We've all played Halo once (if you haven't you are not yet a member of the 21st century, either that or you have a job)
Spartans are super soldiers wearing super duper armor. They're pretty strong and can do a bunch of stuff: activate alien energy bridges, fly purple hover crafts, use a bunch of weapons, etc.
They also have a motion tracker, and a handy dandy flashlight

Space Marines, however wear huge bulky armor and are equipped with semi-automatic grenade launchers (or burst-fire depending on the fluff you read)
They're effing strong, and have many special abilities that vary from book to book. (I just read in their codex that they can spit acid, strong enough to melt through metal).
The most notable, I think is when Uriel Ventris eats the brain of a Tau and learns how to fly a piranha in Courage and Honor

So who would win, one on one?

SM is armed with the standard equipment:
Bolt pistol/ Boltgun
CC weapon
Frag/ Krak grenades
power armor

The Spartan is given:
Battle rifle
2 SMGS
Frag grenades
and the spartan armor (which is spelled like mjlrnruq or something just as hard to remember)



My money is on the SM

SM, obviously. The clone does not surpass the original in this case.

Astartes power armour is thicker than Spartan armour (just look at it), and the Bolter is an absurdly powerful assault weapon (Seriously, a high penetration, recoilless, grenade launcher? I'd be gaking myself no matter what armour I was wearing).

So here's basically the 40kverse equivalant. Carapace armored, slightly enhanced human with an autogun and two autopistols versus an astartes... Yeah, I'll let you decide.

Agreed, there aren't to many conceptualized so called "heroes" in our fiction that could take a Space Marine. Maybe Wolverine, but he'd be crying like a girl afterwords, asking his mommy for band-aids and to kiss it and make it better! lol.

Superman could, considering he can shatter reality by singing. After all, he's a god mode sue.

Nah. Superman would be hurt by the krypto-ceramite that the one marine's armor he faces is made of. Nothing like C.S. Goto's writing.

I agree that any of the literally invunerable supers could and would win. Short of that however, I couldn't see spidey taking down an astartes any time soon.

Batman vs SM, with preperation time... Weapon of choice?
Stairs.

Mother of God, not this bollocks again.

The Dreadnote wrote:Mother of God, not this bollocks again.

+1

Emperors Faithful wrote:

The Dreadnote wrote:Mother of God, not this bollocks again.

+1

Indeed.

Just to clarify TC, the armor is called Mjolnir, and it's not hard to remember at all, atleast not if you keep a healthy understanding of Mythology.

Mjolnir is the Hammer of Thor.

I'm just going to assume you know who Thor is....

I'd say the spartan would be able to take a SM..

If it was a one on one and the SM had no armour and his hands tied behind his back and two 4tonne ball and chains on his ankles...

I think the Spartan could take a Space Marine out to dinner, he knows the town better and could probably recommend a good wine to go with the cheese appetizer.

Everyone knows multilasers fire kryptonite.

Really? Is this even a question? Foot-thick armor against modern weaponry? I don't even think the Spartan would ding the armor. One bolter shot would kill a Spartan.

The Spartan would have a chance if armed with an energy sword or a gravity hammer. They're basically inferior(?) versions of the powersword and thunderhammer, respectively.

Just to clarify TC, the armor is called Mjolnir, and it's not hard to remember at all, atleast not if you keep a healthy understanding of Mythology.

Mjolnir is the Hammer of Thor.

I'm just going to assume you know who Thor is....

Um, the blond beef at the local gym?

Spartan.

His energy shield is proof against all the SM's weapons as long as he can manoeuvre to cover to let it recharge. He is much more manoeuvrable, and he has a helmet.

Kilkrazy wrote:Spartan.

His energy shield is proof against all the SM's weapons as long as he can manoeuvre to cover to let it recharge. He is much more manoeuvrable, and he has a helmet.

The energy shield follows normal armour conventions. It is easily destroyed by plasma, it gets worn down by bullets, etc. The difference is that the energy shield runs out, unlike Astartes armour.

And the other difference is that the shield recharges...

Unlike Astartes armor.

No, the recharging is a limitation, not a benefit. The Astartes armour soaks up fire easily, while the Mjolnir requires the user to hide for a while while it comes back.

What?
That's one of the silliest statements I've ever heard.

To put it a different way, Space Marine armour doesn't need regeneration.

Wait, since when are astartes not manoeuvrable? If I recall, they have better balance and speed and dexterity than any regular human. I'd say the same about them against spartans. This idea is ridiculous. Firstly, and astartes has a helmet, Killkrazy.

Secondly, if I'm not mistaken, a grenade does indeed take out a Spartan's shields... Oh wait, that's right, Astartes are firing frag grenades out of a shotgun and pumping three-four into him before he can move. The idea that his sheilds would do ANYTHING is ridiculous.

And I'd LOVE to see a SM with a chainsword against a Spartan with an energy sword.

Astartes: "Ouch, you stuck my lung and cut off my left hand... Bye."

Spartan: "OH WHAT TH-"

Pika_power wrote:To put it a different way, Space Marine armour doesn't need regeneration.

Yeah, I got that.

I'm not understanding where you call the ability to regenerate a shield that can stop high impact plasma mortar rounds a "limitation".

If an Astarte's armor is damaged, they can't affect field repairs(outside of a quick-fix sealant to fill in the gap temporarily, namely to prevent atmospheric leaks), or they can't let it recharge.

Once that armor is damaged, it's damaged until they get back to a specialist to fix it.

A limitation in that it's required to regenerate to get to the same standards as the Astartes.

Also, the Mjolnir can still be damaged as soon as the shields are down. Unless the armour is organic, it's unable to repair a hole in it.

So it's the same defence as the Astartes, but the defence needs to recharge and while it's recharging, it can be damaged.

Except it still takes quite a bit to damage Mjolnir armor, even without the shields mate.

At least, if we're going by *actual background material* rather than "Hurr, I can headshot peoples wif snipar riflez!" game related experiences.

Add in the fact that Mjolnir can be interfaced with a 'smart' AI who can essentially boost the Spartan's combat capabilities to demigod levels(the limitation being: there just aren't that MANY 'smart' AIs), the multiple redundant systems present in Mjolnir itself(Astartes can't HALO jump out of a dropship without jump packs/grav chutes and avoid turning themselves into paste).

And it all leads to the fact that this is as stupid of an argument as who would win in a fight between Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee.

Let's also realize that the weapons a spartan uses are pretty pathetic in general, barring the Spazer and such.

Spartan basic weapon: Assault Rifle. Does nothing to Astartes.

Astartes basic weapon: Rapid fire, penetrating, no recoil grenade launcher thing.

You really think the Spartan would come out on top?

Assault Rifle: Varying ammunition loads. HE-AP would be pretty nasty on Astartes. Especially going for headshots. or the optics on the helmet.

But yeah, sure. we can just stack it as much as we want in favor of the Astartes.

I beleive the fair fight would be a Scout vs a spartan..... Same type of armour, and almost same type of weapons..... while, that shotgun might be more powerful then the spartanslug thrower...lol

Kanluwen wrote:Assault Rifle: Varying ammunition loads. HE-AP would be pretty nasty on Astartes. Especially going for headshots. or the optics on the helmet.

But yeah, sure. we can just stack it as much as we want in favor of the Astartes.

It's funny cause you're not only beating a dead horse, but also reverse stacking in a would-be dead man's favor. From fluff standards, an Astartes is 10x more powerful in endurance, armor, and weaponry. And yet you're comparing armor penetrating ammo to basically a grenade, when said AP ammo is weak sauce in comparison. Can a Spartan lose an arm and continue fighting well, no. Can a Spartan take a direct headshot and live to tell the tale, no. Can a spartan's protection be ruined for even a few seconds, a gap more then easily large enough for him to be killed, OH YEAH. So stop stacking things for the downright underdog when the Astartes is infintely more advanced in many ways and strengths.

From fluff standards, an Astartes would be VERY evenly matched with a Spartan--discounting armor.

The only difference, frankly, is the make-up of their bodies.

A Spartan has a dense musculature and skeletal structure(by the by--your comment about "a Spartan losing an arm and continuing to fight well, no"--an Astartes can't either. Both can, however, block out the pain and keep fighting) while also possessing ridiculous dexterity and agility--but more importantly for the *universe they're created for*, they still outwardly look human, if a little pale.

An Astartes, however, is an entirely different beast.
And I do actually mean "beast", given that Astartes are pretty much their own genetics pathway.
You've got a larger body type, with the dense musculature and skeletal system. Add in the redundant organs and you get a suitable supersoldier for, again, *the universe they're in*.

Either way, your points are about as intelligently thought out and your comparisons as situational as the scrubs who did "Ultimate Warrior" and compared things like ninjas fighting Spartan hoplites, etc.

You have to take into acount differing fighting styles, weapons, and armor.

First, regardless of how powerful SM are they are designed and trained to fight in squads.

Spartans are also trained to fight in squads, despite the fact that nearly all of them died and that bit is gone now...

A spartan may very well be able to take on a SM 1 on 1. Both soldiers have shown above human strength and dexterity.

I would say in a 1 on 1 fight a fully equiped Spartan Vs a Fully Equiped SM it would be an even fight even when taking into account the Bolter which would likely kill a spartan in one to two hits.

Spartans are genetically enhanced, and as stated before can have AIs helping them. I think the bolter would be taken out of the variable rather quickley simply by waiting for the SM to expend his ammunition, from there the Sparta knows how much ammo is in a magazine. Now he can wait for the SM to fire again and as soon as the Magazine is expended he can close the gap and enter melee.

As to who would win in Melee.... I would have to say the SM most likely would win. Not because of the Chainsword, but because while Spartans are trained to ignore pain and continue fighting SM have painkillers integrated into their suits, as well as adrenaline shots and most likely many more things to tip a battle in their favor.

^^^^Now of course all of this can probably be skipped because a spartan would now know that a Bolter could kill him in one or two shots until it's to late. :(

BTW, TC why did you even make this topic. It's a 40k board, the answer is going to be SM.
^^Reminds me of people who post on Gamespot/Gamefaqs asking if they should get game a or game b on the game a board.

Well my vote is for the Space marine for the simple idea that well they have had 40,000 years of advancements in Technology. The amount of time that the spartan has had is i believe 2100 years, so right there the Astartes would have a significant advantage, but those are my own two cents.

SMs don't have 40,000 years of advance in technology.

They have a few thousand years, followed by regression, followed by a bit of advancement, followed by stasis and decline into superstition.

The last big leap forwards in SM war technology was the ides of gluing a heavy bolter on top of a Rhino and calling it a Razorback. That was 3,000 years ago and took 7,000 years to come up with the idea. Or something.

do we have to continue flogging the question which has been asked many a times before (with the same answer of the Space marine winning and the halo lovers whinning)

^^
Like I said it seems pointless to even ask this question. This is a 40k Forum after all. If you were to go to a Halo forum and ask the question most likely they would pick a Spartan.

I don't know what TC was thinking...

Remember the first chapter of Horus Rising, with Luna Wolves fighting against the false emperor's elite Invisible troopers? Pretty sure those were Spartans with Active Camo and Grav Hammers.

This is one of the stupidest threads I have ever read. 10 mins of my life I won't get back

hahahahaha

Someone invent some Mjolnir and Standard Astartes armour, generate a couple of super soldiers and get them to bash each other..
Alternatively, if the above is not an option, to answer the OP question..

