Hey guys. I'm helping Nash get ready for broadside bash, and i still need a lot of table time with nids before I can start painting. So we got in a 2k game using a broadside bash mission. it was basically spearhead deployment with table quarters for objectives.

The lists...

swarmlord
2x tyrant guard lash whips
3x hive guard
3x hive guard
2x venomthropes
21x termagants
21x termagants
tervigon with catalyst toxin sacs adrenal glands and crushing claws
tervigon with catalyst toxin sacs adrenal glands and crushing claws
tyrannofex with rupture cannon
tyrannofex with rupture cannon

ghazghkull thraka
big mek with kustom force field and burna
3x meganobs kombi-skorcha, kombi-rokkit
15x lootas
5x lootas
5x lootas
19x boys nob with power klaw bosspole
30x boys nob with power klaw bosspole 3x big shootas
10x gretchin 1x runtherder
1x deffkopta twin-linked rokkits buzzsaw
1x deffkopta twin-linked rokkits buzzsaw
battlewagon kannon 3x rokkits red paint reinforced ram boarding plank
battlewagon kannon 3x rokkits red paint reinforced ram boarding plank
3x killa kans 3x rokkits
3x killa kans 3x rokkits


tyranids won the roll to go first, and deployed like this...

The big flying stands represent T-fexes, and i have one blank 40mm base in there that represents the second venomthrope.

Orks responded by deploying thusly...



TOP OF ONE
I move up and flatten out my line, keeping gants in front of everything, and did a pretty good job folding everything except the MCs intoa 4+ cover. One hive guard unit had some range difficulties due to bad difficult terrain rolls and managed to weapon destroy a kan, the other unit did a bit better and killed one kan. The tyrannofexes were accurate, but could not produce any lasting damage on Ghaz's wagon. I put catalyst on my two hive guard units.

BOTTOM OF ONE
Both wagons moved up 13" to get their rokkits online, the big boy unit moved up but didn't really have anything good to contribute aside form their big shootas. So the kans and the lootas all combined on my hive guard and managed to deal 3 total wounds after cover and feel no pain.




TOP OF TWO
I was testing to see if Nash was stupid, and hung one of my gant units out so that ghaz could charge them. The other moved up quite a bit, in an effort to get some shooting on the boy unit, I moved both tervigons up, to keep the gant engine powered up. After moving up like that with the tervies, both of them needed to make babies to keep themselves screened off. I doubled up on one, and the other didn't double. The swarmlord was tired of being cooped up, and broke from the lines to charge some killa kans, he couldn't quite get to the boy unit. My hive guard and one t-fex were able to move into side armor shots on ghaz's wagon. here comes the first generalship error of the game... I was really worried about Nash's boy unit counter-charging the swarmlord, so i used a catalyst on him, failed the psych test, then used my other catalyst on him. So now I've got two venomthropes between my tervigons and all of those rokkits. I shot at the boys and killed 4-5 off, i shot at ghaz's wagon and got an immobilize off, and I shot at the other kan unit and killed one more. Swamlord charged the other kan unit and killed 2, leaving one left alive... perfect.

BOTTOM OF TWO
nash kept his wagons stationary, as he wound up his haymaker punch. His first shooting came from the boys riding the battlewagon, killing my venomthropes. i went to ground, but failed an atrocious amount of 3+s. I'm sure Nash had the firepower tucked away to finish me even with average rolls. Next one of his deffkoptas, his last kan, both wagons and all lootas went in to my to tervigons and took BOTH of them out. As you could imagine i lost quite a few termagants, and the remaining termagants went from imposing to just useless scoring units. Ghaz decided to get out, since his ride was immobilized, and he just shot up and killed off one of my gant units with nothing else to do. i noticed that gaz was in reach of swarmlord, and that probably saved me from being tabled. swarmlord popped the final kan and was off to fight ghaz.



TOP OF THREE
Swarmlord moved right up behind ghaz's unit, the t-fexes moved up to help out (after ghaz's waaagh of course) and my gants all went backwards as fast as possible heading for cover. most of them were in swarmlords massive 18" synapse... but i had to take one IB test on a big gant unit on my left, and it passed. i shot and killed the last kan with a t-fex, and the hive guard just started pecking at the side armor of ghaz's wagon just to shut down all of those rokkits. Swarmlord got leech essence off but couldn't wound, and he also got paroxysm off. Swarlord did what you'd expect him to do (we were treating him as an independent charcter, not an upgrade character, fyi) he got three wounds on the meganobs. Pop, pop, pop, and my tyrant guard went after ghaz, Nash was going to have to pop waaagh so as not to get run down, so he only took one wound from the tyrant guard. paroxysm wrecked ghaz's attacks, he scored no wounds at I1.

BOTTOM OF THREE
nash moved the troop wagon up in order to claim a quarter, had the grots in the back quarter and the boys in another quarter, everyone ranged up to try and take out as many gants as possible, I had one big unit and 3 small units left. He managed to wipe out a three man unit, which meant I could not win, but could still tie. i had a pretty untouchable unit in the back of my table, and a decent sized gant unit that survived with 6 men threatening another quarter. Swarmlord finally pointed his attacks at the prophet, and rolled four 1s to wound. ghaz's 2++ was still in effect so that wasn't really a big deal. Ghaz was only able to get one wound on a tyrant guard with paroxysm in play.



TOP OF FOUR
Not much for my specialty shooting to work on, so I moved my shooty units up as far as possible, and moved my gants to as safe of a place as possible, took some potshots, and then we were about to go into combat. the game was really about whether or not nash could get 6 gants to run off table or not so we skipped over combat with ghaz and swarmlord (i think we all know who was going to come out of that one alive ) So after my shooting we went right to nash's turn (we could resolve the combats later if it was going to matter)

BOTTOM OF FOUR
nash's boys move up to get their shootas on the 6 man unit, and the lootas that can see and reach them dumped into them too. He was able to kill all 6 so no morale test was needed. In the remaining three turns, it would be impossible for me to win, so we called it...




THOUGHTS

Well, nash's list has been tuned for weeks now. he may not have known how to fight against nids, but I was really up against a hard list. Since I barely know how to fight WITH nids, I think there wasn't really any advantage for either of us.

For once I think i have less to complain about with my list, and more to complain about in regards to my generalship.

First of all... Why the hell did i think i could stand off against Nash's list? somehow i thought that my resiliency would make it possible for my piddly anti-tank speciality shooting to stand up to 17 rokkits, 3 big shootas and 25 lootas.

Swarmlord was a real terror. If I could have connected with his boy unit, I was certainly going to be able to beat it down, I was able to easily handle ghaz's unit, if only I had another swarmlord running around

If we played it again, rather than keep my venomthrope cluster to cover the t-fexes (what was I thinking, nash didnt have any AP2) I would have lined my t-fexes up much more aggressively. My tervigons actually beat kans, and my t-fexes would be able to win as well if supported by ANY other unit. nash's list had superior firepower but inferior close combat capability by a mile, and i should have seen that right off the bat. i would have just given him the bum's rush from the get-go. that might have silenced his rokkits faster, and I might have been safe from them in CCs.

thats not to say the game wasn't close. I was aggressive with swarmlord (even though i almost didn't make that aggressive move) and he was a really serious problem for nash. In the future, I'm going to commit all of my MCs much more aggressively, against just about everyone. My gameplan clearly needs to move away from "my tervigons aren't allowed to die" because against a few different armies, that isn't really possible. The new plan is going to be "Go kill the things that kill tervigons... even using the tervigons to do it".

Which is funny, because my list has the tools to be aggressive like that... the t-fexes can be terrorizing to infantry units and hordes with the large blast and thorax weapon, of course you need to use discretion, I'm not charging 30 man boy units with floating klaws with one t-fex, but if i had just bum-rushed, I would have had a rather large termagant unit accompanying him.

The hive guard would be the unit in the list that wouldn't really help me accomplish my aggressive gameplan... but even they are required, because they might be my best bet to herd and eventually shoot down the flying, fast, stuff that is constantly disengaging.

I really want another venomthrope, and I'd LOVE a tyranid prime. So I want to find 145 points... i am entertaining the idea of cutting two hive guard. But I'd still need 45 points. i don't think i could get away with losing 9 termagants. And I don't want to lose any tyrant guard. the crushing claws are vital to making this new aggressive playstyle funtional.... anyone have any thoughts on what is cuttable?

I really want a rematch with my new aggressive gameplan, and I'm gonna be playing lik that against space marines too. withswarmlord on deck, I'll trade a tervigon for ALL of your assault marines... He really was the missing component of the list. Not sure if I'll win a crushing victory against Nash's list in the rematch, but I would certainly not do much worse.

Thanks for reading...

How are your T-fexes working out for you? They seem a bit expensive for what they can do.

Regwon wrote:How are your T-fexes working out for you? They seem a bit expensive for what they can do.

Well, in about 8 games with them, I have lost one once. As far as points equivalent survivability, they are priced accordingly...

You put the only respectable long range anti-tank gun in the codex on that, and it is already looking pretty reasonable.

What I am just discovering, and have learned that one or two other people around have already learned, is that the model has a potential to be a much more aggressive force in a nid army. 265 for a railgun might be pricey, but 265 for a railgun on turn 1-2, that becomes a large blast/flamer on turns 3-4, and a very reasonable close combat MC in the later game starts to look like a steal. Put it out there, with nearby deathstar support, dare people to charge it while the deathstar lurks nearby, or charge something with the support of a termagant unit.

i still really like the unit, and i bet i'll love it once a perfect a more landslide overload style of gameplay.

Nice battle report.

Do you think the swarmlord is worth it? he is slow and hugely expensive and has no ranged other then psyker abilities so takes an aweful long time to get into combat and is unlikely to make his points back.

I'm testing a Tyrant again but with strangle thorn cannon and prefered enemy with the ws 1 power. This tyrant is sort of mediocre so far just costs so much for what he does It did get a lucky kill on a speeder and kill some long fangs though.

Anti horde is rough. Super gaunts hold up ok vs ork mobs but if they waagh and you get charged things aren't so good even with FNP. I'm thinking maybe run biovores but no points and they bad vs mech till you pop a tank.

I been running t-fexs too and I have the same proxy as you a valkyrie base. The rupture cannon really needed to be twin linked or have more shots, I find they miss a vehicle twice more often then I would like and hardly get any vehicle kills but are a necessary evil and points sink so you don't get shot up by Vendettas or Las cannon Predators. t-fexs usually do a good job of surviving unless they get jaws, after all they the king.

Kirika wrote:Do you think the swarmlord is worth it? he is slow and hugely expensive and has no ranged other then psyker abilities so takes an aweful long time to get into combat and is unlikely to make his points back.

I am more sure about him in this list than any other unit. He hard-counters assault terminators. Not having that in my meta is crazy. It doesn't take him that long to get there. Not having a gun doesn't really hurt because you need to be running with him every turn. In this particular game, Ghaz's unit would have embarrassed a hive tyrant. I score three wounds on his nobs, none of htem cause instant death, he loses no models, I have no invulnerable save. My own counter-charge unit explodes... its not comparable. the only nid unit with an invulnerable save in CC that actually wants to be in CC.

Kirika wrote:I'm testing a Tyrant again but with strangle thorn cannon and prefered enemy with the ws 1 power. This tyrant is sort of mediocre so far just costs so much for what he does It did get a lucky kill on a speeder and kill some long fangs though.

Yeah i already tried the regular tyrant that shoots. Now you aren't running and you are shooting a bad lascannon or a decent large blast... he is too pricey for that. perhaps with wings and the HVC to get more side shots... but he isn't the assault terminator/nob/thunderwolf cavaly answer, so you might as well just take more hordey elements.

Kirika wrote:Anti horde is rough. Super gaunts hold up ok vs ork mobs but if they waagh and you get charged things aren't so good even with FNP. I'm thinking maybe run biovores but no points and they bad vs mech till you pop a tank.

Ahh and this is where I blew it as a general. I had four MCs with large blast templates and two with flamer templates. If I just push hard on those boys right from jumpstreet, and lay out three large blasts on them, then i am outshooting them, then they waaghcharge into counter-charging initiative 4 gants with poison and spore cloud. Or they charge into an MC, almost kill it, then get rules by furious charging termagants.

I was going to start running biovores and 9 hive guard and tervigons and just be organic gunline guy... but the more and more different armies I play against, the more i realize how few armies i can actually outshoot.

Kirika wrote:I been running t-fexs too and I have the same proxy as you a valkyrie base. The rupture cannon really needed to be twin linked or have more shots, I find they miss a vehicle twice more often then I would like and hardly get any vehicle kills but are a necessary evil and points sink so you don't get shot up by Vendettas or Las cannon Predators.

If t-fexes work out as an assault tank i'll keep using them, the turn 1 shots are a good way to silence some incoming fire that you are going to take, and are vital for nid murderers like vendettas and typhoon speeders. I've seen the shots double miss, and double hit, and split, and hit LRCs a bunch but fail to pen, if it turns out that the only thing t-fexes are good for is the rupture cannon, then i probably would just trade them for adrenal tyrgons... but if my hunch is correct and they are a better front line gunbeast, then they are going to be a steal at 265. if they continue to perform well, then i could even see running them with the fleshborer hive or the hellhound shot.

Thanks for the great report. Your detailed analysis of the different units strengths and weaknesses has been very helpful as I redo my nids.

Very nice report, added a lot to the new hivemind tactics.

My thought on that 45pts would be: remove adrenal glands on both tervigon and drop 5 termagants. since the furious charge and counter charge dont work together any more ,and +1I wont make crushing claws any faster. what you lose from that is the impact of charging termagants (which I think most time they will get charged by others) and the +1 Str on a charging Tervigon.

Do you need both tervigons? I'm just wondering if it'd work with 1 tervigon, 1 termagant unit, and maybe just one other, more aggressive troops choice -- stealers? Warriors? Hormagaunts?

Ian Sturrock wrote:Do you need both tervigons? I'm just wondering if it'd work with 1 tervigon, 1 termagant unit, and maybe just one other, more aggressive troops choice -- stealers? Warriors? Hormagaunts?

Could work... I had two before so that i could catalyst both hive guard units... but now it seems like either swarmlord or the tervigon is taking catalyst, so one might be just fine. less collateral damage when he dies too.

brood progenitor does have a way of making opponents freak out though. At least for the next couple of months that rule carries a bit psychological advantage.

Nice report. I do like your list but am wondering if some zoanthroaps world be good here. The idea is to use the blast template to kill off the horde elements at 30inch. Much like space puppies use squads of missiles to take out armor and inf.

Also, this is a nub question, can mc run? You were saying above that in a tyrant you would swap run for shooting, but quite often the shooting can be very effective against list like the one you came up against

Glad you've gotten a bttle report up. Why not try taking the claws off of one tervagon and using it to cover the other one? OR using the tyranofexen to cover both. The Issue I have with Tervagon lists is that then usually turn into don't kill my tervagons. Giving Nid players something else to worry about. I say just take one with claws ( I try to keep mines under 200 points. Both glans and Catalyst). Have you thought about moving your T-fexs forwared with a gant bubble wrap? Venemthropes work take another one. 15 Termagant broods will do the job of sucking up fire, giving cover-saves and bubble wrapping your Tervagon (If you take one). Cut one Tervagon and 6 gants from each gant brood. (340 points if my math is right). use those points for 5 Y.genestealers 155 points. 5 T5 Mutation genestealers that can assault the turn they come in. An alpha with bonesowrds for 90 and the rest on warriors I think would help. Either way you can do a lot with 300+ points.

The problem is you are getting sucked in by the garbage 265pt (maybe one hit if your lucky each turn) capsule cannon.....anyway I have some thoughts on the Tyranofex.

I picture it being like the big shock troop beetle from star ship troopers, not a tank sniper. Its too bad every body saw the 2 shot st 10 cannon and forgot the other guns.

Next time try to arm 1 (yes 1 2 is a point sink) with the electroshock beetles, cluster spines and the main flamer weapon, thats 3 large template weapons per turn while moving. Against orks and other hoard armies that thing will be pretty nasty. Use a tervi to let him fire them all on the run and bam thats a surprising blitz with a rocket proof 2+ save.
Even if thetyranofex doesn't kill much the chaos it will cause and psychological scare should disrupt the enemies battle plan.

thats my 2 cents, and I guarantee it will ultimately be the way people arm these big fellas in competent lists.

I looked forward to reading this batrep when I saw you had posted it today. Nash's ork list looks quite formidable. It seems like your list is starting to come together now and I think the addition of the Swarmlord with Tyrant Guard is a great choice. I would keep this unit as you have noted it's an excellent psychological deterent for your opponents and he is such a beast in close combat plus the 4+ invulnerable save is huge. I'm glad to see you are considering branching out to try some new units. There are a lot of strong units to choose from and I don't think a lot of spam is necessary to be competitive.

G

I agree with Green Blow Fly. The Tyranids have a huge synergy thing going, so they seem to really reward diversity. Something I'll note is that, despite lack of paint-jobs and the 'counts-as', the first picture really looks like what a Tyranid swarm is supposed to. Kudos!

Shep wrote: the crushing claws are vital to making this new aggressive playstyle funtional.... anyone have any thoughts on what is cuttable?

Crushing claws, both of them to be replaced by sything talons. Lots cheaper, makes use of those adrenal glands and importantly bumps up your str to 6 and your I to 2. With FNP you can weather virtually any amount of non-PW attacks and those nasty klaws and P.fists (in things like MANs, Assault termies and the like) you can actually kill off a few before they hit you.

Also, importantly, re-rolls to hit against vehicles when you roll 1's. Yes its less attacks but your also saving points.

Now heres a question; Why do you want a third venomthrope & Warrior Prime?

Great Report Shep! You are moving much quicker then I am in your competitive progression (I just wish I could get more games in).

I agree with you on the overall aggressiveness of the Nidz. Who would have thought that Nidz would be an aggressive army? Trust me, I know the feeling. I am finding having to force myself to be as aggressive as possible, when you are used to armies with a lot of reliable shooting, you almost have to switch your whole priorities.

I still don't think that the Swarmlord is superior to a standard Hive Tyrant, just like I don't believe in the opposite. It all depends on the list. I am finding that Old Adversary as an area effect to be working better for me then the Swarmlord. My problem is that my local competitive Ork player likes putting 20 uniquely equipped Nobz in your face with 5 Power claws in each unit. That's a little more then the Swarmlord can handle. I am finding things like Hormagaunts and Genestealers deploying with the horde behind the Gaunt screen can counter assault with upgrades like Poison, and Old Adversary lending itself to giving multiple units preffered enemy. When you have some where is the range of 60 attacks with re-rolls both to hit and wound, you find the "super units" folding under sheer weight of wounds. My Hive Tyrant only sees combat to finish units off.

I think Crushing Claws on the Tervigons are one of those, great if you have the points, but not necessary.

I could be wrong, my lists are going in different directions then yours, and my meta is different.

I will tell you, I absolutely LOVE the Carnifex with Scything Talons, Bioplasma, and Breainleech Devourers in a Pod. The cool synergy there is that you find that players often "adsorb" the wounds from the Devourers into wounds they autotake from the Plasma blast, which means they are taking that reduced moral test more often, and the Carnifex is still the best tank hunting MC in the codex. But that is for a more drop list then the one you are building.

How about this for your next test list?

Swarmlord = 280
2 Tyrant Guard = 120
2 Hive Guard = 100
2 Hive Guard = 100
18 Hormagaunts w/ Poison = 144
18 Hormagaunts w/ Poison = 144
18 Termagants = 90
18 Termagants = 90
Tervigon w/ Adrenal Glands, Poison, Catalyst = 195
Tervigon w/ Adrenal Glands, Poison, Catalyst = 195
Tyrannofex w/ Rupture Cannon =265
Tyrannofex w/ Rupture Cannon =265

You loose 4 shots from Hive Guard, but your initial screen goes from 42 to 72. I think the Venomthrope is a little unnecessary, when you have FNP Termagaunts giving cover to other bugs and mid-level bugs, and medium bugs giving cover to MCs. But one your Gaunts are assaulted, countering with Poison Hormagaunts that have a pretty fierce reach, higher initiative and more attacks (plus a possible Furious Charge from the Swarmlord), and I think you will be breaking combats in your favor. If you play aggressively. Hormagaunts behind a Gaunt screen and being able to fleet past them for preemptive charge is great.

I could be wrong. There are no bad units in the Tyranid codex, just bad synergies. I will say these tactics did work against an SOB army with AP 1 Exorcists and a round of shooting that involved 7 flamer templates.

I am starting to "Get It" with the codex. I agree with you shep you should try to become more aggressive. With the addition of the swarmlord the list becomes alot more physical. I dont think crushing claws tervigons are going to be enough to fit your new aggressive style.

I am using a similar list, except my strategy is slow moving shooting swarm. The T-fex is a shooty anti-infantry beast, I dont like paying 265 for 2 bs 3 str 10 shots, the players in my area will just swallow that and ignore him and go after my other units, thats what nash did in this report. It fits the strategy but it isnt 265 worth of fiting the strategy.

It seems to me whne speaking about the Tyrannofex people always forget he has a template weapon that wounds on a 2+ and a large blast it can fire 18" away. If you play the Zoans as your only tank busting well good luck against any space marine list with a hood or the spacewolves list that takes two hoods. The cost on the tyrannofex may seem expensive but in all the games I played two of them more than make back their points.

I think nids overall would have an issue with orks, lootas just seem perfect for owning tervigons and things

Overall good report!

This might have been said before but according to the codex you have to pop babies before you move the tervigon.... Would be awesome the other way around first turn assault anyone? Move Tervigon 6" pop babies out 6" move them 6" shoot assault.... Shudder


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahu wrote:

I could be wrong. There are no bad units in the Tyranid codex, just bad synergies. I will say these tactics did work against an SOB army with AP 1 Exorcists and a round of shooting that involved 7 flamer templates.

The Pyrovore is just plain bad... Let's see... we give it low toughness short range and when it gets popped it blows up and hurts us... I think it was evolved by Hive Fleet Fail.

Thanks for the report. I will have to live vicariously through you until I finish current non-Tyranid army like a good little hobbyist boy.

It's fun reading about a new army and seeing what they can do.

- Blackbone

ill be honost, Raveners have been an all star unit for me, and i love to use lictors and hormogaunts, with toxin sacs, they just mow down lots of things, if you know you'r opponents like to hold things in reserve or try to outflank or even just put sniper units off the side you can give a HT hive cmd which i do and love and outflank 20-30 homogaunts and its just outstanding. Heck, Swarmlord even has the abilite to give one troop the abilitie to outflank, and then reroll if you dun like where it outflanks too!

But Raveners rock still, 5 of them with rending claws makes alot of people nervous, as they can potentially have 25 Attacks on a charge, rending, can pop most vehicles if they get there, have a 6 move, up to 6 run, are fleet and have a 12 inch assualt range. If you wanna be more aggressive these are the unit for you

Thanks for all the discussion guys...

I played two more games this weekend. Both against great testing partners. And I learned a LOT more about nids. I also got to watch Manimal use a tervigon the way they are supposed to be used... and it made me say "oh I get it now".

I'm going to do batreps when i get a chance... but just as an example one tervigon killed 3 5man marine units over 2 turns, even with a critical amount of anti-infantry shooting and flamers nearby...

Tervigon never made babies until those babies could issue a charge without ever getting shot at, and the tervie would stay within 6"... Then it was a one-two-three punch... Probably about the best 220 points you can spend. he is a land raider for free gants, and no slouch in CC himself. i have started using him accordingly, and got a VERY convincing win against IG by using him thusly.

Crushing claws are way better than scy-tals. i drop preferred enemy on tervigons on occasion with swarmlord, I don't want 0.5 attacks, I want four times that number of attacks. i still have adrenal glands so i'm still strength 6... I'm not I2, oh well, I'll take 1.5 more attacks and more efficient use of preferred enemy over 20 points and I2 once per combat.

All this talk about t-fexes is funny, because I actually am off of them for the time being. For 15 more points, you can get two trygons with adrenal glands and one mawloc. I ran that against IG and actually beat a dedicated gunline. Once I started using t-fexes as aggressive MCs i started wanting fleet, and thats when they became trygons. The trygon is better than the mawloc, but every once in a while there is a unit out there that the mawloc excels at harassing, like lootas for example its those cases that make the third heavy a mawloc.

The rupture cannon doesn't suck... in that game against IG, nids went first and so IG held vendettas in reserve and outflanked. They spent the first two turns killing all the hive guard and one trygon. When all the MCs hit their lines, they got pretty wrecked... but had they actually had troops in their vendettas, they might have been able to steal a win back or possibly a draw. because once the hive guard died, I didn't have a way to get back behind my lines to kill off those encircling skimmers. If I hard-rushed the gunline with t-fexes, they wouldnt have been as good at killing vehicles in CC, but late game they could start shooting at the vendettas that are on the other side of the table. Now, I think i prefer the 18 wounds with a 3+ save over 12 2+ save wounds. And both of them "work". And since I am learning to play aggressively with nids, I am sticking with the three heavies for the time being.

If anything i learned that vendettas and an astropath are even better than I already thought they were.

One more thing... I am starting to get into devourer gants for my troop choice gants. Take 15-20, scoot up with the rest of the army, shooting at targets of opportunity, stay more than 6" away from tervigons... and eventually be the ones to take the further back objectives. What do you guys think of that?

Thanks for the further updates Shep.

Have you considered trying gargoyles now that you are playing more aggresive? They seem like a good addition to an army running swarmlord and tervigons in aggro mode. Also did you ever try out lictors in place of the more tried and tested elite choices?

Ohh and:

One more thing... I am starting to get into devourer gants for my troop choice gants. Take 15-20, scoot up with the rest of the army, shooting at targets of opportunity, stay more than 6" away from tervigons... and eventually be the ones to take the further back objectives. What do you guys think of that?

I've thought about that also. I dunno if they have the staying power to really cap an objective if all your synpase is beating face up the field. I had considered having a prime babysit them and perhaps putting that whole package in a pod (but only actually getting in the pod should it be neccesary to keep the buggers alive long enough). The whole thing has more staying power, synapse to keep things working how you want and you have the shooting to clear an objective of non-mechd cappers.

winterman wrote:Have you considered trying gargoyles now that you are playing more aggresive? They seem like a good addition to an army running swarmlord and tervigons in aggro mode.

My new list that i'm going to be playing with starts with this non-negotiable core...

swarmlord with 1 guard
3x hive guard
3x hive guard
10x termagants
10x termagants
tervigon with crushing claws, adrenal glands, toxin sacs and catalyst
tervigon with crushing claws, adrenal glands, toxin sacs and catalyst
trygon with adrenal glands
trygon with adrenal glands
mawloc

That leaves me with 230 points to spend. I have already run it where I just dump all of those points into the gants to make give them devourers and to take lots more. I can just about fit two three man warrior units with some upgrades in there. I could run some zoanthropes, I could rune genestealers, and I could run gargoyles. After playing the game against IG, i would like some backfield synapse. Which makes me think of zoans or warriors. But genestealers are tempting since I have swarmlord. Also gargoyles are tempting with swarmlord being able to throw the long range preferred enemy onto them. Its hard to shoot at them when there are so many other priorities, and I am actually kind of curious on about how much of a trygon they'd cover with their wings and tails. Anyone put the new ones in front of our MCs yet?

winterman wrote:Also did you ever try out lictors in place of the more tried and tested elite choices?

