Had a few test games against Avariel who likes to play Spacewolves and got massacred every game.
This is the list I been playing against.
HQ Rune Priest w chooser of the slain
Elite
3 Wolfguard
2 combi melta, Razorback w Las cannon + TL Plasma Gun
3 Wolfguard
2 combi melta, Razorback w Las cannon + TL Plasma Gun
3 Wolfguard
2 combi melta, Razorback w Las cannon + TL Plasma Gun
Troops
5 Grey Hunters
flamer, Razorback w Las cannon + TL Plasma Gun
5 Grey Hunters
flamer, Razorback w Las cannon + TL Plasma Gun
5 Grey Hunters
flamer, Razorback w Las cannon + TL Plasma Gun
5 Grey Hunters
flamer, Razorback w Las cannon + TL Plasma Gun
5 Grey Hunters
flamer, Razorback w Las cannon + TL Plasma Gun
Fast Attack
Landspeeder
Heavy Bolter + Typhoon Missle Launcher
Landspeeder
Heavy Bolter + Typhoon Missle Launcher
Landspeeder
Heavy Bolter + Typhoon Missle Launcher
Heavy Support
3 Long Fangs
2 Missle Launchers, Rhino
3 Long Fangs
2 Missle Launchers, Rhino
3 Long Fangs
2 Missle Launchers, Rhino
My first tyranid list was trying to do a drop assault type list
Tyrant with Hive commander and stranglethorn cannon
2 Zoanthropes in Pod
2 Zoanthropes in Pod
Death Leaper
30 Termigaunts
30 Termigaunts
pimped out Tervigon
pimped out Tervigon
Fast
4 Raveners
Heavy
Trygon
Trygon
This was an absolute disaster as deathleaper even rolling a 2 was not that effective at stoping jaws and I got shot up so bad with all the Las and missles and the Trygon arrived and stunned a Razorback and then was gone to las plas and missles. Zoanthropes did nothing as they got negated by Runic weapon or missed or just didn't roll a destroyed result. Raveners arrived before there was a tunnel so did nothing but get insta killed by missles later. Jaws killed my Tervigons and my gaunts got swept by Grey Hunters with Flamers who assaulted after burning.
The above list also lost really bad to mech vet IG with Vendettas and melta vets.
Tyrant is just expensive and didn't do much just for the +1 reserves so droping him
Deathleaper was ok but not amazing. Will keep trying him.
Zoanthropes did nothing at all and were almost useless in both games They stunned 1 rhino and killed 1 Chimera before eating it to missles or psycannons . They are fired.
Super gaunt tervigon package was ok till the tervi got jawsed will keep trying them.
Raveners with no way to ensure they come in after the Trygon to use the tunnel these aren't good. I love the models though.
Trygons should be called Try Gones cause they TRY to pop a vehicle and probably fail and then are GONE when they eat all the las/plas/missle fire. They are also fired.
After some adjustments to my list from my opponent I ended up with this
HQ Tyranid Prime with boneswords goes in Hive Guard
elite
3 hive guard
3 hive guard
death leaper
troops
30 Termigaunts
30 Termigaunts
pimped out Tervigon
pimped out Tervigon
heavy
tyranofex w rupture cannon
tyranofex w rupture cannon
so here we go with another game I roll a 1 for the deathleaper just great. here we go with dawn of war boo I only walk on my init 1 monsters just enough to be out of jaws range but the priest drove 12 first turn inside a long fangs rhino and then drives another 6 and I'm eating a jaws and a tyranofex goes bye bye before I can even shoot cause I didn't spot anything first turn joy. I am fairing slightly better because I have a cover layer of gaunts - hive guard - mcs with FNP on the hive guard. I am able to destroy his the Rune Priest Rhino but he gets out the back and I can no longer shoot him because he is out of los. priest jaws my tervigon next turn and then I finally kill him and the long fangs off. the gaunts get double burned and assaulted and dead, remaining t-fex keeps missing or not getting a kill shot but isn't getting shot either as everything is getting shot into hive guard and the remaining tervigon which finally drop and then its just clean up time for wolves.
Tyranid Prime was not bad as extra wounds for hive guard I didn't get to use his boneswords as he got shot to death will keep him around since he is cheaper then a tyrant.
Hive Guard - did an ok job killing Rhinos and having cover and FNP made them pretty survivable till the Tervigon got jawsed. They provide cover to MCs also so they are staying.
Deathleaper was a disapointment but he isn't very good vs wolves will keep him vs marine hoods.
Super gaunt Tervigon package hates jaws but things a bit better with hive guard for cover.
Dunno about Tyranofexes they are really expensive and not very reliable with BS3 they miss often and don't have AP1 to get vehicle killes. One did die turn 2 to Jaws so will continue trying them.
Space Wolves just seem like the Tyranids Kryptonite. Anyone have any ideas on how to beat space wolves? Maybe don't take any init 1 mcs but the super gaunt tervigon package is good in other match ups.
From what I can see, you got torn apart by Jaws many, many times; I'm not familiar with 'nids, but do they have anything which a Psychic Hood-like effect?
My advice: When I come up against a new army, or am experimenting with tactics, or anything new, I make a priority out of identifying threats. I ask my opponent at the start of the game to tell me a little about each unit and what it does so that I can plan for dealing with what will hurt me the most. When I run raider spam dark eldar or mechanized orks....I want to know where the anti-tank is in each unit, what it is and what its range is so that I can plan on best killing/avoiding it.
For you....you need to figure out what hurts you the most and learn to neutralize it.
Frankly, there are very, very few armies that can hold a candle to that particular SW list, nevermind hope to beat it. It's biggest weakness is its enormous price tag.
It's not just a Tyranid problem, though they are more vulnerable to Jaws than anyone else. Normally, for Tyranids, neutralizing this is priority, however in this list it isn't possible to take care of everything simultaneously.
To start with you are going to need 6 Guards, and 3 zoans in a drop pod.
Place all the guard out of LoS and use them to crack open his ridiculous number of transports. Drop the Zoans right next to the rune priest transport and fry it, if the rest of your shooting can't kill him then at least he will have to roll 3d6 for psychic tests. After that I would suggest filling your heavy slots with Mawlocs, have them DS on the opposite side as the priest, and disappear before he can drive over to them.
With that taken care of I would suggest running a massive wall of poison gaunts, most likely 2 x 30 terms, and 30 Horms, this will help you restrict movement and kill anything that falls out of their transports.
For a HQ I would just get a tyrant with a HVC and Tactical Insight.
I am not sure how many points you are playing, so any other points I would sink into tervs w/ sacs, glands, and catalyst.
Nids simply can't deal with that much mech saturation. It's one of the failings of codices who cram the majority of their anti tank options (Ork Dex, Nid Dex) into one FOC slot and expect everything to be hunkydory.
Gornall wrote:So is the Nid dex actually competitive, then?
Define competitive. The book has plenty of ways to deal with a great many things, but min/max mech is annoying for anyone and especially troublesome for 'nids.
The only solid tactic I can think of off hand, is having more wounds than his army can chip off. I can't imagine him having a very hard time against only a handful of MC's, but maxing them out, could even the odds a little.
I can't really say though, that is a pretty tough list for most armies. Not a particularly scary amount of firepower to be entirely honest, just well distributed, and annoying to thin out. A zippy Eldar force, could lay serious hurt into a list like that though; one or two rounds of shooting just wouldn't do enough damage against Wave serpents.
I am unfamiliar with the new Nid dex as it stands, but I can't imagine them being entirely defenseless against a tooled list. I have absolutely no clue how many of the new units will play out over time. You can be sure to find something viable, as people begin to figure out the new dex. It isn't always about tabling your opponent, there has to be at least one way for Nids to take on a list like that.
Perhaps some kind of swarm list would work, but you would have an awfully hard time doing any reasonable damage to his army.
Nids simply can't deal with that much mech saturation
I've been wondering about this for over a week now in every thread and now all of a sudden everyone agree with me, you and everyone else saying the same thing. The small GH squads with Razorbacks and a Rune Priest with Jaws is such a solid core to build an army around that I'm absolutely in love with it.
