I recently aquired 3 wraithlords and have been using them in various 1500point games

They are proof against bolters
Draw away all Heavy fire
Survive all heavy fire
and then kick the face off of anything that survived the Brightlances

is there a way to kill them?

Wraithlords are HARDLY unstoppable.

You kill them the same as any other MC - rate of fire.

They aren't going to do too well in close combat against a big mob of Orks (Nob's Klaw will eat them in about two turns) or a bunch of little Poisoned (4+) 'Nids.

In fact, anything Poisoned will take them down in short order.

And if you are using 3 of them, you aren't using things like Falcons or Fire Prisms, both of which are probably better options.

They're also slow and easy to mitigate until late game.

Yeah i really don't see wraithlords as much of a threat. Its like taking dreadnoughts and assuming their unstoppble.

MinionOfDaCube wrote:I recently aquired 3 wraithlords and have been using them in various 1500point games

They are proof against bolters
Draw away all Heavy fire
Survive all heavy fire
and then kick the face off of anything that survived the Brightlances

is there a way to kill them?

I'm a fellow Eldar player, friend, and I can tell you that yes, there are plenty of ways to kill them. So many, in fact, that I hardly field them. Especially when, for 50 more points I could get a full unit of Reapers or, a few more still I could get a Prism or a Falcon.

Long Fangs with Lascannons. 3's to hit. 3's to wound. If they get you with 3 of the 5 they're shooting, you're dead.

Anything with rending. Ever gotten into with daemonettes? Don't.

Lots of firepower - Lootas anyone?

The list goes on and on. Not only that, but they can limit the movement of your farseer if you're afraid to get them away from him.

I dunno, they're tricky and without an invulnerable and almost never getting cover, they're easy targets.

They are just an annoyance at most..which is pretty much everything in the Eldar army list

I usually use plasma guns...

Ian Sturrock wrote:I usually use plasma guns...

Plasma. The great equalizer. Never leave home without it.

Las cannons and plasma or the good old powerfist kill wraith lords pretty well.

If you're facing competent opponents with competent army lists, wraithlords are overcosted, underprotected, and have way too little killing ability. About the best you can hope for is to use them to tarpit units that don't have a power fist.

They're great against people who are new, i.e. don't know how to make a competent list/never seen T8 before.

Not particularly fun though, when it rolls through their whole army and they have nothing that can harm it.

Against competent forces, its meh (I do tend to prioritize them though, but they die pretty fast).

Army lists with 15+ missile launchers or lascannons just kinda scoff at Wraith Lords.

sourclams wrote:Army lists with 15+ missile launchers or lascannons just kinda scoff at Wraith Lords.

Man, talk about power gamers...

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:

sourclams wrote:Army lists with 15+ missile launchers or lascannons just kinda scoff at Wraith Lords.

Man, talk about power gamers...

Why? A Guard army can easily fit that number of lascannon in and still have plenty of points let over for anti-infantry work.

SW are the new Kings of Missile.

Rather than saying "man, those guys are power gamers" why not just increase your game to match theirs?

willydstyle wrote:

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:

sourclams wrote:Army lists with 15+ missile launchers or lascannons just kinda scoff at Wraith Lords.

Man, talk about power gamers...

Why? A Guard army can easily fit that number of lascannon in and still have plenty of points let over for anti-infantry work.

SW are the new Kings of Missile.

Rather than saying "man, those guys are power gamers" why not just increase your game to match theirs?

Because that would require effort. Rather than pick up their game, they will penalize other peeps, probably with some sort of comp/sports scores...

Roflmouse.

Yes, that's right.

Roflmouse.

Ratlings eat wraithlords for breakfast. 10 point snipers FTW!

Infiltrate so they have LOS, and bang, dead Wraithlord.

So long as you get the charge then a mob of sluggaz with hidden PK works wonders, especially if they fail the wraithsight roll just before they were about to charge you!

My Crimson Fist army with Pedro + 30 Sternguard Veterans would eat those wraithlords (and wraithgaurd) for breakfast. Hellfire rounds ftw.

I play a Iyanden themed list.

I never leave home without 3 wraithlords, and guess what? Never lost a single game so far, worst game so far ended in a draw (mind you that was against lolganwing + 10 missile launchers).
And even in that game they ended up only killing 1 wraithlord.
This is a footslogging iyanden army... how can it be :O according to the interwebs my list is the sux :O

So I wouldn't say "LOL THEY ARE POO WITHOUT INVUL SAVE LOL"

They can actually be really good if you know how to play correctly with them.
Sure, they are huge and can have a hard time getting cover. But you just gotto play it correctly, which depends on what you're facing and how the terrain is placed on the table.
If you play tables without the amount of terrain recommended in the rulebook, yeah you'll get smoked by missile launchers.

And about power fists killing them fast? Hardly.... WS:4 T:8, generic MEQ with power fists needs 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound. Thats 0.25 wounds per attack in general, 4 attacks should get one wound.
I wouldn't say they crumble against fists, oh and in my list theres most of the time something to back them up, meaning if they do decide using their high power attacks on him, they'll get rended by harlequins.

You just need to know their limits and weaknesses. If you do get cover and in some way used fortune on them, they can take that 15 missile launcher in the face and laugh at it.
In all my games no ones ever managed to kill all 3.

TL;DR : They are expencive and can die easily, but if you play them right your enemy will struggle to kill all 3. Oh and footslogging wins all


Automatically Appended Next Post:

eNvY wrote:My Crimson Fist army with Pedro + 30 Sternguard Veterans would eat those wraithlords (and wraithgaurd) for breakfast. Hellfire rounds ftw.

And that is totally waaaay more than he paid for his wraithlords... OMFG NERF STERNGUARD & PEDRO?

SuperioR wrote:I play a Iyanden themed list.

I never leave home without 3 wraithlords, and guess what? Never lost a single game so far, worst game so far ended in a draw (mind you that was against lolganwing + 10 missile launchers).
And even in that game they ended up only killing 1 wraithlord.
This is a footslogging iyanden army... how can it be :O according to the interwebs my list is the sux :O

So I wouldn't say "LOL THEY ARE POO WITHOUT INVUL SAVE LOL"

They can actually be really good if you know how to play correctly with them.
Sure, they are huge and can have a hard time getting cover. But you just gotto play it correctly, which depends on what you're facing and how the terrain is placed on the table.
If you play tables without the amount of terrain recommended in the rulebook, yeah you'll get smoked by missile launchers.

And about power fists killing them fast? Hardly.... WS:4 T:8, generic MEQ with power fists needs 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound. Thats 0.25 wounds per attack in general, 4 attacks should get one wound.
I wouldn't say they crumble against fists, oh and in my list theres most of the time something to back them up, meaning if they do decide using their high power attacks on him, they'll get rended by harlequins.

You just need to know their limits and weaknesses. If you do get cover and in some way used fortune on them, they can take that 15 missile launcher in the face and laugh at it.
In all my games no ones ever managed to kill all 3.

TL;DR : They are expencive and can die easily, but if you play them right your enemy will struggle to kill all 3. Oh and footslogging wins all


Automatically Appended Next Post:

eNvY wrote:My Crimson Fist army with Pedro + 30 Sternguard Veterans would eat those wraithlords (and wraithgaurd) for breakfast. Hellfire rounds ftw.

And that is totally waaaay more than he paid for his wraithlords... OMFG NERF STERNGUARD & PEDRO?

ZOMG OP!!!!!

This is true, my Sternguard Squads come in at ~380 a piece (two heavy weapons, some combis, power fist, razorback with or without TL-LC) and Pedro ain't true.

If I played Eldar I wouldn't leave home without at least two of them. The only reason I wouldn't take three is because I really like War Walkers as well.

If you can come up with a way to consitantly give them a cover-save then, perhaps, they could be awesome.

Only way of doing this, As I see it, is using a squad of harlequins (whom are all quite tall/jumpy) or the chunky wraithguard and mount a stalking lower profile wraithlord.

