Now, I would really like to express that I am NOT bagging religion. If you believe in God or any number of Gods, immortal beings, prophets or spiritual leaders, then I won't diss or otherwise act rudely towards you in anyway. Those are your beliefs, I just don't happen to share them. The following is just a true story that I and everyone else present at my local GW store found humourous. A man in perhaps his forties walks into the store, he resembles your everyday John Smith. He asks around what the place is and what they sell. Upon having a quick tour and a few minutes watching a bitterly fought game between Empire and Dwarven troops, he seems impressed, stating that "This game seems to encourage creativity, strategic thinking and hand-eye coordination. But, he then asks about the fluff and background of the game, ans upon hearing 'daemon', 'magic' and 'psychic power' he quite literally explodes in anger, yelling at everyone for endorsing witchcraft, demonology and that we are all being corrupted by the dark hand of the devil. He then storms out of the store muttering about how nothing is holy and how satan is corrupting the children. Has anyone had a similar experience with a religious person they know? Or maybe you just have a comment.
Look... yeah, we know they're ignorant of the hobby, don't bother looking into it, and take their religion word for word. That was common in the 80's with D&D. Religious fundies all over America were calling it Satanic and whatnot, and of course they're wrong, but there are still nutcases who listen to them (there's even one here on Dakka IIRC; won't get into that though).
I've been playing D&D for six years now, and I've never had the urge to sodomise a cat or sacrifice babies.
But anyway, it really is best to keep these kinds of threads off Dakka. It's not against the rules, but it seems to be really hard to have a thread involving religion without it devolving into a stinking heap of flaming and trolling on both sides of the religious divide.
When I was a 15 year old kid, my gran's evangelical church nutso friends all showed up at her house when I'd gone there after school. I was in another room watching tv when I heard them all gibbering away and so went to investigate. My gran had previously seen me reading my warhammer books and had asked in her rather hardcore born again church about it, they had formed an 'intervention mob'.
In the lounge, they had opened my schoolbag and taken out my copy of Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness and were waving it about and crying out about it's evil.
They told me that they would burn the book for me, then when I protested, they started screaming, pointing at me and telling my gran I had devils in me and then surrounded me (all 12 of them in a smallish lounge) and started trying to lay on hands and all started 'Speaking in Tongues' (if you've never been around a large group of people speaking in tongues, it's very scary, to me they were the ones possessed).
To my credit, since seeing all these people gibbering and frenzying and putting their hands on me and the rather disturbing sight of my own dear old gran praying and rolling her eyes and starting to speak in tongues (it's like finding yourself the only human left in 'The Bodysnatchers'). I held my ground and calmly and firmly repeatedly shouted that if they burned my bloody book, they were going to pay for a brand new one.
At that time, my Granddad returned from his work (he was a bus mechanic and had no interest in the 'holy rollers' my gran had joined up with). On seeing what was happening, that old guy, covered in engine oil stained overalls and a setting his toolbag down on the table, said very firmly.
"Right, you lot, out now. Wife, get my gammon and chips cooked. I'm gonna get a shower and if anyone is here when I get back downstairs that shouldn't be here, they'll be escorted outta my house by my foot up their ass..."
They all filed out rather sheepishly, other than one of the ringleaders who started to remonstrate my grandad for allowing me to fall into evil. Granddad just said, firmly but quietly "You do not sit in judgement, only God gets to do that my dear..." and she scurried out with the rest.
I held a strong dislike for all Christians for a long time through my teens and early 20s, until I grew the hell up and realised most Christians aren't cracked lunatic fringe bastards like the ones who took my gran in.
I am very pleased she is back attending Methodist chapel again and has little to do with those lunatics.
Cheese Elemental wrote:
I've been playing D&D for six years now, and I've never had the urge to sodomise a cat or sacrifice babies.
...Then you're doing it wrong...
If you can ever find it, there was a great article many years ago in Dragon magazine, called 'Angry Mothers from Hell' about the evangelical 'crusade' against D&D in the 80s. Frankly, whilst drug abuse, child prostitution, gang membership and murder, teenage depression and suicide all ravage the young, the decision of some in religious positions of power to 'go after' a bunch of geeks rolling dice is, in it's self, the real sin.
This movie was funded by an evangelical church, it starred a young Tom Hanks, who plays the game 'Mazes and Monsters' and then falls into evil and ends in a terrible tragedy...
MeanGreenStompa wrote:most Christians aren't cracked lunatic fringe bastards like the ones who took my gran in.
This is why all these threads get locked; instead of attacking the crazies, people lump all religious people in with the mad stories they hear. Nutters will always be nutters, even without the crazy religious leanings :(
I've got a few fundies in the family tree.... nothing more obnoxious than someone being so ignorant as to read the opening page of your 4th edition mini-rulebook (the Mcragge boxed set, clearly marked "Rule Book" in sizable letters on the cover) and then following up with a question as wantonly moronic as "So, do you believe all of this is real?" whilst you build plastic models.
I almost called a buddy of mine for an early ride home after that one. I don't tolerate willful ignorance too well.
My only other comment is that this woman also home-schools her kids. May their god have mercy on them, because reality certainly won't when their ignorance of things like actual science and how life in the real world works is revealed...
Dronze wrote:nothing more obnoxious than someone being so ignorant as to read the opening page of your 4th edition mini-rulebook (the Mcragge boxed set, clearly marked "Rule Book" in sizable letters on the cover) and then following up with a question as wantonly moronic as "So, do you believe all of this is real?" whilst you build plastic models.
I am always tempted to answer in the positive to questions like this. "Yes, the God-Emp sits in living death on a golden throne watching over us, protecting us from the daemons and evils of the warp while countless trillions of people fight and die each day on uncountable worlds in order to defend his dominion. Although I am too old now to undergo the alteration process to turn me into a 9 ft tall superhuman killing machine, wearing powered armour and weilding my faith in the aforementioned God-Emp in one hand, and a bolter in the other, I hope that one day I can be inducted into the ranks of the prisethood and divine the Emps wisdom from the reading of scrolls, portents and sacrifices in the name of the Emp, possibly while making a pilgramige through the stars to the shrines of Saints of the Imperium on a giant 2 mile long space cruiser."
When I was a teen, I had an aunt who flipped out because I was playing "Golden Axe" on the 386. She was/is a total wingnut. But she never had any problems begging for freebies from any of her extended family. In fact she quite willingly took the old NES and a handful of games, some of which had monsters (gasp!) to save a couple bucks.
On an aside, it's my mom's side of the family that is religious and there are a few preachers and whatnot. Every summer we'd visit this really lame camp/cottage spot for a night or two that they all went to. Anyway, the last year we went up there, one relative's wife (they were elderly) had somekind of brain problem and ended up with turrets [sic] syndrome. I remember her being driven around in a church golf cart dropping the "Feth" bomb every 2nd or 3rd word and calling my Golden Axe hating aunt a "cheap bag of fething gak."
Sounds like some guy form the 1600s who still burns witches..i never knew there were people like that..but then again there seems to be every type of person you can think of in the world
Unfortunately, sometimes this hits closer to home for some people than others. My twin brother is a member of one of these "crazies" type groups... and I'm ashamed to say I used to be as well.
Worst experience of my life looking back... mercifully, something woke me up to get the hell outta there. I am agnostic now, my wife is still very religious but we go to a NON-crazies church and everything's just fine.
I still resent some of the insinuations I feel is present in religion (i.e. we know the way and you don't, our way is better than yours) but I can also see the good in some of it (encouraging people to give to the poor, to help others). I just wish people could stick to the good and drop all of the my-way-or-the-highway, holier-than-thou rhetoric.
But yeah... my bro doesn't talk to me at all these days. I guess I'm a "heretic"... :-(
mattyboy22 wrote:You should have started chanting weird stuff, pointing at him, and rolling dice.
This would be hard to do IRL I think, but I think the idea is hilarious. It'd take some gonads to do it, though... something along the line's of MGS's grandad!
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I got the reference. Though I prefer to call it Elpis.
I hope you don't mind if I steal that name for my IG - all my valks/tanks/leader names are based in Greek and/or Greek mythology and that one would be great for my planned hospital valk
MeanGreenStompa wrote:When I was a 15 year old kid, my gran's evangelical church nutso friends all showed up at her house when I'd gone there after school. I was in another room watching tv when I heard them all gibbering away and so went to investigate. My gran had previously seen me reading my warhammer books and had asked in her rather hardcore born again church about it, they had formed an 'intervention mob'.
In the lounge, they had opened my schoolbag and taken out my copy of Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness and were waving it about and crying out about it's evil.
They told me that they would burn the book for me, then when I protested, they started screaming, pointing at me and telling my gran I had devils in me and then surrounded me (all 12 of them in a smallish lounge) and started trying to lay on hands and all started 'Speaking in Tongues' (if you've never been around a large group of people speaking in tongues, it's very scary, to me they were the ones possessed).
To my credit, since seeing all these people gibbering and frenzying and putting their hands on me and the rather disturbing sight of my own dear old gran praying and rolling her eyes and starting to speak in tongues (it's like finding yourself the only human left in 'The Bodysnatchers'). I held my ground and calmly and firmly repeatedly shouted that if they burned my bloody book, they were going to pay for a brand new one.
At that time, my Granddad returned from his work (he was a bus mechanic and had no interest in the 'holy rollers' my gran had joined up with). On seeing what was happening, that old guy, covered in engine oil stained overalls and a setting his toolbag down on the table, said very firmly.
"Right, you lot, out now. Wife, get my gammon and chips cooked. I'm gonna get a shower and if anyone is here when I get back downstairs that shouldn't be here, they'll be escorted outta my house by my foot up their ass..."
They all filed out rather sheepishly, other than one of the ringleaders who started to remonstrate my grandad for allowing me to fall into evil. Granddad just said, firmly but quietly "You do not sit in judgement, only God gets to do that my dear..." and she scurried out with the rest.
I held a strong dislike for all Christians for a long time through my teens and early 20s, until I grew the hell up and realised most Christians aren't cracked lunatic fringe bastards like the ones who took my gran in.
I am very pleased she is back attending Methodist chapel again and has little to do with those lunatics.
MGS's grandad for the Win! Our granddads were aweomse weren't they.
TBone concurs
I start by saying that I am a born again Christain and I play 40K and D&D. My FLGS is right next to a church. We have had a few people stop to ask and (when I'm there) I can usually make them understand. The only person who really didn't like it, accepted it when my 7 year old daughter who is starting to play Magic stated rather blatently "It's only a game, even I know that" and then showed us her new card (she plays a white deck that has alot of angel cards).
Wow!... I've never seen anything like that. As a Christian and quite often the only religious man in the gaming shop. I can state that people like that do more harm, than the good they think they are doing. In fact I rarely bring the issue up(Christianity), if at all, because I have rarely felt lead to. It's a common known thing among Christians, that you can witness with your life, a lot of the time, much better than with your mouth.
generalgrog wrote:Wow!... I've never seen anything like that. As a Christian and quite often the only religious man in the gaming shop. I can state that people like that do more harm, than the good they think they are doing. In fact I rarely bring the issue up(Christianity), if at all, because I have rarely felt lead to. It's a common known thing among Christians, that you can witness with your life, a lot of the time, much better than with your mouth.
GG
I'm with you 100% there. It's a very bad example to show people. Like the people a years ago who went running down the street swinging swords becauae they played D&D. That's now what people think if you mention D&D. They forget that things like that work both ways. It causes people to sterotype religion automaticly with anti gameing. Makes it harder for everyone.
I don't bring it up, but I don't hide it. I have gotten odd looks from new people when I tell them I can play Sunday afternoon after church. Or Weds I'll hang out while my daughter is at AWANA (think church scouts). I have 1 friend from my FLGS who has started attending my church because of me.
Years ago I got the perfect ammunition to deal with crazies.
I play D&D. I have for years. Crazies can say whatever they want. All I ever tell them is this:
If it is evil, how come my first real GAMEMaster was the priest at the church next door to my house, and we played IN THE CHURCH.
Ocassionally I will use that argument to attack them and say that makes ALL church and religion devil worship, but I need to be in a pretty foul mood to do that.
Off topic mode on:
For clarification as I can see how this thread comes up and is easily shut down...
Most crazies who embrace religious fanaticism (not regular, go-to-church-on-Sunday-and-work-on-being-excellent to each other) were crazy in the first place, religion or not.
Many people who embrace a religion do so willingly, just as we gamers play our games willingly.
This can easily devolve into an attack/defend religion thread, which ends up getting locked and accomplishes nothing.
Topic back On:
Yes, I have been the victim of religious fanatics who attacked my D&D playing when I was 12, stating I would burn in hell for obviously aligning with the devil. Even back then in the early 80's, I let them know that it's just a game and no I don't sacrifice small animals to the dark gods.
The only way the crazies could be handled was by letting them know they could be as crazy as they want, just not around me, politely at first, forcefully if they still didn't get the message. Never argue with a fanatic! There is no logic that they are following and only gives them more fuel to annoy you!
Texas is very Baptist. Every once in a while some congregation member will remember the whole "games with spells in them are evil" or the "Harry Potter endorses witchcraft and satan!" and start some crusade. There are bigger and badder problems to deal with out there: drugs, crime, abuse. Games are the least of their problems but one of the easiest to target.
