i was reading an article on bols on cheating and i was wondering what are some good ways to spot cheaters.
do any vets who probaly played enough games to know about this have anygood tips on spotting cheaters.
and how to deal with them if you do catch them.
garret wrote:i was reading an article on bols on cheating and i was wondering what are some good ways to spot cheaters.
do any vets who probaly played enough games to know about this have anygood tips on spotting cheaters.
and how to deal with them if you do catch them.
Ppl flopping their hand or fore arm near the table.
Chances are they are premeasuring by comparing with their arm length which they already measured.
Though im rather confused to why people need to do that as simple math can easily determine distance
especially most tables are the same size.
My only experience with cheaters in warhammer was with a O&G player who kept his list private, and rather convenient magic items and fanatics started sprouting mid game. Even after the game was over(which ended with a massacre against me) he refused to let me peruse his army list.
I've also seen people use tailors measures to cheat small measurements to add to charge distances and guess weapons.
Also anyone who picks up their dice quickly and demands that they were whatever roll they wanted without you seeing it.
At least in 40k, I can't see the need of many people cheating on measurement. If you've played even a few games you well know the distance your guns are going to reach before you even declare a shot.
Not to mention, standard board size of 72" x 48" is in itself a pre-measure. Standard deployment being 12" in from the table edge which then reduces the actual playing field to 24".
If someone can't realistically eyeball a shot to within half an inch of his range then he deserves to lose the shot. I think there is the possibility of more cheating with the dice, than anything. As aerethan mentioned above, "...anyone who picks up their dice quickly...". I would also add anyone that rolls to-hit, wound quickly back to back.
Personally I have no chance of a 'pick-up' game. So I tend to have to play the same few guys over and over again. I know they're trustworthy.
aerethan wrote:Ranges are less easily guessed when charging with battalions in ranks.
And any smart general knows not to deploy exactly on the 12" mark unless speed into combat is your sole stratagem.
Denying the presumption of 24" of distance to your opponent is quite useful.
Agreed and that's exactly what my DE do. However, I have at times intentionally left specific units off that 12" mark to either allow them to be out of range of weapons fire or to have them conveniently come in to support another unit. Oh..and for the record, I have wasted a shot by only a half inch...
garret wrote:i was reading an article on bols on cheating and i was wondering what are some good ways to spot cheaters.
do any vets who probaly played enough games to know about this have anygood tips on spotting cheaters.
and how to deal with them if you do catch them.
One dude I used to play with used clear dice. Legit Chessex dice, they were just transparent. Almost every dice roll was a "huge success" and always as far away from me as possible.
The biggest thing I look for when the possibility of a cheater is on my plate is manipulation and misinterpretation of the rules for his own benefit. It's real easy to catch people premeasuring or moving 7 inches instead of 6, but if you're playing with "friends" or in a "friendly" environment, you should not feel guilty telling your opponent that they should push their figures back an inch. But a cheater is always going to be a cheater. I stopped playing with the "cheater" in my group.
My best advice would to be know the rules as best as you can, and even a "good" cheater won't be able to pull a fast one on you.
I guess I'm a cheaty face cuz what I do sometimes if I'm unsure is check range with my thumb pinky before I decide never really had and issue. I know quite a few people who do it by combining both hands for 12 inches or random other things like that. That really doesn't seem like cheating that bad specially since Idk what the length of the two are haha.
Necroagogo wrote:They can go from 0 - 64 mph in 3 seconds and are often confused with the leopard.
Best response yet, 100% win
seconded.
dice rolling cheters try to roll a good result when your not looking then say they rolled it. watch for dice rolling and demand rolls be made when they are required and that you whitness every roll.
Acquire all the codexes, and memorise most of the rules. Especially all the popular power builds. That way, if they try any jiggery pokery, you know exactly what's what and can inform them of their 'misinterpretation'.
as stated above, rolling dice and picking them up before you see them. i used to play d&d minis and a guy i played against once (because i refused to play against him after) used dice 1/2 the size of normal 40k dice that come with the game, rolled on the opposite table corner, and scooped up the results (somehow always better than statistically average) in 1/2 second before i could see anything. after seeing that 2-3 times, i asked him to wait for me before picking up the dice. when he "forgot" the next two times (i let another one slide), i simply said from my angle it was a natural 1... as would every die be that he rolled without me seeing the results.
another cheating method people use is the "radar sweep". like the guy in the kittenblood video, they extend the tape measure to around 12+ inches and measure legally from one unit to the next.. and then slowly sweep over the table noting the other relative distances by "accident". this is also a common mistake of people new to tabletop gaming/40k so i always politely mention it when i see people doing it.
The most common of cheating I have witness is people “innocently” misstating the rules to their advantage typically wargear. A lot people are not familiar with every codex, and when someone says that an item gives every one of their models within 12 inches plus one attacks instead of plus one to combat resolve most have nothing, but the sense something is off to refute the behavior.
About 3 or 4 times I had an inclination that some rule was just too good to be true and asked to see my opponent’s codex. Every time I was right but it required me to take time from the game to flip through an unfamiliar codex.
If you suspect someone of cheating then there is probably a good chance that they are. Gently informing the person that you suspect that they may have made an error may be the best way of curtailing cheating, “Are you sure that was only a 6 inch move?”. Just letting a person know that you are paying attention to the board will cause most people to play on the up and up. I believe most cheaters are operating at least partially subconsciously, and speaking up just makes them more observant to their own behaviors.
“Inadvertently” shaming also works. I once played against someone who would occasional bring a 20% point increase to his army (1900 points to a 1500 point game). I played out a friendly game without mentioning that his army seemed bloated. We finished the game and during the packing up period I asked if I could keep his army list as I planned on writing up the battle report. This freaked him out (he did not hide his guilt well), and he was unable to think up a decent reason for leaving the printout with me. So when I checked it out sure enough he was way over his point limit – I never confronted him on it, but the request alone shocked him in line. This way I halted his behavior without having to deal with any hurt feelings, defensive whining, or other unpleasantness.
Another good thing to have down is an understanding of distances. If you have to start 24 inches away from each other it is impossible for someone to take two 6 inches marches towards the enemy over then rapid fire on of your units that didn’t move. I once caught someone in that little logic trap, there is really no conclusion other then have him guess that somehow his guys moved 2 or 3 more inches then they should have.
Never thought about the measuring from one unit to another and then from the last unit to an enemy unit.
That video is pretty messed up though. My question is if a tourny judge saw any of that would the person actually get in trouble for cheating? It is all pretty crappy but does it actually constitute cheating under tournament rules?
Don't talk about the actual cheater, don't talk about the event in which this taken place
But this scale of cheating is nasty. Talk about the ways to spot it. ha.
Having not played (or even seen) a game of 40K in years, can someone explain exactly what the fellow in this video is doing that constitutes cheating? I have my suspicions, but would love to know what others are seeing... Gracias.
Can someone who is really indignant about the player shown in the video walk me through all the instances he cheats?
Sort of like a "Where's Waldo" of cheating.
I imagine it would be relatively easy to say; "At x.xx he premeasures from the Walkers to their prospective targets", "at x.x he shuffles the Spiders forward" and so on.
I believe that would be very helpful in recognizing that sort of behaviour in the future.
Steelmage99 wrote:Can someone who is really indignant about the player shown in the video walk me through all the instances he cheats?
Sort of like a "Where's Waldo" of cheating.
I imagine it would be relatively easy to say; "At x.xx he premeasures from the Walkers to their prospective targets", "at x.x he shuffles the Spiders forward" and so on.
I believe that would be very helpful in recognizing that sort of behaviour in the future.
The only cheat I caught was at 2:16 he moves a model from the middle back of a unit to the front of the ones who moved before, making him move about 2" beyond his max movement. Not sure if all the premeasuring suspicions or model shuffling count.
I label him as a douchebag based on the fact that he kept shuffling the unit after moving and using his forearm to "check LoS". I would not play against someone who needs such minor details in order to win at soldier toys.
ah thanks that reminds me .... the cavalry extra movement cheat: every cav unit usually gets a full march move woth of movement per game not because of cheating but just because of neglegance on the part of the player running them (well some do cheat this way) basically they try not to use a turn template and this results in free inches, the more turning the more free movement. ive seen a whole bretonion army move about 25, 26 inches into charges when the first move he said was only 8 inches in the first turm 8 plus charge is 24, but because of slight turns and not using proper methods he was able to charge into units that were set up about 2 inches back from the line. its not common that people do this for the purpose of cheeting , but demand to see that each move is done properly, and that the person understands that free movement though not cheating (per say)is common and should be checked. some of couse have problems with it, and refuse the template, but most dont. on the same note this use to happen with nids as well becausethey move so far each tun.
Steelmage99 wrote:Can someone who is really indignant about the player shown in the video walk me through all the instances he cheats?
Sort of like a "Where's Waldo" of cheating.
I imagine it would be relatively easy to say; "At x.xx he premeasures from the Walkers to their prospective targets", "at x.x he shuffles the Spiders forward" and so on.
I believe that would be very helpful in recognizing that sort of behaviour in the future.
VIDEO 1
The person in question has his ruler extended at all times. That's pretty flagrant cheating. Just laying down a ruler extended to 6, 12 inches and "doing" something else, coming back to it and picking it up can give you plenty of time to "eye" how long the measurement is.
He also does stuff like leaving it on the table, pre-measuring constantly (holding the ruler over models and then not taking an action with the unit after).
Very old movement trick in measuring, moving the front models and then being very lax in the measurement of the back models, then shuffling one forward and moving a few forward when placing the other models down. It's easy to squeeze extra inches out that way.
The wave serpent and jetbikes were all measure to 12 inches, he then goes flat out with the serpent fudging an extra inch at the end of the move. He measured, then picked up the ruler as he placed the tank.
The bikes then did not move. Honestly not an issue there because their actions aren't impacted by being classified as moving, although that would be worse obviously if they had rapid fire weapons or something.