I have my very own wraithlord and you can mount its wraithbone shoulder spines inverted so that they point backwards, looks quite nice. Now if you take some greenstuff (Unsure if this is illegal, especially considering some of the other naturally opportune position creatures out there) and chop off/reposition its legs to a crouching gait.

Or of course you could field Eldred + Wraithguard/Warlocks along with two Wraithlords, the Avatar and a squad of 3 War Walkers. Fortune the bodyguard squad/Avatar, the War Walkers and everything gets a 3/4+ save. Sorry, to elaborate; Wraithguard/Warlocks (if tall enough) lead the way with the Warwalkes behind (the idea being they are 50% covered) for the cover-save. Then you have the Wraithlords chilling out behind them for their own cover save. Quite a blocky point dense formation, but it may be your best bet to use them and survive/kill stuff.

Razerous wrote:If you can come up with a way to consitantly give them a cover-save then, perhaps, they could be awesome.

I got the forgeworld avatar model, its nice and tall... But I don't always use him, not even half of the time.
I wouldn't go making him crouching as thats just not in the spirit of my game Really, imo its modelling for advantage...

Also, wanted to add... I wouldn't use 1 or 2, they need to get overrun by high ws or in other ways hard to kill targets (harlequins with veil for example).
Killing 1,2 might be doable, but 3 (atleast if in cover) requires a whole lot of high str weapons to get rid off.

I don't know, my first game using a Vendetta, killed a Wraithlord first turn...was pretty demoralizing.

My opponent thought he had cover, but with the elevation of the Vendetta, it meant TL BS3 and str 9, some decent rolling and down goes an anchor.

Though one game doesn't say much. The ease of their destruction (being only 3 wounds) is something I've seen often in other games.

Having an Avatar is really good in terms of MC saturation, but in general the WL are tasked with shooting rather than combat. The low number of attacks is the real killer to that role for the WL, sword or not.

Wraithlordas are tough adn fairly impressive. As has been stated, poisoned weapons will muller them and a decent PowerFist attack will knock them out pretty quickly too.

Razerous wrote:
Or of course you could field Eldred + Wraithguard/Warlocks along with two Wraithlords, the Avatar and a squad of 3 War Walkers. Fortune the bodyguard squad/Avatar, the War Walkers and everything gets a 3/4+ save. Sorry, to elaborate; Wraithguard/Warlocks (if tall enough) lead the way with the Warwalkes behind (the idea being they are 50% covered) for the cover-save. Then you have the Wraithlords chilling out behind them for their own cover save. Quite a blocky point dense formation, but it may be your best bet to use them and survive/kill stuff.

And all that just to work in wraithlords.

Nail on the head, puma713...

If you start working your entire list purely to keep one or two models alive - you lose out in other areas. And if your opponent simply ignores your Wraithlords and out-manouvers you - as any smart player would do once they've worked out your game plan/gambit - you're brown bread.

As far as I can tell - there is no one single unstoppable mega unit in 40K*. It's a grand game of scissors, paper stone where every unit has a weakness...**

*If I'm wrong and there is, then see **

**Vortex grenades

SuperioR wrote:I play a Iyanden themed list.

I never leave home without 3 wraithlords, and guess what? Never lost a single game so far, worst game so far ended in a draw (mind you that was against lolganwing + 10 missile launchers).
And even in that game they ended up only killing 1 wraithlord.
This is a footslogging iyanden army... how can it be :O according to the interwebs my list is the sux :O

So I wouldn't say "LOL THEY ARE POO WITHOUT INVUL SAVE LOL"

They can actually be really good if you know how to play correctly with them.
Sure, they are huge and can have a hard time getting cover. But you just gotto play it correctly, which depends on what you're facing and how the terrain is placed on the table.
If you play tables without the amount of terrain recommended in the rulebook, yeah you'll get smoked by missile launchers.

And about power fists killing them fast? Hardly.... WS:4 T:8, generic MEQ with power fists needs 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound. Thats 0.25 wounds per attack in general, 4 attacks should get one wound.
I wouldn't say they crumble against fists, oh and in my list theres most of the time something to back them up, meaning if they do decide using their high power attacks on him, they'll get rended by harlequins.

You just need to know their limits and weaknesses. If you do get cover and in some way used fortune on them, they can take that 15 missile launcher in the face and laugh at it.
In all my games no ones ever managed to kill all 3.

TL;DR : They are expencive and can die easily, but if you play them right your enemy will struggle to kill all 3. Oh and footslogging wins all


Automatically Appended Next Post:

eNvY wrote:My Crimson Fist army with Pedro + 30 Sternguard Veterans would eat those wraithlords (and wraithgaurd) for breakfast. Hellfire rounds ftw.

And that is totally waaaay more than he paid for his wraithlords... OMFG NERF STERNGUARD & PEDRO?

Just makes me think you don't face good players with good armies.

My Chaos list is pretty crappy and I beat a list just like that one the other day, run by one of the best players I know. I've never seen him fail to take Best General at any tournament he goes to.

willydstyle wrote:Just makes me think you don't face good players with good armies.

Yeah you're right, all my friends (and other random guys at the club) are slow, why couldn't I see this earlier...
Oh and I must be too since I use a footslogging list. I mean seriously, who uses footslogging lists nowadays?!
Heeey, maybe thats why I didn't realize it...

Thanks for enlightening me!

Seriously, most 40k players, and this includes tournament players, really aren't that good. They don't have a solid enough grasp on the rules to have a solid grasp on tactics.

Wraithlords rip apart Necrons.
For 100 pts (Wraithsword) + 1 Fortune a turn, they can be almost indestructible vs. any Necron list without 2 squadrons of heavy destroyers.
    - and forcing the expenditure of 330pts to mitigate 200pts of material is already putting the eldar player in a control position.
I dread seeing two of those things closing in on my lines.

Meh, railguns have always taken them down for me.

Play against my Dark eldar, I will kill all three Wraithlords and all your transports turn 1.

At 1500 pts I field 17 Lances and 9 Plasma cannons.


Oh did I mention we also carry a good amount of poison.

Belphegor wrote:Wraithlords rip apart Necrons.
For 100 pts (Wraithsword) + 1 Fortune a turn, they can be almost indestructible vs. any Necron list without 2 squadrons of heavy destroyers.
    - and forcing the expenditure of 330pts to mitigate 200pts of material is already putting the eldar player in a control position.
I dread seeing two of those things closing in on my lines.

Don't all Gauss weapons wound on 6, regardless of relative toughness?

puma713 wrote:

Belphegor wrote:Wraithlords rip apart Necrons.
For 100 pts (Wraithsword) + 1 Fortune a turn, they can be almost indestructible vs. any Necron list without 2 squadrons of heavy destroyers.
    - and forcing the expenditure of 330pts to mitigate 200pts of material is already putting the eldar player in a control position.
I dread seeing two of those things closing in on my lines.

Don't all Gauss weapons wound on 6, regardless of relative toughness?

Yes.. and any worthy amount of gauss related shooting should happily bring it down.

Well, let's be reasonable here. Any infantry-based shooting is going to need 6s to wound. A squad of 10 warriors rapid firing is going to average about 2 wounds, and a Wraith Lord will save most of the time on a 3+.

Can Warriors/Immortals wound Wraith Lords with shooting? Yes, absolutely, but it takes a lot of shots to do it.

SuperioR wrote:I play a Iyanden themed list.

I never leave home without 3 wraithlords, and guess what? Never lost a single game so far, worst game so far ended in a draw (mind you that was against lolganwing + 10 missile launchers).
And even in that game they ended up only killing 1 wraithlord.
This is a footslogging iyanden army... how can it be :O according to the interwebs my list is the sux :O

So I wouldn't say "LOL THEY ARE POO WITHOUT INVUL SAVE LOL"

They can actually be really good if you know how to play correctly with them.
Sure, they are huge and can have a hard time getting cover. But you just gotto play it correctly, which depends on what you're facing and how the terrain is placed on the table.
If you play tables without the amount of terrain recommended in the rulebook, yeah you'll get smoked by missile launchers.

