Deep Strike.

Without a bunch of beardy over-thinking, it would seem that the rules would indicate that a HT with Wings can Deep Strike.

Period.

Are you just arguing for something to do? Let me know and I'll stop trying to convince you of what is written clearly in the Rule Book.

Yeah does seem a bit funny to me,


But it is clear,
Outside of debate,
Jump pack = DS,
Thus HT w Wing = JP = DS,

Pretty clear,


Though side note,
GWAR Tyranid faq is pretty solid,
just 3 things
1 the wings, pretty clear they can DS RAW,
and the other 2,
Tyr.34.02 No, unless you have a swarmlord, as its bonus is from a different rule, thus allowing 2+ reserves on turn 2,

Tyr.35.03
Yes,
The swarmlord is a hive tyrant, as stated on pg 86 "You may include one brood of tyrant guard for each hive tyant in your army (including the swarmlord)..."
thus the swarmlord is a hivetyrant.

If there was a rule "Models with this rule can move as cavalry" would it be reasonable to say that a unit with that rule had fleet and could move 12" during the assault phase? Is a model which moves as a jetbike prohibited from running? The answer is 'Yes' even though neither of those rules are listed under Movement for those unit types.

If they have movement rules outside of the Movement header, how can anyone reasonably assume that all of the rules in the Movement section are actually *movement*?

I have a few beefs with the Space Marine section of that FAQ as well.

For example, there is no reason at all why the Gauntlets of Ultramar shouldn't give an extra attack for having two special close combat weapons.

"Matched pair of Powerfists" really sounds like "two powerfists" which would seem to me to confer another attack according to what the BRB says.

I only bring it up here to indicate that maybe people shouldn't trust everything they read on the internet on these subjects. Just reading the rule book and talking things out with your local gaming group or your friends will resolve 99% of rules disputes.

solkan wrote:If there was a rule "Models with this rule can move as cavalry" would it be reasonable to say that a unit with that rule had fleet and could move 12" during the assault phase? Is a model which moves as a jetbike prohibited from running? The answer is 'Yes' even though neither of those rules are listed under Movement for those unit types.

If they have movement rules outside of the Movement header, how can anyone reasonably assume that all of the rules in the Movement section are actually *movement*?

Moving as cavalry would never even happen, since they move like infantry according to their movement description. I don't see how it's relevant anyway. If something "moves as" something else then you at least follow the rules under the appropriate movement heading. Everything else is utterly beside the point in this context.

"All of the rules in the Movement section" are the bare minimum of what is allowable.

Lost Ripper wrote:Jump pack = DS,
Thus HT w Wing = JP = DS,

Try reading for once. Wings are NOT a Jump Pack. Jump Packs make the model Jump Infantry.

Wings allow the model to MOVE as if Jump Infantry.

They are NOT Jump Infantry, so they Cannot Deep Strike. This is the Rules as Written. If you don't like it, tough. House rule it if you want, but you will be breaking the rules.

Period.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:For example, there is no reason at all why the Gauntlets of Ultramar shouldn't give an extra attack for having two special close combat weapons.

There are many, many reasons actually. Just because you don't like it doesn't change what the rules say.

edit: changed my mind, proceed as you were

although I do think the argument should really focus on the fact Deep Strike isn't actually movement, because the only reason what I said is wrong, is the specifics of the phrase "may move as jump infantry". I think it is the fact that Deep Strike isn't a "movement phase action" that jump infantry can normally make which fails to encompass it within the "counts as" more so than the strict wording of "Jump Infantry may" within the Jump Infantry movement rules.

To answer your comments about my FAQ:

Lost Ripper wrote:
1 the wings, pretty clear they can DS RAW,

That's wrong, they cannot Deep Strike. Please read the multiple times I have had to explain it as to why.
and the other 2,

Tyr.34.02 No, unless you have a Swarmlord, as its bonus is from a different rule, thus allowing 2+ reserves on turn 2,

Errm... The Sarmlord has a Different rule all together. 34.02 deals with two Hive Tyrants.

Tyr.35.03
Yes,
The swarmlord is a hive tyrant, as stated on pg 86 "You may include one brood of tyrant guard for each hive tyant in your army (including the swarmlord)..."
thus the swarmlord is a hivetyrant.

Sorry, wrong. Firstly, that's the Tyrant Guard Entry. Secondly, a unit called "The Swarmlord" is no more a Hive Tyrant than a Telion is a Chapter Master. Thirdly, nowhere in the Swarmlords rules does it say it is a Hive Tyrant. Thus, it is not a Hive Tyrant. Again, you don't have to like it, but that is what the rules say.

@Drunkspleen: So, what is your justification for allowing Tyrant Guard to Deep Strike in with a Winged Tyrant, as that is what your "interpretation" allows.

