Which Primarch would you say would win in one on one martial combat? Basically, weapons included (not to the extent where they shift the balance too much) and pre-heresy/daemon primarchs.
This would also be ignoring psychic powers and ranged weaponry, ie. in a close combat duel, which primarch is the best?
I think we can rule out Ferrus Manus and Magnus as they were both defeated in such combat and some might argue that sanguinus could be ruled out also, however it could be argued as to the extent of Horus' change as a result of Chaos. Also, in terms of Mortarion, being 1v1, his deathshroud are not included, nor are the lost primarchs or the emperor.
Personally I feel that it's either Fulgrim (bested Ferrus, sought perfection, defeated an avatar (don't mention Calgar!) and was a skilled swordsman), or Leman Russ ( arguably almost on par with the Emperor, bested Magnus, undeniably powerful, ruthless and skilled and I'd swear I read that he was the best Primarch in CC when they apparently duelled one another). However I can't imagine it's coincidence that these are also the Primarchs of the chapters/legions I collect.
Anyways, which Primarch would you say would win in a duel?
Although many will argue this and even i know it won't be true, i'll say Alpharius, with the argument that the guy will plan every microsecond of that battle, and for every possible strike he would already have a counterattack at the ready.
And for those of you that will say he got wtfpwn by Rowboat, i'll say bring forth proof
I would have to say Dorn might be very tough to bring down, I don't think he would give up at all in a fight. I would also bet he would be a fairy good swordsmen due the history of the imperial fists.
aka_tizz wrote:Although many will argue this and even i know it won't be true, i'll say Alpharius, with the argument that the guy will plan every microsecond of that battle, and for every possible strike he would already have a counterattack at the ready.
And for those of you that will say he got wtfpwn by Rowboat, i'll say bring forth proof
Now there's a good one!
Actually, I think we've been told a few times that if it isn't Angron, then it is only 1 or 2 others...
Actually, I think that quote is from CORAX in the new RAVEN'S FLIGHT audio book. (Corax is, incidentally, quite the bad ass in that audio book!)
He basically mentions that 'we're screwed if Angron's here!' and that only primarch "x and y" would even have a chance of defeating him...
Russ, because of his keen instincts and his experience in close combat fighting. He's the ultimate mix of brutal force, finesse and self control
Angron, because he's the guy you really don't want to see swinging an axe at you, and because of his high threshold for pain
Sanguinius, because of the extra mobility his wings could provide, and because apparently he was a fighter of great finesse
Perturabo... because nobody ever walked away from a full storm bolter clip at point blank, and because he's the only one who could have been planning a showdown like this for decades...
He basically mentions that 'we're screwed if Angron's here!' and that only primarch "x and y" would even have a chance of defeating him...
Sadly, I can't remember who "x and y" are!
Yes, Angron ( being the berzerker psycho ) is the top dog. My guess as to the challengers X and Y? Lemann Russ certainly. Not sure about the second one, maybe Sanguinius.
I didn't even think about Angron until Alpharius mentiond him his is an HH book I need to read... If everyone is at the top of their game I honestly don't think Russ could take him, it would be like that dual between Lucious and (Loken?).
For the record I think that only reason that Sanguinius lost to Horus is that he would be pleading for his brother to stop the war, or he would refuse to strike a killing blow. There is no reason to discount him from this discussion.
Gulliman is a schoolar, how would he be the best in H2H?
The battle you're thinking of is Lucius and Tarvitz (I think though Lucius did lose to Loken as well). In the end, tactics lost to skill, so if anything it proves that Dorn, Alpharius, and Rowboat are all contenders.
This dispute won't be ended for a simple reason. While each Primarch has strengths and weaknesses, in the end, they were made to surpass one another in some way. Each would exploit the other's weakness. Hell, I'd say even Lorgar, who was known for his speech not battle prowess, has a chance purely because he also has an analytical mind.
Leman Russ never lost two anyone but the Emperor close combat is his forte ...the Lion doesn't count... Fulgrim...the "perfect warrior" killed an avatar and 2 primarchs (surprised no one mention him) and whats the obsession with Sanguinus and Angron they both don't have any primarch kills and Angron IMO is probably the weakest because of his fighting stye.
I agree with laugher, Angron's rage and foam at the mouth form of fighting would easily be picked apart by more technically sound primarchs such as Fulgrim or Sanguinius or Russ.
Its hard to say but i think that Fulgrim would definitely be tough to match in one on one combat.
Remember, the Emperor's children perfect ALL forms of war so Fulgrim would have noted his brothers' fighting styles and learned a specific form of swordplay to counter each individual style of the other primarchs.
I'm pretty sure we're talking Pre-Heresy here. And if so, Fulgrim wasn't the champion killer everyone is thinking he was. He wasn't godly until he got the daemon-sword, so I'd say he actually isn't great.
And the idea Anngron has no fighting skill is absurd. He's a ragetastic beast, but he knows the difference between a wide stance and an obvious guard. He does have a fighting style and you can bet it revolves around throwing his weight into his attacks, exploitable but very hard to do when he's hitting so hard and so fast.
Just Cause it is typically me to say it
KHAN.
why. He and russ would be an awesome fight.
They Both grew up savage warriors more the soldiers.
I mean Khan took on Palatine hunter party by himself and unarmed. and just to be a jerk he send back one guy with the head of his son with a note.
Before you call the Asylum, let me explain. Vulkan in my mind is possibly one of the most "well rounded" of the primarchs. By that, I mean he can do a lot of different things-He's quick thinking, he's strong, he's used to pain, and he's such a great craftsmen he would have access to some of the most potent weaponry. His only real weakness would be his pride-believing he could take on anyone. So, I think Vulkan would stand a good chance against any of his brothers, even if he wasn't the overall victor.