And about power fists killing them fast? Hardly.... WS:4 T:8, generic MEQ with power fists needs 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound. Thats 0.25 wounds per attack in general, 4 attacks should get one wound.
I wouldn't say they crumble against fists, oh and in my list theres most of the time something to back them up, meaning if they do decide using their high power attacks on him, they'll get rended by harlequins.

You just need to know their limits and weaknesses. If you do get cover and in some way used fortune on them, they can take that 15 missile launcher in the face and laugh at it.
In all my games no ones ever managed to kill all 3.

TL;DR : They are expencive and can die easily, but if you play them right your enemy will struggle to kill all 3. Oh and footslogging wins all

Without seeing the list and point levels, I can't tell you if it is 'suxxors' or not. Getting cover saves for wraith lords in a foot slogging list will be very, very difficult at best.

The only foot slogging eldar list I ever saw do decently, was 2 x 1 farseer w/10 warlocks. Even that was not total 'foot slogging' unless you call 9 war walkers 'foot slogging'.

Without cover, a wraith lord would have died in 1 turn of shooting from those 10 ml's.

Ratlings eat wraithlords for breakfast. 10 point snipers FTW!

Infiltrate so they have LOS, and bang, dead Wraithlord.

QFT. Frodo and his ruffians single handedly changed the meta-game at my LGS. Wraithlords were the staple of every eldar army until Samwise showed up and brought them down! One of the kids there was complaining that ratlings were too good because space marine scouts were only BS3. I calmly asked him if he saw any space marine scouts at the crack of Mount Doom

Volkov wrote:

Ratlings eat wraithlords for breakfast. 10 point snipers FTW!

Infiltrate so they have LOS, and bang, dead Wraithlord.

QFT. Frodo and his ruffians single handedly changed the meta-game at my LGS. Wraithlords were the staple of every eldar army until Samwise showed up and brought them down! One of the kids there was complaining that ratlings were too good because space marine scouts were only BS3. I calmly asked him if he saw any space marine scouts at the crack of Mount Doom

Rofl!

Volkov wrote:

Ratlings eat wraithlords for breakfast. 10 point snipers FTW!

Infiltrate so they have LOS, and bang, dead Wraithlord.

QFT. Frodo and his ruffians single handedly changed the meta-game at my LGS. Wraithlords were the staple of every eldar army until Samwise showed up and brought them down! One of the kids there was complaining that ratlings were too good because space marine scouts were only BS3. I calmly asked him if he saw any space marine scouts at the crack of Mount Doom

Add in a PBS and a Ratling Sniper unit pays for itself tenfold as it keeps units out of the game for two turns or more.

Snipers in general are all quite effective against Wraithlords. Powerclaws also do the trick.

Wraithlord on the other hand, are not exactly useless units, they have their role. A 10- man squad of ratlings (they are T2/ Ld6, not exactly unbreakable at range), will average 0-2 wounds per turn. It is annoying to point expensive eldar weapons at such cheap units, but with the opportunity to shoot first, blast the crap out of the hobbits. If you have to go second, you might consider sticking your WL in reserves.

I worry a lot more about armies with large amounts of high strength weaponry. Missiles will wreck WL face, along with any other high AP weaponry. Large blast templates can make your WL a damage conduit, for the rest of your army. In other words, poor formations, make for unhappy Eldar.

Hiding WL is nigh impossible, and getting cover is just as difficult. Expect them to either soak up shots (which they actually do pretty well, 3 T8 wounds is not half bad), or die trying.

I've found that when taking them along with Wave Serpents, War Walkers, Fire Prisms and/or an Avatar it suddenly becomes a much harder choice for your opponent as to where to aim their big guns.

Well.....

If they take War Walkers then that's a max of 2 WLs.
If they take Fire PrismS then that's only 1 WL.
If they take WW and FPs then that's 1 WL.

Anyway, it's not that hard really.
Str 7-8 go at the Wave Serpents.
Str 5-6 go at the WW.
Avatar will most likely be Fortuned, so I'll just out run it as he is no faster than infantry.
Str 8-10 (after Prisms are stun/shaken at the least) at WLs.

Target saturation is good when the units in question overlap in tersm of what is going at them, but with respect to the list of units above, it's not that hard to see where what is going.

In addition, it really depends on what the WLs are carrying as weapons.
If it's just a sword then it's on my 'ignore til I have to' list.
If it's one ranged weapon, it falls behind after stun/shaking Serpents.
If it's two ranged weapons, if alls behind after stun/shacking Fire Prisms.
Etc.

Mr. Mayhem wrote:I've found that when taking them along with Wave Serpents, War Walkers, Fire Prisms and/or an Avatar it suddenly becomes a much harder choice for your opponent as to where to aim their big guns.

In a 1500 point game I've got an average of 4 railguns available (hammerhead and broadside unit with target lock) any one of which is more than capable of bringing down any tank/walker in the game. Then my crisis suits have fusion blasters and are mobile enough to get around terrain with JSJ...

All in all, Eldar is the only army I've ever had any luck against with my Tau.

The effectiveness of a unit has nothing to do with what parts of your army list are able to take it down. Any idiot can read off the high-strength guns in his army lists and sit back with a smug expression on their face. I especially enjoyed reading about the guy who bought 30 Sternguard for a cheesy list. Better hope that roughly $300 of the same 5 models doesn't get nerfed in the next edition.

To answer your question OP, the Wraithlord is very good at what it does. Its tough, draws attention, and makes for a great firing platform. It costs a little extra but it can take a wound and still shoot 2 heavy weapons. The two flamers it can take are also awesome because few people remember that the little guns on the huge model's wrists are flame templates.

You have to know the wraithlords weaknesses and know how to minimise them. Sure its hard to hide the big guys, but even if it makes the opponent move all his Hammerheads closer to get shots off the wraithlord is already forcing the opponent to react. As so many posters have clearly demonstrated, if you let them have their way your wraithlord will die quickly.

With 3 in your list you should be able to do stuff like force splitting fire, sacrifice one to get to the enemy, or even secrifice all so that the rest of your army hits home. At 140pts for a heavy-weaponed out Wraithlord your going to still have lots of other units to finish the job. Thanks for big distractions you'll actually get to shoot with Guardian Defenders or get your Banshees into combat unscathed.

Thanks for big distractions you'll actually get to shoot with Guardian Defenders or get your Banshees into combat unscathed.

Big distractions that attract high str. weaponry. Now maybe you meant Guadians and Banshees in tranpsorts, but as it looks now... str 4-6 multiple shot weapons will most likely not be going for the WL and will go for the exposed infantry... to think otherwise would be a bit 'off' IMO.

powerclaw wrote:The effectiveness of a unit has nothing to do with what parts of your army list are able to take it down. Any idiot can read off the high-strength guns in his army lists and sit back with a smug expression on their face. I especially enjoyed reading about the guy who bought 30 Sternguard for a cheesy list. Better hope that roughly $300 of the same 5 models doesn't get nerfed in the next edition.

To answer your question OP, the Wraithlord is very good at what it does. Its tough, draws attention, and makes for a great firing platform. It costs a little extra but it can take a wound and still shoot 2 heavy weapons. The two flamers it can take are also awesome because few people remember that the little guns on the huge model's wrists are flame templates.

You have to know the wraithlords weaknesses and know how to minimise them. Sure its hard to hide the big guys, but even if it makes the opponent move all his Hammerheads closer to get shots off the wraithlord is already forcing the opponent to react. As so many posters have clearly demonstrated, if you let them have their way your wraithlord will die quickly.