It only makes me laugh as I remember Dana Carvey's Church Lady skit from the 80s. Do like Mel Brooks and make fun of them.
Frazzled wrote:Its funny. I've never had this as an issue, never even heard about it as an issue in real life, only on the intranets. learn something every day.
One of my old D&D/D20 group was Christian - used to do lots of church activities and ran youth groups etc. He obviously never had a problem with the subjects in D&D and other related games, and as far as I am aware, no one in his church had a problem with him playing such games.
He never tried to convert us, and we never tried to strip him of his belief (there was of course plenty of friendly banter on the subject, but it was all tongue in cheek and friendly).
Based on my personal experiences of "Christians-In-Gaming", all Christians gamers are nice and friendly and enjoy playing games
I like the God Emperor in 40K. He has a lot of wonderful messianic qualities. He's not the Lord Jesus Christ, but he has some of His qualities. I specifically picked the inquisition Sisters of Battle because of their piety and purity (and incredible cuteness, I'll admit). I think the God Emperor is as good as 'Aslan' for illustrating some lovely spiritual concepts I like, for example, how modern thinking people have a very dim view of the crusades, but realize in 40K that a higher moral authority (The God Emperor) can make something like the crusades actually virtuous and holy. Exterminatus? No problem! Yes, it's just a game, I know, but it's fun to think about. (The nature of religion in general I mean, not the saturation bombing of planets so much...)
As a born again fundimentalist christian, I have no problems with War Hammer and RPG's. Yes, it is all make believe and it is more important in my opinion on what you do with it. When I first got married I was not religious but my wife was. She was unsure of my hobbies but after watching us play she has no problems with it. She now plays but refuses to use spell casters. I can respect her descision on doing that. Is there a lot of ignorance in regards to the games(goes beyond religion). Yes. But a lot of things have been used for bad. That is one of the things that kept me from religion for the longest times. It is not always the book or product but the people.
I don't bring up the subject of religion at my flg(even with the owner being christian). I let other people bring it up. It usually is brought up through the topic of my tats.
If a person is not religious, it really is not my problem. Just as was stated earlier it is usually easier and better to witness by the way you lead your life.
I just tell 'em that I'm a servant of satan and they better not mess with me or I'll put a curse on them and their entire family. That usually gets rid of them.
Maxstreel wrote:Off topic mode on:
For clarification as I can see how this thread comes up and is easily shut down...
Most crazies who embrace religious fanaticism (not regular, go-to-church-on-Sunday-and-work-on-being-excellent to each other) were crazy in the first place, religion or not.
Many people who embrace a religion do so willingly, just as we gamers play our games willingly.
While I think this is partially true, having a brother still in a group like this makes me think it's much too general to just say they were "crazy in the first place". He wasn't crazy that I could tell. He was valedictorian of our high school, well respected in college- just drank too much kool-aid and went off the deep end, imho.
Also, like I said I was a part of this same group. Upon leaving, I felt tricked and manipulated by what had caused me to join/stay/etc. However, there was definitely something about me that made me susceptible to it... and susceptible to doing those things of my own free will. But it doesn't mean that I would have done them if I hadn't been greatly influenced to by the group.
So I think what you're saying is partially true, but overly simplistic. There's some onus on the person, but some on the group as well... I like to think that I'm very normal now, agnostic but not wanting to push my way on anybody (or have them push their way on me).
Which makes games of toy soldiers all the more fun... since none of that shizz really comes into play
Cheese Elemental wrote:I've been playing D&D for six years now, and I've never had the urge to sodomise a cat or sacrifice babies.
You're playing it wrong.
EDIT
Gyaargh! MGS beat me to it, smashed me even.
Ah well, ummm... how about 'Clearly you haven't reached tenth level.'
Meanwhile, I've met a fair few Christian gamers in my life, but I've never met a Christian that had a problem with any kind of gaming. I've met a lot of gamers who were pretty antagonistic to religion though, so take from it all what you want.
Ive never understood why people get angry about dungeons and dragons and fantasy and such.. i mean, whats the big problem? How can it affect people in real life?
Its not like anybody is going to pick up a dusty old book of ridiculous fantasy stories involving magic and demons and stuff and actually think it is real and let it affect their real lives in any tangible way.......
at my FLGS we got this one kid that plays Yu-Gi-Oh! on Saturdays in the tournament we have. His mother views the store as a den of sin and that only those who will be eternally damned go in and read comics, and play cards (the shop doesn't do minis, have to go to Sci-Fi for minis) She came up and started preaching to me a few days ago about this when her son had gone in without her permission about how i was going to hell. I asked her what religion she was and she told me she was Catholic. I'm Catholic and we tend to be the least judgemental and damning of the Christian religions on the bible belt. So I pulled out my roasry and she started screaming.
The crazies are always crazy they just need an outlet. Religion didn't do it, the idiotic people that think everything is evil and demonic do this.
Automatically Appended Next Post: figure i should add that my grandparents are the same way but i am their prodigy child. They don't like the fact that i play WoD, D&D, Dark Heresy, Scion, Shadowrun, or Spycraft (just to name a few). They think all my friend's are cultist. I find it lulzy.
I have never met any Christians playing Warhammer, but i`m sure most of the anti-gaming Christians are fanatics regardless of religion. I do know a guy named Christian though
As someone who is very religious, and does in fact, to use mattyrm's words "going to pick up a dusty old book of ridiculous fantasy stories involving magic and demons and stuff and actually think it is real and let it affect their real lives in any tangible way......."
I must confess I don't understand some of the more insane wacko levels of Christianity (as someone who keeps the Levitical holy days and attends church on the sabbath, I'm throwing stones in glass houses here). Yes, D&D, 40K, LOTR and many other mythos' portray daemons and witches and heretcal elements, but the one thing that no one seems to grasp is that in nearly every case they're portrayed as the VILLAINS of the piece.
Frazzled wrote:Its funny. I've never had this as an issue, never even heard about it as an issue in real life, only on the intranets. learn something every day.
IME it was MUCH more common in the 80s, prior to mass use of the internet. I heard about it regularly back then, in gaming magazines and from fellow gamers that I met. I had a couple of relatives and one babysitter express religiously-motivated ignorant junk about D&D. Mostly I just kept quiet about it around them. It’s much rarer nowadays, as far as I can tell.
When I was in a club we shared our premises (a community centre) with an evangelical group called The Church of God.
There was never any friction except that they had booked the hall solid for every weekend of the year, which stopped us from playing big naval games except on Bank Holidays.
Church of God, eh? Yeah, they're real evangelical-types. How much of a pain in the ass they are depends entirely on the pastor - our local branch runs a food pantry for the poor and are generally decent folks.
Well once a man came in and looked at the various armies. I think he saw my CSM or the Daemon players army. So he says "You should leave your faith in god" We ignore him and after I mention "Daemonic Possession ignores that rule" The man then said "By the holy saviour your soul is damned!"
Fed up with him I unhooked my ipod and played Disciple by Slayer and screamed in a deathgrowl.
WvLopp wrote: She was unsure of my hobbies but after watching us play she has no problems with it. She now plays but refuses to use spell casters.
This... This is what I don't get about christian gamers. The above statement is completely contradictory, taken from the context it was given in. It's obvious that she DOES have problems with the game, as her refusal, as stated by the context of your post, is based in her personal beliefs, not just some personal playstyle choice. It's like christian M:tG players refusing to play a deck with black or red cards in it.
If you're going to play a game, play the game. Don't sit there and try to say that you don't have an issue with the game when it's exceedingly clear, by your own list building and justification, that you do. These things are plastic, resin, and metal, and are still not as graphic or offensive as, in the case of christians, specifically, one of the most inhumane implments of torture and execution ever created, and the depicion of someone being subjected to it's ministrations in a manner far MORE sadistic than the usual ropes. You will find at least one of these totems in their building of worship, usually hanging in a prominant location. The game is just that, a game. Someone making a daemon rending someone in two, with the depiction of all the vicera and violence that would come with such an act is merely depicting a piece of fiction in an illustrative format. The cross was widely used for several centuries as a means of execution, via asphyxiation, and thus, whether or not the protagonist of their holy book lived and walked, there have been tens of thousands of people killed in such a matter, making it a reenactment for the sake of scaring one into submission.
But I've gone off on a tangent, allow me to bring myself back to the topic at hand.
If you're going to play a game, with the understanding that it is just that, a game, a pile of plastic or paper used to simulate some kind of struggle or competition, then why should it matter what the alignment of the stat box for one of these pieces of resin, metal or plastic is? That's like saying that black spells in Magic are inherantly evil, or that rolling those spell dice are going to cause a giant fireball to fall from the sky and hit the table. It's an abstraction of a free-flowing work of fiction, not some pagan ritual designed to call up the spirits of Evil Lincoln and Belhwalistalimoogawrox, The Eater Of Cheetos and Eternity, so why try to make a point by not taking a unit choice out of fear that it's not what your diety of choice wants you to play?
Dronze, I think it's more a factor of "comfort level". I don't think people are trying to "make a point" by not using spell casters. Spell casters can be loosely parrelled with witchcraft. And the person in question may have an issue with identifying themselves with witchcraft, even in a make believe environment such as D&D. I don't personally have that issue, but I wouldn't judge someone if they did.
I love the models that GW makes for Chaos demons, but I don't think I would be comfortable playing an army made up entirely of little representations of the demonic. Yes I know they are little plastic toys, but I would rather play with the little plastic toys that sends them back to the warp.
Also, think about explaining to your pastor(if you had one). Oh yeah this is my demonic Bloodthirster of Korne, and that little guy with pus and gore over there is my Great Unlean Demon of nurgle. Not really a great conversation starter for someone that isn't in on the game.
There are close-minded religious people and there are closed-minded non-religious people. This thread is about closed-minded religious people thinking fantasy and games corrupt people and so disparage all fantasy and games. What bothers me is there are some close-minded non-religious people in this thread who disparage all religious people based on these experiences/stories.
I've been on the receiving end of both these categories.
One time while playing Warhammer Quest in my FLGS a woman asked if this was the game that made people kill themselves. Years later while working in the same FLGS after 9-11 a regular spoke positively about Muslim extremists killing Christians because he hated Christians.
generalgrog wrote:Dronze, I think it's more a factor of "comfort level".
If one is uncomfortable with the thematic elements of a game, then why are the playing it? If you play a game of 40k, and you never use psykers on the basis of it's occult standpoint as opposed to just not playing psykers because you don't have a legitimate use for them in your list, you're making the point that you think that whatever is happening on the table has some analog to real life. It's a game mechanic, nothing more. This being said, I can only come to a single conclusion of that point:
People who make that degree of justification are only incapable of suspension of disbelief abecause they are incapable of actual disbelief. Witchcraft is only deemed as dangerous by those who actually believe that it works, not by those who don't.
I don't think people are trying to "make a point" by not using spell casters. Spell casters can be loosely parrelled with witchcraft. And the person in question may have an issue with identifying themselves with witchcraft, even in a make believe environment such as D&D.
Wow... this one is easy... They ARE trying to make a point. The argument that you followed your statement actually helps my case, as it almost, word for word, less typos and punctuation errors, shows the point they're trying to make.
They are trying to separate themselves from the parts of the game that they seem to have an issue with in real life. It would seem that the subject in question has no issue with genocide, xenophobia, or war in general, as long as the occult isn't involved in it. Witchcraft and the occult seems to be rather obscure thematic elements to have an issue with within a game.
I don't personally have that issue, but I wouldn't judge someone if they did.
Glad you don't, but I, personally, will label them hypocrites and/or ethical monsters on that basis, as that's what they are. If I saw someone refusing to play Chaos Daemons on the basis of religion, then going to pick up a box of IG or SMs, I'd be forced to facepalm until they collapsed into oblivion. Then again, well, my views on religion and the individual aren't the topic of conversation here, so I'll just make the point of stating the obvious: Most Tabletop Miniatures Games are set up in such a fashion that the ethical, or even the moral aspect of the fight at hand is removed from the field. It is a fight for a fight's sake, nothing more, nothing less. There are no "Heros" or "Villains" here, only soldiers.
I love the models that GW makes for Chaos demons, but I don't think I would be comfortable playing an army made up entirely of little representations of the demonic. Yes I know they are little plastic toys, but I would rather play with the little plastic toys that sends them back to the warp.
You mean the ones that have no issue with a conscious decision to commit genocide, according to their fluff? Good to know where your moral compass
is aligned.
Also, think about explaining to your pastor(if you had one). Oh yeah this is my demonic Bloodthirster of Korne, and that little guy with pus and gore over there is my Great Unlean Demon of nurgle. Not really a great conversation starter for someone that isn't in on the game.
I dunno, I guess it depends on if the person can see the quality of sculpture, rather than just seeing an ill omen bringing damnation and misery on the heads of the congregation. Besides, if someone is in your home, and you've got your armies promenantly displayed, is that not considered to be committing the sin of pride, at best, or the sin of idolatry at worst?
They're game mechanics, and if people can't seem to understand that, then I'm going to be forced to carry out the rolling of 10,000 dice, so that I may summon Belhwalistalimoogawrox, who will open his great maw, and come streaming from the quiet commercial park that they keep the internet saved to, into your home in order to eat all of your Cheetos and eternity.