To continue the Calgar discussion, it looks like Gwar is agreeing with me that he, in power armour, can deep strike when attached to a unit of Assault Marines.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:To continue the Calgar discussion, it looks like Gwar is agreeing with me that he, in power armour, can deep strike when attached to a unit of Assault Marines.

I'm not?

Then what rule forbids it? The unit has the deep strike rule, and unless there is a rule that would disallow it, they can deep strike.

Again, Deep Strike is not a USR lost if an IC joins. Nothing in the Deep Strike or IC rules forbids it. There is a rule saying the unit's movement is constrained by the IC, but Deep Striking is apparently not movement.

Gwar! wrote:@Drunkspleen: So, what is your justification for allowing Tyrant Guard to Deep Strike in with a Winged Tyrant, as that is what your "interpretation" allows.

I assume this is regarding my since edited comment dealing with the similarity of "Jump Infantry may move up to 12 inches" and "Jump Infantry may deep strike"

I was mainly trying to point out that the Inclusion of the term Jump Infantry in the phrase is not enough reason on it's own for a non Jump Infantry model using Jump Infantry rules to be allowed to use it, for example if the wings biomorph said it allows a model to "follow all rules of Jump Infantry, however the models unit type remains unchanged" I would consider that sufficient to let them Deep Strike.

In this instance, I agree that the model is not allowed to deep strike, however I feel it is because Deep Strike is a form of deployment, not a form of movement.

Actually, Assault Squads do NOT have Deep Strike as a unit Special Rule. They have it by virtue of being jump Infantry. Each individual model has the rule permitting the model to deep strike.

Thus, if you attach Calgar in PA, not everyone has the Rule, thus you cannot legally deploy all the models, thus the unit cannot deep strike.

The language is very clear here.

In this 'wings' case the operative phrase of 'as if' or 'like' something is a simile to compare two separate things and explain the points that are similar. One, however, does not equal the other.

Now take for instance the case of the space marine chaplain. The chaplain is an IC and his unit type is 'Infantry' I can equip him per the entry in the army list with a jump pack. Now he is infantry with a jump back... quandary - can he deep strike? yes and here is why -

Pg 100 of C:SM says under Jump Packs "Models quipped with jump packs are jump infantry, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook" The key is ...ARE JUMP INFANTRY... not 'as if' they' were or 'move like'

You may now graduate to 6th grade English, having learned the difference between similes and metaphors

Gwar! wrote:Actually, Assault Squads do NOT have Deep Strike as a unit Special Rule. They have it by virtue of being jump Infantry. Each individual model has the rule permitting the model to deep strike.

Thus, if you attach Calgar in PA, not everyone has the Rule, thus you cannot legally deploy all the models, thus the unit cannot deep strike.

The unit's type is Jump Infanty, and I'd say that grants them the Deep Strike rule. Regardless, change it to Eldrad and a unit of Warp Spiders, or Ghazgull and a unit of Stormboyz and my point stands.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Actually, Assault Squads do NOT have Deep Strike as a unit Special Rule. They have it by virtue of being jump Infantry. Each individual model has the rule permitting the model to deep strike.

Thus, if you attach Calgar in PA, not everyone has the Rule, thus you cannot legally deploy all the models, thus the unit cannot deep strike.

The unit's type is Jump Infanty, and I'd say that grants them the Deep Strike rule. Regardless, change it to Eldrad and a unit of Warp Spiders, or Ghazgull and a unit of Stormboyz and my point stands.

I'm with Gwar on this one, You can't declare a unit to be Deep Striking unless all members of that unit have the Deep Strike special rule, regardless of how they may have obtained it.

Where in the Deep Strike rules does it say that?

Where does it say a model with out the ability may perform it? I can not find that either.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Where in the Deep Strike rules does it say that?

Where in the Deep Strike rules does it say you have to have the Deep Strike special rule to deploy that way?

It says some units have special rules allowing them to deep strike.

InquisitorFabius wrote:Where does it say a model with out the ability may perform it? I can not find that either.

It doesn't need to. A unit of IG Stormtroopers has the Deep Strike special rule, which is not lost when an IC without it joins, as it is not a USR marked with an asterisk. It's a similar situation as the one that technically allows a Warboss to utilize Snikrot's Ambush special rule.

If you do not think deep striking is part of a unit's movement, then Yarrick would be allowed to deep strike if he's attached to a unit of Storm Troppers. If the deep strike option is part of a unit's movement allowance, then he could not, and Tyranids with wings can deep strike.

This seems to be stirring quite strong emotions in a lot of people. Again I think we can take 2 approaches here and I have a few points regarding each.

1. Rules as Intended. Seems to me that there has been very little discussion about whether it was intended for the Hive Tyrant to deep strike. From my point of view, he was clearly allowed to Deep Strike in the old codex, and there are other monsters in the game that deep strike now. In addition it makes sense that he can fly on the battlefield with wings. I believe if we can at least agree that the rules are sloppy, and that it was intended for him to deep strike, then we can move on, until it is FAQ'ed, which should be soon.

