What do you think is the most underrated SM unit?

I'll get the ball rolling and say the TFC.

Many players tend to ignore and shoot at the bigger stuff like LR's, vindicators, predators, etc. The ability to fire 4 blasts a turn is awesome. It can kill MEQ's with the S6 shots and thin hordes with ignore cover rounds.

TFC is way too squishy. Any opponent that it can hurt (aka not fully Mech) should and will prioritize it to die ASAP. If you were to build an army around getting first turn (Inquisitor with Tarot and Sicarius for example) then it might be worth it.

Personally, I feel the Combi Pred (Autocannon with Lascannon Sides) is very nasty and not used enough. It's ability to reach out and touch enemy MCs or Vehicles is awesome.

That and HB ABs. The amount of Dakka they can put out is pretty amazing, especially for their price.

id back that up last tourny I took it to each game it was ignored for the first 3 rounds and then everything was aimed at it after its destructive potential was realised

My friend uses a TFC all the time against my orks. First turn I just pump lootas at it and force the techmarine to make 10 or so 2+ saves, and he always fails.

The most underrated unit to me are sniper scouts. They just hide in a building and shoot 4 sniper shots and 1 rocket.

TFC is a definite.

I'd say the TL-Lascannon with HB sponsons is pretty under rated. I like the versatlity it has, being able to do heavy damage to a vehicle or a horde army.

The humble Captain, with plasma pistol and power sword, kicking arse since I started in 3rd ed, though back then I used to have Imp Fists (though you probly wouldn't have guessed by looking ) and the original Lysander was awesome in a squad armed with just bolters

EDIT: thats Sergeant Lysander lol

Ultrafool wrote:My friend uses a TFC all the time against my orks. First turn I just pump lootas at it and force the techmarine to make 10 or so 2+ saves, and he always fails.

The most underrated unit to me are sniper scouts. They just hide in a building and shoot 4 sniper shots and 1 rocket.

Are you sure your playing TFC right?
The lootas should have killed the cannon way before they kill the Tech.

(It takes 22 shots to drop the Tech, but around 5 to drop the TFC itself)

Devs need more love...

RaegMachine wrote:Devs need to cost less points

Fixed that for ya

Devs are great - I just recently reread their entry - I forgot that the sergeant lets one of the weapons hit on a 2+!

The thing that is rough right now is the close combat is king and I kind of feel that the shootier units need to be scoring since the best assault units are either elite or fast so the devs get left out.

I don't get it.
Why are devs over priced?

You have cheaper ML than havocs...and about the only thing over priced would be lascannons, but Devs don't just = lascannons.

You pay the same for the same MEQs and get a free signum.

Sheesh...

Long Fangs get nearly all of it cheaper

But the issue some people have is that they trade that for less bodybags/durability.
So there is balance in that.

Fair point, but I like em with a razorback so that didn't occur to me

Well...they can't shoot out of it, so other than transporting them onto the board when Dawn of War, the razorback does not augment their durability without reducing offensive power by almost 100%.

I'll agree with the OP on the thunderfire.


put it in bolsterd ruins for a 3+ cover save on the cannon, with a 2+ armor save on the marine its a bit more durable than people think. Give it a Drop Pod for deployment versitility and it can rock pretty hard.

enemy runnin land raider spam? make them travel through difficult terrain for a 1/6th chance to immobilize!

enemy running bikers? put them in difficult terrain so they cant turbo boost!

enemy running horde? nuke em!

enemy running heavy infantry? Stack wounds!

I use 2-3 thunderfires so they are appreciated in my neck of the woods ;-)

Sanctjud wrote:Well...they can't shoot out of it, so other than transporting them onto the board when Dawn of War, the razorback does not augment their durability without reducing offensive power by almost 100%.

Its just more HB's really, 6 in total for long fangs plus RB

The pod is only useful for the TFC in Dawn of War...otherwise it's not worth wasting a round of shooting.
There are other uses for an empty pod though.

