Maybe I am just a crusty old grognard here and remember the old days as being better even if they weren't, but I can't shake the feeling that Dakka is turning into a Warseer or B&C.

When I came here way back when, this place was like the wild west. You ran your mouth and you got called out. You said something stupid and you got flamed like crazy for it. I am pretty sure there were people who cried themselves to sleep after getting a royal reaming by some of the regulars.

Now I have new people telling me to be nice and not hurt anyone's feelings. People are coming on the boards and saying that math hammer is dumb and pointless, that units should be used because they are fluffy? Take that to the other boards where they like the same things. This is Dakka for crying out loud!

What is going on here? Dakka was where you came to learn how to win the game, not get a pat on the back and cuddle with a fluff bunny!

Where are the old guys anyway, like Mauleed, Tigerbaby, and all the others? I have not seen a 3 page flame war with death threats and people calling each other out for the next tournament in forever. Everyone is playing with kid gloves on now. It feels like Dakka is losing what made it unique. Dakka is lsoing the swagger that made me love the place

This was a place where you had to support your claims and if you made a ridiculous statement you got slammed. It was not polite and it was not nice but it made me a better player without question, and it made me realize that you can't go running your mouth about the game when you are unable to walk what you talk.

Does anyone else feel this way or am I just missing the good old days?

I swear it seems like Dakka is changing from a whiskey drinking, bare knuckles saloon into a wine bar in the suburbs.

Well, I don't know about all that WAAC tournament crap, but you're right, the manners nazis are pretty hard core. However, Warseer is still much, much worse. I barely ever even lurk there, because it seems like most of the threads are started by tween glue-sniffers. At least here on Dakka, you have the off topic forum to indulge in silliness if the TFG stank on the 40K boards gets too thick, and it can. Is that enough straight talk for you? I may not be Stelek, but then again, that era is over.

Stelek got run out of here because he was so obnoxious. He knows the game, but he was the most condescending ass ever to grace these boards.

And WAAC tournament crap was EXACTLY what this place used to be about! It was what made it different here from the other boards. Without that it just starts to fade into the background. This was where you learned to play the best competitive game form the best competitive gamers and if you couldn't stand the criticism you left. No one cried about stuff, they just toughened up or left and that was that.

It just seems like the meek are inheriting Dakka. I liked it when it was a rough and tumble place. We weren't abject dick heads to one another, but no one worried about calling a spade a spade, either.

I too have noticed an increase in the Casual Gamer Mafia here at Dakka. I used to make the comment that if you want to learn what the rules actually say, go to Dakka.

In YMDC, it was all about what the rules actually said rather than what people want them to say, and the denigrating of the character of people explaining what the rules actually say rather than making actual logical arguments.

It was a time long ago. A time of myth and legend. When 4th Ed. was still young. The ancient posters were petty and cruel, and they plagued Dakka for their sport. Plagued them with suffering. Besieging them with terrors. The people had nowhere to turn. No one to look to for help.

It was awesome.

Do you really have to be an ass to discuss tactics, object and explain your rationale, and have a conversation about the game? Really?

If you cant function without a flame war then that's sad. Id much rather come to a forum that has logical and mannered discussions where I can actually LEARN instead of asking a question and having it turn into an all out flame war. Im thankful for (most) of the help and tactics discussion that goes on here.

Yeah, sadly certain people have ruined what YMDC used to be when even I first arrived here a few years ago.

I am new but if there is a vote I am on team prolific swearing

I've been on here a year and if you seen my posts in loud mouths threads you would know I'm not afraid of calling someone out (even though the next 10 posts were defending the douch). I'm all about becoming a better player but half the post on here offering advice is like sifting through garbage for food. We meet the other day at the BSB (I was the guy in the checkered sweatshirt)and was hoping to get a match but I need more practice. I play against alot of different armys but still dont see them all (just need a little more experiance), Mabey at the next GT. I think alot of people only into the hobby side are mistaken about all players wanting to be good being WAAC players. I like lots of aspects of this hobby (like I love to paint my minis) but playing a fluff bunny is no challange and does not make for a fun game to me.

@the kerrick

People were passionate and stood up for their point of view and backed it with facts. Now everyone is so damn polite it hurts.

Be polite in real life, come to Dakka for the straight dope on what works, what doesn't and how the game plays.

You think you learn stuff now? I shudder at half the crap I see people post here in the tactics section, it is seriously watered down compared to what it used to be.

That is why I loved it! The bad advice got tossed out and people stopped posting garbage.

It felt like the only honest place on the net for 40K, free of bs. Now sometimes it went too far, but I would rather have that than a bunch of tea drinking mama's boys who can't take a slightly impolite statement without having a conniption fit.

Ask any of the old guys, we all LIKED it that way it was. It was exciting! Socially conforming politeness is bland and boring.

Yeah because you know, there's no way to have constructive information on a forum without everyone acting like slowed roid raging 13 year olds. (Not a jab any 13 year olds, but you get the point)

@Grimgob
Yeah man, good to meet you!

People who think tournament players are evil just don't get it. At a tournament everyone is cool and having a good time, half of us went and drank beers together after words. It is the competition that we crave! It is exciting!

I love to pain and model and read the books too, and every Saturday I play a beer and pretzels game with my friends with fluff oriented lists. I like that too, and I am a courteous, nice opponent at the table (as my sportsmanship scores will attest) but I like a tough game against a good player, it is more engaging!

That was what Dakka was, a place where the tournament players hung out and traded GOOD advice, not just wild opinions.

No you're spot on actually. Now if you want to win you are "TFG" and are ruining wargaming.

avantgarde wrote:It was a time long ago. A time of myth and legend. When 4th Ed. was still young. The ancient posters were petty and cruel, and they plagued Dakka for their sport. Plagued them with suffering. Besieging them with terrors. The people had nowhere to turn. No one to look to for help.

It was awesome.

a long time ago in FOURTH ed....


oh lord god emperor how far things fall.... get over it and talk some gak yall!!

@Razzle
A little heavy on the hyperbole there my friend. It wasn't like that, well, maybe a little when it got heated, haha, but the point was that you got honest to goodness, tried and true, brass tacks advice on how to build a good list and how to play the game well and by the rules.

Your argument that flaming and death threats "enables" logical and accurate discussion is flawed and I think it's pretty hilarious that you think it's valid.

Dude.

It was sarcasm.

Reecius wrote:@the kerrick

People were passionate and stood up for their point of view and backed it with facts. Now everyone is so damn polite it hurts.

Be polite in real life, come to Dakka for the straight dope on what works, what doesn't and how the game plays.

You think you learn stuff now? I shudder at half the crap I see people post here in the tactics section, it is seriously watered down compared to what it used to be.

That is why I loved it! The bad advice got tossed out and people stopped posting garbage.

It felt like the only honest place on the net for 40K, free of bs. Now sometimes it went too far, but I would rather have that than a bunch of tea drinking mama's boys who can't take a slightly impolite statement without having a conniption fit.

Ask any of the old guys, we all LIKED it that way it was. It was exciting! Socially conforming politeness is bland and boring.

Im all for standing up for facts and tactics, especially when they are backed by sound reasoning. Thats what a tactics board should be like. I dont think being polite, and tactical discussions are mutually exclusive. I reserch my army a lot, and I honestly do not see all this garbage that gets posted. Occasionally there is the bad thread, but I can usually avoid them by noticing the bad spelling or a host of other small reasons. I do not get the feeling of wading through garbage for a gem. On the other hand though, I wasn't there in the "good ole days".

Either way, maybe something like the article section should be expand or streamlined, or maybe a separate forum that is only open to people that have a MODs consent or certain post count. Im all for those kind of things.

Im not a little mommas boy, but I find that things being slung around like that can be detrimental to a good discussion of tactics. Which defeats the original purpose of posting here in the first place. So if your throwing out insults, is your aim really to win at all costs or just to poke fun at the guy?

Also I love competition. I think power lists are awesome, I think winning is awesome, I think good long and tough game are awesome. I just dont think that donkey-caves are awesome.

Let me put it this way.

My introduction to Dakka went like this:

I came on thinking I was hot gak and new the game better than anyone.

I made some bold statements and the regulars called me out. When I was unable to back up what I said, everyone laughed at me and told me to get my gak straight before I opened my mouth again.

What happened? I got my feelings hurt and felt like an idiot and thought everyone was a jerk at Dakka. Then, I thought about it and realized they were right and I swas the one being an idiot.

So, I came back, learned the rules and my game better and as a result became much, much better at the game. It taught me to become more analytical about the game and as a result, a better player.

That is good! When everyone is just nice to each other and reinforce everyone's crappy tactics and lists just to avoid being rude, you are actually doing them a DISSERVICE!

By serving me a slice of humble pie and forcing me to look at the reality of the game, I became a better player because of it.

It seems to me that as newer users, such as myself, began posting, and older members posted less and less.

Now, I can understand the competitive scene going down a tad, and I'm also a bit saddened by this. Casual gamers full of prim and proper self-righteous bullgak keep ripping on tournament players, and it's seriously getting on my nerves.