2. Rules as Written. For some of us, common sense is not enough. We want to take a toy soldier game to the next level. It seems to me that the crux of the argument here is this: People who do not believe he deep strikes say "Being Jump Infantry allows you to deep strike. Since you are not Jump Infantry you cannot deep strike." The people who do want him to deep strike say, "Being jump infantry is a sufficient but not necessary condition for deep striking. Since deep striking is categorised broadly as movement by virtue of being in the movement paragraph, and by being referred to as movement in the deep striking rule, if you move like Jump Infantry you can deep strike".

I tend to agree with the second interpretation. The people who narrowly focus on the "being jump infantry" are perhaps using forced logic. Seems to me they are saying you are jump infantry = deep strike. You are not jump infantry you cannot deep strike. Isn t that like saying you are a banana = you are yellow. If you are not a banana you are not yellow. Surely there are other things that are yellow and not bananas. Using that argument does not logically prove you cannot deep strike. However the other interpretation does not prove it either though there is strong evidence to believe it. If either side had a logic proof argument we would not be on page 4 of this post.

If the rules are ambiguous and cannot be conclusively established one way or another, why cant we just agree that it can based on the previous codex and the fluff and description?

I have to say I never really paid any attention to the finer wording of the wings biomorph. I will be bringing this to the attention of my gaming group and just see how they think it should be played. I would say that's probably the safest way to play it, regardless of who is right or wrong, until an FAQ comes out.

The DS rules state "a UNIT..." may deepstrike.

An attached IC without DS is part of the unit, yes?

Therefore the UNIT does NOT have DS and therefore may NOT DS. When answering the question "does the unit have DS?" You are unable to answer Yes or No - you can only answer "partly"

This does not fulfill the criteria for allowing the unit to Deepstrike, therefore it cannot deepstrike. In other words - the unit does not need to explicitly lose DS when a non DS IC joins because it cant use it anyway.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The DS rules state "a UNIT..." may deepstrike.

An attached IC without DS is part of the unit, yes?

Therefore the UNIT does NOT have DS and therefore may NOT DS. When answering the question "does the unit have DS?" You are unable to answer Yes or No - you can only answer "partly"

This does not fulfill the criteria for allowing the unit to Deepstrike, therefore it cannot deepstrike. In other words - the unit does not need to explicitly lose DS when a non DS IC joins because it cant use it anyway.

i can see it now 2 space marines holding the librarian in artificer armour as they jump out of the thunderhawk. Personally i think this is cover by page 48 'Special Rules' but that's just me.

As to the person that mentioned moving like cavalry ... they would move like infantry, no fleet (it is no longer a movement) but charge 12"

"Jump infantry units may enter the battle by deepsrtike" is the tyrant a unit of Jump infantry? No? then they get nothing.

I can imagine it now - the librarian wishing hed remembered where his jump pack was as one marine gets shot out the sky, resulting in a nice pinwheel effect around the combined centre of gravity of the Libby and Assault Marine...

I can picture it now, the captain with jump pack holding a daisy chain of sternguard as he deep strikes in because this is a ridiculous slippery slope of an argument.

Drunkspleen wrote:I can picture it now, the captain with jump pack holding a daisy chain of sternguard as he deep strikes in because this is a ridiculous slippery slope of an argument.

If we were gonna go that far then I'd go further 55 man blobbed infantry platoon being teleported in by a single Malleus Inquisitor in terminator armour (DH total 40pts)

well off topic but it is clear of two things hive tyrant w wings can deepstrike i have only seen badly done rationalizations trying to say "no,cause ..." with no real explanation of why. and in two places in the nid codex states that a swarmlord is a tyrant the fact that it was missed as a direct declaration and saying strange things as in no doom has no warp field makes me question your assumptions in these cases

Since a few people have (again) mistated the wording of the rule, lets go (once again) back to the basics:


"Models equipped with with wings move in the same way as jump infantry.."


So we now understand that winged models are not counted as jump infantry, they arent moving like jump infantry, they arent doing abything except: Winged models move in the same way as jump infantry

Now, how do jump infantry move?

We look to the jump infantry rules, and there is a convenient section called movement. They can move as regular infantry in the movement phase, they can move up to 12" by using their jump packs with a few added factors, and there is a line at the end saying that jump infantry may enter the battle by deep strike. Hmm, so jump infantry can do this thing called deepstrike, but even tho its listed under the movement rules....is it in some way a move?

Off to the rules on deep strike to find out.


On pg 95 we find the following under deepstrike:

"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, ..."

Move any further certainly means that they have already moved.


We also have:

"they are too disrupted by theri deep strike move."

As clear can be, by RAW we have deep strike is indeed a type of move.





So to recap:

1) Winged models move as jump infantry.
2) Jump infantry can deep strike.
3) Deep strike is a move.

Therefore we have the result: Winged infantry can deep strike.