Not yet. i don't think i'll run lictors until I have a much more reserve heavy list. However, they are another option for those last 200ish points. I suppose I will probably be deepstriking the heavies in dawn of war, so he could come into play then, and they combo very well with swarmlord.

Based on my tourney results from this weekend, I'm going to get more aggressive too. It's either Tyrannofexes for real tankbusting at range or Trygons and pods to get in their face, and I prefer the latter style. Plus, I have 3 Trygon kits (1 FW, 2 GW) and really don't feel like converting Tyrannofexes.

The Land Raider approach to Tervigons makes a ton of sense. Hadn't really thought of it that way, but I feel like I've been having more success with Tervigons the more patient I've gotten about spawning.

@winterman -- I've mulled over devourer Termagants in a pod, figuring on dropping them with some combination of Zoeys, Trygons, Trygon Primes and/or Dakkafexes. What I've struggled to get my head around is if it's better to drop a mix of targets (big/medium/small) or just stick with MC drops. Which means I really need to test it and not sit around theorizing.

Did you test out upgrading one of the Trygons to a Trygon Prime, Shep? I know they have fair Leadership anyway, but getting that DSing synapse + Shadow In The Warp + an extra 6 shots seems like a pretty good deal for 40 pts.

One question: how do you get trygon or mawloc cover save? I mean if you start on the board without cover they could die fast due to long range weapon, be it rocket or lascannon.

Shep,
Are you going to the Broadside Bash? It would be good to meet some more Dakkaites there. I know a number of guys from the boards are coming and I will be there myself.

Nice report as always, both lists look nasty, although the most recent rendition definitely looks more worrisome as a Guard player. One turn to take out all of those monsters is not enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I agree with ED209, with such a large model, starting on board will very likely result in at least one dead trygon when facing a dedicated shooting army.

ED209 wrote:One question: how do you get trygon or mawloc cover save? I mean if you start on the board without cover they could die fast due to long range weapon, be it rocket or lascannon.

Reecius wrote:And I agree with ED209, with such a large model, starting on board will very likely result in at least one dead trygon when facing a dedicated shooting army.

I didn't have a cover save. There are far too many hoops to jump through to get a save. I had first turn and 6 hive guard. That forced the guard player to reserve his vendettas. (Vendettas are over 8" long. Even with their tails at the edge of the board, hive guard get a turn one shot. Chimeras with a 25mm back buffer for emergency disembarkations are only 5" long and therefore safe to deploy.) I put catalyst on each of my hive guard units,and then moved forward and ran with everyone. On the bottom of turn 1, the IG player has to choose between shooting the trygons, which will have no impact until turn 3, or to kill off the hive guard, which will be wrecking chimeras next turn. With no missile launchers (it is a guard army after all) and the lascannons safe in reserve... shooting at 3+ armor is only slightly better than shooting at fnp and cover. And since they'll have another full turn to work on trygons, they shot at hive guard. 9 hive guard wounds later, it is turn 2. Now everyone has run up again, no charges to declare, but the remaining two hive guard stun a vehicle. The mawloc missies its chance to stun a vehicle and the turn is passed...

It seems odd at this point, because nothing has really happened to the IG line yet, but they've only really accounted for one unit themselves, which is much lower than their usual output. On their turn 2 they manage to go to work, completely removing one un-cover saved trygon with the help of two of three vendettas arriving. Now vehicles have to move because they are getting charged, and the meltas can't all converge on any other MC (plus the CCS melta carrier was shaken) So the hydras and multi-lasers that can fire combine to remove the last of the hive guard. two wounds were put on the mawloc from meltaguns, and some gants were killed with manticores.

Pretty reasonable shooting output considering the army. But this was the turning point. Top of three charges were declared by the mawloc, a trygon, two freshly born gant units, and two tervigons. 6 vehicles were engaged, and each one was at least crew shaken. the mawloc trygon and both tervigons did permanent damage to their targets. At this point the IG line is almost completely flattened out, so special weapon support is impossible to mass, their third vendetta shows up and the mawloc is killed off, the other vendettas and hydras put work into a devourer gant unit and kill about 75% of it. And thats all they can muster.

When the swarmlord connected with the stationary hydra unit and the trygon was able to reach a stationary troop chimera that seemed out of reach thanks to fleet, and each of the tervigons charged a new target and created new gants that can move and charge, that was it. The vendettas were alive, and likley not going anywhere, but the rest of the gunline was in complete tatters. It was assured that there would be no surviving troops, and the vendettas would have to risk MC charges every time they moved in to block an objective.

Ultimately, with first turn against IG, the trygons werent going to be shot at until turn 2 for reasons I mentioned. Against a missile heavy space marine force they are more likely to be shot at, but you can then just choose to catalyst them. if you've seen the trygon model, and placed things in front of it, you'll see that it is not really feasable to ask for a cover save from just about anything. Also, and even more importantly, not deploying your trygon at exactly the 12" mark and moving him as far forward as you can possibly go every turn is just a bad idea.

Reecius wrote:Shep,
Are you going to the Broadside Bash? It would be good to meet some more Dakkaites there. I know a number of guys from the boards are coming and I will be there myself.

Nice report as always, both lists look nasty, although the most recent rendition definitely looks more worrisome as a Guard player. One turn to take out all of those monsters is not enough.

I'm not going to BB, but I'll be at the slaughter in space... if you make it to that one hit me up.

I'll be at the slaughter, see you then. I always like putting a face to a name here on Dakka.

Yeah, with target saturation I can see that you can force a player's hand.

God, those hive guard are criminally underpriced. They should be a minimum 75 points. But oh well, have to find a way around them.

Ogryns are looking more and more appealing for my Guard. I use them for fun and they always perfrom well against other for fun lists, but against things like Mawlocs, Gants and Tervigons they are actually a really good counter.

So, Shep, would you say that between the same core you'd take the Trygons+Mawloc over the T-Fexes?

Ok, thx for the explanation ,now I get the concept, a massive T6 army that overwhelming enemy fire power, I think this is some how close to the principle of last edition Zilla army, even some T6s are not MC, could be a good replacement for Zilla, cheers

Maybe the next thing I want to see is the performance when against horde or skimmer heavy list.

Good stuff Shep.

I had almost written off the Tyrgons (and variants) after lack luster performance in playtesting, though I think you stumbled on their true synergy.

I myself has started dropping the Tyrannofex as well. Mine can't seem to hit the brood side of the barn.

Are you going to be at Adepticon?

Reecius wrote:Ogryns are looking more and more appealing for my Guard. I use them for fun and they always perfrom well against other for fun lists, but against things like Mawlocs, Gants and Tervigons they are actually a really good counter.

Just keep them far, far away from Swarmlord

Mosg wrote:So, Shep, would you say that between the same core you'd take the Trygons+Mawloc over the T-Fexes?

Way too early to tell... Thats what I'm doing for the next set of games... I kitbashed two tervigons and to be honest I need a break before i start working on t-fexes. If it works out that thetrygons are as good or better, then I saved myself some headache.

Mahu wrote:I had almost written off the Tyrgons (and variants) after lack luster performance in playtesting, though I think you stumbled on their true synergy.

Lets hope so... I need to figure out if I can survive going second against that same IG army. I might need to hold the trygons and possibly even the mawloc in reserve (since vendettas can reach just about anywhere with that scout move) In my games against land raider marines I seem to always wish my tyrannofexes were trygons, but against typhoon and predator based marines I am certain i will miss my rupture cannon.

Mahu wrote:I myself has started dropping the Tyrannofex as well. Mine can't seem to hit the brood side of the barn.

I'm sure you aren't letting some statistical clumping cloud your view of the gun. I have found that it is an excellent shot for these targets... Hammerhead, typhoon, vendetta, predator, vendettas, hydras, manticores, fire prisms... basically every light weight, fast long range tank that will have its butt firmly placed at the table edge. What the rupture cannon does not do consistently is kill land raiders or leman russes. Your best bet on those might be to just get some CC going on them with MCs.

Mahu wrote:Are you going to be at Adepticon?

Adepticon is on my bucket list... but i haven't been able to make it yet, and it might be a while before i figure out how to get there. How do you guys travel with your armies? Do you carry them on the plane? Do you ship them ahead of time?

I'm bringing mine on. You can take two bags so I'm bringing my large Sabol case as well as a standard Sabol army transport case. When Battlefoam releases the 720 I'll probably pick one up to use as my airtravel bag.

I'm sure you aren't letting some statistical clumping cloud your view of the gun. I have found that it is an excellent shot for these targets... Hammerhead, typhoon, vendetta, predator, vendettas, hydras, manticores, fire prisms... basically every light weight, fast long range tank that will have its butt firmly placed at the table edge. What the rupture cannon does not do consistently is kill land raiders or leman russes. Your best bet on those might be to just get some CC going on them with MCs.

I agree, and I am not writting them off. Maybe you have to play a few games without something to learn the value of said thing. Hopefully I can put together another Battle Report this week. We start testing for adepticon.

Adepticon is on my bucket list... but i haven't been able to make it yet, and it might be a while before i figure out how to get there. How do you guys travel with your armies? Do you carry them on the plane? Do you ship them ahead of time?

This year, I am road tripping with a few friends. In past years though, I have just taken my Sabol Bag in as a carry on and checked the baggage with my clothes. It is interesting to say the least getting an army past security, but more often then not, they won't give you issues and you are sure not to loose anything.

What area do you hail from? All you need is a way there and a few days free

Anybody tried units of Lictors or Ymgarl stealers yet? Strikes me that those could be a very good firefighting sort of unit.

How are finding dawn of war deployments for the nids, especially without the tyrannofex's. I played a 1750 game against my buddy Dan running a similar list to yours (the 2 trygon version) in a DoW game last night with my marines and it was such an uphill battle for him as his hive guard couldnt get in range to shoot anything till turn 3-4

How are finding dawn of war deployments for the nids, especially without the tyrannofex's. I played a 1750 game against my buddy Dan running a similar list to yours (the 2 trygon version) in a DoW game last night with my marines and it was such an uphill battle for him as his hive guard couldnt get in range to shoot anything till turn 3-4

I am curious also. Dawn of war is a big reason why I am hesitant to rely on MCs and hivguard for anti-tank. Only test game I have gotten with the new rules was dawn of war and the 2 t-fexes were money. The hive guard couldn't do much until mid game and even then only had non-vehicle targets to engage.

It seems like all the abilities for Tyranids to Deep Strike or Outflank pay off in Dawn of War.

Just keep them far, far away from Swarmlord

Haha, very true!

Anybody tried units of Lictors or Ymgarl stealers yet? Strikes me that those could be a very good firefighting sort of unit.

Ymgarl stealers look like they could be amazing, but they just compete with such vital units. Hive guard and Zoeys (IMO) are really essential to a list. The stealers and lichtors seem like they are great but don't do anything other entries in the list can also do. Elites contains the best ranged anti tank units, and those are essential for Bugs.

Khornatedemon wrote:How are finding dawn of war deployments for the nids, especially without the tyrannofex's. I played a 1750 game against my buddy Dan running a similar list to yours (the 2 trygon version) in a DoW game last night with my marines and it was such an uphill battle for him as his hive guard couldnt get in range to shoot anything till turn 3-4

winterman wrote:Dawn of war is a big reason why I am hesitant to rely on MCs and hivguard for anti-tank. Only test game I have gotten with the new rules was dawn of war and the 2 t-fexes were money. The hive guard couldn't do much until mid game and even then only had non-vehicle targets to engage.

Nurglitch wrote:It seems like all the abilities for Tyranids to Deep Strike or Outflank pay off in Dawn of War.

The list I am offering up does indeed eat it a little bit on dawn of war. The only good thing about dawn of war is the shortened game length. In an objectives, playing a 4 turn game would probably help nids. dawn of war annihilation would probably be a disaster without t-fexes.

Like Nurglitch mentioned, you'll just have to deep strike with the heavies, come down in the right spots so you can't get ruined too hard by massed special weapons, its possible that my last 230 points could be spent on a significant amount of toxin stealers, not so much for pitched battle but more for spearhead and dawn of war. If you bring them on withthe twin-linked outflank roll in a line, you can protect trygons from bad scatters a little more, and crash a flank a lot better.

Dawn of war just looks really bad, make no mistake, but I think you just bite the bullet and deep strike, hope for some good run rolls on the hive guard, crash a flank and do nothing with swarmlord at all. I'll request a dawn of war for my next test game and see if i find anything else that might help us there. If the alternative is to not take hive guard, or to take podding thropes, I'd rather just have the disadvantage in dawn of war... hive guard are too good to pass on in both spearhead and pitched. As to the tyrannofex edging out the three big guys... that is definietly a possibility, I am holding out as long as I can though. I don't need another "shoot first" army. I have IG, tau and ultramarines.

Your 230 points could be spent on ymgarl stealers. I know they have a bad rep, but if you are saturating their lines with heavies it makes sense to get a couple of your opponents shooty units in cc before they can open fire. Or use them to open up transports and surround the exit points. Or stop that pesky PF from charging your mawloc.

Not trying to steal your thread but I have had great experience with saturating enemy lines with DSing stuff and using the stealers to tie up a hard unit and a winged tyrant to reduce BS on another.

Of course in my local meta only 1 player runs full mech (eldar) and he had trouble dealing with my trygons (though he did avoid them quite well). I have yet to have a go against IG but I'm optimistic. I'm learning to use the synergy of the list and the rewards are being reaped.

Shep-

If you have some free time, are you up for a game or 2 on Friday (Feb 12th)? I would like to get a little practice against the bugs before the Broadside Bash.

If not, maybe we can get in a game on Presidents Day or Tues?

Shep,
Spearhead deployment and the table quarters victory conditions really--almost perfectly--suited that Ork list. Why not deploy heavy reserves in this case and come in on the long table edges after the ork battlewagons and kans are bit more dispersed?

Blackmoor wrote:Shep-

If you have some free time, are you up for a game or 2 on Friday (Feb 12th)? I would like to get a little practice against the bugs before the Broadside Bash.

If not, maybe we can get in a game on Presidents Day or Tues?

friday would be cool after work... gimme a call next week, if you lost my # PM me

Shep, Really enjoy the updated list, the dual Trygons, are something of a scare factor for myself, as to the fact taht i have already fought one trygon with regenerate and it totaled a whole 8 wounds, an 8 wound Trygon, when it gets down to 4 wounds Regenerate becomes very good, but really enjoyed the list, would love to see more of your lists and battle reports great read.

Well it looks like hitting the enemy line hard and fast can work after all. I think two Trygons is about right. Anyways Shep it's great to hear you are making some significant strides with your army list design and tactics.

G

I think that nids NEED both speed and deployment options to work. A traditional line up and shoot/charge nid army is asking to lose every game.

If your still looking to fill 230 points, I would run 3 zoans in a cluster spine pod. Gives more anti tank, gives some backfield support if needed, synapse, and the pod actually makes a good objective contester considering the enemy loses vital s8 shooting to take it out.

I also have stuck a pod right in front of heavy shooting tanks, making the enemy have to kill the pod if they want to do anything with their tank. It can be a very good diversionary unit in that case.

As for your list, I am still trying to figure out how you run your trygons. Do you always intend to start them on the board? (except for games when deepstrike is obvious) I never considered a footslooging trygon before, I would take a second tyrant with a single guard instead. Costs a bit more, but has the same wounds, and will pretty much always get a cover save--and also grants bubble preferred enemy to BOTH the tervigons, and gives the option to outflank with a tervigon.

That said, I also made the decision to run toxin stealers in place of trygons for my army (though I only got 2 test games in so far). Any thoughts about adding a small 'stealer shock force in place of the trygon shock force? You said yourself the trygons dont get stuck in till turn 3 at the earliest, well 'stealers can almost guarentee assault on turn 2, and with infiltrate can almost always start in cover. They lose some anti-land raider ability, but I think they wreck transports pretty well.

Personal experience has shown me that eldar farseers shut down zoanthropes. Heck, even hoods can do the job, so it might be worth looking into deathleaper.

Of course if you aren't using tyrannofexes it can completely change the synergy of your list so you may have to fill other potential gaps that show themselves.

40kenthusiast wrote:Anybody tried units of Lictors or Ymgarl stealers yet? Strikes me that those could be a very good firefighting sort of unit.

I've used Ymgarls a few times. The text book example was in a game against Tau. One reason to take them was because I play a genestealer cultist army using the tyranid rules, so I really wanted some elite stealers. Another good reason was because I havn't aquired or modded many new models since the new list came, so I only have 3 zoanthropes to fill my elite slots with. However, I managed to make good use of the Ymgarls by dorming them in a piece of terrain that was quite far from where my main assault force was. So two Hammerheads were sitting nearby taking pot shots at my tervigon, feeling safe far away from my dangerous stuff. They got charged and destroyed. I was then (after consolidating behind one of the wrecks) pretty much safe from the bulk of his armys firepower for the next turn. And I had made sure there was a pretty big area of his tablehalf where he suddenly did not want to retreat his battle suits to. They kept their heads down for a turn to keep threatening the possible retreat zone, and then rushed to disrupt an objective holder.

They doesn't always work that good, but most of the time that I bring them they cause my opponent some worries because it is sort of her/his resposibility to avoid them, and I like to play mindgames. I expect them to do a one shot hit to destroy something dangerous, and then get shot to pieces. Most games they do this, some games I just get frustrated by them being so much less flexible than a drop pod, and they end up running for a round then getting shot up.

Mind you, my local meta is not very competitive. There are skilled players indeed, but we prefer some flavour and story to our games. And I don't really have to expect heavily mechanised armies, so I get by OK with only a squad of Zoeys, a squad of Ymgarls and some MCs as anti tank.

(sorry for the thread-steal...)

Khornatedemon wrote:How are finding dawn of war deployments for the nids, especially without the tyrannofex's. I played a 1750 game against my buddy Dan running a similar list to yours (the 2 trygon version) in a DoW game last night with my marines and it was such an uphill battle for him as his hive guard couldnt get in range to shoot anything till turn 3-4

winterman wrote:I am curious also. Dawn of war is a big reason why I am hesitant to rely on MCs and hivguard for anti-tank. Only test game I have gotten with the new rules was dawn of war and the 2 t-fexes were money. The hive guard couldn't do much until mid game and even then only had non-vehicle targets to engage.

Oh boy did i take a beating from IG this weekend when they went first. It was so bad that I am rethinking a few things. I might completely give up a loss to every guard player that i cant seize the initiative against. Or I might have to bring back the t-fex. Also, every guard army I have written in the last 3 months can consistently kill 6 hive guard that haven't been catalysted yet. in fact, at 2k points any guard army can kill 6 hive guard AND take a full 6 wounds off of an MC in a single round of shooting! The fact that after your hive guard are wiped, a slow moving nid army has to move and run and then take that firepower AGAIN is too much. Manimal tabled me in 2.5 turns, I had the honor of killing one suicidal CCS before I was tabled. I'll talk more about that game down a bit further.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:I think that nids NEED both speed and deployment options to work. A traditional line up and shoot/charge nid army is asking to lose every game.

Well, as of yesterday... forget the alternate deployment options. INAT has done the predictable, and pretty much shut down another armies capability of starting completely off-table. Hive commander doesnt stack and doesnt work when off-table. So prepare to have either a hive tyrant or swarmlord deployed on table if you want to use any mycetic spores... and against IG, that means there is a target on table. if thats all you put down that was a threat, he'll be dead long before you get his +1 anyway. The single option presented to nids when versing a gunline is to target saturate. No sense reserving a trygon if you've already got 6 hive guard, two tervigons and a swarmlord on table. Just set him up with the rest and get that guaranteed turn 3 charge. Same would go with a dakka fex. Just get those shots going on turn 2 at the front armor rather than waiting for reserves to show up. Even zoanthropes more consistently get a turn 2 shot when deployed on table. Now they might be a high enough priority target to pod... but the concept still stands...

But some good news from INAT... They just put the swarmlord into the top slot of CC uberness... I'll be building around him unless GW contradicts their ruling...


Ok, so... that "IG going first" game... like i was saying earlier, if you don't go first, you don't have hive guard. That might be ok if you've got a plethora of other stuff thats going to be punishing vehicles on the bottom of turn 1. But our only real options there are the venom cannon and the rupture cannon, and both versions of the venom cannon are terribad. The t-fex has the very useful and respectable rupture cannons, and is also packing a template weapon and a large blast weapon in a really hard to kill package. I am currently pretty sure that i want three t-fexes if i feel like I'll be facing maximum overdrive, IG, witch hunters tau or any other gunline. All those armies can 'peace out' the hive guard with no problems thanks to the plethora of autocannons or missile launchers they have access to.

As i was mulling over what to do to get even a 30/70 matchup against gunlines when i lose first turn, I came up with two ways to go...

The first way, is just to ratchet up the resilience factor even more... Ditch hive guard for a third t-fex, bring in venomthropes and possibly switch into a single pod full of zoanthropes if needed. Something like this at 2k points has already held up better against top of one shooting from IG on paper...

swarmlord
3x tyrant guard with boneswords
venomthrope
venomthrope
venomthrope
tervigon with crushing claws adrenal glands toxin sacs and catalyst
tervigon with crushing claws adrenal glands toxin sacs and catalyst
10x termagants
10x termagants
tyrannofex with rupture cannon and cluster spines
tyrannofex with rupture cannon and cluster spines
tyrannofex with rupture cannon and cluster spines

Remember if you don't have the table time versus nids that the t-fexes aren't hammerheads, they deploy on the line of scrimmage with all the other MCs and they are coming at you. The only difference between going against a gunline and going against an aggressive army is that they will have a termagant screen against the aggressive army... against the gunline the tervigons will save gants for charges.

The other way to go against a gunline i have been mulling over is to just crash the lines with EVERYTHING on turn 2. Go with more fragile models, try to stay completely immune to missile launchers and autocannons, and overload the typical anti-mech load-outs...

parasite of mortrex
10x genestealers
10x genestealers
10x genestealers
10x genestealers
10x genestealers
10x genestealers
25x gargoyles with adrenal glands and toxin sacs
tyrannofex with rupture cannon and cluster spines
tyrannofex with rupture cannon and cluster spines
tyrannofex with rupture cannon and cluster spines

Gargoyles leap over infiltrating genestealers on bottom of one and give them cover as they move forward, and the t-fexes get 6 strength 10 shots. Next turn, there are probably four more strength 10 shots coming... plus a potential 7 charges, 6 of which will wreck any armor 10 rear vehicle that didn't move cruising speed.

Problem with this list over the other list, is that I have no idea how it will do against an opponent that actually wants to mix it up with you. No matter who you fight, you have a lot of hard hitting CC in both lists. But the first list has a deathstar, the second one will have some problems versus elite CC...

So what do you guys think... just give up the bad matchups to gunlines? Or build for that matchup and then test against demons and land raiders after i found something that gets some respect versus IG?

Nids rip demons apart from my experience. Watch out for tallyman though, he can give you all kinds of fits. Kills off a gaunt squad and something else and suddenly your trygon just got spanked by 6 plague bearers.

Question?

Why give the Hive Guard Boneswords? There's the Power Weapon effect, but doesn't the Swarmlord already have that? Wouldn't you be better served by Lashwhips?

Can't argue about IG. As I said before, what Rob Baer's mech IG gunline did to my army at the Cabin Fever tourney was just indecent. Five HG and my Zoeys were dead almost instantly, and that pretty much sealed the game. I coulda done a few things better and my army could have included a better mix with more prep time, but really I was absolutely trumped if I faced him and he and I even joked about that on the previous day.

I'm gonna add in some deployment flexibility for the St. Valentine's Day Massacre (I had very little for Cabin Fever), but realistically it's not going to make a difference against a tuned IG army run by a good player with the right targeting priority.

So in the short-term, I'm gonna concede some beatdowns to IG. My attempt to crack the gunline nut will be a long-term thing. I think your line crash list is a good attempt, given the VERY disappointing INAT rulings regarding reserves. I think you'd certainly have to "general" your way around certain other matchups, but at least you're trying to give the IG player a game. Disembarked flamers will be painful, but at least you'd have the eggs cracked.

Nurglitch wrote:Question?

Why give the Hive Guard Boneswords? There's the Power Weapon effect, but doesn't the Swarmlord already have that? Wouldn't you be better served by Lashwhips?

It's really a byproduct from the "upgrade character" ruling by INAT. Just to refresh... they ruled that the swarmlord can join and leave the unit freely as if he was an independent character... but while joined, he is not independently targetable. So this means i am free to siphon off a controlled flow of power weapon wounds or thunderhammer wounds that would normally be hitting the tyrant guard, and take 4+ invulns against them. I wouldnt risk taking them all, but i can keep tyrant guard in the fight longer, survive the initiative five attacks and then unleash some very high quality attacks.

Another element as to why i chose that, is that you have to keep in mind the difference in the tyrant and guard interaction. I think so many people are used to the tyrant and guard being glued together at the hip that they forget that the tyrant guard is a completely self-sufficient unit. When not facing enemy deathstars, doing a saucer separation with the unit and taking on two enemy units rather than smashing a 505 point unit into a rhino is going to be the best way to keep them out of the points sink catagory...

When looking at it this way, i decided to ask myself, would i pay 195 points for a unit of three T6 2 wound models with lash whips and rending claws? probably not. Would i pay 225 for that same unit with power weapons that could potentially cause instant death (certainly a threat to nobs and thunderwolf cavalry). I think I would.

Not to say that lash whips aren't a good choice when points are short... its just that if I did want the option to make it two units, I definitely pony up for power weapons.

I like your lists and your will to thwart IG guns lines. With all those Initiative 1 MC's - I would feel compelled to include a Deathleaper?

Something like this:

Swarmlord
3x tyrant guard with boneswords
1x venomthrope
1x Deathleaper
3x Zoanthropes in pod
1x tervigon with crushing claws adrenal glands toxin sacs and catalyst
1x tervigon with crushing claws adrenal glands toxin sacs and catalyst
10x termagants
10x termagants
tyrannofex with rupture cannon and cluster spines
tyrannofex with rupture cannon and cluster spines

kaiservonhugal wrote:I like your lists and your will to thwart IG guns lines. With all those Initiative 1 MC's - I would feel compelled to include a Deathleaper?

