Sunderland Echo wrote:
Former Games Workshop boss charged with theft Published Date: 11 February 2010
A former shop manager has appeared in court charged with stealing thousands from his employer.
Christopher Mark Ferguson is alleged to have stolen more than £8,000 from the Games Workshop in High Street West, Sunderland.
Prosecutor Lee Poppett told Sunderland Magistrates' Court yesterday that Ferguson is accused of taking £7,940 between October and November last year and £243 in January this year.
Defence solicitor Bill Scanlan said his client entered no plea to the charge.
Magistrates ruled the case was too serious for them to deal with and it was adjourned until April 7, when it will be committed to Newcastle Crown Court.
Ferguson, of Brandling Street, Sunderland, was released on unconditional bail.
I didn't even know the Mackems had a GW store! Typical that the first I know of it is because of the theiving boss! (P.s. I'm a Mag... Hugs and kisses to all my Mackem neighbours!)
Thats a lot to go missing in too short amount of time.
Ther figure are very 'exact' I think this may be corporate stock value, as evaluated by the company.
I am reading this as, the store back stock fell into my bag, every GW store has some, ripped boxes, damaged stock old store armies. a lot of them do go into bags, when its done by the front door and for everyone noone minds.
I am doubting this is a hand in the till job, no way would any manager who was not on drugs at the time would lucky dip that amount so quickly. Over two years I can believe it but not in a month.
Orlanth wrote:I am doubting this is a hand in the till job, no way would any manager who was not on drugs at the time would lucky dip that amount so quickly. Over two years I can believe it but not in a month.
Unless he was very greedy and very stupid. Which being a Mackem, he may well be...
He wanted to become "legendary" and thought this was the quickest way to go about it?!
But seriously why would he need to steal? Especially when he was being renumerated by the colossal sum of £14K per year...........
Slightly OT Where I used to live our Local GW had managers appear then disappear fro various infractions and thefts.
The last time my buddy went in he saw the 'new' staff unpacking lots of blisters and boxes, apparently the last lot hadn't been restocking the shelves and had months and months of stock stuck piling up n the stock room.
Not saying that All GW staff are nitwits but they do seem to have a high proportion of idiots.
That's hilarious. When I used to work for a certain fast food chain, I got to do the frozen foods order because the manager was too lazy to do it, so I always ordered a couple of extra packs of sausage patties and took them home. I also wrote up the usage sheet, so I was able to cover my tracks. Those were the days...
I didn't even know the Mackems had a GW store! Typical that the first I know of it is because of the theiving boss! (P.s. I'm a Mag... Hugs and kisses to all my Mackem neighbours!)
Hey Brah, I live in Whitley Bay. Personally I sometimes believe that we should show tolerance to Sunderland folk and treat them as if they were human.
I just heard about this, I worked with the guy years ago at metro. Am shocked. I dont know how he could expect to get away with it. Sunderland store only makes a few hundred a day.
Always amuses me that people think they can get away with putting their hand in the till indefinitely. Once every so often perhaps, but a large sum of money over a period of time? The bean counters will always catch up with you.
I always think that stealing from the place you work is just plain stupid. I can't stand theiving full stop, but gakking on your own door step is painfully dumb. 9 times out of 10 you will get caught and that will result in you loosing your job and screwing up your chances of getting a new job because of references, or lack of. The age old excuse people give is that they aren't paid enoough, I say bull, it's down to greed.
However GW don't help themselves, as they pay such low amounts to those at managerial level they end up with two distinct types of managers. Type 1 are in it because they love the hobby. Type 2 are in it because they aren't good enough to manage anywhere else.
The type two's are the problem as they generaly see themselves as hard done by and their petty thievery as a way of "getting one back at the company which doesn't appreciate them" I am a firm believer that you are only as good as the job you do and the salary you earn, otherwise you would be doing as different job and earning a better salary instead of bitching about the one you already have.
GW are also known for putting staff in a position where they have to work extra, unsociable and often unhealthy hours for little recognition and low pay. Unfortuanatley this leads some of the less scrupulous staff members taking stock in lieu of percieved wages they should have recieved.
squilverine wrote:
However GW don't help themselves, as they pay such low amounts to those at managerial level.
GW are also known for putting staff in a position where they have to work extra, unsociable and often unhealthy hours for little recognition and low pay. Unfortuanatley this leads some of the less scrupulous staff members taking stock in lieu of percieved wages they should have recieved.
Management salaries in retail and leisure have never been that great anyway. I was paid about 13-15K as an Assistant Manager for Odeon. I'm not sure this is a specifically GW fault... Feel free to debate me though
squilverine wrote:
However GW don't help themselves, as they pay such low amounts to those at managerial level.
