Just thought I'd start something up about owners pushing the sale of miniatures at the store. I have heard of owners/employees who will actually make it mandatory that you spend x money every x days at their store to be able to use the store to play or whatever. However, I have also know people who have never spent a dollar at the store and the owner doesn't really mind.

My store I think is good with this. The owner jokes about it all the time ("Well you know, a thing of Ultramarine blue would go great with that... WOW! There's one right over there for just four dollars!") but never really pushes anything. I also think I've caught onto a sly little trick of his; ever since I started going to this particular store his tau inventory seems to have tripled, and it follows what my army seems to need. I say "man, I wish I had another broadside" and guess what shows up on the shelf the next day. My army is lacking a devilfish and suddenly 2 appear a few days later

So what about you guys? How does your store push sales if at all and where do you think the "line" is? To me the above is fine and all in good-nature, so I don't mind. Plus, now I've got a huge selection to choose from

Also, I find myself buying more now from my local store because I like the people and the owner and such. I can find most of it usually online for cheaper but I spend a few extra bucks at the store to get it simply because I figure I'm in the guys store, mine as well buy from him instead. If they don't have something I even usually ask him to order it so I can pick it up when it gets there. Does anyone else do this?

I absolutely pay where I play. Sometimes I order bits, and I definitely do a lot of trading. But I usually spend a good amount of cash. I think the key is for the store to be aware of what the customers want (like yourself) and they really need to be able to match or come close to some of the online market prices. I think buy 3 get 1 free is an excellent idea.

I also pay where I play. My store takes care of me, so I try my best to support them. It's a vicious circle that keeps repeating.

I usually buy small dollar amount items that are not worth shipping individually like specific paints or tools. And my paint orders are usually pretty large.

Unfortunately my LGS doesn't offer any real discounts on GW product, and I have a connection that gets me stuff at cost.

If they offered even 20% off then I would likely buy alot more from them as far as models.

Sabol trays are another item that I buy from them if I'm not buying enough online at once for shipping to be less than the discount I'm getting.

Fiercegoldfish wrote:JI also think I've caught onto a sly little trick of his; ever since I started going to this particular store his tau inventory seems to have tripled, and it follows what my army seems to need. I say "man, I wish I had another broadside" and guess what shows up on the shelf the next day. My army is lacking a devilfish and suddenly 2 appear a few days later

More power to him for being attentive as to the needs of his customers Cant blame the guy.

Just depends what I need at the time. None of the FLGS I've ever been at have a good bitz selection, and I tend to use alot of bitz, so I generally do alot of orders through the Warstore, but that's also because they've been so good to me in the past few months.

I do try to support where I play though. I'm still sort of mucking with my list, and every once and a while I'll get fed up with a unit that doesn't pull its weight and/or realize what an awesome replacement might be. When this happens I'll generally buy it that night. Also, i get inspiration sometimes, and if I can't wait, I'll head to my FLGS to get what I need. Happened with getting a Battlefoam case the other night. I needed one to ship my models to California in, but I didn't have enough time to wait for one to be shipped to me. Just so happened my FLGS had some in stock.

Other than that, yeah. I'll pick up the small things. Paint jars, glue, brushes.

Flachzange wrote:

Fiercegoldfish wrote:JI also think I've caught onto a sly little trick of his; ever since I started going to this particular store his tau inventory seems to have tripled, and it follows what my army seems to need. I say "man, I wish I had another broadside" and guess what shows up on the shelf the next day. My army is lacking a devilfish and suddenly 2 appear a few days later

More power to him for being attentive as to the needs of his customers Cant blame the guy.

Yeah. That sounds like good customer service to me.

I buy almost everything from my FLGS. With the exception of store credit on Warstore and Paypal money on eBay; I pretty much only buy from my FLGS. Yesterday I picked up a box of 10 Guardsmen just because! I wasn't pressured into buying anything - just felt the need for guardsmen for whatever reason.

My local store is a real hole in the wall, so anything I can do to stew up attention or support the store is really appreciated. Besides, I get a solid discount so it's not like I'd get stuff cheaper from anywhere else.

Yeah... my store offers a base 15% discount... 20% if you go above $100 and 25% if you go above $500. Couple that with them letting me and my friends occasionally stay after closing to finish up games and whatnot and yeah... I have no reason to buy from anywhere else.

Having seen the retail situation from all angles (GW trade sales, GW retail, Independent retail), I would say it's imperative to contribute to your FLGS. I saw the same downward spiral over and over when I was in trade sales: new store opens, full of promise; things go well, initial stock sells; newness wears off, sales taper; owners panic, offer big discounts on marquee ranges like GW; store stops making money, can't pay rent, closes. I saw that happen in no more than 3 months in one case verbatim from start to finish. The model of an FLGS is so different from even a sales-focused GW store; especially if they provide gaming space... It has to have the support of the people that game there, or it will fail.

At my store we don't really push sales, so to speak; when someone comes in and starts talking about how they can get something cheaper online, my usual response is a shrug followed by "go for it". Our regulars all get it; that if they want to have their awesome free game space complete with bins and bins of custom terrain, plenty of open-copy games to just sit and play, counter time and shop talk with staff on tap, a painting space, a great bitz bin to dig through, air-conditioning, a large community of gamers (many of whom will come out at random times and on short-notice for a game), and rolling reclining leather office chairs to sit in while they play... they should buy something once in a while.

To a bit, first I add one caveat to the above: candy and soda don't count toward the whole 'buy something once in a while' thing! Second, if you have an awesome back-door hookup for deals on product, good job. I mean that sincerely; since I'm the same. I paid retail for one model, once: an old metal chaos terminator lord from GW Glendale in like 1999-2000. All I ask is that you keep it to yourself while you're in the store. That guy holding a box of tactical marines doesn't have your hookup, and unless you're going to deal him in on it, shut up about it! Standing there gushing about how great of a deal you get and how only chumps pay retail only accomplishes the goal of making that guy feel like a chump, which will preclude him from buying that box of marines so as not to exhibit his new-found chumpitude, which kills my sale and makes me really not like you. Finally, don't ask me for a discount. I don't come to your house to hang out, then take the remote, turn the TV to what I want to watch, and ask you to make me a sandwich, too. Fully half of our space is given over to a free open gaming area, and we have to pay rent on that.

Ok, over.

-Dis.

disdainful wrote: Finally, don't ask me for a discount. I don't come to your house to hang out, then take the remote, turn the TV to what I want to watch, and ask you to make me a sandwich, too. Fully half of our space is given over to a free open gaming area, and we have to pay rent on that.

-Dis.

Don't you feel you may actually miss out on sales, because you aren't offering one? Some sort of special, to prevent customers from purchasing everything online at 20% off? I figured it would be worth it, considering most people would rather have product in hand and save on the shipping. I realize your arguments (and I'm not trying to start one) I'm sincerely curious. If it were me with the retail space, I would probably try and match that 20% in the hopes that people actually would travel to my shop. Of course, that's basing the general economic strategy of more sales at a lesser price.

I do my buying in both my FLGS and online. I like the owners of the gaming store I frequent, they are players too. Great guys, they offer 25% off of every 11th purchase. No other discounts, I do go out of my way to buy paint, brushes, green stuff, odds and ends there. The same distance away are 2 more stores that offer 10% off of all GW items as well, but I go there instead. They are never pushy, that is why I quit going to one store down the street. The one down the street looked at me like a wallet. One of their kids works there,and when buying stuff once he stated his dad asked him to point out the new MTG decks to me since they knew I had money.

As far as internet buying, I have swung a few e-bay items cheap, just stay low and sometimes no one else bids on it. I do not expect any store I frequent to match internet prices.

Hobby stores have it tough most of the time, and the profit margin on models needs to be more than people think. Its not like your orks get worn out and have to buy new ones every month. Many of these internet stores have incredibly low overhead. Selling out of their garage, no employees or extra power/water bills to pay.

Bless you FierceGoldFish, and the rest of you, for caring about your local game stores! My FLGS pays for use of the mall conference rooms every monday and holds a big all day gaming event every several months. That's expensive, and we want to support them through sales for all the great things they do for us. They even have boxes and boxes of store owned terrain we can use! The store manager is always willing to special order what I need, and occasionally gives me a discount. It's okay when he doesn't 'cause it means the store is getting a fair share of the purchase cost Frankly, if all the locals mail ordered most or all of their 40K and Warhammer, the store would go out of business and we'd have no place to play or even just hang out with the employees for an afternoon of talking hobby. So in the long run, buying local pays off big!

Emperor bless and cherish you!
Frankie

Dez wrote:

disdainful wrote: Finally, don't ask me for a discount. I don't come to your house to hang out, then take the remote, turn the TV to what I want to watch, and ask you to make me a sandwich, too. Fully half of our space is given over to a free open gaming area, and we have to pay rent on that.

-Dis.

Don't you feel you may actually miss out on sales, because you aren't offering one? Some sort of special, to prevent customers from purchasing everything online at 20% off? I figured it would be worth it, considering most people would rather have product in hand and save on the shipping. I realize your arguments (and I'm not trying to start one) I'm sincerely curious. If it were me with the retail space, I would probably try and match that 20% in the hopes that people actually would travel to my shop. Of course, that's basing the general economic strategy of more sales at a lesser price.

It doesn't necessarily follow that customers would buy more product though or that extra customers would come in. If you reduce your selling price by 20% how much do you think you have to increase sales volume by to keep existing profit margins?

It's a lot!

You cannot rely on hope, as it doesn't pay the bills.

Discounting works for some stores and not for others.

Gornall wrote:Yeah... my store offers a base 15% discount... 20% if you go above $100 and 25% if you go above $500. Couple that with them letting me and my friends occasionally stay after closing to finish up games and whatnot and yeah... I have no reason to buy from anywhere else.

If my store did this, I'd purchase from them.

I usually by my armies all at once, so I buy online. Yeah I should buy in-store, but I don't. So whatever. Paint and glue is all I buy. Until then, I'll wait for a store than knows what to do and do it right.

[EDIT] Oh yeah, one thing that pisses me off, is the food prices they have for stores. They're outrageous. I never see then sell, other than the employees taking them at cost, or the owner not paying at all.

I knew one store that did it right, 16 oz cans of soda for a buck. That's how it should be. Tacking on 15% to the price is just an insult. I'll go get a sandwiche, thank you very much.

I don't game at a local store, haven't in over 7 years.

I used to, and I would buy my gaming stuff there because it was a great store. It wasn't an $xx in yy months or no play though - or I'd never have got a game in.