Sanguinus and Fulgrim,I heard that even the Leman Russ told that Sanguinius was better swordsman than him,while better in sword I think that Sanguinius would lose against Russ in unarmed combat.
I'd like to point out that Fulgrim defeated an Avatar (and a Wraithlord), and his brother while under the influence of a daemon weapon containing the essence of a Keeper of Secrets: you know, causes Instant Death if you so much as cut your finger.
Nurglitch wrote:I'd like to point out that Fulgrim defeated an Avatar (and a Wraithlord), and his brother while under the influence of a daemon weapon containing the essence of a Keeper of Secrets: you know, causes Instant Death if you so much as cut your finger.
Its Mangus... He can turn your mind to pudding and then come over and put a boot in ur @$$..... Dont mess why pyskers... May be whimpy on the outside but inside there going too Mind&^&%( you....
StarGate wrote:Its Mangus... He can turn your mind to pudding and then come over and put a boot in ur @$$..... Dont mess why pyskers... May be whimpy on the outside but inside there going too Mind&^&%( you....
I agree with many of the suggestions, I'd say on people's points so far:
- Angron - although my bro' also suggested him - is almost certainly the most experienced Primarch in CC, however I imagine him neglecting technical ability due to his rage/anger, I'm not saying he's unskilled or anything, but I imagine his anger would cost him. Personally, but yeah, I still won't count him out per-say, but I think he's a double-edged sword(axe(s))...
- Fulgrim - I can't deny that the daemon weapon did have an effect on him, however I'm not sure at the point of defeating Ferrus (other than the killstroke) an avatar and wraithlord he was physically influenced by the sword, I mean, surely if he was he wouldn't have been able to let go of it (threw in air) when he defeated the avatar, whereas he couldn't later IIRC. I still wouldn't rule him out... and he did defeated ferrus using a non-daemonically possessed hammer... But yeah, rule out the Gulliman kill...
- Sanguinus - I also believe he could be capable of it, he defeated a greater daemon (lets not mention his legs eh?), had wings (mobility, as mentioned) and his legion was specialised in assault so I think it could well be him.
- Horus - He was also definately capable in CC, but it wouldnt be his speciality and when he defeated sanguinus he was chaos-ficated (I did A2 English, Ill make up words! ), he would be very good, no doubt, but I suspect others were better.
- Leman Russ - Like Laughter I remember hearing that Leman Russ lost to no-one but the Emperor and he would've been VERY good atleast, best? I suspect so but I'll admit being biased...
- Magnus - Stargate, i did at the top say ruling out psychic powers, even so he got beaten by Russ...
But yeah, i think this debate will go on, hopefully so, I think it's an interesting question tbh and Im impressed by people staying reasonable so far...
Russ, who the Emperor made to take out other Primarchs, would beat any of the others in one-on-one close combat. There is no question.
For the record, I don't think Sanguinius could have beaten Horus no matter what. The idea that he was trying to talk Horus down and so wasn't fighting to his fullest is a noble thought that suits Sanguinius's reputation but I doubt that the Angel really believed there was any chance of that by the time he was on the bridge of the battlebarge.
In a fistfight, no weapons, with armour, Ferrus, no contest, it was just Fulgrim's HAXX deamon sword that won, and he basically spent hie entire life trying to work out and purge any preceved weakness. Plus he has C'tan hands
With weapons, I would have to say Russ, the aforementioned Primarch-sized failsafe attack dog labled "pull in case of heresy." As this is pre-heresy, I refuse to count Fulgim's sword.
Firstly, Sanguinus was mentioned to be the greatest swordsman by many. I'd like to admit that if it weren't for him trying to talk Horus into stopping, he may've been able to live until the Emperor showed up and neither would be dead/half-dead. Horus himself even said Sanguinus was a beast to behold on the battlefield and he was more powerful than the Chaos-Lover.
This aside, I'd have to say the best bet would be Leman Russ. There WAS A REASON he was sent inadvertenly to Prospero to bring in Magnus. He was the primarch slayer in original fluff and was believed to be the most ruthless in combat, not insane like Anngron.
Im going to say that Fulgrim and Alpharius are the two biggest contenders.
Fulgrim because in the book he help the sword up to distract the avatar and hen beat him to death WITH HIS BARE HANDS!!! the Alpharius because he is so good at picking apart an enemys weaknesses before the know whats going on.(that how he killed Gulliman.)
so thats my argument.
My favorite Primarch is the best one and I dont read opening post!
^ lots of people in this thread.
All primarchs are deadly demi gods.
So lets look at what we have here.
Lemon Russ son of Mary sue can look at a planet and it explodes. Also extremely popular with the neckbeards. So hes in.
Horus is the favorite but never bet on a favorite so hes out.
Sanguigunius is really popular is an angel and has a new codex. So hes in.
Dorn, rowboat gilly, KHAN, Vulkan, Ferrus Manus, Alpharius, Omegeon, Perturbo, Fulgrim all the other no hope average primarchs go here.
Leaving Angron., The only primarch who will likely never get a HH book. The one who is awesome without being the protagonist (lemon russ just wait for dans book the we'll get heaps of threads about him being the best soon). The Primarch who spent almost all of his early years as a freaking gladiator in CC without guns, whose implants were to make him better at close combat not worse.
The facts are clear Pre heresy Angron is the most deadly at close combat. He spent his early years doing CC, was modified with dark age technology to be better at it. Leman Russ (canis helix you say.. unfortunately in being a bezerker angron is better, Russ is a pretend savage anyways) and Sangy cannot claim any advantages other then just being primarchs they did not spend all their time fighting in CC..