GW are also known for putting staff in a position where they have to work extra, unsociable and often unhealthy hours for little recognition and low pay. Unfortuanatley this leads some of the less scrupulous staff members taking stock in lieu of percieved wages they should have recieved.
Management salaries in retail and leisure have never been that great anyway. I was paid about 13-15K as an Assistant Manager for Odeon. I'm not sure this is a specifically GW fault... Feel free to debate me though
I agree that certain other sectors have similar low rates of pay, but these are reflected in the employee retention rates and this in turn reflects on areas such as customer service. Where I work one of our main clients is a large supermarket chain, the supermarket industry realised a long time ago that in order to get the best managers they needed to offer the best rates. GW expect a hell of a lot from their managers (and staff in general) for the money they pay.
@ Squilverine - I guess with any business you pay what you think you can get away with. I don't think upper management cared much about retention at Odeon because there was always somebody ready to fill a position (it was one company where you could really shoot up the ladder if you wanted to). I can't comment on what the GW situation is like, as never worked there.
On a related note, I once did a shift at another site and didn't do a safe check at the end of the night. The manager on duty the following morning phoned me to say that the safe was £1000 short. I'm not convinced he took it (and I certainly didn't), but got myself out of hot water by declaring the situation to upper management straight away whereas he wanted to mess about and go through waster paper bins ("Yes Ian, I took £1000 and threw it in the bin for laughs"). In the disciplinary proceedings that followed I got a written warning for "not following procedure" and he got a final written warning. Never worked out why he got the worse end of the deal...
A final written warning is usually preceded by several verbal and written warnings. I would assume he had a track record of such stunts occurring.
A lot of British businesses are just stupid about the way they manage staff. John Lewis is a sadly rare example of how to get it right. Their staff retention rate is much higher than most retail. As a result they not only save plenty on recruitment costs, they have a better informed and more dedicated workforce, which translates to better customer satisfaction and a higher profit rate.
Happens a lot believe me. This is somewhat common though I seldom hear of anyone stealing that much that fast. I did hear frommy old regional that one guy took 50k(here in the states) over two months. He just never turned in the deposits....can you say FELONY CHARGES
Here's a Memphis dirty little secret. They had a tool that was working at the facility who was was selling Forge World on ebay. Problem was that he was 'acquiring' them from the HC, having HC employees on the clock paint them up to order (under the guise that they were for customers; they were, his), and then shipping them out via the warehouse on GW's dime. When he was finally busted, they swept it under the rug and the guy just got to walk away because he was in good with the mangement.
With regard to the original story, it's not so much product to walk away with given the exhorbitant pricing schedule.
Well, he might have been *born* one, but pulling a stunt like that? He's sure naturalised to classic Mackem levels of stupidity pretty fast, living and working there! If he's found guilty of course...
Chris is not stupid enough to think he can lift 8k in months and not be caught. A quick calculation shows that to be over 1/3 of the average takings.
He's a family man so perhaps theres circumstances here and innocent till proven guilty of course.
Of course but remember that people can and will surprise you with their actions.
Maybe it's in protest over having to meet excessive Razorgor sales targets?!
I'm with the others in this thread on thinking the guy had a sudden and urgent need for money. A guy in EVE stole all his corp's assets, according to him to pay for his wife's surgery. Maybe a similar thing?
If he stole that much at once, assuming he is found guilty, he must have stolen it to sell. I agree he must have needed money very badly or he was just rock stupid. No way that much stuff can go missing that quickly and not get noticed fairly quickly.
40kenthusiast wrote:I'm with the others in this thread on thinking the guy had a sudden and urgent need for money. A guy in EVE stole all his corp's assets, according to him to pay for his wife's surgery. Maybe a similar thing?
Yeah that was the first thing that crossed my mind. There are no excuses from stealing its morally wrong yet... If it happened to me and in the balance was my wife's life and my own credibility... GW would be butt nakid.
I hate to say it, but for every thief who might have a 'good' reason to steal, there's a lot that just get greedy.
Managers stealing from stores is very common in retail, especially big corporate businesses. I wonder if part of it is the often massive gap between store staff and 'corporate' staff.
I know when I worked retail a lot of the managers for the company I worked for (a pet store chain) got caught doing things like this... One guy got caught processing returns of tenc ent crickets for hundreds of dollars!
Mind I dont think there's a "good" reason to steal, neither I was saying that... I just know even the most honest guy on earth would have problems not doing so if faced with a drastic situation.
The more I think about the more I think it must be something like that.
This guy wouldnt after working for GW for about 15 years just turn round and steal a massive amount he couldnt hope to get away with unless there was a good reason.
