As in a dice roller application for the itouch, iphone or other small handheld device.

The argument for it is that you can roll a few hundred dice and (depending on the quality) have all the hits and misses counted up within a second, making the game go far faster, an invaluable tool for Ork or Tyranid players. The downside is the potential to alter the code to have a disposition towards a higher number, which is enough to make any opponent wary, and I don't think the iphone owner would let you give the dice the floating test!

In tournament play especially, it could help speed games up. Perhaps the TO could supply non-rigged devices to each table?

I can recognise the appeal of dice (and they are fine when rolling ten dice or less), but technology has its attractions when you decide to shoot with four thirty man Boyz units. That's 240 shots, and far easier to roll on a good dice roller.

I think, to expedite play, we should simply figure the average statistical likely hood of an event happening, rounding down/up as appropriate. Then, each player could have a number of 'mulligans' to play. Each mulligan would essentially skew a result to statistical outliers (IE, I should have failed one save of 3 but I will mulligan to play my outlier so they all save). Imagine how fast games would go!

In short, no . I think rolling dice and waiting for the roll to end is part of the game. On the other hand, my friend had a program for scatter on his phone...so you could determine exact scatter angle without guessing where it points in relation to miniatures. I think that's fine, as it helps clear up ambiguities. Dice rolling programs though..eh...it seems to take away from the tabletop 'game' to me.

I am the friend of AgeofEgos that has the app. The scatter dice function works great but it gives you dice rolls that are right on average with no variation or odd dice rolling. So, if you can do mathhammer in your head you should be able to come up with the same dice rolls that the app does. So, even though I have an app I would not use it.

It is nice to have if you are trying to figure out if a unit is worth it by dice rolls when making up an army list. It does eliminate the dice rolling oddities and gives you a basic rolls basis upon the law of averages.

I'd have to say that I wouldn't like seeing someone use a Dice Rolling App in a real game.

YOU might be on the up and up, but would everyone with one be too?

Sure, people can use loaded dice too, but with an electronic version, I think the temptation would be high for many...

You mean you don't want to use it because it rolls statistically accurately, or does it go strictly by statistics?

I don't think most people have the technical know-how to hack their phone then hack the app. I mean, I've looked at the SDK for the iphone and there's no way I could be arsed to go through all that trouble just to win a game.

I don't play tournaments and I'm all for making the game as smooth as possible; seriously, there've been games with ork players where it takes them 15 minutes just to move not to mention the endless rolling of dice from horde fire/close combat.

It rolls statistically accurately 100% of the time. There is no odd rolls made by the app such as rolling five 1s in a single dice throw.

Never mind altering the code, dice roller apps are almost never truly fair. Most of them just use the default Random function of the language, and these are never any good. A proper dice roller would need its own random number generator code written from scratch, which is something few people without a degree in programming or maths can do.

Pipboy101 wrote:I rolls statistically accurately 100% of the time. There is no odd rolls made by the app such as rolling five 1s in a single dice throw.

This doesn't make sense. What's "statistically accurate" when it's at home? If it can't roll five 1s then the programme is deliberatly skewed to only produce results within a certain margin of probability, and outlying results are excluded. That simply doesn't reflect reality and is one good reason why you should use proper dice.

Computer programmes can't be genuinely random, they are only pseudorandom and rely on an algorithm to give the effect of being random. I've always thought of rolling dice as being an exciting part of the game so why anyone would want to do away with them is beyond me.

There's definitely code for an RNG out there though, possibly for the iphone.

Also, is the RNG function of the language really less accurate than chucking blocks of plastic around?

Pika_power wrote:There's definitely code for an RNG out there though, possibly for the iphone.

Also, is the RNG function of the language really less accurate than chucking blocks of plastic around?

Yeah, less random; computers use a set algorithm to define the range of randomization and then produce a result. The funny thing is that newer, faster computers are less random than older, slower ones. One guy actually wrote a bit of code to slow down the choosing of the number to make it more well, random. He found that by making the computer generate several thousand operations to produce one random number the final result better approached what would happen non-electronically.

All of that said; most scientists agree that basic RNGs are usually "random enough".

Now excuse me while I go drink several beers to clear that out of my head.

While I have no knowldege whatsoever of programming or how difficult it would be for people to do...I personally wouldn't like playing with a dice app just because part of the game is getting to roll buckets of dice and it would just take away from the game for me if dice were removed.

Although it would be easier for someone to have a doctored application for their electro-gizmo of choice, they could also just have a set of fixed dice.
If you don't 'trust' the person you're playing to use honest rulers, dice, codex (they could doctor the text if they're that bent on cheating), etc., you probably really don't want to play them in the first place.

Don't play against jackasses is a good rule of thumb.

lord_blackfang wrote: dice roller apps are almost never truly fair. Most of them just use the default Random function of the language, and these are never any good. .

Uhhhh what are you talking about?

I would definitely not play with this sort of thing. Rolling dice seems like a key part of the game experience to me. If you don't like rolling a lot of dice, don't take units that get tons of attacks. The scatter die one seems OK but probably still unnecessary.

I would not allow it. It takes the fun out of things!

just use a calculator: mines a sharp EL-531W you just press 2ndF then 7, it gives you options one of which is random dice and you just keep pressing enter, with my buddys we just use for rolling for hits wounds ect... but we use real dice for heroes and special wargear and such

I like my cube of dice. They aren't weighted or cheater dice. I just like to pick colors that suit my army, are easily legible, and are the right size (I like 12mm). I can roll a few around in my hand while waiting on my opponent or thinking. I like to put a little "english" on a critical roll, getting my whole body behind it and really rolling with a flourish. You can't do any of these things pushing a button on an iphone.

I debate how much faster an app would be anyway, since the player still has to plug in how many dice to roll and what he needs to hit/wound/save. I'm pretty quick picking up dice while announcing what I am rolling, picking out fails and counting successes. I suppose once you need to roll 30 plus dice it might be a little faster on an app, buy even so, you'll need to do it on the table for your opponent to witness as well, and how many folks want to leave an expensive piece of electronics laying on the table?

Place it on the table, tap the screen, pick up.

I wouldn't mind although I'd find it a little pretentious. Yes, I know you have a $400 phone. Excuse me while I roll my dice manually like the plebeian scum I am.

Lord of battles wrote:just use a calculator: mines a sharp EL-531W you just press 2ndF then 7, it gives you options one of which is random dice and you just keep pressing enter, with my buddys we just use for rolling for hits wounds ect... but we use real dice for heroes and special wargear and such

Mine's a Sharp EL-738. It really speeds up play.

Why am I really scared that GW will read this and make a Dicer Automatic 40K for one gazillion dollars...........

Pika_power wrote:As in a dice roller application for the itouch, iphone or other small handheld device.

The argument for it is that you can roll a few hundred dice and (depending on the quality) have all the hits and misses counted up within a second, making the game go far faster, an invaluable tool for Ork or Tyranid players. The downside is the potential to alter the code to have a disposition towards a higher number, which is enough to make any opponent wary, and I don't think the iphone owner would let you give the dice the floating test!

In tournament play especially, it could help speed games up. Perhaps the TO could supply non-rigged devices to each table?

I can recognise the appeal of dice (and they are fine when rolling ten dice or less), but technology has its attractions when you decide to shoot with four thirty man Boyz units. That's 240 shots, and far easier to roll on a good dice roller.

The problem with dice rolling apps is they can not roll "randomness" correctly. As strange as it may seem "random" is not as random as it looks. So I would be apposed to the program being used in a game I was using. I would only appose it because it may or may not alter the game in a way that may or not be favorable to one of us. I want the same conditions for both sides so I feel like there was nothing other then luck and stupidity for one of losing.

