So, GW released the new Tyranids codex with all-new models and the promises that they will "evolve to deal with those nasty tanks" in a heavily mechanized metagame.

The Tyranids got improved Zoanthropes and a single unit that competes for the most populated slot in the army (Elites) that has the only gun in the entire army capable of reliably taking out light tanks, the Hive Guard.


As a result, Hive Guards are sold out nationwide and are not be expected to be replenished until late March.


Meanwhile, IG Veteran squads everywhere rock 3 meltaguns per troop choice. Of course, they get to ride around in those same cars that Tyranids hate. Let's not even mention long fangs, powerklaws, chainfists, and all the other books in the game.


Bravo, GW.

Mmmkay?

Death Leaper's on the same backorder, and Chimeras are on a 1-2 week backorder right now.

*Corrected a mistake on the Chimeras. Death Leaper's on 3-4 week backorder, Chimeras 1-2. Whoops.

Kanluwen wrote:Mmmkay?

Death Leaper's on the same backorder, and Chimeras are on a 3-4 week backorder right now.

I would have listed Deathleaper, but he's been on backorder since December so it's not newsworthy. Of course, it doesn't help that he's our primary form of defense against Jaws of the World Wolf, a psychic power which specializes in turning off Tyranid armies (and thus a wildly popular option, second only to Hive Guard).

Kanluwen wrote:Mmmkay?
Chimeras are on a 3-4 week backorder right now.

Chimeras are on backorder because a new kit is coming out

So it really has NOTHING to do with any real news, just that different things are on a different shipping schedule.

It's always possible that the molds were damaged somehow, or there were casting issues. It happened back in the days of metal Scouts, where one particular Bolter equipped Scout(leaning back, with a sling wrapped around his left hand and firing with his right) suddenly vanished from blisters for a matter of months.

The reason? An issue with the mold was causing the sling to be miscast and the models had to be trashed till the mold was fixed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vhalyar wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Mmmkay?
Chimeras are on a 3-4 week backorder right now.

Chimeras are on backorder because a new kit is coming out

In March, yes.
The Chimera is expected to ship in "1 to 2 weeks".

Which is early/mid February.

Oh no. Guard is raping. Wait, what?

Sounds like someone has a case of the codex grumps.

Kurgash wrote:Sounds like someone has a case of the codex grumps.

hahaha +1

this is not news especially since hive guard are 'available to ship within 24 hours', i also dont get why so many people are complaining the codex doesnt give you obvious unit choices which is a good thing, it means the codex was written properly and that we arent going to see the same list builds.

also people are contradicting themeselve (read: the community) e.g. :

"gw really need to write better codecies! :("
response: "introducing the tyranid codex its well written and there's no ovbious unit choice!"

"WHAT THATS NOT FAIR THEY'RE SLAUGHTERING MY CARNIFEXS TO SUIT THE CODEXS' NEEDS!!! WAHWAHWAH "

Anybody got any cheese? Because I've found a rich vein of whine here...

Broken Loose wrote:So, GW released the new Tyranids codex with all-new models and the promises that they will "evolve to deal with those nasty tanks" in a heavily mechanized metagame.

The Tyranids got improved Zoanthropes...(yadda yadda hadda)...

As a result, Hive Guards are sold out nationwide and are not be expected to be replenished until late March.[/url]

Hummm...following your logic...A symptom of a 'bad' codex is sold out models? Its not wonder GW keeps writing bad codexes!

Well, yes, there shouldn't be one model that EVERYONE NEEDS, all units should be more or less equally viable.

I'm not a nid player, but from what I understand, Isn't the Tyragon a lethal tank killer? I could be wrong, as I don't know much about bugs.

brother_zach wrote:I'm not a nid player, but from what I understand, Isn't the Tyragon a lethal tank killer? I could be wrong, as I don't know much about bugs.

It has the potential to, yes, but it can't assault on the turn it arrives from Deep Strike. That somewhat hurts it a bit (though I still think Trygon Primes are awesome). They do have a S5 shooting attack that fires a lot of shots (huge amount if it's a Prime), so you might be able to bust open the back of a tank with that if you're lucky.

i'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that IT'S A COMPLETELY NEW UNIT AND COOL MODEL AND THAT PEOPLE HAVE HAD THE LAST 5-10 YEARS TO BUY ZOANTHROPES, WARRIORS, GARGOYLES, CARNIFEXES, TYRANTS, etc. on a similar vein, i suspect that thunderwolf cav will sell out initially if GW decides to make them and i guess you'll think that the SW codex is an epic fail too then.

CAPS FOR THE WIN!!!

Dark Helmet: So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

Neith wrote:

brother_zach wrote:I'm not a nid player, but from what I understand, Isn't the Tyragon a lethal tank killer? I could be wrong, as I don't know much about bugs.

It has the potential to, yes, but it can't assault on the turn it arrives from Deep Strike. That somewhat hurts it a bit (though I still think Trygon Primes are awesome). They do have a S5 shooting attack that fires a lot of shots (huge amount if it's a Prime), so you might be able to bust open the back of a tank with that if you're lucky.

Doesen't sound too bad. Considering that theres a kit for a decent price for the model as well, I think GW did ok this time.

If anybody needs more hive guard, my friend who owns a store has 19 of em.

There's probably plenty available at the various online retailers.

So, given that this Nid book will be around for at least 4 year, probably 5 or 6 years, a delay in the availability of single model makes the Codex "poorly-balanced"?

Have I captured the gist of the OP?

It seems to me that, having to wait years for the Wave Serpent, Defiler, and Drop Pod models, a couple months wait for the current hotness of the month isn't so terrible.