Perhaps he owed some unsavory sorts? Perhaps he was about to lose the family home? I dont know, but I do know this guy pretty well as I worked with him for a year and I always thought he was a straight up family man.
My sister's old manager did this (she works at a petrol station) and it was a bit more money IIRC. Turns out the manager had a compulsive gambling problem.
Here in St. Louis, when there was a GW store, an employee got caught stealing. He was forging bits orders (before they revamped their bits ordering system and before they did away with it entirely) and not paying for them.
"Just bits" you're thinking. Right?
Well, back then you could order an entire model as bits. So, if you order 1 of each tank sprue, you got the whole tank.
After the case was over, they did some promotion and used all the recovered stuff that couldn't be reused by GW as give-aways in the store.
You realise that as the guy's British (well, Geordie ), his wife's vital surgery will be covered under the NHS, so that excuse is out. Also, it seems like some rather odd amounts, so is it all money or did he steal product?
Thats the thing with living in the UK, the welfare and benefits system, state education and NHS mean that there is literaly no good reason to steal. The main reasons for theft over here are
1 Feeding a drug/alcohol addiction
2 Greed
3 Trying to live beyond your means
4 Trying to pay off dodgy loan sharks because you have lived beyond your means
If the guy stole £8000 over two months you have to question the company for not flagging this sooner. Bad stock takes, high wasteage (shrinkage) and the odd few pounds going missing are explainable, but anything over £10 missing normaly sets alarm bells ringing with larger companies. My guess was he was in some serious debt and was desperate.
Talking of thieving and things getting swept under the carpet, I remember hearing of a guy in the IT procurement team at a company I used to work for who got busted for buying stuff and selling it on Ebay, apparently the police were involved and raided a garage which had a few thousand pounds worth of lap tops and other bits. The company however did not press charges because his daddy was a director
40kenthusiast wrote:I'm with the others in this thread on thinking the guy had a sudden and urgent need for money. A guy in EVE stole all his corp's assets, according to him to pay for his wife's surgery. Maybe a similar thing?
Nope, he's from the U.K., I hear that's one of those other industrialized nations (I.E. all the other ones) that actually provides healthcare to its citizens.
fullheadofhair wrote:only on Dakka can we have a two page debate about some thieving bastard manager who stole from the shop he worked at.
He stole. He was stupid as basic controls mean any large discrepencies are caught at small store level. He gets punished. Thread ends.
Who gives a crap about "potential" reasons he "had" to do it.
scuse me!!??!
Well to hell with the judicial system, anyone who is accused of stealign automatically did it and there shoul;d just be the death penalty cos there can never be any mitigating or exceptional circumstances.
so speaks fullheadofhair. Thank god I dont live in your world dude, sieg heil indeed.
fullheadofhair wrote:only on Dakka can we have a two page debate about some thieving bastard manager who stole from the shop he worked at.
He stole. He was stupid as basic controls mean any large discrepencies are caught at small store level. He gets punished. Thread ends.
Who gives a crap about "potential" reasons he "had" to do it.
scuse me!!??!
Well to hell with the judicial system, anyone who is accused of stealign automatically did it and there shoul;d just be the death penalty cos there can never be any mitigating or exceptional circumstances.
so speaks fullheadofhair. Thank god I dont live in your world dude, sieg heil indeed.
Clearly you've never read any of our archived recasting debates...
fullheadofhair wrote:only on Dakka can we have a two page debate about some thieving bastard manager who stole from the shop he worked at.
He stole. He was stupid as basic controls mean any large discrepencies are caught at small store level. He gets punished. Thread ends.
Who gives a crap about "potential" reasons he "had" to do it.
scuse me!!??!
Well to hell with the judicial system, anyone who is accused of stealign automatically did it and there shoul;d just be the death penalty cos there can never be any mitigating or exceptional circumstances.
so speaks fullheadofhair. Thank god I dont live in your world dude, sieg heil indeed.
oh do grow up
The point I am making is how did a newspaper article about a person being charged with theft get to two pages (inc my two posts). Debating whether or not he did it because of medical bills???? What does that have to do with whether or not he is guilty. In UK, legal reporting restrictions prevent many details coming out so anything is just pointless wild speculation.
Come on - this has got to be one of the most ridiculous threads going.
fullheadofhair wrote:only on Dakka can we have a two page debate about some thieving bastard manager who stole from the shop he worked at.
He stole. He was stupid as basic controls mean any large discrepencies are caught at small store level. He gets punished. Thread ends.
Who gives a crap about "potential" reasons he "had" to do it.
scuse me!!??!