A Space Marine would win because this is DakkaDakka.com

If it were Halo.com then the Spartan would win (",)

Ed_Bodger wrote:This is one of the stupidest threads I have ever read. 10 mins of my life I won't get back

You didn't have to read it.

And apparently it isn't so bad if it has two pages of replies.

What!? the spartan would defenatly win! (especially if it was the master chief) have you read the books? a Spartan's armor is made from the same metal on a covenant ship! your talking armor that takes 3 nukes just to penetrate! (even though it wouldn't bee that tough because there is a lot less of it in a suit of armor they do say that someone took out a covenant ship with 3 lucky shots). further more it does have the shields so it could take even more punishment beyond that. Finally aren't the space marines just genetically enhanced clones? I mean yea, they are going to be pretty strong and fast, but the master chief can match it because guess what? hes genetically enhanced too! except he also has enhanced reflexes! and in the book it described a Spartan's adrenaline rush and basically said that the world around him slowed down a lot, so therefore, yea the space marines may be able to match him with strength (maybe), and maybe even weaponry, but the master chief defenatly has better armor, which is a lot less bulky and has shields, and is faster, especially with an adrenaline rush! not to mention that they were trained to do nothing but kill, think, and strategize since they were four! And if the spartan has an AI the SM is screwed!

Spartan hands down!

zane2131 wrote:What!? the spartan would defenatly win! (especially if it was the master chief) have you read the books? a Spartan's armor is made from the same metal on a covenant ship! your talking armor that takes 3 nukes just to penetrate! (even though it wouldn't bee that tough because there is a lot less of it in a suit of armor they do say that someone took out a covenant ship with 3 lucky shots). further more it does have the shields so it could take even more punishment beyond that. Finally aren't the space marines just genetically enhanced clones? I mean yea, they are going to be pretty strong and fast, but the master chief can match it because guess what? hes genetically enhanced too! except he also has enhanced reflexes! and in the book it described a Spartan's adrenaline rush and basically said that the world around him slowed down a lot, so therefore, yea the space marines may be able to match him with strength (maybe), and maybe even weaponry, but the master chief defenatly has better armor, which is a lot less bulky and has shields, and is faster, especially with an adrenaline rush! not to mention that they were trained to do nothing but kill, think, and strategize since they were four! And if the spartan has an AI the SM is screwed!

Spartan hands down!

Well, in Halo terms, a bolter is very similar to a brute shot (minus the lob)

The cheif can easily survive a few hits from a brute shot, but I'd say that a SM
is much more accurate than a Brute.
With this deadly efficiency, I'd say the SM would win.

Just my Humble oppion.

It would be really close though.

okay i've thought about it in 40k terms

Space marine
-WS:4, BS:4, S:4, T:4, W:1, I:4, A:1, LD:8, SV:3+
-Bolt gun- S:4, AP:5, rapid fire
I dont have a codex so im not sure about special rules

This is what I've come up with for a spartan
-WS:4, BS:5, S:5, T:4, W:1, I:6, A:2, LD:8, SV:2+

-Special rules: he wears an armor that gives him a shield, though not overly strong i think it deserves a 4+ inv save. can equipt an AI to increase I +2

I cant remember what wepon you gave him so i got both possable

-Assualt rifle S:2 AP:- assault 2
-Battle rifle S:2 AP:- assault 1
-SMG S:1 AP:- assault 3

heres my explanation

-WS:4 While they are trained to be experts at close combat as well as ranged, i don't see him being less or more capable skill wise than an SM
-BS:5 i gave him BS:5 because each spartan has advanced eyesight and are taught to aim dead on, the spartan wouldn't take a shot that wouldn't hit.
-S:5 This took a lot of debate, i compared what a regular SM could do and what a spartan can do, and lets face it, a spartan can punch through a tank. also a warboss has a toughness of 5 and i think that the warboss might be able to take a hit, but it would knock him down defenatly.
-T:4 i believe that both are equal when it comes to this. they can both shrug off alot, but they are still human, both on equal terms of genetics.
-W:1 again they are both human and if a space marine can take only one shot to kill, so should a spartan.
-I:6 i gave him such a high initiative because well, between his adrenaline and enhacements, not to mention even the armor helping increas it, i believe his reflexes and reaction time are almost unmatchable, even in the year 40,000.
-A:2 I gave him 2 atks because i figure his reaction time is good enough not only to hit his enemy with the gun, but also see his opponents open spots and hit it with a kick or something before they could react.
-LD:8 i dont think a spartan is completely fearless and could probebly muster the curage to stand up to the same stuff as a SM.
-SV:2+ lets face it, his armor is made out of the same material of space ship that can take 3 nukes...yea, beacuse its not as thick it stand up to that much, but I think it can stand up to everything a terminator's armor could.

-As for the special rules well, i explained the shield, but as for the AI, cortana doubled the chiefs reaction time. now seeing that cortana was an advanced AI i think i should instead of double it just give it a 2+.

Wepons

-the wepons are under advanced in all ways, but i thinks they are still considered assault. really i just looked at IG lasguns and made them slightly weaker since they just fire bullets.

Conclusion

-I have no idea. i believe the master chief could win, defenatly if he had cortana, but for a regular spartan i would say only in CC

Just as an FYI:
A brute 'shot' isn't anything like a Bolter.

A bolter is pretty much its own beast, while a Brute Shot is just a standard grenade launcher.

Closest real comparison I can think of in regards to Halo with the whole Bolter/XXX Halo Weapon is a Gauss Cannon.

Ah but has a single space marine ever blew up two giant weapons of galactic destruction and survived to tell the tale? Also a lot of spartans had something that sm don't have. And that is: luck. Oh btw, has a space marine ever lead a small strike team , sniped all the covenant patrols in the area,to board a covenant ship, kill the leading ship master, rescue the captain from the covie bastards, get vital intelligence after which he would then, go trudge through a swamp, and basically destroy a bunch of halo equivalent plaque bearers?
Cause, I'm pretty sure a sm has never did something like that. I'm voting for spartans.

Munch Munch! wrote:Ah but has a single space marine ever blew up two giant weapons of galactic destruction and survived to tell the tale? Also a lot of spartans had something that sm don't have. And that is: luck. Oh btw, has a space marine ever lead a small strike team , sniped all the covenant patrols in the area,to board a covenant ship, kill the leading ship master, rescue the captain from the covie bastards, get vital intelligence after which he would then, go trudge through a swamp, and basically destroy a bunch of halo equivalent plaque bearers?
Cause, I'm pretty sure a sm has never did something like that. I'm voting for spartans.

No, because that's not the job that SM do. SM fight invincible undead robots mind rending horrors of unfathomable power. Master chief dies to 4 seconds of sustained submachine gun fire. There is literally no good argument for spartans winning and the sooner you realize this the better. A spartan dies in 3 brute shot hits, a 3 round burst of bolt fire is like 3 brute shots that detonate inside your armor.

SM fight invincible undead robots mind rending horrors of unfathomable power. Master chief dies to 4 seconds of sustained submachine gun fire. There is literally no good argument for spartans winning and the sooner you realize this the better. A spartan dies in 3 brute shot hits, a 3 round burst of bolt fire is like 3 brute shots that detonate inside your armor.

For the Spartan sympathisers(and I will be suffering in self loathing for weeks for taking part) read Fall of Reach. It explains much of the spartans upgrades and improvements. I'm sorry, they are NOTHING compared to an Astrates. The differance is huge between a Space Marine and a Spartan. Space Marines are super agile even in bulky armour, they go toe to toe with Eldar and win in CC. Spartan armour and shielding is knocked off by half a clip of assault rifles, or a couple bursts from a battle rifle. What is a bolter going to do to it?

And no, Space Marines have not lead an assault on a Covenant ship etc. etc. They do things like take whole planets with about 100 soldiers, or destroy a planet destroying super weapon ship guarded by hundreds of thousands of sleepless zombie robots with less then 800 men. Holding off billions of tyranid organisms with but a handful of soldiers and holding off demons from the deepest, darkest places of the Universe.

Has Master Chief ever done that? Umm...no.

I think people are far over estimating the capabilities of Spartans.

@shadow captain:It takes one whole clip of assualt rifle fire to take down the shield of a spartan. Also in my last post, i said that the master chief did the equivalent of destroying a galactic super weapon. and he did it twice.
And he survived

This is pretty silly, at least when comic geeks go of on pointless arguments they have 40 to 60 years of detailed fluff to go off of, versus relatively vague and contradictory fluff for SM (Take the SM in Courage and Honor versus the SM in Fire Warrior), or the Johny-come-lately Spartans.

The thing is, the Spartans tend to fight smarter than SM's. Whereas the SM would see the Spartan and charge headlong at him heedless of cover or concealment all while screaming "FOR THE FETHING EMPRAH!!!!!" at the top of his lungs, the Spartan would observe the SM covertely, and realizing that his armor is too thick for a head-on fight, the Spartan would simply ninja-kill the SM. Sneak up behind, lop his head off with an energy sword, crush him with a G-hammer, etc. If any of you have read the Halo fluff, you would see that Spartans can move with nigh-supernatural speed and stealth. Also, they know when it pays to fight smarter instead of harder.

I always laugh when I see a thread like this, the favor is obviously with SMs here because this is a 40k forum. If you posed the same question on a halo forum, the favor would obviously be with spartans. (also if there was a "they're equal" button i would have voted in that)

Ok I saw a lot on the 'smart' AI. If we're going to give a spartan an edge that he would not normally have (I.E. His body, armor & weapons, all standard issue) Then we need to give the marine something he wouldn't normally have so let's give him a melta gun, game over, marine wins.

Now failing that: Standard spartan Vs. Standard Tac marine I have to side with the marine. Heres why:

Combat experience: Marine (Hundreds of years old 100+ years in combat) - Spartan (perhaps 20-30 years actual combat)
Enhancements: Marine (Read up on all the implants they get) - Spartan (Enhanced human, no additional organs that I know of)
Armor: Marine (foot thick rigid plates that can hold up to a direct strike by a frag missile or Tau missile pod) Spartan (Frag missiles kill them easily)
Weapons: Marine (Bolter, explained hundreds of times, Chainsword, Bolt Pistol) Spartan: (Assault / Battle rifle with the standard ammo) ***If we give spartans special ammo then the marine is going to get sternguard ammo***

The Marine clearly wins in all categories so bickering & favoritism aside I have to side with the marine.

Corvus wrote:The thing is, the Spartans tend to fight smarter than SM's. Whereas the SM would see the Spartan and charge headlong at him heedless of cover or concealment all while screaming "FOR THE FETHING EMPRAH!!!!!" at the top of his lungs, the Spartan would observe the SM covertely, and realizing that his armor is too thick for a head-on fight, the Spartan would simply ninja-kill the SM. Sneak up behind, lop his head off with an energy sword, crush him with a G-hammer, etc. If any of you have read the Halo fluff, you would see that Spartans can move with nigh-supernatural speed and stealth. Also, they know when it pays to fight smarter instead of harder.

Try reading a Black Library book by someone other than Goto(like the Iron Snakes book or Storm of Iron), and you'll realize that Marines AREN'T Mindless combat drones. They fight just as smart as the Spartans do.