With 3 in your list you should be able to do stuff like force splitting fire, sacrifice one to get to the enemy, or even secrifice all so that the rest of your army hits home. At 140pts for a heavy-weaponed out Wraithlord your going to still have lots of other units to finish the job. Thanks for big distractions you'll actually get to shoot with Guardian Defenders or get your Banshees into combat unscathed.

And any idiot can have an opinion, apparently.

The OP was regarding a specific unit in an army not an overall army list or overall strategy so I fail to see your point in your first paragraph. As I stated, my personal experience playing against eldar is that my Tau do well against them and did so without throwing pejoratives about.

I know the OP wasn't asking for strategy but this is "40K Tactics". I don't see how "Well my list has 10 missle launchers!" is helpful.

In terms of splitting fire, I didn't mean Wave Serpents specifically but they are awesome. If you're only shooting at the infantry with strength 3-6 (I find S7 shots usually get thrown at Wraithlords as well since most people don't bring enough S8 and up to bear on the Wraithlords) then at 24"+ their options are pretty slim. Few lists have stuff like S6 spam or tons of heavy bolters (IG aside or Eldar themselves aside).

Your points is well made though, there is still going to have to be some other cover-hugging and stuff going on. The Wraithlords also dissuade direct assault if used correctly. This is a big boon to a footslogging list. Since Prisms are a better choice then 'Lords in Mech lists I'm going to assume its for a slogging list.

@agnosto: I'm sorry you took the pejorative personally, I meant it as a comment of the usefulness of the responses. In effect the thread looks like:

OP: "Are Wraithlords unkillable?"
Responders: "My Tau do well against Eldar."

Yes I was making assumptions about what the OP really wanted to know but if you take the thread completely at face value then the only response necessary is:

OP: "Are Wraithlords unkillable?"
Responders: "No. No they are not."

Not as interesting.

@ Powerclaw,
Point taken.

As far as killing Wraithlords (or any MC-like unit). The thing that makes it seem unkillable is the high toughness and immunity to most standard troop weapons. IG lasguns don't wound it and neither would bolters.

I guess it's different from a Tau perspective because our basic troop weapons would still wound on a "6" not to mention the plethora ("would you say I have a plethora?") of high strength, low AP weapons on battlesuits.

It's the striking scorpions and banshees that scare me about eldar, not their tanks and walkers.

Plethora is a good way of putting it agnosto. Any army that can take S6 missle pods, plasma that doesn't overheat, multiple long-ranged S10 AP1, and basic guns with S5 is going to be well equiped to handle stuff like Wraithlords and other MC's (I'm looking at you Tyranids).

I guess the main point is that you have to be able to use your Wraithlord flexibly. Walking up the middle or hugging cover each have their advantages against various armies. Also, if you're outmatched to begin with the wraithlord is only going to help so much.

powerclaw wrote:Plethora is a good way of putting it agnosto. Any army that can take S6 missle pods, plasma that doesn't overheat, multiple long-ranged S10 AP1, and basic guns with S5 is going to be well equiped to handle stuff like Wraithlords and other MC's (I'm looking at you Tyranids).

I guess the main point is that you have to be able to use your Wraithlord flexibly. Walking up the middle or hugging cover each have their advantages against various armies. Also, if you're outmatched to begin with the wraithlord is only going to help so much.

Missed the 3 Amigoes reference didn't you?
Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mTUmczVdik

Aren't Missile Pods basically Autocannons?

Yes, but with less range and assault type.
Not an ideal weapon vs. WL's, but it's doable if desperate and lucky at the same time.

Mr. Mayhem wrote:I've found that when taking them along with Wave Serpents, War Walkers, Fire Prisms and/or an Avatar it suddenly becomes a much harder choice for your opponent as to where to aim their big guns.

If you are taking war walkers and fire prisms, you don't have much room for wraith lords.

Half of the people I know don't even know what the other person can take for wargear. Well, sometimes I fall prey to that. But that being said a friend is working on an Eldar army and wants to include lots of wraithlords. Whta's the best way for him to employ them? Like weapon choices and such?

Ringarin wrote:Half of the people I know don't even know what the other person can take for wargear. Well, sometimes I fall prey to that. But that being said a friend is working on an Eldar army and wants to include lots of wraithlords. Whta's the best way for him to employ them? Like weapon choices and such?

Really depends on game size but:

Wraithlord - Sword (basically really small games where you'll want T:8 to cause them problems)
Wraithlord - Eldar Missile Launcher or Brightlance (if your tight on points, but need something high str)
Wraithlord - Eldar Missile Launcher and Brightlance (best option for footslogging Eldar as its the best anti armour setup)

I sometimes take one star cannon just for more ap 2 shots, but thats not really point effective.

All of the bashing on wraithlords that I have done in this thread is based on my experience using 3 of them. The difference being that I realize that using 3 wraithlords actually makes my army weaker compared to other HS choices.

However, the builds of wraithlord that I like the best are as follows:

All builds have 2x flamers
Bright Lance/Wraithsword. This guy can scare many HQs in CC, but also do something at range so he's capable of being an effective counter-attack unit.

EML/Scatter laser: this guy is the best at killing rhinos. If you're playing Eldar, you *have* to kill rhinos.

EML/Bright Lance: this guy gives you a chance against AV12+. Very expensive, but can be important.

Stealer/Warriors(/w rending claws) with toxin sacs. 4+ wounds and rending, no wraithlords are no unstoppable but do draw alot of fire away

Phish Skills wrote:Stealer/Warriors(/w rending claws) with toxin sacs. 4+ wounds and rending, no wraithlords are no unstoppable but do draw alot of fire away

That's a good point, they do serve an ancillary purpose in that they draw a great deal of fire, not unlike a greater daemon or a land raider.

The problem being that they only "draw fire" if your opponent has weapons that kill them. If your opponent is going to have a hard time killing them, the wraithlords will often get ignored in favor of targets that are more dangerous and easier to kill.

There's no value in a unit "drawing fire" if it's just going to die to it. For example, against a guard player with 9 TL lascannon in his army (not even slightly hard to accomplish), he's very likely to kill one wraithlord and maim another with a single turn's shooting. That's not a winning proposition for your wraithlords, especially if you're relying on them for your anti-tank.

I run a MC/Mech hybrid and my WLs tend to live almost the entire game. This is the list that I took to the RT at the Origins convention last year and took fist place.

It uses Eldrad and a council in a WS, the Avvy, gaurdian squads (both vairents) in 3WS, and 2 WLs w/BL+EML.

The WLs can maintain cover saves by walking behind WSs (on the shortest stand so they can still shoot over them), and don't care about wraithsight because of the Walrlock in the WS. This forces my opponent choose between firing at scoring ML+Shurican WSs, a Fortuned Avvy running at them, a Council in a WS flying at them, or WLs that have a cover save.

Usually, my opponents priority for AT fire is Council's WS>Avvy>Scoring WS>WL....sometimes the scoring WS have a greater priority to die than the Avatar depending on the opponents army and the mission;however, against everyone I have faced, the WLs are ALWAYS the lowest priority for AT fire...which lets them fire their AT weapons at will, as well as act as a counter assault unit for my shooty guardians.

So yes, in the right setup, WLs are nigh unkillable...mostly because they are still T8 3 wound models, cannot be shaken/stunned, have a cover save, and are the lowest priority for AT weapons. However, if you build a list that makes them a high priority, then they die fast.

@Alerian:

Minor note: T8, no such thing as T10 in 'normal' 40K...thank Nurgle lol.
Target Saturation is Target Saturation, and a wonderful thing it is.

It should be mentioned that Eldar and wraithlord don't synergize well either...

You can;t use your wraithlord to bail out squads stuck in combat that don;t want to be in combat...

Why? because they are fearless... So if you kill 8 guardians you will likely win combat and the wraithlord now has to take a bunch of saves.

Note: Multi charging a chump squad and a wraithlord at the same time is usually how I spike them quickly.

