25141
Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
In a recent thread about the role of women in 40K, the point was made that women are not allowed/cannot be Space Marines. The question raised by myself and another newbie has so far been unanswered.
Would be grateful for some input as to why SM's are exclusively male please
Thanks in advance.
20700
Post by: IvanTih
Because the Emperor and his scientists created geneseed only for males what's the point in having a female space marine,males are stronger,have hardier constitution and other things.
25141
Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Ok thanks
what is the geneseed
how does this only work for males
is it a chromosone thing or what
Please can we keep the misogyny confined to the realms of 40K - thanks
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Post by: The Dreadnote
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote: Would be grateful for some input as to why SM's are exclusively male please
Because girls are icky, and thus would not sell.
18653
Post by: brainscan
sisters of battle are the closest thing to female SM. but lacking the genetic benefits and the better gear!
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Due to fluff.
There is no reason why female bodies could not undergo the transplantation of geneseeds. Rejection by the immune system is caused by different surface antigens on cells, not their genes.
Male and Female bodies respond to the same hormone treatments -- that is how transexual physical swaps work (along with surgery.)
17624
Post by: ultramarinelord
The extreme amounts of steroids they feed the SMs would almost completely diminish any feminine features anyway.
9711
Post by: Morgrim
It's never been explained in terms of science, but neither have bolters, chainswords, promethium or power swords. The fluff stated reason is that the geneseed is incompatible with many people (fluff refers to many applicants getting rejected at the first screening process) and apparently this group includes all females. Maybe geneseed initially interacts with a sequence on the Y chromosome to kick start the genetic modifications.
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Post by: Manchu
There are plenty of femarines.
21170
Post by: Klawz
I thought the SMs had no gender....
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
But there are more Mamarines.
12265
Post by: Gwar!
Agreed.
It's funny because Ass is another word for Donkey! 
25141
Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Firstly thanks for the replies chaps and the linkies are much appreciated Ivan!
from the latter:
(SM'S) must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types.
okay so the fluffy stuff says that they must be male. But what I now don't understand is how a zygote is deemed male?
The zygote is the initial cell after fertilisation, which lasts about four days before becoming a blastocyst
Determination of gender takes place much later- hence us boys have nipples
so is the fluff flawed or please explain what I missed 
7899
Post by: The Dreadnote
No, it's just flawed. Looking for strict adherence to facts in a GW product is often a futile endeavour.
16387
Post by: Manchu
Gwar! wrote:It's funny because Ass is another word for Donkey!
It's even funnier because you wouldn't be using the word ass figuratively in her case.  (Not to be arrogant, but the idea orkmoticon has never ever been used more suitably than in this post.)
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Post by: SagesStone
If females were given the Gene Seed they would probably end up like this.
16387
Post by: Manchu
@KK: From now on all femarine threads should be about that gurl. Have anymore pics?
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
Manchu wrote:@KK: From now on all femarine threads should be about that gurl. Have anymore pics?
I'm not into lady bodybuilders. Automatically Appended Next Post: Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
Firstly thanks for the replies chaps and the linkies are much appreciated Ivan!
from the latter:
(SM'S) must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types.
okay so the fluffy stuff says that they must be male. But what I now don't understand is how a zygote is deemed male?
The zygote is the initial cell after fertilisation, which lasts about four days before becoming a blastocyst
Determination of gender takes place much later- hence us boys have nipples
so is the fluff flawed or please explain what I missed
Okay, going back to the science, basically it is crap to say that there are male zygotes or tissue types.
Sexual differentiation in humans happens at a later stage of development and can be partially reversed. For example, men given female hormones can develop breasts and lactate. Women given male hormones develop exaggerated bone and muscle structure.
There is no scientific basis for saying there could not be female marines. It is a bit of fluff made up by GW to justify there being no female marines. (But remember the two missing primarchs!)
Why the fluff? My assumption is that GW's target market is young teen/tween boys who still think girls are soppy.
On another tack, like other people noted, the immense amount of changes caused by the hormone therapy, brain washing and surgical alterations, makes ideas about SMs being men or women essentially meaningless. They are Space Marines, not men or women.
22906
Post by: riplikash
First on the scientific thing:
Modern scientific understanding of biology is next to useless in analyzing 40k tech. Yes, this is partially because the writers are NOT scientists and don't have any kind of background in biology/physics/etc. But another reason is because the knowledge required to engineer a space marine is thousands of years beyond our current understanding. No we don't know a reason that female space marines would be impossible, but apparently with 30k years on us felt they were. We are like children building sand castles trying to tell structural engineers why skyscrapers are impossible. If the gene seed isn't compatible with females, it isn't. 21st century biology is not a great foundation for understanding why.
Then there is the other very possible scenario. GWs official stance on fluff is actually fairly realistic. It is presented not as omniscient, like in starwars or star trek, but as peoples opinions and propaganda. It is people telling stories, and just because they believe it and remember it that way does not make it true. It may very well be imperial policy, or a widely held belief that women cant be space marines. Some chapters may even believe that. That doesn't make it so.
As has been mentioned, the main difference between men and women is hormones. Men can develop curves and breasts, women can develop broad shoulders, strong bras, and beards. The SM go through such drastic hormone treatments all recruits would look basically the same. Masculine features, little breast tissue, broad shoulders, etc.
The only way to tell the difference would be a genetailia check (or a gene check). And since their suits and the black carapace handle all waste recycling, most likely no one will ever see that part of the body.
You could have two space marines in loincloths of different genders standing next to eachother, and you would not be able to tell if one was female until you pulled off the loin cloth. And then, what was seen, could not be unseen.
17923
Post by: Asherian Command
Check white dwarf 300!
All answers will be answered there.
25141
Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
If the gene seed isn't compatible with females, it isn't.
If the Fluff stated a broad reason then I would go along with what you say.
But they specifically say that it is due to selection of a Male Zygote- which is nonsensical- whatever happens in the 40th millenium
You have to say that the zygote will be gender specific in the far future, when it has not been for a much longer period in the past.
so essentially the fluff is erroneous
but any female SM's are so beefed up they would look like their male collegues
a bit like the East German Olympic Squad then 
491
Post by: Elusive71
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
Firstly thanks for the replies chaps and the linkies are much appreciated Ivan!
from the latter:
(SM'S) must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types.
okay so the fluffy stuff says that they must be male. But what I now don't understand is how a zygote is deemed male?
The zygote is the initial cell after fertilisation, which lasts about four days before becoming a blastocyst
Determination of gender takes place much later- hence us boys have nipples
so is the fluff flawed or please explain what I missed
The fluff is referring to the zygotes of the implanted organs which are "keyed" (whatever that means) to male hormones and tissue types, and are intended to be implanted in a developing male body. Since "zygote" is a product of sexual reproduction, the more generic "embryo" probably would be more appropriate. Keep in mind that Rick Priestley is a game developer and not a biologist.  The assumption is that there is something about these embyonic organs that requires them to develop in a male body as they have ever since the Emperor created his first Space Marine.
Organ cloning uses adult stem cells from specific organs to cultivate specific tissue types. Essentially the role of the Progenoid glands is to produce a gene-seed which contains the germ cells (adult stem cells) required to produce each implant. DNA can be extracted from the germ cells contained in the gene-seed and implanted in a host cell which will then develop into an embyonic organ.
This is assuming the genetic engineering of the 41st millenium is anything like that of today of course.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:IvanTih wrote:Because the Emperor and his scientists created geneseed only for males what's the point in having a female space marine,males are stronger,have hardier constitution and other things.