Glad you don't, but I, personally, will label them hypocrites and/or ethical monsters on that basis, as that's what they are. If I saw someone refusing to play Chaos Daemons on the basis of religion, then going to pick up a box of IG or SMs,
Really, they are monsters because they don't want to play magic users? I always thought magic users were [rhymes with wussies] myself.
Dude thats like about a 9 on the tension scale. You might try meditation or some light exercise to mellow the out a little bit. And if Frazzled is saying you need to mellow out, it means you're about 30 minutes out from a major coronary.
Glad you don't, but I, personally, will label them hypocrites and/or ethical monsters on that basis, as that's what they are. If I saw someone refusing to play Chaos Daemons on the basis of religion, then going to pick up a box of IG or SMs,
Really, they are monsters because they don't want to play magic users? I always thought magic users were [rhymes with wussies] myself.
Dude thats like about a 9 on the tension scale. You might try meditation or some light exercise to mellow the out a little bit. And if Frazzled is saying you need to mellow out, it means you're about 30 minutes out from a major coronary.
Allow me to open out that argument a touch...
Given Point #1: The subject in question plays a GW Tabletop Wargame
Given Point #2: Common Thematic elements of this wargame include Witchcraft
Given Point #3: The subject is uncomfortable with the idea of witchcraft on a religious basis.
Given point #4: On the basis of assumption #3, the subject will not play with a unit that uses magic.
Given Point #5: The poster I was responding to plays either WHF or WH40K, the inspiration for this hypothetical player being his wife.
Based on these 5 logical and, AFAIK, true, statements, I can make the following inferrences:
#1 Based on Given Points #1, #2 ,#3 and #5, the subject is aware of the thematic elements of the game, which include not only witchcraft, but wholesale genocide (a full third of the games one can play, based on the rulebook), religious persecution, and xenophobia, themes found throughout the source materials and side material for the game.
#2 Based on Given Points #1, #2, #3 and #4, because the user is uncomfortable with one thematic element, but will still play a list that is lacking said element, that suggests complacency with genocide, religious persecution, and xenophobia.
#3 Based on Given Points #1 and #3 and Inferrance #2, the subject does not have enough of an issue with the game to not play, as well as the opinion of the poster I was responding to (preferring to play the "good guys"), this suggests that, as long as the victimized doesn't agree with me (assumed under the basis that there are actually "Good guys" and "Bad guys"), it's alright to persecute and kill them in the game.
#4 Based on Given point #3, we can infer that the subject links, on some degree, the tabletop and real life.
#5 Based on Given point #3 and inferrances #3 and #4 that they are complacent in genocide and religious persecution.
I think my opinion on the matter was well spoken, and well thought out, based on the available logical inputs.
generalgrog wrote:Yeah it's obvious that some people don't know how to have a rational discussion without resorting to insults. But hey it's the internet.
Dronze wrote:
I think my opinion on the matter was well spoken, and well thought out, based on the available logical inputs.
It was.
generalgrog wrote:Yeah it's obvious that some people don't know how to have a rational discussion without resorting to insults. But hey it's the internet.
At some point discussion has to become descriptive, and that will inevitably lead to someone feeling insulted. Its important to distinguish between someone who intends to insult, and someone who merely says something which others find insulting.
Glad you don't, but I, personally, will label them hypocrites and/or ethical monsters on that basis, as that's what they are. If I saw someone refusing to play Chaos Daemons on the basis of religion, then going to pick up a box of IG or SMs,
Really, they are monsters because they don't want to play magic users? I always thought magic users were [rhymes with wussies] myself.
Dude thats like about a 9 on the tension scale. You might try meditation or some light exercise to mellow the out a little bit. And if Frazzled is saying you need to mellow out, it means you're about 30 minutes out from a major coronary.
Allow me to open out that argument a touch...
Given Point #1: The subject in question plays a GW Tabletop Wargame
Given Point #2: Common Thematic elements of this wargame include Witchcraft
Given Point #3: The subject is uncomfortable with the idea of witchcraft on a religious basis.
Given point #4: On the basis of assumption #3, the subject will not play with a unit that uses magic.
Given Point #5: The poster I was responding to plays either WHF or WH40K, the inspiration for this hypothetical player being his wife.
Based on these 4 logical and, AFAIK, true, statements, I can make the following inferrences:
#1 Based on Given Points #1, #2 ,#3 and #5, the subject is aware of the thematic elements of the game, which include not only witchcraft, but wholesale genocide (a full third of the games one can play, based on the rulebook), religious persecution, and xenophobia, themes found throughout the source materials and side material for the game.
#2 Based on Given Points #1, #2, #3 and #4, because the user is uncomfortable with one thematic element, but will still play a list that is lacking said element, that suggests complacency with genocide, religious persecution, and xenophobia.
#3 Based on Given Points #1 and #3 and Inferrance #2, the subject does not have enough of an issue with the game to not play, as well as the opinion of the poster I was responding to (preferring to play the "good guys"), this suggests that, as long as the victimized doesn't agree with me (assumed under the basis that there are actually "Good guys" and "Bad guys"), it's alright to persecute and kill them in the game.
#4 Based on Given point #3, we can infer that the subject links, on some degree, the tabletop and real life.
#5 Based on Given point #3 and inferrances #3 and #4 that they are complacent in genocide and religious persecution.
I think my opinion on the matter was well spoken, and well thought out, based on the available logical inputs.
Edited for the sake of emphasis of my own point.
Too many numbers! I can only add that high if it involved fee income! Thats ok, the Masked Avenger will protect us.
Dronze wrote:#2 Based on Given Points #1, #2, #3 and #4, because the user is uncomfortable with one thematic element, but will still play a list that is lacking said element, that suggests complacency with genocide, religious persecution, and xenophobia.
I disagree with your assertion that they are complacent with genocide, religious persecution, and xenophobia. By your reasoning, if someone played Warhammer and included Fimir in their army you would infer that they are complacent with rape. If they played a Khorne army they'd be complacent with murder and hate. Just because the person has a hang-up where they don't feel comfortable personally "role-playing" a certain element of a game doesn't mean they approve of every other element that could be disagreeable to some or all.
This thread has, like all threads on religion, devolved into stupidity. I mean, how can someone seriously claim that because one does play this game it is considered tacit approval to genocide, murder, etc., and in the same breath call them "ethical monsters" for ignoring the witchcraft or demonic element. Seriously dude, grow up and go paint some minis. Let people enjoy the hobby the way they see fit and shut up.
While I personally might think that being uncomfortable running a daemon army seems a bit silly, I can understand it more when I picture myself running an SS-based army in a WWII game. I personally wouldn't be interested in running a true Nazi force (though a regular wehrmacht might be cool), and I might be concerned about what people thought I was identifying with did I indeed field an army with swastika iconography.
When I think about that example, I can wrap my head around the idea of not wanting to field daemons.
dogma wrote:At some point discussion has to become descriptive, and that will inevitably lead to someone feeling insulted. Its important to distinguish between someone who intends to insult, and someone who merely says something which others find insulting.
dogma I really don't get you. I don't understand how you can't understand that calling someone a hypocrite/ethical monster is insulting. It has nothing to do with someone "feeling" insulted. Unless you think calling someone a hypocrite/ethical monster is a compliment?
I really think you take positions sometimes, just for the fun of it, not because you really believe it.
Dude, love your avatar! I do that with my cat all the time. The Schmisser Meow-chine gun. "Take that Mrs. Khornholio! Meow!Meow!Meow!Meow!Meow!Meow!Meow!Meow! Click. Click. Out of ammo."
Years ago Wizards of the Coast stopped printing any MTG cards being or referring to demons, devils and such because of complaints/pressure from certain religious groups, which lasted for quite some time (I am not sure exactly how long).
I think the key to remember is that religion (and speaking about christianity in particular) is a spectrum. You have crazy people, and you have normal people.
Whatever faith system you approach life with, there are certainly
A) people who embarass you
B) think your game is stupid/offensive.
Christianity and other religions are no different. In the same way that some people will always look down on our hobby because "they're not nerds" there are Christians who will look down on it for "relation to witchcraft."
generalgrog wrote:
dogma I really don't get you. I don't understand how you can't understand that calling someone a hypocrite/ethical monster is insulting. It has nothing to do with someone "feeling" insulted.
Of course it does. If someone acknowledged that they were, in fact, an ethical monster (that phrase seems contradictory) and felt no indignity at the recognition, then there would be no insult; simply accurate description. Unless the intent of the speaker was to insult, in which case there might be room for that classification. Of course, most people aren't ethical monsters, and most ethical monsters probably don't want attention drawn to that status, so in most instances such a comment will be an insult. Most, but not all; meaning that the comment itself is not intrinsically insulting.
generalgrog wrote:
Unless you think calling someone a hypocrite/ethical monster is a compliment?
No, I believe they're descriptive statements. If applied in instances in which they are not applicable, they are insults, if applied in instances in which they are applicable, they aren't insults. They could be considered compliments by an individual, or society, which valued hypocrisy and immoral behavior.
JEB wrote:This thread has, like all threads on religion, devolved into stupidity. I mean, how can someone seriously claim that because one does play this game it is considered tacit approval to genocide, murder, etc., and in the same breath call them "ethical monsters" for ignoring the witchcraft or demonic element. Seriously dude, grow up and go paint some minis. Let people enjoy the hobby the way they see fit and shut up.
Bit harsh, JEB. I think what he was driving at was that if you are uncomfortable with playing Daemons, why should you be any more comfortable playing Space Fascists *ahem* Marines?
p.s. Is Magic/witchcraft even mentioned in the Bible/Qu'ran/Torah? I was just wondering if it was explicitly forbidden in scripture or if it was just cultural thing.
Dronze wrote:I've got a few fundies in the family tree.... nothing more obnoxious than someone being so ignorant as to read the opening page of your 4th edition mini-rulebook (the Mcragge boxed set, clearly marked "Rule Book" in sizable letters on the cover) and then following up with a question as wantonly moronic as "So, do you believe all of this is real?" whilst you build plastic models.
I almost called a buddy of mine for an early ride home after that one. I don't tolerate willful ignorance too well.
My only other comment is that this woman also home-schools her kids. May their god have mercy on them, because reality certainly won't when their ignorance of things like actual science and how life in the real world works is revealed...
Yeah, for some reason very religious people have difficulties distinguishing a fictional book filled with gods, devils, heroes and monsters from reality.
Dronze wrote:#2 Based on Given Points #1, #2, #3 and #4, because the user is uncomfortable with one thematic element, but will still play a list that is lacking said element, that suggests complacency with genocide, religious persecution, and xenophobia.
I disagree with your assertion that they are complacent with genocide, religious persecution, and xenophobia. By your reasoning, if someone played Warhammer and included Fimir in their army you would infer that they are complacent with rape. If they played a Khorne army they'd be complacent with murder and hate. Just because the person has a hang-up where they don't feel comfortable personally "role-playing" a certain element of a game doesn't mean they approve of every other element that could be disagreeable to some or all.
If they had made the decisions within the pretexts given, that could very well logically hold true. The scope of my argument is not general. the scope of my argument is specific. If the subject has an issue with whichcraft, then fine, whatever, good on them. It is their choice, as that is freedom of religion. If the subject has an issue with a game mechanic that they don't like, and thus don't take psykers as a result, then bully for them as well. My issue is when you take the first statement:
"If the subject has an issue with whichcraft"
And then you merge it with the second half of the second statement:
"and thus don't take psykers as a result"
This is where the ethical issue comes in. If you are choosing not to run casters in a game because you have an issue with the fact that they use a game mechanic that "simulates" casting a spell in an abstraction of a battle in a science fiction or fantasy setting, then you are generically saying that you've got no issue with any of the other real-life analogues within the thematic elements of the game.
Hence: People who use real-life, moral justification for not utilizing a game mechanic should also be applying that same justification in their choice to play the rest of the game.
Ultimately, if your blanket statements fell into the scope of my narrow, conditional arguments then yes, that would be true. A player who, on moral grounds, refuses to play witches or psykers, who then chooses to play a Khornate army, would, indeed, be complacent with murder, hate, and even corpse mutilation. Just like a player who, on moral grounds, refuses to play Chaos Daemons, but then included Fimir in their list could be called complacent to rape.
This does not mean that a player who, in wanting to run a fluffy army, chooses to run a Khornate army, would be complacent in such things, as they are making their decision in the spirit of the game, rather than some twisted moral justification that the subject, in their own free will, picks and chooses what parts of the game they're actually offended by, and by process of elimination, have no overt issue with.
Of course, that issue can be resolved from a standpoint of valuation.
Simply because someone refuses to utilize a given game mechanic on moral grounds it does not follow that they do not have a moral issue with other game mechanics which they do employ. All that is implied is that the moral imperative is sufficient, in the case of a simulation of witchcraft, to make the gamer in question feel uncomfortable. He may also have a moral issue with genocide, murder, war, or rape, but that issue isn't strong enough to be made manifest in the context of a war game.
Now, you could claim that such a view trivializes those members of the latter list, or you could argue that it doesn't, and the person in question just really dislikes witchcraft. There isn't enough information to reach a comprehensive conclusion.
Additionally, it could also be argued that witchcraft is fundamentally distinct from things like genocide, as it involves immaterial concepts, rather than strictly material ones; eg. a simulation of witchcraft is not like a simulation of violence.