Fast Attack: Maximum Gargoyle squadx2
Flying Warriors
A big gargoyle screen to provide cover and a squad of fast Warriors to get to his line quickly. Hive Guard plink away. Warriors footslog and run to follow up on the flying warriors.
It might be enough wounds and bodies to get there fast enough to start glancing him into submission. Still think you're at a disadvantage, but it could work.
What about trying something like this as the core of your army?
(I have the german codex, so names may be off, but it should be obvious enough)
HQ Hive Tyrant - Tactical Instincts, ect.
Troops
Hormagants w/ Sporepods -160 pts each
3 or 4 of these
Heavy Support
Mawloc x3
What you're trying to do is drop the spore pods within 1" of the castle your opponent sets up, then tunnel up mawlocs under their fairly packed troops & transports. The hormagants should keep everything tight enough to cause several deaths as the mawlocs displace the tanks.
Possibly add lictors for pinpoint mawloc murder
To me that SW list is a good indication of why not balancing Codex over all is so bad. If you had to worry about Tau in the meta game, who would destroy that list, it wouldn't show up as much if at all, which would make it more balanced for Nids
Wouldn't some hive guard, hidden my gaunts and tervigon pose a big problem for this marine list.
It would take 6 razorbacks firing both the plasma guns and the lascannon to take down a tervigon, assuming no coversaves.
The tervigon + gaunt screen would move up, covering some ravenors. The marine squads themselves are small, and don't have much staying power. The list really needs its spam to survive.
Thats going to be a rough list to fight against, but might be doable
you could try lots of small/medium squads of warriors to stack up on heavy weapons, nixing that you could try lots of spore pods to stack up on weapons. Either way you will need to eliminate the S8+ weapons quickly.
3X squads of hive guard are necessary, I would take a squad of biovores as well, I think in this case hive guard are going to be more resiliant since he isnt really stacked up on heavy weapons too badly, and volumn of fire with hive guard will be nice. If you are running hive guard you /should/ be able to win a kill points game. As you rush all these transports with, the hive guard will also not allow them an incidental cover save
Despite what other people say, I kind of like mawlocs for the specific purpose of killing backline heavy weapon squads, just because they are just as tough, do some good kaboom on entry, and have hit and run incase they get charged after deep striking they can escape and /still/ kill the heavy weapons.
I also like yargrbl stealers, if he's clumping several transports together you could eliminate more than one with them, but taking up an elite spot they are probably not worth it.
Thats still a rough list to deal with, I think the real problem with bugs isn't they can't deal with lists like that, but they need a very specialized list to do so, and they don't have anything that people would have to build specifically against unlike mech.
I agree with sourclams: you need more Warriors. You especially need more Warriors toting guns. I'd say stick a Tervigon in there as well, for the extra Termagants, but otherwise fill up your Troops with Warriors. It might be something to take Raveners with gun symbiotes as well.
I'll add that you should have some spore mines. Lots of them.
This list isn't quite as tough as it seems, it's just made to counter what people usually take.
HQ Flying hive tyrant and Parasite
Elite Dealth leaper if yu want. Hive guard and zonethropes work here. Y.Genestealers are great as they can assault when they pop out of cover at T5 With so many tanks they will have a target, shaken and stunned is just as good as anything else. T Inflitrating genestealers and hide them in cover for troops, and outflanking warriors if you took a HT. FA is what you need, take a Unit of winged warriors a full unit of gargoyles and a harpy. Use the Gargoyles to cover the winged warriors, who in turn cover the hive tyrant and harpy. You'll be fast enough to catch him. stun him and surround him. JotWW can't do much harm, and you can start Multi-charging his army.
Or you can just play lowerpoint games, or bring an army that wreaks his if he is being a git about thinks.
I think people underestimate how much shooting that particular SW list puts out and how hard it actually is to stop it.
You've got 15 units firing at you. All the vehicles will have *at least* a 4+ cover save. It will happily trade two KP's for one the entire game--Because on turn 5/6 you're going to be wiped off the board and it'll still be functional.
No anti-horde? 6 flamers, 3 heavy bolters, 12 frag missiles per turn is some pretty good foot troop killing power.
Lol, ironic I have been playtesting against the very same list. My IG list are usually able to dismantle all of stelek list as every unit is the same and thus have the same weakness and damage output.
The list needs to go first, the way you beat it is try to glance as many vehicles as possible which reduces their shooting, considering its just av 11 its not to hard to do. With destroyed vehicles combined with glancing their fire power will dwindle down to hardly anything after the first 3 turns.
I am a new nids player, proxying against this list I think I have figured out how to beat it with the nids. In objective base missions place the objectives as close as possible to each other usually 12 inches, by doing this all of their vehicles will get in the way of each other limiting their fire lanes and mobility.
That Space Wolf list is a pretty standard mech spam list, and seems a little tailored against Nids as well, which doesn't help much. The amount of firepower they can put out will toast almost anything you can get on foot, except swarms of basic guys, who the Razorbacks don't care about. Tyrannofexes would ordinarily be desirable, but a list like that is one of very few that can actually shoot down Tyrannofexes from range. One good way to fight swarms of vehicles is to try to make them block one another, as CKO said. If you can funnel the enemy tanks into chokepoints you'll be able to diminish their shooting and mobility advantages greatly. Nonetheless, I think this will be an uphill battle for the Tyranids.
Fetterkey wrote:That Space Wolf list is a pretty standard mech spam list, and seems a little tailored against Nids as well, which doesn't help much. The amount of firepower they can put out will toast almost anything you can get on foot, except swarms of basic guys, who the Razorbacks don't care about. Tyrannofexes would ordinarily be desirable, but a list like that is one of very few that can actually shoot down Tyrannofexes from range. One good way to fight swarms of vehicles is to try to make them block one another, as CKO said. If you can funnel the enemy tanks into chokepoints you'll be able to diminish their shooting and mobility advantages greatly. Nonetheless, I think this will be an uphill battle for the Tyranids.
You are correct except it isnt tailored made to beat tyranids it is more like an attempt to beat IG list at their own game. IG shooting is to far superior as multiple chimeras can glance their razorbacks which is huge when your playing the glance game. Also leman russes offer to much of an advantage as they can provide cover for chimeras and soak up lascannon fire.
However it is an up hill battle for nids especially a new nids player, thats the type of fights Kenpachi likes it!
2 Flyrants
3 X 2x zoans in a pod
Warriors, and one terv
3 X harpies
3 x Marloc
5 Flying MCs and 3 pods will kill all the transports they have on the second turn. All the Shadows of the warp will bone the psykers. And the Mawlocs can clean up stray units.
Fetterkey wrote:That Space Wolf list is a pretty standard mech spam list, and seems a little tailored against Nids as well, which doesn't help much. The amount of firepower they can put out will toast almost anything you can get on foot, except swarms of basic guys, who the Razorbacks don't care about. Tyrannofexes would ordinarily be desirable, but a list like that is one of very few that can actually shoot down Tyrannofexes from range. One good way to fight swarms of vehicles is to try to make them block one another, as CKO said. If you can funnel the enemy tanks into chokepoints you'll be able to diminish their shooting and mobility advantages greatly. Nonetheless, I think this will be an uphill battle for the Tyranids.
You are correct except it isnt tailored made to beat tyranids it is more like an attempt to beat IG list at their own game. IG shooting is to far superior as multiple chimeras can glance their razorbacks which is huge when your playing the glance game. Also leman russes offer to much of an advantage as they can provide cover for chimeras and soak up lascannon fire.
However it is an up hill battle for nids especially a new nids player, thats the type of fights Kenpachi likes it!
I consider twin-linked lascannons generally superior to lascannon/plasma gun combos against non-MC targets. The fact that you can only fire one weapon when moving means that the las/plas combo frequently forfeits much of its effectiveness. Though the las/plas Razor has more firepower, especially within twelve inches, it can't move if it wants to use its full power, which makes it much more vulnerable. Against Tyranid MCs, though, the las/plas Razor is certainly superior.