A Spartan dies instantly to one headshot from a pistol if his shield is down. His armor is basically worthless against 40k-scale weapons, shields aside. Realistically, the Spartan can probably kill the Marine if he shoots him in the eye or maybe throat (assuming the Marine isn't wearing Mk. 8 armor, where the throat is protected). The Marine can kill the Spartan if he shoots him anywhere. I think that the Marine would almost always beat the Spartan, but it's not totally implausible that the Spartan could get lucky in a straight fight or take out the Marine in an ambush scenario.

What we need is a version of deadliest warrior for fictional characters!

zane2131 wrote:okay i've thought about it in 40k terms

Space marine
-WS:4, BS:4, S:4, T:4, W:1, I:4, A:1, LD:8, SV:3+
-Bolt gun- S:4, AP:5, rapid fire
I dont have a codex so im not sure about special rules

This is what I've come up with for a spartan
-WS:4, BS:5, S:5, T:4, W:1, I:6, A:2, LD:8, SV:2+

I'm going to ignore EVERYTHING you just said and go ahead and show you what a real Marine in the 40k universe is like.

Taken from the Movie Marines Ruleset:

-WS:5, BS:5, S:6, T:6, W:2, I:5, A:3, LD:9, SV:3+
-Bolt gun- S:6, AP:4, Assault 4 Rending

Oh but wait, that's the average marine. If you're going to be facing him off against Master Chief, I say we use a Sergeant's profile.

-WS:9, BS:5, S:6, T:6, W:4, I:6, A:5, LD:10, SV:3+
-Bolt pistol- S:6, AP:4, Assault 4 Rending
-Chainsword

Seems the odds are now stacked differently.

As for the Spartan having I 6, that's absurd. Spac Marines are designed to be quicker than anything they face even in bulky power armor. Their inner-ear implant let's them be more dextrous than any human, modified or otherwise. And no, a Spartan is not as swift as an eldar by any means.

It would not have a 2+ save either. It would be either a 3-4+ since it's armor is WEAK though its shields are decent. So when its shields go down, the armor is like Carapace armor, which is a 5+ save.

Lastly, the idea a Spartan wins in close combat is hysterical. We're talking average spartan. This means no ENergy Sword, no Gravity Hammer. Just gun butts and fists. Good luck piercing any armor.

Can we put this to rest now? A Spartan has very less genetic modification, less advanced weapons, and even less training in terms of HE HAS TO SLEEP decent amounts, while a Space Marine is sleeping four hours then training for 18 of the next 20 hours.

The point is, all of that has nothing to do with table tennis or disco dancing so the SM would have absolutely no chance.

It is true the space marine ain't doing squat thrusts and t-bagging his kills, so I could see the Spartan winning... Durf.

Lorgar's_Blessed, I have to fully agree with you. If people want to give a spartan extra special weapons then the marine should get special weapons to. Also M.C. is a special spartan, clearly the best of his kind so He should go up against at least a space marine sarge. People need to realize that this is basically an in equality of Spartan Vs. Marine so anything that is done to one side must be done to the other.

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:So when its shields go down, the armor is like Carapace armor, which is a 5+ save.

Carapace get 4+. FLAK gets 5+.

Precisely. It appears the Space Marine lovers are getting the odd claim of stacking in the favor of the Marine, yet I sure see a lot of stacking for the Halo fanatics...

Plus, if that bit statblock isn't enough to make you realize this is absurd, think of this. A Space Marine is taught from the age of 11-12 that he has to be resilient, have insane faith, and be a downright badass. He is then given his implants after tons of training that already makes him a total awesome guy by human standards, and is THEN sent out onto the battlefield with decent armor and subpar weaponry (by marine standards). For the next 20-30 years, he gets personal combat training with tons of simulation work on the side. He is then given full power armor, the best weapons that can be mass-produced, and is then sent out to be a bigger badass. The average lifespan of this new Battle Brother, anywhere from 100-200 years more.

A Spartan is trained from birth, given modifications (though not to Astartes extent), is given good stuff when he can use it, and is then sent out to do SUPER SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE missions. He lives for about another 30 years before dieing on the battlefield.

See the difference? We're talking a century of training and repetitive organs, on top of new stuff/implants to make him even better than before. I don't see how a Spartan can fight this thing one on one, and seriously not cower in fear. I don't care how well he is indoctrinated. If I could lift a truck, I'd still piss myself at this guy.

Actually spartans weren't trained from birth. The spartan II program started when most of the future Spartans were 6. They would then be replaced with flash clones which would quickly die, which the UNSC would say were just natural causes.

I'd heard it was about 4 years old when it started, and it's close enough. Almost nothing can truly be trained from birth, yet the phrase is used often enough.

One of the only reasons why a fully equipped Spartan would beat a fully equipped Imperial Marine is because the Spartans actually use tactics.

They are used to going mano-a-mano (not literally) whereas Imperial Marines are trained to fight in squads.

This alone gives the Spartan an advantage.

The Spartans don't just run around with no cover or anything like that.

Fluff-wise, space marines use cover quite effectively. They are also taught to run solo missions when nessecary, and fluff-wise Space Wolves are the best at it. So it's not completely unheard of.

Vladsimpaler wrote:One of the only reasons why a fully equipped Spartan would beat a fully equipped Imperial Marine is because the Spartans actually use tactics.

They are used to going mano-a-mano (not literally) whereas Imperial Marines are trained to fight in squads.

This alone gives the Spartan an advantage.

The Spartans don't just run around with no cover or anything like that.

1. Marines use Tactics, too. I don't know where you people keep getting that idea from, but stop it.

2. Spartans were originally trained for SQUADS of Spartans. John-117 had to make do when he was left without a squad. Spartans aren't used to fighting alone any more or less than Imperial Marines.

@Platuanth:Yeah but a squad of spartans would consist of about 3 or 4 spartans to conduct special operations and commando missions.

Munch Munch! wrote:@Platuanth:Yeah but a squad of spartans would consist of about 3 or 4 spartans to conduct special operations and commando missions.

And?

Marines have a group that does that, they're called Scouts. And every single marine was once a scout, so I have a feeling full marines are just as capable of doing it(in fact, several chapters specialize in it, like Raven Guard and Blood Ravens).

ever heard of Kill teams?

Death watch?? thats what they do

read the grey knight book? was one Grey Knight pwns his way across a Deamon world

Ah damn it. I fold. You guys have convinced me that sm are better than spartans. I bow to your superior fluff knowledge.

'Bout time...

zane2131 wrote:yea but a space marine has one wound and yousaid yourself that it would take 3 bruit shots to kill the spartan so therefor the spartan has 3 wounds. so really your not helping your argument.

Are you kidding? I'm sorry, but you are terrible at arguing, and terrible at logic. Why would you compare "who would win" in game statistics when both characters are not in the same game system? A space marine is superior to a spartan in every single way, there is literally no way other than extreme luck that a SM would lose 1v1 to a spartan. A single SM could probably take on 10 spartans. A SM's basic weapon is superior to a brute shot, which kills a spartan in 3 hits. SMG or AR bullets could not harm Power Armor at all unless it struck an extremely lucky spot. The odds are so stacked against the spartan that I cannot take your "argument", if one could even call it that, seriously.

Huur-duur, Master Cheif is awesomes! He kills aliens and doesnt afraid of anything

ph34r wrote:

zane2131 wrote:yea but a space marine has one wound and yousaid yourself that it would take 3 bruit shots to kill the spartan so therefor the spartan has 3 wounds. so really your not helping your argument.

Are you kidding? I'm sorry, but you are terrible at arguing, and terrible at logic. Why would you compare "who would win" in game statistics when both characters are not in the same game system? A space marine is superior to a spartan in every single way, there is literally no way other than extreme luck that a SM would lose 1v1 to a spartan. A single SM could probably take on 10 spartans. A SM's basic weapon is superior to a brute shot, which kills a spartan in 3 hits. SMG or AR bullets could not harm Power Armor at all unless it struck an extremely lucky spot. The odds are so stacked against the spartan that I cannot take your "argument", if one could even call it that, seriously.

I'm gonna have to call you out on that one there, ph34r. There is no way in hell that an SM would take on 10 Spartans all at once. Not gonna happen. Sure, an SM could defeat one or even two at the same time easily enough. His prowess in close combat alone more than makes up for being outnumbered. I'm guessing an SM could go hand-to-hand with a 3-4 brutes and still come out on top. Without a chainsword. Can any Spartan really claim the same?

However, I still feel that you're simply disregarding what he's saying because you don't want to hear it. Against 3 spartans, I think a Space Marine would be lucky to win that one.

Anyway, would Spartan Laser = Lascannon or Plasma Gun?

alexwars1 wrote:Huur-duur, Master Cheif is awesomes! He kills aliens and doesnt afraid of anything

Hurr.

zane2131 wrote:
Space marine
-WS:4, BS:4, S:4, T:4, W:1, I:4, A:1, LD:8, SV:3+
Spartan
-WS:4, BS:5, S:5, T:4, W:1, I:6, A:2, LD:8, SV:2+

You give a higher balistic skill to a person who has been trianed since adulthood over
a person who's weapon is essentially part of his being since the age of 13/14?
Higher Strenght value for the Spartan!
A higher save and Initiative?

So, going by the stats:
A Spartan warrior from the Halo series would be faster, stronger, smarter and have better accuracy/aiming skill than a SM??

Why don't you just mix Eldar with Necron and be done with it?

zane2131 wrote:
Space marine
-WS:4, BS:4, S:4, T:4, W:1, I:4, A:1, LD:8, SV:3+
Spartan
-WS:4, BS:4, S:4, T:4, W:1, I:4, A:1, LD:8, SV:4+ (5+ invo)

Fixed that for ya.

What kinda sick joke is this...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

zane2131 wrote:
Space marine
-WS:4, BS:4, S:4, T:4, W:1, I:4, A:1, LD:8, SV:3+
Spartan
-WS:4, BS:4, S:4, T:4, W:1, I:4, A:1, LD:8, SV:4+ (5+ invo)

Fixed that for ya.

The leadership on a spartan would be nine, not eight

Battle Rifle: Gas Powered Assault Rifle...

The spartan would shoot that, the SM would laugh...

Space marine
-WS:4, BS:4, S:4, T:4, W:1, I:4, A:1, LD:8, SV:3+
Spartan
-WS:4, BS:4, S:4, T:4, W:1, I:4, A:1, LD:8, SV:4+ (5+ invo)


Yep, this I can agree with.
Even being on par with a SM would be feasible, especially with the invulnerable save (due to the magic nuke stopping armour)
to negate the SM straight up SV3+

But guuuuuys, its Master Chief!! He has luck. Looking at the state of the imperium the smurfs don't have much of that

If we're using MasterChief as the Spartan example then us 40K peeps can use a Chapter Master as our avatar (",)

In which case, MasterChief would become just another notch on the Chapter Masters acolades..
It would be a titanic one on one battle, untill the CM closes the gap and then kicks the crap out of the Chief..
That's hundreds of years worth of fighting prowess against a couple of decades of loneliness..

But it's standard mjolnir Spartan against standard Astartes SM or am I wrong??

The SMs are good on paper but their real battlefield performance does not live up to the hype.

Kilkrazy wrote:The SMs are good on paper but their real battlefield performance does not live up to the hype.