@dogma: Person A limits themselves in participating from Activity B, be it in real-life or fantasy gaming. Person A engages in Activity C during fantasy gaming. Therefore, person A approves of Activity C in real life as well? I'm going to give you my highest level of reprimand:
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:@dogma: Person A limits themselves in participating from Activity B, be it in real-life or fantasy gaming. Person A engages in Activity C during fantasy gaming. Therefore, person A approves of Activity C in real life as well? I'm going to give you my highest level of reprimand:
No, that isn't what I wrote. Thanks for playing though.
In any case, this entire conversation is being carried out in the context of a person who does refrain from elements gaming because it correlates to something which he considers to be reprehensible in real life; thus establishing the cross-over in a particular case.
Albatross wrote:Bit harsh, JEB. I think what he was driving at was that if you are uncomfortable with playing Daemons, why should you be any more comfortable playing Space Fascists *ahem* Marines?
We're a strange mob, and what does bother us generally makes little sense in the context of what doesn't.
I wouldn't play SS troops in FoW, but I'd happily play regular Wehrmacht, despite being fully aware that the regular Wehrmacht also committed a vast number of atrocities. I'd play pirates or viking raiders, and we all know what they really got up to. I guess what a soldier really was isn't as big a deal as what a soldier makes us think of when we're playing them - I can see a Wehrmacht soldier and think 'German dude', I can't see an SS guy without thinking 'Nazi bastard'.
If someone likes the game but is uncomfortable with spellcasting, well let 'em play, it ain't a big thing. It might even encourage a unique playing style. I quite like the idea of an Eldar army that doesn't have Eldrad.
p.s. Is Magic/witchcraft even mentioned in the Bible/Qu'ran/Torah? I was just wondering if it was explicitly forbidden in scripture or if it was just cultural thing.
I don't think so. I know that magic isn't, but i'm not sure about witchcraft. But in all honesty, scripture doesn't mention any of these themes we're talking about very often anyway. Demons and satan are mentioned in the bible, but I don't think they are brought up all the time.
In the OT (Old Testament, not Off-Topic forum ) I believe witchcraft is mentioned and forbidden several times...
However, there is a funny instance in that a king of Israel (Saul, I believe) goes to a diviner of some kind, who raises the dead spirit of Samuel (the prophet who predicted he'd be king, and then anointed David king later) to ask him a question.
These kinds of things are usually explained away by saying that in the OT people did a lot of things that god didn't approve of... but I think it's kind of funny.
Like I said I'm agnostic and all that... but I still know a pretty good bit about that stuff from back in the day...
Albatross wrote:
p.s. Is Magic/witchcraft even mentioned in the Bible/Qu'ran/Torah? I was just wondering if it was explicitly forbidden in scripture or if it was just cultural thing.
Did a quick search for you.
Not sure which version this is.
Deut 18:10
"There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer"
Deut 18:14
"For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do so."
1 Samuel 15:23
"For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king."
2 Kings 17:17
"Then they made their sons and their daughters pass through the fire, and practiced divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him."
2 Kings 21:6
"He made his son pass through the fire, practiced witchcraft and used divination, and dealt with mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD provoking Him to anger."
2 Chron 33:6
"He made his sons pass through the fire in the valley of Ben-hinnom; and he practiced witchcraft, used divination, practiced sorcery and dealt with mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him to anger."
Acts19:19
And many of those who practiced magic brought their books together and began burning them in the sight of everyone; and they counted up the price of them and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.
Ga 5:20* idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Re 18:23* and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_controversies Seemed relevent. Lets just be happy that video games got rid of the heat from us wargamers. But honestly if my grandparents found out ever about the fluff before they died(god rest there souls) they might had a real cow. my mom might to. luckily they werent that interested. But I might have to answer them about it when i get to heaven.
Hence: People who use real-life, moral justification for not utilizing a game mechanic should also be applying that same justification in their choice to play the rest of the game.
@dronze I have to disagree. I play Flames of War and it is not uncommon to run across players that refuse to play Waffen SS. They understand fielding SS would NOT make them a NAZI, but they are still uncomfortable with it.
Mannahnin wrote:As the risk of coming close to Godwin's Law...
While I personally might think that being uncomfortable running a daemon army seems a bit silly, I can understand it more when I picture myself running an SS-based army in a WWII game. I personally wouldn't be interested in running a true Nazi force (though a regular wehrmacht might be cool), and I might be concerned about what people thought I was identifying with did I indeed field an army with swastika iconography.
When I think about that example, I can wrap my head around the idea of not wanting to field daemons.
That's exactly my thoughts (and why I play neither Daemons or WWII German forces)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Albatross wrote:p.s. Is Magic/witchcraft even mentioned in the Bible/Qu'ran/Torah? I was just wondering if it was explicitly forbidden in scripture or if it was just cultural thing.
In addition to the passages citeabove, there is this passage, commonly referred to as the "Witch of Endor"
1 Samuel 28, King James Version wrote: 3Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.
4And the Philistines gathered themselves together, and came and pitched in Shunem: and Saul gathered all Israel together, and they pitched in Gilboa.
5And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled.
6And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
7Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
8And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
9And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
Dronze wrote:This is where the ethical issue comes in. If you are choosing not to run casters in a game because you have an issue with the fact that they use a game mechanic that "simulates" casting a spell in an abstraction of a battle in a science fiction or fantasy setting, then you are generically saying that you've got no issue with any of the other real-life analogues within the thematic elements of the game.
Hence: People who use real-life, moral justification for not utilizing a game mechanic should also be applying that same justification in their choice to play the rest of the game.
Ultimately, if your blanket statements fell into the scope of my narrow, conditional arguments then yes, that would be true. A player who, on moral grounds, refuses to play witches or psykers, who then chooses to play a Khornate army, would, indeed, be complacent with murder, hate, and even corpse mutilation. Just like a player who, on moral grounds, refuses to play Chaos Daemons, but then included Fimir in their list could be called complacent to rape.
While your point is logical, I don't think it's necessarily sensible to say that a person is beholden to be consistent in what they feel comfortable or uncomfortable with; at least in something as generally unimportant as wargaming.
A person has much more to fear from a wasp than a garter snake, but there are still people who cannot stand snakes - and knowing that the garter snake s harmless doesn't seem to matter much, they know it's an emotional reaction.
Dronze wrote:This is where the ethical issue comes in. If you are choosing not to run casters in a game because you have an issue with the fact that they use a game mechanic that "simulates" casting a spell in an abstraction of a battle in a science fiction or fantasy setting, then you are generically saying that you've got no issue with any of the other real-life analogues within the thematic elements of the game.
Hence: People who use real-life, moral justification for not utilizing a game mechanic should also be applying that same justification in their choice to play the rest of the game.
Ultimately, if your blanket statements fell into the scope of my narrow, conditional arguments then yes, that would be true. A player who, on moral grounds, refuses to play witches or psykers, who then chooses to play a Khornate army, would, indeed, be complacent with murder, hate, and even corpse mutilation. Just like a player who, on moral grounds, refuses to play Chaos Daemons, but then included Fimir in their list could be called complacent to rape.
While your point is logical, I don't think it's necessarily sensible to say that a person is beholden to be consistent in what they feel comfortable or uncomfortable with; at least in something as generally unimportant as wargaming.
A person has much more to fear from a wasp than a garter snake, but there are still people who cannot stand snakes - and knowing that the garter snake s harmless doesn't seem to matter much, they know it's an emotional reaction.
But the difference here is that it is choice, not instinct. We've evolve to fear the animals that can o the most amage to us. Wasps are more the exception than the rule, and are only really dangerous in swarms unless you've got an allergy to their venom. With snakes, it only takes 1 to do a lot of tissue damage, and/or kill you in a rather grusome spectacle of pain and agony. We're talking about a choice. What one CHOOSES to do as a pastime. There is no instinct here, only a willingness to overlook certain thematic elements that are, honestly, less socially acceptable than casting spells, as they are real world issues that people in some parts of the world deal with on a day to day basis.
It's a game. It has only stylistic cues from real life and modern society, as any piece of art, commercial or not, will tend to have. To say that it's all good guys and bad guys is to take a few exceedingly ignorant standpoints: The existance of good and evil as anything beyond a social standard set by the society making the observations, becoming something real, standardized, and tangible in the form of influences and people society finds distasteful in extreme, and that social, economic, political and religious facism are, when carried out in the "best interests of the people" quite alright.
In the light of the arguments given, as the subject is applying their real world morals to the game, why do they feel the need to pick and choose what parts of their morality, which, upon making the distinction, cease to actually be morals for the subject player, and merely become social trivialities. Not only does it devalue the impact of human genocide, it actually serves as a quiet complacency with the idea. If it's just a game, then why does the idea of a magic user/psychic/daemon bother this particular type of player so much? Meanwhile they're more than happy to overlook the issues of human sacrifice, racism, sanctioned genocide, and persecution that run rampant throughout the given mythos.
The above is a prime example. Psykers in 40k bother the subject, and yet, the Maelstrom Of Gore, a rainstrom created by boiling out the blood of 888 human sacrifices until the sky runs red with blood and the vital fluids pours down upon the battlefield, doesn't? If you're going to play the game, then at least do so with the understanding that it is only a game. Like I said before, the only reason anyone who plays this game should have an issue with any of the thematic elements is because the suspension of disbelief has failed them, as there was never any disbelief to suspend. It is the responsability of the user to recognize that the game is just that, a game. It's not real. No part of it is actually real. The gaming part of our hobby is merely a set of abstractions that dictate the interactions and determining the outcomes of of those interactions of fictional characters in a fictional setting. This being said, if one is unable to separate fiction from reality, they're probably not the best candidates to be playing complex games, and should likely seek professional help. This particular aversion is no different than the behaviors and actions of the guy that doesn't realize that when the dice are put up and the character sheets are put away that the game is done, leading to those annoying little disclaimers on the inside of all of White Wolf Studio's rulebooks.
As far as the FoW people who wouldn't play as the SS, that's a slightly different approach, though, that being said, you're then getting into historical wargaming, which has a number of stigmas attached to the armies of various nations in any time period. FoW is more a matter of comparing one's tactical and strategic prowess using forces that were, to some degree, historically accurate. Having an SS army says nothing for the user beyond the fact that they are willing to overlook the stigma atteched to this group and acknowledge that they were a major part of this particular war, as long as they're not goose-stepping around the game store shouting Nazi slogans.
Dronze wrote:There is no instinct here, only a willingness to overlook certain thematic elements that are, honestly, less socially acceptable than casting spells, as they are real world issues that people in some parts of the world deal with on a day to day basis.
However, as you've already pointed out, instinct is largely driven by a fear of harm. Presumably someone who is deeply religious would fear any potential harm to their soul. Witchcraft being considered something which can damage a Christian soul, it stands to reason that certain Christians would have an aversion to it; particularly given the nebulous nature of the occult. As I said above, a simulation of the arcane can be considered something distinct from the simulation of genocide.
Dronze wrote: Not only does it devalue the impact of human genocide, it actually serves as a quiet complacency with the idea.
That isn't necessarily true. Valuation is not a black and white sort of thing. The fact that someone can consider a certain thing worse than even the most reprehensible act another person can conceive of does not imply that the second act is any less reprehensible.
Hehe, I went through this over 30 years ago, back when the college I was attending banned D&D. Even had a large assembly to explain why, etc etc. To be fair, it was a church-owned and operated private college (Lee College, Cleveland, TN, Church of God. I was the token reprobate on campus......... Had to have someone for the ministry students to practice on), so I can kinda understand their stance. BUT! when I got to the open mike they had and asked what information they were basing their decision on, it took a minute or two for them to admit that they had "read the outside of the box" and that was it. I even pressed the issue, "So, you've never actually read any of the rules or anything?" Correct. So hadn't read any rules, nothing, banning it basically on hearsay and the brief description on the outside of the Basic D&D box set. The Men's dean later impressed me by asking to borrow my books so he could check them out. When he returned them he admitted that while he wouldn't feel comfortable playing it, it wasn't what they had been led to believe. Still banned, mind you, but at least one of them actually checked it out. Didn't matter, I lived off-campus and we just played at my house.
My noble legions?! Space fascists!? Never! It may sound a bit odd coming from a 30 year old man, but i do kinda let the fluff affect my choice of army. I mean, i play only Ultramarines for several reasons ive already mentioned, (and to annoy pretentious nerds who for some reason have an odd distaste for them!) but if im honest, im cool with orcs and their good honest love of war, the tau, the theocratic but nonetheless noble imperial forces and even the alien eldar. But i dont know, i just think the DE are disgusting space perverts, the necrons want to extinguish all life and chaos want pretty much the same.. I think those three are just a bit TOO evil for my tastes! Does anyone else feel like that or am i a bit childish? :-)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and i dont even dislike nids, them lads are just hungry. :-)
dogma wrote:Witchcraft being considered something which can damage a Christian soul, it stands to reason that certain Christians would have an aversion to it; particularly given the nebulous nature of the occult. As I said above, a simulation of the arcane can be considered something distinct from the simulation of genocide.
What would be the official stance of various christian institutions? Does it vary a lot?
The interpretation of what would be considered a sin, seems an important part of this conversation. Would the thought of sin, be borderline sin in itself? Sounds a bit strict really.
@ mattyrm - Chaos just want everyone to have fun, for the fittest to rise to the top and BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD... erm... I mean they want people to revel in their human nature, rather than suppressing it under a thin layer of civility.