All about the symbiosis. The gamer needs to support their local store, and the local store needs to give the local gamer a reason to come in.

Free gaming space isn't always enough, as most stores have this. Store Owner needs to take an interest in whats going on, either hosting or running a range of events to bring people in. And if you do the majority of your gaming in said store, I would say you do indeed have a duty to support it with your purchases. Many stores don't offer a discount because they can't afford it, simple as. What they do offer you though is FREE gaming space, which is priceless if you don't have the room to get your own board set up. There is more to value than a discount.

I buy a lot at my FLGS. I agree, it seems when I get into a new army (see my sig, it happens often lol) stuff for my new army starts miraculously appearing more often... I feel bad tho, I get bored with armys quick and swapped often until a few months ago. I'm basically stuck on my three armies, I love em!

But back on topic, yeah, i definitely pay where I play a lot. They give good discounts, and they order on demand, even tho orders sometimes get effed or the selection sucks

Ditto with zid.

My FLGS offers a 20% off discount and a $5 gift card for every $200 spent over time.

With that kind of deal why would I ever go anywhere else. In fact I'm pretty sure this game store is the reason at least 1 GWS closed down, it was only a 5 min drive from the GWS to the FLGS.

Also their gaming area while not very good (shares space with a RC car Track) stays open after close for us.

My local gaming store is a GW. I was perfectly happy supporting them until urm... about August, now I resent every penny I end up giving them. That of course didn't stop my buying a mega paint set before Christmas. But boy did I grumble about it. Thing was the majority of the paints online were sold out around then. I have clawed some money back though by selling the brushes on to a mate.

I have ended up slipping the wayland and maelstrom website addresses to a neighbour to save her grandson some money

disdainful wrote:and rolling reclining leather office chairs to sit in while they play...

Nice!! I've never seen this done in any LGS I have been to.

Also agree that it's bad form to walk into a LGS and start telling the customers where they can get things cheaper. People get store banned for that kind of thing.

GG

I buy everything I need from my FLGS. I know I pay more for product than I could get it on line.

What the store offers me...
Place to game
Terrain to use
Place to meet new gamers
Place to talk to others and see their work
Good Service'
Same Day purchase on most items
Discount on bulk purchases

What an online store offers me...
Discount
Good Service (sometimes)

For those of you advocating discounts on product from your store consider this. I am not sure on the price of retail space in your area or utilities so this is based on what I know about local stuff. Our local store is 1000 square feet and of that I would bet 600 of it is open for gaming at any time. Rent and utilities probably come in the $1500 range (I only know the actual rent figures).

Now I believe his GW discount is 35% which is fairly standard from what I have seen. So to just make his rent and utilities he has to sell about $4300 of product to make rent. Now if he gave a 20% discount on that same product, he would need to sell $10,000 worth of product to make rent. Now he sells more product than GW and games in general, but by asking for a discount you are essentially asking him to increase his sales by more than 50% to cover that 20%.

I think the problem is most people fail to realize that any discount that the FLGS offers comes out of his money not GWs. GW gets the same money no matter who you buy from. And while there are some great online vendors, most of them are occupying office or warehouse space and that is much cheaper than retail space. They also only use the space they need. They don't have a large chunk of their rent tied up in what is simply a good will measure to show his commitment to his customer.

I can game anywhere, at home, store, anyplace there's a willing opponent. So gaming at the store is nice but not a deal maker or breaker.

For me to keep buying at an LGS is customer service. I know they have to compete with the online stores that offer 20% off and they know it too. So instead of declaring a price war (like K-mart did against Wal-mart, and look what happened to K-mart), the LGS should cater to what online stores can't do: face to face customer service. Why fight the enemy (and I use this in a competitive sense) with their strength? Use their weakness to win the battle and customers!

Listening to me instead of pushing me. Asking probing and not interrogatory questions about what armies I play, what my interests are that they may have something that I may enjoy, etc. Listening to my needs when I say "I really need some more troops, heavies, paints, etc." and offering a solution to my dilemma. Filling that hobby need without pushing the "OMG these new MTG decks are the bomb! Buy a case because they're selling fast and will make you uber-gamer of the year!! If you don't buy this you're crazy!"

The sales desperate owner/employee who keeps pushing immediately turns me off. If I want to browse, I'll say so. If I want to buy, I'll poke around, find what I want, and go buy it and usually I'll tell them "I need 3 packages of movement trays and some glue." Then a kind suggestion (not push) of "hey, we've not only got pva but we've also got brand x, y, and z in stock too. Which would you like?"

I guess as I get older I expect more than just a "here's your ONE bottle of glue, you didn't buy that MTG case I suggested so don't let the door hit you in the behind on the way out". My LGS, no longer FLGS, did that a few times when the owner pushed (not suggested) MTG, Heroclix, D&D minis, etc. when I had stated I wasn't interested but I would let him know when I was each time I visited. Then when I would buy one $15 40k mini, he would almost grumble at the register! This happened two more times when I bought some brushes and glue. Why go to a store where you're treated like crap and pay full price plus tax? Fugeddabout it!

My LGS is a GW, but a very small one. Up till now, I've only purchased small things (army books, dice, templates) at the local GWs. But since I plan to start gaming twice a week at the small GW closest to me, I'm going to be giving them my business. I think it's only fair!

If I had an independent LGS I'd probably do it there; but I haven't found one close to me.

Dez wrote:

disdainful wrote: Finally, don't ask me for a discount. I don't come to your house to hang out, then take the remote, turn the TV to what I want to watch, and ask you to make me a sandwich, too. Fully half of our space is given over to a free open gaming area, and we have to pay rent on that.

-Dis.

Don't you feel you may actually miss out on sales, because you aren't offering one? Some sort of special, to prevent customers from purchasing everything online at 20% off? I figured it would be worth it, considering most people would rather have product in hand and save on the shipping. I realize your arguments (and I'm not trying to start one) I'm sincerely curious. If it were me with the retail space, I would probably try and match that 20% in the hopes that people actually would travel to my shop. Of course, that's basing the general economic strategy of more sales at a lesser price.

Most local game stores can't afford a 20% discount. The online stores have a much larger turn over on product, not to mention the owner/employees can spend their whole working day packing/shipping and selling rather than talking with/selling to customers.

No discount means losing big sales to the internet. Having a discount means your working for nothing. It's a catch-22 that has put most FLGS out of business.

One time I stayed open an extra 45 minutes so a guy could go through our magic cards as he had already built up quite a stack of single cards. After pricing out the stack (which came to over a hundred dollars) he goes through the cards and purchases two dollars worth. It was like a slap in the face, I was pissed and I let him know about it. I still see him in from time to time, and I don't care if he ever spends another penny.

It's not like every customer is a good customer, you know; there are some customers that actively hurt a business just by them being there. Even the money they spend (which they usually don't) is almost never enough to make up the difference.

Some great reading here, thank you for helping me to appreciate my LGS even more. Both offer good customer service as well as a discount to our club. One has food, and loves when I bring my 5 year old daughter to play

What could be other sales strategies some could use, as opposed to discounts? Have you tried giving away a free pot of paint with every box set purchased? I'm just wondering if offering incentives like that would be a way to increase sales. I know having a place to play as well as food (pizza place) is a huge draw for me.

I try to buy where I play, even if it is low value stuff like paint or terrain making material. I do get the occasional Battleforce or special order item as well.. (get 20% off on GW purchases over $50.. but that is because of a long term gaming club the store runs)

I am known in the store to be a big internet/used mini guy.. and the store HAS been known to recommend folks on a budget to talk to me for advice etc.. which makes me feel all warm and fuzzy but also a bit uncomfortable..

I usually pay where I play, within a 2 mile margin of error. Since I almost never play at the store instead of my basement, I do most of my buying online at work. When I do go to the store for tourneys or Apoc games I usually pick up a few things, but by and large it doesn't make sense to drive 30 minutes to spend more on paint or whatever. I generally don't NEED anything within 3-4 days, and if I do I generally just buy a few extra. Buy 5 bottles of Devlan Mud at 20% off, that's like getting 1 free compared to retail.

Local stores have a lot going for them, and our local store The Portal is a great place. A 5-10% discount though is hard to swallow though with rare exception, and they lack the selection of the Warstore, who are also awesome people. Practically speaking, I think that FLGS are going to have to evolve to offer online sales, and larger discounts. There doesn't seem to be much reason why a guy can operate out of his garage that he is already paying for and offer a 20% discount compared to a guy opperating out the back room of his game store that he already pays for and offer 20% off.

The change might make people sad, but stores need to realize that they no longer have to compete with the guys across town, they have to compete with people all over. That is going to change the way they do business, and those who refuse to meet the challenge will simply be destroyed by it. Simply insisting that people should spend more money on the same product is a sure way to run yourself out of business.
Those insisting that meeting new people and having gaming space are worth something should try charging for using the space. You would find out very quickly what it is worth to folks. Maybe you could start a club that pays 60$ a year per person to use the tables as much as you want. Maybe people would pay, maybe not. I would suspect though that people would still be gaming if the local store space removed tables, so it is a question of where you price it.

loomisc wrote:I buy everything I need from my FLGS. I know I pay more for product than I could get it on line.

What the store offers me...
Place to game
Terrain to use
Place to meet new gamers
Place to talk to others and see their work
Good Service'
Same Day purchase on most items
Discount on bulk purchases

What an online store offers me...
Discount
Good Service (sometimes)

For those of you advocating discounts on product from your store consider this. I am not sure on the price of retail space in your area or utilities so this is based on what I know about local stuff. Our local store is 1000 square feet and of that I would bet 600 of it is open for gaming at any time. Rent and utilities probably come in the $1500 range (I only know the actual rent figures).

Now I believe his GW discount is 35% which is fairly standard from what I have seen. So to just make his rent and utilities he has to sell about $4300 of product to make rent. Now if he gave a 20% discount on that same product, he would need to sell $10,000 worth of product to make rent. Now he sells more product than GW and games in general, but by asking for a discount you are essentially asking him to increase his sales by more than 50% to cover that 20%.

I think the problem is most people fail to realize that any discount that the FLGS offers comes out of his money not GWs. GW gets the same money no matter who you buy from. And while there are some great online vendors, most of them are occupying office or warehouse space and that is much cheaper than retail space. They also only use the space they need. They don't have a large chunk of their rent tied up in what is simply a good will measure to show his commitment to his customer.

This.

If you derive value from your store, you should be supporting it.

