I would like for my fellow dakka reader to discuss about this new character that was added to the new Tyranids Codex

The rules states quoted from the Tyranids Codex: Spirit Leech At the beginning of every Shooting phase including the foe's, every non-vehicle enemy unit within 6' pf the Doom of Malan'tai must take a leadership test on 3D6, If the test is failed the unit suffers a single wound for each point failed, with no armor sav

My question, since this character Spirit Leech is not a Psychic ability and you don't need a LOS or your not targeting a model, does its affect all model regardless in a vehicle or not, must take this leadership test?

Here my thought is this, since all models are assume on the board wether or not the units in a vehicle, they must take this test.

Comments.......

There's already been at least one discussion on this over in YMDC. Unless I'm mistaken, there were proponents on both sides that were adamant about their interpretations.

No.

If you are within 6" of a transport, you are within 6" of that vehicle, not the unit inside it. The rules allow you to measure effects from a unit inside a transport, provided there are firepoints or the ability doesnt require LOS. There is nothing in the rules that allows you to measure effects to a unit in a transport. All you, as the opponent, can do is measure effects to the transport itself, which is not effected by the doom of malan'tai's ability.

Regwon wrote:No.

If you are within 6" of a transport, you are within 6" of that vehicle, not the unit inside it. The rules allow you to measure effects from a unit inside a transport, provided there are firepoints or the ability doesnt require LOS. There is nothing in the rules that allows you to measure effects to a unit in a transport. All you, as the opponent, can do is measure effects to the transport itself, which is not effected by the doom of malan'tai's ability.

i have to say that the Doom of Malan'tai does not need a LOS because one you gave a cover save or it targeting you, it just an effect that effect everything in a 6' radius.

But you are still trying to measure an effect to a unit to which you cant. You cant measure and effect TO a unit in a transport. It doesnt matter if you dont need to target it specifically, or that it doesnt require LOS. There is nothing in the rules that permitts you to use it on a unit embarked in a transport.

Are Nid players really that desperate for a handout from under the table, looking for as much twisting of a rule to get a slight edge? This is the 7th guy ask this question TODAY, from Dakka and FLGS.

No. Unit in transport, unit is not actively on the table aside firing weapons from inside. Cannot affect inside the vehicle, you affect the vehicle. End of story. Let's PLEASE put this to rest.

Kurgash wrote:Are Nid players really that desperate for a handout from under the table, looking for as much twisting of a rule to get a slight edge? This is the 7th guy ask this question TODAY, from Dakka and FLGS.

No. Unit in transport, unit is not actively on the table aside firing weapons from inside. Cannot affect inside the vehicle, you affect the vehicle. End of story. Let's PLEASE put this to rest.

I wouldnt call this twisting a rule. There is a bit of unclarity in the rules and mrblacksunshine was asking a perfectly legitimate question. Its much better to ask than to play the game incorrectly and people should ask if they are unsure. If people stopped asking rules questions then how would they know? Its also understandable that lots of people are asking this particular questions since the codex is so new. People aren't psychic and if one person know a rule another may not, not without asking that is.

Regwon wrote:No.

If you are within 6" of a transport, you are within 6" of that vehicle, not the unit inside it. The rules allow you to measure effects from a unit inside a transport, provided there are firepoints or the ability doesnt require LOS. There is nothing in the rules that allows you to measure effects to a unit in a transport. All you, as the opponent, can do is measure effects to the transport itself, which is not effected by the doom of malan'tai's ability.

Please read page 66 of the rulebook (under 'Embarking'). Measurements involving the embarked unit are measured TO or from the vehicle's hull.


The ability in question is a special rule. It is not a psychic attack which requires line of sight.

Therefore, by the rules embarked units *are* affected by this ability. This is not twisting the rules, this is what the rules say.

Claiming that the ability wouldn't affect embarked units would be twisting the rules in this particular case (IMHO).

I stand corrected. I really dont know how i missed that

yakface wrote:

Regwon wrote:No.

If you are within 6" of a transport, you are within 6" of that vehicle, not the unit inside it. The rules allow you to measure effects from a unit inside a transport, provided there are firepoints or the ability doesnt require LOS. There is nothing in the rules that allows you to measure effects to a unit in a transport. All you, as the opponent, can do is measure effects to the transport itself, which is not effected by the doom of malan'tai's ability.

Please read page 66 of the rulebook (under 'Embarking'). Measurements involving the embarked unit are measured TO or from the vehicle's hull.


The ability in question is a special rule. It is not a psychic attack which requires line of sight.

Therefore, by the rules embarked units *are* affected by this ability. This is not twisting the rules, this is what the rules say.

Claiming that the ability wouldn't affect embarked units would be twisting the rules in this particular case (IMHO).

Yakface is indeed correct.

Of course, that being said, this opens up the can of worms about embarked units taking Morale tests, but nonetheless, it does affect embarked units.

Gwar! wrote:

yakface wrote:

Regwon wrote:No.

If you are within 6" of a transport, you are within 6" of that vehicle, not the unit inside it. The rules allow you to measure effects from a unit inside a transport, provided there are firepoints or the ability doesnt require LOS. There is nothing in the rules that allows you to measure effects to a unit in a transport. All you, as the opponent, can do is measure effects to the transport itself, which is not effected by the doom of malan'tai's ability.

Please read page 66 of the rulebook (under 'Embarking'). Measurements involving the embarked unit are measured TO or from the vehicle's hull.


The ability in question is a special rule. It is not a psychic attack which requires line of sight.

Therefore, by the rules embarked units *are* affected by this ability. This is not twisting the rules, this is what the rules say.

Claiming that the ability wouldn't affect embarked units would be twisting the rules in this particular case (IMHO).

Yakface is indeed correct.

Of course, that being said, this opens up the can of worms about embarked units taking Morale tests, but nonetheless, it does affect embarked units.

This has been a big problem with ruling and the way we read rules. This ability is not a Morale Test nor does the Fearless apply here has well. All shooting or Psychic shooting must have a LOS and has to target a unit or model. Yakface, does say that Doom ability is not a Psychic power, it affect that always happens. since you dont need a LOS, any units whether or not in a vehcile has to take this test. Becuase all models are assume to be on board. I cannt target a model in vehicle, due to the LOS, Doom does not need a LOS or is he targeting a model.

A unit can embark onto a vehicle by moving each model to within 2" of its access points in the Movement phase. The whole unit must be able to embark or none of them can. If some models are out of range, the unit may not embark. When the unit embarks, it is removed from the table and placed aside, making a note or otherwise marking that the unit is being transported (we find that placing one of the unit’s models on top of the transport works best!). If any of the models in the transport have abilities that function within a certain range, this range is measured from the vehicle’s hull.

1- The unit is in the transport but the models are removed from the table.

2- "if any of the models in the transport have abilities that function within a certain range, this range is measured from the vehicles hull"

So we have a rule allowing models embarked to measure from the vehicle hull to something.