VIDEO 2
The fire dragons showed up about.... 6 inches outside the tank ... on the opposite side of the exit point.... and then it went flat out back to where it was a turn ago. That one was pretty hilarious no one caught it.
He then nudges the terrain forward jumping with the warp spiders. Minimal harm done. Shuffles them around, but within 12 inches. Sloppy play but not cheating.
The warp spiders, despite not moving their full 12 always had the ruler extended to 12 inches directly towards the death company(?). He used that to determine distance away from models that could potential charge the next turn. Not cheating, but again - borderline.
However, the next move is bringing the Warp Spiders back to their previous spot - then measuring out a similar way to a different spot. Under the guise of "changing his mind while still moving the active unit", he was able to determine the position of an enemy unit down to an inch and move accordingly. That's cheating.
That's pretty much the movement phases. I would have called a judge the second he kept on keeping his tape measure out. That's pre-measuring, and cheating. The sloppy movement fudges and constant moving units back and forth is another form of visual premeasurement.
I feel sorry for the grey-haired gentlemen. but honestly, if you're not savvy enough to beat a pretty obvious cheater, then you're probably not experienced enough to do these kind of tournaments.
Dice rolling trays: They keep the tray on the far side of the table and roll the dice in your direction, so they land out of your line of sight.
Forgetting wounds on their models: best way to avoid this is to bring your own little wound counters to use for thier models, if you rely on them using dice to track wounds, they will most definately pick them up when making a roll and not place them back.
when rolling for sets of shots from twin linked weapons (or other similar rerollable things) rolling 2 dice at a time for each shot. It doesnt sound bad, but when you consider the total number of dice rolled, and statistical averages, it works out in favor of the person rolling the dice. for example, i have a squad of marines with bolter drill from lysander, all shooting outside of rapid fire range. 10 shots, all twin linked. roll 10 sets of 2 dice, 20 rolls, and not miss a single shot. roll 10 shots, then reroll the misses (lets assume 3) you now have only rolled 13 dice and may have missed a shot or 2.
Also watch how your opponent rolls dice: having 2 dice that are always sitting on 1's and just grabbing them between your index finger and thumb and lightly tossing them about 1" above the table is not rolling, and I HAVE had opponents try this crap on me before.
Personally I don't see premeasuring as much of a problem. It only gives everyone an accurate view of the battle, that an experienced player has anyway. The only reason to premeasure is if you're still somewhat inexperienced at the game, and then why not. This game is supposed to be about tactics and maybe list writing, not who can guess ranges better.
Moving models forward or ridiculous dice rolling on the other hand is going to get a "What the heck are you doing?"
I have seen the trick where a cheater holds one dice tight with the forefinger against their palm. Typically they will make a big show out of shaking their fist for a long time then they extend their fingers gently dropping the one die so it lands with the six up. This cheat dice roll typically is used to determine who goes first or an important invulnerable save.
All rolls for scatter should taken right beside where the model(s) landing (deepstrike etc.), not half way across the table. This prevent the cheater from skewing the direction of scatter.
Always keep an eye out for a dice that is only used once or twice in the game. For example, you shoot a squad and are planning to assault it then your opponent pulls out two magic dice, fails their leadership test (high roll) then fallback outside of your charge range (another high roll). The dice then disappear and are never seen again.
I don't have a problem with people rolling two dice for twin linked weapons but each roll should be made separate from the others, otherwise they can pick up all the hits by mixing all the dice together when in fact some of the twin linked double rolls may have both failed to hit.
Shooting around the corner of a building - I've seen this one quite often. The cheater pulls out their tape measure and it bends around the corner of a building as they check for line of sight.
If an opponent has lots of multi wound units the best thing to do is create a chart with rows (model) and columns (wounds) to keep track. You can also place a dice of marker beside each wounded model but I prefer the chart.
I like to use a dice tray as there is no cocked dice. The tray should be placed where everyone can see the results of the dice roll. I have seen people only pick up cocked dice to reroll when it helps them.
Fast rolls that are quickly picked up are always a sign that cheating is in progress.
they stutter when they explain a rule, they ask you to repeat a question, try to change the subject.
they smile when you look down (if you're smart, you'll notice this through your peripheral vision.)
they refuse your looking at armylists/codex.
they refuse to let you check with a FLGS member.
they act like they didn't know they did it wrong, when you catch them out.
hope these help.
Edit: you're called by someone to help them, and they do the roll before you come, or they look at you with that smile that says "I'm so lucky I didn't roll that."
Or they walk away just after you roll and they can say, "hey I didn't see that" then brand you as a TFG cheater.
FTR, If I feel that someone didn't see it, If it's good enough I'll always offer to re-roll, just because I'm interested in having fun, not winning badly.
another thing I see in big games is people taking 6 LR saying it's Ok, because 3 of them are DT for Terminators, even though they know they can't give them to more then one of each type of terminators.
ALSO. Doesn't anyone else HATE it when people change their psykers rules.
Demogerg wrote:when rolling for sets of shots from twin linked weapons (or other similar rerollable things) rolling 2 dice at a time for each shot. It doesnt sound bad, but when you consider the total number of dice rolled, and statistical averages, it works out in favor of the person rolling the dice. for example, i have a squad of marines with bolter drill from lysander, all shooting outside of rapid fire range. 10 shots, all twin linked. roll 10 sets of 2 dice, 20 rolls, and not miss a single shot. roll 10 shots, then reroll the misses (lets assume 3) you now have only rolled 13 dice and may have missed a shot or 2.
I don't think this is a problem, unless they are playing deliberately slow, or pick'a'mixing
I play opponents who will, conveniently or otherwise, forget certain rules like checking for synapse or Chaos Dred frenzy. Easy to do but can have a big impact on the battle if you don't remember.
2) using the rules wrong in the next game AFTER you've pointed it out to them they were wrong when they play your friend.
3) marking you down in sportsmanship for not letting them cheat
Ahem! (Army of salvation dude I played at toy wiz once)
Worst part is, I asked the guy via youtube to see if he would play a game to bury the hatchet/demonstrate it was just an off day... he outright ignored my request after he knew who I was :(... and I usually win best sportsman where ever I go
Green Blow Fly wrote:If an opponent has lots of multi wound units the best thing to do is create a chart with rows (model) and columns (wounds) to keep track. You can also place a dice of marker beside each wounded model but I prefer the chart.
Having just learned the rule stretch for wound allocation in multi wound units (knobs, battle suits) I think this a great suggestion, and i will be using this method in all upcoming games.
The thing i have biggest problem with, is fast dice rolling. I like to know what your troops stats are, therefore i know what you need, and i like to look at the rolls. Pre-measuring while very cheeky doesn't quite ruin a game like dice cheating. but thats just IMHO, if the pre-measure gets out of hand, then call it out.
The biggest cheat i've come across, is when someone plays an army you just aren't familiar with, and they give themselves cool made up wargear.
I used to play WHFB with my bro, and a couple regulars at the local shop, back in the day, you had to spend so many points on troops, characters, etc etc, so the guy that we played that always cheated, used to buff up his army list by 100 pts, and used to give his characters more allocated points than he leagally could. We all knew this, but he always always lost, he even lost to my Skaven.... a lot. It was one of those things we all picked up on, and noticed that it didn't really help him out at all.... and we all knew to expect it. We never really called him out on it, because we didn't have too many options for opponents and he play three different armies. sad but true.
Steelmage99 wrote:Can someone who is really indignant about the player shown in the video walk me through all the instances he cheats?
Sort of like a "Where's Waldo" of cheating.
I imagine it would be relatively easy to say; "At x.xx he premeasures from the Walkers to their prospective targets", "at x.x he shuffles the Spiders forward" and so on.
I believe that would be very helpful in recognizing that sort of behaviour in the future.
VIDEO 1
The person in question has his ruler extended at all times. That's pretty flagrant cheating. Just laying down a ruler extended to 6, 12 inches and "doing" something else, coming back to it and picking it up can give you plenty of time to "eye" how long the measurement is.
He also does stuff like leaving it on the table, pre-measuring constantly (holding the ruler over models and then not taking an action with the unit after).
Very old movement trick in measuring, moving the front models and then being very lax in the measurement of the back models, then shuffling one forward and moving a few forward when placing the other models down. It's easy to squeeze extra inches out that way.
The wave serpent and jetbikes were all measure to 12 inches, he then goes flat out with the serpent fudging an extra inch at the end of the move. He measured, then picked up the ruler as he placed the tank.
The bikes then did not move. Honestly not an issue there because their actions aren't impacted by being classified as moving, although that would be worse obviously if they had rapid fire weapons or something.
VIDEO 2
The fire dragons showed up about.... 6 inches outside the tank ... on the opposite side of the exit point.... and then it went flat out back to where it was a turn ago. That one was pretty hilarious no one caught it.
He then nudges the terrain forward jumping with the warp spiders. Minimal harm done. Shuffles them around, but within 12 inches. Sloppy play but not cheating.
The warp spiders, despite not moving their full 12 always had the ruler extended to 12 inches directly towards the death company(?). He used that to determine distance away from models that could potential charge the next turn. Not cheating, but again - borderline.
However, the next move is bringing the Warp Spiders back to their previous spot - then measuring out a similar way to a different spot. Under the guise of "changing his mind while still moving the active unit", he was able to determine the position of an enemy unit down to an inch and move accordingly. That's cheating.
That's pretty much the movement phases. I would have called a judge the second he kept on keeping his tape measure out. That's pre-measuring, and cheating. The sloppy movement fudges and constant moving units back and forth is another form of visual premeasurement.
I feel sorry for the grey-haired gentlemen. but honestly, if you're not savvy enough to beat a pretty obvious cheater, then you're probably not experienced enough to do these kind of tournaments.
While this isn't quite what I asked for, I certainly commend you on your work.
I too noticed the strange disembarking of the Fire Dragons, and the subsequent All Out move by the Falcon.
None of his dice rolling seems exceedingly fast at all.
Video 1:
At 0.05 we notice that he has his ruler extended most of the time.....but is that really cheating?