Something like this:

Swarmlord
3x tyrant guard with boneswords
1x venomthrope
1x Deathleaper
3x Zoanthropes in pod
1x tervigon with crushing claws adrenal glands toxin sacs and catalyst
1x tervigon with crushing claws adrenal glands toxin sacs and catalyst
10x termagants
10x termagants
tyrannofex with rupture cannon and cluster spines
tyrannofex with rupture cannon and cluster spines

I like your list... I'm not in the pro-deathleaper camp, though. It'll take a LOT to sell me on him. If he hard-countered Jaws i'd consider it, but he lowers its pass rate by a mere 8% 33% of the time, and even when you win the lottery and get the -3, the rune priest still has a 55% percent chance to pass. The rest of that 140 points you bought on death leaper just does nothing... I've been aggressive with him, I've been careful with him. At some point, he is going to have to get close to something if you want to get some use out of him, and right after he does get close, he gets taken out. At least in each of the half dozen games I've played with or against him in.

Your zoanthrope swap for a t-fex is not a bad call. I could see that being a possibility. Right now I need to see exactly how good the t-fex is, and if i want the one shot wad-buster zoanthropes, or if the re-usable consistant survivability of the t-fex is the better investment.

My opponents are gaming the zoanthropes even more than before just by charging them in CC. One would hope you'd draw some heavy weapons fire after landing in order to justify how close you were on arrival, but the smart players are just not even wasting a single bullet and just charging with a combat squad. Marines have 3+ invulnerables too when fighting zoans. if i can't get over to support the lone zoanthrope unit, that might have just shot into a KFF or smoke based cover save, or might have been hooded/rune weaponed to oblivion, then they aren't going to put up the same score by end of game that a t-fex would have gotten.

Those are just my reasons why i wouldn't go that route. not reasons why the list you suggested isn't a good one.

Shadows of the Warp combined with the Deathleaper (JAWWs has a 24 inch range) should effectively shut it down. 3d6, pick the 2 highest with a -2 to LD on average...

I think youre right though - JAWWS isnt something we need to build for but rather just deal with.

Shep:

Thanks for the summary. I've been digging around, but I haven't read the INAT FAQ for Tyranids yet. My group doesn't use it, but I figure I have to know it so I can understand some of the conversations around here. Still, now that you put it like that, it seems like a good idea.

Back to the problem of bringing a shooting gallery for the Imperial Guard, something that occurred to me on another thread was that many people were ranking the Imperial Guard as the most competitive army because they were the most flexible: S10 large blasts work pretty well against anybody (go quantity!).

But in another thread I railed against the Bastion Breacher ammo for the Medusa precisely because they weren't flexible; they're good against large vehicles and bunkers, but not so much better and considerably less flexible than the usual Medusa ammunition.

Given that there's two approaches to dealing with an army that's going to be engaging in massive shooting, either mechanizing everything to mitigate the number of soft targets and maximize the number of hard targets, or putting everything in reserve, and that Tyranids categorically have no armoured units, and putting everything in reserve is either prohibited or unwise, I thought it might be something to see what could be done with Tyranids to survive that first turn salvo.

My thought is this: rather than trying to do something fancy, give those degenerate sophicates a healthy dose of pure and unreasoning violence.

Pending checking the numbers when I get home to my books, I thought:

HQ
Tervigons (x2)
Both with Regenerate, Catalyst, and Crushing Claws if possible.

Elites
Venomthrope x3

Troops
Termagants w/Mycetic Spore (x1)
Tervigon w/Regenerate, Catalyst

Fast Attack
Spore Mines (x3)

Heavy Support
Carnifex Broods
w/Basic Carnifexes, Screamer Killers (nothing fancy, maybe Regenerate).

The idea here is that the broods of Carnifexes are cheap, as cheap as possible where broods of Monstrous Creatures are involved (2 each?). They start on the board backed up by the Tervigons and Venomthropes.

Each Tervigon catalyzes a brood of Carnifex who run at the enemy, right up the middle. So they have cover saves, Defensive Grenades, Feel No Pain, and so on. They're shock troops, giving the enemy something to shoot at. Maybe Regenerate if the points are available; like I said I haven't checked. The Termagants start off the board in a Mycetic Spore, so they're safe, and other scoring units can be generated by the Tervigons as needed.

So each Brood of Carnifexes has a supporting cast of Tervigons and Venomthropes. The Spore Mines are landed behind or amongst the enemy, to try to rear hits, and to blow up any Infantry Platoons.

So, something like 6 Carnifex, 3 Tervigons, 3 Venomthropes, for nine targets in total, in cover, with the meanest most dangerous ones with Feel No Pain, and broods of Termagants ready to be generated as objectives become available. Maybe a Brood of Biovores to keep up the rain of Spore Mines.

Nurglitch, I don't really see what that changes. If first turn means the IG can wipe 6 Hive Guards and an MC off the table before they even move (and they can), I dunno how the Tervigons are going to hold up either.

If the Tervigons drop, you have no synapse and almost no troops.

gorgon:

The notion (I can't really call it an "idea") is that the Tervigons hide behind the Carnifex broods. Which are Fearless, have Instinctive Behaviour: Feed, and in Cover from the Venomthropes. They can kill the Tervigons, but that leaves the Carnifexes free to rampage. There's three Tervigons (maybe more?) to provide some redundancy there, and Dominion might actually see some use in patching up holes between the three groups.

I also imagine, having not checked the numbers, that Carnifexes are tougher, both in Saving throw and Toughness and Wounds, than Hive Guard. Rather than slowing down to shoot, the Carnifexes just run.

Basically target saturation.

That's hopefully after the Imperial Guard have been softened up with Spore Mines.

I believe you're over 2000 already.

If you can completely block LOS to the Tervigons, I guess you're in business. Otherwise there's not much difference -- T6, 6 wounds (for 3 HG), and a 4+ cover save. Regular save is a pip better.

If the IG player can remove your synapse, he's going to give you some problems steering those Carnifexes or contesting objectives with them.

I also think you need to read up on Spore Mine clusters. They don't do what you think.

I've been out of the tourny scene for a few months but what are these guard armies taking that wipes out 6 hive guard and a 6 wound mc turn 1 from range?

Khornatedemon wrote:I've been out of the tourny scene for a few months but what are these guard armies taking that wipes out 6 hive guard and a 6 wound mc turn 1 from range?

Manticores, Medusas, Vendettas, Hydras, Leman Russ Vanquishers

Khornatedemon wrote:I've been out of the tourny scene for a few months but what are these guard armies taking that wipes out 6 hive guard and a 6 wound mc turn 1 from range?

Ok, on saturday, this is what did it...

2x hydras
1x manticore
4x HWS with autocannon
3x vendettas with heavy bolters
psyker battle squad
3 infantry squads with autocannons
7 chimera multi-lasers


On turn 2 I got to eat 8 meltaguns on bring it down orders from two suicidal meltagun CCS. Another round of that same shooting plus those meltaguns dropped two tervigons with catalyst and took swarmlord out. I never touched the vendettas, and that alone was just a death sentence.

Hmmm - Im not sure any list would have a good game against that. What kind of list would give that IG list a run for its money? 41 Heavy weapons UGGGH

kaiservonhugal wrote:Hmmm - Im not sure any list would have a good game against that. What kind of list would give that IG list a run for its money? 41 Heavy weapons UGGGH

haha, kinda how I've been feeling. The good news is... outside of the lascannons on the vendettas, the wounds taken on the hive guard would be cut by 66% if they were pointed at t-fexes. that only does 4 wounds to the six wound MC...

The wounds caused to my mawloc would be cut by 50%... unless of course they were lascannons, but even then, those lascannon wounds would be cut by 33% thanks to the venomthrope. Even better, he shoots at my venomthropes and it takes him all three vendettas just to kill my MSU venomthrope units.

Looks like i probably still lose a t-fex on the top of one. But you just have to hope that the other two t-fexes can temporarily shut down two vendettas (hopefully permanently silencing one of them).

If he choose to take out both of my tervigons on turn 1 I'd be in a different kind of trouble, but at least i'd have 6 rupture shots headed for his vendettas. They may need 4+ covers from t-fexes to survive at all actually. if i managed that, then I might hope to keep them up...

Now that I think about it, its still between 12-15 wounds on cover save having tervigons. they might need to be reserved.... ughh

ORDERS
bring it down x2 causes 2 wounds

SHOOTING
hydras cause 1.67 wounds

2x HWS cause 1.33 wounds

PBS and manticore get .56 wounds

three single autocannons get .22, .22, .22

Lets call that one dead tervigon

seven chimeras get 2.63 wounds

three vendettas get 4.78 wounds (5+ save from venomthrope on lascannon)

tervigon number two R.I.P.

GG... even if i can get three kill shots with t-fexes, it isn't hard for me to believe the rest of the IG army can kill 20 termagants in 5 turns.

I'm starting to feel like Robin might have gone a little too far with IG, or not far enough with nids... INAT isn't helping either. I can't reserve out against IG or I'll come in completely piece meal and get dismantled because I can't stack or reserve my hive commanders. And basically anything i deploy against a seriously competitive IG gunline gets scooped off table if I can't seize the initiative. Hmmm...

Shep wrote:I'm starting to feel like Robin might have gone a little too far with IG, or not far enough with nids... INAT isn't helping either.

+1 I just haven't seen a way that Nids can build to handle our new IG overlords yet. Doesn't mean its not out there, but it sure seems tough to find.

How about fielding a mawloc. I haven't read the INAT ruling but seeing how his large blast is resolved before he actually arrives, and if the IG is running mystics they will be clumped up to get the maximum benefit, he could cause some havoc. Even more so if some of those vehicles can't move out of the way. Just a thought.

I think GW realized they took IG and space wolves way overboard. I guess the collective complaining of many an IG player for the 4-5 years before the new dex got them more then anyone hoped for. They make us eldar guys now look like that monk who set himself on fire.

gorgon:

Right, back home with my books. You're right, I was thinking 4th edition Spore Mines. They work even better in 5th edition because you can use them to deny your opponent deployment space. Think about it: you can only deploy 1" away from them. If they hurt anyone then that's just gravy.

Regarding the list, I expect it is over ~2000pts as I don't have the Tyranid point values memorized yet. Still, I'd have to check them anyways, so I suppose it doesn't matter. Take two:

HQ
Tervigon
w/Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Regenerate, Catalyst

Tervigon
w/Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Regenerate, Catalyst

Elites
Venomthrope

Venomthrope

Troops
Tyranid Warriors (x3)
w/Rending Claws, Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands

Tyranid Warriors (x3)
w/Rending Claws, Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands

Fast Attack
Spore Mine Cluter (x6)

Spore Mine Cluster (x6)

Spore Mine Cluster (x6)

Heavy Support
Carnifex Brood (x2)
w/Adrenal Gland, Frag Spines

Carnifex Brood (x2)
w/Adrenal Gland, Frag Spines

Carnifex Brood (x2)
w/Adrenal Gland, Frag Spines

By my calculations (someone please check this), this comes out to 2000pts on the dot. So only two prongs, but you get to use the Spore Mines to eliminate problems like refused flanks, deploying as far away from you as humanly possible, deploying with convenient corridors of fire, and so on.

HQ
2x 225p = 550p

Elite
2x 55p = 110p

Troops
2x 3x 45p = 290p


FA
3x 6x 10p = 180p

HS
3x 2x 175p = 1050p

I get 2180 points sum from this.

Mellon:

How do you get 290 points? If each Warrior is 45pts, and there's three Warriors in two Broods, then it should come out to 270 points.

The Warriors should be 35pts each, with Rending Claws replacing Devourers for free, and +5pts for Adrenal Glands. So 105pts per squad, for 210 points in total on Troops.

That still puts the list at 100pts over 2000. So lose the Adrenal Glands from the Warriors and four Spore Mines (1 from the first two, 2 from the third).

If you want stackability, you can get it...you just have to have lictors/ 2nd tyrant in play early. Lictors +1 stacks with Hive Tyrant's +1. If you are playing the reserves game you might have to try a Ninja Tau-esque approach. Additionally, I'd like to know what these IG lists are taking myself. I haven't had much trouble vs. Bugs at all. My list looks like this:

HQ:

Command squad w/ 2 meltas, AC
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

TROOPS:

PCS w/ 2 meltas, Flamer
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

10 man squad w/ PG, LC
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

10 man squad w/ PG, LC, PW, commissar with PW
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

10 man vet squad with 3 meltas
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

6 man special weapons team w/ 2 meltas, flamer

ELITES:

6 man PBS
Mounted in chimmy w/ HF

HEAVY SUPPORT:

2 Hydras

Manticore w/ HF

Eradicator w/ Hull HF, 2 plasmacannons

FAST ATTACK:

Vendetta

Vendetta

Banewolf w/ HF

That's 1850pts. Handles bugs with no problems.

I'm in the same boat with not being able to figure out any way to take down IG if they go first. I went second against a decent IG list the other day and got absolutely massacred. It was awful. I shudder to think what it would be like against a tuned tournament army. I agree about the ridiculous imbalance between IG and Nids. I can't imagine a Nid army that can go 50/50 with a strong IG list. And a big problem is that the Nids have to army build with IG specifically in mind, whereas the IG lists that are strong against Nids are strong against all kinds of stuff. Never mind the extra monkey wrench that Nids have to sweat over...whether they'll show up to a table with 2+ JotWW. Or trying to address these issues while being mindful of psyker hate. It's brutal.

I first dismissed T-fexes as horrendously overpriced when I read them, but I came around and gave them a shot. Felt like I handicapped my army spending so many points on something so underwhelming. So I shelved them and looked for alternatives. Well, some more thinking on the matter (and reading some discussions here, including Shep's) led me to try them again. And again, not even close to being worth 265 apiece. I just can't see them making any contribution that justifies the huge pile of points spent on them.

Their best showing was against IG who didn't target them until late (prioritized Synapse). They accounted for 1 immobilized Vendetta, a LC off another, a wrecked Chimera and wrecked LR, and finally a wrecked Vendetta way late, after there was no Synapse left and the remnants of the scoring units were wandering off. Not a terrible showing, but certainly not enough to justify spending 530 points on the pair of them, especially when one spent a turn shooting at the remnants of a suicide melta squad thanks to LD7 IB-Lurk.

Another game, against Marines saw one miss a LR and the other shake a LR on turn 1. On turn 2, one was dead (TH/SS fleeting out of a LR one one side, infiltrating fleeting TH/SS on the other...nowhere to go) and the other failed to kill a LR. On turn 3, he was in combat, and on turn 4 he was dead.

I can't see how their contribution could possibly justify their point cost, unless each one manages at least one pen-5/6 every shooting phase.

Shep wrote:
swarmlord
3x tyrant guard with boneswords
venomthrope
venomthrope
venomthrope
tervigon with crushing claws adrenal glands toxin sacs and catalyst
tervigon with crushing claws adrenal glands toxin sacs and catalyst
10x termagants
10x termagants
tyrannofex with rupture cannon and cluster spines
tyrannofex with rupture cannon and cluster spines
tyrannofex with rupture cannon and cluster spines

This list may survive first turn shooting from the Guard, but then what does it do back? The Tervigons, Swarmloard, and Guard run forward, the Tervs Catalyst and make Termagants, and the T-fexes...destroy one vehicle, immobilize another, and shake a third (on average)? And that's even if you still have all 3. IG has no particular reason to shoot at much else. After the Venomthropes get cleared out, T-fex is the only real priority. The army eats just about as much shooting on turn 2 (and probably without the Thropes at this point), and close to as much on turn 3. There's almost nothing to whittle down enemy shooting beyond those three T-fexes, and they can only do so much. In an objective mission, they'd barely even have to look at the 2 Tervs and 20 Term (plus whatever else gets made) to blow them away and leave it with no scoring units, then they just need to valiantly protect one objective and one Troop, or be ready to send the Vendettas to distant objectives. And aside from the Swarmlord and Guard, what does it do against infantry armies? 18" S5 AP- pie plates can only do so much.

My last playtest game with IG almost made me scrap my idea of playing Nids at Adepticon, and switching back to Daemons. I just hate the 1/3 chance for the Daemon book to screw me over. At this point, I'm about ready to just roll with what I feel is a strong Nid army against a lot of builds, and hope to either dodge IG or get super lucky, and also to dodge JotWW. Basically, I'm wondering whether the odds of hitting IG or Jaws is better or worse than 1 in 3.

What I've been trying to test (played a lot of different builds, but this is the skeleton):
Prime with Boneswords, Poison
3x Warriors with Boneswords, Poison, FC
10 Termagants
Tervigon with Poison, FC, Catalyst
3x Hive Guard
3x Hive Guard
3x Zoanthropes

From here, I've tested several different things. One is a Swarmlord + 2 Guard with Lash Whips. This guy seems almost necessary for handling some stuff. The Warriors can butcher things like Nobz, and maybe TWC if there aren't too many SS's, but the Swarmlord has been my go-to for really nasty things like Waaghing Gazgul, TH/SS Termies, TWC with SS, etc. I like him, but he is a boatload of points. In builds where I don't run him, I typically have a 2nd Tervigon and 2nd unit of Termagants (and maybe an extra Prime).

Then I've been playing around with the Heavies. In addition to testing the pair of T-fexes (haven't tried out 3 yet), I've also tested 3 Carnifexes with 2x Devourers, 3 Fexes with 1x Devourer and 1x Heavy VC, and 2x Trygon 1x Mawloc. Of these, the Dakkafexes have performed the best for me so far, but offer very little to the IG match up. I tried the HVC list with IG in mind (those plus the 3 elite units seems the best AT we'll do without T-fexes), but I didn't like them. They're unimpressive at opening up vehicles (even Rhinos), and the loss of one Devourer makes the anti-infantry roll much less impressive. With the 2 Trygons 1 Mawloc, I never felt like any of it did as much. The Mawloc appearing managed to eat a couple of HWS members one time, 2 Scouts another, scattered completely off another. The Trygons loved to scatter toward something besides their primary target, and then fail the IB test and charge something random. None of them were terrible, but they didn't do as much for me as the Dakkafexes. And against IG they were just fail, especially when I was stuck going 2nd. Burrowed the Mawloc on 1 and left the Trygons in reserve. By the top of 2, Swarmlord was gunned down (there goes the +1 to reserve) and thanks to the Officer of the Fleet, nothing came in on bottom of 2. By the time bottom of 3 rolled around, the game was about over. And I only got the Mawloc (thanks to Officer again). It ate 2 HWT. Next turn everything was dead but the 2 Trygons that showed up. Lost one at top of 5, the other at top of 6. Horrendous tabling.

I'm thinking about something like this, and just hope I don't play JotWW or competent IG:

Prime, Boneswords, Poison
3 Warriors, Boneswords, Poison, FC
Tervigon, Catalyst, Poison, FC
Tervigon, Catalyst, Poison, FC
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
3 Zoanthropes
3 Hive Guard
3 Hive Guard
Carnifex, 2x Devourers
Carnifex, 2x Devourers
Carnifex, 2x Devourers

Few points left to play with. Could make the 3 Fexes into 2 T-fexes with some points, but I lose a giant pile of really strong anti-infantry. Also still contemplating the Swarmlord, but with T-Guard being mandatory for him to live, I can't see dropping over 400 points for the unit in an 1850 tournament. (And I question his survivability against shooting with only 1 Guard.)

All in all, IG seem like an insurmountable task to me with Nids. I don't know what the best answer is. I really don't like "hope I get lucky with pairings," but my Adepticon options look like they'll either be "hope I get lucky with pairings" on the Nids or "hope I get lucky with Daemonic Assault (and hope Kairos doesn't take 1 wound and decide to leave town)" on my Daemons.

sirisaacnuton wrote:stuff

I am in total agreement. I like your last list btw. The internet seems ready to move on to blood angels, and no one has found anything that can step to IG or space wolves... I think that I'm ready to call this codex "tourney underpowered". I'll be making some fun planetstrike/apocalypse/battle mission lists for casual play, and I'll be checking the boards for any revelations... but the initial reaction everyone had at the massive cost hike of each MC was pretty accurate... they cost too much and don't do enough, period.

A piece of advice to any game designer. NEVER, EVER design a "gunline" type army. I know people want to play with that style. I say this as an avid imperial guard player and former cygnar player. The game breaks down, you lose all of the middle ground, and you have no room to make any 'hybrid' armies. Either the gunline wins in the first turn against the all-assault army, or loses in the next turn. Any army that tries to be half-assault half-shooting is hopelessly outclassed in shooting and assault by the paper-rock-scissors other lists. Any point spent on a CC upgrade against an IG gunline is a wasted point, and since all nid MCs are basically burdened with built-in CC upgrades, they are all massively overcosted.

At this point, I'd gladly take a 'mycetic spore assault' rule to get my zoanthropes shooting on turn one, or to get carnifex set up and ready to charge on turn two if people reserve against me. That is a big missed opportunity... along with pheromone trail not working when off-table... because that makes sense

Lets all pray that librarian furioso dreads start just shredding mech gunlines with impunity using shockwave and that the storm harbingers armor 13 starts making the autocannon and missile launcher relics of the old days.... even owning thousands of dollars of IG, I am begging someone at GW to wreck my gunline list with a popular codex, one that isn't just another gunline. If we can just get IG and space marines/wolves to actually spend a reasonable amount of points for effective shooting, rather than 10 point autocannons/MLs then maybe that can open up some breathing room for a ground and pound nid army.

Until then, see you in planetstrike...

Shep:

What do you think of Spore Mine Clusters?

Nurglitch wrote:Shep:

What do you think of Spore Mine Clusters?

When i first saw the dex, I really liked the idea of seeding the nemy deployment zone basically just to get some minor disruption on deployment. Since the fast attack slots all looked fairly weak, I was excited about them. And was going to run 3 units of three.

But once I got into list building, nid lists are so tight on points that I could just never get those 90 points opened up...

So, i like them, but haven't been able to work them into lists.

Shep:

It's just I managed to forget the new way they worked, proposed using them in this thread, was reminded to go back and take a second look, and I keep thinking about the utility of disrupting deployment.

Think about it, land enough from orbit in the enemy deployment zone prior to deployment and they're going to have to deploy where you want them (more or less...) rather than where-ever is most convenient.

You could seed them in areas where a tank could go hull down, or where an artillery unit could fire at you with impunity. Just the idea of the ability to shape your opponent's deployment seems to have utility in prevent that first-turn heroic shooting gallery.

I think what people are hung up on are the Tervigon, which are pretty nifty, but remember that we got on pretty well without them in the last two editions.

Sure they can pump out Termagants, but consider that you can nearly max out a brood of Termagants or Hormagaunts (26 or so) for the cost of a single Tervigon.

Remember also that people will have all those anti-tank weapons sitting around that they won't be using on vehicles, that have their greatest utility in killing your Monstrous Creatures.

I mean I'm sitting here at work thinking of my army at home and starting to regret having sold off all those Hormagaunts. At least they sell them in specific boxes these days.

And the early numbers showed even smallish units of Hormagaunts murdering units of Terminators and other such units.

Nurglitch wrote:Mellon:

How do you get 290 points? If each Warrior is 45pts, and there's three Warriors in two Broods, then it should come out to 270 points.

The Warriors should be 35pts each, with Rending Claws replacing Devourers for free, and +5pts for Adrenal Glands. So 105pts per squad, for 210 points in total on Troops.

That still puts the list at 100pts over 2000. So lose the Adrenal Glands from the Warriors and four Spore Mines (1 from the first two, 2 from the third).

Yes, yes indeed you are right. Two years of math at university, and I fail at multiplication. *facepalms myself* Thanks for correcting me.

On the subject of tournament competitive codex. I believe that GW doesn't even try to do that. It looks like they feel that the hardcore tournament players are such a small part of their customer base that proper cut-throat-playtesting is not worth the time and money that it costs. And I assume they believe that public playtesting of their rules would lessen the shock and awe effect of releasing a new codex, so lead to lower sales. It might also be that they feel it is alright if a very expensive (in $) army will perform better than a cheaper one, much like CCGs and CMGs work. They might very well be right on all accounts. Bad game design still makes me a sad panda :-(

Mellon wrote:On the subject of tournament competitive codex. I believe that GW doesn't even try to do that. It looks like they feel that the hardcore tournament players are such a small part of their customer base that proper cut-throat-playtesting is not worth the time and money that it costs. And I assume they believe that public playtesting of their rules would lessen the shock and awe effect of releasing a new codex, so lead to lower sales. It might also be that they feel it is alright if a very expensive (in $) army will perform better than a cheaper one, much like CCGs and CMGs work. They might very well be right on all accounts. Bad game design still makes me a sad panda :-(

you know... they are getting much better at it... When an author has access to the design crutch known as the meltagun, they really can't break it. When armies don't have access to it, then they have to work a bit harder. I know its not easy, but look at these two catagories of armies and notice what each of them have...

THE GOOD
space wolves
imperial guard
space marines

THE LESS GOOD
orks
demons
tyranids


if you didn't notice, those are the last 6 books to come out. At first glance it may seem like dedicated transports might be the common theme, but thats not true, both nids and orks have them. The only pure difference is the lack of meltaguns in multiple FOC slots.

It doesn't help that in the first three armies, you can build for a BLISTERING turn 1 shooting phase, but if the other guys could answer that back with definitive "go to sleep" style tank kill, then we'd have a game. But they can't. they peck at armor, and the top three armies don't peck they smash.

I have no question that blood angels will be just fine in 5th edition. I've already seen the perdition pistols and meltaguns in every slot. Does it really matter who is holding it?

sirisaacnuton wrote:"hope I get lucky with Daemonic Assault (and hope Kairos doesn't take 1 wound and decide to leave town)" on my Daemons.

1 Weaken Resolve'll toss Kairos out of the game so fast it's sickening

And if your opponent has an allied Psycannon/Mystics Inquisitor...

Nurglitch wrote:Think about it, land enough from orbit in the enemy deployment zone prior to deployment and they're going to have to deploy where you want them (more or less...) rather than where-ever is most convenient.

You could seed them in areas where a tank could go hull down, or where an artillery unit could fire at you with impunity. Just the idea of the ability to shape your opponent's deployment seems to have utility in prevent that first-turn heroic shooting gallery.

The problem is getting "enough" of them. You only get 3 slots. As written, should you try to land them in difficult terrain (or if they scatter there), your odds are excellent of losing them all to the landing (one explodes, and takes his friends out, too). (And then, the first time they move, you likely lose them all to bumping off of each other. Nice rules.)

So, you can inconvenience someone in a Pitched Battle deployment, but it's meaningless in DoW, and maybe useful in Spearhead (depends largely on the terrain - if your opponent can park in the back corner and shoot across the table, then it would be useful to force him forward a bit).

The major value of the Tervigon? It can create units after turn 1, replenishing your numbers when you need them.

Shep wrote:
clever things

Interesting analysis. I think you are right. Meltaguns are somewhat challenging because they are short range, but having them widely available makes an assault style army possible to play. The tyranids only hope would be that the BAs make huge tank gunlines less popular.

Mellon wrote:Interesting analysis. I think you are right. Meltaguns are somewhat challenging because they are short range, but having them widely available makes an assault style army possible to play. The tyranids only hope would be that the BAs make huge tank gunlines less popular.