There actually is no rule in the Rulebook that says you may measure to a unit in a vehicle. If you can quote it and cite where it is be my guest.

Models in transports are unaffected by the Doom of Malan'tai

blaktoof wrote:There actually is no rule in the Rulebook that says you may measure to a unit in a vehicle. If you can quote it and cite where it is be my guest.

P.66, Second Column, Second Paragraph (the one under embarking), Last Sentence.

in my rulebook it only says

". If any of the models in the transport have abilities that function within a certain range, this range is measured from the vehicle’s hull."

in that spot.

nothing about measuring to models in a vehicle.

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:This has been a big problem with ruling and the way we read rules. This ability is not a Morale Test nor does the Fearless apply here has well.

I never said it was? I was talking about the morale test taken for 25% casualties...

Mine (and everyone else's) says: "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull.)" Are you using a non-English rulebook?

blaktoof wrote:in my rulebook it only says

". If any of the models in the transport have abilities that function within a certain range, this range is measured from the vehicle’s hull."

in that spot.

nothing about measuring to models in a vehicle.

Haha, funny.

Page 66, Main Heading "Transport Vehicles", Sub-heading "Embarking and Disembarking", Second Sub heading "Embarking", the final sentence of the paragraph, just before the two bullet points, I quote:
"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."

I actually only have the boxed set mini rulebook, for some reason it doesn't include the words "to or"

interesting.

blaktoof wrote:I actually only have the boxed set mini rulebook, for some reason it doesn't include the words "to or"

interesting.

I have the AoBR rulebook too. In fact, the AoBR Rulebook is word for word, page for page identical to the large rulebook (up to the summary pages anyway).

im not lieing. my rulebook honestly does not say "to or" in that spot.


anyways there are other "attack" effects that are not shooting attacks or psychic powers that can target any model within 6" no LoS restrictions (nightmare shroud, technically nightbringers knocback ability if hes in range, Daemons I turn you into chaos spawn power). Considering they have not been allowed to affect models in vehicles it is unlikely this does. Also generally models in vehicles cannot be targetted by things and as the special rule for doom of malan'tai is not permissive towards stating "Even embarked models" or "even models in vehicles" or anything to that effect it is unlikely RAI that it may target models in the vehicles.

GW have been known to publish a new edition of a book without announcing it, so it is possible that there are two AoBR rulebooks with slight differences.

Kilkrazy wrote:GW have been known to publish a new edition of a book without announcing it, so it is possible that there are two AoBR rulebooks with slight differences.

That's extremely unlikely this late in the game.

blaktoof wrote:Also generally models in vehicles cannot be targetted by things and as the special rule for doom of malan'tai is not permissive towards stating "Even embarked models" or "even models in vehicles" or anything to that effect it is unlikely RAI that it may target models in the vehicles.

It doesn't have to, because the main rules allow it to.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:GW have been known to publish a new edition of a book without announcing it, so it is possible that there are two AoBR rulebooks with slight differences.

That's extremely unlikely this late in the game.

It's not impossible though. The DE codex has at least three editions and the third rules edition Chaos Marines codex had several editions too.

At least for the DE codex they were honest about it (sometimes).

Allowing it to effect them opens up way too many different crazy not covered by the rules and so breaks the game possibilities ...

much better to just insist on a 4+ and if you lose just shoot it with a couple krak missiles ... lol

yakface wrote:Please read page 66 of the rulebook (under 'Embarking'). Measurements involving the embarked unit are measured TO or from the vehicle's hull.


The ability in question is a special rule. It is not a psychic attack which requires line of sight.

Therefore, by the rules embarked units *are* affected by this ability. This is not twisting the rules, this is what the rules say.

Claiming that the ability wouldn't affect embarked units would be twisting the rules in this particular case (IMHO).

I realize your ruling follows the Psychic Scream ruling in the INAT you wrote however...
Would you say that this "Spirit Leech" Doom ability is considered to be "directly attacking" the embarked unit?

I think it's clear that it's "attacking" the units, but like I said I don't feel that the ability is "directly involving" the embarked unit, however, if you do feel that is directly involving the embarked unit, ie you are measuring a range to the embarked unit, do you feel that you are "attacking the unit directly"? Seems like you are.

Someone quoted this to me in support of the Doom ability effecting embarked units, but I felt it stated the contrary:

BRB p.79 wrote:This aside, moving into or out of a building works the same as embarking or disembarking from a vehicle (including emergency disembarkations). All of the normal rules apply <snip> Models entering a building a removed from the table

So you get the idea that buildings, not ruins but buildings with an Armor value, and transports are treated the same.

BRB p.79 wrote:The best way to kill enemy troops in a fortified position is usually just to destroy the fortified position. Units may shoot at or assault an occupied building just as if it was a vehicle. Units inside a building may not be attacked directly, but will be affected in the same manner as units inside a transport vehicle should the building be damaged and so may suffer damage and/or be forced to 'disembark'.

This ultimately answers the logic... can a unit inside a transport be shot. No, because this logic for a building also applies to a transport because they are treated the same. I think it also sets the precedence the embarked unit cannot be attacked... I think that clearly if you are killing enemy models you are attacking them. Hence why I feel that RAW and RAI, No, Spirit Leech does not effect embarked units.

Also note your ruling in the INAT
+RB.66E.02 –
Q: Can an embarked unit ever be forced to fall back or become pinned while in/on a vehicle (or building)?
A: Unless explicitly specified otherwise, no [clarification].
Allowing the Spirit Leech ability to work would force a morale check that is not explicitly stated.
I realize the INAT is not official but considering you have written most of it, I would concluding "Yes it effects embarked units" seems also contradictory

paidinfull wrote:Also note your ruling in the INAT
+RB.66E.02 –
Q: Can an embarked unit ever be forced to fall back or become pinned while in/on a vehicle (or building)?
A: Unless explicitly specified otherwise, no [clarification].
Allowing the Spirit Leech ability to work would force a morale check that is not explicitly stated.
I realize the INAT is not official but considering you have written most of it, I would concluding "Yes it effects embarked units" seems also contradictory

Here is a free nugget of wisdom:
What the Rules say and what the INAT says are two VERY different things. The INAT by definition must bend the rules (or outright change them) to allow a smooth tournament setting game, which is generally time limited.

Notice how the above question is not labelled RaW? That's because it isn't, it's changing the way the rules works.

Gwar! wrote:Here is a free nugget of wisdom:
What the Rules say and what the INAT says are two VERY different things.

Notice how the above question is not labelled RaW? That's because it isn't, it's changing the way the rules works.

Pro Tip #1 my comments were directed at the author of the FAQ, regarding his rulings on similar situations and contradictions. Simply referencing his previous written statements.
edit: this would be no different than pointing out you had no idea what you were talking about in your SW FAQ.


