What would you do if this happened:

You are playing a game in a tournament.
You agree with your opponent that smashed multi story buildings are just ruins before the game.
During the game your opponents places models on the second story of a piece of ruin.
When you try to assault these models with an assault move he claims you are out of range as you have to measure "up" also.
You decide to ask a judge for a ruling.
When you come back with the ruling, your friend passes you a note that says:

"When you stepped away your opponent moved your models out of range."

?

I'd check myself and have check at first. If I knew I'd pick my models up and walk out. There is no need to waste my time with a stupid game like that let the guy have that win.

Tough call.

Part of me says to tell the judge but not in front of the cheating guy and let the judge come over and confront him.

Part of me says to make fun of the cheater as loud as possible (maybe calling him fat too for good measure).

Last part of me says to just keep playing the game and then have a talk afterwards with him and the judges so they can keep an eye on him.


Did this happen to you? What tournament?

Check that your models have actually been moved and if so call him on it.

Speaking as someone who hasn't attended a tournament since the late 90's, is it normal practice these days for one of the players to have to wander off in search of the judge? The events I played in, you usually called them to the table.

Call the judge for ruling to show him note and have freind explain what happened.

Smash his closest model with your first, then drop a $20 spot on the table as you laugh and walk off...

I'm jk of course. I would pack up my stuff, make a loud "cheater" comment and watch my buds play...

I'd be pissed.
I'd probably tell the judge.
Did this happen to you?

Im my last tournament my opponet tryed to show me my model "fit" into base by proceeding to grab one of my models and shove it into base knocking all the models over. Had the model not fit (and it didn't) we would have took first. Instead we ended up third. My approach, not playing in tournaments at that store anymore. Hard to argue when people you play with regularly are friends of said person.

Having encountered similar situations myself in several circumstances, I feel I am able to offer you some good advice.

Try to avoid making any direct eye contact with the other player. This is important.

Say NOTHING about the cheating. Document it if you can, but never confront him in person. Take pictures when he isn't looking or use a video camera if you can. It may be difficult to get a video recording without making him suspicious.

When you get home, post on the internet about it. The more forums and social sites the better. Include any photos or video recordings you took showing him cheating. Be sure to point out how you took the high road and didn't confront him and managed to beat him anyways.

The high road? Being a whiny internet vigilante in regard to toy soldiers is taking the high road?

Wow, times sure change.

@ Burger Rage

And as shown by the latest example of that approach, you also have to insist that the guys is doing "tons of cheating" without ever actually pointing out how he is cheating.

It also help to have a sketchy approach to the rules. It makes it a lot easier to accuse somebody of cheating if you yourself don't actually know the rules. This was also superbly demonstrated by the latest example.

Deciding what is and isn't the "right thing" isn't up to you in a tournament, it's up to the judge. If you measure your models' position and they were not where you remember leaving them and you have an eyewitness who's willing to vouch for you, you should certainly tell the judge. It's then up to him to determine who's right and who's wrong in this situation.

More important question: why didn't the onlooker just stop him?

Jack

Jackmojo wrote:More important question: why didn't the onlooker just stop him?

Jack

No balls.

What the hell...

Are the forums populated by spineless people? ><

If I got a note from my friend, it would be an instant "JUDGE! NEED YOUR HELP!" followed by "While I was looking for you for a judgment call, my opponent moved my models, and I have a witness that he's cheating."

If you pay money to participate in an event, don't let someone drive you out because they're cheating. You're rewarding their behavior. Get them booted out, and publicly shame them on the spot...loudly.

Really. Why didn't your friend just stop him and then when you got bac, tell you about it, loudly and in great detail, so that every table within 30' could hear him? Then call the judges over and do it again! Want to stop a cheater? Publicly embaress him whenever you catch him doing it.

The Question is, why didn't the judge come to you to evaluate the board situation?

As an experienced tourney judge, I'll answer that. He may not have known there was a problem. Don't know how large the tourney was or how many walking judges they had, but it's easy to not know about a problem or question until someone comes and tells you. All it takes is getting involved in a discussion on one side of the romm while the problem is one the other side (assauming one judge).

Steelmage99 wrote:

@ Burger Rage

And as shown by the latest example of that approach, you also have to insist that the guys is doing "tons of cheating" without ever actually pointing out how he is cheating.

It also help to have a sketchy approach to the rules. It makes it a lot easier to accuse somebody of cheating if you yourself don't actually know the rules. This was also superbly demonstrated by the latest example.

Link please

I like the part where the friend won't even SPEAK to you, he hands you a note instead.

You know... in case the other guy overhears him or something.

I think the best thing to have done would be to show the judge the note from your friend. If you wait until after the event or even that game is over it's probably too late other than discredit your opponent.

G

And how do you know the Friend wasn't just trying to create Dramaz?

Obviously, we don't.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

@ Burger Rage

And as shown by the latest example of that approach, you also have to insist that the guys is doing "tons of cheating" without ever actually pointing out how he is cheating.

It also help to have a sketchy approach to the rules. It makes it a lot easier to accuse somebody of cheating if you yourself don't actually know the rules. This was also superbly demonstrated by the latest example.

Link please

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/275468.page

Brother Ramses wrote:The high road? Being a whiny internet vigilante in regard to toy soldiers is taking the high road?

Wow, times sure change.

trolled.

Smash his closest model with your first, then drop a $20 spot on the table as you laugh and walk off...

