Hey folks:

A Vendetta can outflank.

Is there rules justification anywhere saying that the unit inside can too? IE, terminators in a vendetta outflanking....vets, ogryns, anything?

This has been done to death, a quick search would reveal it.

Yes, the unit inside may outflank, as it is not *aqctually* the one performing the Outflank move - the Vendetta is.

It takes a brute force ignorance of the rules to rule otherwise.

Dashofpepper wrote:Hey folks:

A Vendetta can outflank.

Is there rules justification anywhere saying that the unit inside can too? IE, terminators in a vendetta outflanking....vets, ogryns, anything?

A Drop Pod Can Deep Strike.

Is there rules justification anywhere saying the unit inside can too? i.e. Tactical Marines in a Drop Pod Deep Striking...Sternguard,Grey Hunters, Blood Claws, anything?

As nos pointed out, it's been done to death.

Deep striking is a deployment method, outflank is a special rule. Different scenarios....

Dashofpepper wrote:Deep striking is a deployment method, outflank is a special rule. Different scenarios....

... No it isn't. Outflanking is a way of deploying from reserves, just like Deep Strike.

I brought this up a few times Dash. From the way I read it, no. There isn't anything saying that the Vendetta can confer it's ability onto passengers. However, the consensus here, is that yes it can.


When you bring this argument up....the guys here will compare it to the Drop Pod, and it's ability to DS with troops inside it. A valid point of view, but I think there is a lack of clarity on the issue.


Either way, you will get a good consensus that yes, the Vendetta confers its ability to Outflank onto any passengers it's legally allowed to carry.



Clay

Primarch wrote:Either way, you will get a good consensus that yes, the Vendetta confers its ability to Outflank onto any passengers it's legally allowed to carry.

Mainly because that is what the rules say, no matter how much you protest otherwise.

I have 2 problems with their argument.



1. The book tells you specifically how you can arrive from reserves. If the unit inside the Vendetta isn't outflanking, as you say, then how is it deploying onto the table again? There are 3 ways, Deep strike, move on from your table edge, or outflank. The Vets/Termies/whatever are doing one of the 3, by RAW if they aren't, then they aren't following the rules of the book. This means that saying the Vets aren't outflanking is downright wrong, as they must enter play in some form or fashion.


2. Deep striking Drop Pods have NOTHING to do with the Vendetta argument. Are there Drop Pods in the IG book? No. Why GWAR continiously wants to refer to another rule in another codex to prove his point, when most times he is the one arguing against such things is beyond me. If Gwar wants to start a thread about the legality of the DP deepstriking with passengers, then so be it, but again, this thread is about the Vendetta and it's passengers.


If you want to talk RAI, fine, I can do that too. The Drop Pod has ONE function in the game, it cannot deploy any other way, it can't move on from the regular deployment table edge, nor can it outflank. So if it cannot confer it's ability onto the unit inside, then it is COMPLETELY USELESS AS A DEDICATED TRANSPORT.

The Vendetta on the other hand. Can deploy by itself when it outflanks, or can carry troops that have that ability already. It can also move onto the table from it's rear deployment edge like any other transport, or *gasp* it can start on the table. So to argue that they are the same when talking about RAI is just silly. Is it the RAI that Vendettas can outflank with non-outflankers aboard? I have no idea, we'd need the author to speak on that. Is it at least cloudy? Yup.

Is it pretty obvious that the Drop Pod RAI is that you can indeed confer that ability onto Troops inside? You'd would find it hard to come up with a valid reason for arguing against this.


Either way Dash. These guys are not going to change their mind, I'd just let it go if I were you.



Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:Either way, you will get a good consensus that yes, the Vendetta confers its ability to Outflank onto any passengers it's legally allowed to carry.

Mainly because that is what the rules say, no matter how much you protest otherwise.

So you keep saying, yet....the rules don't actually say anything of the sort......




Clay

Primarch - all of your arguments have been rebutted before now, all of them. Repeatedly.

The Vendetta has permission to carry an embarked unit, and the vendetta has permsision to Outflank. The unit inside is NOT PERFORMING AN OUTFLANK.

Simple set of permissions that after 3 threads at least you still fail to grasp.

It is not only consensus, it is the rules....

Sorry, but if you allow one, you allow the other. End of Discussion.

Yea, deepstriking drop pods full of non DS units certainly points to outflanking vendettas with non outflanking passengers.

EDIT: clarity


Clay: What do you perceive as the difference between deepstrike and outflank? They are both ways of coming in from reserve.

The drop pod is a dedicated transport with it's own rules. Does anyone have an example of a unit purchased seperatly that conveys the ability to another unit? I don't think scouts can outflank with a Land Raider?

Valks cannot transport Ogryns.

If the pathfinders are in the devilfish, does it get scout movement?

eimaj wrote:The drop pod is a dedicated transport with it's own rules. Does anyone have an example of a unit purchased seperatly that conveys the ability to another unit? I don't think scouts can outflank with a Land Raider?

Why is being a Dedicated Transport so important to you.

They have ONE AND EXACTLY ONE DIFFERENCE to other vehicles, in that only the unit it was bought for may begin embarked.

sounds fair. But wait...do units confer their deployment abilities to a vehicle they are in?

Nightwatch wrote:sounds fair. But wait...do units confer their deployment abilities to a vehicle they are in?

No. And neither do Vehicles confer the ability to the units inside. However, when a Valk Outflanks or Deep Strikes, IT IS THE ONE DOING IT. The unit is just along for the ride.

Gwar! wrote:

eimaj wrote:The drop pod is a dedicated transport with it's own rules. Does anyone have an example of a unit purchased seperatly that conveys the ability to another unit? I don't think scouts can outflank with a Land Raider?

Why is being a Dedicated Transport so important to you.

They have ONE AND EXACTLY ONE DIFFERENCE to other vehicles, in that only the unit it was bought for may begin embarked.

Actually, technically there is another difference. If a unit in a Dedicated Transport has the ability to Outflank but the transport doesn't, then the unit passes the Outflank to the transport, as long as they are inside it when it arrives. The rules make no such allowance for non-Dedicated transports (p.94)

Dashofpepper wrote:Hey folks:

A Vendetta can outflank.

Is there rules justification anywhere saying that the unit inside can too? IE, terminators in a vendetta outflanking....vets, ogryns, anything?

first of all the FAQ on the GW website says that models such as orgryns or models wearing terminator armour cannot be transported by a valkyrie or vendetta.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Primarch - all of your arguments have been rebutted before now, all of them. Repeatedly.

The Vendetta has permission to carry an embarked unit, and the vendetta has permsision to Outflank. The unit inside is NOT PERFORMING AN OUTFLANK.

Simple set of permissions that after 3 threads at least you still fail to grasp.

It is not only consensus, it is the rules....

I heard you say all of that before. You fail to even read my posts, so I don't know why I bother, but here goes again. Please read the following.


Your contention is that the Vets inside the Vendetta are not outflanking. Only the vehicle is outflanking.


The rules say there are 3 ways to arrive from reserves. THREE.

They are;

1. Outflank
2. Deep strike
3. Move on from your own rear table edge


So, since you contend that the Vets are NOT Outflanking, then which one of the other 2 are they performing to get onto the table? Are they Deepstriking? Are they moving on from their own table edge?

My issue with the whole argument is that you guys are not quoting any rules to support your position. You just keep telling me I'm wrong because a Drop pod can do it, so a Vendetta should be able to. Or, the famous. "the vets aren't outflanking, only the Vendetta is."