Ok thanks
what is the geneseed
how does this only work for males
is it a chromosone thing or what
Please can we keep the misogyny confined to the realms of 40K - thanks
I doubt Ivan's comment was meant to be misogynistic, but a reference to the secondary sex characteristics in mature male humans such as:
Increased stature; adult males are taller than adult females, on average
Heavier skull and bone structure
Enlargement of larynx and deepening of voice
Increased muscle mass and strength
Broader shoulders and chest
Coarser, more rigid skin texture, due to less subcutaneous fat
All of these physical traits would be assets when we're talking about the production of Imperial terror troops.
Aside from the intimidation factor, many of these characteristics make pubescent males better candidates for the implants. Broadening of shoulders and chest affords more room for the larger implants such as the Secondary Heart, Multi-Lung, and Preomnor. Development of heavier skull and bone structure would be further enhanced by the Ossmodula. Devlopment of increased muscle mass and strength would be furthered by the Biscopea. Less (or non-existant) subcutaneous fat would benefit the Black Carapace process. Even the secondary male sex characteristic of increased secretions of oil and sweat glands would assist in the function of the Mucranoid.
Keep in mind too, that Space Marines are genetic decendants of the Emperor. Using his own DNA he created 20 Primarchs, and from their DNA, he created 20 Space Marine legions. After the Heresy, the Loyalist legions were divided into chapters, which through the millenia begat successor chapters. I'd assume that since the Emperor created his Primarchs as male, he probably had a good reason to insist that their demi-clones be male too.
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Post by: Gwar!
Don't forget, Zygote might mean something completely different then than now 
491
Post by: Elusive71
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:But they specifically say that it is due to selection of a Male Zygote- which is nonsensical- whatever happens in the 40th millenium
You have to say that the zygote will be gender specific in the far future, when it has not been for a much longer period in the past.
so essentially the fluff is erroneous
Where does it say that? If you're talking about the part that says "Recruits must be fairly young, because implants often do not become fully functional if the recipient has reached a certain level of physical maturity. They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types.", it's saying the recruits must be male, not the zygotes.
BTW, the conversation got ahead of me while I was typing my previous response. Check it out - it might answer some questions.
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Post by: 1hadhq
Manchu wrote:There are plenty of femarines.
wrong color scheme. Should be grey. 
Killkrazy wrote:
On another tack, like other people noted, the immense amount of changes caused by the hormone therapy, brain washing and surgical alterations, makes ideas about SMs being men or women essentially meaningless. They are Space Marines, not men or women.
25141
Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
I assumed Ivan was referring to the gameworld viewpoint but it highlighted a possible distraction which would be better nipped in the bud.
Secondly, has Rick Priestley never heard of research? Honestly, you just can't get the staff these days
The fluff is referring to the zygotes of the implanted organs which are "keyed" (whatever that means) to male hormones and tissue types, and are intended to be implanted in a developing male body. Since "zygote" is a product of sexual reproduction, the more generic "embryo" probably would be more appropriate.
I think if it were being written now, stem cell culture would be written into the marinification process. It was the reference to zygotes that bamboozled me.
Thanks for the clarification, Elusive.
If nothing else it has given a little refresher to an aspect of 'O' level biology (GSCE to you young whippersnappers)
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Post by: Kilkrazy
riplikash wrote:First on the scientific thing:
Modern scientific understanding of biology is next to useless in analyzing 40k tech. Yes, this is partially because the writers are NOT scientists and don't have any kind of background in biology/physics/etc. But another reason is because the knowledge required to engineer a space marine is thousands of years beyond our current understanding.
...
.
No, it isn't.
We have a good though imperfect knowledge of how genetics and tissue development work using hormones and so on.
There is absolutely nothing in modern science to suggest that women's bodies are in any serious respect different to men's and would not be able to take surgical and hormonal modifications.
For example, we know that tissue rejection takes place because of cell surface antigens. We do not yet know how to modify cell surface antigens, but once we do, we will be able to transplant any tissues without using the rejection suppression drugs which are needed at the moment.
To say "Their science is beyond our understanding" is as much a copout as Handwavium.
18653
Post by: brainscan
or look like. 
99
Post by: insaniak
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Secondly, has Rick Priestley never heard of research? Honestly, you just can't get the staff these days
He was a hippy RPGer writing some background material for a beer & pretzels science fantasy game in the early 80's... so no, I rather doubt research was something that was seriously considered...
22906
Post by: riplikash
Kilkrazy wrote:riplikash wrote:First on the scientific thing:
Modern scientific understanding of biology is next to useless in analyzing 40k tech. Yes, this is partially because the writers are NOT scientists and don't have any kind of background in biology/physics/etc. But another reason is because the knowledge required to engineer a space marine is thousands of years beyond our current understanding.
...
.
No, it isn't.
We have a good though imperfect knowledge of how genetics and tissue development work using hormones and so on.
There is absolutely nothing in modern science to suggest that women's bodies are in any serious respect different to men's and would not be able to take surgical and hormonal modifications.
For example, we know that tissue rejection takes place because of cell surface antigens. We do not yet know how to modify cell surface antigens, but once we do, we will be able to transplant any tissues without using the rejection suppression drugs which are needed at the moment.
To say "Their science is beyond our understanding" is as much a copout as Handwavium.
I just disagree. I'm an engineer, not a biologist, so I readily admit my area of expertise is not biology. I agreed with a lot of what you have said later in my post. Yes, as far as we know most differences between the sexes are hormonal in nature, and it is very possible there ARE female marines, they just look exactly like the male ones.
And yes, we do have a good but imperfect knowledge of genetics and tissue development.
But it is still an imperfect knowledge, and there are depths of theory we have not yet plumbed. Again, I'm an engineer, not a biologist. But in my lifetime I have seen advances in theory that change the very nature of how we think the universe works, and I would imagine most people with scientific degrees would admit that while we have a good working knowledge of how the universe acts in some respects, we have a poor understanding of how and why it actually works. I know at least in physics the more you understand, the more you know you don't understand, and I'm sure the same is true in biology. The entire biological model the present to us up to high level undergraduate courses is understood to be incorrect, it is just a convenient way to illustrate the principles at work.
No, I don't think GW explains things in a way that makes scientific sense, but from a fluff perspective it is mostly propaganda and handwaving anyways. The ad mech keep the the actual workings of technology secret.
And I would still contend that in 38k years when the God-Emperor of mankind developed the geneseed he would have access to theories and technologies that don't fit with our understanding of the universe. We've turned our own theories on their heads numerous times in the last 50 years alone. A lot of our theories involve a great deal of handwaving. From esoteric things like the behavior of quantum particles to simple things we observe every day like gravity, we often have to just hand wave it away. It works, we don't understand why. The foundation of the scientific model is comprised of five assumptions (well, 3-6 depending on who is writing the book) that we have absolutely no way of verifying. We don't KNOW if they are true, but we hope they are. We build all other proofs on top of these assumptions, but have no way of proving them true.
The entire explanation of how the geenseed works is likely extremely dumbed down. It is most likely much more complex than what is presented, but what is presented is the official position on how it works.
There is nothing wrong with saying that 38k in the future during the creation of the space marines the emperor had some scientific reason that the process didn't work on females, even if we don't have a reason for that today. Its pure hubris to suppose that no, theories from 200 years ago are not very correct, and NO they didn't 100 years ago aren't very correct, nor from 50 years ago, or 25 years ago. But today's theories will be just as valid 38k years into the future as they are now.
We have a decent working understanding of how things work, but when you really get down to our theoretical understanding of how and why, we are on very shaky ground. Which is ok. It is what makes science so fun.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Is now a good time to sharpen Occum's Razor?
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Post by: Morgrim
If the process has anything, anything at all to do with the Y chromosome, only males can become space marines. I've always thought that was a nice simple reason that could easily fit in fluff and not require the writers to know more than basic science. Or sex ed, if you lot have a similar class to ours.
25800
Post by: Deff Rider Warboss
I think I mentioned in another thread that all the women were locked away by the god emperor and will not be released until the SM kill all the heretics and Aliens.