Well to hell with the judicial system, anyone who is accused of stealign automatically did it and there shoul;d just be the death penalty cos there can never be any mitigating or exceptional circumstances.
so speaks fullheadofhair. Thank god I dont live in your world dude, sieg heil indeed.
oh do grow up
The point I am making is how did a newspaper article about a person being charged with theft get to two pages (inc my two posts). Debating whether or not he did it because of medical bills???? What does that have to do with whether or not he is guilty. In UK, legal reporting restrictions prevent many details coming out so anything is just pointless wild speculation.
Come on - this has got to be one of the most ridiculous threads going.
Here is something interesting to think about.
Take the number of Dakka member that exists , and think how many of them have something to say about the incident.
You'll be lucky if it isnt 1000 + pages if they all decided to voice their opinion.
After all , even you already contributed 2 post out of the 30+ replies in this thread so far , which is atleast 6%
fullheadofhair wrote:only on Dakka can we have a two page debate about some thieving bastard manager who stole from the shop he worked at.
He stole. He was stupid as basic controls mean any large discrepencies are caught at small store level. He gets punished. Thread ends.
Who gives a crap about "potential" reasons he "had" to do it.
scuse me!!??!
Well to hell with the judicial system, anyone who is accused of stealign automatically did it and there shoul;d just be the death penalty cos there can never be any mitigating or exceptional circumstances.
so speaks fullheadofhair. Thank god I dont live in your world dude, sieg heil indeed.
oh do grow up
The point I am making is how did a newspaper article about a person being charged with theft get to two pages (inc my two posts). Debating whether or not he did it because of medical bills???? What does that have to do with whether or not he is guilty. In UK, legal reporting restrictions prevent many details coming out so anything is just pointless wild speculation.
Come on - this has got to be one of the most ridiculous threads going.
Simply put? Threads like these get really going because the posts are either in regards to company policies(OMG! they shouldn't legal action him! he's not hurting anyone but a faceless corporation!) or just people posting silly things to bump their post counts.
And then you get the comments that are just...odd. Things like the morality of stealing(as long as you have a good reason!).
Because hey, laws are just guidelines! Not like...set in stone or anything!
Didn't you realise that there are new laws that bypass the old laws. They make are old laws subjective to certain moral standings. Meaning that aslong as you have a good moral reason for breaking the law they just tell you not to do it again?
Kanluwen wrote:
Simply put? Threads like these get really going because the posts are either in regards to company policies(OMG! they shouldn't legal action him! he's not hurting anyone but a faceless corporation!) or just people posting silly things to bump their post counts.
And then you get the comments that are just...odd. Things like the morality of stealing(as long as you have a good reason!).
Because hey, laws are just guidelines! Not like...set in stone or anything!
I know, they shouldn't take legal action on him! Stupid corporations!
Ha, maybe he was pretending to be a Dark Eldar pirate and stealing stuff.
All though, he could have had a good excuse for taking stuff. Maybe his kid's were sick or something.
chaplaingrabthar wrote:So, assuming it was product, what could he take to hit 8K? Forgeworld stuff?
GW dont hold FW stuff though , unless they were ordered specifically ( which is incredible easy to be caught since people
are waiting and expecting it )
I want to know what he took too!
Im guessing last year it was goldswords , this year it was goldvermins.
It would be funny if he was busted in February for costigors , but that would offset too much for GW
Kanluwen wrote:No reason is good enough to break the law.
Imagine your wife is terminally ill. She can be saved by a new medicine invented by a doctor in your town.
The medicine costs $1,000 but you only have $500. You offer the doctor this much but he refuses to sell. You know that the ingredients needed to make the medicine cost $100.
I agree with many of the points put into this debate I remember a while back when a manager of one Games Workshop I frequented stole and actively "gave away" stock to regulars he was promptly fired and no legal action taken.
How do I know this?? because 5 months down the line he was back in the EXACT store he stole from acting as if gak happened.
Dont ask me why GW decided to not prosecute in this instance... Maybe its because it was the ninties and legislation then was a lot more leinient may make sense as nowadays theft and bad book keeping are seen as a massive liability to companies and when the revenue man comes and sniffs around everything has to be spanky clean.
I also remember a store I worked for a while back the manager before the one that I had was always up to negative gak like stealing,palming over stock off smoking weed and having sex in the toilets but yet again when he was found out he was ushered out of the back door and not prosecuted this was 2003-2004 maybe different strokes i suppose (sorry about the pun dear god so sorry).
GW in my memories as it serves always had overstock and poorly managed stock take and replenishment I remember until recently that they would leave stock all over the shop unstocked blisters and army sets I always remembered thinking "Its a matter of time before something goes for a unpaid walk".
Newport store had a ruptured sewer or something flooded the stockroom they shifted tons of old Empire army sets if memory serves..........So really doesnt surprise me theres a culture there of second hand palming and stealing.
Kanluwen wrote:No reason is good enough to break the law.