@generalgrog: Who's Duet? As a book from the bible I can't say I've ever heard of it.
Anyway, back On Topic:
When I was just starting out in the hobby back in Dubai I visited a Games Workshop store with my parents. I was having fun, looking around and checking out the cool table when I hear the femal store owner talking to my parents. (Who are particularily religeous, might I add)
Store Lady: Oh yeah. I'm a witch.
Parents: oh...
Store Lady: You know what I mean, just a closet kind of witch. It's not like I get out on my broom everynight and fly around.
She went on for a fair bit, but as soon as I heard that I knew there was no way in hell that I would be allowed to come to that store any more. My parents held their composure inside, but when we got out they freaked.
Wrexasaur wrote:
What would be the official stance of various christian institutions? Does it vary a lot?
As far as I know there aren't any major Christian institutions which preoccupy themselves with the theological, and ethical, ramifications of simulations.
Wrexasaur wrote:
The interpretation of what would be considered a sin, seems an important part of this conversation. Would the thought of sin, be borderline sin in itself? Sounds a bit strict really.
I know of certain people who treat the thought of sin as tantamount to sin, but its rare. Most often the thought of sin is simply, and to my mind correctly, regarded as temptation which is to be resisted. That said, I don't know many people who like to tempt themselves with things they want to avoid, so in that light avoiding anything associated with magic makes good sense.
After all, its reasonable to assume that someone could be presented with the opportunity to dabble in the occult. Far more likely, anyway, than being presented with the opportunity to commit genocide.
Wrexasaur wrote:
What would be the official stance of various christian institutions? Does it vary a lot?
As far as I know there aren't any major Christian institutions which preoccupy themselves with the theological, and ethical, ramifications of simulations.
Wrexasaur wrote:
The interpretation of what would be considered a sin, seems an important part of this conversation. Would the thought of sin, be borderline sin in itself? Sounds a bit strict really.
I know of certain people who treat the thought of sin as tantamount to sin, but its rare. Most often the thought of sin is simply, and to my mind correctly, regarded as temptation which is to be resisted. That said, I don't know many people who like to tempt themselves with things they want to avoid, so in that light avoiding anything associated with magic makes good sense.
But it's NOT magic, is the whole point. It's merely a game mechanic, which brings us, once again, to the issue of being able to tell fiction and fantasy from reality. If they want to avoid anything associated with magic, then why are they choosing to play the game to begin with? It is an integral part of the game., and even beyond that point, they would, by their own beliefs and moral standards, then have to avoid playing a game with anyone else who did use this particular mechanic, as it would be allowing themselves to be influenced by their opponent's witchcraft. No matter how one slices it, there is still no reasonable justification for trying to bring one's morals into the logical aspects of a hobby game.
After all, its reasonable to assume that someone could be presented with the opportunity to dabble in the occult. Far more likely, anyway, than being presented with the opportunity to commit genocide.
Genocide is like charity... it all starts at home.
Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:Now, I would really like to express that I am NOT bagging religion. If you believe in God or any number of Gods, immortal beings, prophets or spiritual leaders, then I won't diss or otherwise act rudely towards you in anyway. Those are your beliefs, I just don't happen to share them. The following is just a true story that I and everyone else present at my local GW store found humourous. A man in perhaps his forties walks into the store, he resembles your everyday John Smith. He asks around what the place is and what they sell. Upon having a quick tour and a few minutes watching a bitterly fought game between Empire and Dwarven troops, he seems impressed, stating that "This game seems to encourage creativity, strategic thinking and hand-eye coordination. But, he then asks about the fluff and background of the game, ans upon hearing 'daemon', 'magic' and 'psychic power' he quite literally explodes in anger, yelling at everyone for endorsing witchcraft, demonology and that we are all being corrupted by the dark hand of the devil. He then storms out of the store muttering about how nothing is holy and how satan is corrupting the children. Has anyone had a similar experience with a religious person they know? Or maybe you just have a comment.
Quite the opposite.
One of the regulars where I play/played was a Minister.
He played Necrons. With Church Lady Bonnets modeled on them.
He was totally well adjusted and had no issues with the game on the whole, because it's just a game.
JEB_Stuart wrote:This thread has, like all threads on religion, devolved into stupidity. I mean, how can someone seriously claim that because one does play this game it is considered tacit approval to genocide, murder, etc., and in the same breath call them "ethical monsters" for ignoring the witchcraft or demonic element. Seriously dude, grow up and go paint some minis. Let people enjoy the hobby the way they see fit and shut up.
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Albatross wrote:
JEB wrote:This thread has, like all threads on religion, devolved into stupidity. I mean, how can someone seriously claim that because one does play this game it is considered tacit approval to genocide, murder, etc., and in the same breath call them "ethical monsters" for ignoring the witchcraft or demonic element. Seriously dude, grow up and go paint some minis. Let people enjoy the hobby the way they see fit and shut up.
Bit harsh, JEB. I think what he was driving at was that if you are uncomfortable with playing Daemons, why should you be any more comfortable playing Space Fascists *ahem* Marines?
p.s. Is Magic/witchcraft even mentioned in the Bible/Qu'ran/Torah? I was just wondering if it was explicitly forbidden in scripture or if it was just cultural thing.
No he's directly on point. Its nonsensical to equate playing toy soldiers/D&D etc. or aspects of it with anything else in real life. As noted, almost all threads even remotely citing a religious person devolve on this board into such inanity.
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bravelybravesirrobin wrote:
Dronze wrote:I've got a few fundies in the family tree.... nothing more obnoxious than someone being so ignorant as to read the opening page of your 4th edition mini-rulebook (the Mcragge boxed set, clearly marked "Rule Book" in sizable letters on the cover) and then following up with a question as wantonly moronic as "So, do you believe all of this is real?" whilst you build plastic models.
I almost called a buddy of mine for an early ride home after that one. I don't tolerate willful ignorance too well.
My only other comment is that this woman also home-schools her kids. May their god have mercy on them, because reality certainly won't when their ignorance of things like actual science and how life in the real world works is revealed...
Yeah, for some reason very religious people have difficulties distinguishing a fictional book filled with gods, devils, heroes and monsters from reality.
I wonder why that might be.
A
Bercause dickheads who make fun of them abound on the internet?
Dronze, the point of the post was that christians do play various games. And that they deal with various parts in their own ways. That we are not all "Burn the witch" types. If you think her point of view in contradictory, that is your issue. She realizes it is a game. Has no problems if others play spell casters but feels that she should have no form of "dabbling" there for lack of a better term. And over the years has loosend up more and more.
Jeb, witchcraft is mentioned as previously posted and was followed by stoning.
I have worked with and had converstation with people that when the find out I play any sort of game get freeked out by it. Most of them having never read/played the game. They also get their information second, third, fourth hand. And are speaking from total ingorance.
Frazzled wrote:No he's directly on point. Its nonsensical to equate playing toy soldiers/D&D etc. or aspects of it with anything else in real life.
Exactly, which is why it's ridiculous to avoid playing with toy soldiers, because said toy soldiers are furnished with psychic powers as part of the rules/fluff. Space Marines shoot people - playing them is not tacit to condoning the shooting of other people (at least, not in EVERY case... ), just as playing Chaos Daemons is not tacit to condoning attempts to summon demons in the real world. So why be hung up on it? If the game was based on Christian mythology (like KULT for example (IIRC)), then I could understand it - that would be blasphemy, I guess. Not something I personally have a problem with, but I can understand why religious people might.
Frazzled wrote:Bercause dickheads who make fun of them abound on the internet?
So now your just flat-out insulting other posters? That's pretty tacky, man.
WvLopp wrote:Dronze, the point of the post was that christians do play various games.
Your not going to convince that guy, no matter what you say. So I recomend just not to try. He seems to be the type of person that is just as bad as the religious zealot that the OP was refering to. People tend to hate about others, what they hate about themselves. There are people out there that cannot see "grey areas" in any thing. Evrything is black and white to them. I have learned to avoid dealing with these types of people.
Frazzled wrote:No he's directly on point. Its nonsensical to equate playing toy soldiers/D&D etc. or aspects of it with anything else in real life.
Exactly, which is why it's ridiculous to avoid playing with toy soldiers, because said toy soldiers are furnished with psychic powers as part of the rules/fluff. Space Marines shoot people - playing them is not tacit to condoning the shooting of other people (at least, not in EVERY case... ), just as playing Chaos Daemons is not tacit to condoning attempts to summon demons in the real world. So why be hung up on it? If the game was based on Christian mythology (like KULT for example (IIRC)), then I could understand it - that would be blasphemy, I guess. Not something I personally have a problem with, but I can understand why religious people might.
No the poster was denoting not playing with spellcasters as in some way condoning war crimes and a whole slew of other nonsense and rantus nuttus. Equating ANYTHING relaterd to toy soldiers does not equate to real life in this context. The whole relationship is stupid. If they don't want to play with magic users thats their call-who cares?
Frazzled wrote:Bercause dickheads who make fun of them abound on the internet?
So now your just flat-out insulting other posters? That's pretty tacky, man.
They started it. I am just replying to any dickheads making fun of them on the internet. If a poster is not a dill weed making fun of them on the internet then they are safe.
Yes, we are all crazy. Which is why you should never mess with america and also why no one has tried to invade america, except for the british they may be crazier just because of that.
This is an interesting discussion. The regulars of our gaming group is made up of church-goers. We have Baptists, Catholics, Assemblies of God and a Mormon. We all grew up watching Star Wars, playing D&D and reading The Lord of the Rings (as well as our Bibles). We're able to discuss life, love and service while my Sisters Repentia are carving up my buddy's Daemonettes and not feel tainted by it. Were I ever to be confronted by a well-meaning crusader claiming my hobby is evil, I'd ask them what they thought of Monopoly. After all, the Bible teaches that the love of money is the root of all evil... What's the goal in Monopoly again?
But yes, a lot of church people play warhammer. I was dropping off some donations of canned food to our church and our "priest-in-training" cam to help unload the car and saw my IG codex in the back seat. He then told me that Eldar were better.
halonachos wrote:Yes, we are all crazy. Which is why you should never mess with america and also why no one has tried to invade america, except for the british they may be crazier just because of that.
halonachos wrote:Yes, we are all crazy. Which is why you should never mess with america and also why no one has tried to invade america, except for the british they may be crazier just because of that.
What do you expect? We have the Scottish, who are famous brawlers, the Irish, who are famous drinkers, and the English, who are famous for being complete and utter bastards. Oh and, the Welsh. Could any union with all of us in be anything other than bat gak crazy?
halonachos wrote:Yes, we are all crazy. Which is why you should never mess with america and also why no one has tried to invade america, except for the british they may be crazier just because of that.
What do you expect? We have the Scottish, who are famous brawlers, the Irish, who are famous drinkers, and the English, who are famous for being complete and utter bastards. Oh and, the Welsh. Could any union with all of us in be anything other than bat gak crazy?
It's called immigration, we have a lots of Irish, Scots, English, and even breeds incorporating several of those all in one person.
I'm not too sure having a scottish great grandfather makes you scottish. I know a lot of scottish people get hacked off when americans come over and start wearing kilts and pretending to be scottish.
Sure. And I know Scottish people who get hacked off by the idea that a kilt is a symbol of Scotland, as opposed to a traditional highland garment, which lowlanders adopted only in the romantic revival of the 19th century. People get hacked off by all kinds of stuff. Resenting someone who loves and identifies with your country, despite only having an ancestral connection, seems a bit harsh and lacking in generosity.
Dronze wrote:
But it's NOT magic, is the whole point. It's merely a game mechanic, which brings us, once again, to the issue of being able to tell fiction and fantasy from reality.
What is magic, in a real-world setting? In order to be explicitly certain that what is being performed is not a thing, you must first know what the thing in question is, and how it behaves.
Dronze wrote:
If they want to avoid anything associated with magic, then why are they choosing to play the game to begin with?
Competing desires. There's no explicit requirement for desire to be governed by logic. Indeed, its almost antithetical for it to be so controlled.
Dronze wrote:
It is an integral part of the game., and even beyond that point, they would, by their own beliefs and moral standards, then have to avoid playing a game with anyone else who did use this particular mechanic, as it would be allowing themselves to be influenced by their opponent's witchcraft.
Not necessarily. There was no stipulation made with respect to the effects of proximity, or indirect contact. All we know is that the player is morally uncomfortable with the idea of simulating magic, there are any number of paths by which that position can be reached. You described one, I've described between 3 and 4; depending on how certain premises are applied.
Dronze wrote:
No matter how one slices it, there is still no reasonable justification for trying to bring one's morals into the logical aspects of a hobby game.
There doesn't have to be, and that hasn't been the purpose of this debate.
Mannahnin wrote: Resenting someone who loves and identifies with your country, despite only having an ancestral connection, seems a bit harsh and lacking in generosity.
That's pretty much the textbook definition of being Scottish as it happens.
They are pretty cool. They're an ancient Irish garment too, but given that I am only Irish via my maternal grandfather (who was actually born in Brooklyn), I will no doubt prompt resentment if I make too big a show of Irish pride and connexion.
Interesting thread. Kudos to dakkaites for keeping it so civil.
As a very orthodox christian (orthodox theology, not Orthodox Church specifically) myself I've heard all the arguments against role-playing, wargames, etc and I'm still into the hobby. From a Christian perspective, there is of a danger that someone might get so "into" their 40k hobby that it interferes with their spiritual life, but that same danger exists with anything from video games to sports, to motorcycles, to golf to any activity that someone idolizes to the detriment of their spiritual life.