And model availiabilty doesn't have anything to do with Codex balance, as far as I'm aware. Perhaps one could take a page from the above 3 exampls and convert something?

ph34r wrote:Well, yes, there shouldn't be one model that EVERYONE NEEDS, all units should be more or less equally viable.

And of course, the fact that the Hive Guard is one of the new releases for the codex has nothing at all to do with elevated demand for it...

Bookwrack wrote:

ph34r wrote:Well, yes, there shouldn't be one model that EVERYONE NEEDS, all units should be more or less equally viable.

And of course, the fact that the Hive Guard is one of the new releases for the codex has nothing at all to do with elevated demand for it...

Yes, because they're clearly sold out of trygons, pyrovores, venomthropes, raveners, and gargoyles.

I got a Deathleaper two weeks ago, so I don't think they've been sold out since December.

That observation makes no sense. Trygons are a "must have" unit and they aren't sold out.

Also, how is DL on backorder since December? I ordered one when I ordered the codex 2 weeks ago and he arrived in 4 days along with my codex.

Perhaps GW made fewer Hive Guard than they thought the would need? I will probably pick some up for my army at some point but I still don't see them being a must-have. Have to love how coincidence = bad rules or a bad codex.

It's almost as if an army can only field three Trygons max, while Hive Guard max out at some higher number. It might even be something like Three Times as many.

Tyranids have some of the best troops in the game.

I bought my deathleaper in medusa V period. Happy days for me

Broken Loose wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:

ph34r wrote:Well, yes, there shouldn't be one model that EVERYONE NEEDS, all units should be more or less equally viable.

And of course, the fact that the Hive Guard is one of the new releases for the codex has nothing at all to do with elevated demand for it...

Yes, because they're clearly sold out of trygons, pyrovores, venomthropes, raveners, and gargoyles.

I know you're trying to be relevant, but you're going to have to try harder. GW cannot draw a casting circle on the ground and summon infinity models. They have to plan a production schedule, and if something is more popular than they expected, there will be a shortage. The fact that they have plenty of the other kits means either a: they did a better job of estimating demand, or b: time or other circumstances meant Hive Guard had a shorter production run, hence fewer models on release.

BY THE POWERS OF THE PLASTIC GODS

TRYGON, I SUMMON THEE IN A BULK BOX OF FIFTY!


^
That's exactly how Games Workshop's "casting" process works, no matter what Bookwrack tells you!

I always figured that they'd bargained for miniatures with the Dark Gods of Chaos using the souls of their fans as currency.

No no no... They Eat the souls for sustenance. They merely use our Blood to bargain with.

Well I think we can probably hazard a guess as to why Pyrovores aren't selling. Just look at their rules...

Honestly, I don't think Pyrovores are Bad per say, they're just Infantry killers in an army that doesn't need to buy stuff for the purpose of killing Infantry. Same reason I'll probably never use a T-Fex with the acid gun, even though the acid gun is rather quite nice.

They're awful Aduro. Truly awful. Let me break it down for you.

45 points (and an Elite slot) nets you a creautre with a Heavy Flamer and a Power Weapon. And Acid Blood as well as a nice bonus. Ok, sounds pretty good on the outset, right?

Then you look at its stats:

WS3. Hmm... so he is worse than a Marine in HTH. That's unexpected. Well he probably has loads of attacks to make up for it - I mean, he has a Power Weapon, so they'll let him get some mileage out of it, right?

A1. Ok, wait... so, WS3 with 1 Power Weapon attack? Ok, well then it'll be a single big hit, S6+, so he can tackle people and vehicles. That'll be it, right?

S4. So, 45 points for one WS3 S4 power weapon attack? Ok, well, he's probably tough enough to at least make it up the table and get into HTH, right?

T4. Uhh... so no tougher than a Marine, despite being half the size of a Razorback. Ok... but y'know, his armour will keep him safe for sure, right? I mean look at the thing - it's huge!

Sv4+. But that means... with T4 heavy bolters will just carve him up. Ok then, he'll have heaps of wounds - loads of flufftastic synaptic redundancies to show how much damage he can take, right?

W2. Guess not. But he'll be able to cause loads of damage before dying, won't he?

I1. Uhh... so he swings last... assuming he ever swings at all, given he's WS3 T4 W2 with a 4+ save.

So 135 points nets you 3 models that take up an Elite slot and will die to 13 and a half Heavy Bolter shots (assuming no cover). This unit deftly slays 1.5 Marines on the charge... actually, they don't, because half of them will die before they even get to swing. They're also competing with Zoanthropes, Hive Guard and Death Leapers.

They're not just 'bad per se', they're irredeemably terrible. They are, I'm fairly certain, the single worst choice in the Codex. What in the high holy feth was Arby thinking when he wrote that entry? Was he high on something? Coming down off something, what? I know every Codex gets it's new thing that sucks terribly (Spawn, Flash Gitz, Possessed, Penal Legionnaires, Punishers, and so on) but Jesus... wasn't this obvious? GW really do design units in a vacuum...

And it's a pity too, as I adore the new model.

I don't know why people keep on complaining about how the nid codex is so bad, just because you can't run stupid OP lists anymore because the codex is balanced out. A lot of people are like "oh know! I have to many unit choices, so i can't run unbalanced lists anymore, i actually have to use my mind to make a competitive list because of all 33 unit choices I have!"
I would love to have such a diverse army for my inquisition...We can pretty much only make 1 competitive build same with CSM (to my knowledge)

What you get are three Heavy Flamers dropping in on the enemy and lighting them up. 13 Heavy Bolter shots is A Lot of Heavy Bolter shots, especially as I rarely see anyone take them now days, baring the occasional Razorback. If your Spod didn't deviate bad, then they also risk Asplosions if they hit them with any Str 8 guns, so they've got to expend the amount of small arms fire to kill them.