@ Sact
Yeah, my bad on toughness, I was thinking STR for a sec...lol I'll fix it in my original post

@deFlo
No offense, but you are wrong.

WLs work great in the right Eldar list and synergize well. Putting a WL next to a Guardian's WS works as a counter assault unit. if anyone tries to get too close to the WS, the WL can assault them so the WS can live, with it's precious cargo. Or, if the WS is destroyed in an assualt, the WL can counter assault said unit, so the guardians can flee on foot, and not be assaulted next turn. Those are just 2 uses for a WL near your troops, but there are many others....Eldar players are creative...mostly because we have to be

Also, once you have included an Avvy as a line breaker, you already have fearless units, so throwing in a couple of WLs to help counterassult doesn't hurt a bit..you just have to know how and when to use them. If you end up with 2 WLs, the Avvy, and a council in the same place....nothing that gets close will live.

Your idea about having a hybrid army is nice, but not particularly effective.

You are bringing 3 tanks to the field (some of the least cost effective 'shields' in the game) and sacrificing their strong suits, to benefit a lacking unit. WL should be able to cope w/o forcing the rest of the army to suit it's needs. Hybrid lists generally do poorly, and support units that need an entire army to work around their weakness, should not be treated as if they are special in some way.

If I were to have a list w/ 10 Missile launchers, I would just shoot your tanks, it isn't like THEY have a cover save. A ninja-lord, is 100 points flat, same as a basic WS. I would worry a lot more about what is inside those tanks, over the rather sub-par offensive damage a WL can put out.

WL are not good counter-assault units in any way. They have no FoF, no invulnerable, and only 3 wounds. They only get 3 attacks @ WS4, making them rather impotent against infantry. You can take on heavy infantry like Nobs and such, but they are bound to do an awful lot more damage in return. Ini4 just doesn't cut it for most counter-assault duties, you need to be able to stop damage from being inflicted to the squad you are protecting, before they get hit in the nuts again. Harlies are fantastic example of counter-assault units, as are Scorpions, and Shining spears (which actually have a pretty specific role).

WL are great at attacking tanks, if they can actually manage to catch them, which is really quite hard.

Wrexasaur wrote:Your idea about having a hybrid army is nice, but not particularly effective.

Well, all of my RT wins including the Origins Game Fair RT last year would disagree with you.

Also, it is 4 WS, not 3. So, 4 WS, 1 Avvy, 2 WLs. And yes...the tanks going forward DO have a cover save...hello Flat out. The whole idea is to get you to shoot at my tanks.. I already said that...thay way you just unload the council for me, so they can continue running at you alongside the avatar, while my WLs are left alone to blast your tanks...you did EXACTLY what I want my opponent to do, as I already mentioned in my post....

It is not a weakness....it is hybrid for a reason. 2/3 missions force you to guard a home objective of some type. Leaving WLs at home with Guardians safely tucked in a WS, and all the units having longe range guns is quite a firebase...with 2 weapon platforms that cannot be stunned and that can counter assault anything that gets near. Remember, the WLs always stay together...2 WLs together are vastly better than a lone WL. Meanwhile you still have vehicles, the council, and the avvy going forward.

Until you have seen my list actually play, or better yet play against it, I think you should tone down the rhetoric that it is ineffective, as history is against you. Everyone laughed at my list at Origins last year...then died horribly to it...that is part of the charm of a solid hybrid list in a good generals hands...you opponent rarely sees it and has little practice trying to beat it....EVERYONE sees Mechdar and is ready for it.

So how are your Wraith Lords getting a cover save if their shields are turboboosting 12" away from them?

The main problem right now with building a WL heavy army is... this is a bad time to be putting MCs in your army.

With a brand new tyranid codex most armies will at least be considering how to tweak things in order to kill MCs. Expect most lists to add a few more hard hitting weapons, a few more snipers, or a few more power fists. There are going to be a LOT more MCs roaming the tables now.

One of the reasons that WLs have done well the last couple years is that plopping down three WLs overstresses many armies. Especially since three WLs can fit into a fairly low point game. And not only in terms of killing power, its not too easy to play against three WLs the first few times one runs into that sort of list.

But the new Tyranid codex is going to make life harder for the WL heavy eldar lists.

Sliggoth

Alerian wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:Your idea about having a hybrid army is nice, but not particularly effective.

Well, all of my RT wins including the Origins Game Fair RT last year would disagree with you.

Also, it is 4 WS, not 3. So, 4 WS, 1 Avvy, 2 WLs. And yes...the tanks going forward DO have a cover save...hello Flat out. The whole idea is to get you to shoot at my tanks.. I already said that...thay way you just unload the council for me, so they can continue running at you alongside the avatar, while my WLs are left alone to blast your tanks...you did EXACTLY what I want my opponent to do, as I already mentioned in my post....

It is not a weakness....it is hybrid for a reason. 2/3 missions force you to guard a home objective of some type. Leaving WLs at home with Guardians safely tucked in a WS, and all the units having longe range guns is quite a firebase...with 2 weapon platforms that cannot be stunned and that can counter assault anything that gets near. Remember, the WLs always stay together...2 WLs together are vastly better than a lone WL. Meanwhile you still have vehicles, the council, and the avvy going forward.

Until you have seen my list actually play, or better yet play against it, I think you should tone down the rhetoric that it is ineffective, as history is against you. Everyone laughed at my list at Origins last year...then died horribly to it...that is part of the charm of a solid hybrid list in a good generals hands...you opponent rarely sees it and has little practice trying to beat it....EVERYONE sees Mechdar and is ready for it.

So how in the world do your wave serpents manage to get cover saves from all the massed missile fire when they are barely moving so they can provide cover for the wraith lords?

Why wouldn't your opponent just blow your 'cover' right out of the sky?

Alerian wrote:Until you have seen my list actually play, or better yet play against it, I think you should tone down the rhetoric that it is ineffective, as history is against you. Everyone laughed at my list at Origins last year...then died horribly to it...that is part of the charm of a solid hybrid list in a good generals hands...you opponent rarely sees it and has little practice trying to beat it....EVERYONE sees Mechdar and is ready for it.

Rhetoric?

I know what type of list you are talking about, and I have actually played it, and done a considerable amount of studying over it's strengths/weaknesses. It is not an effective way of playing Eldar, your WS are forced to be right in front of your WL to provide cover. Sorry, your WS cannot get a cover save while providing one to your WL, that much is just common sense.

Your Avatar will be running as much as the dice will allow him, but more than far enough to stray out of range of being fortuned. Your tanks either move 6", in unison with your WL, or your WL will not get cover.

I have certainly seen interesting hybrid lists, but your concept is not one worth pursuing. I call it the broken turtle, because it doesn't do anything besides plink shots off all game, while getting torn into pieces in turn. It is great that you did well with that style, but I really don't know why your opponents had such a hard time against it. So many armies bring close to a dozen AV weapons to most games, that I can only imagine that you were lucky enough to face rather tame forces. Lootas would absolutely love to see those WS just sitting in front of the WL. 5 rounds of shooting? Yes please!

Not sure if this is what he does, but: dance the waveserpents so that they get cover saves for moving fast and still give the WL cover. Move the serpent1 from in front of WL1 out to about 6" in front of WL2. Then move the serpent3 that was sitting in front of WL3 to a spot about 6" in front of WL1. Then move the serpent2 from in front of WL2 to about 6" in front of WL1. Then move all the WL into their new cover, 6" ahead. Or if one has trouble with estimating measurements, then just estimate the first move and move WL1 ahead next. Either way, the whole set of 3 WL and 3 serpents have moved up 6" and all have cover. This would allow the WL to move and fire...if one is going to run the WL then one would need to use the estimate maethod and place the serpents about 10" in front of the WL and hope for a run roll of 3-4".

This does give everything a cover save while moving up, while its not using the serpents speed to hit a flank it still is using the serpents speed to create cover. Not a tactic I would like to use but it might work.