What hype??

The fluff hype or the hype that players have built up during this thread??

You know, I think the Spartan might have a chance if they let him use the starting pistol from Halo 1.

That thing was buuuuuullllllll-pucky.

Seriously, in what military do you fire your assault rifle only at enemies 30 feet away and unholster your pistol when you see one at 100 yards?

Kilkrazy wrote:The SMs are good on paper but their real battlefield performance does not live up to the hype.

In Descent of angles it talks a lot of space marine prowess. A Marine (Standard tac marine at the time), who for spoiler purposes shall not be named, holds down a position on his own, more or less (His comrades are too wounded to help much), while wounded himself against a whole horde of orcs, whom I would compare to brutes. (In game brutes tended to be bad shots & prefer to charge into melee whenever they could) how does that not live up to the hype? Read about the battle for maccrage, especially the 1st company. How about the deathwing story? I fail to see how SM's don't live up to their hype. I mean in game play they don't but that's because it would significantly unbalance the game.

Hehe, people seem to forget that this is SM vs Spartan

Not Master Chief Vs. SM

Keep it to generic Spartans and Generic SMs.....

Please read on page 1 the area of the TRUE space marine profile, not this sick thing we call a "true marine" in the 40k ruleset. D:

Why do halo players believe their idol is immortal? How do they not perceive something else killing him easily...

I want my BS 5 Cadians now!
If you want to have MC, the marines get MC too. The guy who upper-cutted an Avatar

EDIT: Oh-no! I just bumped this POS!

Emperors Faithful wrote:

ph34r wrote:

zane2131 wrote:yea but a space marine has one wound and yousaid yourself that it would take 3 bruit shots to kill the spartan so therefor the spartan has 3 wounds. so really your not helping your argument.

Are you kidding? I'm sorry, but you are terrible at arguing, and terrible at logic. Why would you compare "who would win" in game statistics when both characters are not in the same game system? A space marine is superior to a spartan in every single way, there is literally no way other than extreme luck that a SM would lose 1v1 to a spartan. A single SM could probably take on 10 spartans. A SM's basic weapon is superior to a brute shot, which kills a spartan in 3 hits. SMG or AR bullets could not harm Power Armor at all unless it struck an extremely lucky spot. The odds are so stacked against the spartan that I cannot take your "argument", if one could even call it that, seriously.

I'm gonna have to call you out on that one there, ph34r. There is no way in hell that an SM would take on 10 Spartans all at once. Not gonna happen. Sure, an SM could defeat one or even two at the same time easily enough. His prowess in close combat alone more than makes up for being outnumbered. I'm guessing an SM could go hand-to-hand with a 3-4 brutes and still come out on top. Without a chainsword. Can any Spartan really claim the same?

Speaking of which, how many hunters do you think a sm could take on?

Solly wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The SMs are good on paper but their real battlefield performance does not live up to the hype.

What hype??

The fluff hype or the hype that players have built up during this thread??

Both, they are intertwined.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shas'O Dorian wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The SMs are good on paper but their real battlefield performance does not live up to the hype.

In Descent of angles it talks a lot of space marine prowess. A Marine (Standard tac marine at the time), who for spoiler purposes shall not be named, holds down a position on his own, more or less (His comrades are too wounded to help much), while wounded himself against a whole horde of orcs, whom I would compare to brutes. (In game brutes tended to be bad shots & prefer to charge into melee whenever they could) how does that not live up to the hype? Read about the battle for maccrage, especially the 1st company. How about the deathwing story? I fail to see how SM's don't live up to their hype. I mean in game play they don't but that's because it would significantly unbalance the game.

The only place you can judge a unit's battlefield performance is on the battlefield.

Everything else, like the book you talk about, has to be considered as fiction.

The battlefield of 40K is the table top game. In the rules, SMs aren't all that good.

Munch Munch! wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

ph34r wrote:

zane2131 wrote:yea but a space marine has one wound and yousaid yourself that it would take 3 bruit shots to kill the spartan so therefor the spartan has 3 wounds. so really your not helping your argument.

Are you kidding? I'm sorry, but you are terrible at arguing, and terrible at logic. Why would you compare "who would win" in game statistics when both characters are not in the same game system? A space marine is superior to a spartan in every single way, there is literally no way other than extreme luck that a SM would lose 1v1 to a spartan. A single SM could probably take on 10 spartans. A SM's basic weapon is superior to a brute shot, which kills a spartan in 3 hits. SMG or AR bullets could not harm Power Armor at all unless it struck an extremely lucky spot. The odds are so stacked against the spartan that I cannot take your "argument", if one could even call it that, seriously.

I'm gonna have to call you out on that one there, ph34r. There is no way in hell that an SM would take on 10 Spartans all at once. Not gonna happen. Sure, an SM could defeat one or even two at the same time easily enough. His prowess in close combat alone more than makes up for being outnumbered. I'm guessing an SM could go hand-to-hand with a 3-4 brutes and still come out on top. Without a chainsword. Can any Spartan really claim the same?

Speaking of which, how many hunters do you think a sm could take on?

That depends. How many hunters could 4 brutes take on?

The thing of it is though for the Spartan supporters saying that they want the MC is that he is the luckiest. Not the strongest, fastest, or best shot.

I'm sure Linda could snipe a garishly ornated SM from ridiculus range before he knew she was there.

As for the disparity between special Weapon or not, sure give the Marine a melta he will never reach the range. Give him a Las cannon. He will never find her.

In CC though the Marine has it absolutely no contest.

Platuan4th wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:One of the only reasons why a fully equipped Spartan would beat a fully equipped Imperial Marine is because the Spartans actually use tactics.

They are used to going mano-a-mano (not literally) whereas Imperial Marines are trained to fight in squads.

This alone gives the Spartan an advantage.

The Spartans don't just run around with no cover or anything like that.

1. Marines use Tactics, too. I don't know where you people keep getting that idea from, but stop it.

2. Spartans were originally trained for SQUADS of Spartans. John-117 had to make do when he was left without a squad. Spartans aren't used to fighting alone any more or less than Imperial Marines.

For #1: Really? Have you seen the beginning of DoW 1? The marines just randomly charge the top of a hill, not even using cover and just running around.

Honestly I have never seen any examples of Imperial Space Marines ever using tactics with the exception of the Reasonable Marines.

Well I've seen very few examples of Imperial Marines using tactics. Just not enough of it to make me feel that they would come out on top.

A SM will easily win.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

ph34r wrote:

zane2131 wrote:yea but a space marine has one wound and yousaid yourself that it would take 3 bruit shots to kill the spartan so therefor the spartan has 3 wounds. so really your not helping your argument.

Are you kidding? I'm sorry, but you are terrible at arguing, and terrible at logic. Why would you compare "who would win" in game statistics when both characters are not in the same game system? A space marine is superior to a spartan in every single way, there is literally no way other than extreme luck that a SM would lose 1v1 to a spartan. A single SM could probably take on 10 spartans. A SM's basic weapon is superior to a brute shot, which kills a spartan in 3 hits. SMG or AR bullets could not harm Power Armor at all unless it struck an extremely lucky spot. The odds are so stacked against the spartan that I cannot take your "argument", if one could even call it that, seriously.

I'm gonna have to call you out on that one there, ph34r. There is no way in hell that an SM would take on 10 Spartans all at once. Not gonna happen. Sure, an SM could defeat one or even two at the same time easily enough. His prowess in close combat alone more than makes up for being outnumbered. I'm guessing an SM could go hand-to-hand with a 3-4 brutes and still come out on top. Without a chainsword. Can any Spartan really claim the same?

However, I still feel that you're simply disregarding what he's saying because you don't want to hear it. Against 3 spartans, I think a Space Marine would be lucky to win that one.

Anyway, would Spartan Laser = Lascannon or Plasma Gun?

Spartan laser = low rate of fire multilaser.
If 3 brute shots can kill a spartan, a Space Marine can unload a full auto clip of armor penetrating brute shots and massacre spartans by the dozen. Please back your "no way, not gonna happen" up with examples, otherwise its pretty worthless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vladsimpaler wrote:For #1: Really? Have you seen the beginning of DoW 1? The marines just randomly charge the top of a hill, not even using cover and just running around.

Honestly I have never seen any examples of Imperial Space Marines ever using tactics with the exception of the Reasonable Marines.

Well I've seen very few examples of Imperial Marines using tactics. Just not enough of it to make me feel that they would come out on top.

The "but in dawn of war!!!11" argument is old. Nothing in DoW 1 is a good representation of canon. "Sir, our shipment of 100 baneblades just went out to serve".

Try reading a 40k book and you will get a bit of an idea of tactics.

How are you comparing a SL to a multilaser? It goes strait through tanks and damn near everything else.

It is more equiv to a las cannon.

Astartes have internal enhancements that also aide them in combat. Sooooo if a Spartan did actually wound a SM, chances of the SM dying would be slim...

Please stop talking about DoW 1 it was a decent game but NONE of it should be taken as official lore on warhammer 40k.

Read the books or even the codex stories, much better and official (Save for those terrible authors who I shall not name)

Noobtodagame wrote:How are you comparing a SL to a multilaser? It goes strait through tanks and damn near everything else.

It ismore equiv to a las cannon.

A SL can kill a spartan in one shot on max charge. So can 3 brute shots. By transitive property 1 max charge SL = 3 bolter shots, which is closer to a ML shot than a LC shot. Remember, tanks, armor, everything in 40k is harder and stronger than the materials available in Halo's time.

Thank goodness Dorian at least has the common sense not to take DOW as fluff.

Seriously, a game =/= fluff. Enough. Plus, that was probably the best tactic. Taking pot shots lets the charging unit take them, so I would also prefer charging into the fray so I don't get slammed.

Secondly, the idea they DON'T use tactics is idiotic at best. "Wait, you mean that in the fluff Space Marines DO use cover and they DO shoot when they aren't about to be swatted and they DO make solo missions when nessecary..." Durp.

ph34r wrote:
Try reading a 40k book and you will get a bit of an idea of tactics.

No thanks, I'd rather go commit self murder.

Anyway, could I get some examples of these so called tactics?

(As apparently Dawn of War isn't canon now. )

Dawn of war never was. GW just licensed out warhammer to relic. they didn't play any part in the story line.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

ph34r wrote:
Try reading a 40k book and you will get a bit of an idea of tactics.

No thanks, I'd rather go commit self murder.

Anyway, could I get some examples of these so called tactics?

(As apparently Dawn of War isn't canon now. )

Most 40k books are pretty bad, but at least it is a better representation than Dawn of War. DoW 2 is pretty 40k-true though.

I really don't know what the hell you guys are doing comparing a space marine to a spartan. A space marine sheer strength alone outside of his power Armour is still twice that or more than a spartan. Let alone the fact that in their power Armour that they get even stronger. We somehow already estrablished that one bolter shot will kill a spartan. So going off of this, how many shots does it take with any guns from the spartans arsenal to kill a grunt, thats right a lowly grunt. If I remember correctly a battle rifle will take several shots against an unarmored grunt.

Really how can you compare super humans who can punch a whole through a rhino to master chief who can barely punch things on his level to death?