And yes, they suck in HtH, but anything that attacks them is risking it's own death because of their Acid Blood. You actually cause More damage with your death in HtH than with your actual attacks.

Despite not being really Bad, I don't think the unit is particularly Good either, and I don't think I'd ever take it, not when the other Elites are Awesome. It's a specialized unit that fills a role `Nids don't have to make the extra effort to specialize in.

I think you're supposed to use them like an EXPENSIVE spore mine(haha).
Drop them in a pod or suicide run a mob.
Then have something else to clean up.

I'll be honest here: I overreacted to just about every aspect of this codex.

>ZOMG the abilities are amazing! -> Approriate point increases

>ZOMG gaunts can outshoot space marines! -> for 10 points a piece

>FAIL TOWN, my Fex's are all worthless! -> They can still fire 12 S6 shots a turn twinlinked, from a drop pod no less.

>Nid's can pop vehicles now? No way, they're an assault army! -> So Orks shouldn't get Rokkit launchas?

>That's a crazy powerful unit for a decent cost, way to go Cruddance! -> Oh wait, it's T4... Or better yet: oh wait, its only got a 3+ save... (As God forbid we start taking FREE missile launchers in each tac squad)

>Etc. etc. etc.

If you're honestly worried about not having hive guard in time... take those old venom cannons for you warriors, stick the flesh hooks on the top and hit the head of the model and the middle of the gun with some green stuff. BAM, a hive guard for 1/3 the cost.

Aduro wrote:What you get are three Heavy Flamers dropping in on the enemy and lighting them up. 13 Heavy Bolter shots is A Lot of Heavy Bolter shots, especially as I rarely see anyone take them now days, baring the occasional Razorback.

Oh wow. Now we're at 175 points for 3 Flamers that will last a turn. And you don't need Heavy Bolters - I was simply pointing out the most efficient way of killing them. Bolters/Shootas/ShuriCats will do. Pulse Rifles will dominate.

They are a terrible irredeemable unit with no good points at all.

Aduro wrote:You actually cause More damage with your death in HtH than with your actual attacks.

I'd rather do lots of damage in life than have something that's really good when they die.

And, again, they're competing against Zoanthropes.

H.B.M.C. wrote:They are a terrible irredeemable unit with no good points at all.

I tend to agree with you there.
As a unit, they are pretty god awful, but the model could have life being a slightly different/interesting biovore. A squad of 3 biovores is not bad at all in the current 'Nid 'dex. Those of you who were about to throw your new pyrovore model out the window because HMBC made you understand how much their written rules suck might want to consider trying out a counts as.
Just a thought.

There is a place, where armies exist that are not MEQS.

Many of these fabled armies have saves that are 4+ or lower.

Pyrovores are pretty effective at doing what they are designed to do.

That group of eldar pathfinders ruining your day because they wound your hive tyrant and guard on 4+ and rend on 6s? Here's a magic trick for you, spore pod drops, *Fwoosh* no more pathfinders.

They may not surive long after, but they've accomplished their job. It's kind of like Flamers of Tzeench, they die after they come down, but everyone fears their arrival. Nothing gets into an opponents head quite so much as a unit that can land anywhere on the board and kill an entire unit of troops. it changes the way they deploy and move.

Now, you may not take Pyrovores for a number of reasons. The Mech heavy meta game may be why, or you may face nothing but MEQs in your meta. That's not a failing on the part of the Tyranid Codex, it's the people who choose to play their lists in that manner. If you run up against green tide, 9 Pyrovores would be a great alpha strike to start sending it's way to a green trickle.

I'm hoping either the new Necron, DE, or Tau codex (or all three) are well done and chew armor up for breakfast, to help swing the meta game from it's ultra mech current state back towards a more balanced approach.

"I'm hoping either the new Necron, DE, or Tau codex (or all three) are well done and chew armor up for breakfast, to help swing the meta game from it's ultra mech current state back towards a more balanced approach."

HAHA those armies are never comming out, wel maybe eldar next year, but it's BA and then fantasy 8th. BT and DA still have to come as well. The other xenos to come out before 6th is eldar. I hate to be this guy but I've lost hope.

That seems wrong to me, since the general cycle is MEQ/non-MEQ/MEQ/non-MEQ.

Iboshi2 wrote:As a unit, they are pretty god awful, but the model could have life being a slightly different/interesting biovore.

Hell yes! The model's great. I'm not fan of the Misanthrope or whatever it's called, but the Pyrovore and Hive Guard are two new models I think are really cool. Given that they took the 'Trygon' from epic and turned it from a giant Baneblade-esque super-heavy HTH combat slug thing and made it a much smaller snake-like creature, surely they could have done the same within with the Exocrine from Epic, reduced its size, and given us the Exocrine Bio-Artillery, armed with a Bio-Cannon, using what we now have as the Pyrovore. That would have worked fine!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroot Loops wrote:There is a place, where armies exist that are not MEQS.

Many of these fabled armies have saves that are 4+ or lower.

Which has all of nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

Kroot Loops wrote:Pyrovores are pretty effective at doing what they are designed to do.

If that role is 'dying horribly and quickly', then yes, you're 100% on the money.

Kroot Loops wrote:They may not surive long after, but they've accomplished their job.

Or go spend those 175 points on something else. Pathfinders also suck in HTH, so just attack them in HTH with something that's faster and more numerous (therefore it can make it there). Hell, a unit of 20 T-Gants in a Pod will do. Land, shoot, take return fire, move again, shoot, charge. Bye bye Pathfinders.