If I had an army mainly consisting of Warp Spiders (two squads), Jetbikes (four squads), a hoverboard mounted fast squad (Small Seer Council? ) and a Falcon, I too would have my ruler extended to 12" most of the time.
I might even go so far as cutting a red whippy stick down to 12" and have that laying around. This has been suggested as an anti-cheating device elsewhere, but I cannot even shorten that.
At 0.22 he measures the movement allowed for a Warp Spider squad (called A). He should be moving those, but he doesn't. A tournament opponent would be well within his rights to claim that Warp Spider squad as has indeed "moved" (a total of 0") as soon as he picks another squad to move as happens at 0.36.
He obviously checks how far the Spiders move, so they don't block his solitary walkers LOS.
At 1.05 he moves his Seer Council. While he does shuffle them around a bit, he doesn't appear to exceed his allowed movement.
At 1.58 he returns to Warp Spider squad A. Those too he shuffles around, but notice the distance measured at 2.02. In the end he doesn't exceed that. Even with the shuffling, nudging and tripping of models, he doesn't exceed the maximum move.
At 2.31 he checks which armourfacing he is going to hit. This he does with the use of his arm. Is that cheating?
He could also take a step back, bend down a bit, close one eye and eyeball it....but as we are already accusing him of slow-playing (the original article is, anyway), then quickly using the arm works for me. At 2.48 the models are in their final position an inch short of their allowed movement.
At 2.57 he starts to measure the movement for a Jetbike squadron (called D). The same issue pops up as it did with the Warp Spiders...
As he, at 3.21, decides to move the Falcon instead (although he never moves Jetbike squadron D, so its OK). The movement of the Falcon seems OK. Maybe half-an-inch too long, I dunno. He is of course allowed to premeasure his movement to his hearts content, which he does.
Can someone analyse the dicerolls of his shooting with his walker squadron. I can't quite get to grips with it.
Video 2
At 0.01......The infamous long-distance disembarking.
At 0.25 he starts to measure the illegal All-Out move for his Falcon, which is of course impossible to do after having disembarked passengers. That aside he seems to gain about an inch and a half as he moves it back.
At 1.25 he feels the need to adjust the position of his Fire Dragons.
At 1.27 he can't help himself and need to fondle them again.
At around 2.38 I noticed that he seemed to gain half-an-inch by first moving the second Warp Spider squad in one direction, and then putting them back (not quite in the correct position) and then moving them in another direction.
At 3.30 he, completely unmotivated, moves the rearmost Spider of squad 2 to the front of the squad.
At 3.57 he gains an inch and a half by moving his Jetbikes (called A) back and forth. At 4.25 he then chooses to completely nullify that "advantage" by Turboboosting in the other direction.
At 4.35 please notice how one member of the Turboboosting Jetbike squad A is in front of a member of another Jetbike squad (called C). At 4.45 he moves Jetbike squad C and at 5.00 he, again completely unmotivated, moves Jetbike squad A back towards the edge into the position previously held by squad C. Perhaps to bring him out of range of the TL-lascannon Razorbacks. I can't tell.
At 5.12 he starts to reposition his Warp Spider for a third time. While this is indeed a dickmove, he is still well within the allowed movement (shown at 2.03).
You've heard of having cards up your sleeve but what about models up your sleeve!?
I saw someone cheating once, they had ork boyz up their sleeve and was cunningly deploying them when his opponent wasnt looking, its hard ot notice an extra boy in about twenty after all.
Ussualy it's scummy movement and fudging the rules of a dex. I collect IG and another IG player at our club had been grouping together a 50-man combined squad of Guard AND chucking his platoon command (with medic in tow) in there as well, giving about 55 models Feel No Pain. When I found out about this I pointed him to the rules that pretty explicitly said you can't do that. IMO the guy is also a bit shifty with his movement, but I don't really think he cheats.
There seems to be a lot of outrage at this guy. If I were playing him in a friendly game I might remind him about the disembarking and full-out move but otherwise not mind. Doesn't seem as malicious as people make out. At a tournament, however, I think people expect better.
That's the issue, it is a tournament. Pre-measuring is against the rules and you certainly shouldn't shuffle your models around constantly, especially after moving a different squad......
mattyboy22 wrote:That's the issue, it is a tournament. Pre-measuring is against the rules and you certainly shouldn't shuffle your models around constantly, especially after moving a different squad......
That's exactly what I was getting at.
In a casual game, sure. These things *do* happen (sometimes with certain people, more often than not...), and it's relatively no big deal. I don't mind things like this to some extent. Sloppy play, bad hand-eye coordination, trivial cheating - it's all the same and you shouldn't really sweat those things.
However, in a tournament with presumably with money or prizes in some form on the line, I would expect much better. I'm not a tournament player by trade anymore, but I'm a razor sharp gamer compared to this guy. And he wins best general?
It's hard to believe everyone tolerated his sloppy and suspicious play. You don't let things slide in tournaments, that's not being a bad sportsman - it's playing by the letter of the rule. Tournaments are not casual play and you can expect opponents to call out your infractions as well.
Eldar Own wrote:You've heard of having cards up your sleeve but what about models up your sleeve!?
I saw someone cheating once, they had ork boyz up their sleeve and was cunningly deploying them when his opponent wasnt looking, its hard ot notice an extra boy in about twenty after all.
There is a player in my local BB league who is constantly being called out for many little things: Turning over stunned players at the start of his turn, then going back to try stand them up later in his turn. Constantly rolling dice and waving his hand in the general direction of the board, then announcing that one of your players is injured. Rolling for skills when no-one else can check the rolls.....
...He gets alot of wins against the less experienced players who aren't too sure of the rules yet but there are a couple who seem to be wising up. Some of the older players have tried to have a little chat with him to make him stop but he just seems unable to help himself. Happily, he is an awful player removing the need to chuck him out of the competition
Whoops. I´ve actually done the "extended tape measure on the table" thing. At a mini-tourney.
Not maliciously I should add, and after finishing all guess range and moving for the turn, but I have put an extended tape measure on the table.
I never even considered that it could be used for pre-measuring my next turn. When my opponent asked me to retract it before continuing, I simply thought he was worried about mini´s getting knocked over... Doh.
Might be a good idea to have a thread covering the basic do´s and don´ts of tournament play for us tournament noobs...?
Luckily the tourneys here are actually quite friendly. A lot of us know each other from previous gaming, and the guys running the local store usually play as well, stepping in as judges as needed.
I myself organise a sort of 'Christmas Tournament' at our local club every year. Cash prize, food decorations, but I've never entered anything really official.
Movement cheats seem to be the most prevelant that we see out this way. The "Stewie Shuffle" of moving units forward, changing your mind, moving them back ~80% of the distance moved, then repeating until you are half way across the board was a favorite of a particular scumbag at the store. That and the "Long Six Inches" are always troublesome.
The best way I have found to counter this is to ALWAYS take shots even if you know you are out of range. "Ok, my storm bolter is 2" out of range. Cool." If somehow his stealth team hopped 6" and is hitting you with 18" shots, you know he went a tad far. Plus, if you can point out that you know and he knew last turn the range, he is less likely to pull it in the future.
As an aside, I want to back up Frgsinwntr (Frogs in Winter). He came out to our local shop for a tournament, and despite my ass being handed to me, we had a great game, and I probably have lots of bad habits from casual gaming.
mattyboy22 wrote:That's the issue, it is a tournament. Pre-measuring is against the rules and you certainly shouldn't shuffle your models around constantly, especially after moving a different squad......
Can you please point out when he does some illegal premeasuring?
Preferably with a time-index. Keep in mind that premeasuring your movement is allowed.
The issue of having an extended ruler (or Heaven forbid) a precut whippy stick has already been addressed. Like I said in my detailed walkthrough of the videos, I too would most likely have a ruler extended to 12" most of the time or a precut whippy stick if I used the army shown.
Does that make me a cheater? Had he laid the ruler sideways instead of extended forward, would he still be accused of cheating?
I certainly agree that there is way too much shuffling of models on there, but in the end none of the shuffling done has any relevance; movement allowance isn't exceeded and LOS isn't significantly changed (except in the one case with the Warp Spiders).
I am not blind to that fact that this is something we are only able to determine after the fact. Only through the use of the video can we go back and see how far he was allowed to move in the first place.
As such the shuffling is something that should be avoided at all costs. Mainly because it is illegal, but also partly because our opponent doesn't have the ability to go back in time (like we can with the video) and check the facts.
I may sound like I am defending him, but that isn't really the case.
I very much believe in pointing out cheaters and ridiculing them, but I also believe in fairness.
And in all fairness I believe this guy is being used as a scapegoat for all the pent-up and repressed feelings about the Cheaters we never had the balls to call out.
I watched the video last night, and I can honestly say that I have never seen anyone do that kind of stuff. If I had seen him do all this shuffling that he was doing I would have asked him right away to stop it, not because I thought he was cheating, but because it was annoying and slowing the game down.
I kind of agree with steelmage, can someone actually point out where were the instances of cheating? Because I have never seen these kind of shenangins I would like to be prepared for it when it happens.
I mean is it really cheating to shuffle the models like that?(as long as you don't gain extra movement obviously) This isn't chess where if you move your model and take your hand off it your done right?
I'm not defending the guy, mind you, just trying to understand the rage.
Agreed with the two above, I don't see any obvious cheating, except going back to shuffle models after starting with another unit - finish one unit, then move on to another, do not go back to the finished unit
The firedragon thing is hard to jugde when we don't know what happened right before. If that falcon hadn't moved, he could move 8" away from the exit in his turn, and his falcon could also move away (but maybe not go flat out?)
