Hi guys,

Someone told me once before, one of the best ways to learn the game for a noob is to copy a pro's list and start playing with it; so I did.

I used Yermom's list.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/274452.page

Instead of 2 trygons, I used 1 trygon and 1 mawloc.

Here goes the cheese, and it'll happen maybe when the Moon, the Sun, the Mars and the Earth all line up perfectly. Everything came on the table at turn 2. A land raider with 5 termies parked side way at front of another tank, so I surrounded it with the pods, zoanthropes and trygon. Like you guessed it, the mawloc came up from under and auto kill that land raider + termies. That guy packed up and left.

Those planets need to line up more often.

Thanks for reading.

LOL thats great! I never really considered that tactic, but I suppose if you really wanted you could get crazy with all spore pod infantry and 3 mawlocs. With 2 tyrants for +2 to reserves, you can most likely surround and kill 2 units with mawlocs and around 10 spods that way.

I had the identical luck. I used pods and Hive Commnder and Mawloc starting on the board. I was fortunate that he also blocked his own LR in a bit with two Razors making iot much easier to block him off. LRs take up a lot of space. Even average scatters will still work at times.

New Player wrote: That guy packed up and left.

Congrats. You have gained a rank in doling out lawful dickings.

Love it. For the purpose of Terror from the Deep, do friendly vehicles/units count as impassable terrain, so you can't move them nor move through them?

If so, makes it so much easier to auto destroy things.

PROMOTION!

N.I.B. wrote:Love it. For the purpose of Terror from the Deep, do friendly vehicles/units count as impassable terrain, so you can't move them nor move through them?

If so, makes it so much easier to auto destroy things.

Friendly vehicles and units are always impassible terrain.

Honestly maybe the guy shouldn't be building a list where all his power is concentrated into one place on the table anyways.

It warms my little bug heart to see someone use my list and have success with it

So, will people continue to whine that the Tyranids have no way of clearing a parking lot?

Egregious leap to conclusions FTW. This isn't a viable tactic for clearing a parking lot. The OP admits to as much.

Funny gimmick scenario that gibbed a point-sink unit.

Bear in mind the probabilities of this happening are not as remote as the OP is implying. If it happened to me as well do the mathhammer. I estimated that almost 50% of the time it will work on mech spam that cluster tanks in diagonal deployment. Tank spam in a corner is also a prime target. If you use pods ( I tried to use average scatter of pods and Mawloc, along with a cluster formation) I estimated a 50% probability. You see big tanks have big footprints so you need space to get them y=to the side and you are more likely to get a hit even with some scatter.

Also consider that where your opponent sees spore pods he does not want that Carnifex to have room between tanks to deploy, if you back with trygons the same applies.

I did not build a list around Mawloc abuse in mind, have it in mind but f I get to chose side for deployement I will leave a good obvious spot for tanks and other units to deploy for my opponent to choose if I can.

I've been tabled by those sort of tactics before, (Two units of bladestorming Dire Avengers and a unit of Fire Dragons, all in twin bright lance Wave Serpents) and have learned to keep as much stuff in reserve as possible and spread out the rest. That is why I've made my Ork army entirely mounted in trukks/Battlewagons, so they can get in amongst the enemy as quick as possible. This tactic would be nasty against massed footslogging Guard or Orks. You might get away with having a deathstar unit in WFB, but in 40K, it's just asking to be outmaneuvered.

felixcat wrote:
If it happened to me as well do the mathhammer. I estimated that almost 50% of the time it will work on mech spam that cluster tanks in diagonal deployment. Tank spam in a corner is also a prime target. If you use pods ( I tried to use average scatter of pods and Mawloc, along with a cluster formation) I estimated a 50% probability.

And now we've got made up math! Even MOAR FTW!

First an utterly butchered sentence (looks like it is written by a 5 yo) containing "mathhammer".

Then followed by a sentence containing; "I estimate that almost 50%...".

Tell you what. I estimate that those two sentences makes 0.001 % sense while containing 100% fail. Just do the math..hehe.

On a more positive and constructive note I would really like to know how the "almost 50% chance to work on mech spam that cluster tanks in diagonal deployment" was calculated. I really would.

It's no different than a nasty Deamon list where everything comes on the table at the start of turn 2. The list seems nasty and unstoppable when it's lucky, but how will it do if it gets unlucky against an IG list with an astropath. How will the list do if only 1 unit comes in on turn 2, and only 1/3 of the remaining reserve units make it on by turn 3. That's 3 turns of IG gunline firepower that half of a tyrnaid army will have to deal with. You'll end up fighting an IG gun line with half an army making piecemail assault after piecemail assault, and the nids will get gunned down.

@ Steelmage99
I did not realize that you were so well educated. I guess since English is NOT my mother tongue ( French Canadian with a university degree) you feel obliged to call me a five year old - I'm assuming that is what your internet speak means. I bow to your superior intelligence.

@ sourclams
There are a lot of variables to figure out. Note I said I was using reserve bonuses, I was averaging scatter ( 2" - 3" ), I was talking about a pretty common tactic of using your multiple tanks to provide cover, and I was looking at the dimensions of an LR. No it is NOT made up. And your reply was as rude as Steelmage99's reply. Please be both literate, polite and analytical in your responses to my comments. It isn't asking a lot.

Anyone else can feel free to jump all over me. I don't really mind. I have words in french for all of you but I'll stick to English, lol.

So some math - not an exact science - never thought it was but an indication of probabilities.

Tyrant's Hive Commander and Lictor - 50% chance of arriving turn two with Lictor.

I estimated a Landraider to be 6" by 4". So a 2"-3" scatter works and of course with a Lictor , well. That is a 47% chance of hitting the raider without the Lictor.

Now I never said you must arrive turn two and do this. If you get two pods ( out of the four I use) which is a high probabi8lity you can usually block two sides ( again with just average scatter).