Kroot Loops wrote:The Mech heavy meta game may be why, or you may face nothing but MEQs in your meta. That's not a failing on the part of the Tyranid Codex, it's the people who choose to play their lists in that manner.

This isn't about meta. This isn't about MEQ's. This is about a unit that has undeniably bad stats and a huge price tag taking up an Elite slot and wasting a perfectly good new model.

45pts isn't that bad.

Seriously, it's like deep striking some heavy flamers. Surely you can see the tactial application that can be utilised there? Personally, I would find them to be very useful as one shot creature. (Not that I would ever consider collecting those filthy xenos) Heavy-Flamers against anything short of an MEQ is going to hurt.

I'm not saying it's a win-all unit. (There ARE other options, y'know) But it does have it's place. It's not as bad as you're painting it out to be.

@Broken Loose: So you are mad because IG do what they do best, be shooty, and Tyranids don't do it better? Nids aren't a shooty army, they are a CC army that has some cool shooty stuff. MCs are still your best, and most reliable, method of dealing with tanks. So what? That is the way it should be.

Makes sense. Only if 'Nids became the new Tau would they be worthy of much Nerdrage.

What? The...they...? FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-

Emperors Faithful wrote:45pts isn't that bad.

Terminators cost less than that, have better stats, are better in HTH and Deep Strike without having to pay for it. Ogryn are 40 points, are T5 W3, and they have WS4 at the very least and will swing before a Pyrovore.

So yes, 45 points is that bad. Pyrovores are awful.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Seriously, it's like deep striking some heavy flamers.

Yes, 3 whole heavy flamers. Whoop-de-gak. And a whole Elite slot.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:45pts isn't that bad.

Terminators cost less than that, have better stats, are better in HTH and Deep Strike without having to pay for it. Ogryn are 40 points, are T5 W3, and they have WS4 at the very least and will swing before a Pyrovore.

So yes, 45 points is that bad. Pyrovores are awful.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Seriously, it's like deep striking some heavy flamers.

Yes, 3 whole heavy flamers. Whoop-de-gak. And a whole Elite slot.

And Terminators have only 1 Wd each, and only 1 H.Flamer in a unit of 5 that costs no less than 205 points. They also hit at I1. Whereas for these 205 points you get 3 Pyrovores and their spore pod and you have some to spare. Comparable deal, imo.

Alkasyn wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:45pts isn't that bad.

Terminators cost less than that, have better stats, are better in HTH and Deep Strike without having to pay for it. Ogryn are 40 points, are T5 W3, and they have WS4 at the very least and will swing before a Pyrovore.

So yes, 45 points is that bad. Pyrovores are awful.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Seriously, it's like deep striking some heavy flamers.

Yes, 3 whole heavy flamers. Whoop-de-gak. And a whole Elite slot.

And Terminators have only 1 Wd each, and only 1 H.Flamer in a unit of 5 that costs no less than 205 points. They also hit at I1. Whereas for these 205 points you get 3 Pyrovores and their spore pod and you have some to spare. Comparable deal, imo.

This is going to turn into a 'are pyrovores good?' debate isnt it?

Theyre not that bad, thier template weapon is good, they ignore armour saves and 45pts is reletavely cheap. I like the model too.

Yep, they aren't the best unit in the book, but they aren't the horrible unit H is trying to paint them as.

Those 20 T gants you deep struck are going to be out of synapse range and therefore highly questionable to doing what you want them too. The pyrovores will be too, but they are specifically allowed to still shoot their template even while subject to instinctive behavior-feed.

Your hung up on WS, you've complained about it with both Pyrovores and Carnifex. WS 3 still hits anything short of WS 7 on 4+. It's attack is a power weapon, and people hitting it have a chance to take a power weapon wound as well.


So like I said, not the best unit in the book, but not bad. Given the reasons you're complaining, I'm surprised you're not complaining about Biovores, they take up a heavy slot and can't kill a vehicle.

Kroot Loops wrote:Yep, they aren't the best unit in the book, but they aren't the horrible unit H is trying to paint them as.

Those 20 T gants you deep struck are going to be out of synapse range and therefore highly questionable to doing what you want them too. The pyrovores will be too, but they are specifically allowed to still shoot their template even while subject to instinctive behavior-feed.

Your hung up on WS, you've complained about it with both Pyrovores and Carnifex. WS 3 still hits anything short of WS 7 on 4+. It's attack is a power weapon, and people hitting it have a chance to take a power weapon wound as well.


So like I said, not the best unit in the book, but not bad. Given the reasons you're complaining, I'm surprised you're not complaining about Biovores, they take up a heavy slot and can't kill a vehicle.

biovores and pyrovores are indeed two of the worst units in the 'nid codex.

Why anyone would EVER take them over something else, is beyond me.

The best part is the Volatile rule: Yes sir, please hit me with an anti-Tyranid Powerfist. Ram this guy into a unit of Terminators or Tactical Marines and enjoy the fireworks.

Kroot Loops wrote:So like I said, not the best unit in the book, but not bad. Given the reasons you're complaining, I'm surprised you're not complaining about Biovores, they take up a heavy slot and can't kill a vehicle.

I agree. I think biovores are really bad, a lot worse than pyrovores, especially now that there are a lot better things you can take with a HS slot. The main thing that's deterring me form buying a pyrovore is its £20 price tag, rather expensive, and my metal model-hatred sense is telling me i shouldn't buy it because it's hard to put together.

Way I see it, he's best used for clumped up units. Mythetic Spore them behind enemy lines, drop it nice and close, flamer template and burn a whole scoring unit out of their hole. Works wonders on kroot/guard holding that one objective on the side.

Situational unit at best. Had much more promise but looks like they got kinda lazy near the end and didn't appropriate any last bit of data necessary for his stats to justify his purpose.