Some christians are primed to find offense wherever they look. This is only exacerbated in those who already exist in a sub-culture that is as separate as possible from the world around them. There are many biblical arguments for why such separatism, and reactionism is theologically unsound, but that's a whole other can-o-worms.
I converted/painted figures and played a few games of 40k at Moody Bible Institute, and my friend ran long term D&D campaigns at Gordon Conwell Seminary. Suffice to say, even spiritually conservative folks like us know that they guy the OP is describing is way off base.
WvLopp wrote:Dronze, the point of the post was that christians do play various games.
Your not going to convince that guy, no matter what you say. So I recomend just not to try. He seems to be the type of person that is just as bad as the religious zealot that the OP was refering to. People tend to hate about others, what they hate about themselves. There are people out there that cannot see "grey areas" in any thing. Evrything is black and white to them. I have learned to avoid dealing these types of people.
GG
I argue a very specific point, with a very specific conditionals with a very specific outcome, and magically, I'm saying "NO! XTIANS SHOULDN'T PLAY 40K! HURR!".
My whole point, this entire time, has been quite simple: IF one cannot separate your sense of MORALITY from the GAME one are choosing to play, and the REALITY in which one lives, then one has no business playing the game to begin with. IF one feels the need to apply the scope of one's MORALITY to a GAME within SPECIFIC contexts, and not in others, that means one is, in this respect, a HYPOCRITE. IF one feels the need to apply the scope of one's MORALITY to a GAME within a GENERAL context, and only the witchraft thing is an issue to them, they are some kind of MONSTER or SOCIOPATH.
In all of these scenarios, the inability to differentiate what is real and what is fiction, or being unwilling to differentiate between the two, suggests that they REALLY NEED TO BE LOOKING AT A DIFFERENT HOBBY, as they need some kind of professional help.
dogma wrote:
Dronze wrote:
It is an integral part of the game., and even beyond that point, they would, by their own beliefs and moral standards, then have to avoid playing a game with anyone else who did use this particular mechanic, as it would be allowing themselves to be influenced by their opponent's witchcraft.
Not necessarily. There was no stipulation made with respect to the effects of proximity, or indirect contact. All we know is that the player is morally uncomfortable with the idea of simulating magic, there are any number of paths by which that position can be reached. You described one, I've described between 3 and 4; depending on how certain premises are applied.
And ultimately, my agument doesn't depend on any of the paths described, but rather that the subject feels the need to apply their sense of morality to ANY part of the game to begin with, thus indicating an inability, at some level, to divorce reality from fantasy.
Dronze wrote:
And ultimately, my agument doesn't depend on any of the paths described, but rather that the subject feels the need to apply their sense of morality to ANY part of the game to begin with, thus indicating an inability, at some level, to divorce reality from fantasy.
You're argument, at least initially, was not intended to express an inability to divorce reality from fantasy. Your argument was intended, as I understood it, to support the notion that someone who was averse to the manipulation of simulations of witchcraft must be complacent with respect to concepts like genocide. My counter argument, presented through the existence of possible alternatives, was meant to address the fact that such a condition need not follow from the premises you outlined.
Similarly, a general aversion to a certain sort of thing need not indicate an inability to divorce fantasy from reality. Its perfectly feasible for someone to be uncomfortable with both the real manifestation of a thing, and the fictitious representation of that thing while still being able to differentiate between the two. My ex-girlfriend was terrified of blood, and while she knew that bloody scenes in movies were dramatized, she still had no desire to watch them, and became visibly uncomfortable when doing so. That isn't irrational, its simply an alternate valuation which she approached rationally by avoiding bloody movies due to the unpleasant sensation they caused her.
Dronze wrote:IF one feels the need to apply the scope of one's MORALITY to a GAME within SPECIFIC contexts, and not in others, that means one is, in this respect, a HYPOCRITE.
Again, this isn't a necessary antecedent to the premises you've outlined. Witchcraft being a thing without a tangibly evident example allows it to be regarded as distinct from genocide. There's also the fact about specific biblical prohibitions which serve to alter the landscape of reasonable consideration.
Dogma wrote:Witchcraft being a thing without a tangibly evident example allows it to be regarded as distinct from genocide.
Weeeeell... not strictly speaking. Witchcraft is something which is practiced by many people in different parts of the world - it also depends on your definition of the word. Various 'primitive' (I use the term advisedly...) religions/cults engage in practices which could be considered 'witchcraft' by some christians. Sorry to nit-pick.
But the ACTUAL summoning/existence of Demons? Yeah, fair enough - not demonstrable.
Dronze wrote:IF one feels the need to apply the scope of one's MORALITY to a GAME within SPECIFIC contexts, and not in others, that means one is, in this respect, a HYPOCRITE.
Again, this isn't a necessary antecedent to the premises you've outlined. Witchcraft being a thing without a tangibly evident example allows it to be regarded as distinct from genocide. There's also the fact about specific biblical prohibitions which serve to alter the landscape of reasonable consideration.
So, it's been a while since i last checked, but "Thou Shalt Not Kill" has been removed from the bible?
I'd say that's a pretty solid prohibition, clearly worded, no real exceptions given as such. If we're going by the issue of the simulation of whichcraft versus the simulation of racial cleansing, I'd say Genocide, defined as the "systematic killing of a racial or cultural group" certainly qualifies, wouldn't you?
Dronze wrote:I've got a few fundies in the family tree.... nothing more obnoxious than someone being so ignorant as to read the opening page of your 4th edition mini-rulebook (the Mcragge boxed set, clearly marked "Rule Book" in sizable letters on the cover) and then following up with a question as wantonly moronic as "So, do you believe all of this is real?" whilst you build plastic models.
I almost called a buddy of mine for an early ride home after that one. I don't tolerate willful ignorance too well.
My only other comment is that this woman also home-schools her kids. May their god have mercy on them, because reality certainly won't when their ignorance of things like actual science and how life in the real world works is revealed...
Yeah, for some reason very religious people have difficulties distinguishing a fictional book filled with gods, devils, heroes and monsters from reality.
I wonder why that might be.
A
Bercause dickheads who make fun of them abound on the internet?
So which part of my statement do you disagree with.
That the bible isn't considered accurately real by some Christians?
That the bible doesn't contain gods, devils, magic, heroes and monsters?
Or is it the implication that some christians find it hard to distinguish a clearly fantastic work from reality?
I assume the latter point and I have 4 words for you. Harry Potter teaches witchcraft.
Dronze wrote:
So, it's been a while since i last checked, but "Thou Shalt Not Kill" has been removed from the bible?
It isn't necessarily "Though Shalt Not Kill", its also translated as "Though Shalt Not Murder". In biblical parlance the word 'kill' is used to describe justifiable homicide (eg. killing in self-defense, killing enemies, etc.), while murder is used to describe unjustifiable homicide (killing other Christians, killing Jews, killing the weak, killing the benign, etc.). This is one of the more common misunderstanding that pops up when discussing the Bible.
Dronze wrote:
I'd say that's a pretty solid prohibition, clearly worded, no real exceptions given as such. If we're going by the issue of the simulation of whichcraft versus the simulation of racial cleansing, I'd say Genocide, defined as the "systematic killing of a racial or cultural group" certainly qualifies, wouldn't you?
No, because as I said, it isn't necessarily "Thou Shalt Not Kill". Conceivably, within the logic of the game as presented, genocide is fully justifiable; primarily because its essentially a matter of survival in the 40k universe. Witchcraft, on the other hand, isn't seen as justifiable by any translation of the Bible which I have encountered.
Dogma wrote:It isn't necessarily "Though Shalt Not Kill", its also translated as "Though Shalt Not Murder". In biblical parlance the word 'kill' is used to describe justifiable homicide (eg. killing in self-defense, killing enemies, etc.), while murder is used to describe unjustifiable homicide (killing other Christians, killing Jews, killing the weak, killing the benign, etc.). This is one of the more common misunderstanding that pops up when discussing the Bible.
@Dogma - I did. It didn't make a very convincing case. I'm not going to debate scripture with you in any great depth (purely because I don't wish to offend anyone simply for the sake of it...), but I will say that I was expecting a breakdown of the translation of that particular commandment, rather than a convenient recontextualisation.
I don't really see how the biased translation of a non-secular website qualifies as a definative counterargument or evidence of support here, especially given the fact that most religious groups will translate some parts and take others word for word at it's literal value.
I don't really see how the biased translation of a non-secular website qualifies as a definative counterargument or evidence of support here, especially given the fact that most religious groups will translate some parts and take others word for word at it's literal value.
For one neither side is unbiased.
Two, this website didn't make up this argument. It has been a sticking point for a long time. Longer then any of us have been alive on this board.
Dronze wrote:
I don't really see how the biased translation of a non-secular website qualifies as a definative counterargument or evidence of support here, especially given the fact that most religious groups will translate some parts and take others word for word at it's literal value.
See, here's where you're going to fall into a lot of holes. I don't have to prove that the Bible can be definitely said to include the commandment "Thou Shalt Not Murder" as opposed to "Thou Shalt Not Kill". I only need to prove that people believe that such a translation is valid in order to discredit the notion that we can regard your conclusion as a necessary antecedent. Remember your paradoxes of material implication. Any premise which does not correlate with reality is functionally useless with respect to an argument meant to pertain to it.
bsohi wrote:Trickier question. Define murder! You can murder an animal, no? Humans -are- animals, no? Can't you murder in self-defence?
Murder is generally defined as the unlawful killing of a human being.
Albatross wrote:@Dogma - I did. It didn't make a very convincing case. I'm not going to debate scripture with you in any great depth (purely because I don't wish to offend anyone simply for the sake of it...), but I will say that I was expecting a breakdown of the translation of that particular commandment, rather than a convenient recontextualisation.
This particular argument has been around since...well since the Bible was written. However, the short of it is that many view the word murder to be a superior translation in light of the many instances of justified violence committed in the Bible. Its a means of improving the communicative value of the commandments intended to be the essential tenets of Christian morality. It is an issue of translation, but not the sort which is word for word, which is par for the course when translating any source written in a dead language.
Dogma wrote:Witchcraft being a thing without a tangibly evident example allows it to be regarded as distinct from genocide.
Weeeeell... not strictly speaking. Witchcraft is something which is practiced by many people in different parts of the world - it also depends on your definition of the word. Various 'primitive' (I use the term advisedly...) religions/cults engage in practices which could be considered 'witchcraft' by some christians. Sorry to nit-pick.
But the ACTUAL summoning/existence of Demons? Yeah, fair enough - not demonstrable.
Witchcraft exists as a practice in various different cultures, however there is no evidence of it producing any real world effects other than by placebo. (Saving of course the injuries, etc. caused to victims by the physical behaviour of the practicioners.)
I’m with Dogma. The logic defining someone who is less-comfortable with the representations of magic and daemons in the game than with the themes of violence, war, and oppression as a hypocrite, is not solid by any means. Different people are made uncomfortable by different things, and while the basis of their preferences may or may not be logical, that does not make them a monster or a sociopath.
The interpretation of “Thou Shalt Not Kill” really meaning “Thou Shalt Not Murder” is well-known to anyone who does any even casual Biblical study, or touches on it in comparative religion. It becomes obvious to anyone reading the old testament, given how much deity-sanctioned violence is in there, that killing is permitted under a number of circumstances, but murder (ie: unlawful / unjustified killing of people) is not.
Mannahnin wrote:I’m with Dogma. The logic defining someone who is less-comfortable with the representations of magic and daemons in the game than with the themes of violence, war, and oppression as a hypocrite, is not solid by any means. Different people are made uncomfortable by different things, and while the basis of their preferences may or may not be logical, that does not make them a monster or a sociopath.
Yeah, this. It's an especially odd claim that someone shouldn't be bothered by spellcasters in their army, when there's so many people in thread who appear to be so bothered about the gaming preferences of people they've never met.
We all have trivial things that shouldn't bother us, but often do. Let it go.
Ketara wrote:I'm not too sure having a scottish great grandfather makes you scottish. I know a lot of scottish people get hacked off when americans come over and start wearing kilts and pretending to be scottish.
It does if your grandfather, grandmother, father, mother were scottish. When immigration occured all of the cultures kind of kept to themselves in places like "Little Italy", "Little China", that one ride in Disneyland where all of the dwarfs live. So it's not impossible to have a pure Italian family in america just as its not impossible for a pure blooded scottish person and a pure blooded irish person to have kids that are a mix of Irish and Scottish who wear kilts, but only after a large amount of Guiness.
But why did this conversation get to this and the whole "Thou shalt not kill" is actually "Thou shalt not murder" thing?
KK wrote:Witchcraft exists as a practice in various different cultures, however there is no evidence of it producing any real world effects other than by placebo. (Saving of course the injuries, etc. caused to victims by the physical behaviour of the practicioners.)
Erm... yeah. That's what I said - isn't it? There's also an interesting parallel to be drawn, but let's not go there.
I'm glad you enjoyed sharing with us your cathartic experience of breaking up with a teenage girl. Those evil Christians sure are evil. I'm amazed we haven't discussed this before in the OT.
BOSS_PIMPALOTZ wrote:
I had a friend who went through exactly the same thing.