Brilliant.

I'd try to have him removed from the tourney, even if it meant getting myself eliminated as well. It's not fair to other players to let him continue to play.

I mean, this isn't even subtle as mis-measuring, changing terrain from ruins to building, etc. It's pretty blatant. Heck, using loaded dice at least has some subtlety. Even moving his own models has a little more subtlety.

I would call him on it. Because before in regards to the assault, I would have called the assault, made the measurements. THEN the opponent would throw the 'climb up the levels' bit, go to a judge for the ruling, coming back if I found my models were moved I'd ask what the hell, as they were checked to be in range before hand. Now if he still persists that they weren't then I'd get the same judge over because he would have the prior knowledge of my asking about the movement in the ruins in regards to being in assault range. Long story short, don't take gak from people.

Dashofpepper wrote:What the hell...

Are the forums populated by spineless people? ><

If I got a note from my friend, it would be an instant "JUDGE! NEED YOUR HELP!" followed by "While I was looking for you for a judgment call, my opponent moved my models, and I have a witness that he's cheating."

If you pay money to participate in an event, don't let someone drive you out because they're cheating. You're rewarding their behavior. Get them booted out, and publicly shame them on the spot...loudly.

It does seem interesting. People here have no problem calling out RAW and RAI on people in the safety of the forums, but would not in a real life instance?

Dashofpepper wrote:What the hell...

Are the forums populated by spineless people? ><

If I got a note from my friend, it would be an instant "JUDGE! NEED YOUR HELP!" followed by "While I was looking for you for a judgment call, my opponent moved my models, and I have a witness that he's cheating."

If you pay money to participate in an event, don't let someone drive you out because they're cheating. You're rewarding their behavior. Get them booted out, and publicly shame them on the spot...loudly.

This.

don_mondo wrote:Really. Why didn't your friend just stop him and then when you got bac, tell you about it, loudly and in great detail, so that every table within 30' could hear him? Then call the judges over and do it again! Want to stop a cheater? Publicly embaress him whenever you catch him doing it.

And that.

Moving thread to Dakka Discussions.

CrazyThang wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:What the hell...

Are the forums populated by spineless people? ><

If I got a note from my friend, it would be an instant "JUDGE! NEED YOUR HELP!" followed by "While I was looking for you for a judgment call, my opponent moved my models, and I have a witness that he's cheating."

If you pay money to participate in an event, don't let someone drive you out because they're cheating. You're rewarding their behavior. Get them booted out, and publicly shame them on the spot...loudly.

This.

Concur.

Make loud noises, name and shame that gakker.
Cheating at a game of toy soldiers is the ultimate in chumptastic wankery.

Burger Rage wrote:I like the part where the friend won't even SPEAK to you, he hands you a note instead.

You know... in case the other guy overhears him or something.

Could the original poster point out the ages of the people involved?

I would agree with Burger that a direct confrontation is waranted in this case, but we may be talking about a 12 year old being intimidated by a 33 year old 250 pound man.

Just saying.

Ages involved and the type of tournment involved are important.

There is little toleration for flaggerant cheating at the GT level. If i've paid $50 for the event, likely I would not take the cheating lightly. Its always important to handle any rules, measuring, open dispute in a respectful manner. The difference of opinion can range from blatant cheating, to lack of knowledge of rules, to different opinion in rules. Your opponent may have differen experiences then you do.

For a local rogue trader or GW store event. I wouldn't be surprised to come back to the table to find my models moved. I would point it out to the judge that there appears to have been a jogging of the table. Still I'd poitn of the scenario, and if it gets down to a yes it was/ no it wasn't your pretty much out of luck. I'd offer to dice it off at that point as that point as its really not worth the frustration. Local events attract more Dbag's who cheat to win, just my experience.

As the original poster references a friend saw this occassion, I'd ask to bring them in to provide their example. At a GT, your looking at a likely disqualification in the round. At a RT/Local, your looking at a dice off. The real question comes down to comfort of the player. I've let some cheating examples slide over the years. The reason are usually decided by

1. is it worth it? if its a pick up game most time I truly do not care. I'll point out rule issues, but largely just move on as if i've got time for a pick up game i'm just happy to game.

2. Is this last round of a event, where neither myself/ opponent are largely affect? If so, i'll point it out to my opponent, offer to dice off an disagreement. Again, not worth the arguements, your into fun games at that point.

3. Top tables at a event that's GT, i'm going to ask my opponent to come with me to speak with the judge. If its a guy i've played before and i generally am comfortable going alone, i'll go get the judge myself. Most of the guys at GT's are web regulars. If he moved the models, then its picture time, and posting time. Lots of the club guys are hard on each other and their club mates for cheating. Its unlikely a club guy will want or need to cheat.

4. Last round at a local event. I commonly used to say "hey lets go ask the judge for their opinion, lets go together so we can each show our points of view." Its important for BOTH parties to have a say, no just one person describe the situation. Again though, local events if i'm actually in attendance, I usually offer to dice off if a judge is not readily available.

Whatever you do don't draw more attention then you need to the situation. It's a natural instinct to not upset the herd.

Some good solutions are passive aggression, fantasizing about physical violence or avoidance of confrontation.

Dashofpepper wrote:What the hell...

Are the forums populated by spineless people? ><

I'm going to go out on a limb and say... "No."