25798
Post by: Asgeirr Darkwolf
wrong color scheme. Should be grey.
Ha. Ha. Ha. I think dark green suits the femarine much better, as does the pretty white sword. And the gothness . You wanna go, punk?  (just joking! I hate to say this as a SW player, but angels are pretty neat, and were my second chioce)
Also, weren't All codex SM's castrated? to prevent.... Breeding, and therefore possible genetic deviancy and emotional weakness? Stupid imperium, wouldn't it actually make offspring nearly as strong as their parents? and possibly have a gene seed?
6838
Post by: 1hadhq
Asgeirr Darkwolf wrote:
Also, weren't All codex SM's castrated? to prevent.... Breeding, and therefore possible genetic deviancy and emotional weakness? Stupid imperium, wouldn't it actually make offspring nearly as strong as their parents? and possibly have a gene seed?
A point rarely brought up. 
The Emperor did prevent the separation of space marines into their own "race" with a single stroke:
-no girls = no breeding
I would bet on it, there is a real obvious intend in space marines as pure warrior creatures.
The inability to breed their own recruts binds them to humanity. Even the traitors cannot draw recruts from thin air.
Space marines as 'enhanced' humans have to give up something to become space marines.
Still, the basic raw material are humans.
Therefore, the space marines need humans to recrut aspirants to 'upgrade' to space marines.
Would space marines be able to breed, those creatures would be also altered to fit the process and lead to a 'new' race of 'abhumans'. Freed from any bounds to normal humans, this could become a uncontrollable force of its own,
without an Emperor or primarch to keep them in check, overconfidence and self aggrandization may overcome the rationale
and all you get is a bunch of wild beasts instead of dutyful warriors.
So women are not neccessary as source for space marines and would not stay female in the process.
All you achieve is weakening the "output" of normal humans as you need less males than females to breed.
Loosing the benefits of the massive numbers the imeprium has, just to gain the option to call this creature in fully enclosed battle-plate a girl? Really?
As pointed out, there is no reason for the original inventers of the astartes to use both genders and additionally the existant background did not support/hint or suggest women as source for space marines.
If girls in 28mm are so important, I am still waiting for a female IG blog in P&M.
25141
Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Brain washed steroid poppin girl rejectin castralto screamin genetically pimped up inbred clonin Emprah worshipin Space Marines
18499
Post by: Henners91
Quit BAWWWW'ing, you femtards.
22906
Post by: riplikash
1hadhq wrote:
A point rarely brought up.
The Emperor did prevent the separation of space marines into their own "race" with a single stroke:
-no girls = no breeding
I would bet on it, there is a real obvious intend in space marines as pure warrior creatures.
The inability to breed their own recruts binds them to humanity. Even the traitors cannot draw recruts from thin air.
Space marines as 'enhanced' humans have to give up something to become space marines.
Still, the basic raw material are humans.
Therefore, the space marines need humans to recrut aspirants to 'upgrade' to space marines.
Would space marines be able to breed, those creatures would be also altered to fit the process and lead to a 'new' race of 'abhumans'. Freed from any bounds to normal humans, this could become a uncontrollable force of its own,
without an Emperor or primarch to keep them in check, overconfidence and self aggrandization may overcome the rationale
and all you get is a bunch of wild beasts instead of dutyful warriors.
So women are not neccessary as source for space marines and would not stay female in the process.
All you achieve is weakening the "output" of normal humans as you need less males than females to breed.
Loosing the benefits of the massive numbers the imeprium has, just to gain the option to call this creature in fully enclosed battle-plate a girl? Really?
As pointed out, there is no reason for the original inventers of the astartes to use both genders and additionally the existant background did not support/hint or suggest women as source for space marines.
If girls in 28mm are so important, I am still waiting for a female IG blog in P&M.
I actually think this is my favorite explanation yet. It isn't that there a biological reason that the emperor couldn't have made female space marines, he just specifically designed the geneseed that way. It is designed so that a Y chromizone is necessary to activate the gene seed, the preventing space marines from ever splitting off from humanity. They have to defend humanity or die out. Their recruits all have human parents and a human upbringing, forever keeping the space marines bound to humanity.
As for the castration thing brought up...I've read a lot of fluff and never heard that one before. It that was official I think it would have ended a lot of "can space marines have children" debates a lot sooner. There might be certain chapters, but not the astartes as a whole.
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Post by: insaniak
riplikash wrote:As for the castration thing brought up...I've read a lot of fluff and never heard that one before. It that was official I think it would have ended a lot of "can space marines have children" debates a lot sooner. There might be certain chapters, but not the astartes as a whole.
The only place I can recall anything like that being mentioned is in either then Inquisition War trilogy or the old Space Marine novel (both by Ian Watson, and the latter no longer being considered canon). Captain Lex at some point mentions that Space Marines aren't capable of sexual reproduction, although I don't recall him stating whether it's due to castration or sterilisation as a part of the upgrade process.
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Post by: Manchu
Asgeirr Darkwolf wrote:
wrong color scheme. Should be grey.
Ha. Ha. Ha. I think dark green suits the femarine much better, as does the pretty white sword
Don't forget the pretty white dresses.
9777
Post by: A-P
The Feth? Reality check. Really, really bad case of Deja Vu here. I spent most of the past week on the FFG forums ( Deathwatch! Deathwatch! ). This exact same ridiculous topic was beaten to death there. Now I get back to Dakka and what do I find among the first page topics?
I need more coffee...
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Post by: Alpharius
It is rather depressing how this does show up around once a month or so.
I mean really, are "we" all THAT desperate for... something in our toy soldiers and/or RPGs?
I mean, this in the Internet guys, if you want to see it, it is out there for you!
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Post by: I grappled the shoggoth
Who cares. The only people who want female marines are ronery basement dwellers
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Post by: tigonesskay
GW is not really scientfic when it comes to human biology. And besides they can't make a half decent female model anyway...
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Post by: Fl@nked
Luckily this is one thing I can shoo under the "I'm sure it makes sense somehow table" I can NOT however, get around the fact that flamers fire SELF-IGNITING PROMETHEUM that requires the little secondary fire nozzle coming out of the flamer to light it?
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Post by: alexwars1
Damn you flonked, that was MY topic! Find your own!
25141
Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
I grappled the shoggoth wrote:Who cares. The only people who want female marines are ronery basement dwellers
Whatever a ronery basement is I don't live in one.
some of the above posts are getting a tad close to the knuckle.
I have reasons for wanting female space wolves and am wanting some background to test the water is all!
If you don't like the topic fair do's, but as a newbie this is a question I felt it is legitimate to raise.
I haven't had chance yet to study all the bum fluff
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Post by: Manchu
Legoburner has lovingly provided us with a search function. If you employ it to search for threads on femarines you will find a wealth of useless argument already existent that covers everything we have gone through in this thread plus all of the things we've yet to cover.
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Post by: Shas'O Dorian
Because the emprah said so. . .
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
It also has alot to do with the process of selecting recruits.
99% of all space marines are recruited from feral or primitative worlds. in a society like that Males are generally dominant and therefore the warriors and therefore the strongest. also Females are more desriable for bearing children then being given to the "Warriors from the stars"
Another is the physical differences. Female bodies (as a generality ) are less densly muscled (again there are exceptions, but these don't occur naturally very often) and have a different layout of muscles then a male body.
men have thicker upper body muscling potential except in the case of mutation which can partially explain no female SMs.
The pelvic structure of a male human is more conductive to running then females as they have a slightly different joint structure to allow for expansion during labor and birth.
All of these can be changed with genetic modification, but it is easier to modify somthing that needs it less. resulting in males being more sutible for the geno theripy
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Post by: Kanluwen
A-P wrote: The Feth? Reality check. Really, really bad case of Deja Vu here. I spent most of the past week on the FFG forums ( Deathwatch! Deathwatch! ). This exact same ridiculous topic was beaten to death there. Now I get back to Dakka and what do I find among the first page topics?