I can't tell if you are serious or not (internet) but this is so wrong. There is always a good enough reason.
A bomb is sitting in a power station. Trespassing is illegal. If you press a button on it, it disarms. If you don't, millions die. Do you stick to "No reason is good enough to break the law."
Stealing is just wrong period. I'm sure you'd be hollering like holy hell if someone robbed you blind then I could come along and say "Oh I'm sure they had their reasons. Get over it already."
@ ph34r: whilst there may be a good enough reason for that, stealing little plastic miniatures is just pathetic and there is no reason good enough for what he did.
@ ph34r: whilst there may be a good enough reason for that, stealing little plastic miniatures is just pathetic and there is no reason good enough for what he did.
I also lol'd heheheh double shades.
Yea plastic men+stealing do not = cool so yea kids dont do it!
twistinthunder wrote:@ ph34r: whilst there may be a good enough reason for that, stealing little plastic miniatures is just pathetic and there is no reason good enough for what he did.
I don't disagree that stealing stuff is almost always bad, I just disagree with your blanket statement.
Awesome CSI toon. I think we post on these random threads because it gets into discussions beyond just the actual hobby. Now I'm not justifying his actions, but any business that lowballs employee pay as much as possible is going to get a lot of people who don't want to be there. Retail is a pretty thankless and sometimes degrading way to make a living. If you are or fell like you are treated like gak than its easy to rationalize almost anything. Even... *gasp* killing a man! "What would you do for a klondike bar?!"
Now seperate from that is my own opinion. I don't care if stealing is morally wrong. If I knew I could get away with it I would do it to a large business. Not where I work though. You shouldn't gak where you eat. Often the people with the most power or authority break the law regularly and often much worse things than stealing. I come from a cop family and the stuff some of them get up to is nuts and its a well paying job compared to retail. Granted someone is eventually hurt by theft, but in this world I look out for me and mine. I would also do anything I think I have to do to keep my family safe. If that makes me a bad person than so be it. If religion is right then I'll eventually pay for it. Pretty much all laws (going back thousands of years) have been written by the strongest or wealthiest and if not breaking them they have always bent and manipulated them for their own gain.
stealing little plastic miniatures is just pathetic and there is no reason good enough for what he did.
Exactly, someone tell me how stealing miniatures even compares to disarming a bomb or saving your dying wife.
Unless you're counting on selling all of that gak on eBay to get the rest of the cash for the cure, but still, "everyone has their reasons". If someone robs your home they were probably just really desperate for money, maybe their children are starving? Who are you then to call them out on their wrong-doing?
I don't care what anyone's reasons are, personally. Stealing is wrong. Doubly so if someone steals from me, because...well, I'm me, and I could give a gak about you.
stealing little plastic miniatures is just pathetic and there is no reason good enough for what he did.
Exactly, someone tell me how stealing miniatures even compares to disarming a bomb or saving your dying wife.
Unless you're counting on selling all of that gak on eBay to get the rest of the cash for the cure, but still, "everyone has their reasons". If someone robs your home they were probably just really desperate for money, maybe their children are starving? Who are you then to call them out on their wrong-doing?
I don't care what anyone's reasons are, personally. Stealing is wrong. Doubly so if someone steals from me, because...well, I'm me, and I could give a gak about you.
Oh Sidstyler we're not bringing up that age old myth of poverty in the first world driving us to acts of heinous miniature theft are we?
The guy is pathetic. If someone can get away with stealing because he was 'in desperate need of money', then the next guy will get away with murder because he just really wanted to. It was just like the gunman who prayed with the couple he just robbed before taking their car as his get-away vehicle.
Kind of dumb to come out in the public stating you will steal from large corporations. I am curious, have you stolen in the past and if so from whom and what did you steal?
I just read about a senior citizen who stated as a justification to robbing three banks that his nest egg was depleted. He will be spending several years in jail as a result of the robberies so that will keep a roof over his head and food to eat. Maybe they have some toy soldiers there as well to play mandollies if he gets bored.
G
WarsmithDave wrote:Awesome CSI toon. I think we post on these random threads because it gets into discussions beyond just the actual hobby. Now I'm not justifying his actions, but any business that lowballs employee pay as much as possible is going to get a lot of people who don't want to be there. Retail is a pretty thankless and sometimes degrading way to make a living. If you are or fell like you are treated like gak than its easy to rationalize almost anything. Even... *gasp* killing a man! "What would you do for a klondike bar?!"