That's just ir Protoman, this discussion is idiotic. We're basing facts of two fantasy/sci-fi settings that are roughly based similiar. Add to this the fact that some people have a hard on for Spartans and the fact that we have pre-pubescent children with Halo 3 and every unlocked achievement and the whole Halo book collection makes this an impossible debate to win for either side.

Frankly, and I am biased I know, there is no way these two compare properly. There is so much, "IF THIS HAPPENED" in this discussion that it cannot be kept sane anymore. Also, it doesn't help that us 40k fluff nazis won't say no and are as stubborn as a donkey being forced into the ocean.

Ok let me put this short and simple.
Space Marines are 20x stronger than a average human.
Spartans are only 10x stronger, also Spartans may have shields but....
Space Marine power Armor is pretty powerful it has a shield of its own. Because Spartan Armor is made out of steel. Space Marine Armor is made out of Adamantium.
Space Marine Bolters are so powerful compare them to Artillery Weapons in WW1. Then the assualt rifle for the Spartan is very small its like a M16 of today +plus an upgrade of more bullets. Your Standard Marine is fast and uses tactics everytime, that and their IQ is 300 or more. (source White Dwarf 300)
Also the Spartan's Spartan Laser is like a Lasgun, thats it. For one thing the 40k universes technology is very very advanced, were talking about weapons that break sound barriers without even trying. Space marines would kill the Master Cheif with just flicking him in the face.
Also don't base your thoughts and arguments from a 10 year old standard, the Spartans are like 38,000 years before space marines, Space marines have everything and they outnumber spartans 1000 to 1 so i don't know how a spartan who is outnumbered, outgunned, outclassed, outranked, outmanuavered, and angry marines with power armor running at you, I think they are F---ed.
plus Spartans are Space Marine Rip-offs.

Wait, for the spartan, I just realized, they'll use anything. They fight damn dirty. But I'm not sure a space marine will pick up a battle rifle if his bolter were out.
@Emperor's Faithful: Well in the last level of halo 2, the hunters in the last room, the two hunters could take on the 10 or so brutes. Bu that's on easy.

Space marines are known for fighting dirty.

Really?

Yes really. And C.S.Goto says that they'll pick up a MULTILASER over their standard equipment.

To be fair, I would give the SPlazer at least AP 4, if not 3.

Wait, D'oh! I did it again!

Asherian Command wrote:Ok let me put this short and simple.
Space Marines are 20x stronger than a average human.
Spartans are only 10x stronger, also Spartans may have shields but....
Space Marine power Armor is pretty powerful it has a shield of its own. Because Spartan Armor is made out of steel. Space Marine Armor is made out of Adamantium.
Space Marine Bolters are so powerful compare them to Artillery Weapons in WW1. Then the assualt rifle for the Spartan is very small its like a M16 of today +plus an upgrade of more bullets. Your Standard Marine is fast and uses tactics everytime, that and their IQ is 300 or more. (source White Dwarf 300)
Also the Spartan's Spartan Laser is like a Lasgun, thats it. For one thing the 40k universes technology is very very advanced, were talking about weapons that break sound barriers without even trying. Space marines would kill the Master Cheif with just flicking him in the face.
Also don't base your thoughts and arguments from a 10 year old standard, the Spartans are like 38,000 years before space marines, Space marines have everything and they outnumber spartans 1000 to 1 so i don't know how a spartan who is outnumbered, outgunned, outclassed, outranked, outmanuavered, and angry marines with power armor running at you, I think they are F---ed.
plus Spartans are Space Marine Rip-offs.

Okay, this entire post wasn't that well thought through and largely lacking in fluff support from both sides. But the stuff in bold really makes me lol.

Yeah, Asherian you are exaggerating there. A lasgun can blow your arm off, but not explode a jeep. A bolter can explode your entire chest, but not wreck a trench and make a crater. Space marine armor has no shields, but it does have auto-reactive shot blocking shoulder pads. No idea how those work though.

Spartans got raped on Reach.

They fail.

Henners91 wrote:Space Marines got raped on Maccragge.

They fail.

See how that works?

And let's not even get into all the Astartes Chapters that have been decimated during the course of the more recent Hive Fleets(namely because they keep adding more and more obscure Chapters to get devoured).

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:That's just ir Protoman, this discussion is idiotic. We're basing facts of two fantasy/sci-fi settings that are roughly based similiar. Add to this the fact that some people have a hard on for Spartans and the fact that we have pre-pubescent children with Halo 3 and every unlocked achievement and the whole Halo book collection makes this an impossible debate to win for either side.

Frankly, and I am biased I know, there is no way these two compare properly. There is so much, "IF THIS HAPPENED" in this discussion that it cannot be kept sane anymore. Also, it doesn't help that us 40k fluff nazis won't say no and are as stubborn as a donkey being forced into the ocean.

Well this reminds me of the thread of how our society today would handle space marines coming to earth, and everyone saying that we would stand a pretty good chance. I really don't understand why the hard on for master chief is so adamant. If you like Master chief fine and dandy go on and give him a handjob but don't compare two things and think that they would stand a chance because your stiffy rips through your pants.

Good post by the way Lorgar.

TheTrueProtoman wrote:

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:That's just ir Protoman, this discussion is idiotic. We're basing facts of two fantasy/sci-fi settings that are roughly based similiar. Add to this the fact that some people have a hard on for Spartans and the fact that we have pre-pubescent children with Halo 3 and every unlocked achievement and the whole Halo book collection makes this an impossible debate to win for either side.

Frankly, and I am biased I know, there is no way these two compare properly. There is so much, "IF THIS HAPPENED" in this discussion that it cannot be kept sane anymore. Also, it doesn't help that us 40k fluff nazis won't say no and are as stubborn as a donkey being forced into the ocean.

Well this reminds me of the thread of how our society today would handle space marines coming to earth, and everyone saying that we would stand a pretty good chance. I really don't understand why the hard on for master chief is so adamant. If you like Master chief fine and dandy go on and give him a handjob but don't compare two things and think that they would stand a chance because your stiffy rips through your pants.

Good post by the way Lorgar.

Why thank you Proto, and a nice post yourself. I find a bit of witty humor while I dryly insult a thread makes for a much better time.

I really don't understand why the hard on for Space Marines is so adamant. If you like Space Marines that's fine and dandy go on and give them a handjob but don't compare two things and think that they wouldn't stand a chance because your stiffy rips through your pants.

It works both ways.

The problem is that there is, period, no direct way to keep the comparison unbiased.

Astartes die to Guardsmen quite often. Hell, they die to Ork Shootas--which are pretty much stubbers/assault rifles.

Fluffwise, the only time a Boy kills a Space Marine is in CC. A marine in the fluff takes ten or more to focus on one marine to kill them. Game =/= fluff.

Very good.

Now those examples of "three Brute Shots killing a Spartan" or "one Spartan Laser shot can ONLY kill one Spartan" are all from multiplayer or Legendary difficulty.

Spartan Lasers are far, far, far closer to Lascannons than Multilasers. SLs can cut right through multiple shielded Elites or even bring down shielded Brute Chieftains.

I don't know Kan, Señor Goto would disagree with you on the Multilaser's effect.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

ph34r wrote:
Try reading a 40k book and you will get a bit of an idea of tactics.

Anyway, could I get some examples of these so called tactics?
(As apparently Dawn of War isn't canon now. )

Hi.. If I'm getting your question right:

Im not naming specific engagements cause I'd be here for ages
however examples of SM using tactics in 40k official fluff:
Every book in the HH series thus fars......
Every book in the Soul Drinkers, Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, BloodAngels series..
Erm even the Last Chancers have a member of the DeathWatch who uses tactics to take down three battle suits, Kill Team.. (with a little help from some IG but not tanks)

With regards to the hype around the SM:
On the battlefield my Orks tend to roll them over.
So I've not much regard for SM unless someone has sorted out a proper list and uses whirlwinds effectively.
In this thread the hype is about pride, especially the Imperial players..
Nobody beats down the Emperors golden boys (",)

Solly wrote:With regards to the hype around the SM:
On the battlefield my Orks tend to roll them over.
So I've not much regard for SM unless someone has sorted out a proper list and uses whirlwinds effectively.
In this thread the hype is about pride, especially the Imperial players..
Nobody beats down the Emperors golden boys (",)

As has been stated, fluff =/= game in terms of a unit's power.

Solly's ignorance of the GW statblock for SMs is amazing. Please, read a book and understand that, FLUFFWISE, SMs are much MUCH more powerful.

Soul Drinkers tactica is just what everyone is claiming isn't: They shove in and slice through everything. Soul Drinkers Omnibus was horrible as it was so against the fluff of the 40kverse and simply destroyed any hopes of a neutral chapter being awesome.

Please, read a book and understand that, FLUFFWISE, SMs are much MUCH more powerful.

Read a book?
Which one? Maybe one that I mentioned in my previous post?
Admitedly I didn't read the BloodQuest series or all of the UM series..
I know they are fluffwise capable of destroying many times their number in battle!!
Hell, that's how it was originally sold to me in the GW store..

I haven't said anything to the contrary???

Soul Drinkers tactica is just what everyone is claiming isn't: They shove in and slice through everything.

Is tearing out the enemies command structure not a tactic?
Or destroying an army piece by piece not a tactic, albeit a brutal one..

With regards to that actual series I quiet liked it.. Especially Tellos..

Kanluwen wrote:Very good.

Now those examples of "three Brute Shots killing a Spartan" or "one Spartan Laser shot can ONLY kill one Spartan" are all from multiplayer or Legendary difficulty.

Spartan Lasers are far, far, far closer to Lascannons than Multilasers. SLs can cut right through multiple shielded Elites or even bring down shielded Brute Chieftains.

Halo shields are weak in comparison to 40k technology and brutes are basically unarmored. It doesn't matter how many monkeys with light refractor fields a SL can kill, they are not lascannons and never will be. Legendary difficulty is supposed to be the most realistic difficulty, so it only makes sense to judge based on that.

Technically, Heroic is supposed to be "true Halo," but that doesn't make it look that much better for the Spartans.

Solly wrote:Please, read a book and understand that, FLUFFWISE, SMs are much MUCH more powerful.

Read a book?
Which one? Maybe one that I mentioned in my previous post?
Admitedly I didn't read the BloodQuest series or all of the UM series..
I know they are fluffwise capable of destroying many times their number in battle!!
Hell, that's how it was originally sold to me in the GW store..

I haven't said anything to the contrary???

Soul Drinkers tactica is just what everyone is claiming isn't: They shove in and slice through everything.

Is tearing out the enemies command structure not a tactic?
Or destroying an army piece by piece not a tactic, albeit a brutal one..

With regards to that actual series I quiet liked it.. Especially Tellos..

You said your orks would beat/do beat SM all the time. yet, you add this to your argument as if it were fluff, which is only found in a codex/novel (though some say it isn't fluff since it is irregular).

Tellos made the book utterly horrible.

@Lorgar's_Blessed

You said your orks would beat/do beat SM all the time.
yet, you add this to your argument as if it were fluff, which is only found in a codex/novel.

If that's the way I came across, then it's not the case..
My ususal opponents play necrons, eldar and my orks arch nemises - other orkz.
What I meant to express was that when I play against SM it's w/players who are not experienced with them,
except in tournies where the player knows what they are doing and my boyz earn their teef..

Tellos made the book utterly horrible.


Yes, I agree with this..