Pro Tip #2 Read the whole post.
You will also note that the RAW in the BRB is that embarked units may not be attacked, per p.79

wow...

doom is not attacking the unit. If this help the way you think of the situation, imagine the enemy is attacking the doom by being within 6" and as a reaction it drains their life.

to summarize: doom not attacking, units in 6" bubble get life drained. simple.

VoXX wrote:wow...

doom is not attacking the unit. If this help the way you think of the situation, imagine the enemy is attacking the doom by being within 6" and as a reaction it drains their life.

to summarize: doom not attacking, units in 6" bubble get life drained. simple.

"Wow", you are ignoring the fundamentals for how this rule is clearly intended to work in combination with Absorb Life.
"The Doom immediately gains a wound, <snip>, for every unsaved wound it inflicts."
Really? He's inflicting wounds with his ability Spirit Leech, and you're semantically saying this isn't an "attack"? How is he inflicting these wounds if his ability isn't a type of attack?

It is a Type of Attack. More over, if we are using our "imaginations", it's a type of PSYCHIC attack, since he's a Psyker.

p79 in BRB supports that units embarked in a transport and/or building may not be attacked.

RAW – the Doom’s power does affect units within a transport.

With that said, I believe it will be FAQ’d that the power does NOT affect embarked units. The Doom is only 90 points and, considering everything he does, he needs a nerf badly. Also, by logic, drivers of vehicles are living things even though they aren’t represented as models on the table. It doesn’t make sense to me that the drivers of a Chimera are nice and safe while the guys in the cargo hold are dying of psychic onslaughts.

Until it’s FAQ’d I strongly believe he does hurt embarked units. When it is FAQ’d, if there’s any justice in this world, he will NOT affect embarked units.

if the dooms ability can affect models through solid objects ie: opposite side of a wall, why would a tank hull stop it?

@paidinfull: doom not attacking its using a special ability. doom is a psyker but absorb life is NOT a psychic attack.

@incarna last time i checked yakface did the FAQ's and pg.1 of this thread has him saying it does affect units in vehicles...

VoXX wrote:@incarna last time i checked yakface did the FAQ's and pg.1 of this thread has him saying it does affect units in vehicles...

Is this an official FAQ in any capacity? I know GW was pawning the FAQ writing off to the Adepticon crew. Can you link it?

incarna wrote:

VoXX wrote:@incarna last time i checked yakface did the FAQ's and pg.1 of this thread has him saying it does affect units in vehicles...

Is this an official FAQ in any capacity? I know GW was pawning the FAQ writing off to the Adepticon crew. Can you link it?

Well, read the GW FAQs. Most of them have a note saying that Yakface and crew wrote them.

Sadly though their official line now seems to be getting others to do the work for them but not crediting them.

Bastards.

This was the argument presented to me.

Does a Psychic Hood affect units inside a transport casting psychic powers? Yes it does. Now, the wording for how these two abilities work is almost exactly the same.

So, if a psychic hood works this way, why not Doom?

Because Doom hurts?

VoXX wrote:if the dooms ability can affect models through solid objects ie: opposite side of a wall, why would a tank hull stop it?

@paidinfull: doom not attacking its using a special ability. doom is a psyker but absorb life is NOT a psychic attack.

@incarna last time i checked yakface did the FAQ's and pg.1 of this thread has him saying it does affect units in vehicles...

How are you able to simply ignore the logic that the ability is "inflicting" wounds? This is an action, a verb. The ability is doing something to something else that is causing harm. Last time I checked inflicting physical harm or causing bodily harm is part of what it defines an attack. You're also using real world logic vs game logic.

Game logic is those models were "removed from the table" so they aren't even there. You're using a Rule that says you measure to the hull of the vehicle to determine the range for if the unit is within the effect of the ability. Now, if this ability WEREN'T causing wounds, I'd agree that it's not a type of attack, but I have no idea how you are able to say that the Doom model by using the Spirit Leech ability to inflict wounds on an enemy unit is not attacking that unit with this ability. He is causing physical harm to the unit, that's an attack! By the Doom's actions he is causing harm, a means of attack.

Yakface also said in his INAT FAQ -
+RB.66E.02 –
Q: Can an embarked unit ever be forced to fall back or become pinned while in/on a vehicle (or building)?
A: Unless explicitly specified otherwise, no [clarification].

If the Spirit Leech ability works against embarked unit it breaks this written INAT ruling.
Why? Because Spirit Leech does not specifically state it causes fall back moves and in the BRB at the end of every phase if a unit suffered 25% it must take a morale check. Spirit Leech happens, the average roll is 10.5, against IG with LD8 GASP that's probably enough for a morale check, only we've broken the rule set. The BGB also as stated hundreds of times, does not cover any of this in the RAW or official FAQs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arschbombe wrote:Because Doom hurts?

Exactly... it's a type of attack and you cannot attack units embarked in transports or buildings.

paidinfull wrote:
Yakface also said in his INAT FAQ -
+RB.66E.02 –
Q: Can an embarked unit ever be forced to fall back or become pinned while in/on a vehicle (or building)?
A: Unless explicitly specified otherwise, no [clarification].

If the Spirit Leech ability works against embarked unit it breaks this written INAT ruling.
Why? Because Spirit Leech does not specifically state it causes fall back moves and in the BRB at the end of every phase if a unit suffered 25% it must take a morale check. Spirit Leech happens, the average roll is 10.5, against IG with LD8 GASP that's probably enough for a morale check, only we've broken the rule set. The BGB also as stated hundreds of times, does not cover any of this in the RAW or official FAQs.

And as I have said, the INAT FAQ changes the rule. What the Rules say and what the INAT say are two different things. Just because Yakface says "ABC" does not change the fact that it is actually "RAW" (see what I did thar?).

And as I have pointed out you need to read all the posts
@incarna last time i checked yakface did the FAQ's and pg.1 of this thread has him saying it does affect units in vehicles...

There is also NO RAW for fall back moves, etc. in this regards, its incomplete... do ya see?

Arschbombe wrote:Because Doom hurts?

I don't see why that would stop it. The knee jerk reaction is to cry faul and shout no as laud as you can, but I don't think that's the case this time. I'd be willing to let Doom work on guys inside a transport until they get a FAQ.

Gwar! wrote:Well, read the GW FAQs. Most of them have a note saying that Yakface and crew wrote them.

Sadly though their official line now seems to be getting others to do the work for them but not crediting them.

Then I will make an appeal to Yakface if he is developing a FAQ for the new Tyranid codex.

Yakface, Please hear me!

I do NOT disagree that RAW indicates that the Doom’s power can affect embarked units. I do however believe that, despite the fact that I am currently building a Tyranid army and will undoubtedly use this unit in time, that the Doom should NOT be able to affect units within a transport for several reasons.

The power clearly states “non vehicle unit”. Why are the pilots of Chimera, Landraiders, Rhino’s and even Dreadnaughts immune to having their soul rent asunder by the psychic onslaught? Armor seems to provide some form of protection. If it didn’t, the rule should have a sub-text that accounts for how the living drivers of a vehicle are affected.