Kurgash wrote:Way I see it, he's best used for clumped up units. Mythetic Spore them behind enemy lines, drop it nice and close, flamer template and burn a whole scoring unit out of their hole. Works wonders on kroot/guard holding that one objective on the side.

But that means somebody isn't playing all MEQs all the time.

Next, we'll hear argument that Whirlwinds and Griffons are bad...

The Nid codex is fine. Some good, some average, some bad. The model shortage is due to the new release and the grab for all the ZOMG NEW STUFF!!!1!1! reaction. It'll come back; proxy til then.

Bad codices are the ones where there are no bad choices and stuff is undercosted and/or horribly over-powered. Space Wolves are closer to this than the Nids; they seem like a power army waiting to happen, IMO.

LeperMessiah wrote:The Nid codex is fine. Some good, some average, some bad. The model shortage is due to the new release and the grab for all the ZOMG NEW STUFF!!!1!1! reaction. It'll come back; proxy til then.

Bad codices are the ones where there are no bad choices and stuff is undercosted and/or horribly over-powered. Space Wolves are closer to this than the Nids; they seem like a power army waiting to happen, IMO.

Yep.

Most folks I know are proxying biovores and tyrant guard as hive guard for now.

Space wolves are a power army *Waiting* to happen? I proxied my BA for them and dominated fun games and tournaments from day 1

Got boring using a codex that is better at everything than others just because theyre space wolves

Broken Loose wrote:As a result, Hive Guards are sold out nationwide and are not be expected to be replenished until late March.

Huh, at my Local Gaming Store, they have about 20 of the blisters waiting to be bought, and there are like another 10 at a different LGS I go to. Maybe they're only sold out at GW?

~ [<3]

iz a kitty wrote:

Broken Loose wrote:As a result, Hive Guards are sold out nationwide and are not be expected to be replenished until late March.

Huh, at my Local Gaming Store, they have about 20 of the blisters waiting to be bought, and there are like another 10 at a different LGS I go to. Maybe they're only sold out at GW?

~ [<3]

Yeah, my stores are only sold out in HG, TG and battleforces. My mates just boughT 4 hive guard from his LGS.

Who knows could be problems shipping as well with the werdo weather everyone has been having. And as the pyrovore, it has potential if used right, personally, the way I built my Hive Fleet and play them, it is not going to make it in. But are there not many units that person A dismisses, and person B finds a niche for because of a diference in play style.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean there are many units

Some units are just bad..

Take vespids, you could use the argument of Player B having a difference in play style when he uses them

However, that difference in playstyle is called "bad list building"

A semi decent player should know how to combat drop pod flamers.. which is to block all access to your weaker units with ones that arent bothered by flamers which makes the flamers useless

imweasel wrote:Most folks I know are proxying biovores and tyrant guard as hive guard for now.

Using them for Biovores was my first, and frankly obvious thought, but I hadn't considered them for Guard... Hmmmm....

Kirasu wrote:Some units are just bad..

Take vespids, you could use the argument of Player B having a difference in play style when he uses them

However, that difference in playstyle is called "bad list building"

A semi decent player should know how to combat drop pod flamers.. which is to block all access to your weaker units with ones that arent bothered by flamers which makes the flamers useless

So now your opponent has to spend points on a shield unit that has to move with or sit with the vulnerable units (since unlike SM drop pods, you don't know when the spores will come in). Which makes a nice grouping for the mawloc to come up under. There aren't many units that can withstand AP 2 hits. And if the Mawloc pushes the units apart, it can set up the pyrovores.

Pyrovores are not comparable to vespids, because Pyrovores can accomplish something. Vespids *could* serve the same role, except half their shots will miss and don't ignore cover... and in the follow up assault you have no power weapons (or just return fire on their 5+ save)

If you don't like Pyrovores, thats fine. But they're not a worthless unit. They may be worthless for the tournaments, but I would say the vast majority of 40k players don't give a rats ass about the tournament scene, or at least not beyond the FLGS tourneys where you're not going to typically find people who shelled out money for two land raiders and six razorbacks, etc.

Random comment... My FLGS has sold out of Pyrovores twice, but still has Hive Guard on the rack. No, I don't get it either.

Simple:

Pyrovores are awesome models. I almost bought two the other day just to paint up after seeing the one the FLGS owner was working on.

Stuck to my guns though and just bought the Tyranid codex, a pair of bottles of CA superglue, and two cans of War Painter British Armour.

Kirasu wrote:

A semi decent player should know how to combat drop pod flamers.. which is to block all access to your weaker units with ones that arent bothered by flamers which makes the flamers useless

That really is not a viable option.

1) Some armies (eldar + orksies + guard + tau) simply don't have unlimited access to units that can shrug off heavy flamers

2) Even you do have those units, pay for them and deploy them protectively, you are playing right into thier hands. You have just built up almost your entire list becuase you gakking youself at the thought of 150pts worth deepstriking in somewhere.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kirasu wrote:

A semi decent player should know how to combat drop pod flamers.. which is to block all access to your weaker units with ones that arent bothered by flamers which makes the flamers useless

That really is not a viable option.

1) Some armies (eldar + orksies + guard + tau) simply don't have unlimited access to units that can shrug off heavy flamers

2) Even you do have those units, pay for them and deploy them protectively, you are playing right into thier hands. You have just built up almost your entire list becuase you gakking youself at the thought of 150pts worth deepstriking in somewhere.

You mean like Wave serpents? battle wagons? even devil fish can take heavy flamers fine.. guard tanks?