Dashofpepper wrote:

If I got a note from my friend, it would be an instant "JUDGE! NEED YOUR HELP!" followed by "While I was looking for you for a judgment call, my opponent moved my models, and I have a witness that he's cheating."

That's probably an OK way to handle it...

Im good at judging distances, so this is something I would take personaly and confront my opponent on the spot. If the judge wants to shush the event and ignore it, I will demand a refund and leave, but the room will know what happened.

At Adepticon a few years ago our team encountered a similar event. Our opponents moved their terminators away from our Greater Demon more than 6". It was evident. When my brother confronted them, they simply pulled out the tape measure and said"no it was 6"" The problem was that the GD was only 4" away after his massacre roll, so they moved over 8". To deal with it in our turn, we moved our GD back into range to charge. They protested to which I replied it was the same 6" as their Terminators had moved. At that point they knew we werent taking their crap and no more issues the rest of the game. And no dings on sportsmanship.

Did this really happen?

Yes

Ages of people involved?

Player was 30+, friend was 30+, opponent was 50+ (Physical intimidation wasn't an issue)

Was this a GT?

No, it was a local tournament, but there was an entry fee.

Why didn't the judge come to the table?

They were busy in other places.

Why didn't the 'friend' confront the guy?

Unknown.


Do these details change what anyone thinks, it seems the consensus was to expose the cheat? I'll ad this comment, the ruling went against the player, the judges said that going 'up' a level took 3 inches, which was their house rule for the terrain. This would have put the chargers out of range either way.

Consensus still stands. Thank you for sharing though. It helps people understand the issue (Where you're coming from). And it limits assumptions, which are usually wrong.

Standing up for yourself, saying "No, that is NOT where you were when I left" is the right thing to do.

It is a battle worth picking.

Dashofpepper wrote:What the hell...

Are the forums populated by spineless people? ><

If I got a note from my friend, it would be an instant "JUDGE! NEED YOUR HELP!" followed by "While I was looking for you for a judgment call, my opponent moved my models, and I have a witness that he's cheating."

If you pay money to participate in an event, don't let someone drive you out because they're cheating. You're rewarding their behavior. Get them booted out, and publicly shame them on the spot...loudly.

What helmet cat guy said

Well, for me it depends entirely on the situation..

If it were a tourney with no entry fee and it were early on I would simply pack my models silently and walk out without a word, tossing the note onto the table in plain view of my opponent as I walked out. This approach just seems very classy to me

If it were a real tournament that I paid for or was high up in I would get a judge and tell him that my models were moved, show him the note, and get my friend to tell him what happened. If the player who cheated were not disqualified or forced to forfeit the match at that point, I would leave the game whether it be by leaving the tourney all together or just forfeiting the match. I'm not about to let some kid go and screw with me and then keep playing him and give him the opportunity to do it again.


Now, none of this would matter because no friend of mine would sit there and watch someone cheat me. If my friend sat there and took that I would be pissed beyond all belief at him. I don't care if the opponent is a 300 pound MMA fighter, if I saw my pal getting cheated I would take it up with him before he got close to touching the models. And let's be honest; how many brawls have you seen break out at GW tourneys?

Edit: Just read the OP's new post. The fact that this 50 year old man tried to cheat is... well... pitiful. Considering what you just said, I would probably just go for telling the judge and getting this "friend" to tell what happened. Had this been some 16 year old punk kid it would be different

People need to keep in mind that at some tournaments outside interference in a game is strictly forbidden.

Spectators (if allowed at all) are not allowed neither to speak, nor call judges.

if I were you I'd suggest stick + nail + skull. I really just want to see a fight break out in a tournament. I'm weird that way.

If you argue loud enough the jerk will be revealed as a jerk.

Where I come from, cheating is an instant forfeit of the entire match.

In a tournament situation, you bet I'd blow him in. Especially when there's money involved, or prizes. And especially if someone was willing to vouch for me.

In a friendly game, well, I wouldn't have left the table, but cheating happens in these situations, too. If it was blatant, I'd call him on it. If it was subtle, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. But once I was sure he's cheating me, I would never play him again and tell him why.

I signed up for a game of 40K - not mind games.

Augustus wrote: the judges said that going 'up' a level took 3 inches, which was their house rule for the terrain.

That's the standard rule for ruins.

It may be different in more active areas, but around my parts if there is a large tourney with 30 or so people playing the owner of the FLGS is always the judge so he normally doesn't have much time to go from table to table. I've always had to go up to him and ask for a clarification or ruling. Its not his fault he can't watch the tables because he ends up being fairly overworked trying to compute results AND keep track of those people who do come up to him with questions/issues. When I play there the unspoken etiquette seems to be both players approach the judge, that way issues like that don't crop up.

Generally speaking in my scene the kinds of cheating that happens are people who measure behind the ruler then place the model ahead (the classic movement mistake) and it's normally done by newbie and very young (11 or 12 year old) players.

The worst circumstance I've heard of was a kid at a tourney a year ago who decided he was going to make it turn 5 instead of 3 so he could win by kill points and refused to back down on the issue. Again in this circumstance the kid was about 11 and although feelings were hurt we pretty much let it go. For now.

Steelmage99 wrote:People need to keep in mind that at some tournaments outside interference in a game is strictly forbidden.

Spectators (if allowed at all) are not allowed neither to speak, nor call judges.