I'm going to try one more list.... My gaming group has helped me work this one out. There is potential for a win here against MaxOD or IG. It feels very "demony". Its not my favorite playstyle and i feel like a was swindled into nids... but, here goes...

tyranid prime boneswords
3x zoanthropes in pod
3x zoanthropes in pod
doom of malantai in a pod (until GW FAQ nerfs the INAT interpretation)
3x warriors venom cannon in pod
3x warriors venom cannon in pod
3x warriors venom cannon in pod
3x warriors venom cannon in pod
carnifex with dual devourers in pod
carnifex with dual devourers in pod
carnifex with dual devourers in pod

Simple concept. Hope to get 5 pods on turn 2, hope only two of those 5 are warrior pods.... crash flank, lock it down, start trying to roll it.

I'll batrep it if i can get some free time tomorrow night or friday.

Does your group not use mystics? If not and they bunch up their tanks then...Mawloc?

But I do like the whole anti-armour thing you have going. However, do you really need carnifexes with devourers with all those warriors w/ VC's AND zoanthropes. I think perhaps 3 trygons might be a better bet. They are more survivable than carnifexes, and offer up 1 less KP. If you make them primes they also get more shots and their gun has AP5 meaning you can blow up transports.

Interesting build. It sure does look scary on paper. Good luck. I hope you find the time to write a batrep.

I hear you Shep. I would be lieing if I didn't feel slightly the same way.

I am going to try and do a battle report against CaptKaruthors IG list.

It will be this list:

HQ:

Command squad w/ 2 meltas, AC
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

TROOPS:

PCS w/ 2 meltas, Flamer
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

10 man squad w/ PG, LC
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

10 man squad w/ PG, LC, PW, commissar with PW
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

10 man vet squad with 3 meltas
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

6 man special weapons team w/ 2 meltas, flamer

ELITES:

6 man PBS
Mounted in chimmy w/ HF

HEAVY SUPPORT:

2 Hydras

Manticore w/ HF

Eradicator w/ Hull HF, 2 plasmacannons

FAST ATTACK:

Vendetta

Vendetta

Banewolf w/ HF



Versus this list:

-HQ-

Hive Tyrant w/ Lashwhip-Bonesword, Scything Talons, Life Leech, Paroxym, Hive Commander, Ancient Enemy, Armored Shell = 260

2 Tyrant Guard = 120

-Elites-

3 Hive Guard = 150

2 Zoenthropes w/ Pod = 160

Deathleaper = 140

-Troops-

20 Termagaunts = 100

Tervigon w/ Adrenal Glands. Toxin Sacs, Cluister Spines, Catalyst = 195

9 Genestealers = 126

9 Genestealers = 126

-Heavy Support-

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, MC Devourers in Pod = 235

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, MC Devourers in Pod = 235

Total = 1847

Using Primer Scenario, if CK is willing to do a Batrep.

Shep wrote:
Lets all pray that librarian furioso dreads start just shredding mech gunlines with impunity using shockwave and that the storm harbingers armor 13 starts making the autocannon and missile launcher relics of the old days.... even owning thousands of dollars of IG, I am begging someone at GW to wreck my gunline list with a popular codex, one that isn't just another gunline. If we can just get IG and space marines/wolves to actually spend a reasonable amount of points for effective shooting, rather than 10 point autocannons/MLs then maybe that can open up some breathing room for a ground and pound nid army.

I'm pretty sure its going that way, or at least will accelerate in that direction if allying INQ Mystics/ good phood is removed with their new book. That would be the proverbial nail in the coffin for gunline guard keeping up with Shockwave.

Oh and spirit leech INAT didn't help much either....

Shep wrote:Lets all pray that librarian furioso dreads start just shredding mech gunlines with impunity using shockwave and that the storm harbingers armor 13 starts making the autocannon and missile launcher relics of the old days.... even owning thousands of dollars of IG, I am begging someone at GW to wreck my gunline list with a popular codex, one that isn't just another gunline. If we can just get IG and space marines/wolves to actually spend a reasonable amount of points for effective shooting, rather than 10 point autocannons/MLs then maybe that can open up some breathing room for a ground and pound nid army.

Until then, see you in planetstrike...

Since semi-mech gunlines are better, that might not be quite what you're looking for. Besides, autocannons are pretty bad against the 'Nids, unless you bring Harpies or have Hive Guard out of cover for some reason.

I think viable heavy venom cannons will remain atop the Tyranid wish list for quite some time, even if BA are ironically more of a metagame changer than Tyranids ended up being.

Then again, we could get 6th ed. in 2012...the edition in which they attempt to tweak mech but instead give it too much of a nerf.

I'm ready to batrep this when you are.

Mahu wrote:I hear you Shep. I would be lieing if I didn't feel slightly the same way.

I am going to try and do a battle report against CaptKaruthors IG list.

It will be this list:

HQ:

Command squad w/ 2 meltas, AC
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

TROOPS:

PCS w/ 2 meltas, Flamer
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

10 man squad w/ PG, LC
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

10 man squad w/ PG, LC, PW, commissar with PW
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

10 man vet squad with 3 meltas
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

6 man special weapons team w/ 2 meltas, flamer

ELITES:

6 man PBS
Mounted in chimmy w/ HF

HEAVY SUPPORT:

2 Hydras

Manticore w/ HF

Eradicator w/ Hull HF, 2 plasmacannons

FAST ATTACK:

Vendetta

Vendetta

Banewolf w/ HF



Versus this list:

-HQ-

Hive Tyrant w/ Lashwhip-Bonesword, Scything Talons, Life Leech, Paroxym, Hive Commander, Ancient Enemy, Armored Shell = 260

2 Tyrant Guard = 120

-Elites-

3 Hive Guard = 150

2 Zoenthropes w/ Pod = 160

Deathleaper = 140

-Troops-

20 Termagaunts = 100

Tervigon w/ Adrenal Glands. Toxin Sacs, Cluister Spines, Catalyst = 195

9 Genestealers = 126

9 Genestealers = 126

-Heavy Support-

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, MC Devourers in Pod = 235

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, MC Devourers in Pod = 235

Total = 1847

Using Primer Scenario, if CK is willing to do a Batrep.

gorgon wrote:I think viable heavy venom cannons will remain atop the Tyranid wish list for quite some time, even if BA are ironically more of a metagame changer than Tyranids ended up being.

Then again, we could get 6th ed. in 2012...the edition in which they attempt to tweak mech but instead give it too much of a nerf.

Would it already be the end of the world by2012, what's the point to play wargame then?

Fetterkey wrote:Since semi-mech gunlines are better, that might not be quite what you're looking for. Besides, autocannons are pretty bad against the 'Nids, unless you bring Harpies or have Hive Guard out of cover for some reason.

Autocannons have been wrecking my hive guard, especially when under 'fire on my target' orders. Just because they are getting a cover save, doesn't mean that 39 autocannon hits per turn at 2k points doesn't just put nine hive guard back in the case before they've had a chance to fire.

And as to the semi-mech thing... I agree, my space wolves gunlines have foot long fang units and my IG armies have HWS. But they aren't the problem. Nids COULD throw stranglethorn cannons at those units while moving forward, or outflank/infiltrate some genestealers to threaten them. What is shutting down my nids is the fact that they have one slot with ranged anti-armor, and one slot with 265 point combination ranged/CC. Could I get a meltagun on my podding warriors? How about something in fast attack that isn't a single -1 on damage table lascannon for 170 points? Until I can get 'real' fire support spread over at least three different FOC slots... then this army is an aggro deep striker army unless you just want to give up games against any gunline.


As far as what would make a ground and pound nid army work, they just need more long range (at least 36" assault) consistent tank kill.

Robin chickened out on the venom cannon, its really sad that I'd actually prefer the two shot strength 10 glancing hit only gun that we used to have. Give me 3 of those in heavy, three in fast attack and a couple units of hive guard and I'll deploy across from a gunline... until then, I'll just reserve and pod in. HVC should have just straight up been two strength 9 shots with no -1. Regular VCs should have been autocannons. If you think that would make nids a gunline, then you haven't seen what some of these space wolf and IG armies can do.

Autocannons have been wrecking my hive guard, especially when under 'fire on my target' orders. Just because they are getting a cover save, doesn't mean that 39 autocannon hits per turn at 2k points doesn't just put nine hive guard back in the case before they've had a chance to fire.

Why are you taking cover saves when they have a 3+ save? How is Fire on my Target hurting you at that point?

CaptKaruthors wrote:

Autocannons have been wrecking my hive guard, especially when under 'fire on my target' orders. Just because they are getting a cover save, doesn't mean that 39 autocannon hits per turn at 2k points doesn't just put nine hive guard back in the case before they've had a chance to fire.

Why are you taking cover saves when they have a 3+ save? How is Fire on my Target hurting you at that point?

Hive Guard are 4+ saves, not 3+. Each twin-linked BS3 autocannon averages about 1/2 of a wound on a Hive Guard in cover; each autocannon HWS under Fire on my Target will often kill a HG.

Ah. I was told they were a 3+. Live an learn I guess.

That's my mistake, I may have confused the stat line of Hive Guard and Tyrant Guard. It would help if I read the codex, but I wonder how I could have gotten the two mixed up.

Shep wrote:Robin chickened out on the venom cannon, its really sad that I'd actually prefer the two shot strength 10 glancing hit only gun that we used to have. Give me 3 of those in heavy, three in fast attack and a couple units of hive guard and I'll deploy across from a gunline... until then, I'll just reserve and pod in. HVC should have just straight up been two strength 9 shots with no -1. Regular VCs should have been autocannons. If you think that would make nids a gunline, then you haven't seen what some of these space wolf and IG armies can do.

Agreed. Although, honestly, they should have just given up on clinging to the old idea that the VC is not good at destroying non-OT vehicles. After all, take the last codex's VC on a Fex, get rid of the rule about glances, and you have a Rupture Cannon. So obviously there's nothing inherently wrong with having a 2 shot S10 AP4 long range gun with no negative modifiers on vehicles, it just can't be the VC specifically. Go figure.

The Rupture Cannon is what the Heavy VC should be, and it should be available on both the C-fex and T-fex. The only difference should be that the T-fex is like the old souped-up godfex with the uber stat line, and the C-fex is the smaller version. But both should be able to load up on the HVC (by which I mean Rupture Cannon), Devourers, etc.

For that matter, about every Bio-Titan is covered in guns with a ridiculous number of S10 AP3 shots. The T-fex could have had a smaller version of this gun. A Biocannon with 4 S10 AP3 shots on a T-fex would go a long way toward making it worth its points. And honestly, I don't think it would make it broken or OP even at the current point value. It just wouldn't be so overpriced. The only reason the T-fex could even be remotely considered for a competitive build is just that there aren't any good alternatives.

I still think it's possible the HVC was a multi-blast weapon in earlier drafts. Fits the 2nd ed fluff/profile better -- a running theme in 40k these days -- and would have hit more reliably, although I also agree 100% the penetration penalty is a bad legacy issue. It's very curious that the weapon would go to a blast like the 2nd ed version but lose the multiple shots that it's always had, whether blasts or regular shooting. I guess one theory is that they were creating "design room" for the Tfex and the rupture cannon, but that doesn't make a ton of sense given that they don't have a Tfex kit to push.

It's frustrating. Everything is lined up for HVC Carnifexes to provide solid antitank support from the HS slots...except that the weapon itself isn't any good. And shouldn't look good to anyone who's played the game even a little. Huge miss by Cruddace there.

What if at the end GW FAQ says Hive commander gives +1 to reserve roll even when HT is in reserve , will that make a difference to fate of this codex?

I think it would improve the chances of an all reserve Tyranid list working quite well.

Something else to mention is that Heavy Venom Cannons don't suffer from their -1 to Damage rolls when directed at open-topped vehicles. Doesn't make it any better against a Leman Russ or Land Raider, but that gives it something against Battlewagons, skimmers, and so on.

ED209 wrote:What if at the end GW FAQ says Hive commander gives +1 to reserve roll even when HT is in reserve , will that make a difference to fate of this codex?

Not only would it greatly power up the reserve game of tyranids, but it would set a precedent that would force INAT to retro-actively reverse the astropath off-table ruling...

This would buff up the all-air-cav IG list, which would inject one more 'non-gunline' list into the metagame. One more list that a pure gunline like MaxOD or IG wouldn't enjoy facing.

Granted the IG gunline could use that same astropath to reserve out. But it isn't designed to function well from reserve. With tons of hydras and HWS, and infantry squads with heavy weapons in chimeras, its firepower is greatly diminished.

Any time you buff full off-table reserves... you hurt armies that have a devastating "top of turn one" volley.

Right now, its those armies that are really winning our 'full-flex' games in my club.

Ok then, that's another worm can. now I think the major problem with this codex is in the root, which can not be repaired by a FAQ, however I can live with a non competitive codex, no one will say nids are cheesy any more.

Played another game against IG yesterday, it was pretty rough. I was running:

Swarmlord
2 Tyrant Guard with Lashwhips
3 Hive Guard
3 Hive Guard
3 Zoanthropes
3 Warriors, Boneswords, Poison, FC, Rending Claws
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
Tervigon, Poison, FC, Catalyst, Cluster Spines
Carnifex, 2x Devourers
Carnifex, 2x Devourers
Carnifex, 2x Devourers

I was up against a somewhat non-standard IG list. Had some typical units, but was lacking in a lot of the long-ranged AT of standard builds. It was (roughly):

CCS with Creed, Bodyguard, Company Standard
Psyker Battle Squad (9) in Chimera
PCS with Commissar and a Priest, with fighty dudes (I think) in Chimera
2 Platoon Squads with Grenade Launcher
HWS with 2 Missile Launchers, 1 Autocannon
Veteran Squad with 3 Flamers, Demolitions
Veteran Squad with 3 Plasma Guns, Plasma pistol on Sarge, Grenadiers
Veteran Squad with 3 Meltaguns, Plasma pistol on Sarge, Grenadiers
Veteran Squad with 2 Plasma, 1 Melta, Plasma pistol on Sarge, Grenadiers
Veteran Squad with Sgt. Bastonne, 3 Sniper Rifles, Lascannon Team, Cammo Cloaks
(note that all the Vet squads were on foot, something I'm not used to seeing much)
Banewolf (I think...the one with the Chem cannon)
LRBT, no frills
Medusa
Manticore

Well, multiple S8+ pie plates, so that's trouble, but on the other hand, very little long-range anti-MC guns (1 LC, 1 AC, 2 ML, 3 Sniper Rifles). It could be much worse. A big goal will be to burn down the plasma gun squads with Dakkafexes before they can do ridiculous damage.

I won't go through a play-by-play, but the following occurred:

Mission is Capture and Control, Pitched Battle.

He won the roll to go first. Ouch.

Zoeys died at top of 1. Couple to failed saves against 8+, last to a pair of random failed saves against other wounds.

The Tervigon couldn't roll for crap turn 1 and took 4 wounds. After that he kept up Catalyst on himself, which protected himself from taking any more wounds from the IG, but a Perils on turn 2 and turn 4 finished him off. Weak.

The Swarmlord massively butchered a random Platoon unit then got gunned down by tons of Plasma and Melta. He at least managed to hang on while he had a Guard in cover (so he could take cover saves, at least according to the INAT FAQ). Once the Guard bit it he died hard though. Not quite worth the 410 points for him and his retinue.

The Hive Guard brutalized pretty much everything they shot at. Generally, so did the Dakkafexes. Very happy with the performance of both of them. Hive Guard were basically the MVPs.

The Warriors got pulped by a Battlecannon when they failed 2 cover saves (one had previously failed a cover save against a Manticore missile). This happened around the same time the Tervigon killed itself, leaving me with no Synapse. The Warriors trying to stay in cover meant they never got close enough to do anything. They accomplished nothing this game. Probably should have left the Devourers on them, just gave them Claws for helping to pop vehicles.

Once I lost the Synapse, the IB tests killed me. On a very clutch turn (bottom of 5) when I had an opportunity to kill off the only Troop unit left by his objective, one Fex failed its test and had to charge the remnants of the PBS (which accomplished nothing for trying to win) and a unit of Hive Guard had to shoot at Bastonne's unit sitting there with 3+ cover, managing to kill a dude. If the game had ended on 5 it would have been a draw (or a win for me if I had enough control of my army to shoot down a unit of Guardsmen out of cover). On 6 another Hive Guard unit went wild and had to shoot uselessly at a LRBT instead of the Troops. He just managed (by exactly enough wounds with the last possible shot) to kill the last of my Termagants going to ground by my objective. Game ended on 6, win for the IG.

In the end, it was somewhat of a close game, but it was an uphill struggle for Nids the entire game. I had huge chunks of my army that were basically just fire magnets, and once my Synapse was all dead I just lost control of my army, and a game that could have still been a win turned into barely hanging on against being tabled. And that was against a Guard army that was not particularly meched up, had no Vendettas, and was generally lean on long-range heavy weapons. The player fully admitted that his army was primarily geared for close-range fighting against Marines, because that's all he ever seemed to play against.

I've got some ideas to help a few things, and a little more theorizing to do, but in the end I just can't get past the Guard. The fact that they're so vicious at wrecking the Synapse (which the army is more reliant on than it used to be, now that things like Fexes will go out of control) is an extra nail I hadn't even considered thus far.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

gorgon wrote:It's frustrating. Everything is lined up for HVC Carnifexes to provide solid antitank support from the HS slots...except that the weapon itself isn't any good. And shouldn't look good to anyone who's played the game even a little. Huge miss by Cruddace there.

Agreed. Also frustrating is the complete lack of variety that is present throughout the Guard. Want an artillery? We've got your choice of Basilisk, Medusa, Colossus, Griffon, Medusa with BB shells, or a mixture. Russes? We've got about 8 different variants, plus the options for different sponsons and front weapon. Plus the Manticore. Plus the Hydra. Plus the Deathstrike Missile (ha!). The Nid codex has so few options in so many slots. Heavy weapon? Well there's the mediocre HVC and the rupture cannon on the T-fex. Anything else and you better hope your target is within 24" (or closer). And the myriad of the other weapons are all so similar it almost doesn't make sense they're distinct weapons. The same T-fex has two other unique weapons, but beyond that, all the weapons look so similar. Why would I need distinct weapons for S6 AP- 6 shots, S5 AP5 6 Shots, a different S6 AP- 6 Shots, S6 AP- 2 shots, S5 AP5 3 shots, and S5 AP4 4 shots? Make some of these guns unique, do something special. And the range issue is brutal across the board...god forbid someone is farther than 18" away. Then I have a S5 AP- large blast, S4 AP5 large, S6 AP5 large, S6 AP4 small, and S4 AP4 large. Why so many different weapons that are so close to doing the same thing? Why not one that ignores cover (the Biovore's perhaps), one that causes pinning, one that makes them move as if in difficult terrain, get rid of a couple, and eliminate some redundancy?

There are just too many little things in the book that don't feel like anyone gave it half a minute's thought. The big problem is that when trying to build an army out of that book, despite all the options, I just don't really feel like I actually have all that many choices.

sirisaacnuton wrote:stuff

do you think if you drop the 3 Dakkafex and Warriors, add on 2 Trygon, a Tervigon, one more Tyrant Guard will make things different?

Lets face it the new Dex sucks - Ive got 12000 points of freshly painted bugs and Im disgusted with the new Dex. Ive stopped buying bugs and will continue to go with my Gunline Mech Spammed IG and Ultras until I get inspired again. The author to the new Bug Dex needs to go find something else to do. His or her game theory sucks.

I've tried them with various things in place of the Dakkafexes. I just keep coming back to them because they're fairly strong. Tested 2 Trygon 1 Mawloc in their place, and had my on-table portion wrecked while waiting for them to show (guys with +1 to reserves got shot down before it came into play). Also tested with a pair of T-fexes, I've said plenty about my opinions of their shortcomings.

As far as the Warriors vs. Tervigon issue...I really want 2 Tervigons. But I need to be able to handle some of the hard-ass fighty units. The Warriors and/or Swarmlord are pretty potent against Nobz and TWC. Massed Devourer spam and piles of Poison+FC Termagants are strong for countering Terminators when they get out of the LR. Not much stands up to Bloodcrushers, I mostly just hope enough forced saves will whittle them down (but I roll over and die to 24 Bloodcrushers with Kairos no matter what, I think).

So I keep coming around to wanting one of the following:
2 Tervigons...strong for objectives, but hardly any offense

Swarmlord...brutal against some things, but really needs 2 or 3 Guard and is just a huge pile of points

Kitted out Warriors with Tyranid Prime...also brutal against some things, but T4 no EW just isn't cutting it

I'm almost wondering about trying to answer my issues with hard units by having giant piles of Termagants or Hormagaunts (Poison+FC of course). Big piles of Termagants backed by Tervigons could give me an edge in some places, and attaching something like a Prime to one big unit could help protect some Synapse from long-range fire. I just feel like I'll be lacking too much in hitting power. Maybe something like this:

2 Tervigons (both Troops)
2x 15-20 Termagant units
15-20 Hormagaunts (Poison/FC)
Tyranid Prime with something for the HQ
2x 3 Hive Guard
3 Zoanthropes (or an additional 3 Hive Guard)
Trygon
Trygon Alpha
Mawloc

Not sure about the points there, but I just wonder how that would stack up. It seems like it could be good, I just worry about putting too much reliance on T3 6+ critters (even if they have FNP).

I've contemplated a Mawloc or Deathleaper to have something that can try to pop up and contest a late objective if necessary. Problem with the Mawloc is not being able to protect it early on, plus potential issues with scattering away from the objective. The Deathleaper can just be kept far enough back that it can't be shot (or can keep appearing and disappearing), then appear right on an objective. However, big issue there is 140 points not doing much of anything for most of the game, plus the loss of an Elite slot. (He would basically just replace an entire 3-man unit of Hive Guard, something that seems like it will almost always out-perform him.)

I'm going to try to give one more shot to an all-out in-your-face blitz. Trygons and/or Mawlocs, Ravenors, Mycetic Spores, maybe Ymgarl Stealers, maybe some Gargoyles or Hormagaunts. It seems strong against some stuff, and takes away the prospect of getting entirely shot down by Guard in the first couple turns. But I don't know if it's strong enough. Particulary, I don't know if it can do enough in to win a game that may end after turn 5, if my stuff shows up turn 2 and doesn't start doing much until turn 3. But I'll give it another shot.

So, nobody has said it, and I doubt anyone really cares, but the new Tyranid codex is a whole lot more fun to play against than the IG one, win or lose.

Win or lose huh I wont argue the point with you in that regard.

Personally I think its pathetic that Bugs ranged AT is terrible, their CC options for anti-tank arent much better due to the nerfing of rending AND their CC power against infantry is also nerfed because they dont get any form of Frag Grenade unless they're a Carnifex - which is initiative 1 anyway (face slap).

The redeeming qualities of the dex Ive found are:

Tyranid Prime,
Toxin Sac Genestealers,
Adrenal Warriors with Claws,
Gargoyles with adrenal glands

Biggest dissapointments - no frag grenades, Rupture Cannon not being Heavy 3, Ravenors not being able to Adrenal or toxin sacs, Lictor still not fixed, All MC's about 10% too much points wise.

There might be a competitive list in there somewhere that has game against IG or space marines

sirisaacnuton wrote:mini-batrep

Ok, no offense to the IG player that you played against, but his list was untuned, and from the pretty extensive testing I've been doing with nids in my group, your nid list was VERY tuned. I should qualify that by saying that it is tuned for a ground pounder list. This batrep has pretty much cemented my opinion that in this day and age, the only armies that can deploy on table are ridiculous gunlines, or land raider based assault speartips. Thanks for sharing that game result. I definitely believe in dakkafexes, and hive guard are one of the most points efficient shooters around. It's unfortunate that we don't have winged versions in fast attack . hell I'd even take units of 1-5 so i can field 15.

kaiservonhugal wrote:Lets face it the new Dex sucks - Ive got 12000 points of freshly painted bugs and Im disgusted with the new Dex. Ive stopped buying bugs and will continue to go with my Gunline Mech Spammed IG and Ultras until I get inspired again. The author to the new Bug Dex needs to go find something else to do. His or her game theory sucks.

Well, that author happened to be the one that wrote the IG dex as well, he just couldn't beat his first book with his second one. Call it a sophmore slump.

Also, I have actually had success with the all spore army. If you are like me that doesn't make it all better, because if I wanted to play a demon-like army, I'd just play demons... but in my testing I have found that a 10 drop pod dakkafex/zoanthrope/shooty warrior army can wreck 2 armor 12 vehicles and shake 2 more armor 12 vehicles on turn 2. If your scatters weren't wacky, and you purposely crashed a flank and built a decent wall of spore pods, you can start rolling the flank and take over a table half. That can win you annihilation games, and can win you seize ground games, if you got to place the objectives the way you wanted.

It really sucks that its the only list archetype I have found that can compete at the highest level of cut-throat competition, but if you lined up that spore pod list against my gunline IG army at a tourney, i would DEFINITELY need to put my game face on. Its actually a lot like the space wolf list that I lost a crucial game 4 match against in my last GT. Only it's actually better than that. So I know for a fact it can take down maxOD or IG.

So if you have the zoanthropes and the dakkafexes like I bet you do, then get a dozen warriors knocked together and buy some mega-bloks. The silver lining for nids, is that they have so many fun non-tourney units for expansion missions, that a guy like you with a big collection can have a lot of fun. For instance, I can't really think of a more overpowered pairing of units for planetstrike attackers than raveners and trygons. Defending a planestrike would be all kinds of devastating with hive guard in reserve, showing up from all sides of the table and popping everything armored with side and rear shots or just hanging out in bastions pumping out devastating salvoes. Tervigons powering up massive termagant tarpits would lock the game down and present a really fun challenge for people to try and get around them to score your objectives. A full lictor and genestealer list would just wreck shop big time in a cities of death mission, and I can't wait to see the details of the three tyranid specific missions in the battle missions book.

And I'm still holding out hope for some of these "johnny's" here on dakka to find something i didn't and post their results. A note to any "johnny". Before posting the list, please test it against one or more of these gunlines.