I did say I assumed a clusterf##k formation ( which in my game was the case as it often is with mech SM lists). They will block a side and back of the LR - note too that often a board edge on a flank will do the same but we will assume the opponent is not that stupid.

So I can hear your retorts already. The Lictor needs to be on the table. Yes that is true but my Mawloc can choose when to re burrow and arrive as well ( he starts on the table). I might indeed not get enough pods to land and I might lose one to Mawloc scatter. So be it.

I'm after a deathstar squad. You definitely run the very real risk of killing your own models with this tactic. I never meant to imply that could not happen.

However the implication both of the above posters are making that I've never used this tactic and succeeded is pure bile on their part. I assure I have. I'm not expecting it to work every game but it has a reasonable chance to succeed within given parameters. I'm not tailoring a list to accommodate it either. I like the Mawloc regardless as it has its uses.

There is a tendency to rely on what others say and not test out for yourselves. Too much 'bul' is sprouted on the internet. I know that. So it becomes easy to dismiss anything I write and make fun of it. I like Carnifexes over Trygons and Mawlocs over Trygons. I'm well aware of all the incoherent babble on the net trying to prove that Carnis are a bad buy now. Fact of the matter is I like my Carnifexes to survive a few turns and they do. When I tested Trygons they did not. I also use Crushing Claws on my Tervs. They have worked for me. I take Onslaught more often then Catalyst.

I'm not a noob at 40k. I don't make assumptions - I test a lot of lists and play a lot of games ( four or five a month ) for quite a long period of time. Use what you like and what works for you but please don't look to discredit just to prove how smart you are.

Hate those guys. I've met them yesterday. He got the first round and burried Mawlocs. In my turn i had nothing to shoot at, and at the start of his next move, both bugs came out automaticly taking out basilisk and almost manticore before the damn round begun. Ech, hate those guys

Hey Yermom, I forgot to thank you for the list. I love it.

After reading felixcat's, I got an inspiration. Maybe we can all help, and craft this idea into a much more viable tactic.

Assuming everything came on turn 2 with 2 hive commanders. Lictors (deathleaper) don't scatter, what if you put a lictor about 7 or 8 inches away from a land raider, and have your pod drop about between them (kind of hard to explain without visual image)? You most likely get where your pod will land.

Or maybe just use lictors to trap things. Let your pods deep strike first, and place your lictors at the final open spot.

Units with pods don't have to show up with pod, so you can get a lot of empty pods to trap things.

Like warpcrafter said, what if your opponent reserves everything, someone come up with plan 2? haha



I played a game against an IG player today. Kill point & Spearhead deployment, and just like Nurglitch's description of a parking lot. I lol-ed (best description ever). Mawlocs were the major winners of the day. At the end, I lost the game cause pro > noob. :( haha

The tactic really only works for deathstar units. Anything else and you are just asking to be templated and large blasted to death.

Although this is kind of a gimmick move, I can see how lictors suddenly become viable when trying to use it...they don't scatter.

Not saying that I would ever do it (I like my list way too much), but it's something to think about if all your opponent ever runs is a landraider and with assault terminators inside.

@Felixcat.

Thank you for taking the time to explain how you calculated your chance.

@Steelmage99

De rien, mon plaisir. You are welcome and your comment is appreciated.

@Lukas83

You are correct. It is very risky. Generrally this tactic is something to keep up your sleeve and pull out only when the situation is such that your chances are at least 50/50 to succeed. Not all forces can blast/template you with impunity either. Whatever drops in support of the Mawloc is there to also take put pesky units. But it is indeed a risk. I guess after playing Orks for many years i like to take a few chances, lol.

It is often easy to forget to be polite when we're on the Internet.

I suppose it is also easy to forget the rules of Dakka Dakka.

Please do not forget these things anymore in this thread.

I don't know, this 'tactic' seems to be an exploit of movement rules. I'd find it far more likely that 'developing' this 'tactic' would earn you the TFG label than the accolades of your peers...

edit: specifically I'm referring to surrounding a target with spore pods specifically, not when an opponent castles themselves into the situation

If spore pods become too popular the end result will just be a lot of Marine and IG lists running with an inquisitor HQ and Elite. 2 psychic hoods and 2 groups of mystics will really hurt a tyranid drop pod list.

Kroot Loops wrote:I don't know, this 'tactic' seems to be an exploit of movement rules. I'd find it far more likely that 'developing' this 'tactic' would earn you the TFG label than the accolades of your peers...

edit: specifically I'm referring to surrounding a target with spore pods specifically, not when an opponent castles themselves into the situation

How does it exploit it? All you'r doing is positioning yourself for greater effect on an attack. If you were to call that an exploit, then most if not all Competitive armies have some sort exploit going.

It sounds like a damned good idea to me, and very Tyranid; lay down some anti-tank mines so your opponent can't simply drive-off when your bugs close for the kill.

Soladrin wrote:

Kroot Loops wrote:I don't know, this 'tactic' seems to be an exploit of movement rules. I'd find it far more likely that 'developing' this 'tactic' would earn you the TFG label than the accolades of your peers...

edit: specifically I'm referring to surrounding a target with spore pods specifically, not when an opponent castles themselves into the situation

How does it exploit it? All you'r doing is positioning yourself for greater effect on an attack. If you were to call that an exploit, then most if not all Competitive armies have some sort exploit going.

the idea that you can lose a transport and all embarked models simply because you had four pods dropped around it and a mawloc come up, engineering a situation where 'models that can not be moved without coming within 1" of a unit or impassable terrain' are destroyed, instead of dealing with the actual characteristics of the model, seems like an exploit, I mean it doesn't even matter if the Mawloc's attack harms the vehicle, it's automatically moved. It's not against the rules certainly, but will rarely garner you respect.

Dual Lash, Nob Bikers, TH/SS in a LR are a pain, but they work within the frame of rules they were designed too. The comparison would be if you could use Lash to sweep units off the table, or into impassible terrain and automatically destroy them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote:It sounds like a damned good idea to me, and very Tyranid; lay down some anti-tank mines so your opponent can't simply drive-off when your bugs close for the kill.