Sliggoth

But that largely negates the 'SMF' save by giving your opponent roughly 3x as many turns to shoot at them before they get into an effective range to dump their payload...

There is no effective way to use the WS as shields, it really isn't a complicated problem.

4 WS can EASILY give 2 FP cover saves, while moving 12 inches, and all tanks can give themselves saves through SMF. WS are also better at shooting than WL, though they can only take one large gun. There is very little reason that giving cover saves through tanks, would make any sense at all for WL.

Pro-tip:

Take Scorpions in a WS, outflank it along with Warwalkers, and PF. Hope all come in on the same side (, good luck getting those rolls), flip the WS sideways, giving the WWs, and PF cover. Shoot scary stuff with the WWs. Alternatively, you could infiltrate everything, but that can get even messier than outflanking. If there is a nice patch of cover for the PF to hide in after your tank moves on to bigger and better things, then it can work out just fine. I wouldn't recommend tying up the WS as a shield for longer than one turn. Add Eldrad in, and you can actually do some pretty fancy maneuvering.

Not that it has anything to do with WL...

I didnt say it was a tactic I would like to use, but it could certainly be used for a turn or two to get the WL across the field. Personally I either take WL in a more elfzilla list, or usually dont take WL at all.

It certainly wouldnt be an appropriate tactic against many armies, but in a few cases it might make a lot of sense. A set up where getting the WL 1-2 turns of cover to cross the field, or against a force that fields a lot of snipers. Or if your opponent has decided to reserve most of his army, why NOT do it since there wont be much to shoot at anyway? And there would be no reason to stay wedded to the idea. Provide cover for one turn as you reposition your forces, then hit hard with the mech forces and the WL pile in the following turn.

Eldar have alot of flexibility, dont overlook a potential idea just because it may be useful only occasionally.


Sliggoth

WS can move flat out and criss-cross the table to give WL's cover behind. Also you do not need the WL's to be one inch behind the WS to receive cover. I have seen plenty of mech deployments which bunch up their units in a group. The WS would only have to block LOS from the group to the WL's behind.

I find WL's valuable. They don't stop shooting from one shot like so many ar 12 tanks do. They also can tarpit units that come close and can be effective counter charge elements when equiped with swords and run in groups of 2 or more. Every situation is different. I don't suppose they would be great to run into a 30-man termagaunt squad, that's what double hand flamers are for, they are good for running into Plague marines, TWC, Nob bikers, etc... Will they kill the whole unit? maybe, especially if combat resolution is on there side, but they will seriously damage the unit and reduce it's effective fighting strength enough for the rest of the army to easily defeat it. All for about 130pts per WL. Not a bad deal.

Sliggoth wrote:Eldar have alot of flexibility, dont overlook a potential idea just because it may be useful only occasionally.

This tactic makes them inherently INFLEXIBLE. You are tying two units together, that by their very nature are not supportive of each other. You are going to end up with a rather standard mechdar army, with WL tacked on. WW are far superior to WL in this situation, they can benefit enormously from guide, and they can be escorted through scouting, by a tank of scorpions to give them a turn of cover. WL will walk on the board, and hold your army back the entire game if you try to protect them. I really have no idea what the actual strength of a tactic like this could be. You sacrifice mobility, with your very pricey tanks, for... well, not very much in return. Maybe the WL shrug off a few shots, maybe I just annihilate your troops and call it a day.

DarthDiggler wrote:WS can move flat out and criss-cross the table to give WL's cover behind. Also you do not need the WL's to be one inch behind the WS to receive cover. I have seen plenty of mech deployments which bunch up their units in a group. The WS would only have to block LOS from the group to the WL's behind.

If you were to face down a static gunline (which are exceedingly rare to actually come across anymore), that would make perfect sense. Since you are likely to find that most armies can easily overcome TLOS, by simply moving their vehicles, a WL really does need to be right behind that tank to actually make use of it as a shield. I also want to note, again, that I would not care about the WL, and your WS would simply be putting themselves in a disadvantageous position, for the sole reason of countering a mild flaw within WL units. Don't want to take damage with your WL? I suggest not even fielding them, they are AT sponges by their very nature, but it would be awfully nice if they could have a 5++ save to boot... unfortunately they do not.

That aside, you will also find that you are going to have a really hard time shooting rhinos when you are a foot behind a WS, and the Rhino is in front of the WS. This is pretty simple stuff, you only need to know what the general sizes of the models involved. What I mean by simple, is that the simplest solution is often the best. In this case, it would be to avoid trying to be competitive, with a poorly thought out list.

I won't drag this on any longer, but the tactic in question, is inefficient, ineffective, and super fidgety. Eldar need as little complication possible. You don't need to turn your army into an advanced geometry problem, just to make an interesting army. There are plenty of alternative style lists out there, I would suggest looking into them if you are trying to play semi-competitively.

Fluffy wise... sure, the 'Eldar-that-hide-poorly' Craftworld.

Wrexasaur wrote:
If you were to face down a static gunline (which are exceedingly rare to actually come across anymore), that would make perfect sense. Since you are likely to find that most armies can easily overcome TLOS, by simply moving their vehicles, a WL really does need to be right behind that tank to actually make use of it as a shield.

Interesting. You must be playing a different version of 40k where the 18 long fangs with 15 missile launchers can move and fire inside their rhino's. My bad. The fact of the matter is the Wraithlord is a fine heavy support unit for the Eldar. It is not unbeatable and it doesn't suck. For it's points, I would say it is as good as any other Eldar heavy choice. In the end whether or not you include 1-3 WL's will be subject to your list and your playstyle. Those who think mech Eldar are the be-all-end-all of Eldar lists will boo-hoo the WL to no end. Those who think foot eldar are a viable and good eldar list, along with mech, will like the WL.

First off....only the 2 WS that move forward (sometimes 3) gain the flat out cover save.

The 1-2 WS that "stay home" with a scoring unit inside and provide cover to warithlords, move just enough to not be hit if someone outflanks/amubsh into CC with them. they have no cover save... Why? Because only and idiot would target them over the nasty units that just went flat out.

Now, if you are honestly going to shoot my WSs that sit back and give cover saves to my WLs, instead of the 2-3 coming forward, with a Seer Council embarked plus a running Avatar, then by all means, shoot away.

It is about prioirty...do you want to kill the WSs with nasty contents coming for your line, or the running Avatar, or the WLs with a 4+ cover save, or the easy targets with a few guardians inside sitting clear across the table. Please, I beg you, ignore the Council and other WSs coming forward... I like auto wins

No? You actaully want to kill the units coming at you? You want to stop the Seer Council and the Avatar before they makes mince meat out of your line? Then my WLs are content to be a firebase and kill your tanks from afar.

Again, I am not saying that WLs are the end-all-be-all for Eldar. My point is that ins a good list, with a competent general, they are indeed a very viable unit choice. You just have to make sure that your opponest has much worse things to worry about, so that they can do their job.

Again, I am not saying that WLs are the end-all-be-all for Eldar. My point is that ins a good list, with a competent general, they are indeed a very viable unit choice. You just have to make sure that your opponest has much worse things to worry about, so that they can do their job.

All I have been saying is that using WS as shield is not an effective use of such a unit. If I am shooting at your offensive WS anyways, what exactly is the point of holding half of your army back? Would it be smarter to shoot at the WL while ALL of your tanks charge me? I simply don't follow what you're trying to say.

WL are fun units, I usually run at least two in my lists. They simply have the down-side of being bad at gaining suitable cover, without becoming a detriment to your army. In your example, I would only have to shoot at two tanks, which happen to hold the most expensive part of your army. After dealing with them, you could send the next wave and continue to lose units. WL will be able to effectively deal with large tanks (due to the BL, and the tanks size), but smaller transports will be blocked from view. You are effectively giving your opponent a cover save, when your cover save will be useless because they won't be shooting at your WL.