Since everyone is getting so angsty about how fluff=/=gaming stats, how about you post what the gaming stats SHOULD look like. Personally, I find them to be fairly reasonable. A str 4, a Marine IS capable of tearing into a rhino or Chimera (heck even a Leman Russ, with it's rear armour).

So if you don't like the stats, change them.

Adeptus Astartes can destroy reality simply by thinking it.

I don't even play space marines and I think a SM would defeat a spartan so...

Then again I love 40k as a whole and... dislike all halo (except for the first game)(and I read the books so at least I know about it :p) so I may be a tad biased but honestly just thinking about it in a purely pros/cons way it seems fairly obvious. I'm not going to reitterate what everyone has already said pros/cons wise though, sorry.

Space marine
-WS:4, BS:4, S:4, T:4, W:1, I:4, A:1, LD:8, SV:3+


Spartan
-WS:4, BS:4, S:4, T:4, W:1, I:4, A:1, LD:8, SV:4+ (5+ invulnerable)

That's been done, Solly. In fact, it's exactly what I made it.

I know mate, I can't get the quote to work from this pc.
I don't have any of the options and when I use the short code for bold, italic etc they won't work.

For all who haven't read previous posts the above stats are refined by Emperors Faithful.
As soon as I get home I will put the quote in..

I put the thumbs up to it just for you (",)

Oh thanks.
Actually, I was asking you to provide your own take on what an SM stat line should look like according to fluff. I don't see why everyone seems to be shouting "ZOMG NO WAYS! SPEHS MAHRINS ARE WAY MORE SUPER POWERFULL!!1!"

I SWEAR I already posted marine stats for fluff-fit... OH WAIT I DID!

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:

zane2131 wrote:okay i've thought about it in 40k terms

Space marine
-WS:4, BS:4, S:4, T:4, W:1, I:4, A:1, LD:8, SV:3+
-Bolt gun- S:4, AP:5, rapid fire
I dont have a codex so im not sure about special rules

This is what I've come up with for a spartan
-WS:4, BS:5, S:5, T:4, W:1, I:6, A:2, LD:8, SV:2+

I'm going to ignore EVERYTHING you just said and go ahead and show you what a real Marine in the 40k universe is like.

Taken from the Movie Marines Ruleset:

-WS:5, BS:5, S:6, T:6, W:2, I:5, A:3, LD:9, SV:3+
-Bolt gun- S:6, AP:4, Assault 4 Rending

Oh but wait, that's the average marine. If you're going to be facing him off against Master Chief, I say we use a Sergeant's profile.

-WS:9, BS:5, S:6, T:6, W:4, I:6, A:5, LD:10, SV:3+
-Bolt pistol- S:6, AP:4, Assault 4 Rending
-Chainsword

Seems the odds are now stacked differently.

As for the Spartan having I 6, that's absurd. Spac Marines are designed to be quicker than anything they face even in bulky power armor. Their inner-ear implant let's them be more dextrous than any human, modified or otherwise. And no, a Spartan is not as swift as an eldar by any means.

It would not have a 2+ save either. It would be either a 3-4+ since it's armor is WEAK though its shields are decent. So when its shields go down, the armor is like Carapace armor, which is a 5+ save.

Lastly, the idea a Spartan wins in close combat is hysterical. We're talking average spartan. This means no ENergy Sword, no Gravity Hammer. Just gun butts and fists. Good luck piercing any armor.

Can we put this to rest now? A Spartan has very less genetic modification, less advanced weapons, and even less training in terms of HE HAS TO SLEEP decent amounts, while a Space Marine is sleeping four hours then training for 18 of the next 20 hours.

In all honesty we can't really put stats to a Spartan can we? We can guess all we want but we will, in the end, just argue that the stats are wrong.

Found a nifty piece of info on the interwebz btw. Apparently Spartans can lift 3x their own body weight (2x that of a human's avg. body weight). I read it on halopedia so take of it what you will.

IIRC 180lbs is close to average for human males. If a Spartan weighs double that's 360 lbs meaning they can lift 1080lbs.

@Emperors Faithful
I would go with your assessment.
I accept that Spartans are uber trained humans who perform a similar role to the SM in their own universe.
But they are not quite at the same genetic peak.

The infered invulnerable save is perfect to represent their (spartan) shield.
And the SV4 is good to represent the uber quality Mjolnir armour.

The same benefits as a SM in all other regards is good to represent the same standard of training from an early age.
But the difference in the armour save reflects, ideologically to me, the SM fluffwise ability to kick ass on a large scale
and their production from pre-teen to two metre tall monster, with already imbeded armour in their flesh.

Well, considering SMs can lift vehicles, I'd say that they out-strength a spartan.

If spartans have an invuln. it should be something like the first attack every turn doesn't affect the spartan but due to the shield giving out they must use their normal armor save for the rest of the turn.

Agreed Crazy. Agreed 100%.

First attack is negated regardless of the unit is definitely feasible,
be nice to try it out w/stand-ins.

This would specially reflect the regenerative nature of the shield.

Throwing my hat in the ring, for the stats:

Spartan: WS3 BS4 S4 T3 W1 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv4+/5++
Equipped with: Carapace Armor, Refractor Field, Autogun, Frag Grenades

The Space Marine is the superior soldier, but Spartans are halfway between them and Stormtroopers, so are an unusually dangerous opponent for space marines to be fighting. Either could win, but the Space Marine is favored. Master Chief, if we use standard 40k stats for special characters, would be something like this:

Master Chief: WS4 BS5 S4 T3 W3 I5 A2 Ld9 Sv4+/5++
Equipped with: Carapace Armor, Refractor Field, Power Sword, Dual SMGs, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades
Special Rules: May reroll one dice to hit, to wound, or to save every game turn (Cortana)
Dual SMGs: Range 12" S3 AP- Assault 2, Twin Linked

Master Chief would beat a Tactical Marine in a fight, because he has a name. A Captain or Chapter Master would probably take him down, though.

Does it really matter how powerful a marine is in the fluff?

There are several points in the fluff where marines die and lose battles. you'd just never know that from reading there codex, because it never mentions it. It just talks about how they OMGWTFPWN all other races.

They might be more powerful, but 1. So is almost everyone else, and 2. Its not always enough.

I'm not saying they suck, far from it, I play SW myself, but I don't think they're quite as uber as people say, they're more of in between. Besides, a tac marine has better stats than almost every basic troop of the other armies, what that isn't good enough for you? I think they're good enough myself.

Personally, I don't see the point of these comparison threads. the only thing that could kill a marine is something from 40k, clearly GW has made sure of it.

Thats probably why they're described as being so awesome, GW wants to make sure they're still better than all these other genetically enhanced cliches.

The Spartan came after the Astartes so basically, the Spartan is still but a carbon-copy clone with only half the awesomeness.

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:The Spartan came after the Astartes so basically, the Spartan is still but a carbon-copy clone with only half the awesomeness.

Thats my point, the SM are made out to be so good because GW can't allow them to be weaker than clones. When the game first came out, they were accurately portrayed.

I think Spartans are just as good, but with weaker gear. After all, the technology isn't as advanced in Halo.

I WOULD agree, if not for the sheer difference in the two out of armor. An Astartes is still able to lift a truck, has repetitive organs, and has implants to just let him be outright awesome.

A Spartan, however, has lost his targetting so he is less accurate, has no physical durability beyond a powerful human, and is simply smaller and weaker.

Not to say a Spartan is weak by any means and is in fact quite awesome. But compared to the Astartes, they pale.

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote: But compared to the Astartes, they pale.

Icwutudidthar!

Why would we cram capabilities into a stat range of 3-5 when we could just compare backgrounds? Making stats and then comparing makes no sense.

Oh, and for the records, I have no ill will towards Halo. I like the background and the games. However, Halo and 40k are on such different power levels that comparisons are really pointless.

Precisely. Refer back to previous post stating the Halo fanbois need to realise this please.

ph34r wrote:Why would we cram capabilities into a stat range of 3-5 when we could just compare backgrounds? Making stats and then comparing makes no sense.

Oh, and for the records, I have no ill will towards Halo. I like the background and the games. However, Halo and 40k are on such different power levels that comparisons are really pointless.

If we are just looking at background (which I totally agree is all we need to be looking at) then the spartans definitley lose. How many are left of the Spartan IIs? Less than 10? If that? I don't remember the particulars but IIRC the covenent sort of pwn'd them.

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:I A Spartan, however, has lost his targetting so he is less accurate, has no physical durability beyond a powerful human, and is simply smaller and weaker.

Uh then why was one spartan(forgot his/her name and what book said spartan was from) able to snipe a banshee pilot when the top was down?


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CrazyThang wrote:

ph34r wrote:Why would we cram capabilities into a stat range of 3-5 when we could just compare backgrounds? Making stats and then comparing makes no sense.

Oh, and for the records, I have no ill will towards Halo. I like the background and the games. However, Halo and 40k are on such different power levels that comparisons are really pointless.

If we are just looking at background (which I totally agree is all we need to be looking at) then the spartans definitley lose. How many are left of the Spartan IIs? Less than 10? If that? I don't remember the particulars but IIRC the covenent sort of pwn'd them.

Yeah but the spartans only died when they were against impossible odds. Even then they would have taken out dozens of covenant.

Munch Munch! wrote:

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:I A Spartan, however, has lost his targetting so he is less accurate, has no physical durability beyond a powerful human, and is simply smaller and weaker.

Uh then why was one spartan(forgot his/her name and what book said spartan was from) able to snipe a banshee pilot when the top was down?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CrazyThang wrote:

ph34r wrote:Why would we cram capabilities into a stat range of 3-5 when we could just compare backgrounds? Making stats and then comparing makes no sense.

Oh, and for the records, I have no ill will towards Halo. I like the background and the games. However, Halo and 40k are on such different power levels that comparisons are really pointless.

If we are just looking at background (which I totally agree is all we need to be looking at) then the spartans definitley lose. How many are left of the Spartan IIs? Less than 10? If that? I don't remember the particulars but IIRC the covenent sort of pwn'd them.

Yeah but the spartans only died when they were against impossible odds. Even then they would have taken out dozens of covenant.

The armor aids in aiming quite a bit, even the games say this.

SMs go against impossible odds daily. Look at space hulk boarding parties (and don't give me the "their in terminator armor" excuse, its still easily one of the most dangerous things a marine can do). Granted there are more space marines than there were spartans overall but in single battles not so much.

The "aiming aids" aren't restricted to Mjolnir.

The standard UNSC Marines have the same 'basic' setup, and Mjolnir's setup is a copy of what the ODSTs have.

Just saying, it's not *just* the armor.

I was the 117th vote for space marine. Thats ironic.

Its the strength.
The Space mariens are stronger, the Spartans may be cool and everything but were talking about something in the year 40,000 to a spartan who is from the year 2552.
Ok so there is a big difference.
Humanity has evolved, no matter what people say, but Humanity is pretty advanced.
Plus Space Marines have an extra armor, called the Black Carapace. So the spartans are just out matched in every way.

Go play halo on heroic, or multi player. I consider that to be the 'realistic' toughness of a spartan. Though in the books spartans care comparatively weak. Didnt one of them get fethed up by a single plasma pistol gak, and they basically have to use super tactics. M@stur cheef is super cool if you are a scrub who only plays on easy.