Ive quoted you the rules a few times now that tell you what you are allowed to outflank with. I've also quoted you the rules for how you can deploy a model on the table that has been held in reserves. Please give me some rulebook quotes and or pages that tell me where it says either one of the two things you claim. If you can show me where it says the Vendetta confers its Outflank ability onto the unit inside, or if you can show me where it says that there is a super secret 4th way to enter play from reserves, then I will admit that I was wrong and move on.

The book goes so far as to explain to you that a Unit with the ability to Outflank, can confer said ability onto any dedicated transport they can use. Yet, completely missing from this section of the permissive rule set, is a rule telling us that a Vehicle(non-dedicated) can confer any of it's abilities onto a unit that rides in it.



Clay

Primarch wrote:
The rules say there are 3 ways to arrive from reserves. THREE.

They are;

1. Outflank
2. Deep strike
3. Move on from your own rear table edge

The rules LIST three different ways to arrive from reserves. In addition to those methods, you have the Necron monolith portal, the Dark Eldar web way portal, an obscure Eldar web way portal, Death Leaper's arrival mechanic, Sly Marbo's arrival mechanic, the Space Wolves outflank variant, ...

Where are all of those mechanisms in your supposedly exhaustive list?

Point taken. Which one of those do the Vets use again? I am unaware of any special deployment rules for Vet squads in the IG army. Maybe I missed something? Yes, of course Codex outranks rulebook for that stuff. But the Vets have no special deployment rules, so then would be bound by the rulebook, right?



Clay

Again, please explain why you think Tactical Squads cannot Deep Strike inside a Drop Pod.

Primarch wrote:Point taken. Which one of those do the Vets use again? I am unaware of any special deployment rules for Vet squads in the IG army. Maybe I missed something? Yes, of course Codex outranks rulebook for that stuff. But the Vets have no special deployment rules, so then would be bound by the rulebook, right?



Clay

Welp, for instance, they can hop in a valk and come in with it on a flank.

Gwar! wrote:Again, please explain why you think Tactical Squads cannot Deep Strike inside a Drop Pod.

Hmmm, explain something I never said? Again, you bring up a question about a unit that is totally unrelated to the question at hand. If you want to have a discussion about Drop Pods, then why don't you start a thread about it....



Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

apwill4765 wrote:

Primarch wrote:Point taken. Which one of those do the Vets use again? I am unaware of any special deployment rules for Vet squads in the IG army. Maybe I missed something? Yes, of course Codex outranks rulebook for that stuff. But the Vets have no special deployment rules, so then would be bound by the rulebook, right?



Clay

Welp, for instance, they can hop in a valk and come in with it on a flank.

Right. Because a Valk confers it's outflank ability on the unit inside the transport? What page are you reading that on?



Clay

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Again, please explain why you think Tactical Squads cannot Deep Strike inside a Drop Pod.

Hmmm, explain something I never said? Again, you bring up a question about a unit that is totally unrelated to the question at hand. If you want to have a discussion about Drop Pods, then why don't you start a thread about it....

Clay

No, actually that is exactly what you said. You said:
The rules say there are 3 ways to arrive from reserves. THREE.

They are;

1. Outflank
2. Deep strike
3. Move on from your own rear table edge
And more regarding the Vets/Outflaning, yadda yadda, check your own post for details.
Bottom line, if, as you claim, the Vets cannot ride into the game in an Outflanking vehicle because they do not also have Outflank, then neither can the Tactical squad ride into the game in a deep striking vehicle, because they don't have deep strike. So yeah, you did say that. Not directly, but you said it.

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Again, please explain why you think Tactical Squads cannot Deep Strike inside a Drop Pod.

Hmmm, explain something I never said? Again, you bring up a question about a unit that is totally unrelated to the question at hand. If you want to have a discussion about Drop Pods, then why don't you start a thread about it....

Ok, Lets try this again:

Yes or No:

A Squad that Cannot normally Outflank can Arrive From Reserved embarked upon a Transport vehicle that can out flank.

A Simple, Yes, or No Please.

don_mondo wrote:

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Again, please explain why you think Tactical Squads cannot Deep Strike inside a Drop Pod.

Hmmm, explain something I never said? Again, you bring up a question about a unit that is totally unrelated to the question at hand. If you want to have a discussion about Drop Pods, then why don't you start a thread about it....

Clay

No, actually that is exactly what you said. You said:
The rules say there are 3 ways to arrive from reserves. THREE.

They are;

1. Outflank
2. Deep strike
3. Move on from your own rear table edge
And more regarding the Vets/Outflaning, yadda yadda, check your own post for details.
Bottom line, if, as you claim, the Vets cannot ride into the game in an Outflanking vehicle because they do not also have Outflank, then neither can the Tactical squad ride into the game in a deep striking vehicle, because they don't have deep strike. So yeah, you did say that. Not directly, but you said it.

Actually, I am not the one stating that a unit riding in a vehicle that outflanks doesn't actually outflank. That's the oppositions stance. So, in my opinion the squad inside is outflanking or deepstriking when it comes in inside a vehicle that arrives using those rules. What I said, was that the unit must be doing one of those things to be arriving on the table edge. So yeah. Re-read the thread.

My opponents in this thread insist that the Vets are NOT outflanking. I say that they are, because they must deploy using one of those three methods.....


Are you clear now?



Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Again, please explain why you think Tactical Squads cannot Deep Strike inside a Drop Pod.

Hmmm, explain something I never said? Again, you bring up a question about a unit that is totally unrelated to the question at hand. If you want to have a discussion about Drop Pods, then why don't you start a thread about it....

Ok, Lets try this again:

Yes or No:

A Squad that Cannot normally Outflank can Arrive From Reserved embarked upon a Transport vehicle that can out flank.

A Simple, Yes, or No Please.

Yes.


As long as it enters play from its rear table edge, and doesn't Outflank. Since the rules for outflanking are pretty clear on who can do this. If it outflanks, then my answer is no.



Clay

So a squad that does not have deep strike cannot ride in a Drop Pod.......... Since it can only arrive via one of three ways, etc etc?

Ok, Lets try this again:

Yes or No:

A Squad that Cannot normally Outflank can Arrive From Reserved embarked upon a Transport vehicle that can out flank.

A Simple, Yes, or No Please.

Yes.


As long as it enters play from its rear table edge, and doesn't Outflank. Since the rules for outflanking are pretty clear on who can do this. If it outflanks, then my answer is no.

So you are also saying that a unit can arrive in a Deep Striking Transport, so long as it enters play from its rear table edge, and doesn't Deep Strike, correct?

Again, a simple yes or no please.

Why not start a thread that pertains to that issue and get some input on it? In my opinion, since the Drop Pod really doesn't work any other way in the game, it's probably RAI that it can DS with units inside that normally can't DS. However, since I'm not the author, I don't know that for sure, so that argument is for someone else.


If the Vendetta is not allowed to confer it's ability onto units inside, there are still a myriad of ways to use the vehicle, all of them legal. Therefore, it's easier to conclude that it's a cloudy issue at best. Again, these are all my opinions.

If you take a hard line RAW stance, something Gwar prides himself on usually, but when it comes to this issue he just throws it out the window, then I would have to agree that neither can happen. But again, we can make a thread to discuss why you guys think the Drop Pod doesn't work, and what RAW supports or doesn't.



Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

Ok, Lets try this again:

Yes or No:

A Squad that Cannot normally Outflank can Arrive From Reserved embarked upon a Transport vehicle that can out flank.

A Simple, Yes, or No Please.

Yes.


As long as it enters play from its rear table edge, and doesn't Outflank. Since the rules for outflanking are pretty clear on who can do this. If it outflanks, then my answer is no.

So you are also saying that a unit can arrive in a Deep Striking Transport, so long as it enters play from its rear table edge, and doesn't Deep Strike, correct?

Again, a simple yes or no please.