The Doom is comparable to a vehicle squad of IG artillery. Its vulnerability is compensated for by its ability to inflict damage in both you and your opponents turn. At 90 points, this is a potentially insane game mechanic – the ability to point to any heavy hitting unit on the table such as a demon prince to land raider-mounted terminator squad is far too powerful for the point investment. The ONLY reasonable protection possible is a transport.

Aya wrote:I don't see why that would stop it. The knee jerk reaction is to cry faul and shout no as laud as you can, but I don't think that's the case this time. I'd be willing to let Doom work on guys inside a transport until they get a FAQ.

That's awesome. Really, it shows what a great sport and opponent you can be.

All of my points and arguments stem from a stand point of "we want the strict RAW sense"

@incarna
I think you've just summed it up the best. (except for the very first sentence, which I have argued against) Well said.

incarna wrote:Then I will make an appeal to Yakface if he is developing a FAQ for the new Tyranid codex.

To check this before it gets out of hand: Yakface didn't write the current FAQ's. Portions of the current FAQ's were taken from the INAT FAQ. Slight difference.

Essentially, GW have started checking fan-written FAQ's, and where an answer in that FAQ matches the way they want to rule, they're just using that answer rather than writing their own.

insaniak wrote:

incarna wrote:Then I will make an appeal to Yakface if he is developing a FAQ for the new Tyranid codex.

To check this before it gets out of hand: Yakface didn't write the current FAQ's. Portions of the current FAQ's were taken from the INAT FAQ. Slight difference.

Essentially, GW have started checking fan-written FAQ's, and where an answer in that FAQ matches the way they want to rule, they're just using that answer rather than writing their own.

Without credit of course, because Big Bad GW have armies of Lawyers to protect them

Will it really matter?

Say that GW does issue an FAQ that addresses Spirit Leech and that it indeed doesn't affect units in vehicles. Everyone is just going to say that GW isn't ruling per RAW. Everyone that supports it affecting units in vehicles will then say that faq's are not official with them just being house rules so do not have to be followed.

Brother Ramses wrote:Will it really matter?... will then say that faq's are not official with them just being house rules so do not have to be followed.

And round and round we go. You have got to love good old GW...

EDIT: I pray for The Day when GW finally stops the current nonsense regarding Errata/FAQs and gets serious. Unfortunately it seems that perkele in his infernal domain will start shoveling snow before that happens.

Brother Ramses wrote:Say that GW does issue an FAQ that addresses Spirit Leech and that it indeed doesn't affect units in vehicles. Everyone is just going to say that GW isn't ruling per RAW. Everyone that supports it affecting units in vehicles will then say that faq's are not official with them just being house rules so do not have to be followed.

And the vast majority of players, who do accept the GW FAQ's, will play it as FAQ'd. Which is why in YMDC we count the FAQ's as official rulings.

yakface wrote:

Regwon wrote:No.

If you are within 6" of a transport, you are within 6" of that vehicle, not the unit inside it. The rules allow you to measure effects from a unit inside a transport, provided there are firepoints or the ability doesnt require LOS. There is nothing in the rules that allows you to measure effects to a unit in a transport. All you, as the opponent, can do is measure effects to the transport itself, which is not effected by the doom of malan'tai's ability.

Please read page 66 of the rulebook (under 'Embarking'). Measurements involving the embarked unit are measured TO or from the vehicle's hull.


The ability in question is a special rule. It is not a psychic attack which requires line of sight.

Therefore, by the rules embarked units *are* affected by this ability. This is not twisting the rules, this is what the rules say.

Claiming that the ability wouldn't affect embarked units would be twisting the rules in this particular case (IMHO).

Yak, If you read the main rulebook FAQ's

Q. Can Psychic powers be used on a unit
embarked on a transport?

A. For simplicity’s sake, the answer has to be a
firm ‘No, unless the psyker himself is in the unit
being transported’.

I think the answer is shown to be no you cant affect friendly or enemy units in a transport. This seems pretty cut and dry to me. This would open up an entire can of worms that doesnt need to happen otherwise.

Do you really want Howling Cyclone to make units break in transports? The way you rule it would have to be a yes, it says all units within 18" must take a morale test or fall back. This isnt a psychic shooting attack so it would fall into the same group of powers.

Also, Chain Lightning would effect units in transports do you really want this?

On a side note, for those who say hey you dont get cover saves against Tervigon's coming out of the ground because it isnt a shooting attack then under those same context's no one will get any cover saves against Njal Stormcallers Lord of Tempests effects.

If for some reason FAQ's said that these are the cases on these two topics wow, Njal just became the most powerful man in 40k.
Broxus

Yak, If you read the main rulebook FAQ's

Q. Can Psychic powers be used on a unit
embarked on a transport?

A. For simplicity’s sake, the answer has to be a
firm ‘No, unless the psyker himself is in the unit
being transported’.

I think the answer is shown to be no you cant affect friendly or enemy units in a transport. This seems pretty cut and dry to me. This would open up an entire can of worms that doesnt need to happen otherwise.

Do you really want Howling Cyclone to make units break in transports? The way you rule it would have to be a yes, it says all units within 18" must take a morale test or fall back. This isnt a ps

ALso, Chain lightning would effect units in transports do you really want this?

On a side note, for those who say hey you dont get cover saves against Tervigon's coming out of the ground because it isnt a shooting attack then under those same context's no one will get any cover saves against Njal Stormcallers Lort od Tempests effects.

Broxus

Fear the deep striking tervigon.

PS.

The doom's ability isn't a psychic power.

Either are the Storm Callers Lord of Tempest effects.

I can see it now, put Njal in a LR move him foward and try to make all the enemy squads come running out of their transports from suffering 25% casulities from Chain lighting and even instant killing T4 guys. If that doesnt work just make them run out of the transports with Howling Cyclone.

Bah

Gwar! wrote:Without credit of course, because Big Bad GW have armies of Lawyers to protect them

Gee Gwar, I see your not holding a grudge

{Not that I wouldn't be hacked off if someone used my material without permission}

Simple question though, how do they balance up the ability against non living units. Specifically gun drones? IE I know what the rules say, its a unit, it has toughness it takes wounds. But whats the fluff?

Andrew

paidinfull wrote:

VoXX wrote:wow...

doom is not attacking the unit. If this help the way you think of the situation, imagine the enemy is attacking the doom by being within 6" and as a reaction it drains their life.

to summarize: doom not attacking, units in 6" bubble get life drained. simple.

"Wow", you are ignoring the fundamentals for how this rule is clearly intended to work in combination with Absorb Life.
"The Doom immediately gains a wound, <snip>, for every unsaved wound it inflicts."
Really? He's inflicting wounds with his ability Spirit Leech, and you're semantically saying this isn't an "attack"? How is he inflicting these wounds if his ability isn't a type of attack?

It is a Type of Attack. More over, if we are using our "imaginations", it's a type of PSYCHIC attack, since he's a Psyker.

p79 in BRB supports that units embarked in a transport and/or building may not be attacked.