CKO wrote:You are correct except it isnt tailored made to beat tyranids it is more like an attempt to beat IG list at their own game. IG shooting is to far superior as multiple chimeras can glance their razorbacks which is huge when your playing the glance game. Also leman russes offer to much of an advantage as they can provide cover for chimeras and soak up lascannon fire.
Except for the fact that it takes 2 chimeras, on average, to get one glance or penetrating hit on a razorback.
It's going to take more than chimeras to shake enough of those razorbacks to make a huge difference.
If that list goes first, most of your chimeras will be smoking ruins from the lc's and ml's...
I don't think that wolf list will do much good an KP missions or dawn of war set up to be honest. It will pick apart a new nid player but lose to blob and mech IG, mechdar, mech tau, dark eldar lance spam and a host of others. He wrecks the first row of chimerae and the ones behind it get cover from the wreck, hell make him shoot though a line of LRBTs.Flying nids and shooty nids at max range, using other nids as cover. The range of the rupture cannon is 48" there is noway he should be able to hit you with his 24"power unless he has been riding in a rhino for 2 turns, and that's if you don't move your tyranofex back every turn.
imweasel wrote:Except for the fact that it takes 2 chimeras, on average, to get one glance or penetrating hit on a razorback.
It's going to take more than chimeras to shake enough of those razorbacks to make a huge difference.
If that list goes first, most of your chimeras will be smoking ruins from the lc's and ml's...
The first turn is not all that bad, the lascannons are not twin-linked so a 3rd of them are going to miss, then another 3rd will not be able to glance a chimera. The fact that the chimera a transport can glance/pen is an advantage especially if they go after the land speeders, once you factor in vendettas, hydras, leman russes, or manticores the IG list has the upper hand. If the IG list has any infantry with heavy weapons then that list is going down.
Its a stelek list, identify the weakness and understand the damage output of the spammed unit and you can beat it.
CKO wrote:The first turn is not all that bad, the lascannons are not twin-linked so a 3rd of them are going to miss, then another 3rd will not be able to glance a chimera. The fact that the chimera a transport can glance/pen is an advantage especially if they go after the land speeders, once you factor in vendettas, hydras, leman russes, or manticores the IG list has the upper hand. If the IG list has any infantry with heavy weapons then that list is going down.
Of course you are correct, if you are going to ignore the 12 ml's in the list as well.
How many heavy weapon units are you planning on taking?
I never said that this list would make IG mech a cake walk. You are the one saying that IG mech would have no problems with this list with chimeras alone.
CKO wrote:Its a stelek list, identify the weakness and understand the damage output of the spammed unit and you can beat it.
That's true of any list, regardless if it comes from 'someone who shall not be named'. However, making blank statements like you said for dealing with it is...misleading at best.
No what I am saying is that usually chimeras are not very useful but for providing protection and delivering vets. However against this list the chimera has increased value as they can hurt those land speeders and stop razorbacks. I guess what I am saying is that they are an X-factor.
The list is a IG mech list except it has a glass jaw, because the difference between av 12 and 11 is huge.
CKO wrote:No what I am saying is that usually chimeras are not very useful but for providing protection and delivering vets. However against this list the chimera has increased value as they can hurt those land speeders and stop razorbacks. I guess what I am saying is that they are an X-factor.
The list is a IG mech list except it has a glass jaw, because the difference between av 12 and 11 is huge.
If you are taking 6-7 chimeras in a mech IG list, 18-21 bs3 str6 shots are always useful and not an x-factor at all.
I'd say his list is completely unimaginative, but while it's counter to every bit of fluff it's not illegal. Not something I can imagine someone who wants a list that actually fits to the space wolf spirit.
Owain
Jaws was a major factor. Tyranids have 2 defenses vs psykers. Neither which are particularly good vs Jaws.
1. Death Leaper can give 1 Psyker -d3 leadership which is somewhat mediocre since they still can get off powers although at a reduced rate. (especially if you roll a 1 for the d3)
2. Shadows of the Warp only has a 12 inch effectiveness so is ineffective against the 24 inch range Jaws unless you pod Zoanthropes in and then you only come on on turn 2 or later and are vulnerable to assaults or rapid fire.
Clthomp
I do run 6 hive guard they just aren't enough. Unit of 3 hive guard gets 6 shots. on average you hit with 4. You get maybe a glance and 2 pens on a Rhino chassis. Takes an average of 3 pens to get a kill so you might even kill the transport in one round of shooting.
Podding Zoanthropes haven't been very good versus Space Wolves. I tried them in my first list With the 4+ negation of the runic weapon, half of them get blocked out right. The remaining half have to pass a psyker test (33/36), hit (2/3), penetrate (5/6), roll a kill on the damage table (1/2). If your dropping in 12 inches to use Shadows of the Warp on the Rune Priest your Zoanthropes get assaulted next turn and dead soon after.
I am running 2x 30 termagaunts they get killed fast by Grey Hunters with flamers + 3 swings in assault really quick after the Tervigon got jawsed.
Dunno about More lucks (mawlocs) they are pretty random and crappy from what I seen, either do nothing as they scatter off intended target or not do anything with a single Strength 6 shot at hurting a vehicle and then get quickly shot to death unless you reburrow.
Wrexasaur
Nids can take alot of monsterous creatures now. You could have 2 HQ Tyrants/Tervigons , 3 troops Tervigons, 3 fast attack harpies, and 9 heavy support carnifexes for a total of 17 monsterous creature but this is cost prohibitive pointswise and of questionable viability even if you can afford to spend the points.
DarthDiggler
Not taking any low initiative MCs at all is difficult. You want at least 1 Tervigon + 20-30 termagaunts for a resilient troops choice.
I will playtest a kill points mission next time and see how that goes.
Sourclams
The warrior spam sounds like it might work but then again with all those strength 8+ shots that insta kill warriors. Another issue here is I'm trying for an all comers 1850 list not a tooled to beat mech space wolves list and the spam warriors sounds pretty bad versus other tourney lists.
Grundz
If I went 3 squads of hive guard I would have to lose deathleaper. Might do this but against vanilla Marines deathleaper is pretty good versus the Librarians hood and hurts psykers with the -d3 leadership although maybe not enough to be worth his 140 pts.
Why Biovores? They are only strength 4 and do nothing to vehicles.
Badger
How are Lictors, gargoyles, and stealers good vs mech wolves? Assaulting transports doesn't work very well with strength 4. You need a 4 or 6 to hit then Glance on 6s and have to roll damage with -2. Yes Genestealers have rending but still.
CKO
Whats your IG list look like? I play IG also my list looks like this for 1750 http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/270950.page and it has a hard time with mech wolves.
Its now always possible to place the objectives near each other since the opponent places some.
So I thinking of trying something like this now
HQ Tyranid Prime with boneswords goes in Warriors
elite
3 hive guard
3 hive guard
death leaper
troops
30 Termigaunts
pimped out Tervigon
Warriors (how many? what to arm them with? death spitters?)
Warriors
heavy
tyranofex w rupture cannon
tyranofex w rupture cannon
Biovores (how many)
Since a few people are saying to try warriors, I will give them a shot but what should I give them?
I see a problem here is no feel no pain for the second group of hive guard. 2 Tervigons made a very solid troops base but are vulnerable to jaws.
Tyranofexs are init 1 but if I keep them way back and target the runepriest rhino first. Not to sold on Tyranofexes they not reliable at getting vehicle kills but they do a decent job of shaking vehicles like the old gunfexes did at a greater cost with a better chance to kill.
To be honest I'm not very happy with any of the heavies.
The Try Gone pops up and Trys by shoots some strength 5 and stuns a rhino and then gets shot and gone.
The More Luck pops up and probably scatters off its target or is one strength 6 hit on a vehicle unless you are really lucky and then gets shot and gone.
The screamer killer carnifex pods in and either stands around looking dumb as it gets shot to death
The dakka fex pods in stuns or kills a vehicle and then get lit up.
Tyrano fex costs a ton and doesn't get reliable kills with bs3 and only 2 shots. Although is reasonable for keeping predators or vendettas shaken. He also is init 1 so is vulnerable to jaws.