Its funny what people believe in and whats excused "Evil Wise" and whats not.
Problem with Christians is they have a different Sin of the week I went out with a Christian girl but her spiritual rantings and self Flaglations soon p***ed me right off the same girl in question looked at the hobby I did as evil until she actually read a Codex and realised its "Fiction"
Call me mean but the break up was the most fun ive had at the time. I quite curtly told her that god doesnt exist and she cried she cried and rennouced me as evil and that the Rapture wouldnt take me that id burn on Earth heheheh with Christians you are certain of ONE thing Hypocritical statements and mental torture unless of course their with other Christians.
I never cease to be amazed by how people broadbrush and generalize, based on their own limited experiance.
"My exgirlfriend was X so therefore all Christians are X."
I'm also saddened by the amount of pleasure you claim to have taken in your cruelty.
halonachos wrote:
But why did this conversation get to this and the whole "Thou shalt not kill" is actually "Thou shalt not murder" thing?
Counter-argument to the notion that a Christian applying his real-world morality to the game of 40k could not be comfortable with genocide. Not that Christianity endorses, or is comfortable with, genocide, but that in a fictional universe where everyone is evil it could be considered a type of justified violence on a purely hypothetical level.
No and Frazzled makes one of his stirling quotes again that lend in NO way any weight to proceedings at all look below to refresh yourself of his non descript greatness trying to be clever for the sake of being well......god knows if wit was s**t he'd be backed up and in need of colonic Irrigation
Frazzled wrote: I'm glad you enjoyed sharing with us your cathartic experience of breaking up with a teenage girl. Those evil Christians sure are evil. I'm amazed we haven't discussed this before in the OT.
Didnt mention she was teenaged did i this was a MATURE woman and yes I indulge in cruelty after all I am but Human.
And dude I dont like ANY religion i think its irrational and hypocritical... How one would devote themselves to something clearly not real
it makes me laugh.
Wow, Just wow.... how about having some respect for people's beliefs Boss_Pimpalotz, and like GG said, just because you have had X exprience with a Christian doesnt mean all Christians are like that.
Your clearly a twelve year old, well you're as immature as one...
Lord-Loss wrote:Wow, Just wow.... how about having some respect for people's beliefs Boss_Pimpalotz, and like GG said, just because you have had X exprience with a Christian doesnt mean all Christians are like that.
Your clearly a twelve year old, well you're as immature as one...
Id revaluate what you just said.......seriously go and have a long think maybe some herbal tea with that.... are you a Christian???
Petite Francois wrote:Hey, if you're going to let people villainize Christians and insult their beliefs in this thread, I'm going to start preaching soon, 'kay?
---Emperor bless and cherish you!
Frankie
Give me reasons why we who think its Hypocritical shouldnt??
BOSS_PIMPALOTZ wrote:No and Frazzled makes one of his stirling quotes again that lend in NO way any weight to proceedings at all look below to refresh yourself of his non descript greatness trying to be clever for the sake of being well......god knows if wit was s**t he'd be backed up and in need of colonic Irrigation
Frazzled wrote: I'm glad you enjoyed sharing with us your cathartic experience of breaking up with a teenage girl. Those evil Christians sure are evil. I'm amazed we haven't discussed this before in the OT.
Didnt mention she was teenaged did i this was a MATURE woman and yes I indulge in cruelty after all I am but Human.
And dude I dont like ANY religion i think its irrational and hypocritical... How one would devote themselves to something clearly not real
it makes me laugh.
You're right you didn't state you were a teenager. I apologize. I mistakenly thought you were a teenager because adults don't act like that because they, you know, grew up and quit acting like babies. Please forgive me.
generalgrog wrote:If the thread wasn't bad enough, we now have the proverbial rabbit hole that all these threads take.
The rabbit hole is usually opened up by some Johnny come lately that decides... Hey Trolling is fun!!
IB4L
GG
Yea but "trying" to argue the merits of religion without being horrible is hypocritical.... You people should listen to yourselves once in a while when the old thunderdork comes riding down from on high with his flaming Dorksword brandished and you all run for the hills...
If your going to debate...F**king debate.... you open the box then expect people to be hurt the world isnt a nice place....
BOSS_PIMPALOTZ wrote:
Yea but "trying" to argue the merits of religion without being horrible is hypocritical.... You people should listen to yourselves once in a while when the old thunderdork comes riding down from on high with his flaming Dorksword brandished and you all run for the hills...
If your going to debate...F**king debate.... you open the box then expect people to be hurt the world isnt a nice place....
You don't seem to be capable of debate, I doubt very much that you even know what the word really means.
Oh I get the tactic here.......Ok time to go back to the Dakkites version of the "Ideal World" still reckon Captain America should try fighting his own battles but hey he has trouble getting up a flight of stairs to get his next bag of cheetos.....heheh yea the Drama Llama button is definately needed on the Internets.
Oh I get the tactic here.......Ok time to go back to the Dakkites version of the "Ideal World" still reckon Captain America should try fighting his own battles but hey he has trouble getting up a flight of stairs to get his next bag of cheetos.....heheh yea the Drama Llama button is definately needed on the Internets.
What do you have against Cheetoes? Keep this up and you'll have to answer to the Pepsico Bottling Company (internet cookies to the reference).
Lord-Loss wrote:Boss, can you answer this question without swearing, bashing religion and in a calm way?
Why is religion hypercritical?
Good point...
And I say this...
Because when you look and really read into religion what good has it done us as a species??. Nothing more wars have been fought over beings that dont exist then I care to count on my fingers and toes the problem we face right now in our day and age has been caused by a bunch of fanatics that think they get orders from "God" to kill these are Muslims and trust me so far we have just touched a minority that think its ok to harm other because "God" told them to.
In the 1100's 1200's before then the Christian faith stormed across half the world killing and burning and maiming in the name of "God" yet! in the pages of the Bible it clearly states "THOU SHALT NOT KILL" or how others say in prominantly the Yanks "THOU SHALT NOT MURDER".The Bible is litterly soaked in blood of those who didnt believe in what they did the Quran is soaked in equal amounts over guess what?? killing people who didint believe in what they believed in.
To this day anyone who shows a level headed and rational approach and saids "There is no god" as I have gets funny looks its oppressive and utterly hypocritical Christians say "Kindness" "Love" "Compassion" yes towards other Christians yet when it comes to "Normal" people they are as compassionate as a left hook to the jaw.
To summarise
Murder: B*LLS**T (The Crusades biggest hypocritical stain on Christianity ever! and no matter how hard they scrub that blood isnt coming off)
Adultery (Thou shalt not covent thy neighbours wife) or something like that more Christians or offshoots indulge in adulterous activity then many others)
Bigamy (Towards Black people and Gay People)
Thats three examples need I go on to what the Christian church has done to indiginous peoples of other countries in the thrid world they believe in "Demons" Christian Evangelists in Nigeria and Angola have driven nails into peoples heads children for pities sake and you call that normal.....
Its all Hypocritical b***gak and before you say to me "Have you been to church" yes I have and its full of people who have issues who are trying to latch onto the bible bus thats not healing thats trading one set of bonds for another...
Read the bible from cover to cover I have........... Then you'll realise
BOSS_PIMPALOTZ wrote:Bigamy (Towards Black people and Gay People)
Christians allow black people and gays to marry in groups of 3? Go figure....
I think the term you were looking for is "Bigotry", and they don't really discriminate against black people. I'll give you gays, but have you ever been to an inner-city church in the midwest?
BOSS_PIMPALOTZ wrote:Bigamy (Towards Black people and Gay People)
Christians allow black people and gays to marry in groups of 3? Go figure....
I think the term you were looking for is "Bigotry", and they don't really discriminate against black people. I'll give you gays, but have you ever been to an inner-city church in the midwest?
No strangely enough I havent.........Seeing as I live in Britain
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hawkins wrote:
Bla_Ze wrote:I think my take on the subject is rather intresting.
LOL!!!! and ironic if you think about speeling DOG backwards.
Oh I get the tactic here.......Ok time to go back to the Dakkites version of the "Ideal World" still reckon Captain America should try fighting his own battles but hey he has trouble getting up a flight of stairs to get his next bag of cheetos.....heheh yea the Drama Llama button is definately needed on the Internets.
What do you have against Cheetoes? Keep this up and you'll have to answer to the Pepsico Bottling Company (internet cookies to the reference).
To this day anyone who shows a level headed and rational approach and saids "There is no god" as I have gets funny looks its oppressive and utterly hypocritical Christians say "Kindness" "Love" "Compassion" yes towards other Christians yet when it comes to "Normal" people they are as compassionate as a left hook to the jaw.
Not really, there are Christian charitys that help all people, not just Christians. I've never exprienced any funny looks, thought I have been asked "So, why dont you believe in God?" but always in a polite way.
You're hate of religion seems to come from the fact that you believe that all religious people are rude and snobby to those not of there religion, and that religion people shouldnt be allowed to practice there religion because there are some bloody aspects of there history.
To this day anyone who shows a level headed and rational approach and saids "There is no god" as I have gets funny looks its oppressive and utterly hypocritical Christians say "Kindness" "Love" "Compassion" yes towards other Christians yet when it comes to "Normal" people they are as compassionate as a left hook to the jaw.
Not really, there are Christian charitys that help all people, not just Christians. I've never exprienced any funny looks, thought I have been asked "So, why dont you believe in God?" but always in a polite way.
You're hate of religion seems to come from the fact that you believe that all religious people are rude and snobby to those not of there religion, and that religion people shouldnt be allowed to practice there religion because there are some bloody aspects of there history.
And you leave out the fact that its Hypocritical again and that flat out god doesnt exist.....
Miracles.....theres another curve ball my Niece was taken to Lourdes because her Catholic mother believed that god had cursed her and thought that the waters at Lourdes would cure her.....shes eleven now and still as disabled as she was when she went at the age of four...
Medicine 1-God and the large joke thats called religion........0
I didnt want to bring that into it I really didnt as its a sore subject for me.
And did I say I hate religion no I said that I think its Hypocritical....and I take great joy in debunking it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lord-Loss wrote:You just cant have some fun can you.
Yes I can but I dont find the idea of the MODs combining into a robot funny in the slightest....
BP can you call a truce or something for a while, i understand and agree that God does not exist. ( personally , if he does, he has lot to answer for), but its getting old. pick it up later once things have calmed down. assuming others can as well.
Miracles.....theres another curve ball my Niece was taken to Lourdes because her Catholic mother believed that god had cursed her and thought that the waters at Lourdes would cure her.....shes eleven now and still as disabled as she was when she went at the age of four..
So you the actions of a few people dictate the actions of the rest of the one billion Christians in the World?
Hawkins wrote:BP can you call a truce or something for a while, i understand and agree that God does not exist. ( personally , if he does, he has lot to answer for), but its getting old. pick it up later once things have calmed down. assuming others can as well.
People are ACTUALLY angry??? ....Well im sorry for having an angle EDITED FOR PERSONAL ATTACKS
Miracles.....theres another curve ball my Niece was taken to Lourdes because her Catholic mother believed that god had cursed her and thought that the waters at Lourdes would cure her.....shes eleven now and still as disabled as she was when she went at the age of four..
So you the actions of a few people dictate the actions of the rest of the one billion Christians in the World?
Hawkins wrote:BP can you call a truce or something for a while, i understand and agree that God does not exist. ( personally , if he does, he has lot to answer for), but its getting old. pick it up later once things have calmed down. assuming others can as well.
People are ACTUALLY angry??? ....Well im sorry for having an angle Frazzled started this to be honest by doing what he does best stick his nose in when people are debating...and "Try" to be clever....
go frazzled......
Incorrect, you were slanging people of my faith and bragging about it.
I'd say EDITED FOR FLAMING but you don't believe in God so the statement is not relevant plus it would be insulting and not appropriate. I'll post this instead.
Hawkins wrote:BP can you call a truce or something for a while, i understand and agree that God does not exist. ( personally , if he does, he has lot to answer for), but its getting old. pick it up later once things have calmed down. assuming others can as well.
People are ACTUALLY angry??? ....Well im sorry for having an angle Frazzled started this to be honest by doing what he does best stick his nose in when people are debating...and "Try" to be clever....
i didnt say angry, i said calm down.... and yes Frazz is somewhat responsibe as well but that doesnt mean your actions have to escalate accordingly.
People are ACTUALLY angry??? ....Well im sorry for having an angle Frazzled started this to be honest by doing what he does best stick his nose in when people are debating...and "Try" to be clever....
go frazzled......
(Sigh)... That image is so not accurate. Here corrected your typo.
EDIT. I'd advise losing the army guy as that violates the DAKKA forum rules and you'll get suspended. Just giving you fair warning.
People are ACTUALLY angry??? ....Well im sorry for having an angle Frazzled started this to be honest by doing what he does best stick his nose in when people are debating...and "Try" to be clever....
go frazzled......
(Sigh)... That image is so not accurate. Here corrected your typo.
EDIT. I'd advise losing the army as that violates the DAKKA forum rules and you'll get suspended. Just giving you fair warning.
That's the biggest Haggis I've ever seen!
Surely it had escaped from a zoo. It can't be a wild one.
Lord-Loss wrote:Boss, can you answer this question without swearing, bashing religion and in a calm way?
Why is religion hypercritical?
Good point...
And I say this...