NO, NO, NO. I would not allow an app

What if I, as your opponent, would like to use your app also? It's only fair, and would be the only way I might be convinced you aren't running some kind of rigged program. Now you need to teach me how to use the app, and do you want someone else's grubby little paws on your screen?

I also think it's a little more involved than "Place it on the table, tap the screen, pick up."

I'm guessing here, but I figure it's more like -

Announce what you are rolling for to opponent, specifying how many attacks you have, what you need to roll, etc...
Pick up device from pocket, table, or wherever you keep it safe.
Plug in stats, number of dice, or whatever.
Place on table.
Tap screen.
Check results, making sure to let opponent also see results.
In the case of shooting, assault, vehicle penetration and damage, and anything else requiring multiple rolls, repeat above five steps.
Pick up device and return it to pocket, table, or wherever you keep it safe.

Again, I contend that I can roll a bunch of dice already on the table whilst telling my opponent what I am rolling for, remove the fails, reroll successes for wounds, armor penetration or whatever, and resolve everything as fast or faster than using an app. Only in cases of enormous amounts of dice would an app be potentially faster. In addition, how much time would you lose at the beginning of the game explaining to your opponent how your device works and demoing for him? I would certainly be wary of anything other than dice...

Well, they could always copy the R2D2 dice roller that came with the Star Wars Trival Pursuit game.

Now if you hate the idea of an app doing dice rolls, you could always have played against a guy that used the pop-o-matic off of a Trouble game.

"I need to roll twenty dice rolls for my bolters. HEHehe..."

Pop! "Two"
Pop! "Five"
Pop! "Six"
Pop! "Four"
Pop! "One"
Pop! "Two"
Pop! "Three"
Pop! "Five"
Pop! "Five"
Pop! "One"
etc...

OMFG! WTF! I would take a phone app over that

Pipboy101 wrote:Well, they could always copy the R2D2 dice roller that came with the Star Wars Trival Pursuit game.

Now you're speaking my language. bring 20 of those to a game and have at it. I think the randomized beeping they make; in tandem, is what madness sounds like.

I'm a traditionalist. I love the sound of rolling dice, or that feeling of picking up 40 dice to roll them.

I love how supersticion gets involved too. How its all in the flick of the wrist. And people don't like to pick up 1's that have been rolled previously to do their armour tests with.

The one thing I don't like is those stupid marble affect dice where you can't see whats rolled unless you're right on top of it. Or people rolling dice behind scenery and picking it up before their opponent can see the outcome. Its only a game, but play it fair and in the open!

Similarly you have to roll the scatter dice beside where its going to scatter from, that way you can get the direction right with no arguments.

Dice rant over. I had no idea I was so passionate about a 6 sided piece of plastic!

Proper gaming is analog only. Paper, pencils, dice, and books. I'll have none of your new-fangled dice-rolling apps, thank you very much.

It should be possible to create a relatively true random number generator. As long as both sides use it it should not represent a problem.

A cooler way to go at it though would be to create an actual 40k or warhammer app that lets you tell it how many dice you are rolling, what you have to get to succeed, and then roll the successful dice for the next step, to hit, to wound, cover/armour.

That would be a useful app.

I guess I'd allow it in a casual game, but physical dice work just fine. If it ain't brke, don't fix it.

/Wanders off to google RNG algorithms...

I wouldn't mind it, as long as it is one of those dice rollers that you can shake your iPhone to make it roll for you (and a good one - I've seen some bad ones).

I'd certainly rather use a dice roller over, say, a laser pointer.

If dice rolling programs were widely used someone would write a fixed one for cheats.

Pika_power wrote:The downside is the potential to alter the code to have a disposition towards a higher number, which is enough to make any opponent wary, and I don't think the iphone owner would let you give the dice the floating test!

While "loading" the virtual dice with biased results is possible, in most cases, requiring that opponent have the right to use the tool will stop most potential cheating.

If it consistently rolls high, then that's something which can be taken advantage of by armies with a lot of shots / attacks, as they will have more "good" rolls than their opponents.

But what's more interesting is if you can get the tool into a "stealth" bias mode, such that you can secretly have it generate a string of numbers that appear to be random, but have some positive bias, against a default string with a negative bias. This allows for a (provably) net neutral result, but a strong bias in favor of the player who knows the "stealth" mode.

And yes, I'm pretty sure I can make a stealth bias die rolling program...


As a counter to this, I've suggested that players be allowed to "take 6" for multiples of 6 rolls as a fixed set of results [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6], and only be required to roll the remainder. This speeds up large rolls tremendously, as your example of 240 shots would "take 6" for 40 of each result. While extremely fair, this takes a lot of luck out of the game, and making certain results automatic.

as someone who has written dice apps for various reasons here is my take and has a B.S. computer science.

1) computers are about the same randomness as real dice
2) making a program that scews the dice say by 6% (13.6% chance for a 1 and a 2 instead of 16.6) which statisticly is enough to make a big difference in warhammer is exceptionally easy. but exceptionally hard to detect by a person standing at the table without a knowlege of statitics and a calulator.
3) it only takes one person to know how to do it, and the iphone app store to spread it.


real dice as a casino surveillance operator i was trained on how to spot fakes and loads consequently how to make fakes and loads.
1) making a load that looks and acts like a true die is hard. assuming that the person looking has any idea at all what they are looking at.
2) loaded dice can be easily detected with your fingers if they are larger by spinning, or a glass of water if they are small. ( large dice spun between the fingers will gallop, small dice in water will fall to the same number almost every time, if they are not loaded will flip and spin more while falling)
3) as each individual dice has to be loaded or modified it can take considerable time to load a set of 36 dice for play.

Llamahead wrote:Why am I really scared that GW will read this and make a Dicer Automatic 40K for one gazillion dollars...........

And like all gaming products, you wouldn't HAVE to buy it...


But On Topic:

I would not allow it. It allows for too much possibility of cheating. Is your opponent going to show you the results every time as well? Who's to say he doesn't add in a couple extra dice just to skew the numbers in his favor a little more.

The only way I would consider it is if the device announced the results as well as showing them. And that it stated the goal in addition to number of dice being rolled. I want to here it say:

"12 dice being rolled"
"5 or 6 needed for success"
"Rolling"
"3 Successes"

Or sometihng like that.

Not a chance I'd allow it... ever.

These 'random dice generator' applications can never replace the true randomness of rolling dice. These applications only give a false impression of randomness. They are built and structured on mathematical algorithms that can never truly be random. The 'randomness' (as it's unfortunately referred to) is a calculated sequence of numbers within a pattern. Use it enough and the numbers will begin to repeat.

No I wouldn't I've seen it used and it produced an odd number of Crits when playing Infinity lol. It doesn't take much to roll 2 dice if your really that lazy sure why not.

I would actually prefer apps over real dice rolling as long as I'm allowed to use it too. So if it's rigged then I get the benefits too

lixulana wrote:2) loaded dice can be easily detected with your fingers if they are larger by spinning, or a glass of water if they are small.
3) as each individual dice has to be loaded or modified it can take considerable time to load a set of 36 dice for play.

Don't load all 36 - load 6. This gives a clear statistical advantage for slightly "lucky" results, but isn't so large that the opponent would notice a whole field of 6s.

Just a side note for everyone saying that dice are any more or less random than a good RNG algorithm... Dice, by definintion, do not generate quantum randomness, as the result of their interactions with the laws of physics....

Case in point: Practiced Rolling.

If dice were truly random, then this would not be a valid practice. Theoretically, you can calculate and predict the outcome of every dice roll with a certain load of data, including die position, height, etc.