The Cover save is only used in ruins...sucks to be him when there are none...and this should happen at some point.

Else, I agree, it's an underdog and I really want to use it, but I just can't justify it over other options in my lists...they all seem good.

I think the Techmarine with Plasma Cannon Servitor crew is the most under-rated.

In this era of Mech Galore, I'm convinced that Scout bikers are the nastiest unit in the Vanilla codex. The three-bike unit w/ sgt meltabombs is staggeringly powerful for the points. Even if you splurge and toss in a combi-melta, you're only looking at 85 points.

If the marines go first, their opponent is virtually guaranteed to lose a tank (since the melta & krak bombs auto-hit). If their opponent is savvy to the threat, they almost have to start everything in reserves.

Either way, that's a huge game effect for the cost.

Some one help me. Whats TFC?

Thunderfire Cannon.

Thunder Fire Cannon.
Also i think the most unused is a Land Raider Reedemer, and also the Thunder Fire Cannon is never used, and its ignorned because its too squishy for my plasmaphobia.

I love the Land Raider Redeemer. Works very well in my Vulkan list. Do you smell roasted power armor?

No I smell massed meltas.

The most under appreciated unit in the SM army.

The humble Honor guard

for half the price of a captain each you get the best armor the chapter can afford. a weapon that will wound most models on a 2+ and can damage most vehicles.

and you get one guy that can really kill ICs and he can take Digital weapons.

They can also get auxilliary grenade launchers, how cool is that?


Ok Ok they really stink

Thunder hammer termies. I mean who would use those.


TFC is underated but i dont think its good.

Whirlwind.

Shaman wrote:Thunder hammer termies. I mean who wouldn't use those?

Fixed

Shaman wrote:TFC is underrated but i don't think its good.

It is both underrated and amazing.

Honor Guard are amazing are you kidding?
They cost 680 points with upgrades, but hey they look good doing it.

Actually, HG are salvagable if you equip them "right" (aka cheaply). Run them in a squad of 5 with a Banner and RB on the Champ and you have a 225 point squad that can implode a lot of units if you choose your targets correctly. They're not as flexible or point and click as TH/SS Termies, but they have some nice benefits (12" rerolling morale/pinning bubble, Frag grenades, transport options, and sweeping advance). That being said 90% of the time, you're better off with Assault Termies.

The Honour Guard are better than Terminators against non-Fearless opponents because they can engage in Sweeping Advances, I2-3 opponents in cover thanks to Frag Grenades, and they don't take up an Elite slot in the Force Organization Chart.

Keep the responses up.

With that said, I want to know the most underrated, not underused.

HG are fun to play, but I find them hard to use competitively. Same with command squads.

HG are the non-scoring Nobz of the Smurfs. They have tons of potential. If you run them full out, (relic blades, banners, auxiliary grenade launchers, etc..) then they cost upwards of 1000 pts. However, they don't die and they kill everything equally well. Of course, your opponent with 1000 pts of fire warriors will spam firepower at you... but, they're so much fun!

I'd go with devestators because every seems to hate on them, but they're pretty damn good.
i'd also say assault marines everythinks seems to think they're garbage

Dreadnoughts are uderrated (at least at my flgs)

I think devastators are a bit expensive. Maybe a small reduction in the weapons would be good. I do like to run them with 4 RL's.

Vanguard vets with jump packs

interesting choice. Why so? I believe that they are waaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy overcosted.

pdawg517 wrote:I think devastators are a bit expensive. Maybe a small reduction in the weapons would be good. I do like to run them with 4 RL's.

QFT. Once you see the points cost on Long Fangs for Wolves, it's clear why Devs aren't that great. Fangs get cheaper weapons, (technically) cheaper soldiers, and they can split fire between two different targets as long as the Sergeant is alive. Plus, Fangs can take 5 weapons, where Devs can only take 4 at max. That fifth heavy weapon can make a huge difference.

Deves are not expensive, they already get discounts on some heavy weapons.
The only overpricing is the lascannon.

