I have had experience in the past of people cheating by using weighted dice while in tournaments. Once giving me the weighted dice such that it was only possible for me to role ones. And on other occasions using dice that roll 6's in order to blow up my vehicle.

So does anyone have any advice/stratagies to stop/dissuade people from using weighted dice and cheating?

Throw dice in a bucket of water. If they are weighted the same sides will float up.

G

Find a flat surface, then place the dice on its corner with your pointer finger on the opposite corner. Then flick one side with your free hand. If it is weighted it will wobble.

For more random info on dice see my other dice posts


Welcome,
Chris the craps dealer.




On a side note in a major tourney I will use my opponents dice or have him use mine.

If for some reason he does hand you two dice to roll toss them into his dice box and give them a shake "for luck" then just roll your dice the rest of the game.

We have this simple rule in our Code of Conduct:

Dice: AdeptiCon does not require the use any specific type of dice, however your dice must ALWAYS be made available to your opponent to use if they so desire. AdeptiCon reserves the right to remove any dice showing excessive wear, obvious tampering or other questionable deformities.

I got accused of using weighted dice recently... fun times. Just keep in mind that most of the time you are dealing with small sample sizes, so don't be suprised if the results skew from normal occasionally.

Like Matthias said, the best way to handle it is to allow your opponent to use your dice or ask your opponent if you can use theirs.

Share dice... they have no right to complain.

Personally I hate when people use 'special dice' for special' roles like armor saves for ICs and such.

They probably are not cheaters, but there are people who are who they probably learned it from a guy who had a tradition of lucky dice... So they are emulating cheating without actually knowing why.

If he uses special dice for his IC armor saves, I'll use the same dice for my IC saves. So be it.

nkelsch wrote:Personally I hate when people use 'special dice' for special' roles like armor saves for ICs and such.

They probably are not cheaters, but there are people who are who they probably learned it from a guy who had a tradition of lucky dice... So they are emulating cheating without actually knowing why.

That's being a little generous, I think...

Most people, particularly if they are using cheaper dice (which tend to be less well balanced) over time find that certain dice tend to roll high, and others to roll low. So the less scrupulous player will quite often set dice aside for certain rolls, depending on how those dice tend to fall.

A lot of them won't even think of it as cheating... the dice are 'technically' fine, as they're not specifically weighted. I'll admit to doing it myself in the past before I stopped and actually thought about it.

On the tournament front, I would actually like to see tournaments issue dice specifically for use at that event, possibly as part of an 'entry pack' that is covered by your attendance fee. Throw in Dice, a summary sheet, set of templates and a whippy stick, and nobody can ever complain about forgetting the appropriate equipment.

Yeah... I consider using seperate dice for different rolls to be pretty close to cheating. Use the same dice for saves as you do for leadership.

I agree that dice as part of an entry pack is nice and probably the most balanced way of doing it... even though I'd miss my dice that match my army.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Throw dice in a bucket of water. If they are weighted the same sides will float up.

G

Yeah - that doesn't necessarily work with all such dice.

I have seen it work for weighted dice. It's a fast way to check. Some people have a few dice they keep on hand when they need to roll high or low.

About using other peoples dice, just make sure you return them when hte game is over. I have three sets of 12 Dakka Dakka dice, red green & brown... Well I used to have three sets of 12 until an opponent rolling my dice kept some after the game was over.

G

insaniak wrote:
On the tournament front, I would actually like to see tournaments issue dice specifically for use at that event, possibly as part of an 'entry pack' that is covered by your attendance fee. Throw in Dice, a summary sheet, set of templates and a whippy stick, and nobody can ever complain about forgetting the appropriate equipment.

THAT is a great idea!

Make them somewhat special looking, relating to the tournament itself, and will be a nice keepsake too.

Of course, baring that, the 'sharing' route sounds good too.

I used to run Battletech events with a group of guys. After a con, one guy was accused of (and found guilty) of using cheating dice.

After that, we shelled out about $20 each and just took piles of dice with us to tourneys. You didn't get to use your dice at all. Only the dice we provide. NO exceptions.


In a tourney, ask to use your opponent's dice in the same situation. If they say no, call the judge and tell him what you suspect. Frankly, if they are even slightly hesitant, take them away from them. If they are weighted, ban them from any and all tournaments for all time.

Things to look for:
#1. They use different dice when they want to roll high than when they want to roll low.
#2. The dice look funny when they roll on the table or just fall funny.
#3. Your opponent is rolling a lot of '6's.



First off, don't accuse your opponent of cheating which is what you are doing if you ask then to drop their dice in a bucket, because you will be wrong 99% of time. No one wants to be accused of cheating, and you might give someone the stigma of cheating even if it turns out you are wrong.

The simple solution is to just have them roll your dice instead of their own.

Allan if you ask them to rll your dice it's just the same to them as a bucket test.

A year ago I was playing against a daemon army and the opponent was making all of his INV saves. It was crazy. I called over a judge, we inspected his dice he rolled for saves and they were all 5s & 6s.

If your dice are not rigged and your opponent won't let you use them that is akin to bullying.

G

Yeah... I think it's more polite to ask to use their dice. "Man, your dice are really hot right now... maybe some of that luck will rub off on me."

Even still, it's definately not something to ask lightly, though.

the problem is that some people are particularly superstitious about other's using their dice. i knew a d&d player who didn't roll well but never let anyone roll his dice. he got mad once when he sat next to me and put all the dice in between us and i used his d6's for a fireball damage roll. unless the tourney rules say otherwise, no one has to LET you use their dice. you have the right to call a tourney organizer over if you suspsect foul play but you don't have an automatic right to use someone else's hobby tools. nor can you force them to use your dice.

Hmm, Been on the recieving end of being called a cheat. A battletech group I played with would get irritated with me because I rolled an inordinate number of Head Shots. The problem was I used whatever dice were handy at the time. I didn't have a dedicated set of dice for gaming outside of D&D.