Few people suggested trying biovores. They don't really do much vs mech till you blow up a vehicle but they might be worth trying versus things like Lootas or Space Wolf long fangs on foot with 5 missles.
CKO wrote:
Its a stelek list, identify the weakness and understand the damage output of the spammed unit and you can beat it.
Stupid statement. Show me the all-comers Nids list that can take down Max Overdrive SW with regularity.
I dont have a nids list I just started playing with the nids. My friends play stelek list all the time, the 3 reedemer list, the command bike with storm shields, and this list I have beaten them all. Most of his list spams one unit so if you no its damage output and its weakness you do have a better shot at beating it.
You could also be a better player than your friend.. Skill + list + opponents list = overall effectiveness
I think a TL lascannon razorback spam list would be a bit more productive due to the abiilty to run away and fire better.. and I dont see how this list is *bad* in dawn of war?
If you go first, you move everything on.. okay you cant fire, so what? Your opponent moves everything on and they have night fight
Next turn you get first shooting WITHOUT night fight which is a good thing
Lets say you go second.. You move your rhinos on 12" and lets say they moved some units up 12" which means your rhinos are in DECENT range to search light *something* which lets your razorbacks (because you took TL lascannons) open up with crazy firepower
JoWW is the best anti-nid power in the game, bar none. Essentially theres no real sure fire way for nids to beat that list, only lucky rolls when he jaws you, and pop the transports quickly to allow yourself to swarm in. That list is tough, period.
I noticed that someone discounted 'stealers as effective armor cracking troops. However, my playtesting so far, has indicated that outflanking genestealers(broods of 7-10) are able to av 10-13 very reliably. That is unupgraded. Give them glands and it gets even better. Ivle honestly had a lot of success so far using venomthropes to mitigate that type of list's shooting. ( along with screens of gaunts etc.
I was able to beat the list today with nids! I was able to destroy the speeders early with hive guard and my swarm of super gaunts was to much to handle for his small units once the razorbacks were destroyed. I claim 1 objective and contested the other to.
I was able to glance enough vehicles with venom cannons and hive guard which reduced the damage done by the razorbacks, which is the way you should attack this list.
CKO wrote:I was able to beat the list today with nids! I was able to destroy the speeders early with hive guard and my swarm of super gaunts was to much to handle for his small units once the razorbacks were destroyed. I claim 1 objective and contested the other to.
I was able to glance enough vehicles with venom cannons and hive guard which reduced the damage done by the razorbacks, which is the way you should attack this list.
How in the world do you destroy 48" range speeders "early" with 24" range weapons without your opponent helping you is beyond me.
So you were able to shoot the speeders and the razorbacks simultaneously with the hive guard. Interesting.
CKO wrote:I was able to beat the list today with nids! I was able to destroy the speeders early with hive guard and my swarm of super gaunts was to much to handle for his small units once the razorbacks were destroyed. I claim 1 objective and contested the other to.
I was able to glance enough vehicles with venom cannons and hive guard which reduced the damage done by the razorbacks, which is the way you should attack this list.
How in the world do you destroy 48" range speeders "early" with 24" range weapons without your opponent helping you is beyond me.
So you were able to shoot the speeders and the razorbacks simultaneously with the hive guard. Interesting.
I will clarify a comment someone made.
"You beat a bad player, not the list."
jealous, do you guys believe av 11 and av 10 is hard to pen when your using str 8-9 ranged weapons.
CKO wrote: jealous, do you guys believe av 11 and av 10 is hard to pen when your using str 8-9 ranged weapons.
When the vast majority of your guns are str 8 and 24" range and the av 10 and 11 are 48"?
Ya. It's very hard. Especially getting that done 'early'.
No, I am not even close to being jealous, unless it's racking up a kill vs someone that has limited skill playing 40k.
"He who shall not be named" lists are not for unskilled players. The 'list' has as many if not more str 7+ ap2 weapons than your list has, if the list you are using is a variation of your 1750 list.
One word corner deployment, with terrain your choices are limited, if you want to have line of sight. With that list your not worried about protecting the razorbacks, as you simply rely on your numbers.
Considering the guy taught me how to play the game, I wouldnt consider him unskilled.
The list has a glass jaw, do you not understand av 11-10, this is not IG where your spaming av 12.
The point they're making is you shouldn't have been able to kill the landspeeders so quickly as a good player will keep them away from you, zoom infront/next to your hive guard and kill you with them next turn. But then later on you said "corner deployment" a little too late.
I agree with Iron and imweasel that you beat a bad player, that list is very good and hard to beat with any list.
I searched on Stelek's blog and couldn't find that list, anyone mind linking it please?
No. Actually, unless you have pictures of you, your 'duff' friend and the two armies you mentioned and write a proper report, I don't believe you played against anyone at all. Like people said, you either beat an unbelievably poor player, or you didn't even play.
Nurglitch wrote:I find the people surmising that CKO beat a bad player to be hilarious. "Well, the list is perfect, so it must have been the player!"
I think a battle report is in order, with photos.
Either the dice were bad or the player was bad. It's not that we're saying it was impossible, just incredibly unlikely to destroy all the cars in less than 2 turns.
Yeah, I'm similarly unimpressed with the insistence that no one can win against this army, and that anyone who has done so is a liar or {insert list of hypothesized excuses}.
Mind you, the most common reply to an application of tactics on this board is "A good player wouldn't let you do that..." as if even the best players always got to decide between good and bad decisions, rather than playing resources off against time.
Either the dice were bad or the player was bad. It's not that we're saying it was impossible, just incredibly unlikely to destroy all the cars in less than 2 turns.
2 rounds? Where did he say this?
And every Speeder, Razor which went down gave him more room to maneuver his army...
I think he actually play the game. Most of the people talk much more instead of playing the game actually.
Looking at that SW firepower output, I'd likely FNP the tervigons. Once I got to midfield, i'd park the venomthropes and warrior and just got to ground, I'd imagine it would be nearly impossible for the SW player to actually kill any termagants. So they'd have to get really good at tank shock objective block. So you are facing down 5-6 lascannon hits and 8 missile hits. the missiles probably take out one or two hive guard, because it would be unwise to shoot into a 5+ cover FNP tervigon, the 5 lascannon hits take around 3 wounds off of a t-fex.
So I may have only lost one hive guard on the first round. I get three pens on troop razorbacks from hive guard, and my t-fexes each pen a speeder in response. If I got to go first, then we get to apply these results before the super fragile shooting core of the wolves gets to fire...
I won't go any farther than that on calculations. There are quite a few x-factors, like the jaws moving around, and especially what the mission parameters are. But I'd have some confidence that in order for the space wolves to actually score an objective and not get shredded by supergants, they are going to ave to kill tervigons. And If they do that, then no one is killing the hive guard and t-fexes, which will mean something else....
If I can get an opponent to proxy play that game, i will play it and batrep it. That list has always been really dependent on going first when facing off against an even marginally shooty opponent.
I'll even throw another nid list out there that I am working on. it isn't polished at al yet, but the concept is to field nothing but models that hit on turn 2, and can take out vehicles. the super simple version is something like this...
Obviously needs to be tightened up and focused, but I really put this together to fight my ultra shooty IG list (which has more survivable vehicles and is shootier than the SW list) The concept is that every unit is on table, and every unit will likely wreck a vehicle that didn't move cruising speed.
I start with the ability to kill 11 vehicles on turn 2. And you are going to get either one or two shooting phases to make that less. You can probably kill all 9 zoanthropes... but you are still out around 8 vehicles. Alternately, you could start immediately working on removing scoring units, but then are open to a zoanthrope shot, genestealer charge... one-two-punch.
Again this is just an untested idea.... but it is certainly a list capable of inflicting mass carnage to lightly armored vehicle spam. And if you have any intention of remaining stationary to shoot that plasma gun, then those genestealers are virtually guaranteed a wrecked result.
Again, if I can, I would love to test this list concept against the space wolf concept.
Haven't been able to set up a rematch with Avariel yet but with snow likely this weekend the game will probably take place on Vassal 40k instead of RL and I'll take screen captures after every turn and write a full battle report.