Why to Long Fangs get that lovin'...? Because the squad size never surpasses 6 unless a Wolf Guard or IC joins them.

So they sacrifice defense for offense.
Vanilla Devs are pricier because they have the option of going for a more defensive squad with the flexibility of combat squadding at max size.
______________________

As others have voiced, ThunderFire Cannon. It's highly functional and is pretty much like the Long Fangs, trading defense for offense.

I'm gonna say dread's.... I never see anyone with dreads anymore!

this is not a sarcastic thread

unless your local meta is dredless

Its true, I don't see dreads at my local meta either. I see vindis, razorbacks, a lot of rhino-based antics, but never any dreads anymore.

I haven't the faintest clue why that is... A MM Dread in a pod can be a gamechanger.

As for my vote, I'd say chronus. Ignores shaken or stunned results, gets bs 5, all for 70 points? stuff him in a pred with lascannons sponsons and snipe all game.

According to the internet, the most underrated unit is:

Any model that cannot hold a melta gun.

Bah-dum, tish!

I had a game with lootas VS TFC a while back, only the opposite happened, TFC dropped airburst rounds on the lootas, scored 3 hits, and >16 wounds with no cover to wipe the squad out. (marines had first turn btw)

The TFC can be mean...but it is indeed squishy.

I would say Vangard Vets with jump packs
I play with a guy who uses 5 with PW/SS and they cause huge levels of carnage whenever they show and use there "Heroic Intervention" [usaly on Turn 2]

By the time the enemy realizes the threat the TFC is, its has more than earned its points back! Most of the time.

I think the TFC is a fantastically underrated unit, and that improves its effectiveness. Having your enemy not deal with a threat because he thinks it isn't a threat is a nice tactical advantage.

Sanctjud wrote:Deves are not expensive, they already get discounts on some heavy weapons.
The only overpricing is the lascannon.

Squad Size
- Devastators: 90 points for 5 models (4 Marines + a Sarge) but can take up to 5 additional vanilla Marines for 16 a pop.
- Long Fangs: 90 points for 6 models (5 Marines + a Sarge) but cannot take more models. Total reliance on decent saves to protect the unit, or killing everything that poses a threat to it.

Weapons (Cost)
- Devastators: 15 points for a HB, MM, or ML. 25 points for a PC, and 35 points for a Lascannon. Can only take four heavy weapons.
- Long Fangs: 5 points for a HB, 10 points for a ML or MM, 20 points for a PC, and 25 points for a Lascannon. Must take heavy weapons (Although really, why bother taking the squad if you don't fill those slots with HWs?)

Special Rules
- Devastators: Can give one model BS 5 each turn with a Signum. The leader must be alive, although with several ablative wound Marines this is very possible.
- Long Fangs: Can split fire between two units - thus avoiding spending Lascannon shots on horde or blasts on vehicles. The leader must remain alive.

Cost Comparison: (Identical loadouts, for the benefit of the doubt taking only 4 Fangs and a leader)
- Devastators: 5 Marines (4 + Sarge) = 90 Points
- 2x PC (50 points)
- 2x Missile (30 points)
Total: 170 points

- Long Fangs: 5 Marines (4 + Sarge) = 75 points
- 2x PC (40 points)
- 2x Missile (20 points)
Total: 135 points

It's not much of a difference, but it's there. Personally, I've never seen Devs used by vanilla Marine players, but both Wolf players at my FLGS use Long Fangs on a regular basis. Your point is valid, though - Devs are way more resilient, featuring 5 extra wounds. If you pay the extra 80 points for them, that is. Personally, I see the Fangs as being the better unit, as they are slightly cheaper and deadlier than the Devs (And the ability to split fire is just fantastic).

RxGhost, I totally agree with you. That is what can make it survivable. ( And a 3+ save in a ruin).


35 pts is a HUGE difference. You can do a lot with 35 pts.