He seems like a slightly annoying guy to play against, he certainly takes his time and goes a lot back and forth, but I see little obvious cheating
i think the biggest thing in the video that bothered me, was his large and small dice where the same color, and I couldn't see any numbers on anyside of any side.... granted its a video, but i can see how they would be hard to read on the table top. His speed and viewing distance when rolling are somewhat suspect. His tape measure and shuffling around of models are suspect. His wound marker on one piece got knocked off a couple of times and who knows what it actually is supposed to say? The thing with the guy in the video is, he does a lot of suspect things, that all together add up IMHO to cheating, no player is THAT clueless, if he's been kicked out of as many game stores as claimed, then he should know better.
We start to assume he fudges his dice rolls (which I don't believe he does) and that he changes the wound marker (which we cannot see).
I agree he does a lot of suspect thing (the shuffling of models being the most obvious), but lets be fair and only accuse him of things we can actually detect.
Look at his dice rolls.
In the first shooting phase that we see, we have no idea where the opponent is. Is he leaned over the table and looking at the rolls? Has he walked away (for whatever reason)?
In the second shooting phase that we see, we can also see the opponent. He is quite near and shouldn't have any problems following the dice rolls. I can almost follow them and I am looking through an unzoomed shaky video camera!
Emperors Faithful wrote:I collect IG and another IG player at our club had been grouping together a 50-man combined squad of Guard AND chucking his platoon command (with medic in tow) in there as well, giving about 55 models Feel No Pain.
I've run into two other people who have done this. One played pre 5th edition, and the other was a good friend who picked up my Codex and had just built an army out of my stuff to play. I think it's just an honest mistake made by glancing at the ability and seeing you can combine stuff and knowing that you can do this weird thing with all these platoons as one FOC selection.
Thats just freaking awesome right there. I have a feeling if I cheated on my fiance though there wouldnt be writing on my car but a charred frame thats still smoking.
I have faced my share of cheaters. One was using a defiler to fire his battle cannon through three things of terrain, forests, craters and half a building into the squad inside it then insisted they didn't get a cover save 'because he could see them'
Another was a Nid player who would alter the BS of his warriors armed with deathspitters back when they were blast template weapons. He didn't upgrade them as he tolled me but rolled their BS skill as if they were 4, not 2. He would always distort the facing of the scatter die to his advantage even if i had him roll it next to the unit. Another was saying his Ravenors were str 5 on my Berzerkers...later i found out from other players and the Nid codex they are str 4 and he never biomorphs the small units. Lastly he would nudge his gaunts up from the table edge after entering play using without numbers THEN make their table entry move. I managed to call him on a few things and he easily pushed them back but other times he would do some fast rolling and pick up dice i could have sworn were 2's and not 3's. I remove my misses and he would say that i bumped into a dice and turned it into a hit when it was a miss, which i use the crane pickup from above...how the hell can i bump into scattered dice to turn them?
Basically everyone at my FLGS knows of his shenanigans and are keeping a wary eye for when he enters tournament play.
mattyboy22 wrote:That's the issue, it is a tournament. Pre-measuring is against the rules and you certainly shouldn't shuffle your models around constantly, especially after moving a different squad......
I see. BURN THE HERETIC!
@ Generalgrog. Defiler did a run down of the suspicious and flagrant behaviour a few pages back.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Defiler wrote:VIDEO 1
The person in question has his ruler extended at all times. That's pretty flagrant cheating. Just laying down a ruler extended to 6, 12 inches and "doing" something else, coming back to it and picking it up can give you plenty of time to "eye" how long the measurement is.
He also does stuff like leaving it on the table, pre-measuring constantly (holding the ruler over models and then not taking an action with the unit after).
Very old movement trick in measuring, moving the front models and then being very lax in the measurement of the back models, then shuffling one forward and moving a few forward when placing the other models down. It's easy to squeeze extra inches out that way.
The wave serpent and jetbikes were all measure to 12 inches, he then goes flat out with the serpent fudging an extra inch at the end of the move. He measured, then picked up the ruler as he placed the tank.
The bikes then did not move. Honestly not an issue there because their actions aren't impacted by being classified as moving, although that would be worse obviously if they had rapid fire weapons or something.
VIDEO 2
The fire dragons showed up about.... 6 inches outside the tank ... on the opposite side of the exit point.... and then it went flat out back to where it was a turn ago. That one was pretty hilarious no one caught it.
He then nudges the terrain forward jumping with the warp spiders. Minimal harm done. Shuffles them around, but within 12 inches. Sloppy play but not cheating.
The warp spiders, despite not moving their full 12 always had the ruler extended to 12 inches directly towards the death company(?). He used that to determine distance away from models that could potential charge the next turn. Not cheating, but again - borderline.
However, the next move is bringing the Warp Spiders back to their previous spot - then measuring out a similar way to a different spot. Under the guise of "changing his mind while still moving the active unit", he was able to determine the position of an enemy unit down to an inch and move accordingly. That's cheating.
That's pretty much the movement phases. I would have called a judge the second he kept on keeping his tape measure out. That's pre-measuring, and cheating. The sloppy movement fudges and constant moving units back and forth is another form of visual premeasurement.
I feel sorry for the grey-haired gentlemen. but honestly, if you're not savvy enough to beat a pretty obvious cheater, then you're probably not experienced enough to do these kind of tournaments.
Here's a question: Would measuring an angle or two and the distance between two-fixed points on the board, taking those measurements and calculating distance using sin and cos functions on a scientific calculator, and then using that result as your "guess" for a ranged weapon in a game of WFB be considered cheating?
I've only seen it done once before at a pick-up game at my old FLGS. A new level of Math-hammer?
Steelmage99 wrote:
And in all fairness I believe this guy is being used as a scapegoat for all the pent-up and repressed feelings about the Cheaters we never had the balls to call out.
Khornholio wrote:Here's a question: Would measuring an angle or two and the distance between two-fixed points on the board, taking those measurements and calculating distance using sin and cos functions on a scientific calculator, and then using that result as your "guess" for a ranged weapon in a game of WFB be considered cheating?
I've only seen it done once before at a pick-up game at my old FLGS. A new level of Math-hammer?
You are not allowed to measure anything unless the rules say you can. So yes, it would be cheating to measure a random distance.
Magic dice seem to be the most talked about. Usually they're given away by having dice for specific tasks such as "leadership dice", "shooting dice", etc. I believe everyone is guilty of "The Long 6 Inches" at one time or another, usually that's caught though. At my FLGS one of the players saw somebody using water rings (condensation from a cold drink) as measurement markers on the table.
Steelmage99 wrote:
And in all fairness I believe this guy is being used as a scapegoat for all the pent-up and repressed feelings about the Cheaters we never had the balls to call out.
*coughs*
Speak for yourself.
I'm sorry, I do not understand what it is you are referring to. Could you please elaborate?
Had you read any of my posts you would see that I am one of the few people calmly asking for order, instead of just accusing they guy. It just seems to me like a lot of people are make a lot of statements that either; A. Doesn't apply to the game we see ("He is rolling really fast!") or B. Are patently stupid ("It is illegal to have your ruler extended").
The fun/scary thing is when these people are asked to clarify or point out exactly when the "cheating" is happening......they mysteriously stop posting.
Measuring the full distance for a model, and then not moving them, is perfectly valid if you then count them as having moved a total of 0 inches in the shooting phase, correct?
The rulebook clearly states you can measure a move and then choose to not move your models, but they count as having 'moved'.
So if you have say, a uit with assault weapons who aren't impacted by moving, you could measure their moves, deceide against it and mark them as having 'moved' for the purpose of shooting. They of course, wont be affected at all, having assault weapons.
But the rulebook states you can can always measure your move, and then choose to not move at all, but you just count as having moved?
Just curious. I never play in tournaments, so am wondering what people think.
I might choose to move my marines 6, realize that it wont put them behind cover like I thought it would, dont move them at all, and put a marker next to them to indicate having moved for the purpose of rapid fire weapons.
OK I'm really bored so I'll take a crack at breaking this vid down.
VIDEO 1 ANALYSIS
@00:23 he measures move distance for his warp spiders, then doesn't move them. No cheat there AFAIK
@00:38 he moves the walker what appears to be 6" almost totally lateral. He then kind of pushes the walker about maybe 1/2" forward which makes it a true lateral. no cheating there, although certainly a wierd thing to do.
@00:56 he measures distance for some bikes behind a hill, then doesn't move them. No cheat AFAIK
@1:05 he moves two of his seer council what appears to be 12" forward, then he repositions them laterally bout 1". I noticed that he didn't appear to get any closer to the enemy vehicles or any farther away. (really hard to tell in the vid) the net effect was that he moved them about the same. I didn't see anything like moving them closer, if anything he was moving them back some. NO cheat AFAIK
@1:11 he does reposition what appeasr to be a wound counter dice but no way to know from the vid whether he did it corect or not.
@1:51 he measured 12" for his falcon diagonally forward and didnt move it.
@1:56 he goes back to the warp spiders measures again the 12" and then appears to move the first model under the 12" allowed like say 10".
@2:11 he accidentally bumps the first warp spider forward about 1/2" still within the 12" max.
@2:13 This is where it gets a little dicey. He moves the 3rd warpspider correctly then goes back and moves it about an extra inch in front of the 1st warp spider. This is difficult, because if you remember he didn't move the first warp spider the entire 12", and the 3rd warpspider was right behind the first. So even though it looks shady, he only moved the 3rd spider 12".
@2:31 He does this thing with his arm, where he appears to be checking line of sight or something. Possibly using his arm to try and guess range(I don't know what he's doing there).
@2:34 He starts to reposition his warp spiders because evidently he doesn't like something he saw when he did his arm trick thing. Notice he isnt moving them closer but actually moving them back an inch or so. There is no doubt that all of the warp spiders are indeed under the 12" max move.
@2:57 he measures for his rear bikes and doesnt move them again.
@3:21 he measures falcon 12"(exact same spot as before) and doesn't move it again.
@3:59 he moves his falcon 24" in direction he measured 12". I don't see any shenanigans there.
So at the end he goes into the shooting phase.
I didn't see any blatant cheating in that first video. I will comment that his playing style is highly unorthodox and certainly annoying. Also a 5 minute movement phase isn't really that long.