As far as using an app goes, though, I'd be leery about it, but in casual play, I really wouldn't care... I'm a social gamer, usually, so the outcome rarely matters to me. That being said, if it were a tourney, I'd have to say "no", and they could borrow my dice....

As someone that has been having problems with getting my hands to work right recently, along with occasional bouts of cognitive 'duh' moments where simple things like counting up successes might get scrambled- using an app wouldnt just make the dice rolling easier for me, and less embarassing if Im having a shaky day- but it would also help me enjoy the game more instead of obsessing about not screwing up on the number of hits and wounds.

Seriously, not everyone is out to cheat. And its far easier to cheat real dice- people have done it for centuries. But if theres something that can make the game easier and more enjoyable- are you really going to quibble that an app is like .0432% less accurate than rolling real dice?

And another point- Ive never had anyone fumble roll an iphone or laptop into my ranks of minis and break anything. Cant say the same for regular dice.

Mistress of minis wrote:
And another point- Ive never had anyone fumble roll an iphone or laptop into my ranks of minis and break anything. Cant say the same for regular dice.

I saw an iPhone fall onto 2 of the new Space Hulk Terminators with amazing paintjobs. Neither side won, but the phone didn't need days of repair.

Ironically, the guy was taking a picture of how awesome they were.

No, not because I dont trust the guy but dice is part of the game.

Im sure there would be a way to fiddle with the coding to get the results you wanted at the time. SO No.

but it is so cool to pick up 60-100 die, it just feels so bad ass.

And no its not ok, because what if the program always uses the correct statistical calculation with no variation, then you would never do better than expected or worse than expected.

privateer4hire wrote:Although it would be easier for someone to have a doctored application for their electro-gizmo of choice, they could also just have a set of fixed dice.
If you don't 'trust' the person you're playing to use honest rulers, dice, codex (they could doctor the text if they're that bent on cheating), etc., you probably really don't want to play them in the first place.

Don't play against jackasses is a good rule of thumb.

QFT

Random Number generators are very random in this day and age. Using something like the Mersenne twister as the algorithm, you could simulate die rolls billions of times before any semblance of pattern would emerge. RNGs are 'good enough' that you will not be able to tell the difference. And any real die rolling program won't alter outlier data or force probabilities.

For example from the Mersenne twister (10000 rolls)
1: 1641
2: 1701
3: 1630
4: 1735
5: 1659
6: 1634
Which is very evenly distributed.

Rolling actual dice is far from random itself, and subject to the rules of physics as you release the die. In fact most 12mm wargaming dice favor the higher numbers on the die because they aren't balanced (the sides with 4, 5, and 6 are lighter than the other 3). Roll them enough times and you will start to see more 6's than 1's.

Cheating with a RNG or weighted dice shouldn't make a difference, if you can't trust your opponent, then you can't trust them, and shouldn't play them, they will find ways to cheat with their iphone or weighted dice regardless.

The only 'real' reasons not to use dice is for the 'feel' of the tabletop game - Which I respect. I take my netbook and my TouchPro to all my 40K games, but I use balanced casino dice for all rolls, even though I have die rollers available to me on both my electronics. I prefer seeing dice bounce on the table and finally settle on the result.

Its funny, people play video games all day that use similar algorithms, but never stop to complain about the randomness because its built into the games engine.

You know, in the world of profiling(like for legal matters) the people that often object to something the loudest- think everyone has done it because they've done it- or would do it themselves in the right situation.

Take insecure egos, and awkward social skills(generalization) mix in competition, and our socities poor acceptance of not winning- and people start doing stupid things. Sort of a Jekyl and Hyde thing.

Thats gonna happen regardless of how the random factors are generated.

Yup. Take dice for instance: If someone brings loaded dice to the game, why does it matter? Are you so anal-retentive asperger-spectrum that you only use your own dice? There's no point in using two sets of dice.

If the dice roller is statistically accurate, no. I think dice wackiness is a big part of wargaming.

Nope, Proper Dice only for me.

Wow, you guys take your toy soldiers very seriously.

I'd probably let them use it. It all depends on how they use it really, but if we can't even agree on a semi-random number generator at the start of the game, I don't think we're going to enjoy ourselves, are we.

I see this kind of 'anti-cheating' paranoia stuff tossed around so frequently online that it really makes me wonder if my mentality of gaming is completely removed from most gamers.

While I personally really enjoy rolling dice in my games, if my opponent wanted to use a dice rolling app and was willing to allow me to use it on my rolls as well (which is only fair, even though I'd likely never actually take him up on it and use it during the game), then why the heck should I, or anyone else try to deny them from using a tool that would help them enjoy their hobby more?


IMHO, the idea of worrying about whether or not someone may be cheating you, and then putting actions in place to combat this fear, is BY FAR, a much worse quality in gaming than actual cheaters cheating.

I mean, if someone really wants to cheat, then not letting them use a dice-rolling app isn't going to stop them. They're going to alter their dice, learn how to roll funny, cheat their range measurements, fudge their models when you're not looking, etc, etc, etc.

There a thousand ways to cheat in this hobby, but at the end of the day if someone beats you by cheating, so what? Even in the hardest hardcore tournaments, the prizes are almost always just MORE product for the game. So at the end of the day really what have you lost if you've lost a game to purported 'cheater'? Not much.

So IMHO, if a cheater wants to beat me with cheating, then by all means let him go ahead and do it. Congratulations, he's won a game of 40K and I've lost a game of 40K...I still go home and enjoy my life.

In fact, I'll even play that cheater over and over again, losing every time, but I'll continue to struggle like the epic generals in stories vastly outnumbered and outgunned, but knowing that when I do pull off a win, the glory will be all the greater!


Now, I'm not saying I want to play against cheaters, rather far from it. I love to play balanced, tight games and I always want to win. But I'll be damned if I let the idea that someone may be cheating creep into my head and start to ruin my hobby experience...I don't care how high the stakes of the game are.

The moment I start to think in the middle of a game 'hey, I wonder if this guy is cheating me with loaded dice' is the day I personally feel I need to put away my miniatures and get another hobby because I've lost sight of what I'm actually supposed to be doing with this hobby, which is having fun playing a game.


Who knows, maybe I've been cheated in the past and maybe I'll end up being cheated in the future but I will never, ever even consider for one moment that my opponent might be cheating me and let it ruin my game. If that's the level they need to sink to in order to win a game of Toy Soldiers, then god-bless them.

But for me, I'm just going to keep playing my game and enjoying myself and doing the best I can within the things I can actually control in order to win my game.


So yeah, as far as I'm concerned, bring on those dice rolling apps, or anything else you want to use that makes your hobby more enjoyable! I'll keep rolling my dice, but whatever floats your boat is fine with me.

Nope, nope, and nope again.

Nurglitch wrote:

Lord of battles wrote:just use a calculator: mines a sharp EL-531W you just press 2ndF then 7, it gives you options one of which is random dice and you just keep pressing enter, with my buddys we just use for rolling for hits wounds ect... but we use real dice for heroes and special wargear and such

Mine's a Sharp EL-738. It really speeds up play.

So, how does it speed things up for an IG player that needs to roll shooting for a merged platoon using First Rank Second Rank within rapid fire range? You know, when you get 90 or so shots just with lasguns..............

don_mondo wrote:Nope, nope, and nope again.

Nurglitch wrote:

Lord of battles wrote:just use a calculator: mines a sharp EL-531W you just press 2ndF then 7, it gives you options one of which is random dice and you just keep pressing enter, with my buddys we just use for rolling for hits wounds ect... but we use real dice for heroes and special wargear and such

Mine's a Sharp EL-738. It really speeds up play.