Angron wins.
Stop toting your favorite. (Alpahrius and the Night haunter are my favorites)
Lemon Russ son of Mary sue can look at a planet and it explodes. Also extremely popular with the neckbeards. So hes in.
Russ is a pretend savage anyways) and Sangy cannot claim any advantages other then just being primarchs they did not spend all their time fighting in CC..
Angron wins.
Except Leman Russ fought to survive. Not in the same way Anngron had to in order not to die a gruesome death in the arena, but to actually go on living and not starve from no fishing grounds or proper places to live.
FENRIS! The almighty death planet of survival. Sorry, but I still say the axe-wielding bastard of a primarch has a good chance against Anngron. Angryon had a serious berserker craze to him and used little style, which is said in a lot of stories about him. Kharn was able to see flaws in his fighting style when he just went down to speak to him. Russ, on the other hand, did have style and was clear-headed enough to use it.
I think somewhere i read that Sanguinius was equal to Horus during the Siege of Terra, despite all of Horus's gifts from the chaos gods but Sanguinius was too tired from all the fighting.
StarGate wrote:Its Mangus... He can turn your mind to pudding and then come over and put a boot in ur @$$..... Dont mess why pyskers... May be whimpy on the outside but inside there going too Mind&^&%( you....
Wimpy on the outside? The dude was a giant! He'd spend more time scraping the wafer-thin remains of the other primarchs off his boot soles than he would squishing them.
Vlad Von Carstien wrote: the Alpharius because he is so good at picking apart an enemys weaknesses before the know whats going on.(that how he killed Gulliman.)
so thats my argument.
Actually, Alpharius was (arguably) killed by gulliman and lost that fight because he incorrectly percieved weakness, it was Fulgrim that beat-up Rowboat...
Well I think it's been pretty much narrowed down to, in order of popularity, Angron, Russ, Sanguinus and Fulgrim IMHO, which I agree with, however, bias as it may be, I still dont think Angron would be the best 1v1, I feel Russ had it...
As I said, I think Angrons simple rage (his enhancements made him more bloodthirsty and stronger IIRC) would hamper his technical ability, whereas I feel Russ has the balance between brute force, cunning and ability. As I said, although he's one of my favourite's, I still think Russ would have it, people have made good points for both Russ and Angron, but I still feel Russ would have it...
And as has been said, if unarmed then Ferrus would almost certainly get it due to having shiney hands...
As I said, I think Angrons simple rage (his enhancements made him more bloodthirsty and stronger IIRC) would hamper his technical ability, whereas I feel Russ has the balance between brute force, cunning and ability. As I said, although he's one of my favourite's, I still think Russ would have it, people have made good points for both Russ and Angron, but I still feel Russ would have it...
And as has been said, if unarmed then Ferrus would almost certainly get it due to having shiney hands...
As someone who has fought with an axe before. . . technique really doesn't matter that much. An axe is kind of halfway between a sword and a mace, you basically just hit things with the edge until they stop twitching. With a sword, technique is VERY important, not so much with an axe.
So basically, I would vote Angron just because being stronger is more important than being technically proficient with his chosen weapon. And in a strength contest, Angron wins. If Leman Russ and Angron had butted heads, Angron would have won just because he would swing his weapon faster/harder, which is what you need when you're fighting with large weapons.
Give Angron a stiletto and he'd be screwed. With Gorefather in his hands, I wouldn't care to bet on anyone to beat him.
Fighting humans/humanoids is different from fighting Primarchs and with a primarch in the Arena i doubt the people of the planet that he lived on found it amusing to put him against one opponent. Angron also never killed anything as awesome as a wraithlord, bloodthirster, avatar, or primarch...
I'm not sure on the precise time period here, but if it includes the whole heresy then the final incarnation of Horus wins, hands down. He crippled the Emperor.
For comparison, Russ lost to the Emperor without effort, while Angron's attacks saw him sent to his legion for essentially chillaxe lessons. Horus' final version, blessed by all 4 gods, was the galaxy's waking nightmare, the incarnation of the Warp's contempt for the Materium. No fouler foe has ever existed.
Russ used Mjalnar, which was a sword and not an axe. so the arguement that Angry-ron would win becuase they both used large simple weapons is a bit flawed.
Armed, I would say that Sangy actually has the advantage of being the best swordsman, the only reason Horus killed him was because of the blessings of all the chaos gods, (whom which would not count, because then its actually 1v5)
After the sparkly-vampire I would say Russ is a close second. Angron may have spent his early life as a pit fighter, but who was he fighting? normal people? pphhhht, sorry, he is angry and more than a bit psychologically messed up, but he was not the best in close-combat.
Unarmed would be a fight between Ferrus and Russ, but I think Russ would still win out of sheer awesomeness and fanboy-ism.
Vlad Von Carstien wrote: the Alpharius because he is so good at picking apart an enemys weaknesses before the know whats going on.(that how he killed Gulliman.)
so thats my argument.
Actually, Alpharius was (arguably) killed by gulliman and lost that fight because he incorrectly percieved weakness, it was Fulgrim that beat-up Rowboat...
Why does everyone remember this part, but conveniently forget to mention that the Ultramarines themselves have no record of this ever taking place, and the whole thing was probably a fake, as the Inquisitor 'reporting' it was eventually revealed to be an agent of... the Alpha Legion?