I love halo, I really really really do. But seriously. Thats like comparing the terminator to necron pariahs.

I think if we are going to compare generic marine to generic spartan then the marine comes out on top. And if its master chief then we can put him against say dante or logan. Lets assume chief gets a rocket launcher, with unlimited ammo. A rocket launcher I figure is about equal to a tau missile pod. See how long it takes missile pods to kill any of the marine commanders.

Asherian Command wrote:Its the strength.
The Space mariens are stronger, the Spartans may be cool and everything but were talking about something in the year 40,000 to a spartan who is from the year 2552.
Ok so there is a big difference.
Humanity has evolved, no matter what people say, but Humanity is pretty advanced.
Plus Space Marines have an extra armor, called the Black Carapace. So the spartans are just out matched in every way.

Black Carapace isn't armor.

It's essentially an organ that allows the Astartes a better interfacing with their Power Armour.

Still bulletproof

As bulletproof as your ribcage, maybe.

As bulletproof as THEIR ribcage, which by the way is VERY bulletproof. The Black Carapace does indeed offer a tad bit more extra protection, though no more than a layer of thick clothing.

I thought black carapace was basically flak armor equivalent.

No.

The "Black Carapace" is absolutely nothing other than ossified bone over the ribcage and vital organs.

Ughhh I was to late, you see kids these kinds of threads build up tremendous amounts of nerd rage

But because im posting i mind as well put up my idea.
Space Marine, cause its obviously really about
how bad ass the 2 are. The marine is just pumping with bad assity,
Look at his main weapon, a bolter A BURST ACTION RIFE WITH BULLETS THAT EXPLODE WITHIN YOU
Im sure a spartan looks pretty good to, but this is just to easy.
But in a real fist fight no armor, just skin and boxers, the marine will still win
because unlike the spartan the marine is still huge and a killing machine with out his suit
a spartan with out his armor is just a man with huge tank flipping muscles that's it.

I think a better question might be who would win in a wild west style shootout. A dire avenger or a spartan. Im kinda leaning on the avenger, just because spartan rifles are pathetic by 40k standards.

I have read all the Halo books, and I have to say that if a spartan came across a Space marine his best bet would be to run away and call in a Scorpion.

The Spartans while yes they have fancy armor and have been genetically altered could not match a space marine in any kind of fight. Spartans would basically be in game terms a bit better then storm troopers.

That and the other thing the Spartans weapons wouldn't have a prayer against power amour. That is unless the marine isn't wearing his helmet and is standing completely still.

Well, if you really want to figure it out you can compare different parts of each of them.

Biology:
Spartans have increased reflexes, increased musculature and increased bone growth.
Space Marines have all of these plus extra heart, extra lung (ish), ability to adapted skin, etc, etc, etc.

Armour:
Spartans have an advanced suit which increased strength and provides a large amount of protection as well as the energy shield.
Space Marines have massively thick armour which increases their strength and a huge amount of protection, enough that not even lasguns and bolts will penetrate it, weapons which would normally kill anyone including a Spartan.

Weaponry:
Spartans use slightly more advanced versions of what our army currently uses which pale in comparison to what even the Imperial Guard use.
Space Marines hold giant grenade launchers which they use like assault rifles and would penetrate the energy shield of the Spartans.

They do have a third lung, it's not an ish matter.

Lorgar: You are being fairly hypocritical here.

You have repeatedly attacked those who reckon that a Spartan may have a chance, and have often thrown at the label "halo fanboi". Yet you yourself are practically having an orgasm when describing the awesome pwnage of marine. Even though I feel that a Space Marine would usually come out on top, I have to wince a little at your hyperbole.

Another point, you have often stated that SM can easily lift vehichles. I have to assume your talking about a civilian car or something becuase there is no way in hell that they could lift a Rhino or Chimera. On that same note, while playing Halo, doesn't the Spartan frequently flip over the Warthog and other vehichles? (If you're a crap driver that is)

It seems to me that, despite a slight advantage towards the marine, they are comparable enough in strength.

Speaking of which you can flip the Elephant. That's pretty freaking strong.

OT Munch Munch: Nive Avatar.

Thanks! I think yours is cool too!

*facepalm*

I failed at spelling.

Ah, forget about it!

Halo vehicles are build light and efficient compared to 40k vehicles which are built out of invincible heavytanium. Anything a spartan can flip, a SM can flip. That's just the facts, SM muscle enhancements and power armor is greater than that of a spartan.

Um, where does it say a marine can flip a Rhino?

Maybe with a PF, and Terminators have increased strength with their suit, but a normal marine?

A civilian car? Yes Tank? Thats waaay to strong. I could go on and on the same way about just about any other race.

The point is, the SM would win, but the point here is to simply say that, and I think we all agree that they would. Trust me, Halo fanboys can't possibly be worse than the fanboyism that comes with SM.

The space marine would simple say.

"BY THE EMPEROR'S GRIMDARK ABSURDITY!"

And the spartan would evaporate. As his plot armor is insufficient to stop even a space marine from yelling at him.

The end.

ph34r wrote:Halo vehicles are build light and efficient compared to 40k vehicles which are built out of invincible heavytanium. Anything a spartan can flip, a SM can flip. That's just the facts, SM muscle enhancements and power armor is greater than that of a spartan.

A Scorpion weighs as much, if not more, than a Rhino or Predator.

An Elephant is equivalent in weight class to a Baneblade.

Try again.


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For reference:
http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/M808B_Main_Battle_Tank
Scorpion is 66 tons.

Rhino is 30 tons, unladen, and a Razorback clocks in at 31.5 tons.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Mk1_Rhino.jpg

Wait, since we already said that we are using fluff marines and not game marines is it fair to use game spartans? If it says they can flip a scorpion in fluff, well then that's a great argument point but if it's just in the game...

Because I can't remember anything like this in the books (though I did read them long ago).

I can't remember which specific novel it was, but I do recall a Spartan lifting(and holding) a Scorpion long enough for a pinned Marine to crawl out from under it

I would contest, that Spartans are more powerful in their universe than SM are in their's. Whether or not it makes them better is a different question. To be honest, SM aren't as special, there's way more of them.

it doesn't matter who would kill who, because we all know Spartans would gak themselves if they had to fight the things Space Marines do

Kanluwen wrote:

Henners91 wrote:Space Marines got raped on Maccragge.

They fail.

See how that works?

And let's not even get into all the Astartes Chapters that have been decimated during the course of the more recent Hive Fleets(namely because they keep adding more and more obscure Chapters to get devoured).

Allow me to amend:

Spartans got raped by a bunch of two-foot high cowardly little critters that look like they belong on Telly Tubbies.

Space Marines got raped by a never-ending locust-like horde of terrifying aliens.

I think I know how this compares

So you're saying that the ENTIRE force on Reach was Grunts?

Because Reach was the first *real* encounter by the UNSC of the Elites, which would(theoretically) be comparable to Tyranid Warrior strain.

And Reach was bombarded from orbit for the most part.

Unless my scaling is way off, a Tyranid Warrior should be significantly taller than elite, and probably weigh around 2-3x as much. A Space Marine is as tall as an Elite, and a Warrior is much taller than a Space Marine (in addition to being more heavily built than an Elite).

The ability to flip over tanks in game doesn't really matter much; it's a game mechanic made to allow you to use vehicles after accidentally flipping them, same as the ability to respawn when killed, or to reload dual wielded weapons by just putting them to your sides and waiting. It's not an ability replicated outside of the game, nor is it handled realistically inside the game (he just swats at them and they right themselves). If we start going by what they do when people play Halo, Spartans are going to end up with very little agility (jump! jump! jump! you can't hit me now!), poor aim, zero tactical knowledge, a knack for accidentally killing themselves with their own rocket launchers, a crippling weakness against puddles (in the first one, anyways ), and a habit of throwing out inapplicable racial slurs in the middle of battle.

Being able to prop up a tank is a better example of their strength, and I recall something about them denting tank armor with their bare hands as well. I gave them S4 in my statline, although if SM were S6 I'd probably only give Spartans S5 or so. They're simply not to the same physical scale.

One comparison I would like to make between the spartan armour and Power armour. The SOB use power armour correct? It has been noted that power armour upgrades str and physical speed. I remember a scene where the spartans first see the original armour without shields.

In a video they watch an unaugmented human rip himself by merely trying to move in the armour as it boosted his str and reflexes so much.

The 1080 thrown out earlier was pre-armour capabilities. I would think that after armour it would be significantly more.

On a note I do think the marine would win in a stand up fight or brawl.

However If both were dropped in a swamp and told to hunt the other I give it to the spartan. No bright colored armour for them.

My guess is that the benefits of physical camouflage would be largely negated by the sensory equipment present in both soldiers' armor.

The real question with that though . . .is the marine wearing his helmet?

Well if he's not, the Spartan will subjected to an unstoppable battery of bald screaming!

Note: I never said a Rhino, I said vehicle. This would mean more light armored vehicles and civilian types.

Also, Emperor's Faithful, the quote of someone flipping Warthogs because they drive crappy made me laugh. Another incident of a game representing fluff. And while I do indeed enjoy my 40k as much as the next uber-nerd, the difference is simple. While my information is indeed based on facts/fluff (although saying this seems silly since it's all a written fake universe), the Halo info is more than often based on probabilities, idiotic assumptions, and even insane amounts of repetition. Plus, I don't recall calling a single person here a "halo fanboi" and I never recall bashing a single person, but merely saying I see people's opinions rediculous and they need to stop simply arguing because thy are wrong. Though if I caused you to assume otherwise, I apologize.

Also, for someone named Emperor's Faithful, you sure aren't. The Emperor would frown upon thee.

And the survey says:

SM would kick Spartans ass..

(although saying this seems silly since it's all a written fake universe)
hehehe I suppose that's the fun of doing the poll (",)

I am still standing my ground with the nine foot man in armor that helps and augments his physic. Not saying the Spartans doesn't, i just think that the Spartan would stand very well, and would not go down without a fight, i just think and know that if he gets hit with really any weapon the SM is known it wield he is going to have some pretty serious injuries if not immobilized. My money is on the side with 4 lungs, and 2 hearts with the ability to take a head shot without a helmet and survive with little problem. I agree with Solly here poll kinda speaks the majority of what would happen, SM wins.

Also judging by this picture the spartan has longs since been killed by his betters.

@Lorgar: As I have said, I really do think that in the end, more often than not, a Space Marine would emerge the victor. I DO believe that it would be a fierce contest though, and am not one to go straight for the '"ZOMG! POWER ARMOURZ AND BOLTGUNZ! PEW PEW I WINZ!"

That said, the Spartan could win. If the Emperor wanted him to.

But the Emperor and his faithful do not want the Spartan to win...

Perhaps the Spartan is the Emporer's way of encouraging his finest to try harder next time.

Agreed. SM are much better than Spartans (remember that SM take them about 37,000 years, I think)


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Shaman wrote:

Also judging by this picture the spartan has longs since been killed by his betters.

Nice picture hahahaha

Kilkrazy wrote:Perhaps the Spartan is the Emporer's way of encouraging his finest to try harder next time.

Exactly.

Kilkrazy wrote:Spartan.

His energy shield is proof against all the SM's weapons as long as he can manoeuvre to cover to let it recharge. He is much more manoeuvrable, and he has a helmet.