Of course ther are also those that subscribe to the idea of "rolling the Ones/Sixes out" Meaning that they roll a ton of dice and seperate out those that roll the proscribed number, then roll those again, putting aside the ones that repeated the "bad" roll. The idea being that the same die rolling that number 3 times in a row was so astronomical as to be nearly improbable.

I feel weird (superstitious) about letting people touch my dice. I swear all my buddy Jeff need to do is LOOK at my dice and I roll 1's and 1's and 1's. I'd be happy to throw my dice in a bucket of water, but don't ask me to let someone else touch my dice!

I do love the idea of having custom dice for tournaments, and we might end up doing that with our club. That would up the price a bit, but who wouldn't love having custom tournament dice?

helgrenze wrote:Of course ther are also those that subscribe to the idea of "rolling the Ones/Sixes out" Meaning that they roll a ton of dice and seperate out those that roll the proscribed number, then roll those again, putting aside the ones that repeated the "bad" roll. The idea being that the same die rolling that number 3 times in a row was so astronomical as to be nearly improbable.

Aka those that fail at stats...

Seriously though, I was recently accused of having loaded dice and it's not a fun experience. One thing you have to keep in mind with "loaded" dice is perception is everything. Your dice may roll average, but if they come up big in 1-2 really important rolls it can completely change the perceived "fairness" of their rolling. Likewise, if you're getting tabled by someone, it's often human nature to think they're just having really lucky or even "loaded" dice. I'm sure everyone has experienced the guy who complains about dice the whole game when in reality it was the fact that they came at your army piecemeal that allowed you to roflstomp them.

helgrenze wrote: Of course ther are also those that subscribe to the idea of "rolling the Ones/Sixes out" Meaning that they roll a ton of dice and seperate out those that roll the proscribed number, then roll those again, putting aside the ones that repeated the "bad" roll. The idea being that the same die rolling that number 3 times in a row was so astronomical as to be nearly improbable.

Someone needs to tell these people about Independent Probability. The die that just rolled it's seventeenth six is equally likely to roll another six as the one that just rolled a one. It's funny how much superstition there is out there.

I try to make a point of sharing dice with my opponent, not only for simplicity (when they finish rolling to wound you simply take the ones that succeeded and roll them yourself for saves) but also to avoid the problem of dice mixing; if only one player's dice are on the table, it's easy for them to pack up instead of going through the inevitably cross-contaminated dice piles and picking out what is/is not yours. That way you don't even have to worry about funky dice.

I've been called on using loaded dice because I roll well. I have two sets of dice I use. About 60 cheap GW red little dice for when I charge massive units of Hormagaunts and such, and a set of 21 large white dice. I like rolling the normal size white dice for most of my rolls because I like the feel of bigger dice. Do they roll better? No, but I've had opponents tell em to just use the red ones for some odd reason.

I make a point of offering my opponent the use of my dice at the beginning of every game (friendly or tourney). Never had a problem.

My dice are not loaded and I'd gladly put them up for any test that wouldn't rui them.

My one true gaming supersitition, though, is someone else using -or even touching- my dice. I've been that way for almost 29 years, now.
Just don't touch my dice. I don't like it.

The idea of sharing someone else's dice is equally appalling to me.

Eric

insaniak wrote:On the tournament front, I would actually like to see tournaments issue dice specifically for use at that event, possibly as part of an 'entry pack' that is covered by your attendance fee. Throw in Dice, a summary sheet, set of templates and a whippy stick, and nobody can ever complain about forgetting the appropriate equipment.

I like this idea. Larger tournaments could even get the dice personalized for their tournament from some of the personalized dice vendors. Then, the players both can't accuse the other of cheating with dice, and the players get to leave with a cool souvenir of the event.

The Defenestrator wrote:

helgrenze wrote: Of course ther are also those that subscribe to the idea of "rolling the Ones/Sixes out" Meaning that they roll a ton of dice and seperate out those that roll the proscribed number, then roll those again, putting aside the ones that repeated the "bad" roll. The idea being that the same die rolling that number 3 times in a row was so astronomical as to be nearly improbable.

Someone needs to tell these people about Independent Probability. The die that just rolled it's seventeenth six is equally likely to roll another six as the one that just rolled a one. It's funny how much superstition there is out there.

Independence in this case presupposes that the dice used are fair, and the mechanism described appears to be more of a (admittedly bad) method of attempting to find dice that aren't fair.

But then again, I'm the sort who tests dice for fairness and don't play with the set that favors the 2/5 axis over the 1/6, even though the roll still averages out to 3.5.



Anyway, another issue most folks have with ascertaining fair dice from playing in a game is either a poor grasp of statistics, especially a failure to understand selection bias.

As an example, a couple of weeks ago, I put five wounds on a single marine holding an objective. The other player rolled five ones on armor saves.

The odds of rolling five ones on that specific roll? 1 in 7776.

The odds of rolling five ones in sequence out of a thousand rolls (which is, by a back-of-envelope calculation, a reasonable estimate for a game of 40k)? Roughly 1 in 8.

You're more likely to roll a sequence of the same number five times in a thousand rolls than you are to not do so.

The odds of rolling 5 ones wether sequential or simultanious are the same 1:7776 not 1 in 8.

ohh i see your saying if you roll 1000 dice in sequence thus 7776/1000 = 1:8

the odds of rolling at least one one in 5d6 is 59.82% (1-(5/6)^5)

lixulana wrote:The odds of rolling 5 ones wether sequential or simultanious are the same 1:7776 not 1 in 8.

ohh i see your saying if you roll 1000 dice in sequence thus 7776/1000 = 1:8

the odds of rolling at least one one in 5d6 is 59.82% (1-(5/6)^5)

Viewed from the front, before any of the rolls have occurred, yes.

But after already rolling 4 1's, the probability of rolling a fifth 1 is still 1 in 6.

This thread is missing a very important response. But don't worry, I can help out with it.


I'd punch them in the face!