Cheaters must love this system, since that way they have to fool only one person, as opposed to half a dozen. Hell, as long as their opponent doesn't realize it, they can flaunt their wankery in plain sight.

avantgarde wrote:Whatever you do don't draw more attention then you need to the situation. It's a natural instinct to not upset the herd.

Some good solutions are passive aggression, fantasizing about physical violence or avoidance of confrontation.

Gwar! wrote:And how do you know the Friend wasn't just trying to create Dramaz?

If you don't trust your friend over a guy you met in the past hour, you should probably get a new friend.

let's see, usual suspects with the trolls. a usual suspect advocating physical violence.

On Topic and easy way to avoid cheating at tournaments: Don't play in tournaments. Why? Tournament players cheat.

Pika_power wrote:

Gwar! wrote:And how do you know the Friend wasn't just trying to create Dramaz?

If you don't trust your friend over a guy you met in the past hour, you should probably get a new friend.

I would need friends to begin with.

Ok i cant comment on this as i dont play in the terniment sceane but i can say calling the guys out by shouting some smart ass remark will get you labled as TFG.
Dont get me wrong the guy is a @s$ if he did that

i do have a few tips for guys in clubs with younger member or members like me who take time to get to grips with the rules:

1. if some one asks rules questions try to rember who they are and what rule it was as in games later on test them about it.
2. If theres someone you know that has problems with rules (dosnet know them or is hazzy on them) fastist way round that is bend them rules while playing them.
3. this is to help them learn tell them you will bend rules (not brake them as thats bad) but dont tell them witch ones and also tell them to tell you which ones it is.

these apper to be the same thing trust me there not this is how my mate did it when i was learning and this is what we do at the club i go to every so offten and it has worked.

the main thing about the game is to have fun.

I hate cheaters they are on off my pet hates (personal reasons most of you can gusse) and sadly it spills in to one off the things i enjoy the most.

well any way peace out

Pete

Augustus wrote:When you come back with the ruling, your friend passes you a note that says:

"When you stepped away your opponent moved your models out of range."

I alert the TO, and ask for him to DQ my opponent for blatant cheating.

I'd probably ask my friend why the they're passing me notes instead of pointing out the cheater directly and openly.

After that, I'm not sure. I'd probably drift between two options depending on my mood. I'd either:
A) call a judge and inform them of the cheating and present my friend as a witness and ask for them to remove the offender from the tournament. Because someone attemption to cheat me usally is more upsetting that whether or not they got away with it.
B) win the game handidly and then ignore the situation. Because the best revenge is living well.

Howlingmoon wrote:let's see, usual suspects with the trolls. a usual suspect advocating physical violence.

On Topic and easy way to avoid cheating at tournaments: Don't play in tournaments. Why? Tournament players cheat.

Wow. What a shallow point of view.

I am glad you don't play in tournaments.

If I were at a tournament without an entry fee, more like a day of back-to-back games, then I would probably not sweat it too much. It usually isn't worth it unless substantial prizes are involved, and the guy is obviously just being a douche. But as the father of 2, if you are wasting my entrance fee (read: my money) by cheating me, then I will call each and every instance, loudly if possible.

<FRIDAY QUOTE>
"Messin wit my money is like messin wit my emotions!" -Big Worm to Smokey
</FRIDAY QUOTE>

Anyway, in the particular instance described, I definitely would need more information there. The questions that would have to be answered:

1) Why the friend didn't just say it
2) Would the friend be willing to vouch to a judge
3) Even if he would, it would be his word against the opponents, so was there another way to prove he had moved them?
4) How many judges were there, and why did the player have to leave the table to find one?

All and all, it just sounds like the player should stand up for himself. He paid an entrance fee, and deserves a fair chance. Cheating of any kind (meaning WILLFULLY deceiving or modifying the game/rules/situation for an advantage) should be met with the utmost retribution.

I have actually been avoiding this post for a bit since I do not do tournaments. I plan on attending my first 'Ard boys in May, so I thought again and checked this out. Well...some of you would be a kick to see in this situation.

In any game or age situation, the easiest thing to do is confront the player. I did security for 5 or so years at a Casino, many people will talk out the situation when presented with the facts. I do not mean yelling CHEATER or be rude about it. A simple, "I thought my models were here..." would have been enough to start off the process.

In the actual instance the ruins add 3 inches to go up a level, the older player should not have moved the models, especially when his opponent left. He cold have pointed it out to the player the ruling on going up a level. The situation could have been handled the same way there, and probably had the same outcome with out anyone feeling like something wrong had happened.


We have a guy who tries to move his models 8 or 9 inches on a regular basis. I called him on it many times when I played him, as did many other players at the store I frequent. He kept doing it over the course of a few weeks. It is pretty tough for him to pick up games now.