Really? They're anti-tank mines? What strength do they hit at? against what facing of AV? So then the vehicle explodes and the occupants take STR 4 hits..

what? Nothing like that? The vehicle and all occupants are simply destroyed because they would be within 1"? That doesn't sound like anything related to an anti-tank mines, it sounds like a funky rules thing :p

Kroot Loops:

I believe they're S6 Monstrous Creatures, though I don't have my Codex with me at the moment. Considering the only way of crossing them would be Tank Shock then the facing would be the Front armour.

So the player would have the option of not moving their vehicles at cruising speed, and getting hit on the Rear armour as such like Genestealers and whatever closes, or Tank Shocking through the Mycetic Spore and volunteering for some nasty damage. Or simply blocking off movement when a Mawloc erupts from underneath the vehicle.

So yes, they are indeed like anti-tank mines.

If you place the Mycetic Spores close enough you could actively shoot AV12- enemy vehicles with the Mycetic Spores' shooting attacks.

You can call this an "exploit" or you can call it a "Tactic".

the chance of pulling this off is so slim that it cant be called an exploit.

Firstly the nid player needs to have everything come in on one turn

Second, the spore pods cant scatter in the "wrong" direction, please note that too close is just as bad because if the mawloc touches a friendly model then you have to move the friendly model as well to get the tank out of the template.

Third, the mawloc has to hit, or not scatter in such a way as to leave an opening for the tank, or touch a spore pod.

any way to reduce these chances? not realisticly, Lictors/dealthleaper have "locator beacons" but they have to be on the table at the start of the turn, and if you opponent sees you have a mawloc + a few spods in reserve, along with a lictor next to his expensive tank, and he DOESNT kill the lictor.... well then he is just an idiot.

Following the rules is never an "exploit."

Secondly, the rules for what happens to the unit that can't move out of the way are written into the Mawloc's rules. It's pretty clear that if you can arrange for the other unit not to be able to move out of the way, you can destroy it.

IMO just another reason not to use "all your eggs in a basket" units.

It depends on how the HT ability stacks. Some say it does so you have a 2+ reserves roll in turn two, in which case it's fairly viable. If not, it's a little less reliable.

And Nurglitch, I'm not talking about the pods came down last turn and you ignored them, but I don't think that's what the OP was talking about either.

It's rolling for your reserves in this order:

spore 1

spore 2

spore 3 (if needed)

spore 4 (If needed)

mawloc (or conversely, you had it burrow in turn 1)

this creates a barrier around the vehicle and then the Mawloc forces the auto-destroy, all in the same turn.

As to spore scatter, given the size of most transports and how far you have to move them to be out from under the large blast marker, you'll need some pretty significant scatter.

Your main hope is going to be the scatter of the Mawloc.

And if the moved vehicle touches a pod/enemy unit it caused a tank shock to occur, or allowed the touched unit to make an attack on the vehicle, that would be a much better rule than the way it works now.

Demogerg:

I agree, to fall for this you would have to be an idiot, like that moron that held his entire White Scars in reserve and automatically lost when his opponent cordoned off all the entry points with Kroot.

But if you're not going to be an idiot, then you need to think of the consequences of avoiding this situation: you can't just form up a parking lot because a Mawloc coming up underneath it isn't going to miss a tank, and you're not going to have room to move the ones in the middle out of the way.

Like you said, you'd have to be an idiot to fall for this, but you have to play smarter when you avoid this too. You can't just park your motor-pool in a corner of the board and rely on that to blast the Tyranids apart after they compliantly march into your guns.

Would this change my deployment? Sure, when I look at my opponent's army list, I see this 1 trick pony, chuckle, and prepare to maybe lose one thing as my opponent gimps themselves to pull it off.

Iron_Chaos_Brute:

How would a Tyranid player "gimp" themselves pulling off what Kroot Loops describes?

sourclams wrote:Egregious leap to conclusions FTW. This isn't a viable tactic for clearing a parking lot. The OP admits to as much.

Funny gimmick scenario that gibbed a point-sink unit.

True that, but the lesson behind it is if playing a swarming army, completely surrounding a transport can yield some surprising results. I remember my (chaos) lord being the only one left when a bunch of nid's surrounded his ride and wrecked it, leaving space for 1 model to do an emergancy disembark.

Oh, and pointsink units are not a good idea when things like this can and happen

Nurglitch wrote:Iron_Chaos_Brute:

How would a Tyranid player "gimp" themselves pulling off what Kroot Loops describes?

They spend at least 260 points (+ units to go inside the spores) to drop right in the face of an opponent's army. Now let's presume that the nid player isn't a complete idiot and spods 6 Zoans and the Doom of Malan'tai. We're up to 750 points just to support this gimmick.

Now how long is that 750 points going to survive the ensuing massive multicharge? Not much in there has much capability in HtH, so it's all neutralised and killed off over the next little while. Will it do a fair bit of damage? Yeah. Is it enough to cripple an opponent in one horrific turn if they don't put all their eggs in one basket? No.

It's looks like an okay tactic but I think most smart opponents will see it coming and take the correct steps to counter it.

G

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Iron_Chaos_Brute:

How would a Tyranid player "gimp" themselves pulling off what Kroot Loops describes?

They spend at least 260 points (+ units to go inside the spores) to drop right in the face of an opponent's army. Now let's presume that the nid player isn't a complete idiot and spods 6 Zoans and the Doom of Malan'tai. We're up to 750 points just to support this gimmick.

Now how long is that 750 points going to survive the ensuing massive multicharge? Not much in there has much capability in HtH, so it's all neutralised and killed off over the next little while. Will it do a fair bit of damage? Yeah. Is it enough to cripple an opponent in one horrific turn if they don't put all their eggs in one basket? No.