VIDEO 2 ANALYSIS
I assume this is the next turn since, his spiders appear to have done their assault phase jump.
The video starts out with him placing some firedragons, however he is placing them at the front of the falcon. It is really hard to tell but it appears he is placing them 3" away from the point of the falcon? Also he is deploying them from the front of the thing instead of out the rear. There is definately something wrong going on here. I would have called him out on this. (As I thought about this, the video didn't show the begining, so he may have just moved the fire dragons the 8" from the back of the falcon, so this would in fact be legal, the video makes it appear that he deployed them wrong when in fact he probably did it correctly)
@0:26 He measures 24" for his falcon again, then changes his mind.
@0:53 he measures laterally for his falcon and then moves it 24". It appears that he did get an extra inch or 2 out of the move since he was trying to avoid hitting his 2nd unit of warp spiders. TBH I really don't think it gained him anything to do that.
EDIT: I don't haev my rulebook handy, but apparantly you can't disembark, then move flat out(24")?
@1:20 he fidgets with the fire dragons. it's off camera can't see what he did.
@1:24 he does this thing with his fingers to gauge distance for his fire dragons vs the enemy vehicle. Even though I don't think it really gained him anything, I would call shenanigans on this move.
@1:28 He fidgets his fire dragons again. annoying for sure
@2:03 he has his tape measure set at 12" but moves the warp spiders about 8". No cheating AFAIK
@2:38 he measures the 12" and starts to move the 2nd squad of spiders, then he changes his mind.
@3:09 he decides to move the 2nd squad of spiders 12" near the fire dragons.
@3:31 he has allready finished moving his spiders but then goes back and starts repositioning the ones in the back to the front. Definate cheat here, he got about 19" out of that one for at least one spider
(From 3:33 to 5:06 some more annoying measuring and changing his mind.) nothing major worth going into.
@5:06 a full 3 minutes after he allready moved them, he starts moving his 1st warp spider unit again. This is the unit that didn't move the full 12" so he didn't excede is max movement but still anoying to do this.
Then it goes into the shooting phase. Another 5 minute movement phase.
Anyway the main things I saw that he was doing which could be classified as cheating was in the 2nd video:
@1:24 the finger measure thing
@3:31 moving the one spider twice to bring it closer. (definate cheat IMO)
So those videos show all in all 1 definate cheat and 1 cheesy finger measury thingy. All of the rest, I would classify as anal retentive stuff, where the guy couldn't make up his mind or was trying get evrything "perfect".
I definatley would be annoyed by playing this guy, and would not want to play him. But all the internet uproar is abit over the top, based on those videos alone. Now I tend to believe what these guys are telling me when they say that they have played him and he cheats all the time. I however would not use that video to try and prove he was this total cheat becuase the videos really show very little concrete stuff
The videos were educational and I'm glad I reviewed them so closely, becuase I will look for this kind of stuff in the future.
Illumini wrote:If he moved the walker 12", that was another definitive cheat though, no cruising speed for a walker
ACK good catch he only moved it 6" I need to go and fix that.. ACK
GG
Good run-down Grog. I skimmed through mine.
I don't think he's an abhorrent cheater, but I do consider pre-measuring, leaving your unit, then coming back to it to be cheating. I guess I have a chess mentality with movement and shooting. Maybe I'm just completely anal retentive and that official tournaments don't have chess rules?
That would explain my issues with
-Leaving the unit you just checked range for, If you check range - you have to move it, or else you can scrye battlefield information out of your "change of heart".
-Shuffling models
Howlingmoon wrote:tournaments are bad. tournament players are bad.
Exactly! Exactly!
These videos show to us - with video evidence - that tournament gamers are cheaters. All of them. Not just this one, aot just the guy playing him, and not all the people we see walking on that awful carpet behind them. But all of them, collectively. I'd imagine that if you did a survey of all the people in that video tomorrow, they'd all list their greatest role models as Pol Pot and Stalin. That has nothing to do with the video, but I'm sure it's also true.
So remember folks, tournament gamers are terrorists, cheaters, support dictatorships and have no taste in carpet.
This message brought to you by the Dakka Casual Gaming Mafia - 'Because Winning is for Losers!'
In the video the models are being brought in from outside the table on the short edge.
I would agree that measuring from a unit counts it as moving, and that once you have moved on from that unit, it cannot move again. Nor should movements be taken back.
The same rules should apply as chess, once your hand is off the piece it's move is permanent.
Also, this idea of checking LoS with his arm is total BS. You can eyeball armor facings and with the fact that a known unit of measurement( a cubit, which is 18" and was based off the average length of a mans arm elbow to finger tips, which after just now measuring mine is dead on) that it counts as cheating by way of premeasuring.
my biggest peeves with this guys as a player in a TOURNAMENT setting, are 1. He leaves he tape measure extended and on the table. 2. The model shuffling bothers me, while it might not be out and out cheating... it bugs me. 3. His dice moves are suspect to me from watching the video, but then from the video you can't see his opponent either looking at them.
I've seen massive dice cheating, especially in a GT my brothers were in. They would do the cliche fist shake but then when they let the dice go, they put there hand on the table and tilt it so the dice just "slide" off.
EDIT:
OH YEAH, flash pick ups to, picking up their hits. or getting the deviation dice, picking it up sp fast so you dont see the result, and he says he's gona roll it again because you didnt see it. Silly but it happens.
aerethan wrote:In the video the models are being brought in from outside the table on the short edge.
I would agree that measuring from a unit counts it as moving, and that once you have moved on from that unit, it cannot move again. Nor should movements be taken back.
The same rules should apply as chess, once your hand is off the piece it's move is permanent.
Also, this idea of checking LoS with his arm is total BS. You can eyeball armor facings and with the fact that a known unit of measurement( a cubit, which is 18" and was based off the average length of a mans arm elbow to finger tips, which after just now measuring mine is dead on) that it counts as cheating by way of premeasuring.
I know that it has always been a rule in tournies, where I play, that you can't premeasure before you fire. (And I believe that's in the rulebook somewhere). Where does it say that measuring from a unit count's as moving in the rule book?
Now the arm thing is certainly suspect, and I wouldn't allow it.
The fidgeting with models stuff, I would ask him to stop it.
The going back and moving models 3 minutes later I wouldn't have allowed it.
The finger trick he did with the firedragons, I wouldn't have allowed it.
These are all things that his opponent should have said stop it, or I'm getting a judge to watch.
As per the rulebook you move one unit at a time, as soon as you start to measure with that unit, you must decide what they are doing.
you cannot, for example measure the movement range of your rhino, decide you need to move your land raider first, move the land raider, then go back and move the rhino.
as soon as you measure for the rhino, you must commit to its movement (or lack thereof)
Howlingmoon wrote:tournaments are bad. tournament players are bad.
Exactly! Exactly!
These videos show to us - with video evidence - that tournament gamers are cheaters. All of them. Not just this one, aot just the guy playing him, and not all the people we see walking on that awful carpet behind them. But all of them, collectively. I'd imagine that if you did a survey of all the people in that video tomorrow, they'd all list their greatest role models as Pol Pot and Stalin. That has nothing to do with the video, but I'm sure it's also true.
So remember folks, tournament gamers are terrorists, cheaters, support dictatorships and have no taste in carpet.
This message brought to you by the Dakka Casual Gaming Mafia - 'Because Winning is for Losers!'
People seem to be getting all up in arms over his measuring for movement, and then changing his mind. It's not like he measured to see how close the enemy was, then changed his mind.
Has no one thought they were going to move somewhere and then changed their mind? Are you a cheater if you do this? Does everyone always move their models to the exact perfect location everytime? If you pick your model up, move it and place it down, are you not ever allowed to reposition it? Are gamers really that anal?
I mean obviuosly this guy is an extreme example(the fact that he did this almost everytime), whereby he is going back to models and moving them and fidgeting. Except for the one instance where he moved the warp spider guy 19" he didn't really "cheat" with movement. (except for maybe the fire dragons-but video isn't clear)
Having said that, I would have asked him to stop it and not allowed him to go back to a squad and move them once he decided to go to a different squad. The reason for this is becuase it's too hard to remember where the original position of the models were.
I totally agree with evryone that the model movement shenanigans were akin to the "shell game", which made it incredibly hard to tell what he was doing with out benefit of the video. It's possible that all this fidgeting was a setup for his 19" spider move. I don't know.
I think these kinds of things should be called out by the tourney organizer about what you are, and not, allowed to do when it comes to these kinds of measuring.
generalgrog wrote:People seem to be getting all up in arms over his measuring for movement, and then changing his mind. It's not like he measured to see how close the enemy was, then changed his mind.
Has no one thought they were going to move somewhere and then changed their mind? Are you a cheater if you do this? Does everyone always move their models to the exact perfect location everytime? If you pick your model up, move it and place it down, are you not ever allowed to reposition it? Are gamers really that anal?
I mean obviuosly this guy is an extreme example(the fact that he did this almost everytime), whereby he is going back to models and moving them and fidgeting. Except for the one instance where he moved the warp spider guy 19" he didn't really "cheat" with movement. (except for maybe the fire dragons-but video isn't clear)
Having said that, I would have asked him to stop it and not allowed him to go back to a squad and move them once he decided to go to a different squad. The reason for this is becuase it's too hard to remember where the original position of the models were.
I totally agree with evryone that the model movement shenanigans were akin to the "shell game", which made it incredibly hard to tell what he was doing with out benefit of the video. It's possible that all this fidgeting was a setup for his 19" spider move. I don't know.
I think these kinds of things should be called out by the tourney organizer about what you are, and not, allowed to do when it comes to these kinds of measuring.
GG
While I'm not trying to suggest that I have never changed my mind about movement, I think it is a little suspect of him to continually hover his tape measure and/or arm over the table in an obvious attempt to calculate range, probably for subsequent shooting round. And no, it isnt against the rules to pre measure before you move but I would argue it against the rules, or at the very least, against the spirit of the rules to use the opportunity to measure in the movement phase as an excuse to pre measure shooting attacks.