Early on we had some people saying that deep strike wasnt a move, but we see that instead it IS a move (no matter what else it may be as well). We also have people saying that only models called jump infantry on their entry can deep strike, but thats not taking into account the more specific rules of the winged models. Winged models are not jump infantry, they just get to move however jump infantry moves.

Unless someone can supply an answer to the above it seems quite clear that winged models can deepstrike.


Sliggoth


PS Talking about how or if SM of various sorts deep strike might be interesting, but isnt really relevant to this discussion unless the space marine happens to be winged. We have a very specific rule for winged models here and how they move.

Lost Ripper wrote:well off topic but it is clear of two things hive tyrant w wings can deepstrike i have only seen badly done rationalizations trying to say "no,cause ..." with no real explanation of why. and in two places in the nid codex states that a swarmlord is a tyrant the fact that it was missed as a direct declaration and saying strange things as in no doom has no warp field makes me question your assumptions in these cases

Because a swarmlord is not a hive tyrant, and Doom is not a Zoanthrope. Read the unit entry, not the fluff. States nowhere they are.

People keep quoting page 95, yet to notice the last sentence of the Movement part on page 52. It says JUMP INFANTRY UNITS may DS, not models that move like them. Hence if your Unit type isn't Jump Infantry you don't get to deep strike.

@ InquisitorFabius We also have a rule saying that winged models move as jump infantry.

Once again, there is no need for the winged models to actually BE jump infantry.

Winged models move as jump infantry move, agreed?

Jump infantry can deep strike, agreed?

Deep strike is in some way a move, agreed?

So winged models can deep strike.


Quoting that jump infantry can deep strike is helpful, just keep following the logic process and dont stop there. If deep strike is a move then you are just confirming that winged models can deep strike.

If there was a rule somewhere that stated only jump infantry can deep strike, then perhaps there would be room to argue; however there is no such requirement that a unit be jump infantry in order to deep strike. Deep strike tells us that itself, it even happens to mention flying as one of the means of using deep strike.


Sliggoth

Moving as and being are two totally separate things. That is the difference. Models that act like JI are not true JI, thus can not DS.

To use your own formula:

Is a Hive Tyrant Jump Infantry? No, it is a MC.

Can a MC DS? No.

A Hive Tyrant can not Deep Strike as its Unit Type is MC.

Please quote where a model has to be jump infantry in order to be able to deep strike?

There is no such requirement that I can find in the BGB. Of course, if there was such a rule then termies couldnt deep strike, or the various other units that can burrow to deep strike etc. Winged models do not have to be jump infantry.

Moving as is ALL thats needed, if deep strike is a move.



Sliggoth

Please tell me where I even came remotely close to stating such.

Also all your examples have specific instructions as to the fact that they can Deep Strike.

well as to hive tyrant statement under tyrant guard it clearly states that the swarmlord is a tyrant , and for the jump pack statement since a mc w wings gets " moves in the same way as jump infantry " if that doesnt mean that you follow the rules for jp movement -which includes rules for ds on page 95 - then i must assume there is a linguistic barrier there are no rules worded in legalese in the books and it seems that some people are hunting for then using very questionable rationale to explain how come

wings, jump infantry etc

trollface.jpg

@ InquisitorFabius

Well, the problem with your line of statements is that there is no restriction about a MC not being able to deep strike. n fact, we have as an example the mawloc, a MC that in fact can deep strike. there is nothing about being a MC that is relevant to the question of being able to deep strike.

So if a MC can deep strike it appeared that it was the jump infantry part that made it not able to deep strike.


So we once again come back to a winged creature being able to deep strike, since all thats reuqired is that they move as jump infantry moves.


Sliggoth

InquisitorFabius wrote:
Is a Hive Tyrant Jump Infantry? No, it is a MC.

Can a MC DS? No.

A Hive Tyrant can not Deep Strike as its Unit Type is MC.

Daemon Princes with wings can Deep Strike. So there goes that theory. Interestingly, the reason that they had to specify that units with wings could DS in the Chaos Codex is because all units that move like Jump Infantry didn't automatically get the ability to DS in 4th Edition.

Gwar! wrote:

Lost Ripper wrote:Jump pack = DS,
Thus HT w Wing = JP = DS,

Try reading for once. Wings are NOT a Jump Pack. Jump Packs make the model Jump Infantry.

Wings allow the model to MOVE as if Jump Infantry.

They are NOT Jump Infantry, so they Cannot Deep Strike. This is the Rules as Written. If you don't like it, tough. House rule it if you want, but you will be breaking the rules.

Period.

Don't even bring up RAW in this. You've selectively applying the Jump Infantry movement rules based on nothing but your own whims.

Let me break it down, again, and maybe you'll directly answer a question for once.

Wings = "Move as Jump Infantry"

The movement section on the Jump Infantry page, when read in it's entirety, states that units with this ability may Deep Strike.