You have it right Iron_Chaos_Brute, I think Nurglitch likes gamey shenanigans like this or is playing devils advocate on purpose.

We are talking about 500+ points in MCs for + 2 reserves, 250 at least 250 points in mawlocs and and at least 4 pods all coordinating for perfect hits for autodestruction of a single unit in a transport in a pretty poorly defined, gamey technical kill?

Sure 1000 points in drop striking bugs ought to kill a full transport with a 2 turn multipart tactic.

Great tactic...

Here's an idea, bring the units down and just play the game normally.

Again you miss the point. I want to0 pod down in front of those transports regardless. Why? Because my list has a flying phalanx and i want to get to grips with your transports aas fast and easily as possible. So my podded units take out some transports and my HT, Parasite and Gargs attack what comes out and my Doom does even more damage. I might or might not try the Mawloc trick in SUPPORT of my main strategy.

You see my strategy is always to box you in so my assault squads can get at you. I'm not spending 1000 points to pull; of a one trick pony at all. I'm spending a 1000 points as on main attack force - Terv outflanking, pods dropping and flyers getting close by turn two. I would relish an ensuing multicharge as I do not use Zoans in pods at all. You will be charged first by Toxic Gargs, you will shot to bits by devilgaunts and my HT and Parasite, and Carni will be glad to join the melee. Does this always work? No. Nothing is foolproof. But you better believe that I would love to eliminate the deathstar Raider before the mayhem ensues since that is your main assault unit.

And if I have an army that you can't just reach down and pluck the effectiveness out of? What then?

Iron_Chaos_Brute is right. If you end up facing a well rounded balanced allcomers list you are just asking for punishment.

I think deepstriking into their deployment zone is good, but you may need to disperse your units to make sure all your winged stuff isn't hit by a demolisher/battlecannon the turn after they arrive.

I also use a primarily deepstriking list but my purpose isn't to box them in. It's to take them out before they retaliate. Doom is great for this as are zoanthropes. hive tyrants and trygons can catch what tries to run away. And although I don't use them warriors with deathpitters are pretty good transport openers.

My winged troops are not DSing or outflanking and my tactics will vary depending on my opponent. Let's talk with a bit of realism here. I use Doom but not Zoans. I find them a bit unreliable and prefer Carnifexes, btw. Trygons are not the be all end all either. I much prefer my winged HT. Half my list will DS and outflank, the other half flies starting on the table (well the Mawloc hides until I use him). I look to glance /immobilize if I cannot pen. Works out pretty well. I said the Mawloc was SUPPORT. He is after all just one unit. I'll decide how best to employ him depending on what I'm facing. The box tactic works quite well. I'm set up for it. I strike in force turn two and three. I don't want a bunch of footsloggers - i.e., Hive Tyrants, gaunts on foot, etc. Only my Terv walks on the table and he outflanks. It would be nice to take out an opponent before retaliation but that is a little optimistic with any list. Too many lists have counters for that tactic. It's better to have the force and build necessary to rebuff a retaliation and come out on top.

I actually think we are on the same page but we express it differently. I'm not disagreeing with you or Iron_Chaos_Brute. I'm saying you misunderstand my tactics.

a Tyranid army charged my 10th company.

I killed 2 Trygons with Lascannon Fire and melta fire...


That will kill them lol.
And he killed 2 rhinos half of Lucius's Squad and half of Logar's Squad.


but then Loken Brust into action slaughtering 20-30 Genestalars single handly.

needless to say the tyranids did not expect to find an entire army of plasma cannons turn towards them. They were annihalted before they could get to the objective XD.

This was in a Planet Strike Game

But somehow they still won the game. The Tyranids wiped out 2 compaines of space marines (not mine The Chapters Were Black Templars and DYI Chapter Called The Repentors) and slaughtered an imperial guard platton and a small contigent of Dark Angels. My area had no units left. Just my space marines having jelly beans and Tea.

But still it was a game
it ended with a
3-2 The Tyranids had won but i shall have my avenge! I SHALL!


I shall write this down into a book series as it seems that i keep facing this player and his nids, as well as the chaos players and Orc players.

Asherian Command wrote:a Tyranid army charged my 10th company.

I killed 2 Trygons with Lascannon Fire and melta fire...


That will kill them lol.
And he killed 2 rhinos half of Lucius's Squad and half of Logar's Squad.


but then Loken Brust into action slaughtering 20-30 Genestalars single handly.

needless to say the tyranids did not expect to find an entire army of plasma cannons turn towards them. They were annihalted before they could get to the objective XD.

This was in a Planet Strike Game

But somehow they still won the game. The Tyranids wiped out 2 compaines of space marines (not mine The Chapters Were Black Templars and DYI Chapter Called The Repentors) and slaughtered an imperial guard platton and a small contigent of Dark Angels. My area had no units left. Just my space marines having jelly beans and Tea.

But still it was a game
it ended with a
3-2 The Tyranids had won but i shall have my avenge! I SHALL!


I shall write this down into a book series as it seems that i keep facing this player and his nids, as well as the chaos players and Orc players.

What?

Seems like a good idea to box up your opponent's dedicated transport with your zoanthrope in pods whether using mawloc or not. If you get a wreck from shooting alone, that kills everything inside too.

Mawloc being a one trick pony, there are still many different uses:

Keep it alive at the back. Burrow it on turn 4 and deep strike in to contest objective on turn 5 seems useful. If they shoot at it during the first 3 or 4 turns, a 170 points fire magnet soaking some wounds from your other threats; seems like a good deal. Also, it seems like a waste of 170 points for most of the game, maybe it can act as a psychological strategy cause they don't know when you are going to burrow it. That turn 5 contest won me the game, then I think it's a 170 point well spent.

How about multi-assault? Have a durable cheap unit (maybe ripper) multi-assault your opponent's units so they can pull as much models close together as possible, and then have the Mawloc come up eating everything, friend and/or foe. Strength 6 AP 2 hit will kill a lot of things without a reliable invulnerable save. Some people seem to liking the idea multi-assaulting tyranid after they arrived at turn 2, maybe we can burrow the Mawloc on turn 2 and eat them on turn 3 while they pile into the left-over.