@Locclo:

I was not talking about long fangs. Their role in the list is very different hence the different pricing.

Long Fangs are pretty much the ONLY standing infantry heavy weapons...so it makes sense they are cheap and get the extra hvy weapon to make up for it, and that the lower squad maximum makes then need to have different balancers.

As to my point of being cheaper already, I was more pointing towards CSM who still have to pay 20 points a pop for a ML as opposed to the 5 point discount SM get.

Anyway, the Devs are in the middle of the pack IMO, and the people crying about over expensive Devs just really doesn't make sense to me...but there is alot of whiners about a multitude of things, so I'm not suprised at the least .

But I Really like lascannons and think missile launchers look

Sanctjud, you make a pretty good point. I'm not saying that devastators are completely over costed and unusable. I use two squads in my planetstrike defense list. I do think that a small (5pt) reduction in weapons would be great. Especially with the Lascannons.

An interesting tactic I have seen with Devs before was 4 MM's. Set them up and there is a 24 inch no vehicle zone. I prefer 4 ML's because of the tactical duality they have. Maybe sprinkle in a couple LC's if running more than 1 Dev squad.

I have to agree with TFC being underrated. However, after helping a friend assembly his TFC I'm not sure I want to go through making one for myself.

Kavyaan Shrike + 10 Vanguards w/ jump packs and 2x LC.... Fleet veteran assault marines with 4 attacks on the charge, along with Shrike's rending stuff? I use them as an "ally" in my BT army..

PsiOmega wrote:I have to agree with TFC being underrated. However, after helping a friend assembly his TFC I'm not sure I want to go through making one for myself.

DingDingDing

we have a winrar.

the TFC model is a terribad pain in the ass to assemble. If they were available in plastic I might have bought one (even though I play Space Wolves, I would just have it because I like the aesthetics)

Even being tough to assemble, one of my friends has 4 of them, painted and all, and his tournament lists always include at least one.

In Apoc the TFC formation that gives the overwatch ability is just way overpowered.

Good unit, very underrated, hard to assemble model.

I love the firepower that the TFC is capable of putting out.

something that you have failed to mention in the Long Fangs / Devs debate is the ability of 10 devs with 4 heavy weapons to be split into combat squads. Thereofre being able to split their fire. And only taking up one heavy support choice. Personally I think that devs are great with 4 ML and they are a lot more survivable than longfangs, that die with a little bit of concentrated firepower their way. As for the most underrated unit, I cant say the TFC because they are becomming more and more popoular over here as people are finding that they are just awesome. I would say thet one of the most under rated units in the book are the captains and the masters they are a great HQ, cheap and all round good, with invul and decent stats. But people just love their special characters...

What about scout bikers? I've never seen anyone use them, and if you give the squad a locator beacon, use the scout move, slam in some drop pods w/ the DP assault special rule, and bam! your enemy has 20 marines/ 2 dreads/ whatever you want whooping his front line.

Hey, Vulkan is awesome

micahaphone wrote:What about scout bikers? I've never seen anyone use them, and if you give the squad a locator beacon, use the scout move, slam in some drop pods w/ the DP assault special rule, and bam! your enemy has 20 marines/ 2 dreads/ whatever you want whooping his front line.

Not to mention turn 1 vehicle charge with autohitting grenades or melta grenade if you buy it for the sgt. (assuming you go first, of course)

If you want to have fun, do a scout army (Bikers, LSSs, the whole bit) with Sicarius (reroll sieze) and Inquisitor with Tarot.

I have always thought that a scout company would be really fun to play.

The scout bikers sounds like tons of fun and something that may work.

Sanctjud wrote:But the issue some people have is that they trade that for less bodybags/durability.
So there is balance in that.

No they don't.

5 man dev squad w/4ml's is 150pts. 6 man LF squad w/5ml's is 140pts.

How do LF's have less 'durablity/body bags'? LF's have 1 'free wound' just as devs and still have one more ml.

If you add in one WG, the LF's are still only 8pts more AND have 2 'free wounds'.