If it's a bad store and doesn't help you enjoy your hobby more/more often, then that’s different. But good stores deserve support.

inc

I have to disagree with the whole "Don't walk in a store and say where you can get things cheaper" motif. Assuming the country of origin is a Capitolism run economy, price wars drive the market. Sometimes, you are doing your FLGS a favor saying where you can get things cheaper. Take TWS for instance, they offer a VERY nice discount to customers while at the same time, giving a BETTER discount to GS that order from them (due to their agreement with GW:US). Some stores don't know this or don't acknowledge this so sometimes, being "That guy" who says "Don't buy a land raider for 60$ when you can get it for 45$ on warstore" is actually helping the store own because it shows him a few things such as... A: Other businesses can do well offering this level of discount to their customers. B: There customers are well informed on their product and know what they want to buy (This is can be, in many instances, the BEST thing for a retailer) and C: The customer is morelikely to purchase MORE when they know they are getting a discount. (Making a 40$ profit on 1 Land Raider is less then making 2 sets of 25$ profit) <Clarification: PROFIT not REVENUE> just to name a few.

Now, that being said, I have been one to Upsale my friends at my FLGS and more frequently upsale a stranger (as an Ex-Retail employee, I know the power of "Peer-Customer Recommendation) to help out the FLGS but at the same time I will also tell them to buy their paint/glue from an Art Supply store or someplace where they aren't paying up to 8X markup... (why people still buy GW Glue/Paints is mindboggleing.. its just paint... you can actually get 4x better quality for 1/4th the price at most Art Stores) so there is a bit of balance there, but I do believe that a smart gaming store will be smart with how they properly adjust their prices to fit their community of gamers. (You don't open a Gaming Store to be able to buy a Yatch in 6 months is basically what I am saying)

However in the case of "Free Gaming Space" = no discount... I believe this is absurd. Free Gaming space is easy as HELL to come by... its called a Library. If you are still in High School, make a club to get classroom space after school. In College, there are plenty of activity centers. If more advanced then that, you probably should have some house space to use and even if that is cramped, the option of Library, Certain Resturants (Hell, even McDonalds works) or if you are lucky enough, place of employment (if you happen to work at a Hotel, you can use the Conference Rooms when they are not being rented, other examples like this... no, I don't mean "Cubicles" and the like) no matter your way, free gaming space is NOT hard to come by... if the store wants to get some sort of reward for offering the Game Space/Terrain/ ETC then there are plenty of other Ideas out there... For instance: I recall back in college we had a FLGS (and it was basically the ONLY GS for about 100 miles) that had "Semi-Free" space. They had about 2 tables in the "Shop" part of the store that were pretty much free play whenever you wanted, however the condition was to bring your own terrain. They also had a good 6 Tables in the back section of the store reserved for what was called "Members". The Membership cost 5$ a month or 15dollars for a semester (~6 months) or 25$ for a year. This fee allowed you to participate in store events, use store terrain at any time, and also (now this is the key part) let you recieve a 5% discount on all purchases <100$ and 10% on anything more then that (As well as occasional "seasonal" discounts, for instance, the Baneblade was 25% off when it first came out). This effectively made the 5$ a month (or 25$ a year if you were smart and planned on staying in school all year) neglegible as it paid for itself within like, 3 purchases (or 1 baneblade). Now, if you are a FLGS owner and you are reading this... CONSIDER THIS POLICY because I honestly believe that it is one of the best marketing strats I have ever seen.

I do want to add one last point however... as stated before, most LGSs have stupid overpriced snacks... shame on you guys for that! (Espcially ones with policies that prohibit outside food/drink...) Thats one thing I love about my current FLGS... they don't even bother with overpricing snacks and instead make you walk to 7-11 (ogod one block!).


tl;dr: FLGSs can easily make significant profits by following consumer patterns instead of bottom lines, or just give the rich kid free soda... then he will buy all your baneblades and make you rich!

I buy all paint from my store, but the only model I have purchased from them was a Drop Pod. But that's mainly because I moved to the area about a year ago and brought with me 3 full armies.

But I do spend more on boardgames at their store than 40k. Normally about every 3 months I buy another $40-$70 board game.

Backdraft005 wrote:
I knew one store that did it right, 16 oz cans of soda for a buck. That's how it should be. Tacking on 15% to the price is just an insult. I'll go get a sandwiche, thank you very much.

My FLGS has 12oz cokes for .50cents but no snacks; there's a subway next door though.


I got back into the game about 6 months ago and I've bought a little from my FLGS but I only play once every 2 weeks or so; I'm not really the ideal demographic. I have to say that I feel guilty for telling someone once "just buy it online", without thinking; if nothing else I should respect the store.

I buy odds and ends from my local GW Store since it's all I have. My Christmas list? got that from the Warstore. If the GW store closes over the NA Business shift (see Share news thread) I may not have a local store* anymore, so it won't matter.

* I define my local store as "within a 15 - 20 minute drive, including finding a parking space and walking in the door". I can't be bothered to travel farther. MY WoW is canceled until the expansion which should coincidentally be just in time for the lease at my local GW to be renewed this fall, so we'll see then whether I have a place to paint or whether I'm back to Azeroth.

Fair play to that store owner, he does exactly what I do at mine, listens to what customers need and gets it in. We kind of have to as its almost impossible to offer discounts (we do at tournaments and thats it) You have to spend your money wisely and get in what you think your gamers will want to buy.

I am a firm believer in supporting LGS, even if I travel to anotehr store to play in a tournament, I will usually spend about $50 there, and I own a store myself!

I rarely game at my FLGS, and being that it's about 30 minutes away, it's barely local. It's a nice smallish place with 4 tables, and a 10% off rewards program. I usually buy used and hunt for discounts, but I still I try to buy something when I'm around, and I'll occasionally order a book or somesuch. I recognize the value that the store has to the local gaming scene and in the future that I might game there more often, and I want them to still be there when that happens.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:inc

I have to disagree with the whole "Don't walk in a store and say where you can get things cheaper" motif. Assuming the country of origin is a Capitolism run economy, price wars drive the market. Sometimes, you are doing your FLGS a favor saying where you can get things cheaper....
...Some stores don't know this or don't acknowledge this so sometimes, being "That guy" who says "Don't buy a land raider for 60$ when you can get it for 45$ on warstore" is actually helping the store own because it shows him a few things such as...
.....;Clarification: PROFIT not REVENUE> just to name a few.

However in the case of "Free Gaming Space" = no discount... I believe this is absurd. Free Gaming space is easy as HELL to come by...

...I do want to add one last point however... as stated before, most LGSs have stupid overpriced snacks... shame on you guys for that! (Espcially ones with policies that prohibit outside food/drink...) Thats one thing I love about my current FLGS... they don't even bother with overpricing snacks and instead make you walk to 7-11 (ogod one block!).

tl;dr: FLGSs can easily make significant profits by following consumer patterns instead of bottom lines, or just give the rich kid free soda... then he will buy all your baneblades and make you rich!

Good for you for upselling at your FLGS, but there's a whole lot of other moldy baloney in your post that should be addressed.

1- It's not your store, so keep your freakin' mouth shut about other deals while you're in the store. Sure you've got free speach, but FLGS owner's got every right to ban you.

2- Most FLGS's are not stores with investors who will be placated by Gross Sales (what you refer to as "revenue") figures. They are privately run operations that need to make a PROFIT to survive. Selling two Raiders at 25% off makes less money for the store than one at 10% off.

3-The FLGS knows that things are cheaper elsehwhere and to assume they don't, or that they would benefit from such an annuoncment, is a rediculous piece of arrogance. Announcing the fact of cheaper prices in a store only hurts the FLGS and makes the person doing it look like an .....

4- Gamings space. It's not only the Free-ness, but the convenience and security. A few points. Many Libraries and community center's charge, especially in urban areas. Lots of folks aren't students anymore. Not everyone wants strangers to come into their home to game or even has room for gaming. Most homes don't operate with the convenience of a just-drop-in-and-find-an-opponent system.

5- Snacks. I'm as annoyed by overpriced snacks as the next guy, but as with any entertainment venue (sports, movies, etc) Food can help to support the business, outside food is not allowed, and you pay a premium for the convenience of that food.

Sorry if I'm coming down on you a bit hard, but them's the facts.

Sergeant Horse wrote:Fair play to that store owner, he does exactly what I do at mine, listens to what customers need and gets it in. We kind of have to as its almost impossible to offer discounts (we do at tournaments and thats it) You have to spend your money wisely and get in what you think your gamers will want to buy.
quote]

My point exactly. Offer what online retailers can't: great service. Listening to the customer and fill those needs. And on another note, I have canceled an order or two from online retailers because they and took 4 days to get back to my emailed question. At an FLGS, the customer can get an answer right away or quickly when the owner picks up the phone to speak to his distributor. It's tough to beat great face-to-face service!

Wrexasaur wrote:Mentioning that you would be buying from an FLGS, but the prices are too high, is not a sin.

If the FLGS has a serious problem with you having a conversation about such things, I would hazard a quick guess that they have other problems as well. Running around the store, telling everyone about this better deal online, and that better deal wherever, I could see a problem with. If the FLGS wants to act like the spanish inquisition over something as simple as people being consumers, and acting like any normal consumer would, they have other problems surely.

While an employee is pushing me to purchase hundreds of dollars of goods, they better be prepared to hear that they are offering a bad deal overall. There is no recourse, the tables are free lest they decide to ban you from the store. It is a tough business, but most business is tough business.

If you were in my store and walked up to me and said "I'd buy from you, but your prices are too high", I'd be pretty offended, considering 1) my msrp are set by GW (I don't mark up) and 2) I'm not charging you for the use of the tables/electricity/AC/chairs/army builder etc. I give my customers alot of attention, extending to teaching them to play, building army lists etc, but if your someone who doesn't want to support the store and help keep it open, then I won't go out of my way to help you. I'll still say hello to you, but I won't jump head over heels to serve you.

Also, its bad business to forcefeed people products, so if a store does it, ask them politely to stop.

I stop by weekly to my local GW to buy paints/glue and hobby supplies. When the new Tyranid dex came out, I bought the codex and a trygon there. Thats it. I'll buy a unit from time to time, but I see no reason to purchase FULL armies there.

I wasn't going to then buy 6 boxes of gaunts from them... no I'll Warstore that....