If it came down to Angron v. Russ, Russ would triumph. They both rage no doubt but Russ has a great advantage seemingly shared by no other Primarch--a sense of humor or, more particularly, a sense of irony. This is an edge because it lets Russ be sincerely self-critical. Russ may have many flaws but overweening hubris is not one of them. That cannot be said for any other Primarch. I know I will draw the objection of Sanguinius's nobility but I would assert that there is a strong element of overconfidence in his confrontation of Horus. Horus comes off in this thread as primarily a strategic genius rather than an excellent fighter, which I think is absolutely false. He may not have been as mighty a melee combatant as Angron, Sanguinius, or Russ but I doubt he would ever allow himself to engage any enemy at his own disadvantage.
hmm well now that I'm a little more educated thanks to the thread I would say Fulgrim Russ sanguinius and Angron are the top contenders.
But if psychic powers were in I would say Magnus and mortarain would be real contenders too.
Leman Russ all the way, he was one of the best fighters and had a spear that demolished some of the biggest creatures he went up against with a single cast.
That and he's my home team... i gotta root for him
Honestly, Russ. However, each contender was made equally in most feilds, excelling at one, and that was how thier chapter was shaped. You cna't really compare.
@sniperjolly: What is this shoddy "with pets" category anyway?!?!
I put russ in top place in combat, but I needed Sang to have something so I decided that if Freki and Gerri were counted as part of his wargear, he would definatly win. (probably without it, even)
You on the other hand . . . you do realize that Russ had no intention of killing Jonson in that fight? The same cannot be said for Jonson's intentions toward Russ.
I'm not discounting any of the other primarchs (except Magnus and Ferrus) but I still feel Russ would be the best in a duel, I believe against heavy/standard infantry Angron would be the best, no doubt, however I feel in a duel Russ would win, or Sanguinus or Fulgrim, but my moneys on Russ.
Also, I concur with Manchu, Russ stopped and laughed before Lion felled him. I do believe that Horus would be very good, however, unlike say Russ or Angron, he excels in strategy rather than combat...
Just Dave wrote:I'm not discounting any of the other primarchs (except Magnus and Ferrus) but I still feel Russ would be the best in a duel, I believe against heavy/standard infantry Angron would be the best, no doubt, however I feel in a duel Russ would win, or Sanguinus or Fulgrim, but my moneys on Russ.
Also, I concur with Manchu, Russ stopped and laughed before Lion felled him. I do believe that Horus would be very good, however, unlike say Russ or Angron, he excels in strategy rather than combat...
if he was the best the fight would not have lasted as long as it did (and whos to say Russ wouldnt have punched the Lion in the head if he turned away first eh?)
The only thing we are figuring out in this discussion is who can make the best argument for a particular primarch. Oh but xxxx pulls out his laser gun! Oh but my guy has a laser gun defense array ! Oh but my laser gun can penetrate laser defense arrays! You're dead! Nuh uh! etc etc etc until eternity.
Even the cases where a primarch has fought and killed another primarch may not have turned out that way if the battle was fought multiple times. Many lost because of the emotion/shock of seeing their brother fighting them or through the aide of chaos. Sang might not have fought at full capacity, horus had the power of chaos behind him, why didn't magnus melt russ' brains, why would alpharius/omegon fight another primarch straightforward at all?
Manchu wrote:
You on the other hand . . . you do realize that Russ had no intention of killing Jonson in that fight? The same cannot be said for Jonson's intentions toward Russ.
Alpharius wrote:Because the Lion, in the end, sucker punched Russ?
Besides, little is known 'for sure' about any of this.
In fact, reading A THOUSAND SONS right now, and having a hard time seeing who could beat Magnus!
Though it is 'his' book after all...
Agreed Alpharius. I myself am reading it and wondering how this devilbeast of a Primarch wasn't venerated as the best of the best. Some of the stuff going on in this book makes Russ and Anngron look like sick puppies.
Alpharius wrote:Because the Lion, in the end, sucker punched Russ?
Besides, little is known 'for sure' about any of this.
In fact, reading A THOUSAND SONS right now, and having a hard time seeing who could beat Magnus!
Though it is 'his' book after all...
Agreed Alpharius. I myself am reading it and wondering how this devilbeast of a Primarch wasn't venerated as the best of the best. Some of the stuff going on in this book makes Russ and Anngron look like sick puppies.
True, but remember this is the Thousand Sons point of view book.
It will be interesting to see the Wolves' side of things.
Well, it will also be interesting to see where this ends, as I'm only 1/3 of the way through and I think there are a lot more surprises in store!
Manchu wrote:
You on the other hand . . . you do realize that Russ had no intention of killing Jonson in that fight? The same cannot be said for Jonson's intentions toward Russ.
and your incontrovertible evidence?
intention; Russ was angry that the Lion took his prize kill, the Lion thought Russ was a traitor.
Russ was just duking it out for honor, the Lion was fighting for his life/attempting to slay a (not quite) traitor.
Manchu wrote:
You on the other hand . . . you do realize that Russ had no intention of killing Jonson in that fight? The same cannot be said for Jonson's intentions toward Russ.
and your incontrovertible evidence?
intention; Russ was angry that the Lion took his prize kill, the Lion thought Russ was a traitor.
Russ was just duking it out for honor, the Lion was fighting for his life/attempting to slay a (not quite) traitor.
That's right, I remember. Lion was trying so hard to kill Russ, he laid him out on the floor, and totally stabbed him all over.
Wait, no he didn't.
Rather, he simply considered being attacked a stain on his honour, which he sought to rectify. Russ was duking it out for honour, as was the Lion.
I think that the fight took the piss out of the Lion, hence the cheap shot. My interpretation has always been that the Lion fought as hard as he could under the assumptions Demogerg mentioned and couldn't get anywhere whereas Russ was just wraslin. The fact that Jonson punched Russ in the face while Russ was having a chuckle at the whole thing is pretty good evidence that the Lion takes himself very, very, very seriously.