So, how does it speed things up for an IG player that needs to roll shooting for a merged platoon using First Rank Second Rank within rapid fire range? You know, when you get 90 or so shots just with lasguns..............

That's when you use a decent app that allows you to select the number of dice rolled and gives you how many times each number showed up.

the dice gods HIGHLY disapprove of dice rolling apps. I wouldn't let my opponent use it I personally think Ipods, pads whatever are dumb and I dont want to be held responsible if their gadget breaks during our game. Plus with what other posters have said theres gonna be someone out there that will "hack" it to make it roll dice in your favor. Besides you cant call yourself a wargamer without a big pouch of dice that you constantly have blessed by your groups Elder and or store owner (it helps if your store owner looks like Gandalf).

TakeABow wrote:

Rolling actual dice is far from random itself, and subject to the rules of physics as you release the die. In fact most 12mm wargaming dice favor the higher numbers on the die because they aren't balanced (the sides with 4, 5, and 6 are lighter than the other 3). Roll them enough times and you will start to see more 6's than 1's.

I used to think that too, but it has actually been shown to be untrue, with the opposite actually happening. The reason being that the 1's side has higher rotational velocity when at the bottom than at the top, which combined with its increased weight relative to the 6 tends to pull it back towards the top. This is largely why casino dice have sharp edges to make the energy cost of rolling over again much higher, and do not drill out the pips to keep each side much closer in weight.

There was an article on Dakka about this a little bit ago, and quite a few others online. Granted, how much has been shown with great statistics is debatable, and I am usually quite willing to discount statistical studies anyway. As a good rule of thumb though, if Casinos require their dice a particular way, I would say the millions of dollars they have at stake are making a convincing argument.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

lixulana wrote:2) loaded dice can be easily detected with your fingers if they are larger by spinning, or a glass of water if they are small.
3) as each individual dice has to be loaded or modified it can take considerable time to load a set of 36 dice for play.

Don't load all 36 - load 6. This gives a clear statistical advantage for slightly "lucky" results, but isn't so large that the opponent would notice a whole field of 6s.

in the course of what you use in warhammer gaffing the dice would be more effective and less detectable than a load.

but it still represents the simple fact of changing the probabilities from 16.6 to maybe 13-14% for a 1/2/3.

but buying a cube of 36 dice and doing a statistal analysis of the dice from the cube you might be able to find 3-6 that are gaffed from the factory to roll higher or lower due to a manufacters defect.


casinos use cubes with square corners because its easier to detect a square than a rounded edge for a human being specifically the box man.
second it makes micing the dice with a micrometer an exact science as all three directions and every place on all three sides is exactly the same measurement.
the dice are clear to make drilling easier to detect.
the pips are a special plastic that has exactly the same density as the rest of the cube which is a different kind of plastic
each set of dice is numbered so the dice set of 5 can not be seperated
the list of what casinos do goes on and on.

besically it breaks down to casinos go to all this trouble so they dont get cheated because they are already going to win so they dont care about making it more in their favor than it already is.

I'm against the app, unless there is a physical reason for it. Frankly rolling buckets of dice are an integral part of the culture and ambiance of the game.

My preferred dice rolling app......is dice.

As long as they allowed me to use it too, or even just offered, we'd be fine

So for all you people saying that since its a computer it won't be 100% random...

Do you all own only casino dice and make sure to roll them on a flat surface, while bouncing them off the opposite wall? (like a craps table?)

Cause if you don't do that, then you aren't being 100% random either.

Tbh I wouldn't mind a dice rolling app if it was even 95% accurately random.
People breaking out there small, extra large, rounded corners dice just makes me want to call cheater.

Btw, whoever had the genius idea of making a extra large scatter die should be drug out into the street and beaten.

I wouldn't use a dice rolling app. If I wanted to play a computer game, I would.

Khornholio wrote:I wouldn't use a dice rolling app. If I wanted to play a computer game, I would.

Well yeah, of course Brock Samson would use real dice.

I'm actually writing a 40K dice roller app for the iPhone.

I plan on using it, and distributing it for free (or cheap). If someone really wants to go through the trouble of jailbreaking their Iphone and modifying the code, then I guess they care more about winning than most people do.

Obviously nobody would use it in a tournament, but I'm confident there's an audience for it for casual games.

Out of curiosity I wrote a quick dice simulator (in Java) just to see how it performs...

First of all,from Java Documentation for random:

Returned values are chosen pseudorandomly with (approximately) uniform distribution

And here the results!!!

Roll 10 dice (3 tests):

Result: 1 - 4 - 40.0%
Result: 2 - 1 - 10.0%
Result: 3 - 0 - 0.0%
Result: 4 - 4 - 40.0%
Result: 5 - 0 - 0.0%
Result: 6 - 1 - 10.0%
Doubles: 2
Longest sequence: 2

Result: 1 - 3 - 30.0%
Result: 2 - 1 - 10.0%
Result: 3 - 2 - 20.0%
Result: 4 - 2 - 20.0%
Result: 5 - 0 - 0.0%
Result: 6 - 2 - 20.0%
Doubles: 1
Longest sequence: 2

Result: 1 - 0 - 0.0%
Result: 2 - 3 - 30.0%
Result: 3 - 4 - 40.0%
Result: 4 - 1 - 10.0%
Result: 5 - 0 - 0.0%
Result: 6 - 2 - 20.0%
Doubles: 2
Longest sequence: 2

Rolling 100:

Result: 1 - 18 - 18.0%
Result: 2 - 22 - 22.0%
Result: 3 - 13 - 13.0%
Result: 4 - 13 - 13.0%
Result: 5 - 16 - 16.0%
Result: 6 - 18 - 18.0%
Doubles: 10
Longest sequence: 3

Result: 1 - 13 - 13.0%
Result: 2 - 17 - 17.0%
Result: 3 - 20 - 20.0%
Result: 4 - 16 - 16.0%
Result: 5 - 16 - 16.0%
Result: 6 - 18 - 18.0%
Doubles: 22
Longest sequence: 5

Result: 1 - 15 - 15.0%
Result: 2 - 17 - 17.0%
Result: 3 - 14 - 14.0%
Result: 4 - 24 - 24.0%
Result: 5 - 10 - 10.0%
Result: 6 - 20 - 20.0%
Doubles: 12
Longest sequence: 4

Rolling 38 (random non-10power number)

Result: 1 - 8 - 21.052631578947366%
Result: 2 - 10 - 26.31578947368421%
Result: 3 - 8 - 21.052631578947366%
Result: 4 - 4 - 10.526315789473683%
Result: 5 - 5 - 13.157894736842104%
Result: 6 - 3 - 7.894736842105263%
Doubles: 6
Longest sequence: 3

Result: 1 - 9 - 23.684210526315788%
Result: 2 - 4 - 10.526315789473683%
Result: 3 - 6 - 15.789473684210526%
Result: 4 - 2 - 5.263157894736842%
Result: 5 - 8 - 21.052631578947366%
Result: 6 - 9 - 23.684210526315788%
Doubles: 5
Longest sequence: 3

Result: 1 - 5 - 13.157894736842104%
Result: 2 - 4 - 10.526315789473683%
Result: 3 - 6 - 15.789473684210526%
Result: 4 - 5 - 13.157894736842104%
Result: 5 - 5 - 13.157894736842104%
Result: 6 - 13 - 34.21052631578947%
Doubles: 10
Longest sequence: 2


Explanation:

Doubles = number of pairs in the sequence (i.e 1 2 3 3 3 4) = 2 pairs
Longest sequence= longest sequence of equal numbers (i.e. 1 2 3 4 4 4 4 4 5 6) = 5

Bye,

I would not allow a die rolling app for several reasons.