I think it's arrogant at best to presume how rules are "clearly intended" to work in combination with others. I think enough people are unsure of this one to show that it is clearly not as clear as you think.

Under the premise that "wound=attack" would you say that the ground is attacking units on a failed dangerous terrain check? Unless our Eldar player is taking me for a ride, I'm pretty sure you get an invul save against one. I'm also pretty sure invul saves can only be taken against wounds.

AndrewC wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Without credit of course, because Big Bad GW have armies of Lawyers to protect them

Gee Gwar, I see your not holding a grudge

{Not that I wouldn't be hacked off if someone used my material without permission}

Simple question though, how do they balance up the ability against non living units. Specifically gun drones? IE I know what the rules say, its a unit, it has toughness it takes wounds. But whats the fluff?

Andrew

There is not a catagory of living or not living. It would would work on drones because it doesnt have an AV value and fall under the vehicle catagory. That is purely fluff only.

broxus wrote:
There is not catagory in living or not living. It would would work on drones because it doesnt have an AV value and fall under the vehicle catagory. That is purely fluff only.

Which is what I said. I just wondered if they had tried to justify it in some way.

Cheers

Andrew

Ugh did some one really drag this up again? IM just going to provide a link for how I see it as it sums it up quiet nicely. http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=49370&postcount=65

I personally would not allow it to be a yes until we get the faq as we have no way of figuring out how the unit would be able to fall back or just be outright destroyed due to this power.

Damn double posts

I called GW customer services and got answer to our question about Doom of Malan'tai.....believe or not i got three different answers everytime i called. Go figure, Gw cant even answer their own rules.....hahaha

First one .....I dont know....maybe or may not
Second one.......No
and Third.......I dont know

This came up in a campaign that my LGS is holding the sunday after the release and me being a judge for the had to make a ruling. I was not comfortable making this without contacting GW and asking, since I had not read the codex until it was presented to me. Now, before anyone gives the old "you can call GW 5 times and get 5 different answers" line, we decided to call multiple times from different phones and the one with the most yes or no's was determined to be house rules until the FAQ were published. We called 10 times total from 5 different phones. Surprisingly, we got 10 "no's". So ruled that it did not effect units embarked in transports. I actually talked with the second customer service guy, John, and he stated that there was another ability that the nids had that did effect units in transports but it was specifically stated in the rules. The way John explained it was that the ability checked its bubble and if it touchs a vehicle then the ignores it "like a air tight seal", he went on to state that if a unit is embarked into a transport then the embarked unit is actually treated as vehicular unit, since the embarked unit has to follow the rules of the vehicle such as if they can fire out of a fire point or with heavy weapons. So for right now, at our store, it doesn't.

Guess what?

GW Customer Service is staffed by... Customer Service People. The majority will not have a good knowledge of the rules or even play the game.

Oh yeah I know this, just stating that this is what we did out our store until FAQ. Tho the John guy did seem like he played a lot...

for what its worth in helping anyone decide if 'doom' can hit an embarked unit, please ignore the potential for needing a morale test while embarked. The morale rules for embarked units are simply missing; to base one rule's viability based off the absence of another rule is faulty logic.

AKA, if you belive that you should not be allowed to use 'Doom' on an embarked unit because of potential morale issues, then by the same token you should not be allowed to fire plasma weapons while embarked. Plasma weapons, indeed any 'gets hot' weapon, can cause casualties (attack themselves according to some) and thus cause a subsequent morale check while embarked.

Hope this helps shed some light on the new 'missing morale while embarked' issue, that is not really a new issue at all (its been around since, what, 3rd edition?)

It still doesnt change the fact that Njal's Chain Lightning will work on models in transports if this Tyranid issue were to rule that way.

Njal's Lord of Tempests powers only affect units in his LOS. Units in a transport can not be affected, as he can't draw LOS to them.

insaniak wrote:Njal's Lord of Tempests powers only affect units in his LOS. Units in a transport can not be affected, as he can't draw LOS to them.

Well using this same argument Page 66, under fire points section states, "Ranges and Line of sight are measured from the fire point itself". Therefore, if you can see the fire point you can draw line of site to the unit inside and they can draw line of site to the unit outside.


Also, here is some more food for thought.

Page 79-80.

It states that people inside a building are treated the same as being in a trasport vehicle. It then states on page 80 that you can use flamers against fire points. So can you use flamers against guys in vehicles if you can now draw LOS to them at the fire point?



v/r
Broxus

fire points only apply for the embarked unit's shooting, thus your arguments are invalid.

Also, the flamer versus a building firepoint is a building special rule, again invaild for vehicles.

Woot its the new Deathrolla thread that games workshop will never comment or FAQ on! I cant wait to see the opposing opinions once this starts to get FAQed.

Broxus, I think the point is that the doom doesn't require LOS, it's not a psychic attack, it's not a shooting attack and it doesn't target units...it's just a special ability/rule that auto-affects all enemy units within 6". Since there is a rule (page 66) that allows this to happen then it happens.

DevianID wrote:fire points only apply for the embarked unit's shooting, thus your arguments are invalid.

Also, the flamer versus a building firepoint is a building special rule, again invaild for vehicles.

Show me where it was only refering to fire out of the fireports? It states line of sight is drawn to the firepoint, No the argument isnt invalid.

It says buildings with occupants are treated as transport vehicles, so again this isnt invalid.

The rules state how to resolve template hits against vehicles. It doesn't mention anything about hitting the passengers, so they aren't affected (page 60).

Then further on in the book under the buildings sub-section it describes how to resolve template weapons (page 80).

Separate rules for separate models (buildings and vehicles).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Boy are we off topic!

broxus wrote:

DevianID wrote:fire points only apply for the embarked unit's shooting, thus your arguments are invalid.

Also, the flamer versus a building firepoint is a building special rule, again invaild for vehicles.

Show me where it was only refering to fire out of the fireports? It states line of sight is drawn to the firepoint, No the argument isnt invalid.

It says buildings with occupants are treated as transport vehicles, so again this isnt invalid.

No, it states draw line of sight FROM the firing point, not TO. You added that last bit in yourself.

Firing points only specify hot to shoot from them, not to them.

It states they are treated like transpoort vehicles, not that they are. This means you cannot use building rules and say they must apply to transports, as A->B does not mean B->A

I personally will be using the doom of malan'tai very sparingly just because if it fails its invul save on a str 8 weapon its dead wither it has 1 or 10 wounds. In my experience, thats a common thing. The biggest thing that has hit the tyranids is loss of all creatures in synapse having eternal warrior. So this is a big problem with tyranids is high str weapons will just obliterate the army. Sure doom of malantai will own in low point games or maybe even 1850 tournament list but it just takes one failed save and you lose your wreaking ball of doom.