Heh, again trying to rope me in on the Drop Pod issue. Yes, if the vehicle is legally allowed to make that move, then I would agree with that statement.



Clay

Primarch wrote:Heh, again trying to rope me in on the Drop Pod issue. Yes, if the vehicle is legally allowed to make that move, then I would agree with that statement.

Umm... no? I am talking about Valkyries, which can Deep Strike.

I notice also a lack of a simple yes or no.

Once again:

Transport Can Deep Strike, Unit Cannot. Can the Unit Arrive in the Deep Striking transport. Yes, or No.

If you discount the Drop Pod issue, can anyone actually detail where in the rulebook/codex that allows what the original poster asked (page #, quotes, etc...)? Simply saying a unit didn't outflank when it jumps out of a transport that just outflanked just doesn't appear to be supported in any rulebook/codex. If it is a consensus on how it is actually played, ok, that I can understand.

But I think the Drop Pod does work, and by applying the same logic, that means the Valk/Vend works the same way, allowing a unit without that ability to enter the game by making use of a transport's ability.
To me, either both work or neither works.

Side note: You in TX? Play in the Dallas GT way back when?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sarigar wrote:If you discount the Drop Pod issue, can anyone actually detail where in the rulebook/codex that allows what the original poster asked (page #, quotes, etc...)? Simply saying a unit didn't outflank when it jumps out of a transport that just outflanked just doesn't appear to be supported in any rulebook/codex. If it is a consensus on how it is actually played, ok, that I can understand.

GAP consensus, using the Drop Pod example as why it works.

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:Heh, again trying to rope me in on the Drop Pod issue. Yes, if the vehicle is legally allowed to make that move, then I would agree with that statement.

Umm... no? I am talking about Valkyries, which can Deep Strike.

I notice also a lack of a simple yes or no.

Once again:

Transport Can Deep Strike, Unit Cannot. Can the Unit Arrive in the Deep Striking transport. Yes, or No.

Yes, from the rear table edge. I believe I said that above.....



Clay

this is a tough call.

so the question at hand is ( and please correct me if I'm wrong):

Does a transport vehicle's special arrival rule confer it upon the unit that is declared embarked in it prior to the deployment of one's army whether that unit has the same rule or not?

So you are saying that a Tac squad cannot Deep Strike onto the table in a DropPod................? That they must walk on from the rear table edge since they do not have the Deep Strike ability.

don_mondo wrote:But I think the Drop Pod does work, and by applying the same logic, that means the Valk/Vend works the same way, allowing a unit without that ability to enter the game by making use of a transport's ability.
To me, either both work or neither works.

Side note: You in TX? Play in the Dallas GT way back when?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sarigar wrote:If you discount the Drop Pod issue, can anyone actually detail where in the rulebook/codex that allows what the original poster asked (page #, quotes, etc...)? Simply saying a unit didn't outflank when it jumps out of a transport that just outflanked just doesn't appear to be supported in any rulebook/codex. If it is a consensus on how it is actually played, ok, that I can understand.

GAP consensus, using the Drop Pod example as why it works.

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. I have posted this before, and will do so again.

Playing strictly by RAW makes the game unplayable. I will agree with that all day. There are times when RAI is painfully obvious. Like Drop pods. They only work one way. ONE WAY. So the RAI must be that it was intended for them to confer their ability onto the unit riding inside. I can't back that up with any rules though, none. There simply aren't any.

The Vendetta, is another thing altogether. There are tons of ways to play with that vehicle. It isn't limited, and works just fine in the game without allowing it to confer it's ability onto the troops. This one, is the opposite of the Drop Pod. I can find rules to support my case that it isn't allowed. The rules tell you who can Outflank. They also tell you how you can arrive from reserves. There are 3 ways, unless you have codex specific rules overriding this.

Either way, it may sounds like I am arguing in circles, but I feel that its a RAI versus RAW issue. One of them is cloudy when you try and look at RAI, but by RAW, you simply can't do it. The other is pretty clear by RAW that it's illegal, however, makes the unit completely worthless as a Dedicated transport if it doesn't confer it's ability onto the unit riding inside.

Any way, I agree with the above poster. Can anyone point to a rule not in the Space marine codex that supports your claim that the Vendetta can confer it's ability onto its passengers? Something either in the IG dex, or the rule book? Just saying that I'm wrong and that if Drop Pods can do it, everyone should be able to, really isn't using the rules for said unit to state your case.....



Clay

i understand the one side of the argument. for example:

a unit of Space Marine Scouts have the "Scouts" special rule.

a Land Speeder Storm also have the "Scouts" special rule.

"Scouts" or "Infiltrators" special rule can be switched over to "outflank".

one reasoning is that if Space Marine Scouts and a Land Speeder Storm have "Scouts"special rule, there should be no problem with them arriving via outflank per RAW.

don_mondo wrote:So you are saying that a Tac squad cannot Deep Strike onto the table in a DropPod................? That they must walk on from the rear table edge since they do not have the Deep Strike ability.

What I am saying, is that a Vendetta cannot outflank with a unit of Vets inside, because the Vets do not have that ability and there are no rules allowing the Vendetta to confer it's ability to them.



Pretty clear statement, and again, why you guys keep talking about a Drop Pod is beyond me. If I stated that my Orks could take Land Raiders because Space Marines could take them, you'd call me crazy. Same thing here, one rule/codex has nothing to do with the other at the end of the day. Start a Drop Pod thread, and I will chime in there. In the mean time, give me some actual rules in either the Rule book, or the IG Codex that allows the Vendetta to carry non-outflanking units onto the table when it Outflanks.



Clay

Land Speeder Storm can also Deep Strike. Can those same Scouts ride in it as it Deep Strikes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Re the Drop Pod/Tac squad, it's because of what you said right here where you said a unit (Tac Squad in my example) cannot arrive in a Deep Striking transport because they don't have the Deep Strike ability. Yes, from the rear table edge does not equate to deep striking.

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:Heh, again trying to rope me in on the Drop Pod issue. Yes, if the vehicle is legally allowed to make that move, then I would agree with that statement.

Umm... no? I am talking about Valkyries, which can Deep Strike.

I notice also a lack of a simple yes or no.

Once again:

Transport Can Deep Strike, Unit Cannot. Can the Unit Arrive in the Deep Striking transport. Yes, or No.

Yes, from the rear table edge. I believe I said that above.....

Clay

that's the thing....I personally don't know.

And I play Imperial Guard.

don_mondo wrote:Land Speeder Storm can also Deep Strike. Can those same Scouts ride in it as it Deep Strikes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Re the Drop Pod/Tac squad, it's because of what you said right here where you said a unit (Tac Squad in my example) cannot arrive in a Deep Striking transport because they don't have the Deep Strike ability. Yes, from the rear table edge does not equate to deep striking.

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:Heh, again trying to rope me in on the Drop Pod issue. Yes, if the vehicle is legally allowed to make that move, then I would agree with that statement.

Umm... no? I am talking about Valkyries, which can Deep Strike.

I notice also a lack of a simple yes or no.

Once again:

Transport Can Deep Strike, Unit Cannot. Can the Unit Arrive in the Deep Striking transport. Yes, or No.

Yes, from the rear table edge. I believe I said that above.....

Clay

Hmmm, let me state my position in a different way......



By RAW - No, you cannot Deep strike in a drop pod because the rules don't allow for vehicles to confer their abilities on their passengers. Same goes for Vendettas.


By RAI - It is my belief that the RAI are for a Drop Pod to be able to deep strike with passengers because the vehicle does not work any other way. As for the Vendetta, I can see both sides of the argument, but the RAI is cloudy at best simply because the vehicle does work in a myriad of other ways.