The first and most obvious reason is that I believe it’s relatively easy to hack a die rolling app and disseminate such an app through a group of friends… especially in preparation for a tournament. The code behind of these apps is not complex and given a bit of time I’m certain that I (I’m a professional web developer) would have little trouble modifying the app. If I can do it, others can do it.

The second and larger reason is practical. While it may seem as if it speeds up the game, I doubt it actually would. Image, for example, a 10-man tactical marine squad with a melta gun, flamer, sergeant with plasma pistol, an attached special character with a bolt pistol and BS 5. I tend to think the prospect of ACTUALLY inputting that information is time consuming and prone to error. What’s more, I’m not really interested in having my opponent make adjustments to the app info between EVERY squad and vehicle that fires and after every casualty he takes.

From a practical perspective, actual die rolling is far easier.

Lastly, I believe it is easier to cheat through the use of a device similar to an iphone by simply adding dice without an opponent knowing. This could happen with regular dice as well but, if an opponent is supposed to roll 30 dice and he states “20 hits” but has 14 dice sitting in his pile of misses, I can identify and address such an issue. Unless I watch my opponent input his number of dice to be rolled every time (something I’m not interested in doing across a 4’ table”) it’s far too east to slip additional dice in and not get caught.

Dice rolling apps are an answer to a problem than never existed.

yakface wrote:
I see this kind of 'anti-cheating' paranoia stuff tossed around so frequently online that it really makes me wonder if my mentality of gaming is completely removed from most gamers.

While I personally really enjoy rolling dice in my games, if my opponent wanted to use a dice rolling app and was willing to allow me to use it on my rolls as well (which is only fair, even though I'd likely never actually take him up on it and use it during the game), then why the heck should I, or anyone else try to deny them from using a tool that would help them enjoy their hobby more?


IMHO, the idea of worrying about whether or not someone may be cheating you, and then putting actions in place to combat this fear, is BY FAR, a much worse quality in gaming than actual cheaters cheating.

I mean, if someone really wants to cheat, then not letting them use a dice-rolling app isn't going to stop them. They're going to alter their dice, learn how to roll funny, cheat their range measurements, fudge their models when you're not looking, etc, etc, etc.

There a thousand ways to cheat in this hobby, but at the end of the day if someone beats you by cheating, so what? Even in the hardest hardcore tournaments, the prizes are almost always just MORE product for the game. So at the end of the day really what have you lost if you've lost a game to purported 'cheater'? Not much.

So IMHO, if a cheater wants to beat me with cheating, then by all means let him go ahead and do it. Congratulations, he's won a game of 40K and I've lost a game of 40K...I still go home and enjoy my life.

In fact, I'll even play that cheater over and over again, losing every time, but I'll continue to struggle like the epic generals in stories vastly outnumbered and outgunned, but knowing that when I do pull off a win, the glory will be all the greater!


Now, I'm not saying I want to play against cheaters, rather far from it. I love to play balanced, tight games and I always want to win. But I'll be damned if I let the idea that someone may be cheating creep into my head and start to ruin my hobby experience...I don't care how high the stakes of the game are.

The moment I start to think in the middle of a game 'hey, I wonder if this guy is cheating me with loaded dice' is the day I personally feel I need to put away my miniatures and get another hobby because I've lost sight of what I'm actually supposed to be doing with this hobby, which is having fun playing a game.


Who knows, maybe I've been cheated in the past and maybe I'll end up being cheated in the future but I will never, ever even consider for one moment that my opponent might be cheating me and let it ruin my game. If that's the level they need to sink to in order to win a game of Toy Soldiers, then god-bless them.

But for me, I'm just going to keep playing my game and enjoying myself and doing the best I can within the things I can actually control in order to win my game.


So yeah, as far as I'm concerned, bring on those dice rolling apps, or anything else you want to use that makes your hobby more enjoyable! I'll keep rolling my dice, but whatever floats your boat is fine with me.

QFET (E = Extreme, that's how true it is)

The game is about Dice.

If you don't want to do what you have to to paly the game, then you might as well just point at them with a stick and make the pew pew noises and drive around with the little tanks.

Roll the darn dice, call it a day. Some tool that would go to that extreme would just as soon play the game on a computer, because the minis are too inconvenient to buy.

Mini games aren't for you, then. go play checkers.

Grot 6 wrote:The game is about Dice.

If you don't want to do what you have to to paly the game, then you might as well just point at them with a stick and make the pew pew noises and drive around with the little tanks.

Roll the darn dice, call it a day. Some tool that would go to that extreme would just as soon play the game on a computer, because the minis are too inconvenient to buy.

Mini games aren't for you, then. go play checkers.

So you are saying people that want to use dice apps are "tools" and would rather play it on computer? Pretty harsh generalization there. So because my friend wants to use a dice app in DnD we should kick him out and tell him to go play it on the computer (or go play checkers).

At first I thought this thread was kind of funny but now it's just another sad example of people ruining other's fun for no reason.

No.

Die rolling apps are not truly random and can be modified by cheaters.

Kirika wrote:No.

Die rolling apps are not truly random and can be modified by cheaters.

See all the previous posts about non-casino dice and computer generated numbers please.

I figure if somebody wants to try out their new toy (app) then by all means.

But really, the feel and sound of handfuls of dice are an integral part of the game, for me. I'd miss it. No speakerphone enabled app is going to sound like those 20 d6s hitting the table!

Also with a dice bag, you're never screwed when the batteries die in the middle of a tourney.

Pipboy101 wrote:Well, they could always copy the R2D2 dice roller that came with the Star Wars Trival Pursuit game.

Now if you hate the idea of an app doing dice rolls, you could always have played against a guy that used the pop-o-matic off of a Trouble game.

"I need to roll twenty dice rolls for my bolters. HEHehe..."

Pop! "Two"
Pop! "Five"
Pop! "Six"
Pop! "Four"
Pop! "One"
Pop! "Two"
Pop! "Three"
Pop! "Five"
Pop! "Five"
Pop! "One"
etc...

OMFG! WTF! I would take a phone app over that

You sir have just won the Internet.
Fell off my chair laughing.
I am going to do this in my next game.
Thankyou.
As for the topic. KEEP DICE.

If you want to play a computer game, play a computer game. If you want to play a tabletop game play a table top games.

Either way I think cell phones should be banned from the play area, to allow people to focus on the game.

CrazyThang wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:The game is about Dice.

If you don't want to do what you have to to paly the game, then you might as well just point at them with a stick and make the pew pew noises and drive around with the little tanks.

Roll the darn dice, call it a day. Some tool that would go to that extreme would just as soon play the game on a computer, because the minis are too inconvenient to buy.

Mini games aren't for you, then. go play checkers.

So you are saying people that want to use dice apps are "tools" and would rather play it on computer? Pretty harsh generalization there. So because my friend wants to use a dice app in DnD we should kick him out and tell him to go play it on the computer (or go play checkers).

At first I thought this thread was kind of funny but now it's just another sad example of people ruining other's fun for no reason.

Think what you want to, I know what I wrote, and no where in my post did I mention your "Friend".

How do you see insisting on playing a dice game with dice is ruining someone else fun?

By the Way since you want to ride that train, I recently saw a "New and Improved" group of people playing a game of D and D game run strictly with computers. Was that D and D? NO. That was a bunch of cats sitting around looking at screens.... PLAYING A VIDEO GAME.

(and for the record, 4th edition is not Dungeons and Dragons, anymore. I don't know what it is, but is isn't the Dungeons and Dragons.)