I think looking at the suggestions so far given i'd say the best are:
That the organisers should supply the dice and that only these are used during the tournament. Idealy make them custom so others couldn't sneek in their dice. Like this idea.
If thats not possible I think it should be perfectly permissable that someone should offer that both players only use their dice for the game.

Hopefully people arn't too much into superstition and that both players can see the benefit of using one set of dice.

I wouldn't be able to use someone else's dice, just couldn't do it. Like Baseball Players superstitions. I've gone and bought new dice rather than use someone else's. I just feel like I would be contaminating them. Plus the whole germs thing...

ceorron wrote:I have had experience in the past of people cheating by using weighted dice while in tournaments. Once giving me the weighted dice such that it was only possible for me to role ones. And on other occasions using dice that roll 6's in order to blow up my vehicle.

So does anyone have any advice/stratagies to stop/dissuade people from using weighted dice and cheating?

Its called tell the TO and let the judges do thier job and remove them from the tourney and call them on being TFG.

Nothing better to deal with this then the truth.

Timmah wrote:This thread is missing a very important response. But don't worry, I can help out with it.


I'd punch them in the face!

Timmah has the right of it.

If you won't let other people touch your dice and won't use other dice, get over it or play a game that doesnt require human interaction. I hear solitare is all the rage.

I played in a tournament in Tampa that had a prize of $1000 and they supplies everyone with a ton of dice with there logo on it that we all had to use.

At the Wild West Shootout, battlefoam gave everyone a brick of their dice. Most people were using them. Then I played Shep and he was not using them, and his dice where on fire! For example, he took out 2 of my war walkers with one crappy multilaser. I asked him where were the dice that he got from the tournament (I wanted him to start using them) and he said they were out in his car, so I just dropped it. His dice cooled off in the later part of the game like dice always do.

nkelsch wrote:Share dice... they have no right to complain.

Personally I hate when people use 'special dice' for special' roles like armor saves for ICs and such.

They probably are not cheaters, but there are people who are who they probably learned it from a guy who had a tradition of lucky dice... So they are emulating cheating without actually knowing why.

If he uses special dice for his IC armor saves, I'll use the same dice for my IC saves. So be it.

Well, there may be more than luck to that die, since many dice are not properly balanced to begin with. And folks crazy enough to reserve a die for a particular type of roll will usually pitch a fit if you try to touch it, much less roll it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:

Timmah has the right of it.

Doxies are the greatest breed in the world. There is no better pet, period. Or a more adorable one. Does that one have an insatiable craving for weed? All three of mine do. The doberman and retriever hate it, the doxies will come running from the other side of the house at the first flick of the lighter.

Blackmoor wrote:I played in a tournament in Tampa that had a prize of $1000 and they supplies everyone with a ton of dice with there logo on it that we all had to use.

At the Wild West Shootout, battlefoam gave everyone a brick of their dice. Most people were using them. Then I played Shep and he was not using them, and his dice where on fire! For example, he took out 2 of my war walkers with one crappy multilaser. I asked him where were the dice that he got from the tournament (I wanted him to start using them) and he said they were out in his car, so I just dropped it. His dice cooled off in the later part of the game like dice always do.

I think it's clear Shep was cheating. Let's start an Intarwebs unruly mob!!

ceorron wrote:I think looking at the suggestions so far given i'd say the best are:
That the organisers should supply the dice and that only these are used during the tournament. Idealy make them custom so others couldn't sneek in their dice. Like this idea.
If thats not possible I think it should be perfectly permissable that someone should offer that both players only use their dice for the game.

Hopefully people arn't too much into superstition and that both players can see the benefit of using one set of dice.

The first three years we supplied all of the dice at Ironman there were a lot of player complaints about not getting to use their own dice, however around the 4th year it stopped being an issue for players. While they aren't exactly custom each color is a different size and all of the scatter dice are club marked.

I hate people using my tools. It just irritates me.

I did play a game where the kid just kept rolling 1's, over and over and over. I offered to let him use my dice, and he did for a turn and rolled a more even spread. He then went back to his dice and kept rolling 1's.

While I would prefer using my own dice, since I have them color matched to my armies, with some color variation for different weapons, I would not be adverse to using tournament supplied dice. I hate the small dice though....with a passion.

Timmah wrote:This thread is missing a very important response. But don't worry, I can help out with it.


I'd punch them in the face!

I wouldn't make it so easy on them.

I'd just let it slide till after the tourny/game then wait outside. A pair of sprue clippers in hand for the delicate disscussion that would shortly ensue.

General Hobbs wrote:
I hate people using my tools. It just irritates me.

I did play a game where the kid just kept rolling 1's, over and over and over. I offered to let him use my dice, and he did for a turn and rolled a more even spread. He then went back to his dice and kept rolling 1's.

While I would prefer using my own dice, since I have them color matched to my armies, with some color variation for different weapons, I would not be adverse to using tournament supplied dice. I hate the small dice though....with a passion.

He was probably using the GW dice, right? Those are statistically proven to roll more 1s.

I have 30 custom red dice with a Khorne symbol on the 6 side that I have for my Berzerkers. Since I only use these when I am rolling for my Berzerkers, people have been a bit suspicious of me from time to time.

whalemusic360 wrote:If you won't let other people touch your dice and won't use other dice, get over it or play a game that doesn't require human interaction. I hear solitaire is all the rage.

This.

My orks are pink and purple. I have a block of pink chessex dice that have sparkles in them and a block of purple chessex dice. My wife prefers the pink dice when she plays; I use the purple dice because the sparkles catch the light and make me strain to see what I rolled (although other folks say they can see them just fine).

I also have 12 of the AoBR white dice (same size as chessex) and I use those when I need to roll 37+ dice (since there's only 36 in the block of chessex). I also use the white dice to demarcate wounds, show vehicle damage, etc.