Manchu wrote:I think that the fight took the piss out of the Lion, hence the cheap shot. My interpretation has always been that the Lion fought as hard as he could under the assumptions Demogerg mentioned and couldn't get anywhere whereas Russ was just wraslin. The fact that Jonson punched Russ in the face while Russ was having a chuckle at the whole thing is pretty good evidence that the Lion takes himself very, very, very seriously.
Manchu wrote:I think that the fight took the piss out of the Lion, hence the cheap shot. My interpretation has always been that the Lion fought as hard as he could under the assumptions Demogerg mentioned and couldn't get anywhere whereas Russ was just wraslin. The fact that Jonson punched Russ in the face while Russ was having a chuckle at the whole thing is pretty good evidence that the Lion takes himself very, very, very seriously.
Not really. According to the SW codex it was Russ who attacked the Lion first, enraged that the Lion killed had killed Durath before he got a chance to, as Durath had insulted Russ calling him "The Emperor's Lapdog". A bit of a dick move by the Lion, but you can't say that Russ wasn't serious about it, at least not until the very end when he saw the futility in it. The Lion, having been attacked for no apparent good reason, evidently did not see the humour and ended it. Russ started it, the Lion finished it. The fact that he left Russ alive afterwards suggests that he did not think he was a traitor.
I guess we're just DA and a SW fanboys seeing two sides of the same coin.
Not defending the Roidicidal geneticly enhanced superhumans bred for absolutely nothing but combat (especially not the one bred specificly for combat AGAINST HIS OWN BROTHERS) but the topic is who would win in a fight. Russ clearly wins. The only question is if he Lion's final blow was petty spite or vengence for a preceved slight. Same coin either way, I suppose
Well, Lion was doing his job, and Russ was just having a temper tantrum because someone called him a name. So the final hit could have been as much of a smack with a rolled-up newspaper to get Russ to smarten up as a fight-stopper. In a serious fight, I have to agree, Russ would beat Lion, but that's only providing Lion didn't out-think, out-maneuver, and out-source Russ (all of which I think are more than likely).
Manchu wrote:I think that the fight took the piss out of the Lion, hence the cheap shot. My interpretation has always been that the Lion fought as hard as he could under the assumptions Demogerg mentioned and couldn't get anywhere whereas Russ was just wraslin. The fact that Jonson punched Russ in the face while Russ was having a chuckle at the whole thing is pretty good evidence that the Lion takes himself very, very, very seriously.
Not really. According to the SW codex it was Russ who attacked the Lion first, enraged that the Lion killed had killed Durath before he got a chance to, as Durath had insulted Russ calling him "The Emperor's Lapdog". A bit of a dick move by the Lion, but you can't say that Russ wasn't serious about it, at least not until the very end when he saw the futility in it. The Lion, having been attacked for no apparent good reason, evidently did not see the humour and ended it. Russ started it, the Lion finished it. The fact that he left Russ alive afterwards suggests that he did not think he was a traitor.
I guess we're just DA and a SW fanboys seeing two sides of the same coin.
I agree with this assessment. I'll hasten to add I love all Marine chapters equally. I just think a lot of the time, The Lion is completely disregarded due to a load of gimp dex marines, not the Wolves who use the codex astartes at toilet paper. A lot of people claim that Russ wasn't fighting all out, but he's never been a guy to pull punches, and there appears to be little to no evidence to substantiate this opinion.
sniperjolly wrote:Not defending the Roidicidal geneticly enhanced superhumans bred for absolutely nothing but combat (especially not the one bred specificly for combat AGAINST HIS OWN BROTHERS) but the topic is who would win in a fight. Russ clearly wins. The only question is if he Lion's final blow was petty spite or vengence for a preceved slight. Same coin either way, I suppose
The DA dex implies the latter, but it could equally be the former.
For what it's worth, I reckon the overall winner would be Russ, still. I just think it might not be such a curbstomp battle everybody makes it out to be. The g ap between the primarchs is closer than many think, I beleive.
Except Lorgar. What's he gunna do, hit you with a bible?
WGXH wrote:Except Lorgar. What's he gunna do, hit you with a bible?
Well, no, he's gonna state some really shady religious gak and while you stand and think what the feth he was trying to say, he'll sneak upon you and only then hit you with a surgically-sharpened-edges Bible.
WGXH wrote:
For what it's worth, I reckon the overall winner would be Russ, still. I just think it might not be such a curbstomp battle everybody makes it out to be. The g ap between the primarchs is closer than many think, I beleive.
Agreed here, all of the primarchs are genetically engineered gods of war designed with one real purpose... to kill stuff.
So this is really just a popularity contest, one that pops up every few months or so here on Dakka, and just about every time Russ comes out on top.
Here's my two cents. I don't know much about the primarks because I'm yet to read the HH books. But I think Russ or Horus. Mainly because Russ nearly beat the emperor in hand to hand and when he lost took it with a smile which shows he has self discipline. Also Horus because he's just generally quite awesome at combat but the only reason he beat the emperor is because he was all chaosed up. But then again people only say Sanguinus didn't beat Hours because he didn't want to kill his brother. One thing I think we can agree on is that Rowboat Jellybean wouldn't stand a chance.
spamandchips wrote:One thing I think we can agree on is that Rowboat Jellybean wouldn't stand a chance.
He would, only not for the winner
Not really. He was a good fighter, as everyone primarch was. However, he was not a specialist. He was a strategist who could dictate to his whole Legion more effective than any other, but he was not the powerhouse of Russ or Anngron.