As to point 2, ive crushed many drop pod armies in large tournaments by castling.. that and/or reserve tricks is how you beat them easily.. Using your units to COUNTER your enemies is not a waste of points, its how the game is played

Mawlocs kind of change the concept of castling, since they can come up in the middle of your formation...

Also, the same way your forces don't exist in a vacume, neither do the tyranids. Zaoeys come down in one pod, pyrovores in another. One wrecks the transports, the other wrecks the troops. At the very least, worst comes to worst, pyrovores have a chance to penetrate AV 10 and glance AV 11.

Just seems like there are better options to achieve the same goal other than pyrovores.. especially in KP games you just spent 2 kps (spore pod + pyrovores) to maybe kill a unit

Atleast they are good models unlike vespids

With the above example you're prob better off just using MORE zoeys because since most armies use transports.. and most armies are 3+ save you'll most likely have 3+ save models exiting transports which is great for the Ap3 blast zoeys have

*sigh* the codex isn't at fault once again... >.>

The layout, may not be "optimal" but honestly that's really the only thing I can see "wrong" with it if you want to view it like that. Personally, I think it's fine and waiting to see how I want to build my list before I make any major purchases.

A side note, look at any major NEW item sold, when are they not sold out in the first few weeks? I mean come on, supply & demand anyone? Did we not take economics in school? I'm pretty sure if you pre-ordered you would've got them in the mail as soon as they were available. *shrug*

Peace~

Kirasu wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kirasu wrote:

A semi decent player should know how to combat drop pod flamers.. which is to block all access to your weaker units with ones that arent bothered by flamers which makes the flamers useless

That really is not a viable option.

1) Some armies (eldar + orksies + guard + tau) simply don't have unlimited access to units that can shrug off heavy flamers

2) Even you do have those units, pay for them and deploy them protectively, you are playing right into thier hands. You have just built up almost your entire list becuase you gakking youself at the thought of 150pts worth deepstriking in somewhere.

You mean like Wave serpents? battle wagons? even devil fish can take heavy flamers fine.. guard tanks?

As to point 2, ive crushed many drop pod armies in large tournaments by castling.. that and/or reserve tricks is how you beat them easily.. Using your units to COUNTER your enemies is not a waste of points, its how the game is played

You are absolutely right mate. EXCEPT the thing is, you're not building your army to counter his, you're building you're ENTIRE list to counter a FRACTION of his. Going Mech will get rid of any worries concerning Pyrovores, but then you can spen whatever you want getting stuff to take out vehichles. You're dancing around a tiny portion of hid guys, making them a very effective method of mental warfare.

@OP
They wrote the codex perfect, I love the changes. They will change the game!

I guess you only read the second half. You know the part with just numbers and pictures.

First part was amazing, did you know Marneous Calgar got his butt kicked by a huge HT with quad swords and that a marine saved his arse! Thats a game changer new Special characters!

HGuard's ICannon str 8 assault 2 6 to glance a LR.. on a side note.. if they dont need to see the target why do they need a BS? I just dont get it.

I think, Arby failed at many points with this new codex:
1. Why for heaven's sake does only one (1!) unit have fleshhooks?! Wouldn't it have made sense to give these to an army almost always assaulting?!
2. Where did the biomorphs go that allowed us to customize our units? To me at least that was a big trademark for the Nids.
3. Nids now have a horrible abundance of infantry- killers. Okay, but why are there about three weapons in the entire codex to deal with tanks?

Just off the top of my head. But somehow it feels like "OOH! Let's put many really cool and stylish new things into the Dex!!!" without giving too much thought on improvements.

Hey, as horde Orks I don't use vehicles at all excepting walkers and instead of only 2 units with really good anti-tank weaponry I have 2 units with mediocre anti-tank, one of which puts its head up its bum on the battlefield. So don't whine to me about lack of ranged anti-tank.

Culler wrote:Hey, as horde Orks I don't use vehicles at all excepting walkers and instead of only 2 units with really good anti-tank weaponry I have 2 units with mediocre anti-tank, one of which puts its head up its bum on the battlefield. So don't whine to me about lack of ranged anti-tank.

QFT

Fateweaver wrote:That observation makes no sense. Trygons are a "must have" unit and they aren't sold out.

That's because Trygon is plastic, Hive Guards are metal and take longer to make.

(edit: Wow, 3 pages already? This thread grew fast...)

Edit2: Btw, sold out models does NOT mean that a codex is automatically unbalanced, that just means people run out and buy new models.

I dont like the new nid codex.

Broodlords are not HQ
No frag nades on genestealers
Lictors pheremone trail has no effect while they are not on the board, makes no sense, they are still there, they're just hiding...

competitive lists will boil down to maxing out on Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, and maybe the deathleaper, utilizing the tervigon with gaunts for objective holding and the only real "option" in the codex is what you want to take to kill infantry...

So we have one template list, a few disconnects between fluff and rules, and a bunch of sad gamers.

Why hive guard? O.o? I wouldn't max those out at all. Maybe a unit to help but zoeys would be far better for tank hunting. The codex was designed (my opinion) to give multiple options and if you can run tactics halfway decent you won't need all the big bugs to actually be effective on the table. The combinations and powers (psychic) that can be given is amazing. The army is more about everything working together not any one unit out by itself. If you nitpick each unit apart yeah they're not as powerful as their original conterpart from last codex however put the units together and use them as one big assault organism and you begin to see how they're wanting the design and flow of the army to go. As the fluff goes one big hive mind, one goal, not many individual pieces but one massive force working together.

Peace~

ps. Writing from an iPod touch is difficult to many auto-correct errors when typing lol.

I hate how they made so many FW wannabe monsters for the book, but didnt simply make them the real monster!