Thier interaction was about as enjoyable to watch as watching a LAN party, so before you come in here lambasting someone you need to step off and keep your cheap potshot to yourself.

The game is about dice. Dice came with the game, you didn't get some highspeed CD/DVD/computer in your box of minis, you got ...dice.

It's bad enough that we have to even put up with people pulling out thier cell phones to talk to some other fool on the other end about absolutly nothing mid turn, telling you to "Hold on a minute...". NOW we get someone who brings in thier coveted iphone or whatever and throws it down on the table and insists that his device is going to give a random roll, and that you can trust his win when tries to tell you that all of his rolls were above ground, and absolutly positively legit?

Number 1, You are rude and obnoxious if you pull a phone out in mid turn and tell me to, "Hold on a minute, I have to take this.." thereby screwing up the whole turn sequence, your concentration, and thereby the game. (yeah, that is a real thing that has happened)

Number 2, You are imposing some completly different element to a game that is already been established in a setting where people interact with dice, (the dice being the unifying factor.)

Number 3, the wins won like this are tainted, however and whatever universe you live in for the simple fact that you threw in an element of uncertanty in the device itself.
(How do I know that he didn't adjust the device givng his "rolls" a 2% increase in the results, or that his "Rolls" were absolutly random?)

You pull out a high speed computer do hicky and all of the sudden you have thrown a completly different dynamic into the game. It isn't a tabletop minis game, anymore. Its a computer game.

I see it as someone who pulls out something foreign to the game and starts using it, therby leaving everyone standing around with both a WTF look on thier face, but even worse, to wonder if the results coming out of the device are even legitimate.
Either way You are IMPOSING something that wasn't and isn't part of the metagame. You are pushing something on people that they were not even expecting, then you can sit there, win with the thing and see the sour grapes you sow with your game group as people start either getting one for themselves, or they leave to go find another group.

Or...
The third alternative comes with a face full of fist, your device being thrown at the nearest wall and impending violence and doom.


All in all though, the whole gaming dynamic is forever changed and your going to see a radical change for the worse in your game group. If it stays together, great, bully on them, but it still isn't a game with dice and miniatures anymore...

It is a computer game, played on the table with miniatures.

might as well be a LAN party.

Hmm, I like using dice but if my opponent wanted to use an app I guess I wouldn't object. I like the idea of the app saying x to hit, x to wound, x to save but the example posted about various weapons and values would be a problem. Here's another with my vet IG. Regular sarge with pistol, 3 plasma, 4 lasgun, and an AC. Different strengths as well as number of hits.

I certainly hope GW doesn't get this in their head to make a random generator.

I have one of the applications for my phone but I only plan to use the scatter part of it as you only need to get your opponent to place it anywhere near the target unit (by getting them to place it in any direction they wish you can avoid being called a cheat) then touch the screen. A lot easier to sort out where the scatter goes...

Mick

The problem with a dice rolling program is that it's just as easy to write a loaded one as it is to write an unloaded one.

I'm going to guess that using the default random number generator on an iPod ends up with statistical consistency on par with custom Chessex dice. A person could probably get good statistical consistency if they knew what they were doing and waded through all of the nice randomness metrics and good generator systems. But I have no confidence that Jo or Joe Hacker who's paid out $100 for an Apple license is going to bother to look up how to generate random numbers in a nice manner. And if you were concerned that the code was bad, how could you even tell?

I think there'd be a more compelling argument for dice rolling applications for something like Battletech, but the Battletech programs also tend to be all-in-one dice rolling and damage application programs. Otherwise, dice rollers are just too much hassle compared to bringing a few bags of dice.

Grot 6 wrote:The game is about Dice.

s.

I thought the game was about the miniatures?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kirika wrote:No.

Die rolling apps are not truly random and can be modified by cheaters.

Dice rolling apps are for all intents and purposes random. You are obviously not a math or computer science major. All the random number generators in major computer languages are random as far as a human being can tell. While obviously based on an algorithm the results do approximate the randomness of rolling dice.

Now to your other point. And this is really the problem but not just that they can be modified but you do not know who made them in the first place. So no I would not allow someone to use their own random number generator. Mostly because I think it would take longer than just rolling and secondly because I wouldn't trust someone I didn't know not to be cheating. Of course they could just use loaded dice

brettz123 wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:The game is about Dice.

s.

I thought the game was about the miniatures?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kirika wrote:No.

Die rolling apps are not truly random and can be modified by cheaters.

Dice rolling apps are for all intents and purposes random. You are obviously not a math or computer science major. All the random number generators in major computer languages are random as far as a human being can tell. While obviously based on an algorithm the results do approximate the randomness of rolling dice.

Now to your other point. And this is really the problem but not just that they can be modified but you do not know who made them in the first place. So no I would not allow someone to use their own random number generator. Mostly because I think it would take longer than just rolling and secondly because I wouldn't trust someone I didn't know not to be cheating. Of course they could just use loaded dice

Thats what you get for thinking.
As I said, add a 2% to the variable and call it a day see how that does ya.

As long as everyone used the same app, than yes.

No, I wouldn’t want one to be used in any game I was playing. Not because of the possibility of someone cheating by messing about with the application. But because it’s more fun seeing yours opponent face as he rolls the complete opposite to what they wants, or see them praying to the dice gods for that double six they need to win the game. Most games you play that have miniatures that have taken you hours/days/months or years to paint, should use dice to play imo.

Grot 6 wrote:

CrazyThang wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:The game is about Dice.

If you don't want to do what you have to to paly the game, then you might as well just point at them with a stick and make the pew pew noises and drive around with the little tanks.

Roll the darn dice, call it a day. Some tool that would go to that extreme would just as soon play the game on a computer, because the minis are too inconvenient to buy.

Mini games aren't for you, then. go play checkers.

So you are saying people that want to use dice apps are "tools" and would rather play it on computer? Pretty harsh generalization there. So because my friend wants to use a dice app in DnD we should kick him out and tell him to go play it on the computer (or go play checkers).

At first I thought this thread was kind of funny but now it's just another sad example of people ruining other's fun for no reason.

Think what you want to, I know what I wrote, and no where in my post did I mention your "Friend".

How do you see insisting on playing a dice game with dice is ruining someone else fun?

By the Way since you want to ride that train, I recently saw a "New and Improved" group of people playing a game of D and D game run strictly with computers. Was that D and D? NO. That was a bunch of cats sitting around looking at screens.... PLAYING A VIDEO GAME.

(and for the record, 4th edition is not Dungeons and Dragons, anymore. I don't know what it is, but is isn't the Dungeons and Dragons.)

Thier interaction was about as enjoyable to watch as watching a LAN party, so before you come in here lambasting someone you need to step off and keep your cheap potshot to yourself.

The game is about dice. Dice came with the game, you didn't get some highspeed CD/DVD/computer in your box of minis, you got ...dice.

It's bad enough that we have to even put up with people pulling out thier cell phones to talk to some other fool on the other end about absolutly nothing mid turn, telling you to "Hold on a minute...". NOW we get someone who brings in thier coveted iphone or whatever and throws it down on the table and insists that his device is going to give a random roll, and that you can trust his win when tries to tell you that all of his rolls were above ground, and absolutly positively legit?

Number 1, You are rude and obnoxious if you pull a phone out in mid turn and tell me to, "Hold on a minute, I have to take this.." thereby screwing up the whole turn sequence, your concentration, and thereby the game. (yeah, that is a real thing that has happened)

Number 2, You are imposing some completly different element to a game that is already been established in a setting where people interact with dice, (the dice being the unifying factor.)