In 40k, pages 11 and 12 specify that it is fine to measure movement for a unit, then decide to move it somewhere else, or not move it at all. However, once you move onto another unit you may not go back and change the movement decisions of the first unit.
So, premeasuring movement is fine (I was a little surprised by that too). (Bottom left of page 11)
Going back and shuffling models around after they have been moved and another unit has done a movement action is NOT ok. (Top left of page 12)
Following that logic, your aren't sure a red GW-supplied measuring stick is is right either, do you?
@Wehrkind
I don't think you are alone in your surprise.
It seems like a lot of people didn't know about premeasuring movement, and one even started making up rules about "when you have measured they will count as having moved" and silly stuff like that.
filbert wrote:While I'm not trying to suggest that I have never changed my mind about movement, I think it is a little suspect of him to continually hover his tape measure and/or arm over the table in an obvious attempt to calculate range, probably for subsequent shooting round. And no, it isnt against the rules to pre measure before you move but I would argue it against the rules, or at the very least, against the spirit of the rules to use the opportunity to measure in the movement phase as an excuse to pre measure shooting attacks.
Prove to me that he was using the tape measure to assist with his measuring shooting range? And it was hardly obvious, unless YOU want it to be.
I agree the arm trick was kind of shady, but hardly accurate. Not to mention that he moved his spiders backwards, NOT forwards.
Following that logic, your aren't sure a red GW-supplied measuring stick is is right either, do you?
I think it's fine to use it for it's designated purpose, that is to say the measurement of movement. I think I would draw the line at people leaving them lying around on the table or hovering them over the table while 'calculating' moves. But then again, I don't play competitively so this never crops up with me.
Wehrkind wrote:In 40k, pages 11 and 12 specify that it is fine to measure movement for a unit, then decide to move it somewhere else, or not move it at all. However, once you move onto another unit you may not go back and change the movement decisions of the first unit.
So, premeasuring movement is fine (I was a little surprised by that too). (Bottom left of page 11)
Going back and shuffling models around after they have been moved and another unit has done a movement action is NOT ok. (Top left of page 12)
Thank you wehrkind!! That's the kind of sanity we need here.
Frazzled wrote:But having a G9 template is ok right? Whats the difference?
I was reading this thread, and thought of that too, Frazz.
6 inch dowel rod, or 12 inch dowel with a 6 in mark.. are those BAD THINGS or GOOD THINGS?
Exactly. Of course old fashioned whippy sticks (do they still supply whippy sticks) not only are they an absolute good, but they are holy master crafted sticks of Doom, to be revered with holy scripture and unguents, especially unguents.
filbert wrote:While I'm not trying to suggest that I have never changed my mind about movement, I think it is a little suspect of him to continually hover his tape measure and/or arm over the table in an obvious attempt to calculate range, probably for subsequent shooting round. And no, it isnt against the rules to pre measure before you move but I would argue it against the rules, or at the very least, against the spirit of the rules to use the opportunity to measure in the movement phase as an excuse to pre measure shooting attacks.
Prove to me that he was using the tape measure to assist with his measuring shooting range? And it was hardly obvious, unless YOU want it to be.
I agree the arm trick was kind of shady, but hardly accurate. Not to mention that he moved his spiders backwards, NOT forwards.
GG
Well 'proving' someone is cheating is always subjective anyway since you don't know what is going on in their head and they are hardly likely to admit to it. All one can do is to look at the evidence presented and make a value judgement based on that evidence. I know nothing of the chap in question or the tournament; all I can say is it looks to me as if he is hovering his tape measure out while extended in order to aid his judgement of a subsequent shooting phase. That, however, is totally my call and my opinion. I wouldn't like to be the tourney judge having to decide since it is quite a subtle case.
Following that logic, your aren't sure a red GW-supplied measuring stick is is right either, do you?
I think it's fine to use it for it's designated purpose, that is to say the measurement of movement. I think I would draw the line at people leaving them lying around on the table or hovering them over the table while 'calculating' moves. But then again, I don't play competitively so this never crops up with me.
A fun aspect is that in the original article, the "cheater" was also accused of slow-playing.
Imagine how much slower his game would have been accused of being, had he put the ruler away after each units movement.
Following that logic, your aren't sure a red GW-supplied measuring stick is is right either, do you?
I think it's fine to use it for it's designated purpose, that is to say the measurement of movement. I think I would draw the line at people leaving them lying around on the table or hovering them over the table while 'calculating' moves. But then again, I don't play competitively so this never crops up with me.
A fun aspect is that in the original article, the "cheater" was also accused of slow-playing.
Imagine how much slower his game would have been accused of being, had he put the ruler away after each units movement.
Well quite, although I would suggest there are a myriad of ways to speed up one's play that don't involve retracting a tape measure which takes all of two seconds.
filbert wrote:
Well 'proving' someone is cheating is always subjective anyway since you don't know what is going on in their head and they are hardly likely to admit to it. All one can do is to look at the evidence presented and make a value judgement based on that evidence. I know nothing of the chap in question or the tournament; all I can say is it looks to me as if he is hovering his tape measure out while extended in order to aid his judgement of a subsequent shooting phase. That, however, is totally my call and my opinion. I wouldn't like to be the tourney judge having to decide since it is quite a subtle case.
Fair enough, but I would ask you to refer to my detailed break down of the videos, (in this very thread). I point out that the only two verified things I saw that could be considered premeasuring for shooting was the arm trick, with the spiders, and the finger measure trick with the fire dragons.
I didn't see anything with tape measure, and I watched each incident quite a few times.
Following that logic, your aren't sure a red GW-supplied measuring stick is is right either, do you?
I think it's fine to use it for it's designated purpose, that is to say the measurement of movement. I think I would draw the line at people leaving them lying around on the table or hovering them over the table while 'calculating' moves. But then again, I don't play competitively so this never crops up with me.
A fun aspect is that in the original article, the "cheater" was also accused of slow-playing.
Imagine how much slower his game would have been accused of being, had he put the ruler away after each units movement.
Well quite, although I would suggest there are a myriad of ways to speed up one's play that don't involve retracting a tape measure which takes all of two seconds.
But we are not talking about a retractable tape measure, are we? We are talking about a GW whippy stick.
Perhaps a sheath would be in order, like for a sword.
Following that logic, your aren't sure a red GW-supplied measuring stick is is right either, do you?
I think it's fine to use it for it's designated purpose, that is to say the measurement of movement. I think I would draw the line at people leaving them lying around on the table or hovering them over the table while 'calculating' moves. But then again, I don't play competitively so this never crops up with me.
A fun aspect is that in the original article, the "cheater" was also accused of slow-playing.
Imagine how much slower his game would have been accused of being, had he put the ruler away after each units movement.
Well quite, although I would suggest there are a myriad of ways to speed up one's play that don't involve retracting a tape measure which takes all of two seconds.
But we are not talking about a retractable tape measure, are we? We are talking about a GW whippy stick.
Perhaps a sheath would be in order, like for a sword.
Steelmage99 wrote:
A fun aspect is that in the original article, the "cheater" was also accused of slow-playing.
Imagine how much slower his game would have been accused of being, had he put the ruler away after each units movement.
Yes the video only shows him taking 5 minutes for his movement phases. Hardly slow.
However, we need to keep things in perspective. We only have about 12 minutes of video compared to the entire tourney. Also we don't know if he was aware that he was being flimed. If he was aware that he was being taped, he may not have done as much shenanigans, as he normally might have. Also he was being watched by spectators, we don't know if he would do more shenanigans if he wern't being watched.
All in all, the video shows enough, for me to believe all the negative stuff we are hearing about his playstyle. However we need to be carefull that we don't go off the deep end and call things cheats that aren't really cheats. For example the measuring and changing of mind during movement stuff.
As for the G9 template I only bring it off the side of the table (normally where my dead pile or the scenario is) when I'm going to use. Plus it's only 6" to begin with so you can't use it to see if you are in charge range while moving with it like you could if you just left your tape measure at 12" like our friend in seattle was doing. Just don't keep open measurements out that are over 6 inches and I'd say you should be good.
filbert wrote:
Well 'proving' someone is cheating is always subjective anyway since you don't know what is going on in their head and they are hardly likely to admit to it. All one can do is to look at the evidence presented and make a value judgement based on that evidence. I know nothing of the chap in question or the tournament; all I can say is it looks to me as if he is hovering his tape measure out while extended in order to aid his judgement of a subsequent shooting phase. That, however, is totally my call and my opinion. I wouldn't like to be the tourney judge having to decide since it is quite a subtle case.
Fair enough, but I would ask you to refer to my detailed break down of the videos, (in this very thread). I point out that the only two verified things I saw that could be considered premeasuring for shooting was the arm trick, with the spiders, and the finger measure trick with the fire dragons.
I didn't see anything with tape measure, and I watched each incident quite a few times.
GG
As I said, it is quite a subjective opinion and depends on your interpretation.
I think the whole tape measure hovering thing at around .28 seconds for example, looks suspicious to me. However, the caveat to that is that it is my opinion. I wouldn't like to make a judgement call in an official tourney just based on that.
those GW Red Whippy Sticks are RARELY marked correctly. My AOBR sticks have a 14inch 12inch mark.. but the BFM sticks were closer to an 11in 12inch mark..
filbert wrote:
I think the whole tape measure hovering thing at around .28 seconds for example, looks suspicious to me. However, the caveat to that is that it is my opinion. I wouldn't like to make a judgement call in an official tourney just based on that.
I believe it is obvious that he is measuring to see if he wants to move the Falcon back towards his board edge. A measurement that is quite legal BTW.
filbert wrote: I think the whole tape measure hovering thing at around .28 seconds for example, looks suspicious to me. However, the caveat to that is that it is my opinion. I wouldn't like to make a judgement call in an official tourney just based on that.
I believe it is obvious that he is measuring to see if he wants to move the Falcon back towards his board edge. A measurement that is quite legal BTW.