CCS 4x melta chimera
CCS 4x melta chimera
PCS 4x flamer chimera
infantry squad autocannon flamer chimera
infantry squad autocannon flamer chimera
HWS 3x autocannon
HWS 3x autocannon
HWS 3x autocannon
HWS 3x autocannon
veteran squad autocannon 3x melta chimera
vendetta with heavy bolters
vendetta with heavy bolters
vendetta with heavy bolters
2x hydras
2x hydras
2x hydras

or

rune priest with living lightning and jaws and chooser of the slain
3x wolf guard 3x combi-meltas razorback with lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
3x wolf guard 3x combi-meltas razorback with lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
3x wolf guard 3x combi-meltas razorback with lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
5x grey hunters razorback with lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
5x grey hunters razorback with lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
5x grey hunters razorback with lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
5x grey hunters razorback with lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
5x grey hunters razorback with lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
land speeder typhoon
land speeder typhoon
land speeder typhoon
6x long fangs 5x missiles
6x long fangs 5x missiles
6x long fangs 5x missiles

or

master of the forge with conversion beamer
dreadnought with two twin-linked autocannons
dreadnought with two twin-linked autocannons
dreadnought with two twin-linked autocannons
10x tactical squad with missile launcher and flamer razorback with lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
10x tactical squad with missile launcher and flamer razorback with lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
10x tactical squad with missile launcher and flamer razorback with lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
10x tactical squad with missile launcher and flamer razorback with lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
land speeder typhoon
land speeder typhoon
land speeder typhoon
predator with heavy bolter sponsons
predator with heavy bolter sponsons
predator with heavy bolter sponsons

note: other than the IG list, credit needs to go to Stelek for the majority of the list design concepts in the second two gunlines. Also, I'll note that these aren't lists I'd ever take to a tourney, as they are boring, predictable, undynamic and can and will make grown men cry. What they do for sure is just CRUSH armies that can't repel firepower, or can't deep strike in front of them.

While boring and unpredictable I hesitate to call them undynamic. They can all respond fairly well to changes on the battlefield due to all the transport options.

Shep wrote:

sirisaacnuton wrote:mini-batrep

Ok, no offense to the IG player that you played against, but his list was untuned, and from the pretty extensive testing I've been doing with nids in my group, your nid list was VERY tuned. I should qualify that by saying that it is tuned for a ground pounder list. This batrep has pretty much cemented my opinion that in this day and age, the only armies that can deploy on table are ridiculous gunlines, or land raider based assault speartips. Thanks for sharing that game result. I definitely believe in dakkafexes, and hive guard are one of the most points efficient shooters around. It's unfortunate that we don't have winged versions in fast attack . hell I'd even take units of 1-5 so i can field 15.

I agree. I felt like it was definitely the best I could hope for from an IG list...certainly not as stacked against Nids as other Guard I've seen...and I still lost and almost got tabled. Like I said, it was close, and a couple rolls going differently could have squeaked out a win, but it still doesn't bode well for the Nids when a match-up like that still goes to IG.

I do love the Hive Guard even more after this game. It was the first time I've fired them at infantry...they can certainly make a unit disappear when wearing 4+ or worse. Very nasty against guys who are standing behind other guys for cover. Makes me wish they could go like Necron Destroyers and be 1-5 per slot. I'd totally play them.

Shep wrote:
Also, I have actually had success with the all spore army. If you are like me that doesn't make it all better, because if I wanted to play a demon-like army, I'd just play demons... but in my testing I have found that a 10 drop pod dakkafex/zoanthrope/shooty warrior army can wreck 2 armor 12 vehicles and shake 2 more armor 12 vehicles on turn 2. If your scatters weren't wacky, and you purposely crashed a flank and built a decent wall of spore pods, you can start rolling the flank and take over a table half. That can win you annihilation games, and can win you seize ground games, if you got to place the objectives the way you wanted.

I have to agree with you here. I already have a Daemon army, one of the things I was most looking forward to with the Nids was an army I can always deploy and start with the entire thing reliably.

What kind of shooty warriors are we talking about? I've put guns on them to go with the Bonesword/Poison/FC so they have a threat besides combat, but haven't tested enough to make a case either way. Devourer spam or pay the points to up to Deathspitters? Also, 1 VC or BS? I tried one VC for a bit, as one extra thing that could maybe pop a Rhino/Razorback/Trukk/Chimera (in side armor), but was never overly impressed with it. Haven't played with the BS.

One thing I keep wanting to try is Raveners. Anyone messed with these? Every time I want to test them, I end up wanting to give them Poison and FC, and being disappointed they can't take it, then being disgusted by the fact that if any unit in the entire codex should be able to take Adrenal and Toxin it's the Raveners, and they can't. Then I just end up going with something else instead. But it seems like even without Adrenal/Toxin they could still be something fairly decent to just start on the table, thanks to their huge threat range. But are they too fragile for their points? Or do they even hit hard enough for their points?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kaiservonhugal wrote:Personally I think its pathetic that Bugs ranged AT is terrible, their CC options for anti-tank arent much better due to the nerfing of rending AND their CC power against infantry is also nerfed because they dont get any form of Frag Grenade unless they're a Carnifex - which is initiative 1 anyway (face slap).

The redeeming qualities of the dex Ive found are:

Tyranid Prime,
Toxin Sac Genestealers,
Adrenal Warriors with Claws,
Gargoyles with adrenal glands

There might be a competitive list in there somewhere that has game against IG or space marines

Those are all very strong. I would add dual Bonesword Warriors and Tervigons to the list, and definitely Hive Guard.

The problem is, almost none of those can do jack about a bunch of dude in dedicated transports shooting. Only Hiveguard can touch them at range, and if you can't break open the transports from range, then your Primes/Warriors/Gargs/Stealers get to run in, blow up dedicated transports, and then get gunned down. Stealers are bolter fodder, Gargs even more so, and Warriors are not overly hard to clean up, particularly if the squad whose ride you just wrecked has a PFist.

It was frustrating with my Daemons when I kept running into situations where I could outplay my opponent and generally have a stronger list, but would just lose to a pair of Landraiders. Well, it's much more frustrating when I lose to Chimeras and Razorbacks. And even more so losing to vehicles so far away and so shooty I can't even try to wreck them. Very lame.

Shep wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Since semi-mech gunlines are better, that might not be quite what you're looking for. Besides, autocannons are pretty bad against the 'Nids, unless you bring Harpies or have Hive Guard out of cover for some reason.

Autocannons have been wrecking my hive guard, especially when under 'fire on my target' orders. Just because they are getting a cover save, doesn't mean that 39 autocannon hits per turn at 2k points doesn't just put nine hive guard back in the case before they've had a chance to fire.

Ouch. Is it possible to hide them behind Tfexes? I don't know what your TFex conversions are like, but it seems like it might be possible to make one big enough that Hive Guard could grab total concealment and force the IG to burn all those autocannon shots on 2+ armor (and perhaps FNP) instead of 4+ cover with negative rerolls. As long as the TFexes don't bite it to AP1/2, it seems like you'd be able to tank a hell of a lot of firepower, especially with Regeneration-- if the opponent has enough las, though, they might be able to burn right through the TFex and get to the Hive Guard. This also depends on whether you go the Venomthrope route or not, of course. 3 Vendettas get almost enough hits and wounds to drop a TFex in one turn if you don't have cover (5.6 wounding hits on average, random other fire can probably make up the difference), so the Venomthropes might be important here-- of course, the TFex would have to screen them too, or the enemy just fires something over for ID goodness.

Overall, I've been skeptical of Hive Guard since the initial rumors didn't pan out, but they seem to be the only real way to get truly reliable shooting power out of the Elites slot-- Zoanthropes have to take Psychic tests (read: get shut down half the time by Wolves and almost half by psyhoods unless you burn a slot on Death Leaper), generally have to reserve and suicide-pod in, die very easily to CC, and are worse than meltaguns anyway.

Problem with the Venomthropes trying to protect stuff from IG is that I can't imagine T-fex tall enough to screen a Venomthrope from a Vendetta...things are so high up.

Give the Hive Guard a shot. They are one of the few things that really shine in there. Shame they're not 36" range, though that would get a lot of cheese calls. I just really wish they could drop pod. Not for a suicide strike, just for nestling themselves somewhere in/behind cover but in effective range of what needs shooting. Because with a 4+ they need cover, and then they get limited by how fast they can advance and where they can deploy effectively, and the 24" range starts keeping them away from juicy targets sometimes.

I want to try this at 2000 points:

2 Primes with Deathspitter and Swords
60 Genestealers with Adrenal Glands
60 Hormagaunts
9 Hive Guard


Typically the guants would screen and the stealers would deliver the kill cut - against AV14, I reverse it, sacrificing stealers and then letting the Gaunts chew up the insides.

The Primes escort the Guard and are centrally located in the Swarm.

kaiservonhugal wrote:I want to try this at 2000 points:

2 Primes with Deathspitter and Swords
60 Genestealers with Adrenal Glands
60 Hormagaunts
9 Hive Guard


Typically the guants would screen and the stealers would deliver the kill cut - against AV14, I reverse it, sacrificing stealers and then letting the Gaunts chew up the insides.

The Primes escort the Guard and are centrally located in the Swarm.

There is most likely a gunline "punisher" list that incorporates gargoyles and mass genestealers. The idea would be to set around 140 models down that can all declare charges against vehicles on turn 2. you deploy out of IG heavy flamer range, and then HOPEFULLY wreck or stun around 5-6 tanks on turn two. Gunlines take too many single shot weapons to realistically remove your models fast enough, so on paper, it works...

Unfortunately, we're looking for a tourney style list. And in time-limit games, taking a 140-180 model army that needs to declare multiple CCs per game is a bad way to go against a gunline. they can get their VPs early, shrug off your initial attempts at destruction, and play a 3-4 turn game for the win.

My solution to beating gunlines when playing club games or home games has been pretty simple. if you aren't tourney prepping, and warning me beforehand, don't bring that kinda list to a friendly game

I like your club method Shep

I went with Hormaguants over Gargoyles because they score.

Shep wrote:

kaiservonhugal wrote:I want to try this at 2000 points:

2 Primes with Deathspitter and Swords
60 Genestealers with Adrenal Glands
60 Hormagaunts
9 Hive Guard


Typically the guants would screen and the stealers would deliver the kill cut - against AV14, I reverse it, sacrificing stealers and then letting the Gaunts chew up the insides.

The Primes escort the Guard and are centrally located in the Swarm.

There is most likely a gunline "punisher" list that incorporates gargoyles and mass genestealers. The idea would be to set around 140 models down that can all declare charges against vehicles on turn 2. you deploy out of IG heavy flamer range, and then HOPEFULLY wreck or stun around 5-6 tanks on turn two. Gunlines take too many single shot weapons to realistically remove your models fast enough, so on paper, it works...

Unfortunately, we're looking for a tourney style list. And in time-limit games, taking a 140-180 model army that needs to declare multiple CCs per game is a bad way to go against a gunline. they can get their VPs early, shrug off your initial attempts at destruction, and play a 3-4 turn game for the win.

My solution to beating gunlines when playing club games or home games has been pretty simple. if you aren't tourney prepping, and warning me beforehand, don't bring that kinda list to a friendly game

It's the time constraints on tourney play that make it hard. I was going to suggest you try a 120 Glanded Hormie list, Shep (plus 3x pods of 2x Zoanthropes), but moving that would be annoying.

(Deployment can go easier; you need deployment trays for large armies. You can move off of them post-deployment, but you need to be able to put down 10-20 models at a time, already spaced out.)

Thats a good idea at least one of the movement phases will be accellerated that way

The SW and Marine lists look really tough, however here in the Chicagoland area we play 1850pts and less. On top of that we almost always have one mission where KP are primary victory points and those lists look like they would have trouble in those missions. A list that does very well in 2/3rds of the game is nice, but not a tourney winning army list.

Don't fool yourself into thinking that those IG lists give up KPs easily.

I just wonder how they can win a KP game against Jetseer's. They would seem to lose more KP's in 1 round of HtH then they could recover all game. I can't go to a tourney around here without 2-3 seer councils running around.

DarthDiggler wrote:I just wonder how they can win a KP game against Jetseer's. They would seem to lose more KP's in 1 round of HtH then they could recover all game. I can't go to a tourney around here without 2-3 seer councils running around.

Yeah foot orks and demons are also armies that partial mech gunlines will struggle to win annihilation missions against.

The gunlines i posted aren't even close to tourney unbeatable... What they are really good for is a testing tool...

if you design an army, and wonder if it will be a good one.... a great first step is to vassal it against one of those gunlines. If you get tabled by the end of turn 2, then you need to scrap it...

because what that means, is maybe against a choppier list you don't get tabled, but you aren't going to be playing for wins either...

My IG army has manticores, fleet officers and astropaths and many times they have PBS, because they are making metagame considerations. My space wolf armies have land raiders and lone wolf/wolf lord surprises hiding behind land raiders, my SM armies have THSS terminators. Those are the 'real' lists. Thats less firepower, but more chance to win a tourney. These gunlines just accurately demonstrate what kind of heat a 'foot' army has to eat before they can get across table.

Armies that don't plan to get that first shot in from a drop pod or deep striking, need to be able to eat insane amounts of shooting in tourney 40k. Without armor 14 transports, nids just can't do it. Unless I missed something. they need to vertically envelop, and if you don't believe me, run against one of those gunlines

Thanks for clearing that up. I would agree with your assessment. I also agree about Nids having to 'vertically envelope' their enemy. The Nid lists we are working on try to deep strike or outflank their core elements. It can be a hit or miss proposition, but that is still better than taking 1-2 rounds of shooting from those lists.

It does appear that in this strategy the Nid begin to play like a daemon army, which I know people were not looking forward to.

Yeah... I've been following this stuff here along with trying to come up with some ideas myself, and the more I think about it, Nids just can't deploy on the table and rush Mech armies ala 4th edition Nids. I really think their strength was supposed to be the deployment options/reserve games. However, a lot of stuff prevents that from working the way its supposed to: Hive Commander/Lictor's not working off the table, Trygon's ability being a letdown, no Spore Pod assault (which can be good and bad), etc. Had those been tuned slightly better, I think Nids would be a very smashmouth, in-your-face army that could break gunlines. As it is now, they either serve as target practice or come in too staggered to be a real threat.

Gornall wrote:Yeah... I've been following this stuff here along with trying to come up with some ideas myself, and the more I think about it, Nids just can't deploy on the table and rush Mech armies ala 4th edition Nids. I really think their strength was supposed to be the deployment options/reserve games. However, a lot of stuff prevents that from working the way its supposed to: Hive Commander/Lictor's not working off the table, Trygon's ability being a letdown, no Spore Pod assault (which can be good and bad), etc. Had those been tuned slightly better, I think Nids would be a very smashmouth, in-your-face army that could break gunlines. As it is now, they either serve as target practice or come in too staggered to be a real threat.

Or just cheaper big bugs, any decent MC will cost you as much as a land raider, and dies so much easier.

My solution in recent testing has been Swarmlord + Hive Tyrant for +2 reserve stacking, each with a tyrant guard, set up with a tervigon behind a 30 strong gant screen. The 2 different tyrants dont get shot up too badly thanks to limited wound allocation and cover saves. I have 6 hive guard and 3 zoans in a pod, along with 2x10 toxin stealers. This is 1850

So far, that is the maximum amount of pressure I can put on the enemy. The stealers will infiltrate, hopefully in cover, simply to be very convincing targets for gunlines on turn 1. My back line will likely all run turn 1, unless the hive guard are in range, just to get closer. Turn 2, I hope I still have the +2 to reserves, bring down the pod, and the elite units all start shooting. The MCs likely are running still, and the stealers, if alive, will be charging lead elements on turn 2. Turn 3, if my MC core is still at near full strength thanks to the sacrifice of the stealers and zoan pod, I should be lining up assaults.

In taking my current list to 2k points, I would either add another tervigon by breaking up the termagants, or another 10 stealers. Both add threat to the enemy that is present on turn 1, the stealers from turn 2 assaults and the tervigon from potential gant farming. Other than these two units, I cant think of anything that adds real turn 1 threat. Raveners with rending claws, or dakka drop fexes could be good turn 2 threats, Raveners must deploy behind gants for cover which can slow them down and drop dakka fexes arnt on the board, thus focus the enemies turn 1 attention to my other units.

All I know is that I am very, very thankful that we have one good FOC slot, the elite slot. Without the elite slot units I think the nid book would be worthless for tournies.

As an aside, did anyone notice that we simply traded t6 8 shot s6 elite dakka fexes for t6 6 shot s8 hive guard units? About the same points too, and hive guard in 5th are about as good as the dakkafex in 4th ed (when glances could kill!)

Its time for a time out!

You guys amaze me sometimes, you dont have to destroy 12 transports you dont have to fixate on anti-tank. All you have to do is claim more objectives at the end of the day or have more kill points. That means you place your objectives as close to theres as possible move your blob closer and closer, you cant take out t 6 6 wounds creatures with the same weapons to take out large swarms. Focus on surviving and controling large areas of the board with the swarm and claiming objectives.

DevianID wrote:My solution in recent testing has been Swarmlord + Hive Tyrant for +2 reserve stacking, each with a tyrant guard, set up with a tervigon behind a 30 strong gant screen. The 2 different tyrants dont get shot up too badly thanks to limited wound allocation and cover saves. I have 6 hive guard and 3 zoans in a pod, along with 2x10 toxin stealers. This is 1850

I kind have the same idea ,here is mine

HQ
Swarmlord +Tyrantguard 340pts

Elite
Hive Gurad X3 150pts

Hive Gurad X3 150pts

ZoanthropeX3 180pts

Troops
Genestealers+ToxinSacs X9 153pts

Genestealers+ToxinSacs X9 153pts

Genestealers+ToxinSacs X9 153pts

Genestealers+ToxinSacs X9 153pts

Genestealers+ToxinSacs X9 153pts

Fast
Gagoyles+ToxinSacs+Adrenal Glands
X20 160pts

total 1745pts

basicly everything doesnt shoot will reach the enemy by turn two, could drop one brood of genes for a Mawloc, if they drive flat out then they cant shoot back, and besides flamer everything jumps out vehicle will be eaten by genes.

I think that people will have to accept that tyranids need 140+ models to compete. Playing against them almost exclusively in the last 3 weeks has led me to believe that Tyranids key to success is to literally swamp you with so many models that it literally chokes your opponent's army from maneuvering. More often or not, my IG have to fight a breakout mission before I actually play the mission. Units that I think are great are somehow missing from lists I've been seeing on the internets and playing locally:

Gargoyles
Ripper Swarms
Raveners
Hormagaunts
Termagaunts with devourers

All of these units have the ability to drop on your doorstep and/or move quickly.

CaptKaruthors, I notice a distinct lack of Ymgarl genestealers in your post. Is that because you do see them a lot or because you don't think they fit? Apart from the Yealers, I agree completely with what you are saying. A lot of meta these days is about bringing enough ati tank, which is of course makes swarms stronger. Many lists cente around a deathstar unit, wich will become a bit hampered by not having a target that is clearly worth their points and risks being bogged down in dozens of fearless critters. I think the reason for the lack of smaller creatures in popular lists is because the tyranid community is still adjusting to the general nerf that MCs got, and big models with new rules tends to draw more attention than a slightly reworked 6p troop model.

On a related subject, it seems to me as if the tyranid codex has a lot more synergy effects between units than codexes usually have. Rules have wordings like all friendly units within 6" or have effects-greater-than-the-sum-of-the-parts-stacking like Aura of Despair + Shadow in the Warp. IF this is indeed a conscious design choice, I am all for it. I'd like to see more codexes go that way. It gives players more meaningful choices. However, I think those effects are a bit too cautiously applied for the tyranids.

Part of the problem with synergy in armies is that they tend to lock in patterns. Look what's happened around here: People notice the synergy between Tervigons and Termagants and then suddenly it's like these are "mandatory" units in an army. Or take the Lash of Submission/Obliterator combination as another synergy that crowded out all the other options in the codex.

Plus there's the factoring in of points-cost. If one unit doubles its effectiveness in the presence of another unit, then how do you balance that combination with other combinations so that players have the largest number of live options available.

Another part of it is explicit synergy vs implicit synergy. Units or models with rules that explicitly affect other units, like the Kustom Force Field, or Fortune, have explicit synergy. Implicit synergy is more to do with how the basic rules relate models to each other. Units with template weapons have a synergy with transport tanks because the tanks can Tank Shock enemy units into clumps for more hits from the templates, for example.

One example of that in the Tyranid Codex, I think, is the number of pinning weapons that make up for the lack of grenades, and then grenade-substitutes for the sort of things you'd have to hit Fearless troops with anyways.

Call it beating the same drum as others on this page I guess. I'm new to tyranids and I think someone said something earlier about a fixation with MCs carrying on from the previous codexes. (codices?) Again, as I am new to nods but not the game I've been running 2k pt builds with the only MCs I have are trygons and mawlocs with just bunches of cheap swarms upgraded with adrenal glands.

I know that tourny play won't be easy with the sheer number of models, but pound for pound I've had MUCH more success against all lists, including iterations of tourny tuned gunlines, with swarms than I have with MC heavy lists. I'll try to record some batreps in the future. The basic ideas are the same though. I don't care if you kill 20-30 models in turn 1, because I have still have a whole bunch that are closing and outflanked genestealers and deep striking MCs.

Yepp, I agree completely with you Nurglitch. Implicit synergies is something that needs a lot more thought in this game. The lash+oblit combo is imho an excellent example of badly or unimaginatively playtested synergy. GW really needs to hire a bunch of slightly autistic gametesters, or even better start using public playtesting of their rules. MMO companies have understood the value of letting actual players do beta testing for them a long time ago.

On a very general note about game design: Synergies should give a bonus that is noticeable but that does not stack or multiply indefinitely. As a very rough illustration I'd say anything that increases or decreases effectivity of a gaming piece (such as a unit in 40k) by around 10-15% as a passive ability and around 25% as an activated ability that can be countered in some way (like a psychic power behaves in 40k for example) runs a very small risk of breaking the game.

Points cost should be calculated as if a lot of, maybe even maximum, synergy is applied to the unit. Consider the obvious synergy of a squad of DE wyches and a raider transport. The wyches should have a significantly lower points cost if they did not have reasonable access to a transport vehicle. If a player wants to be stupid and not apply this synergy to her available units, that is a valid choice to make, but that player should loose. Because a game should be won by making intelligent choices, and by playing with an element of chance.

Further on, there should be meaningful choices to be made. In an ideal world the points costs are a part of this. In practice the 40k points costs tends to drive players to not at all take certain units that would be interesting to play if only the points cost were lower. Other meaningful choices could be what equipment to give to a unit with limited slots for them. Heavy weapons available to IG is an example of a good application of this. Both autocannons and lascannons are all viable alternatives for your heavy weapon teams, and they are alternatives that makes a lot of difference.

I'm btw very happy with how the tyranid codex handles assault grenades by not having them, but instead giving other tools, quite often to other units. It makes for much more interesting games. It also makes it meaningful to deploy in cover for protection against assaults, wich adds another meaningful choice to the opponent of the tyranid player.

One synergy that was nearly there is the broodlords Aura of Despair. It could have been allowed to stack with devourers, pinning and things like the psychic scream. As it is, it works with SitW and it can help you break a unit on your assault (wich you hardly ever wants to do).

The problem with swarm is that you dont have efficient tool to open armour box, if gaunts can carry melta,who will bother heavy vemon cannon on MCs?

Swarm is annoying,but those anti-vehicle ability still lies on some key units, which still give opponent targets to destroy first, after that is tank-shock the rest off objective.

The difference between nids and other armies in 40k is that nids dont have melta in every slot ,nids dont have any transport vehicle, only demon is similar to nids in this case ,but they have iSv ,Enternal warrior and 50% auto depoly first turn, what nids have now are some overpriced MCs and small ones who can hardly harm armour targets.

Given that most vehicles have AV10 rear armour, and that units like Dreadnoughts and AV14 all-round is comparatively rare, Tyranid swarms have plenty of anti-vehicle (as opposed to anti-tank) if you consider stuff like Genestealers, Raveners, and other stuff with Rending Claws and/or Adrenal Glands.

[rant] Not that I've ever put much stock or hope into the PR material that GW disguises as "strategies" on their official homepage, but this error made me wonder. In the Tyranid psychic power tactica pdf I found this phrase: You could try using a Genestealer Broodlord or two to bring down the Leadership of nearby enemies before unleashing The Horror or Psychic Scream. *sigh* it seems like I was not the only one that thought that was a good idea... [/rant]

Mellon wrote:[rant] Not that I've ever put much stock or hope into the PR material that GW disguises as "strategies" on their official homepage, but this error made me wonder. In the Tyranid psychic power tactica pdf I found this phrase: You could try using a Genestealer Broodlord or two to bring down the Leadership of nearby enemies before unleashing The Horror or Psychic Scream. *sigh* it seems like I was not the only one that thought that was a good idea... [/rant]

I think in the rule "until the end of the following player turn" means the end of the same player(nids player)'s next turn.


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Nurglitch wrote:Given that most vehicles have AV10 rear armour, and that units like Dreadnoughts and AV14 all-round is comparatively rare, Tyranid swarms have plenty of anti-vehicle (as opposed to anti-tank) if you consider stuff like Genestealers, Raveners, and other stuff with Rending Claws and/or Adrenal Glands.

as others said before use a 200pts unit takes down a 40pts transport ,then get flamed next round is not a efficient way to deal with armour.

ED209 wrote:
I think in the rule "until the end of the following player turn" means the end of the same player(nids player)'s next turn.

Interesting interpretation... I can see this being the idea, and it makes for some tricky synergies and combos that needs to be activated on one turn and then used the following. But I think, RAW, that the end of the following player turn (BRB p9) is when the tyranid opposing player has completed its player turn.

Mellon wrote:

ED209 wrote:
I think in the rule "until the end of the following player turn" means the end of the same player(nids player)'s next turn.

Interesting interpretation... I can see this being the idea, and it makes for some tricky synergies and combos that needs to be activated on one turn and then used the following. But I think, RAW, that the end of the following player turn (BRB p9) is when the tyranid opposing player has completed its player turn.

I will agree with you in RAW case, lets see how GW slaps its own face this time

Hehehe. My guess is that they will errata Aura of Despair to be usable earlier in the tyranid turn. I bet you five internets ;-)

200 pts for a fourty point transport? If used appropriately you won't hit that many models, unless of course you are a group of burnas with ALL flamers. I've used swarms of hormagaunts to take down a transport. Funny part is, and people know this if they think about it. If you surround that transport entirely with 20+ models (which is easy to do with hormies.) and crack it, that unit is gone. No room for emergency disembark, just poof. The trick with swarms is manuevering while taking fire for best execution of your plan, not the opponents.

The problem with swarm is that you dont have efficient tool to open armour box, if gaunts can carry melta,who will bother heavy vemon cannon on MCs?

I've seen tyranids in every incarnation of the game. When have they ever had an efficient tool to pop tanks? The answer is never. Massed attacks of anything that can hurt AV10 rears works. Just the logistics of your opponent moving his units becomes problematic if you are swarmed.

CaptKaruthors wrote:

The problem with swarm is that you dont have efficient tool to open armour box, if gaunts can carry melta,who will bother heavy vemon cannon on MCs?

I've seen tyranids in every incarnation of the game. When have they ever had an efficient tool to pop tanks? The answer is never. Massed attacks of anything that can hurt AV10 rears works. Just the logistics of your opponent moving his units becomes problematic if you are swarmed.