I need more coffee...
It's still going on at the Deathwatch forums too. It's slowed.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Grey Templar wrote:It also has alot to do with the process of selecting recruits.
99% of all space marines are recruited from feral or primitative worlds. in a society like that Males are generally dominant and therefore the warriors and therefore the strongest. also Females are more desriable for bearing children then being given to the "Warriors from the stars"
Another is the physical differences. Female bodies (as a generality ) are less densly muscled (again there are exceptions, but these don't occur naturally very often) and have a different layout of muscles then a male body.
men have thicker upper body muscling potential except in the case of mutation which can partially explain no female SMs.
The pelvic structure of a male human is more conductive to running then females as they have a slightly different joint structure to allow for expansion during labor and birth.
All of these can be changed with genetic modification, but it is easier to modify somthing that needs it less. resulting in males being more sutible for the geno theripy
Not really.
SMs enter training before puberty. There is no major difference between the male and female juvenile bodies at that age in terms of bone and muscle.
It is just as easy to modify female as male bodies using genetic modification. In fact, the way nature gets male bodies is by genetic modification of the female body. In humans, all embryos are female until the Y chromosome activates and makes them male.
The reason why there are no female space marines is because the fluff says so.
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Post by: Gwar!
puma713 wrote:
And in all honesty, I actually really like the whole "so they can't split off from humanity" deal. It makes Logical sense (which is rare in 40k tbh) and seems reasonable as well (another rarity).
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Post by: Kilkrazy
The split off from Humanity idea only works if the modifications to become a Space Marine are hereditary, which they aren't. The geneseeds have to be harvested and grown in vats, etc, blah blah blah.
It's nothing to do with there being women Space Marines or not.
As I pointed out earlier in the thread, there aren't women and men Space Marines as such. They are just Space Marines.
25141
Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Kanluwen wrote:A-P wrote: The Feth? Reality check. Really, really bad case of Deja Vu here. I spent most of the past week on the FFG forums ( Deathwatch! Deathwatch! ). This exact same ridiculous topic was beaten to death there. Now I get back to Dakka and what do I find among the first page topics?
I need more coffee...
It's still going on at the Deathwatch forums too. It's slowed.
Sorry that I seem to have offended your vastly superior intelligence.
of course being so intelligent seems to have precluded you suggesting that the topic had already been discussed at the top of the thread.
you still fail to do so but prefer to whinge. 
I am sorry that I failed to do a search first, as Manchu suggested I ought to have. He is entirely correct.
If it would make you guys happier then I am more than willing to ask a mod to knock this one on the head.
would be very obliged for a linky or two first.
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Post by: Frazzled
Na. Its the law. There has to either be an Ork deathrolla thread or a 'whats up with female marines' thread at all times.
Just be polite people.
Frazzled opinion:
Its a game of toy soldiers. The fluff is stated as no women but so what. Its your fluff. After all at 28mm you can't tell the difference anyway.
1. A new experiment by INSERT SNEAKINESS HERE
2. Always been in existence, everything you've been told is a lie. Lie easy to keep as, er how do you tell?
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Post by: LEEQAEX
Well I am a girl and I used to collect marines , I now have chaos marines . It just wouldnt feel right female marines, battle sisters are cool though. Hopefully the new Inqusition will see a new host of cool female fighters.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Kanluwen wrote:A-P wrote: The Feth? Reality check. Really, really bad case of Deja Vu here. I spent most of the past week on the FFG forums ( Deathwatch! Deathwatch! ). This exact same ridiculous topic was beaten to death there. Now I get back to Dakka and what do I find among the first page topics?
I need more coffee...
It's still going on at the Deathwatch forums too. It's slowed.
Sorry that I seem to have offended your vastly superior intelligence.
of course being so intelligent seems to have precluded you suggesting that the topic had already been discussed at the top of the thread.
you still fail to do so but prefer to whinge.
I am sorry that I failed to do a search first, as Manchu suggested I ought to have. He is entirely correct.
If it would make you guys happier then I am more than willing to ask a mod to knock this one on the head.
would be very obliged for a linky or two first.
I'm pretty sure there was no whine there, other than annoyance at the fact that the female Astartes thread is still going on in the Deathwatch forums over at FFG. Not just that, but it spawned a successor thread.
There's really nothing to discuss either way. Women can't be Space Marines, because that's Imperial Law. Just like the Cult of the Emperor can't field "men at arms", but instead have the Sisters of Battle.
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Post by: micahaphone
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
it has at least been of some value in getting a feel for the varous opinions over this issue
As to FFG I don't know that site or it's discussions so that is nowt to do with me or this thread.
You shoulda read the small print:
Dakka accepts no responsibility, and cannot be held liable for, the contents on other sites. All parties are purely ficticious and any resemblence to Space Marines' grandmothers existing or deceased is purely coincidental. The Emprah wholly rejects any claims that he has squigs for buttocks.
Thanks for the linky btw
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Post by: mcfly
As for me, I think that its because of the whole breeding issue. Women are needed to make baby imperial guardsman, not to fight in wars. Also, Space Marines are monks, Sisters of Battle are nuns. You do not mix the two.
But if you were to make a small force of female space marines, they would have to be painted blood red.
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Post by: insaniak
mcfly wrote:As for me, I think that its because of the whole breeding issue. Women are needed to make baby imperial guardsman, not to fight in wars.
In an Imperium of a million worlds, that's not really an issue.
Besides which, it's not actually what the fluff says. As was mentioned earlier, the fluff for Cadia specifically says that all citizens serve for a time in the Guard. And that's a world right on the front lines.
So if Cadia can get all able-bodied women to serve and still wind up with enough babies for the next generation of Guardsmen, planets a little more away from the action would have no problems. Particularly on Hive worlds where the overall population is so many orders of magnitude greater than the number of recruits that would be taken for Guard regiments.
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Post by: ultramarinelord
insaniak wrote:mcfly wrote:As for me, I think that its because of the whole breeding issue. Women are needed to make baby imperial guardsman, not to fight in wars.
In an Imperium of a million worlds, that's not really an issue.
Besides which, it's not actually what the fluff says. As was mentioned earlier, the fluff for Cadia specifically says that all citizens serve for a time in the Guard. And that's a world right on the front lines.
So if Cadia can get all able-bodied women to serve and still wind up with enough babies for the next generation of Guardsmen, planets a little more away from the action would have no problems. Particularly on Hive worlds where the overall population is so many orders of magnitude greater than the number of recruits that would be taken for Guard regiments.
You are exactly right, insaniak. I was just thinking of posting the exact same thing, straight out of the IG codex, although that does deviate slightly from the topic of female marines.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Not to mention that on average each planet in the Imperium only needs to contribute one person every 10 years or so to become an SM.
It wouldn't make much of a dent in overall reproductive potential.
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Post by: ultramarinelord
One person every 10 years???? Jesus, those Captains need to get their act together...
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Post by: Grey Templar
thats how many make it through the training process, not how many are selected to train.
for every space marine that completes training probably 15 initiates die.
also initiates are selected in groups so that a group of 50 will yield about 3-4 space marines.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Here is my back of an envelope calculation.
1 million space marines.
1 million planets.
1 space marine per planet. (I know it isn't like that but you can change that factor later.)
Average life expectancy of a space marine is 200.
Therefore 5,000 new space marines need to be produced each year.
Only 1 in 20 of space marine candidates survive the training and are inducted.
Therefore 100,000 candidates are needed each year.
100,000/1,000,000 = 0.1
Each planet only needs provide 1 candidate every 10 years.
You can change those factors as you like. Suppose you assume each chapter recruits from only one planet.