I personally had this same problem J-Roc77 had, though on the bad side of it, This guy I played tried to cheat every game he could possibly do, he would move extra inch so on so on, well a few weeks down the road, I was forced to play him, His first move onto the board, I gladly helped by coming to his side of the board And re-measuring with my metal tape. Well he did not like that very well so his turn came back up and he moves his 12 inch movement tank forward then moved almost to its center.. with a squad, I was like oh really hold on re do that, I scratched my head this GW tape of his just said his tank moved 12 yet his troops move 6 and it looks like 9? so 3rd turn rolls around and my friend borrowed my tape and I use this guy... then I realized it how he has been winning the other rounds, this guy has been using a GW cloth tape which Stretches very easily over usage I couldn't believe how dumb duh the dude warms it up when its my turn to get a extra few centimeters then pulls the plastic just enough to cause a half inch .. so I called the judge he said nothing he can do cept make him use a different one.. so I thought oh that's complete bull... now.. I'm not one to destroy other peoples things.. but 5th turn comes around and this guy assaults 7 inches I redid it for him and he starts a argument and ding time.. .. he won.. nothing i could do.. cept... I pulled the button lose on his tape and it snapped hard causing the head to come flying off broken and I laughed as it spinned in side broken forcing him to borrow a metal one, he got mad and what was even better for first and second my friend his first turn took the tape and did the same thing that i did forcing the guy to use metal but what was worse he was checking the open staging area and when it snapped it flung the dudes marine off the table and broke his arm and he got mad and so far in 4 weeks I have yet to see him come back.

now Like I said I am not one to ruin other people's things but paying 20$ to enter and get screwed from a cheater and knowing you should be playing someone else the whole time, I think he deserved it and sometimes karma hits and poor marines get shot down...

Wow, run-on much? That is a wall of text that is hard for me to read, but I did get the part about the cloth tape out of it. That is just downright dirty playing, the same as having loaded dice in my book.

Hm. The scenario as posted surprises me; I've never been to a GW game tournament, but I used to be a major MtG player, and I figured it would be similar.

In MtG tournaments, it is standard, every round, to hear a loud cry of "Judge!" and one (or two) player's hand go up.

The judge comes on over, resolves the issue, and play continues. Neither player leaves their seat unless necessary for any reason, and definitely not until the judge has seen the board position. That way, if anything does happen, the judge will see it's happened.

Once - exactly once - has this not been the case, in my experience or that of anyone else I've spoken to. Annoyingly it happened to me - I had to call a judge when playing in the basement of a two-storey area. After three attempts without moving, I eventually (and begrudgingly) left my seat to seek a judge. Lo and behold, when I return my opponent has changed the board position, subtly, but enough to make it that he doesn't lose a game he should have lost.

That venue never held an official tournament again.

If things work differently in wargaming tounaments, I wouldn't be comfortable playing in them. Quite aside from the possibility of theft (because it's such as small possibility) how easy would it be for an opponent to remove one or two models and add them to your casualties while you're away? Most players can't tell the difference between fifteen and seventeen Orks at a glance unless there's an obvious difference in formation, after all.

Funny how this thread wouldn't of happened if you had stayed next to the table. Just saying.

Tell it to the judge immediately, and if it does not get him disqualified
pack up my stuff and go pyro on a plastic model that seems valuable.

Depopulate the room

Make a skull throne.

You are the winner.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deff Rider Warboss wrote:Funny how this thread wouldn't of happened if you had stayed next to the table. Just saying.

Thats like saying you got robbed cause you left your house not because someone decided to rob you.

Shaman wrote:Depopulate the room

Make a skull throne.

You are the winner.

Nobody wins when they side with Chaos!

Thats like saying you got robbed cause you left your house not because someone decided to rob you.

Deff Rider Warboss wrote:Thats like saying you got robbed cause you left your house not because someone decided to rob you.

Cheaters rarely work their craft while opponect is staring at them.

Although we could always just take the highroad and say it was the terrains fault xD

You're suposed to do this OP.


"Hey! HEY! The cheeto infested lumps of flesh you call hands did NOT just touch my stuff! Do you have any idea how hard it will be to get your stench off of them? Now they're going to be cursed with your bad luck forever, and do you know what that means? It means that they're going to spend the rest of their life living in the lower foam tray of my case and hanging around the local school creeping out all the parents because they want to argue about how the new Spiderman sucks with all the eight year olds in the playground. And if they somehow agree with them to make them shut up about the old Spiderman they'll lure them back to the Rhino with candy and Uno."

I know a lot of people have said this but I'd totally just be an ass to the guy the rest of the game. I'd only move my figures 5 inches for move and 5 inches for assault. Every time I'd say something like. I'm gonna only move these 5 inches b/c I don't want you to go to HELL for being a cheater. Or. just casually in disbelief say.. "wow, is it really that small? So small you have to cheat at games with little army men to make you feel better about what you are doing? Or.... I need a drink, since I don't want you touching my well painted figures is there anything that you'd like me to move further away or just take off the board. Or hey... I've got 10 guys taking a shot at you and 6 hit. Let's just say you automatically made your saves, no need to not show me your dice.

It would be Brutal for him the rest of the game.

It would either be that approach or make him show me every rule in the book that he intends to use, challenge him, make him look stuff up...even if I know he is correct.

Wow. After reading this thread it has finally become apparent why so many people are in favor of soft scores. Its because most gamers don't have the balls to call out a cheater...Instead they would rather give him a 0 in sports scores so he can avoid confrontation.

Seriously, if someone is cheating call them on it. I don't know what else to tell you. Its not fair to you if you don't and its not fair to anyone else at the event. Because they are changing the outcome of it.

Considering that half the people at my local shop still quote 4th ed rules, I have no problem calling them out, even if its not my game. If they are cheating, they are cheating (even if they don't know it) There is no reason not to call them out on it. No, it doesn't need to be happening to me for me to say something...

Seriously, no wonder why people still cheat at events. There is almost no downside for it because apparently most WAR gamers are spineless...

CptZach wrote:Wow. After reading this thread it has finally become apparent why so many people are in favor of soft scores. Its because most gamers don't have the balls to call out a cheater...Instead they would rather give him a 0 in sports scores so he can avoid confrontation.