Lunchmoney
Its not that Stealers can't kill transports stealers can but if your trading 100+ points of stealers for a 75 pt Razor back or 35 pt Rhino and then the marines inside kill your stealers with their flamer and bolters its not a good trade. Stealers must make up their points in the turn they come in because after that they just get shot to death.
CKO
What nid list did you beat mech space wolves with? Very interested in this. Heavy Venom cannons have been really bad for me they scatter of alot and fail to get a kill if they hit.
AV10/11 maybe not that hard to damage but its not that easy to actually get a kill on. I shoot 3 Hive Guard at a Rhino. I get 6 shots. I hit with 4. Strength 8 I can expect to penetrate with 2. Statistically this does not guarantee me a kill since I only get a kill 1/3 of the time and Statisically 3 penetrates get a kill.
Shep
Your list is almost identical to what my group is testing.
We thinking of putting the Hive Tyrant back for the WS1 to make our gaunts really super but he costs so much points when you factor in guards and isn't that survivable.
How are the Venomthropes? I have deathleaper in that slot instead. Maybe its worth trying Venom thropes for the custom forcefield.
I haven't been that impressed with T-fex. He costs so much and doesn't do enough for his huge points cost. Yes he can shake vehicles at 48 but sometimes he epically fails and misses twice and he doesn't get enough vehicle kills fast enough to make up his huge points sink. T-fex might be next up on the chopping block.
Do you play on Vassal 40k? If so maybe we can do some playtesting online I'll play my latest guard test list vs your nids or I can play nids and you can play guard.
You can also PM Avariel to see if you can get vassal 40k game with her. She's testing space wolf lists for a GT at the end of the month.
I have yet to lose at 1500 points against SW (played them three times) even having to deal with JotWW. I might be lucky with my dice rolls though. I'm playing tghis list which was honed for any mech list but also can at least compete with hordes.
I'm a decent player but I'm not a tactical genius. I understand how to best utilize my troops though and four Venom Cannons backed by four Hive Guard will leave some exposed troops on foot.
The key is getting enough attempts to spawn your termagants and rippers. Once these start to flood the board it becomes very hard for your opponent to adjust.
If I played at 1750 I would simply add another Tervigon and at 2000 a Mawloc and more Hive Guard. At this point I simply do not have the models -
Fetterkey wrote:I can't believe you guys have such faith in a gimmick army list that you insist someone must be a liar when he claims to have beaten it.
When someone is telling me he can 'early kill' av 10 and 11 armed with 48" guns using 24" guns, then ya, I am going to question any of his 'claims'.
Even if he went first, assuming his opponent wasn't a dill weed, he would need to kill all three of the speeders on turn 2 with hive guard.
Then somehow, during all of this, he manages to shake 'most' of eleven separate heavy weapon units.
And corner deployment would work against a shooty nid list, unless his opponent was going first and deployed first. Meaning his opponent would get to light him up with 12 ml's and 8 lc's first.
Razorbacks are IN. I reaccessed my 1500/2000 pt lists a few months ago realizing that effective high rate of fire will be a necessity against these newer codices. SW can do it better than any other marine list with the three man wolf guard squads. Min-maxed to the hilt with landspeeders. this WILL be the new space marine meta.
Killing a speeder with a unit of Hive Guard is not difficult. In fact, you should probably kill or neutralize a speeder with one round of shooting from a unit of three Hive Guard. Ordinarily, Typhoon speeders have great standoff potential that prevents their weak armor from being a key factor, but against units like Hive Guard who can deploy out of LoS and still attack, they have to maneuver forward on tables with sufficient terrain in order to engage effectively, bringing them closer to the enemy and into the Hive Guard's lethal range.
Another thing to consider is that that Space Wolf list has enough Razorbacks that they will get in one another's way, and many sport the inefficient Stronos-pattern (las/plas) combination to boot. On paper, Stronos Razorbacks seem great, but when you put them to the test, they turn out to be much worse than expected, thanks largely to their comparative lack of mobility. Not being able to move and fire both weapons really hampers the effectiveness of a combination like that. Every turn you fire your lascannon by itself is a turn where a standard twin-lascannon Razorback would have outperformed the Stronos-pattern. Further, Razorbacks are likely to spend many turns moving 6" and firing, and the twin-linked lascannon is almost always better than the Stronos when it comes to that job.
Fetterkey wrote:Killing a speeder with a unit of Hive Guard is not difficult. In fact, you should probably kill or neutralize a speeder with one round of shooting from a unit of three Hive Guard. Ordinarily, Typhoon speeders have great standoff potential that prevents their weak armor from being a key factor, but against units like Hive Guard who can deploy out of LoS and still attack, they have to maneuver forward on tables with sufficient terrain in order to engage effectively, bringing them closer to the enemy and into the Hive Guard's lethal range.
Everybody who's going understands that Hive Guard should be able to WTFPWN Speeders if they're in range. Getting Hive Guard into range on T1-2, even with Spearhead deployment, is a problem.
I dont know why some of you act as if I have accomplished something by beating a space wolf list thats trying to be an IG list.
He deployed his land speeders right behind his razorbacks in the spear head mission. With terrain and his razorbacks it would have been difficult for him to draw line of sight, and he also uses the heavy bolters. I admit it was a mistake, but this is the first time against the list that I targeted them first.
Land Raider Redemeer MultiMelta
Land Raider Redemeer MultiMelta
Land Raider Redemeer MultiMelta
The list is killer if you know how to play the range game. The Rune Priests will decimate Tervigons and Carnifexes obviously. The multi-meltas will deal with the rest of the MCs and falmers will stop the hordes.
Fetterkey wrote:
Another thing to consider is that that Space Wolf list has enough Razorbacks that they will get in one another's way, and many sport the inefficient Stronos-pattern (las/plas) combination to boot. On paper, Stronos Razorbacks seem great, but when you put them to the test, they turn out to be much worse than expected, thanks largely to their comparative lack of mobility. Not being able to move and fire both weapons really hampers the effectiveness of a combination like that. Every turn you fire your lascannon by itself is a turn where a standard twin-lascannon Razorback would have outperformed the Stronos-pattern. Further, Razorbacks are likely to spend many turns moving 6" and firing, and the twin-linked lascannon is almost always better than the Stronos when it comes to that job.
The las/plas are not expected to do long range better than twin linked las. They are also not expected to stand still and fire all weapons. In fact no transport should ever stand still against nids since they will be hit automatically in CC which is where Nids excel. Las/plas razorbacks are expected to drill holes at both long and short range. considering the sheer number of heavy weapons and the in-your-face-by-t2 nature of nids, the las/plas seems really practical and versitile IN THIS LIST. Obviously it is working because list has made it around about three 40K forums already. it is being touted as the new leaf blower list. Unless you have tried the list I wouldn't put it down so decisively.
I am curious which is better against all comers however, the las/plas or twin linked Ass. Cannon? I understand the 24 inch range is a problem but most marines players attempt to dominate mid board anyway. In this common circumstance the 24 inch range is much less of an obstacle.
Land Raider Redemeer MultiMelta
Land Raider Redemeer MultiMelta
Land Raider Redemeer MultiMelta
The list is killer if you know how to play the range game. The Rune Priests will decimate Tervigons and Carnifexes obviously. The multi-meltas will deal with the rest of the MCs and falmers will stop the hordes.
With the amount of melta weapons in transports or fast attack choices how does this list stand a chance against the current metagame. I mean against nids its a problem but everything else should smoke it.
Deuce11 wrote:I am curious which is better against all comers however, the las/plas or twin linked Ass. Cannon? I understand the 24 inch range is a problem but most marines players attempt to dominate mid board anyway. In this common circumstance the 24 inch range is much less of an obstacle.
You need the las/plas. It's an alpha strike list. Not having anything to shoot at til turn 2-3 is not viable with a glass sledgehammer like MaxOD. Similarly AssCans aren't going to be hugely effective at stopping 2+ armor units.
The grace of the Las/Plas razorback is that you're damned if you do and damned if you don't; you don't really want to sit at 30 inches trading shots with all the heavy weapons. You'll almost undoubtedly get plinked faster than you're plinking with the sole exception of mech IG. If you rumble closer, however, you put yourself within range of even more weapons.