You know that sniper rifle? yah. the one that hits you in the head through shields and kill the spartan. a bolter shell is like that head shot times about 54 and works on any part of the body. oh yeah the shell it's self is about the length of master chiefs foot. And made of adamantium(as is the power armour)

Slight exaggeration there.

Only slightly indeed. He's pretty much right though.

I don't think a bolter rounds is as big as Mcs foot, but it is fairly large for a bullet.

I want to let you guys know, bolters aren't as effective at close ranges because they actually have to speed up after they leave the barrel, since they're rocket-proppelled or something. So at close ranges, I think a Spartan could take a bolt round and survive. Whether or not its enough for him to win is a different question.

I wonder how teabagging would affect the outcome...

If the SM is teabagging then I'd imagine the Chaplain will admonish him..
If the Spartan teabags for long enough he will suddenly die...

I think that even if the bolter had not gathered enough speed to become volatile
then the actual fist sized hole that would be left in the Spartan would be detrimental to his health..
Or multiple holes, depending on th amount of shots let off by the SM before CC started...

spartans would loose...

a spartan is the best trooper human forces have....they are of few numbers and geared with latest tech.

space marine are a whole race basically....if you say

spartan vs space marine

i say
spartan vs librarian
spartan vs Commander
spartan vs Terminators

think about it if we use the elite trooper of halo world why not use the elite hero of warhammer 40k( space marine only)

Kanluwen wrote:
And it all leads to the fact that this is as stupid of an argument as who would win in a fight between Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee.

Um..this has already been proven that Bruce Lee wins. Way of the Dragon. Watch it

Sorry if I'm late to the party, but isn't a standard bolter round basically a .75 cal HE round? So a grenade moving at the speed of bullet? I don't think Spartan armor could withstand that beyond a round or two. 3 brute shot rounds empty a shield. 2 brute shot rounds kill an unarmored spartan. 5 rounds. Whats the rate of fire and accuracy of bolters? What distance are we shooting at? Whats the spread at said distance? Weather conditions? Flat, symmetrical vaccum combat area? We need more variables to establish a sure winner.

Snikkyd wrote:I don't think a bolter rounds is as big as Mcs foot, but it is fairly large for a bullet.

I want to let you guys know, bolters aren't as effective at close ranges because they actually have to speed up after they leave the barrel, since they're rocket-proppelled or something. So at close ranges, I think a Spartan could take a bolt round and survive. Whether or not its enough for him to win is a different question.

MC's foot? Monstrous Creature? Master-Crafted? Seriously though I'd like to know how long it'd take for a spartan to bleed out from a fist sized hole or two. And thats assuming it hit his body and he can actually still move, if it hits him in the leg its an easy finish for the SM, arm not so much but he'll still bleed out and wont be able to fire rifles acurately or would have to resort to a pistol.

Again assuming the bolt doesn't detonate in his gut like its supposed to.

It brings me joy to have started a thread with so much hatred and confusion.
The gods shall bless me for this victory.

It's not a forum, it's a thread.

Maybe the title of this thread should have been "Who would win, a Spartan (Halo) or an Imperial Guardsman armed with a toothbrush and underpants?"

Who cares. Lordrevege nice trolling!

Red9 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
And it all leads to the fact that this is as stupid of an argument as who would win in a fight between Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee.

Um..this has already been proven that Bruce Lee wins. Way of the Dragon. Watch it

Sorry if I'm late to the party, but isn't a standard bolter round basically a .75 cal HE round? So a grenade moving at the speed of bullet? I don't think Spartan armor could withstand that beyond a round or two. 3 brute shot rounds empty a shield. 2 brute shot rounds kill an unarmored spartan. 5 rounds. Whats the rate of fire and accuracy of bolters? What distance are we shooting at? Whats the spread at said distance? Weather conditions? Flat, symmetrical vaccum combat area? We need more variables to establish a sure winner.

That was the point of the statement, Red

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:It's not a forum, it's a thread.

You got me there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Corsair wrote:Maybe the title of this thread should have been "Who would win, a Spartan (Halo) or an Imperial Guardsman armed with a toothbrush and underpants?"

Somebody isn't a fan of the Master Chief

The thing about warhammer 40k is you dont compare it to others because its set up to bigger, harder, tougher, stronger then the next guy, its just what the games all about. I wouldn't compare it to other games cause warhammer 40k is already set up to be over the top and crazier then anything out there.

In all honesty, the reason I started this thread was to show my friend that SM are indeed better than spartans.

He was dead set that a spartan could kill a SM in an even fight, after he read the Halo books,
But I have read the halo fluff and wayyyy more 40k fluff, and I was pretty sure spartans would be pwnd.

In all seriousness you cant persuade a fanboy any way. Their dead set in there beliefs and stories, but i think arguing for games that have nothing to do with each other never ends well. keep it in the same universe.

Necrogoblikon wrote:In all seriousness you cant persuade a fanboy any way. Their dead set in there beliefs and stories, but i think arguing for games that have nothing to do with each other never ends well. keep it in the same universe.

Yes, my pal was rather implacable on this subject.

True that.
Although I do enjoy Dakka Dakka, I will admit that they are biased in their opinion, as would a Halo forum.

We've all seen Red vs Blue... the challenges a Spartan would face in the midst of battle in his own box canyon are nothing compared to the horrors an Astartes has to face between waking up on a morning and taking his first pee.

Corsair wrote:We've all seen Red vs Blue... the challenges a Spartan would face in the midst of battle in his own box canyon are nothing compared to the horrors an Astartes has to face between waking up on a morning and taking his first pee.

Yes. Yes.

The thing about 40k is, the only universes that it loses to are ones that are on an even more ridiculous scale, post-scarcity or post-singularity factions such as The Culture, or judging from my limited knowledge of AT-43 the Therians (they have multiple galaxies/universes, right? I know for sure they have Dyson Spheres).

AAAAAAAARGH!!! How the feth can this thread go on for 8 pages?!? Again!

Anyone else wanna push it to 9 before the Modquisition sees the topic is over?

*push*

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:Anyone else wanna push it to 9 before the Modquisition sees the topic is over?

*push*

No. You should be ashamed of yourself. This thread has a high likey-hood of becoming off topic

*push*

That's because the children were the only active participants on the Spartan side.

*kicks*

Says the 10 year old. *rolls eyes*

ph34r wrote:The thing about 40k is, the only universes that it loses to are ones that are on an even more ridiculous scale, post-scarcity or post-singularity factions such as The Culture, or judging from my limited knowledge of AT-43 the Therians (they have multiple galaxies/universes, right? I know for sure they have Dyson Spheres).

Or have maaaaggggiiiiiccccc.

I've gotten 2 threads locked today. Let's see if I can make it 3...

A Space Marine would destroy a Spartan. Period.

But a Spartan can make whoopy. Winner - Spartan.

Cuz I doesn't matter who the alpha male is if he has been neutered.

Cool story bro

Emperors Faithful wrote:Says the 10 year old. *rolls eyes*

If I was ten my sentences would not be formed with the strength of the grandest of writers, would they? Shakespeare would be jealous! /itrollu.jpg

But I'm the ten year old.

I understand the critique on fanbois from one game slagging another game or their heor being undefeatable etc

However I like both games and play Halo online, have read some of the fluff and enjoy the back story of the HaloUniverse
but I also play 40K, have read alot of the fluff and enjoy the multitude of back stories for the 40kverse..

I still believe that SM would kick Spartan ass!! Into the dustbin and then use the Mjolnir armour as a throw toy for his pet tau...

So.... 9 pages eh??

Spam alert (",)

Time to jump on the bandwagon.

Somewhat on topic: This did spark a rather lengthy debate with my friends, but we ultimately agreed that the SM would kick ass.

Xca|iber wrote:Somewhat on topic: This did spark a rather lengthy debate with my friends, but we ultimately agreed that the SM would kick ass.

Yep, we kinda got that in here too (",)

SM rule!! (Except Orkz)

Marine would kick so much ass it's incomprehensible.

And if he used a plasma gun to kick everyone's arses he could in theory kick everyone's AND his own arse

A spartan is probably comparable to a space marine scout with a refractor field and BS5, but WS3. Not saying he cant fight in hand to hand. But in halo hand to hand combat is not nearly as intense as it is in 40k.

Now this bears in mind. Is it a loyalist marine or a member of a chaos god legion? IE Berzerker, Noise Marine, Plague Marine, Thousand Son

Can you imagine the horrible things a noise marine could do with those 4 squid jaws on an elite

Standard Imperial Marine versus Standard UNSC Spartan.

If we get into probabilities about chaos marines vs Spartans then I don't have much hope for the UNSCs finest!
Or the Haloverse as a whole (",)

Yay! 9 pages!!

9 pages and counting you mean!

CrazyThang wrote:9 pages and counting you mean!

Exactly (",)

Solly wrote:Standard Imperial Marine versus Standard UNSC Spartan.

If we get into probabilities about chaos marines vs Spartans then I don't have much hope for the UNSCs finest!
Or the Haloverse as a whole (",)

Yay! 9 pages!!

Now...am I crazy enough to start a whole new thread based around this question. No, no I'm not.

I can't believe this is even up for discussion. Astartes don't even take the Sue meter up to 11, they take it up to like 13. They're freaking immortal monstrosities in thick armor with a list of abilities that sounds like an 11 year old tried to come up with a new superhero. ("Ooh, ooh, and he can spit acid! Oh yeah, and he can eat his foes to gain their memories!").

Granted Spartans are pretty decently high on the sue scale, but not so much more than your average sci-fi elites. They haven't even reached the "Jedi" section of the sue scale, let alone the "Space Marine" scale.

Space Marine, As long as the Spartan only hits him in the shoulders...

Giant friggin shoulderpads FTW

How is this even being discussed? It's like comparing a Guard Veteran to a space marine. Maybe 2 spartans could win, but not a 1 on 1.

Pika_power wrote:Superman could, considering he can shatter reality by singing. After all, he's a god mode sue.

Shinji Ikari could in his Eva Unit seeing as in their universe only another Angel or Eva can break through the AT field.

You guys obviously never read the halo books. Space Marines and Spartans are pretty much the same thing. They both move really fast, are extremely strong, have awesome armor, etc: And spartans in the books are just as over the top as marines in the books.

You might as well ask: who would win in a fight between a guy from north dakota and a guy from south dakota?

You can't even call them apples & oranges; It's more like red apples & green apples.

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:You guys obviously never read the halo books. Space Marines and Spartans are pretty much the same thing. They both move really fast, are extremely strong, have awesome armor, etc: And spartans in the books are just as over the top as marines in the books.

You might as well ask: who would win in a fight between a guy from north dakota and a guy from south dakota?

You can't even call them apples & oranges; It's more like red apples & green apples.

And you didn't take into account the Xbawx pauldrons of the Space Marine! He could just unsling one of them, scoop up the spartan and crush him on his other shoulder! Orange juice style motherf#*@!

IMO it could go either way...although the SM has better weapons than the Spartan the Spartans shield could give him an advantage. And i think the Spartan would be more tactical when fighting the Space Marine. Space Marines tactic in books at least is usually to shoot until your close enough to hit something with your sword...

Stop arguing this point, read previous pages, then post a kick to take it to the tenth page!

*kick*

Okay, this appears to have gone on long enough.