Harpy--Harridan (Harpy fluff states its the size of a trygon, lol, but its stats make it smaller then a winged tyrant)
Tyrannofex--hierodule (many of the stats are the same, the weapon options are similiar with the flamer spray or big cannon, but the tyrannofex sucks)

Also, why is the toughness of the nids capped at 6? A tyranid monstrous creature, supposedly tough like a battle tank, is wounded by a plasma gun on a 3+. Meanwhile, a vehicle is 'wounded' by a plasma gun on a 3+ if it is armor 10! Tyrannofexes should have been t8.

Kanluwen wrote:BY THE POWERS OF THE PLASTIC GODS

TRYGON, I SUMMON THEE IN A BULK BOX OF FIFTY!


^
That's exactly how Games Workshop's "casting" process works, no matter what Bookwrack tells you!

Consider this sigged.

DevianID wrote:I hate how they made so many FW wannabe monsters for the book, but didnt simply make them the real monster!

Harpy--Harridan (Harpy fluff states its the size of a trygon, lol, but its stats make it smaller then a winged tyrant)
Tyrannofex--hierodule (many of the stats are the same, the weapon options are similiar with the flamer spray or big cannon, but the tyrannofex sucks)

Also, why is the toughness of the nids capped at 6? A tyranid monstrous creature, supposedly tough like a battle tank, is wounded by a plasma gun on a 3+. Meanwhile, a vehicle is 'wounded' by a plasma gun on a 3+ if it is armor 10! Tyrannofexes should have been t8.

You might have a point about the Harpy / Harridan, I haven't really looked at the comparison.

But...

Let me get this straight, the Barbed Hierodule is around 570ish something points (if not more, don't have my FW book in front of my atm), while the Tyrannofex is 265 w/ rupture cannon. Half the cost but the same weapon potency, and almost similiar stat line...

I'm sorry, I don't get your logic on this, he's almost identical to the big bad version in the FW book put into the smaller game with near the same potentcy with reduced cost and you're complaining? Sounds to me like you're just miffed because you, like me, bought the apocalypse book and now you feel slighted. And honestly, I mean did you think Nid's would never change ever again?

I mean by this logic, you should be furious with every Codex that's launched after you bought the first one. "oh no a new codex! my old one I spent money on is wasted." ...well, duh!

I don't mean to sound harsh, but all these quibbles over the new codex just sound like whinning now.

Peace~

No, actually I am miffed because the tyrannofex, while seeming to have the same/similiar stats, was ruined by weapon IMpotency.

IE, the tyrannofex, which didnt exist before this book, shares the same role and similiar stats as a monster that did exist, the hierodule. However, instead of making the tyrannofex half the cost of a hierodule with half the potency, they made it 40% the cost and 1/6th the potency as the apoc hierodule. in other words, The rupture cannon should have been s10 ap3 assault 6 for the price you pay on the beast, and the beast should have been s8-9, toughness 7.

I wonder what the points and stats of the original forgeworld hierodule are, as the forgeworld version might be worth taking in regular games.

Well I can tell you right now the weapon stats are the same. The price is higher, significantly, I do have the FW apoc book that lists his entry and the trygon, etc etc. I don't have with me at work at the moment. But when I get home tonight I'll be sure to show you the stat by stat line (the ones that matter) and we can look at the major/minor differences then.

But honestly there is still a role for both, since the FW apoc book versions are deigned to take on and fight with Titans. These newer models I think were desgned to give players who haven't played or lookEd at the apoc game a chance to see similiar models I their every day games.

Anywasys I'll be sure to get back to this thread this evening.

Peace~


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alright, now I have both books in front of me. Let's look at the Tyrannofex and the Barbed Hierodule.

Original Content:
Barbed Hierodule -
Cost: 540 pts
BS3 S8 T8 W5 Sv2+

Weapon: Bio-Cannon 48" Str10 AP3 Assault 1, Large Blast


New Content:
Tyrannofex -
Cost (w/ Rupture Cannon): 265 pts
BS3 S6 T6 W6 Sv2+

Weapon: Rupture Cannon 48" Str10 AP4 Assault 2

So as we look at these two beasts, you'll notice the stats lines did drop a little (at least the one's we're focusing on) at least. But the Cannon has actually increased in amount of volley's and the only change for that is the AP has gone up from 3 to 4. Not to big of a difference see as how it wasn't popping tanking with AP1 in the first place anyways.

I don't see how this new version which is cheaper would be worse in the games it's been designed for. The weapon can't scatter any more, so it's a hit if you roll a hit, that's not bad. Has an additional wound with the same Sv. And 540 / 2 = 270. So its actually 5pts cheaper then half the cost with the same load out.

Comparing these units for Forge World rules is useless as most FW stuff is either overpriced, underpowered, or both.

Aduro wrote:It's almost as if an army can only field three Trygons max, while Hive Guard max out at some higher number. It might even be something like Three Times as many.

Still doesn't prove that HG are the defacto must have for the codex. Obviously the Trygons they made more of so they haven't sold out......yet. They probably didn't see such a huge buy up of HG models. I personally love the Venomthrope model and Pyrovore and they probably produced the same number. It's just that min-max tournament players went for what works the best on paper...HG. I'm hearing 50/50 on DL so obviously not a "must-have"; they've had years worth of models being made for him but he too is sold out for a couple of weeks yet.

So. Something selling out is just coincidence. Take termagants. You'd think with all the ACL tearing knee-jerking going on about "GW MAKING ME BY MORE TERMAGANT BOXES TO REPLACE MY SPINEFISTS BECAUSE I CAN'T MIN/MAX ANYMORE" that Termagant boxes would sell out. I mean surely they can't keep up if rules drive sales as much as people say they do.