I have 6 big casino dice. I read a lengthy report on Dakka about why Chessex dice roll 29% instead of 16% due to the shaping, pip drilling; I'd love to use the casino dice, but after rolling them a couple of times, the edges are sharp, which can damage a table top, and without being able to get good distance (not possible within a confined area on the table) they don't roll well. I use a dice box now, but I haven't tried rolling them in there.

I also have a random assortment of other larger dice in one of my carry cases that I got before I discovered the block of D6 from chessex.

If someone were to create a chessex block of casino dice (non-drilled pips, square corners) they would be all the rage and chessex would probably go out of business. =p Unless chessex made them. I'd buy them.

I don't mind people using my dice, and sometimes I use their dice if I'm on their side of the table and I'd have to go around the table to get some of mine to roll. I've never looked for loaded dice in a tournament (or against any opponent before) - after reading a thread like this once, I did some intensive internet research and came up blank for making loaded dice - apparently you can stick them in the oven, but dice don't melt that easily - and the trick dice you can buy online are set to roll 7s and such. I've heard random tales about people using loaded dice, but I've never felt like someone was cheating me (except on vassal, where the RNG used for the dice roller is rigged to roll 50% whenever I roll dice)

Ozymandias wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:I played in a tournament in Tampa that had a prize of $1000 and they supplies everyone with a ton of dice with there logo on it that we all had to use.

At the Wild West Shootout, battlefoam gave everyone a brick of their dice. Most people were using them. Then I played Shep and he was not using them, and his dice where on fire! For example, he took out 2 of my war walkers with one crappy multilaser. I asked him where were the dice that he got from the tournament (I wanted him to start using them) and he said they were out in his car, so I just dropped it. His dice cooled off in the later part of the game like dice always do.

I think it's clear Shep was cheating. Let's start an Intarwebs unruly mob!!

OMG shep was cheating? What a jerk.

I mean there is only about a 30% chance he kills one, so 2 with 1 weapon, yea like that's going to happen.

Dez wrote:I wouldn't be able to use someone else's dice, just couldn't do it. Like Baseball Players superstitions. I've gone and bought new dice rather than use someone else's. I just feel like I would be contaminating them. Plus the whole germs thing...

Sounds like Dez uses loaded dice to me...

Seriously though, some of you guys are just asking to get accused, if you point blank refuse to let someone use your dice, then what are they going to think? They are just dice, i will happily use the box of GW ones i carry, or the other guys, if the other guy has a big box of dice, most of the time i dont even get mine out, and nobody has said anything to me. I dont know many people that give a rats ass about "touching" their dice, and if i did meet someone who was, then i would immediatelly suspect foul play. We are grown adults, who gives a crap about weird little quirky habits you have gotten into? I dont want anyones life story, i just want to toss the dice, and if you demand that i dont touch yours then i think your either a cheat or your a childish little girl, and both dont look good.

mattyrm wrote:
i just want to toss the dice, and if you demand that i dont touch yours then i think your either a cheat or your a childish little girl, and both dont look good and will result in a punch in the face,

Fixed that fore you.

I personally don't like people using my dice. I have around 5-6 set's of 12 of larger blue dice with white pips. I loves me my blue dice. I buy and entire new pack if I lose one (hence 5-6 set's). And I don't like it when people touch my dice. I'm actually cool with people asking to test them if their loaded (though this isn't usually a problem as I seem to need re-rolls to even hit average most games). But I don't like it when people just try to pick up my dice without asking and I wouldn't be partial to using someone else's dice either. Now it's a who different bag if the tourney gives out their own block and says to use it for the weekend, then I'm cool with that

I thought this would be the perfect time to plug a song about rolling dice in 40k:

Dice Dice Baby

That's right - Vanilla Ice, reborn as Dashofpepper! =p

I'll let anyone in the world use my dice when they're playing against me... just don't ask me to use your tiny GW dice. I hate tiny dice... they feel so crappy and they're hard for me to read most of the time. I have my trusty Bunco dice and another set of dice that match my army... and they actually feel solid when you roll them!

I have gone out and purchased chessex dice in a color to match each army I play with... and those dice get stored in the cases that hold the armies, so I never forget to pack them. I use the chessex small plastic box they come in, remove 4 dice to put in a GW scatter.. so 32 dice.

Only one time did anyone make any comment beyond "OCD much?"

At the RTT I am part of running this summer, we may go the custom dice route .. any ideas on a place to look?

insaniak wrote:
On the tournament front, I would actually like to see tournaments issue dice specifically for use at that event, possibly as part of an 'entry pack' that is covered by your attendance fee. Throw in Dice, a summary sheet, set of templates and a whippy stick, and nobody can ever complain about forgetting the appropriate equipment.

Outstanding idea and one that should be used at all tourneys

porkuslime wrote:dice route .. any ideas on a place to look?

Chessex.
They have dice that they can customize the "1" or "6" side on with an image or logo of you're choice.
I've used them. They do a NICE job, they look GOOD, and the price isn't bad if you're ordering a bunch.


Eric

I realise that people have their superstitions, but a tournament is not the place for them

I'm immediately suspicious of anyone who has their own 'favoured' dice that they won't offer up for everyone to use.

In any given game, life is a lot easier if you both share the same dice pool. You don't have to worry about losing dice, or mixing dice up if they're similar colours. I'll happily offer up my dice pool for common use throughout the game.

Dez wrote:I feel weird (superstitious) about letting people touch my dice. I swear all my buddy Jeff need to do is LOOK at my dice and I roll 1's and 1's and 1's. I'd be happy to throw my dice in a bucket of water, but don't ask me to let someone else touch my dice!

I do love the idea of having custom dice for tournaments, and we might end up doing that with our club. That would up the price a bit, but who wouldn't love having custom tournament dice?

110%..I'm the same way, I get pissed when other people touch my dice, I'd be happier if you picked up my mini's but not the damn dice! It's bad dice mojo to have someone other then the owner touch them. My friends are becoming the same way...one friend puts his "bad dice" one that roll tons of ones in "dice prison" then only then he knows then can get a chance to redeem themselves he'll roll with them. I get pissy is you push my dice that roll to far for me to get back to me....I'll walk to get it.