And I'm amused by the Lorgar haters. He was indeed a fighter, and usually took no weapons to a fight. I've seen a few entries about how he fought, though most of it was fan based. However, it does seem his radiant golden skin wasn't just for show. You can't fight blind, after all.
I see the "you have no evidence for this" argument a lot on Dakka with regard to the fluff and it seems like a missing the forest for the trees problem to me. I think the overarching point about the fight between the Wolf and the Lion is that Russ is the type who becomes your bestest brawlin and drinkin buddy after fighting you (given that you're not an actual enemy) whereas Jonson is the type who never forgives you for an affront to his dignity. The implication is that while Russ was certainly fighting, he wasn't fighting like he did against Magnus--otherwise, Jonson would have arguably died right there. Conversely, there's nothing to indicate that Jonson has a "fight allies" mode that is distinct from his "fight enemies" mode, so to speak. The fact that he didn't kill Russ while he was unconscious doesn't strike me as evidence to the contrary. The Lion would have had to be a total idiot to think that Russ was some kind of traitor. Jonson knew this fight wasn't about that. And the most embarassing part of the whole thing for him was when Russ stopped and laughed at the whole situation, which he had been taking very seriously. That's what's so cheap about Jonson's cheap shot.
Oh the irony. Yes, I'd agree, the "you have no evidence for this" argument happens quite a lot here.
I could also suggest that the Lion wasn't fighting seriously or at full strength either. As you said, he knew that Russ wasn't a traitor and that the fight was about honour, so he humoured him for a couple of days to let Russ get all the anger out of himself. The "cheap shot" was more akin to a parent smacking a child after they misbehaved.
You seem to believe that the Lion was some sort of idiot, why is that?
unbeliever87 wrote:
You seem to believe that the Lion was some sort of idiot, why is that?
Horus Heresy Dark Angels books among other things
Agreed. The HHDA books are pure garbage. It's like a 40k-nerd/emo's idea of a wet dream. Sadly, I'm not even exaggerating with the stereotype.
I'm about to finish the first of those, I have yet to find anything that is bad about it. :\ But then again, I hardly ever get why people are bashing certain books... except dawn of war books >_> back flipping terminators my ass...
unbeliever87 wrote:
You seem to believe that the Lion was some sort of idiot, why is that?
Horus Heresy Dark Angels books among other things
Agreed. The HHDA books are pure garbage. It's like a 40k-nerd/emo's idea of a wet dream. Sadly, I'm not even exaggerating with the stereotype.
I'm about to finish the first of those, I have yet to find anything that is bad about it. :\ But then again, I hardly ever get why people are bashing certain books... except dawn of war books >_> back flipping terminators my ass...
To me, the book was boring as heck. The first especially. I didn't care about how Lion was raised, but I wanted to know what he was doing. I don't care how angry and oppressive he was, but I'd have liked to know why he was like that. The movement from his early life to his later, being that he went from seeing Luther as his equal to his lesser, made absolutely no sense at all, simply because it was such a radical change in ideas. But yes, nothing sticks out as wrong until you look how damn stupid some of it is.
unbeliever87 wrote:
You seem to believe that the Lion was some sort of idiot, why is that?
Horus Heresy Dark Angels books among other things
Agreed. The HHDA books are pure garbage. It's like a 40k-nerd/emo's idea of a wet dream. Sadly, I'm not even exaggerating with the stereotype.
I'm about to finish the first of those, I have yet to find anything that is bad about it. :\ But then again, I hardly ever get why people are bashing certain books... except dawn of war books >_> back flipping terminators my ass...
To me, the book was boring as heck. The first especially. I didn't care about how Lion was raised, but I wanted to know what he was doing. I don't care how angry and oppressive he was, but I'd have liked to know why he was like that. The movement from his early life to his later, being that he went from seeing Luther as his equal to his lesser, made absolutely no sense at all, simply because it was such a radical change in ideas. But yes, nothing sticks out as wrong until you look how damn stupid some of it is.
Fair enough, the books are not exactly Heresy material but I guess they do help put the whole thing into context. So, here's a highlight of what the Lion did wrong over the course of two books.
Spoiler:
The Lion pretty much alienates all the Calibanites that didn't make the cut to Astartes by drastically changing the face of the planet (both during the Great Hunts and after the Imperium makes contact) and making them feel used and abandoned.
He pretty much outshines Luther consistently, he fails to see how that might push one towards envy, and when the whole thing erupts, what does he do? He banishes Luther (and half his Legion, for that matter) to a backwater world, further feeding his bitterness. And why? Because Luther though about betraying him. Did he somehow miss the fact that it was Luther that saved him, in the end, despite having a chance to get away with it all?
Then there's the question of why the hell would any sane commander engaged in a large scale crusade suddenly send half his forces to garrison duty half the galaxy away.
And then there's book two. News of the virus bombing at Istvaan is still fresh, and the Imperium is in shock. What does the Lion do? He goes on a cloak-and-dagger mission with a small force, in hopes of making a good enough impression to become the new Warmaster. Of course, his goal was to prevent Horus from claiming the biggest siege guns in the Galaxy, so I guess it's a pretty strategic move. But he goes to war with little more than his honor guard, damn it. While his very numerous, very experienced Legion is split in two, doing absolutely nothing productive, and about as far away from possible from Terra as you could get and still be in this galaxy.
Anyway, mission successful, he finally secures the guns, so what does he do? He hands them over to Perturabo, of all people, in an effort to secure his support when the Lion would become Warmaster. This bit, I particularly liked because it shows that a) the Lion is obsessed with blowing his own horn; b) is probably the worst judge of character ever; c) is dumber than a brick if he thinks he can sweet talk Perturabo - the one primarch who is all but immune to flattery and who still resented not being named Warmaster the first time - into supporting him.