100,000 (candidates per year)/1000 = 100.
100 candidates per year would hardly be missed from any planet. You could probably take 1,000 without it being noticed.
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Post by: Nurglitch
Conversely, why can't men have babies?
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Post by: Grey Templar
True calculation Killkrazy
as always some chapters(like mine, Black Templars, Space wolves) are exceptions.
but my point was that it is probably not worth the extra effort that a female aspirant would require to build up the bodily structure. even with only 100 aspirants per year.
IF Geneseed requires the Y cromosome to operate, and i have heard from other sources that it does, it would be impossable for females to accept it succesfully.
Except in the case of mutation and we all know impierial policy on such matters
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
why can't men have babies?
because it would hurt lots if sprog dropped from the pee pee hole
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Post by: Nurglitch
Because, you know, child-birth is a pain-less process.
Interestingly female hyenas have exactly that problem...
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Nurglitch wrote:Conversely, why can't men have babies?
In the future we probably will be able to. Obviously at the moment we only have half of the required tooling.
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Post by: Breotan
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Would be grateful for some input as to why SM's are exclusively male please.
Because genetically altered super warrior beings do not have va-jay-jays.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Because, you know, child-birth is a pain-less process.
Interestingly female hyenas have exactly that problem...
Absolutley- don't know what all the fuss is about!
winces and crosses legs
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Post by: Henners91
Ultimately who cares about whether there are males or females... I mean, realistically they'd wear the same armour anyway...
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Post by: cadbren
Who cares what female body builders can look like, there are no female weightlifters that can compare to men and that's what counts.
Body builders can make themselves "look" big and strong, weightlifters/powerlifters, actually are strong.
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Post by: Lorgar's_Blessed
Wait, there aren't women space marines? And here I'd always thought Blood Angels and Emperor's Children had to be... Only way those two chapter/legion could be so feminine...
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Post by: Soladrin
Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:Wait, there aren't women space marines? And here I'd always thought Blood Angels and Emperor's Children had to be... Only way those two chapter/legion could be so feminine...
I feel your pain brother... they watched to much Will & Grace...
That or their parents listened to Jazz XD (for the Scrubs fans)
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Post by: incarna
From a biological perspective there could certainly be female space marines but, after enduring the bone and muscle growth as well as everything else a space marine endures, she would be completely indistinguishable from a male in every respect with the sole exception of genitalia. Since genitalia in a space marine serve no function outside the elimination of waste, the point is moot. Perhaps brothers and sisters fight side by side on the battlefield but, from an aesthetic perspective, everyone is a brother.
The image of a sleek and sexy long-legged space marine woman clad in form-fitting armor does not fit within the context of the scientific basis for the fluff. Breasts would stretch and shrink to be nothing more than a thin layer of fat over enormous pectoral muscles. The bone structure would become larger and more dense concealing any hip curvature that once existed. Ovulation would completely stop as testosterone permanently stopped the reproductive system. With that said, 40k is science FICTION and anything’s possible.
The lack of female space marines is probably most likely due to factors evident before recruitment. Males tend to be far more aggressive (possessing more testosterone and a brain chemistry that has evolved in a hunter/warrior context), stronger (possessing more testosterone and about 150% the muscle and bone mass of a female), and more coordinated than females. These attributes probably result in Space Marines overwhelmingly identifying the characteristics they look for in a recruit in males almost to the complete exclusion of females. There certainly could be exceptions but, in the event of those exceptions, as I stated, any physical female characteristics would be lost to the developing space marine physique.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
From an aesthetic point of view the more curvaceous female SM is perhaps acceptable in a manga/anime context but am not personally in favour of the silcone gone mad look. Sexy long legged sounds good 
In a 40K context am in agreement with the physiology you outlined incarna.
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Post by: Lorgar's_Blessed
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:From an aesthetic point of view the more curvaceous female SM is perhaps acceptable in a manga/anime context but am not personally in favour of the silcone gone mad look. Sexy long legged sounds good
In a 40K context am in agreement with the physiology you outlined incarna.
This brings me to think... If any SoB have augmented knockers to fit properly into their armor, wouldn't a penetration to the armor there hurt like a fething betch?
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Post by: Kilkrazy
No more so than anywhere else.
Women have higher pain thresholds than men, anyway.
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Post by: Alpharius
These threads... so much pain.
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but...
The answer to the question "Why can't women be Space Marines?" is "Because GW says that they can't be."
Now, they've said that this is due to physiological/biological/chemical/etc. differences between men and women, and I guess that's that, right?
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Erm, thought that had all been discussed above Alpharius?
which probably means the thread has come full circle- you may put it out of everyones misery if you wish
again I apologise for dragging up the topic unnecessarily and appreciate the input, as it has helped gain some background into the issue.
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Post by: phillosmaster
Frazzled wrote:Na. Its the law. There has to either be an Ork deathrolla thread or a 'whats up with female marines' thread at all times.
The deathrolla problem has been solved forever. I move that it should be replaced with threads about Marneus Calgar and his ability to wield three weapons at once. In all seriousness I've heard it said several times in these threads that the only people who care about lady marines are dirty old basement dwelling men, but in my experience it's always prospective women gamers who ask me this question. I think the answer is because GW said it long ago and now they can't take it back. Why they said it I don't know. Probably because some lazy sculpter didn't want to learn how to make a female marine not look like a male marine wearing a wig. Arguing genetics and the difference between female and male weightlifters is just absurd and this type of talk always seems to lead us into misogynistic territory.
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Post by: incarna
Kilkrazy wrote:No more so than anywhere else.
Women have higher pain thresholds than men, anyway.
This is a common misconception. The pain threshold for men and women is the same. While it is true that giving birth is extremely painful, and this is commonly the argument people use as a premise for the assumption that women have a higher pain threshold the consensus tends to be among men and women, even women who have given birth, and doctors of both sexes is that the most physical pain anyone can experience comes as a result of passing a kidney stone. Kidney stones happen in both sexes and they’re equally painful. The pain comes as a result of the irregular object passing through the Uritor (the line between the kidney and the bladder) not the Urethra (the line from the bladder to the outside world). Automatically Appended Next Post: Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:From an aesthetic point of view the more curvaceous female SM is perhaps acceptable in a manga/anime context but am not personally in favour of the silcone gone mad look. Sexy long legged sounds good
In a 40K context am in agreement with the physiology you outlined incarna.
This brings me to think... If any SoB have augmented knockers to fit properly into their armor, wouldn't a penetration to the armor there hurt like a fething betch?
I think any attack that penetrates ones armor, whether striking an augmented component or not, would hurt an awful lot.
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Post by: Alpharius
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Erm, thought that had all been discussed above Alpharius?
which probably means the thread has come full circle- you may put it out of everyones misery if you wish
again I apologise for dragging up the topic unnecessarily and appreciate the input, as it has helped gain some background into the issue.
Well, to be fair, I did (in a roundabout way!) mention that I had NOT read the entire thread... So, I'm sure that all that I said certainly could have been said!
I'm loathe to lock a thread that will most likely die on its own soon enough though...
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Post by: Kilkrazy
phillosmaster wrote:Frazzled wrote:Na. Its the law. There has to either be an Ork deathrolla thread or a 'whats up with female marines' thread at all times.
The deathrolla problem has been solved forever. I move that it should be replaced with threads about Marneus Calgar and his ability to wield three weapons at once.
In all seriousness I've heard it said several times in these threads that the only people who care about lady marines are dirty old basement dwelling men, but in my experience it's always prospective women gamers who ask me this question.
I think the answer is because GW said it long ago and now they can't take it back.
...
Of course they can. Why are there two missing Primarks?
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Post by: phillosmaster
fair enough, I guess GW said it long ago and now they don't want to take it back.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:okay so the fluffy stuff says that they must be male. But what I now don't understand is how a zygote is deemed male?