Number 3, the wins won like this are tainted, however and whatever universe you live in for the simple fact that you threw in an element of uncertanty in the device itself.
(How do I know that he didn't adjust the device givng his "rolls" a 2% increase in the results, or that his "Rolls" were absolutly random?)

You pull out a high speed computer do hicky and all of the sudden you have thrown a completly different dynamic into the game. It isn't a tabletop minis game, anymore. Its a computer game.

I see it as someone who pulls out something foreign to the game and starts using it, therby leaving everyone standing around with both a WTF look on thier face, but even worse, to wonder if the results coming out of the device are even legitimate.
Either way You are IMPOSING something that wasn't and isn't part of the metagame. You are pushing something on people that they were not even expecting, then you can sit there, win with the thing and see the sour grapes you sow with your game group as people start either getting one for themselves, or they leave to go find another group.

Or...
The third alternative comes with a face full of fist, your device being thrown at the nearest wall and impending violence and doom.


All in all though, the whole gaming dynamic is forever changed and your going to see a radical change for the worse in your game group. If it stays together, great, bully on them, but it still isn't a game with dice and miniatures anymore...

It is a computer game, played on the table with miniatures.

might as well be a LAN party.

You seem to be missing my point. Saying someone using a dice app shouldn't be playing is like saying someone who uses a laptop mousepad instead of a regular mouse shouldn't be playing a computer game. I too prefer actual dice and I wouldn't use a dice app but I'm not going to say "Sorry can't play with you because of your lack of dice." And also: this is a game, intended to be FUN for both players. IMO someone refusing to play with someone because of a dice app is just ruining someone's fun for no real reason. Which brings me to this point: everyone who screams "cheater" at the first sign of a cell phone really really needs to get their priorities together and realise their little plastic men are not really fighting for the fate of the universe and that not every game is a tournament game (unless all you play is tournaments of course :p )

lixulana wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Don't load all 36 - load 6. This gives a clear statistical advantage for slightly "lucky" results, but isn't so large that the opponent would notice a whole field of 6s.

in the course of what you use in warhammer gaffing the dice would be more effective and less detectable than a load.

besically it breaks down to casinos go to all this trouble so they dont get cheated because they are already going to win so they dont care about making it more in their favor than it already is.

Cheaters get greedy, which makes them do obvious, dumb things. Doing something small for a 5% net swing would be the best cheat. For example, suppose I fix my dice like this:
1. 16.7%
2. 13.7% (-3%)
3. 16.7%
4. 16.7%
5. 19.7% (+3%)
6. 16.7%
This is what I'm talking about not getting greedy by loading the 6 and drilling the 1 (or gaffing for 6s).

My net odds become:
2+. 83.3%
3+. 69.7% (+3%)
4+. 53.0% (+3%)
5+. 36.3% (+3%)
6+. 16.7%
That's a nice little bump for the most common 3+, 4+, & 5+ tests, and not too painful for Ld tests (a lot of the 2 and 5s will cancel each other out).

As players focus heavily on 6s and 1s, I'll bet the vast majority of player's wouldn't ever notice, and I could probably run these dice for the entire block of 36. I probably wouldn't need any "fair" dice because I'd still be getting my fair share of 1s, and not more than my fair share of 6s.


Casinos want perfect dice, because the more perfectly fair they are, the more they win. If there were a pattern, the player could exploit it faster than the house.
____

yakface wrote: I see this kind of 'anti-cheating' paranoia stuff tossed around so frequently online that it really makes me wonder if my mentality of gaming is completely removed from most gamers.

There a thousand ways to cheat in this hobby, but at the end of the day if someone beats you by cheating, so what? Even in the hardest hardcore tournaments, the prizes are almost always just MORE product for the game. So at the end of the day really what have you lost if you've lost a game to purported 'cheater'? Not much.

The issue with dice cheating is that it's often not obvious, whereas fudging movement is more obvious.

If someone cheats for prizes with monetary value, then that's stealing from the people who didn't cheat. That's really the same as taking a dollar out of everybody's wallet, or stealing the price out of the real winner's car after the event. You don't have a problem with that?


I default to "strict" play, so when I've played against "cheaters", I annoyed me until I learned that they just play differently: Fast and loose. When they do that stuff, I just do it more. They take an inch, I take 2 or 3. Sometimes, I didn't even pretend to measure it, and just moved models. It's a goofy way to play, and a good break from strict play.

Of course, some guys don't like it when you play like they do, and will ask to play more strictly. I'm OK with that, too.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is "gaffing" a die, and how does it differ from loading a die?

"IMO someone refusing to play with someone because of a dice app is just ruining someone's fun for no real reason. Which brings me to this point: everyone who screams "cheater" at the first sign of a cell phone really really needs to get their priorities together and realise their little plastic men are not really fighting for the fate of the universe and that not every game is a tournament game (unless all you play is tournaments of course :p ) "


Are you serious? Tell me that you are joking.

I honestly do not understand your opinion.

-My Fantasy box set, 40K box set, each and every spinoff game every book, every download, and each and every codex's mention NOTHING about dice applications. They are not part of the game.

-People who pull out cell phones at the table, tell you to "Hold on a minute, I gotta take this..." are committing party fouls and a BS flag is thrown on the play.
and in terms of interruption, its outright rude and they need thier chops busted for being inconsiderate and interrupting the game.
as a matter of fact, Mr or Miss Party Foul need to leave the stupid cell phone in the car and pay attention to the game at hand.

- No where in my postings did I call people cheater. I call them Tool, because it isn't even a question of pulling out something that is game changing and thinking that you are going to impose something like this on the gaming group as a whole without even asking. As well as that, I said that thier so called "Rolls" are suspect.
Bottom line up front- THAT IS the point.... YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY IDEA IF THE "ROLLS" ARE LEGITAMATE.

-You come to a table with your dice, templates, miniatures, and army list. I show up with a calculater, a laptop, a bunch of cardstock "miniatures", and a pen and a lazer pointer.
You actually let me play you, and I win. Are you seriously going to tell me that that would be classified as a "good" game? That you were playing a "Good" player?
You would be playing a tool. pure and simple, you would be playing TFG.

News flash... No. Not only am I showing up with all sorts of proxies, claiming that they are so's and so and what's a what, I don't even have real rolls on the dice, so you don't even have an equal chance. Some sockmonkey shows up like that, you need to laugh them out of the room.

If you let substitutions like dice applications fly, then why not let substitutions of mini's fly, as well?
Why not roll up to your table with cardboard cutouts of a tank company, or a Gaunt swarm?
How about when I ride in with a styro box and call it a titan?

Why won't you play me? Aren't you ruining MY fun?

Grot 6 wrote:"IMO someone refusing to play with someone because of a dice app is just ruining someone's fun for no real reason. Which brings me to this point: everyone who screams "cheater" at the first sign of a cell phone really really needs to get their priorities together and realise their little plastic men are not really fighting for the fate of the universe and that not every game is a tournament game (unless all you play is tournaments of course :p ) "


Are you serious? Tell me that you are joking.

I honestly do not understand your opinion.

-My Fantasy box set, 40K box set, each and every spinoff game every book, every download, and each and every codex's mention NOTHING about dice applications. They are not part of the game.

-People who pull out cell phones at the table, tell you to "Hold on a minute, I gotta take this..." are committing party fouls and a BS flag is thrown on the play.
and in terms of interruption, its outright rude and they need thier chops busted for being inconsiderate and interrupting the game.
as a matter of fact, Mr or Miss Party Foul need to leave the stupid cell phone in the car and pay attention to the game at hand.