Seriously, if someone is cheating call them on it. I don't know what else to tell you. Its not fair to you if you don't and its not fair to anyone else at the event. Because they are changing the outcome of it.

Considering that half the people at my local shop still quote 4th ed rules, I have no problem calling them out, even if its not my game. If they are cheating, they are cheating (even if they don't know it) There is no reason not to call them out on it. No, it doesn't need to be happening to me for me to say something...

Seriously, no wonder why people still cheat at events. There is almost no downside for it because apparently most WAR gamers are spineless...

You can be wrong about a rule, or misquote a rule without being a cheater. Cheater implies intent.

I freely admit to forgetting rules or getting a rule confused with another game system (thinking of an EPIC rule for 40K that sort of thing) for general gaming, and have likely done so for tournaments in the past. but the simple answer is look the rule up-voila done. If its an ambiguous rule then go with house convention, go with the TO (if in a tourney) or agree to an interpretation and check it out later.

Having said that, if you make the mistake of calling me a cheater to my face then we are going to have a personal problem-fast. You've taken it out of good faith mistakes and into personal behavior. You'd better be 100% right but still be able to move quickly, because its not going to end well.

CptZach wrote:Wow. After reading this thread it has finally become apparent why so many people are in favor of soft scores. Its because most gamers don't have the balls to call out a cheater...Instead they would rather give him a 0 in sports scores so he can avoid confrontation.

Most human beings without some kind of authority avoid confrontation. They've even done studies of this sort of thing, by butting into queues with either flimsy pretenses or none at all, and most of their victims did nothing. To single out confrontation avoidance as merely a trait of dickless gamers (in whose number I presume you do not include your hallowed self) is merely a transparent attempt to appear stronger by comparison, to say "I'm better than these people", either explicitly or implicitly.

And so's this post, as it turns out. Recursion, choombas.

Actually there are plenty of definitions of cheating that do not imply intent.

Besides your arguing word schematics. You completely ignored my entire post, picked out 1 part you didn't like and attempted to imply that because of that my entire post is incorrect.

Sorry, but its not.

If it makes you feel any better. I will use "cheater" for any situation that has intent behind it. And "clueless" for any situation where it is just lack of rules knowledge.

CptZach wrote:Actually there are plenty of definitions of cheating that do not imply intent.

Besides your arguing word schematics. You completely ignored my entire post, picked out 1 part you didn't like and attempted to imply that because of that my entire post is incorrect.

Sorry, but its not.

If it makes you feel any better. I will use "cheater" for any situation that has intent behind it. And "clueless" for any situation where it is just lack of rules knowledge.

No I didn't ignore your post. I find it lacks merit.
Your self definition of cheating is incorrect. Further, it would not save you if you said that to me, or most people I know.
I'm not arguing semantics. I'm making the plain statement that accusing people of cheating without intent is an excellent way to get hurt. I highly, highly doubt you are so brave in the real world.

I obviously don't call anyone a cheater unless there is purposeful intent. I do call people on their rules mistakes though. (again, our definitions differ so lets just ignore that part of it)

And you think my entire post lacks merit because our definitions of cheating differ? I already conceded that point and said I would use the term "clueless" for someone who breaks the rules without intent.

Yea pretty much.

There is almost no downside for it because apparently most WAR gamers are spineless...

Andy why the needless addition of "clueless?" You do understand there's social interaction going on in gaming right? Do you going into gaming with that mentality?

Deff Rider Warboss wrote:Thats like saying you got robbed cause you left your house not because someone decided to rob you.

someone wrote:Cheaters rarely work their craft while opponect is staring at them.

Although we could always just take the highroad and say it was the terrains fault xD

I don't accept that cheating is anything other than the cheat's fault.

Because I want to have a fun time playing my game of toy soldiers, I'm probably not going to call my opponent a douche for intentionally bending the rules... but I would check the rule and make sure we played it right, and if they did it often enough, just not play them again.

Sometimes I'll let things slide for the sake of time or enjoyment, or because I'm not sure of the rule myself and don't have time to look it up.

But I definitely go home and check on the rule, so that the next time the situation arises, I can have the correct rule ready so that we can play it right!

One thing not to do is finish the game and then say something about it. Having hosted and judged several 100+ gaming tournaments I can tell you it is impossible for a judge or organizer to make a choice after the game is done.

It all boils down to trust. If you can see the situation, have evidence, and call attention to it immediatly then it makes the choice easy and takes "your word vs his" out of the situation.

I would have called for a judge, showed him the note, asked the other player to talk to the judge. 99% of the time if you take that stance either he would be booted or you would have been awarded a score based on the setting of the board.

I would also like to point out that it is hard being a judge when it comes to issues of cheating. So ... be nice!

Frazzled wrote:
No I didn't ignore your post. I find it lacks merit.
Your self definition of cheating is incorrect. Further, it would not save you if you said that to me, or most people I know.
I'm not arguing semantics. I'm making the plain statement that accusing people of cheating without intent is an excellent way to get hurt. I highly, highly doubt you are so brave in the real world.