I pulled these off before. It's amusing. Yermom's list didn't even have a Mawloc in it to start with. Replacing a trygon with mawloc changed a little strategic mentality. We are not pulling 1000+ points into the list just for the "Mawloc in the Box" trick.

All these are just food for thought. We'll know what to do when that golden opportunity arrive and you have a Mawloc on your side. Let's all pray to the scatter dice god for a hit.

My list uses the Parasite of Mortex and I never thought of the ripper trick. Might have to think about that. I never said the Mawl;oc was a one trick pony, BTW. It has uses outside of goping after transports and tanks ( where it is the most difficult to use ).

Like the Deathleaper, the Mawloc is more than capable of contesting an objective late game or simply destroying troops sitting on an objective. It can go after LFs and Devastators. It can force your opponent to hange his deployment and game tactics. It can have a psychological effect for sure. Going after a deathstar is not the reason I take a Mawloc. But the extra MC is very useful.

Keep in mind that you can drop spore pods empty... people hate it when their assumptions about your deployment are invalidated.

No you can't. Spods are bought as upgrades for the unit and thus can't be deployed without the unit they are purchased for.

Of course you can deploy it empty. You cxan deploy drop pods empty can't you? It's a dedicated ' transport spore'. However, I'm not likely to let my units footslog across the table to get shot up. It will work with hybrid lists that have both fast and slow elements though. It becomes a rather wexpensive piece of terrain and gun platform, imho. Not a tactic I would use.

The big question here is whether the Mawloc can deploy under the LR. If it can, then this tactic can work. If it can't, and you are praying for it to DS in the appropriate direction, it's too unreliable. ("figure that with 33% chance of hit, which is a fail, you've got about 50% of the scatter that's good, if you are right up against the appropriate side of the vehicle, so you've got about a 1/3 chance of getting this to work, not enough to gamble a Mawloc + 4 Spods, particularly in a KP mission)

That said, I totally don't get the attitude from some folks that there's a way to "fall" for this. You have a Landraider with expensive cargo. That's a good unit, they are in something like 50% of SM lists. It's not in reserve. Once again, nothing terribly scrubby here, you want your big hammer unit on the board, particularly vs. Nids. Then bugs fall all around it and it gets Mawloc'd. I guess you can make the argument that you should have had a Mystic unit nearby to let you shoot some s8 at the pods, but that strikes me as internet toughguy syndrome at its worse.

I suppose you could incorporate 3 units of 3 Lictors as the surrounding units. They don't scatter and could fit in around the LR in spots that the Spore Pods missed. Just the threat of this could have ramifications on your opponent.

willydstyle wrote:Following the rules is never an "exploit."

Actually, the very definition of an exploit is following the rules. Not following the rules is cheating.

Lictors are more effective than multiple pods to make sure you do the job and are less of a KP sink, but if your lictors can't reach cover with their run move, they are screwed.

The point of this tactic isn't a 1000pt way of popping a land raider, it's a way of negating the fear of actually using a drop pod army against an opponent with a powerful countercharge unit sitting in wait in a land raider or something similar. It's pretty much impossible to pop a LR and kill its crew before they get to charge you if you drop pod inside of it to the point where it isn't isn't considered, mawlocks can make it happen.

if you're enemy has a big point sink unit like this and you can "break the back" of his army, go for it, just don't forget to bring a pod of venomthropes to make sure you survive the next turn.

New Player wrote:That guy packed up and left.

Lol it makes me laugh that some people still take the game so seriously, i mean its great to win and all. But the fun is in playing. Not just winning

Now let's presume that the nid player isn't a complete idiot and spods 6 Zoans and the Doom of Malan'tai.

No offence, but thats a big ass waste of points and complete stupidity, rather than being a good thing.
answer me this: Why the feth would you use these for the tactic mentioned? wouldnt you just go to town with thier lance powers?

Use cheap and useless units to trap.
Why use the best tank hunters in the game, to block a tank rather than pop it?

Phish Skills wrote:

New Player wrote:That guy packed up and left.

Lol it makes me laugh that some people still take the game so seriously, i mean its great to win and all. But the fun is in playing. Not just winning

I get to play against that guy again today. Turn out he's a pretty nice guy. Little did I known, he had a bad day previously because he was recently fire from work, and turn out some HQ named Vulkan was also in the land raider (Vulkan is a beast!!!). Seeing how 650+ points worth of units got instantly wiped-out. I felt bad about it. Anyway, since he saw what the Mawloc can do previously, he reserved everything, and we had a much more enjoyable back and forth action game.

To 40kenthusiast: Mawloc can deep strike on top of it. I figure as much for that 33% chance to instant wipe them off the table. If the Mawloc scattered, then I have no choice but shooting the land raider with zoanthropes.

To JD21290: I saw this Eldar player using his jetbikes to surround a Ork tank, and then he wrecked the tank with singing spear and instantly killed all those orks inside. I was stunned. I didn't even know about that rule. So monkey see monkey do, base on what Yermom have on his list. I'm not a good list writer. Maybe just me, I have no luck getting a wreck with zoanthrope. It always end up with vehicle explodes, which allows all those termies inside survive.

New Player wrote:

Phish Skills wrote:

New Player wrote:That guy packed up and left.

Lol it makes me laugh that some people still take the game so seriously, i mean its great to win and all. But the fun is in playing. Not just winning

I get to play against that guy again today. Turn out he's a pretty nice guy. Little did I known, he had a bad day previously because he was recently fire from work, and turn out some HQ named Vulkan was also in the land raider (Vulkan is a beast!!!). Seeing how 650+ points worth of units got instantly wiped-out. I felt bad about it. Anyway, since he saw what the Mawloc can do previously, he reserved everything, and we had a much more enjoyable back and forth action game.