Unless you are:
a) The player in question
or
b) psychic
then it is just your opinion and you can never say for certain what he is or isn't doing nor what he is thinking or intending. All I can offer and continue to offer is my opinion based on what I have seen. As has been posted by others, we have just a snippet of video as 'evidence' to go on, hence why I have said that I would not like to judge someone just on that fact alone. Clearly, the tournament organisers must have had further information upon which to base their decision.
filbert wrote:then it is just your opinion and you can never say for certain what he is or isn't doing nor what he is thinking or intending. All I can offer and continue to offer is my opinion based on what I have seen. As has been posted by others, we have just a snippet of video as 'evidence' to go on, hence why I have said that I would not like to judge someone just on that fact alone. Clearly, the tournament organisers must have had further information upon which to base their decision.
Yes, but the video can be used as an educational tool to help us in the future. And we need to be VERY carefull what we call cheating. And be sure that it is in fact cheating. If you want to call it gamey or beardy or cheesy, that's completely different.
All of this talk and accusation of cheating during the movement phase with his measuring tape, I believe is incorrect.
I agree some of the stuff is eye brow raising for sure. And it is a judgment call with all of the measuring. It is in the legal area...but the possible pre-measuring is a judgement call. The disembarking (5 or so inches out) and the movement of the vehicle could just have been a play error? At the level of that competition I would think someone would have called that. But sometimes you forget what moved, lotta stuff going on etc. Honest mistake? If he was playing me I would have pointed it out, and if he persisted I would have asked for a judge. In a casual game, I would just tell him, if he persisted, eh.....just casual. I would chalk it up to a guy to watch when I play...and not play him much. I have plenty of honest players to play.
Yes, but the video can be used as an educational tool to help us in the future. And we need to be VERY carefull what we call cheating. And be sure that it is in fact cheating. If you want to call it gamey or beardy or cheesy, that's completely different.
All of this talk and accusation of cheating during the movement phase with his measuring tape, I believe is incorrect.
GG
If the video is to be used as examples of what not to do or what to avoid then I would humbly suggest picking only the most obvious and unambiguous examples. And yes, I would agree that the issue we have been discussing, that of the tape measure fudging, is not clear cut enough. I suppose what it boils down to is that personally, if the chap I was playing against did that, then I would probably have a word. However, as I have said, I don't play competitively and no-one I know has ever tried anything like that before.
generalgrog wrote:
I agree the arm trick was kind of shady, but hardly accurate. Not to mention that he moved his spiders backwards, NOT forwards.
while this argument might have me convinced (especially if it was from the player in question). We have missed something important, look at the army he is playing against. Space Marines, in combination with his "arm trick" he might have realized that hey my spiders are in rapid fire range... i should move them backwards an inch, then they can't get assaulted either. The other side of it, is he moves backwards, and more than likely put more then half the unit in cover against those heavy bolter turrets on all those Razorbacks.
Movement cheating is NOT always moving FORWARD, you can cheat by moving BACKWARDS just as easy.
As was discussed (ad nauseum?) in this and the other thread... going back and moving models that he already moved (even if still under their total move distance!) is not supported by the rules and could easily be called cheating. He does this over and over!
Add to it the arm measuring trick, and moving at least one model blatantly farther than it should have been... it's an open and shut case imho (and in most other people's, too).
RiTides wrote:As was discussed (ad nauseum?) in this and the other thread... going back and moving models that he already moved (even if still under their total move distance!) is not supported by the rules and could easily be called cheating. He does this over and over!
Add to it the arm measuring trick, and moving at least one model blatantly farther than it should have been... it's an open and shut case imho (and in most other people's, too).
No one has said he didn't cheat.
The issue is, is premeasuring movement distance, and then changing your mind a cheat. This clearly is not cheating, and in fact supported by page 11 of the rule book.
I quote page 11---"It is perfectly fine to measure a unit's move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the oposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it all."
RiTides wrote:As was discussed (ad nauseum?) in this and the other thread... going back and moving models that he already moved (even if still under their total move distance!) is not supported by the rules and could easily be called cheating. He does this over and over!
Add to it the arm measuring trick, and moving at least one model blatantly farther than it should have been... it's an open and shut case imho (and in most other people's, too).
No one has said he didn't cheat.
The issue is, is premeasuring movement distance, and then changing your mind a cheat. This clearly is not cheating, and in fact supported by page 11 of the rule book.
I quote page 11---"It is perfectly fine to measure a unit's move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the oposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it all."
That's an exact quote from the rulebook.
GG
True, you can choose where or if to move while you have the tape measurer out. However you Cannot start moving one unit (by measuring distances) but choose to not move it and leave it in place, then move a different unit, then go back to the first unit to finish its movement.
filbert wrote:
I think the whole tape measure hovering thing at around .28 seconds for example, looks suspicious to me. However, the caveat to that is that it is my opinion. I wouldn't like to make a judgement call in an official tourney just based on that.
I believe it is obvious that he is measuring to see if he wants to move the Falcon back towards his board edge. A measurement that is quite legal BTW.
Unless you are:
a) The player in question
or
b) psychic
then it is just your opinion and you can never say for certain what he is or isn't doing nor what he is thinking or intending. All I can offer and continue to offer is my opinion based on what I have seen. As has been posted by others, we have just a snippet of video as 'evidence' to go on, hence why I have said that I would not like to judge someone just on that fact alone. Clearly, the tournament organisers must have had further information upon which to base their decision.
Or
C) You know more of the background of what happened in the previous tourneys, LGS, and other events and know of him personally.
It sucks that on the internet and EVEN with a video - its still only a 'fragment' of reality. Or rather a snapshot that can still be very opinionated.
But we are on all ends of the world. Things I suppose can be subjective.
Washington local gamers know who he is. Know what he does. I'm just glad hes put away.
All I can say. Hard to point fingers at him, and explain to people around the world especially if you haven't met the shady guy himself.
So - i leave my food for thought. Whether you think he cheated or not. We over here in the rainy state are very happy.
A website we designed for him/made for him (in which he did not fully pay - don't ask how he got the files. Friend uploaded via FTP, and he password change/jacked. Stupid friend.):
Demogerg wrote:True, you can choose where or if to move while you have the tape measurer out. However you Cannot start moving one unit (by measuring distances) but choose to not move it and leave it in place, then move a different unit, then go back to the first unit to finish its movement.
You must move each unit one at a time.
I of course allready said as much a few times, however I did look at the rule book on page 12, earlier, and didn't see any specific ruling saying you couldn't do this. Does someone with a rulebook handy have rule quote that says such a thing?
Demogerg wrote:True, you can choose where or if to move while you have the tape measurer out. However you Cannot start moving one unit (by measuring distances) but choose to not move it and leave it in place, then move a different unit, then go back to the first unit to finish its movement.
You must move each unit one at a time.
I of course allready said as much a few times, however I did look at the rule book on page 12, earlier, and didn't see any specific ruling saying you couldn't do this. Does someone with a rulebook handy have rule quote that says such a thing?
GG
i think what he did while it may be questionable legality for his own units, he shuffled re-aranged his move to better suit himself against his opponent. I think he realized that if he shuffled himself around, his spiders would have a better chance of surviving all those tanks shooting at them, and give them a better cover save. also it would bring him just outside of charge range as well. I think that you guys have focused on what he's doing too much to the point you forgot there was another army on the table, and we need to look at both sides of the table.
I think he did what did to change the outcome of what his opponent could do, not what he could do. He made a poor judgement call and left his spiders a little too out in the open, he decided he didn't want them chewed up by razorback fire so he shuffled them back and changed his mind. Thats where the shadiness comes into play. While he kept everything in legal moving distance for the unit, he moved the unit, started to move on, did his arm trick, and then re-shuffled his unit. extra shady i would tell him to knock it off, once the unit is moved and he's started messuring for another unit, he needs to be stuck with his original move.
hcordes wrote: i think what he did while it may be questionable legality for his own units, he shuffled re-aranged his move to better suit himself against his opponent. I think he realized that if he shuffled himself around, his spiders would have a better chance of surviving all those tanks shooting at them, and give them a better cover save. also it would bring him just outside of charge range as well. I think that you guys have focused on what he's doing too much to the point you forgot there was another army on the table, and we need to look at both sides of the table.
I think he did what did to change the outcome of what his opponent could do, not what he could do. He made a poor judgement call and left his spiders a little too out in the open, he decided he didn't want them chewed up by razorback fire so he shuffled them back and changed his mind. Thats where the shadiness comes into play. While he kept everything in legal moving distance for the unit, he moved the unit, started to move on, did his arm trick, and then re-shuffled his unit. extra shady i would tell him to knock it off, once the unit is moved and he's started messuring for another unit, he needs to be stuck with his original move.
All of that is perfectly legal, except for the part about coming back to the unit once you have allready moved another unit.
Remember that warp spiders can make a second jump in the assault phase, so being charged is nonissue for them. Also if you look, his seer council appears to have been killed by the death company.
Steelmage99 wrote:What blatant pre-measuring do you refer to, DD?
I know how to pre-measure, and he's definitely pre-measuring prior to shooting. He's using his forearm, hand and extended tape measure to check distances to enemy units while he's moving things around.
And, no, I'm not watching that dbag on video again and timing things for your convenience. However, I do invite you to go through the video and see where he's using body parts and the tape measure to check distances to enemy units.
If you don't see it, then you're either naive about how to indirectly pre-measure, or being facetious in your post to me.
Steelmage99 wrote:What blatant pre-measuring do you refer to, DD?
I know how to pre-measure, and he's definitely pre-measuring prior to shooting. He's using his forearm, hand and extended tape measure to check distances to enemy units while he's moving things around.
And, no, I'm not watching that dbag on video again and timing things for your convenience. However, I do invite you to go through the video and see where he's using body parts and the tape measure to check distances to enemy units.
If you don't see it, then you're either naive about how to indirectly pre-measure, or being facetious in your post to me.
I.E... you have nothing.