So the question is this: Why are you selectively applying the movement text on page 52 in the BRB? By your reasoning I don't have to treat difficult terrain as dangerous terrain because it says "a moving jump infantry model" has to do so, right? Oh, and Jump Infantry models can't end their move on top of other models! Gee whiz, I guess a winged Hive Tyrant can, since it's not jump infantry! Weak sauce, if you follow your arguments to their logical conclusion.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Gauntlets of Ultramar thing is poppycock by they way. Are the Raven's Talons also one weapon?

Moving as and being are two totally separate things. That is the difference. Models that act like JI are not true JI, thus can not DS.

To use your own formula:

Is a Hive Tyrant Jump Infantry? No, it is a MC.

Can a MC DS? No.

A Hive Tyrant can not Deep Strike as its Unit Type is MC.

By this argument Wings are entirely useless, Jump Infantry can move 12".

Is a Hive Tyrant Jump Infantry? No, it is a MC.

Can a MC move 12"? No.

Why are you accepting that they benefit from one type of movement (moving 12") but not another (arriving by DS)? Why to difference the rules state that Jump infantry can move 12" just as they state Jump Infantry can move by arriving via Deep strike?

Guys, it's pretty simple.

Tyrant is a Monstrous Creature. Monstrous Creatures cannot deep strike.

Jump Infantry may Deepstrike.

Wings allow the Tyrant to move as if it was Jump Infantry.

Ergo, Wings do not make the Tyrant change it's unit type, thus he cannot deepstrike.

Unless you believe that deep striking is part of the movement allowance granted to jump infantry, then the Flyrant can indeed deep strike.

Monstrous Creatures cannot deep strike.

Where are you getting this rule from?

Jump Infantry may Deepstrike.

What you mean by this is: one move Jump Infantry can make is to arrive by Deepstrike.

Wings allow the Tyrant to move as if it was Jump Infantry.

Ergo they can Deepstrike.

Ergo, Wings do not make the Tyrant change it's unit type, thus he cannot deepstrike.

So can they move 12"? How is your argument preventing them from making a DS move different to one preventing them from moving 12"?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Tyrant is a Monstrous Creature. Monstrous Creatures cannot deep strike.

People who aren't reading the thread continue bring this up.

It's absolutely false, as has been pointed out repeatedly.

Monster Rain wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Tyrant is a Monstrous Creature. Monstrous Creatures cannot deep strike.

People who aren't reading the thread continue bring this up.

It's absolutely false, as has been pointed out repeatedly.

Would you mind then providing us the quote from the rulebook which says "MC Can Deep Strike" then please?

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Unless you believe that deep striking is part of the movement allowance granted to jump infantry, then the Flyrant can indeed deep strike.

Deep striking is categorically NOT movement. Deep Striking is in fact an alternate means of Deployment.

please show where it states that mcs cannot ds countering the ds ability granted by jump infantry movement if you cannot show where it states mc units may not ds then the wings obviously breaks no rules stating that they cannot.

Lost Ripper wrote:well as to hive tyrant statement under tyrant guard it clearly states that the swarmlord is a tyrant , and for the jump pack statement since a mc w wings gets " moves in the same way as jump infantry " if that doesnt mean that you follow the rules for jp movement -which includes rules for ds on page 95 - then i must assume there is a linguistic barrier there are no rules worded in legalese in the books and it seems that some people are hunting for then using very questionable rationale to explain how come

there's no point in arguing. the last 3 pages have been the same argument repeated almost verbatim. you can't convince someone who believes that you can't use something listed under "movement" despite "moving" using those rules because of a restriction that they (not GW) put on it. the same people probably argued that Nork wasn't an ogryn (despite listing it in the fluff, the model looking/being based exactly as an ogryn, and previous editions of the same character being an ogryn) and the same group who said although wolfguard "count as" troops with logan grimnar you can't take 6 of them. GW per their faq (here, i'll call it house rules to save anyone the trouble) has determined that "counts as" is the same thing as "is". so, for the purposes of moving (as listed under... wait for it... "movement") only, a hive tyrant with wings IS jump infantry.

Gwar! wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Tyrant is a Monstrous Creature. Monstrous Creatures cannot deep strike.

People who aren't reading the thread continue bring this up.

It's absolutely false, as has been pointed out repeatedly.

Would you mind then providing us the quote from the rulebook which says "MC Can Deep Strike" then please?

I guess the bit about directly answering a question is out.

With the proper upgrades, a MC can deep strike. What is incorrect is the statement "MCs can't deeps strike." Under certain circumstances they can, such as when given the ability to move as jump infantry as per the RAW on page 52 of the BRB.

And scene.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Unless you believe that deep striking is part of the movement allowance granted to jump infantry, then the Flyrant can indeed deep strike.

Deep striking is categorically NOT movement. Deep Striking is in fact an alternate means of Deployment.

That's interesting. Why is it then listed under the movement heading?

Oh dear. I was warned about YMDC.

Here goes!

Pp84, Tyranid Codex.