DarthDiggler wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:
If you were to face down a static gunline (which are exceedingly rare to actually come across anymore), that would make perfect sense. Since you are likely to find that most armies can easily overcome TLOS, by simply moving their vehicles, a WL really does need to be right behind that tank to actually make use of it as a shield.

Interesting. You must be playing a different version of 40k where the 18 long fangs with 15 missile launchers can move and fire inside their rhino's. My bad. The fact of the matter is the Wraithlord is a fine heavy support unit for the Eldar. It is not unbeatable and it doesn't suck. For it's points, I would say it is as good as any other Eldar heavy choice. In the end whether or not you include 1-3 WL's will be subject to your list and your playstyle. Those who think mech Eldar are the be-all-end-all of Eldar lists will boo-hoo the WL to no end. Those who think foot eldar are a viable and good eldar list, along with mech, will like the WL.

I underlined the important part for you. Not only do many players use rhinos to place their heavy weapon squads, many armies have other vehicles that also shoot. If you decide to keep 1/2 of your tanks huddled in the corner, while the other 1/2 goes on a kamikaze mission, don't be surprised if it does not end well. There is exactly one time where it makes sense to stick a WL behind a WS, and that is during deployment. If your opponent is shooting first, you might even try to use your rather cheap WL wounds, to protect your rather expensive tanks. I am specifically talking about shielding here, as such I mentioned that WW do generally get a lot more mileage out of WS shields.

WL are tough enough to take quite a bit of firepower thrown at them, most things will have a decently hard time punching through it's T8. WWs on the other hand, are extremely fragile, and could really make use of that cover for the first turn. Losing two WL to pretty much any army on turn one, is highly improbable. 10 S8-9 weapons, of any type, will not completely wipe two WL in one round, unless you are really unlucky.10 S8-9 weapons, can easily take out 3 WL over the course of a 5 round game though. That is pretty much what the WL are there for though, to draw firepower that would otherwise be used elsewhere. Giving a WL a cover save would be awesome, if it didn't cost you an effective 100 points.

@Wrex
Obviously the strategy I listed is turn 1-2...after that the Council (and possibly the Avatar) should be knee deep into my opponents line, and he will have to deal with them ripping though is army, and not worrying about the second wave of my force, which I held back for late game objective grabbing. You obviously don't get it, which I am glad, because neither do most of my opponents until it is too late, so I am done trying to explain it to you.

@OP
It works... I have won several tourneys with it. You just have to know how to play it. It is great to win games with units that no one expects to shine...that is part of the fun in this game. Far too many people bring cookie cutter lists/units. Take the time to learn how to use WLs right and you will find them to be effective; however, poor usage will get them killed and you will be a sad Eldar.

Wraithlords are like all units, you just need to use them properly.

Yeah,i useing just give my havocs las cannons or reapers,that can easily take down a wraithlord.

Than I can easily say, oh, well here is a Leman Russ Executioner with Plasma Sponsons, bye bye havocs.

Really? We gonna sit here all day and say, "Well this can kill this." "Oh yeah? This can kill this!"

One camp wants to talk about WLs and their viability - the other why they're not worth it. One list is talking about working cover saves into the army specifically for WL's. Well, if the list is so sure they're not going to get shot at, why ensure they have a cover save?

I think the majority feels that WL's are nice, but there are better choices out there. I am certainly not one to tell someone how to play their list - I'm not buying your models and I'm not paying your way into the tournament. Play whatever you want. However, I am one to give an opinion when it is asked, which is what has happened here.

Are Wraithlords "unstoppable killing machines?" No. Not at all - they have their weaknesses just like any other unit.

Are Wraithlords completely useless? No. Not at all - they have their strengths just like any other unit.

It's all about the list and the general playing them. If the person has a list built around their WL's, then so be it. I have some surprise lists myself that I like to pull out: Asurmen and Eldrad with a unit of Avengers turbo-boosting with a unit of Dragons on their flank, both Wave Serpents Fortuned. A whole throng of people might tell me that it's a bad list and that it won't work - but I've seen it work. It works really well, actually. It's the same thing here. The above poster (Alerian?) swears up and down that his list works. And it might. Others might find a better way to spend that 100-140 points.

Me, I prefer Reapers, especially with an Exarch with Crack Shot. 12 shots, Str. 5 AP3. 10 of them hit on 3's, the other 2 hit on 2's. And the Exarch's shots get to reroll to-wound and ignore cover. From 48" away? Yes please. Goodbye snipers, ork bikers, or anything with 3+ armor that is trying to take advantage of cover.

Let me put this into perspective w/o any talk of lists or personal preferences. If people want to talk about how easy it is to kill WLs, then we need to look at the math, and compare it to the only other "durable" heavy choices available to the Eldar.

Since the WL is T8, ANY hit that would cause a single wound on a WL, would also cause either a glance or pen on ANY Eldar tank, barring STR 5 shots.

If a STR 6 shot would wound a WL (6s required), then it would glance a Prism/Falcon. At the bare minimum the tank is not shooting this round; the WL still is.

If a STR 7 shot would wound a WL (5+ required), then it would either glance a Prism on a 5 or Pen on a 6. Now there is a greater chance of real dmg to the tank, while the WL still only loses one wound...and the tank still cannot fire, in addtion to possible other issues.

If a Str 8 shot would wound a WL (4+ required), then it would glance a Prism on 4, and pen on 5+....even worse news for the Prism, while the WL still only loses one wound.

Str 9 and 10 are far worse against a Prism/Falcon as they only need a 3 or 2 to glance and a 4 or 3 to pen, while again the WL only loses one wound.


Now, before anyone mentions longfangs again, or any other unit that has multiple longe range AT shots, remember that any unit that can burn down a WL in a single turn (causing 3 unsaved wounds) would also be putting at least 3 glances or pens on a Prism or Falcon...so talking aobut such units negating the WL are pointless, because they negate tanks just as easy as WLs.

Yes, the Prism and Falcon can both tank shock (24" tank shocks are a HUGE advantage), and the Falcon can also transport troops, yet another advantage. However, as an AT shooting platform, both tanks pale in comparison to the WL, because ANY shot that could wound a WL (again barring S5 weapons) WILL silence the guns on the tanks.

Simply put the WL can take far more firepower than either tank, while maintaining the ability to fire.

If you want a sturdy longe range gun platform that can fire every turn, you will be hard pressed to find a better choice than the WL; the math doesnt lie. However, if you want the ability to tank shock and manuever, you would be better off with a Prism/Falcon. Both types of heavies are good choices, depending on what you need them to do.

That really puts everything into perspective, that's true maths doesn't lie, that just means that it is some target priority (no not the 4th ed. rule) for the enemy of the Eldar.
What would you choose, quite possibly bring down a heavy grav tank, or slightly hurt a wraithlord?.

Well, the math does lie, a little bit. You didn't take into account saves. Cover saves for these tanks are very important - and, I would say, are a large part of the metagame for them. If you shake my Prism/Falcon, that means I can't shoot. Well, I can still burst 24" next turn rather than just sitting there. Even if I burst 19", I still get a 4" cover save. Now, the next round of shooting may simply bounce off completely while the WL loses another wound.

However, your point is still valid. I would just rather take a Falcon with Holo-Fields and Spirit Stones with a Bright Lance, a Pulse Laser and Shuriken Cannon (Guided) with a bit of troop/fire dragon payload in it than I would a WL with one less weapon, travelling more slowly with very little chance of a save and the rare time or two where he's out of range of a Farseer/Warlock and shuts down. I won't say that I've never used them - one of my WL's helped my brother place first in a team tournament for General (while losing best overall ), but I don't really use them unless I have 140 points lying around and I'm not quite sure what to do with it.

I dind't mention turboboosting saves, because if you boost, you don't shoot; the WL still does. WL is an unstunnable/unshakeable AT firepower unit (and BS4 to boot) that you can build a strong firebase around; the tanks are not.