IDK I'm nuts.....

If my opponent's dice are rolling above average I start using them. I've never had anyone refuse; if they did I'd summon a judge.

On the tournament front, I would actually like to see tournaments issue dice specifically for use at that event, possibly as part of an 'entry pack' that is covered by your attendance fee. Throw in Dice, a summary sheet, set of templates and a whippy stick, and nobody can ever complain about forgetting the appropriate equipment.

Outstanding idea and one that should be used at all tourneys

Except that the cost to purchase decent quality dice makes this a daunting expense for both a convention or a sponsor. We have considered it for a number of years but for AdeptiCon we would need to 1200+ bricks of dice this year. Now cheap dice, that you have no idea if they roll true or not .. that might be possible...but cheap dice are cheap for a reason.

Where is a good place to get completly fair dice?
Or ones that have printed symbols etc.?

muwhe wrote: Now cheap dice, that you have no idea if they roll true or not .. that might be possible...but cheap dice are cheap for a reason.

If everyone is using the same dice, ultimately it doesn't matter a great deal.

But folks are not playing the same army... if you purchase "cheap" dice that tend to roll a greater percentage of 1's or 6's .. that speaks to the effectiveness of things like armor saves, leadership tests, etc..

I just see event X provides blocks of dice for the event. After the event, group Y does a statistical analysis of the dice probability of the dice … roll standard cue for internet drama, black helicopters, secret societies, hidden agendas ..etc..

It certainly is an idea we have kicked around a number of times ... and if the right arrangement could be worked out it might become a reality.

muwhe wrote:Except that the cost to purchase decent quality dice makes this a daunting expense for both a convention or a sponsor. We have considered it for a number of years but for AdeptiCon we would need to 1200+ bricks of dice this year. Now cheap dice, that you have no idea if they roll true or not .. that might be possible...but cheap dice are cheap for a reason.

Did you contact anyone about it?
I'd imagine you could get them at cost if the right person took charge.
For example, someone contacts Chessex advertising department and informs them that they are in the market for 43,200 d6's (1200 bricks of 36 dice). They offer them free advertising on the Adepticon site, a free booth at the show, and promise to make sure that everyone knows that the dice come from Chessex. All Chessex has to do is provide the dice at cost.

Chessex is a HUGE company. People around the world use their dice. They don't hurt for sales.

I still would almost guarantee that an intelligent individual would jump at this opportunity. Free advertising. Literally.
They aren't out ONE CENT for it, since Adepticon is paying for the dice at cost. Add in the fact that it's one of the biggest gaming conventions in probably the World (in reputation, if not in size), and things just keep looking better for you.

How to pay for the dice AT COST? Inform the players that, as part of their registration, they will be provided with a brick of 36 dice. They will still need to bring a scatter die, but no other dice will be allowed to be used, except as markers for wounds and the like. Then, charge them exactly what it cost.

You'd be surprised how inexpensive this could be.


Eric

Eric,

We have contacted people about it at various times over the years and priced it out a number of times.

You spelled it out. Certainly becomes a much more doable thing if you are not talking about custom dice which was the context I was referencing. Custom dice add signficant cost. If we are just talking about providing a cube of colored solid dice in a couple different colors that is certainly workable.

-Hank

Oh, yeah.
Custom dice would be nice... but NO WAY would they be reasonable within the context of a tourney, regardless of size.
Not only that, but I've noticed that customized dice tend to be VERY skewed. You definitely don't want THAT associated with a tourney. LOL

"Oh. Yeah! I've heard of Adepticon. You're the guys who gave out the cheater dice that rolled a lot of sixes. I remember that."

Eric

I agree that for the tourny organizer supplying a brick of Chessex six siders and require they be used is probably the best cure for cheating. As an individual player your best bet is simply to ask to examine or even start using your opponent's dice if you strongly suspect that something is amiss. If your opponent hesitates or refuses, then you can pretty much garentee something is wrong. Refusing to allow your opponent to handle your dice is alot like running when the cops drive up. It's not technically against the rules but it's a very bad idea, there is never a legitimate reason for it, it's pretty much prima facia evidence that you are up to no good, and will pretty much garentee that you will looked at closer.

I have a few dice rolling pet peeves that I've developed in almost 30 years of table top wargaming and RPGs:

-I hate small hard to read dice. I've known some people who insist on using those stupidly tiny "mini-dice". I pretty much make it a practice of insisting that people use dice i can actually read. In my D&D games, mini dice only get used to mark hits and the like.
-I hate oddly shaped dice. Those "gem shaped" dice drive me nuts. They just never seem to roll right.
-Dice with oddball symbols instead of traditional numbers or pips on all side drive me nuts too. This one I was guilty of once. I thought it would be cool to get a set of dice with roman numerals to use when I played my 1st century AD Roman army. Well after the first game I realised that both my opponents and I were having trouble reading the results of dice rolls quickly so I never did that again.
-Finally it irritates me when someone uses an oddball way of rolling. For instance for some time it fashionable to use the so-called "control dice" method instead of a tradional d20 in some of the D&D games I played in. That is to say you rolled a d10 for the ones digit and a d6 for the tens. if the d6 came up 1-3 it was a zero and 4-6 meant it was a one. So for example a 4 on the d6 and a 9 on the d10 would be read as 19? Confused? So was I....especially when trying to confirm a dice roll with a glance. You don't roll "control dice" in my D&D game...sorry.

TR

I've never come across someone using loaded dice, although i have been witness to some fairly dodgy rolling techniques:

Rolling the dice over as large an area as possible making you have to scan a large portion of the table to see the results and pretty much guaranteeing that some of them will land out of view.

Rolling the dice next to another pile of dice often making it unclear which dice have been rolled and which ones were already sat 6-side-up on the table.