Yes, a Mech IG AV12 wall can do what this list does and be more survivable. But to discount MaxOD as anything but a monstrously competitive list (with a $700 price tag) is simply sticking your head in the sand.
sourclams wrote:
You need the las/plas. It's an alpha strike list. Not having anything to shoot at til turn 2-3 is not viable with a glass sledgehammer like MaxOD. Similarly AssCans aren't going to be hugely effective at stopping 2+ armor units.
The grace of the Las/Plas razorback is that you're damned if you do and damned if you don't; you don't really want to sit at 30 inches trading shots with all the heavy weapons. You'll almost undoubtedly get plinked faster than you're plinking with the sole exception of mech IG. If you rumble closer, however, you put yourself within range of even more weapons.
Yes, a Mech IG AV12 wall can do what this list does and be more survivable. But to discount MaxOD as anything but a monstrously competitive list (with a $700 price tag) is simply sticking your head in the sand.
(which has more survivable vehicles and is shootier than the SW list)
We had 48 heavy/special weapons all at BS4 in the 2K SW list. Since everyone are claiming the IG are outright more competitive in the shooting mech game, I'm curious how many heavy/special weapons does your list have at 2K points then?
CKO wrote:Why do people say the list has blah blah number of weapons? Its simple av 11 vs 12.
Of course it isn't. If it's 6x AV 11 3x AV 12 3x AV 13 and 3x AV 10 on one side for example it gets a little more complicated than that. Actually, the majority of vehicles is something else than AV11 in that list with 48 guns. Secondly, I can't really see how the amount and quality of guns could possibly ever be irrelevant when comparing two army lists that play the same way. If the IG can't even match the amount of guns it's apparent that once you factor in one or two Jaws per turn and the rune weapon bubbles the SW are stronger than IG when playing against Tyranids, which is what this discussion is about. I've only asked you to back your statements up. People are all about wild claims and accusations these days.
Deuce11 wrote:The las/plas are not expected to do long range better than twin linked las. They are also not expected to stand still and fire all weapons. In fact no transport should ever stand still against nids since they will be hit automatically in CC which is where Nids excel. Las/plas razorbacks are expected to drill holes at both long and short range. considering the sheer number of heavy weapons and the in-your-face-by-t2 nature of nids, the las/plas seems really practical and versitile IN THIS LIST.
The only time where the twin-linked plasma gun is going to perform better than the twin-linked lascannon against Tyranids (read: Toughness 6-) is when the target is within 12 inches, at which point you are vulnerable to all kinds of enemy assault elements and may want to be moving at cruising speed to avoid death. Further, as the enemy closes, the odds of being glanced and unable to fire grow significantly higher. As you say, you can't really expect to stand still and fire all weapons, especially not against Tyranids-- this makes the Stronos-pattern Razorback significantly less effective. In point of fact, though, you can't really expect to stand still and fire all weapons against almost any serious opponent. Further, against enemies with significant long-range firepower, the las/plas configuration obviously falters in comparison to the twin-linked lascannon turret.
Deuce11 wrote:Obviously it is working because list has made it around about three 40K forums already. it is being touted as the new leaf blower list. Unless you have tried the list I wouldn't put it down so decisively.
The fact that something is popular online doesn't make it good. I have tested many different Razorback configurations and the Stronos-pattern is far worse than one might expect. If I were taking a Razorback spam list, I would take twin-linked lascannons over lasplas. While the assault cannon option is certainly interesting, assault cannons suffer greatly from their 24" range. You really need that turn 1 barrage in order to survive with a list like this, so the asscannons aren't going to cut it.
Its very simple what do IG list have multi-lasers, twin-linked lascannons, autocannons, battlecannons.
All IG list have to do to beat this list is deploy their infantry squads outside the chimera and now each chimera has double their fire power. Now we have 20+ separate units that can penetrate or glance your av 11 or 10. Know do you see the disadvantage!
Therion wrote:We had 48 heavy/special weapons all at BS4 in the 2K SW list. Since everyone are claiming the IG are outright more competitive in the shooting mech game, I'm curious how many heavy/special weapons does your list have at 2K points then?
Well just throwing together a 2000 point list
3 x Vet squad las cannon 3 melta
chimera multi laser/heavy bolter or heavy flamer - 18 heavy/special
6 (3x2) vendetta 3 twin linked las cannon 2 heavy bolter - 30 heavy/special
6 (3x2) hydra flak tanks 2 twin linked auto cannons and a heavy bolter each - 18 heavy/special
1 company command squad las cannon 2 plasma guns
chimera multi laser/heavy bolter or heavy flamer - 5 heavy/special
Total 71 heavy/special weapons
30 twin-linked BS 3
15 BS 4
26 BS 3
This is in no way an optimized list, I am just throwing this out there so you can get a sense of how shooty mech guard can be.
If I knew I was fighting that space wolf list I would take 3 groups of 3 leman russ exterminators. Missile launcher meet av14 the bane of your existance
Oh and in response to the 48 HEAVY WEAPONS! OMGWTFBBQ! of the space wolf list. I will have to quote gone with the wind "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn"
Oh and in response to the 48 HEAVY WEAPONS! OMGWTFBBQ! of the space wolf list. I will have to quote gone with the wind "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn"
You might not give a damn, but considering the list you're talking about has five drop pod alpha strike meltaguns your Exterminators might. Your list will have 2 or 3 of them total.
This is in no way an optimized list, I am just throwing this out there so you can get a sense of how shooty mech guard can be.
Indeed. I'm sure one of you all star IG players has to have a real tournament list hanging around somewhere? I don't understand what's so difficult in posting an army list after making extraordinary claims about wiping the floor with enemies that are known to be challenging.
That list isn't legal Felixcat. The Rune Priests need to split their powers, which is probably what your friends are doing.
Yep. One has MH not Lightning. Sorry. And that is how I remember the list - I don't play it myself - who has that many Redeemers, lol.
With the amount of melta weapons in transports or fast attack choices how does this list stand a chance against the current metagame. I mean against nids its a problem but everything else should smoke it.
Nonsense. Sure there are lists that can beat it. But it plays well against most. Our game has become a rock/paper/scissors environment. The SW list ois one that truly plays well against most of the field but that is an exception. Most lists will have a bad match up - balanced or not. Remember the list is a 1500 list ... at 2000 points expect TH/ss terminators, TWC, etc. to be added.
I'm lost here, how did beating Mech Space Wolves with New Nids morph into who is fiercer, the IG or the SW in a mid range mech shooting match? Where did the minutia of what a razorback should be equipped with come from? Nids don't have razorbacks.
I'm with Shep on this one. I think the Nids can handle Mech SW (or Mech anybody else, for that matter) a reasonable percentage of the time. I'd try a very different list (Ymgari stealers, raveners, Trygons and Lictors). Wolves hate handling hordes, especially hordes with fighting units that make a mockery of them.
You might not give a damn, but considering the list you're talking about has five drop pod alpha strike meltaguns your Exterminators might. Your list will have 2 or 3 of them total.
I didnn't see any drop pods in the original SW list just lots of razorbacks
Therion wrote:Indeed. I'm sure one of you all star IG players has to have a real tournament list hanging around somewhere? I don't understand what's so difficult in posting an army list after making extraordinary claims about wiping the floor with enemies that are known to be challenging.
Not sure I like the tone of this request... but in the spirit of the thread, here is a 2k IG list that I am going to tune up to play in some 2k vegas qualifiers....
CCS x4 melta astropath chimera heavy flamer
PBS x8 chimera heavy flamer
PCS x4 flamer chimera heavy flamer
infantry squad autocannon chimera heavy flamer
infantry squad autocannon chimera heavy flamer
HWS autocannons
HWS autocannons
veterans x3 meltas chimera heavy flamer
2x vendettas with heavy bolter
2x vendettas with heavy bolter
vendetta with heavy bolter
manticore
manticore
61 heavy/special weapons.... 15 twin linked, 6 of them potentially twin linked, 8 of them BS4.....