Who the hell are they, to judge someone for playing differently than they, who are trying to appeal to the majority anyway? I mean, I'm almost ashamed to have to defend casual gamers, who shouldn't need defending at all! If you're all about doing what you think is fun, but someone finds being competitive fun, I guess it's okay to rip on the evil Tournament Gamer because he's all about winning eh? Typical hypocritical crap. If you ask me, GW seems to be appealing to the casual gamer, and puts the tournament gamer in what appears to be a poor light. Just because you compete doesn't make you a WAAC TFG.

I mean, if I write a poor list, tell me that it's poor. That's the main reason I post lists anyway, because even though they tend to have themes behind them, I'm still human, and I'd rather win than lose. If that gets me branded as a WAAC TFG'er by the casual gaming community, than so be it, because at the end of the day, some of us enjoy the challenge.

And as for the flaming, it's not gone yet. And in a way, I like it. Let's take a nice look at YMDC. Gwar! takes a lot of crap just because he's an RAW advocate. So what? Just because you have some lame interpretation of the rule means that you're right? It's the rule AS WRITTEN, AS IT IS MEANT TO BE. No, Marneus Calgar doesn't get a bonus attack from wielding the Gauntlets of Ultramar, because he's carrying a power weapon, and the rulebook clearly states that if he carries (that's CARRIES, not WIELDS) more than 1 type of complex weapon he's not getting the bonus. I understand if some RAI is in order (Termie Librarians and sweeping advance, for example) but at the end of the day, rules are RULES.

@thekerrick
I agree with what you are saying and I think we are saying the same thing in basic principal. We both want to get the best advice possible.

From my perspective I just see the quality of the advice here deteriorating with every year and I think it is because the casual gaming mafia types don't get scared off like they used to. It used to be a scary place here, no joke. You didn't pipe up unless you really knew what you were saying because you knew you would get flamed like crazy if you made a mistake. It forced people to be on points and not just post off the cuff.

I used to do research out of my books before posting just to avoid getting blasted, and that ensured that the qaulity here was high.

Is that rude? Yes, but it worked.

This used to a place with a lot more lurkers than posters.

What was it mauleed used to tell people? Read more and post less?

It is true! Listen first before you run your mouth like I did when I was an arrogant punk ass kid, and you learn something.

It just feels that Dakka doesn't have the authority for tactics and list building and rules calls like it used to. People just post things willy nilly and it is annoying.


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@Cryonicleech
I agree with you man.

Interesting points - i consider my self pretty new to Dakka dakka, and whilst I think politeness and manners are important, its also important not to crush genuine debate.

However I dont find the mods here heavy handed on genuine debate. What they do get rid of is boring repetitiveness where a good debate decends into
- "Oblits rule all"
- - "no they dont"
- "yes they do"
ad nauseum.

Another great example was Oswitz's ridiculous Ork list. Sure, the win record was impressive, but Lord almighty it was a poor list. And after getting his ass handed to him by DashofPepper, in the end, did he lose out? No, he learned something. His list was bad, but that doesn't tell the whole story. He LEARNED from his experience, and shut his mouth, and will probably write a better list because of it. In fact, if he's reading this, I encourage him to keep re-working that list, because there's some serious potential in it, and if he works at it and learns what works/what doesn't, he might get a good list and maybe even win a tourney.

I've been on Dakka since ~2000. I hope I haven't had to resort to rude posts, in order to convey meaning.

Polite discourse doesn't have to be shallow; see the 11+ pages on Tyranids between Mahu & Shep.

Reecius wrote:I used to do research out of my books before posting just to avoid getting blasted, and that ensured that the qaulity here was high.

Oh, definitely this. I lurked on Dakka for over 2 years because of this. Now I can just post random gak and no one says anything.

To be honest, the flaming did enforce a very strict set of guidelines for list writing. You're stuff had to be up to community standards or someone would call your list a piece of crap. Like HBMC and old IG, there was one accepted best way to take line guard doctrines: Iron Discipline, Close Order Drill, Drop Vets, Rough Riders and maybe Camoleoline.

While I havent been here for nearly as long as some of the older posters I would love for it to go back to how you describe it... I cant help but think its because of the time we live in... GW aims for the little kids who will spend money, etc etc... They also have huge egos and think they are the best (going up to vetren gamers they dont know and telling them their IG could beat them)... And the internet is huge on youth these days... This in all adds together to make overwhelmed ego crazed snotlings who usually cant back up what they say and get butt hurt about name calling... Granted weve all said some stupid stuff before and got burned for it, but whether or not you take the defeat and learn from it... or falsly defend your case and get butt hurt... makes a big difference...

I sure as hell don't miss the old Dakka, which was a clique of belligerent morons patting each other in the back and making outsiders feel unwelcome and stupid. Thankfully, that obnoxious dick-waving culture has all but vanished from the Internet, with 4chan being its foremost bastion today. The rest of us have grown up, in a moral and most of all in the physical sense.

The only people who miss "the old days" are the guys who were on top back then. Nobody's about to say "I wish I got flamed to hell and back every time I made a stupid mistake because English is not my native language", or "I just wrote my first army list and I hope to Jebus people will make fun of me for 50 posts because apparently I'm a crosseyed monkey who should go back to playing twiddlywinks", or even "Nobody's made me break out in tears all day, this forum is rubbish!"

This isn't the Wild West anymore. If anything, Dakka needs much more active moderation to enforce its rules because there's still so many people who think posting here is a right, not a privilege.

Pft.

Rose-tinted glasses much?

Kanluwen wrote:Rose-tinted glasses much?

Well that was nice and vague. Explain the conclusions underlying that argument.

Kanluwen wrote:Pft.

Rose-tinted glasses much?

Agamemnon2 wrote: Well that was nice and vague. Explain the conclusions underlying that argument.

Here it comes, the old Dakka!

Fight Fight!

No.

I was just pointing out that Kanluwen's post was not at all helpful since he's not indicating to whom it's directed, or what part of their views he disagrees with.

Oh man, I can't wait for the biting, sardonic - yet highly intelligent discussion this disagreement is about to erupt in!

I'm assuming it's toward Reecius' nostalgic view of the Old Dakka.

I don't think the flaming is what was good, it was the advice. Solid advice on what worked/what didn't.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Rose-tinted glasses much?

Well that was nice and vague. Explain the conclusions underlying that argument.

It was a general statement about the thread, not specifically aimed at your statement Ag.

But if you want a real conclusion?

During "the good old days", people complained about the overall hostility that was present in things as simple as critiquing army lists.
Even when stating at the beginning "This is not intended for tournament play, but for a local campaign game building off army background" you had the yahoos saying things like Ogryn were idiotic(for a Guard regiment that has its background of being based near a heavily populated Ogryn world , etc) or the yahoos who tried to constantly argue the background's "set ideas" as being open to interpretation.

I don't miss those days, at all.

You weren't around during the good old days, Kanluwen, judging by your joined date.

You're really one to talk.

ph34r wrote:You weren't around during the good old days, Kanluwen, judging by your joined date.

It is possible to read the forums without joining them. Considering the general level of hostility on this board quite a few people are likely to have read it for a long time before gaining the courage to pipe up.

I know I did.

Frankly I still find dakka to be the most hostile, dick swinging, my way or the highway 40k forum on the web. It's improved a lot in a short time (thank god Stelek is gone is all I'll say) but is still hardly a friendly place.

Yet in amongst all this there is some genuine insight and solid tactical advice.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:
Frankly I still find dakka to be the most hostile, dick swinging, my way or the highway 40k forum on the web. It's improved a lot in a short time (thank god Stelek is gone is all I'll say) but is still hardly a friendly place.

I have to agree with that. 4chan's /tg/ board (a board dedicated to things like D&D and Warhammer) is more friendly than Dakka. Even with elitist jerks like Stelek gone this is a pretty hostile place.

Especially the OT forum. I personally think that should be removed because it leads to so much butthurt and pointless flaming.

Kanluwen wrote:You're really one to talk.

Unless you were in an extremely late batch of imports, which I admit is possible, you did not have an account on old Dakka. As I cannot read minds I basing my posts on the most logical information available to me. Your join date suggests that you created an account in the first weeks of the new DakkaDakka website.

@bravelybravesirrobin: indeed, though I do not know how far back 'Kanluwen's "good old days" are, or how long he read the forums. I know that I read the forums starting some time around 2001 or 2002, and I would consider the years around that time the "good old days". Dakka now is better than it was a year or two ago though, for sure.


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Cheese Elemental wrote:Especially the OT forum. I personally think that should be removed because it leads to so much butthurt and pointless flaming.

I couldn't agree more with this. No good has come out of the OT forum, only people inflating their post counts and getting mad at each other.

Maybe I am looking back at things through Rose tinted glasses and am just being a pain in the ass, but I really liked the old ways here.

I don't advocate people being jerks for no reason, but when we had retribution in place for senseless posts it really did force people to double check their facts before posting.

And so what if it was a bit intimidating for new people? It forced people to learn the rules of the game and gain some knowledge before adding to the conversation. I know guys like Green Blow Fly, Myself, Ozzy, Beef and many others sort of had to earn our spurs and prove we knew a thing or two before being taken at least a little seriously.