I've never played nids so I can't speak from experience with that army but I do play orks and I know that attempting to assault vehicles with flimsy troops, even with a power klaw usually doesn't end well. You're not guaranteed to even destroy the vehicle, if you do you might be taking explosion wounds, and worst of all you don't get a consolidate. You're now bunched up for a variety of blast and template weapons at point blank range often without a cover save.

Nash is right. A horde of Hoppies can take out a chimera, but they are then bunched up for the flamers. FnP on the hoppies could go a long way to helping with that.

CaptKaruthors wrote:

The problem with swarm is that you dont have efficient tool to open armour box, if gaunts can carry melta,who will bother heavy vemon cannon on MCs?

I've seen tyranids in every incarnation of the game. When have they ever had an efficient tool to pop tanks? The answer is never. Massed attacks of anything that can hurt AV10 rears works. Just the logistics of your opponent moving his units becomes problematic if you are swarmed.

We do have cheap MCs in last edition and that's what we use to hunt tanks, not swarm.

Well how about surrounding that 35pt Rhino with the 200pts of Hormagaunts, and then preventing emergency disembarkation when they Glance it to Wreckage? Then you get to destroy the vehicle and the troops cowering within it.

Throw in some Auras of Despair from local Genestealers and maybe you get lucky and the units in the vehicles fail their pinning tests.

Sometimes not causing AP1 hits is good, from the perspective of not causing explosion damage on your own troops.

Here is the next list I intend to test against IG:

Hive Tyrant w/ Lashwhip-Bonesword, Scything Talons, Ancient Enemy, Life Leach, Paroxysm, Regeneration, Thorax Swarm w/ Shreddershard Beatles = 240

2 Tyrant Guard = 120

-Elites-

3 Hive Guard = 150

3 Hive Guard = 150

2 Venomthropes = 110

-Troops-

18 Termagaunts = 90

18 Termagaunts = 90

Tervigon w/ Catalyst, Toxin, Adrenal, Regeneration, Cluster Spines = 225

Tervigon w/ Catalyst, Toxin, Adrenal, Regeneration, Cluster Spines = 225

-Heavy Support-

Tyrannofex w/ Rupture Cannon, Regeneration, Thorax Swarm w/ Shreddershard Beatles, Cluster Spines = 295

Tyrannofex w/ Rupture Cannon, Regeneration, Thorax Swarm w/ Shreddershard Beatles, Cluster Spines = 295


Probably going to crash and burn. I may do a battle report.

I like the list but it looks a bit slow - can you get to their lines by turn 2?

Well, my thoughts are thus, and everything I could be saying may not work out in practice, but I figure it's worth a shot.

The goal of the list is to put as much on the table that is either getting cover saves from each other, or at the very least get cover saves from the Venomthropes, The idea being that it can be very resilient to an IG gun line. The idea to put regeneration on everything plays into that as well. It forces the IG player to fully concentrate on a single Tyranid MC at a time. Something I actually want to happen. I can aford to loose a Tyrannofex or a Tervigon on turn one if it means that the rest of my force is still shooting and advancing, and if by some miracle the beast does live, then I have a pretty decent opportunity to regenerate it's wounds.

In playing against IG so often, I have realized that the real killers of walking tyranids are Lascannons. Nobody fields Missile Launchers in an IG army, and most field massive Autocannons. Well, I can FNP myself against the "lighter" shooting. But if I use a Tyrannofex to give my Tervigon a 4+ Cover Save from outflanking or scouting vendettas, how long can it last? It's an interesting question.

I figure I am on a good footing in the game if I still have half the big creatures on the table by turn three and they are in the middle of the field, because hopefully by then I had taken out the Vendetta support, and I am putting cluster spine templates on Guardsman.

The list can still hang against other lists for all the reasons that Shep has mentioned. IG and Space Wolves are the toughest nuts to crack, and hopefully I have created a list that can address at least the IG portion.

Wouldn't the Imperial Guard player be concentrating firepower on each Monstrous Creature until it's dead anyways?

Mahu wrote:Well, my thoughts are thus, and everything I could be saying may not work out in practice, but I figure it's worth a shot.

The goal of the list is to put as much on the table that is either getting cover saves from each other, or at the very least get cover saves from the Venomthropes, The idea being that it can be very resilient to an IG gun line. The idea to put regeneration on everything plays into that as well. It forces the IG player to fully concentrate on a single Tyranid MC at a ....

I think the autocannon IG will first try to take down your hive guards, if they got first turn you wont have FNP on them, after that what left offensive power in your list are only two tyrannofex pop 4 S10 shots at BS3 per turn, even they do destroy some armours it wont be enough.

there is some mathhammer in this post
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/278511.page

against AV12 hive guard is 3.6 times point efficiency as tyrannofex(that's why IG will target them first). the damage output by a tyrannofex in 6turns is
6 rounds = 12 shots = 6 hits
AV10 6 pen, 1.98 destroyed.
AV12 1.02 glance, 4.02 pen, 1.32 destroyed.
AV14 1.02 glance, 2.04 pen, 0.66 destroyed.

which means let alone tyrannofex wont do much ,if the opponent just igorne them ,their points will be totally waste. so if that's all the offensive power left after hiveguards dead, this list wont do so great against IG IMHO.

ED209 wrote:I think the autocannon IG will first try to take down your hive guards, if they got first turn you wont have FNP on them, after that what left offensive power in your list are only two tyrannofex pop 4 S10 shots at BS3 per turn, even they do destroy some armours it wont be enough.

Hence Mahu's nested TMCs. 2 Tyrannofexes should provide cover for the Tervigons; the Hive Guard should be completely hidden behind the wall of big bugs (with little bugs out front covering the "I see it between the legs!" issue), at least on turn 1.

Have you thought about changing the Tfexi - to regular Carni's with Stranglthorn cannons? Have 3 of them in one unit. They would cover more space providing a broader front for cover saves AND it would only take one unit to give all of them FNP or a 5+ cover save.

Janthkin wrote:Hence Mahu's nested TMCs. 2 Tyrannofexes should provide cover for the Tervigons; the Hive Guard should be completely hidden behind the wall of big bugs (with little bugs out front covering the "I see it between the legs!" issue), at least on turn 1.

That will depend on the looks of those DIY T-fex ,if you use the trygon base ,it will push the hive guard far back from the front line, also I wont count on completely blocking LOS, even somehow you achieve that ,the formation will be too vulnerable to blast damage.

Here is my Tyrannofex, I still need to convert another one:

Janthkin wrote:

ED209 wrote:I think the autocannon IG will first try to take down your hive guards, if they got first turn you wont have FNP on them, after that what left offensive power in your list are only two tyrannofex pop 4 S10 shots at BS3 per turn, even they do destroy some armours it wont be enough.

Hence Mahu's nested TMCs. 2 Tyrannofexes should provide cover for the Tervigons; the Hive Guard should be completely hidden behind the wall of big bugs (with little bugs out front covering the "I see it between the legs!" issue), at least on turn 1.

Well, if the Hive Guard are enough of a priority (and everyone I've played them against has realized quickly how strong and they are), the Vendettas will open up into them, and I can't imagine a Tfex tall and bulky enough to completely hide the entire HG from a Vendetta's point of view. Particularly given that they can maneuver a huge amount (if IG is going first they'll use that Scout move to get into an advantageous firing position, plus a 6" move during the first turn). I can't picture a scenario that you can keep them completely hidden, 100%, without some LOS blocking terrain.

It occurs to me that Hive Guard would be the kings of 4th edition, the way LOS worked then. Park them behind some MCs or size 2 or 3 area terrain and fire with impunity.

And in terms of people's testing armies focusing on MC's instead of the huge swarms of bugs, I can't speak for anyone else, but personally that's what I have. Between my Nids and things I've acquired from other people, I have around 4 Hive Tyrants, half a dozen Tyrant guard (which will turn into Hive Guard), 8ish Carnifexes (which may turn into a combo of Cfexes, Tfexes, and Tervies), over a dozen Warriors, a pile of Genestealers, and only around 30 Termagants. I don't have enough Termagants to even reliably field a Tervigon now, much less 2, and I certainly don't have the models for giant Termagant or Hormagaunt or Gargoyle swarms of 100+ critters. I'd love to be able to field a Nid army using at least mostly models I already have. And since my initial testing has been to gear up for Adepticon, if it turns out that competitive Nids involves tons and tons of ankle-biters, I won't be able to purchase, assemble, paint, and practice with an army like that enough to be comfortable taking it to the 40k Champs at Adepticon. So that's the reason that my testing has been focused on heavy MC so far. That's what worked in 4th, so that's what I have (and what other people have when I take over their collections). Other people may have their own reasons. Mine have been driven by the fact that if I need to pick up 30-40 more Hormagaunts, 30+ Gargoyles, and 45-50 more Termagants, it'll have to be a back-burner type of army. Maybe by 'Ard Boyz, but certainly not for March.

sirisaacnuton wrote:Well, if the Hive Guard are enough of a priority (and everyone I've played them against has realized quickly how strong and they are), the Vendettas will open up into them, and I can't imagine a Tfex tall and bulky enough to completely hide the entire HG from a Vendetta's point of view. Particularly given that they can maneuver a huge amount (if IG is going first they'll use that Scout move to get into an advantageous firing position, plus a 6" move during the first turn). I can't picture a scenario that you can keep them completely hidden, 100%, without some LOS blocking terrain.

This would be a win-win scenario for the 'Nid player. This side of 9 Vendettas, they won't be able to put enough fire into a Hive Guard brood (in cover) to kill them all off (each Vendetta only averages about 1 wound), and those lascannons are a much bigger threat to the Tfex standing in front. It's things like autocannons & multilasers which really destroy Hive Guard, not single-shot weapons.

And in terms of people's testing armies focusing on MC's instead of the huge swarms of bugs, I can't speak for anyone else, but personally that's what I have. Between my Nids and things I've acquired from other people, I have around 4 Hive Tyrants, half a dozen Tyrant guard (which will turn into Hive Guard), 8ish Carnifexes (which may turn into a combo of Cfexes, Tfexes, and Tervies), over a dozen Warriors, a pile of Genestealers, and only around 30 Termagants. I don't have enough Termagants to even reliably field a Tervigon now, much less 2, and I certainly don't have the models for giant Termagant or Hormagaunt or Gargoyle swarms of 100+ critters. I'd love to be able to field a Nid army using at least mostly models I already have. And since my initial testing has been to gear up for Adepticon, if it turns out that competitive Nids involves tons and tons of ankle-biters, I won't be able to purchase, assemble, paint, and practice with an army like that enough to be comfortable taking it to the 40k Champs at Adepticon. So that's the reason that my testing has been focused on heavy MC so far. That's what worked in 4th, so that's what I have (and what other people have when I take over their collections). Other people may have their own reasons. Mine have been driven by the fact that if I need to pick up 30-40 more Hormagaunts, 30+ Gargoyles, and 45-50 more Termagants, it'll have to be a back-burner type of army. Maybe by 'Ard Boyz, but certainly not for March.

Well, yes. This is how GW likes to do things, after all. Don't throw your TMCs away, though - in 6th or 7th edition, they'll be dominant again.

Except that the lascannons instakill the hive guard, so they only need to do one wound each, right?

No they dont - the HG are T6 with a 4+ save and 2 W's. They arent MC's.

Hive Guard are T6 so nope, they'd need at least 2 wounds

I actually suspect that the IG would concentrate on the Tervigons first to remove scoring units and the synergy of the Gaunt Screen, so the goal is to use the Tyrannofexs as 4+ cover to the Tervigon. Hive Guard will get a 4+ cover regardless, so it isn't absolutely necessary to give them FNP.

Ah right, sorry was thinking of zoanthropes.

Janthkin wrote:
This would be a win-win scenario for the 'Nid player. This side of 9 Vendettas, they won't be able to put enough fire into a Hive Guard brood (in cover) to kill them all off (each Vendetta only averages about 1 wound), and those lascannons are a much bigger threat to the Tfex standing in front. It's things like autocannons & multilasers which really destroy Hive Guard, not single-shot weapons.

Good point. It would be a horrendous waste of Vendetta fire to try to go after those guys with no supporting fire.

However, I'm still not seeing a way to keep the Hive Guard from being at least a little visible. If they do have some number of Vendettas (and who doesn't), they can shoot down whichever MC won't get cover. After all, even moderately tall things in front of them won't cover 50% from a Vendetta's POV. So as soon as one MC (who likely won't be getting cover) is shot down, now there's a hole to pour Autocannon/Multilaser fire at the Hive Guard. It has the advantage of denying the first turn "Fire on my Target" order, as it relies on the Vendettas shooting first. But after all the games of 5th I've played, I can't imagine a deployment that completely denies LOS to even 6 Hive Guard by using other models. The models generally have too much empty space on their bases for that (the TMC that currently have models would have huge gaps between them, even when base-to-base). It would be quite a job staggering them to make a solid wall. And how many points is that? 2 Tfexes and 2 Tervigons plus some number of Hive Guard is not an insignificant number of points already, and there's no way those 4 models are fully blocking LOS. Unless conversions for them have them stretching completely across their bases, taking up every bit of space, I'm just not seeing it being practical.

If people have actually managed to pull this off, by all means let me know what combination of models you used to achieve it. But as a theoretical exercise, I just can't see it working practically when the slightest view of a toe or hand or shoulder between two bodies lets the entire squad be targetted.

I don't think you can avoid the Hive Guard as targets, but I don't think they are super critical to the battle plan either.

Which battle plan? My plan was to try to break some vehicles with shooting while marching across the battle field until charges can be declared all over the place. I've found Hive Guard are hugely critical for that...without them I pretty much can't put the brakes on the amount of fire coming toward me, or get things out of vehicles prior to assault so I can assault the squishy contents instead of the box.

I may just be approaching the situation all wrong, but that's the battle plan I've been trying out, and Hive Guard are hugely make-or-break for me.

I mean that by saying that Hive Guard are not critical to my battle plan past turn three. Hopefully by then I had put enough of a dent in my opponents army and I am in assault range with my TMCs.

Mahu wrote:I mean that by saying that Hive Guard are not critical to my battle plan past turn three. Hopefully by then I had put enough of a dent in my opponents army and I am in assault range with my TMCs.

this

Shep wrote:
Autocannons have been wrecking my hive guard, especially when under 'fire on my target' orders. Just because they are getting a cover save, doesn't mean that 39 autocannon hits per turn at 2k points doesn't just put nine hive guard back in the case before they've had a chance to fire.

And as to the semi-mech thing... I agree, my space wolves gunlines have foot long fang units and my IG armies have HWS. But they aren't the problem. Nids COULD throw stranglethorn cannons at those units while moving forward, or outflank/infiltrate some genestealers to threaten them. What is shutting down my nids is the fact that they have one slot with ranged anti-armor, and one slot with 265 point combination ranged/CC. Could I get a meltagun on my podding warriors? How about something in fast attack that isn't a single -1 on damage table lascannon for 170 points? Until I can get 'real' fire support spread over at least three different FOC slots... then this army is an aggro deep striker army unless you just want to give up games against any gunline.


As far as what would make a ground and pound nid army work, they just need more long range (at least 36" assault) consistent tank kill.

Robin chickened out on the venom cannon, its really sad that I'd actually prefer the two shot strength 10 glancing hit only gun that we used to have. Give me 3 of those in heavy, three in fast attack and a couple units of hive guard and I'll deploy across from a gunline... until then, I'll just reserve and pod in. HVC should have just straight up been two strength 9 shots with no -1. Regular VCs should have been autocannons. If you think that would make nids a gunline, then you haven't seen what some of these space wolf and IG armies can do.

through all the reading in this post I think the main reason shep quit his former list is because after Hive guards dead he doesnt have any efficient anti-vehicle units ,and I think your list is very similar to what shep used before ,thus same situation,against a ture gunline you will unlikely get your charge without damage some vehicles first, they will shoot you off the table.

I agree ED209 - trying to compete against a gunline with Bug guns is like taking a knife to a gunfight. Swamp 'em with gribblies that can pen armor - thats my take. The problem this creates is extended movement phases that are prohibitive to tournies.

I have to go back and respond to a bunch of stuff since I've been gone, but I just want to add that another problem with trying to screen hive guard completely out of LOS is their range.

Any mech gunline can deploy no further than 5" on table if they want to. In pitched battle (best case scenario for hive guard), that puts 31" of range between anything they can field and the hive guard. Even if you deploy at 12" you don't have a turn 1 shot. If you deployed a full 8" back to get behind a double-stack of sideways valkyrie based MCs, then you've got 39" to cover... minus your range of 24" gives you 15". Two movement phases possibly through terrain, and only one run roll could very easily have you completely out of range even on turn 2.

Just believe me when i say that if that happens, it is a total disaster.

Someone mentioned that the dakkafex is now the hive guard, and that is pretty spot on. Costs more but does WAY more.

The only problem is where is the boom-fex or sniper-fex? We have the terri-bad heavy venom cannon carnifex, that costs more and does less to gunlines, or we have the VERY costly t-fex, which does more, at about 80% additional cost.

The third factor to consider when making analogies to the old codex, was how many tourney regulars were having any trouble at all beating a 4th edition nidzilla list in 5th edition? I know I wasn't...

Nids didn't need to get a side-grade for me to feel confident bringing them to a tourney, they needed a clear upgrade.

At the Broadside Bash I played against a guy with 30 Warriors in pods.

Made for quite an interesting army.

Shep, what do you think of Onslaught on the Tervigons?

As in, you cast Onlsaught on the Hive Guard, they get 6" + D6 and then fire. It has the potential of extending the practical average range of them to 34". Sure, you loose FNP on them, but if it has the potential of taking out the ranged threats to the Tyranids on turn one, it might be worth it.

Shep wrote: If you deployed a full 8" back to get behind a double-stack of sideways valkyrie based MCs, then you've got 39" to cover... minus your range of 24" gives you 15". Two movement phases possibly through terrain, and only one run roll could very easily have you completely out of range even on turn 2.

Absolutely. Main reason I plop my HG on the line, so long as they're at least toeing some cover. Hopefully cover saves + T6 is enough (though when it's not enough is when the HG are most critical, unfortunately).

Shep wrote:
The third factor to consider when making analogies to the old codex, was how many tourney regulars were having any trouble at all beating a 4th edition nidzilla list in 5th edition? I know I wasn't...

Nids didn't need to get a side-grade for me to feel confident bringing them to a tourney, they needed a clear upgrade.

This. 4th ed Nids weren't absolutely terribad in 5th (at least at first, when Orks and Daemons ran around a lot) but they got progressively worse and worse with the newer 5th releases. But yes, they needed an improvement, not the same army with different models.

@Mahu: I like Onslaught. I've used it a few times for getting the Zoeys into a first-turn Lance shot when I get to go first. Opposing LR right on the line, set up directly across from me for max-speed delivering TH/SS, the Onslaught get them into first turn shoot range. Sometimes very big. However, most of the time I end up taking it along with Catalyst, and then using Catalyst almost always if not exclusively.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Corollary: The old 4th edition Nidzilla didn't care one bit about synapse, at least after the FAQ that decided Fearless things don't test at all. That's very different now. If your long-range shooters suddenly have to shoot the nearest target and your Fexes gain Rage, that's an issue. Synapse is much more important than it ever was for Nidzilla, yet another reason a 1-to-1 analogy doesn't quite hold up.

Speaking of Onslaught, it might be something to use it on a brood of Carnifex: Give them Heavy Venom Cannons to make trouble as they advance, and give them Crushing Claws to make sure that they get between 6-8 attacks on the charge against whatever vehicles they can catch.

But speaking of hordes, I'm pretty sure at least one player here (Redbeard) had discovered how to move an Ork horde quickly, so I don't see why there should be problems with Tyranid hordes in time-crunch situations.

Nurglitch wrote:Speaking of Onslaught, it might be something to use it on a brood of Carnifex: Give them Heavy Venom Cannons to make trouble as they advance, and give them Crushing Claws to make sure that they get between 6-8 attacks on the charge against whatever vehicles they can catch.

But speaking of hordes, I'm pretty sure at least one player here (Redbeard) had discovered how to move an Ork horde quickly, so I don't see why there should be problems with Tyranid hordes in time-crunch situations.

Crushing Claws and Heavy venom cannons are the worst two things you can give to a carnifex.

Says who?

Me

Carnifexes are only good in pods nowadays. You put them on the table and they die to long range fire.

The only way I can think it would work is if you fielded 6 to 9 of them on the table, but their firepower isn't nearly as good as Hive Guard or Tyrannofexes.

6 HVC Carnifexes run 1100 Points. For 6 str. 9 shots. In comparison 3 Tyrannofexes w/ Rupture Cannons cost 795 points for 6 str. 10 shots that don't have a penetration penalty.

I think the best variant of the Carnifex is either the Dakkafex, or the Mahufex (that's right, I named it ).

Dakkafex = 2 Twin-linked Devourers = 190

Mahufex = Scything Talons, Devourers, Bioplasma = 195

Stick them in a Pod and drop them on what needs to die. Against the Trygon, you essentially trade 2 wounds and combat ability for three times the firepower, almost guaranteed cover, and better anti-tank CC.

Why do they die to long ranged fire? Don't you have Venomthropes to give them cover? Don't you have Tervigons to give the Feel No Pain? Don't you have swarms of smaller bugs to also threaten them?

The penetration penalty on the Heavy Venom Cannon only applies to non-open-topped vehicles, but who cares? That firepower is just there to disrupt the enemy's vehicles while the Tyranids close. Which they'll do faster if they can run before shooting. It's not like taking the Carnifex will prevent you from taking Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, Lictors, and whatever you want for anti-vehicle work except for a big target that dies just as easily to Lascannons.

The problem with the Mycetic Spore is that they arrive Turn 2 or later, and it really jacks up their cost. Pretty good other than that though.

Nurglitch wrote:Says who?

Carnifex with crushing claws and heavy vemon cannon cost 210pts , what you get from that is a nerfed BS3 lascannon (12" shorter ,-1 to damage roll, AP4) , a vendetta has three twin-linked lascannon for 130pts, even you have 4 T6 SV3wounds it wont matter for S9AP2 ,I dont believe you can hurt any IG gunline by this type weapon; second the crushing claws add D3 attacks by taking away the reroll from STs ,which in most case worse than the reroll all hit STs ,and cost 25pts more, it is one of the stupidest upgrade in this codex . now you put these together and hope they can achieve sth., just wont work, not to mention you sink further more points by useing tervigons to support them.

here is a report on typical battle where walking carnifex against IG gunline
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245035


the three carnifex dead before do any thing, so normally what you can get from walking carnifex are just some targets for IG to shoot ,expect them to reach enemy line is just a sad idea.

ED209:

Since you put it that way, I couldn't agree less.

Firstly, who cares if it's BS3? It's a blast weapon. Secondly it costs less than a Vendetta. So what? Are you going to fill up the Heavy Support choices in a Tyranid army with a Vendetta? Can the Vendetta charge enemy units with 6-8 S9 attacks? Is the Vendetta completely immune to Shaken results? Can the Carnifexes' weapons be destroyed, or be destroyed on immobilized results when gathered in broods? Is the Vendetta an effect anti-infantry platform as well as anti-tank?

You understand the concept of apples to oranges, right?

Now let me address the battle report. Those were basic stock Carnifex models. No guns, no ability to do anything more than be walking targets, and concentrated in a single brood. And they still made a difference with their close combat ability!

In fact that sort of use of a Carnifex is why you should have them with some sort of gun if they're going to be slogging it up the field. The Tyranids had the first turn and didn't have any shooting! That player sucked and deserved the tie he got by ceding his first turn's shooting phase.

So I should thank you for making my argument for me, I suppose, but your argument is so condescending ("just a sad idea" really?) and inane I'm ashamed that it supports my position.

Just for the sake of argument, what kinda list would you suggest utilize CC/HVC Carnifexes.

Head Quarters
Tervigon
w/Catalyst, Onslaught, Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, Crushing Claws, Cluster Spines

Elites
Hive Guard Brood
3x Hive Guard

Hive Guard Brood
3x Hive Guard

Venomthrope Brood
2x Venomthropes

Troops
Termagant Brood
25x Termagants

Termagant Brood
25x Termagants

Tervigon
w/Catalyst, Onslaught, Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, Crushing Claws, Cluster Spines

Tervigon
w/Catalyst, Onslaught, Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, Crushing Claws, Cluster Spines

Heavy Support
Carnifex Brood
1x Carnifex
w/Heavy Venom Cannon, Crushing Claws

Carnifex Brood
1x Carnifex
w/Heavy Venom Cannon, Crushing Claws

Carnifex Brood
1x Carnifex
w/Heavy Venom Cannon, Crushing Claws

Nurglitch wrote:ED209:

Since you put it that way, I couldn't agree less.

Firstly, who cares if it's BS3? It's a blast weapon. Secondly it costs less than a Vendetta. So what? Are you going to fill up the Heavy Support choices in a Tyranid army with a Vendetta? Can the Vendetta charge enemy units with 6-8 S9 attacks? Is the Vendetta completely immune to Shaken results? Can the Carnifexes' weapons be destroyed, or be destroyed on immobilized results when gathered in broods? Is the Vendetta an effect anti-infantry platform as well as anti-tank?

You understand the concept of apples to oranges, right?

Now let me address the battle report. Those were basic stock Carnifex models. No guns, no ability to do anything more than be walking targets, and concentrated in a single brood. And they still made a difference with their close combat ability!

In fact that sort of use of a Carnifex is why you should have them with some sort of gun if they're going to be slogging it up the field. The Tyranids had the first turn and didn't have any shooting! That player sucked and deserved the tie he got by ceding his first turn's shooting phase.

So I should thank you for making my argument for me, I suppose, but your argument is so condescending ("just a sad idea" really?) and inane I'm ashamed that it supports my position.

I dont think I need to say anything more, but I will still point out some basic points that it seems you dont understand them, first by BS3 Lascannon ,I mean the small blast on Carnifex will normally hit a vehicle with 50% chance (do the math yourself); second by vendetta is a example how things match up to each other in two armies, autocannon goes to hiveguard , lascannon goes to carnifex , vendetta is the typical unit with lascannon in IG's list; third in the report the carnifex didnt have guns so it's for sure the nids player were running them to IG ,that's the same speed when onslaught is on ,and they cant reach before dead. however the difference here is that nids player is smarter ,he ran naked carnifex without any upgrade and spent those points else where.

your list is just a wash by changing 2tyrannofex to 3carnifex , same number of wounds and sv2 down to sv3 thus eat more rokets when facing other armies,lost anti horde ability on T-fex, 4 BS3 S10 48'' shots down to 3 BS3(50% hit chance) S9 36'' shots that -1 on damage roll ..... as I said before sad idea.

I will agree with ED209 to the point where you really haven't come up with anything different enough from the Hive Guard - Tervigon - Tyrannofex meat shield list.

If you think 3 Carnifexes and three Tervigons can survive an even remotely optimal IG gun line then I doubt you have had many test games.