And the whole thing is armor 12. Its also MUCH better at handling horde armies, and much better at handling dual land raider. Oh and I have an astropath if the space wolves get first turn. Even using Adepticon rules, you won't have any vendettas or manticores to shoot at. If we aren't playing with adepticon rules, well you aren't getting first turn.
Sourclams said it best.... You can and should certainly respect maximum overdrive as a "hard" list. That doesn't mean it is shootier than IG, or even the most competitive way to run space wolves.
When i posted those nid lists earlier in the thread, I wasn't saying "here are some nid lists that will win 100% of the time." What I was saying was "Here are some take all comer nid lists that probably have enough gas to split their games against a space wolf list like that one."
What I hate most about a glass hammer list like maximum overdirve, is against so many armies it really comes down to whether or not you won first turn. trusting tourney success to a coin toss doens't seem all that smart to me... unless you don't have any faith in your generalship.
Assuming Doom works on embarked units, then simply drop him (via spore) near the clumped up rhinos/razors and watch them die. Although not a complete win on his own, he will certainly make mince wolf of those small units with 8 LD, and will give the SW player something to think about as the rest of your forces move in.
The doom working on embarked units is going to be a hard sell at tournaments unless it is faq'ed
@Therion
Please post the space wolf list you are talking about as it is different from the one posted in this thread.
Therion wrote:Indeed. I'm sure one of you all star IG players has to have a real tournament list hanging around somewhere? I don't understand what's so difficult in posting an army list after making extraordinary claims about wiping the floor with enemies that are known to be challenging.
While there was some hyperbole (IG shooting is far superior) in discussing the IG shooty lists, you have greatly exaggerated the claims made about IG.
I do believe that a shooty mech IG list will beat a shooty mech SW list more often than not.
That doesn't mean it is shootier than IG, or even the most competitive way to run space wolves.
While discussing SW and IG, we can also turn this back to Tyranids. Firstly, what do you think is 'the most competitive way to run Space Wolves'? Naturally this means that it has a better chance of beating both IG and Tyranids than the lasback version. Take no offence, I'm honestly very curious to what you're thinking, and how the Tyranids would in turn have to respond. A friend of mine is building a Tyranid army as we speak based on yours and some other Dakka posters' opinions on them. I have a SM army myself.
I've also noticed that the Tyranid lists atleast seem to be significantly 'weaker' at 1500 points than at 1750 and 1850 points. It looks like it's quite challenging to squeeze in all the necessary stuff at lower points limits to build a good all-around force with no hard counters.
And the whole thing is armor 12. Its also MUCH better at handling horde armies, and much better at handling dual land raider. Oh and I have an astropath if the space wolves get first turn. Even using Adepticon rules, you won't have any vendettas or manticores to shoot at. If we aren't playing with adepticon rules, well you aren't getting first turn.
What adepticon rules are you refering to? I didnt see anything in the packet that had to do with this...
Therion wrote:Firstly, what do you think is 'the most competitive way to run Space Wolves'? Naturally this means that it has a better chance of beating both IG and Tyranids than the lasback version.
Well, my nid list that has been the most consistently successful so far (I'm by no means done figuring this book out, there are tons of untested unit combinations, and I haven't even played against other poplar armies like eldar yet) has been a slow moving, uber-resilient, mostly shooty tervigon/t-fex/hive guard set up. Things that ruin me that space wolves have access to are...
#1 rune priests... even without jaws, a combination of murderous hurricane and the rune weapon would put this unit as my public enemy number 1. If the guy hates nids and takes jaws, then its even worse.
#2 land raiders... i just have two t-fexes to stop land raiders, and full spreads from LRCs into termagants hurt, especially when you are lobbing your multi-melta shot into nearby tervigons or t-fexes.
#3 good assault units... step one open charge lane to tervigon with shooting, step two charge tervigon, step three shake nid players hand
#4 9-10 man grey hunter units... When i was experimenting with genestealers, this was the unit that ruined them. get out and bolter drill, use the rhino chassis to spoil a termagant charge so that they won't get that many models engaged if they charge, pass counter-assault, enjoy mark of wulfen, win combat, crumble gants... that opened up a charge lane for TWC to hit tervigon.
So my "horde" nid army pretty much fears SW most when you crash one termagant screen out of two. Break it open with shooting, sidestep the screen and deliver a CC master into my t-fexes or tervigons. The tervigon will explode over half of the newly born termagants, and those termagants that survive that aren't close enough to the other tervigon just went from a good troop unit to grots.
With my IG army, I tend to split games against space wolf armies that have a core "kill element" and then support the hell out of it with missiles. That core kill can be wolf guard in drop pods, wolf guard in land raiders, or thunderwolf cav with fenrisian screens (or storm cover). When i was running more plasma vets I could clear out TWC pretty well, but nowadays i have more meltas, autocannons and lasguns, which TWC tend to laugh off. Suppress vendettas with long fangs or draw vendetta fire with long fangs, and get those TWC as close to me as possible to minimize the damage my manticores can do to them. TWC don't really seem to have a problem killing my tanks, because I'm usually just moving 6".
I have found nid MCs like trygons pretty easy to kill off with IG shooting, but the pure speed and number of T5 wounds on TWC make them a lot more survivable, And they have that strength 5, that high volume of attacks, and that thunderhammer for my tanks. grey hunters tend to not be a factor in my IG games versus SW, but they have that scoring role to fall back on.
Therion wrote: Take no offence, I'm honestly very curious to what you're thinking, and how the Tyranids would in turn have to respond. A friend of mine is building a Tyranid army as we speak based on yours and some other Dakka posters' opinions on them.
Well, I think you and i briefly talked about my shooty/resilient nid list needing a deathstar. Or at least a high initiative hard hitting counter-cc unit. Pure CC armies i can handle with gant screens. When an army can't dictate what units it plans to charge, like a mono-red demon list, then i can keep my tervigons safe, and just grind out a unit with gants. But when good quick tough CC units are backed up by enough shooting to clear 25-30 cover-save gants over two turns, then my plans seem to fall apart almost instantaneously. more gants certainly isn't the answer, i think a scary CC unit might be. Swarmlord is fantastic, and a bargain at 280... but that leads me to your next comment.
Therion wrote:I've also noticed that the Tyranid lists atleast seem to be significantly 'weaker' at 1500 points than at 1750 and 1850 points. It looks like it's quite challenging to squeeze in all the necessary stuff at lower points limits to build a good all-around force with no hard counters.
Spot on. i actually didn't figure this out until very recently. Thankfully, the next couple of tourney qualifiers are at 2k, because at 1750, I was really hamstrung on taking any kind of mycetic spore based army, or even including a hard CC element to my zombie army. I haven't played around with 1500, but even just thinking about it right now is making me laugh. Cut venomthropes, cut MCs, i think at 1500 if you want to be serious you are stuck with stealer shock, zoanthropes and raveners. At 2k, i can get that critical target saturation with these expensive units (seems like everything worth having in a reserve list costs around 200-280).
I'm playing a 2k nid game tonight against orks, and I REALLY feel like I get way more out of that 250 point increase than my ork opponent. Still have no idea how I'm going to us those points. I better start working on that...
Therion wrote:I have a SM army myself.
A couple podding ironclads and a land raider full of terminators just bend horde nids over so hard its not even funny. Make sure you have some blank pods for when you are fighting someone who is going to reserve out on you... but turn 2 charge on termagant screens by ironclads, opens up turn three charges on pretty much any MC you want with your termies. With my particular nid list, I would take on a space wolf army any day instead of this...
librarian
6x terminators in LRC ironclad heavy flamer pod
ironclad heavy flamer pod
10x tactical flamer missile rhino dozer
10x tactical flamer missile rhino dozer
2x attack bikes multi-meltas
thunderfire cannon pod
thunderfire cannon pod
i suppose if I had 6+ zoanthropes I'd be slightly less hard pressed, but then I'm contesting against that hood.
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cypher wrote:What adepticon rules are you refering to? I didnt see anything in the packet that had to do with this...
Under adepticon rules, astropaths (for some undisclosed reason) must actually be on the table for their +1 reserves rule to be in effect.