When anyone can post willy nilly it dilutes the real gems of useful knowledge. If you wanted to hang out in a forum that was more geared towards friendly conversation (which is fine) you didn't come here.

Every time I went into the tactics, YMDC or Army List sections I actually LEARNED something. There were so many insightful posts and information backed by hard facts, it was great.

Now I hardly even bother to go into those sections because so much of it is sheer crap from a tactics standpoint.

Maybe that is just a side effect of me growing older and having amassed more information about the game into this noodle of mine. Who knows.

For better or worse though, I do miss the old atmosphere in Dakka. It was an exciting place! People got pissed off and fought, there were big rivalries, and yes, there were a lot of big egos, but I'll take all that color and the best game knowledge over a bland but polite forum with 50% useless information on it. All the dick waving and cliques and egos made the place very entertaining!

Dakka is still my number 1, it's just turning into a love hate relationship these days.

My favorite part of it now is talking to my friends and meeting new people in real life to bs with and have some fun games.

Dakka was gak back then and it was populated by a lot of people who were often not very nice and people used to make excuses for them. some how a high post count made people excuse boorish and often childish behavoir. Muleed springs to mind - he could argue that black was blue even when shown a color swatch with black paint on it and be a total prick about it in the process.

Yes Dakka was the wild west, but you know what, the wild west was gak as well if you talk about reality and not the Hollywood version.

so yes, I agree with Ag. I am sure he is horrified.

Yeah, Mauleed may have been a dick sometimes, but he knew what the hell he was talking about and he backed up with tournament wins. His tactical advice actually meant something, unlike a lot of the yahoos we have spouting off now.

Well, I guess you take the good with the bad.

My only point is that if you want a nice place to hang out where everyone is friendly, you have other boards that provide that. Dakka was unique because of its atmosphere.

Reecius wrote:Yeah, Mauleed may have been a dick sometimes, but he knew what the hell he was talking about and he backed up with tournament wins. His tactical advice actually meant something, unlike a lot of the yahoos we have spouting off now.

Well, I guess you take the good with the bad.

My only point is that if you want a nice place to hang out where everyone is friendly, you have other boards that provide that. Dakka was unique because of its atmosphere.

Information is judged in the manner it is given. He failed on that count. You are also forgetting the completely stupid positions he used to take and could never ever ever ever ever admit the might be the slightest chance he was wrong.

"where everyone is friendly" - oh my, what a horrible place that is. Now feth off and pad your post count with something a bit meaningful. p.s your army choice sucks because you are an idiot.

Yes, loved the old dakka.

Hahahaha, you must have gotten it worse than others back then!

Hey, your opinion is just as valid as my own, I was just voicing my own because these changes I have been seeing have been bugging me.

If you prefer to have a bunch of useless posts floating around that provide nothing substantial, then that is your prerogative. I don't.

I liked the old way. The big egos and bullies didn't bug me, in fact, they entertained me!

And telling me to feth off and that my army sucks brings back some good memories! Hahahaha.

As the newbie that I am, I can't say if Dakka has changed or not. But reading your impressions of the "old" Dakka, I'll say that I like better a place where different views on the gaming are allowed, instead of a full-competitive or full-casual attitude.

I enjoy both sides :\

I've been on plenty of forums where there's a core of regulars who completely get their rocks off on ostracizing the newbies, and I'll tell you, it gets old fast.

That said, I personally don't mind if Dakka was a little less carebear. I think newbies should get some leniency, for sure, but there are one or two members around I'd like to tell to shut the hell up.

Overall, I think we have a decent balance for the time being. I love some of the OT shenanigans, no lie.

Reecius wrote:Hahahaha, you must have gotten it worse than others back then!

Hey, your opinion is just as valid as my own, I was just voicing my own because these changes I have been seeing have been bugging me.

If you prefer to have a bunch of useless posts floating around that provide nothing substantial, then that is your prerogative. I don't.

I liked the old way. The big egos and bullies didn't bug me, in fact, they entertained me!

And telling me to feth off and that my army sucks brings back some good memories! Hahahaha.

Oh I had so good vicious exchanges in my past with several people. never posted a list up that I can remember but jeez that was a shark pit back then.

I think the point I was trying to make was there is no reason why there cannot be both. Part of the reason that many of the ol'guard are no longer around is many of them may have moved on to another stage in their life. That is where I am. Shoot I am getting rid of all my 40k stuff at the minute. Had enough of it all really. Not because of Dakka changing but because I am.


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Commander Endova wrote:I've been on plenty of forums where there's a core of regulars who completely get their rocks off on ostracizing the newbies, and I'll tell you, it gets old fast.

That said, I personally don't mind if Dakka was a little less carebear. I think newbies should get some leniency, for sure, but there are one or two members around I'd like to tell to shut the hell up.

Overall, I think we have a decent balance for the time being. I love some of the OT shenanigans, no lie.

Why don't you then? Stuff 'em.

oh yes ... nothing like winding the republicans up in the OT!

fullheadofhair wrote:

Commander Endova wrote:I've been on plenty of forums where there's a core of regulars who completely get their rocks off on ostracizing the newbies, and I'll tell you, it gets old fast.

That said, I personally don't mind if Dakka was a little less carebear. I think newbies should get some leniency, for sure, but there are one or two members around I'd like to tell to shut the hell up.

Overall, I think we have a decent balance for the time being. I love some of the OT shenanigans, no lie.

Why don't you then? Stuff 'em.

I don;t want to get the  bannzored. *emo tears*

@fullheadofhair
Fair play, and I think you are right that a lot of the old boys just sort of moved on.

I don't take stuff on the net seriously which is why I think I liked old Dakka so much, I laughed when everyone started throwing the insults because a lot of them, like Abadabbadoobadon, Tigerbaby and Jester, made me nearly pee my pants in laughter with their insults because they were so outrageous.

The funny thing is though, that no matter how bad it got (and I had some heated arguments, especially with Stelek, that sissy called Yakface on me many a time) it was all in fun, at least to me.

I kept coming back because being here truly made me better at the game. I didn't mind the locker room atmosphere at all, in fact I liked it. The other forums just didn't come close to the level of good advice you got here.

@Reecius

Here's my advice:

http://www.invisionfree.com/

thekerrick wrote: I reserch my army a lot, and I honestly do not see all this garbage that gets posted. Occasionally there is the bad thread, but I can usually avoid them by noticing the bad spelling

Anyone else amused by the irony?

Reecius wrote:I don't advocate people being jerks for no reason, but when we had retribution in place for senseless posts it really did force people to double check their facts before posting.

It may have forced some to double check their facts.
How many did it 'encourage' to just not post at all?

And so what if it was a bit intimidating for new people?

If new people are discouraged from joining, the community stagnates and eventually dwindles away.


Sure, the overall 'vibe' of Dakka has changed. Everything does. From my experience, a forum's tone and feel are largely influenced by the prominent posters. The most visible parts of the community. People largely take their cues on appropriate behaviour from these posters, and it all trickles on down.

So as more of the 'old guard' moved on and were replaced, the 'newer guard' started setting the tone. And the current trend is more geared towards remembering that this is, after all, just a game of toy soldiers. And that, speaking as someone who was here during the 'good old days' can only be a good thing.

I'd prefer a little less 'sugar coating' myself. However, the fact is that Dakka's population has escalated massively in the past few years. That is what has lead to a dilution of the 'play to win' attitude as more and more casual players (and more and more younger players) have 'discovered' dakka.

The moderated manners tightening on dakka has been inevitable as the population has increased. If it were any other way, the mods would never get through all the /reports of rule#1 breaches.

As to the attitude on the army list choices, hell I liked Stelek's opinions due to the fact that he is good at picking out interesting armies and choice combinations, he did, however, make the conscious effort to fall out with the management here and, as a moderately belligerent individual myself, I have to say that's difficult given their stance of reasonable and polite requests.

My own personal loathing is the emperor's new clothes of RAW as it's currently being touted, which seems to consist of taking anything that's written in the codex/rulebook and combining it to make clearly illogical or ludicrous results. Then it's followed by a folding of the arms and a smug 'I'm right, it's there in black and white' stance. I do miss the old ability to hold a civil debate on the rules and the ways in which they could be interpreted instead of one or two mouthpieces finding ridiculous combination of rulings and then touting it as the New New Testament (see the discussion on taking Leman Russ tanks in WH/DH armies after the new Imp G codex came out). People that believe they can 'win' the discussion by endlessly spamming the thread till everyone else goes home and they are left on top of the hill crowing about winning despite there being noone else left there to listen to them (until the FAQ is released by GW which states they are wrong, at which point they then decide that FAQs aren't really rules and should be ignored as long as it keeps their own arrogant belief aloft). These same devotees of 'THE NEW RAW' then call anyone else who does not share their frankly autistic vision RAI cheaters, claiming those people are more concerned with fluff, when many are actually concerned with What Works and Is Fair Play. They 'gang up' and pillory those that argue with them until those 'RAI cheaters' sigh and leave YMDC.