I have a game board, a heap of scenery and i play at my place (bought some fold out tables to put my realm of battle board on.) I buy most of my stuff online (standing 20-25% discount makes a HUGE difference when your buying 1000 pts of stuff at a time) GarG = Cave troll

So i dunno how good the paying for play space, argument sits with me. I guess if i did play at a shop, then i would buy a thing or 2 there, at least my paints and brushes / glue. Its the boxed stuff i go for the online discount.

Oh and Ive found at war gaming conventions, the things go oh so cheap, there's usually a bunch of shops, all stripping $1 amounts off each other to get the deal. Awesome time to buy up big. (this one shop even gave me 4 free brushes per boxed item.........) 6 boxes later and i had a lot of brushes.

I try to buy where I play, at least some things. I don't buy everything there since I tend to build and paint a fair bit and the models aren't cheap. That being said, I buy my paints at my FLGS. I buy most of my modeling and painting supplies at my FLGS (it'd be close to all except I'm picky on brushes). I buy my books at my FLGS and most of my blisters. Boxes are a mixed bag. These likely sit at about 50/50. Wierd stuff I want to convert and out of print stuff, that's mostly online, though my FLGS has started to sell on consignment, so I'm finding some things around.

Thankfully, I've got a good FLGS here. If that weren't the case, I'd likely do most of my purchasing online.

I buy good deals on ebay and the rest in my shop.. but my shop is also extremely good to gamers

The other store we have around here actually banned me because I started going to the better store.. Explain that one to me store owners? Wouldnt it be more prudent to try to get a high paying customer back instead? Especially if said customers only offense was going to a different store.. amusing really

Every now and then, I might buy something online, but I mostly buy all my stuff from my FLGS.

They've been good to me, so to speak, so although I am feeling the full fury of retail, I think its worth it, as I like to think I'm paying for the gaming space/time as well as the models themselves, which is small price to pay for the good times I've had there.

However, I'm one of those people who likes to buy one or two things at a time, finishing it before I buy another unit, otherwise I doubt I would ever finish anything.

However, every now and then, my FLGS offers some discounts, which is nice.

If you go to a strip club, there's a cover charge and a 2 drink minimum. Plus a buck "tip" per girl. Try to skip the cover & with your own drinks and see how the bouncers treat you.

Why should a store be any different?

Pay where you play.

Kanluwen wrote:Actually, that's not true.

Brick & mortar stores can sell online--just like the online retailers do.

Either way, they're both not allowed to have a shopping cart featuring GW products.

The "natural disadvantage" of a local store is that they have an actual storefront to maintain, utilities to keep going, etc.

Some web retailers have to just pay for warehousing/shipping costs.

You do know that the costs for a warehouse based online retailer can be as high and possibly higger than a retail store?

We are UK based but excluding taxes which are local then Id say most have the same to contend with.

Warehouse rent
Insurance -Whouse etc
Insurance - various liabilities
Monitored Alarm systems to comply with above
Business rates
Shipping
Packaging materials
Warehouse infrastructure costs - shelving etc
Website hosting
Web developer
card and payment fees
Advertising
printing costs - flyers etc
Sponsorship costs
Staff wages
Other IT costs

The list goes on.

To do anything properly is not cheap.

Sergeant Horse wrote:If you were in my store and walked up to me and said "I'd buy from you, but your prices are too high", I'd be pretty offended, considering 1) my msrp are set by GW (I don't mark up) and 2) I'm not charging you for the use of the tables/electricity/AC/chairs/army builder etc.

Actually, if I were to buy your products, that is exactly what I would be doing, paying for all of that stuff and more.

That aside, I wouldn't walk up to someone just to tell them that they are expensive. I would however, after making several small purchases, chat a bit about discounts. Most stores offer somewhere in the region of 10% off, after 200$ or so. I feel that is fair, and would generally stand up pretty well to online retailers after shipping costs. 15-20% would be pound for pound, a much better deal than most online retailers though, and if I can strike up a deal in that region, I will. Annually, I spend in the region of 300-500$ on minis and such, which is substantial enough for me to hunt down good deals.

I give my customers alot of attention, extending to teaching them to play, building army lists etc, but if your someone who doesn't want to support the store and help keep it open, then I won't go out of my way to help you. I'll still say hello to you, but I won't jump head over heels to serve you.

What happened to just being a customer? If a person uses your space regularly, and does not purchase anything at all (not even painting supplies, dice, whatever...), then it makes sense to generally ignore them. I would like to find a FLGS, that I could get a minimum of 15% off of products, optionally a trade day for the local players. I am lucky enough to have the latter, but it is not a regular thing. I am not the kind of player that cares all that much about gaming at stores, I like to drink beer while I play, so... yeah, beer is good. I know a couple of places that might not mind, but generally it would not be acceptable. If a store has nice tables, I would be likely to play more often there.

Curious as to why you're printing flyers if you're an online retailer specializing in something as obscure as miniature wargaming.

They used to try and hard sell in the Dublin City GW store but they've relaxed a bit over the last year.

When I say I'm looking for a monolith, they don't lash into a soliloquy about the rest of the army anymore.
Unless that's just becasue I used to sit there and look at the models, hold them in my hand,
go up to the till with them and only buy what I wanted. ??

I don't play in the local GW store much and purchase my GW stuff (when not online) from a store around the corner
which offers a 10% discount on marked prices all the time.

I like the FLGS GW but only to have a quick chat about the latest upcoming or next massive Apoc battles.

disdainful wrote:Having seen the retail situation from all angles (GW trade sales, GW retail, Independent retail), I would say it's imperative to contribute to your FLGS. I saw the same downward spiral over and over when I was in trade sales: new store opens, full of promise; things go well, initial stock sells; newness wears off, sales taper; owners panic, offer big discounts on marquee ranges like GW; store stops making money, can't pay rent, closes. I saw that happen in no more than 3 months in one case verbatim from start to finish. The model of an FLGS is so different from even a sales-focused GW store; especially if they provide gaming space... It has to have the support of the people that game there, or it will fail.

At my store we don't really push sales, so to speak; when someone comes in and starts talking about how they can get something cheaper online, my usual response is a shrug followed by "go for it". Our regulars all get it; that if they want to have their awesome free game space complete with bins and bins of custom terrain, plenty of open-copy games to just sit and play, counter time and shop talk with staff on tap, a painting space, a great bitz bin to dig through, air-conditioning, a large community of gamers (many of whom will come out at random times and on short-notice for a game), and rolling reclining leather office chairs to sit in while they play... they should buy something once in a while.

To a bit, first I add one caveat to the above: candy and soda don't count toward the whole 'buy something once in a while' thing! Second, if you have an awesome back-door hookup for deals on product, good job. I mean that sincerely; since I'm the same. I paid retail for one model, once: an old metal chaos terminator lord from GW Glendale in like 1999-2000. All I ask is that you keep it to yourself while you're in the store. That guy holding a box of tactical marines doesn't have your hookup, and unless you're going to deal him in on it, shut up about it! Standing there gushing about how great of a deal you get and how only chumps pay retail only accomplishes the goal of making that guy feel like a chump, which will preclude him from buying that box of marines so as not to exhibit his new-found chumpitude, which kills my sale and makes me really not like you. Finally, don't ask me for a discount. I don't come to your house to hang out, then take the remote, turn the TV to what I want to watch, and ask you to make me a sandwich, too. Fully half of our space is given over to a free open gaming area, and we have to pay rent on that.

Ok, over.

-Dis.

I know this will be a +1 post, but quite frankly, I agree with you fully.

One thing they did at my LGS once, at the WD birhtday or something, was if you bought a 12 month WD subscription from them you got a free blister pack or small boxed set (for example a necron lord) as a present. If you got a 24 month one you got a bigger boxed set (like some dire avengers, i think some even went up to £25 in worth, like tanks etc.).

It was quite good, though the gifts were wrapped in 'happy birthday' wrapping paper, so you didn't know what you'd be getting, unfortuantely. My step-brother bought a 12 month subscription and said that if it was an army i collected i'd have it, if it was an army he collected, he'd have it and that we'd share it if none of us collected that army.

We got some heavy weapon SM, one with a lascannon, one with a plasma cannon. We each painted one (i got the lascannon one, i think) in some random chapter colours. It's now sitting on a shelf in the garage with the rest of my models and i'll give it to my uncle to re-paint if he ever puts a long-fang squad in his SW army.

Wrexasaur wrote:
Actually, if I were to buy your products, that is exactly what I would be doing, paying for all of that stuff and more.

That aside, I wouldn't walk up to someone just to tell them that they are expensive. I would however, after making several small purchases, chat a bit about discounts. Most stores offer somewhere in the region of 10% off, after 200$ or so. I feel that is fair, and would generally stand up pretty well to online retailers after shipping costs. 15-20% would be pound for pound, a much better deal than most online retailers though, and if I can strike up a deal in that region, I will. Annually, I spend in the region of 300-500$ on minis and such, which is substantial enough for me to hunt down good deals.

At that point, its not a matter of buying cheaper goods, but do you want to go somewhere where you can easily pick up games, meet new people, have all the set up and the like prepared, or do you just want to play at home with your friends. What I'm saying is, if you want the first one, then do all your shopping at your FLGS and show support, if the latter, then buy wherever you wish.

I give my customers alot of attention, extending to teaching them to play, building army lists etc, but if your someone who doesn't want to support the store and help keep it open, then I won't go out of my way to help you. I'll still say hello to you, but I won't jump head over heels to serve you.

What happened to just being a customer? If a person uses your space regularly, and does not purchase anything at all (not even painting supplies, dice, whatever...), then it makes sense to generally ignore them. I would like to find a FLGS, that I could get a minimum of 15% off of products, optionally a trade day for the local players. I am lucky enough to have the latter, but it is not a regular thing. I am not the kind of player that cares all that much about gaming at stores, I like to drink beer while I play, so... yeah, beer is good. I know a couple of places that might not mind, but generally it would not be acceptable. If a store has nice tables, I would be likely to play more often there.

What I'm trying to get across to you is that a store cannot offer a 15% discount continously and stay in business, it just can't happen in this economy. I try to offer as much discount as possible, (we do 10% discounts (and 15% to our club members) on tournament days), do a trade day a month and hold adult lock ins where you can drink your beer and play, but if we did any o fthat stuff day in, day out, we'd be out of business and alot of people would have no place to meet and hang out.
What I'd suggest doing if you want a store to try be good to you, is do what our guys did, form a club to organise events, make terrain and set events, that way the store becomes YOURS. Thats what the guys at my place did, and they seem pretty happy

I love my FLGS. It has great people, and awesome, multilevel gaming tables and everything I could need for the hobby.