Now seperate from that is my own opinion. I don't care if stealing is morally wrong. If I knew I could get away with it I would do it to a large business. Not where I work though. You shouldn't gak where you eat. Often the people with the most power or authority break the law regularly and often much worse things than stealing. I come from a cop family and the stuff some of them get up to is nuts and its a well paying job compared to retail. Granted someone is eventually hurt by theft, but in this world I look out for me and mine. I would also do anything I think I have to do to keep my family safe. If that makes me a bad person than so be it. If religion is right then I'll eventually pay for it. Pretty much all laws (going back thousands of years) have been written by the strongest or wealthiest and if not breaking them they have always bent and manipulated them for their own gain.
Nice one Ageof!
surely H would say, "What have we here?" as he does that thing with his shades!
This guy has been arrested but that does NOT automatically make him guilty. Until the guy admits to committing the offence or it is proven in court, he is assumed to be innocent.
But no worries, Horatio will sort it and then with hand on hips, his jacket pushed back, looks up and turns head left.
My money is on it being an old friend of Warwick's who is implicated in drug smuggling via assembled Rhinos.
The CSI team blew the whole thing open when they found the body of a high class hooker wearing nought but a red and white striped footie shirt while Prokofiev blasted out of the Hi-Fi speakers.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
The CSI team blew the whole thing open when they found the body of a high class hooker wearing nought but a red and white striped footie shirt while Prokofiev blasted out of the Hi-Fi speakers.
Someone been googling Mackems?
It's a shame it didn't happen in Newcastle, then the music could have been provided by any number of local boys like Sting or maybe Dire Straits.
So stealing a gun from the guy who is about to shoot you in the face is wrong? Summary of all arguments: "Life may not be black or white all the time, but it doesn't mean you're not a moron."
But when your defense attorney doesn't even enter a "Not Guilty" plea?
I've not come across this before, Kanluwen,
so am not sure why they do it either. Apparently it is common practice at this stage in the proceedings. It is something to do with the defence not having the full details at the time, and then the formal plea of guilty/not guilty is made at the trial itself.
It doesn't mean that the "defense not having the full details at the time" mate.
It means that the defendant informed his legal consul of something that prohibits filing of a "Not Guilty" plea, and a refusal to enter a "Guilty" plea.
Attorneys would be held for legal repercussions if they allowed a "Not Guilty" plea to be entered when they've been told something that prohibits it.
At least admit there are some times it's ok to steal, even if ridiculously rare. That's the only point I'm driving at. Stealing intelligence from people who intend to use it negatively, stealing an animal from abusive owners, stealing pills from someone who intends to abuse them. Stealing is not a universal wrong :p
It doesn't mean that the "defense not having the full details at the time" mate.
It means that the defendant informed his legal consul of something that prohibits filing of a "Not Guilty" plea, and a refusal to enter a "Guilty" plea.
Attorneys would be held for legal repercussions if they allowed a "Not Guilty" plea to be entered when they've been told something that prohibits it.
I refer my learned friend to the following statement:
If you decide not to indicate a plea, or to plead not guilty, then the magistrates will go ahead and decide (with our involvement as above), whether to deal with the case themselves.
It is possible that you are still not yet ready to plead, if for example, some information or other remains outstanding, and we would then ask for an adjournment. Even if you decide to have the matter dealt with by the magistrates, they still have the choice later to send you to the Crown Court, if their sentencing powers prove insufficient.
Kanluwen wrote:No reason is good enough to break the law.
As a general rule, breaking the law is, of course, "wrong", but that statement alone assumes the infallibility of the law and therefore the people who wrote the law. It also assumes total foreknowledge of all possible future circumstances at the time of writing the law. Finally, it suggests one of two things: Either, if you are a religious person, that the law of man supercedes that of whichever religion you ascribe to, or, otherwise, that if you are non-religious, you are unable to make decisions for yourselves in certain situations and are therefore abdicating your own responsibility to be a good and moral person to the decisions made by another.
Of course the laws are there and fully established to make sure we have a framework within which we can all function, and it is not right to break them just because you disagree with them. However, if people all over the world assumed that whatever was on the statute books was true and good, there would not be people like Gandhi, who broke endless laws established by the British Imperial presence to maintain British domination of the region. No people like Nelson Mandela, who broke laws in defiance of the White Minority rule in South Africa. No people like Aung San Suu Kyi in Burma, fighting for democracy in the face of an unelected regime. Just because there is a law that says it, it does not make it "right". It would have been a sad thing indeed if any of those people mentioned had said, "Well, I disagree, but hey, what can you do? I'd better keep quite and go home, like they say."
Further, and to avoid accusations of completely going off on a massive tangent, a person may break the law in the fullest knowledge that what they are doing is wrong, but without an alternative. There have been many cases of people who break the law under duress; often partners in abusive relationships. In fact, "to avoid a savage beating" is regarded in law as a good enough reason to break other laws. People who are in fear for their own safety, or that of children, should, if possible, find alternatives to breaking the law, but if your choices are limited by circumstances to "steal for me or watch your child beaten", I would strongly argue that is a "good enough" reason to break the law. It is not a "good" reason, but it is "good enough".