So, for the old days, I miss YMDC as it was before that trend caught on and cults of self and 'winning the argument' became more important that reaching a sensible accord on a lack of clarity in what we all agree are shaky and less than perfect rules.

Honestly? If I'd come here in Ye Olde Dayes I'd never have joined. I've got no problem with someone explaining to me that I'm making a mistake and getting advice on how to fix the problem. But if someone's an ass to me over it? I won't listen to them, even if they're right. In the end of the day this is a hobby I use to relax, the little bit of 'me' space away from the kids. The last thing I want is someone who thinks they're the most awesomest of awesome ever telling me I'm an idiot because I like using Daemonhunters or some such.

I have no problem with tournament players, but I prefer not to play them either. Simply because, often at least, we're after two different things...the tournament player wants a challenge/to crush his enemies into dust, to hear the lamentations of his women depending on the person. I'm there purely to enjoy myself. Win, loose, or draw so long as I have fun? All good. While I certainly like to win it's just not that important. And there's nothing that kills my mood as fast as the following conversation;

Opponent: You can't meltabomb that tank. The model doesn't have a meltabomb, so it's no right.

Me: Huh? *Picks up model* So it doesn't. Ah, here it is. It must have got broken off in the case.

Opponent: No, it wasn't on the model. That meltabomb could be from anywhere!

Me: No, you can see where the paint has come away...

Of course, that was the win at all costs breed. There are plenty of tournament players who won't try something like this, or wouldn't demand you get rid of the Russ in your Wittchunters list because the IG book says no such unit exists and it doesn't matter what the FAQ says, that's just there house rules. I've simply run into too many tournament guys like that to be anything but wary of playing them. Win at all costs includes the other guys enjoyment of the game, after all.

So I'm pretty glad Dakka isn't like that now. I like it here.

I lurked on Dakka for ages before joining. For me it is the most lively forum of it's type and you can still get away with a lot that you couldn't on some of the others out there.

I come from an ex-forces background so am used to piss taking and getting crap for being the FNG, but there are others who are not so robust. For some this will be an issue of age and life experience, once they mature they will be able to ignore or certainly not take negative comments to heart. Others just seem to enjoy being offended and firing up the outrage bandwagon, as long as they have some bleeding heart or minority group to side with they are happy to take the perceived moral highground.

As with any group or organisation, people should take the time to see what it is about before joining. They should certainly not expect the community to change just for their benefit. That said negativity for negativities sake is at best dull and at worst destructive. As said in the post above, if new members are put off by being flammed for no other reason than being new the forum will stagnate and die. However if the elder statesmen are effectively gagged by too many rules the forum will become dull and uninteresting.

For me the mods here do a good job, they do their best to let discussions run there course without stepping in unless needed to do so, they also "have a word with" as opposed to dishing out official warnings every five minutes.

So essentially, the old Dakka was one giant Ego Bukkake of WAAC tosspots who refused to accept the game could be played in any other way?

Glad I missed it.

Ahhh, the old days...


I'm always a bit intrigued by these kind of sentiments when it comes to an internet forum. People often say 'Dakka' is like this now or 'Dakka' feels like that now, but a forum is only ever a collection of posts, so when you say you miss the old days really what you're saying is that you miss users who don't post on Dakka anymore.

And I agree with that sentiment whole-heartedly. I remember many former Dakka regulars very fondly and miss some of the great conversations they contributed to the forum. But what is important to remember, IMHO, is that not everyone stopped posting on Dakka because they found another forum they prefer instead...rather just like real life, many users simply stop playing the hobby or don't participate as heavily anymore and naturally their interest in an internet forum based on it dwindles.


But while some great souls are gone likely to never return, we always need to remember that a forum is only made up of the posts on it. So if you don't think the tactics forum has any good tactics in it, the answer isn't to avoid going in there, but rather to start contributing good advice yourself! The 'great' posters you remembered and love were great because they took the time to contribute. The more you take the time to do so, the more other people will engage and respect your arguments and before long I'm sure people will be remembering how nice it was when you used to post back in the 2010s.


It is also easy to forget that Dakka's rule #1 has always been to 'be polite' at all times. Has this rule always been enforced as written on the conduct page? Of course not, its an ideal to strive for. Yes Dakka has always had (IMHO) one of the most lenient moderation policies amongst major forums, and that ideal still continues to this day despite the fact that we desperately have to have more moderation these days due to the fact that there are more people posting on Dakka than ever before.

It is easy to remember the good times of Dakka, but is also easy to forget that there was a period where the site almost felt like a ghost town, with very few active members even posting. That isn't a feeling you get anymore when you visit Dakka.

But growth is always a double-edged sword. Yes, the site has more posts, more users and a general feel of more activity, but that also means there are increased challenges of moderation, increased breaches of 'netiquette' and increased numbers of posts from newer players asking questions about the hobby that you may think are stupid.

Sure we don't want to get to a crazy point where every post is like the old GW 'eye of terror' forums, but we also want to remain one of the internet's premiere places to come and discuss the hobby.


So again, Dakka is only made up of posts...if you think the content is getting skewed in a certain direction then POST and be someone contributing to the things you like and others always follow.


Finally, when it comes to giant flame wars, insulting people, etc, being something 'good', I just have to strongly disagree. There is absolutely no benefit you gain from being rude to someone besides the likelihood of making them angry right back at you. You can completely dismantle someone's arguments and sway whole swathes of other user's to whatever cause you are fighting for all the while being completely and utterly polite.

This is the big fallacy behind someone who thinks 'telling it like it is' equals 'being rude'...the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other.


And old Dakka poster JTS (who played in the classic net-hyped battle against Mauleed) would frequently destroy people's tactical arguments on Tau with pure mathematics and knowledgeable insight, all without ever insulting anyone.

Or someone like 'Flavius Infernus' who uses a clear set of logical guidelines to dismantle other's arguments in YMTC, but all the while being very friendly and polite.


Yes, someone like Mauleed did add some spice, but he also caused a lot of extra moderation work to be done, and he knew it. Whenever we did warn or suspend him about his behavior he was always very apologetic and willing to take the punishment as he knew that his behavior had caused us all extra work to take care of.


But I've kind of gotten off track and lost with exactly where I was going...I guess ultimately what I have to say is that if you feel like Dakka has changed into a friendlier place than it used to be, well then hallelujah! Because that's exactly what we've been trying to accomplish.

Reecius wrote:Maybe I am just a crusty old grognard here and remember the old days as being better even if they weren't, but I can't shake the feeling that Dakka is turning into a Warseer or B&C.

When I came here way back when, this place was like the wild west. You ran your mouth and you got called out. You said something stupid and you got flamed like crazy for it. I am pretty sure there were people who cried themselves to sleep after getting a royal reaming by some of the regulars.

Now I have new people telling me to be nice and not hurt anyone's feelings. People are coming on the boards and saying that math hammer is dumb and pointless, that units should be used because they are fluffy? Take that to the other boards where they like the same things. This is Dakka for crying out loud!

What is going on here? Dakka was where you came to learn how to win the game, not get a pat on the back and cuddle with a fluff bunny!

Where are the old guys anyway, like Mauleed, Tigerbaby, and all the others? I have not seen a 3 page flame war with death threats and people calling each other out for the next tournament in forever. Everyone is playing with kid gloves on now. It feels like Dakka is losing what made it unique. Dakka is lsoing the swagger that made me love the place

This was a place where you had to support your claims and if you made a ridiculous statement you got slammed. It was not polite and it was not nice but it made me a better player without question, and it made me realize that you can't go running your mouth about the game when you are unable to walk what you talk.

Does anyone else feel this way or am I just missing the good old days?

I swear it seems like Dakka is changing from a whiskey drinking, bare knuckles saloon into a wine bar in the suburbs.

oh it's still like that if you're one of the moderators or their friends.

Everyone else? Bow to the cool kids table.

insaniak wrote:

Reecius wrote:I don't advocate people being jerks for no reason, but when we had retribution in place for senseless posts it really did force people to double check their facts before posting.

It may have forced some to double check their facts.
How many did it 'encourage' to just not post at all?

And so what if it was a bit intimidating for new people?

If new people are discouraged from joining, the community stagnates and eventually dwindles away.


Sure, the overall 'vibe' of Dakka has changed. Everything does. From my experience, a forum's tone and feel are largely influenced by the prominent posters. The most visible parts of the community. People largely take their cues on appropriate behaviour from these posters, and it all trickles on down.

So as more of the 'old guard' moved on and were replaced, the 'newer guard' started setting the tone. And the current trend is more geared towards remembering that this is, after all, just a game of toy soldiers. And that, speaking as someone who was here during the 'good old days' can only be a good thing.

and how much of Dakka is now just the "cool kids" and their moderator patrons patting themselves on the back in between toy throwing fits?

More than you care to admit.

I fail to see why being rude, aggressive, needlessly inflammatory and generally an all-round idiot somehow equates to a paragon of intellectual debate and stimulation. Surely we are all grown up enough to have reasoned, informed debate and opinion without the need to snipe at one another. How does that benefit anyone?