We may not agree, but this has been a pretty civil discussion at least. Thanks for that.


Clay

Primarch, the burden is on you to prove that a unit embarked on a transport cannot ride the transport onto the board using deep strike or outflank. All you've done so far is repeat a vague and unfounded assertion that the transported unit must have the same deployment mechanism that the transport is using.

The transport unit has ability X which allows it to deep strike or outflank. The transported unit has permission to embark onto the transport during deployment. The transport arrives using its chosen deployment method.

Please cite the section in the rules which prohibits the transported unit from entering play embarked on the transport and later disembarking.

The fact that the Valk/Vend has other abilities is irrelevant. It can Deep Strike, it can Outflank, it can enter via regular Reserves, it can start on the table and Scout move. No one of those abiliites impinges upon the other abilities. Same thing with the Land Speeder Storm. Same issue arises with Dark Eldar Raiders with Screaming Jets (I think that's the right name). I'm sure there are some I'm missing. Point being, if any one of these confers it's special "come in from reserves" ability to an embarked unit, then they should all confer.

If Marines were still required to ride in their Drop Pod once they bought it, I might think differently. But given taht they can choose to Deep strike in, Outflank (with the right Character), deploy normally Reserves normally, well, makes the dedicated transport issue a non-issue to me, if you see what I mean.

another example from the IG codex:

Storm Trooper Squad have the "Special Operations" rule.

one of the three options for "Special Operations" is "Reconnaissance" which grants the Scouts and Move Through Cover special rule.

a Valkyrie/Vendetta have the "Scout" special rule.

so if you give your Storm Trooper Squad the Reconnaissance option and declare them inside a Valkyrie/Vendetta at the deployment step, then both should be able to outflank.

Veterans for example do not have a "Scout" rule.

so some would assume that they would not be granted the outflank rule even though they were declared inside the Valkyrie/Vendetta during the players deployment.

However, a Space Marine Drop Pod is a "dedicated" transport. So if it is dedicated (or bought "points wise" along with a unit), then it's special rule can be applied to the unit it was dedicated to.

is this presumption within reason??

Why? Being dedicated only means that only the unit that it was bought for can start the game in it. Otherwise it has no rules to differentiate it from a non-dedicated transpot. They are separate units, just as the Valk and Vets are separate units.

However, a Space Marine Drop Pod is a "dedicated" transport. So if it is dedicated (or bought "points wise" along with a unit), then it's special rule can be applied to the unit it was dedicated to.

It's a presumption, a pretty big one. You are saying things that are not present anywhere in the rules and assuming them to be so.

well the only reason I question the argument is that right now, GW offers a Space Marine army set made up of Drop Pods, Tactical Squads, Assault Marines, and Terminator Squads in their Online Store for over a $1000.

Before a person spends that kind of money, I would assume that GW wouldn't sell such an army deal without it being able to work if someone was applying RAW.

Unless I'm mistaken and there is some ammendment with the "Planet Strike" book and the normal "40K rulebook.

what is the correct justification?

Sarigar wrote:If you discount the Drop Pod issue, can anyone actually detail where in the rulebook/codex that allows what the original poster asked (page #, quotes, etc...)? Simply saying a unit didn't outflank when it jumps out of a transport that just outflanked just doesn't appear to be supported in any rulebook/codex. If it is a consensus on how it is actually played, ok, that I can understand.

Can't just throw out the drop pod issue. If valks/vends don't work, then neither do drop pods. This leads to the inevitable conclusion that valks / vends do work.

What and how GW packages stuff for sale has no bearing on the rules.
Either we can accept that a unit can enter play in a transport (dedicated or otherwise), regardless of how the transport is entering play, or we declare certain units nigh unuseable.

Are the vets in this instance "deployed" when they outflank or do they "deploy" when they choose to leave the vendetta? I mean up until they actually disembark from the vendetta, they are not on the table.

So the Vendetta outflanks (perfectly legal since it has that ability) and afterwards the Vets deep strike from the Vendetta (perfectly legal).

No, I'm sure at that point the unit is considered deployed since it is embarked in a unit that is deployed/in play and are thus no longer in reserves.

Basically it boils down to this:

At the beginning of the game, I declare my melta vets will begin the game embarked in a vendetta, and then I tell my opponent at deployment that my vendetta will be outflanking. At this point, we have not run into any problems, and there is no rule anywhere that says i cannot have my vendetta set to outflank (i.e. if this were illegal, the outflanking rules would say: Transports with the scout ability may not outflank if they are carrying a unit that does not have the scout/infiltrate ability).

Now, when I successfully roll for this combo from reserves it MUST enter play. By RaW the vendetta MUST enter play by outflanking, as I can't change my mind once deployment is complete, and likewise the vets MUST come into play riding the vendetta.

How then is this handled? Is the unit lost? Does the vendetta never come on? Does the game end?

solkan wrote:Primarch, the burden is on you to prove that a unit embarked on a transport cannot ride the transport onto the board using deep strike or outflank. All you've done so far is repeat a vague and unfounded assertion that the transported unit must have the same deployment mechanism that the transport is using.

The transport unit has ability X which allows it to deep strike or outflank. The transported unit has permission to embark onto the transport during deployment. The transport arrives using its chosen deployment method.

Please cite the section in the rules which prohibits the transported unit from entering play embarked on the transport and later disembarking.

Seriously? Have you bothered to read any part of this thread or the others where this has been discussed?



These are the facts that you obviously either ignored, or have no clue about.



I have quoted real rules from the real rulebook. One of them is the Outflank rule. It SPECIFICALLY tells you WHO CAN OUTFLANK. Specifically. Then, when I gave this as my argument. The opponents of said argument gave these responses;

"The Vets are NOT outflanking, only the Vendetta is."
"If Drop Pods work, then so do Vendettas"

Now, I hear their argument, and I counter with this;

The rulebook is again clear on how you can arrive from reserves, there are 3 ways. Deep strike, Outflank, move on from rear table edge. If there are no special deployment rules for Vets in the IG dex, and there aren't, then you must follow the rules in the rulebook. So, the Vets are indeed arriving using one of the three mentioned rules. Again, I quoted the rulebook here.

Secondly, the Drop Pod argument is not valid because you can't use rules from other codexes to gain an advantage in a different codex. I am not sure why this is even part of the argument. The rules for the Drop pod may be questioned, but it certainly doesn't answer the Vendetta question.

Their replies;

"You are wrong, the drop pod works, so the Vendetta must."
"The Vets are not outflanking, the Vendetta is."



So now, why do you post that the burden of proof is on me, when I have posted the rules multiple times, and they have posted NO rules to support their position. Seriously, before commenting again, read the thread, and educate yourself about what's going on here.


Clay

I don't know.

I play IG and have been outflanking with vendettas and veterans inside them since the new codex came out.

nobody at my local game store has ever given me trouble with it and that's whether playing casual or hosting an RTT or Ard Boyz tournament.

I guess it's up to house rules to decide since there is no clarification.

if doesn't bother your opponent, then why not?

but I admit that this is a pretty damn good topic, and I think it should've been addressed back when GW did it's IG errata/faq.

Ok then!

Drop Pods don't work you heard the man. Obviously he is correct, because he has learnings!

WarsawTom wrote:I don't know.

I play IG and have been outflanking with vendettas and veterans inside them since the new codex came out.

nobody at my local game store has ever given me trouble with it and that's whether playing casual or hosting an RTT or Ard Boyz tournament.

I guess it's up to house rules to decide since there is no clarification.

if doesn't bother your opponent, then why not?

but I admit that this is a pretty damn good topic, and I think it should've been addressed back when GW did it's IG errata/faq.