Because when you look and really read into religion what good has it done us as a species??. Nothing more wars have been fought over beings that dont exist then I care to count on my fingers and toes the problem we face right now in our day and age has been caused by a bunch of fanatics that think they get orders from "God" to kill these are Muslims and trust me so far we have just touched a minority that think its ok to harm other because "God" told them to.
Hospitals, Orphanages, homlesss shelters to name few that are open to all. It takes the same amount of faith/belief that there is not a god/higher being as we do that there is one. As for muslims, can not speak for that
In the 1100's 1200's before then the Christian faith stormed across half the world killing and burning and maiming in the name of "God" yet! in the pages of the Bible it clearly states "THOU SHALT NOT KILL" or how others say in prominantly the Yanks "THOU SHALT NOT MURDER".The Bible is litterly soaked in blood of those who didnt believe in what they did the Quran is soaked in equal amounts over guess what?? killing people who didint believe in what they believed in.
In the bible, every nation that God told the Israelites to destroy where evil, depraved to the point that blood soaked the land. It also needs to be pointed out that that people change Gods word to mean what they want it to mean. Taking things out of context. The human element. This happens often as witnessed by some of the cults that have been seen.
To this day anyone who shows a level headed and rational approach and saids "There is no god" as I have gets funny looks its oppressive and utterly hypocritical Christians say "Kindness" "Love" "Compassion" yes towards other Christians yet when it comes to "Normal" people they are as compassionate as a left hook to the jaw.
Yes that is hypocritical and unfortunate that you have experienced that. Most of the chrisitians I know are not that way. I have worked with various people of different faith/belief and have enjoyed having a friendly discussion with them about it.
To summarise
Murder: B*LLS**T (The Crusades biggest hypocritical stain on Christianity ever! and no matter how hard they scrub that blood isnt coming off)
you are correct on that one and the Inquisition(which also turned christian against christian)
Adultery (Thou shalt not covent thy neighbours wife) or something like that more Christians or offshoots indulge in adulterous activity then many others)
In the US, the stats are the same for both christian and none christian
Bigamy (Towards Black people and Gay People)
I would have to disagree with this one. I am not saying that it does not happen. Do I agree with the gay life stlye, no. And I believe it is the life style, not the person that people don't like. And before you ask, I do know and am related to gay people with no problems in our relationship
Thats three examples need I go on to what the Christian church has done to indiginous peoples of other countries in the thrid world they believe in "Demons" Christian Evangelists in Nigeria and Angola have driven nails into peoples heads children for pities sake and you call that normal.....
And that is one of the things that kept me away from it.
Its all Hypocritical b***gak and before you say to me "Have you been to church" yes I have and its full of people who have issues who are trying to latch onto the bible bus thats not healing thats trading one set of bonds for another...
I don't doubt your churching. But we all have issues of some sort. Everyone deals with them in different ways. Just because you become a christian does not mean your problems just go away. We all live in the same world and these things effect us all differently.
Read the bible from cover to cover I have........... Then you'll realise
Have and my wife reads it at least 4 times a year (the whole thing)
I believe that there is nothing wrong with the bible but as humans we mess it up. You do not become perfect when you become a christian or any other faith.
People are ACTUALLY angry??? ....Well im sorry for having an angle Frazzled started this to be honest by doing what he does best stick his nose in when people are debating...and "Try" to be clever....
go frazzled......
(Sigh)... That image is so not accurate. Here corrected your typo.
EDIT. I'd advise losing the army guy as that violates the DAKKA forum rules and you'll get suspended. Just giving you fair warning.
Oh dont worry I wont lose the war for you....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hawkins wrote:
BOSS_PIMPALOTZ wrote:
Hawkins wrote:BP can you call a truce or something for a while, i understand and agree that God does not exist. ( personally , if he does, he has lot to answer for), but its getting old. pick it up later once things have calmed down. assuming others can as well.
People are ACTUALLY angry??? ....Well im sorry for having an angle Frazzled started this to be honest by doing what he does best stick his nose in when people are debating...and "Try" to be clever....
i didnt say angry, i said calm down.... and yes Frazz is somewhat responsibe as well but that doesnt mean your actions have to escalate accordingly.
Well tell him to put the toys back in the pram...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:I'm loving the weiner action in this thread.
Pity the recent discussion has failed to note the message in the first post.
And your contribution is exactly.......other than your clearly erractic erection?
People are ACTUALLY angry??? ....Well im sorry for having an angle Frazzled started this to be honest by doing what he does best stick his nose in when people are debating...and "Try" to be clever....
go frazzled......
(Sigh)... That image is so not accurate. Here corrected your typo.
EDIT. I'd advise losing the army guy as that violates the DAKKA forum rules and you'll get suspended. Just giving you fair warning.
Oh dont worry I wont lose the war for you....
I tried your honor, but he just wouldn't listen...
People are ACTUALLY angry??? ....Well im sorry for having an angle Frazzled started this to be honest by doing what he does best stick his nose in when people are debating...and "Try" to be clever....
go frazzled......
(Sigh)... That image is so not accurate. Here corrected your typo.
EDIT. I'd advise losing the army guy as that violates the DAKKA forum rules and you'll get suspended. Just giving you fair warning.
Oh dont worry I wont lose the war for you....
I tried your honor, but he just wouldn't listen...
While I don't generally reply to much on Dakka period, I couldn't help but reply to this. I haven't read it all, it's not worth it and I know that. I'm christian. Been playing games for better than 10 years. Far from that I just wanted to give the position of a fellow in our club.
Our buddy is in his late 50's. Was the pastor at a church for 10+ years. Is a hard working individual with grown up children a wife and a "DEMON" army! Oxymoron anyone?
Yes there are the occasional fanatical nut jobs out there that should probably be smacked; but I'd like to imagine that they are the minority as every religious person I've ever met/talked to in and out of my church has always seen the game as simply that. A game.
jflesch wrote:While I don't generally reply to much on Dakka period, I couldn't help but reply to this. I haven't read it all, it's not worth it and I know that. I'm christian. Been playing games for better than 10 years. Far from that I just wanted to give the position of a fellow in our club.
Our buddy is in his late 50's. Was the pastor at a church for 10+ years. Is a hard working individual with grown up children a wife and a "DEMON" army! Oxymoron anyone?
Yes there are the occasional fanatical nut jobs out there that should probably be smacked; but I'd like to imagine that they are the minority as every religious person I've ever met/talked to in and out of my church has always seen the game as simply that. A game.
See someone can play nice Frazzled just doesnt like to play nice....
jflesch wrote:While I don't generally reply to much on Dakka period, I couldn't help but reply to this. I haven't read it all, it's not worth it and I know that. I'm christian. Been playing games for better than 10 years. Far from that I just wanted to give the position of a fellow in our club.
Then to see where you stand based on my own arguments, riddle me this:
Would you ever avoid playing any given army, or any given game mechanic, on the basis of your religion?
Our buddy is in his late 50's. Was the pastor at a church for 10+ years. Is a hard working individual with grown up children a wife and a "DEMON" army! Oxymoron anyone?
He's the fat kid who's going to suspend you after he's goes downstairs for a drink if you don't lose the army guy with profanity on it. You've been warned by two Mods. The ten minute clock is ticking.
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Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Tbh this is the best 'I'm looking to get banned' whinefest I've seen in a long while.
As to my contribution, well I'm just a big fan of wiener dogs.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:
At that time, my Granddad returned from his work (he was a bus mechanic and had no interest in the 'holy rollers' my gran had joined up with). On seeing what was happening, that old guy, covered in engine oil stained overalls and a setting his toolbag down on the table, said very firmly.
"Right, you lot, out now. Wife, get my gammon and chips cooked. I'm gonna get a shower and if anyone is here when I get back downstairs that shouldn't be here, they'll be escorted outta my house by my foot up their ass..."
Just want to say that MeanGreenStompa's Granddad rocks. (Reminds me a lot of mine, funnily enough )
Frazzled wrote:He's the fat kid who's going to suspend you after he's goes downstairs for a drink if you don't lose the army guy with profanity on it. You've been warned by two Mods. The ten minute clock is ticking.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Tbh this is the best 'I'm looking to get banned' whinefest I've seen in a long while.
As to my contribution, well I'm just a big fan of wiener dogs.
And the elite Wiener Dog Cav arrive on the scene.
And why exactly ??? am I going to get banned when you are the one that kicked this all off????? I got a idea why dont you ban yourself?? as your the obvious perpertraitor of all of this.
I know at least one person on here has the balls to agree with me... Your equally to blame be a man and admit it...
Plus remove it yourself Im not trawling back umpteen post to do it.
BOSS_PIMPALOTZ wrote:
I know at least one person on here has the balls to agree with me...
So if someone doesn't agree with you, they're ball-less?
Plus remove it yourself Im not trawling back umpteen post to do it.
Real mature.........
Dude, I'm not religious in the slightest, and (ignoring the mud slinging)your argument against christianity is making me cringe. It gives atheism a bad name.
BOSS_PIMPALOTZ wrote:
I know at least one person on here has the balls to agree with me...
So if someone doesn't agree with you, they're ball-less?
Plus remove it yourself Im not trawling back umpteen post to do it.
Real mature.........
Dude, I'm not religious in the slightest, and (ignoring the mud slinging)your argument against christianity is making me cringe. It gives atheism a bad name.
In response to whoever it was that asked of me the questions I herein answer.
No I would not, not play a game based on my religion. Period. :p
Yes we feel it's kind of oxymoron(ish). A preacher who teaches of the good word playing an army representing that which he teaches is representative of evil.
However; we are adults and unlike some nut jobs can happily separate our beliefs from a game which is clearly not intended to in anyway teach what some fanatics think it does.
BOSS_PIMPALOTZ wrote:
I know at least one person on here has the balls to agree with me...
So if someone doesn't agree with you, they're ball-less?
Plus remove it yourself Im not trawling back umpteen post to do it.
Real mature.........
Dude, I'm not religious in the slightest, and (ignoring the mud slinging)your argument against christianity is making me cringe. It gives atheism a bad name.
@BossPimp : You're looking to get banned for a number of reasons, but mainly I think becuase of that image with the army guy swearing. I wish I had at least half the warning you had when I posted a pic with profanity. (But no, I got hammered down straight away )
Anyway, people do crazy things for a number of reasons. Religeon is just one of them.
Witch Hunts = Communist/Terrorist hunts.
Crusades = Foreign Intervention? (Really, they were the same thing)
Inquisition = Torture of terror suspects?
Apocalypse = Nukes?
I don't know. But I definitely know that religeon isn't the cause of the entire worlds problems. Maybe a symptom or sign, mabye a cure, but certainly not a cause.
BOSS_PIMPALOTZ wrote:
I know at least one person on here has the balls to agree with me...
So if someone doesn't agree with you, they're ball-less?
Plus remove it yourself Im not trawling back umpteen post to do it.
Real mature.........
Dude, I'm not religious in the slightest, and (ignoring the mud slinging)your argument against christianity is making me cringe. It gives atheism a bad name.
And now the Dakka "Swap shop" mod joins in
Man I must be popular........
You're clearly new to the OT. Here's how it works. Frazzled oft trolls people. He can be crude and offensive.
But you know what?
That doesn't automatically mean that your trolling is somehow justified.
I war responding to your crude, poorly put together unsubstantiated rant against christianity. Not your ongoing flame war. I couldn't care less about that. I'm a junior member of the mod team, and this ain't my section of the house. If you really think you're a big enough fish that the mods care enough to come down en masse, you're sorely mistaken. Hate to disappoint, but most of us really don't care about you flapping your flagella about in some strange attempt to prove your manliness by winning a flame fest with a random American guy over the web.
I'm back. This has been sent to She Who Must Be Obeyed. I've always wanted to be a natural disaster!
Another mod is apparently looking at the pic...uh oh.
Modquisition on.
Allrighty, I think for the good of the nation I am going to close this. BP appears intent on getting himself kicked off and since I've been an active participant I'm just shutting down to be fair. If others want to keep open for some reason PM me.
JEB_Stuart wrote:He brings shame down on the Union Jack...
And I care because?? no really why should I bat an eyelid at that statement.......
Do you really want to know? Really? I don't think you do. Just rest assured Peasant that Her Majesty the Queen does NOT approve of you or your actions...
Fraz, hope this doesn't offend, but I'm unlocking this sucker. On the reasoning of "not letting the terrorists (or trolls) win".
He wanted to derail the thread and throw poop around, so I cleaned most of it up. The thread isn't dead unless the civilized participants are no longer interested.
Please feel free to continue the original discussion, if anyone would like to resume it. If you find the last page or two of off-topic digression distracting, I'd be happy to delete most of it, or of course anyone can start a new thread if that suits their fancy. I'm just not inclined to let the decision be forced by a person seemingly intent on flaming and sassing mods for the forum equivalent of "death by cop."
Ok. lets keep this thread civil and ot. Honsetly. i could see why christians(or any religion) at first glance think the game is demonic. But they tend to forget that it is fiction. Im a devote christion and i dont get it. people need to nderstand that we should not judge. only god get to.
I would have loved to see that, shame nobody mentioned the GOD emperor. I've see Christian folk get REALLY annoyed about that before
out a little bit. And if Frazzled is saying you need to mellow out, it means you're about 30 minutes out from a major coronary.
There's also an interesting parallel to be drawn, but let's not go there. 
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