Sure, I could get the 20% off from the warstore, but I'd rather go in to the FLGS anyday.

Money is made to be spent, and I'd rather spend a little extra, and support my local store.

I like to prioritize my purchases between online and FLGS.

I.E. When I started my Dark Elf army I decided to go and buy a battalion box from the guys at my FLGS. Lucky enough for me the guys there are pretty great and they gave me a 15% discount because they had 2 sitting on the shelf forever. So it came out to 75 dollars plus tax which is more or less what you get it for online! So that was like my 'initiation' purchase that let me show my support for the store.

From now on I will probably buy paint, flock and any command/blisters I may need. And then I'll get the bulk of my RnF and stuff from online so it's not as expensive.

disdainful wrote:
chewbacca doesn't make sense; you must acquit.

I have been dealt a fatal blow...

I must now admit the fallacy of my previous posts. Any and all arguments presented by myself are completely null and void. I was wrong, in totality and absolute. Well played sir!

Now, all I have to say is this;

Support your FLGS. Especially if its "Joe's Gaming Shack" vs "GW <Your town here>"! The only times you should be hitting up Ebay or TWS is if you are on a tight budget or buying a MASS quanitity of figures (like, so much so that you destock your FLGS).

Also, if you are TFG that buys all of the "Kharne the Betrayer"s at your FLGS, and that FLGS happens to be in the Northern Virginia area... I will find you, and I will kill you!

I love my local FLGS - great owner, great venue with lots of tables and scenery, great group of gamers to play with. I try to spend all my gaming money there!

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

disdainful wrote:
chewbacca doesn't make sense; you must acquit.

I have been dealt a fatal blow...

I must now admit the fallacy of my previous posts. Any and all arguments presented by myself are completely null and void. I was wrong, in totality and absolute. Well played sir!

Chewbacca defense maintains its perfect record! (infinite wins - zero losses - zero draws)

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Now, all I have to say is this;

Support your FLGS. Especially if its "Joe's Gaming Shack" vs "GW <Your town here>"! The only times you should be hitting up Ebay or TWS is if you are on a tight budget or buying a MASS quanitity of figures (like, so much so that you destock your FLGS).

Also, if you are TFG that buys all of the "Kharne the Betrayer"s at your FLGS, and that FLGS happens to be in the Northern Virginia area... I will find you, and I will kill you!

Seconded on all counts, especially the part about waxing the guy that bought all the Kharns, since those things are special-order only these days! The whole 'de-stocking' thing is particularly salient; I get GW restock product once a week. Of course I'm stoked if someone comes in and buys up my whole stock of a given range of minis on Saturday, but the flip side is that I'm going to be out of those models until the following Friday, which means everyone else that might come in for those models during the week is SOL.

-Dis.

My FLGS is great place to play and to hang around talking about the hobby. The tables are excellent (flip tables with loads of variety landscapes,), the terrain is also top notch and owner is a very friendly guy. I try contributing as much as I can, even when I don’t need anything. However, there a few individuals who are always there and they never purchase anything. They pretty much buy used ugly painted miniatures for the cheap online or do a lot of trading in the store. I think the owner is too much of a nice guy to say anything but I’m sure he’s frustrated. Although it’s not my place to intervene, It really annoys me. These yahoos act like this store should cater to them without ever showing support and they have no respect for the hobby whatsoever. Should I say something?

JohnHwangDD wrote:If you go to a strip club, there's a cover charge and a 2 drink minimum. Plus a buck "tip" per girl. Try to skip the cover & with your own drinks and see how the bouncers treat you.

Why should a store be any different?

Pay where you play.

If my FLGS had strippers, I'd probably not be allowed to play there.

malfred wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:If you go to a strip club, there's a cover charge and a 2 drink minimum. Plus a buck "tip" per girl. Try to skip the cover & with your own drinks and see how the bouncers treat you.

Why should a store be any different?

Pay where you play.

If my FLGS had strippers, I'd probably not be allowed to play there.

If my FLGS had strippers I wouldn't be posting on Dakka right now... and Warhammer would officially consume 80%+ of my income (instead of the 40%+ it does already)

Man all of this just makes me want to spend more at my LFGS, I guess I never realized how good I really have it.

The gaming space is sub par but the 20% discount that I was taking for granted.

Fiercegoldfish wrote:Just like to mention that stores are at a natural disadvantage over all the online sellers, and that's that they aren't allowed to sell online. GW has a rule that stores cannot list any gw figures on there sites. This means that LGS cant sell as much as others since they don't have the internet to sell on, thus meaning that often they cannot discount.

Any argument of "well, why don't they just expand with the internet" is therefore moot.

Depends on where you are in the world.

In the US, GW doesn't sell directly to internet only stores. Stores online in the US either have a brick and mortar component, even if it's a token affair, or they don't buy from GW directly, and take at least a 10% hit to the bottom line.

I could sell online from my store, if I wanted to. Currently I don't, as I just don't have the time it would take.

Shopping carts, now those GW US do not like.

unfortunately, the LGS in town (I live outside of Orlando) doesn't have any GW stuff aside from 1 OOP WHFB Ffortress (i'm going to be buying it for a project), 1 Battle for Skull Pass that has been there for about 6-8 years and 1 LotR thing but I don't know how much it is or how old.

so I'm going to be buying pretty much everything from Sci-Fi City and online.

One thing that irks me when I'm at the FLGS is for someone to walk in and announce that he just bought (insert item here) online somewhere at a discount right in front of the store owner then ask who is up for a game while setting up terrain on a table provided at no cost to him. There has been more than one occasion, I've wanted to tell an individual that if he can get such a good deal online then he should go game there. I have no problem with someone ordering a single or hard to find bit in order to finish a conversion but to buy an army from an online retailer then game free is just wrong in my book.

There are two places about the same distance apart I can game at. One is a sterile chain store that does offer me a discount due to my profession. Table space is adequate and terrain is minimal if at all. The other is a smaller shop that now has over half the space he pays rent for dedicated to gaming. There is never a want for table space and there is enough terrain there to cover the 8 tables available with as much as you can want. I can drop by any day of the week with an army and get a game in.

I have been busy paintng stuff over the last months, so my gaming time has pretty much dropped to 0 apart from the blood bowl league I am organizing with friends. We live in different suburbs of the city and all have young children, so the FLGS is not an option (especially considering we have different stores).

Stuff I can get from my FLGS I get there, other things (usually blood bowl minis from small alternative brands) I buy online from the manufacturers.

I notice that the vast majority of posts are US-centric, which indicates to me that the rest of the world (and from my personal perspective, the UK) are less invested in the whole concept of a independent local gaming store with playing space.

It is noticeable that there is a definite divergence in the interests of gamers (have as much fun as possible) and the interests of store owners (make as much profit as possible). This comes from the natural instincts of both parties and is not a surprise.

This divergence if interests causes problems when either side developes an overstrong sense of entitlement ("I am entitled to earn a bigger profit out of these hobbyists because they are using my facilities", "I am entitled to play here and not pay a penny for the privelige)

Where it gets me though, is that always there is going to be that slight issue or feeling that "I am only tolerated as a gamer in this store because I have a wallet". The owner isn't putting out gaming tables just because he's a nice guy, but because he wants to earn a living. Now ha may be nice guy (as mikhaila, for instance, clearly is), but that's a bonus!

Here in the UK, far more common than it seems to be in the US, there are quite a number of private gaming clubs. They meet in church halls, (yes) libraries, hotels, pubs, scout huts, conference facilities, council offices, in fact wherever they can access space and store their terrain. Lots of them. even in the culturally barren North East of England I can name 5 I can access all an easy, short drive from my home.

These are run by enthusiastic committees, who's interests, rather than diverging like the store owner's, actually perfectly align with the members by definition, as they *are* the members. Everyone is in it simply for the fun of the project with the aim of providing as much gaming fun for as little money spent as possible. No one is in it to make a profit out of anyone else. No one is dependent on a benign owner to put on a good tournament, or provide space and materials. And there is no "owner" to feel resentful that these gamers aren't spending enough to justify his time. (Although of course nothing human-run is ever perfect and there are bad clubs and committees I am sure!)

Maybe it says something about the relative cultures of the US and the UK that the commercial model holds so much sway over the pond, but over here the more egalitarian model is more dominant? Maybe US folks have less distrust of the profit motive than we do? Maybe its because GW has less of a stranglehold of stores in the US than in the UK? Maybe both?

Don't get me wrong, I think it is entirely polite and ethical that if you game in a store, you should make some purchases there, but it does strike me that there is an inbuilt element of tension that is inevitable between store-owner and gamer, however nice they both are, simply because of the commercialisation of the set up.

A private club, on the other hand, while potentially demanding more of (some of) the participants (generally those who like the idea of being on a committee!) are totally free from that element. And their members are free to buy whatever stuff they want to from wherever they can get it and play whatever they want provided they can drum up an audience!

There must be *some* clubs in the US mustn't there be? Surely the profit motive hasn't permeated 100%?

(P.S.: personally I game in my own house, with my own friends, the idea of gaming with strangers isn't one that I find attractive, so these comments are purely offered out of a sense of interest, rather than combatativeness!)

Well I can say this

I'm Irish, born and raised and moved to the US 3 years ago, so I've seen both sides of the gaming fence. When I went to college, the only way to game was to make a group and set days, and the only place I ever saw to buy gw stuff was in little hobby stores that had no gaming space, so I can see how it would lead to a rise in clubs.

Since I've come to the US (and opened a game store), I have seen that its alot tougher to organise gaming groups (America is BIG), so having stores dedicated to gaming, where, as Boss Greenutz said, you can come at any time and get a game, is a big big factor. I base my stores attractiveness around that. You can come, at any point, and get a game. W even made our own community forums so people could easier organise games, its what alot of stores do actually
I know you said that owners are only interested in profits, and whilst thats important, its not fully true. If I was only interested in making a profit, you can be damn sure I wouldn't be running a tabletop gaming store! I work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week and hopefully earn enough in a month to keep the lights on, its a tough job and not as financially rewarding as you may think. I do it because its fun and I get enjoyment from seeing people push little figures around the table

Osbad,
That's a very enlightening post for me, as I hadn't really looked at it from that perspective. I know that people do play at their houses in the U.S. but have never heard of anyone playing warhammers at a Library or Church. Now, I have played other games at a Library, but these games were much smaller in scale, in that you didn't need to have a 6x4 table and a whole bunch of terrain and models to lug around.