If you want to talk about walking Carnifexes, you have to take into account the one thing a Carnifex has over the other MCs and that is numbers. How about something like this:

-HQ-

Tervigon w/ Adrenal, Toxin, Catalyst = 195

-Elites-

3 Hive Guard = 150

3 Hive Guard = 150

3 Venomthoppes = 165

-Troops-

20 Termagaunts = 100

20 Termagaunts = 100

-Heavy Support-

2 Carnifexes w/ 2 Devourers = 380

2 Carnifexes w/ 2 Devourers = 380

2 Carnifexes w/ 2 Devourers = 380

Devourers are superior against massed AV 12 because of the range involved and number of shots.

Mahu:

Given that your list had a Tyrant, two Tyrant Guard, two Tervigons, and two Tyrannofexes, how do you suppose those would survive an Imperial Guard gunline?

The list I gave can engage more vehicle units for the Shaken or Stunned results, and had more Monstrous Creature targets for the enemy to engage. More to the point there is a Tervigon with Catalyst for every Carnifex so Missile Launchers and Autocannons are 1/2 the issue.

Take the battle report that ED209 linked to: the Imperial Guard get a free hand in their first turn of firing despite the Tyranid player getting the first turn, and one Carnifex still managed to reach and destroy a Chimera.

The list you've given loses the benefit of the Heavy Venom Cannon's range, increases the cost of each Carnifex over the basic model while reducing its close combat effectiveness, loses the benefits of the Tervigons, makes overkill less wasteful against the individual broods of Monstrous Creatures as now you only have four target units for the Imperial Guard to focus their fire on, and you have very little that can hold objectives (the single Tervigon won't make up for the two small units of Termagants).

Nurglitch, I know you play the contrary game on this board, but you also need to keep in mind that many experienced players have *tried* to make HVC Carnifexes work. This isn't a mental exercise on our part. If you feel that you've unlocked something, then do some battle reports of your own against the kind of armies that Shep laid out and prove it. It's pretty clear this discussion is going to go nowhere when -- as your comments show -- we can't even agree on some important basic premises.

Given that your list had a Tyrant, two Tyrant Guard, two Tervigons, and two Tyrannofexes, how do you suppose those would survive an Imperial Guard gunline?

Through judicious use of cover and regeneration. My list still have better quality of fire then yours and besides I already admitted that it might not work.

The list I gave can engage more vehicle units for the Shaken or Stunned results, and had more Monstrous Creature targets for the enemy to engage. More to the point there is a Tervigon with Catalyst for every Carnifex so Missile Launchers and Autocannons are 1/2 the issue.

Provided you go first. I guarantee you with only 5+ cover that an IG gunline can take down 2 Carnifexes a turn. MLs are not an issue against Guard. It's more Lascannons, Plasmaguns, and Melta that are all AP 2 and laugh at FNP.

In fact, a good IG player will make sure the Tervigons die first because they now how easy it is to deal with Carnifexes at short range.

Take the battle report that ED209 linked to: the Imperial Guard get a free hand in their first turn of firing despite the Tyranid player getting the first turn, and one Carnifex still managed to reach and destroy a Chimera.

Oh, I have no doubt something will be able to get to the IG lines. The issue versus IG is not whether or not you can reach their lines, it has more to do with whether or not you are winning the war of attrition at that point. You don't want to be in a point where you are playing down in either objectives or Kill Points by turn three. Pardon the pun, but Tyranids don't have enough teeth to fight their way out of that hole.

The list you've given loses the benefit of the Heavy Venom Cannon's range, increases the cost of each Carnifex over the basic model while reducing its close combat effectiveness, loses the benefits of the Tervigons, makes overkill less wasteful against the individual broods of Monstrous Creatures as now you only have four target units for the Imperial Guard to focus their fire on, and you have very little that can hold objectives (the single Tervigon won't make up for the two small units of Termagants).

My Carnifex list can threaten and stun AV 12 on turn one, two at the most by sheer weight of firepower. Like you said, you really just want to stun tanks and then get in their grill.

The Tervigon only needs to be singular because you can hold it in reserve and pop off some quick last minute scoring units.

The Carnifex has 5 attacks on the charge, if a Brood of two hit a tank, even a Land Raider moving 12" they will connect their better then Melta attacks and should have a reasonable chance to kill it.

And my list puts down 40 Termagaunts for a screen, that is more then enough.

Mahu wrote:I will agree with ED209 to the point where you really haven't come up with anything different enough from the Hive Guard - Tervigon - Tyrannofex meat shield list.

If you think 3 Carnifexes and three Tervigons can survive an even remotely optimal IG gun line then I doubt you have had many test games.

If you want to talk about walking Carnifexes, you have to take into account the one thing a Carnifex has over the other MCs and that is numbers. How about something like this:

-HQ-

Tervigon w/ Adrenal, Toxin, Catalyst = 195

-Elites-

3 Hive Guard = 150

3 Hive Guard = 150

3 Venomthoppes = 165

-Troops-

20 Termagaunts = 100

20 Termagaunts = 100

-Heavy Support-

2 Carnifexes w/ 2 Devourers = 380

2 Carnifexes w/ 2 Devourers = 380

2 Carnifexes w/ 2 Devourers = 380

Devourers are superior against massed AV 12 because of the range involved and number of shots.

this list may work, though I think the best use of Dakkafex is DS to the rear of the opponent, but with 72 BS3 twin-linked S6 shots you will glance those AV12 boxes 9 times per turn on average , this will reduce their fire power a lot ,even IG drops all the Hiveguards ,those carnfiex will have a good chance to reach and smash those armour cans.

against other armies they will also fear the incoming 72 S6 shots, the weakness is on AV14 and JoWW then.

@Nurglitch, I think you can learn sth. from Mahu's list , three heavy vemon cannons will generally give you 1.33 glance/penetrate hit against AV12 per turn , even vemon cannons open fire from turn one ,its still huge difference between 1.33 and 9. but I am glad that you dont talk about crushing claws on carnifex any more, so be reasonable those two things you give to carnifex arent a wise decision.

against other armies they will also fear the incoming 72 S6 shots, the weakness is on AV14 and JoWW then.

Now that I think about it, I think my list would be better served with walking Zoanthropes, two units of three costs 60 points more, but you can drop a single Venomthrope and some gaunts to cover that. That way you have a way to pop Land Raiders and Battle Wagons, and direct the firepower at the guys inside. And you gain Shadows of the warp to shut down Jaws late game.

Jaws isn't as much of a concern because careful deployment might net them a Carnifex a turn. And the list has 6.

Venomthropes for cover are getting mentioned a lot, and I just can't see a situation where they don't get ID'ed by Lascannons first before the rest of the shooting goes to town. Sure, a Venomthrope might eat the fire of a Vendetta first turn which means something else is protected. But that costs a precious elite slot, which means 3 less Zoeys or HG to direct that Vendetta toward anyway.

I'm just not impressed by them. Give them T5 and I'd be all over it. Or make them jump infantry (since they're just gas bags) and move them to Fast Attack and they'd be perfect. But I just can't see it.

But I do agree about Zoeys in that list Mahu. I like Zoeys a good bit, despite their downsides in some situations. And a benefit to Zoeys is that they can deploy front and center (since they don't care about cover) and give mobile cover to MC's behind, being so tall. HG can do that too, but want to be in cover themselves, or have Termagants in front, so it limits where the HG can go.

gorgon:

I guess I come off as contrary because I disagree with people writing stuff off for bad theoretical reasons and very little empirical data. The codex has been out for what, not even too months now, and people like ED209 and Shep are claiming that Crushing Claws and Venom Cannons are the worst options for the Carnifex. Regardless of their skill, they're not infallible: it's too early to say and writing these options off because they don't compare favourably on paper is simply stupid.

If I had a dollar for every time I got called contrary for disagreeing with a popular opinion, which later become unpopular as my critique of it gained popular acceptance (not because of anything I ever say, but because people's own experience and insight leads them to the same conclusion), then I would have a couple of extra bucks in my pocket.

I'm being reasonable by not closing my mind to the possibilities of Crushing Claws and/or Heavy Venom Cannon. Part of the reason I'm in favour of these options is potential. In 40k we rarely see the averages, and it's a fool that only plans for the dice to go average. If you don't have a plan for a game in which you fail all the dice rolls, then you're a weaker player than otherwise.

The Heavy Venom Cannon still has the potential to destroy tanks, and it has the added bonus of never making a tank explode (well, unless that tank is open-topped, like a Battlewagon, but other than that...). Tanks aren't the only thing it's useful against: light anti-vehicle work like hitting Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, Battlesuits, and so on.

The Tyrannofex has a better armour save and a better gun, but as you say there's all the Lascannons and Melta Guns floating around, and they can close with you as easily as you can close with them (more easily, since they tend to come in a Vendetta/Veteran package). But it's terrible in close combat.

Armed with Crushing Claws the Carnifex can have between 6 and 8 attacks on the charge.

Let's compare this potential to the reliability and potential of a Carnifex with one pair of Scything Talons, two pairs of Scything Talons, and no Scything Talons (the "Dakkafex"). Let's suppose a Land Raider moving at cruising speed as the target.

CC:
6 attacks, 6+ to hit, 5+ to damage on 2D6: ((6)(17%))(83%) = 0.85 or one damage result.

7 attacks, 6+ to hit, 5+ to damage on 2D6: ((7)(17%))(83%) = 0.99 or one damage result.

8 attacks, 6+ to hit, 5+ to damage on 2D6: ((8)(17%))(83%) = 1.13 or one damage result.

(0.85+0.99+1.13)/3 = 0.99

2xST
5 attacks, 6+ to hit re-roll misses, 5+ to damage on 2D6: (((5)(17%)+((5)(83%)(17%)))(83%) = 1.29 or one damage result.

1xST
5 attacks, 6+ to hit re-roll 1s, 5+ to damage on 2D6: (((5)(17%)+((5)(17%)(17%)))(83%) = 0.83 or one damage result.

0xST
5 attacks, 6+ to hit, 5+ to damage on 2D6: ((5)(17%))(83%) = 0.71 or one damage result.

So now we weight the expected value or reliability of the options by their potential:

2xST: 6.45
CC: 7.92

Adding Crushing Claws to a Carnifex increases its cost by 16%, whereas its combat effectiveness is improved 23% by the Crushing Claws against AV14 vehicles moving at cruising speed. That's supposing that the Carnifex exchanged its second set of Scything Talons for some non-close-combat functional weapon.

Keeping a set of Scything Talons, we'd see:

6 attacks, 6+ to hit, re-rolls 1, 5+ to damage on 2D6: ((6)(17%)+(6)(17%)(17%))(83%) = 0.99 or one damage result.

7 attacks, 6+ to hit, re-rolls 1, 5+ to damage on 2D6: ((7)(17%)+(7)(17%)(17%))(83%) = 1.16 or one damage result.

8 attacks, 6+ to hit, re-rolls 1, 5+ to damage on 2D6: ((8)(17%)+(8)(17%)(17%))(83%) = 1.32 or one damage result.

(0.99+1.16+1.32)/3 = 1.16.

Weighted by potential: 9.28

So just by adding Crushing Claws to a set of Scything Talons you add 44% to its combat effectiveness while adding only 16% to its cost. Again that's only against a cruising Land Raider, but still.

Let us additionally suppose that there's average (1/3 of the time), lucky (1/3 of the time) and unlucky). Any way you cut it unlucky sucks. The 2x Scything Talons are cheaper and most effective when average. The Crushing Claws alone are more expensive, only slightly less effective when average and more effective when lucky. The Crushing Claws and Scything Talon combination is similarly expensive, but almost as effective in average situations and likewise more effective when lucky.

Put another way, by adding Crushing Claws you trade off some slight reliability 1/3 of the time for a considerable increase in potential the other 1/3 of the time, a potential that always outweighs its relative cost on a Carnifex.

I like the cut of your gib, Nurglitch. I agree with much of what you were saying - I think part of the disconnect here is that players like you and I tend to look at potential whereas some math fiends like Shep look only at averages to the exclusion of potential.

Nurglitch wrote:
The 2x Scything Talons are cheaper and most effective when average. The Crushing Claws alone are more expensive, only slightly less effective when average and more effective when lucky. The Crushing Claws and Scything Talon combination is similarly expensive, but almost as effective in average situations and likewise more effective when lucky.

Put another way, by adding Crushing Claws you trade off some slight reliability 1/3 of the time for a considerable increase in potential the other 1/3 of the time, a potential that always outweighs its relative cost on a Carnifex.

This is my problem with Crushing Claws. Yes, obviously, nothing ever goes exactly as average. But you can't plan to be lucky or unlucky, it just happens. So you'll have to stick with the numbers. And what the numbers say, and you reiterate here (emphasis mine) is that when you replace one set of ST with CC, you are paying extra points for a situation where you get (a) less effectiveness when "unlucky" (i.e. 1 attack on the d3), (b) almost the same result when average (2 attacks), and (c) more effective when "lucky" (3 attacks). I don't see a point in paying 25 extra points for a scenario where I get a benefit 1/3 of the time, a detriment 1/3 of the time, and no real effect 1/3 of the time. That averages out to no net benefit or detriment, for 25 extra points.

And there's no doubt that CC are worse than 2 sets of ST against vehicles moving cruising speed. 5 attacks needing 6's, rerolling everything, yields an average of just over 1.52 hits. Even when "lucky" (that is rolling a 3 for the CC's d3), 8 attacks with no reroll needing 6's yields 1.33 hits. CC + 1 set of ST with 8 attacks yields 1.55 average hits. The CC + ST combo against cruising vehicles yields the tiniest increase in the number of hits (almost negligibly small) if you get a 3 on the d3, and is worse than 2x ST against vehicles if you roll a 1 or 2. Likewise, CC w/out ST has less hits no matter what comes up on the d3. Against vehicles cruising, CC decrease your effectiveness at a cost of 25 extra points.

It's not as extreme if you hit on 4's, but you're still in a boat where CC+ST is pretty much a wash vs 2xST. CC are worse when you roll a 1, barely better when you roll a 2, and better when you roll a 3. There it is a slight improvement, but not (IMO) a 25-point improvement. CC+ST are worse than 2xST when running against anything you hit on 5's as well (which is not a ton, but it comes up occasionally).

Basically, if you want your Fexes doing CC (for example, when podding in), 2xST just makes more sense than 1xST and CC. That's my big issue with CC, and why I've dismissed them so much. They give no particular benefit (on average) but cost 25 points. It doesn't make sense, and it's bad design.

Now, that having been said, if you're already pulling 1 set of ST for a gun, then yes, the CC are better than the one remaining set of ST. But if I'm running gun Fexes, I'm going to go ahead and run 2 guns on my Fex. 2x Devourers, Devourer+HVC, Devourer+Stranglethorn Cannon, or Stranglethorn+HVC. I just don't like giving up half the Fexes's shooting to take a close combat arm. The gun will mean he'll want to shoot, not Run (barring an Onslaught), so it means he'll be so slow getting up the field that the close combat arm will be largely wasted. Podding in with gun+ccw means his gun is wasted as soon as he gets in combat (which is probably quickly). Gun+ccw set up just strikes me as unfocused, and if I'm going with double close combat arm, I can't see using CC over 2xST.

And nothing personal...if you have had success with gun+ccw on Fexes, please let me know. I just can't see them providing as much utility as dedicated shooting or dedicating fighting.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: Also, is there a way to lobby for an expansion to the abbreviation recognition stuff? ST only gives Starship Troopers as a suggestion, and CC only gives close combat and Company Command Squad (which should only be CCS imo). Can we request to add on to these lists? And how about HG for Hive Guard, now that they will be so ubiquitous in Nid lists?

Nurglitch wrote:last few replies...

Thanks for being positive, thanks for being open minded, and thanks for not giving up. I appreciate the exploration you are doing on paper. But it is important to note that I have been playing test games, and bat-repping said test games. In fact one more tabling of tyranids by Blackmoor's foot eldar is going to be published tomorrow as more in-game evidence. Remember when you tell me that I am too reliant on math that I have actually played a dozen 'games' with the new nids. I'm not running simulations, I had actual opponents, we used actual dice, and the results strengthened my position in these discussions.

I want to be very clear here that I am not intending to be snarky, or facetious when i ask this next question. Have you played against anyone either using the new nids or with them using the new nids? I really would like to get more experiences in from others regarding the codex. For me and the few other players bat-repping nids in a tourney style level of competition, it is just impossible for us to figure out and test everything fast enough. the more of us that are accruing and sharing actual game experience, the better. As of now, I have played enough games with carnifex of different configurations (venom cannon, dakka, screamer-killer) that speculation on their performance isn't valuable to me. Please note that i did not say that these three are hopelessly unplayable. I have not, however, been able to come up with a take on all comers list that can handle aggressive speartip style marine armies while simultaneously being able to handle gunlines. If carnifex didn't just roll over and die to premier assault units, then they may have a bit more of a place, but as you'll see me highlight in my batrep against Blackmoor's eldar, they don't match up favorably against the MUCH cheaper wraithlord, and the wraithlord is generally not taken. Although the comparison is across two different codeces, it is demonstrative of the overcost associated to the nid MCs. If you have been playing, then I'd love to hear the what, when, where, and how, of your carnifex.

I'm not being dismissive, your contribution to this thread has generated a lot of valuable discourse. However, I have, in playing the game, not found your suggestions to be something that has helped me have a decent matchup against the two distinct tourney list types I prepare to face off against.

Somnicide wrote:...I tend to look at potential whereas some math fiends like Shep look only at averages to the exclusion of potential.

translation = I hope for luck in my games.

As all good daemon players must ;-)

Sometimes you just have to give your allegiance over to Tzeentch. Perhaps he's just as fickle as luck, but he sure loves to cause silly shenanigans.

Nurglitch wrote:Let's compare this potential to the reliability and potential of a Carnifex with one pair of Scything Talons, two pairs of Scything Talons, and no Scything Talons (the "Dakkafex"). Let's suppose a Land Raider moving at cruising speed as the target.

CC:
6 attacks, 6+ to hit, 5+ to damage on 2D6: ((6)(17%))(83%) = 0.85 or one damage result.

7 attacks, 6+ to hit, 5+ to damage on 2D6: ((7)(17%))(83%) = 0.99 or one damage result.

8 attacks, 6+ to hit, 5+ to damage on 2D6: ((8)(17%))(83%) = 1.13 or one damage result.

(0.85+0.99+1.13)/3 = 0.99

2xST
5 attacks, 6+ to hit re-roll misses, 5+ to damage on 2D6: (((5)(17%)+((5)(83%)(17%)))(83%) = 1.29 or one damage result.

1xST
5 attacks, 6+ to hit re-roll 1s, 5+ to damage on 2D6: (((5)(17%)+((5)(17%)(17%)))(83%) = 0.83 or one damage result.

0xST
5 attacks, 6+ to hit, 5+ to damage on 2D6: ((5)(17%))(83%) = 0.71 or one damage result.

So now we weight the expected value or reliability of the options by their potential:

2xST: 6.45
CC: 7.92

where are these red numbers come from?

sirisaacnuton:

I think there's some misunderstanding here. I'm not saying that you can plan to be unlucky or lucky. Luck isn't something you have agency over. But you can plan for when you are lucky and unlucky, as well as the average. If we suppose that the average happens around 1/3 of the time, good luck is ~1/3 of the time, and bad luck is ~1/3 of the time, then we can have some groundwork for considering the value of any option at all times.

Unlucky here, of course, means not that you don't get a good roll for the number of bonus Crushing Claw attacks, but when your attacks miss with a higher frequency than they would on average.

What you're paying for is a 16% improvement over all times. You're paying a premium if you don't have a supporting set of Scything Talons. Calling it an improvement if lucky, a detriment if average, and a wash if unlucky really distracts from the degrees of the improvement and the detriment. The detriment is a 23% loss on average, and the improvement is 37% on good luck.

The balance favours the Crushing Claws with a 23% overall increase in effectiveness at a cost of 16% more points.

So there is indeed doubt that Crushing Claws alone are worse than two pairs of Scything Talons against a cruising Land Raider. The doubt is quite simply that the increase in effectiveness far outweighs the slight decrease in reliability. That 25 points is not only worth it, but it's worth it if you consider that a Heavy Venom Cannon is also 25 points, with both to kick up the cost of the Carnifex 31%

The weighted value of a Carnifex with a single pair of Scything Talons is 4.15, for a 48% increase in combat effectiveness if you exchange them for Crushing Claws.

Personally I hope that what you say is true because my Carnifexes all have Stranglethorn Cannons and Scything Talons, and although that was originally an aesthetic choice on my part because I think the Crushing Claws are ugly and don't work with my army theme (fore-limbs guns or claws, mid-limbs Scything Talons), the math really doesn't agree.

Off-topic.
Regardng abbreviations, consider spending the extra fraction of a second writing out the names in full so that people don't have to decode your jargon and can just read English (and also help people find the thread in the search engine...).

Shep:

Please don't take this the wrong way, but unless you're assiduously taking detailed notes on the dice results you've been getting while play-testing I mean I respect your finely honed instinct for what "works", but the problem is that your evidence is basically anecdotal: basing conclusions on them is basically trusting that you are not only right, but also infallible.

If I was to post a battle-report as counter-anecdote, it would go no distance to falsifying your claims or proving my own. I myself am not infallible and don't claim to be. However, I am aware that people, that's us, are what you might call "weak inductive reasoners" who infer strong conclusions from insufficient evidence, and who do so successfully when the cost of doing so isn't onerous. What we need are "strong statistical reasoners" who infer only those conclusions that are warranted by the evidence, and who only do so successfully when the value of doing so far outweighs the success of the weak inductive reasoners.

My point is that we do not have thousands upon thousands of games under our collective belts, games that include out-of-the-box thinking, and that it seems, as per the usual strategy on the Internet, successful and respected players are asserting strong conclusions based on weak evidence, and considering that the difference is made up by confidence in their abilities (aka: "confirmation bias").

Something to consider about learning is making mistakes. Part of the problem that I see in your method, what I've seen and heard of it, is that you're trying to build a strong army and trying to refine a preconceived strategy. Because you consider yourself to be a good player, and haven't kept careful records of the luck you've been experiencing, and your strategy sound, you shift the problem to the Tyranid army rather than any shortcoming in your strategy.

I think you'd do well to start keeping careful notes of your games (all the dice rolls, etc), and to try what you would consider "sub-optimal" on paper so that you don't find your fine strategic sense strait-jacketed by fuzzy data and bias.

Incidentally, since I'm at work, could someone check to see if there's still a limit on the number of pairs of Crushing Claws a Carnifex can take? I don't have my codex memorized yet, so I don't recall it saying anywhere that you can't take two pairs, and I'm curious.

Give me 3 broods of 30 maxed out 'goyles for anti armor any day of the week. I've been wrecking high ap gunlines with them. Though the math doesn't support it, I'm Irish and I'll gladly go for luck any day of the week. Main problem then is no anti av14. But as far as points cost, those three broods at 240 pts each (even cheaper if you forgo toxins sacs at 210) are of comparable cost to the other 'fex heavy options and seem to be far more survivable if you screen at least 2 of the broods. I've been running parasite in the middle brood for reliable synapse. The rest of the army I just flood with cheap gaunts screening warriors. Occasionally mixing genestealers in with it. MAIN problem is I'm still trying desperately to decrease my movement and assault phase times though I suspect constant practice will lower those times considerably.

ED209:

Those red numbers are the expected value, or reliability, of the different options weighted by their potential.

A Carnifex with no close combat weaponry has:
A4+1 charging, for 5 attacks
An expected value of 0.71 attacking a cruising Land Raider.
Therefore: (5)(0.71) = 3.55 overall effectiveness vs LR

A Carnifex with a single pair of Scything Talons has:
A4+1 charging, for 5 attacks
An expected value of 0.83 attacking a cruising Land Raider.
Therefore: (5)(0.83) = 4.15 overall effectiveness vs LR

A Carnifex with two pairs of Scything Talons has:
A4+1 charging, for 5 attacks
An expected value of 1.29 attacking a cruising Land Raider.
Therefore: (5)(1.29) = 6.45 overall effectiveness vs LR

A Carnifex with one pair of Crushing Claws has:
A4+1 charging+D3 for 6-8 attacks
An expected value of 0.99 attacking a cruising Land Raider.
Therefore: (8)(.99) = 7.92 overall effectiveness vs LR

A Carnifex with one pair of Crushing Claws and one pair of Scything Talons has:
A4+1 charging+D3 for 6-8 attacks
An expected value of 1.16 attacking a cruising Land Raider.
Therefore: (8)(1.16) = 9.28 overall effectiveness vs LR

Let's take these numbers against a squad of Space Marines:

Carnifex w/o
5 attacks, 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound
2.5 hits, 2.08 wounds on average (or expected value)
Expected Value x Potential: 10.40
Expected Value + Potential: 7.08

Carnifex w/ST
5 attacks, 4+ to hit re-roll 1s, 2+ to wound
2.93 hits, 2.43 wounds on average (or expected value)
Expected Value x Potential: 12.15
Expected Value + Potential: 7.43

Carnifex w/STx2
5 attacks, 4+ to hit re-roll misses, 2+ to wound
3.75 hits, 3.11 wounds on average (or expected value)
Expected Value x Potential: 15.56
Expected Value + Potential: 8.11

Carnifex w/CC
6-8 attacks, 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound
3 hits, 2.49 wounds + 3.5 hits, 2.91 wounds + 4 hits, 3.32 wounds. Aggregate: 2.91 wounds on average
Expected Value x Potential: 23.28
Expected Value + Potential: [8.49, 9.91, 11.32] or 9.91 on average.

More attacks is better than fewer yet more reliable attacks. Ork players already know this.

fex can only take one pair unfortunately...

I quite like crushing claws on my tervigons, I'm with you on the upgrade being reasonable on carnifex if you are taking a HVC. That was really not an issue to me. the issue was trying to effectively suppress firepower while closing with venom cannons in game wasn't quite working. i don't need them to be railguns, but the number of HVCs you can field just seemed inadequate to keep my stuff a live long enough.

As to the new criticism being levied against my playtesting...

Ok, two posts ago, I was called a math junkie who just runs numbers, and doesn't actually generate real sample sets. now the problem with my play testing is that I am actually playing full games with real generated sample sets.

Probability can be predicted, statistical sets can actually be mapped to percentages, especially in a game as simplistic as warhammer. I have provided an actual legal imperial guard gunline list and shown everyone what the largest statistical percentage result is in regards to unsaved wounds caused to the tyranid army. The "better luck" and "worse luck" cascade away from that statistical package in exponentially less likely sets. In other words, its a bell curve.

In my math results, anything even close to the bell curve results in a significant defeat of the tyranid army, once you travel further away from the bell curve, you enter into events that are highly unlikely, and unimportant to test for.