The reason it wasn't addressed is because it is completely absurd. There's no reason to. Despite what others say, Drop Pods use the exact same mechanic. There is no special rule for drop pods that allow them to work this way, but some would for no sane reason require that vendettas do have a special rule? It makes absolutely zero sense, and would be a waste of time and space in an FAQ/Errata.

apwill4765 wrote:Basically it boils down to this:

At the beginning of the game, I declare my melta vets will begin the game embarked in a vendetta, and then I tell my opponent at deployment that my vendetta will be outflanking. At this point, we have not run into any problems, and there is no rule anywhere that says i cannot have my vendetta set to outflank (i.e. if this were illegal, the outflanking rules would say: Transports with the scout ability may not outflank if they are carrying a unit that does not have the scout/infiltrate ability).

Now, when I successfully roll for this combo from reserves it MUST enter play. By RaW the vendetta MUST enter play by outflanking, as I can't change my mind once deployment is complete, and likewise the vets MUST come into play riding the vendetta.

How then is this handled? Is the unit lost? Does the vendetta never come on? Does the game end?

Actually, 40k is a PERMISSIVE rule set. It tells you what you CAN do, not what you can't in most cases. So that means, the fact that the Outflanking rules tell you what can outflank, and Vets have no rules allowing them to do so, that they cannot by definition.

I mean, using your logic, I can give all my Orks transports from the Marine Codex if I want, because it doesn't say anywhere in my Ork codex that I can't do this. Of course thats a silly example, and since the Ruleset is PERMISSIVE, I know that the Ork Codex tells me what I CAN do, not what I CAN'T.



Clay

He insists that Vendettas work differently because they are more useful than drop pods.

I would also back up my argument that when embarked, units no longer move as infantry, they move exactly as the vehicle in the Movement Phase.

So considering the Vendetta is Outflanking (in the Movement Phase), a unit embarked in the Vendetta would be moving as the Vendetta is moving.

Burger Rage wrote:He insists that Vendettas work differently because they are more useful than drop pods.

Pretty much how I have seen it from the other threads he has wined about them.

By His logic, as has been pointed out, models inside transports cannot be moved more than their normal movement, meaning a a rhino cannot go 7" with a unit inside.

Primarch wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:Basically it boils down to this:

At the beginning of the game, I declare my melta vets will begin the game embarked in a vendetta, and then I tell my opponent at deployment that my vendetta will be outflanking. At this point, we have not run into any problems, and there is no rule anywhere that says i cannot have my vendetta set to outflank (i.e. if this were illegal, the outflanking rules would say: Transports with the scout ability may not outflank if they are carrying a unit that does not have the scout/infiltrate ability).

Now, when I successfully roll for this combo from reserves it MUST enter play. By RaW the vendetta MUST enter play by outflanking, as I can't change my mind once deployment is complete, and likewise the vets MUST come into play riding the vendetta.

How then is this handled? Is the unit lost? Does the vendetta never come on? Does the game end?

Actually, 40k is a PERMISSIVE rule set. It tells you what you CAN do, not what you can't in most cases. So that means, the fact that the Outflanking rules tell you what can outflank, and Vets have no rules allowing them to do so, that they cannot by definition.

I mean, using your logic, I can give all my Orks transports from the Marine Codex if I want, because it doesn't say anywhere in my Ork codex that I can't do this. Of course thats a silly example, and since the Ruleset is PERMISSIVE, I know that the Ork Codex tells me what I CAN do, not what I CAN'T.



Clay

You didn't really answer my question. The rules allow me to begin the game with a unit in a transport. I put vets in my vendetta. The rules allow me (because the vendetta has scout) to place the vendetta in reserve and declare that it is outflanking. When the vendetta is set to come in, what happens? The vets MUST be in the vendetta, and the vendetta MUST come in by outflanking

apwill4765 wrote:

WarsawTom wrote:I don't know.

I play IG and have been outflanking with vendettas and veterans inside them since the new codex came out.

nobody at my local game store has ever given me trouble with it and that's whether playing casual or hosting an RTT or Ard Boyz tournament.

I guess it's up to house rules to decide since there is no clarification.

if doesn't bother your opponent, then why not?

but I admit that this is a pretty damn good topic, and I think it should've been addressed back when GW did it's IG errata/faq.

The reason it wasn't addressed is because it is completely absurd. There's no reason to. Despite what others say, Drop Pods use the exact same mechanic. There is no special rule for drop pods that allow them to work this way, but some would for no sane reason require that vendettas do have a special rule? It makes absolutely zero sense, and would be a waste of time and space in an FAQ/Errata.

Again, because the Vendetta can work in a lot of different ways? The poster above mentioned that Storm Troopers can gain rules that allow them to Outflank inside a Vendetta. I mean, where do you guys stand in the RAW versus RAI debate? I had thought GWAR on one side of the fence, but now it seems as if he changes his position on a case by case basis. Which is fine, I feel that same way about the 40k rules, sometimes the RAI is obvious, other times it isn't, so you lean towards the RAW.


Clay

Does the Outflank rule say that a unit without the Outflank may not enter play while riding in an Outflanking vehicle? Does it say they can?

Answer, doesn't say either way.

Does the Deep Strike rule say that a unit without Deep Strike may enter play in a Deep Striking vehicle?
Same answer, doesn't say either way.

So neither side can use the rules to prove a point.

However (and you keep trying to toss it aside, because it really shoots your whole premise in the foot), we do have the Drop Pod example. It is fairly obvious that units without the Deep Strike rule are meant to be able to enter play while riding in a Drop Pod. From this we can infer that a unit can indeed ride into the game in a vehicle possessing (and using) an ability that the unit does not have. Same for Dark Eldar Screaming Jets. Two examples. Using those examples as a baseline, we can say that a unit without Outflank can ride into the game in an Outflanking transport. To prove this wrong, you have to shoot down the Drop Pod issue, which is the basis underlying the later points.

Go for it.

No, I argue the RaW, which is that they Can.

If you don't like it, that's your problem, not ours.

By your logic, Drop Pods don't work and transports with an embarked unit can never move more than 6".

Primarch wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

WarsawTom wrote:I don't know.

I play IG and have been outflanking with vendettas and veterans inside them since the new codex came out.

nobody at my local game store has ever given me trouble with it and that's whether playing casual or hosting an RTT or Ard Boyz tournament.

I guess it's up to house rules to decide since there is no clarification.

if doesn't bother your opponent, then why not?

but I admit that this is a pretty damn good topic, and I think it should've been addressed back when GW did it's IG errata/faq.

The reason it wasn't addressed is because it is completely absurd. There's no reason to. Despite what others say, Drop Pods use the exact same mechanic. There is no special rule for drop pods that allow them to work this way, but some would for no sane reason require that vendettas do have a special rule? It makes absolutely zero sense, and would be a waste of time and space in an FAQ/Errata.

Again, because the Vendetta can work in a lot of different ways? The poster above mentioned that Storm Troopers can gain rules that allow them to Outflank inside a Vendetta. I mean, where do you guys stand in the RAW versus RAI debate? I had thought GWAR on one side of the fence, but now it seems as if he changes his position on a case by case basis. Which is fine, I feel that same way about the 40k rules, sometimes the RAI is obvious, other times it isn't, so you lean towards the RAW.


Clay

Because the vendetta has more uses, it shouldn't have...more uses? Can you please give me a list of the appropriate uses as handed down by GW? No? OK, then let's just use all the possible uses as given by the rules. . .

EDIT: Also, the BGB does not anywhere tell me I can give orks space marine transports. It does tell me I can put units into transports that they have access to as an army, and that transports with the scout rule can arrive via outflanking. At that point, what must happen, due to my deployment, does happen.