MeanGreenStompa wrote:My own personal loathing is the emperor's new clothes of RAW as it's currently being touted, which seems to consist of taking anything that's written in the codex/rulebook and combining it to make clearly illogical or ludicrous results. Then it's followed by a folding of the arms and a smug 'I'm right, it's there in black and white' stance.

I find it interesting that you see this as something new. That sort of approach has been a part of YMDC for at least as long as I've been here.

From what I've seen, rules discussions these days are actually more likely to wander off into how the game is actually played rather than sticking doggedly to RAW. Yes, we still have the silly-RAW threads. And some posters stick to RAW more closely that others. But it's no longer the sole focus.

Whilst I agree with Yakface to some extent (The condescending egos of yester year such as Bugswarm, Mauleed > the likes of Stelek) I think it's a slightly skewed argument, not taking into account the noticeable effect that current moderation "policy" has on the current feel of the board.

Sure a larger population needs a larger pool of moderators, but consistency would be nice. Mods need to be moderated in my opinion, some of them are just not good. Why, just the other week I was cruelly and unjustly reprimanded for the online equivalent of pointing at a crazy person, and by a moderator with quite an unbalanced posting history to boot http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/278314.page

The only way this fits with the theory a board being people and not rules is if the people are the moderators, which brings us back to the rules.

@ insaniak

It's the stance of 'But I have found in in black and white so anyone who disagrees is a lowly cheater', when the person citing has actually just taken the written word and applied their own 'interpretation' of it by emphasising a particular word or inflection.

It's the stance that anyone who does not see things in precisely that way is not conforming to the rules.

It is the lack of good grace in debating, the insistence on spamming until you 'win'.

I've not been here that long, only a couple of years, but it does seem to have slid down that road in the second year.

Howlingmoon wrote:
and how much of Dakka is now just the "cool kids" and their moderator patrons patting themselves on the back in between toy throwing fits?

More than you care to admit.

And this is the part that bothers me the most, there does seem to be a group of people that can pretty much get away with anything that would get the stern talking-to from a mod. It seems to be a fairly small group, but they are very, very vocal. Usually they're only arguing to be right, and will spit in the face of anyone who dares (my word!) to disagree with them or their opinion.

That being said, I usually come to this board to have fun and enjoy myself...in the various ways I feel like extracting it. I have long since given up using this as a resource of strategy or tactics (I'm pretty convinced that most people on the internet don't actually know how to play the game anyway), though I do try and give advice or my opinion when I see fit to do so.

I rarely stray out of the news and rumor group or the discussion group, mostly to see what new mini's other 3rd party companies are designing.

YMDC is a damn silly place, kinda like Camelot.

Hmm... been here a year and a bit. Think I'm usually quite polite (the odd dry comment aside) and therefore definitely not part of the cool rebel brigade who want to get into arguments with people.

I guess if you enjoy arguments, then more power to you, but for me life's too short to spend debating whether a flame cannon is a flaming attack (which it blatantly is btw) with somebody I will never meet and therefore never play a game with.

I'm a new user to Dakka but I have been watching the site for many years before joining.

If I say somehting that deserves to be ridiculed then that's life,
I'd get over it and then wait untill the peeps who flamed me get flamed and then join in (",)

But that's part of the fun of it, right?
Getting your own back (",)
Or is that just me?

I don't like the idea of kids gloves but I've seen some debates become arguments since I joined,
although not to the extent of the OPs description..

I like DakkaDakka and like all things in life, it's going to evolve, even if some peeps don't want it too..

You got doesn't appear as much....

Ya know, that's what had kept me on this site for the early years. Following the 'Dakka Tough Guys' go at the noobs and each other. There were some classic threads on the old Dakka.

Speaking of provocative characters, not seen much of a certain high post count regular since he had a colourful exchange with somebody last week. Hope he doesn't disappear, I enjoy his dry observations.

Howlingmoon wrote:

and how much of Dakka is now just the "cool kids" and their moderator patrons patting themselves on the back in between toy throwing fits?

More than you care to admit.

You do know that the moderators we have aren't some group of friends I've recruited to help create some uber-clique...they are a collection of different people from all over the world, most of whom have never even met?

You can rest assured that there is no one person who is 'friends' with every moderator (or even most of them), however I can't stop you from believing there is some gigantic conspiracy in place at Dakka to ruin the site.

All I can do is to remind you, and everyone that the majority of moderation is done privately via PMs or emails as in my experience public admonishment has little positive benefit and only tends to make whomever is being reprimanded feel even further persecuted.

So if you assume that any other user hasn't been suspended or warned for their behavior then you're making an assumption, and one that may or may not be true.

But ultimately, whether or not any other user has been reprimanded is immaterial as the only person who any individual user can control is themselves, and if each person takes a step back and remembers that we're supposed to be having discussions involving a TOY SOLDIER HOBBY, then there really isn't ever any need to be anything but polite and friendly, even if you vehemently disagree with someone else's opinion.

And if anyone really thinks they're being targeted by the moderators, may I suggest you try the diabolical tactic of always posting in a polite and friendly manner? If you do so, I think you'll find the moderators will amazingly stop harassing you!


And Howlingmoon, this response was not aimed at you particularly, but rather towards the sentiment you expressed.

Jazz is for Losers wrote:Whilst I agree with Yakface to some extent (The condescending egos of yester year such as Bugswarm, Mauleed > the likes of Stelek) I think it's a slightly skewed argument, not taking into account the noticeable effect that current moderation "policy" has on the current feel of the board.

Sure a larger population needs a larger pool of moderators, but consistency would be nice. Mods need to be moderated in my opinion, some of them are just not good. Why, just the other week I was cruelly and unjustly reprimanded for the online equivalent of pointing at a crazy person, and by a moderator with quite an unbalanced posting history to boot http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/278314.page

The only way this fits with the theory a board being people and not rules is if the people are the moderators, which brings us back to the rules.

I dearly hope you're being sarcastic...please say you are.

Because otherwise we have a case of one guy claiming the mods favor certain posters (which I'd guess he'd include you in) and the other hand we have a poster who is supposedly in the 'in-crowd' feeling picked on by the moderators.

Le sigh!

It's enough to make someone want to jump off a bridge sometimes.

Could it also be a byproduct of the game's focus shifting? From the outside looking in now, I mostly see apocalypse games and canceled GT circuits. While there's a little rage still about something grossly over/under-powered in a new codex, it's nothing like the days where many people behaved like they actually have a stake in the balance of the game. Maybe they just don't anymore.

I think yakface has the right of it. Any forum inevitably takes on the characteristics of it's major posters and some of the more frequent posters here these days are people like Waagh_Gonads or malfred, who both have opinions but don't express them as forcefully as people like mauleed and Stelek used to.

I miss the old days a little bit in that I do miss seeing things from bugswarm and especially JTS, his mathhammering of Tau helped me out a lot in prior editions.

Nowadays, the tone is generally friendlier, apart from what seems like a vicious split between casual gamers and tournament gamers over which type is more 'fun,' which is ridiculous because the games are as fun as you and your opponent want them to be, n matter the game style.

I also don't quite get Howlingmoon's crusade against moderator hypocrisy (I just don't see it, outside of OT, where the mod is responsible for about 40% of the flame wars), but that might because I'm very quick to hit the notify mod button, and it usually seems like a response is justified

Jazz is for Losers wrote:Whilst I agree with Yakface to some extent (The condescending egos of yester year such as Bugswarm, Mauleed > the likes of Stelek) I think it's a slightly skewed argument, not taking into account the noticeable effect that current moderation "policy" has on the current feel of the board.

Sure a larger population needs a larger pool of moderators, but consistency would be nice. Mods need to be moderated in my opinion, some of them are just not good. Why, just the other week I was cruelly and unjustly reprimanded for the online equivalent of pointing at a crazy person, and by a moderator with quite an unbalanced posting history to boot http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/278314.page

The only way this fits with the theory a board being people and not rules is if the people are the moderators, which brings us back to the rules.

Thats situation was dealt with. You are not made aware of who is suspended and who is not-frankly thats none of your business.

And you will note the statement to "move on in the thread" was generic.

yakface wrote:Le sigh!

It's enough to make someone want to jump off a bridge sometimes.

I have to say, having taught high school last semester, some of the moderation issues on Dakka remind me a LOT of dealing with kids in school (and the feeling of near-suicidal tendencies ). We're mostly adults here... we should be able to control ourselves on an internet forum without having our hand slapped! Come on, guys!

Also, even though I just rejoined Dakka a year or so ago, I was a frequent reader (and ocassional poster, under a different username) about 10 years ago I believe, before taking a long break from the hobby. People were sometimes rude then... and they're sometimes rude now. People complained about moderation then... and they complain about it now. It's just different faces, and more people, which brings different challenges.

I also think the "snarkiness" for lack of a better word comes in waves... and it's been pretty heavy lately in Discussions and News & Rumors imho. But again, that's nothing new... just a new wave of it. And the only way to influence it to how you like is to post more and let your voice be heard!