Models equipped with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry, as described in the Warhamme 40,000 rulebook.

Pp52, Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook.

Jump Infantry can use ther jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement Phase. This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish. When using Jump Packs, they can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test. Jump infantry models may not end their move on top of other models or impassable terrain, except that they can end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actully possibly to place the models on top of it. If they do that, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain. All jump infantry units may enter the battle by deep strike as explained on Pp95.

So, what is the important part? At no point does the Tyrant actually become Jump Infantry, he merely gains their movement rules.

As I said above, Deep Striking is *not* movement, it is deployment. Ergo, the Tyrant cannot Deep Strike with his Wings. And since he doesn't have access to a Mycetic Spore, may only Deep Strike in games of Planetstrike when attacking.

Easy when you read your rule book.

Actually, what you're doing is reading the book and not following the rules on the page.

I can see you're all pointedly avoided what I said a few posts back.

"as described in the 40k rulebook" would mean that they would follow the rules for Jump Infantry under movement on page 52. It says that Jump Infantry can DS. I don't understand what's so hard about this.

Except I am, to the letter. Deep Striking is an alternate form of Deployment.

Ergo, it is not Movement, as otherwise no Heavy Weapon could fire on the first turn of the game, as Deployment would mean it had moved. And indeed, not until the 2nd turn would anything be able to move at all, instead having used it's first turn movement to deploy.

Please stop clutching at straws. The wording is nice and clear.

As for me pointedly avoiding, I didn't. I missed it. Large difference. What I said about Monstrous Creatures being unable to Deepstrike was poorly written. What I should have said is that Wings do not change a Tyrant's unit type to Jump Infantry, and the rules for Monstrous Creatures do not include Deep Striking. Though this in itself doesn't prevent them actually deep striking through other means. Sadly, Wings isn't one of them.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Pp52, Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook.

Jump Infantry can use ther jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement Phase. This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish. When using Jump Packs, they can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test. Jump infantry models may not end their move on top of other models or impassable terrain, except that they can end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actully possibly to place the models on top of it. If they do that, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain. All jump infantry units may enter the battle by deep strike as explained on Pp95.

So, what is the important part? At no point does the Tyrant actually become Jump Infantry, he merely gains their movement rules.

Easy when you read your rule book.

Wait, wasn't this whole section you just quoted from the Movement Rules of Jump Infantry... which you just said "he merely gains their movement rules".... now i'm really puzzled.

So are you reading the thread before you jump into the discussion? I'll say it again.

So the question is this: Why are you selectively applying the movement text on page 52 in the BRB? By your reasoning I don't have to treat difficult terrain as dangerous terrain because it says "a moving jump infantry model" has to do so, right? Oh, and Jump Infantry models can't end their move on top of other models! Gee whiz, I guess a winged Hive Tyrant can, since it's not jump infantry! Weak sauce, if you follow your arguments to their logical conclusion.

You can't have it both ways.

airmang wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Pp52, Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook.

Jump Infantry can use ther jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement Phase. This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish. When using Jump Packs, they can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test. Jump infantry models may not end their move on top of other models or impassable terrain, except that they can end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actully possibly to place the models on top of it. If they do that, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain. All jump infantry units may enter the battle by deep strike as explained on Pp95.

So, what is the important part? At no point does the Tyrant actually become Jump Infantry, he merely gains their movement rules.

Easy when you read your rule book.

Wait, wasn't this whole section you just quoted from the Movement Rules of Jump Infantry... which you just said "he merely gains their movement rules".... now i'm really puzzled.

+1

They get the movement rules, just not the last line of the rules covered in the movement section for some reason.

YEs I can, because if you bothered reading what I had posted, it follows the MOVEMENT rule for Jump Infantry.

Deep Striking, as I keep saying, and you keep ignoring, IS NOT MOVEMENT. IT IS DEPLOYMENT.

You are making a false assumption.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:YEs I can, because if you bothered reading what I had posted, it follows the MOVEMENT rule for Jump Infantry.

Exactly, so they move 12 inches! No dangerous terrain checks, no moving over terrain freely... because they're not jump infantry! Right? We're only following the first rule in the paragraph, because that's the only part that's "movement" right?

No. Because all of that is under the movement heading. Just like Deep Strike.

As I said above, Deep Striking is *not* movement, it is deployment.

Please show the RaW that is leading you to this conclusion. The counter conclusion is illustrated by:

The mention of the DS ability being under the "movement" section for jump infantry oon page 52 of the BRB. Then on page 95 we find the rules for Ceep Striking:

"In the movement Phase the arrive, these units may not move further" stress was added by me. Therefore they have already moved.

"In that turn's shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous Movement phase." Again reference to having moved.

"they are too disrupted by their deep strike move." Again notice deep strike move.