No one at my shops, or in any of the tournaments I've run has ever even brought it up. People outflank with units in them all, and everyone considers it to be legal by the rules.

Not too strangely, every seems to think that the transports vehicles with the outlfank rule can load up troops and outflank with them.

I believe that the Intention is definitely that the unit gains the ability to Outflank but nowhere AT ALL does the rules clarify that they may do so.

Primarch wrote:

Again, because the Vendetta can work in a lot of different ways?
Clay

Which is totally irrelevant when discussing their ability to Outflank. It wouldn't matter if it had 20 other special rules, unless one of those special rules specifically mentioned that it interacted with the vehicle's ability to Outflank.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:I believe that the Intention is definitely that the unit gains the ability to Outflank but nowhere AT ALL does the rules clarify that they may do so.

So you stand by the assertion that Drop Pods do not work then?

Gwar! wrote:

Burger Rage wrote:He insists that Vendettas work differently because they are more useful than drop pods.

Pretty much how I have seen it from the other threads he has wined about them.

By His logic, as has been pointed out, models inside transports cannot be moved more than their normal movement, meaning a a rhino cannot go 7" with a unit inside.

Hmm, I'd appreciate it if you kept the personal attacks out of this GWAR. In all the rules arguments you have been in, were you wining? Neither am I. I am discussing it, like most others in this thread, like an adult. Please join us.


To your second point, I guess by your logic, I can move 12 inches in a fast vehicle and fire a heavy weapon out right? Because the vehicle is confering it's abilities onto the unit inside? No, of course not, because those rules are completely different than what we are talking about here.



Clay

Another question: Does a fast skimmer transport give its flat out movement rule to the unit inside? If not, because the unit inside is infantry, it can only move 6" while a unit is embarked. Nothing SAYS that the transport confers this special movement to the unit inside. . .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Burger Rage wrote:He insists that Vendettas work differently because they are more useful than drop pods.

Pretty much how I have seen it from the other threads he has wined about them.

By His logic, as has been pointed out, models inside transports cannot be moved more than their normal movement, meaning a a rhino cannot go 7" with a unit inside.

Hmm, I'd appreciate it if you kept the personal attacks out of this GWAR. In all the rules arguments you have been in, were you wining? Neither am I. I am discussing it, like most others in this thread, like an adult. Please join us.


To your second point, I guess by your logic, I can move 12 inches in a fast vehicle and fire a heavy weapon out right? Because the vehicle is confering it's abilities onto the unit inside? No, of course not, because those rules are completely different than what we are talking about here.



Clay

Your heavy weapons example is specifically addressed in the BGB. It states that units in a transport that has moved counts as moving for the purposes of firing heavy / rapid fire weapons.

I have a buddy who fields 6 Valkyries and 3 Vendettas. And he pretty much puts most of his guard army inside them whether they have outflank rule or not, and uses the outflank rule none-the-less.

I thinks its pretty damn cool and would never doubt the validity of such an awesome force.

but that is just my opinion.

Primarch wrote:

To your second point, I guess by your logic, I can move 12 inches in a fast vehicle and fire a heavy weapon out right? Because the vehicle is confering it's abilities onto the unit inside? No, of course not, because those rules are completely different than what we are talking about here.

Clay

Nope, because the vehicle movement rules specifically tell us how shooting and vehicle movement interact. Nothing tells us about any interaction between Outflanking vehicles and embarked passengers, so we fall back on a known quantity, the Drop Pod Deep Strike with embarked passengers...........................

No, I stand by the assertion that the rules do not support a myriad of things in this game and we must use that bit of jelly behind our eyes.

Yummmm, jelly. Grape or Strawberry? Is it in a donut?

apwill4765 wrote:

Primarch wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

WarsawTom wrote:I don't know.

I play IG and have been outflanking with vendettas and veterans inside them since the new codex came out.

nobody at my local game store has ever given me trouble with it and that's whether playing casual or hosting an RTT or Ard Boyz tournament.

I guess it's up to house rules to decide since there is no clarification.

if doesn't bother your opponent, then why not?

but I admit that this is a pretty damn good topic, and I think it should've been addressed back when GW did it's IG errata/faq.

The reason it wasn't addressed is because it is completely absurd. There's no reason to. Despite what others say, Drop Pods use the exact same mechanic. There is no special rule for drop pods that allow them to work this way, but some would for no sane reason require that vendettas do have a special rule? It makes absolutely zero sense, and would be a waste of time and space in an FAQ/Errata.

Again, because the Vendetta can work in a lot of different ways? The poster above mentioned that Storm Troopers can gain rules that allow them to Outflank inside a Vendetta. I mean, where do you guys stand in the RAW versus RAI debate? I had thought GWAR on one side of the fence, but now it seems as if he changes his position on a case by case basis. Which is fine, I feel that same way about the 40k rules, sometimes the RAI is obvious, other times it isn't, so you lean towards the RAW.


Clay

Because the vendetta has more uses, it shouldn't have...more uses? Can you please give me a list of the appropriate uses as handed down by GW? No? OK, then let's just use all the possible uses as given by the rules. . .

EDIT: Also, the BGB does not anywhere tell me I can give orks space marine transports. It does tell me I can put units into transports that they have access to as an army, and that transports with the scout rule can arrive via outflanking. At that point, what must happen, due to my deployment, does happen.

It also tells you WHO CAN OUTFLANK. Where are the Vets gaining this power according to the RULES in the book again? Man, the example about the Orks was trying to be used to show that 40k is a PERMISSIVE rule set, I am not sure how to say this any more clear so you can get it. Do you understand what that means?

Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

don_mondo wrote:

Primarch wrote:

To your second point, I guess by your logic, I can move 12 inches in a fast vehicle and fire a heavy weapon out right? Because the vehicle is confering it's abilities onto the unit inside? No, of course not, because those rules are completely different than what we are talking about here.

Clay

Nope, because the vehicle movement rules specifically tell us how shooting and vehicle movement interact. Nothing tells us about any interaction between Outflanking vehicles and embarked passengers, so we fall back on a known quantity, the Drop Pod Deep Strike with embarked passengers...........................

Don, do you read my whole posts, or just stop when you feel like it and reply? Read the last part of my post where I go on to say that of course I can't move 12 inches and fire a heavy weapon, because there are rules preventing this. Seriously man, read my WHOLE post so I don't have to reply to this sillyness over and over again.



Clay

And Deep Strike tells you who can Deep Strike. Where is the Tac Squad in the Drop Pod getting it's ability to Deep Strike?

Willy go round in circles..............

-Sigh- Here we go again

Primarch wrote:

solkan wrote:Primarch, the burden is on you to prove that a unit embarked on a transport cannot ride the transport onto the board using deep strike or outflank. All you've done so far is repeat a vague and unfounded assertion that the transported unit must have the same deployment mechanism that the transport is using.

The transport unit has ability X which allows it to deep strike or outflank. The transported unit has permission to embark onto the transport during deployment. The transport arrives using its chosen deployment method.

Please cite the section in the rules which prohibits the transported unit from entering play embarked on the transport and later disembarking.



Seriously? Have you bothered to read any part of this thread or the others where this has been discussed?

You've been told repeatedly that you are wrong and that there is no basis for your statements, and yet you continue to repeat your conclusion without any evidence to back it up.

These are the facts that you obviously either ignored, or have no clue about.

I have quoted real rules from the real rulebook. One of them is the Outflank rule. It SPECIFICALLY tells you WHO CAN OUTFLANK. Specifically. Then, when I gave this as my argument. The opponents of said argument gave these responses;

"The Vets are NOT outflanking, only the Vendetta is."
"If Drop Pods work, then so do Vendettas"

Now, I hear their argument, and I counter with this;

The rulebook is again clear on how you can arrive from reserves, there are 3 ways. Deep strike, Outflank, move on from rear table edge. If there are no special deployment rules for Vets in the IG dex, and there aren't, then you must follow the rules in the rulebook. So, the Vets are indeed arriving using one of the three mentioned rules. Again, I quoted the rulebook here.