An excellent way to get hurt? Why all the violence, if I was falsely accused of cheating I would calmly explain to the other player how what I did was not cheating and even re-do the action (assuming it was a simple move etc.) if they really wanted me to. No need to go off the handle and punch someone for not trusting you. If they did it a lot I would simply finish the game and not play against them again. Building trust is important and as soon as you prove to the person that they can trust you they shouldn't accuse you again (in less of course you do cheat). If someone started to get violent with me I would immediatly pack up and leave or (if I paid to play) inform a judge that a player is getting violent and should be removed/talked to. If that was a joke then I apologize but the point as a whole still stands

And I would definitly confront a cheater but not in the "HEY YOUR CHEATING!!!!" at the top of my lungs kind of way. This tactic automatically sets people on edge due to embarressement and the fact that they were caught so they are naturally going to be defensive. If you calmly say: "Hey, I'm back from the judge. Oh, my models appear to have moved mind if I move them back?" that just might work. If you have an adamant cheater... well maybe not. But in all reality he moved his plastic men a bit further than they should move and rolled one more dice for his imaginary pewpew so... yeah... game and such.

OMG! something intelligent was posted on the internet!

Its the end of the world!!!

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:If I were at a tournament without an entry fee, more like a day of back-to-back games, then I would probably not sweat it too much. It usually isn't worth it unless substantial prizes are involved, and the guy is obviously just being a douche. But as the father of 2, if you are wasting my entrance fee (read: my money) by cheating me, then I will call each and every instance, loudly if possible.

I have to strongly disagree here.

Wrongness is *always* worth correcting.

There is a line drawn between right and wrong - the stakes involved in the action that is right/wrong don't matter, only the action itself. Whether in a friendly game or in a tournament for cash, cheating is cheating and must not be tolerated.

In my last tournament, I played a guy who cheated throughout the game (some of which I didn't realize until after the game when I went and read his codex again). I don't know if some of it was intentional, but rolling a 3 for a run movement, and then moving 6", is DEFINITELY cheating. Movement shenigans are the most obvious, but an extra attack in close combat could be an honest mistake.

I think that there are "soft cheaters" out there, who will always admit fault and undo their "mistake". These are the ones who are nigh impossible to call out, and they're probably the most common.

I'd say feck it, put away my models, walk away, walk back, tell him some smart arse thing about himself, walk away, go home, post on dakka to let my hate go away, eat and then sleep.

Augustus wrote:What would you do if this happened:

You are playing a game in a tournament.
You agree with your opponent that smashed multi story buildings are just ruins before the game.
During the game your opponents places models on the second story of a piece of ruin.
When you try to assault these models with an assault move he claims you are out of range as you have to measure "up" also.
You decide to ask a judge for a ruling.
When you come back with the ruling, your friend passes you a note that says:

"When you stepped away your opponent moved your models out of range."

?

1. Slap your friend for being a complete moron and not stopping him.

2. Tell him to his face you are giving him zero points for army composition and sportsmanship.

3. Continue to laugh your ass off while you measure to his models from the one he moved and then charge in anyway even if he really did move them out of range.

4. Laugh in his face when he tells you they were out of range and never reply with anything else other than "No, they were in range. I just measured it before moving them."


And last but not least "accidently" ,while moving into hand to hand combat, stumble a little and catch yourself by placing your hand, palm down, on his nicest looking model. Feel free to grind it into the table while regaining your balance. Then pick up all the pieces and say "Geez mister I'm awful sorry about that. I have some extra glue if you need it."

5. Get punched in face for deliberately breaking someones models.

Ah, the joys of internet tough guys.....

See my previous post lol... I <3 how tough people act on this here internets.

CrazyThang wrote:See my previous post lol... I <3 how tough people act on this here internets.

Indeed.

The ones who talk are the ones who never do anything. I've packed up my models and left a tournament just once. I regret doing it afterwards; I probably would have won and should have stuck around. I don't think violence is called for on the table barring extenuating circumstances. I've only gotten physical once, but that was because he threatened my wife. Nothing in a game justifies violence; calling a TO over - definitely. Getting someone banned from the store - also worthwhile.

I got one to add to this: what do you do if you find out your best friend is cheating and most of your game store knew it. I'm trying to figure out how to approach this matter in telling him to back off on the shenanigans yet I don't want to upset him and I got it in my head some major argument will happen.

I kind of blame myself as in my group's friendly games we let alot of crap slide as we sometimes play more akin to how it makes sense according to fluff, IE Deffrolla BEFORE the FAQ and other obscure things like making living ammo reroll armor pen as we didn't care whether or not it's what the rules said, we figured 'hey, acidic worms eating through the armor of the tank, why not?' Now granted I would adopt a stern approach come casual play outside the group and tournaments but unfortunately my friend seems to have been thinking otherwise. He tried to use living ammo on a vehicle, it was ruled he could not, ok fine THEN he tried it again next week's league game. Also I'm hearing how he palms dice when he rolls with one hand then rolls to wound with the other, already having a few dice in them apparently, how he moves from the edge of the model to the middle, adding an inch or two, etc etc.

I've discussed this with my other friends in the group but atm they can't help as they are out of state for college so it's up to me to tell him face to face, as I'd rather not bitch out using a messaging program. Just looking to see what some people would do if given my scenario.

Ketara wrote:5. Get punched in face for deliberately breaking someones models.

Ah, the joys of internet tough guys.....

Is internet tough guy anything like internet humorless guy? Maybe you should relax a little and go with the humor a little Remember caffeine is not your friend.......


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kurgash wrote:I got one to add to this: what do you do if you find out your best friend is cheating and most of your game store knew it. .