Thanks fexor for the comparison. I agree that the forgeworld heirodule's gun is the same basicly as the current tyrannofex. The stat line, however, is much improved. However, for half the cost the tyrannofex is better than the FW hierodule. However, the tyrannofex is still terrible for the point cost in my opinion.

Of course, Fateweaver makes the assumption that people only ever brought Spinegaunts to 'min/max'. Which technically makes his post a personal attack against all Tyranid players who brought Spinegaunts.

DevianID wrote:Thanks fexor for the comparison. I agree that the forgeworld heirodule's gun is the same basicly as the current tyrannofex. The stat line, however, is much improved. However, for half the cost the tyrannofex is better than the FW hierodule. However, the tyrannofex is still terrible for the point cost in my opinion.

Not a problem on the comparison.

Well, I'll agree it may not fit into everyone's build and I'm not against that, I'd prefer players to play the way they wish. Which is why the new codex, as different as it may be to the last edition, provides more options for Tyranid players to play their army they way they want to. If you don't want to take a Tyrannofex, you don't have to there are other heavy choices that can work just as well. And that's the major thing I'm liking about it, is that you aren't pigeon-hold into the same build as everyone else, you have variety and for the most part if you can make the other Heavy units synchronize with the other parts of the army, you're going to be effective with whatever you choose to take.

Just my opinion.

Peace~

H.B.M.C. wrote:Of course, Fateweaver makes the assumption that people only ever brought Spinegaunts to 'min/max'. Which technically makes his post a personal attack against all Tyranid players who brought Spinegaunts.

It's doubly hilarious because using Old Spinegaunts meant you played horde nids, which was the worst list the codex could conjure.

Tyranids always batter me with my transports, Carnifexes, rending, etc etc

Maybe not everyone took 180 gaunts to win.

I've also heard all the moaning and bitching from known min-maxers so yes my point does have some merit; more than the point "GW IS FORCING ME TO BUY MORE GAUNT BOXES BECAUSE SPINEGAUNTS AREN'T THE CHEAPEST GAUNT AVAILABLE TO NIDS".

What has more weight? Me posting what I've seen and heard or some conspiracy theory by GW to make people spend a whopping 30pts more per gaunt brood or be FORCED to pay GW another $25 per 12 gaunts (or whatever the amount in the box is) to be able to min-max again.

The devourer was superior to the spinefist in the old codex so if people didn't take spinefists to min-max than they would have taken devil gaunts. Yet the spinegaunt was taken by 95% of people who bothered to take gaunts at all so something doesn't add up.

Mathematically, all the old gaunt types did the same damage once you considered price into account. Devilgaunts did something like twice as much damage as spinegaunts, but it evened out when considering spinegaunts got twice as many firing models. It was kind of stupid because there was no motivation to take upgraded models.

Now, devilgaunts are better, which is good, but spinegaunts are still the same as they used to be, but without Fleet and for more points. Not even comparing spinegaunts to termagants. Spinegaunts got nerfed for pretty much no reason. A unit got worse, and said unit had to be bought in large numbers to be effective. It would be like GW switching the point costs of boyz and nobz. Who would bother with the boyz? Nobz have better everything and now they're cheaper. Meanwhile, people who bought 180 boyz got the shaft for purely financial reasons.

Gaunts had weight of numbers going for them before. If you wanted a list which fits some peoples' definitions of fluff of massed gaunts, then you picked spinegaunts because they weren't more expensive than guardsmen or boyz. You can't make a swarm list with 10 point models. If you wanted a list that used gaunts effectively, you picked spinegaunts again because gaunts were so bad that changing weapons didn't make any difference. They were still going to just stop scoring once your tyrants got killed.

Broken Loose wrote:Mathematically, all the old gaunt types did the same damage once you considered price into account. Devilgaunts did something like twice as much damage as spinegaunts, but it evened out when considering spinegaunts got twice as many firing models. It was kind of stupid because there was no motivation to take upgraded models.

Now, devilgaunts are better, which is good, but spinegaunts are still the same as they used to be, but without Fleet and for more points. Not even comparing spinegaunts to termagants. Spinegaunts got nerfed for pretty much no reason. A unit got worse, and said unit had to be bought in large numbers to be effective. It would be like GW switching the point costs of boyz and nobz. Who would bother with the boyz? Nobz have better everything and now they're cheaper. Meanwhile, people who bought 180 boyz got the shaft for purely financial reasons.

Gaunts had weight of numbers going for them before. If you wanted a list which fits some peoples' definitions of fluff of massed gaunts, then you picked spinegaunts because they weren't more expensive than guardsmen or boyz. You can't make a swarm list with 10 point models. If you wanted a list that used gaunts effectively, you picked spinegaunts again because gaunts were so bad that changing weapons didn't make any difference. They were still going to just stop scoring once your tyrants got killed.

It only gets worse if you want Devourers on your Gaunts. And there's no motivation now to take upgraded Gaunts just like there wasn't any in the previous Codex, only it's for a different reason. You gotto give GW credit for staying consistent.

Well about the only upgrade taken for Gaunts that was consistently taken (from what I saw) was WoN. And that for gaunts was the only reason to bring them, to just keep as many on the field as possible.

I've seen a lot of Hive Guard at stores around here.

Maybe Relapse you are mistaking them for something else because clearly the fact your store has any left goes against the notion that they are mandatory in the 100's of 1k's or millions of Nid armies in the world.

Explains why the Trygon is sold out......err wait it's not. Guess the myth that "The Trygon is the only HS worth taking so everyone is going to take 3" has not been proven as fact (or else GW made 10M of them just in case every nid player in the world decided to take more than 3 and build apoc size Tyranid armies).