And this is the point where I came back and gave you a list of all of the other deployment mechanisms in the game which have nothing to do with your list of three elements. So my counter point is that your claim that there are only three deployment mechanisms and therefore the embarked unit must be using one of them fails because there are more deployment mechanisms than are listed in the book.

Where's your proof that a unit in an outflanking transport is either considered to be outflanking or required to be able to outflank?

Secondly, the Drop Pod argument is not valid because you can't use rules from other codexes to gain an advantage in a different codex. I am not sure why this is even part of the argument. The rules for the Drop pod may be questioned, but it certainly doesn't answer the Vendetta question.

Their replies;

"You are wrong, the drop pod works, so the Vendetta must."
"The Vets are not outflanking, the Vendetta is."



So now, why do you post that the burden of proof is on me, when I have posted the rules multiple times, and they have posted NO rules to support their position. Seriously, before commenting again, read the thread, and educate yourself about what's going on here.

And I counter that you have no idea how the rules for the game work at all. One rule gives the transport permission to outflank, another rule gives a unit permission to embark on the transport, and that's all that is needed for the transport to outflank. These are general rules, just like the fact that my unit can shoot at your unit as a specific instance of the general shooting rules without the need for a rule specifying that Space Marines can shoot Orks.

Here, I'll go first and quote the rules which support my conclusion:
1. Page 94, the first few sentences of the Outflank rule and paragraph five of Preparing Reserves allow a player to declare that the valkerie (for example) is outflanking when held in reserve.
2. Page 94, paragraph four of the Preparing reserves section gives a player permission to specify that another unit is embarked in a transport being held in reserve.
3. QED, the unit arrives on the outflanking transport without violating any rules.

Now your turn. Please quote me any rules backing up your position that the unit embarked in the transport must be able to outflank, or is even considered to be outflanking, if embarked on a transport which enters play using Outflank.

Edit: Edited because the quote brackets got messed up.

Primarch wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

Primarch wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

WarsawTom wrote:I don't know.

I play IG and have been outflanking with vendettas and veterans inside them since the new codex came out.

nobody at my local game store has ever given me trouble with it and that's whether playing casual or hosting an RTT or Ard Boyz tournament.

I guess it's up to house rules to decide since there is no clarification.

if doesn't bother your opponent, then why not?

but I admit that this is a pretty damn good topic, and I think it should've been addressed back when GW did it's IG errata/faq.

The reason it wasn't addressed is because it is completely absurd. There's no reason to. Despite what others say, Drop Pods use the exact same mechanic. There is no special rule for drop pods that allow them to work this way, but some would for no sane reason require that vendettas do have a special rule? It makes absolutely zero sense, and would be a waste of time and space in an FAQ/Errata.

Again, because the Vendetta can work in a lot of different ways? The poster above mentioned that Storm Troopers can gain rules that allow them to Outflank inside a Vendetta. I mean, where do you guys stand in the RAW versus RAI debate? I had thought GWAR on one side of the fence, but now it seems as if he changes his position on a case by case basis. Which is fine, I feel that same way about the 40k rules, sometimes the RAI is obvious, other times it isn't, so you lean towards the RAW.


Clay

Because the vendetta has more uses, it shouldn't have...more uses? Can you please give me a list of the appropriate uses as handed down by GW? No? OK, then let's just use all the possible uses as given by the rules. . .

EDIT: Also, the BGB does not anywhere tell me I can give orks space marine transports. It does tell me I can put units into transports that they have access to as an army, and that transports with the scout rule can arrive via outflanking. At that point, what must happen, due to my deployment, does happen.

It also tells you WHO CAN OUTFLANK. Where are the Vets gaining this power according to the RULES in the book again? Man, the example about the Orks was trying to be used to show that 40k is a PERMISSIVE rule set, I am not sure how to say this any more clear so you can get it. Do you understand what that means?

Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

don_mondo wrote:

Primarch wrote:

To your second point, I guess by your logic, I can move 12 inches in a fast vehicle and fire a heavy weapon out right? Because the vehicle is confering it's abilities onto the unit inside? No, of course not, because those rules are completely different than what we are talking about here.

Clay

Nope, because the vehicle movement rules specifically tell us how shooting and vehicle movement interact. Nothing tells us about any interaction between Outflanking vehicles and embarked passengers, so we fall back on a known quantity, the Drop Pod Deep Strike with embarked passengers...........................

Don, do you read my whole posts, or just stop when you feel like it and reply? Read the last part of my post where I go on to say that of course I can't move 12 inches and fire a heavy weapon, because there are rules preventing this. Seriously man, read my WHOLE post so I don't have to reply to this sillyness over and over again.



Clay

You still didn't answer my question.

1) Vets are placed in vendetta at deployment (the rules specifically permit me to do this)
2) Vendetta deployment is declared as 'outflanking' (the rules specifically permit me to do this)
3) Vendetta arrives from reserves

What happens to this unit? Do you not have an answer or are you ignoring it? See, all permissive.

don_mondo wrote:And Deep Strike tells you who can Deep Strike. Where is the Tac Squad in the Drop Pod getting it's ability to Deep Strike?

Willy go round in circles..............

Fine, so your stance is that Drop Pods can't deep strike with units in them. Great, I can see where you would come to that conclusion using RAW. To me, the intent was clear, but the rules weren't.


Now, about the Vendetta?



Clay

Clay, my point was that we know you cannot shoot BECAUSE there's a rule that says so one way or the other. There is no rule saying one way or the other regarding embarked passengers in and Outflanking/Deep Striking vehicle. That was my point for answering you as I did, and I made taht point quite clearly, I thought. The whole interaction bit...........

Also, we all know you conveniently want to throw out drop pods because your logic breaks drop pods. So let's just throw out the pretense and get you to say it so we can all roll our eyes and go home. You don't think drop pods work by RaW, do you?

EDIT: you beat me to it.

OK then. I'm goin home

No, my stance is that Drop Pods can Deep Strike with units in them, and ergo, units can enter in Outflanking transports. To me, the INTENT there is clear............

apwill4765 wrote:

Primarch wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

Primarch wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

WarsawTom wrote:I don't know.

I play IG and have been outflanking with vendettas and veterans inside them since the new codex came out.

nobody at my local game store has ever given me trouble with it and that's whether playing casual or hosting an RTT or Ard Boyz tournament.

I guess it's up to house rules to decide since there is no clarification.

if doesn't bother your opponent, then why not?

but I admit that this is a pretty damn good topic, and I think it should've been addressed back when GW did it's IG errata/faq.

The reason it wasn't addressed is because it is completely absurd. There's no reason to. Despite what others say, Drop Pods use the exact same mechanic. There is no special rule for drop pods that allow them to work this way, but some would for no sane reason require that vendettas do have a special rule? It makes absolutely zero sense, and would be a waste of time and space in an FAQ/Errata.

Again, because the Vendetta can work in a lot of different ways? The poster above mentioned that Storm Troopers can gain rules that allow them to Outflank inside a Vendetta. I mean, where do you guys stand in the RAW versus RAI debate? I had thought GWAR on one side of the fence, but now it seems as if he changes his position on a case by case basis. Which is fine, I feel that same way about the 40k rules, sometimes the RAI is obvious, other times it isn't, so you lean towards the RAW.


Clay

Because the vendetta has more uses, it shouldn't have...more uses? Can you please give me a list of the appropriate uses as handed down by GW? No? OK, then let's just use all the possible uses as given by the rules. . .