If you add more 'durability' to dev squads, they cost even more for even less return.

OFC, you can add even more ML's to the LF squad, if you want, and stuff in a cyclone ML on WG, for the magical 7 ML squad.

Here, it would probably be the LSS. Nobody here sees the advantages of a late game Obj grabber that can assault 20" from either board edge.

@Imweasel:
I'm not talking about the same points cost.
I'm talking about the total number of members.
The deves have 10 while the LF have a max of 6 with respect to their own FoC's.

As for less return, that is relative. Taking a wound before the ML and having it operational for one more turn as opposed to being more economical and dying sooner...it all depends.

Deves and LF's are different but similar units, I think it's silly comparing them.
Deves are made essentially for a 5 man squad or a 10 man squad. 10 man to split into 2 combat squads if need be, while the 10 man squad is beefy enough to take the lumps their way.
LF have a suedo-combat squad with respect to splitting fire...but that's the devs for you, you pay more to be more flexible.

You must declare all shooting with LF, with Combat Squadded Devs, you get to see what happens with the first volley and then apply the second squad as you see fit, in addition to that you pay more for more durability.

Like I said, different but similar, Devs are more flexible when combat squad is an option and are more durable but cost more for that flexibility.
LF seem to me to be economical due to their lower body bags in which specialist are due to die earlier as they have no options for body bags.

Now, everyone has different opinions about whether or not bodybags are needed, but I'm just noting down the simple fact that the Deves have it as an option and the LF really don't.

Sanctjud wrote:@Imweasel:
I'm not talking about the same points cost.
I'm talking about the total number of members.
The deves have 10 while the LF have a max of 6 with respect to their own FoC's.

As for less return, that is relative. Taking a wound before the ML and having it operational for one more turn as opposed to being more economical and dying sooner...it all depends.

Deves and LF's are different but similar units, I think it's silly comparing them.
Deves are made essentially for a 5 man squad or a 10 man squad. 10 man to split into 2 combat squads if need be, while the 10 man squad is beefy enough to take the lumps their way.
LF have a suedo-combat squad with respect to splitting fire...but that's the devs for you, you pay more to be more flexible.

You must declare all shooting with LF, with Combat Squadded Devs, you get to see what happens with the first volley and then apply the second squad as you see fit, in addition to that you pay more for more durability.

Like I said, different but similar, Devs are more flexible when combat squad is an option and are more durable but cost more for that flexibility.
LF seem to me to be economical due to their lower body bags in which specialist are due to die earlier as they have no options for body bags.

Now, everyone has different opinions about whether or not bodybags are needed, but I'm just noting down the simple fact that the Deves have it as an option and the LF really don't.

40k has turned into MSU for competitive armies.

It is much more efficient and effective to take more units than to 'upgrade' them with 'bodybags'.

For 460pts, you get the privilege of taking 2 x 10 man dev squads w/4ml's that you can combat squad into 4 x 5 man dev squads w/2ml's each. That's a total of 8ml's.

For 420pts, I can take 3 x6 LF's squads w/5ml's each. I can't combat squad, but I can shoot at 6 targets as opposed to your 4, but you do have the advantage of seeing what's happening first before announcing more fire, so call it a wash.

I have almost DOUBLE the number of ml's, making my list more durable and redundant, with only 2 less 'bodybags'. For 40pts less.

The only disadvantage I have is it takes one more foc to do it, but I give up less kp's IF you combat squad.

Fang's win hands down. The point you are missing is that my 'bodybag' guys are not just there hanging out waiting to die. Mine are shooting str8 ap3 shots.

imweasel wrote:Fang's win hands down. The point you are missing is that my 'bodybag' guys are not just there hanging out waiting to die. Mine are shooting str8 ap3 shots.