Just tell him to stop? If you are really best friends it really shouldn't be a problem.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:

Shaman wrote:Depopulate the room

Make a skull throne.

You are the winner.

Nobody wins when they side with Chaos!

Wrong!
When Chaos wins I win!

brettz123 wrote:

Ketara wrote:5. Get punched in face for deliberately breaking someones models.

Ah, the joys of internet tough guys.....

Is internet tough guy anything like internet humorless guy? Maybe you should relax a little and go with the humor a little Remember caffeine is not your friend.......


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kurgash wrote:I got one to add to this: what do you do if you find out your best friend is cheating and most of your game store knew it. .

Just tell him to stop? If you are really best friends it really shouldn't be a problem.

But I love being internet humorless guy Nah I only say stuff like that (as in my response not kets :p ) when it is pretty obvious it is not a joke. Or more accurately when it doesn't seem to be a joke. Namely when a lot of people repeat it with no lols to soften it.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:What the hell...

Are the forums populated by spineless people? ><

If I got a note from my friend, it would be an instant "JUDGE! NEED YOUR HELP!" followed by "While I was looking for you for a judgment call, my opponent moved my models, and I have a witness that he's cheating."

If you pay money to participate in an event, don't let someone drive you out because they're cheating. You're rewarding their behavior. Get them booted out, and publicly shame them on the spot...loudly.

It does seem interesting. People here have no problem calling out RAW and RAI on people in the safety of the forums, but would not in a real life instance?

Probably afraid he was going to have to play the guy in a later round and didn't want to get tanked on sportsmanship or similar...

brettz123 wrote:

Ketara wrote:5. Get punched in face for deliberately breaking someones models.

Ah, the joys of internet tough guys.....

Is internet tough guy anything like internet humorless guy? Maybe you should relax a little and go with the humor a little Remember caffeine is not your friend.......


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kurgash wrote:I got one to add to this: what do you do if you find out your best friend is cheating and most of your game store knew it. .

Just tell him to stop? If you are really best friends it really shouldn't be a problem.

You mean you were joking? Damn that deadpan is good. We get so many internet tough guys around here, I thought you were serious.

I would like to think sometimes pitty and compassion might play a role in a decision.

I certainly recognize the justice issue with letting cheaters get away with things, but...

It's a game of little plastic men at the end of the day?

EDIT:

I actually had a problem with a friend cheating.

What was really happening was different rules interpretations. RAW vs RAI, codex vs core book, order of operations, literal interpretation and things like that. Actually he and I had completely different ideas on how some things worked at several points in the rules, we actually talked about it, and believe it or not posted the situations in a public forum afterward to see what people thought. Sometimes people agreed with me, and sometimes with him. Sometimes we came to a common concensus and sometimes we didn't.

It was actually pretty fun to use YMDC for that here on dakka, and hash it out with others over dinner.

No violence ever happened, but I did tell him to shut up a few times when he tried to jump into my game and tell me and my opponent what we were playing wrong.

No smashed minis either... Ha ha ha.

Ketara wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

Ketara wrote:5. Get punched in face for deliberately breaking someones models.

Ah, the joys of internet tough guys.....

Is internet tough guy anything like internet humorless guy? Maybe you should relax a little and go with the humor a little Remember caffeine is not your friend.......


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kurgash wrote:I got one to add to this: what do you do if you find out your best friend is cheating and most of your game store knew it. .

Just tell him to stop? If you are really best friends it really shouldn't be a problem.

You mean you were joking? Damn that deadpan is good. We get so many internet tough guys around here, I thought you were serious.

I thought the over the top nature of the post was a little obvious. Well I laughed when I wrote it

Lol. Point being some people still act like that

Couple of things:

If I saw another player moving another player's models while the player was away from the table I'd wait for the other player to come back, ask him if he wanted his models moved and then if he said no I'd call a judge over.

If one of my gaming buddies said that this happens to me while I was gone (never left a table mid game in a tournament though), I'd call over a judge, have my friend describe what happened, and then tell the judge that I don't play against people who show this kind of behavior.

Second, unless everyone I play is playing it wrong in order to move up or down a level in ruins we need a 3" move per level. This is the way the BRB says it

asugradinwa wrote:Second, unless everyone I play is playing it wrong in order to move up or down a level in ruins we need a 3" move per level. This is the way the BRB says it

You are playing it right. Levels in ruins are always 3" apart for the purposes of moving between them.

Thanks Gwar!

If only I had a Gwar to pull out of my pocket every time a rules dispute came up during tournaments!

asugradinwa wrote:Thanks Gwar!

If only I had a Gwar to pull out of my pocket every time a rules dispute came up during tournaments!

I do have skype ya know, and I am soon to get a speshul phone exclusively for rules questions

Or ya know... you could have a rulebook Not discounting Gwar!'s handiness, just sayin' is all.

I do have a rulebook, but Gwar is better

For absolutly no holds barred RAW then I suppose they are equal. (I mean Gwar! knows the rules... the book contains the rules... the main convinience being Gwar! can [probably] talk )

I'm starting to suspect Gwar is some kind of mutated rulebook with a mouth, that ran away from GW HQ after being abused by Jervis.

Image removed due to profanity. - Lorek

Out of curiosity what did the judge say? is going up floors in ruins the same as buildings? I know this issue has come up before for me and my friends so that we usually just treat it all as buildings for simplicity's sake.

You equate ruins with buildings?