Instead, the tanks are about maneuverability and speed, with a loss of firepower in order to either gain flat out saves or utilize longe range tank shocks.

Yes, the tanks can go flat out and become very hard to destroy, but every turn they do that, the WLs could be firing at enemy tanks, turning them into slag. Then again, a WL will never transport troops or tank shock anyone off an objective

Depending on your list and purpose for your heavies, there are reasons to take either tanks or WLs. That was my point.

One of the problems with the "you can't stun a wraithlord" idea is that it's pretty damned easy to kill a WL in one turn.

A single vendetta has an OK chance to do it.

Yup, and a Vendetta that slows down long enough to put three Twin-Linked Lascannons and two Heavy Bolters on a Wraithlord has made itself vulnerable.

Speaking of, what is the "OK chance"?

3 shots with Lascannons at 4+ to hit re-rolled, and 3+ to wound is 2.25 wounds.

6 shots with Heavy Bolters at 4+ to hit, 6 to wound, and 2- to fail saves is 0.51 wounds.

Together that's 2.76 wounds, which is pretty decent considering that the Wraithlord only has W3.

But if the vendetta destroys a wraithlord that the eldar player is relying on for long-range anti-vehicle, then it is not vulnerable any more.

Realistically you're probably looking at 2 vendettas per dead wraithlord, reliably, but since the wraithlords do not have similar reliability at taking down the vendettas you're looking at a losing battle for the wraithlords for sure.

Mind you, that's just against Vendettas, which are probably the most efficient way to kill wraithlords in the game, but are also by no means the only way to kill wraithlords.

My point is, wraithlords often die pretty easily, and without having to dedicate all that much of your army to do so, which is to the detriment of the Eldar player.

2 vendettas vs. a wraithlord is 260pts vs. 130pts. Of course the vendettas should do better. It's seems silly to compare what twice as many points is going to do vs a wraithlord. How about a 10-man guardian squad with brightlance in cover vs. a vendetta. I don't think the vendetta stand a good chance vs. them and their points are almost the same.

Comparing units in a vacuum is not a good way to look at it as they rarely face off against each other without a whole army backing them up.

willydstyle wrote:One of the problems with the "you can't stun a wraithlord" idea is that it's pretty damned easy to kill a WL in one turn.

A single vendetta has an OK chance to do it.

Again with multiple shot units?

As I already pointed out with math, any unit that can kill a single WL in one turn will ALSO put 3 glances/pens on a Prism or Falcon, it takes the exact same rolls (barring S5). Unless that heavy tank went flat out to get a cover save,and therefore is already not shooting, then the same vendetta that would kill a WL in one turn (all 3 shots wound) would also put a serious hurt on the tank. Even if the Prism/Falcon went flat out and got a 4+ save, the tank would still take 1.5 glance/pens (so it still could be destroyed), and it will not be shooting for a second straight turn, at the bare minimum.

The vendetta is actually a greater threat to the tanks than the WLs...especially since Vends can outflank to get easy rear armor shots.

Nurglitch wrote:Yup, and a Vendetta that slows down long enough to put three Twin-Linked Lascannons and two Heavy Bolters on a Wraithlord has made itself vulnerable.

Speaking of, what is the "OK chance"?

3 shots with Lascannons at 4+ to hit re-rolled, and 3+ to wound is 2.25 wounds.

6 shots with Heavy Bolters at 4+ to hit, 6 to wound, and 2- to fail saves is 0.51 wounds.

Together that's 2.76 wounds, which is pretty decent considering that the Wraithlord only has W3.

I think it's more like 1.5 wound for the 3 lascannons and 0.16 wounds for the heavy bolters.

No, Nurglitch is entirely correct.

The downside to using a Vendetta, is that it will be putting itself in a vulnerable situation to attempt to take down a WL. In order to actually kill it in one turn, you are going to need good rolls, not average. As noted before, you will need two Vendies to drop a WL per turn. Not to say that it makes much sense to dedicate that much of your army to take down one WL per turn.

If the Vendie does not roll well, then that WL is going to turn around and shoot right back at it. With a full AT setup (BL/EML), the WL can reliably stop it from shooting the second turn.

WL are unique units, that can serve two primary rolls, while soaking up a considerate amount of damage. AT is how I prefer to use them, but Sword-lords en masse are pretty fun to scare certain armies with. 300 points of a 2000 point army, is a great way to distract much of your enemies firepower cheaply. As soon as you include WS in a list with WL, the WL will no longer be the center of attention, and the WS will be priority targets.

It is important to note, that it is not all that hard to avoid losing tanks in the first round. Part of this is the fact that you can flat-out, and reduce damage intake, by 50% all around. This is the strength of mechanized, the weakness is in it's target saturation. Footslogging units make target priority slightly more tricky, although targets are generally easier to kill. Tanks will allow around two rounds of shooting from an opponent, before allowing their cargo to step out and do damage. WL will allow the entire game of shooting, and there isn't all that much that can be done about it.

6 of one, half a dozen of the other really. Tanks do even worse against PK/PF, than a WL does, even though it is ten times easier to get that assault in on a WL.

2 vendettas is not a large portion of a guard army, and can take own the WL from 48" away, outside of the vulnerable range of most Eldar units.

Wrexasaur wrote:No, Nurglitch is entirely correct.

Why?
I'm thinking:
3 TL BS3 shots is 3x(0,5+(0,5x0,5))=2,25 hits
2,25x0,75= 1,5ish wounds.
What am I doing wrong?

Vendies with cargo, are going to cost around 200+ points each. That is 400 points, aimed at a maximum of 155 points.

I would much prefer to take out a WS w/ cargo (200+ points each), if I were to dedicate that much firepower to any unit. 6 LC shots, stand a pretty good chance of taking out that WS, especially if it has no cover save that turn. You would also be stopping two units at once, and chances are that you are going to have opportunities to take shots against a troop-laden WS.

I would rarely put a unit inside of a vendetta, as it gives your opponent easier target-priority choices.

Which comes back to the whole target priority.
If they opponent wants it dead, it's not hard.
It's up to the Eldar player to present more juicier (but defended) WS to make it a tough decisions of who to go for.

There are many ways to kill them indeed,due to the fact that they don't have an invulnerable save,but the thing is,they dont charge on their own,you hide them back and cover your troops,like guardians,until they get into position
Then you move them up as distractions so your guardians wont get shot at
This works just like those storm troopers in movies,"sector clear!"then move on
If you are lucky,one might actually get to do something in close combat!

Nivoglibina wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:No, Nurglitch is entirely correct.

Why?
I'm thinking:
3 TL BS3 shots is 3x(0,5+(0,5x0,5))=2,25 hits
2,25x0,75= 1,5ish wounds.
What am I doing wrong?

My bad, my math was completely off, and I had to head out for a bit.

You and DarthDiggler are correct on your mathhammer, 1.5 wounds per turn is right.

Well I suppose, in theory this is all well and good, so is mathhammer, but it doesn't take into account luck or army composition, so I am gonna say, yak yak yak all you want.

Really? All this mathhammer simply corroborates my games with wraithlords vs. well-build lists. I run an Eldar army with 3 wraithlords, and I am quite aware of their abilities and shortcomings.

Wraithlords die against well-built lists, and they don't really take that much to take them down.

TH/SS terminators eat them alive.

Well...the WL is doing its job then for accepting the charge from the Termies, dying, and allowing everything else to move away/shoot them

I would also invite that very expensive squad of Assault termies to wail on my WL. They will drop the WL with professional ease, then get shot into little tiny pieces, by my concentrated firepower.

Krellnus wrote:Well I suppose, in theory this is all well and good, so is mathhammer, but it doesn't take into account luck or army composition, so I am gonna say, yak yak yak all you want.

You trollin'...

Tactics in the tactics forum are bad... or something... If you had contributed something besides, "Y'all be yakkin!", it wouldn't have been troll status.