As for people using my dice, I'll never offer to start out with but if I do start having some outrageous luck i will sheepishly offer them to my opponent by way of recompense. Also, i don't like people just grabbing at my dice as i use some to keep track of faith points, wounds, vehicle damage etc.... It's very frustrating to suddenly have to have an argument about whether one of my Immolators was stunned or shaken the previous turn just because my opponent has grabbed the nearest available dice :S

i tend to roll my opponents dice without asking to roll saves from their wounds. Its usually easier to take the dice that already hit, then wounded, and are already seperated from their failures and just roll saves.

I came across one guy that had a "5" dice about 8 years back in a tournament, He always rolled it with some other dice, and it had 5's on all facings. That way he guaranteed at least 1 high roll for any set of rolls.

Was kinda odd. I didn't notice it until he took it out of his pile of dice to roll saves for his units and LD tests, then after a while I asked why he always took that one die out, he said I was confused.

I then without asking grabbed his successful wounding dice next round to roll my saves and immediately noticed he had one die that had all 5's on all sides. He was kicked from the tourney shortly after.

Since that day I tend to grab dice to roll saves.

I don't know... unless someone's doing a "fast grab" on his dice, I think you'd eventually notice a die with a 5 on top & 5's on the side.

Guy must've been a moron to use that die!

Eric

insaniak wrote:

nkelsch wrote:Personally I hate when people use 'special dice' for special' roles like armor saves for ICs and such.

They probably are not cheaters, but there are people who are who they probably learned it from a guy who had a tradition of lucky dice... So they are emulating cheating without actually knowing why.

That's being a little generous, I think...

Most people, particularly if they are using cheaper dice (which tend to be less well balanced) over time find that certain dice tend to roll high, and others to roll low. So the less scrupulous player will quite often set dice aside for certain rolls, depending on how those dice tend to fall.

A lot of them won't even think of it as cheating... the dice are 'technically' fine, as they're not specifically weighted. I'll admit to doing it myself in the past before I stopped and actually thought about it.

On the tournament front, I would actually like to see tournaments issue dice specifically for use at that event, possibly as part of an 'entry pack' that is covered by your attendance fee. Throw in Dice, a summary sheet, set of templates and a whippy stick, and nobody can ever complain about forgetting the appropriate equipment.

I did this exact same thing, Insaniak, when I played 40k in third edition. I had two specific dice that looked different than the rest, and I was convinced they rolled low, and I used them for lead checks.

Thinking about it, I decided this wasn't cool and stopped doing it... but I just wanted to add in that I didn't think of it as cheating, no one ever called me on it, but when I thought about it, I decided it was totally uncool. Those dice probably WERE off, even though I'd bought them, and I shouldn't have singled them out for that purpose...

I find myself doing that, too.
I have THREE green dice. I like to use them for LD checks and scatters. They roll completely average. There's no preponderance of high OR low rolls.
Every now and again, I realize I'm favoring them for certain things and I'll switch it up.
MY buddies know they roll average, but I won't always be playing them. I don't want anyone thinking "something" is up, so I try to NOT do it.

It's difficult, though, once you get in that habit.

Eric

At GenCon one year, i did the "scoop o dice" and came home with an assortment of dice.

I had been using them for a while and I just happened to catch that one of the d6's has two sides with 3. The 2 was missing from the die, so the sides were 1, 3, 3, 4, 5, and 6. Weird. Must have been a miss-casting.

I took it out the dice bag and set it asside so that I wouldn't use it again. I had used it a few times in D&D rolling healing rolls and such, but never noticed.

So, from my limited experience, I'd say that in casually playing a game, unless you are looking hard at your opponent's dice, you'd likely never notice if they had dice with multiple high numbers. Hell, I had been using MY OWN DICE for months and never noticed that one was miss-cast.

I'm strongly in the "Don't touch my dice or I break your hand," camp. Wanna use my generic D6's, fine. The tourney issue a big brick of dice, couldn't care less who touches them. Grab up any of my special ones that I've collected (looks good, matches the army, just strikes my fancy, whatever) and you'll get your hand back with a few more joints in it.

Wanna accuse me of cheating, fine. Call the judge and when he's done inspecting my dice and declaring you an idiot I'll accidentally whing one of my solid steel D20's at your lovingly painted termie to remind you that a good grasp of statistics and an understanding of how the human mind can find patterns in random noise would serve you well.

Tyyr wrote:I'm strongly in the "Don't touch my dice or I break your hand," camp. Wanna use my generic D6's, fine. The tourney issue a big brick of dice, couldn't care less who touches them. Grab up any of my special ones that I've collected (looks good, matches the army, just strikes my fancy, whatever) and you'll get your hand back with a few more joints in it.

Wanna accuse me of cheating, fine. Call the judge and when he's done inspecting my dice and declaring you an idiot I'll accidentally whing one of my solid steel D20's at your lovingly painted termie to remind you that a good grasp of statistics and an understanding of how the human mind can find patterns in random noise would serve you well.

Oh Internet Tough Guy, did you know that breaking someone's hand when they went for your dice would get you kicked out of the tourney (and probably arrested) regardless of whether or not you were actually cheating? And that if you don't warn, "Don't touch" your opponent has no way to reasonably expect you to flip out?

Tyyr wrote:
Wanna accuse me of cheating, fine. Call the judge and when he's done inspecting my dice and declaring you an idiot I'll accidentally whing one of my solid steel D20's at your lovingly painted termie to remind you that a good grasp of statistics and an understanding of how the human mind can find patterns in random noise would serve you well.

Also note that random noise is also a pattern, an unusually spread pattern I can say. A pattern that happens only in circumstances where the chances of all possible outcomes are equal or almost equal. Rolling 6, 6, 6, 6, 6 or any long string of identical numbers on a dice is highly improbable and closer inspection will be needed of a dice that could consistently roll such a string.
So yes I will call over a judge should I think your agressive behavoir is such to warrant that.

It is after all only a game and if you can't win fairly why play at all???