The zygote is the initial cell after fertilisation, which lasts about four days before becoming a blastocyst
Determination of gender takes place much later- hence us boys have nipples
I know it's rather late to be replying, but some people are missing the obvious. While sexual characteristics may not appear until later and the initial foetus is indeterminate to ook at, a zygote is determined to be male or female at conception simply because you inherit either an X or Y chromosome from your father which determines gender, making the offspring XX or XY. Barring genetic peculiarities (such as ending up XXY) it's fairly straightforward.
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Post by: tigonesskay
Howard A Treesong wrote:Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:okay so the fluffy stuff says that they must be male. But what I now don't understand is how a zygote is deemed male?
The zygote is the initial cell after fertilisation, which lasts about four days before becoming a blastocyst
Determination of gender takes place much later- hence us boys have nipples
I know it's rather late to be replying, but some people are missing the obvious. While sexual characteristics may not appear until later and the initial foetus is indeterminate to ook at, a zygote is determined to be male or female at conception simply because you inherit either an X or Y chromosome from your father which determines gender, making the offspring XX or XY. Barring genetic peculiarities (such as ending up XXY) it's fairly straightforward.
Usually but not always have you heard of those who are intersexed?
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Post by: Captain Shrike
With these threads it is always going to be an argument, THERE IS NO ONE ANSWER!!! there will always be naysayers and believers, also, when you create fluff, you create your chapter, and geneseeds are not perfect, there could always be a mutation.
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Post by: Dakkadood
Far more prone to OSTEOPOROSIS, and when they have a single plated ribcage, you DO NOT WANT fragile bone.
SRLSY
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Post by: Morgrim
incarna wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:No more so than anywhere else.
Women have higher pain thresholds than men, anyway.
This is a common misconception. The pain threshold for men and women is the same. While it is true that giving birth is extremely painful, and this is commonly the argument people use as a premise for the assumption that women have a higher pain threshold the consensus tends to be among men and women, even women who have given birth, and doctors of both sexes is that the most physical pain anyone can experience comes as a result of passing a kidney stone. Kidney stones happen in both sexes and they’re equally painful. The pain comes as a result of the irregular object passing through the Uritor (the line between the kidney and the bladder) not the Urethra (the line from the bladder to the outside world).
I can't speak of pain threshold, but pain tolerance is (on average) slightly better in females than males. I'd have to go dig about the uni library to quote the exact paper I saw the study in though. Popular culture speculates that it is due to childbirth but it could well be from other factors or a side effect of something else.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
You have to have female SM's in case there is an outbreak of man flu
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Post by: kravus master of Horus
Women are good for s*x not fighting! Unless it's about shoes.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Women are good for sax?
okay, am sure women are perfectly good for all sorts of other wind instruments too.
Moving sort of back on topic, could someone clarify a question that has arisen from the above discussion please?
The amount of musculature increase has been mentioned.
But would the muscle need to be bulked excessively (male or female) because would the power armour take some/lots/all (or perhaps none) of the brunt of the grunt if you see what I mean?
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Post by: Gogsnik
Powered Armour boosts the wearer's strength by roughly one fifth as given in the rules for Inquisitor; which is in addition to the strength it provides to move its own weight.
How is that relevant though? A Space Marine gains extra muscle. Even if it were possible for a female to be turned into an Astartes (which it is not) she would gain extra muscle to the same extent as any other Marine. The process works the way the process works and whilst Marines do retain some individual characteristics they are very, very similar.
Don't forget that the Emperor's original intention was to create a new race of psychic beings, the Primarchs. After they were scattered He went for the next best thing and used what little data He had left to augment ordinary men to be as Primarch-like as possible.
The background states that there can be no female Space Marines/only males can be Space Marines because it only works with males and that's that unless Games Workshop decide otherwise.
That does not stop you creating your own fan-fiction that allows female Space Marines because you say so but they will never, ever, ever, be part of the official background until Games Workshop changes it which seems unlikely.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Much obliged Gogsnik, thanks for the info.
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Post by: Commisar Wallacej5
I've got one thing to say: blood angels "black rage". if you think the guys are bad, wait till the female marines get to that time of the month for the black rage. lol
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Post by: Gogsnik
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Much obliged Gogsnik, thanks for the info.
No worries; it may be a game mechanic but I don't recall any background information that states by how much strength is increased by Powered Armour so it's about as close to a solid number as we can get.
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Post by: usernamesareannoying
cause stone cold said so!
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Post by: tigonesskay
Dakkadood wrote:Far more prone to OSTEOPOROSIS, and when they have a single plated ribcage, you DO NOT WANT fragile bone.
SRLSY
Women are more prone to osteoporisis because we trend to live more longer than men do and by the time a man starts to show the first signs of it they are usually dead.
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Post by: Grey Templar
True dat
besides a space marines bones are mostly ceramic compounds so any bone loss diesease like Osteoperosis wouldn't have much effect and a space marine will not EVER get a diesease like that anyway.
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Post by: Dr. Ew
The lack of female marines is for cultural, rather than scientific reasons. There are no female navy seals or army rangers either...
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Post by: incarna
tigonesskay wrote:Dakkadood wrote:Far more prone to OSTEOPOROSIS, and when they have a single plated ribcage, you DO NOT WANT fragile bone.
SRLSY
Women are more prone to osteoporisis because we trend to live more longer than men do and by the time a man starts to show the first signs of it they are usually dead.
Osteoporosis is largely driven by a drop in estrogen in women after menopause (~age 50) and a drop in testosterone in men (~age 70). Women are prone to osteoporosis due to two factors – their adult bone structure tends to be slight in comparison to men; they simply have less to lose and – bone development in women is tied strongly to hormonal levels that change dramatically after menopause.
Also, it is a common misconception that the life span discrepancy between men and women is due to biological factors. Men and women live the same lifespan however men are far and away more prone to dying young through violence and/or unnecessary risk taking. The impact of deaths through accidents or violence at a young age simply brings the average down for men but, if you’re male and you’ve survived your teens and twenties, you’ll probably die around the same age as a woman.
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Post by: Twisted_Thrasher
Personally I think that them as Battle sisters takes up place instead of them being actual marines
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Twisted_Thrasher wrote:Personally I think that them as Battle sisters takes up place instead of them being actual marines
Have recently been wondering about that as a possiblity. Will need to get some background first then decide hoe that plats with my SW army.
possibility is having a dedicated unit poss called Valkyries with lots of Hiya hoo haas and loadspeakers blasting out Wagner
maybe they could be my Thunderwolves
early days yet plenty of time to sort it all out.
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Post by: Soladrin
Dr. Ew wrote:The lack of female marines is for cultural, rather than scientific reasons. There are no female navy seals or army rangers either...in the US army.
fixed it
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Post by: Khalaxis
first post here on dakka.
I've seen this topic on just about every 40k forum there is, and i have to ask, why is it a huge mystery why GW wont allow female marines?
my 2 cents,
Space Marines = Badass Gothic Warrior-Monks/Emotionless Killing machines.
The Imperium = Grimdark Nazi/Roman/medieval european, Fascist/Theocratic Space Kingdom
why are there no female space marines?
simple, beyond all the pseudoscientific fluff reasons, female marines just dont have a place in a society were mysogny and segregation are a given, particularly in a sub-group of that society modeled on historical warrior orders that were exclusivly male.
the imperium is not an equal opportunity egalitarian utopia.
Sororitas and oh so rare female IG, are exceptions to the rule. relegated to groups that are exclusivly female.
POWER ARMORED BOOBS BELONG IN ANIME!!!! LEAVE THEM THERE!!!
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Post by: Soladrin
Khalaxis wrote:first post here on dakka.