With my listed army, if I were playing at an adpeticon tourney and lost first turn to a glass hammer, i would reserve my vendettas, manticores, and PBS, probably leaving all of the troops and the CCS on table. Then on turn 2 I'd be able to roll 3+s for my own glass hammers to arrive.
Without adepticon rules in place, my astropath works just by being included in my army. If i lost first turn i would hold my entire army in reserve, and my entire army (except for the infantry squad autocannons and HWS autocannons) can move and shoot. So 2/3s of my army shows up on the bottom of turn 2, and gets to "fire first".
I'm playing a 2k nid game tonight against orks, and I REALLY feel like I get way more out of that 250 point increase than my ork opponent. Still have no idea how I'm going to us those points. I better start working on that...
Any chance for a battle report? Sounds like a fun matchup, and I haven't heard (or I don't remember it anyway) much about Nids vs Orks in these threads.
number9dream wrote:Any chance for a battle report? Sounds like a fun matchup, and I haven't heard (or I don't remember it anyway) much about Nids vs Orks in these threads.
Well I had my rematch with Avariel with Mech Spave Wolves last night on Vassal.
Will upload the screenshots to my photobucket and write a full report if I have time later.
Mission was Kill Points with Pitched Battle Deployment. For sake of me not getting owned she took Murderous Huricane and Tempests Wrath for powers and NO JAWS. This is the config she was using before the new Tyranid book came out.
I got a win it wasn't even close.
I went first and deployed in the middle with gaunts in front, hive guard in a row behind that and then the 2 tervigons and the hive tyrant in a row behind the hive guard, tyranofexs were on the left and right.
Avariel deploys to one flank but I can still get range.
Big decision here right off that bat was what to FNP. Keeping Hive Guard around with FNP would be good but I FNP the tervigons themselves as everything fell apart when they got jaws in previous matches.
First turn I move everything on up, running the gaunts and take my shots. Killing 1 razor back and 1 rhino with 2 long fangs in it so they get to shoot and shaking another razorback and my normally useless tyrants strangler going wide right into a speeder which explodes. Last t-fex needed to go back to the target range as he missed twice.
With good coversaves I didn't even lose a unit of hive guard from Avariel's shooting. I FNP the gaunts and 1 gets blocked by rune priest. The down to 1 hive guard manages to shake a razor yay and I kill a razorback with the full strength hive guard and a t-fex pops a speeder and the second one misses twice again man he really needs to go to the shooting range.
Last hive guard pops and my gaunts without fnp get burned assaulted and dead.
I make gaunts for the first time and assault with super gaunts on my next turn and am way ahead in kill points at this point so I'll save the rest for my full report.
First turn and being in range really helps. Having some good rolls early helped too. No Jaws also was huge. Match up is totally winable with no jaws. Avariel was saying after the game she should have reserved everything like she does with IG if not getting the first turn but wolves don't get a +1 from astropath to reserves so I think that might be iffy but we might play a game with her reserving it all later.
Nice... the max overdrive not being as good without first turn isn't a surprise to me.
I think if she reserves out on you, that gives you chance to get a LOT closer to her deployment zone. maybe by the time some of the SW stuff is arriving you are declaring charges against razorbacks instead of just shooting at them.
Thanks for sharing this SW experience with us. Marines in general seem pretty tough for nids... wolves in particular are even more difficult than the others. Its good to hear this stuff.
number9dream wrote:Any chance for a battle report? Sounds like a fun matchup, and I haven't heard (or I don't remember it anyway) much about Nids vs Orks in these threads.
The moral of this story so far is that Jaws of the Warpwolf is the Tyranid Kryptonite since most lists are basing their troops of initiative 1 tervigons and that without it wolves can be beat.
Big unit of complex thunder wolves with stormshields and the warriorborn lord who gets more attacks for killing things is pretty ridiculous as well but also insanely expensive.
I'll have to wait awhile for more testing vs wolves as I'm testing my 1850 guard list for a GT at the end of the month. These games where to help my friend finalize her GT list also. I really hope she goes with the Thunder kitty list rather then max overdrive as the Thunder kitties on white lions look amazing.
Honestly I don't really see that list being able to take down something like 180 gaunts with 9 zoanthropes and a couple tervigons.
How many points is this, anyway?
Regardless, 4 zoanthropes isn't the way to go. Take 9. That's a lot harder to deal with. I'm sorry you rolled a lot of 1's and 2's, but honestly 8 lascannons and 12 missle launchers would statistically kill.... about 4 a turn, and if that's all they're killing then the rest of your army's on them pretty quick, and you didn't put that much commitment into that really.
Nurglitch
Trying to make an all comers list here that has some game vs mech wolves not tailor a hate list. A big problem with 180 gaunts + tervigon spawns is having enough time at the tournament to move them all.
Kirika wrote:Nurglitch
Trying to make an all comers list here that has some game vs mech wolves not tailor a hate list. A big problem with 180 gaunts + tervigon spawns is having enough time at the tournament to move them all.
Spellbound
Game was 1850 pts.
With that simplified Army you have enough time to move. Go forward, end of story.
Its not comparable to Mass Orcs or Imps. It ist not crucial how you move your Gants.
I thought Spellbound had asked how many points that two Tervigons, nine Zoanthropes, and one hundred and eighty Termagants was. As for a generalized list to take out the so-called "over-drive" list, I think there's plenty of those.
I actually doubt that list could take down MaxOD. The Gants can't do much of anything worth a damn to vehicles and Zoeys are going to take a minimum of 2 turns to even get into useful shooting range... 50% of which may be nullified. Las and Krak can instant death Zoeys before moving on to Tervigons.
Then when you add in problems with synapse I don't think this is very viable at all.
Change the Termagants to Hormagaunts and it has a much better chance, but I think playstyle will still dictate the winner there, not rock-paper-scissors like, say, Vulkan vs Green Tide.
first, Isn't JotWW a shooting psyker power? Most of these rune priests on lists I see appear to have two shooting powers (like LL/JotWW). I know they can be upgraded to use two powers a turn, but I thought you could still only use one shooting power, unless you could normally fire two weapons (Like a MC).
second, where are these max ODSW lists at? I think playing against that list as Tau would be rather hilarious.
Kroot Loops wrote:
second, where are these max ODSW lists at? I think playing against that list as Tau would be rather hilarious.
They're on Stelek's blog www.yesthetruthhurts.com
Against Tau, since you can't outshoot them, you just line up and rhino rush them (razor rush?). Even normal marines can take down swaths of Tau suits in HtH, so space wolves even more so with their double attacks. Plus you need to be close to overcome the disruption pods anyway, so you're on top of them by turn 2-3 and then it's just mop-up.
Kroot Loops wrote:
second, where are these max ODSW lists at? I think playing against that list as Tau would be rather hilarious.
They're on Stelek's blog www.yesthetruthhurts.com
Against Tau, since you can't outshoot them, you just line up and rhino rush them (razor rush?). Even normal marines can take down swaths of Tau suits in HtH, so space wolves even more so with their double attacks. Plus you need to be close to overcome the disruption pods anyway, so you're on top of them by turn 2-3 and then it's just mop-up.
Yes, it will depend on the dice as always, and who goes first to an extent, but with the army being cut down to minimum size troops and the real punch coming from 8 AV 11 vehicles and 3 AV 10 vehicles, you'd think if the Tau were going to shine anywhere it'd be against this list. This is even one of the few lists you could fairly safely leave your FW outside of their transports to fire long range.
I normally play Tau although I am thinking of starting another army for a change of pace, possible nids.
Tau have a good chance against this list if it were KP. If it is based on 3 or more objectives, that may be more of a challenge. As usual it would depend who went first as well. Chances usually go up if Tau can fire first.
I have not seen this list used by anyone who I face playing SW, so I am not sure how popular it is. Perhaps the expense is one reason.
JAW's against Tyranids does seem over powered to me.
understands that Hive Guard should be able to WTFPWN Speeders if they're in range. Getting Hive Guard into range on T1-2, even with Spearhead deployment, is a problem.