Edit: Also, as far as the lack of gonads or whatever about the site lately (which I don't necessarily agree with!)- having someone like Frazzled around to put people in their place can't hurt! If you feel something is so out there that allowable words on the forum can't adequately handle it... that's what that little exclamation point in the corner of the post is for . Otherwise, refute their argument and show them up with logic... not childish insults!

yakface wrote:

Howlingmoon wrote:

and how much of Dakka is now just the "cool kids" and their moderator patrons patting themselves on the back in between toy throwing fits?

More than you care to admit.

You do know that the moderators we have aren't some group of friends I've recruited to help create some uber-clique...they are a collection of different people from all over the world, most of whom have never even met?

You can rest assured that there is no one person who is 'friends' with every moderator (or even most of them), however I can't stop you from believing there is some gigantic conspiracy in place at Dakka to ruin the site.

I'm pretty sure we both know what I think of that statement. Or you might not, considering you're never around and have left the special ed table to run the lunch room.

Also, feel free to quote me where I've ever said that the "cool kids" intend to "ruin" Dakka. Far from it, I've contended that their intention is to have their own private sandbox. "Ruining" Dakka for anyone else isn't even on the to do list because Dakka isn't -for- anyone else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaplaingrabthar wrote:I think yakface has the right of it. Any forum inevitably takes on the characteristics of it's major posters and some of the more frequent posters here these days are people like Waagh_Gonads or malfred, who both have opinions but don't express them as forcefully as people like mauleed and Stelek used to.

I miss the old days a little bit in that I do miss seeing things from bugswarm and especially JTS, his mathhammering of Tau helped me out a lot in prior editions.

Nowadays, the tone is generally friendlier, apart from what seems like a vicious split between casual gamers and tournament gamers over which type is more 'fun,' which is ridiculous because the games are as fun as you and your opponent want them to be, n matter the game style.

I also don't quite get Howlingmoon's crusade against moderator hypocrisy (I just don't see it, outside of OT, where the mod is responsible for about 40% of the flame wars), but that might because I'm very quick to hit the notify mod button, and it usually seems like a response is justified

Should it be considered surprising that that Mod is also involved in 40% or more of the rest of the flame wars on this site as well?

skyth wrote:

thekerrick wrote: I reserch my army a lot, and I honestly do not see all this garbage that gets posted. Occasionally there is the bad thread, but I can usually avoid them by noticing the bad spelling

Anyone else amused by the irony?

Ack you got me. I think you know what I mean though.

IS DIS A GUD LIST?!?! AHHA MEH SPACE MARINS ARE TEDH BEST HAHAHA

Howlingmoon wrote:

yakface wrote:

Howlingmoon wrote:

and how much of Dakka is now just the "cool kids" and their moderator patrons patting themselves on the back in between toy throwing fits?

More than you care to admit.

You do know that the moderators we have aren't some group of friends I've recruited to help create some uber-clique...they are a collection of different people from all over the world, most of whom have never even met?

You can rest assured that there is no one person who is 'friends' with every moderator (or even most of them), however I can't stop you from believing there is some gigantic conspiracy in place at Dakka to ruin the site.

I'm pretty sure we both know what I think of that statement. Or you might not, considering you're never around and have left the special ed table to run the lunch room.

Also, feel free to quote me where I've ever said that the "cool kids" intend to "ruin" Dakka. Far from it, I've contended that their intention is to have their own private sandbox. "Ruining" Dakka for anyone else isn't even on the to do list because Dakka isn't -for- anyone else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaplaingrabthar wrote:I think yakface has the right of it. Any forum inevitably takes on the characteristics of it's major posters and some of the more frequent posters here these days are people like Waagh_Gonads or malfred, who both have opinions but don't express them as forcefully as people like mauleed and Stelek used to.

I miss the old days a little bit in that I do miss seeing things from bugswarm and especially JTS, his mathhammering of Tau helped me out a lot in prior editions.

Nowadays, the tone is generally friendlier, apart from what seems like a vicious split between casual gamers and tournament gamers over which type is more 'fun,' which is ridiculous because the games are as fun as you and your opponent want them to be, n matter the game style.

I also don't quite get Howlingmoon's crusade against moderator hypocrisy (I just don't see it, outside of OT, where the mod is responsible for about 40% of the flame wars), but that might because I'm very quick to hit the notify mod button, and it usually seems like a response is justified

Should it be considered surprising that that Mod is also involved in 40% or more of the rest of the flame wars on this site as well?

Speaking as an outsider to this debate and as someone who is relatively new to the site with neither allegiances nor cliques, I have to say that you come across as having a massive chip on your shoulder Howlingmoon. Whether this is from a real or perceived slight, I don't know, but that's what it seems like to me.

I started lurking in about November 2008, so I'm relatively recent on this board, compared to a lot of the old farts back in 2005 or the like. And its interesting, because even in the short space of time that I've been here, Dakka has changed noticeably. Flaming? Forum personalities? Personal rivalries? These things all still exist.

For example, you have the famous antagonism between HBMC and JohnHwangDD. The bitterness between Kanluwen and Lunahound, between Lunahound and MeanGreenStompa, between MeanGreenStompa and Gwar!, between Gwar! and half the forum.... Head over to the off topic forum, and you have the intellectual trio of dogma, sebster, and JEB_Stuart to contend with, with occasional spice from ShumaGorath. Fancy a debate in the general discussion areas? You'll probably run into Manchu, Flashman, kid_kyoto, Agamemnon2, or Mad Doc Grotsnik. If you're lucky, and its an interesting topic, Janthkin, Redbeard, Jin or mikhaila might jump into the fray. Overseeing all this, you have the moderators and admins, some disliked to certain degrees, others thought of with a certain amount of affection.

This whole forum is one big community of drama, discussion and ego. It's almost like a continuous running episode of East Enders! Sure, there might not seem to be much in the way of overt swearing and 'calling out', but look a little closer. What happens when a new user makes a post filled with illiteracy, ill advised comments, and bad spelling? They usually get jumped on with both feet in a glorious scrum!

You have the running jokes reiterated time after time for users who missed them the first time round. The queries as to where one can buy a space corridor set, the tactical genius of a certain individual, and the repeated mockery of CS Goto....the comedy, if at times a tad stale, is excellent! Many's the time I've broken with laughter at a daft image posted, or a particularly witty remark!

I'm a recent addition to the mod team, and I only acquired this promotion after I'd badgered Yakface with so many suggestions for the SwapShop, he basically got tired of me, gave me the mod hat and said, 'You care so much, you do something about it!'. I've found that most mods, like me, are just people who enjoy the community aspect of the place, and are willing to put in that little bit more of their own time(usually when they're being paid to work, it seems to be), into helping make Dakka a place where relatively new users like myself can settle in comfortably, have some pleasant discussions, tune in to the forum drama and community, and just generally have fun! Regardless of what Dakka may have been beforehand(I wasn't there to see it), I think that what it is today is a most pleasant place to spend the time of day when you have nothing better to do. It is in short, an overall fun, intelligent, varied and above all interesting board, that I'm happy to have found!

Frazzled wrote:

Jazz is for Losers wrote:Whilst I agree with Yakface to some extent (The condescending egos of yester year such as Bugswarm, Mauleed > the likes of Stelek) I think it's a slightly skewed argument, not taking into account the noticeable effect that current moderation "policy" has on the current feel of the board.

Sure a larger population needs a larger pool of moderators, but consistency would be nice. Mods need to be moderated in my opinion, some of them are just not good. Why, just the other week I was cruelly and unjustly reprimanded for the online equivalent of pointing at a crazy person, and by a moderator with quite an unbalanced posting history to boot http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/278314.page

The only way this fits with the theory a board being people and not rules is if the people are the moderators, which brings us back to the rules.

Thats situation was dealt with. You are not made aware of who is suspended and who is not-frankly thats none of your business.

And you will note the statement to "move on in the thread" was generic.

Quite frankly I agree. I'm not sure I requested any information regarding whom and whom is not suspended

yakface wrote:

Jazz is for Losers wrote:Whilst I agree with Yakface to some extent (The condescending egos of yester year such as Bugswarm, Mauleed > the likes of Stelek) I think it's a slightly skewed argument, not taking into account the noticeable effect that current moderation "policy" has on the current feel of the board.

Sure a larger population needs a larger pool of moderators, but consistency would be nice. Mods need to be moderated in my opinion, some of them are just not good. Why, just the other week I was cruelly and unjustly reprimanded for the online equivalent of pointing at a crazy person, and by a moderator with quite an unbalanced posting history to boot http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/278314.page

The only way this fits with the theory a board being people and not rules is if the people are the moderators, which brings us back to the rules.

I dearly hope you're being sarcastic...please say you are.

Because otherwise we have a case of one guy claiming the mods favor certain posters (which I'd guess he'd include you in) and the other hand we have a poster who is supposedly in the 'in-crowd' feeling picked on by the moderators.

Le sigh!

It's enough to make someone want to jump off a bridge sometimes.