I've seen this topic on just about every 40k forum there is, and i have to ask, why is it a huge mystery why GW wont allow female marines?
my 2 cents,
Space Marines = Badass Gothic Warrior-Monks/Emotionless Killing machines.
The Imperium = Grimdark Nazi/Roman/medieval european, Fascist/Theocratic Space Kingdom
why are there no female space marines?
simple, beyond all the pseudoscientific fluff reasons, female marines just dont have a place in a society were mysogny and segregation are a given, particularly in a sub-group of that society modeled on historical warrior orders that were exclusivly male.
the imperium is not an equal opportunity egalitarian utopia.
Sororitas and oh so rare female IG, are exceptions to the rule. relegated to groups that are exclusivly female.
POWER ARMORED BOOBS BELONG IN ANIME!!!! LEAVE THEM THERE!!!
There are mixed companies.... also, Female IG are extremely rare model wise, fluff wise, not nearly as rare as the models I think.
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Post by: Khalaxis
I seem to remember reading somewhere that female IG were rare outside of all female units, i could be wrong though.
the only place i can remember reading about female IG was abnetts ghosts series, and even then i think its just a female medic, and a squad leader who always takes flak for being female.
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Post by: Soladrin
Ciaphas Cain, read it. Starts with two companies (one male, one female) which are added together due to losses.
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Post by: Gwar!
Soladrin wrote:Ciaphas Cain, read it. Starts with two companies (one male, one female) which are added together due to losses.
-Slaps-
It's Ciaphas Cain, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by: Soladrin
-counter slaps-
No it Isn't, It's the Ciaphas Cain series, first book, wich is called For the Emperor.
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Post by: Khalaxis
Soladrin wrote:Ciaphas Cain, read it. Starts with two companies (one male, one female) which are added together due to losses.
So the companies are originally gender exclusive but are merged out of necessity? that seems to support what i originally thought.
might give the Cain series a try though, is it anything like abnett's stuff?
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Post by: Dr. Ew
Soladrin wrote:Dr. Ew wrote:The lack of female marines is for cultural, rather than scientific reasons. There are no female navy seals or army rangers either...in the US army.
fixed it
Thanks for the totally unnecessary fix. Navy Seals and Army Ranges are part of the United States military, so yes, in the U.S. there are no female Rangers or Seals. However in the regular U.S. army and navy their are plenty of women. My point was that for cultural reasons the elite military services (e.g. Rangers and Seals) are restricted to men - women can't join the SAS or the French Foreign Legion either.
Could women fulfill the requirements? I am sure in many cases they could, but I think it is less because of their physical capacity that women are excluded from combat roles, and more because the military leadership believes they would be a distraction to their male counterparts. Of course women were just permitted to begin serving on submarines, so maybe it will change for foot soldiers soon as well.
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Post by: Gogsnik
Khalaxis wrote:might give the Cain series a try though, is it anything like abnett's stuff?
No. Think Flashman in Space and you're there. Very entertaining stuff.
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Post by: Captain Shrike
Dr. Ew wrote:Soladrin wrote:Dr. Ew wrote:The lack of female marines is for cultural, rather than scientific reasons. There are no female navy seals or army rangers either...in the US army.
fixed it
Thanks for the totally unnecessary fix. Navy Seals and Army Ranges are part of the United States military, so yes, in the U.S. there are no female Rangers or Seals. However in the regular U.S. army and navy their are plenty of women. My point was that for cultural reasons the elite military services (e.g. Rangers and Seals) are restricted to men - women can't join the SAS or the French Foreign Legion either.
Could women fulfill the requirements? I am sure in many cases they could, but I think it is less because of their physical capacity that women are excluded from combat roles, and more because the military leadership believes they would be a distraction to their male counterparts. Of course women were just permitted to begin serving on submarines, so maybe it will change for foot soldiers soon as well.
But space marines are iron willed and would not be distracted, plus, all that armour makes them featurless.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
all that brain washing + bromide in their tea would mean that they would not be distracted by females.
Some comments were made about the excessive size of breasts that Femarines would invariably be modelled with. SoB's were mentioned as an acceptable female fighting force, if not up to SM superhuman status.
Sisters of Battle are portrayed in very fetishitic clobber. With very prominent breasts. So am a bit confused as to why there have been complaints against SM females having same?
Please don't misunderstand- the overlarge breasts depicted in anime and manga does nothing for me and don't see a place for it on SM's or SoB's either. just personal preference. but there appears to be a bit of a mixed message going on
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Post by: IggyEssEmManlyMan
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
so is the fluff flawed or please explain what I missed
Gender is determined chromosomes by chromosomes shortly after conception. The ability to determine whether the child-to-be is not within human grasp until a much later date.
How ever, in the fluff, I believe zygote is being used as the name for the first cell of the enhancements to enter the marine's body.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Zygote is a technical biological term which GW use to sound 'sciencey'.
Many real medical terms use Latin or Greek roots so the GW made sciencey sounding names for various SM organs like ossmodula and so on.
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Post by: Dr. Ew
True dat Shrike, Space Marines could care less about booty, they only want to please the God-Emperor.
Maybe there are no female Space Marines because women of the 41st millennium simply have enough sense to not bother with such things.
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Post by: micahaphone
Here's a decent argument for having female space marines.
http://www.fightingtigersofveda.com/roarsgirls.html
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Post by: Grey Templar
Political Correctness- Tyrany of the minority
That was a well worded article
I am however glad 40k is not like other games in several respects. It is more realistic in that there are no female space marines. there are plenty of woman warriors in the fluff and there are many effective female models.
The Emperor, as far as we know, made all the primarchs males. this is the best reason for there being no women SMs, not that it wouldn't be possable. lots of things are possable it is possable for me to win the lottery mug someone for lunch money and dance the macarena on my front lawn in tighty-whities while juggling bananas It is not PROBABLE, but it could happen
Disclaimer-this is not a personal attack, insult, or mock- it is an attack on  ing political correctness
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
and dance the macarena on my front lawn in tighty-whities while juggling bananas
we want to see
hang on- that is NO WAY TO TREAT A BANANA!!!!
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Post by: Grey Templar
I could juggle chickens instead, or would that offend the P.E.T.A people
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
not as much as it would offend the chickens!
nor come to think of it, the mods for straying way off topic :gulp:
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Post by: yorkskargrimironklaw
Manchu wrote:There are plenty of female space marines('  ');
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Post by: Khalaxis
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:all that brain washing + bromide in their tea would mean that they would not be distracted by females.
Some comments were made about the excessive size of breasts that Femarines would invariably be modelled with. SoB's were mentioned as an acceptable female fighting force, if not up to SM superhuman status.
Sisters of Battle are portrayed in very fetishitic clobber. With very prominent breasts. So am a bit confused as to why there have been complaints against SM females having same?
Please don't misunderstand- the overlarge breasts depicted in anime and manga does nothing for me and don't see a place for it on SM's or SoB's either. just personal preference. but there appears to be a bit of a mixed message going on
not i was driving at with the power armored boobs in anime crack, i just meant that in anime sci fi settings generally, but not always, the heroes and villains are represented men/women in equal number. 40k is somewhat more realistic in that the factions have prejudices, cultural bias etc. its hard to argue that women space marines would make the setting more plausible/realistic when women are under-represented in real world military forces as well.
i don't think SoB boobs or costumes are that out of whack, they seem to fit the imperium's aesthetic rather well.
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Post by: tigonesskay
Dr. Ew wrote:Soladrin wrote:Dr. Ew wrote:The lack of female marines is for cultural, rather than scientific reasons. There are no female navy seals or army rangers either...in the US army.
fixed it
Thanks for the totally unnecessary fix. Navy Seals and Army Ranges are part of the United States military, so yes, in the U.S. there are no female Rangers or Seals. However in the regular U.S. army and navy their are plenty of women. My point was that for cultural reasons the elite military services (e.g. Rangers and Seals) are restricted to men - women can't join the SAS or the French Foreign Legion either.