It's a good point, though... I've never actually had someone pick up and roll my dice. I've never seen anyone do it in a game, at least as far as I was aware. Around here, we use our own dice... almost everybody's a bit superstitious about their dice in gaming from what I've seen, and it's bad mojo for an opponent to handle them (just like it's totally uncool to handle my models without asking).

If someone asked me, I'd say I prefer they used their own dice... if they thought something was up, they can check mine- but seeing as how they're a standard GW brick (and the ones before that were standard chessex) there's not much to see...

I know this adds nothing to the conversation at hand, but really how badly do you need to win with your little toy soldiers in a game where everyone is supposed to be having fun? My vote is, if you really need to cheat to win, fine, cheat. Frankly guys who cheat with dice I am rarely going to run into. I figure people cheat more frequently f***ing up stats or special rules of armies.

I don't know a good way to deal with this. Issue I'd have is either
1.) He isn't cheating & will take offense to the accusation.
2.) He is & will fake offense to get me off his back.

I'd try to explain as politely as possible I think his dice may have been tampered with and ask him to switch them or use some of mine. If he makes an over dramatic response or it continues I'd request a TO.

Call me Naive, but I like to think people don't want to win so bad they use loaded dice, it just seems ridiculous.

I know it happens of course, but I don't think I'd ever accuse someone of it.. it's a game, I mean it's supposed to be fun, and that is certainly ruining someone else's fun.

I'd prefer to take my own dice to a tournament, but If they supplied their own, it would be fine as well.

Tyyr wrote:
Wanna accuse me of cheating, fine. Call the judge and when he's done inspecting my dice and declaring you an idiot I'll accidentally whing one of my solid steel D20's at your lovingly painted termie to remind you that a good grasp of statistics and an understanding of how the human mind can find patterns in random noise would serve you well.

O.K. I'll call the TO back & accuse you of whipping a solid steel d20 at one of my terminators & have you kicked out anyway as:

1.) You have no need for a d20 to even be in your hand during game (Before maybe to mark deployment zone)
2.) You can't claim "Accidental" because if it had enough force to break one of my terminators it clearly wasn't an accident. Especially because if it was whipped chances are it is landing no where close to what you could call an "accidental" drop.

So a good grasp of physics and an understanding of how to keep your temper would serve you well.

I have a set of loaded dice. Three sets actually....one set rolls 4's, 5's and 6's, one set rolls 1's, 2's, and 3's. Th last set are normal dice. They are chessex sized dice, black with white pips. If you looked at them on the table they look normal, no weird lines or anything. If you roll them and watch, you can sometimes see a few roll weird, but if you roll a large group, you can't tell.

I bought them off a guy on Ebay, who said he used thrm to win a couple fantasy RTT's in New Jersey. This is the same guy who, through shifty dealings, made GW stop selling bitz by the weight at Gamesday.

If I knew where they were, I'd take a pic of them and post them. I bought them because at the time I was working in a FLGS running warhammer, and I wanted to be able to spot loaded dice, and be able to prove it. I usually took them with me to a tourney and I'd show them to people so they would know what to look for, but I have no clue where they got to....


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Oh, and I refuse to use small dice. I dislocated my pinky rock climbing years ago, and I have a hard time scooping up the small dice....

You have no clue where the dice got to? (You said "they" so it's hard to tell...) Maybe someone's using them to win their own RTT's now

I hate cheaters - as can be expected.

I also hate being accused of cheating.

Personally I own 36 red Chessex dice, 16 FoW Soviet dice, and about 20 AT-43 Red Blok dice . . . and if anyone accuses me of believing communism is a great idea . . . well you may well be right lol

On square-edged dice . . . it has been proven that when using 2 or 3 dice, such as after wound allocation, or doing Ld checks. You can easily pre-determine the roll of the dice by how you put the dice in your hand, and how you roll them. I would say they should be banned at tournaments for this reason. If anyone is unsure about this, just look it up on Youtube. It gets to a point, where the roller can know what side of the die is facing where just by how they feel in his hand - where the pips are. It's a bit silly really, but I know a couple of mates who can do it, it's amazing to watch.

Also when rolling scatter dice, if you roll it a certain way you can increase the probability of rolling a hit to around 50%

Sadly these methods are hard to spot in a tournament, so the best way to stop it is ban casino-style square edged dice. And hope the scatter dice roller isn't using loads of artillery or deep strike =/

Oshova

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:Oh Internet Tough Guy, did you know that breaking someone's hand when they went for your dice would get you kicked out of the tourney (and probably arrested) regardless of whether or not you were actually cheating? And that if you don't warn, "Don't touch" your opponent has no way to reasonably expect you to flip out?

The sonic boom over your head was the point making a flyby. Hyperbole isn't your strong suit is it?

Besides, how were you raised that grabbing someone else's things without permission is just fine?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shas'O Dorian wrote:O.K. I'll call the TO back & accuse you of whipping a solid steel d20 at one of my terminators & have you kicked out anyway as:

1.) You have no need for a d20 to even be in your hand during game (Before maybe to mark deployment zone)
2.) You can't claim "Accidental" because if it had enough force to break one of my terminators it clearly wasn't an accident. Especially because if it was whipped chances are it is landing no where close to what you could call an "accidental" drop.

So a good grasp of physics and an understanding of how to keep your temper would serve you well.

By all means, don't let obvious sarcasm get in the way of you storming the moral high ground.

Protip: if nobody finds your sarcasm funny
its not funny

Ahh the spirit and camaraderie of tourney play...

Thing is, I've seen such massive runs of lucky by people who I KNOW are not using loaded dice, that it'd take something really suspicious for me to accuse someone at a tourney. After all, if I know that it can happen on its own, how can I possibly attribute ridiculously good luck to loaded dice?

On the whole use my dice/not use my dice thing, I could care less. If someone wants to use my dice for EVERYTHING, I think I'd be a little pissed off, but if they need some extras for something (miasma wounds against my orks mobz come to mind), or just want to use mine because they're handy, they are more than welcome to. Just like I offer people the use of my GF9 Tac template if they seem in need, I'll offer my dice. That's part of being a good sportsman, I think.