Oh no I'm serious. Well, apart from the "cruely and unjustly" part. I know this isn't a thread about effective moderators but since my previous post needs qualified, the example I gave was just one of poor modding thart stuck in my memory, understandably I think given that I was involved. I could equally point to this thread or this one as examples of general over-bearing oafishness that I wouldn't notice from anyone in the general populace but would be surprised to see from a moderator. (discalimer - overbearing oafishness refers to manner of posting and not the author of said posts. Obtuse would perhaps be a kinder description). All subjective of course.

edit/ possibly just a natural clash of personalities and therefore irreelvant and biased views, but I'd still say there is at times a lack of temperance.

Jazz is for Losers wrote:
Oh no I'm serious. Well, apart from the "cruely and unjustly" part. I know this isn't a thread about effective moderators but since my previous post needs qualified, the example I gave was just one of poor modding thart stuck in my memory, understandably I think given that I was involved. I could equally point to this thread or this one as examples of general over-bearing oafishness that I wouldn't notice from anyone in the general populace but would be surprised to see from a moderator. (discalimer - overbearing oafishness refers to manner of posting and not the author of said posts. Obtuse would perhaps be a kinder description). All subjective of course.

edit/ possibly just a natural clash of personalities and therefore irreelvant and biased views, but I'd still say there is at times a lack of temperance.

The 1st of your links has someone calling someone else a troll, so that's fair game for the mod.

In the 2nd, I can't see a mod wielding the stick? Just mods talking in the discussion?

Reecius wrote:Maybe I am just a crusty old grognard here and remember the old days as being better even if they weren't, but I can't shake the feeling that Dakka is turning into a Warseer or B&C.

When I came here way back when, this place was like the wild west. You ran your mouth and you got called out. You said something stupid and you got flamed like crazy for it. I am pretty sure there were people who cried themselves to sleep after getting a royal reaming by some of the regulars.

Now I have new people telling me to be nice and not hurt anyone's feelings. People are coming on the boards and saying that math hammer is dumb and pointless, that units should be used because they are fluffy? Take that to the other boards where they like the same things. This is Dakka for crying out loud!

What is going on here? Dakka was where you came to learn how to win the game, not get a pat on the back and cuddle with a fluff bunny!

Where are the old guys anyway, like Mauleed, Tigerbaby, and all the others? I have not seen a 3 page flame war with death threats and people calling each other out for the next tournament in forever. Everyone is playing with kid gloves on now. It feels like Dakka is losing what made it unique. Dakka is lsoing the swagger that made me love the place

This was a place where you had to support your claims and if you made a ridiculous statement you got slammed. It was not polite and it was not nice but it made me a better player without question, and it made me realize that you can't go running your mouth about the game when you are unable to walk what you talk.

Does anyone else feel this way or am I just missing the good old days?

I swear it seems like Dakka is changing from a whiskey drinking, bare knuckles saloon into a wine bar in the suburbs.

OMG this is the most idiotic post I have ever seen on DAKKA!!! What rock did you crawl out from under? I totally disagree with your premise since your head must be up your rear!!

GET OFF MY FORUM!!!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Is that more like what your looking for, Reecius?

Because I'm not.

p.s. the above rant wasn't meant to be taken seriously at all, it was a device used to make a point.

GG

I have to say, I don't see anything wrong with any of the threads you've linked to, Jazz is for Losers (OT about your username- do you really think so, or is it a joke I'm not getting?)

And I just about burst out laughing every time I see that "Don't Mess With Old Dogs- I swear to Jesus, I'll kill every last one of you" image . You want personality, there it is!

Hi, my name is Vladigar. I'm a casual gamer who likes to use full units of Sisters Repentia for no ther reason than I think it's fun to throw 20 half-naked pissed-off women with chainsaws at you.

You may proceed to flame my tactical inadequacy. I won't take it personally.

Janthkin wrote:I've been on Dakka since ~2000. I hope I haven't had to resort to rude posts, in order to convey meaning.

Polite discourse doesn't have to be shallow; see the 11+ pages on Tyranids between Mahu & Shep.

I've been around since not long after I played Russ in the 2000(?) Baltimore GT. Lurked for a while before I started posting and I still remember the old cast of characters, including guys like Snord, Drew Riggio, etc. So here's my $0.02.

IMO, Dakka got really ugly for a while there just before Yak took over. Too many valuable posters from the early days had left or been run off as the place became more and more dour and insular. Honestly, I thought the site was well into its death spiral. Traffic had to have declined quite a bit.

Yak and company have IMO done a really nice job in reviving the site. There's far more hobby content than before, more traffic in general, and some of the Tyranid threads that Janthkin referenced above have been as good of a tactical discussion as we've had here in a long time. And that discussion has been nothing but polite and on topic from the get-go.

Having said that, I think the site is FAR from becoming Warseer. Spend even a little time and energy in discussions there and you'll see what I mean. Dakka is still a much older audience with more experienced players, values good grammar, has better and less biased modding...the list goes on. And I think it's well within our ability to give a newbie to the site the proper perspective in a nice way instead of berating them and shouting them down like we did in the good ol' days.

IMO, Dakka's in a pretty good spot. It's still a more grown-up alternative to the Warseers of the world, but it doesn't arbitrarily run off new people and new ideas just because they're new.

RiTides - It's a quote from a tv series I liked, I am indifferent towards jazz.

As to the examples I linked I'll explain but no more after that,this isn't a personal attack and is in danger of looking like one. Selected quotes -

"Excellent" (on the subject of excessive police force), not a good start, followed by "...the idiocy of that statement is staggering". Again if your an average Joe post, go for it (or maybe not - does this contravene rule 1?).

"You asked for opinions from Brits. There they are. Its your fault for asking a question you didn't know the answer to. Calling them trolls because they disagree with you is itself trolling.
Rule #1 is in effect here as well. Posters that attack other posters on this thread will be subject to disciplinary from this point forward."

Curt snappy sentences used in this context, stating the facts as seen by the author, backed up with the threat of "disciplinary" isn't, to my mind at least, very even-handed. It's gives the statement a rather condescending tone imho. May have well just written "Dude, you suck, here's why..." Not to mention the fact that the other guy (not the fellow that was warned using the above quote) in the discussion seemd to be an overly-aggressive *screwdriver* and deserved to be told as much (from where I was looking at least).

We should just add, like, a thunder dome thread. Where all the peoples who have beef with each other can just get it out in the open and be done with it. Heck, I'll even moderate it.

Maybe with a place to safely vent, everyone can post a little more honestly and intelligently without letting their egos get in the way of a more constructive debate.

Oh god i can't be bothered to read such a blatantly trolling thread, so I'll post one of my own..

@ the OP

Why did it change? Maybe the WAAC, flame-warring, whiny minority of 'competitive' gamers who shout someone down under the arrogant auspices of 'telling it like it is' have all just, you know, GROWN UP and realised that civilised adults can have a serious conversation without juvenile insults.....?


EDIT for irony. And we're immune to banning on this thread, right?

Trolling!? Man, you just brought up logic and civility in the SAME SENTENCE...that's like a global internet insta-ban.

I do appreciate the ironing though, my pants needed pressing.

ArbitorIan wrote:Oh god i can't be bothered to read such a blatantly trolling post.

@ the OP

Why did it change? Maybe the WAAC, flame-warring, whiny minority of 'competitive' gamers who shout someone down under the arrogant auspices of 'telling it like it is' have all just, you know, GROWN UP and realised that civilised adults can have a serious conversation without juvenile insults.....?

Yeah, this post sure seemed civil and in-no-way juvenile...

ArbitorIan wrote:Oh god i can't be bothered to read such a blatantly trolling thread, so I'll post one of my own..

@ the OP

Why did it change? Maybe the WAAC, flame-warring, whiny minority of 'competitive' gamers who shout someone down under the arrogant auspices of 'telling it like it is' have all just, you know, GROWN UP and realised that civilised adults can have a serious conversation without juvenile insults.....?


EDIT for irony. And we're immune to banning on this thread, right?

Wait, you can have a serious conversation without juvenile insults?

BLASPHEMER!

Here we go, a forum for fightin' (buildin' on the thunderdome here) where there really aren't any rules regarding conduct for the members regarding what they say...uh, type. So still no creepy noodie pics or harmful code or prions or anything. Just get in there and wail on each other.

No, there's one rule. You can't edit your posts. If you want to have a beef-off, your beef will be on display for all to see. A constant reminder to all, and mostly to yourselves, of the terrible limits that we plastic soldier generals are pushed to in this unforgiving wasteland of the interboobs, er...tubes.

I am 100% serial about this guys, I think this could work.

Thanks Ketara, I almost was worried I'd have to post the O'Rly Gnome.

Dakka's like any other community - old folks leave, new blood joins in, times change. I think it's easy as someone who's been here a long time to look back on the "good old days".

I look at it this way - I first started watching Saturday Night Live in the days of Mike Myers and Dana Carvey. And I thought they were funny as hell. After a few seasons, they brought in new talent - folks like Adam Sandler, David Spade, Chris Farley. I didn't think they were nearly as good. Years pass and I keep watching SNL. Now, Sandler's being replaced by Will Farrell and Chris Kattan. I thought those guys were crap and longed for the days of yesteryear with Myers and Carvey and Sandler. Time continues to pass - I look back and see how funny Farrell's skits were now and how today's skits just don't seem to stack up.