I'm completely gunning for Fangs (I never run a list without at least one squad of 'em) but I have to point out that Devs can have the extra bodies to stack wounds on - with Fangs, you have to put wounds on a heavy weapon or the SL. With a 10-man Dev squad, you can have 4 heavy weapons, a sarge, and have 5 extra wounds to soak up shots, allowing the heavy weapons to keep shooting. With Fangs, if they get shot at, there is always a risk of losing someone you need; with Devs, you can potentially have five marines die over the course of the game and never lose a single heavy.

Locclo wrote:I'm completely gunning for Fangs (I never run a list without at least one squad of 'em) but I have to point out that Devs can have the extra bodies to stack wounds on - with Fangs, you have to put wounds on a heavy weapon or the SL. With a 10-man Dev squad, you can have 4 heavy weapons, a sarge, and have 5 extra wounds to soak up shots, allowing the heavy weapons to keep shooting. With Fangs, if they get shot at, there is always a risk of losing someone you need; with Devs, you can potentially have five marines die over the course of the game and never lose a single heavy.

You are not getting the point at all. I still have the bodies, for less points, it's one more foc slot, but my 'bodies' are shooting missiles.

Who cares if they die with a ml or a bolter?!?!?!?

Good Grief!

imweasel wrote:

Locclo wrote:I'm completely gunning for Fangs (I never run a list without at least one squad of 'em) but I have to point out that Devs can have the extra bodies to stack wounds on - with Fangs, you have to put wounds on a heavy weapon or the SL. With a 10-man Dev squad, you can have 4 heavy weapons, a sarge, and have 5 extra wounds to soak up shots, allowing the heavy weapons to keep shooting. With Fangs, if they get shot at, there is always a risk of losing someone you need; with Devs, you can potentially have five marines die over the course of the game and never lose a single heavy.

You are not getting the point at all. I still have the bodies, for less points, it's one more foc slot, but my 'bodies' are shooting missiles.

Who cares if they die with a ml or a bolter?!?!?!?

Good Grief!

Dude. Calm down. I'm not even arguing with you. I'm just saying that Devs can take the extra wounds and not lose heavy shots. Fangs can't. Although, do you really only run them with MLs? They're decent, but they're really only good for dealing with vehicles and hordes, not MEQs. The blast won't hit more than one or two marines (Of which it then has to wound and fail the save) and the krak can potentially only kill one, assuming they're not in cover - which in the realms of 5th Edition, is fairly uncommon.

Locclo wrote:Dude. Calm down. I'm not even arguing with you. I'm just saying that Devs can take the extra wounds and not lose heavy shots. Fangs can't. Although, do you really only run them with MLs? They're decent, but they're really only good for dealing with vehicles and hordes, not MEQs. The blast won't hit more than one or two marines (Of which it then has to wound and fail the save) and the krak can potentially only kill one, assuming they're not in cover - which in the realms of 5th Edition, is fairly uncommon.

The extra wound argument for devs doesn't hold water.

I have killed (or neutered) termie squads with 15 blast templates and GH bolter shots. I have other things for meq, like rifleman dreads and tcav. I can have problems with a lot of av13/14. AV 12 or less? I can get eat that up pretty quick. It usually comes down to who makes better cover saves or gets to alpha strike. My 2k list and 1850 wolf lists are pretty standard and cookie cutter, but they are damn effective. I just need more table time with them. I just don't play enough.

Occasionally, when I run Logan, one LF squad uses lc's.

I also think that ac/lc sponson preds are an adequate sub for LF's, or for marine use. That configuration is much better than a dev squad.

Well, now I want to see what things people would change in the SM codex.

I have a couple.
1. Make Vanguard cheaper: they are a fun unit to play in friendly games, but too expensive for competitive games.

2. Give LR's either a rule of option for dozer blades. I have had too many LR's roll 1's on dangerous terrain.

Scout Bikers.

Scout Bikers with a power fist are surprisingly effective and versatile.

What kind of success have you had with scout bikers?

First turn awesomeness and then die, or... just die.
At least, that's what happens if you are very aggressive with them.