Although the Lion realizes that Terra is Horus' endgame, does he order his Legion to mobilize there in reserve, while he's off playing hero? Nooooo... the Dark Angels are useless as crap for the entire duration of the Heresy.
I could never figure out how a guy with angel wings could make it so long without having someone unleash a flamer on his highly flammable backside. Are his wings fire proof? Is this ever addressed in the books or older fluff?
I've got to ask this but why is Rogal Dorn not being considered?
1v1 in a duel i've got to plump for either Russ who as we all know can fight in 1v1 very well as outlined earlier in this thread. My other chioce has to be Horus, nominatted warmaster, killed Sang (but buoyed up with pure chaos admittedly) and motrally wounded the Emporer.
Corey85 wrote:I could never figure out how a guy with angel wings could make it so long without having someone unleash a flamer on his highly flammable backside. Are his wings fire proof? Is this ever addressed in the books or older fluff?
Simple. No one got close enough to unleash a flamer onto his back without dieing. He's got an incredibly elite bodyguard and he has amazing combat skills. If you could get close enough to hit him, you'd be dead, and itd be impossible to angle it to hit his wings when they are stowed to not be used behind his back.
Corey85 wrote:I could never figure out how a guy with angel wings could make it so long without having someone unleash a flamer on his highly flammable backside. Are his wings fire proof? Is this ever addressed in the books or older fluff?
Simple. No one got close enough to unleash a flamer onto his back without dieing. He's got an incredibly elite bodyguard and he has amazing combat skills. If you could get close enough to hit him, you'd be dead, and itd be impossible to angle it to hit his wings when they are stowed to not be used behind his back.
A real flamethrower has A LOT of range, don't understimate this, also, comparing them to a real flamethrower, they aren't flames that just go out in a few seconds, it's more like "sticky fire" a lot of the fuel isn't ignited by the time it reaches the target (if sufficient pressure is used that is) and it wouldn't just hit the side your firing from, but it would pretty much envelope the general area.
But, he could just fly away anyway.. But I'm guessing he treats them with flame retardent gel (that also gives off that shiny effect! )
Corey85 wrote:I could never figure out how a guy with angel wings could make it so long without having someone unleash a flamer on his highly flammable backside. Are his wings fire proof? Is this ever addressed in the books or older fluff?
Simple. No one got close enough to unleash a flamer onto his back without dieing. He's got an incredibly elite bodyguard and he has amazing combat skills. If you could get close enough to hit him, you'd be dead, and itd be impossible to angle it to hit his wings when they are stowed to not be used behind his back.
A real flamethrower has A LOT of range, don't understimate this, also, comparing them to a real flamethrower, they aren't flames that just go out in a few seconds, it's more like "sticky fire" a lot of the fuel isn't ignited by the time it reaches the target (if sufficient pressure is used that is) and it wouldn't just hit the side your firing from, but it would pretty much envelope the general area.
But, he could just fly away anyway.. But I'm guessing he treats them with flame retardent gel (that also gives off that shiny effect! )
Actually, primarchs practically bathed themselves in oil which was HARDLY flame retardent. But, like I said, ain't nobody getting close enough. I know flamers have a good range, but it simply doesn't matter.
And the modern flamethrower isn't going ten yards. Besides, this is a FLAMER, it is actually quite different and would probably go even further.
yep, technically 91.4, but 90 will get you far enough in life. Honestly, in the US of A, we hardly use yards for anything anymore, except for the noble game of blood bo- I mean American Football.
Angron the bezerker would lose to Russ because he wouldn't fight dirty. He would pop the bezerker rage and charge in swinging and that would be about the level of thought that went into it. So I see him having a big problem with Russ and Konrad in a standup fight.
Sanguinius and Fulgrim both had good technical skill, but that probably wouldn't have helped too much. And I see Corax, Khan and Alpharius as too smart to fight Angron head on. They would have dropped back and lured him into a mine field or into a pre-planned artillery strike.
ANGRON ALL THE WAY. I know primarchs are tuff but surviving a sismic mine that took out the company he was with at the end of the second HH book, then killing every enemy warrior in a split second, I mean, id like to see little sang do that!
Captain Shrike wrote:ANGRON ALL THE WAY. I know primarchs are tuff but surviving a sismic mine that took out the company he was with at the end of the second HH book, then killing every enemy warrior in a split second, I mean, id like to see little sang do that!
So he's able to endure an otherwise killing-blast? So none of the other Primarchs can do that? Besides, Anngron is too insane to take on Russ. Russ knows how to fight. Anngron knows how to slaughter.
Angron was a pit fighter almost his entire life and his surgical implants were designed to enhance that. If he was just some mindless thug with no finesse another gladiator with more finesse with weapons would have gut him a long time ago(as people are suggesting russ would do). Angron also took out many eldar at once as a young man, bare-handed I believe, before ever entering the arena or having implants. He is a force of nature with or without a weapon, with or without daemonic gifts, and underestimating him as a berzerk klutz is just ignorant of his background.
I also want to make it clear that having an intense desire to do nothing but kill =/= swinging a weapon mindlessly as you rush at your opponent. His implants made him fearless and aggressive, not stupid and unable to wield a weapon with precision. He was also shown to be a skilled tactician, someone that cared about the welfare of his men, and revolted against the emperor because the emp forced him to leave his men behind to be slaughtered when the emperor could've landed and saved them all. If the emperor hadn't been so stubborn and shortsighted about it he could've had a loyal killing machine in angron.