To 40kenthusiast: Mawloc can deep strike on top of it. I figure as much for that 33% chance to instant wipe them off the table. If the Mawloc scattered, then I have no choice but shooting the land raider with zoanthropes.

To JD21290: I saw this Eldar player using his jetbikes to surround a Ork tank, and then he wrecked the tank with singing spear and instantly killed all those orks inside. I was stunned. I didn't even know about that rule. So monkey see monkey do, base on what Yermom have on his list. I'm not a good list writer. Maybe just me, I have no luck getting a wreck with zoanthrope. It always end up with vehicle explodes, which allows all those termies inside survive.

I really enjoy your approach to seeing a powerful new tactic. Instead of saying "OMG that's so cheesy" you say "that's awesome, now I want to try it!" I wish more players had attitudes likeyours

Plus, for all those people saying "LOL Thats so cheep itd never happen IRL", it makes perfect sense actually. Think about it; the big tank is driving happily across the ground, then suddenly pods hammer down around it, it can't move, and then an ENORMOUS SPIKY CREATURE pop out of the ground right beneath it, flips it over, tears it open and eats the chewy center. It's like a scene right out of Starship Troopers!

Really, my vision is a Mawloc could never eat a landraider, I don't think it's cinematic at all.

So how exactly do digging insects precisely coordiante with insect seeds plummeting through the air to exactly surround a moving tank? All at the same time...

I think it's ridiculous and gamey, and fairly silly and implausible, but to each his own.

Firstly, how a Mawloc eats a Land Raider.

The digging Tyranids precisely co-ordinates with the Mycetic Spores because they are all part of a vast and effective psychic network capable of enabling communicating between its nodes faster than the speed of light.

Yeah, Tyranids are freakin' psychic, how about that?

Augustus wrote:Really, my vision is a Mawloc could never eat a landraider, I don't think it's cinematic at all.

So how exactly do digging insects precisely coordiante with insect seeds plummeting through the air to exactly surround a moving tank? All at the same time...

I think it's ridiculous and gamey, and fairly silly and implausible, but to each his own.

I dont think the mawloc would be eating the landraider, more like splitting it in half and eating everything inside...

Also, the hivemind could accurately deploy spore pods with a timed landing, I dont see that as being far-fetched at all.

The Mawloc also has a tremor-sense sort of ability, so having it pop up right underneith a gigantic rumbling land raider doesnt seem inplausable at all.

New Player wrote:

Phish Skills wrote:

New Player wrote:That guy packed up and left.

Lol it makes me laugh that some people still take the game so seriously, i mean its great to win and all. But the fun is in playing. Not just winning

I get to play against that guy again today. Turn out he's a pretty nice guy. Little did I known, he had a bad day previously because he was recently fire from work, and turn out some HQ named Vulkan was also in the land raider (Vulkan is a beast!!!). Seeing how 650+ points worth of units got instantly wiped-out. I felt bad about it. Anyway, since he saw what the Mawloc can do previously, he reserved everything, and we had a much more enjoyable back and forth action game.

To 40kenthusiast: Mawloc can deep strike on top of it. I figure as much for that 33% chance to instant wipe them off the table. If the Mawloc scattered, then I have no choice but shooting the land raider with zoanthropes.

To JD21290: I saw this Eldar player using his jetbikes to surround a Ork tank, and then he wrecked the tank with singing spear and instantly killed all those orks inside. I was stunned. I didn't even know about that rule. So monkey see monkey do, base on what Yermom have on his list. I'm not a good list writer. Maybe just me, I have no luck getting a wreck with zoanthrope. It always end up with vehicle explodes, which allows all those termies inside survive.

Sucks that he got a bit upset. When i play i always come onto the table with the attitude that i'm going to enjoy my game, not just winning. Although its fun when that happens. (not often, WHY DICE GODS!!!). ^^

Phish Skills wrote:

New Player wrote:That guy packed up and left.

Lol it makes me laugh that some people still take the game so seriously, i mean its great to win and all. But the fun is in playing. Not just winning

Yeah and cheese lists that twist the rules are so much fun to play against.

agnosto wrote:

Phish Skills wrote:

New Player wrote:That guy packed up and left.

Lol it makes me laugh that some people still take the game so seriously, i mean its great to win and all. But the fun is in playing. Not just winning

Yeah and cheese lists that twist the rules are so much fun to play against.

Well apparently some people think it's not gamey rules abuse if you make up a neat story about psychic abilities or how a mawloc eats a landraider that makes sense to you.

In my stroy world the mawloc comes up uinder the landraider and...

gets crushed by 24 tonnes of ceramite and grinding track.

I'd ask a judge for a ruling on this before I let it slide.

And should the judge really do anything but enforce the rules that are written, rather than the rules that you want?

i thought of that and it works on infantry because they can't move if there in combat however the rules state that if there is that kind of situation with a tank, the tank will push anything out of the way. sorry man

Sand...read the rules for the Mawloc when it enters using "terror from the deep". Tanks blocked in and unable to move out of the way are destroyed.

willydstyle wrote:And should the judge really do anything but enforce the rules that are written, rather than the rules that you want?

Wrong, uses the deep strike rules, deep strike is movement, you can't move within an inch of an enemy, deploying a mawloc under a tank is not RAW.

Augustus, just give up. Everyone seems to be holding to their opinion and now we'll just have to wait for something official.

Augustus wrote:

willydstyle wrote:And should the judge really do anything but enforce the rules that are written, rather than the rules that you want?

Wrong, uses the deep strike rules, deep strike is movement, you can't move within an inch of an enemy, deploying a mawloc under a tank is not RAW.

Deep striking is not movement, deep striking within 1" of a model is allowed but causes a mishap, there is nothing specifically disallowing you from causing a mishap on purpose besides being unable to place your model, physically, where it should be.

Placing the mawloc is moot because you do not place the mawloc, you place the large blast template and /then/ replace it with the mawloc in the area cleared.