Then, to satisfy the other element of list design and testing. I wrote various lists and challenged real life opponents with those lists. I didn't tell them what to shoot at, i didn't let them correct their mistakes, this opened the door for target priority latitude, and other generalship factors. I've played every deployment type and every mission objective. My very first attempts with nids we're to "suppress rather than destroy" enemy armor as I moved up. That isn't as "out of the box" as you think. It was a clear design goal if you just glance at the HVC profile (pun intended). It didn't work for me. I tried it until i was satisfied that it was insufficient. Then I built for points per wound efficiency and pure survivability and found more success. that was the hive guard/tervigon based list. I even pushed the survivability envelope to the extreme and managed to write a 2k list with SIXTY T6 wounds in it! It failed. Then I wrote specifically to crush IG, and I was capable of that with an all drop pod 6x zoanthrope, 1 deathleaper, 3x dakkafex, 4x warrior list. That was encouraging. But the list was hopelessly over-ran by land raider based aggressive armies. I have yet to line up my 60 genestealer/60 gargoyle list against anything. I have however done the evil math voodoo on it, it looks promising versus dedicated shooting gunlines, but armies with more flexibility/resiliency seem to really counter the non-frag grenade non-power weapon having genestealer/broodlord combinations. I will not walk away from the list concept until it has been played multiple times however, against multiple human opponents with different armies and playstyles as I agree that actually playing the game is as important as generating an average result through math.

I've been up and down all of the concepts that weren't just ridiculous, I have done due diligence with a calculator, and I have set up many games to test theories (and to account for LOS, terrain, and statistical clumpings that temporarily alter expected results). I have used truisms that I learned when playing orks for an entire year of tourney play (such as... charging vehicles with unarmored infantry models gets them exploded and flamed in short order)

If math isn't enough proof, and battle reports aren't sufficient either, and a combination of both is still insufficient. Then you are going to be waiting for quite some time, or you're just playing devil's advocate.... which is clearly getting more and more difficult as mine and other players testing results have come in.

Nurglitch, once again I feel like you're trying to turn this into a thought experiment. You nicely dodged Shep's question and point regarding game experience and even tried to make a case for why game experience can be a negative. As a rhetorician, I'll give you points for the effort.

However, the point remains that you're posting in a thread in the Battle Reports section of the site. This section is for sharing game experiences, whether the players in question are of the correct mindset to collect relevant data or not.

Shep: so are you saying that foot nids (hive guard/tervs/etc.) can't cut it against mech builds in general, or just that they have a major uphill battle against a guard/wolf gunline that goes first. How many armies can say that they are excited to see that across from them though? From the way you are talking, it sounds like nid players need to make a decision about what they want to be vulnerable to (gunline/hammernators/etc.) and hope to not see those at the table. Does that about sum it up?

dangerboy_61 wrote:Shep: so are you saying that foot nids (hive guard/tervs/etc.) can't cut it against mech builds in general, or just that they have a major uphill battle against a guard/wolf gunline that goes first. How many armies can say that they are excited to see that across from them though? From the way you are talking, it sounds like nid players need to make a decision about what they want to be vulnerable to (gunline/hammernators/etc.) and hope to not see those at the table. Does that about sum it up?

That's pretty much it....

The things I feel like it is safe to say, that won't later reveal themselves to be hyperbolic or just myopic, are the following.

If you are playing 2k points, and you are facing off against a gunline, you will VERY likely lose all 9 hive guard before the first turn is over. If your opponent chose to shoot at 3+ save T6 MCs instead of the hive guard, you can potentially lose three of them, prior to catalyst going off. If everything is screened by t-fex, then just the common number of lascannons in razorback spam and 3x vendetta lists will cause 5 of the 6 wounds needed to drop a t-fex, the last wound will certainly be stripped by the combined shooting of the rest of the army.

These are just some numbers, they don't represent a definitive "you lose against gunlines". But now we can venture into my opinion. In my opinion, losing hive guard and tervigons at that rate is something I don't think a nid player just gets to shrug off. Either your entire troops slots are stripped, or your three best anti-tank units are stripped. On the next round, you'll be facing that same shooting down again, which will, predictably, take another big bite out of your remaining army. We aren't talking about taking losses, we are talking about being tabled.

Can you seize the initiative? Yes, absolutely. Can you win first turn? Maybe. But with first turn, a mechanized gunline can deploy no further than 5" on table, robbing your hive guard of shots. Even if you chose to use onslaught to get that shot, then you've just traded in feel no pain and a run roll for the tervigons. Is it worth it? Probably. You also got to shoot with your HVCs if you took them or your rupture cannons if you took them. If you just went with catalyst, then you've got that online and the game improves quite a bit. In my opinion, with first turn, the matchup improves... but isn't anything above 50/50. Pure conjecture... I'll batrep it if I can get the time. Spearhead was manageable if a bit more difficult. The right IG army can pack in real tight in that back corner, but the nids won't step on themselves in deployment. Dawn of war, of course, against another shooting army, is a nightmare. Tervigons will not be threatening until the last third of the game, the hive guard have to hustle on and hope to make a game impact by the half way point... but at least the T-fexes can contribute.

And you mentioned 'mech builds' in your question. "Mech" as a design element is not a problem at all, you can have a very balanced matchup in all deployment types when versing mech armies with an aggressive or short range element. The tervigon/hive guard/t-fex list actually has a very comfortable matchup versus land raider armies. I was getting very promising results against speartip space marine and space wolf style lists. Pressing the issue on the land raiders to force them to commit with rupture cannons, screening tervigons from terminator charges, and then smothering beater units with mass termagants was working out very well. As I began using tervigons correctly (as in, you need a very good reason to make babies... just to do it isn't good enough) That matchup even got better to manage.

My problem, as a competitive tourney player, is that I own a fully painted IG army, I was hoping the tyranid codex would come with a take on all comers option for me to take to tourneys when I need to take a break from IG. But, as a gunline, the IG army just has smooth matchups, regardless of opponent. The mirror match can come down to who goes first, but I think I can live with that. With nids, I feel like, going first or second, dedicated gunlines with no points spent in CC upgrades has a major, nearly insurmountable advantage going first or second. That knocks nids down a peg in my opinion, because I enjoy a 50/50 versus gunlines with my already painted IG army. Like you wer asking, you could build nids a couple of ways to really stick it to gunlines, but those lists seem a lot more fragile and dare I say gimmicky. Running into a solidly built sturdy assault based list will be the end of that run.

I'm confusing a lot of people when I'm complaining about nids, because I am talking about playing against some seriously unfriendly face-melting opposition. The casual player or even semi-competitive game store regular doesn't have to worry about the two list archetypes I have been whining about. And if it weren't for front loaded obscenely shooty IG and space wolf armies, then this nid list would already be rising to the top of the charts.

tervigon with catalyst, onslaught, crushing claws, adrenal glands and toxin sacs
3x hive guard
3x hive guard
3x hive guard
15x termagants with devourers
16x termagants with devourers
tervigon with catalyst, onslaught, crushing claws, adrenal glands and toxin sacs
tervigon with catalyst, onslaught, crushing claws, adrenal glands and toxin sacs
tyrannofex with rupture cannon and cluster spines
tyrannofex with rupture cannon and cluster spines

So my problems might be different than most. I own IG so I am looking for at least an equivalent level of competitiveness, and I have to plan to face off against some really dominant shooters.

I am going to be buying a video camera very soon, and I will be changing all of my batreps over to video batreps. More and more I want to discuss the specifics of deployment before the games start, and more detail needs to be described about the events in game. Blackmoor's foot eldar and the shellacing I took from it will likely be my last text batrep.

Shep - do you think this list would be improved:

tervigon with catalyst, onslaught, crushing claws, adrenal glands and toxin sacs
3x hive guard
3x hive guard
3x hive guard
15x termagants with devourers
16x termagants with devourers
tervigon with catalyst, onslaught, crushing claws, adrenal glands and toxin sacs
tervigon with catalyst, onslaught, crushing claws, adrenal glands and toxin sacs
tyrannofex with rupture cannon and cluster spines
tyrannofex with rupture cannon and cluster spines

Down grade the devourers to deathspitters - saving 124 points and add Gargoyles. Combined - the gargoyles and gaunts can screen the MC's for a turn. Reducing gunline HW hits by half for a turn....

Shep wrote:[ ..stuff..

Interesting incites

@nurglitch:

In your latest analysis...

An expected value of 0.71 attacking a cruising Land Raider.


An expected value of 0.83 attacking a cruising Land Raider.


An expected value of 1.29 attacking a cruising Land Raider.

An expected value of 0.99 attacking a cruising Land Raider.

An expected value of 1.16 attacking a cruising Land Raider.

What are theses numbers? The expected value of what? You're multiplying it by the number of attacks so I assume it's some sort of value assigned based on chance to hit? But I can't figure out where it's coming from or what exactly is being calculated.

Could you fill me in on what this step is? I'm with you otherwise.

Edit: Just realized this looked more confrontational than I meant. I was just curious. I love numbers and math, just wanting to follow your logic.

@Danger-boy:

Shep: so are you saying that foot nids (hive guard/tervs/etc.) can't cut it against mech builds in general, or just that they have a major uphill battle against a guard/wolf gunline that goes first. How many armies can say that they are excited to see that across from them though? From the way you are talking, it sounds like nid players need to make a decision about what they want to be vulnerable to (gunline/hammernators/etc.) and hope to not see those at the table. Does that about sum it up?

That's kind of the idea, but here's the big issue with the way I see it. You'll never build an army that's super strong against everything. But it's all about meta-game calls. My Tzeentch Daemons are much stronger against IG/SW gunline than any Nid list I've been able to come up with. On the other hand, I'd just about roll over and die to Nob Bikerz and have an uphill fight against Lash chaos. The Nid lists I've been managing to come up with lately basically flip-flop those.

The problem is, the way IG and SW have shifted the competitive metagame around, I would be much more comfortable going to a tournament with an army that's weak against Nob Bikerz and Lash than one that's weak against mech IG and mech SW. The meching up of the meta has weakened Lash somewhat, and IG (and the Lash armies still around) have made Nob Bikerz almost a non-issue. The weaknesses that I see in the Nids are weaknesses against the armies I think are likely to be out in the most force at a tournament like Adepticon. It's not like I'm playing an army that rolls over and dies to double Seer Council and I hope not to play it...compare the odds of running into double Seer Council with the odds of running into IG with Chimera spam+Vendettas and various tanks, and I just don't like having an army that's hoping to dodge one of the most likely opponents (or at least my perception of what's likely to be around).

That's what I'm trying to get past with Nids, and failing. Not shoring up all weaknesses...but trying to shore up the weaknesses against the most likely armies. That's what frustrating to me. Shep may be in a slightly different boat, but I've gotten the feeling we're seeing things from the same perspective.

Nurglitch wrote:ED209:

Those red numbers are the expected value, or reliability, of the different options weighted by their potential.

A Carnifex with no close combat weaponry has:
A4+1 charging, for 5 attacks
An expected value of 0.71 attacking a cruising Land Raider.
Therefore: (5)(0.71) = 3.55 overall effectiveness vs LR

If i understand correctly, you multiply the expected number of penetrating hits (already including the number of attacks) by the number of attacks?
Doesn't that double account for the number of attacks?

I only post this here because it's a natural progression of what Shep has been testing, and basically my own "take" on his testing lists...

After some thought I modified the list I am testing on Saturday:

-HQ-

Hive Tyrant w/ Lashwhip-Bonesword, Scything Talons, Ancient Enemy, Life Leach, Paroxysm, Regeneration = 215

2 Tyrant Guard = 120

-Elites-

3 Zoanthropes = 180

3 Zoanthropes = 180

3 Hive Guard = 150

-Troops-

10 Termagaunts = 50

10 Termagaunts = 50

Tervigon w/ Catalyst, Onslaught, Toxin, Regeneration, Cluster Spines = 230

Tervigon w/ Catalyst, Onslaught, Toxin, Regeneration, Cluster Spines = 230

-Heavy Support-

Tyrannofex w/ Rupture Cannon, Regeneration, Thorax Swarm w/ Shreddershard Beatles, Cluster Spines = 295

Tyrannofex w/ Rupture Cannon, Regeneration, Thorax Swarm w/ Shreddershard Beatles, Cluster Spines = 295

Total = 1995

Basically I dropped the Venomthropes and a unit of Hive Guard to put 2 units of three Zoanthropes on the table. After a lot of reading describing the problems with spamming Hive Guard, I though it would be interesting to see what happens if you have a large contingent of Zoanthropes on the table.

For some reason, even though they can be insta-killed, I still have greater faith in the Zoanthropes survivability. I don't need a Gaunt screen to rely on cover saves with them, and their effective range is 24". If I cast Onslaught on them from the Tervigons that effective range could almost push 30". Plus the model is big enough that a unit of three should be able to give me cover to the Tyrannofexes.

Against aggressive armies I have a better chance of popping heavy transports with 10 str. 10 shots. And I have Ancient Enemy Poisoned Gaunts and a Hive Tyrant to do my own assault heavy lifting.

I still have regeneration on everything. At 1850, I would simply drop the regeneration.

Thoughts?

Nurglitch wrote:ED209:

Those red numbers are the expected value, or reliability, of the different options weighted by their potential.

A Carnifex with no close combat weaponry has:
A4+1 charging, for 5 attacks
An expected value of 0.71 attacking a cruising Land Raider.
Therefore: (5)(0.71) = 3.55 overall effectiveness vs LR

This is wrong math, the 0.71hit is the final result of average dice roll ,no mulitplie after.

Love to see how that list goes Mahu. And I agree on the Zoanthropes...I love them. My biggest issue with them is actually the anti-psyker stuff more than anything else. I'm a big fan of using them as moving cover. And the option to throw the blast around if there are no good hard armor targets.

I'm still questionable on the Tfexes...let me know if you feel like they earn their 300 point price tag.

And I agree on the Zoanthropes...I love them. My biggest issue with them is actually the anti-psyker stuff more than anything else. I'm a big fan of using them as moving cover. And the option to throw the blast around if there are no good hard armor targets.

It will be interesting, there is a lot of trade-offs there and my primary concern is with range and the idea that they can be insta-killed and wounded easier.

With 6 of them, I am less concerned about anti-psyker stuff. Another thing that put them in my radar besides their consistent armor saves, is the fact that I have greater Shadow of the Warp and Synapse coverage, which would help against Space Wolves.

I'm still questionable on the Tfexes...let me know if you feel like they earn their 300 point price tag.

In my previous playtesting, they haven't done well, but I was only running one, it will be interesting to see what two do.

Here is some math I am looking at concerning the trade off:

3 Hive Guard versus AV 12 = 6 Shots, 4 Hits, 1.32 Penetrate, .44 Wrecked or Destroyed

3 Zoeanthropes versus AV 12 = 3 Tests, 2.4 Shots, 1.6 Hit, 1.32 Penetrate, 0.65 Wrecked or Destroyed

3 Vendetta's shooting at a unit of 3 Hive Guard in cover = 9 Lascannon shots, 6.75 Hit, 5.6 Wounds, 2.8 Wounds caused after 4+ cover, 1 and a half dead Hive Guard

3 Vendetta's shooting at a unit of 3 Zoanthropes = 9 Lascannon shots, 6.75 Hit, 5.6 Wounds, 1.8 Wounds caused after 3+ save, 1 or 2 dead Zoanthropes

Hydra Squadron of 2 shooting at 3 Hive Guard in cover = 8 Autocannon Shots, 6 Hits, 3.09 Wounds, 1.54 wounds after cover

Hydra Squadron of 2 shooting at 3 Zoanthropes = 8 Autocannon Shots, 6 Hits, 4.99 Wounds, 1.64 wounds after saves

sirisaacnuton wrote:@nurglitch:

In your latest analysis...

An expected value of 0.71 attacking a cruising Land Raider.
An expected value of 0.83 attacking a cruising Land Raider.
An expected value of 1.29 attacking a cruising Land Raider.
An expected value of 0.99 attacking a cruising Land Raider.
An expected value of 1.16 attacking a cruising Land Raider.

What are theses numbers? The expected value of what? You're multiplying it by the number of attacks so I assume it's some sort of value assigned based on chance to hit? But I can't figure out where it's coming from or what exactly is being calculated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value

In probability theory and statistics, the expected value (or expectation value, or mathematical expectation, or mean, or first moment) of a random variable is the integral of the random variable with respect to its probability measure.

For discrete random variables this is equivalent to the probability-weighted sum of the possible values.

The term "expected value" can be misleading. It must not be confused with the "most probable value." The expected value is in general not a typical value that the random variable can take on. It is often helpful to interpret the expected value of a random variable as the long-run average value of the variable over many independent repetitions of an experiment.

The expected value may be intuitively understood by the law of large numbers: The expected value, when it exists, is almost surely the limit of the sample mean as sample size grows to infinity. The value may not be expected in the general sense — the "expected value" itself may be unlikely or even impossible (such as having 2.5 children), just like the sample mean. The expected value does not exist for all distributions, such as the Cauchy distribution.

It is possible to construct an expected value equal to the probability of an event by taking the expectation of an indicator function that is one if the event has occurred and zero otherwise. This relationship can be used to translate properties of expected values into properties of probabilities, e.g. using the law of large numbers to justify estimating probabilities by frequencies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ED209 wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:ED209:

Those red numbers are the expected value, or reliability, of the different options weighted by their potential.

A Carnifex with no close combat weaponry has:
A4+1 charging, for 5 attacks
An expected value of 0.71 attacking a cruising Land Raider.
Therefore: (5)(0.71) = 3.55 overall effectiveness vs LR

This is wrong math, the 0.71hit is the final result of average dice roll ,no mulitplie after.

That's what he's saying, the E(x) Expected value (read arithmetic mean of all probable results as sample size goes to infinity) is .71 he's multiplying that by the sample size (5) to get an "effectiveness" for the sample (5) of successes in attacking AV14.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahu wrote:

Here is some math I am looking at concerning the trade off:

3 Hive Guard versus AV 12 = 6 Shots, 4 Hits, 1.32 Penetrate, .44 Wrecked or Destroyed

3 Zoeanthropes versus AV 12 = 3 Tests, 2.4 Shots, 1.6 Hit, 1.32 Penetrate, 0.65 Wrecked or Destroyed

3 Vendetta's shooting at a unit of 3 Hive Guard in cover = 9 Lascannon shots, 6.75 Hit, 5.6 Wounds, 2.8 Wounds caused after 4+ cover, 1 and a half dead Hive Guard

3 Vendetta's shooting at a unit of 3 Zoanthropes = 9 Lascannon shots, 6.75 Hit, 5.6 Wounds, 1.8 Wounds caused after 3+ save, 1 or 2 dead Zoanthropes

Hydra Squadron of 2 shooting at 3 Hive Guard in cover = 8 Autocannon Shots, 6 Hits, 3.09 Wounds, 1.54 wounds after cover

Hydra Squadron of 2 shooting at 3 Zoanthropes = 8 Autocannon Shots, 6 Hits, 4.99 Wounds, 1.64 wounds after saves

I'm not seeing enough of a difference to justify spending points on Zoanthropes here. Now if you add in the blast, and ability to work on AV 14, It does change things.

I'm floored by Shep's results (That you simply cannot line up enough T6 wounds across from shooty-guard to hit their lines in numbers). With the Lack of ability to (reliably) manipulate the reserves game in the early turns (T2); Reserving your army (especially if you want to get into CC) appears to make targeting decisions even easier for your opponent.

I think you misunderstood me... I'm familiar with what an expectation value is, I was asking what that was an expectation value of. Number of hits? Number of pens? Number of wrecked/destroyed?

Since he then multiplied it by the number of attacks, my initial assumption was that it was the expectation value of something occurring per attack, but the numbers were far too big to be an expectation value of anything for one attack. So it seemed to be the expectation value for (say) 5 attacks with 2xST, or 6-8 attacks with 1xST, or something. But that's not something you would then multiply by the number of attacks again, as you're then double-counting the number of attacks. It skews the results toward more attacks to do that, thus inflating the perceived benefit of more attacks (i.e. Crushing Claws).

I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something, so I was asking what outcome's expectation value was being calculated in those lines.

I'm not seeing enough of a difference to justify spending points on Zoanthropes here. Now if you add in the blast, and ability to work on AV 14, It does change things.

Well, that is what I am figuring, it's a lateral shift against most AV 12 heavy Guard, but it is a positive shift if we are talking about Leman Russ chasis, Battlewagons, and Land Raiders.

Plus, it answers the question in the list, how do we deal with Jaws in a mostly foot based list.

Well, not exactly an ideal counter to Jaws. Jaws is 36", right? Put a guy in a Rhino and it seems like he wouldn't have too much trouble out-ranging the SitW while still getting decent shots on Tfexes (or something), and even out on foot in a squad (if the Rhino gets popped) it doesn't seem like the list has enough power to reach out and touch him quickly through a squad of ablative wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now if it's 24" it's not nearly as bad. Just can't remember off the top. Thought it was 36.

Jaws is 24".

Rugrud wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:ED209:

Those red numbers are the expected value, or reliability, of the different options weighted by their potential.

A Carnifex with no close combat weaponry has:
A4+1 charging, for 5 attacks
An expected value of 0.71 attacking a cruising Land Raider.
Therefore: (5)(0.71) = 3.55 overall effectiveness vs LR

If i understand correctly, you multiply the expected number of penetrating hits (already including the number of attacks) by the number of attacks?
Doesn't that double account for the number of attacks?

Yes, it does, and on purpose. That's why I'm saying that the expected value is weighted by the potential number of attacks. Think of the expected value as the expected value given the number of attacks and average luck, and then the potential as the number of attacks and good luck. So the attacks are counted twice because there's 1/3 of the time when the average can be expected, and there's the 1/3 of the time when you should get lucky. The final 1/3 is getting unlucky and as mentioned that is a wash.

I should have paid more attention in stats, but that seems almost like fuzzy math.

Nurglitch wrote:
Yes, it does, and on purpose. That's why I'm saying that the expected value is weighted by the potential number of attacks.

If you weight your expected value by the number of attacks, you're not generating the data you claim it's generating...namely, you're not generating an accurate picture of the benefits of the various configurations. We're discussing the utility of the extra attacks of the Crushing Claws vs. the other possible ccw configurations. If you weight the numbers by how many attacks are made, and then simply compare them based on which number is highest, you're coming up with an unrealistic view of the benefits of the claws. Obviously, the claws shine if the numbers are being weighted by the number of attacks generated, as that skews the results in favor of having more attacks (in other words, in favor of the claws).

For a fair comparison between the builds, one of two things should happen. Either generate the expectation value for a single attack, given the factors like no rerolls, rerolls on 1's, or all rerolls, and then multiply by the number of attacks. Or else generate the expectation value for the batch of attacks (exactly like you did), but then don't multiply by the number of attacks. By doing both, you're essentially looking at the expectation value for the number of attacks squared, which obviously increases in value per attack much more quickly than when you don't double-count the attacks.

Otherwise, one could just as easily make the argument the other way, against the crushing claws, by weighting the expectation value with the chance to hit with an attack. Weighting the hit chance instead of the number of attacks will cause the numbers to favor rerolls (so Scything Talons) over # of attacks (claws).

sirisaacnuton:

We are discussing the utility of the extra attacks of the Crushing Claws in comparison to the other possible configurations. If we limit our consideration to expected utility, then we're disregarding potentiality, which is rather important in a game where the number of attacks puts a hard and fast limit on the amount of damage a model can do.

Where we only consider the expected value without considering the maximum potential, then we get a skewed notion of the configuration's potential because we can expect 1/3 of the time to have good luck, 1/3 back luck, and 1/3 to roll average, or the expected value.

So basically by weighting the expected value by the potential, we are weighting the expected value by the probability of hitting with an attack.

It's basically:

Expected Value
EV = number of attacks x probability of hits

Potential Value
PV = number of attacks x probability of hits

Total Value
TV = EV x PV

A Carnifex with two pairs of Scything Talons vs Tactical Space Marines:

[((5 x 50%)+(5 x 50% x 50%))][(5)(100%)] = 18.75

A Carnifex with Crushing Claws vs Tactical Space Marines

[((6 x 50%)+(7 x 50%)+(8 x 50%))/3][(8)(100%)] = 28

And yes, as you say, of course the Crushing Claws shine when we consider the weighted expected value: that's why they're an upgrade! They cost 25pts: they should yield an improvement of at least 16% overall.

What I'm not on the same page as is the multiplication part of that. The expected value is just that...given the number of attacks and the odds of each one hitting, it gives the number of expected hits.

And the potential value, as you defined it, basically seems to be the maximum number of possible hits, in other words if every attack were to hit.

So in your first example there, you have an expectation value of 3.75 hits. I'm with you. You have a maximum potential value of 5 hits. I'm with you.

But then once you multiply those, you have a "total value" of 18.75 hits squared (that is, hits^2). This, to me, is not a meaningful value.

In the two comparisons you have there, the 2xtalons build has a higher expected value than the crushing claws. Which means in an infinite sample size, the talon build outperforms the crushing claws build. Sure, the claws can certainly kill more Marines than is possible for the talons to do, thanks to the higher attack number, but despite that chance the most probable outcome of the combat favors the talons. I just simply don't see what new information is gleaned when you multiply by the max value. I can't see what your "total value" part really reflects.

Maybe it can be illustrated with a simpler example. The expectation value on a d6 is 3.5. The maximum possible value is a 6. If I multiply the two, I get a value of 21. If I do the same procedure with a d20, I get an EV of 10.5, a max of 20, and the product of the two is 210.

But what do those numbers, 21 and 210, tell me about the statistics or probabilities of those dice? I understand what information is conveyed by the mean, max or min values, variances and standard deviations, etc etc. But not by multiplying the mean and the max value.

kaiservonhugal wrote:Shep - do you think this list would be improved:

tervigon with catalyst, onslaught, crushing claws, adrenal glands and toxin sacs
3x hive guard
3x hive guard
3x hive guard
15x termagants with devourers
16x termagants with devourers
tervigon with catalyst, onslaught, crushing claws, adrenal glands and toxin sacs
tervigon with catalyst, onslaught, crushing claws, adrenal glands and toxin sacs
tyrannofex with rupture cannon and cluster spines
tyrannofex with rupture cannon and cluster spines

Down grade the devourers to deathspitters - saving 124 points and add Gargoyles. Combined - the gargoyles and gaunts can screen the MC's for a turn. Reducing gunline HW hits by half for a turn....

I almost ran 2x10 termagants and some gargoyles, but i have no experience with gargoyles, and haven't really thought of a "mission" for them in my games. Thats on me, not the gargoyles... but if gargoyles and termagants in front of my tervigons and t-fexes give me an 'argument free' 4+ cover save, well then hot damn, that would be for sure a list upgrade. it would also send me back to the drawing board really quick because that is pretty big.

Argument free is most vital to me as i play a lot against people i don't know that really want to win. If my list becomes functional only when I have that 4+ cover, and i end up having to argue until I'm blue in the face about 51% obscured... then that just won't do.

And I think you meant fleshborers, not deathspitters right?

Thanks for that tech! i will be glueing a box of gargoyles together tonight, taking pics and setting up a poll this weekend.