I'm going to say again that we will never know the outcome of every fight between xxxx and xxxx. Even fights that we have records of may not have turned out the same way if they had fought a second or a third time. Would russ defeat angron in single combat? Maybe, but he might also lose because he underestimated angron as a mindless brute.
Angron is shown to charge the enemy disregarding nearly any attempt to evade their shots/blows. He just absorbs them and keeps raging. I don't think people in this thread are as off-base as you think, Halsfield. As for deceiving the enemy into thinking you're a mindless brute, that's what Russ does (read A Thousand Sons) not Angron. Read Tales of Heresy and you'll see how Angron does things. I'll say this: you wouldn't like him when he's angry . . . which is always.
^ same here, it could be interesting, though kinda boring visually (it would be the same 20 guys just with differnt colors, basically)
Except he was pumped so full of Chaos juices and magics that he wasn't even a primarch anymore. He was practically a daemon prince. That, and Sanguinus wasn't even fighting full force. He was trying to convince Horus to quit the stupid siege and come back to the side of the Emperor. And he STILL managed to ruin his armor enough for the Emperor to finish the job.
VikingScott wrote:I don't think Huros counts as at the time he wasn't a primarch any more, he was beyond that in terms of power, rivaling the Emprah.
Hmmmm, no. Actually Emprah held back for most of the fight because he didn't want to bruise his sweet beloved little baby. He only grounded Horus in the end when he realised how much of a bully he had become (entry of the Custodes)
VikingScott wrote:I don't think Huros counts as at the time he wasn't a primarch any more, he was beyond that in terms of power, rivaling the Emprah.
Hmmmm, no. Actually Emprah held back for most of the fight because he didn't want to bruise his sweet beloved little baby. He only grounded Horus in the end when he realised how much of a bully he had become (entry of the Custodes)
THAT is wrong actually. When the Emperor saw how Horus had brutally murdered Sanguinus, who was Horus's closest brother, he threw himself into the fight. That was a true battle, and the Emperor would have lost, believe it or not. If not for the sacrificial lamb that was Sangy, things woulda turned out differently.
Hm, you may be right. I could've sworn i read somewhere something like "the Emperor held back for most of the fight and could only bring himself to kill his most beloved son when he realized how far he had gone, when a lone Custodes entered the room, flayed by Horus in an instant " something like that. Can't find the text right now, sorry for the wrong correction
EDIT : finally found the text on Lexicanum
Lexicanum wrote: The Emperor held back for much of the battle, remembering Horus as his beloved son and not wishing to believe that he had turned so utterly to Chaos. This allowed Horus to inflict crippling mortal wounds on the Emperor, since nothing short of the Emperor's full power would be sufficient to defeat him. At the critical point in the battle, a lone Adeptus Custode guard entered the room. Horus flayed him alive with but a look and in that instant the Emperor realized how far his favored son had fallen.
aka_tizz wrote:Hm, you may be right. I could've sworn i read somewhere something like "the Emperor held back for most of the fight and could only bring himself to kill his most beloved son when he realized how far he had gone, when a lone Custodes entered the room, flayed by Horus in an instant " something like that. Can't find the text right now, sorry for the wrong correction
EDIT : finally found the text on Lexicanum
Lexicanum wrote:
The Emperor held back for much of the battle, remembering Horus as his beloved son and not wishing to believe that he had turned so utterly to Chaos. This allowed Horus to inflict crippling mortal wounds on the Emperor, since nothing short of the Emperor's full power would be sufficient to defeat him. At the critical point in the battle, a lone Adeptus Custode guard entered the room. Horus flayed him alive with but a look and in that instant the Emperor realized how far his favored son had fallen.
Lexicanum is a wiki page. Anyone can write anything on there. My comment was more based on what I personally remember from the fluff, but I also could be wrong. Simply saying, that sounds more like speculation than fact to me. :/
Rutteger1 wrote:Sanguinius was nasty- I'd say without Horus' demonic strength, I think Sanguinius woulda whipped him.
While this is probably true, Sangy is by no means the best of the best. He had skill and flourish, but Russ and Anngron both had fury and strength, on top of skill for Russ, behind them.
Rutteger1 wrote:Sanguinius was nasty- I'd say without Horus' demonic strength, I think Sanguinius woulda whipped him.
While this is probably true, Sangy is by no means the best of the best. He had skill and flourish, but Russ and Anngron both had fury and strength, on top of skill for Russ, behind them.
Lexicanum wrote:
The Emperor held back for much of the battle, remembering Horus as his beloved son and not wishing to believe that he had turned so utterly to Chaos. This allowed Horus to inflict crippling mortal wounds on the Emperor, since nothing short of the Emperor's full power would be sufficient to defeat him. At the critical point in the battle, OLLANIUS MUTHA****IN' PIUS entered the room. Horus flayed him alive with but a look and in that instant the Emperor realized how far his favored son had fallen.
Rutteger1 wrote:Sanguinius was nasty- I'd say without Horus' demonic strength, I think Sanguinius woulda whipped him.
While this is probably true, Sangy is by no means the best of the best. He had skill and flourish, but Russ and Anngron both had fury and strength, on top of skill for Russ, behind them.
Yeah? Well Sanguinius could FLY!
Flight doesn't mean he had an advantage. One wing sliced and he's already screwed. Plus, all it would do is give his opponent time to rest while he flew up and kept exerting energy to keep his POWER ARMORED body in flight.
I can see Russ vs Angron being very interesting
Fight!!
Russ: Angron get back here!
meanwhile angron gets distracted by whole hive city and runs off to slaughter in the name of the blood god
), he would be very good, no doubt, but I suspect others were better.
Im as pleased as this man to bear your mark honored lord.