GG
edit..by the way your completley wrong here. No where does he use the tape measure to premeasure shooting during the movement phase. He definately is using body parts though.
Demogerg wrote:True, you can choose where or if to move while you have the tape measurer out. However you Cannot start moving one unit (by measuring distances) but choose to not move it and leave it in place, then move a different unit, then go back to the first unit to finish its movement.
You must move each unit one at a time.
I of course allready said as much a few times, however I did look at the rule book on page 12, earlier, and didn't see any specific ruling saying you couldn't do this. Does someone with a rulebook handy have rule quote that says such a thing?
GG
The rulebook says you select and move one unit at a time. As part of that move, you can change your mind. Nowhere does it allow you to go back.
If you're getting into "specific rulings saying you couldn't do this", then I invite you to find the specific ruling saying I cannot insert steel-toed boot through his rectum and into his colon.
JohnHwangDD wrote:
The rulebook says you select and move one unit at a time. As part of that move, you can change your mind. Nowhere does it allow you to go back.
If you're getting into "specific rulings saying you couldn't do this", then I invite you to find the specific ruling saying I cannot insert steel-toed boot through his rectum and into his colon.
Dude, nowhere am I looking for permission to do this. I was just looking for something more concrete than "My friend Bubba said that his friend JohnnyWangDD said you couldn't"
Steelmage99 wrote:What blatant pre-measuring do you refer to, DD?
I know how to pre-measure, and he's definitely pre-measuring prior to shooting. He's using his forearm, hand and extended tape measure to check distances to enemy units while he's moving things around.
And, no, I'm not watching that dbag on video again and timing things for your convenience. However, I do invite you to go through the video and see where he's using body parts and the tape measure to check distances to enemy units.
If you don't see it, then you're either naive about how to indirectly pre-measure, or being facetious in your post to me.
I.E... you have nothing.
GG
edit..by the way your completley wrong here. No where does he use the tape measure to premeasure shooting during the movement phase. He definately is using body parts though.
No, I'm not wasting my time.
He's using the extended tape measure, waving it about. Believe me, if we were to play a game, and you allow me do as he does, you won't get a single charge off, nor will I ever be out of range when I shoot. I've played against serious cheats before, and I know the tricks that he's using. Don't be naive or tell me I don't know an out-and-out cheater when I see one. ___
Oh, yeah, name-calling only weakens your arugment.
It's also a direct, deliberate violation of Rule 1.
He's using the extended tape measure, waving it about. Believe me, if we were to play a game, and you allow me do as he does, you won't get a single charge off, nor will I ever be out of range when I shoot. I've played against serious cheats before, and I know the tricks that he's using. Don't be naive or tell me I don't know an out-and-out cheater when I see one.
To be fair, this is the same thing I was pointing out and discussing a couple of pages back and I got shot down too. Depends if you think he is using the right to be able to measure in the movement phase as a way to cheat at guessing during the shooting phase. I would argue that you only need to measure once or twice before deciding whether or not to move a unit; you don't need to hover the tape over the table while 'contemplating'.
RogueMarket wrote:, i think the rulebook should have a rule to sayzzz dunt cheeatssss.
If that's directed at me, I don't think it's funny or fair. We have allready proven that the misconception of measuring and changing your mind about movement to be false, even though people were assuming that it was a cheat.
Ahhhh the good old internet being hard to tell intent thing. Next thing you know I'm gonna go all out and start accusing you of calling me names and quoting dakka rule #1 and such.
We're going to try this again. A public warning has previously been made and that applies to ALL parties. Everyone move forward or its not going to be pretty. Frazzled
Wow. generalgrog makes say something which someone else reads as an attack (which it was't) and suddenly we're getting thread-wide warnings. Talk about over-reacting.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Wow. generalgrog makes say something which someone else reads as an attack (which it was't) and suddenly we're getting thread-wide warnings. Talk about over-reacting.
It beats thread wide taserings, although not nearly as satisfying...
Secret footage of insaniak testing new mod techniques.
I still remember the epic 2004 "flamethrower incident." Good times, good times. Its getting now a mod can't even randomly pick a name and have football hooligans sent to their house, just because.
Frazzled wrote:I still remember the epic 2004 "flamethrower incident." Good times, good times. Its getting now a mod can't even randomly pick a name and have football hooligans sent to their house, just because.
Frazzled wrote:I still remember the epic 2004 "flamethrower incident." Good times, good times. Its getting now a mod can't even randomly pick a name and have football hooligans sent to their house, just because.
I could suggest a few...
Yea but you're on Aussie time and these guys are union. We don't have that kind of budget-after all fine wine and Cuban cigars for the mods aren't free you know.
He's using the extended tape measure, waving it about. Believe me, if we were to play a game, and you allow me do as he does, you won't get a single charge off, nor will I ever be out of range when I shoot. I've played against serious cheats before, and I know the tricks that he's using. Don't be naive or tell me I don't know an out-and-out cheater when I see one.
To be fair, this is the same thing I was pointing out and discussing a couple of pages back and I got shot down too. Depends if you think he is using the right to be able to measure in the movement phase as a way to cheat at guessing during the shooting phase. I would argue that you only need to measure once or twice before deciding whether or not to move a unit; you don't need to hover the tape over the table while 'contemplating'.
I suspect he was there. Places he left the tape etc. Called a couple of people recently on similar-but-perhaps-without-the-intent behaviour during games of Fantasy. When doing their movement, they would extend the tape to several inches in excess of their movement, and place it on the table before sliding the unit back and forth along it's length to determine their final position. Clearly this is pretty naughty, but a common bit of cheating-without-intent, possibly best called poor sportsmanship. It's irritating enough when they do this with the tape extended to their full movement value, as even then you get a decent idea of how far away the enemy is. But either way, I would lump it under premeasuring. As I said to them, if you do that, however absent mindedly (I've done it before as well) then it's only fair to move the full distance you have measured, or your full movement, whichever is less.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: it's only fair to move the full distance you have measured, or your full movement, whichever is less.
I was aware of the no-premeasuring rule for the shooting/assault phase, but I was under the impression that you could premeasure your distance in the movement phase. What you're suggesting is guessing how far you want to move the unit before moving them. Have I been playing wrongly?
Yes and no. In Fantasy, you have to guess whether or not you are in charge range, and declare accordingly, so I feel the same applies to movement.
Even if it's not cheating, I would definitely call it unsporting, especially if you decide to move less than you first did. However extending the tape measure beyond your maximum possible movement is definitely getting a bit cheaty.
But that's purely my own opinion. As long as it's within the rules, you enjoy the game how you want to!
Pika_power wrote:
I was aware of the no-premeasuring rule for the shooting/assault phase, but I was under the impression that you could premeasure your distance in the movement phase. What you're suggesting is guessing how far you want to move the unit before moving them. Have I been playing wrongly?
Yes the rules allow you to premeasure and change your mind with no penalty during the movement phase. See my earlier post on the subject and or page 11 of the rulebook.
MDG is talking about fantasy battles, and I don't what the rules say there.
No pre-measure when declaring charges....(unless you are Frenzied, as if you are in range, you must charge. Which is why Frenzied units do this AFTER all other Charges are declared) Otherwise it doesn't actually say, so I guess sliding around is allowed.
So yeah, as I said, if you do wish to slide your troops, only extend the tape as far as your maximum move, otherwise I would be quite aggrieved!
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: *snip* ...When doing their movement, they would extend the tape to several inches in excess of their movement, and place it on the table before sliding the unit back and forth along it's length to determine their final position. Clearly this is pretty naughty, but a common bit of cheating-without-intent, possibly best called poor sportsmanship. It's irritating enough when they do this with the tape extended to their full movement value, as even then you get a decent idea of how far away the enemy is. But either way, I would lump it under premeasuring. As I said to them, if you do that, however absent mindedly (I've done it before as well) then it's only fair to move the full distance you have measured, or your full movement, whichever is less.
Hi Mad Doc,
I see what you're saying in your last post (not the one I quoted). Only extending the tape as far as their maximum move. But if they wanted to move less than their max, I would think it's still OK to have the tape out to their maximum move distance. Otherwise, if when moving you decide you want to go a little farther, you wouldn't know how far to go... right?
I'm still just starting fantasy so maybe you're right. I think the only time I have had the tape extended part of the way is when manuevering a monster... I.e. 3" this way, wheel, then 5" this way, etc... the rest of the time I believe I extend it the full distance so I know where I can move my guys (especially with units like skirmishers, where I'm moving each model and need to know how far they can go).
Actually, it's in one of the rulebook FAQs. Specifically stating that you can measure during the movement phase to see if your units can go where you want them to and you can check different positions no problem.
Perhaps this has been asked before but what about Inquisitorial Stormtroopers that have the Targeters which allow them to premeasure? Is it still valid at this time until a new Codex (yeah, right)?
Maxstreel wrote:Perhaps this has been asked before but what about Inquisitorial Stormtroopers that have the Targeters which allow them to premeasure? Is it still valid at this time until a new Codex (yeah, right)?
I don't see why not, since the codex is still legal.
garret wrote:i was reading an article on bols on cheating and i was wondering what are some good ways to spot cheaters.
do any vets who probaly played enough games to know about this have anygood tips on spotting cheaters.
and how to deal with them if you do catch them.
Ppl flopping their hand or fore arm near the table.
Chances are they are premeasuring by comparing with their arm length which they already measured.
Though im rather confused to why people need to do that as simple math can easily determine distance
especially most tables are the same size.
what do you mean by flopping? cause I lean on the table but that's because I'm lazy not because I'm premeasuring
jwolf wrote:
Picking up hits instead of misses.
That one's a little unfair because I generally pick up whatever is the least so if I rolled a ton of misses out of 36 dice or whatever I'll pick up hits to save time. Though I play with friends where we all trust each other so I guess cheatings never been an issue there though I have to agree with the earlier post that if you have to cheat at 40K you might need to find a life.
rule stretch for wound allocation in multi wound units (knobs, battle suits) I think this a great suggestion, and i will be using this method in all upcoming games.