I would be very interested in the "club" model where you don't have to depend on a gamestore. Now having said that, I have gamed at some incredibly well run, and organized game stores which have a great in store club scene. So well run, in fact, that there was no need to look elsewhere. But I have also been in poorly run gamestores. I think in that case, the UK model you represent would be a good one.

GG

Osbad wrote:I
There must be *some* clubs in the US mustn't there be? Surely the profit motive hasn't permeated 100%?

Here in Chicago there are at least two private clubs that I can think of. Both of these however are a bit different than the model you mention. They are both held in a private home, and are only open one or two evenings a week. The club model would/does work some places in the USA, but in urban areas, space is such a premium, that the cost of securing a non-home space that's available more than once or twice a week is quite expensive.

Osbad wrote:


There must be *some* clubs in the US mustn't there be? Surely the profit motive hasn't permeated 100%?

(P.S.: personally I game in my own house, with my own friends, the idea of gaming with strangers isn't one that I find attractive, so these comments are purely offered out of a sense of interest, rather than combatativeness!)

The club I'm a "committee" member of actually Tries to help out the LFGS, we host a site, I get a small amount of revenue from google ads.

So once a quarter we pick a LFGS and run a free to enter tournament with a couple hundred dollars in gift cards for the hosting store. Is the store getting rich off our couple hundred, no but hopefully some more purchases will be made during the tournament and some return business is built. In return if someone is having a hard time finding a game the store owner will usually point them to our site.

So I guess the Club model and the Capalist model do not have to be exclusive, but if done well can have a type of self sustaining synergy.

i think if anyone is trying to find a perfect Club/FLGS model, they need to check the various Atlanta Clubs. Pog mo Thon, WarFAN, NATO and FRAG all exist quite successfully with their local clubs and the symbiotic relationship is fantastic. The clubs help the store, the store helps bring in new members and people to play, both run loads of events (on average, we have at least 3 tournaments a month in the Atlanta metro area) and theres alot of cross pollination of clubs and stores, which is awesome

Sergeant Horse wrote:Well I can say this
I know you said that owners are only interested in profits, and whilst thats important, its not fully true. If I was only interested in making a profit, you can be damn sure I wouldn't be running a tabletop gaming store! I work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week and hopefully earn enough in a month to keep the lights on, its a tough job and not as financially rewarding as you may think. I do it because its fun and I get enjoyment from seeing people push little figures around the table

Respectfully Osbad, I agree with Sergeant Horse. It is possible to have multiple motivations after all. There was one local store I used to go to that would actually say "If you want to play the Mechwarrior campaign tonight you each have to buy a booster pack", a point for your argument. But the two main gaming stores here that are still going strong, their managers and owners were gamers before they ever opened their stores. One store's manager used to have us all over at his house every week for 40K and Warhammer. Times have changed and he can't do that now, but you know his store rents the mall conference room every Monday night for open gaming, and I know as much as they need to make a profit, they are our friends and fellow gamers too. It won't be like that everywhere, but sometimes 'Fun' and 'Profits' go hand in hand. Still, this is not to say you are wrong, it sounds from this thread that some people do have the 'either/or' situation and your theory does seem to fit these cases.

These clubs you are talking about, they don't have to pay for the room space? If they had to pay rent, it wouldn't be a 'profit' motive, but it would introduce the financial stresses that businesses share.

I shop online because it saves money. In this economy, and with lower income flow heh. It only makes more sense.

When it comes to wargaming everything is just a want. Not a need.

The only time i buy something fron a LGS is when i need something. Paint for a project immediately.

RogueMarket's declaration is one I've heard often. Simply put, if you don't support a local place to buy minis & play, then it is quite likely that LFGS will no longer support the game, and finding new players will be tougher.

The US is a BIG, mostly low-density place. I have to drive 60 minutes to play with more than one or two people. Ensuring that the location where I game stays open and supportive is important to me.

*shrug*

It's not all about money.

Eilif wrote:...The club model would/does work some places in the USA, but in urban areas, space is such a premium, that the cost of securing a non-home space that's available more than once or twice a week is quite expensive.

Whereas in parts of rural America the physical distance involved with getting a community with enough player density makes it unworkable, too. Distance kills the country gamer and expense kills the city gamer

This is a hard thing for me. My FLGS does have gaming tables, but I have yet to play a game on them in the 5+ years I have been going there. They do offer a small discount system, where every $20 you spend, you get a token that is good for $1 off of another sale in the future. Any overage over $20 is lost, so in effect you are not even getting a 5% discount. I used to once in a while go to Goblin Shoppe before they were bought out by a comic book store and then closed down shortly afterward. They offered a nice discount locally, but the drive and getting items ordered or preordered was always a hassle.

If I want to pick something up NOW or a bottle of paint if I am running low on a color, I go to the FLGS, but if I need several bottles and/or am buying several sets of models, I will use thewarstore for my sales, that flat 20% off and cheap shipping always comes in handy. I usually keep a list of items/bits that I want to order and then do one big order when I want it. Back a few Christmases ago, they had a nice discount deal going (was it black friday) where I picked up the Citadel Realm of Battle Gameboard, I still have yet to paint it fully, but I carry it over to my neighbor's house, and we game on that with a variety of terrain. He supplies the beer/soda, we order pizza, and generally have a great all day gaming session.

At my independent local gaming store you must pay to play on the gaming tables. Or you must spend 100€ (in one buy) to become a member and then, you can play for free. Plus, if you are member you have 10% of discount on GW products.
They do everything they can do, but to manage an independent local gaming store is the worst business I can imagine.
GW works against independent gaming stores! Your supplier are working against you!
1. The profit margin on models are ridiculous.
2. The supplier (GW) sells on their webstore with no sipphing costs.
3. The supplier (who sells on their webstore) has "special" products that no one else can sell.
4. Some models require bits that only can be found on... their webstore!
5. When the number of gamers has risen (thanks to a little independent gaming store) they put their own and big store on that city.
6. They do special offers on their stores that no one else can do.
7. Independent gaming stores doesn't know nothing about the next updates, models, armies and company planning. Because that, thay can not do a good job with orders
8. ad infinitum


At my business we work for a 120-230% profit margin. And we let to know our retailers the catalog for the next year. It is the only way to let him survive and make money. Retailers pay for electricity, rent, advertising, workers, taxes, ...

RUNE wrote:At my independent local gaming store you must pay to play on the gaming tables. Or you must spend 100€ (in one buy) to become a member and then, you can play for free. Plus, if you are member you have 10% of discount on GW products.
They do everything they can do, but to manage an independent local gaming store is the worst business I can imagine.
GW works against independent gaming stores! Your supplier are working against you!
1. The profit margin on models are ridiculous.
2. The supplier (GW) sells on their webstore with no sipphing costs.
3. The supplier (who sells on their webstore) has "special" products that no one else can sell.
4. Some models require bits that only can be found on... their webstore!
5. When the number of gamers has risen (thanks to a little independent gaming store) they put their own and big store on that city.
6. They do special offers on their stores that no one else can do.
7. Independent gaming stores doesn't know nothing about the next updates, models, armies and company planning. Because that, thay can not do a good job with orders
8. ad infinitum


At my business we work for a 120-230% profit margin. And we let to know our retailers the catalog for the next year. It is the only way to let him survive and make money. Retailers pay for electricity, rent, advertising, workers, taxes, ...

To be fair to GW, it isn't that way in the US. At least from my point of veiw, and I've carried their stuff for 22 years.
1. Profit margin is inline with MTG, and many other games, equal to Warmachine and Flames of War.
2. No shipping cost when my customer picks up from me either.)
3. I can order every single item on the GW website for my customers. Do it routinely.
4. See #3
5. I bought out the first GW store in Philadephia when they were going to close it. Second was opened on the other side of the city from my stores, about an hour drive. They just moved that store, and it got smaller. They are referring most of the veteran gamers down to my stores since I have play space that they lack. Someone in GW thought scheduled a store to go in near me, without quite looking at the map, other people in the company nixed the idea, and I know it cost them some cash. For years they have talked to me about how/where they were putting in stores.
6. See #3, I get everything they have on the website.
7. HA!!! Sorry, but the poor guys in retail don't know either. I have friends at the GW stores. I sometimes get updates, and new army books before they do. GW is tight with info everywhere, not just in their own stores.
8. Ad infinum, but in the opposite direction. A good independent store can study and steal the good parts of a GW store, then add stuff GW can't, and provide services to their customers that GW can't. It does take time, energy, and a willingness to commit yourself to the games. But it certainly pays off in sales. And, frankly, GW works very well with stores that do that.

I could care less about competition from GW. They don't discount. My competition comes from two sources:

1) Online discounters with a huge % off, and crappy service. They tend to disappear with peoples money after awhile, but another one always pops up.
2) Neal at the Warstore. And not because of his 20% off, but because of his committment to service. Neal competes by giving good service to his customers. Any store that wants to compete with Neal needs to start with service, complete stock of models on the wall at all times, and a willingness to fix problems. That's his real secret.

I sort of stayed away from this thread because of my obvious bias. But I'll say this: Go back and look at the thread, and notice that the overwhelming majority of people value 3 things: Service, Discount, and Selection. A store doesn't need discount, IMHO, but it better have service and selection.

mikhaila wrote:
To be fair to GW, it isn't that way in the US. At least from my point of veiw, and I've carried their stuff for 22 years.
1. Profit margin is inline with MTG, and many other games, equal to Warmachine and Flames of War.
2. No shipping cost when my customer picks up from me either.)
3. I can order every single item on the GW website for my customers. Do it routinely.
4. See #3
5. I bought out the first GW store in Philadephia when they were going to close it. Second was opened on the other side of the city from my stores, about an hour drive. They just moved that store, and it got smaller. They are referring most of the veteran gamers down to my stores since I have play space that they lack. Someone in GW thought scheduled a store to go in near me, without quite looking at the map, other people in the company nixed the idea, and I know it cost them some cash. For years they have talked to me about how/where they were putting in stores.
6. See #3, I get everything they have on the website.
7. HA!!! Sorry, but the poor guys in retail don't know either. I have friends at the GW stores. I sometimes get updates, and new army books before they do. GW is tight with info everywhere, not just in their own stores.
8. Ad infinum, but in the opposite direction. A good independent store can study and steal the good parts of a GW store, then add stuff GW can't, and provide services to their customers that GW can't. It does take time, energy, and a willingness to commit yourself to the games. But it certainly pays off in sales. And, frankly, GW works very well with stores that do that.