Could women fulfill the requirements? I am sure in many cases they could, but I think it is less because of their physical capacity that women are excluded from combat roles, and more because the military leadership believes they would be a distraction to their male counterparts. Of course women were just permitted to begin serving on submarines, so maybe it will change for foot soldiers soon as well.
I think the real reason why females aren't allowed in the speical forces is because the public is still not used to the idea of females fighting in the infintry or in direct combat and they can only be in non infintry units, which makes no sense because those units are often attacked too. If the female is caught by the enemy heaven knows what they would do to her espeically in certain parts of the world where females are beheaded in honor killings and such.
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Post by: Captain Shrike
I have a character in my SM chapter fluff that is a woman, she is not a SM, she fills a non-combat role, but she is still an important character (it's more WHAT she is, not what she does, but nevertheless I include her)
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Post by: Slarg232
Kilkrazy wrote:Zygote is a technical biological term which GW use to sound 'sciencey'.
Many real medical terms use Latin or Greek roots so the GW made sciencey sounding names for various SM organs like ossmodula and so on.
technobabble is the term for it, I beleive.
In the "People are killing Warhammer 40k!" thread, there were femarines that I thought looked really cool, and would not look out of place standing next to Calgar.
as for the sisters of battle armor..... Well, you can't say no to Kick-#$% corsets...
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
as for the sisters of battle armor..... Well, you can't say no to Kick-#$% corsets
see I was right- the outfit is sooo fetishistic!
Take your point Khalaxis. Some objections to the caricatured female form with bazoobies the size of Japan were made. The S&M SoB uniform is not that exaggerated in fairness.
While not being Silicon Spacebabes there is still an aspect of the SoB cos design that panders to male fantasy.
Also someone mentioned the misogynistic ideology of the Imperium, which is also fair comment
right off to cold shower self flagulation and don my hair shirt to purge all sinful thoughts I now have thinking about all that stuff.
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Post by: Captain Shrike
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:as for the sisters of battle armor..... Well, you can't say no to Kick-#$% corsets
see I was right- the outfit is sooo fetishistic!
Take your point Khalaxis. Some objections to the caricatured female form with bazoobies the size of Japan were made. The S&M SoB uniform is not that exaggerated in fairness.
While not being Silicon Spacebabes there is still an aspect of the SoB cos design that panders to male fantasy.
Also someone mentioned the misogynistic ideology of the Imperium, which is also fair comment
right off to cold shower self flagulation and don my hair shirt to purge all sinful thoughts I now have thinking about all that stuff.
Again armour that thick would render most featureless.
although this is ok I guess:
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Post by: Gwar!
That's a Guy. It's far to pretty to be a girl!
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Post by: Captain Shrike
Oh really?.....
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Post by: jerbear1071
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:In a recent thread about the role of women in 40K, the point was made that women are not allowed/cannot be Space Marines. The question raised by myself and another newbie has so far been unanswered.
Would be grateful for some input as to why SM's are exclusively male please
Thanks in advance.
The Emperor created his Primarchs in his image, and then from them their chapters of marines in their image. Thus in a way they are all clones of the Emperor- his "sons". Since he's male,logic says that the marines must be too as they are "copies" in regards to organs and abilities. Automatically Appended Next Post: IvanTih wrote:Because the Emperor and his scientists created geneseed only for males what's the point in having a female space marine,males are stronger,have hardier constitution and other things.
And women have a better center of gravity and faster reflexes, what's your point?
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Thanks Cap'n
yup I agree but don't mind that at all
The image looks like she is too narrow waisted to me. With all the extra organs needed for SM conversion the figure would be different and as you say the armour would mean any curvature would be lost.
Having said that - it is the upper torso that needs the capacity? But then the lower torso needs bulking with musculature and armour to support the upper bulk as compensation.
That anime female space marine sculpt is okay as a decorative piece ( fwiw looks much larger than a 28mm gaming figure) and should be seen only as that imho
But is not what I am thinking of as an exemplar.
Hi Jerbear,
Yes that has been established but thanks anyway.
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Post by: IvanTih
IvanTih wrote:Because the Emperor and his scientists created geneseed only for males what's the point in having a female space marine,males are stronger,have hardier constitution and other things.
And women have a better center of gravity and faster reflexes, what's your point?
Reflexes won't matter when you're bashed by a fist or some object and you can not say that either sex is better or faster at any given response.
You can evade hits or other things with reflexes,but that won't matter when you're dealing with someone who has a larger strength and hardier constitution.
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Post by: jerbear1071
IvanTih wrote:IvanTih wrote:Because the Emperor and his scientists created geneseed only for males what's the point in having a female space marine,males are stronger,have hardier constitution and other things.
And women have a better center of gravity and faster reflexes, what's your point?
Reflexes won't matter when you're bashed by a fist or some object and you can not say that either sex is better or faster at any given response.
You can evade hits or other things with reflexes,but that won't matter when you're dealing with someone who has a larger strength and hardier constitution.
You really think that someone who is stronger can always beat someone harder to hit and faster? Watch Bruce Lee some time and rethink your stance!
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Post by: IvanTih
jerbear1071 wrote:IvanTih wrote:IvanTih wrote:Because the Emperor and his scientists created geneseed only for males what's the point in having a female space marine,males are stronger,have hardier constitution and other things.
And women have a better center of gravity and faster reflexes, what's your point?
Reflexes won't matter when you're bashed by a fist or some object and you can not say that either sex is better or faster at any given response.
You can evade hits or other things with reflexes,but that won't matter when you're dealing with someone who has a larger strength and hardier constitution.
You really think that someone who is stronger can always beat someone harder to hit and faster? Watch Bruce Lee some time and rethink your stance!
I've watched Lee many times and reflexes sometimes beat brute strength and both sexes are equal in relfexes,some people are faster and some are slower.
More dakka will beat reflexes.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
That flips the thread to "A Justification of Melee Weapons in 40K" or whatever it was called.
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Post by: IvanTih
Kilkrazy wrote:That flips the thread to "In Defense of Melee Weapons in 40K" or whatever it was called.
Fixed.
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Post by: I grappled the shoggoth
jerbear1071 wrote:IvanTih wrote:IvanTih wrote:Because the Emperor and his scientists created geneseed only for males what's the point in having a female space marine,males are stronger,have hardier constitution and other things.
And women have a better center of gravity and faster reflexes, what's your point?
Reflexes won't matter when you're bashed by a fist or some object and you can not say that either sex is better or faster at any given response.
You can evade hits or other things with reflexes,but that won't matter when you're dealing with someone who has a larger strength and hardier constitution.
You really think that someone who is stronger can always beat someone harder to hit and faster? Watch Bruce Lee some time and rethink your stance!
Bruce Lee would get destroyed by most of the fighters in the professional MMA circuits.
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Post by: eldarbgamer13
Because guardsmen might get their way with them and that would be HERESY. Then the guardsmen would be purged. Thinking that they were under attack, the guardsmen regiment would rise to crush the foe, and cause infighting. Then the Emperor would have to waist a braincell to psycicly tell an Inquistor or preist or something to break up the conflict with more purging. This would cause the Imperium to diminish a litle more, and the emperor to get an inch closer to being entirely dead. That is why.
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Post by: Captain Shrike
Saying that a gaurdsmen could have his way with a space marine is like saying GW will make this hobby affordable.
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Post by: eldarbgamer13
Captain Shrike wrote:Saying that a gaurdsmen could have his way with a space marine is like saying GW will make this hobby affordable.
you never know, half of the space marine legions turned to chaos. I'm just saying.
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Post by: Captain Shrike
ohhhhhhhhh.............hehehehehehehhehehe.......
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