Read moar

Grundz wrote:

Augustus wrote:

willydstyle wrote:And should the judge really do anything but enforce the rules that are written, rather than the rules that you want?

Wrong, uses the deep strike rules, deep strike is movement, you can't move within an inch of an enemy, deploying a mawloc under a tank is not RAW.

Deep striking is not movement, deep striking within 1" of a model is allowed but causes a mishap, there is nothing specifically disallowing you from causing a mishap on purpose besides being unable to place your model, physically, where it should be.

Placing the mawloc is moot because you do not place the mawloc, you place the large blast template and /then/ replace it with the mawloc in the area cleared.

Read moar

Ugh. When asking someone to read more, I would recommend that you heed your own advice. The Mawloc rules state that the Mawloc follows deep striking rules. Deep striking happens during the movement phase; there is no such thing as a "deep striking phase" if it happens during the movement phase, it's movement.

Deep striking rules state that you must "place a model from the deep striking unit on the table"; the Mawloc's rules clearly state that you only use the blast "template" (it is in fact a large blast marker) only in the case when the deep strike is completed AND the Mawloc has arrived in the same location as an enemy unit, this is done in place of the normal mishap rules.

This means that you have to place your mawloc model "on the table" then scatter as normal before resolving any mishaps. This means that up until a mishap happens, you must follow the normal deep striking rules, just like any other model that has the deep strike USR up to and until a mishap is determined, not before.

agnosto wrote:Deep striking happens during the movement phase; there is no such thing as a "deep striking phase" if it happens during the movement phase, it's movement.

So my immobilised Dreadnought cannot pop smoke? There are many things that occur during the movement phase (several psychic powers come to mind) but this does not automatically categorize them as movement.

Ugh. When asking someone to read more, I would recommend that you heed your own advice. The Mawloc rules state that the Mawloc follows deep striking rules. Deep striking happens during the movement phase; there is no such thing as a "deep striking phase" if it happens during the movement phase, it's movement.

You mean like the doom's effect that happens during the shooting phase but isn't shooting?

If I can take from various other peoples arguments with partial quotes:

First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive

the deep strike section never use the terminology "move" at all; they use "deploy", "place" and "position" instead, implying that such a placement is not a normal "move" and thus not subject to the situations given earlier in the movement section

In fact the only place where move is mentioned is here

If a scatter occurs, roll 2d6 to see how many inches the model moves away from the intended position.

So, with all that in mind, it there is nothing stopping you from attempting to place a deep striking model atop, in base contact with, or within 1" of enemy models, if you want me to physically crush your models, I can do that, or you can just let me mark a point, it's up to you, but there is /nothing/ to stop you from placing said model wherever you want.

Hugs go out to Masked Thespian

Maybe I need to make a flow chart with pictures for people to figure this out?

sourclams wrote:

agnosto wrote:Deep striking happens during the movement phase; there is no such thing as a "deep striking phase" if it happens during the movement phase, it's movement.

So my immobilised Dreadnought cannot pop smoke? There are many things that occur during the movement phase (several psychic powers come to mind) but this does not automatically categorize them as movement.

DS rules, page 95, "In the movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further". Pretty straight forward that DS is movement because "any further" seems to indicate there was some movement happening there.

Popping smoke is in lieu of shooting which is why it is done "after completing its move" (page 62). Specific rules for whatever powers you're talking about always override the main rules where specified. The Mawloc's rules do not specify an exemption to DS rules except in the case of a mishap caused by scattering into an enemy unit.

agnosto wrote:
DS rules, page 95, "In the movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further". Pretty straight forward that DS is movement because "any further" seems to indicate there was some movement happening there.

I see, so we make implications sometimes, and ignore RAW other times, as long as it supports an overpriced unit that most people won't take anyway from doing its very obvious, intended purpose.

Grundz wrote:

agnosto wrote:
DS rules, page 95, "In the movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further". Pretty straight forward that DS is movement because "any further" seems to indicate there was some movement happening there.

I see, so we make implications sometimes, and ignore RAW other times, as long as it supports an overpriced unit that most people won't take anyway from doing its very obvious, intended purpose.

What RaW am I ignoring. There was no implication meant; perhaps my use of "seems" was weak so as to not appear antagonistic. I don't know how one may infer that something is not movement when they are told they may not move "any further".

agnosto wrote:
What RaW am I ignoring. There was no implication meant; perhaps my use of "seems" was weak so as to not appear antagonistic. I don't know how one may infer that something is not movement when they are told they may not move "any further".

You quote something, that says that Deep striking units cannot move further (and goes out of its way seemingly to not just state "this count's as the unit's movement") and then states, that in fact it count's as the units movement therefore separate movement rules apply

How about this, if it count's as movement, and "move' is used in the scatter dice roll, do I need to arch my tape measure and therefore reduce deep strike range when I "move" overtop of units via scatter like usual? Wouldn't I just stop when I try to "move" through your units? (and go closer than 1 inch)

I mean hey, its not even implied, it says that you "move" 2d6 inches! right in the rule!

comon dude, the rule is poorly written but mawlocs can still do their thing.

Grundz wrote:

agnosto wrote:
What RaW am I ignoring. There was no implication meant; perhaps my use of "seems" was weak so as to not appear antagonistic. I don't know how one may infer that something is not movement when they are told they may not move "any further".

You quote something, that says that Deep striking units cannot move further (and goes out of its way seemingly to not just state "this count's as the unit's movement") and then states, that in fact it count's as the units movement therefore separate movement rules apply

How about this, if it count's as movement, and "move' is used in the scatter dice roll, do I need to arch my tape measure and therefore reduce deep strike range when I "move" overtop of units via scatter like usual? Wouldn't I just stop when I try to "move" through your units? (and go closer than 1 inch)

I mean hey, its not even implied, it says that you "move" 2d6 inches! right in the rule!

comon dude, the rule is poorly written but mawlocs can still do their thing.