I could care less about competition from GW. They don't discount. My competition comes from two sources:

1) Online discounters with a huge % off, and crappy service. They tend to disappear with peoples money after awhile, but another one always pops up.
2) Neal at the Warstore. And not because of his 20% off, but because of his committment to service. Neal competes by giving good service to his customers. Any store that wants to compete with Neal needs to start with service, complete stock of models on the wall at all times, and a willingness to fix problems. That's his real secret.

I sort of stayed away from this thread because of my obvious bias. But I'll say this: Go back and look at the thread, and notice that the overwhelming majority of people value 3 things: Service, Discount, and Selection. A store doesn't need discount, IMHO, but it better have service and selection.

WELL SAID MIKHAILA.

you stated everything I was trying to figure out how to say to that post

I'll just throw my 2 cents in. I do my very best to support my FLGS whenever I can. I have traded online quite a bit and buy random things but the majority of what I get comes from there. I enjoy the ability to go and play or hang out anyday of the week. I live in the nieghborhood behind mine lol so the nearest other game store is probly 30 min to an hour away. So I really don't mind buying from them.

RUNE wrote:At my independent local gaming store you must pay to play on the gaming tables. Or you must spend 100€ (in one buy) to become a member and then, you can play for free. Plus, if you are member you have 10% of discount on GW products.

That is INSANE, so effectively, the only way to become a member is to buy a new army? Also, do you get that 10% off the original 200$+ purchase?

rune wrote:
1. The profit margin on models are ridiculous...

...At my business we work for a 120-230% profit margin. And we let to know our retailers the catalog for the next year. It is the only way to let him survive and make money. Retailers pay for electricity, rent, advertising, workers, taxes, ...

You are right, that is a ridiculous profit margin, assuming you obtain the average profit margin of your two figures (while quite a broad spectrum it already it) you would be recieving an average of 175% PROFIT margin. So that would mean that for every item you sell, you make profit of 2 3/4s so in essence, if you have an inventory of 100 land raiders at 60$ a pop (Price used for example, may not be real price at store) it would take 37 Land raiders to cover the cost of the batch as well as all other cost relations, giving you a profit of 3780$. Assuming it takes 2 months to sell those LRs (Again for EXAMPLE) that would be a wage of ~8$ and hour (above minimum). And thats ONLY selling 100 landraiders in a period of 2 months. I can only imagine the profits your store takes home if it requires people to make a purchase of 200+$ (63€ profit just to become a member, you must have some big spenders in your area). Unless your store is a ghost-town, you must be making quite the living off of indepentant game store managing.

Unless of course you mean you make an Internal Revenue of 175% (Meaning before rent, employee wages, etc) but even so, thats still outrageous!

The only company that I have heard of that comes close to that level of profit margin (on all of their goods) would be Apple. But then again, Apple is an evil company that sucks the money out of the wallets of their loyal patrons... (Personal vendetta!)

privateer4hire wrote:
Whereas in parts of rural America the physical distance involved with getting a community with enough player density makes it unworkable, too. Distance kills the country gamer and expense kills the city gamer

I never thought of that. I guess the club scene is perhaps limited to suburbs and small towns with low propery values?

Seriously though, some non-FLGS-based clubs do exist, but as you point out there are alot of barriers to putting together a club with it's own permanent space that meets more than weekly, that is not based at a FLGS or an individuals home.

Is the on-line discount such a big deal?

For instance checking out prices for a Sace Wolf Battalion set at GW is £50
Wayland have it at £40-45 *

But then you need to factor in postage costs. There is still a saving to be made but for the sake of the few quid involved, i am better off (IMHO) to go to Games Emporium an indie retailer and support them.

It is a small price to pay for the great personal service they provide.
The same question pops up regarding model hobby shops and there is plently of hand wringing and lamentation that accompanies the closure of a LMS.

The extra service that these guys are providing is exceptional and would be a tragedy to lose for the sake of a few bucks.

*please don't take this as a slight on Wayland or other on line stores as they provide good service too. It is just that having lost a LMS a few years back who also stocked GW stuff, it is a pain in the derrier to get to a store now.

I think the discount becomes a bigger deal if you're buying a large lot, Chibi Bodge-Battle.

I've noticed this, too- if I want to buy things slowly, piecemeal, there's really not a lot of savings in buying online, anyway, due to the shipping. I also can't get some of the items I'm looking for at the online discounters, only the mainstays of the army.

If I was going to buy the mainstays in bulk, I would save money doing it online... but I'd rather buy it as I go and support my local store.

Otherwise I get discouraged by the amount of unfinished models, and don't get any traction on the project (this has happened several times!). Going into the store every week or two and buying the next piece gives me some accountability and people to talk to about the project... and of course posting it on Dakka helps, too

Fair comment mate

Buying an instant army isn't going to happen for me due to cash flow
and the fact that there are far too many unfinished models in the house as it is

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
That is INSANE, so effectively, the only way to become a member is to buy a new army? Also, do you get that 10% off the original 200$+ purchase?

Could you do an army with 100€? A simply battlebox, 85€ in Europe. 1€ = 1.35$

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
You are right, that is a ridiculous profit margin, assuming you obtain the average profit margin of your two figures (while quite a broad spectrum it already it) you would be recieving an average of 175% PROFIT margin. So that would mean that for every item you sell, you make profit of 2 3/4s so in essence, if you have an inventory of 100 land raiders at 60$ a pop (Price used for example, may not be real price at store) it would take 37 Land raiders to cover the cost of the batch as well as all other cost relations, giving you a profit of 3780$. Assuming it takes 2 months to sell those LRs (Again for EXAMPLE) that would be a wage of ~8$ and hour (above minimum). And thats ONLY selling 100 landraiders in a period of 2 months. I can only imagine the profits your store takes home if it requires people to make a purchase of 200+$ (63€ profit just to become a member, you must have some big spenders in your area). Unless your store is a ghost-town, you must be making quite the living off of indepentant game store managing.

Unless of course you mean you make an Internal Revenue of 175% (Meaning before rent, employee wages, etc) but even so, thats still outrageous!

The only company that I have heard of that comes close to that level of profit margin (on all of their goods) would be Apple. But then again, Apple is an evil company that sucks the money out of the wallets of their loyal patrons... (Personal vendetta!)

RUNE wrote:
Could you do an army with 100€? A simply battlebox, 85€ in Europe. 1€ = 1.35$

Wow, the value of the dollar has increased. Even still, a "simple battle-box" is typically marketed as a starter force. Strike forces are full on 1500 point lists.

RUNE wrote:
I think you or me missed something. I'm not in the miniature business. I'm talking about MY businees when I told about 130%/230% profit margin. And, of course, it is not miniatures.
And, when I talk about 1,3-2,3 it is simply= the cost is 100, then, it will be sold at 230€ (at minimum). Now, you know the money that can be moved by an international fashion business.
And, of course, at the end of the month we must pay rents, workers, agents, lawyers, insurances...

I misunderstood the context of "My store" in relation to your FLGS. I thought you were another store owner (as this site has alot) and I am sure many of them were thinking "Jeeze, how much do you charge to get a margin of 175%.

Yes, the Fasion business is very profitable, no doubt about that. (See my remarks to Apple, effectively the "fasion" business of electronics) but if you are taking the 175% before factoring in the end-of-month costs (rent, wages, etc) then that would be more of a Revenue Percentage or "Marginal Gains" Profit is the money that you as the owner get at the "end of the day", when all associated costs (including Product, facilities, and services/labor) are taken from your Revenue.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Is the on-line discount such a big deal?

For instance checking out prices for a Sace Wolf Battalion set at GW is £50
Wayland have it at £40-45 *

But then you need to factor in postage costs. There is still a saving to be made but for the sake of the few quid involved, i am better off (IMHO) to go to Games Emporium an indie retailer and support them.

It is a small price to pay for the great personal service they provide.

Rest of Europe:
Battlebox/battalion at GW store/independant store = 80/85€
Maelstrom = 50/53€
save= ~35€

Imperial Guard Cadian Shock Troops box at GW store/independant store = 20
Maelstrom = €11.99

Difference between official UK and Europe prizes are stunning. Now GW are fixing differences, but they should ban discounts from webstores.
Another time, at my job, the big companies forbid the retailers to lower a minimum price to protect the market.

Of course, uk webstores were my first option and I've spent a lot of money with them. Everyone looks after their interests and, at the end, I sympathize with the problem. And think it's GW fault to allow those discounts on webstores and difference between prices.

Thanks for that Rune
had no idea there was such a difference. It is rather astonishing. Theoretically it should be cheaper online in the UK given the domestic transport costs should be lower. Mainland Europe would have extra costs incurred which means the online price ought be higher? Is sterling really that bad against the Euro
Am somewhat baffled by this.

Not sure what GW can legally do regarding price fixing. There may be legislation prohibiting such actions.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

GW *IS* legally price fixing. There *IS* legislation prohibiting such actions.

I fixt that statement using only the word "IS".

How GW gets away with it? They don't have a monopoly on the Wargaming hobby. Same way apple gets away with charging 1900$ for a computer with the processing power of a 200$ Netbook simply because it is "lighter" (MacBook Air). It's bullscrap but its legal.

Eilif wrote:

privateer4hire wrote:
Whereas in parts of rural America the physical distance involved with getting a community with enough player density makes it unworkable, too. Distance kills the country gamer and expense kills the city gamer

I never thought of that. I guess the club scene is perhaps limited to suburbs and small towns with low propery values?

Seriously though, some non-FLGS-based clubs do exist, but as you point out there are alot of barriers to putting together a club with it's own permanent space that meets more than weekly, that is not based at a FLGS or an individuals home.

Come to think of it, this sort of divide might have a lot more to do with people's perceptions and priors than is immediately obvious.

Myself, I grew up in the sticks. Trees, farms, more trees. The local game shops were about an hour away, if you were lucky enough to find one (getting a ride was of course a pain.) What stores there were often had very little stock of anything, if they stocked your poison at all. Even playing something as common as Magic when it came out was a question of finding a source for cards first, and finding friends/enemies at school to game with was pretty much the only option. As a result, any of us that played anything were used to setting up our own clubs, networks and the like to get games in.
The internet then opened up a huge avenue for aquiring gaming items, meeting people and setting up networks of gamers. Even in college we met friends, friends of friends and other opponants through groups and clubs set up among students. There was a half decent comic store that sold some gaming stuff, but I don't think I ever met anyone through there, even indirectly.