Memory is a funny thing. We remember the best and forget most of the crap that filled in the spaces. So, it's pretty natural to remember the period of Dakka when you first joined and came to enjoy the community enough to stay. For some folks, watching personalities like Drew Riggio, Mauleed, or Stelek is part of what we enjoyed. Others are happy to see them gone and think about more positive folks like Migsula and Shep are what makes the community for them.

Has Dakka changed? Yeah. Has it changed so much that it's lost what made it Dakka? No. But many of the personalities that compose it aren't what you may want. There will be other Drew Riggios and Steleks - hell, one of them may be lurking reading this thread right now. But they just haven't revealed themselves yet. I don't think the competitive crowd is gone - and I don't think Dakka's gone soft. I just think there may be a lull in the fighting.

Oh, and for those folks dick-waving about who's been here the longest, if you look at Yakface's join date, you'll see it's labeled as 2005, just as many other folks are - IIRC, after one of Dakka's reboots (after getting sold or under new management or recovery from a crash, I can't remember...) everyone had to re-up. So, don't take the join date as when someone -really- joined Dakka.

Howlingmoon wrote:
I'm pretty sure we both know what I think of that statement. Or you might not, considering you're never around and have left the special ed table to run the lunch room.

Also, feel free to quote me where I've ever said that the "cool kids" intend to "ruin" Dakka. Far from it, I've contended that their intention is to have their own private sandbox. "Ruining" Dakka for anyone else isn't even on the to do list because Dakka isn't -for- anyone else.

I know you have this beef (where it came from though is anyone's guess). But seriously dude, you are starting to sound like a broken record and it's gotten really old.

I even agree with you a little, tiny bit, but your constant whining and railing against certain posters who are apparently in cahoots with mods is wearing thin.

Just for the record, the only Mod I've had any interaction with outside Dakka is Lorek and every single one of my warnings has come from... Lorek!

Hmmmm....

filbert wrote:

Howlingmoon wrote: 'Some vitriolic, frothmouthed, quasi-accusatory plea for attention couched in protest'

Speaking as an outsider to this debate and as someone who is relatively new to the site with neither allegiances nor cliques, I have to say that you come across as having a massive chip on your shoulder Howlingmoon. Whether this is from a real or perceived slight, I don't know, but that's what it seems like to me.

He does seem to have a massive anger at the site and prettymuch everyone and anyone on it. It's like he's been here for ages and fallen out with many, yet his joining date is so recent...

could it be that Howlingmoon has been here before... perhaps using a different username...?

Reecius wrote:Let me put it this way.

My introduction to Dakka went like this:

I came on thinking I was hot gak and new the game better than anyone.

I made some bold statements and the regulars called me out. When I was unable to back up what I said, everyone laughed at me and told me to get my gak straight before I opened my mouth again.

What happened? I got my feelings hurt and felt like an idiot and thought everyone was a jerk at Dakka. Then, I thought about it and realized they were right and I swas the one being an idiot.

So, I came back, learned the rules and my game better and as a result became much, much better at the game. It taught me to become more analytical about the game and as a result, a better player.

That is good! When everyone is just nice to each other and reinforce everyone's crappy tactics and lists just to avoid being rude, you are actually doing them a DISSERVICE!

By serving me a slice of humble pie and forcing me to look at the reality of the game, I became a better player because of it.

Ha! My story on this site is similiar (though still in progress.) but what really comes to mind is how I started out on another site. Came on and said a few dumb things, not all involving rules for the record, and got it shoved right back in my face. As you did, I felt horrible and sorta stayed off the site for a few days, before I finally grew up and realized how stupid what I said was. And I did the same thing on another site. I more or less called a VERY veteran member a moron for some rule he had interpreted (correctly, but I thought he was wrong) and said what "the truth was" and promptly got grenaded by about 20 members...... Five days later, finally having made up, I posted a few moronic threads about how killer a tactic I invented was. Next morning eleven people had shown me what an absolutely noobish, stupid, pathetic and moronic tactic that was. I was mad then, but now, I realize it really did help

When I joined, the site wasn't as technically advanced and stable as it is now. I really enjoy that it seems to be branching out into other systems moreso.

I used to post on OT a lot, but I have grown tired of it. It's good for a look at sometimes, and definitely educational at others, but I rarely feel like commenting anymore.
The painting and modelling and background fora are really a lot better now. Especially enjoy when people post really interesting stuff in background- "Death of the Emperor" and the Black Templars thread stand out in my mind.
At the same time, the 40K tactics section isn't what it was. I see a lot of really poor advice being given out, especially it seems in the Ork threads. A lot of the time, people don't even know the relevant rules, and are obviously just posting off the top of their heads. I don't understand that sort of thing. Still, there are excellent and interesting threads in there too.
WFB is quiet, but it was when I joined. There are some great threads in the tactics section though.
As for general tone, I dunno. There's an equal amount of animosity now to when I joined (which wasn't in the old days). It doesn't bother me. Sometimes, I think certain mods can be a bit abrubt, but any of them I've contacted via PM have been reasonable. The animosity that is there tends to be expressed in fairly civil language, though.

My memory must be terrible to be honest, I remember Russ running the site, and then folks like Mauleed, H.B.M.C, and various others stick in there.

The whole Steelek period later on, including that big drawn out exchange about challenging some player to a battle, or was it the other way round and someone challenged him. It was amusing though.

But sadly I can't remember much of what went on during the year I lurked and pretty much since I originally joined in early 04 as Captain_Reaper. (I think that was the name I had anyways.. it was something Scythes related as I had a huge Scythes army at the time.)

I certainly don't remember it being as harsh as the OP seems to suggest, mainly as if it had been that bad. I probably wouldn't have stuck around much. Although to be fair my original username didn't post that often, think I had in the region of 50-100 posts.

In general I've always been more of a reader here, but its always seemed a pretty damned good site. I always came here first for rumours and still do and joined sites like Warseer after this one due to it being mentioned here etc.

On the tone issue, I can only really echo Yak. The RAW arguments have always been there (one classic one from 1999 involved whether meltabombs had to be physically represented on the models, as the 3rd ed rulebook exempted "grenades", but not bombs). There has always been both enthusiasm and some harshness or hostility. But it is the prominent posters who more determine how the board looks and feels. There is a truism about being the change you want to see in the world. And it holds true for message forums as well.

I've been a mod since 2000, or 01, IIRC? And joined the forum in May 1999 since I played with Russ and the original league here in NH. In that time I've met all of three of the other mods, I think? I'm not personally friends with any of them. We're all just guys who really enjoy and spend a lot of time on Dakka, generally posted constructively and with a level head, and who Russ and then Yak thought would be willing to put in the effort to help keep this a good forum.

If anyone has an issue with any moderator, they're always free to complain to Yak, or to us.

If anyone resents us for some unknown reason, or has other issues which keep them from being able to maintain a realistic sense of proportion and perspective when it comes to our toy soldier forum, we'll all learn to live with his disappointment. Or without it, should they prove sufficiently intransigent, antagonistic, and detrimental to the board in general.

Every unpleasant poster gets their fair (or more than fair) share of warnings and temporary suspensions before we pull the plug on them entirely. The number of occasions on which we've had to do the latter is vanishingly small.

Just curious, how many non-spambot type people have ever been perma-banned? Stelek is the only one I can think of, but I doubt he's the only one

@Yakface
Good old Yak, always the voice of reason!

You are right, I guess I do miss the old posters. There were some real characters back then and some of the things people said were just crazy, which made it a really lively place.

I suppose the best thing to do is to be proactive and contribute instead of just bitching about things, you are right about that.

This place was just rowdy when I came on board, which I like. I guess it just suits my personality.

Anyone who has met me in real life, of which I have met a lot of the tournament players on Dakka, knows I am a personable guy. I am not a douche bag to play against at all, nor am I a WAAC type, I let so much stuff slide in a game as my goal is to have fun. I only get technical with the rules in a late round tournament game.

Tournament players play to have fun, just like fluff oriented players do, it's just a different kind of fun. I like tense games against good players with good lists, those are the most engaging games for me. Not everyone feels that way which is fine, but some of us thrive on that high level of competition. I love planning out my list, trying to figure out the meta for a tournament, seeing friends at the events, etc. It is a great community.

So, I guess the best thing to do is to try and contribute better content myself instead of lamenting the loss of the old timers as most of them are just gone.

Dakka is still the best place on the web to talk toy soldiers, IMO, I just don't want to see it turn into a mewling pack of numb nuts posting drivel. Some of the codex reviews and tactics advice I see on here these days makes me cringe, and I think that is why I was lamenting the good old days.

I remember the old days, if there was anger you would know it, threads would get shot down…
These days i need my trusty scanner.

We've laughed, we've cried, we've sang old songs and news songs, we've grieved and we've pissed royally on our chips.

Tune in in less than 2 months for the next of these threads.

Void where prohibited, might is right, war is peace, freedom is expensive, ignorance is misspelt far too often.