It is poorly written which is even more reason to apply the rules from the main book. I don't think you would stop your measurement until you reached the full extent of the scatter and there are no rules for terrain having an effect on DS so no need to arch the tape measure.

I understand your point, I just don't agree that the mawloc is or should be exempt from the DS rules except where noted in its own rule.

I can foresee marine players keeping land speeder storms near their ground pounders because of the mawloc.

I'm not going to get into the whole arguement about how the mawloc can or cannot DS into a mishap (i think it can, even though the rule is badly written, they is not rule saying that you cannot force mishap).

But why if its not intended to come up under models why would anyone take it? You'd take a trygon and have 3 more attacks and 2 sets of scything talons.

Phish Skills wrote:I'm not going to get into the whole arguement about how the mawloc can or cannot DS into a mishap (i think it can, even though the rule is badly written, they is not rule saying that you cannot force mishap).

But why if its not intended to come up under models why would anyone take it? You'd take a trygon and have 3 more attacks and 2 sets of scything talons.

You can still place it 1" away from the enemy unit; the template's big enough to hit 1/2 or more of the unit.
I play Tau so I won't get into the whole GW making useless units conversation (vespid and ethereals).

Hehe! i just dont wanna debate it because even though i i disagree with you, and i love the new codex, the mawloc rule, is REALLY badly written, it should have been more specific.

Do you know if GW are planning to release an FAQ on the mawloc rule and give the community some answers?

grundz wrote:Deep striking is not movement, deep striking within 1" of a model is allowed but causes a mishap,

That's conjecture, declaring it is allowed doesn't make it so. It breaks the move within an inch of a model rule in a plain literal manner.

grundz wrote:...there is nothing specifically disallowing you from causing

This is where the argument really goes wrong. This violates the permissive rules concept, rules say what you CAN do not what you CAN'T thats how rules work.

The simple illustration for this is "there isn't anything disallowing a player from taking 2 shooting phases, or from playing a bolt pistol as a lascannon" so that can be done right? It's not explicitly disallowed...

EDITs for quote clean up

Phish Skills wrote:Hehe! i just dont wanna debate it because even though i i disagree with you, and i love the new codex, the mawloc rule, is REALLY badly written, it should have been more specific.

Do you know if GW are planning to release an FAQ on the mawloc rule and give the community some answers?

I took a couple years' worth of legal classes so I know where you're coming from with the love to debate thing.

I would probably recommend you talk things over with your opponent until they, GW, get off their fat arses and come up with something.

I had this exact problem come up in a game today at the local GW. The staffs' response was 'no, the Mawloc cannot deep strike on top of other models as it would be 'moving' within 1'' of a model'.

I have no idea if this is the standard answer they have been asked to give out, but it does seem a bit daft to me (and i was playing against the pesky creature with my SoB); the Mawloc has no use outside of 'multiplemarbo' ability. Heck, it got chopped up in combat by a regular SoB squad ffs!

Hopefully GW will issue a faq or errata soon to clear up yet another case of shoddy rules writing

Does GW need to hold your **** for you when you need to take a leak? Man up and take responsibility for your own game, nancy.

Nurglitch wrote:Does GW need to hold your **** for you when you need to take a leak? Man up and take responsibility for your own game, nancy.

Umm, how is that even remotely relevant? Or do you just like the notion of holding other peoples ****s?

It's called a metaphor. You may have heard of them.

Apologies for the lack of clarity.

How is your metaphor even remotely relevant to this discussion?

It's called a question. You may have heard of them.

I actually agree with Nurglitch (and Grundz).

RAW Mawloc can do its thing.

I suppose we'll find out once-FAQed if GW thinks that Mawloc can do its thing, or if the Mawloc is the most stupidly overcosted and never-to-be-used-again model ever made, relegated to sitting on the shelf until the end of time with Nork and Arco-Flagellants.

Augustus wrote:
That's conjecture, declaring it is allowed doesn't make it so. It breaks the move within an inch of a model rule in a plain literal manner.

Except again, placing a model is not movement, if it was, there would be no need to specifically state you cannot place a model within 1" of an enemy, like for example marbo/lictor deployment. It would be inclusive to placing a model. So if you want to go forwards and say "further" infers that deep strike is movement, with the same logic you can infer that marbo/lictor deployment being restricted to more than 1" from an enemy is different from standard unit placement rules or they wouldn't be mentioned (codex overrides ruleboook), so standard unit placement must not have said limitation.

This is where the argument really goes wrong. This violates the permissive rules concept, rules say what you CAN do not what you CAN'T thats how rules work.

The simple illustration for this is "there isn't anything disallowing a player from taking 2 shooting phases, or from playing a bolt pistol as a lascannon" so that can be done right? It's not explicitly disallowed...

Again, you are using movement rules, on something that isn't movement, even if it /was/ movement, see above.

Actually both of the things you mention are specifically stated, but I'm sure if I look at it in agustus vision, I can find a sentence that uses different wording to avoid confusion and pick a single word that slightly infers my point and then keep repeating myself over and over.

I guess since the above reference tables, but not where the tables could be found, you try to substitute could use your own "I win" table for your unit statistics, which is about as valid as your mawloc argument.

And here we are at the crux of it. It hinges on whether the Mawloc can start it's DS under enemy units deliberately.

My take is that RAW it can't (must put model on board to begin DS, can't put model on enemy model) but RAI it's supposed to. Thus, the FAQ will probably be in the Mawloc's favor.

My problem is that I want to like the Mawloc. It's the tremors beastie. Totally cool for Nids. If it just did the AP 2 s6 blast template and then shoved things out of the way it'd be a cool beastie. I totally dig the Nid version of arty being landsharks, seems just about right. The telefrag tomfoolery ruins what could be a really cool gribbly.

This has turned into a Rules Debate. I'm going to lock this thread to keep it going even more off-topic (sorry 40kenthusiast, this isn't directed at you).