So I guess I would ask "What have I ever really gotten from a FLGS?" Turns out, not a lot. Most of the people I game with now I met through Dakka, though some have been through the local networks in the stores. Now, the occaisional tournament is nice, but I probably wouldn't notice for a good 2-3 months if the local stores closed down.

Then again, I am more of a painter than a player, and get enough human interaction at work to make me want to avoid leaving the house, so I might be a bad example. Still, I have to wonder how much of people's attachment to the idea of a FLGS is due to living in a place where a pretty decent one was handy, and so they never had to set up their own networks of gamers, and as such are not comfortable with the notion? I could see myself getting in a similar mindset if I had grown up going to Mikhalia's fantastic store instead of roughing out in the wilderness.

Speaking of which, glad to see you chime in Mike! Also glad to see our conversation Sunday helped streamline your thoughts!

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Is the on-line discount such a big deal?

For instance checking out prices for a Sace Wolf Battalion set at GW is £50
Wayland have it at £40-45 *

But then you need to factor in postage costs. ...

On the postage deal, Neal at the Warstore ships for about £3 on virtually any order size. That makes even small orders easily justifiable. Couple that with his insanely nice service, prompt delivery, and great discounts (20% on most items) and you see why it's hard to avoid buying from a store like that

Hi Privateer

Have to disagree on that. Not to incite an argument, but because I am a tight fisted

For example, a single figure blister pack would cost around £7. so three quid postage is roughly an extra 50%.
That is half a figure - so the postage literally it would cost an arm and a leg!

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Hi Privateer

Have to disagree on that. Not to incite an argument, but because I am a tight fisted

For example, a single figure blister pack would cost around £7. so three quid postage is roughly an extra 50%.
That is half a figure - so the postage literally it would cost an arm and a leg!

yes but say you purchase 10 figures, the 20% effectively is giving you 2 free and the postage is the same regardless, so you are still getting 8 and 1/2 for the price of 10 (including shipping) and thats on tiny orders, you really start to see the savings when you decide to mechinize your army (for instance, buying 6 rhinos 3 LRs and a few Pred/Vindis for apoc)

Yes
but that would be different from a small order- which was my point
ie you order one or two figures each time- a couple for the sake of arguement
5x£3=£15 postage on top of the price for 10 models is not so good

Of course if you only pay 3 quid postage on enough armour to invade Iraq , that has to be good.

Another consideration is cash flow. Personally it would be hard for me to splash out like that all in one go. So for some it is just as well to pop to the LFGS.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Yes
but that would be different from a small order- which was my point
ie you order one or two figures each time- a couple for the sake of arguement
5x£3=£15 postage on top of the price for 10 models is not so good

Of course if you only pay 3 quid postage on enough armour to invade Iraq , that has to be good.

Another consideration is cash flow. Personally it would be hard for me to splash out like that all in one go. So for some it is just as well to pop to the LFGS.

Okay let me tell you what I had in mind for 'small'. A single box of SMs is $35 retail. I get it for $28 from WarStore because of discounting. If I pay the $5 in shipping (his standard rate), then I got it for $2 cheaper (not even counting tax) than if I bought it at the LGS AND it's delivered to my door.

Obviously the single figure for $15 is harder to swallow. BUT since I would get that figure for $13.50, even then the shipping is effectively cheaper again because the model's price is reduced.

I will concede that if I'm buying a $4 tub of static grass that the $5 shipping is kind of hard to swallow. That's why I wait until I want at least a full box worth of minis

privateer4hire wrote:

Obviously the single figure for $15 is harder to swallow. BUT since I would get that figure for $13.50, even then the shipping is effectively cheaper again because the model's price is reduced.

I will concede that if I'm buying a $4 tub of static grass that the $5 shipping is kind of hard to swallow. That's why I wait until I want at least a full box worth of minis

If all you are buying is a single 15$ model, then yes, the FLGS is cheaper, if you are willing to hold off on the single figure untill you get some more stuff you want to purchase (at the same time) then the Online medium is cheaper. If you are an impulse buyer, then of course, you probably love your LGS as much as the owner loves you (infact, all Retail places lurves der impulse buyers!).

However, if you are going out to your LGS (be it a 5 min or a 35 min drive) for a 4$ tub of static grass you might be better off just going to a local art store to get a MUCH cheaper deal (even then TWS) for such a small purchase. And consider this fact, assuming your store does not have a rule on minimum purchases for Credit, buying that 3$ thing of paint (if that is all your are buying) on credit actually LOSES the store money (as most credit cards have a minimum surcharge and also charge a set % of the transaction). So if all you really need is a jar of paint and your FLGS owner is a niceguy that doesnt set Credit Mins, don't use your check card as a visa at his store... go to an art store and let them soak the lost revenue. Or better yet, wait till you need more and buy from the LGS. Best case scenario... HIT UP A DAMN ATM! (I can't stand seeing people buy things like snacks and single paint jars with a credit card. One of my FLGS don't have a min limit as one person only has credit and occasionally only needs a soda or something, but because the owner is nice not to set a limit, some jackovz seem to think it means "Oh, every time I need a 1$ soda, I should make it a SEPERATE transaction with my mom's visa!) DON"T BE THAT GUY!

I try to pick up something ever time I go to my FLGS to play. My store is a MTG store mostly but they have built some awesome tables for 40k. I try to buy a set of models or at the minimum a pot of paint to show that 40k is present at the store.

Chiming in on the clubs sub-thread: I help run a club (PAGE CC) in Philadelphia (east coast US). For those sort of clued in about the area but not quite, it's about 40 minutes from Mikhaila's store. Just close enough that a couple guys go there from time to time, but probably just far enough to be slightly different "markets," particularly when you figure many in our club are true downtowners who rely on public transit, walking, etc.

The club meets once a week (Sunday evenings) in a building downtown owned by a long standing philosophy/activism organization (Philadelphia Ethical Society). The traditional club focus is on boardgaming, but miniatures and particularly 40k are a large and increasing aspect, and definitely currently the most energized.

Although small by many standards, I think the club's actually fairly successful. The big thing is that almost everyone can find people to game with. On any given week, you will find a variety of boardgames to hop into. On the monthly 40k convergence, you'll find a bunch of different armies and a good number of players (generally 12--17 players), and the club members work together to provide and transport terrain and so on, which many people don't have or can't get there.


In many ways it fills many of the roles of a good gaming store, which I see as including at least:

- Providing space to play. I think most people will happily play games with a larger set of people than those they would like to have traipsing all over their house. On top of that, public space can often run a lot more games. Especially in a dense urban area like ours, space at home to run more than a table or two is rare, let alone space to run the 12 or so we routinely run at the club (e.g., our recent pattern of 7--8 40k, 1 or 2 Warmachine, and 2--4 boardgames). Having that kind of space to all get together is great because it helps you meet new people, catch up with guys you may not be playing on a given night, suck in new players ("Wow, what are you guys playing?!?!"), and build an event atmosphere.

- Expose people to new games, systems, armies. Despite loving and following the fluff, I might never have gotten into actually playing 40k if I hadn't kept seeing a couple guys playing it at the club. Having a large pool of people bringing in games, armies, etc., really increases your level of exposure to the hobby, letting you find that next great thing you really love.

- Teaching and recruiting new players. A lot of our guys are happy to lend out armies for people to try playing, and a lot are super supportive of new players. Part of the reason I started playing 40k a lot is basically a couple of the guys gave me a lot of their unused models once they saw the gleam in my eye... Having that large group also keeps new perspectives coming in, so people learn a lot more about rules and tactics then they would playing the same couple people all the time. Ditto on painting and modeling skills and ideas.

- Providing terrain and other support. Myself and a couple other guys love building terrain, have space to store it, and can transport it to the meetings. Other people don't. Playing at the club provides a lot of our guys much better options in this regard then they would have on their own.

- Giving a community in which to geek out. Even though the club only meets once a week and 40k basically once a month plus the odd game here and there, there's a lot of chatter about games and specifically 40k on our listserve. A lot of people get that from great forums like Dakka as well, but it's cool to then actually see those people and get in a game with those people.

- Run special events. Especially for 40k, we have a pretty reasonable stream of stuff going on, whether it's the club outing to 'Ard Boyz or other external tournaments, our own relaxed tournaments, themed narrative nights, Apocalypse games, or whatever, people really get into that and having the club provides a larger pool of players and, critically, potential organizers.


In any event, such clubs definitely exist in America and I think have an important position in the gaming community.

Another point is that people are totally willing to pay for all of those features I list above (we basically charge $4/night to cover rent), so it makes no sense for anyone to argue that people playing at a store shouldn't be supporting that store in some way. Whether it's memberships to use store features or buying merchandise, I think that's a completely reasonable expectation. Even within our club, which runs a pretty decent periodic bulk discount purchase, all of the core 40k guys definitely put out and evangelize the perspective that if you're playing in a store, you should buy something. I admit that I hesitate to buy big stuff at full price, but myself and a bunch of the guys are all too happy to buy codexes, small boxes like Command Squads, etc., at local stores.

On that note, I think clubs and stores can definitely exist together. We've been unfortunate that there haven't been gaming stores right in downtown Philly in a while, but recently we've been slowly building up a relationship with a new store on the western edge of Center City (Redcap's). For an example of how they complement each other, one thing I think we're finding is that it's obviously easier for them to host small groups at weird times. They're a store, they're open basically all the time, and they have pretty good gaming space. You can reliably count on popping in with a friend to play a match and finding a table. Our kind of gaming would have to get a whole lot more popular for the club to justify paying that kind of rent (it's worth noting though that Philadelphia and most cities have many bridge, poker, and other full time gaming clubs). On the other hand, in some ways it's easier for the club to host less regular big events. We don't have to worry about things like crowding out all the cash-money Magic players with a large crowd of comparatively space-required-per-$$$ inefficient 40k players. So, I'm hoping we can work together with symbiotic events and efforts to continue growing 40k in Center City.

I get a lot of "deals" on ebay. I am a budget-hammer player and need to save wherever I can. With that said - I do purchase items often at my FLGS. All of my modleling supplies (greenstuff, paint, brushes, primer) all come from there and I just started to buy a box a month from them. They have a deal where you get in-store credit for the average of ten GW items you buy in under a year. So, for me - this adds up to about 20% off of everything when all is said and done. I will always be on the lookout for insane deals online however, but I do my best to pump whatever I can afford (litterally) into my FLGS whenever I can! If I had $400 to burn right now - I would head there this minute and buy up that salamnders force I have been dreaming about for the past twoo weeks.