Also lets say tyranid player goes first doom takes 2 wounds then on the tyranid players doom fires cataclysme which scatter off target. Then the doom rolls, on a d3, 2 wounds he must make guess what you just lost your elite and 90 points. There is a somewhat good chance of this. The only tactic i can see is if i am fighting either guard, orks, or tau and you put doom in reserve, and then deploy him with a bunch of other shooty guys from a tunnel made from a trigon. Only really thing i can see working, but either way its kind of a waste unless its can large blast template like 20 guys and get a max wounds right off the bat.

I have been having good luck with Doom in a pod. drop him right beside a troop choice, he leeches a bunch of wounds at the start of the shooting phase then blows the heck out of something. If the dice roll in your favor he can pay for himself and then some on the turn he arrives. Also, if you drop him in on the same turn as your Zoey's he will draw alot of fire away from them to buy you more time to wreak havoc on any tanks nearby.

Well there is one other way to look at this thing to dis allow the use of the power against units inside of transports.

If you embark on a transport you join it to your unit so that its one unit not two seperate units. This is similar to an IC joining a squad. Then it says that vehicles automatically pass any leadership/morale tests you are required to make. It also says in the rules use the best leadership in the unit. Therefore it would have no effect on the unit inside the transport since they automatically pass any required tests.

broxus wrote:Well there is one other way to look at this thing to dis allow the use of the power against units inside of transports.

If you embark on a transport you join it to your unit so that its one unit not two seperate units. This is similar to an IC joining a squad. Then it says that vehicles automatically pass any leadership/morale tests you are required to make. It also says in the rules use the best leadership in the unit. Therefore it would have no effect on the unit inside the transport since they automatically pass any required tests.

Errm... What? That is completely wrong. By your logic, a Transport and Embarked unit would have to fire at the same unit, which they don't.

Seriously, give it up. You are wrong, now admit it and stop this nonsense.

broxus wrote:Well there is one other way to look at this thing to dis allow the use of the power against units inside of transports.

If you embark on a transport you join it to your unit so that its one unit not two seperate units. This is similar to an IC joining a squad. Then it says that vehicles automatically pass any leadership/morale tests you are required to make. It also says in the rules use the best leadership in the unit. Therefore it would have no effect on the unit inside the transport since they automatically pass any required tests.

Erm, totally and utterly wrong. When you embark a vehicle you are NOT suddenly "joined to" the vehicle.

Try again

Honestly, hitting troops in transports we all know RAI is not going to happen. I swear people will find ways to twist verbage anyway they want to help out their armies. If this skill was suppose to hit troops in a transport I think we all know they would have stated it in the codex. Simply, you cant effect things that have been removed from the table. Sure they can take a leadership test but there are no models there to suck wounds from so its a moot point its the same reason they cant break and run.

It specifically states that shooting, psychic powers, and close combat cant effect guys in transports. This falls in the shooting phase. Its the same thing with saying that you dont get cover saves from a Tervigon coming out of the ground. I feel sorry for GW. I guess I always have the option not to play someone who tries these things.

insaniak wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:Say that GW does issue an FAQ that addresses Spirit Leech and that it indeed doesn't affect units in vehicles. Everyone is just going to say that GW isn't ruling per RAW. Everyone that supports it affecting units in vehicles will then say that faq's are not official with them just being house rules so do not have to be followed.

And the vast majority of players, who do accept the GW FAQ's, will play it as FAQ'd. Which is why in YMDC we count the FAQ's as official rulings.

This.

broxus wrote:Simply, you cant effect things that have been removed from the table. Sure they can take a leadership test but there are no models there to suck wounds from so its a moot point its the same reason they cant break and run.

Wrong, again. If a model is firing a Gets Hot Weapon from a Transport, they are affected by the weapons assploding on a roll of 1 and have to take an armour save.

It specifically states that shooting, psychic powers, and close combat cant effect guys in transports.

Guess what? It is neither Shooting, a Psychic power or a Close Combat attack.

Gwar! wrote:

broxus wrote:Simply, you cant effect things that have been removed from the table. Sure they can take a leadership test but there are no models there to suck wounds from so its a moot point its the same reason they cant break and run.

Wrong, again. If a model is firing a Gets Hot Weapon from a Transport, they are affected by the weapons assploding on a roll of 1 and have to take an armour save.

It specifically states that shooting, psychic powers, and close combat cant effect guys in transports.

Guess what? It is neither Shooting, a Psychic power or a Close Combat attack.

Gwar, I agree on the weapon gets hot roll, and agree the RAW with that sentance says the siphon will effect the unit, but I think its very washy and for sure not RAI. There countless loopholes for that stuff. Saying that they can opens up an entire can of worms for other skills and powers to start it and I think we both know that isnt the intent.

broxus wrote:I think we both know that isnt the intent.

Do we? Last I checked I was not Robin Cruddace. Are you?

RAW wise Gwar! and co are correct. RAI wise...

When a rules decision takes a good unit usable against some armies to a 'no brainer' addition to ANY list in a spod, we may have taken things a wee bit farther than the studio intended.

That's the thing, the Doom is not a no brainer by any means. Tyranids need their anti tank so bad that giving up an elite slot for one zoanthrope is just not a good idea in most circumstances. I could see how the Doom would be a problem in small games though, but remember he still can be instant death'd just fine.

broxus wrote:Honestly, hitting troops in transports we all know RAI is not going to happen. I swear people will find ways to twist verbage anyway they want to help out their armies. If this skill was suppose to hit troops in a transport I think we all know they would have stated it in the codex. Simply, you cant effect things that have been removed from the table. Sure they can take a leadership test but there are no models there to suck wounds from so its a moot point its the same reason they cant break and run.

It specifically states that shooting, psychic powers, and close combat cant effect guys in transports. This falls in the shooting phase. Its the same thing with saying that you dont get cover saves from a Tervigon coming out of the ground. I feel sorry for GW. I guess I always have the option not to play someone who tries these things.

It is not a psychic power, shooting attack, or close combat attack... soo..... yea....


On a related note however, while I agree with the RAW being it can affect units in a transport, I will not be playing it this way until an FAQ comes out. I played this way last night against a friend, podded in between 2 eldar transports and a squad of jetbikes. I dropped an entire squad of aspect warriors in one transport, 90% of another aspect squad, and 4/5 of the jetbike squad on the first leech. I then blew up one of the transports with the str 10 ap 1 blast. It just felt too damn cheesy

Also, I think I will revise my opinion on the issue. I'm now slightly doubtful that GW will FAQ it to not work, after all it's an "aura" just like a culexus assassin's ability, and that works from transports, right, so I don't see why an "aura" couldn't work the other way around. You can die from your plasma gun inside a transport after all, so it's not like transported models can't die.

broxus wrote:Honestly, hitting troops in transports we all know RAI is not going to happen. I swear people will find ways to twist verbage anyway they want to help out their armies. If this skill was suppose to hit troops in a transport I think we all know they would have stated it in the codex. Simply, you cant effect things that have been removed from the table. Sure they can take a leadership test but there are no models there to suck wounds from so its a moot point its the same reason they cant break and run.