EDIT: Also, the BGB does not anywhere tell me I can give orks space marine transports. It does tell me I can put units into transports that they have access to as an army, and that transports with the scout rule can arrive via outflanking. At that point, what must happen, due to my deployment, does happen.

It also tells you WHO CAN OUTFLANK. Where are the Vets gaining this power according to the RULES in the book again? Man, the example about the Orks was trying to be used to show that 40k is a PERMISSIVE rule set, I am not sure how to say this any more clear so you can get it. Do you understand what that means?

Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

don_mondo wrote:

Primarch wrote:

To your second point, I guess by your logic, I can move 12 inches in a fast vehicle and fire a heavy weapon out right? Because the vehicle is confering it's abilities onto the unit inside? No, of course not, because those rules are completely different than what we are talking about here.

Clay

Nope, because the vehicle movement rules specifically tell us how shooting and vehicle movement interact. Nothing tells us about any interaction between Outflanking vehicles and embarked passengers, so we fall back on a known quantity, the Drop Pod Deep Strike with embarked passengers...........................

Don, do you read my whole posts, or just stop when you feel like it and reply? Read the last part of my post where I go on to say that of course I can't move 12 inches and fire a heavy weapon, because there are rules preventing this. Seriously man, read my WHOLE post so I don't have to reply to this sillyness over and over again.



Clay

You still didn't answer my question.

1) Vets are placed in vendetta at deployment (the rules specifically permit me to do this)
2) Vendetta deployment is declared as 'outflanking' (the rules specifically permit me to do this)
3) Vendetta arrives from reserves

What happens to this unit? Do you not have an answer or are you ignoring it? See, all permissive.

Ok,

1. Vets are placed in Vendetta at deployment, I agree, rules allow this.
2. Vendetta deployment is declared as outflanking. Wrong, the rules allow the Vendetta, but not the Vets to outflank, so how are you declaring the Vets to outflank?
3. See step 2.


You are breaking the rules at step 2, which do not permit you to outflank with Vets.



Clay

sorry don, i didn't quote, but i was speaking to clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Clay: I'm NOT declaring the vets are outflanking. I'm declaring the vendetta is outflanking, as permitted by the rules. This is where you can't make the understanding leap. The rules allow me to declare the vendetta as outflanking, and FORCE me to bring on the vets with the vendetta.

I know, my response was also to him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Primarch wrote:
Ok,

1. Vets are placed in Vendetta at deployment, I agree, rules allow this.
2. Vendetta deployment is declared as outflanking. Wrong, the rules allow the Vendetta, but not the Vets to outflank, so how are you declaring the Vets to outflank?
3. See step 2.

You are breaking the rules at step 2, which do not permit you to outflank with Vets.

Clay

OK,

1. Vets (change to Tac Squad) are placed in Vendetta (change to Drop Pod) at deployment, I agree, rules allow this.
2. Vendetta (Drop Pod) deployment is declared as outflanking (Deep Striking). Wrong, the rules allow the Vendetta (Drop Pod), but not the Vets (Tac Squad)to outflank (Deep Strike), so how are you declaring the Vets (Tac Squad) to outflank (Deep Strike)?
3. See step 2.

You are breaking the rules at step 2, which do not permit you to outflank (Deep Strike) with Vets (Tac Squad).

Yet to you the intent for the drop pod is clear......??

give us, us "outflank".

don_mondo wrote:No, my stance is that Drop Pods can Deep Strike with units in them, and ergo, units can enter in Outflanking transports. To me, the INTENT there is clear............

Ya know, I'm happy with this statement I guess. It isn't quite what I was after, but it's close. At least you are saying the INTENT now, instead of it being a clear hard and fast rule. I think it's cloudy at best, but the intent very well could be that it's perfectly legal. I have no problem with that, and am fine playing it the way most of you think the intent of it is. The INAT has already ruled in your favor.


I just wanted to point out that there is no RAW answer that supports either the DS in the Drop Pod, or the Outflank in the Vendetta. RAI, yes for sure on the Drop Pod, and I'm still 50/50 on the Vendetta.


Clay

Primarch wrote:I just wanted to point out that there is no RAW answer that supports either the DS in the Drop Pod, or the Outflank in the Vendetta. RAI, yes for sure on the Drop Pod, and I'm still 50/50 on the Vendetta.

How can you be 100% on one and 50/50 on the other, when it is the EXACT SAME SITUATION.

I've said that all along, that the rules weren't clear and that we had to fall back on the Drop Pod to determine whether or not it worked........... That would be why we all kept dragging the Drop Pod into the discussion, because it's a known example for intent.

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:I just wanted to point out that there is no RAW answer that supports either the DS in the Drop Pod, or the Outflank in the Vendetta. RAI, yes for sure on the Drop Pod, and I'm still 50/50 on the Vendetta.

How can you be 100% on one and 50/50 on the other, when it is the EXACT SAME SITUATION.

Because thats the only way the Drop Pod can possibly work as a Dedicated transport? So if that wasn't the intent, then what was?


Because the Vendetta, can carry legal outflanking ability troops and still Outflank, as well as a multitude of other deployment options, and doesn't need to outflank with non-outflanking troops to work?



Clay

Primarch wrote:

don_mondo wrote:No, my stance is that Drop Pods can Deep Strike with units in them, and ergo, units can enter in Outflanking transports. To me, the INTENT there is clear............

Ya know, I'm happy with this statement I guess. It isn't quite what I was after, but it's close. At least you are saying the INTENT now, instead of it being a clear hard and fast rule. I think it's cloudy at best, but the intent very well could be that it's perfectly legal. I have no problem with that, and am fine playing it the way most of you think the intent of it is. The INAT has already ruled in your favor.


I just wanted to point out that there is no RAW answer that supports either the DS in the Drop Pod, or the Outflank in the Vendetta. RAI, yes for sure on the Drop Pod, and I'm still 50/50 on the Vendetta.


Clay

This is one way of looking at it. Another way is that the RaW clearly states how vets may outflank in a vendetta, and you are interpreting them incorrectly.

It could be either, GW sucks at rule writing, but I personally believe it is the latter, as per my argument. The vendetta MAY outflank (as a scout unit), and the vets MUST come on with the vendetta if they are declared to be embarked during deployment (as per the BGB).

apwill4765 wrote:

Primarch wrote:

don_mondo wrote:No, my stance is that Drop Pods can Deep Strike with units in them, and ergo, units can enter in Outflanking transports. To me, the INTENT there is clear............

Ya know, I'm happy with this statement I guess. It isn't quite what I was after, but it's close. At least you are saying the INTENT now, instead of it being a clear hard and fast rule. I think it's cloudy at best, but the intent very well could be that it's perfectly legal. I have no problem with that, and am fine playing it the way most of you think the intent of it is. The INAT has already ruled in your favor.


I just wanted to point out that there is no RAW answer that supports either the DS in the Drop Pod, or the Outflank in the Vendetta. RAI, yes for sure on the Drop Pod, and I'm still 50/50 on the Vendetta.


Clay

This is one way of looking at it. Another way is that the RaW clearly states how vets may outflank in a vendetta, and you are interpreting them incorrectly.

It could be either, GW sucks at rule writing, but I personally believe it is the latter, as per my argument. The vendetta MAY outflank (as a scout unit), and the vets MUST come on with the vendetta if they are declared to be embarked during deployment (as per the BGB).

Hmmm. The rules just aren't as clear as you make them to be. So basically according to you, if I only break 1 of the 3 rules then it's all good no matter what I do? THat's opening up a whole new world of possibilities for the game......


Clay

Excellent. Since we all appear to be on more or less the same page now, I think this one can take a rest...