So please explain to me how you come to the conclusion DSing isn't a type of movement?

damn if one of you asked your spouse to look at wings rule then read the movement section in jump infantry they would agree that they can ds but dont get move through cover and can take wounds anything further on this is just painfull as the awnser is quite obvious they can. period. unless in your logic chain they dont take wounds upon landing as thats not movement. stop hitting your heads against a wall that says yes they can. so obvious.

Deep Striking is not listed under movement rules. It is instead listed as an alternate form of deployment, end of.

Last time i checked the rules, deployment occured before the game has begun. Correct. Then once the game has begun what are the phases of the game, Movement, Shooting,Assualt.....What phase of the game do units deploy after the game has started...ummmmm, oh yeah the movement phase. There is no deployment phase before the movement phase has begun. So what some are arguing is that there is a new phase to the game. First we have Deployment phase, then movement and then shooting/assualt phase. Moving as if you are jump infantry means you move as if you are jump infantry. Deepstriking occurs during the movment phase.

In almost everygame i play in, my opponent after assualts goes, "Your Move". And you know why they say "Your move", it is because it is the movement phase, not the deployment phase. So if i move like jump infantry, i guess i can deepstrike because that is considered movement because that is what phase of the game I'm in.

On another point, i'm sure the people who are against the hive tyrant deepstriking believe the hive tyrant should take dangerous terrain checks jumping into cover, but by your arguements they shouldn't because the are MCs and not jump infantry.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Except I am, to the letter. Deep Striking is an alternate form of Deployment.

that GW decided to list under "movement" for jump infantry... and you count as having moved when using it... and you can't move after doing it... because it's movement! wings get it. you're not following RAW but RAYHAW (rules as you have additionally written).

Special K is a genius. I don't know why I never saw this before...

Deep Strike does happen in the movement phase!

Also, RAYHAW is my new favorite acronym ever.

Deep Striking is not listed under movement rules. It is instead listed as an alternate form of deployment, end of.

You've just made this up DS is mentioned nowhere under the deployment rules. It is listed under the Mission Special rules. Is moving on from reserve now not a type of movement? Is night fighting a type of deployment? Do vehicles never move or shoot or get shot at as their rules are listed under the vehicles section not the movement or shooting sections?

Please back up with RaW why DS is not a type of movement.

GW probably stopped elaborating on the JP/Wings thing because they figured we would easily come to an agreement and follow the idea they had intended. :checks page amount in this thread: Well...there is still hope for a settlement at some point.

Kurgash wrote:GW probably stopped elaborating on the JP/Wings thing because they figured we would easily come to an agreement and follow the idea they had intended. :checks page amount in this thread: Well...there is still hope for a settlement at some point.

Correct, Hence the start of universal rules style, where the rules are put in and all follow the same wording,

this was better then having to check 3-4 books, like in 2nd ed,


Thusly,

Wings= DS,


Though according to RAYHAW, (Yeah I love it)

The swarmlord is not a hive tyrant, and thusly cannot use any powers since they all hive tyrant powers, and he cannot regain wounds back since it only gives the wounds to hive tyrant that fired it,
Which he isnt,


Silly Rabbit,
Trix are for kids,

Now the real question,

How many of you guys who believe wings dont count for movement rules (AKA deep strike)
would fire at the valkyrie if you only spot the wings,

What's this about the Valkyrie, now?

We could bring up a previous discussion ( can Scarab Swarms run ? ) and apply the mechanics here. In that topic the majority was in favor that Scarab Swarms ( and similar Infantry that Move Like Jetbikes ) could not run - despite being infantry they had to follow all movement rules that applied to jetbikes --> bikes ... since bikes cannot run then things that move like bikes cannot run.

With that process in mind I would think that Nids-n-Wings would be allowed to Deep Strike since they should follow all of the movement rules for Jump Infantry since they are moving like Jump Infantry ( they just aren't actually Jump Infantry ).

And yes, I understand that DS in an element of Deployment, but it is movement as well - saying that it isn't would mean that as an example: a DS unit that has weapon type Rapid Fire would be able to land and fire their weapons once up to their max range ( or double tap within the 12 inch range ).

Monster Rain wrote:What's this about the Valkyrie, now?

You have to draw LOS to the hull or turret of vehicles you wish to fire at, and ignore other elements,

Thus,

Wings are ignored since they are not part of the hull.

Lost Ripper wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:What's this about the Valkyrie, now?

You have to draw LOS to the hull or turret of vehicles you wish to fire at, and ignore other elements,

Thus,

Wings are ignored since they are not part of the hull.

Hull: the main body of a usually large or heavy craft or vehicle (as an airship or tank)

I think Merriam-Webster would disagree with that assessment.

Of course, one could argue that wings aren't part of the main body of an airship. But then, it wouldn't be much of an airship without them.

No they as well as you agree, The Body... Thus the wings are not part of the body or hull of the airship.
Hehe, read the definition again,
Hull, The Main Body.