So, to summarise, there are good reasons to break laws, where those laws themselves are unjust. There are no good reasons to break just and reasonable laws, but there are good enough reasons to break just and reasonable laws.
So, Gandhi was wrong to break British laws in a peaceful way to achieve independence for his country?
Mandela was wrong to oppose Apartheid in a peaceful way?
Aug San Suu Kyi is wrong to oppose the illegitimate regime in Burma?
These are circumstances in which people have been completely disenfranchised by the system. Are you suggesting that they have to work within it? Do you really feel they could possibly be successful in this way?
Just because a law is on the statute books, that does not mean you have to follow it if it is an unjust law. Of course there were consequences for all of those people for breaking the law, but that doesn't mean it was right. Mandela broke the law as it stood many times, and as a result spent a good portion of his adult life incarcerated. Are you saying it was right that he spent that time in prison, just because he broke an unjust law? If Mandela and people like him had not broken those laws, do you think Apartheid would have ended?
Now, I know all of those things are completely different to stealing, but you made a blanket statement and you have tried to defend it, so we can get back to the case in the original post if you prefer, but do you really feel you can argue this case?
No, I didn't. Get over yourself with the examples of social change.
Laws are laws. You DO have to follow laws, while they're on the books. In most cases, following the revocation of the aforementioned unjust laws, the people who were catalysts for change are given pardons.
Mandela wasn't, but wtf do you expect? If he'd been out in public for most of the time while apartheid was ending he'd have been shot by pro-apartheid members of the public. For all you or I know it was done for his own safety.
You said it is wrong to break laws. Mandela did break laws. He broke laws that existed at the time. No pardon gave him back 27 years. There were laws against him even campaigning against those laws. He could not have opposed them without breaking them. Such is still the case in China even today.
If you now wish to qualify your statement by restricting it to "just laws", then good, I am glad you have seen it my way. If not, well, I can't even understand your point of view, let alone agree with it.
Of course, you are now suggesting Mandela may have been in prison "for his own safety". It is an unusual point of view, and not one that I believe was ever suggested by the minority white rule in South Africa, either at the time, or since, but I can't be sure, of course.
We can get back to arguing about whether it is acceptable to break laws when under duress, for example, threat of physical punishment by someone who has gained a position of unreasonable dominance over another in an abusive relationship. As I said, this is not a "good" reason to break a law, but maybe "good enough".
You are only as free as you think you, and the only freedoms you are guaranteed are the ones you're willing to fight for. Laws go the same way. In a raw and un-judged world, nothing is illegal unless someone can make you pay for it.
Skinnattittar wrote:You are only as free as you think you, and the only freedoms you are guaranteed are the ones you're willing to fight for. Laws go the same way. In a raw and un-judged world, nothing is illegal unless someone can make you pay for it.
"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose" - Kris Kristofferson (via Janis Joplin)
What in nine shades of Hades does Ghandi have to do with stealing from a company you work for???
G
Fifty wrote:So, Gandhi was wrong to break British laws in a peaceful way to achieve independence for his country?
Mandela was wrong to oppose Apartheid in a peaceful way?
Aug San Suu Kyi is wrong to oppose the illegitimate regime in Burma?
These are circumstances in which people have been completely disenfranchised by the system. Are you suggesting that they have to work within it? Do you really feel they could possibly be successful in this way?
Just because a law is on the statute books, that does not mean you have to follow it if it is an unjust law. Of course there were consequences for all of those people for breaking the law, but that doesn't mean it was right. Mandela broke the law as it stood many times, and as a result spent a good portion of his adult life incarcerated. Are you saying it was right that he spent that time in prison, just because he broke an unjust law? If Mandela and people like him had not broken those laws, do you think Apartheid would have ended?
Now, I know all of those things are completely different to stealing, but you made a blanket statement and you have tried to defend it, so we can get back to the case in the original post if you prefer, but do you really feel you can argue this case?
Kanluwen wrote:
Very rarely do mitigating circumstances come up in robbery/theft cases. They're pretty damn clear-cut in that regard.
Rarity doesn't really matter though. If it can come up, then its possible that it will. That's sufficient to warrant concern or interest.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Green Blow Fly wrote:What in nine shades of Hades does Ghandi have to do with stealing from a company you work for???
G
He answered that question.
Fifty wrote:
Now, I know all of those things are completely different to stealing, but you made a blanket statement and you have tried to defend it, so we can get back to the case in the original post if you prefer, but do you really feel you can argue this case?