LOL why cant I ever find people to play like Tyyr, it would be worth double the price of admission to kick they gak out of him...

PS. I wouldnt worried about getting kicked out, I am going to lose most of my games anyway.

I say to thee dead thread... RISE, RISE!!!!

I played a friendly pick up game once with a guy who was my team mate and insisted, upon this important roll, I roll his dice. Strangly enough..they wobbled upon the table and just didn't feel right. Needless to say I never played with him again.

Matthias wrote:We have this simple rule in our Code of Conduct:

Dice: AdeptiCon does not require the use any specific type of dice, however your dice must ALWAYS be made available to your opponent to use if they so desire. AdeptiCon reserves the right to remove any dice showing excessive wear, obvious tampering or other questionable deformities.

I think this is a great policy.

insaniak wrote:Most people, particularly if they are using cheaper dice (which tend to be less well balanced) over time find that certain dice tend to roll high, and others to roll low. So the less scrupulous player will quite often set dice aside for certain rolls, depending on how those dice tend to fall.

A lot of them won't even think of it as cheating... the dice are 'technically' fine, as they're not specifically weighted. I'll admit to doing it myself in the past before I stopped and actually thought about it.

I did this in high school, but later on had the same realization- i.e., stopped to think about it, realized it wasn't kosher, and never did it again.

I have encountered players who use only certain dice for certain rolls, and agree with those who have posted that it is very close to "cheating".

At a major event, either sharing dice, or having people use dice specifically made for the event are great strategies. It would also help stop the phenomenon of using the Large casino dice, or worse, "bone" dice (with raised edges, very easy to manipulate the roll of).


Edit: As pointed out above, it looks like this thread had been a month old 4 posts ago... I wouldn't be offended it if were locked, now that I've noticed that

I would be horribly offended should a lock come down upon it. This thread needs to continue well on into the year as it is full of vital information! I demand a sticky!

Yea, just share Dice if the person complains and doesn't want to, ask them why. Don't be afraid to question.

I have 2 sets of dice One 10 set to roll to hit and one 40 set to roll for damage. I've played alot of Daemonettes and the 10 set dice are larger to see with. the smaller 40 dice set is good to roll the damage in a fast manner since this is timed play.

In Tourny play I have always let my opponent use my dice if they wish to do so and also will ask of the same with the other player.

I have never faced someone who i felt was using loaded dice. What i have seen that bothers me is when people dont shake and roll the dice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7ufOkRoShk
This guy is what i am talking about. One person i know rolls the dice a very specific way. He dosnt shake them up wildly if he has rolled something desirable. I dont think he is cheating knowingly but it still really bothers me that dosnt really shake the dice up when he rolls.
Back on topic though i have to say that i use my foes successful to wound dice for all of my armor saves. It speeds up the game considerably not having to always count out dice and if your foe is using loaded dice you will at least benefit from them on your armor saves.

An issue I find is that say I roll 40 dice and hit with X, then I roll and wound wiht Y. By that stage my opponent is using the 'good' dice from the set and more likely to make his saves.

Solution : new dice at each stage or better dice?

All I know is that the GW dice cubes are well dodgy.

I hate other people using my dice.
Sorry, can't stand it.
In tourneys I use a big bag of casino dice.
Perfectly square, no rounded edges, filled in dots, and transparent.
Obviously not weighted, but no-one else is using them.

Providing dice can be tricky for a tournament.
I use an Ork army, It happens that I need over 100 dice for some assaults.
SM players can get away with 20-30.
You'd need thousands of dice.

Casino dice are made to only roll true when tossed across a table and hit off a wall. Do you do this with your casino dice? If not, you are influencing their rolls.

One thing about statistics, true random numbers (or as close as we can approximate using computers) almost always seem to people as if they are not random, while fake random numbers (those created by people) always have too few of the same numbers in a row statistically speaking.

Fearspect wrote:

whalemusic360 wrote:If you won't let other people touch your dice and won't use other dice, get over it or play a game that doesn't require human interaction. I hear solitaire is all the rage.

This.

I don't like people I don't really know handling my dice or models, and I never handle somebody else's out of respect. I don't feel that makes me socially awkward. I think that's a basic form of respect most people grow up with. You don't mess with other people's stuff.

I would happily pay an extra 5-10 dollars for tournament supplied dice. I don't feel that dice malfeasance is very widespread though, so I see little point. Last weekend I played in a tournament where an ork player who shot the pants off of my army. Literally crippled me in two turns. He was on fire. The thought he was cheating never crossed my mind. I know I have had runs with really hot or really cold dice; so I'm sure everyone else does as well.

I used to carry a block of Chessex dice (12mm) and a few larger dice (16mm) to use on leadership tests. They were always just randomly grabbed out of another block, but I preferred them because they were easy to read and stood out from the rest. If I rolled the larger dice, I knew I was rolling leadership.

I never had anyone ask about it, nor did they ever ask to use my dice (which wouldn't have been a problem).

One day I showed up at a tournament and the TO had provided a new Chessex block for everyone to use. I was later informed that this was done because the TO suspected me of using loaded dice on my leadership rolls.

If you suspect someone of cheating, ask them to use their dice, or point out to them that they should use the same dice for every roll. Passive aggressive like that is uncalled for.

I personally don't mind if others touch my dice in 40k and prefer to just hand my opponent the dice i hit with so he can quickly roll them to determine saves - but I also understand the superstitious feeling of having others touch your dice (which is how I feel about my d20's in dnd)... I can imagine the topic of questioning if your opponents die are loaded or not would be a touchy one, but i also see it as being easily gotten over. If someone accused me of having loaded dice and then we went through the process of testing it out, I wouldn't hold it against the other person, as cheaters really are out there in the world.

Really though, the easiest fix is to all just use the same dice.

Please check the dates in a thread before posting in it.

Thanks!