Just so wwe are clear about parts of a plane,
According to NASA
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/airplane.html

toxic_wisdom wrote:I understand that DS in an element of Deployment, but it is movement as well - saying that it isn't would mean that as an example: a DS unit that has weapon type Rapid Fire would be able to land and fire their weapons once up to their max range ( or double tap within the 12 inch range ).

That doesn't actually follow from what anyone on either side has said. By the wording on pg 95, conveniently left out in several of the posts above, Deep Striking units "count as having moved." They didn't actually move, but they count as having moved, so they can't max range fire their Rapid Fire weapons, use Heavy Weapons, etc.

Monster Rain wrote:I think Merriam-Webster would disagree with that assessment.

Merriam-Webster can go suck on a lemon. The Rules are Written in English. Merriam-Webster is not an English Dictionary. Try Oxford next time.

From OXford,
hull1

• noun the main body of a ship or other vessel, including the bottom, sides and deck but not the superstructure, engines, and other fittings.

Lost Ripper wrote:From OXford,
hull1

• noun the main body of a ship or other vessel, including the bottom, sides and deck but not the superstructure, engines, and other fittings.

I'll get the ice for that burn....

Errm, it's not a burn? I was not disputing the Definition, I was disputing the Source.

Also, putting Ice on a Burn is about the WORST thing you can do. If it's a light superficial burn, you want to keep it running under cold water, but not ice.

If it's a Srs burn, well, call a bloody ambulance!

Gwar! wrote:Merriam-Webster can go suck on a lemon. The Rules are Written in English. Merriam-Webster is not an English Dictionary. Try Oxford next time.

*facepalm*

Gwar. . . you can't arbitrarily throw out the understanding of the language that, oh, MUCH OF THE WORLD has of a language because you don't personally like it. American English is much wore widespread than British English is, actually, so regardless of your personal and unsupported opinion, American English and, yes, American dictionaries are going to be used. That's just a fact. It's not something that can be debated, even.

American English is much wore widespread than British English is, actually, so regardless of your personal and unsupported opinion, American English and, yes, American dictionaries are going to be used. That's just a fact. It's not something that can be debated, even.

It has nothing to do with "liking" a language the rule book is written in British English hence that is the only relevant language for discussing the rules. American English, French, German or any other language are irrelevant for rules discussions relating to GW products.

That doesn't actually follow from what anyone on either side has said. By the wording on pg 95, conveniently left out in several of the posts above, Deep Striking units "count as having moved." They didn't actually move, but they count as having moved, so they can't max range fire their Rapid Fire weapons, use Heavy Weapons, etc.

What phase does it happen in? Why is it described as a "deep strike move"? Why does it state that you cannot move "further" (hence have already moved some way).

Please state what Deep strike is if not movement? Please state the rules governing this.

No its fine as to the source,
Book was written by Uk english users,
So we should get those definitions,
Like the possible difference of UK Billions, and US Billions,

The valk question has been debated several times, and can certainly be debated in its own thread again if one so desires.

Lets see, new fallacies have cropped up as well as a few of the old ones arising yet again.

Deepstrike may certainly be a form of deployment, that would be interesting but has nothing to do with whether or not DS is also some form of a move.

Looking under the rules on pg 95 we find that DS most certainly IS CATEGORICALLY a move. Read the ds rules please.

MC certainly can DS, we have multiple examples that hacve been brought up to show that they can. In fact, just about any type of unit can deep strike, Jump infantry can all deep strike, various infantry can deepstrike (such as termies), various MC can deepstrike (just look at a few of the other tryranid entries) and of course vehicles can deepstrike.


Just go back to the basics yet again, since people dont seem to want to read the previous posts on the thread:

1) Winged models move as jump infantry
2) Jump infantry can deep strike
3) Deep strike is a move
4) Winged models move as jump infantry, there for they can deepstrike

Number 1 is the basis of what is written in the tyrandi codex, number 2 is (hopefully) being accepted as true for jump infantry.

Some people seem to be having a problem with number 3, but as has been posted several times the rules on deep strike on pg 95 call deep strike a move. Even if you are looking at deepstrike as a form of deployment there is nothing to suggest that deepstrike cant also be other things as well, being deployment is not somehow exclusive.

Once number 3 is understood, we have to go along with number 4 as well. If jump infantry move in several ways (which they do, they can walk up to 6", they can *jump* up to 12" and they can deepstrike) then winged models can also move in several ways. However jump infantry move, winged creatures move that same way.

No model can deepstrike unless it is somehow given that ability. Some models have the ability listed on their statlines in the codex. Some models gain deepstrike through the use of some item of gear. Some models gain deepstrike because of their unit type (jump infantry)

There is no listing of the deepstrike under the terminator listing in the SM codex, yet we know that they can deepstrike because of their gear (termie armor). Just as there is no listing of deepstrike under any of the tyranids listings for winged creatures in the tyranid codex, yet we know they can deepstrike because of their gear (wings).


Sliggoth