- No where in my postings did I call people cheater. I call them Tool, because it isn't even a question of pulling out something that is game changing and thinking that you are going to impose something like this on the gaming group as a whole without even asking. As well as that, I said that thier so called "Rolls" are suspect.
Bottom line up front- THAT IS the point.... YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY IDEA IF THE "ROLLS" ARE LEGITAMATE.

-You come to a table with your dice, templates, miniatures, and army list. I show up with a calculater, a laptop, a bunch of cardstock "miniatures", and a pen and a lazer pointer.
You actually let me play you, and I win. Are you seriously going to tell me that that would be classified as a "good" game? That you were playing a "Good" player?
You would be playing a tool. pure and simple, you would be playing TFG.

News flash... No. Not only am I showing up with all sorts of proxies, claiming that they are so's and so and what's a what, I don't even have real rolls on the dice, so you don't even have an equal chance. Some sockmonkey shows up like that, you need to laugh them out of the room.

If you let substitutions like dice applications fly, then why not let substitutions of mini's fly, as well?
Why not roll up to your table with cardboard cutouts of a tank company, or a Gaunt swarm?
How about when I ride in with a styro box and call it a titan?

Why won't you play me? Aren't you ruining MY fun?

I'd play you as long as we had fun.

Also: "No where in my postings did I call people cheater." That was not directed at you, rather all the people who are in-fact saying if you have a phone you are automatically cheating.

Oh also, I hope the person with the phone picks it up. Life doesn't stop for games, who knows what the call could be.

Grot 6 wrote:"IMO someone refusing to play with someone because of a dice app is just ruining someone's fun for no real reason. Which brings me to this point: everyone who screams "cheater" at the first sign of a cell phone really really needs to get their priorities together and realise their little plastic men are not really fighting for the fate of the universe and that not every game is a tournament game (unless all you play is tournaments of course :p ) "


Are you serious? Tell me that you are joking.

I honestly do not understand your opinion.

[rant]

Aren't you ruining MY fun?

If you play against somebody who is cheating, the fact that they cheat with a dice roller app, by moving their miniatures and extra 1/2" when you aren't watching closely, or bring weighted dice doesn't really matter. If they want to cheat, they will. Its a GAME, if people cheating bothers you, don't play with those people.

Die rollers do not make somebody a cheater. It is a tool to roll dice. Don't claim that people that want to roll the 40 lasgun shots all at once without having to roll and count out all the dice, losing three on the floor and two ending up in crevices so they have to be re-rolled are doing so only to gain an advantage; they probably want to save time. They probably want to do it to make the game more fun.

If you hate that, you're entitled to that opinion, but don't start claiming that somebody rolling random numbers with something that is more-than-likely MORE random than physical dice ruins the game and destroys all the fun involved. I bet that somebody that brings a die roller wants to use it to speed things along, not to cheat, and if you ask them to roll real dice, they will more than likely agree. Everyone I know that likes the die rollers will gladly roll dice, they just prefer to roll 40 at once instead because it goes WAY faster.

I certainly would doubt the integrity of dice my opponent brought to the game MORE than a die roller app if my opponent was willing to let me use it for my rolls too.

^
that

Dang new page... last post of previous page... (that rolls off the tongue)

Grot 6 wrote:-My Fantasy box set, 40K box set, each and every spinoff game every book, every download, and each and every codex's mention NOTHING about dice applications. They are not part of the game.

Do they mention anything beyond the included dice (generally considered somewhat less-than-great) and the red measuring sticks (that are incredibly inaccurate)?

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Pipboy101 wrote:I rolls statistically accurately 100% of the time. There is no odd rolls made by the app such as rolling five 1s in a single dice throw.

This doesn't make sense. What's "statistically accurate" when it's at home? If it can't roll five 1s then the programme is deliberatly skewed to only produce results within a certain margin of probability, and outlying results are excluded. That simply doesn't reflect reality and is one good reason why you should use proper dice.

Computer programmes can't be genuinely random, they are only pseudorandom and rely on an algorithm to give the effect of being random. I've always thought of rolling dice as being an exciting part of the game so why anyone would want to do away with them is beyond me.

I concur. This is bad for four reasons.

1. The opportunity to cheat is legion.

2. It removes a pesonal element from the game, you roll the dice yourself and face the consequences.

3. Random number routines do have an averaging element, this will favour some units, you need to account for the string of ones or sixes that give outside odds opponents a chance.

4. Also if you do have a Bloodthirster fluff all his attacks because the computer says so, you are likely to get arguments. Extreme dice rolls require the rolling of dice. When a Fire Warrior roughs up a Space Marine Chaplain its ok because the dice went one way and not the other, you see it you accept it and such long odds wins become much of the enjoyment of the game.

Personally, I wouldn't use one just because I'd rather not deal with anyone having that thought in the back of their head that I might have been cheating with it.

Of course, I'm also the sort who throws any new dice I have a few hundred times to make sure they're fair before using them, so I might be a bit of an outlier.

I'm with the dice rollers. While they may be "accurate" dice rolling applications take the fun of rolling a massive pile of dice with a horde army. Yes it takes longer but if your rushing a game of 40k your probably missing some of the fun anyway. That and you cant special order really cool looking dice to be even more unique on the table. And to the people who think you cant get a string of 1's on a programmed roller think again. Im the only person in my guild on World of Warcraft who has rolled 5 1's in a row on a 1 to 100 scale. Unfortunately that luck follows me to the table. ing dice.

Personaly I would not use one, I like my dice. Also I would not care if the person I was playing used one. If the person is going to cheat, they are going to cheat. Whether they use some loaded dice or hacked the dice application. I feel that useing a dice roller app. takes the luck out of the game. The dice god does not favor the dice rolling app, nor does he bless them.

I should say this again, I suppose; I don't particularly like using a die roller, because I think the 'feel' of WHFB or WH40K is better when you roll real dice. That said, I don't have a problem with somebody using a die roller, I realize that it is just a tool to speed things along. I wouldn't use one myself, I love bringing cool dice to games too much. (My black marble casino dice are awesome!)

TakeABow wrote:I should say this again, I suppose; I don't particularly like using a die roller, because I think the 'feel' of WHFB or WH40K is better when you roll real dice. That said, I don't have a problem with somebody using a die roller, I realize that it is just a tool to speed things along. I wouldn't use one myself, I love bringing cool dice to games too much. (My black marble casino dice are awesome!)

Nice! I was thinking of picking up a set of obsidian dice my FLGS got a hold of but it's pretty expensive...

My friend bought their copper dice set for dnd though. Loud, heavy, makes the tableshake, but they are awsome.

I think the dice rolling aps take away from the fun of the game itself. It's a tabletop game, but I've seen games de-railed because people have to stop to consult online faqs, pdf codex, or that "one guy that said you can do X thing on Y forum" I can see the usefulness of the app, but overall I think such things ruin the spirit of the game.

Shake the dice and hold your breathe as you pray to the All Father for another pair of sixes

Forget it.

You don't even want to have a conversation when you just arbitrarily just trash my post and cast it off as a rant.

Thanks for nothing.


If you think thats how you get a point across, think again.









Automatically Appended Next Post:

TakeABow wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:"IMO someone refusing to play with someone because of a dice app is just ruining someone's fun for no real reason. Which brings me to this point: everyone who screams "cheater" at the first sign of a cell phone really really needs to get their priorities together and realise their little plastic men are not really fighting for the fate of the universe and that not every game is a tournament game (unless all you play is tournaments of course :p ) "


Are you serious? Tell me that you are joking.

I honestly do not understand your opinion.

[rant]

Aren't you ruining MY fun?

RANT