It specifically states that shooting, psychic powers, and close combat cant effect guys in transports. This falls in the shooting phase. Its the same thing with saying that you dont get cover saves from a Tervigon coming out of the ground. I feel sorry for GW. I guess I always have the option not to play someone who tries these things.

It seems likely that this gets FAQ:ed, but really, I don't think it's very strange either way if someone thinks/doesn't think it affects units inside a transport...

Given that the Parasite's ability specifically states that it does, it seems likely they would have done the same with the Doom, if that was their intention.

Mod note: Let's leave off the FAQ's and their legality, and most definitely leave off inventing creative names for other forum members, and stick to the topic at hand... assuming anyone has anything else constructive to add that hasn't already been covered.

So then RAW versus RAW:

Doom of Malan'tai Spirit Leech Ability states:

"...every non-vehicle enemy unit within 6"...."

What is the first thing you would then do to determine if a Rhino with a tactical squad is within that 6" radius?

Well per the BRB, you measure to the hull of a vehicle to determine the range to the unit.

But the rule just said non-vehicle units within 6" and yet I am measuring range to a vehicle. Am I not breaking the very DoM rule?

The rule specifies a non-vehicle enemy unit. If I am measuring to the hull of a VEHICLE to determine the range to the unit, how is it possibly a non-vehicle enemy unit and therefore subject to Spirit Leech?

So those that point out that Spirit Leech is an area affect condition and not a psychic power or shooting attack. I agree. It is as some of you said, an aura or condition affecting non-vehicle units within 6"

However, say my above rhino transport moves into difficult terrain, do I roll 2d6 for the 10 man squad in it to determine how far the rhino moves? Since vehicles treat difficult terrain as dangerous terrain, would I roll 10 dice for the squad and any 1's are removed as casualties? This is just a condition or "aura" of moving in difficult/dangerous terrain.

So while the in-game mechanics exhibit through several examples that the unit is treated as a vehicle when embarked what makes the DoM suddenly special? It isn't RAW since the rule does say non-vehicle enemy units and the tactical squad inside said transport is treated as part of the vehicle until they disembark, the vehicle is destroyed, or they shoot from a firing point.

Brother Ramses wrote: Am I not breaking the very DoM rule?

No, you are not. You are measuring to the embarked non-vehicle unit. How the range is determined is altered, but it does not alter the fact that you are determining range to a non--vehicle unit.

No other ability in the game affects units from outside a vehical (See Eldar FAQ for Reference). The only thing close is a few pages back that the Parasite SPECIFICALLY says it targets units in vehicals why would they not put it in the Doom's section if it did as well.

This is definitely going to need a faq, probably really an errata but knowing GW they will faq it.

There is a reasonable interpretation that this is a psychic power akin to the eldar warlocks powers, since they all operate automatically with no tests. But that would require a faq/ errata since its not RAW.

Another reason that the "doom" needs some faqing is that it doesnt actually get an invulnerable save, per the RAW. It tells us to see pg 44 when it mentions warp field....and on pg 44 we just see that this other type of unit called zoanthrope gets a 3+ invuln save. But not the Doom, since its not a zoanthrope. The warp field part RAI is clear, but the rest of it gets murky.

How this ones going to end up is anyones guess.



Sliggoth

CajunMan550 wrote:No other ability in the game affects units from outside a vehical (See Eldar FAQ for Reference).

The Eldar FAQ has as much sway over the Nid Codex as the SW one did (i.e. none). Also, plenty of "abilities" affect units in transports. One such "ability" is the "Gets Hot!" rule. Another is the "Soulless" rule found on Pariahs and Cullexus Assassins.

The only thing close is a few pages back that the Parasite SPECIFICALLY says it targets units in vehicals why would they not put it in the Doom's section if it did as well.

Here is a humble guess. The two abilities are different? Because the PoM doesn't need to be in a certain range? The list goes on I assure you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sliggoth wrote:This is definitely going to need a faq, probably really an errata but knowing GW they will faq it.

Hah, gotta love how we already know how GW are gonna mess up.

Another reason that the "doom" needs some faqing is that it doesnt actually get an invulnerable save, per the RAW. It tells us to see pg 44 when it mentions warp field....and on pg 44 we just see that this other type of unit called zoanthrope gets a 3+ invuln save. But not the Doom, since its not a zoanthrope. The warp field part RAI is clear, but the rest of it gets murky.

Yup, I pointed it out (at least I think I was the first one to point it out, apologies to whoever did if I was not) a while back

"No other ability in the game affects units from outside a vehical"

Actually, there's at least one. Spirit Sight, from an Eldar Warlock. If you have a unit of Wraithguard in a transport, and that transport is within 6" of a warlock, they don't have to test for wraithsight paralysis.

CajunMan550 wrote:No other ability in the game affects units from outside a vehical (See Eldar FAQ for Reference). The only thing close is a few pages back that the Parasite SPECIFICALLY says it targets units in vehicals why would they not put it in the Doom's section if it did as well.

So you would have a problem with any ability as long as it is the only one in the game, then? Would you say that Daemonhunters force weapons do not really kill outright because no other ability does this? What about Mawlocks inflicting hits on units they arrive underneath of? I'm pretty sure nothing else in the game can do that.

Brother Ramses wrote:So then RAW versus RAW:

Doom of Malan'tai Spirit Leech Ability states:

"...every non-vehicle enemy unit within 6"...."

What is the first thing you would then do to determine if a Rhino with a tactical squad is within that 6" radius?

Well per the BRB, you measure to the hull of a vehicle to determine the range to the unit.

But the rule just said non-vehicle units within 6" and yet I am measuring range to a vehicle. Am I not breaking the very DoM rule?

The rule specifies a non-vehicle enemy unit. If I am measuring to the hull of a VEHICLE to determine the range to the unit, how is it possibly a non-vehicle enemy unit and therefore subject to Spirit Leech?

So those that point out that Spirit Leech is an area affect condition and not a psychic power or shooting attack. I agree. It is as some of you said, an aura or condition affecting non-vehicle units within 6"

However, say my above rhino transport moves into difficult terrain, do I roll 2d6 for the 10 man squad in it to determine how far the rhino moves? Since vehicles treat difficult terrain as dangerous terrain, would I roll 10 dice for the squad and any 1's are removed as casualties? This is just a condition or "aura" of moving in difficult/dangerous terrain.

So while the in-game mechanics exhibit through several examples that the unit is treated as a vehicle when embarked what makes the DoM suddenly special? It isn't RAW since the rule does say non-vehicle enemy units and the tactical squad inside said transport is treated as part of the vehicle until they disembark, the vehicle is destroyed, or they shoot from a firing point.

Question. If you have guard vets (BS4) inside a transport vehicle that come within 6" of Dante, do you play them as having BS3 or BS4? The mechanic for DoM works the exact same way, and I know that I play them at BS3 when within 6 as per Dante's rule. . .