I think their only failing is that they still take a Fast Attack Choice when I have a Captain on a bike, if they be a scoring unit, I'd be all over them, but as it is now, I don't have any FA slots left for scout bikers who...are IMO alot more desirable than Tactical Squads...

devs 3th are underrated in sm tfc is 2nd and vulkan is most underrated i mean who uses that bad rules and stuff/sarkasm

pdawg517 wrote:What kind of success have you had with scout bikers?

If you get turn one, infiltrate them and then scout into assault range, wreck vehicles. If not, outflank and wreck vehicles or attack backfield units/objective claimers. They tend to make their points back as long as you don't go over the top with upgrades. I've also had success using them with a combi-melta, melta bombs, and nothing else.

I'll have to give them a try sometime.

The TFC can be leathal, but around here it is the first thing people target. So much that the guys that ran them stopped running them. They would get one maybe 2 turns to unse them. Either the Cannon would explode or the Tech died.

People playing against them did not ignore them by any streach.

I would say that Attack Bikes are underrated. Many hate them, but in a squad with a 2 melta-type and 1 HB, they fething rock. All meltas = 36 inch vehicle if you go here you die, and hb = death to any infantry squad that is horde.

I run 12 Attack Bikes at 1500...yes 12...

Sanctjud wrote:I run 12 Attack Bikes at 1500...yes 12...

Uhoh, I have to ask some questions. How do you get to 12 AB's? 9 in the 3 FA slots and 3 as troops? And which configurations do you run?

I go with:

9 Bikers, 2 Meltas, Fist, Hvy Bolter Attack Bikes.
9 Bikers, 2 Meltas, Fist, Hvy Bolter Attack Bikes.
9 Bikers, 2 Flamers, Fist, Hvy Bolter Attack Bikes.
3 Multi-Melta Attack Bikes.
3 Multi-Melta Attack Bikes.
3 Hvy Bolter Attack Bikes.
And a biker captain with gear to top it all off.
1500.

So it's an even distribution of attack bike configs, just for fun

Sanctjud - I have tried all bike lists and end up getting screwed with my opponents putting objectives on higher levels of ruins - does that happen with you? how do you deal with it?

Play for the draw or shoot them to death... there really isn't much sadly, but it's only 1500 points.

It has happened to me only a handful of times and I do just that, I shoot them to death so the game ends in a Win or a Draw.

The only times I have lost is when I screw distances up and get 3/4 of my army locked in combat and then I'm wiped out by turn 4. That is every game I've lost...getting caught and getting wiped out...still fun if you can believe me.

But yes, for those that are risk averse with the whole (objectives on 3rd floor) then it's not something for you. But at 1850 and beyond I do get other elements in my list to 'deal' with this issue.

I generally send 9-10 assault terminators trudging there to clean up house. But only 1850+.

I think all the options have a place. It just takes application and actual prologed usage to get used to a unit regardless of perceived power level.

I (as I have before) will cast my vote for TFC, glass cannon it literally is.

Besides anything non-blue color scheme? Most underrated unit has to be the Redeemer. Pick anything without a melta, roll up and cook everything alive. For extra credit, add a nasty assault unit. Then you're cooking a unit or two and smashing another.

Using the machine spirit to fry a second unit is an amazing trick that I rarely see, but it can ruin a MEQ army's day.

I haven't used the TFC but am starting to think one is in order.
My vote goes to bikes in general, most people think they're too squishy to do anything until it's too late.
Also, a close second goes to dreads.Never see them played and when they are, they are ignored till they start to wreak face.

Mad Rabbit, I love the LRR! It is the centerpiece of my salamanders army (with th/ss termies in it!). I love telling Marine players that my flamestorm cannon is not interested in his armor save.

pdawg517 wrote:I love telling Marine players that my flamestorm cannon is not interested in his armor save.

Nor their cover save .
The only issues is getting there, which is hard vs. some armies, but that is to be expected.

If only it was twin linked w/ vulkan!

Thank God it isn't!