Kilkrazy wrote:Imagine your wife is terminally ill. She can be saved by a new medicine invented by a doctor in your town.
The medicine costs $1,000 but you only have $500. You offer the doctor this much but he refuses to sell. You know that the ingredients needed to make the medicine cost $100.
What is the problem? You know enough about the ingredients and that they only cost $100 and you have $500. Buy them, make the medicine and save your wife already!
Unless we just engaging in hyperbole, in which case I would ask what you would do if curing your wife required the sacrifice of a newborn baby? 100? A thousand? A planet?
sleazy wrote:I just heard about this, I worked with the guy years ago at metro. Am shocked. I dont know how he could expect to get away with it. Sunderland store only makes a few hundred a day.
It was always low on stock but still!
It is a 1 man store in Sunderland centre.
oh and he's a geordie not a mackem.
Ahh. This explains a few things. The one man store concept does require too much trust, but it can work so long as you have floating workers to come in and help. Sadly GW doesnt do that, One man completely alone is wrong for so many different reasons.
Anyway what puzzles me is the amount stolen over the timeframe. This just cannot be cash. I doubt the turnover is that big and you would have to be a bigger cretin than Jervis to want to be in a position to claim the entire till contents were stolen two months running, and a bigger cretin yet (Haines level) to be the area manager likely to fall for it.
I smell a resale fraud, delivery fraud or some other scam.
40kenthusiast wrote:I'm with the others in this thread on thinking the guy had a sudden and urgent need for money. A guy in EVE stole all his corp's assets, according to him to pay for his wife's surgery. Maybe a similar thing?
How does this work. I doubt most hospitals actually consider ISK acceptable currency.
Kilkrazy wrote:Imagine your wife is terminally ill. She can be saved by a new medicine invented by a doctor in your town.
The medicine costs $1,000 but you only have $500. You offer the doctor this much but he refuses to sell. You know that the ingredients needed to make the medicine cost $100.
What is the problem? You know enough about the ingredients and that they only cost $100 and you have $500. Buy them, make the medicine and save your wife already!
Unless we just engaging in hyperbole, in which case I would ask what you would do if curing your wife required the sacrifice of a newborn baby? 100? A thousand? A planet?
The question I posed is a very simplified one from the Ethical Development Defining Issues Tests.
It's like one of those personality tests where there are defined answers A or B. For the purpose of the test there is no C.
Your answer is creative, however suppose for the purpose of the test you are a carpenter and don't know how to compound the medicine.
Anyway, the idea of the test isn't to pick a right answer. It is to test the ethical thinking of the test subject.
I posed the question in this thread to show that there are ethical dilemmas in real life.
This same situation has arisen IRL in the case of anti-retroviral drugs which are under patent but are too expensive for third world countries to manufacture for the use of their population. Their solution was to license the manufacturing process at a reduced royalty. The question then arises of whether the cheap version of the drug should be made available to high income countries where patients should be paying the full cost.
Green Blow Fly wrote:What in nine shades of Hades does Ghandi have to do with stealing from a company you work for???
Like I already said in the very post you quoted, and as pointed out by Dogma, nothing!
I was trying to make Kanluwen stop making absolute statements, qualify them with addendums and caveats, but then still claim that the absolute statement is true.
40kenthusiast wrote:I'm with the others in this thread on thinking the guy had a sudden and urgent need for money. A guy in EVE stole all his corp's assets, according to him to pay for his wife's surgery. Maybe a similar thing?
How does this work. I doubt most hospitals actually consider ISK acceptable currency.
I was thinking that you just do what most Americans would do in that situation. You get the surgery done and then file bankrupcy to be clear of the debt,or pay it off in small chunks over time.
sleazy wrote:I just heard about this, I worked with the guy years ago at metro. Am shocked. I dont know how he could expect to get away with it. Sunderland store only makes a few hundred a day.
It was always low on stock but still!
It is a 1 man store in Sunderland centre.
oh and he's a geordie not a mackem.
Ahh. This explains a few things. The one man store concept does require too much trust, but it can work so long as you have floating workers to come in and help. Sadly GW doesnt do that, One man completely alone is wrong for so many different reasons.
Anyway what puzzles me is the amount stolen over the timeframe. This just cannot be cash. I doubt the turnover is that big and you would have to be a bigger cretin than Jervis to want to be in a position to claim the entire till contents were stolen two months running, and a bigger cretin yet (Haines level) to be the area manager likely to fall for it.
I smell a resale fraud, delivery fraud or some other scam.
Thank you for grasping the point.
We can argue all day about th unfairness of law and law vs morality but the big question here is what the hell happened and what made someone think they could get away this something so extreme.
Hugs and kisses to all my Mackem neighbours!)