So, just to sum up the last half page of posts, there are tons of auras that affect units inside a transport, this one just happens to do damage. . . it's RAW, it makes the Doom good, just gotta get used to it. I play it purposefully against raw in friendly games because a) it ticks people off and b) I'm tired of arguing it.

And yet at what time does the bs upgrade affect them? When the rules specifically changes their condition from a vehicle unit to a separate non-vehicle unit via a fireport, when they disembark, or when the vehicle is destroyed. Until then it doesn't have any affect.

Does this affect the vehicle gunners as well? DoM makes no mention of the vehicle crew.

Brother Ramses wrote:And yet at what time does the bs upgrade affect them? When the rules specifically changes their condition from a vehicle unit to a separate non-vehicle unit via a fireport, when they disembark, or when the vehicle is destroyed. Until then it doesn't have any affect.

Does this affect the vehicle gunners as well? DoM makes no mention of the vehicle crew.

Nooo.... it affects them as soon as they enter the range of the aura. It just happens to not matter until they try to shoot. Them walking up to the fireport does not magically make the aura affect them. It's on all the time, as soon as they are in range.

Just because it doesn't have a significant effect doesn't mean that it isn't active, and it doesn't say, "while they are shooting" or "when they disembark", it says, "when they are within 6 inches".


Also, it doesn't affect vehicle gunners, but that was never under debate anyway.

I have a question that I think has not being answered which in my opinion would make this ability to be used on troops inside of a vehicle unable to function. What happens when the unit fails its leadership save and has to fall back while in the vehicle?

Vehicles are not affected by any form of leadership so it would not fall back and it would remain stationary.

The unit inside however has to fall back if they have failed (p45, "Fall Back!") but they cannot disembark because you only do that in the movement phase.

So what should happen now that they have failed there leader ship test? Do units forced to Fall Back that are inside transports dismount and then fall back? (which you cannot technically do int eh shooting phase) Or are they simply destroyed as the transport model is a friendly unit that stops them from moving?

Im curious to see what other people will come up with.

Im in the mind since you cannot complete the ability due to not being able to make the unit fall back it should not be able to be used on a unit in a vehicle. Just my two cents.

It's unclarified and a rather large grey area. It doesn't mean that these abilities don't work though, otherwise you would never be able to fire a plasma gun from a chimera for fear of "gets hot" rolls.

Lukus83 wrote:It's unclarified and a rather large grey area. It doesn't mean that these abilities don't work though, otherwise you would never be able to fire a plasma gun from a chimera for fear of "gets hot" rolls.

I don't understand how being in a vehicle would stop a gets hot from wounding the firer of the weapon. Its a pretty straight forward rule if your asking me. What im asking however is not.

Golga wrote:I have a question that I think has not being answered which in my opinion would make this ability to be used on troops inside of a vehicle unable to function. What happens when the unit fails its leadership save and has to fall back while in the vehicle?

Vehicles are not affected by any form of leadership so it would not fall back and it would remain stationary.

The unit inside however has to fall back if they have failed (p45, "Fall Back!") but they cannot disembark because you only do that in the movement phase.

So what should happen now that they have failed there leader ship test? Do units forced to Fall Back that are inside transports dismount and then fall back? (which you cannot technically do int eh shooting phase) Or are they simply destroyed as the transport model is a friendly unit that stops them from moving?

Im curious to see what other people will come up with.

Im in the mind since you cannot complete the ability due to not being able to make the unit fall back it should not be able to be used on a unit in a vehicle. Just my two cents.

It never says disembarkation only happens in the movement phase. It says VOLUNTARY disembarkation is only in the movement phase, but a unit may be forced to disembark if the vehicle is destroyed. Another instance this might occur is a fallback move.

What do you think happen if a 5 man unit loses 2 models to gets hot?


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Golga wrote:

Lukus83 wrote:It's unclarified and a rather large grey area. It doesn't mean that these abilities don't work though, otherwise you would never be able to fire a plasma gun from a chimera for fear of "gets hot" rolls.

I don't understand how being in a vehicle would stop a gets hot from wounding the firer of the weapon. Its a pretty straight forward rule if your asking me. What im asking however is not.

Because, just like DoM, losing 25% squad to gets hot causes a morale check, which if failed ends up with the very problem you posed...

Not if the get's hot rolls result in a morale check due to casualties. It's happened to me before. So according to your opinion you wouldn't be able to use them...

Kurgash wrote:Are Nid players really that desperate for a handout from under the table, looking for as much twisting of a rule to get a slight edge? This is the 7th guy ask this question TODAY, from Dakka and FLGS.

No. Unit in transport, unit is not actively on the table aside firing weapons from inside. Cannot affect inside the vehicle, you affect the vehicle. End of story. Let's PLEASE put this to rest.

Then please explain how a psychic hood outside a transport can stop a psyker inside a transport from using his ability. I mean he is not on the table to trigger the hoods effect right? Or is he on the table to trigger the hoods effect but not the Dooms effect. And no it's not about Nid players being desperate it's about being consistant with your rules ands not all emo whining about how something might adversely affect you precious favorite army.

[

Another reason that the "doom" needs some faqing is that it doesnt actually get an invulnerable save, per the RAW. It tells us to see pg 44 when it mentions warp field....and on pg 44 we just see that this other type of unit called zoanthrope gets a 3+ invuln save. But not the Doom, since its not a zoanthrope. The warp field part RAI is clear, but the rest of it gets murky.

If you are stating that Doom is not a Zoanthrope.....then what is he then? That brings another question what is the Deathleaper? Is not a Lichtor..........then his rules are gimp then.

Doom and Deatherleaper are a special character name , one is a type of zoanthrope and the other is Lichtor

Gwar! wrote:

CajunMan550 wrote:No other ability in the game affects units from outside a vehical (See Eldar FAQ for Reference).

The Eldar FAQ has as much sway over the Nid Codex as the SW one did (i.e. none). Also, plenty of "abilities" affect units in transports. One such "ability" is the "Gets Hot!" rule. Another is the "Soulless" rule found on Pariahs and Cullexus Assassins.

The only thing close is a few pages back that the Parasite SPECIFICALLY says it targets units in vehicals why would they not put it in the Doom's section if it did as well.

Here is a humble guess. The two abilities are different? Because the PoM doesn't need to be in a certain range? The list goes on I assure you.


It doesn't matter that there different of course there not gonna do the same thing but why in all hell would you not put on the ability that it can affect units in vehicals if you did on another pages before. Having had other codexes FAQ'd to say they can't when the codex doesn't list they can it only makes sense that he can't affect units in vehicals since it is not listed.

Next gets hot is a weapons rule not an Ability like a spell or power. Also the LD reducers of the two listed examples follow things like Pedros +1 attack which is granted regardless of where you are.

By your logic my Jaws of the world wolf can hit units in vehicals it can't hit the vehical but the guys inside are fethed.